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Monday, 17 Apr 2006
Speaking through a loudspeaker, a Hamas activist said: "If
our people starve, we will blow up our bodies in the depths of
the Zionist entity."
Today :
A Palestinian suicide bomber blew himself up near a fast-food
restaurant in Tel Aviv on Monday, wounding at least 35 people, police
and medics said.The bomber struck the same restaurant, "The Mayor's Felafel," that
was hit by an attacker on Jan. 19, medics said. In that attack, 20
people were wounded. The restaurant is in the bustling Neve Shaanan
neighborhood near Tel Aviv's central bus station.There was no immediate claim of responsibility.
Hmmmm….
Update: Nevermind. Hamas didn't do it, but gave their blessing anyway:
The new Palestinian government, led by Hamas, called the attack a legitimate response to Israeli "aggression."
[...]
The response by Hamas leaders represented a sharp departure from the
previous Palestinian leadership's immediate condemnations of such
attacks."We think that this operation … is a direct result of the policy
of the occupation and the brutal aggression and siege committed against
our people," said Khaled Abu Helal, spokesman for the Hamas-led
Interior Ministry.Earlier, Moussa abu Marzouk, a Hamas leader abroad, told Al-Jazeera
television that "the Israeli side must feel what the Palestinian feels,
and the Palestinian defends himself as much as he can."
Very smart Hamas. Very smart. Now you are proving to the world that you are indeed a government of terrorists. Good Job. Keep it up!
April 17th, 2006 at 11:19 am
And Iranian regime gave them 50 million bucks (while the Iranian people are getting poorer on a daily basis) and other Persian gulf sheykhdoms also pledged financial aids to the PA.
What does PA do? Blowing up innocent people through out Israel
Shame on them!
April 17th, 2006 at 11:19 am
Islamic Jihad just claimed this!
April 17th, 2006 at 12:06 pm
6 dead so far 3 doz wounded.
terrorism = war
just wait till they have access to nukes.
April 17th, 2006 at 1:03 pm
This is probably only mildly connected.
Suicide bombers are bred for years through hate, if these bastards had not attempted this murder then, it would just be tomorow instead.
Terrorism does not = war.
Terrorism = Policy and tatic of deleberately targetting civilians.
April 17th, 2006 at 1:17 pm
I get sick to my stomach, how people of islam “live” their religion!
You know, silence is also consent! Not demonstrating in the streets when the fanatics wage war, is accepting their agenda!
Theres something deeply perverted at the heart of this religion!
Please somebody, tell me what it is!?!
April 17th, 2006 at 2:03 pm
Girl: Sadly I am becoming totally convinced it is the Qur’an itself. Not just its lack of humanity, but the way it is taught. When you have 20 years of being told that ‘unbelievers go to hell’ growing up — repeated hundreds of times in every Surah, you are afraid to think for yourself, to develop critical thinking. (Sure, some Muslims rise above this, like SM and many in the blogosphere — the way some Christians rise above the anti-sex teachings, but many of both groups are wounded for life.)
And without critical thinking, you are left vulnerable to the claims and demands of ‘authority.’ Especially those who claim to be better Muslims than you think you are.
And if they then take the verses that preach hate and killing as a duty…
BOOM
April 17th, 2006 at 2:19 pm
The history of Islam is full of violence, built on ghazawat (wars) and tribal mentality. I’m not a Muslim and neither am I Christian or a religious person. I have read the alternative history of Islam - the one they don’t teach us in school (why do they teach us religion in school to begin with? It only creates more diversion in our society). People like Sayed AlQimny and Farag Fouda have repeatedly pointed this alternative history out - only to be met by a life-ending Azharic death sentence for the second, and a fundmaentalist death threat to the first, ending his career. If your religion says that different people from yourself are kafara and that a person who decides to leave this religion should be killed, then there’s seriously something wrong with this religion. There is an underlying religious state(s) being created and willing to replace the unity and sovereignity of the state. We would do Egypt and the world a favour to wake up as soon as possible.
April 17th, 2006 at 2:45 pm
I can hold a lot of sympathy for muslims who beat their heads on their desks and cry “this isn’t Islam” because I can point to 1001 things in Christian history that would make me do the same thing were I living through them.
It is an interesting question, though, to ask who is right, those who say that isn’t Islam, or those who blow themselves up in the belief it is?
I can find all manner of verses in the Bible to condemn the actions of Christians during the Crusades or the Inquisition, etc. I can, in fact, find nothing at all to support their claims that they were doing anything at all in the name of G-d, which is almost proven by the fact they would not even allow the general populous to read the Bible to see for themselves.
The problem with how we see Islam is that those who are blowing themselves and others to pieces is that they are all too easily finding jusitifcation for their actions from the Qur’an. They can point to verse after verse to back up their claims.
So I guess I’m still sort of left in sympathetic wondering, who is right? Those who say that isn’t Islam or those who insist it is?
April 17th, 2006 at 3:13 pm
elengil:
Crusades? Inquisition? Interesting Christian historical occurences that happened centuries ago. I doubt you’d find many practising Christians today who would share your sense of guilt about the sins of our ancestors.
Today, the world has a problem with a group of people who appoint themselves judge, jury and executioner.
There is no process involved among the Murdercide bombers, like in the western world. It’s kill first and ask questions later.
This is nothing new. It’s been ingrained into those who want to emulate Muhammad, a warrior. Jesus, on the other hand, preached a gospel of the search for inner peace. His only ‘violent’ action was to overturn the table of the moneychangers at the temple in Jerusalem.
