![](”http://static.flickr.com/44/116364022_14e11279b9_o.jpg")
Friday, 14 Apr 2006
Here we go again. One week before the egyptian good friday, but on the rest of the christian world's good friday, attacks on 3 egyptian churches were made by 3 knife and sword wielding muslim men . 1 christian worshipper was killed, 17 injured and 2 of which are in serious conditions:
Police said they had arrested three men in the attacks in the northern Mediterranean city.
One
was said to have attacked two churches; one assaulted a third church;
and the other was arrested during a foiled attack on a fourth churchOne worshipper was killed and at least two others were in serious condition after the attacks, the official said.
Initial
police reports said a total of 17 people were injured: 10 at the Saints
Church in downtown Alexandria and three at the nearby Mar Girgis
Church. Four worshippers were wounded at a church in Abu Qir, a few
miles to the east.Police said a fourth attack was foiled by an officer guarding another church in Egypt's second-largest city.
Ok, there is something extremely fishy here. The Official story from the police says that the guy who attacked the two churches is mentaly unstable- like they always say when such an attack happens- but that was until the second and third guy were arrested and the thrid and fourth attacks were carried through. The fishy part is in regard to the church security. Chruches in Egypt are always protected by the police. There is always a police car and at least 4-5 policemen protecting it. Are you trying to tell me that this mentally unstable guy managed to go in the first church and attacked 11 people by his lonesome, and then managed to get out without being attacked by the security outside, and then managed to go inside a second church and attack 3 more people? All of those people and 2 infiltration, done by one guy holding a knife? Are you kidding me? I am supposed to believe this?
There must've been a bigger attack. More people must've gotten involved, and the police is just trying to save face. This is not the first time this has happend, especially in Alexandria. Remember the last October attacks, where a nun and a man got stabbed infront of that same Mar Gerges church ? Remember the 5000 muslims attacking that same church a week later ? Remember the other attacks that followed them ? This is NOT an isolated incident, nor is it that surprising. This is Islamism at its best. Time to kill us some christian Kaffarah. Egypt as a 100% Islamic state. Wohooooooooooo!
Naturally, the forces of clear thinking that reside in the AlArabeya comments section refuse to blame this on egyptian muslims or the islamists . The whole thing is fileld with comments of the like "I refsue to believe those guys are muslims", "Those are people who are hired by foreign forces to create secterian strife" , "This is an american ploy to use the context of protecting christians to invade and divide Egypt", blah blah blah. I am waiting for someone to blame the Jews personally.
Hundreds of Christians gathered in protest after the attacks, and witnesses said
clashes erupted between Christians and Muslims in the Sidi Bishr
neighborhood, near Saints Church.Father
Augustinos, who leads a different Mar Girgis Church, said the attacks
occurred just after Mass began at 9 a.m. (0700 GMT)."We
are trying to calm the situation after many of our youth started
protesting," Father Augustinos said. "We are telling them to calm down.
It doesn't do any good for the country to make protests."We
want to live in peace and tranquility but these are people who had
their family members killed or wounded," he said. "We are doing our
best."
BP once told me that a civil war in Egypt is inevtiable and he is kind of right. There are 3 middle-eastern countries with signifcant christian minorities in them: Sudan, Lebanon, and Egypt. Out of those 3, 2 already had a civil war between the christians and the muslims. It's simply Egypt's turn is all.
God help us all!
Update: We now have slightly more information on what exactly happend:
"The attacker stormed the church armed with a knife and shouted 'There
is no God but Allah' and 'Allah is the greatest' before stabbing the
worshippers," one of the Mar Girgis church employees told an AFP
reporter on the scene."We closed the doors of the church as soon as he started attacking the
worshippers and we fought back with sticks but he tried to flee through
one of the church's underground passages," said the witness, who asked
to be named only as Ibrahim.An hour after the incident, a mass was being held to appease the
neighbourhood's shocked Coptic worshippers. Security forces sealed off
the areas where the attacks took place and set up checkpoints across
the Mediterranean city.
We have the name of the guy who died:
Friday's victim, Noshi Atta Girgis, died of his wounds in hospital, a
medical source said. He was among at least three people attacked at the
Al-Quidissin church east of Alexandria.
And the christians seem to be at their wits end
In front of the Mar Girgis church, a distressed woman called for the attacks to be avenged.
"They will see. Do they think we're cowards? They will see that we have
the means to defend ourselves," she shouted, as several other
worshippers were in a state of hysteria."We cannot enter their mosques and kill them, yet they can come to our
churches and kill us without any problem. Where are the police and the
government? Do they think our blood is cheaper than theirs?," cried
another woman, Nadia Lofti."The people who do this want us all to convert to Islam. We are a
minority and the government should give us more protection," she added.
As if the government cares, Lady? The only reason why they make any kind of right noises is because of the US copts and their constnat lobbying of the US government to pressure the egyptian one to protect you. Otherwise, ehh, it wouldn't have matterd at all, even if all 17 died! Just the way it is!
April 14th, 2006 at 2:45 pm
i agree with both of you s.m & b.p.
there are no ’saterday people’ so ’sunday people’ will have to do. it does not matter how long the ‘dhimmi’ have lived there eather.
Just look at what was done to the Kurds & Armeanians if I was a Copt I would get out I expect it to get much worse.
This is all part of the ‘jihadist’ war. Just as Irans saber rattling and nuke program. same war different fronts
April 14th, 2006 at 2:49 pm
Well then. The muslim forums should be an interesting read for the next couple of days.
Those Copts where probably in the churches oppressing muslims. How dare they!?
This is unfolding faster than I figured it would. Dang! Thought I’d be dead before it got nasty.
Hold on Mickey, here we go.
April 14th, 2006 at 2:56 pm
And the so-called moderate muslims will brush this off as unrepresentative of their religion. I wonder, is there a magical number of non-muslim deaths before they will change their mind? Give us something to hope for here. What’s that number?
April 14th, 2006 at 3:07 pm
Those Christians better shut their mouths or get armed and dangerous. Talking about getting armed and dangerous will be viewed as a provocation and a reason for more anti-kufr violence. Islam is to “subdue and never be subdued.” Egyptian Christians should know that better than anyone.
April 14th, 2006 at 3:12 pm
On Al Arabeya they identify the perpetrators …
“It is the golden fingers of who hate us”
You just can’t go wrong if you’re Muslim
April 14th, 2006 at 3:48 pm
Wow.
It’s real nice to start my morning by checking your blog and reading this story. There’s really not much more I can say about these, almost frequent, sectarian incidents except that I want to cry when I hear about these stories. These incidents seem to be happening with more and more frequency and it’s awfully disconcerting.
You mention a future civil war SM in Egypt. Oh God, please don’t let this happen. That is probably what these terrorists want. What will happen to the 10-14 million pacifist Christians in Egypt versus the 60 million muslims…I’ll tell you, annihilation, that’s what.
But, ya know what? There is a tipping point. One can only take so much! Life cannot go on like this for Christians in Egypt. It’s going from bad to unbearable. The whole country is becoming totally Islamacized with more and more fundemantalists running around. And there is no relief in sight because the GOVERNMENT IS ABSOLUTELY COMPLICIT IN EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THESE SECTARIAN INCIDENTS. The government couldn’t care less about protecting its muslim citizens let alone their christian ones. But there’s a breaking point, I’m tellin’ you. And I’ll tell ya what, I swear it, my brother and I will be on the first flight to Egypt if anything like that ever happens!!!!
LEAVE US THE FUCK ALONE!!!!!!!!!!!! LIKE THAT LADY SAID, WE DON’T GO TO YOUR MOSQUES AND HARM YOU, DO WE???? CAN’T YOU LET US WORSHIP IN PEACE???? LEAVE US THE FUCK ALONE ALREADY!!!
April 14th, 2006 at 3:52 pm
I made my comment to this in your other post “Talk among yourselves” — when I wrote it this post wasn’t up. I’ll suggest that people read my two comments there.
April 14th, 2006 at 4:13 pm
“there are 3 middle-eastern countries with signifcant christian minorities in them: Sudan, Lebanon, and Egypt”
Acrtually, they are 4. You forgot Syria, which has around 2 million christians (10% of the population). The only reason sectarianism is not an issue currently in Syria is because Syria’s government brutally imposes a secular system (because the government is from the Alawite minority, and if left to express their views freely, most Sunni muslim “sheikhs” would consider the Alawites heretics). That’s why you’ll find that many christians in Syria are in full support of the Asad regime - if it falls, they’re probably screwed.
April 14th, 2006 at 4:24 pm
Jonas, good man, do you want to know what that number is in Egypt? I would venture to say after 10-14 million NON-MUSLIM deaths…then maybe Egypt and the world will realize the violent oppression that’s going on in “moderate” Egypt.
lol. “moderate” Egypt. lol.
April 14th, 2006 at 4:25 pm
This is disgusting and repulsive. When will it all end? I used to want my fellow Copts to just sit there and take it in Egypt cuz I really thought it wasn’t that bad. My experience has been limited to that of the Egyptian upper class. I hope civil war doesnt happen. WE;d die
April 14th, 2006 at 4:29 pm
I know this isn’t supposed to be a funny post, SM, but some of your comments cracked me up! Especially,
“Naturally, the forces of clear thinking that reside in the AlArabeya…”
and
“I am waiting for someone to blame the Jews personally.”
