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Sunday, 16 Apr 2006
They are fighting , the Christians and Muslims, again , RIGHT NOW. And a Muslim man just died ! (h/t BP )
Muslims clashed on Sunday for a second day with Christians angered by
the murder of a Copt in the Egyptian city of Alexandria, witnesses
said. At least one person was wounded when around 100 people began
hurling rocks and bottles at each other in the city on Egypt's northern
coast, where a Muslim on Friday stabbed six people, killing one of them
in attacks at two churches.A Muslim died early on Sunday from
wounds received in Saturday's violence, a hospital source said. Mustafa
Said Meshal, 47, had been clubbed on the head.
This is bad. This is very very bad. Now that a muslim has died, it won't stop or die down. Muslims don't operate under eye for an eye principle. For this guy's death there will be at least 3-4 churches razed. This is bad! Fuck. FUCCKKKKKKKK!!!!!
Update: The Police has gotten involved, and now things are much much worse. The Police decided to attack the christians, and then the muslims, trying to attack the christians as well, attacked the police. Badness is going down all over :
Police fired live ammunition into the air and lobbed tear gas into
rioting crowds of Christians and Muslims on Sunday in a third day of
sectarian violence in Egypt's second-largest city.Police fought back against Coptic Christians, who were encircled by
a security cordon around the Saints Church in downtown Alexandria after
hurling stones and bottles from inside the police line. Fellow
demonstrators tossed Molotov cocktails from the balconies of nearby
buildings.Police could be seen repeatedly beating a boy of about 12, who was
among the crowd of Coptic young people who fled into the church,
slamming the doors behind them, or dashed down narrow streets
surrounding the church. Most of the protesters were between the ages of
12 and 25.Later, a huge mob of what appeared to be Muslim protesters charged the police cordon from the other side.
Mustafa Mohammed Mustafa, a Muslim Brotherhood parliamentarian, said
a 24-year-old Muslim died early Sunday of wounds from a beating by
Christians during rioting Saturday.The Christian protesters behind the police cordon repeatedly surged
against it from the front of the church, and by late afternoon they
were hurling rocks and bottles at security troops as others tossed
firebombs from surrounding apartment balconies.Sirens blared as ambulances raced toward the scene. Armored police
vehicles surrounded the church as tear gas fumes sent protesters
fleeing down narrow streets in the neighborhood.Earlier Sunday, police officials said 43 people had been wounded in
clashes near the church and 50 others were arrested as religious
leaders and politicians sought to ease sectarian tensions in the
aftermath of a series of weekend attacks on Coptic churches. The police
spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to
talk to reporters.
Firebombs, Molotov cocktails, tear gas, live ammunition. Oh God!
So, ehh, is it safe to call it a civil war yet? Or are we just going to say that this is an isolated incident?
Related posts:
April 16th, 2006 at 2:09 pm
Eye for an eye. It sounds fair to me SM.
April 16th, 2006 at 2:11 pm
I simply cannot believe that this stuff’s happenning in Egypt. I’m not sure if i want to go there now. I grew up in Egypt and went to a christian school. Egyptians back then didn’t differentiate whatsoever between christian and muslim. I even remember fasting with them and they also fasted with us, that’s how close we were. I remember hearing many years ago that this sort of crap was starting to be the norm in upper Egypt, which was bad but now it’s hitting the cities and Egypt’s biggest ones at that. I dare not even think the words civil war. How truly sad and ignorant of Egyptians who enviably lived in harmony for thousands of years……
Nahla
April 16th, 2006 at 2:16 pm
Odin Lover,
It may sound fair to you. But the muslim population won;t think so. We are talking at least another 3 churches razed over this guy’s death.
April 16th, 2006 at 2:20 pm
SM
Sure. But should the copts just let themeselves be killed instead then? Submit to the mighty muslims?
April 16th, 2006 at 2:21 pm
I dont know about the rest of you but I am starting to get really fed up of all this hate … all we do is read about it and criticize it and shake our heads. There have to be enough “sane” people on both sides of the equation to push some sort of normal solution ……
I have spent the past hour surfing for organizations which bring together moderate Christians, Muslims and Jews to work on a solution to this escalating situation between the cultures. There were some but most had underlying political intentions and representations (be it an anti-Bush message or an anti-Israel one - always favourites of the left).
Where is the Muslim organization (those of us who lived in the ME know that if any movement is started by non muslims or muslims living abroad it will be condemend as a Zionist conspiracy) that brings together people of all faith calling for moderation in all aspects of life WITHOUT having some embedded political undertone …….
April 16th, 2006 at 2:27 pm
If one of the other posters was right about minority-majority making the difference every Muslim in America would have been dead ten minutes after 9/11.
American citizens tend to be armed and potentially dangerous. As a nation we haven’t seen collective violence like this since the bad old days of segregation and lynchings (at least 40-50 years ago).
Muslims should check out some of the rules of war we’ve cooked up here in the West. Or, keep it up. It will be an interesting experiment, targeting civilians on purpose while government officials sit behind layered security and do nothing.
Just a WAG, could get ugly. After SUV jihady prick and the Moussaoui trial, both of which exposed the idiots to Islamic teachings without the smooth spokesmen covering up the nasty shit, Americans are feeling a bit upset with the “long war.”
April 16th, 2006 at 2:35 pm
I was the one who pointed that out, and I am talking about deeply sectarian societies, of which Egypt is one, and the US is NOT.
April 16th, 2006 at 3:04 pm
just wanted to point out, Christianity in no way encourages revenge and particularly NOT “an eye for an eye”. But people are people and they’re angry it’s going to get truly mosntrous. rabenna yostor.
April 16th, 2006 at 3:11 pm
SM: I was under impression that in Egypt police had a lot of control over people. Do you think they could be provoking this unrest? Otherwise it’s not clear why there were not there in force to stop the disturbance after the initial incident.
April 16th, 2006 at 3:25 pm
Well we don’t understand it. We hear in Denmark have learned that Muslims are peaceful, tolerant and lowing people.
And if you believe that I have a lot that you can buy from me.
Unsettle you Muslims have to get your act together. I we in the vest would react to the same way as you we would have nuked Meka long time ago and if you keep it up we will. Trust me.
So your police have to de more to protect the no Muslims in Egypt.
April 16th, 2006 at 3:41 pm
“Muslims should check out some of the rules of war we’ve cooked up here in the West. Or, keep it up”
I look forward to Operation Make Kahn Look Like a Pussy.
April 16th, 2006 at 3:42 pm
test,
No one is going to be dropping a nuke on Mecca over this. LOL! Not the US, not the French, not the British. Nobody in the ‘vest.’
I can certainly understand how Denmark could be skeptical of Muslims. I can’t blame you. Rather than talking about nuking Mecca maybe you guys should just worry about kicking the crap out of a certain imam in your country. This Laban character is a grade-A scumbag and a traitor to his adopted country.
April 16th, 2006 at 3:45 pm
3amma, what the hell is going on, I have the TV on right now and I can’t even find a single channel that’s reporting this, this should be live and covered by every damn media outlet, what is WRONG with us!??!?! NOT A SINGLE CHANNEL. Not even in the moving text that’s on the bottom of the screen on news channels. THIS IS RIDICULOUS.
No I mean it, I am checking everything over here, NOTHING.
April 16th, 2006 at 3:46 pm
Test, do shut up or write a coherent sentence please.
“Unsettle you Muslims have to get your act together. I we in the vest would react to the same way as you we would have nuked Meka long time ago and if you keep it up we will. Trust me.”
If you’re going to make racist comments like that at least learn to spell, read and write, oh and while you’re at it educate yourself so you may be better informed about the difference between muslims and FUNDAMENTALISTS.
This is very saddening for egyptians because the majority don’t actually support this sort of behaviour, a point of view that i’m sure will change with the increase of this sort of thing. The last thing we need is ignorant, uninformed people taking sides and blindly adding fuel to the fire and using this incident to voice their hatefull opinions. Such hate is the same method used by the fundamentalists to divide egypt and we’d been winning the battle till recently. What a shame.
Nahla
April 16th, 2006 at 3:48 pm
Tommy,
Absolutely. Deal with the muslims who have migrated into the West first. Begin with the imams first. The sooner the better.
April 16th, 2006 at 3:52 pm
The Coptic Christians were attacked first. It’s my experience that with expansionist Islam, it’s almost always the Muslims who attack first. If then the Copts or any other so called ‘infidels’ whether Christian, Jewish or otherwise, defend themselves, that is their God-given right to do so. Why then do the police attack the Christians when it’s the Muslims who start the trouble. Of course, by now the Christians any many Muslims, I dare say, are fed to the teeth with the fundamentalists attacking and are ready to fight. A Christian is taught to be slow to anger but remember…even Jesus got angry and threw money-changers out of a temple. He never said ‘don’t get angry’; just be slow to anger. Here we have some people who were attacked by a crowd of Islamic fundamentalists and one was unfortunately killed. Then at the funeral the outrage of another attack. Who would turn the cheek again? Not even Jesus would turn the cheek a third time. What kind of people don’t love themselves enough to stand up for themselves. The Copts and others have every right on earth to defend themselves…AND SO THEY SHOULD!
What the Egyptians and others who hate this SHOULD DO IS FORM A HUGE RALLY PROTESTING THE VIOLENCE OF THE ISLAMISTS! NOW!
April 16th, 2006 at 3:55 pm
There is no way there is going to be a civil war in Egypt. Maybe 10% of the population is Coptic, and the government and the military is all Muslim. It would be history’s shortest civil war, ever.
April 16th, 2006 at 4:03 pm
Adam’s right, the Copts are going to continue to be suppressed. For God’s sake, the police apparently couldn’t do anything to stop the Muslims that attacked the Copts in the first place, but where right there, ready to beat the shit out of everyone when the Copts started retaliating?? How galiant of them.