Although many of his followers believed he was the leader who would overthrow the Roman occupation, Jesus was not the warrior king the people looked to lead them to freedom. Instead, he rejected a violent solution and articulated quite clearly that his kingdom was not of this world and that there was a difference between Ceasar and God (separation of church and state).
There will always be a violent faction within Islam because there will always be people trying to emulate Muhammad, the warrior king.
To me, that is a step backwards from the message that was given 700 years earlier. And, that is the quagmire Islam finds itself in and can never escape.
There are other options out there. Turn away from evil and do good. Seek peace and pursue it.
April 17th, 2006 at 3:26 pm
You’ve missed the point. The point isn’t how far back in our history it was, the point is to consider what if you were living when it was going on. Just how well could you have argued to another people that “this isn’t really Christianity” when all around you, that is exactly what people who claimed to be Chrisitan were doing?
And now, can we look on at what those who call themselves Muslim are doing and take the high and holy ground and say “well it must be Islam because those who are doing it claim it is”?
That is why I am asking. Who is right? Those who say it is or those who say it isn’t?
The point isn’t how long ago the Christians were doing it too, the point is that we did it too, and would we have wanted others to have someone else condemn our entire faith based on the actions of those people?
April 17th, 2006 at 3:28 pm
SM,
There is no connection with what HAMAS had said. Terrorist have been trying to attack Israel for as long as I remember. This is not linked to how well fed the Palestinians are.
April 17th, 2006 at 3:30 pm
Oh, and in addendum to my previous post:
If you had stood up in the middle of the Crusades or Inquisition and condemned those perpetrating it, you would have been tortured and killed too.
So that is why I have a lot of sympathy for muslims who want to say this isn’t Islam but, hell, I’d be scared to say it too loud too!
I’m still left with the question of who is right, though.
April 17th, 2006 at 3:31 pm
“there are good Muslims and bad Muslims”
But what if the good ones believe the fire, brimstone and kill your enemies.
And the bad ones are just the wimps who have no stomach for the fight.
Then Islam would be living out its Mission Statement
April 17th, 2006 at 3:32 pm
What happened to the futuristic world of the 21st Century I imagined when I was a child? This sucks. Every day I get up and check out the news. Somebody killed civilians in Iraq, Israel, Pakistan, etc.
It’s not just Islam. The local news is more depressing than it used to be. Florida has more big city crime than it used to have. We have gone from the 17th largest state to 4th.
I can’t believe people would rather do violence than hang around with their children, walk a dog, do some gardening, or read a book. Worst are the people who do violence against their family or friends. There are even cannibal stories in the news. WTF is wrong with people?
Tragedy after tragedy, piled on tragedy, it never accomplishes anything over there. Now the Israelis will have to respond with some kind of attack which won’t bring the end of the conflict any closer.
Gaza’s greenhouses were a fantastic opportunity. I’d love to have an advanced commercial greenhouse. You can grow anything, from crazy carnivorous plants from Borneo, to tomatos. I love both.
If the Palestinians want more land the best strategy is to stop the violence. I don’t see how any land deal short of all of Israel could satisfy the bloodthirsty leaders in power these days. There are too many suicide trainers, bomb makers, and those who are willing to send young people to their deaths, kill civilians, and somehow feel good about it.
I guess I’ll try not to feel hopeless and smack my head on a desk. It seems to work for Sandmonkey.
April 17th, 2006 at 3:34 pm
elengil:
There is a fundamental difference between a philosophy exemplified by a warrior king and one who teaches inner peace by understanding our natural surroundings.
As far as atrocities committed in the name of the Prince of Peace, that is a human failing quite apart from the original example.
April 17th, 2006 at 3:36 pm
you’re still missing the point.
I’m not arguing the relative merits of Yeshuah vs. Mohammed, nor of the Bible vs. the Qur’an.
I am asking how would a Christian living during the Crusades or the Inquisition could have argued any better for ‘this isn’t Christianity’? And even if they felt that way, would the fear of death at the hands of those committing them silenced them?
If so, how can we condemn the silent Muslims who are as terrified of those committing Jihad and terrosim as we are?
April 17th, 2006 at 3:40 pm
Chip Says:
“… more depressing than it used to be …”
Violence works. People see the evidence.
We know that which is why we try to teach otherwise.
People want quick results and if they have little to lose …
April 17th, 2006 at 3:43 pm
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060417/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_explosion_20;_ylt=AioCKELlATXF_4Pq4fndk9kUvioA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl
Well, looks like Hamas, the official government of the Palestinians, has chosen to view terrorism as legitimate. Does that make it an official act of war that Israel can respond to?
Sadly, probably not in today’s world. Israel alone seems excluded from being able to respond to attacks on her sovereign soil as acts of war and instead is condemned always as being the problem.
*sigh*
/me cries.
April 17th, 2006 at 3:49 pm
I hope (and believe) that Israel will be impervious to the mealy-mouthed who try to pretend that she has no right to defend herself against the assembled bellicose arab neighbours.
April 17th, 2006 at 3:53 pm
elengil:
What was the original purpose of the Crusades?
Just happened to be the same sort of stuff that’s happening today …unprovoked attacks on Christians in the birthplace of the religion by Muslim fanatics. The story doesn’t change … only the stage does.
That’s because the example of Muhammad is that of a warrior king, one who subjugates the populace through violent acts.
I can’t recall any account of people who did not support the Crusades being condemned to death in their homelands. Besides, since it’s beeen at least eight centuries since those events happened, how can we fairly judge the context of the world at that time?
On another post, this quote: “Evil can grow only when good men stand idly by.”
There are many examples in history of predominantly Christian nations who send their young men to fight wars against spreading tyranny, even though their underlying belief in peace and goodwill among men.
