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Sunday, 2 Apr 2006
OK, so Jill- On the way to the states and Hijab free- just released a statement disavowing everything she said on the video of the Iraqi Islamic party and on the propaganda video released by the Mujahedeen. If anything, she attacked them both for using her for their political and propaganda purposes.
During my last night in captivity, my captors forced me to
participate in a propaganda video. They told me they would let me go if
I cooperated. I was living in a threatening environment, under their
control, and wanted to go home alive. I agreed.Things that I was forced to say while captive are now being taken by
some as an accurate reflection of my personal views. They are not. The
people who kidnapped me and murdered Alan Enwiya are criminals, at
best. They robbed Alan of his life and devastated his family. They put
me, my family and my friends–and all those around the world, who have
prayed so fervently for my release–through a horrific experience. I
was, and remain, deeply angry with the people who did this.I also gave a TV interview to the Iraqi Islamic Party shortly after
my release. The party had promised me the interview would never be
aired on television, and broke their word. At any rate, fearing
retribution from my captors, I did not speak freely. Out of fear I said
I wasn't threatened. In fact, I was threatened many times.Also, at least two false statements about me have been widely aired:
That I refused to travel and cooperate with the US military and that I
refused to discuss my captivity with US officials. Again, neither is
true.
Phew. She is not another Susanne Osthoff, and I will not have to do that whole thing I said I would do if another journalist there got kidnapped. Thank you god. I am thankful that I didn't jump to conclusions and waited till she was free to say whatever she had to say without the threat of death on her. If I gave the impression that I doubted her, and I did have my doubts, then I am glad to have been WRONG on that one. Hell, I am more than glad. I am ecstatic to have been wrong on that one. I can't wait till she tells her story, and I am dying for her to get interviewed on one of the arabic channels and have her expose those Jihady fuckheads for the murderers they are.
April 2nd, 2006 at 9:13 am
Thank you Jill..
April 2nd, 2006 at 9:28 am
How could anyone ever have been mistaken ?
That repetitious, declarative (male) arabic syntax, was so obviously NOT the language of a young, female American journo. Just look at the fake “American” correspondence on Al-Jazeera and you will see square metres of the same tripe. The audience for this stuff is not in the West, it is Islamic - and that is really why they so much dislike free speech and verifiable sources. Shout it loud, repeat it ten times and it becomes a fact. However effectively the Jill Carroll tale is debunked, it will be gleefully replayed for years in the wonderful world of Islam - together with “evidence” from her many detractors who howled derision at the time!
April 2nd, 2006 at 9:47 am
I feel like such a fool. She is obviously a good person and I can’t believe I thought she was a jihadist sympathizer!
April 2nd, 2006 at 9:56 am
One thing tho
i didn’t like the fact she “released” a statment thru her publisher
she should have had the courtsey to hold a decent press conference and done it herself
the words praising her kidnappers came directly from her mouth
and so should have the words blasting them !
April 2nd, 2006 at 10:07 am
Maxxed`ouT Says:
“i didn’t like the fact she “released” a statment thru her publisher
she should have had the courtsey to hold a decent press conference”
I think if you’d been held captive in constant fear of your life for that length of time, in apalling conditions … you also might have needed some time to compose yourself !
April 2nd, 2006 at 10:20 am
it’s just less credible this way u dun think ?
i mean .. she could have pushed her self to do it
sthg to go “in the official record” ya know
now the world has a video of her praising them … but not even a voice recording of her blasting them !
April 2nd, 2006 at 10:21 am
Get real
April 2nd, 2006 at 10:28 am
haha
i am
i totally stand by my argument !
i think she owes it to all of those who have been crying in grief for her .. sending out prayers .. campaigning for her release .. or even from what i read taking personal risks to make her freedom possible
and then were shocked and disappointed by her initial statments
April 2nd, 2006 at 11:43 am
Maxxed, I think if she does that it would be great, but I doubt she will go as far. Maybe someone else will interview her and she will then tell it like it is, and you will have your video recording.
April 2nd, 2006 at 12:15 pm
Give her a break, Maxxed ouT. She has just been released from a horrifying ordeal.
April 2nd, 2006 at 12:15 pm
Thank goodness.