-Pissed off Muslim girl wondering not able to accept and believe that there’s STILL nothing on this on any of the news channel she is constantly surfing.
April 16th, 2006 at 4:06 pm
N,
“This is very saddening for egyptians because the majority don’t actually support this sort of behaviour…”
Bla bla bla…..
April 16th, 2006 at 4:14 pm
Odin Lever, “bla bla bla”, easy to say when it’s not your country. But a cheap comment, or shall i say non comment when you have nothing to say but want to talk rubbish anyway.
Nahla
April 16th, 2006 at 4:15 pm
N,
This time I dont agree with U. I honestly belive that the problem is that the “silent majority” DOES support this. U dont and SM doesnt and maybe 1000 others but that is a miniscule drop of water in the sea that is Egypt….
April 16th, 2006 at 4:18 pm
N,
The point was that you’re jugded by your actions not your words. ME isn’t exactly known for its tolerance towards its minorities. Talk is cheap.
April 16th, 2006 at 4:20 pm
Odin lever, eye to eye , is fair and islamic principle. BUT eye to eye should be from the one who did the act to you and not just any innocent human being and people put their anger on him because he is a Muslim and they call it revenge / eye to eye. No excuse, for me , what is fair that the one who did the accident is the one who might be sued not ANy Person.
SM, you are saying muslims dont apply eye to eye principal , so what is your religon?
Just in case if you dont know, Islam says eye to eye in a verse in quran, but again from the one who did the act HIMSELF unless if the other side forgave the first actor.
Forsoothsayer, it is good that you are saying that christianity doesnt encourage revenge but why people tend to say , “Stop generalizing on religon and put angry on everyone , when it reaches them ” while this wasn;t the case when one accident from one person on Friday, People made it sound that all the muslims here are acountable as if they were the palnners for that , one person dont make all the people accountable for his fault,
Why dont we turn the story the other side with open minds, and we question when the church in alex ( which is an official institition) now produced a CD insulting the prophet and distributed it , so why dont we shout here and blame , isn’t this an official institution that should be held accountable for its acts? and speaks and acts upon hebahlf the christians , isnt it ? and what was the result of its irresponsible behavior? It turned the fire on ! right ??
SM , very sad that there are still fights and violence is stil spreading after this act but you know why , because people are feeding the groups with anger and hatred after this situation so that fights would grow and grow and instead of looking to the situation by an individual act, and taking future security measures they made it sound like the entire Muslims pop are all responsible so that there would be more and more fights.
Unfortuantely you SM also and those who are like you are contributing in a very large part in flaming situations between all of us ? and the result is , a fight yesterday and fight today and Rabena yostor !
ANna, really US doesn;t have one ? perhaps you should go and live there or check the american bloggers and you will know better! dear there is even still differentitaion in race till now and in some states the Muslims dont feel by their entire freedom there, but anyways this is offtopic here, I am not against US in particular but I am aginst the double standards
April 16th, 2006 at 4:24 pm
Markus, I always respect your opinions whether or not you agree with me because they are opinions and not dumb comments or insults.
The sea that is Egypt does not support such incidents and more importantly what’s behind such incidents. However, more mainstream, Mb loving egyptians are starting to adopt radical points of view that would condone and maybe even take part in these attacks. I still maintain that these thousands or hundreds of thousands are the drops of water in the sea that is Egypt.
Nahla (looking through rose tinted glasses maybe….)
April 16th, 2006 at 4:30 pm
Roora,
I completely disagree about the whole dvd or cd thing. Mainly because you probably didn’t see it and therefore can’t judge its content.
Nahla
April 16th, 2006 at 4:46 pm
Well, I think you people are missing the point.
There doesn’t have to be a full fledged civil war. Maybe extremists in the Coptic community could take a lesson or two from their Muslim pals elsewhere. Would you like to see Copts walk into a mosque and detonate themselves? I mean, the Copts are still several million people, a small percentage of Copts who decided to go terrorists could cause a lot of destruction and pain.
We don’t want it to go there which is why something has to be done.
I personally believe a voluntary apartheid where the Copts restrict their daily interaction with Muslims to a bare minimum, maybe adopt a modernized version of the Coptic language as their mother tongue and live in secluded communities guarded by themselves (rather than an untrustworthy state) may be the only long term solution.
Maybe then the Copts will enjoy relative safety and be able to engage in a productive and progressive way of life away from the cultural (and mental) stagnation that modern Islam has come to represent.
April 16th, 2006 at 4:51 pm
roora,
you aren’t very bright are you?
“Why dont we turn the story the other side with open minds, and we question when the church in alex ( which is an official institition) now produced a CD insulting the prophet and distributed it”
Muslims routinely slander Christians with barely a word of condemnation from Islamic institutions (and often an endorsement). In case you don’t remember, Muslims also stab nuns over shit like this.
The only choice the Christian community in Egypt has is to put up with extremists attacking their community sometimes if they don’t offend Islam; or, if they do offend Islam put up with even more extremists attacking their community.
What a choice!
April 16th, 2006 at 5:03 pm
Roora, wow. I usually don't respond to the majority of comments, especially the ones like yours, but it was just too damn much, we ana besara7ah gayeb akhry emn el news el kharah dih. So I am going to take it out on you and that really stupid comment you left.
"SM, you are saying muslims dont apply eye to eye principal , so what is your religon?"
God I hate that really stupid question that tells tons on the bigoted mentality of those who ask it. Usually the answer is muslim, but my answer to you is enty mall ahlek?
Just in case if you dont know, Islam says eye to eye in a verse in quran, but again from the one who did the act HIMSELF unless if the other side forgave the first actor.
He didn't act by himself. Hell, according to the Father of the church and the church goers, the police protecting the church threatend with his gun the church goes when they tried to arrest him. This is also mentioned in the egyptian newspaper sout el ommah. I chose not to write that, because you know what it would imply. This is not an isolated incident, nor is he a single guy acting alone. He attacked 4 churches, completely apart, carrying 2 swords, within 30 minutes all by himself? Welnabby? Saba7 el kheir.
Why dont we turn the story the other side with open minds, and we question when the church in alex ( which is an official institition) now produced a CD insulting the prophet and distributed it , so why dont we shout here and blame , isn’t this an official institution that should be held accountable for its acts? and speaks and acts upon hebahlf the christians , isnt it ? and what was the result of its irresponsible behavior? It turned the fire on ! right ??
In reagrds to the play, that play was played for one day, and the church canceled it, and that was 2 freakin years ago. It was used to incite hatred against the chirstians by the Ikhwan in order to have their guy win in parliament. Bas mashy, let's say that Mar Gerges had it coming, and the fact that it got attacked by 5000 angry muslims last october, and had its nun stabbed isn;t enough to remedy that insult that is a play (saba7 el tefoolah assasan). So yes, Mar gerges is guilty, what about the other 3 churches ya mama? What did they do? Wallah is that the eye for an eye that you were referring to?
SM , very sad that there are still fights and violence is stil spreading after this act but you know why , because people are feeding the groups with anger and hatred after this situation so that fights would grow and grow and instead of looking to the situation by an individual act, and taking future security measures they made it sound like the entire Muslims pop are all responsible so that there would be more and more fights.
But it is not an individual act ya rorra. Anyone who cares to research the subject will know this. A7a, over the past year I counted 7 different attacks by muslims on christians and theya re always completely unprovoked. 7. Also, nevermind that they can;t get certain jobs, or ever become deans of universities, aw 7attah mo3edeen. Nevermind all the crap they always have to deal with and that makes them all want to escpae Egypt. Yes, let's ignore all that, and pretend that there is no problem, that there is great religious harmony in egypt and that all we need is more security against the "mentally unstable super attackers". You know I don't really think the christians need anyone to feed them with anger and hatred, the imams at mosques with their weekly sermons on the a7fad el qeradah wel khanazer the christians should be quite enough, no?
Unfortuantely you SM also and those who are like you are contributing in a very large part in flaming situations between all of us ? and the result is , a fight yesterday and fight today and Rabena yostor !
So I am to blame now. Rabena yekhaleelek 3aqlek. Begad, u need it, 3alashan dah lessah 3al zero. Yes, I should see my people killing eachother and pretend that nothing is wrong. I should be like you and ignore the problem. That will do the trick. I mean, we did it for 30 years so far, right? Let's all get some sand and bury our heads in it. That's the way to go!
Oh nevermind. arguing with you is a waste of time!
April 16th, 2006 at 5:03 pm
“Newspaper reports which quoted the interior ministry as speaking of the
“mentally unstable” assailant ignited the fury of the Coptic community.”
Think they got the idea from the mentally unstable couple that attacked a church in Betlehem?
April 16th, 2006 at 5:10 pm
“SM, you are saying muslims dont apply eye to eye principal , so what is your religon?”
“God I hate that really stupid question that tells tons on the bigoted mentality of those who ask it. Usually the answer is muslim, but my answer to you is enty mall ahlek?”
This is a classic Wafaa Sultan moment!lol
Your Arabic is great by the way SM, oh and i hope roora’s not representative of the majority of egyptians. It would explain a lot though….
Nahla
April 16th, 2006 at 5:26 pm
To roora @ 4:20 pm
“one who did the accident”
“one accident from one person”
“all the muslims here are acountable as if they were the palnners for that”
“produced a CD insulting the prophet”
Accident? Oops! Sorry about that gash in your stomach. Scuze me. Just passing through.
You know that the prophet was insulted? Really!? Great connections you have there. How did he react when they had a single play?
Wasn’t it really that a bunch of people were “insulted” by something another person or persons did?
I have no idea what the CD contained but I can watch my religious figure being “insulted” and defamed on South Park. How I choose to react to that event is up to me and me alone.