It’s not the ideal solution, of course. It would be best if people won the jihad against evil in their hearts first before being judge, jury and executioner of those they consider inferior.
Unfortunately, youth can be easily swayed into all types of atrocities.
A good start would be to identify the leaders and point out their ignorance.
Free speech is a good start. I’m encouraged by the inner desires of Sandmonkey to unshackle himself from this culture of death.
I’m not sure Islam can be reformed.
April 17th, 2006 at 3:53 pm
terror is war a war crime
‘A Hamas spokesman, in an interview with Al-Jazeera television, described the attack as an “act of self-defense” against the Israeli occupation.’
// CNN.com
‘Witness Israel Yaakov said the blast killed a woman standing near her husband and children.
“The father was traumatized. He went into shock. He ran to the children to gather them up and the children were screaming, ‘Mom! Mom!’ and she wasn’t answering, she was dead already … it’s a shocking scene,” Yaakov said.
Another witness, 62-year-old Sonya Levy, said she had just finished shopping when the blast occurred.
“I was about to get into my car, and boom! There was an explosion. A bit of human flesh landed on my car and I started to scream,” she said.
Her car was 50 yards from the explosion and its windshield was smeared with blood.’
// AP
. For the murdered innocents:
Requiem aeternam dona eis Domine
Et lux perpetua luceat eis.
Kyrie eleison.
Amen.
Eternal rest grant unto them, O L_rd
And let perpetual light shine upon them.
May G_d have mercy on us.
Amen.
April 17th, 2006 at 4:02 pm
“I’m not sure Islam can be reformed.”
Islam is not looking for reform.
“terror is war, a war crime”
You can win it or lose it.
April 17th, 2006 at 4:08 pm
if they have little to lose
That’s the problem. People need to invest in their lives, friends, and interests or they will always think they have little to lose. Just being the member of a group with military and political goals isn’t a life.
People need to have positive goals on this earth. Killing Jews isn’t one of them. The Palestinians are the advance guard for Arab states who’ve realized they can’t get it done with conventional military force. In other words, they’re viewed as a means to an end, not ends unto themselves.
Calling people “refugees” three generations after they left their previous location is serious twisting of the word refugee. I’d be a refugee from Poland. I’ve never seen Poland and only know the swear words.
Speaking of families, I need to go take care of mine.
While I would lay down my life for my nation or family, I certainly wouldn’t do it while attacking a soft target like a city street. What a waste, on both sides.
Imagine what humanity could do if everyone decided where they are is their home and we all tried to make the best of it.
April 17th, 2006 at 4:12 pm
“If your religion says that different people from yourself are kafara and that a person who decides to leave this religion should be killed, then there’s seriously something wrong with this religion.”
Remember when people trying to leave the Communist paradise of East Germany used to be shot by border guards? Same problem.
If people don’t want to stay in your religion, let them go. If many want to leave, ask yourself what is wrong with the religion.
The best test of a country is whether people are leaving it or trying to get into it. I don’t see a lot of Americans queueing up to immigrate into Palestine.
April 17th, 2006 at 4:18 pm
Sean:
If Islam cannot be reformed, there’s only two choices left: accept it as it is or reject it outright.
There are other options out there, options people were willing to pay for with their lives.
It’s better to die striving for peace than live under the yoke of fear. OK, I’m pretty brave sitting here in western Canada, but that’s the choices people have had to make through the ages.
April 17th, 2006 at 4:27 pm
Set you free Says:
“If Islam cannot be reformed, there’s only two choices left: accept it as it is or reject it outright.”
True.
Since Islam rejects “non-Islam” outright, the choice has been made anyway.
The only remaining decision is whether we want slow attrition at the hands of Islam, or whether we want to assert our right to a patch of this planet. I favour the latter.
April 17th, 2006 at 4:44 pm
“There are other options out there, options people were willing to pay for with their lives.”
I don’t understand - what were those ?
April 17th, 2006 at 4:55 pm
Jim Benton, please don’t start believing that it is isalm or the quran etc that are to blame, you can find any number of quotes in any text to support any argument you want. It isn’t the books it’s those who follow them, in this case the majority of muslims are not jihadis. Yes the jihadis are dangerous but muslims are not. If buddhist suicide bombers, yes i know how unlikely that would be, started attacking tomorrow i wouldn’t be anti buddhism. Maybe when it keeps reoccuring i’d start to question if their religion is evil and forget that before such incidents their religion wasn’t a problem for me or anyone else. See that’s the problem, moderate muslims are fighting both sides, the jihadis and those who believe that they are evil, even though they are constantly fighting the jihadis and their ideologies in their own countries. For instance i remember being in Egypt when the bombings were taking place in the 90s, at the time every soap was about extremists, people would get off buses if someone with a beard got on, walking tents were avoided and had streets to themselves sometimes. These fanatics were opposed by everyone and were sentenced to death. I came to England to find that most of them were living here quite freely and had sought assylum. Now that they’re attacking the west guess who’s getting blamed?
Nahla
April 17th, 2006 at 4:56 pm
Maybe if they would focus more on being economically and socially productive instead of blowing themselves up, they wouldn’t starve.
Just a thought.
April 17th, 2006 at 4:59 pm
Ian:
Well, let’s start with the early persecutions of Christians, who were fed to the lions.
Let’s move onto Muslim warriors, who gave Christians the option of converting to Islam or having their throats slit during their first expansionist period.
How about early Soviet Russia, where thousands of priests were slaughtered in the name of secular humanism rather than renounce their beliefs?
Not sure who said this: “It’s better to die a free man than wither under a tyranny.”