April 2nd, 2006 at 12:21 pm
And besides, aren’t you a little impatient. Honestly, reading some of the sentiments expressed in comments on my favourite blogs, I’m beginning to think there are a vast, vast number of people who really don’t think there is a tomorrow. Jill Carroll will do the round of talk shows and newscast interviews. Just wait and see. There will be plenty of video footage.
April 2nd, 2006 at 1:05 pm
Good call SM.
April 2nd, 2006 at 1:41 pm
You’re glad you waited before jumping to conclusions, eh? If you had really waited, you wouldn’t have repeated the accusations, you would have encouraged other people to chill out and stop saying such inflammatory, hurtful and cruel things. But instead, you *threatened* Jill Carroll that if she didn’t say something you agreed with, you’d do such-and-such. Not much better than her videotape-making kidnappers, IMHO. I still think you owe her an apology.
And some of your readers/commenters, whose statements were *totally* out of line, owe her an even bigger apology. Shame. You know who you are.
April 2nd, 2006 at 1:50 pm
But instead, you *threatened* Jill Carroll that if she didn’t say something you agreed with, you’d do such-and-such. Not much better than her videotape-making kidnappers, IMHO.
Yes, because me saying that I will not join another “release the kidnapped journalist” campaign is the same as holding a gun to jill and threatening to kill her. Riiight!
Your moral clarity is amazing!
April 2nd, 2006 at 1:52 pm
I’m not impatient
A week from now no-one will click on a link that says “Jill Carol this or that … ”
A week from now if she makes a statement herself Sandmonkey won’t link it in here
Media is a starving whore
You pay your fee , you have your 15 mins , then u move along … there’s always another customer behind u in the line !
April 2nd, 2006 at 1:57 pm
Admit it. You owe her an apology. You can choke those words out, can’t you?
April 2nd, 2006 at 2:03 pm
Oh yeah. You wrote:
“I will do a “Thank-god-another-idiot-is-down” sandmonkey dance, and actively demand, advocate and call for their execution by the terrorists…”
Ahem.
April 2nd, 2006 at 2:09 pm
hmmm
ya
i wanna see the dance too
you hop on one leg round and round in eccentric circles while spanking ur red monkey ass with one hand and holding a ” all my monkey love to Jill ” banner with the other
April 2nd, 2006 at 2:12 pm
onlooker
You are in serious danger of disappearing up your own exhaust.
April 2nd, 2006 at 2:20 pm
I’ll give u guys an example to backup my theory
remember the debate we had here few days ago about the French law and the riots ? … if my memory serves me well we had 50+ comments psoted
last Friday the French parliament passed the law and it landed on the lap of Chirac who had to approve it
Chirac decided as a compromise to calm down down the public to cut down the trial period from 2 years to 1 .
Did Sandmonkey post a link about that ? …. as far as i know the answer is No
i’m guessing it had its 15 minutes
it was no longer “Hot Stuff ! ”
If Jill Carroll has sthg to say , may she step up now .. or shut up forever !
April 2nd, 2006 at 2:23 pm
Onlooker, I don’t owe anyone anything. And as for thr quote you mentioned, read the sentence before it. But sure, take things out of context, why don’t you?
Maxxed out, re the dance: LOLOLOLOLOL!
April 2nd, 2006 at 2:31 pm
Maxxed`ouT
You’re getting a bit oof-topic anyway
April 2nd, 2006 at 2:32 pm
Sandmonkey, the point of quoting your words was to illustrate that your words were a bit stronger than simply “I won’t join any more free-the-journalists campaigns.” Which they were.
I don’t know why you can’t just apologize for maligning her character and jumping on the bandwagon to add to the emotional distress that her family have already suffered. This is not snark. Jill is my friend, and I have spent every one of the 82 days that she was in captivity wishing and hoping for her to be free. She is a good person with a good soul, and she deserves better than what you and certain soulless commenters dished out to her. It is hurtful and cruel, and you were wrong, and you should ALL apologize. It might be all abstract stuff to you, but it’s not to me, and it’s not to Jill or the people who care about her.
April 2nd, 2006 at 2:39 pm
onlooker
You are seriously misunderstanding what SM and many others have said.
You really need to go back a few steps and reread everything.