And just WHY did the perp need to go into the church and stab people? Oh dear, oh dear.
Because someone in a country far, far away did something that upset him. How horrific! They drew some cartoons. So of course those people praying in that church needed to die!. The scum. They’re absolutely responsible for putting him in his rage because, uh.. let’s see, they must control those people that drew those darn cartoons.
Some church makes a CD containing something.
People chose to riot and kill Christians. After all, that only makes sense!
They should have known the consequences of making a CD, without first having it edited and approved by the Muslims, would be death. How insensitive of them!
See, the Danes made the same mistake. Sorry, the rest of the world us just slow. We keep being under the impression that we are governed by our own laws.
We keep failing to accept the fact that it’s really Shariah law by which we should be living. We just didn’t realize that yet. Please forgive us. We’re just slow, stupid people.
Sorry. The way it appears to be working is that YES, all Muslims are being judged.
Yes, this was one incident. I beg you to step back and look at the pattern.
Barracks bombed
Embassy attacked
9/11
USS Cole
Spain
Britain
Indonesia several times.
Chechnya schoolchildren
And today in Iran, hundreds of young men lining up to “martyr” themselves against the US and Britain.
And that’s just the short list I can pull out of my butt.
Do you see what I mean? If this WERE a single incident, I doubt it would be as important as it is today.
“I am not against US in particular but I am aginst the double standards”
Good. Maybe you remember the 50’s and 60’s.
A more productive thing for the Muslims in Egypt to have done is surround the mourners.
Mourn with them. Protect them. Let them grieve and have their moment of anger just for a bit.
I’m not black.
But I stood by my black, brown, yellow (and whatever color you want) friends when they really needed support. Smiling ever so much at the national guardsmen across the yellow tape. They smiled back and all was well. Our country changed. Changed a lot.
Get up. Get on your feet!
Get friends and march publicly.
Is that allowed where you are?
Denounce such acts to all other Muslims, but more importantly to the rest of the non-Muslim world. They can see the pattern. Today’s technology impedes the media’s ability control our entire opinion. As noted by several others, this is being blocked from MSM. Hmm. Must be because those JOOOOZZZZ don’t want bad press for Islam.
It’s not just about Egypt! But maybe Egypt is still free enough that they can start turning the tide.
Please, God, let me find a few free Muslims that are willing to prove to the world there really IS a majority of peaceful Muslims. I can’t seem to find that secret majority.
They have to act strongly together now to avert a very bad situation in the near future.
Ooops. Sorry God. I forgot this is part of the big plan.
And we know how it all comes out because of that last chapter in your book.
Roora, stop being part of the problem and start being part of the solution. Stand up!
If we work together we can do it. If you initiate progress, and it’s measurable progress, then I will help.
If not, well there’s one old, feeble American woman ready to stand her ground. Well armed and fairly patient. Now my patience is gone.
To husband: Honey? Would you get out the reloading equipment for some extra .223 rounds? We should probably have a few hundred extra laying around. And get fresh batteries for the night gear. In the meantime I’ll put on some tea and make some toast.
April 16th, 2006 at 5:40 pm
SM ., when I ws asking what was your religon ? I was really asking because you were talking as if you weren’t and honestly I thought you ae not so I was gonna tell you simply you didn’t read quran to know or judge, but …you are excelled in being rude anyway
, second you are here again flamming people, you want all the groups and all the people t flame things like you did instead of certian ratinal acts to be taken for the sake of who? now there are more vioence than ever even than that was in last october because of those who are flamming it up like you !
It is not your fault but i am pointing out the groups who are like you that take advantage from situations and making it flame and flame.
And Please as a muslim girl , I would ask you not to talk on behalf of us, ok? Not all the Muslim SM , dont apply eye to eye? And why do we still hold us back to that extent that one individual would be treated like the whole Muslims comunity ? HUh?
I am not saying that these acts should be done as a response of this church , but I am just pointing out the difference of behaviors and the reactions.
When a professional institution makes a big mistake , and should be an official one , then the media and everyone should blame it ..ok?
but when only single person makes such an accident , why wekeep on saying O God muslims!
why is there a double standard that I can easily notice in your blog spirit?
look , i know some chistians who are fine here as far as they tell me ok? so please just dont generalize
April 16th, 2006 at 5:42 pm
BTW SM” Also, nevermind that they can;t get certain jobs, or ever become deans of universities, aw 7attah mo3edeen” prettyenough I know a lot in my college who were mo3edeen , huh , so you are the should make up reserach before you flame it up smarty!
April 16th, 2006 at 5:52 pm
SM ., when I ws asking what was your religon ? I was really asking because you were talking as if you weren’t and honestly I thought you ae not so I was gonna tell you simply you didn’t read quran to know or judge, but …
I like how the first excuse is that “obvoiusly” he isn’t muslim and therefore heasn’t read the Qur’an.
That’s always a fun one to read when Sandy is criticising Islam or muslims, that he must obviously not be one since *no one* who is truly a muslim would criticise the actions of any other muslim, as has been *clearly* demonstrated in Darfur.
Yes Sandy, you are a bad muslim because you have not learned by your brother’s example and turned a blind eye to the attrocities other muslims commit.
But Roora here is a good muslim because she doens’t care what other muslims do, only what non-muslims do, which is of course three times more heinous because they’re not muslim and dont have the right to be shitty to anyone.
April 16th, 2006 at 5:53 pm
Aslan
Well spoken. And i agree with you. Except this part.
“Please, God, let me find a few free Muslims that are willing to prove to the world there really IS a majority of peaceful Muslims”.
It sound a bit like wishful thinking in my ears.
N,
Whats your defintion on Islam and fundamentalistic Islam? Sharia is still a part of Islam right? Dhimmis still pay have the choice between paying Jizea(pardon my bad spelling) and paying with their lives? Apostates from Islam should still be killed?
April 16th, 2006 at 5:56 pm
Well Roora, no danger of labelling you “smarty”! Stop going on about the play or cd the church made unless you’ve actually seen it. I read an interview with Pope shenouda at the time and the content did not sound offensive to me. However, not having seen it of course i couldn’t say if it was offensive or not. My problem is this: A group of people were offended by a play or film which they did not see. Even if it was offensive, the reaction was completely unjustifiable. So as you seem to be sooooo open minded, lets indeed turn things the other way round. Let’s say a mosque showed an offensive play about christians etc, should there be a similar reaction?and if there was, should such a reaction be condemned? or should people understand as the mosque should after all be an official institution? Just as you don’t want all muslims to be labelled due to a fanatical minority’s actions, on which we agree, don’t label christians and blame them all for the alleged actions of that particular church.
Nahla
April 16th, 2006 at 5:59 pm
Yeah, lets see here…
Danes draw cartoons = Egyptian muslims attack Egyptian Christians.
And this is considered justifiable reaction.
Egyptian muslims attack and kill Egyptian Christians = Egyptian Christians attack and kill at least one Egyptian Muslim.
And this is utterly unjustifiable, inflaming the sutiation, and totally the fault of the Chrisitans.
Do I have that right? Yah?
April 16th, 2006 at 6:00 pm
Just trying to get that ‘eye-for-eye’ principle down, you understand…
April 16th, 2006 at 6:12 pm
“Whats your defintion on Islam and fundamentalistic Islam? Sharia is still a part of Islam right? Dhimmis still pay have the choice between paying Jizea(pardon my bad spelling) and paying with their lives? Apostates from Islam should still be killed?”
Well Odin, it’s like this sharia law is not actually practised in many arab countries. I know the Gulf countries are still quite fond of it and use it regularly to opress and instill fear in their people. That is not islam and most muslims don’t actually condone the countries that claim to be muslim and follow sharia, ie saudi etc.
Your question is like me asking a christian or a jew about the verses in the torah and bible that are not politically correct and that call for killing infidels or non believers etc. Such verses were relevant to their time only. Religion in general is having a belief and not imposing it on anyone else. A minority of fanatics and idiots hijacked a religion and quoted verses to support their idiotic arguments and actions. They called that religion true islam. Non muslims believed it and now don’t see the difference between islam and extremism. Today, extremists tend to use political issues such as palestine to justify their actions. So now they’re using 2 things, islam and palestine. So again, non muslims and non arabs will find it hard to make the distinction between muslims and extremists as well as someone who’s against the killing of innocents in say israel or iraq and someone who is a jihadi. It’s a bit of a catch 22.
Nahla
April 16th, 2006 at 6:22 pm
Ohhh no …. this is scary and sad indeed.
Eye-for-an-eye you say? Well, since the muslims started the killing, I guess things are even? Or is the message, that a muslim eye weighs more than a copt’s eye, so you’ll have to do more damage?
Sounds too much like “Animal Farm” to me: “All animals are equal - but some animals are more equal than others”.
SM and the others who live in Eqypt - what can we, who are not in Eqypt do to help? I don’t see these riots reported anywhere in our media - just little notices that a christian was killed …. could international presure help getting the Eqyptian government handle htis more correctly?
April 16th, 2006 at 6:26 pm
Odin,
I’m not a scholar or anything so i don’t actually know much about the jizya concept. except it’s not practiced today. I think it was to let someone who killed off the hook so to speak. The family of the victim would decide to forgive them and accept money instead of the death penalty, like a compensation. Why, i don’t know, but it’s not really around today. Oh and your comments do make me despair:
“Please, God, let me find a few free Muslims that are willing to prove to the world there really IS a majority of peaceful Muslims”.
“It sound a bit like wishful thinking in my ears.”
It is true believe it or not that the majority of muslims are peaceful and anti extremism, they even suffered at the extremists’ hands way before any bombings started to take place in the west.
Nahla
April 16th, 2006 at 6:29 pm
Roora, I am ashamed of being in any way connected to you. We both call ourselves Muslims, but I’m gonna go ahead and call you an ignorant, incoherent, obviously uneducated and clearly inhumane individual. Damn, you know what? I’m ashamed that we’re both females – I don’t want to have anything to do with you.