Unless you stand up for your freedoms, the tyrant wins.
Appease the tyrants and your society will wither.
April 17th, 2006 at 5:05 pm
And in what ways are those, alternatives to reforming Islam. Your point still eludes me.
April 17th, 2006 at 5:20 pm
Ian:
Islam cannot be reformed. There will always be people trying to emulate Muhammad by trying to subjugate the world through violent means.
So, if Sandmonkey and his Egyptian friends sincerely want to find a philosophy of peace, they must reject Islam outright.
By headlining one of his posts Oh God No, Sandmonkey demonstrated he does not reject the concept of God.
It’s an accident of birth that Sandmonkey was born into a Muslim family and I was born into a Christian family.
I had the option of exploring other faiths and cast my vote for the Prince of Peace.
Nobody can do much to change the insanity of the world. Jesus himself made the distinction (render onto Ceasar what is Ceasar’s … render unto God what is God’s). The world is the domain of Satan, no doubt.
No matter how many political systems man invented, none of them can provide hope.
So, the solution is not to try to subjugate others – the solution is to try and be the best person you can be, because you never know when you’re going to die and about 15 minutes after you’re dead, nobody but your family will remember you.
Freedom is always the ultimate answer. Personal freedom and peace of mind is what Christanity offers, mainly by rejecting most of what the world considers to be valuable.
April 17th, 2006 at 5:21 pm
Set you free:
“It’s better to die a free man than wither under a tyranny.’’
The Buddhist Baba Saheb Ambedkar said:
“Better to die in the prime of youth for a great cause than to live like an oak and do nothing.’’
Buddha banned killing where there was nothing but the will to kill (as opposed to the need).
Perhaps a finer principle - and just as silly !
April 17th, 2006 at 5:24 pm
Why do religionists always think they invented freedom ?
The main freedom the world so evidently needs is freedom from religion !
April 17th, 2006 at 5:25 pm
@ yochanan #21
“. For the murdered innocents:”
Domine Jesu Crhiste!
Rex gloriae!
Lebera animas omnium fidelium
defunctorum de poenis inferni et de profudo lacu!
Liebera eas de ore leonis,
ne cadant in obscurum…
…
O King of glory!
Deliver the sourls of all the faithful
departed from the pains of hell and from the deep pit!
Deliver them from the lion’s mouth,
that hell not swallow them up,
that they fall not into darkness.
April 17th, 2006 at 5:27 pm
Set you free,
I understand your beliefs about Islam being unreformable, I used to feel similarly. But the very existence of people like SM and Hal (and so many others) is an example that Islam need not be extreme. Secularism has only proved to be partially sucessful in the West so I don’t think it, in and of itself, is likely to prove to be an acceptable answer. Religion is with us, like it or not. I hope you will read the book I’ve been recommending on this blog to others - Wilfred Cantwell Smith’s “Islam in Modern History” - I think it will confirm some of your beliefs but make you rethink others. Take a look for it if you get a chance.
April 17th, 2006 at 5:33 pm
While I will grant that most of the worst excesses of Christianity are in the past, this is not because the leopard has changed it’s spots. The fact is that the societies that host Christian populations have put controls on what they can do to themselves and others. Just look at the lives of people who live in small sects that stay below the law enforcement radar until it is too late to see the spousal and child abuse. Listen to the speechs and preaching of people who want a “Christ centered” society and you will see that even in fairly moderate Christian communities there are those who would welcome a return to theocracy. The Pope is even now trying to intervene in European elections. How many natural disasters get blamed on homosexuals and feminists by Christians?
All religion is a tool for leaders to avoid leading and people to avoid thinking.
Back to the topic, could the entire Middle East conflict be resolved with felafels?
April 17th, 2006 at 6:16 pm
Chuck:
On the contrary, religion is a challenge for people to think for themselves.
It merely codifies that people have a free will to choose and warns us against bad choices.
“Controls on what they can do …”
I hope you don’t mean Christian societies are bad because they’ve passed laws … admittedly some of them being downright silly.
There’s a huge difference between original Christianity and child-abusing sects. Those are sects and they can masquerade themselves as anything.
A Christian theocracy? Wherever would you get that idea?
Let me ask you a question. What does Jesus mean when he says render onto Ceasar what is Ceasar’s and render onto God what is God’s?
To me, it’s a revolutionary statement that lays the blueprint for the separation of church and state. If you actually read the passages, Jesus was seen by some as the leader who would throw off the yoke of the Roman empire and be crowned king of an independent Jewish state.
Instead, Jesus said he was of the kingdom of God, not of the world … which in different passsages he said was the domain on Satan.
How many natural diasters …? None, because those who would lay blame in that way are not true Christians.
The excesses are done by those who would cloak themselves in the legitimacy of Christianity, while pursuing their own worldly passions.
Chuck, you too can become a leader if you’d only shed your negative viewpoint.
April 17th, 2006 at 6:19 pm
fatah is now saying it will go after jews outside of Israel this is pure anti-semitism so much for the baloney that it is anti zionism. Now the American left will have to change there b.s..
GAZA (Reuters) - Palestinian militants linked to President Mahmoud Abbas’s increasingly fractured Fatah movement threatened on Monday to attack Jews overseas to force Israel to release Palestinian prisoners from its jails.
Two other main Palestinian militant groups, Hamas and Islamic Jihad, also said they supported violence to free more than 8,000 prisoners held by the Jewish state, but neither explicitly backed attacks on Jews outside Israel.
April 17th, 2006 at 6:32 pm
Chuck the Lucky:
Wow Man - you really are a lucky boy.