Things are NOT AT ALL as you seem to believe.
April 2nd, 2006 at 2:45 pm
Go back yourself and read some of the comments attached to the earlier entries. I am misunderstanding nothing. It is appalling.
A *few* people (very few) have said they were wrong, but not enough, and nobody has said, “Jill, I apologize.”
April 2nd, 2006 at 2:50 pm
onlooker
I for one, when the news of the video in captivity fiirst broke, said on this forum (March 31st, 2006 at 8:21 am)
“Do you really think that sounds like Jill Carroll’s own balanced reply ???
‘Cos I don’t ! ”
You really are generalising in a quite offensive way and wanting to see malice where there is none.
April 2nd, 2006 at 3:07 pm
There was malice, plenty of malice. It did not come from you. You were the main voice arguing that perhaps, just perhaps, Jill was making statements under duress that might not actually reflect her own views. I never saw SM making those arguments, just you and one or two others.
I also saw these comments, which I will not repeat here, because they are so hurtful.
Chip
Jon
Jack
Tommi atkins
hormel Chilli
Jack again
Chad was one of several who thought it was Stockholm Syndrome, not a video made under duress
Gary indicates that he’d like her to get killed
so did K2
Chip is back with a charming theory
Alabama Watch has more of the same
… and so on.
Yes, your voice was one of the reasonable ones. SM’s voice was very quiet, I would even say silent, while these heartless individuals were using his blog to spread their venom and slander my friend.
Yes, I think he should apologize to her.
April 2nd, 2006 at 3:08 pm
Oh, so now SM, you’re moderating my comments. Right, I forgot, you’re such the advocate of free speech.
April 2nd, 2006 at 3:20 pm
Hey - I’m not SM I’m Sean Shalor.
He’s rich and Egyptian, I’m skint and English and there are probably a lot more differences besides.
I’m just taking issue with some of the things you are saying.
OK ?
April 2nd, 2006 at 3:24 pm
No, Sean, I was talking to the Sandmonkey. I replied to your comment, including links to some of the earlier comments that I felt were examples of the malice on this site, and I have a message that the comment is being moderated. I doubt you can see it. I don’t know why one comment would be moderated and the second one not.
At any rate, my response to you, Sean, was that your voice was one of the few arguing that the videos of Jill should not be given credence, and I thank you for that. It would have been nice if SM had made such strenuous arguments, but other than one post saying he was “reserving judgement,” he did not.
April 2nd, 2006 at 3:26 pm
This is what I said about Jill
Any condemnation from her against the terrorists? Guess not, huh? It’s okay as long as she’s not hurt. It’s okay if her interpreter’s wife was widowed. She’s basically praising her kidnappers. Fool.
I thought the interview was made after her release and when she was in safety. I am wrong on all counts, and I apologize to Jill Carroll.
April 2nd, 2006 at 3:27 pm
Jonas:
Thank you.
April 2nd, 2006 at 3:38 pm
onlooker
OK fair enough.
This has all got rather far from the original topic heading.
I’d agree that some folk came to a hasty conclusion but that’s not so unusal - relentless pursuit is perhaps rather more likely to encourage them to seek some justification than to change their pitch.
How about a genereal amnesty all round and a gentle reminder that the real enemy is more sinister than a few folks who may have misjudged Jill Carroll.
April 2nd, 2006 at 3:38 pm
The fact is that SM owes Jill an apology. His comments were immature and premature. You have not been taken out of context - you are out of step with reality when you threatened personal attacks against Jill based off of statements she made in or shortly after her captivity.
You don’t think before you blog most of the time. This is just the latest example.
Bad monkey
April 2nd, 2006 at 3:45 pm
Anon
Enjoy a temporary falling out with Sandmonkey but never forget that he’s on the same side as Jill Carroll and - depending upon who and where you are, he’s probably the best friend you’ve got.
There are very few folks in the ME who understand the West as he does and who regularly go out on a limb to support us from with a potentially dangerous and hostile environment.
April 2nd, 2006 at 3:50 pm
Sean — Fair comment re: relentless pursuit, and I’m willing to allow that there’s not much we can do to stop some people from leaping before looking. But I’m not willing to amnesty anyone who called for Jill to be killed, and there were several of them here.