Go ahead and call me rude, I can care less. Just please, don’t call me ‘smarty,’ I wouldn’t be able to stand that.
You say to SM: “And Please as a muslim girl , I would ask you not to talk on behalf of us, ok?” HA. As a Muslim girl myself, I thank SM for talking on behalf of ALL Muslims, trying to show the international community that not all Muslims are freaks in denial like yourselves, or racists and bigots like those causing the deaths of innocent Egyptians, regardless of their religion. And as a Muslim girl, I am asking SM to continue trying to make a difference.
My God, I don’t even know how to respond to you, you’re so pathetic. PATHETIC.
Let me just ask you this, SMARTY. I’m sure you will not disagree that there are racist, ignorant and downright bigoted men and women out there, whether they’re Christian, Jewish, atheist, Buddhist, whatever-the-fuckist. Why shouldn’t there be Islamists as well? A different chromosome perhaps? Are we the superior race or something?
Forget religion, put it to one side, and tell me, as a human being, what is wrong with this picture of Muslims attacking Christians just because they are Christians then claiming insanity and anger over cartoons published back in SEPTEMBER in a completely unrelated country as the excuse.
No, forget it, don’t tell me anything, I don’t want to hear from you.
Odin lever…you’re right, Aslan’s post was well spoken. And though her fervent desire to find a few Muslims trying to prove to the world that their religion is essentially one of peace, or at least that the majority of Muslims, although silent, are peaceful, sounds like wishful thinking to you, here’s my attempt to show you that it can’t be THAT wishful if I’m here, posting this right now, and bloggers like SM are out there, bringing this to the attention of these peaceful Muslims who cancel out their claim of peacefulness by remaining silent.
Bitman….this is barely being covered in the media here in the Middle East even, so little wonder that you can only find little notices. Which says a lot about our priorities and the mentalities of our governments. What does this mean….aren’t journalists ALLOWED to cover this? Don’t networks WANT to? Have they been TOLD not to? And by WHOM?
Anyway, you ask how you can help? Well, I’d like to know how I can help too, sitting here in Jordan, watching the world around me fall to pieces.
EFT.
April 16th, 2006 at 6:30 pm
N: “Well Odin, it’s like this sharia law is not actually practised in many arab countries.”
Afganistan, Pakistan are not Gulf states? Again I’m very puzzled; if these atrosoties are carried out in the name of Islam - and to the majority this is the opposide of Islam, why - WHY - are there no demonstrations in the streets, burning of embassies etc. like we see when someone draws a picture and labels it “Muhammed”??
I like so many others have a hard time believing statements like yours. The infamouse drawings showed me that; if you are truely “insulted” you boycot, burn and kill. Since that’s not happening on this subject, it must not be so?? Or?
April 16th, 2006 at 6:35 pm
“The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.”
You’re right Hal. They cancle out their goodness by their silence. Thus it has been throughout the ages in every country, no matter what the belief.
Through silence, they condone.
People can not hear if people are not speaking. They only hear what is said. And what is said is hate hate hate hate kill kill kill and in the name of their god. And so yes, that is exactly what we hear.
But finally those like you, Hal, and those like Sandy and BP.. we’re finally FINALLY hearing another voice, but it’s small and is being too easily drowned out. I just wish there were a better way to get your voices out to the general world.
April 16th, 2006 at 6:39 pm
bitman
One thing to remember is that the government allows them to burn and kill and riot when another country draws cartoons because that country isn’t going to nuke them or drop chemical weapons on their asses for rioting. In fact the UN will even condemn the cartoon-drawers and not the rioters or burners or killers.
However, if they riot or burn or kill because their own government is corrup or oppressive or tyranical or gassing it’s own citizens, they’ll merely in their turn be attacked or tortured or their families will be killed…
So the dynamic between the two is not exactly the same. That’s the problem. They’re only free to riot against the ‘west’ not against their own. That’s why it doesn’t happen and G-d knows I have no place to stand up and tell them to put their lives on the line for it.
April 16th, 2006 at 6:40 pm
“But finally those like you, Hal, and those like Sandy and BP.. we’re finally FINALLY hearing another voice, but it’s small and is being too easily drowned out. I just wish there were a better way to get your voices out to the general world.”
HEAR HEAR!!
Ohhh wait, you do let non-eqyptians vote, don’t you?? 
Couldn’t have said it better. I’m also grateful for SM, BP and the whole gang here. It’s really opened my (western) eyes that another voice does exist and with that, HOPE exists. SM - you should run for president of Eqypt … you would have my vote
April 16th, 2006 at 6:41 pm
Bitman, the reason many people reacted the way they did about the cartoons is simply because they believed all the crap they were being fed by islamist movements, such as MB, and failed to make the distinction between a cartoon and issues such as palestine, iraq etc, which are the new slogans of islamists.
It is a simple fact that the majority of egypt are against what’s happened in Alex. Why they’re not demonstrating is beyond me but i can guess that they’re scared of getting stabbed too. I think the church and Azhar will fake a rally in a few days to show that everything’s cool. The rallies that will be genuine are likely to be university ones or unofficial ones, that’ll probably happen when things have died down a little bit so as to avoid getting stabbed etc.
As for your last comment:
“if you are truely “insulted” you boycot, burn and kill. Since that’s not happening on this subject, it must not be so?? Or? ”
I rest my case, you’re talking about the jihadis again!
Nahla
April 16th, 2006 at 6:50 pm
elengil: “So the dynamic between the two is not exactly the same. That’s the problem. They’re only free to riot against the ‘west’ not against their own.”
The initial statement was that Muslims in OTHER countries were against it. So let palenstinians demonstrate against Saudi, Let asian muslims demonstrate against Dafur … if there is a majority outside the ME, they can rise against those who call themselves muslims in other countries and still not voice against their own government?
But isn’t what you’re saying, that all Islamic governments are manipulating and controlling the media; inductrinating the population to this belief that is claimed is not shared by the majority? If so, then how can anyone make such statements in full honesty? If the whole billion of muslims in the world are being manipulated and inductrinated by these kind of regimes, then it doesn’t matter what muslim man on the street thinks? Sounds like to me, that if we did cut off the head of the snake, the Islamic governments, the rest of the snake would die too …. ?
Hope and change starts from within. It cannot be the job of the US to take on each islamic country, one by one, and “free” it (occupation is not freedom, in case you missed it). I think it would take no more than one … maybe TWO countries where the muslim population revoluted. It took only one for the soviet union to deteriate … so let’s start with Egypt? Let’s show that the population CAN be sensible and denounce the violent done in the name of Islam? Give the people the voice the deserve. Maybe then the other Islamic world would take notice, and start turning things around … and as with Eastern Europe it would be done mostly free of violence.
What a wonderful world that would be?
April 16th, 2006 at 6:58 pm
yeah.
Happy Easter, everyone. Yeshuah is risen.
April 16th, 2006 at 7:00 pm
Elengil, you quoted “The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.”
Can you tell me where that quote is from - I can see needing to use it in the future!
From the perspective of my own background and my interest in journalism and the responsibilities of the media, I think one way of solving the problem lies exactly there. Yes, there is a need of new governments and leaders etc - preferably not corrupt one - but there is a need for the media here in the Middle East to step up and stop feeding conspiracy theorist, stop being so unabashedly biased, stop adhering to the regulations of dictator-ship governments claiming to be democracies.
For instance, the Cartoon issue. Yes, I found the cartoons tasteless and infuriating, but I, inlike family members and friends and whoever, didn’t refuse to see them at all and turned my head away in disgust and said ‘estakhfer allah’ (God forgive me). Also, unlike others, I see no problems in these cartoons being published at all - I actually believe in freedom of expressions WITHOUT restrictions and conditions and what not.
Now, an editor of a weekly Arabic-language tabloid here in Jordan decided to republish the cartoons, believing that the population should take a look at what they are so strongly opposing, be aware of the ideas behind each cartoonist’s rendition, be able to form their own opinions and know how to form their own reactions.
Well, this editor was promptly thrown into jail, with his newspaper (Al-Sheehan) closed down. For all I know, he’s still rotting in jail. And ever since, we’ve had re-writes of Jordan’s SUPPOSED freedom of press laws. HA.
If we had any media responsibility at all, we as journalists here in Jordan, we as free thinkers, as educated individuals, would have staged, at the very least, a strike, would have refused to write another word, would have boycotted the Union of Journalists, or would have united in every one of our columns and articles, for our right for freedom of speech.
But I really didn’t want to be thrown in jail.
We have big problems, and it’s going to take A LOT to even begin to figure out HOW to START tackling them.
I’m tired.
April 16th, 2006 at 7:04 pm
“Christianity in no way encourages revenge and particularly NOT an eye for an eye”
In fact, Jesus specifically forbade “eye for eye”, according to the Gospels. (Which may not be an exact record of his teachings, but this seems typical of what used to say.)
It’s a pity Mohammed didn’t incorporate more of the teachings of Jesus into Islam. I guess he didn’t know much about them.
April 16th, 2006 at 7:10 pm
Why is it that a Muslim can’t speak about what he (or she) sees and the way he (or she) sees it, unless he (or she) is speaking on “behalf of the entire Muslim world.”
Come on, everyone knows that SM is speaking only from his perspective. You don’t have to insult the intelligence of everyone on this forum by suggesting we might draw the wrong impression of Muslims by SM’s comments. Believe me, the moderation we see out of some Muslims on this forum is weighed against the extremism we see out there in the rest of the world. Frankly, if you are worried about the wrong impression being painted, maybe you should worry about the impression that these knife-wielding wackos give others of Islam.