Looks like you’re being offered a job …
“Chuck, you too can become a leader if you’d only shed your negative viewpoint.”
Don’t you just luv that negative viewpoint/ crap !
April 17th, 2006 at 8:02 pm
Chuck:
Can you give me an example of a credible leader who does not have a positive viewpoint?
It’s pretty easy to tear down, but if you burn down somebody else’s house that doesn’t make your house any prettier.
Look at example of the idiotic jihadists … they think they can get rid of their own misery by murdering innocents.
Once those people are gone, does that make them any happier? No! They just want to go on burning and killing.
In the same way, complaining about a problem never solves it … my children have known that since they were three. They use their energy to find creative solutions to problems.
Still, if you want to continue wallowing in your own self-pity, be my guest.
April 17th, 2006 at 9:59 pm
“The Mayor’s Felafel”
The Palestinian “resistance” today resisted a falafel restaurant.
I have been in my share of bad restaurants, but I never felt compelled to start an organised resistance against them.
What else do Palestinians resist?
Kindergartens, busses, restaurants… and there are supposed to be able to live in an independent state?
Maybe they will find time to “resist” an actual Israeli military target at some point; or perhaps they might remember that they signed a peace treaty; or perhaps somebody will tell them that deliberately attacking civilians is a war crime (as is starting rockets from residential areas).
For a thousand years Jews have been second-class citizens in the Arab world. For a hundred years Arabs have killed Jews in Palestine.
The Palestinians are so lucky that they are fighting Jews. They could this to no other people without being condemned by the world community.
As it is, they are being paid for it.
The Palestinian Authority needs money for essentials but apparently has money to spend on ammunition and bombs.
And 80% or so voted for a strategy of committing war crimes. What a truly evil people.
April 17th, 2006 at 10:34 pm
Quote “Very smart Hamas. Very smart. Now you are proving to the world that you are indeed a government of terrorists. Good Job. Keep it up!”
The world doesn’t give a shit about Hamas. The world can’t anything for the Palestinians. The world stood by and did nothing before hamas and will stand by and do nothing during and after hamas. Get it?
April 17th, 2006 at 10:38 pm
Let me respond to you Girl u said: Theres something deeply perverted at the heart of this religion!
well it’s not just the heart of this religion that is perverted honey, there is nothing about it that is not perverted, and I really wouldn’t want you to through up, so let me tell me give just one of 600 verses from their “holy koran” that speak about us the non-muslims, the infidels, the dirty, sons of pigns and monkeys as “it” calls us, now here is the very cute and all loving verse:
Koran 9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”
I can’t help but give u another one that orders the piece loving muslims to “TERRORIZE” the non muslims so that the second time a muslim tells u islam is peace shove this verse up his ass.
koran[8-60] “Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into the enemies, of Allah and your enemies.”
aint that peaceful or what u stinking infidels?!!
April 17th, 2006 at 10:53 pm
“The world doesn’t give a shit about Hamas. The world can’t anything for the Palestinians. The world stood by and did nothing before hamas and will stand by and do nothing during and after hamas. Get it?”
Yeah, I get. The Palestinians never gave a damn about anybody else and never kept a promise to anyone but expect everybody to feel their pain and continue paying them jizya for their arrogant, obstinate and murderous ways.
I feel bad for their children but, taken as a whole, there a bunch of a**holes.
April 18th, 2006 at 12:14 am
For all thoses who are tying to pit Qur’an Vs. the Bible: the Qur’an is no more ‘barbaric’ than the bible. They are both based on similar tenets and indeed the Qur’an gave particular factions of society far more rights than the Bible ever did.
It is not about rejection of Islam. You can reconcile Islam with modern day living just as Christianity and Christians have learnt to reconcile Christianity with modern day living. Christians have been able to do what muslims have been unable to do - that is take the basic teachigns behind the holy text and apply them to today’s scenarios. Way too many clerics and their followers are all too willing to follow the text of the Qur’an literally and ignore context of the particular surah. Context is always important.
As for Hamas, they are goign to destroy any chance for a viable palestinian state considering that Olmert has said that he will unilaterally draw borders unless Palestinians shape up. If there is no negotation and it is done unilaterally then good bye Jerusalem and most of the West bank and any viable Palestinian state.
April 18th, 2006 at 12:18 am
is the last weak, Israeli forces killed 19 Palestinians of them 10 were considered as legitimate target by Israel, and 9 were collateral damage of these 9, 3 were children less than 14 years old. 97 people were injured during these extra judicial killings. Source CNN world
April 18th, 2006 at 12:27 am
@ Egyptian Girl:
Your quotes are out of context and so the point you make is invalid. I can go through the religious text of Chrstianity and Judaism and pick out single verses that aren’t pleasant. But that wouldn’t prove anything. Everything must be readin context and principles should be extracted underlying the text. Besides, with reference to the ayahs you refer to:
Surah 9: Ayah 5 - The context of the surah:Deals with the situation where following peace treaty between the muslim community (or nation) and the other party, where the other party breaks the treaty and attacks the muslim nation then it sets our the principles to be followed.
Indeed, it gives a four month grace period within which the muslim nation is not permitted to respond to attacks by the enemy so as to give them a change to cease and desist. If they do not, after the 4 month period, the state is then permitted to attack them in the manner stated in that particular ayah.
Again, the Surah before that you refer to is in the context of a Battel that had just been thought and it seeks to set out the rules of conduct during war when the muslim nation has been attacked.
April 18th, 2006 at 1:19 am
Amgad Says:
April 18th, 2006 at 12:18 am
is the last weak, Israeli forces killed 19 Palestinians of them 10 were considered as legitimate target by Israel, and 9 were collateral damage of these 9, 3 were children less than 14 years old. 97 people were injured during these extra judicial killings.