Anon — I agree that SM still owes her an apology.
SM — Since I’m still able to post other comments, I’m now assuming that my moderated comment is the result of some kind of anti-spam feature triggered by my links to other comments, so I hereby retract my freedom-of-speech remark.
April 2nd, 2006 at 3:55 pm
Please Sean….spare us the drama.
No one is saying that the monkey is on one side or the other…..this is typical of the black-and-white Bush group think that prevails in the US these days. What is wrong with you people? Always thinking in us-versus-them terms.
All I’m saying….in this instance involving Jill Carroll, he f***ed up. No worries, he should say his apology to my friend Jill and we’ll all move on. Instead, he is acting like a cry baby - “I don’t owe anytbody anything” - its sounds like a teenager acting out.
Shame on all those that rushed judgement (even “without passing judgement” as SM did) on Jill.
April 2nd, 2006 at 4:03 pm
My hat is off to Jonas for his apologies. I think it would be nice as well to see an apology from SM too, but the people who really need to apologize are the right-wing haters that, as soon as she was released, began to bash her.
Read Dr. Strangelove’s “Morning in America” post for samples
http://www.docstrangelove.com/2006/03/31/morning-in-america/
In fact, I remember at least one discussion while she was in custody where several of the participants were claiming that the whole thing was a hoax set up by her.
I’ll again warn those of you who seriously believe in freedom, including freedom of speech, of the press, and of and from religion, and who think that the Malkins, the Schussells, the Pipes,’ the Carlsons and the other right wingers will be there for you when you need them…
Don’t count on it. They’ll support you just as long as you agree with them.
April 2nd, 2006 at 4:12 pm
Anon
What is wrong with you people? Always thinking in us-versus-them terms.
You guessed me wrong - I’m not in that group.
However - Sandmonkey did not make the statement that you are all crediting him with either.
In his first post on the subject, he said:
“I am willing to say that she said what she said because she had a gun to her head, and had to say whatever was necessary to get out. I will give her a break to collect her thoughts, relax and figure her stuff out, and see what she has to say.”
He then went on to deliver a CONDITIONAL statement about how he would feel if what he had just said was NOT the case.
I think you all need to read and see the distinction.
April 2nd, 2006 at 4:12 pm
I think Sean Shalor is right on about this whole thing being intended for a Muslim audience. That’s a big reason these people choose to kidnap civilians. It’s a very effective psychological operation.
Maxxed’ouT, you’re right about Jill’s comments not having the far reaching effects of her original ones. Her captors know this. It’s like printing a tiny retraction in a newspaper after first printing a false, eye-catching headline…who reads the retractions? There’s not a whole lot Jill could do at this point; the damage is done. I’m just glad she came home alive. Al hamdulillah.
onlooker, I understand this is personal for you, but it’s not for Sandmonkey. I think he’s just fed up with the awful pattern of westerners defending the indefensible. And what’s more, you can think someone is classless and boorish and even hate his guts, but you can’t *demand* and apology from anyone. You can’t force him to be sorry. He already said he wasn’t; what more can you do? I guess you could boycott Egyptian goods…
April 2nd, 2006 at 4:14 pm
As I said, she knows how to play to an audience. Carroll carefull didn’t disclaim the statements I criticized yesterday. Those are the typically biased leftist talking points shared by nearly every reporter in Iraq, opinions held before they ever arrived in Iraq.
She thought by opposing the war and having sympathy for the jihadis she’d be safe reporting without being embedded.
Her idiocy got her translator killed and herself captured. I’ll bet a ten spot she goes on to be another Cindy Sheehan, but slightly more mentally fit.
April 2nd, 2006 at 4:31 pm
I think with the addition of a few more entirely different flames, this is bordering on the extremely silly so I’ll bid yo’all goodnight.
April 2nd, 2006 at 5:05 pm
Wow Chip,
Why don’t you ask Sam for his aunts phonenumber, I’m sure you too could have a nice little natter about what is “really going on in the world”
April 2nd, 2006 at 6:03 pm
Dear onlooker,
Let’s make one thing clear. You are Jill’s personal friend, thus you knew her personally. I am not, and I didn’t. However, I did join the campaign for her release and did everything that the people who were managing it asked me to do, and that’s because I wanted her to be free and I didn’t want her harmed in any way. I may have not shared your agonizing 82 day ordeal as her personal friend, but I am one of the people who has cared about her ordeal and her well being. If You see the post where she is freed, you will notice how initially ecstatic I was that she was released unharmed. That made me really happy, because she sounded like a good person guided by her idealism and I didn’t want any harm coming her way.