I wish the best for all the voices of reason like Hal and SM. Good luck. May the force be with you.
April 16th, 2006 at 7:12 pm
Hal, the quote is from Edmund Burke. An Irish political philosopher.
You can read more of his quotes at Wikiquote:
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Edmund_Burke
April 16th, 2006 at 7:14 pm
The story has been covered in the western MSM. The story quoted here appears under this byline on my mindspring news feed:
By OMAR SINAN (Associated Press Writer)
From Associated Press
April 16, 2006 11:45 AM EDT
I’m glad to see while it is definately Copts who are doing nasty things in the story it is only _apparently_ Muslims who are responding in kind from the other side of the police line:
“Later, a huge mob of what appeared to be Muslim protesters charged the police cordon from the other side.”
Nothing like a quiet spin to make sure it’s blamed on the right people.
And Nahla: in post # 14 you make the statement:
“This is very saddening for egyptians because the majority don’t actually support this sort of behaviour, a point of view that i’m sure will change with the increase of this sort of thing.”
I submit to you it is not enough to just fail to “support this sort of behaviour.” If you want the situation to change you must oppose such behaviour. No, I’m not in Alexandria to stand up against the violence of fools and bigots directed against members of a different religion. …But I was in post 9/11 America standing up against the violence of fools and bigots against Islam.
April 16th, 2006 at 7:17 pm
Finally found something….Qaradawi talking about this on Al Jazeera……damn it I really need to concentrate to figure out what the hell he’s saying
April 16th, 2006 at 7:34 pm
Uchuck…, I agree that such behaviour should be opposed and am hoping that it is in Egypt. While MB are now mainstraem in Egypt, they still don’t really represent the majority, who hate their guts. What that majority can do is not much. See the problem with Egypt is you get angry and sad in your house. Once you open the door and go out, there’s nothing you can do. There’s no way you can set up an organisation or form a political party or anything that we in the west see as the first step to opposing or supporting something. So frustrated they may get, but act? That might take a lot longer.
I also think this is why blogging is a big deal there. The best blogs come out of Egypt because they have so much to say, this is their only available way of doing something.
Nahla
April 16th, 2006 at 7:39 pm
I can’t figure out what the hell he’s saying.
Thanks Tommy, for the quote!
April 16th, 2006 at 9:04 pm
Sandmonkey, you moron. There is no “eye for an eye” principal in Christianity. I dare say you are speaking about historical Judaism… and of course, Islam.
April 16th, 2006 at 9:12 pm
UN and/or NATO forces are required to intervene and keep the peace.
Mubarak and his police drones are incompetent and incapable. Most of the Government is already infiltrated with Islamists groups who will eventually kill him or turn it into another Islamist regime. There is no hope in that corrupt Government.
The US should establish more military bases in Egypt and the region to maintain the peace.
April 16th, 2006 at 10:47 pm
Hal ,SM and likeminded bloggers,
Happy Easter enjoy a chocolate egg or two and chin up.
You’re doing a great job.Stay safe
April 16th, 2006 at 11:14 pm
The reason for all this shit:
ignorance + poverty + repression + corruption + lousy government = hatred + intolerance
What is happening here, is just a result of general degeneration of many social things in Egypt. Let’s not try to draw the wrong picture. Egypt is not Lebanon. People were never secterian, and muslims and christians have always been integrated living together. This is why there were historically never predominantly coptic places, because the copts were safe and never needed to cluster. Certainly many things are unfair currently for the christians and also for many Egyptians, but under no way there is repression for them. Just don’t overblow things too much, till you believe them in the end. Egypt last problem might be sectarian problems
April 16th, 2006 at 11:21 pm
Egypt Sucks!
April 16th, 2006 at 11:34 pm
N #39,
“Well Odin, it’s like this sharia law is not actually practised in many arab countries. I know the Gulf countries are still quite fond of it and use it regularly to opress and instill fear in their people.”
“That is not islam and most muslims don’t actually condone the countries that claim to be muslim and follow sharia, ie saudi etc.”
First of all you aren’t denying that sharia is a part islam. But you’re saying that the implementation of it is not a part of islam. Isn’t that self-contradicting?
The Jizya is a tax for “the people of the book” that lives in contries conquered by the muslims. The people of the book have the choice to cough up and accept the muslims superiority or to loose their heads. The idolaters(hindus, buddhist etc.) aren’t that privilegded.
N, still in #39
“Your question is like me asking a christian or a jew about the verses in the torah and bible that are not politically correct and that call for killing infidels or non believers etc.”
No it is not. There are no commandments in christianity about killing people. The only religious dogma that is kept from the old testament (that contains a lot of weird stuff ) are the ten commandments. All the ceremonial stuff has been discarded.
N,
“Such verses were relevant to their time only.”
I thought the koran was considered to the eternal words of God?
N,
“A minority of fanatics and idiots hijacked a religion and quoted verses to support their idiotic arguments and actions.”
I don’t buy it.
N,
“Religion in general is having a belief and not imposing it on anyone else.”
I wish that was true. But it is not. There are tons of examples. Take the deathpenalty for apostacy in islam. The Spanish inqusition. Just to mention a few.
N,
“It is true believe it or not that the majority of muslims are peaceful and anti extremism, they even suffered at the extremists’ hands way before any bombings started to take place in the west.”
Sure. I believe you.
N,
“Oh and your comments do make me despair:”
I’m sorry about that Nahla. But i just can’t find anything remotely close to peaceful coexistence between islam and any other culture bordering up to it.
Hal wrote
“…here’s my attempt to show you that it can’t be THAT wishful if I’m here, posting this right now, and bloggers like SM are out there, bringing this to the attention of these peaceful Muslims who cancel out their claim of peacefulness by remaining silent.”
Fair enough. There ARE moderate muslims. I’ll admit that. But i doubt they are a majority. And as long as they don’t speak up because they’re afraid of being killed what does it matter then?
I’d like to hear Hal’s and Nahla’s comment on this article.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/02/19/nsharia19.xml
.
April 16th, 2006 at 11:36 pm
S@11:14 said
“Egypt last problem might be sectarian problems”
Uh, when I find something that boggles my mind, I tend to poke at it. (I know, leave it alone or it’ll get infected.) So I should just ignore the strange behavior so it will heal itself.
And I might be able to if it was someone like Ahmanutjob in Iran doing his chest pounding dance. But this is about people in the street. They go to work, eat, sleep then work again. Just like most of us work-a-day people.
So, in poking at my little sore that is currently being called Alexandria we’re off to search on recent past. Just got warmed up but it’s not being fun.
October 21, 2005
Riot that left three dead and more than 150 injured. (The CD thing)
Thursday November 3, 2005
After deadly sectarian riots, Copts and Muslims are pointing fingers
…
“But for many others, the Muslim Brotherhood is part of the problem. Among the many rumors surrounding the riot’s cause is the story that a flyer was distributed in the neighborhood condemning the play on behalf of the Brotherhood. The flyer reportedly included the group’s slogan, “Islam is the solution.” ”
…
” Dawoud accuses security services of “giving the green light to the mob” to attack the church, while the release says it fears “impending ethnic cleansing of Christians in Egypt.” ”
Thursday, January 19, 2006
Egyptian church clash injures 12
“At least 12 people were injured in clashes in Upper Egypt when a group of Muslims attempted to stop Christians converting a house into a church.”
…
“Police arrested 10 young men and the owners of the house, reports say.”
So, obviously there’s no problem there. Keep movin folks. Nothin here to see.
BTW,. I have no idea if my font manipulation will be effective.
April 16th, 2006 at 11:47 pm
As you can see Aslan - there are no sectarian problems in Egypt, right?
You are being so silly and biased!
Those incidents you cite are:
-Not representative of Islam or Muslims.
-Perpetrated by US and Zionist forces to disrupt the social harmony that Egyptians, Copts and Muslims, live in.
-They are merely exagerated by the Christians in order to provoke the Great Satan to intervene and occupy Egypt like in Iraq.
-Were instigated by expatriate Copts who only want to destroy Egypt’s image to the outside world.
-The Copts are the ones who are preparing a for a Civil war. After all, they are the ones who are stockpiling weapons in their monasteries and churches (This really has been said and is believed by many muslims in Egypt even though anyone and their mother can enter any monastary in Egypt)
-These attacks were only commited by “mentally unstable” or “certifiably insane” individuals .
So, Aslan please quit being Islamophobic.
*#!#@#!!!!!!!!!!!!!
April 16th, 2006 at 11:57 pm
Gee thanks, Egypter. Now I have to change my depends from laughing too hard.
Considering some of the posts, (or point counter-point dialog) I think we need some graphic or auditory additions to the blog capability.
Like Biff! Pow!! balloons to go along with the retorts people have. Wouldn’t that make it fun? Naw too much like a forum medium.
April 17th, 2006 at 12:19 am
It’s a whole lot of fun, actually, reading this “argument” between a western guy sitting in front of his computer screen, and an egyptian having lived in his country for decades, about how the majority of egyptians are like.
His nickname “Odin Lever” indicates he is not to be taken seriously, and his comments leaves no doubt.
April 17th, 2006 at 12:56 am
This comes back to a problem. Muslims continue to insist that the actions of these fanatics don’t represent Islam. Fine, I accept that they don’t represent the Islamic values that moderate Muslims possess. However, it is difficult for someone not to notice the fact that wherever the Muslims are, trouble is also.
From Pakistan and India to Saudi Arabia to Iraq to Egypt to Morocco and Algeria to Indonesia and Thailand to Sudan to Nigeria there is trouble and the perpetrators of this trouble cite their religion as the source of their deeds.