Yesterday a Palestinian blew himself up at a restaurant killing 9 and wounding countless more. All of them, men, women and children regardless of age, are apparently considered legitimate targets by Hamas who justified the operation.
Israel kills children by accident. Hamas kills children by design. Can you tell these two sentances apart?
Incidentally, if Palestinian terrorists didn’t use civilians to hide in, then they wouldn’t become collateral damage in legitimate attacks on terrorists.
The attack was the deadliest since a double suicide bombing on two buses in the southern city of Beersheba killed 16 people on Aug. 31, 2004. It was the second major Passover bombing in four years. An 2002 attack at a hotel in the coastal town of Netanya killed 29 people and triggered a major Israeli military offensive.
Again. Israel targets terrorists, not civilians. Palestinians target civilians on purpose, and seem to avoid military instilations as they apparently don’t casue enough death.
April 18th, 2006 at 1:22 am
Brit
Again, the Surah before that you refer to is in the context of a Battel that had just been thought and it seeks to set out the rules of conduct during war when the muslim nation has been attacked.
I dunno… isn’t that how they’re viewing this? That Israel has attacked them and therefore they have a right to respond using every tactic at their disposal?
I’d say really the context only further proves that this is what they’re doing. They claim they have been in a state of war for.. lets see.. 58 years, so they are justifying any and all terrorism on that basis.
April 18th, 2006 at 2:29 am
It’s almost like they want Israel to destroy them. It’s pointless to seek peace with the palestinians or even to try and live next to them. If the wall and a seperate state will not work, Israel should finish them off. There is no reason that any state should hold back from a people bent on their destruction.
Personally, I think I might pass out candy the next time 3,000 pali’s get smoked.
April 18th, 2006 at 2:40 am
43: elmagnoon:
You seem to have forgotten that most of the European countries & the US have been sending lots of money to finanse the Palestinians and the PA for years now.
Even when the PA had proven themselves corrupt and without any desent sence to spend the money on developping their society and on educating the people.
Go and shout at somebody else!
April 18th, 2006 at 4:11 am
Looks like Palies gonna be finding employment in those Islamic paradises of Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi ‘Rabia.
April 18th, 2006 at 7:00 am
People why are you making such a simple issue so complicated????!!
They are doing this because they want drastic change to happen in the region.
They are doing this because they want to start freaking world war 3.
They are giving the finger up in the air and asking for a fight.
Iran proclaimed it, Syria is an ally and Hamas is a democraticaly elected government. The people in the region are very very frustrated, they want a change, a drastic one.
People I’m serious get ready for WW 3 or at least a fucking big war in the region…
Mean while I would realy appreciate it if American bloggers can help me with the issue of whether America’s end is near?? I’ve been arguing with my friends about it for days now. They love the Alex Jones show…
Right here please… thanx
http://sudanesethinker.blogspot.com/2006/04/civilizations-rise-fall-is-americas.html
Meanwhile get ready…. If you live in the M.E. region get ready for a freaking big ass war…
April 18th, 2006 at 7:04 am
And prup the problem is not the Quran. The problem is the way Islam is being implemented and taught… so dun talk crap and blame the Quran please…
April 18th, 2006 at 7:44 am
Drima aka SudaneseThinker Says:
“the problem is not the Quran”
“The problem is the way Islam is being implemented and taught”
If I shoot you, Drima aka SudaneseThinker, it will not be my fault; it will be the fault of the rifle. Only the rifle will say it is the fault of the bullet. And the bullet will say “It was written - Allu Ahkbar”
Talk crap and blame the the Jews, the USA, anyone, everyone.
(Was Allah democratically elected ?)
April 18th, 2006 at 7:58 am
You people are making a huge deal about this…
Well no shyte… They did it cause they wanna start a freaking war… Iran gonna have or already got nukes… Syria is an ally and Hamas was elected democraticaly… alot of people in ME are frustrated and pissed off…. they want drastic changes made… a war is supposedly gonna bring changes… they think good ones and i am thinking REAL bad ones…
people in the region… all events and what opposing leaders are saying indicate a big ass coming war…
meanwhile american bloggers drop ur comments regarding this…
http://sudanesethinker.blogspot.com/2006/04/civilizations-rise-fall-is-americas.html
April 18th, 2006 at 8:07 am
Sand monkey fix ur blog it has some problems dude…
and Anon, very retarded my friend… I’m not blaming the Jews or the USA… I simply asked you not to blame the Quran… It’s like me blaming the Bible and Torah and sayin they’re screwed up books coz of the actions of Israel and America… it’s NOT like that… I dun put the blame on Torah or Judaism for the actions of Israel… it’s people’s mentality…
this is not some freaking which came first situation the chicken or the egg…
April 18th, 2006 at 8:59 am
“I dun [don't?] put the blame on Torah or Judaism for the actions of Israel”
I do.
It is the Torah that defines Jewish customs. Among these customs is to live in the holy land and defend yourself against attacks.
It is Jewish tradition that makes Israel exchange live terrorists for dead Jewish bodies.
It is Jewish law that makes Israel allow Muslims to pray in Israel in their own places of worship.
So, yes, I blame Israel’s behaviour on the Torah.
Now, I understand the Qur’an similarly demands that other religions must be tolerated (although these other religions must be monotheistic and will not have the same status as Islam and must not be followed very visibly); but since most Jews fled Arab countries and since the most vocal Arab country, Saudi Arabia, does not allow any religions but Islam, the point is moot, I suppose.