Thanks for lightening it up a little!
April 14th, 2006 at 4:30 pm
Retaliation and/or civil war, is the aim of the islamist arses-of-dogs and sons-of-the-devil… dont go there, join the rest of the world in fighting these religious fuck-ups with the spread og human rights and democracy!
April 14th, 2006 at 4:36 pm
In about 5 years you’re going to see a lot of ME’ers (the non-Muslims) thinking a lot differently about Israel, when they’re begging to emigrate there.
April 14th, 2006 at 5:02 pm
Sandmonkey , I want to draw your attention that the attacjs that were done in October were a response to a play that was done on the prophet as much i remember. I was abroad and i heared about it ..and everyone was talking about it ad it wasn’t in a form of attack as much as it was a sort or revolution ! anywaysI am not defending that , whatever the reason was even if the act was uncceptable because there could be better means where people can make a peaceful claim. But it is not like we hear about such things everday , it is not that common after all from both sides at all ElhamdALlah thanks God.
April 14th, 2006 at 5:04 pm
It’s hard being a christian in the ME nowadays, especially Egypt. They’re caught between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand, the bible taught them to not retaliate. If they retaliate by killing muslims, could they still call themselves followers of christ? On the other hand, if they don’t retaliate, they put their lives in danger. Their faith or their life? I wouldn’t want to make that decision.
April 14th, 2006 at 5:22 pm
I’m no longer certain we can avoid a clash of civilizations. By indulging the radicals in our universities, press, and government we’ve emboldened the head-choppers. When the only options are kill a lot of people now, or kill millions later, the choice must still be made.
The Iraqis understand mosques are the headquarters of their enemies. But we here in the West still don’t get it.
It’s one of those days. Maybe tomorrow I’ll find something funny to talk about. That’s what keeps me sane and peaceful.
April 14th, 2006 at 5:29 pm
Pictures say a million words.
http://freecopts.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=79&Itemid=9
April 14th, 2006 at 5:30 pm
If they retaliate by killing muslims, could they still call themselves followers of christ?
“Turn the other cheek” doesn’t mean stand there and get your ass kicked. I find it hard to believe Jesus was a moron. Jesus hung around with a diverse group of people, including the Sicarii.
I’m positive whatever was meant by “Turn the other cheek” has been misinterpreted, causing some blindingly stupid actions by Christians down through the ages.
On the other hand, Egyptian Christians trying to fight Egyptian Muslims is suicide. Which is why this war looks to be going even more global than it already has. For all the rhetoric and bluster about America or the West being aggressive, you haven’t seen anything yet.
It always takes years, and many defeats, for free nations or people to summon the will to defend themselves. We’d rather be doing just about anything else.
April 14th, 2006 at 5:34 pm
It strikes me there must be a critical mass of mainstream indifference in Egypt and elsewhere for such things to happen to non-muslims. While I don’t blame the moderate muslims, do they openly object to non-muslims having less priviledges (and protection) in their countries? As clearly shown 60 years ago in Europe, all it takes is some fear and indifference for the unthinkable to happen.
Too many people demand respect in our world, but perhaps the first step is to extend that respect to those different than you.
April 14th, 2006 at 6:08 pm
Noshi Atta Girgis — Next Martyr of Our Time” ,……
has been killed only because HE was a Christian.
http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2006/02/poland-introduces-martyrs-of-our-time.html
April 14th, 2006 at 6:14 pm
“Turn the other cheek” doesn’t mean stand there and get your ass kicked. I find it hard to believe Jesus was a moron. Jesus hung around with a diverse group of people, including the Sicarii.
No, it doesn’t mean to stand there and get the tard beat out of you, but it does mean to not retaliate. Another verse puts it this way:
April 14th, 2006 at 6:18 pm
It says in the above verse that christians’ battle is not against muslims in a physical confrontation. The battle that christians must wage is against principalities and spiritual forces. In other words, christians are not to fight the muslims, but rather fight their ideologies. It is spiritual warfare, not physical warfare.
April 14th, 2006 at 6:35 pm
I think Jonas is absolutely right.
April 14th, 2006 at 6:42 pm
We’ll see if this story gets out in the western media … haven’t seen it yet.
The only way to battle these cockroaches is to shine a light under their rocks.
April 14th, 2006 at 7:08 pm
“…christians are not to fight the muslims, but rather fight their ideologies. It is spiritual warfare, not physical warfare.”
A common problem I see is how one should define “spritual warfare”. Where does “spiritual” end, and warfare begin? All too often it finds some destructive, physical manifestation. And why do Christians need to fight ideologies at all? I’m struck by how many Christians should first fight against their own ignorance and enculturated “christian” ideologies. And I am a Christian.
Not to mention, I’d guess many Muslims view christian “spiritual warfare” as a direct threat on their beliefs and way of life; they don’t understand the “spiritual” or abstract side to the conflict. How many ME Muslims are given the freedom to explore their faith in a critical/abstract way? I’m just suggesting both side may misunderstand each other from their own limitations.
April 14th, 2006 at 7:08 pm
Alexandria Churches Attacked
Worshippers attacked at 3 Egyptian churches - 1 dead, 17 wounded by knife-wielding assailants CAIRO, Egypt - Worshippers at three Christian churches came under attack from knife-wielding assailants during Mass Friday. Police said one worshipper was kil…
April 14th, 2006 at 7:27 pm
And why do Christians need to fight ideologies at all?
Is this rhetorical or do you really not know the answer to this question?
April 14th, 2006 at 9:01 pm
Right, prepare yourselves for this….I’m a Muslim and for a chance, I’m NOT going to blame the Jews for this disgusting, murderous incident perpetuated by lunatics on crack brainwashed by governments blinded by self-righteousness.
I have a new idea….let’s blame the media. That’s right, let’s blame the damn journalists that were absent during the “Objectivity vs. Subjectivity in Reporting the News 101″ class. Because if they were doing their jobs, the news report on this would clearly say “The knife-wielding men CLAIMING TO BE MUSLIMS, etc.” instead of just calling them Muslims.
And let’s blame out corrupt governments that allow this shit to go down and probably initiated in the first place. I vote for executing those bastards because I am so sick of defending my religion instead of learning more about it and enjoying it.
I don’t know if this will make much of a difference, but I apologize to every Christian on this, their holy day, and during this, their holy month, on the behalf of every Muslim who denounces terrorism for what it truly is. The rest of you, claiming you’re Muslim, come find me and let’s take this outside.
April 14th, 2006 at 9:18 pm
in egypt it’s a matter of fact what ur religion is…it’s right there on ur id and that’s what the media mean when they say muslim or christian. they aren’t going to inquire into the extent of their belief.
7aga khara sa7ee7. it’s for these reasons i don’t wear a cross when i am in egypt.
April 14th, 2006 at 9:21 pm
oh and sandmonkey, not all churches are police protected. in fact i’ve never seen one that was (maybe cos i hang out in well heeled neighbourhoods). maybe these ones weren’t.
April 14th, 2006 at 9:33 pm
I live in Alex and I’m a copt. But even though I’m not religious and I’m secular, I still feel bad for all this. My mom or dad or another family member could have been there.
Who do we blame this time ?
The cartoons this time or the economy or the CIA ?
April 14th, 2006 at 9:35 pm
Sandmonkey, small correction: this is not Good Friday. Good Friday is the following one.
April 14th, 2006 at 9:35 pm
To Hal (9:01):
“I don’t know if this will make much of a difference”
Well, I can tell you it does: we need reason, not blindness when it comes to dealing with extremists!
Cheers!
April 14th, 2006 at 10:40 pm
Read it again, Mmmmmmm.
April 14th, 2006 at 10:45 pm
Sorry, I shortchanged you by two “m“s. Perhaps we can make that your nickname.
April 15th, 2006 at 12:34 am
And why do Christians need to fight ideologies at all?
Is this rhetorical or do you really not know the answer to this question?
Sure, why ask any question when we already have all the answers?
Sorry, but I don’t have to pretend to know your “correct” answer.
I’m sick of ideological conflicts, and those who pursue them for “their faith.”
Far too many people of all religions trying to impose their “correct” view on others: just look at what it’s accomplished. I’m done with fighting people over any pet ideology.
April 15th, 2006 at 1:30 am
What are we dealing with in the world today, Pete? Pet ideology? Sorry, you’re wrong, it’s just common sense. Either you get it or you don’t.
When an ideology drives some muslim men to decapitate christian school girls as they were walking to schools, that ideology is evil and must be confronted.. When an ideology drives a nation to hang women for adultery and stone homosexuals, that ideology is evil and must be confronted. When an ideology allows it’s adherents to treat women like second class citizens and as walking vaginas, that ideology is evil and must be confronted. When an ideology influences muslims to commit suicide bombings and go to heaven to have celestial orgies with 70 virigins, that ideology is evil and must be confronted.
Like I said, this is all common sense, Pete. You’re sick of ideological conflicts? Then put your head in the sand.
April 15th, 2006 at 2:01 am
Sorry, you’re wrong, it’s just common sense. Either you get it or you don’t.