The trouble is that such fanaticism is not isolated. In fact, it seems to be ubiquituous among the Ummah. So while I accept that their practice of Islam does not speak to your Islamic ideal, it clearly does speak to theirs. It does not spring out of thin air…
I must also mention that many in the West are tired of hearing the poverty excuse. The individuals who attacked the United States on 9/11 were mostly from upper middle class Saudi families who live as well, if not better, than most Americans. Furthermore, there are plenty of people in Latin America who are poor and have as many legitimate grievances with the United States as an Arab country does. They don’t respond by flying planes into buildings or other such extremism. Poverty may be a factor in increasing the likelihood of terrorism in a society but it is hardly a complete explanation.
April 17th, 2006 at 1:18 am
This is what the rest of the world thinks of Islam:
http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/extreme_mohammed/
Islam is a problem for all of the non-Muslim world. They have a problem with Jews, Christians, Atheists, Hindus, Buddhists, etc., etc.
The world must unit together against Islam. Perhaps it’s time they get a taste of their own medicine!
April 17th, 2006 at 2:39 am
Wait, this is Alexandria, right? Back when the Romans ruled the place, there were riots all the time between different groups–Greeks vs. Jews mostly. And then between different Christian sects. The more things change, the more they stay insane.
So now what, will there be Coptic suicide bombers in the mosques?
April 17th, 2006 at 3:35 am
From the comfort of my home in Canada, I can safely say that Islam is not the problem.
Sandmonkey’s not a problem and most of the posters disrespect the extremist jackasses as much as I do.
Tommy, you may have forgotten about Serbia … one of the actions when Clinton sicced the U.S. forced on all the enemies of Muslim states.
Like the Copts, my Pascha (Easter) is not until next Sunday.
My question. If Jesus is the Prince of Peace, as we Christians believe, then what improvement did Mo bring to the philosophy 700 years later?
I’m sure the answer lies in Arab history somewhere (I admit, I’m ignorant of those fact), where they got fed up by being treated as second-class citizens. The response, was to get jack up the violence and behead the infidels.
Right or wrong?
Who determines the definition of infidel? Imams? Is that because they’re considered wiser and therefore the natural leaders?
If that’s the best leadership the ME can produce, God (or Allah) help us all.
April 17th, 2006 at 3:37 am
Sandmonkey, like I told BP, stay strong! You’re a very rational person! Egypt’s blessed to have you! This won’t be the end of violence, but this won’t be the end of Egypt as we know it! Have a Happy Easter and God Bless You!
April 17th, 2006 at 4:44 am
I have quoted several comments from here in my new blog. Again, because I am hoping for a discussion I hope you will stop by, asll of you, but especially the saner of you.
Maybe I can point out my position in reference to two recent quotes. I know ‘freedom warrior’ is wrong, and the hate jumps off the page. But Tommy’s quotes @ 12:56 — particularly the first three paragraphs, resonate so strongly. As I asked on a couple of other blogs today, could it be the people we like and admire, the Hals, SMs, BPs, and the rest, who are, in fact, the ones misinterpreting Islam? Are they perhaps the tiny minority? If so, what does that imply — and that is NOT a rhetorical question, but the one that keeps tormenting me.
April 17th, 2006 at 4:46 am
Dammit “freedom warrior”, you’re an idiot. You don’t even know who “they” are.
set you free said,
“I’m sure the answer lies in Arab history somewhere (I admit, I’m ignorant of those fact), where they got fed up by being treated as second-class citizens. The response, was to get jack up the violence and behead the infidels.
Right or wrong?”
It’s probably not a good idea to get jacked up and cut peoples heads off. It isn’t a good idea to attack people who could (and will) wipe you off the face of the earth. Right and wrong depends on your culture. I am with you on the god (or allah, anyone at this point) help us thing though.
April 17th, 2006 at 4:50 am
Set you free,
I haven’t forgotten about Serbia. I think you’ve forgotten something about Serbia. The Serbians attacked not only Bosnian Muslims and Kosovars but Christian Croatians as well. The powderkeg that was Yugoslavia had a lot to do with ethnicity rather than simply religion. Religion was only an issue so far as it served to denote ethnicity in that case.
By contrast, in Indonesia or Thailand or the Philippines, for instance, you will see Muslims attacking Christians and Buddhists of the same ethnicity. It is religious difference rather than ethnic difference that is the important factor in such violence.
April 17th, 2006 at 5:03 am
Sorry for the sloppy writing of my last post. I am getting tired, so please excuse me.
I wanted to recommend a book to everybody. This books is probably the most fair-minded piece of writing I’ve ever read on the subject as to how this mess we are in all got started. The book looks and Islam and the West and while reasonable and understanding to both sides, its conclusions are not kind to either. It is an old book, but still amazingly relevant to today. I received a recommendation to read this book from a certain, well-known Jordanian blogger:
The book is “Islam in Modern History” and it was written by Wilfred Cantwell Smith in 1957. If you can find it, please read it. Its conclusions are much more difficult to explain than I can get into here. I think everybody, both Muslims and Westerners, can learn a ton from this book.
April 17th, 2006 at 5:04 am
Boy my writing in that last post was horrid. I need to go to sleep. Good night!
April 17th, 2006 at 5:21 am
Tommy:
I haven’t forgotten the early details, but there was one recent story that caught my attention.
A couple of Muslim boys went swimming in the river when they were told not to. One boy drowned and told his mother a couple of Serbian dogs had chased them into the river, which was bordering the Kosovo/Serbia border.
The resulting rampage (I believe this happened last year) left many dead and, I believe 54 Orthodox churches were either set afire or vandalized.
The United Nations peacekeeping force investigated and the boy finally admitted, about a week later, he had fabricated the story.
Some bloggers were even questioning how the boy knew it was a Serbian dog.
Considering the atrocities that had been committed against the Muslim populace, I’m sure the adult population was ready to believe anything. But, the damage was already done.
This is the type of destroy first and ask questions later methodology the world is finally starting to open its eyes to.
I’m not Serbian, but considering what has happened in Alexandria the past few days, it definitely raises the possibility there had been similar provocations that went unreported.
I understand Milosevic was a former member of the Communist Party, so it’s no surprise he used a heavy-handed method by stirring up nationalistic fervor.
When I was younger, I knew a woman (friend of my mothers) who had lived in Yugoslavia. She told me she liked the Muslims there more than the Christians, even though she attended the same Christian church I did in Canada.
April 17th, 2006 at 6:30 am
It was said here: “hate jump off the page.”
It may have been hate. But I would like to tell everyone here that the feeling about Islam and Muslims is not hate.
It is fear.
Now for anyone who has studyed history or has taken courses in college about how peoples minds work or how groups of people can be motivated or influanced, they will know that fear is the greatest emotion (as in most likely to produce action) that a person or group can have.
Until there are concrete visible actions taken by Muslims and/or those who claim to be Islamic that show they are against violence and will stop it from happening (anywhere) they (Muslims) and Islam will continue to be feared.
Americans have feared very little in our short history. But one good example was that the early American immigrants (and yes, they were illigal) feared the American Indians. Without getting into if it was justified or not, the Indian was feared.
The answer to that fear was to kill the Indian or imprison them.
If the current world situation regarding Islam and Muslims continue, Americans will demand the same solution again.
Islam is the Muslims worse enemy and Islam will destroy the Muslims.
By our hand, unless Muslims re-write Islam and throw out all the Islamic teachers, preachers, imans, mullahs that will not denounce violence, hate, intolerance, and the parts of the Qur’an that espouse those things.
Otherwise Islam and Muslims will force their own descruction, by their own hands and others hands.
Papa Ray
West Texas
USA
April 17th, 2006 at 8:03 am
If your going to nuke Mecca atleast for this atleast aim for the Kaba. Vaporize that Rock they worship (wich they are still in denial for). I just want to hear muslims realize that if god lived in a Rock it would be prepared to whitstand the future that “allah” forsees and thats an ICBM with multiple independant reentry nuclear warheads and turn that patch of desert into glass.
Apparently you cant fullfill islam if you dont do pilgrimage to that damned rock.
All that is left for them is blow themselves up. Yay. self destructing terrorists.
Let us all Vaporize Allah and show Allah wich is mightier.
An Angel of Destruction
(carrying an ICBM)
April 17th, 2006 at 8:53 am
We are so sick and tired of Islam and it’s problems here in the west. We are going to expell the Islamists if don’t fix themselves. They seem to enjoy freedom and the easy life here but.they should pack up and leave to an islamic hell hole like Saudi Arabia.
April 17th, 2006 at 9:02 am
This argument is both irrelevant and offensive. Just look around the world at any place where the Muslim infestation has spread. Just look at 1400 years of history. How long can some of you deny the obvious?
There is no way that civilization is safe as long as Islam exists. There is simply no alternative to the destruction of Islam and all of its savage and barbaric followers. It matters not in the least what individual savages choose to call themselves - Wahabis, Salafis, Shiites, etc. et ad nauseum.
It is long past time for action. Islam and its followers must be extirpated from the Earth.
ONWARD CHRISTIAN SOLDIERS!
April 17th, 2006 at 9:15 am
@Christian crusader, like if you are any different from the fanatic muslims.
April 17th, 2006 at 9:28 am
Duhhh, Suzanne… who’s like the fanatic muslims? who flies planes into our buildings in the name of their religion? who kidnaps and beheads people? who is barbaric other than Islam?
April 17th, 2006 at 10:38 am
#67
“It’s a whole lot of fun, actually, reading this “argument” between a western guy sitting in front of his computer screen, and an egyptian having lived in his country for decades, about how the majority of egyptians are like”
The argument is what constitutes “mainstream islam” and “fundamentalistic islam”. Up to this point nobody has pointed out the distinction between those two. Try two read the comments before you respond to them. And try to deal with the issue instead of throwing mud.
“His nickname “Odin Lever” indicates he is not to be taken seriously, and his comments leaves no doubt. ”
Oh really? And why is that?