Keeping that in mind, imagine how I felt like when the first thing she says when she was released that the kidnappers treated her ok, and then right after that you see that other video where she is praising them. To say that my blood boiled would be an understatement. I couldn’t handle her being a victim of Stockholm syndrome especially after her translater was murderd in front of her eyes. Notice that at this point there has been a huge history of people- journalists- who were kidnapped and came out praising their kidnappers. I honestly could not handle another one of them, especially if it was Jill, simply because of how involved I was and how sucked in I was in her ordeal. Shit, If you knew Natasha then ask her, I asked about Jill constantly. I cared, and this is why when those 2 videos showed up they felt like a huge kick in the nuts. They felt personally insulting. I was very angry.
However, the voice in the back of my mind wouldn’t allow me to discount her or give her the benefit of the doubt, which is why when I posted her jihady propaganda video, I said no comment. And given the kind of comments that were being posted, I decided to do the follow up post, the withholding judgment one. If you read it, you will that I simply said, that I know that she was under their guns when she made the second video and wasn’t still in the clear when she made the first, so I am going to take what she said with a grain of salt and wait till she arrived to the US and see what she says then , and then I will judge her statements. I said that in the case she actually meant them, then I am sorry, but I would do those things I said I would do. If she meant them they would’ve been a slap in the face of the highest regard, and I am sorry, but for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. She would be the straw that broke this sandmonkey’s back, and I wasn’t going to play nice anymore. That being said, notice that it was an “If this is the case..” scenario. I didn’t say or even imply that this is the case. I just had my doubts, and I had 2 videos that were enough to make anyone who didn’t know her to jump to conclusions. That is all.
This is why when she issued her statement, I expressed relief, admitted that I had my doubts and that those doubts were proven wrong, and that I am quite happy that they were proven wrong AND THAT I WAS WRONG. Hell, I even boldened it. And this is why I am not understanding your demand for an apology from me or your claims that I maligned her character. I did nothing to apologize for, and I didn’t call her any names or tarnished her reputation in any way. I didn’t malign her character or jump on any bandwagon. I just mentioned what she did, and actually went out of my way not respond to my anger at her statement and lash out at her. But you kinda know this, and you even showed it in that comment that got moderated. Here it is:
SM’s voice was very quiet, I would even say silent, while these heartless individuals were using his blog to spread their venom and slander my friend.
Or here:
It would have been nice if SM had made such strenuous arguments, but other than one post saying he was “reserving judgement,” he did not.
Your beef is not with me Onlooker. You are not mad at me for what I’ve said, you are mad at me for what other people who left comments here said. You are mad at me for staying silent while others bashed her. I didn’t malign her character, and nothing that I personally said could’ve caused her family distress, so you are barking at the wrong tree. And I am sorry, but I can’t apologize for what other people said in their comments. I didn’t make them, not my place or my problem. And if my words were strong or angry, that’s because, like, that’s who I am. I am the ranting Sandmonkey. I rant. It’s what I do. What? You were never here before?
Listen onlooker, get mad at the people who called her name, get mad at the people who made inappropriate remarks at her, and demand apologies from them. I would support your right to and agree with you. But don’t come to me for one, cause I have done and said nothing wrong. I bet it’s nice to direct your anger at me, but youa re definitely barking at the wrong tree.
Anon, you said:
The fact is that SM owes Jill an apology. His comments were immature and premature. You have not been taken out of context - you are out of step with reality when you threatened personal attacks against Jill based off of statements she made in or shortly after her captivity.
I threatened personal attacks? Where and when exactly did I do that? Can you even find it?
And I am the one out of step with reality? Dude, you are imagining things.
April 2nd, 2006 at 6:15 pm
Maxxed ouT, the vast majority of people do not read blogs, but they do watch CNN and ABC and NBC, etc., etc. and their programs are beamed all over the world. Besides that, this woman is a journalist, and they do know how to get a story out. Moreover, you are the one who referred to video and voice recordings, now you are backtracking.