This is what every side maintains in any conflict: their asinine simplicity is superior to the others. Wonderful…points not understood are labeled as “wrong.” Oh sure, we can focus on Muslim cultural problems as some sort of “war of ideologies”. Meanwhile, my original point was conveniently forgotten: many Christians have this unhealthy habit of focusing on “bad people”, “wrong ideologies” other than themselves, as if it’s their battle to stick their nose in everyone’s business. I’m sick of this arrogance that suggests “christians” must confront this “evil” abroad, while they take the focus off themselves and their own behavior. The problems are deeper than some mere ideological solution bestowed from above by the “true faith”. Arrogance is “evil” too, so spare me your condescension and get your own head out of the sand. Hypocrite!
April 15th, 2006 at 3:08 am
SM,
Militant Islamists are using in Egypt the same tactics they’re employing in Iraq. They hit the economy & they hit political stability by trying to instigate civil war. In Iraq they target reconstruction efforts to prevent economic progress & they hit Shia targets to in the hope of provoking a backlash that will lead to sectarian warfare.
In Egypt, they have a long history of attacks against tourism in Egypt with the Sharm ElSheikh bombings being the latest. And lately they’ve started singling out Christians with pretty much the same aims as in Iraq.
In both cases, the aim is to make the government look ineffectual & create a failed state - the type of state they function best in.
I used to be pretty optimistic about Egypt. Islamist attacks were much more frequent & organized in the 80’s & yet Egyptian society managed to stay together. I can remember a time when people I know would be very nervous if they had to visit Egypt because there were always bombings & shootings & other terrorist attacks always in the news. But then that seemed to have passed.
April 15th, 2006 at 3:32 am
It’s not the economy anymore …..
If you want to cure a disease - you need information
If you want to overcome an obstacle - you need information
If you want to build a civilization - you need to educate the populace … all of them
If you want to become a martyr - be an ignorant dumbass and appeal to the uneducated. You will assure yourself of nothing but death and a legacy of oblivion. Who, but the relatives, remember the names of the lost ‘bombers’?
Hell of a legacy.
I know, I know, I’m dismounting right now with apologies ….
Hell of a thing to strive for.
Crappy reason to die.
April 15th, 2006 at 3:46 am
Oh sure, we can focus on Muslim cultural problems as some sort of “war of ideologies”. Meanwhile, my original point was conveniently forgotten: many Christians have this unhealthy habit of focusing on “bad people”, “wrong ideologies” other than themselves, as if it’s their battle to stick their nose in everyone’s business.
Do you see any christians going around beheading unbelievers? Do you see them stoning gays and hanging women for alleged adultery or otherwise? Do you see them trying to stir up chaos and attempting to commit mass genocide to bring back an imaginary holy figure? Do you see them storming into mosques and stabbing muslims? Nobody says christians don’t have their own problems as well, but those flaws are miniscule compared to what muslim groups are trying to do. Your moral equivalence stinks to high heaven. If more people like you existed sixty years ago, hitler would have succeeded in wiping out the jews, because after all, christians should have just focused on their petty differences instead of stopping a madman hell bent on committing euthanasia. That was the case back then, and it is the case today. While your fellow brothers and sisters in christ are dying at the hands of islamists just because of their christian faith, people like you prefer to see no evil, hear no evil. *spit*
April 15th, 2006 at 3:53 am
well loulou, in the 90’s the regime undertook a massive crackdown and jailed everyone who ever spoke to the cousin of someone with a beard, and for a while it was quiet. striking tourism deeply affects the egyptian economy and so the govt does something about it…but christians? they’re local. and contrary to popular egyptian belief, don’t bring in any more money than other egyptians. so it doesn’t matter.
April 15th, 2006 at 3:56 am
SM–thanks for giving this issue some much needed publicity. It receives surprisingly little press here in the US. Nor do American Protestants seem particularly interested in the plight of Christians in the Middle East. Perhaps evangelicals don’t consider them to be “real” Christians. I just don’t know. As an American Orthodox Christian, this unconcern baffles me. And of course it is not just the Copts—there is the plight of the Palestinian Christians, the beleaguered Chaldean Catholic and Assyrian Orthodox Christians in Iraq, as well as the few remaining Syrian and Greek Orthodox in Turkey. The enmity against them is hard to figure—they’ve lived under Islam for centuries; it’s not like there is any danger of them “taking over” or anything. Nor are they recent converts from Western evangelical proselytizing—these communities have been in place since the beginning of the faith and predate Islam by centuries. That is the tragedy. But perhaps therein also lies the bone of contention.
April 15th, 2006 at 4:12 am
“The knife-wielding men CLAIMING TO BE MUSLIMS, etc.”
Other Muslims distancing themselves from act of violence after act of violence is no longer convincing. Demanding people respect Islam when murderer after murderer screams “Allahu Akbar” while killing civilians beats all the capital letters in the world. You can add exclamation points and it still doesn’t change the fact a huge number of clerics teach this violence and the Muslim community does nothing, supports it, or cooks up crazy conspiracy theories to explain it.
When real reformers speak out they’re labeled apostates and have to go into hiding. You can’t fool everyone forever. Pointing out Timothy McVeigh (not a Christian), the IRA, the Crusades, or Israel are getting even older.
Either Islam finds a way to end the violence carried out by Qur’an quoting killers or expect kufr opinion to drop from negative to dangerous.
I realize not every Muslim is a terrorist or violent. But as an American I’m used to everything America does being used against me when I’m online. Islam demands special treatment in every situation, from satire to murder.
I’ve read the Qur’an. I’ve studied hadith and the sunna. More and more people in the West are becoming educated. The usual excuses won’t fly much longer.
April 15th, 2006 at 4:27 am
This is all part of the jihad against the non muslims in the same way that the islmo fascist just declared war on Israel. Every day I become more pessimistic as I see war clouds on the horizan ones that make the Iraq war look like a police action.
April 15th, 2006 at 4:35 am
22 jonas
It is spiritual warfare, not physical warfare.
Seems like a lot of casualties for spirituality. Quoting scripture to knife-wielding jihadys is your strategy? Good luck with that.
If you’re saying retaliation against any Muslim is wrong, I agree. But self-defense or attacking those who teach this aggression are the only reasonable solutions to those who would kill you for your beliefs. If I were president no Ayatollah, mullah, or imam teaching violence against non-Muslims would be safe anywhere. Religion is no excuse for conspiracy to commit murder. If that means JDAM’s on mosques, oh well. It’s not like Islam shows respect to any other religion, unless the dhimma is observed, and not even then in many cases.
Once again, I’m speaking generally, but not as generally as the mob bosses who claim to be “clerics” in Islam. Threaten me once, shame on you. Now I’d be an idiot to trust just any Muslim.
April 15th, 2006 at 6:07 am
forsoothsayer,
“but christians? they’re local. and contrary to popular egyptian belief, don’t bring in any more money than other egyptians. so it doesn’t matter.”
If that’s the government’s attitude then it’s despicable. It’s also stupid that they can’t see how this sort of thing reflects on them. A government which can’t protect its people can’t hope to have much authority over them for very long.
April 15th, 2006 at 6:14 am
Chip,
Quoting scripture to knife-wielding jihadys is your strategy? Good luck with that.
No, that’s not my strategy at all. I’m just saying any christian who take their faith seriously will have a very hard time in resisting the temptation to fight the jihadys and kill them..
April 15th, 2006 at 6:14 am
If more people like you existed sixty years ago, hitler would have succeeded in wiping out the jews, because after all, christians should have just focused on their petty differences instead of stopping a madman hell bent on committing euthanasia.
“spit”
Charming, civilized ad hominem, it really bolsters your argument: insult is much easier than understanding. But maybe that’s you’re point,? Go away and fight your “holy war” against your own demons; spare me your ugliness.
April 15th, 2006 at 6:19 am
*spit*
There ya go: ugly fools and their religion.
History repeats itself.
As someone once said to Bible thumpers:
http://tinyurl.com/o8m6x
April 15th, 2006 at 6:54 am
Take away the “spit” and my argument against you still stands, pete. Don’t side track the issue.
April 15th, 2006 at 6:56 am
jonas,I agree it’s spiritual warfare that underlies the events in the physical world,but unregenerate people cannot comprehend this.They see only the results,not the reality behind them.Our weapons are mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds,including,I suppose,the stronghold of religious ideologies.
I think pete has a point about christians though.Many are arrogant and hypocritical,and tend to give simplistic answers to complicated problems rather than loving their neighbors (including muslims) as themselves.The fastest way to turn someone off is by saying “I am right,” rather than “God is right.”
April 15th, 2006 at 6:59 am
There ya go: ugly fools and their religion.
History repeats itself.
As someone once said to Bible thumpers:
Vitaly,
If the only thing you can comment on is one word “spit” out of every point I laid out, then that just shows how weak your commentary is.
April 15th, 2006 at 7:09 am
Dan
I think pete has a point about christians though.Many are arrogant and hypocritical,
If you look at the world today, you will see that arrogant and hypocritical christians do not cause them to go attack muslims in mosques or subways or skyscrapers. Would you rather deal with genocidal muslims first or would you rather deal with arrogant and hypocritical christians? If you say the latter, then we should just ignore ahmadinejad and all the muslim clerics who call for america’s destruction, (as we have been doing with regard to the clerics).