April 17th, 2006 at 11:55 am
Roora
“SM ., when I ws asking what was your religon ? I was really asking because you were talking as if you weren’t and honestly I thought you ae not so I was gonna tell you simply you didn’t read quran to know or judge”
You do not need the Bible to judge the behaviour of Christians, nor the Torah to judge the behaviour of Jews.
You do not need to know the Koran to judge a murderer. You do not need to know the hadith to know that these attacks follow the trend of outreigous disgusting attacks from idiotic, one-sided, terrorist Islamo-fascists. You just need to look at Islam, look at people like you who dismiss murderers, and you have done enough research.
Look, it is a flawed and foolish argument to say that I need to be a Muslim to be able to critisise Islam.
April 17th, 2006 at 12:16 pm
58# Brain Fart:
There is no “eye for an eye” principal in Judaism, however there is also no “turn the other cheek” principal either. Jewish people can defend themselves, whereas Christians are not permitted to.
April 17th, 2006 at 12:52 pm
#61 ..S Says: April 16th, 2006 at 11:14 pm
“The reason for all this shit:
ignorance + poverty + repression + corruption + lousy government = hatred + intolerance”
This the best summary I read anywhere. Thank you.
April 17th, 2006 at 1:27 pm
One of the problems that Cantwell Smith’s book discusses is that Muslims, in recent times, have been between two prevailaing forces. The first is western secularism and liberalism which tends to demand that the Muslim simply give up his beliefs and become irreligious. This is unacceptable to even moderate Muslims. The other force is dynamism. Dynamism is represented by groups like the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas, al-Qaeda, and other like-minded organizations. It tends to ground it itself in rejectionism. It is against the non-Muslim, against the West, against moderation. It defines itself by being against things. They are referred to as dynamic because action seems to be an end in itself. Thus we see the focus by these groups on jihad.
Muslims, I believe, need a third alternative. Something that represents a more moderate Islam. Something that is richer than rejectionism. Something that, while not the same as western civilization, can be a complementary force in the world and a partner with it. It may be more intellectual than those dynamic movements but it cannot be so much a thinking man’s movement that it doesn’t have appeal to the a wide section of the Islamic world. Unfortunately, this is something that has to come from within the Islamic world, it cannot be imposed from without. Muslims, by and large, don’t trust the western world and some of this mistrust is, because of colonialism, not irrational. (Some of it, of course, is irrational.)
Like I said, I strongly recommend Smith’s book. It is excellent and will enlighten both westerners and Muslims.
April 17th, 2006 at 1:28 pm
Sorry for the typos, I’m still groggy. I really shouldn’t post until I’m fully awake and should probably bother to proofread some this stuff. Forgive me.
April 17th, 2006 at 2:27 pm
Odin, just read the article and i probably believe it to be true as i’m living in Britain. The problem with that survey is the fact it didn’t distinguish between Arab muslims and asian muslims, who are the majority of muslims here. Now if we’re going to talk about Arabs, i’m sooooooo sure they wouldn’t want to implement sharia law anywhere. Except of course those belonging to jihadi groups or ideologies. Now there are a lot of things to consider, such as culture, before you even attempt to explain the different interpretations of islam between arabs and asians. Without offending anyone, Asians have a completely literal and sometimes wrong interpretation of the quran. Most arabs and asians clash over this to the extent that arabs often think asian muslims are following a different book! I read an article that said Egypt is going to send Azhar scholars to mosques in the west, including London, to monitor what the asian imams are preeching and educate the asian community about the true meanings of the quran. That doesn’t exactly fill me with hope but at least it won’t be the blind leading the blind. The partially blind maybe;)
As to your other comments about the quran being the eternal word of god, i’m not saying it isn’t but like the bible and the torah, with regards to killing infidels etc, that was only relevent to that time when these religions were still being established, not that that makes it any better but all religions have similar texts when it comes to this.
The jizya thing i know is not implemented in most Arab countries, i don’t know about saudi though. And yeah, you could say it was a part of the quran that’s been discarded or made redundant by social changes etc, which by the way all non jihadis, who are also the majority, and even religious scholars condone. Most muslims believe that if it leeds to progress it can be discarded or if it’s no longer relevent. That’s actually quite common.
Your points are all valid but they show that you’re not familiar with arabs or moderate muslims. If you ever lived in an arab country you’d see what muslims are really like. Last night on aljazeera there were protests by Egyptians against all the violence. They were christian and muslim and they were even confronting the violent rallies and shouting out things like”this isn’t us” and long live the crescent with the cross. That really cheered me up. It’s not the majority Odin and it really is a minority of hated jihadis that are doing this. Now all your points about sharia etc, i’m not a scholar so i’ve explained them best i can, but thanks for telling me what the Jizya is.
Shinto,
“If your going to nuke Mecca atleast for this atleast aim for the Kaba. Vaporize that Rock they worship (wich they are still in denial for). I just want to hear muslims realize that if god lived in a Rock it would be prepared to whitstand the future that “allah” forsees and thats an ICBM with multiple independant reentry nuclear warheads and turn that patch of desert into glass.
Apparently you cant fullfill islam if you dont do pilgrimage to that damned rock.
All that is left for them is blow themselves up. Yay. self destructing terrorists.
Let us all Vaporize Allah and show Allah wich is mightier.
An Angel of Destruction”
Your ignorance speaks for itself, do you know that you’re the same as the people you’re criticizing. Yes the Jihadis. Nuking a “rock”, well that should solve everything, genius, you should copyright that one. Honey, grow up, it’s bigots like you that make everyone else look bad.
Nahla
April 17th, 2006 at 2:30 pm
Oh and btw Odin, if sharia law ever came here, i’m gone.
Nahla
April 17th, 2006 at 2:38 pm
# Steven Says:
April 17th, 2006 at 12:16 pm
58# Brain Fart:
There is no “eye for an eye” principal in Judaism, however there is also no “turn the other cheek” principal either. Jewish people can defend themselves, whereas Christians are not permitted to.
erm. I’m afraid you’re wrong on both counts.
The Torah actually does say punishment should be meeted out in proportion to the crime. It in fact does say eye for eye, tooth for tooth, but it is a colloquialism and not to be understood as permission to maim one another. It means don’t require more as punishment than the crime demands. Don’t require a life for a small injury, don’t require a fortune for stolen bread. etc.
And the Christian principle of ‘turn the other cheek’ is not a forbiddance of self defense! It is a way of living your daily life without holding a grudge or seeking revenge. But if someone is about to harm my family, you had better believe I will use everything in my power to prevent them, even if it means killing them before they can kill my family.
April 17th, 2006 at 2:39 pm
Last night on aljazeera there were protests by Egyptians against all the violence. They were christian and muslim and they were even confronting the violent rallies and shouting out things like”this isn’t us” and long live the crescent with the cross.
Sadly, it sounds as if this was entirely staged by the government to put on a happy face.
April 17th, 2006 at 2:42 pm
“The jizya thing i know is not implemented in most Arab countries, i don’t know about saudi though”
Jizya is not implemented in any Islamic country at the present moment. It is certainly not implemented in Saudi, which does not have (nor allow) any non-Muslim citizens. Taxing non-citizens who aren’t Muslims would clearly not be attractive to foreign workers who supply so much of the country’s labor and technical expertise. It would be a disincentive to work in Saudi. So that isn’t an option, either…
Still, there has been talk from Islamic fundamentalists in groups such as Hamas about wanting to bring it back. At this time, it is not politically expedient for even fundamentalist governments to do, though. Groups like Hamas are trying to appeal to the Christian population in their society for support rather than alienate them. Later on, if groups like these cement their control on these societies and rid themselves of democratic institutions which make votes from non-Muslims important and keep them in check, it may be a different story.
April 17th, 2006 at 2:54 pm
Hi all:
The original post dealt with the knife-wielding idiots attacking a Christian church in Alexandria, Egypt.
The trial of Zacharias Moussaui, one of the 9/11 conspirators, is being held in Alexandria, Virginia.
I know this sounds insane, my Egyptian friends, but is there a connection?
At least, there’s some symbolism involved here. Even though the attack was carried out on a different continent, are the Christians in Egypt paying for what’s happening in the U.S.?
Are these extremists really that ignorant as to build a string out of two similarly-named cities?
April 17th, 2006 at 2:57 pm
Again many good comments. I’d ignore the hate-mongering trolls, but I can’t resist pointing out that accepting and Islamizing the “Kaaba” — while it was taken too far — is little more than what Christians did be Christianizing the Winter Solstice Festival by making it Christmas — origninally it was believed that Yeshua bar-Joseph was born in the spring, but the pagans loved their festival, so the Christians took it over. The Arabian pagans loved the Kaaba, so Mohammed incorporated it in his religion as well.
Tommy: I too had the same idea of a moderate, ‘reformed’ Islam. Sadly, I keep on seeing no evidence that such is possible. (This is one of the points I am trying to discuss on the new blog.) The trouble is that, once you dethrone the Qur’an from its position as the ‘unchangeable final revelation of god’ you have to take the humane, decent, and admirable ideas in it as your basis for the new religion, and scrap the hateful ones. I keep on asking Muslims what those ideas are, what would be left, what is the positive side of Islam, and I keep on looking myself. When I ask, the silence is deafening. And when I look myself, I do see some good ideas, but they are not ones that you need a religious sanction for.
On my blog I reference a conversation between Irshad Manji and Taslima Nasrin, and quote one paragraph from it. I’d suggest that all of you check out my quote and go to the original.
http://jrbentn.blogspot.com/2006/04/very-bad-weekend.html
Nahla, you make some interesting comments, but I have to disagree with you about ‘arabs not wanting to implement Sharia’ After all, the Wahhabists are Saudi, and it is they who have been the teachers of many of the asians. Pakistan is, religiously, almost a satellite of KSA. I’d also suggest you check out FFE’s comments on the ‘peace demonstration.’ She tends to be a little more exciteable, but she makes some good points.