I do agree with you, though, that a whole bunch of folks, even the Great Sandmonkey, jumped to conclusions way too soon.
April 2nd, 2006 at 6:55 pm
Sam,
You admitted you moderated onlooker’s post, so what I would like to know is, have you at any time moderated (censure) what I post on your blog? If you have, just let me know and I’ll stop coming here.
April 2nd, 2006 at 7:00 pm
Jonas,
wordpress has an anti spam measure, that automatically deferrs any comment that has more than 2 active links in them to prevent spam. It did that by itself, onlooker even knows that, and when I found her comment I approved it and it’s on now. I think if you have been following my blog for as long as you havem you would notice that I don’t censor people, especially people who critcize me.
April 2nd, 2006 at 7:22 pm
Cool, thanks for the explanation.
April 2nd, 2006 at 8:16 pm
Maybe the people who need to apologize most are the KIDNAPPERS who Took Jill, killed her translator, and forced her to make statements to make them look better.
just a thought.
April 2nd, 2006 at 8:19 pm
SM, I’ve been reading your blog for quite a while, and I’ve seen you tell commenters that they’re full of shit before. But when several people came here and posted comments to the effect that Jill had staged her own kidnapping and should be killed, you were silent. I’m willing to acknowledge that you *did* say you were wrong, but you also implied that your reaction *would* have been appropriate if Jill had been suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. And it wouldn’t have been.
I think you misunderstand Stockholm Syndrome. Even if Jill *had* it, it would be no excuse for the kind of virulent response she received here, and the even-worse responses she got elsewhere. There’s a *reason* why hostages develop those bonds with their captors — it’s a survival mechanism, not a character flaw. When you have no control over anything that happens to you and know that the people who *do* control you could kill you at any moment, your mind will do whatever it needs to do to deal with that situation. Everyone’s situation is different. Everyone responds differently.
Until Jill has had a chance to recover from her ordeal, until she has had a chance to get some counseling, or at *least* until she’s had the chance to spend some time with her family and process what happened to her, everyone should understand that her responses are *all* colored by the trauma of what she’s experienced.
She *should*not*be*expected* to come out guns blazing and making all kinds of statements about things that happened while she was cut off from the world and being threatened with death. Anything beyond, “I”m OK, I’m relieved to be able to be with my family” is more than we have the right to ask of her.
Jill spent three months with kidnappers who threatened her and told her what to say on videotapes. When she was released, can you imagine how awful it must have felt to have people (like you) expecting her to say certain *different* things — without even giving her a chance to hug her sister or kiss her mom first? She’s cut loose on the streets of Baghdad after three months and has to immediately make the “correct” political statements to make everyone on the Internet happy?
It’s just brutal, the whole thing. The death threats (from her “supporters”!) and allegations that she staged her own kidnapping were the worst, but it also cannot be pleasant to emerge from your ordeal and find the whole world *expecting* something from you… it makes me literally feel nauseated.
Everyone, just give her a break. She’s a human being, who’s been through hell. I don’t want to hear her say anything. I don’t think anyone has the right to ask her to say anything.
April 2nd, 2006 at 8:40 pm
Everyone, just give her a break. She’s a human being, who’s been through hell. I don’t want to hear her say anything. I don’t think anyone has the right to ask her to say anything.
I gotta agree with this. She’s home. She has the freedom of speech ,but she also has the freedom to remain silent if she chooses. That was one of the rights taken away from her in captivity when she was forced to speak.
I for one think she has the right to not speak for a while.
April 2nd, 2006 at 8:58 pm
Onlooker, I think that you are a good friend to Jill to defend her. And I know that even when I hear ten good things about a friend, it’s the one bad thing that ruins my day. But I hope you realize that all the mean comments aren’t really about Jill: they’re about the war in Iraq and whether it is worth the lives of all the Americans, British and Iraquis who have been killed because of it.
People really really really need to believe that the Iraqi insurgents are very wicked and can be defeated because otherwise their sons, daughters and friends have thrown their lives away for a wrong or unwinnable cause. Jill’s release came soon after the CPT rescue and the short-sighted, inadequate and possibly smug statement by a CPT spokesman (not the hostages) that infuriated the American public. Because of the attitude of the CPT, the public was unfortunately all too ready to believe the unharmed Jill believed what she said on those videos.