April 15th, 2006 at 8:18 am
In Sudan we had our war that lasted 21 freaking years… The war has now stopped thank God… I think it’s just about time that another one or at least for isolated incidents to start… Even though the war has stopped A LOT of HATRED still exists between the Southerners and Northerners… Good to luck to Egypt! It’s going to be an uphill battle against those extremists but worries me is the scars that will be left after that… It’s the scars that can revive old problems and bring them back again!
April 15th, 2006 at 8:31 am
No protests?!
Theres apparently NO HONOUR in islam, and no honour towards prophet Muhammad, from his followers - the silent sheeps of death!
Explain to me, how this religion is not evil - I cannot see it!?!
April 15th, 2006 at 12:32 pm
OK… So lets find the Imam or whatever that put this poison in the minds of these idiots and charge him as an accomplice in this atrocity. Yeah… like that’s going to happen.
April 15th, 2006 at 12:41 pm
Girl N Curt from Houston,
Look around at some blogs and then come back and talk about Islam being evil… Do u think this blog or many ones out there support what happened? Don’t label a whole religion evil just because of the actions or the inactions of a group of people. Many Muslims are against what happened… they don’t have to go out and protest just to show it… so stop stereotyping… blame the freaking governments and the damn dictatorships and also the mentality of Muslims but please not the faith itself…
April 15th, 2006 at 12:46 pm
“Chruches in Egypt are always protected by the police. There is always a police car and at least 4-5 policemen protecting it.”
Are we all feeling the peace that is Islam today? In the US, no such protection is necessary to keep rabid Christians from murdering Muslims. What the hell is wrong with these people?
You guys just have to get a grip. The tin foil hat conspiracy theories have to stop! I’m sure that these guys were convinced by their local “religious leader” that Christians were corrupting their precious bodily fluids or something.
This kind of insanity is almost exclusive to Muslims. Sure, you have Lone Wolfe stile mass murderers in almost every culture. But this brand of religious fanaticism is Islam’s alone these days.
April 15th, 2006 at 12:50 pm
“Look around at some blogs and then come back and talk about Islam being evil…”
I don’t think Islam is evil. It seems like most of the people in charge of it are however. These guys just didn’t get up in the morning and think to themselves that; Hey! I think I’ll murder me a bunch of Christians today. It’s your religion. FIX IT!
April 15th, 2006 at 1:00 pm
“Do u think this blog or many ones out there support what happened?
That’s not the point. What do you hear from your religious leaders every Friday? Do they tell you that Jews drink blood and are the spawn of monkeys and pigs? Do they tell you that America is the Great Satan? Do they tell you that the non-Muslim world is out to humiliate you? An honest answer would be a good thing here.
April 15th, 2006 at 1:03 pm
“Many Muslims are against what happened.”
I noticed you didn’t say “Most Muslims are against what happened”. Freudian slip?
April 15th, 2006 at 1:06 pm
“Don’t label a whole religion evil just because of the actions or the inactions of a group of people.”
I don’t.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
April 15th, 2006 at 1:08 pm
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
Oh, I forgot. The Islamic paradise in which you reside probably prevents you from visiting that website. Pitty really.
April 15th, 2006 at 1:16 pm
“…they don’t have to go out and protest just to show it…”
No they don’t. Just stop attending the hate spewing Mosques. That would probably be a big help. Oh yea, STOP SENDING YOUR CHILDREN TO THESE PLACES FOR AN “EDUCATION” AS WELL!
April 15th, 2006 at 1:19 pm
“…so stop stereotyping…
Starting to wear thin… very thin indeed. It’s not a stereotype when it’s almost universally true.
April 15th, 2006 at 1:28 pm
“…blame the freaking governments and the damn dictatorships…”
There your governments! The last couple that we took down seems to have sent you folks into a religious tirade. What exactly is it that you want from us? If we do business with your governments, you think we’re propping them up. If we boycott your governments, you think we’re screwing you because we hate Arabs/Muslims. If we overthrow these Asshole governments , you twits tell us that we are against Islam. SO JUST WHAT DO YOU EXPECT US TO DO!
Granted, we made the huge mistake of getting dependant on your oil. We are currently working overtime on remedying that situation. I quite sure that that is an Infidel conspiracy as well.
April 15th, 2006 at 1:31 pm
Curt from Houston,
More than 90% of the inhabitants of the ME are Muslims & have been for 1400 years. That is unlikely to change in the forseeable future. You just have to live with it. The Crusaders came & they lost. And Europe already tried invading the entire ME for 150 years & didn’t manage to change that fact.Whatever you think of doing to achieve that has already been done & didn’t work. So find something more useful to do with your time than trying to fight the Crusades all over again.
April 15th, 2006 at 1:43 pm
“More than 90% of the inhabitants of the ME are Muslims & have been for 1400 years. That is unlikely to change in the forseeable future. You just have to live with it. The Crusaders came & they lost. And Europe already tried invading the entire ME for 150 years & didn’t manage to change that fact.Whatever you think of doing to achieve that has already been done & didn’t work. So find something more useful to do with your time than trying to fight the Crusades all over again.”
BWAHAHAHHAHAAAA!
Do you think for one instant that the West would care a tinkers damn what happened in the Middle East if it wasen’t for the oil?
We don’t want your land. We don’t care what your religion is.
In fact we don’t particularly care what you do to you’r own.
What does upset us is when your followers of the religion of peace fly passanger jets into our major buildings.
Yeah… that gets our attention.
April 15th, 2006 at 1:50 pm
Curt,
Oh I see. So because a handful of Muslims attacked you all 1.5 billion of us have to convert? Like I said. Dream on.
April 15th, 2006 at 2:00 pm
“Oh I see. So because a handful of Muslims attacked you all 1.5 billion of us have to convert? Like I said. Dream on.”
I don’t care what you do. Please get this straight. You can worship Tinker Toys for all I care. You folks in the Middle East seem to think that everyone else in the world cares that you’re Muslims. We’re not. Go do your own thing. Straighten out your own problems. We don’t care. I don’t know how many of your citizens were jubilant about 9/11, but it sure looks like allot of them. We just want to live our own lives without fear of being murdered by some Muslim fanatic. That is exclusively your problem!
April 15th, 2006 at 2:01 pm
Lets assume the story is true for a moment. Arresting these people still is not enough. There are many more. This is like trying to stop the bullets instead of the gun…
The gun is the educational system and the fanatics in the Mosques. If Egypt actually cared about its non-Muslim population (it is a “moderate” country after all) it would stamp out this hate.
Just imagine the outcry if the stories Sandmonkey has listed above happened to Muslims in America.
April 15th, 2006 at 2:03 pm
“The attacker stormed the church armed with a knife and shouted ‘There
is no God but Allah’ and ‘Allah is the greatest’ before stabbing the
worshippers,” one of the Mar Girgis church employees told an AFP
reporter on the scene.
And people still say that Islamic countries treat people of different faiths well. They must have extremely low standards, dont you think?
April 15th, 2006 at 2:04 pm
Many, many good comments, and a few extremely stupid ones. (I hope mine will be the former. I will be making a number of posts here, but today is a busy dau so they will have to be broken up.)
I want to start by pointing one thing out. A number of you have stated that there is a ‘vast, silent, majority of Moderate Muslims’ out there. But I don’t know whether or not this is true, AND NEITHER DO YOU. (You, I’m sure, at least most of you, spend your time with people who agree with your positions. That’s only natural. But you don’t know if ‘people like you’ are a vast majority, or a majority at all.)
The only thing we can say is that moderate Muslims are, for the most part, SILENT.
I want to ask each of you who wear that title, when was the last time a friend, a relative (not your aunt, Sam, some people are unreachable), a co-worker, someone you were talking to on a bus, made an ugly, hate-filled, pro-violent statement, and you confronted and challenged and contradicted that person? When did you hear a statement ahbout ‘the jooooz’ or Christians, or women, or gays, and said, “No, you are WRONG about that”? When did you hear someone deny 9/11 and tell them they were wrong? When did you hear someone praise a bombing, an attack, or talk about Islam demanding ‘jihad’ and correct them, and say, “No, Islam is NOT about that.”
I want to issue a challenge to each of you. (It’s a two-part challenge, but I think that i hope most of you won’t take up the second part of it, because of the danger involved.)
Next Friday, whether you regularly attend the mosque or not, go. But not to the one you usually go to. Pick a mosque miles away from you, at random, and attend the sermon there. Take notes, mental if you have to, phsyical (paper or tape) if you think you dare. Report what you heard, here, or on your own blog, or post on mine — I may have a second blog up later today which will just be dealing with Islam, and keep “If it is it doesn’t matter” for general topics. Find out what other Muslims are saying and hearing. That’s the first part.
And the second part, and only do this if you are safe. If you have heard horrible things in the sermon, if you’ve heard hate, and violence, and the sort of evil we all can recognize, make a flyer, go back, and hand it out the next Friday, quoting and condemning the statements you heard as un-Islamic.
I’ll have more later, but I have things I have to do here.