Some people say that Hamas’ and the other terrorist groups actions are caused by the Qur’an. But since the Qur’an, apparently, forbids suicide and the murder of civilians, AND confirms that G-d gave Palestine to the Jews to live in, I figure a case could be made that Hamas and the other groups do not so much follow the Qur’an as they reject its teachings. (That should make for some interesting conversations between dead suicide bombers and the gate keepers of paradise.)
Perhaps Islam is the solution. The point about not idolising the prophet would have certainly stopped people from showing their extreme love for the prophet by attacking other people about the cartoons, wouldn’t it?
April 18th, 2006 at 12:02 pm
“The point about not idolising the prophet would have certainly stopped people from showing their extreme love for the prophet by attacking other people about the cartoons, wouldn’t it?”
I couldn’t agree more on that point… very true
but regarding the other previous points about Torah… it would take a Jew to confirm that… If they are true.. well well well…
April 18th, 2006 at 12:06 pm
Drima aka SudaneseThinker Says:
“They did it cause they wanna start a freaking war”
No they don’t.
They’d last about three minutes if they did, but they don’t.
They just want to sneak aound killing civilians.
April 18th, 2006 at 12:21 pm
Re: 16
elengil Says:
“I am asking how would a Christian living during the Crusades or the Inquisition could have argued any better for ‘this isn’t Christianity’? And even if they felt that way, would the fear of death at the hands of those committing them silenced them?
If so, how can we condemn the silent Muslims who are as terrified of those committing Jihad and terrosim as we are?”
Easily.
Just as we can condem the Christians that stood silent during the crusades.
Standing silent is allowing it to happen.
April 18th, 2006 at 12:27 pm
You see elengil, if they were not silent, if the “silent majority” of sane Christians/Muslims spoke up, support for the Crusades/Islamofascism would have been damaged or completely stopped.
Standing silent is not an option. If you knew your family were about to be murdered, standing silent is pointless, you have to take the risk and make a difference. Otherwise what is the point of existing? We have a life and we must use it.
If you allow yourself to be restrained by fear, your are just a puppet of the terrorists.
April 18th, 2006 at 12:27 pm
“but regarding the other previous points about Torah… it would take a Jew to confirm that… If they are true.. well well well…”
It is true.
Jews have prayed for a return to Jerusalem for thousands of years (almost 2000, in fact). It is a fundamental part of Jewish faith. Jerusalem is the place of the ancient temple(s). That is why Muhammed travelled to Jerusalem and called it “the Holy”, because it was holy and the location of the temple built to the god he believed in and tried to follow, the Jewish god. The Qur’an makes it cery clear that Allah is the Jewish god.
“Next year in Jerusalem” is a typical good-bye at the end of Jewish festivals all over the world. Jerusalem is as central to the Jewish faith as Mecca is to Islam. What would Muslims do to defend Mecca or re-capture it if lost to infidels? The Jews’ determination to defend Jerusalem is the same, but their actions are limited by what Jewish law and traditions allow.
Judaism also mandates that you must have one law for the strangers among you and your own people. This refers to the law of the state (not Jewish law, which is only binding for Jews) and it is one reason for why Muslims and Christians (and Druze and others) are allowed to worship according to their own rites in Israel and live according to their own customs (and vote). It is an integral part of a Jewish state to follow that principle.
Jewish law and traditions are one reason why mosques and churches are not attacked in Israel. Unfortunately many Muslim countries do not follow their similar (Qur’anic) laws regarding treatment of synagogues and churches.
And even if they did, the Qur’an only grants these other religions second-class status.
There are other reasons for Israel’s actions as well, but the whole system and behaviour is certainly based on the Torah.
April 18th, 2006 at 12:36 pm
“What was the original purpose of the Crusades?”
I agree, even though I have compared the two, the Crusades and modern Islamofascism are completely different, however on the assumption that the crusades were bad, all people who remained silent became supporters.
When we look back in history, do we remember the mass of “silent Christians” who were against the crusades? The answere is no, because if choose to have no voice, your voice will not be heard.
April 18th, 2006 at 12:46 pm
yochanan Says:
April 17th, 2006 at 3:53 pm
terror is war a war crime
‘A Hamas spokesman, in an interview with Al-Jazeera television, described the attack as an “act of self-defense” against the Israeli occupation.’
// CNN.com
‘Witness Israel Yaakov said the blast killed a woman standing near her husband and children.
“The father was traumatized. He went into shock. He ran to the children to gather them up and the children were screaming, ‘Mom! Mom!’ and she wasn’t answering, she was dead already … it’s a shocking scene,” Yaakov said.
Another witness, 62-year-old Sonya Levy, said she had just finished shopping when the blast occurred.
“I was about to get into my car, and boom! There was an explosion. A bit of human flesh landed on my car and I started to scream,” she said.
Her car was 50 yards from the explosion and its windshield was smeared with blood.’….
__________________
Terrorism is not war.
Terrorism is a tatic.
Terrorism is a crime against civilians.
Terrorism can be used in war.
Terrorism does not equael war.
An “Air Assult War” is one where air warfare is the primary tatic used.
A “Terrorism War” is one where terrorism is the primary tatic used.
For example the IRA attacks did not escalate to war.
An example of a “terrorism war” can be seen during: 9/11, Madrid, London Bombings… etc etc.
April 18th, 2006 at 12:48 pm
Chip Says:
if they have little to lose
That’s the problem. People need to invest in their lives, friends, and interests….
Chip, that is foolish. One of the London bombers was a teacher, a middle class family man with friends and interests. The primary problem is not poverty.