I was horrified when I saw on the front pages of the papers when Jill was kidnapped and was terrried that bad things would happen to her, even though I am a stranger to her. And I was stunned and delighted when I heard she had been let go. I am happy for you and her other friends and family. But as so many Americans have lost their loved ones in Iraq, it will be a comfort to them if this American woman tells her nation–one that prayed for her–her story.
One last thing: sandmonkey is still in the middle east and is still running a risk every time he posts here. His job seems to be to create freedom of speech, not curb it.
April 2nd, 2006 at 9:18 pm
Well, they will only say: She is being forced into saying the opposite now. I mean, of course the US & the Jooz are now holding a gun to her head… but what she said before was REALLY the truth!
I want to see the entire interview just to see if she tried to do the “Hawaiian Good Luck Sign” or anything unusual while she was messing with her hijab. I think that’s one thing everyone should be trained in before they go into a situation like that — if you’re kidnapped, what’s the “secret sign”? Jeremiah Denton blinked in morse code, etc. Of course, I don’t think they could pull the Hawaiian stuff over on anybody anymore… the world’s gotten too small.
April 3rd, 2006 at 3:33 am
Onlooker;
your post.. “There’s a *reason* why hostages develop those bonds with their captors — it’s a survival mechanism, not a character flaw. ”
hmmm i wonder if Senator John McCain understands it wasn’t his character, but his lack of understanding of “survival mechanism”.. ( for those who do not know McCain he was a POW in Vietnam.. refused early release which he could have gotten with his rank and connections, and endured 5 years of horrific torture, but did not break, would not do the propaganda type video).. hmmm survival mechanism or character ???
You also might wanna consider how poorly the Italian that was beheaded did not understand this “survival mechanism” when even though blindfolded and bound he fought the beheaders till the end saying “this is how an Italian dies” , on the other hand the Korean who begged, pleaded, and cried till the end understood this “survival mechanism” which in the end was no help..
The fact is Jill did what Jill felt she had to do to survive, what will be interesting is to see what she says/ does now..
April 3rd, 2006 at 7:22 am
Dug,
I don’t really understand your point, or your hostility toward me. I also said “Everyone’s situation is different. Everyone responds differently.”
If you read this, you’ll find that John McCain, who is quoted in the story, agrees with me.
Nobody should be second-guessing Jill. Leave. Her. Alone.
April 3rd, 2006 at 9:05 am
Onlooker,
Again, you are blaming me for what others have said or for being silent. I can’t apologize for what they said because I am not really responsible for it, and if I start, it will never end. It’s for that same reason I usually ignore crazy comments left by people. There is no logical response to a comment that said Jill must’ve been raped repeatdly and therefore is in love with her captors. I just ignore it. I usually don’t ignore people who do try to argue with me logically or have a valid argument. Yours is one, the “Jill was gangbanged by Habib” isn’t.
Anyway…
Your points regarding the stockholm syndrom are valid, and you are right that I should’ve urged more calm than I originally did. And if you truly believe that after 3 months of championing her release and caring about her that a few comments left by people I have no control over have distressed her and her family and loved ones and are blamed upon me, then I guess I am sorry that they feel this way. I didn’t mean to hurt anyone by it, and when I head to DC as I am doing at the end of this month, I will look up Natasha and will have her call Jill, and I will tell her the whole story and apologize to her personally on the phone. I figure that would be much better than an apology on a blog, and more personal, given that you are implying that I personally offended or distressed her.
That being said, I would’ve loved to see you defending her on the comments section of my No comments post and explain things the way you did here. That would’ve been good, given that you had the isnider persepective that so many of us lacked at the time. Instead you chose to wait until she recalled those statements and everything was clear, and then came in demanding apologies. You didn’t stick up to her when she was attacked either, and you chose to critisize everyone when it was safe to do so. Hell, you could’ve even dropped me an e-mail saying your point of view and that I am rushing to judgment or that I am being too silent and I would’ve then responded. You chose not to, and it’s not only you, Natasha also dropped mentioning the videos or the statements and dissappeared for that day until Jill released her statement and then came out gun blazing. You guys have the inside scoop, we didn’t, so it was you who should’ve said something then. Just saying.