April 15th, 2006 at 2:22 pm
Re: 28
Come on Hal. They were shouting G-d is Great while stabbing Christians and they said they were Muslims. That is concrete enough for me.
Dont you see what is happening to your religion? Dont you see what is happening to your society? You are bring us to the brink of war. Stop excusing extremist Islam.
April 15th, 2006 at 2:42 pm
I am with you Jonas. People like Pete are only one step away from the people trying to kill us.
April 15th, 2006 at 2:46 pm
Sandmonkey, you should be ashamed of yourself. Rather than ranting about what your brothers did in Alexandria you should lead your follow muslims and have a huge demonstration against Islamic oppression. What can I say. A good Muslim is a dead Muslim
April 15th, 2006 at 3:09 pm
Curt,
You know I just don’t get you people. Everytime something happens you come around screaming where are the moderate Muslims & why are they silent. Then when a moderate Muslim like Drima speaks up & says hey guys this is not what I believe in you call him a liar & accuse him of making excuses. Why would he make excuses? He hasn’t done anything. He’s just someone who happens to share your opinion.
So you have to ask yourself if a moderate Muslim is caught between extremist Islamist nutjobs who tell him his religion calls for murder & extremist nutjobs on the other side who also tell him his religion calls for murder. Both sides tell him what he believes in & neither is willing to listen to him. What should he do? What any sensible person would do. Leave both sets of extremist nutjobs to drown in their own bile & get on with his life.
And as for the West not caring about the ME I suggest you review your country’s foreign policy over the last 50 years or so. You’ll find a lot of it very odd behavior for a country that doesn’t care about the ME.And before you come here mouthing off hatred at innocent people who’ve done nothing to you & who are probably suffering from Wahabi terror as much as if not more than you, why don’t you ask your government to stop supporting regimes like the House of Saud & the Pakistani regime?Don’t you think these two regimes have a lot more influence over the terrorists than someone like Drima?I mean seriously what do you expect him to do?Travel to Afghanistan & search for Osama’s cave & tell him listen stop what you’re doing because Curt from Houston doesn’t like it? Seriously what do you want from us?
April 15th, 2006 at 3:54 pm
Loloou,
What an irresponsible way to handle a serious problem. Where is your activism? How come you are not demonstrating against extremism? How come you are not uniting with other so called “moderates” to weed out your sick brothers in Islam. You want to keep the status quo because it keeps your Muslim privilege.
April 15th, 2006 at 4:08 pm
maged salamah,
“How come you are not demonstrating against extremism?”
If I was Egyptian or if I lived in Egypt I would demonstrate. Even though I don’t think demonstrations are very effective in dealing with terror. Iraqis have demonstrated in mass several times against the terrorists who are killing them. And I haven’t heard of a drop in the number of attacks because of those demonstrations. You demonstrate to express your opinion. People who want to kill you don’t care about your opinion.
And incidentally what are my Muslim privileges?
April 15th, 2006 at 4:18 pm
Sandman -
My Egyptian friend when I mentioned the previous incidents of Muslim mobs said that it is the Gov’t trying to keep the people fighting that is causing this not the Muslim Brotherhood. Of course he thinks the MB is good guys and hates Mubarrek. He believes that if an Arab leader could rule without the influence of the United States then they might not get such a hore and bad ruler…. his feelings on Iran of course like I imagine Al Jazeera? is not very critical of the Mullahs?
Also once I brought up the Kurds as forming the only legit shot at Democracy, he brought up Lebanon, his face turned down and he said all they want to do is get Kirkuk and Mosul… so I asked him how did he think Arabs became the majority in those towns? lol…………. though the Kurds haven’t been great to the other minorities there since, Turkomen etc…
April 15th, 2006 at 4:19 pm
I may have misunderstood you to be a Muslim living in Egypt. Christians in Egypt need to know that many Muslims are standing behind them and are fighting extremists. Unfortunately, they want to keep the things they are to take advantage of their privileges: Here is a list of muslim privleges: http://democraticegypt.blogspot.com/2006/03/muslim-privilege.html
April 15th, 2006 at 4:31 pm
maged,
“Christians in Egypt need to know that many Muslims are standing behind them and are fighting extremists.”
I understand. And I hope they do.
Are you in Egypt?
April 15th, 2006 at 5:06 pm
yes lolou and I know they will get me soon
April 15th, 2006 at 5:08 pm
maged,
I pray that you will be safe. But please be careful.
April 15th, 2006 at 5:19 pm
yes lolou and I know they will get me soon
I feel sick just reading that. I wish there was something I can do, maged. Do you have the means to leave? Would you want to if you could?
April 15th, 2006 at 5:22 pm
First They Came for the Words
Then they came for those who had spoken out against, those who had taken the words. Then they came for the Christians. Then they came for the Jews. Until the only voice left was the soothing of the caliphate.
April 15th, 2006 at 5:45 pm
maged salamah, you are right that actions speak louder than words, but what have you learnt?
There are not enough people to make an impact through a rally, and there is so much crap going on in the Islamic world that you would have to be permanently protesting. Sometimes ranting is a good call, and I think that this is a pretty good rant. Perhaps it will change some people’s opinions, open some eyes, and as that happes we will see a stronger support for protests.
April 15th, 2006 at 5:49 pm
Good Friday Was A Bad Friday In Egypt
There’s much to be said for maintaining a balance between absoluteness in faith and common sensically dealing with threats to survival. Difficult decisions, but militant Islam offers few choices for both non-Muslims and truly moderate Muslims alike.
April 15th, 2006 at 5:50 pm
Maged, what are your plans for your safety. Do you have another place to go if it is nessessary?
Best Wishes
April 15th, 2006 at 7:10 pm
Steven,
I am an American citizen who decided to go back and fight the oppression of my people. I left Egypt because I could not stand the oppression of my people, but I returned last year to face these demons. Pray for me.
April 15th, 2006 at 7:20 pm
Hosni Mubarak and his gang are opressing and persecuting all Egyptians Copts and Muslims alike. What happened is a cowrdly act that the majority of Muslims do not approve of. Such acts, no matter who is behind them, ultimately will hurt both Copts and Muslims and we should work together to stop them.
The main problem, in my opinion, is that the leaders of the community on both sides and the government are ignoring the causes and roots of the ever widening rift between Copts and Muslims and are always aiming at “self control” and preserving a facade of unity.
April 15th, 2006 at 7:24 pm
Jonas,do not worry. We only have one life to live. Thanks for your concerns
April 15th, 2006 at 7:25 pm
maged, why would any one get you ?
and jonas and steve , there is no abusehere in egypt, okay? not because of one single fact that happened and unfortuantely a revolutin before from 6 months make EGYPT has problem with muslims and christians!
For me as an Egyptian Muslim , this is not like that all the time, I would challenge anyone who can say that tehre was a history of wars or conflicts between muslims and christians in egypt. What makes the conflicts might apear (beside this act) those who speak too much trying to make a fire between the two groups, charging one group on the other and tell them SEE What muslims do and thanks for the MEdia that once this happened it kept on addressing the isue as if it was a very good opportunity to show it as if it is one the serials that happen everyday ! No this is not
I think those who are doing that are trying to make us the egyptians here live unpeace , it is for whose benefit , muslim or christian in egypt that he would live with fears? Welearn that we live fine together.
Just an example , muslims in US don’t have their islamic vaccations (eid ) for example as far I know. but here Muslims and christians take their relious vaccations completely.
I don’;t need to go on and on in this, because honestly i see what is much worser in the west if we will take about discrimination there that we can talk and talk about and we can tlk about the mosques that have been invaded in Muslim countries with thousands of prayers, but I want to stick that an accident with one insane person doesn’t make it here sounds like we are in a civil war ! Clear?
Curt , very pretty that you know that your country doesn’t seek any attention from ME except from its oil , ok so you want to live peacefully , we also want to live peacefully that unfortunately your country turned it to nightmare for Iraqi women and children and men, it was one accident for you by few men , and here it is an official act by your government !
April 15th, 2006 at 7:51 pm
roora you should be ashamed of yourself. Did you forget the 15 youths killed inside a Church in Abu Qerqas in 1999? Did you forget the 25 Coptic Christians murdered in Koshh in 2000 and not a single conviction was given? Did you forget the murder of 2 Christians in Luxor last October. Did you forget el Zawyah al Hamrah? Your denial of this serious problem of oppression deserves nothing but disdain and disgust. You are nothing but a fanatic Muslims who enjoys the suffering of Christians the same way your prophet did.
April 15th, 2006 at 8:50 pm
“You know I just don’t get you people. Everytime something happens you come around screaming where are the moderate Muslims & why are they silent.”
One more time.
IT AIN”T MORMONS THAT ARE SLAUGHTERING PEOPLE THE WHOLE WORLD OVER! IT’S MUSLIMS! IT’S YOUR PROMLEM! MODERATE OR OTHERWISE WE DON’T CARE! JUST FIX IT! OTHERWISE WE’LL BE FORCED TO DO IT FOR YOU! WE DON’T WANT TO BUT YOU WILL LEAVE US NO CHOICE!
April 15th, 2006 at 9:00 pm
“I am an American citizen who decided to go back and fight the oppression of my people. I left Egypt because I could not stand the oppression of my people, but I returned last year to face these demons. Pray for me.