You are someone I’d particularly like to see joining the conversation on my blog. You are someone who can definitely show me where I am wrong, if I am, as are SM and some of the other regulars here. (And Chrsitian Crusader and Shinto, if your comments are the same there as here, they will last for about 30 secs after I see them. I don’t need hate-mongering idiots there. Papa Ray, I find your comments frequently annoying, but useful, and there are days I come close to agreeing with you. You express an honest and needed point of view, not like those two, so if you stop by, I’ll argue but leave your statements.)
April 17th, 2006 at 3:03 pm
“Set you free”
Yes, it does sound crazy and IS. Pure coincuidence in the names. While I do think, sadly, that the Egyptian rioters are far more ‘mainstream’ than i would like, the Al Qaedaists are completely different, and few of the rioters would support that interpretation. (And, for that matter, Moussaui was such an idiot that Al Qaeda kicked him out, and someone sympathetic to them would be more likely to attack the courtroom and hope he was caught in the crossfire, just to get rid of him.)
April 17th, 2006 at 3:37 pm
Hey Jim:
Never let the facts stand in the way of a good story.
I can believe the level of ignorance among Islamic loonies is so great that the Alexandria connection is possible.
April 17th, 2006 at 3:43 pm
Set you free:
It does sound insane and there is no connection.
Prup:
“Sadly, I keep on seeing no evidence that such is possible. (This is one of the points I am trying to discuss on the new blog.)”
I strongly recommend you read Smith’s book if you can locate it. One of the reasons that no such movement has arisen is because Muslims, as well as non-Muslims, lack insight into what is even fundamentally wrong in the modern history of Islam. What is the malaise at the heart of Islam today? Smith was an impressively insightful individual and his conclusions transcend the thinking of both your average Muslim and average Westerner or, for that matter, your average Muslim and Western intellectual as well. He doesn’t resort to cheap appeals to emotion to advance his arguments, he doesn’t take sides, he doesn’t indulge in apologetics for Islam or for the West and he has no agenda. His book will answer a hundred questions and leave you asking a thousand more.
As for your comment:
“but I can’t resist pointing out that accepting and Islamizing the “Kaaba” — while it was taken too far — is little more than what Christians did be Christianizing the Winter Solstice Festival by making it Christmas —”
Yes, this is a good point. The whole issue of the Kaaba/idolatry one is something I like to throw at those who attempt to argue that the Christian Trinity is polytheism. Neither is actually true.
Though I must say frankly, if we are going to be engaging in idolatry, we could at least be prostrating to something worthy of our undying worship: like the lovely, Hal, for instance:
http://www.ramblinghal.blogspot.com/
April 17th, 2006 at 3:48 pm
Tommy:
What is funny about the Muslim idea of the Trinity is that Mohammed (or Allah if you insist, but I wouldn’t insult a diety by thinking he could be this dumb) seems to think that the Trinity is God-Jesus-MARY (I’ll hunt the reference down later, but the cats are calling.)
The trouble with prostrating to Hal is not that she doesn’t deserve it, but if you prostrate yourself, you are unable to look at the object of your devotion — and it is a difficult position to do other things from as well. On the other hand, upside-down prostration gives certain definite possibilities…
April 17th, 2006 at 3:52 pm
Prup, that’s an understandable misconception given that Catholics do in fact pray to Mary.
April 17th, 2006 at 4:10 pm
Catholics pray to Mary as they pray to all the saints. They don’t consider them divine, but rather as people in heaven who can use their influence on Earth. (Boy do they. My ‘other mother,’ Claire — I was raised in a lesbian household in Suburbia in the 50s — used to have St. Anthony backing up Peewee Reese and Jackie Robinson when the BROOKLYN Dodgers were playing. And I remember a friend of the family saying — during a big hurricane that was threatening the area — “Don’t worry, I put St. Anthony’s statue outside my window, so if it hits, he’ll get wet too.”)
April 17th, 2006 at 4:13 pm
The holy trinity is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Mary in considered the mother of God and through the Holy Spirit gave form to the Son.
The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and gives life to all, especially spiritual life.
Through the Holy Spirit, the prophets speak, therefore the prophets spoke not from themselves, but under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
“All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit shall not be forgiven unto men.”
– Jesus, quoted in Matthew 12:31.
All that takes us into a spiritual realm, one that cannot be scientifically proven but which, no doubt exists and holds our universe together.
April 17th, 2006 at 4:22 pm
Prup/aka Jim Benton,
Glad to see people like you on this blog and i’ll certainly be visiting your blog and posting a great deal. Now with reference to the Wahabbist saudi, most saudis are not actually wahabbi and, particularly new generations, hate their regime and are very anti wahabbism. Such wahabbism is also hated in the rest of the arab world. It’s not even a minority but a miniscule minority that are indeed wahabbi. In Egypt and most of the Arab world little was known about wahabbism till recently, because of the whole terrorism thing, the concensus was that wahabbism is in fact non islamic and some even thought it was, wait for it, a jewish sect to which saudi princes belonged. Wahabbists and saudis in general don’t really have much influence on the Arab world and are not generally known for their cultural or social influence. Fundamentalism is always thought to have come to us Arabs from the saudis and Asians. Of course it’s not as simple as that but i’m trying to put it in context of social and political factors. For instance Egypt was always very secular and the first hijabs hit Egypt in the mid 60s when many people returned frrom working in saudi. these people also had strange views on religion and were seen as “weird” by the majority. A lot of the older generations can still remember the massive social change from secular to religious and now of course to fanatic.This has of course changed but the majority of Egyptians, regardless of religion are still very anti wahabbism and other similar ideologies which are seen as alien to them.
elengil,
“Last night on aljazeera there were protests by Egyptians against all the violence. They were christian and muslim and they were even confronting the violent rallies and shouting out things like”this isn’t us” and long live the crescent with the cross.
Sadly, it sounds as if this was entirely staged by the government to put on a happy face.”
I don’t think that particular rally was fake, it was actually very spontaneous. People who lived in the area were looking from their balconies and joining in and others were taking to the streets in a very unorganized fashion. The fake rally will happen and will be led by Azhar muftis and Pope Shenouda.I think it’s happening tomorrow.
Nahla
April 17th, 2006 at 4:59 pm
Prup,
You’re from New York City?
NEW YORK CITY! . . . get a rope . . .
I was originally born in Texas. I now live in the Pacific Northwest. I’m an undergrad going to a university in Oregon but I’ve lived most of my life in Washington state.
April 17th, 2006 at 9:35 pm
N,
Thanks for your reply, and thanks for extensive comment on the link to the article i posted.
April 18th, 2006 at 2:23 am
Set you free:
There is CONSIDERABLE doubt that a ’spiritual realm’ exists, far more that it “holds our universe together.”
I certainly doubt it, and consider this sort of belief is a millstone around humanity.
Nahla:
It strikes me that unsophisticated — not unintelligent — Muslims are always vulnerable to the argument “Bur you aren’t religious enough’ and this can be translated into a call to the sort of fanaticism we both decry. (It is after all, easier to riot than to ‘reform your life.’) I’m going to try to discuss this vulnerability on my blog later tonight, if I get a chance, and I look forwrad to your comments on it and other things.
As for Wahabbists seeming ‘weird’ I think it is because they ARE weird. Have you ever come across the Islam Q&A site:
http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng
You have to check this one out. Its hilarious. Especially look at the discussion about ‘excessive laughter’ being haram
http://63.175.194.25/books/shakawa/english.html
but warning, it may cause the very thing it cautions against.
April 18th, 2006 at 6:38 am
Prup:
How does the search for truth place a millstone around humanity?
You have God-given free will. You can make whatever choices you like to make.
If you make bad choices, you suffer for it. If you make good choices, you can find true happiness. That’s about as tough as it gets.
I find my personal voyage very liberating.
I may even be considered insane by the Wahhabists because I like to laugh … not excessively, mind you … there has to be time to help those who ask for it.
Be brave. What you pray and wish for with a pure heart will come true.
April 18th, 2006 at 2:05 pm
Prup, how can i possibly thank you, i’ve never laughed so much in my life. That site is now on my favourites, the possibilities are endless!
“The believer’s heart is spiritually corrupted by too much laughter, and he opens his mouth too wide, instead of being serious and of sound character.”
“Staying up to commit sin, such as staying up to watch movies, to play haraam games such as cards, or to consume the flesh of others by gossiping and backbiting and slandering, and other kinds of sin. This kind of staying up is haraam, and those who do it are sinners who deserve the punishment of Allaah”
Oh my god, who writes this stuff, oh and i look forward to checking out your blog later today if i can. It would be an interesting angle to look at rioting as a way of compensating for your lack of religiousness.
Nahla
April 18th, 2006 at 2:27 pm
I didn’t get the post up yet. If I finish my morningt blog-tour befire the cats start yelling for breakfast, I’ll get it started.
Hoped you’d like the Sheik. There’s another one, not tecnically Wahabbist, but even stricter, called “Ask Imam”
(yes, stricter, no tv at all) but he doesn’t have the inspired lunacy of the first. (He’s the source for the name of my blog, however.)
April 18th, 2006 at 5:54 pm
Now, back to the topic of Alexandria.
I may have found another explanation for this inexplicable act.
In the ancient Christian church, there were five patriarchates (adminstrative areas based in capital cities): Rome, Constantinople (modern-day Istanbul), Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem.
So, Sandmonkey, can we revisit your theory of Egypt following Lebanon and Sudan.
Look for yourself and see which ancient Christian capitals are now under Muslim control, taken through violent means in the last 1400 years.
Is Alexandria just the latest on their hit-list?
July 11th, 2006 at 4:52 pm
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