April 3rd, 2006 at 11:47 am
Onlooker
You really need to get over yourself. No-one here owes Jill an apology at all, the only people that do are the kidnappers themselves. People are entitled to their opinions, especially on blogs, without having to worry about peoples feelings. I dont feel much sympathy for her at all - if you dont want to be kidnapped by nutters, then DONT GO TO IRAQ. simple really. Its not as if there is a shortage of journalists out there, seems to me that she wanted to be part of the news, rather than just reporting on it. Just an opinion and no, I wont apologise for it.
April 3rd, 2006 at 1:03 pm
Hi SM,
I suspect we could keep going round in circles about this, but it’s not getting either of us anywhere.
I think it’s very ironic that so many people are outraged that I would “demand” apologies *for* Jill, while they had no problem demanding apologies and retractions *from* her for statements she made under threat of death.
As for why I didn’t defend Jill earlier, I was offline for the weekend and didn’t see your blog till I came into the office on Sunday. Honestly, if I’d known what utter nonsense was circulating around in normally somewhat-rational corners of the Internet such as this one, I would certainly have logged on to say something. But honestly, it was just *inconceivable* to me that anyone with half a shred of common sense would have taken those videos as serious indications of Jill’s real feelings, given that one was clearly made while she was still a captive, and the other one so quickly after her release that she hadn’t yet left the office of the IIP, where she was obviously still vulnerable.
And nobody should plead ignorance on the circumstances in which those videos were made — stories about them were published on Friday here and here — which was, incidentally, the same day as your earlier “is-she-a-jihady-maybe-maybe-not” posts on this topic, and two days before THIS post.
She should have been left alone. The IIP should not have forced her to make that interview, and should not have broken its promise not to air it. The rest of the world should have had half a shred of common sense.
April 3rd, 2006 at 1:08 pm
Onlooker;
I made no disparaging remarks about Jill .. I said ..”The fact is Jill did what Jill felt she had to do to survive, what will be interesting is to see what she says/ does now.. ”
You think my post was hostile to you.. perhaps because that is how you have been posting.. I merely pointed out that your comment about survival mechanism vs character was BS,,
As for McCain of course he would say that .. he said essentially what i said that she did what SHE felt she HAD to do..
Now why so hostile to me??
dug
April 3rd, 2006 at 1:33 pm
She should have been left alone. The IIP should not have forced her to make that interview, and should not have broken its promise not to air it. The rest of the world should have had half a shred of common sense.
Onlooker, in agreement!
April 3rd, 2006 at 2:52 pm
Jill Carroll, a journalist who goes to Iraq to tell the terrorists side of the struggle, should expect a great deal of criticism for her pro-terrorists comments. She starts ther project biased in favor of the bad guys and has done nothing to change her views.
Jill should have made a statement, clarifying her position, at the first opportunity. Failure to do so forces people to draw their own conclusions. Her publisher reading ‘her’ statement changes nothing and people still draw their own conclusions. As a journalist she should know that, more so than anyone.
April 3rd, 2006 at 3:09 pm
With all the demand for apologies and what not, I decided to read up on Jill Carroll and her views. If the content of this article about Jill Carroll is true, then I will happily retract my apology for calling her a fool.
I hope I am wrong and the article is wrong, too….
April 3rd, 2006 at 6:34 pm
Suspicion (FURTHER UPDATED)
UPDATE IX: The London Telegraph attacks the right wing Blogosphere in a major way….Embittered’, the ever hateful and bitter Mahablog, who cannot string two words together without spitting out venom, who calls me “ever-brainless” and a “dimwitt”
June 1st, 2006 at 5:52 am
i think you all want to hear the ‘juicy’ details of her captivity. Obviosly she was treated poorly, any person with a heart could see that inher eyes as she pleaded for her live in the videos! I didnt believe for one second that she was being honest in the release video- it was pretty obvios that she was doing what she had to do to survive. Nobody can say what they would or would not do- or how they would handle the situation that she was in. She doesnt owe us anything, she doesnt owe us a press conference!