I am not a religious person but I wish you well and will keep you in my thoughts. Let us know how it’s going. I for one would be interested.
April 15th, 2006 at 9:00 pm
More attacks by the religion of peace.
April 15th, 2006 at 9:13 pm
“And as for the West not caring about the ME I suggest you review your country’s foreign policy over the last 50 years or so. You’ll find a lot of it very odd behavior for a country that doesn’t care about the ME.”
As I said. We have made the huge mistake of getting dependent on oil from the Middle East. We are now very much in the process of fixing that. When not if that happens, you guys are on your own again. You better get a handle on the nut jobs before that. Otherwise, you will all be at their mercy with no outside help available.
April 15th, 2006 at 9:25 pm
Maged, I am very sorry that I see an example like you , what makes it up for me that I know so many other christians whom their hearts are not full of hatred like you. Because simply before this accident I can see that your blog was attacking the ISlam and its basics and its fundamentals , and you are questioning about it ! why are you bothering your self by questioning about it and claiming it on the first basis, and talking about his prophet PBUH with disrespect ?
if you want to be upset because of a certain act it is your rigt but dont disrespect others’ religons by attacking their beliefs as we should respect other beliefs right?
because instead of being upset from few people , you offended our prophet and our religous believes. It is our right like it is you right that we should have some resepct towards each others’ believes , Fair enough? isn’t it ?
“You are nothing but a fanatic Muslims who enjoys the suffering of Christians the same way your prophet did.”
I dont care about your opinion on me !
I know many christians and we are in good terms with them , it is for everyone benefit to live in peace and to quit simply people who take an advantage from situationsd like that to feed others with hatred towards each other. For whom benefit?
but when you talk about my prophet PBUH , speak with respect . For your knowledge if you don’t know, he asked us to be good with the egyptians and their christians , as he married an egyptian christian woman.
April 15th, 2006 at 9:39 pm
If you read my posts carefully, you will discover that your prophet is the reason for the misery of my people. Check out what he said about killing Christians and jews and humilating them. Face it. Your prophet was a miscreant who caused the merciless death of milions of Christians.
Also, check my posts about the teaching of Muhammad and how it screwed my Egyptian society. The man who killed the innocent worshipper in the church was a true Muslim who followed Muhammad’s teachings.
He did not marry that Christian woman. She was given as a sex slave for him. He married a child who was 6 years old and consummated his marriage with her when she was 9. You should be ashamed of him.
I am not botheringmyself with Muhammad. I am using Quran and islamic oral traditions to expose Muhammad.
April 15th, 2006 at 9:41 pm
Obviously, this is all the fault of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and America’s support for Israel. I mean, it is behind everything: the Sunni-Shi’ite violence in Iraq, the beheading of Christian girls in Indonesia by Muslim fanatics, the attacks on Copts in Egypt.
If only they solved the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (and gave Hamas everything it wants), this would all go away, right?
Right?
Right . . .
April 15th, 2006 at 9:48 pm
Maged , most of you say is lies or let us say misinterption , if you want to know about Islam dont dpend on your self and self interpret , ok? Get an islamic book and read about it and please dont impose violence here , we dont go and claim your beliefs , do we ? respect others believes if you want others to respect yours ? MR civilized Man ??
April 15th, 2006 at 9:49 pm
Good point Tommy. Muslims are very low in their moral developmental; they would never take responsibilty for their failures and stupidity.
April 15th, 2006 at 9:49 pm
Frankly, to some of the Muslims on these boards who always say that this has nothing to do with Islam and these attackers are not Muslims and are always taking the defensive against Western critics who see an element of Islamic fanaticism and bullying:
Why don’t you show as much outrage, vigor and energy over the actual attack rather than other people’s perception of it?
Then maybe non-Muslims would take you seriously.
You say that this has nothing to do with Islam, then get your kind to knock it the hell off for heaven’s sake! All we see is this sort of crap coming out of the Islamic world. Not your hordes of cultural and technological innovations (not a lot to speak of, not since the Middle Ages at least). Not your efforts to promote peace and democracy (not much there either, saldy). Not, by a long shot, your commitment to the rights of minorities, women, etc. Just your constant violence and inability to tolerate non-Muslims. Not any sort of positive commitment in the modern era whatsoever. Just the scream of “Allahu Akbar” and the swing of a knife or squeeze of a trigger or the loud blast of another suicide bomber trying to get his 72 virgins.
April 15th, 2006 at 9:53 pm
roora I am using quotes from the Quran and Bukhary. These are the Islamic book. Is there another Quran or Bukhary. Face it. Muhammad was a child molester who was a killer ,murderer and a thug. You as a Muslim woman are reduced to a sex slave and your testimony is not acceptable if contradicted by a man. Muhmmmad said you are deficient and your voise should not be heard. See it for yoruself:
http://democraticegypt.blogspot.com/2006/03/muhammad-to-women-you-are-inferior.html
I am using Quran and oral traiditions
I do not respect a man whose teachings cosntantly inflict pain on my people.
April 15th, 2006 at 9:56 pm
Frankly, I think the Coptic Christians need to consider a voluntary apartheid for their own safety and wellbeing. I think they should modernize and revive the Coptic language and not even attempt to communicate with the Muslims. They should live in segregated areas of their own choosing and try to handle as much of their own security as possible. They should minimize their daily interaction Muslims just as Jews had to both the West and in Islamic societies for centuries.
How much do you want to bet within a generation or two we would be seeing a very progressive, financially, culturally and technologically successful, democratically-oriented group amidst a greater, moribund, stagnant Muslim society.
April 15th, 2006 at 10:17 pm
Yes Coptic Christians should be given 10 percent of the territory and they should establish their state there, even though they have the moral right to claim all of Egypt. That would be a good thing for the few civilized Muslims who remaines, as I am sure that they will prefer to live with the Copts in a real Egyptian society instead of a Wahabbi country.
On no, wait, only Palestinians have moral rights.
April 15th, 2006 at 10:19 pm
So help us establish our safe country away from the toxic influences of Muslims
April 15th, 2006 at 10:50 pm
Maybe, as a first step, we need to step up the cartoon counterjihad. To any artists among us: we need your help in coming up with even more offensive Muhammad cartoons. Let us not cower before extremists. Let ‘em have it!
After all, Muslims can hardly complain about their religion being disrespected when they are stabbing people in the gut with knives because they aren’t Muslim.
Say, does anybody know of any Coptic-owned businesses in Egypt that export products abroad? Maybe we can launch a “Buy Coptic” campaign in solidarity with Copts while we are at it.
What else can we outside of Egypt do to aid our Coptic comrades?
April 15th, 2006 at 10:54 pm
Tommy,
Just send letters/emails to Bush and Congress asking them to stop the sendingg 2 billion dollars every year to the Egyptian government and give it instead to the US Coptic Association (www.copts.com)
April 15th, 2006 at 11:10 pm
here is a repository of muhammad cartoons. http://www.muhammad-cartoon.com/
April 15th, 2006 at 11:19 pm
GH, thanks, but truth is, no matter how much I condemn this attack or apologize for it as a Muslim, that won’t make much of a difference. So much more is needed…and from what I’m beginning to understand, it’s us Muslims who have to condemn attacks like this caused by other ‘Muslims’ instead of doing what I just did: calling them not ‘real’ Muslims and leaving it at that. But how does one go about this?
Chip, I agree with everything you are saying. I wanted to simply make the effort and convey that there’s at least one Muslim out there disgusted by what other Muslims are doing, and it’s infuriating that both myself and ‘them’ go by this one title - Muslim - when I feel so removed from them and so against their beliefs. Therefore, to me, how can I call them Muslim and call myself that also? One of us has the wrong title and I choose to believe it’s them.
Steve, I am not excusing what extremist Muslims brainwashed by Wahhabi shits are doing. As a journalist myself, I looked at it from a syntax point of view, because, and who does not agree here, a lot of the problem has to do with our media. Our, as in the Middle East.
Our media does not condemn these attacks. Our media does not point out that this is not an isolated incident in Egypt, and that the Christian minority are being targetted by Muslim murders. Our media would not dare do that and fuel rage within the leading Muslim community, who are the entire root of the problem as it is.
I am just recently choosing to speak up instead of just reading the news, shaking my head about it, and being pissed off for a few minutes. I’m sick of that, and trying to figure out what I, as a single individual, can do to make a difference. For many Muslims - not all - I’d be considered not a Muslim at all for expressing such opinions, but it is this agreeing with the status quo that has got us here in the first place.
Hope I’m making sense…not intending to attack the opinions I disagree with here or go around seconding anyone else’s opinions…just wanting to point out that as a Muslim, I abhore attacks against innocent Christians and Jews as I believe that such attacks are against my religion, as I perceive it, and that I would like to find some way to stand up against this extremist take on religion, as I see it, and not just claim that I am a moderate Muslim and take that as doing enough. We do that to distance ourselves from the dirt, and look where our silence has gotten us.
Basically, just someone trying to find a way to make a difference, trying to find some way to stand in the face of this shit, instead of just taking it, complaining about it amongst peers and acquaintances, and not really doing anything, as our parents have done for years.
April 15th, 2006 at 11:42 pm
I want to make it clear that I understand that many Muslims on this board are moderates (like Hal), not extremists. No ill will is intended towards them. Only towards the fanatics and their apologists.
April 16th, 2006 at 12:23 am
i’ve heard many wonder why the moderate muslims don’t speak up against the extremist muslim attacks…. there’s a reason for that… we’re pretty much in the same boat as the Copts. believe it or not, extremism is fast spreading, and the moderate are slowly joining the minority groups. is there anything we can do? i honestly don’t know, but i know that we are viewed as non-muslims by the extremists….
i’m really sorry for what happened, and it shames me that such attacks were made in the name of Islam, and it shames me more that alot of people believe in their correctness.
moderate muslims do exist, and they, in my experience, sort of team together, but they are outsiders to extremists, worse than Copts, because we have “lost our faith, or its not strong enough”. the extremists are increasing in number though a lot of brainwashing…..
this whole religious fighting is getting seriously ridiculous, and the future seems bleak…i just hope things will get in control soon before a civil war starts.
April 16th, 2006 at 12:28 am
Hal:
You might check out the challenge I gave in Post #74, and consider starting there.
I would also like to invite you and other people to my new blog. My regular blog “If it is it doesn’t matter” http://jimbentn.blogspot.com/
had been discussing Islam mixed in with other things — my opposition to the war, my liberal Democratic politics, my cats, tv, baseball, etc.
I have now started a new blog just discussing Islam, “100 Camels Times X”
http://jrbentn.blogspot.com/
I would like to see many of you coming over there and challenging the rather sad picture I have gotten of Islam over the past six months — and I should say I have become anti-Islam, NOT anti-Muslim, so I could do without the comments of Curt from Houston and his ilk. I still have hopes that it is possible to be shown that there is a reason for respecting Islam itself, that, despite the problems inherent in its fundamentalism/literalism there are good things in it. So please come by and challenge me, teach me, correct me.
April 16th, 2006 at 12:37 am
Hal,
i share your feelings and thoughts,
if you ever find a way to make a difference, let me know, would be happy to join….
God Bless.
April 16th, 2006 at 12:54 am
Hi Hal (113).
Well said. I hope you’ll find an effecient way to make a difference.
Regards
April 16th, 2006 at 1:36 am
To Hal , Bathory and likeminded individuals
Good luck and thank you for informing us about your situation.
Keep up the good work, cos our media (in the west) , would not know their ass from their elbow.
(australian for “have not got a clue!”)
April 16th, 2006 at 2:56 am
Curt,
“MODERATE OR OTHERWISE WE DON’T CARE! JUST FIX IT! OTHERWISE WE’LL BE FORCED TO DO IT FOR YOU! WE DON’T WANT TO BUT YOU WILL LEAVE US NO CHOICE! ”
If you know how to fix it then be my guest. Good luck.
April 16th, 2006 at 3:31 am
Curt,
“Otherwise, you will all be at their mercy with no outside help available.”
This one’s priceless.
Outside help?You mean outside help like the British creating the Wahabi regime out of thin air on top of all that oil & then the West propping it up for decades while it used the petrodollars to propagate its poisonous ideology?Or help like the US cosying up with the Bin Ladenists in Afghanistan? Or help like various Western regimes giving asylum to people like Abu Hamza & Abu Qatada in Britain who were wanted for mass murder in their home countries & giving them decades to continue to brainwash people?Did you know that this guy Abu Qatada is the one who issued the fatwa that it’s ok for Islamists in Algeria to kill women & children & that this fatwa was used by his followers there to justify murdering close to 120000 civilians there?
I guess when they were only slaughtering Afghans & Egyptians & Algerians they were ok. They were not a problem. Reagan even compared them to your Founding Fathers.
Yeah that kind of help I think we’ll all be better off without.
Aren’t you aware that the whole point of this neocon revolution in Washington is that for the first time in 50 years or so one of your govenments finally decided it might be a good idea to help the moderates for a change rather the fascist dictators & the religous fanatics?I mean it took almost a century & Sept.11 for that to register over there.
And now you come & ask where are the moderates?Well guess what over the last 50 years or so your friends the Islamists & your client regimes the dictators have been very busy silencing, jailing, torturing, murdering & exiling moderates. I don’t think you guys have a right to make any demands of the moderates until you at least stop supporting the other side - which you haven’t. You still back the Sauds & there is still precious little pressure from the West on the regime to moderate in anyway in exchange for all the help it gets.
Why give military aid to Egyptian regime for free?Why not use the leverage it gives you to pressure the regime to provide better protection for Christians, to stop allowing hate to be preached out of the mosques(if that’s what’s happening in Egypt), to stop persecuting moderates like Ayman Nour & Saad Eldin Ibrahim, to stop sexually assaulting female protestors in the streets etc….., at least to make Egypt a place where people like SM & Maged can speak out freely & not just online.
April 16th, 2006 at 5:13 am
Well,there is more to this story
” Clashes follow Egypt Copt funeral”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4912966.stm
April 16th, 2006 at 6:01 am
My fity cent, most muslims are pretty decent people. If you guys would sack up we probably wouldn’t have too many probelms. There isn’t any reason for the “muslim” chopping heads off people to rep. your shizzy, nizzy. If I were a ’slim I would nominate FFE because she is smokin’ hot and might be a belly dancer.
April 16th, 2006 at 6:34 am
LouLou
Most of us in the US have no idea of what our government has been up to over the course of our lives. The people whom occupy the elected offices of this land are as secretive (if not more so) than the governments of the people of the ME. Asking the people of the US to present a comprehensive, fair, balanced approach to the international policy is like asking the Shias to present an effective transfer of of power during the reign of Sadam and his cronies. Neither would be considered. The strength of the US is also it’s weakness. Try to imagine several thousand factions in your country and you can imagine the conflict that occurs within the halls of Congress. The fact that little bloodshed occurs over policy in the US is no indication of the imbroglio of politics in this country. We also have fundamentalist Muslims arguing and urging and buying off elected officials right alongside the fundamentalist Christians, Jews, Hindus, animalists, etc., along with their moderate bretheren. Ultimately, a few thousand determine policy for this country and, once elected, are responsible to no one but themselves and their interests/ideals. We vote and then we watch, probably way too much. We ignore the failures of those we elect and scream bloody muder about the actions of those we don’t.
The moderates in this country are probably a huge majority but, as in your country, to intimidated to act. We are starting to discover each other and I hope will soon start to reach across the gaps of ideaology. In the next ten years we may discover a common ground or else veer too far from the mainstream again.
Education is the only hope for our common future. My own education is my reason for visiting blogs. Especially blogs that deal with Islam and the ME. My motivation stems from my stay in Brunei for eight years. The Muslim friends I made are my reason for making the effort. I haven’t spoken to any of them for over 20 years but they still occupy places in my heart. I learn all I can for myself and for them. I won’t allow the hatred I see in the media or hear spewing from people to tarnish my memories of those I care for.
Education, unbiased (neat trick, if possible) or at least uncensored is the only hope of the people of this planet. Narrowly defined dogma will only divide the ignorant. People want to believe in something, but the more information they are allowed to access, the less that belief must be supernatural or superhuman. The more we understand the less likely we will base judgements on geography, philosophy, choreography, calligraphy, or number of teeth we retain as adults.
Oh what a meandering path we leave
when we drink the fruit of leaves
I’ve to apologize again for the meandering. It would seem I can only write to blogs when I’m inebriated and being inebriated doesn’t really allow me to focus on a specific topic. Us boys off the rez usually have wose problems so I won’t complain as long as spellcheck still works.
Cut us a tad of slack LouLou, us’n don’t understand the situation and being male we want to cut to the chase and fix things. We get frustrated when we can’t. Thanks SM for the forum. Yell if I get outta line and I’ll back out.
April 16th, 2006 at 7:09 am
I think those that always talk about the United States “propping up” regimes in the Middle East are a bit weak.
I mean, come on!
Take Saudi Arabia, for instance:
First of all, the Wahhabis were not pulled out of thin air by Americans (or the Brits), they were already a major religious movement in Saudi Arabia at the time America and Co. became interested in the country. In fact, the Wahhabis were already influential throughout the Muslim world beyond Arabia by that time.
The United States, like any other country with real influence, tends to take one side or another, in whatever country is in question, based on what is in its best interests. They take sides, they don’t make them. If there is no significant movement for freedom in a country, American cannot make it magically appear. Furthermore, when the Brits and Americans began dealing with the Saudis there really was no anti-Wahhabi movement in that country and today the only anti-royalist movement of any influence is even more extreme Islamic fundamentalism - not democratic activism.
I think you Muslims who whine about this need to realize that even in most, more moderate, Arab countries than Saudi Arabia there is practically no real nascent democracy movement of any serious popular support or political strength. Who is the United States to support then? The Zarqawi/Al-Qaeda types? The religious radicals? The Muslim Brotherhood? Hamas?
Like it or not, the choices the populations of these countries make and their particular histories have a lot more to do with the way they are than American influence. America has a positive economic relationship with Saudi Arabia but it is not as if American troops are putting down rebelliosn by the Saudi people or American intelligence agencies are being used to suppress democratic activists in Saudi Arabia or other Arab countries. Change, in most cases, has to start within.
April 16th, 2006 at 7:31 am
I’m not going to attack any religion or anybody, I’m a peaceful person, and I try hard to respect everybody.
I hope that the attackers will be caught soon, and prosecuted severely. I hope that the punishment will reach at least a small portion of the act. I hope that the Egyptian court will do the relatives of the victim’s justice.
I hope that such actions won’t lead to much more violence and blood. I’m speaking here as a Jordanian first, and as an Arab second. I think it’s very easy for Westeners to attack Muslims and say what they say about them, as they know that Muslims won’t attack them, and they know that they’re safe from their harm; little did they know that their attacks will only increase the Muslim aggression. I hope that one day such extremists will wake up and start heading towards a more Secularist ideology that unifies all human beings under the flag of humanity instead of religion (similar to Lebanon and Arab Israelis).
A voice of a Jordanian who happens to be a Muslim by birth, yet an Agnostic by choice.
Cheers, and peace out, EVERYBODY.
April 16th, 2006 at 8:22 am
I think there is a lot of intolerance on a personal level between Christians and Muslims in Egypt. I lived in a Christian neighborhood in Cairo for several years. The situation in Egypt right now is that among themselves members of both groups stereotype the otehrs. I have heard it. Friday I heard (Muslim) people saying stuff like “they asked for it.” And the christians are saying similar stuff about Muslims as a group all the time.
This is not about theology or religion, it’s about identities, in the Middle East religion is like an ethnicity, a club you belong to. Kids are hearing this stuff from their parents all the time. In the end you get people who stab each other in their places of worship.
The problem is that on the surface everyone pretends they get along great. Scratch taht surface and you get a lot of ugliness. I am talking about man in the street, I am not talking about governments or leaders. And I think this is really, really scary.
After all what happened in Lebanon in the 70s could happen here. There is a lot of stress and people like to blame scapegoats and demagogues are good at drawing taht sort of thing out and making it worse. The only thing we can do is to counteract this by raising our voices and saying that it is wrong, and to be frank it’s not easy, particularly if you are not an Egyptian in the first place like me, or if you rae just plain outnumbered. But it has to be done.
I wonder if people could revive some of those older political parties like the Wafd that used to be based on secular, national unity between Copts and Muslims, to give moderate people a place from which to raise their voices, because frankly within their own communities they are afraid to. I don’t have very many good ideas on how to counteract sectarianism in Egypt, I’m afraid.
My son (Muslim) and his best friend (Christian) were doing a series of pictures about Hell for a poster contest and i was wondering why they were choosing something so negative (well, they are into Goth stuff, we are talking about teenagers after all) - perhaps they are being prescient. God help us all.
April 16th, 2006 at 8:26 am
Sandmonkey, you moron. Egypt and Sudan is not in the Middle East. You’re in Africa. Meaning, you’re African. You’re on a continent that is even MORE backwards than the Middle East!
April 16th, 2006 at 8:29 am
Egypt and other North African countries are considered part of the Middle East. They are also involved in African affairs (some would say, unfortunately for the other african countries)
I don’t know of any Egyptians who would deny being geographically in Africa! (Unlike Americans they can find lots of countries on a map!)
April 16th, 2006 at 9:37 am
Have we broken the record for the most comments on one blog post yet, are what? SM is cackling his head off as he reads what he’s let loose - cant you see him?
April 16th, 2006 at 10:13 am
tommy,
“First of all, the Wahhabis were not pulled out of thin air by Americans (or the Brits), they were already a major religious movement in Saudi Arabia at the time America and Co. became interested in the country.”
I’m sorry but this simply isn’t true. First of all the British didn’t just suddenly ‘become interested’ in Saudi Arabia. The British & the French created Saudi Arabia along as all other Arab countries. Isn’t it true that all the countries in the ME today owe their existence to Psykes-Picot i.e. to a Whitehall bureacrat with a pencil & a map?
It was the colonial powers which decided which people get a state & which people don’t. And they also decided to a very large extent who should be in power in each of these newly created states.
Wahabis were not a large movement at all.
>>However, Wahhabism was a minor current within Islam until the discovery of oil in Arabia, in 1938. Vast oil revenues gave an immense impetus to the spread of Wahhabism. Saudi laypeople, government officials and clerics have donated many tens of millions of dollars to create Wahhabi-oriented religious schools, newspapers and outreach organizations.
April 16th, 2006 at 1:22 pm
You know what I don’t understand, is how segments of society can seemingly be becoming far more extremist and fundamentalist, whilst at the same time, the appetite of the majority for the likes of Nancy Agram, Ruby etc who dress (very finely indeed) in short skirts etc, ipods, foreign films, risque Middle Eastern films etc, is increasingly exponentially?
April 16th, 2006 at 1:25 pm
Brit Egyptian, it is because Muhammad digged women and sex and he told people to be like him
April 16th, 2006 at 2:59 pm
In response to LouLou’s post #131:
>>”I’m sorry but this simply isn’t true. First of all the British didn’t just suddenly ‘become interested’ in Saudi Arabia. The British & the French created Saudi Arabia along as all other Arab countries. Isn’t it true that all the countries in the ME today owe their existence to Psykes-Picot i.e. to a Whitehall bureacrat with a pencil & a map?”
Politically, Saudi Arabia may have been created by the British but, of course, the land that is now Saudi Arabia and its people existed long before the British.
It was the colonial powers which decided which people get a state & which people don’t. And they also decided to a very large extent who should be in power in each of these newly created states.
>>Wahabis were not a large movement at all.
>>However, Wahhabism was a minor current within Islam until the discovery of oil in Arabia, in 1938. Vast oil revenues gave an immense impetus to the spread of Wahhabism. Saudi laypeople, government officials and clerics have donated many tens of millions of dollars to create Wahhabi-oriented religious schools, newspapers and outreach organizations.”
From Wilfred Cantwell Smith’s “History of Modern Islam”:
“The founder (Ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhab: 1703-1787) effected an alliance with a local ruling prince (Ibn Su’ud: -1765) so that theory and practice should go hand in hand . . . By dint of their geographical remoteness in central Arabia, they were able, without difficulty, to abstract themselves from the mediaeval environment (Ottoman Empire) from which they were by conviction resiling . . . Not until the 1930’s, with the discovery of oil on their borders, was the career of their reversionary social order seriously interrupted: by the intrusion not again of the mediaeval world but now the fully modern. But that sudden intrusion has been peripheral, and cautiously guarded; the results are not yet. In the meantime the Wahhabi’s example had become widely famous, at first for the ferocity of their iconoclasm, later for the stringent purity of their faith . . . From the Holy Cities came provocative reports of a lean and stark Islam once again being seriously and exactly lived.”
It sounds to me like Wahabiism, while perhaps minor in the sense of how many Muslims were practising it, still was impressive and influential in other Muslim communities for its fundamentalism at a time when Islam was in a state of decay. Furthermore, Wahabiism was clearly well-ensconced in central Arabia well before the British or the French had any power of the region.
You make a valid point, however, oil wealth did give the Wahabis new muscle to aggressively spread their doctrines throughout the world. The madrasses in Pakistan are one example of this. But my original point still stands: who else was in Arabia at that time, around the oil fields, to negotiate with if not the Wahabis?
April 16th, 2006 at 5:13 pm
If the only thing you can comment on is one word “spit” out of every point I laid out, then that just shows how weak your commentary is.
Jonas, I don’t know you, but based on what I’ve read here, you seem to have an obsession with being right–and insulting everyone who submits a contrary view.
How “godly”, “christian” etc. This is just as ugly as the tone Islamists take, IMO.
April 19th, 2006 at 6:18 pm
Not much on my mind right now, but it’s not important. I’ve just been letting everything happen without me. I just don’t have anything to say right now.
[URL=http://s3.phpbbforfree.com/forums/index.php?mforum=kkarsha]adipex[/URL] [URL=http://vvarder.cba.pl/adipex.html]adipex[/URL] [URL=http://vvarder.cba.pl/alprazolam.html]alprazolam[/URL]
April 19th, 2006 at 6:20 pm
Not much on my mind right now, but it’s not important. I’ve just been letting everything happen without me. I just don’t have anything to say right now.
ambien http://vvarder.cba.pl/ambien.html hydrocodone http://partizzanka.cba.pl/hydrocodone.html lorazepam http://partizzanka.cba.pl/lorazepam.html
April 19th, 2006 at 6:21 pm
Hi i really like your site, i place a link on my web-site, continue like that.
April 19th, 2006 at 7:31 pm
Alleen onder Glamour versta ik wat anders maar dat moet kunnen.
ambien http://vvarder.cba.pl/ambien.html hydrocodone http://partizzanka.cba.pl/hydrocodone.html lorazepam http://partizzanka.cba.pl/lorazepam.html
April 19th, 2006 at 7:32 pm
Not much on my mind right now, but it’s not important. I’ve just been letting everything happen without me. I just don’t have anything to say right now.
July 17th, 2006 at 7:43 pm
Dear Allah:
HELP!… WE ARE RUNNING OUT OF VIRGINS!
Meek Muslim Moron
:-O