April 18th, 2006 at 12:53 pm
Andrew Brehm, thank you for the very informative comment. Very interesting indeed. While I as a Muslim recognize that Jews have a “holy” right to Jerusalem, I also acknowledge the fact that Muslims also have a right to it. I guess as we all say, “sharing is caring”. The problem is many Muslims think that the willingess to share Jerusalem makes a Muslim, less of a Muslim. I guess it’s the same problem with many Jews practicing their faith. The problem is how do you even start discussing sharing Jerusalem. Correct me if I’m wrong but most Jews want to demolish Al-Aqsa Mosque (the third holiest site in Islam) and rebuild their temple together with the wall still standing today and which they pray to. To be honest I as a Muslim am willing to share Jerusalem but for the Al-Aqsa mosque to be demolished?? HELL NO … NEVERRRRR !
April 18th, 2006 at 12:56 pm
It seems that Israeli military is always drunk to the degree that its action kills much more innocent civilians than those of the blood thirsty terrorists.
The 4 million human beings ruled by Israel without any rights should be given a VIABLE state or be incorporated into Israel. Since neither of these option is seriously considered by the Zionists, so they take the blame for all the blood shedding.
April 18th, 2006 at 12:56 pm
The Crusades ????
All this stuff about the crusades is nonsense !!
“Ordinary people” in the times yo’all are talking about, knew next to nothing about it. The number of people on both sides who were both involved and informed, would have been a tiny proportion of the populations - even the victims of the larger campaigns whould probably not have known who the aggressors were, or why they were involved. No universal franchise, no common language, and no communications means no participation.
April 18th, 2006 at 1:04 pm
Amgad Says:
It seems that Israeli military is always drunk
That’s a new one I haven’t heard before. I suppose given the Islamic taboo on alcohol, some mullah somewhere has thought of this attribute to be added to the list of Zionists defects. It probably accounts for the big noses as well. Or could this be the dawn of Zionophobia ?
April 18th, 2006 at 1:14 pm
# Drima aka SudaneseThinker Says:
April 18th, 2006 at 8:07 am
Sand monkey fix ur blog it has some problems dude…
and Anon, very retarded my friend… I’m not blaming the Jews or the USA… I simply asked you not to blame the Quran… It’s like me blaming the Bible and Torah and sayin they’re screwed up books coz of the actions of Israel and America… it’s NOT like that… I dun put the blame on Torah or Judaism for the actions of Israel… it’s people’s mentality…
this is not some freaking which came first situation the chicken or the egg…
Israel and America does not act on behalf of God, nor do they claim to. Islamic countries and Islamofascists do.
Get the point?
April 18th, 2006 at 1:14 pm
“It seems that Israeli military is always drunk to the degree that its action kills much more innocent civilians than those of the blood thirsty terrorists.”
I figure it is unlikely that this has to do with the fact that the terrorist ALWAYS hide among civilians and that the Israelis are so much better in stopping terror attacks than the terrorists are in stopping the Israeli army?
April 18th, 2006 at 1:22 pm
“The problem is many Muslims think that the willingess to share Jerusalem makes a Muslim, less of a Muslim. I guess it’s the same problem with many Jews practicing their faith.”
No, Jewish people accepted the partition plan which made Jerusalem a shared city, the Arab’s rejected it. Jewish people today give Muslims authority on the Temple Mount, when Jordan was in control Jewish people were persicuted.
April 18th, 2006 at 1:23 pm
“The 4 million human beings ruled by Israel without any rights should be given a VIABLE state or be incorporated into Israel.”
Incorporating them into Israel would mean going back to the time when Jews were regularly killed in Palestine, by their local neighbours. It would also make Jews an eventual minority living in another Arab country which would mean the same sad treatment as Kurds in Iraq or Kopts in Egypt. NOT AN OPTION for Jews, I’m afraid.
As for their viable state, I agree. Egypt and Jordan should have done that, instead of using the land to attack Israel. And Arafat should have accepted the Israeli proposals and formed the state in 2000. Alternatively, the viable state could have been formed in 1948. It was and is up to the Arabs.
Before the Hamas victory in the elections, they were well on their way to a viable state. Ask them why they keep destroying their chances.
April 18th, 2006 at 1:23 pm
“Correct me if I’m wrong but most Jews want to demolish Al-Aqsa Mosque (the third holiest site in Islam) and rebuild their temple together with the wall still standing today and which they pray to.”
You are wrong.
April 18th, 2006 at 1:23 pm
This is a repeated myth.
April 18th, 2006 at 1:24 pm
If “Most Jews” wanted to demolish the “Dome on the Rock”, it would not be standing today.
April 18th, 2006 at 2:16 pm
“While I as a Muslim recognize that Jews have a “holy” right to Jerusalem, I also acknowledge the fact that Muslims also have a right to it. I guess as we all say, “sharing is caring”.”
I agree.
“The problem is many Muslims think that the willingess to share Jerusalem makes a Muslim, less of a Muslim.”
It seems like many think so, yes.
“I guess it’s the same problem with many Jews practicing their faith.”
I doubt it. Muslims have access to Jerusalem. Muslims live there. Heck, Muslims vote there.
“The problem is how do you even start discussing sharing Jerusalem. Correct me if I’m wrong but most Jews want to demolish Al-Aqsa Mosque (the third holiest site in Islam) and rebuild their temple together with the wall still standing today and which they pray to.”
Rebuilding the temple is supposed to be done by the Messiah. To do it now would be against Jewish law and against Jewish faith. I can’t imagine that most Jews would want to do that. Note that reform Jews (and conservative Jews, I believe) do not even acknowledge the destruction of the temple as a tragic event any more (because it gave us the synagogue as a new place of worship).
If most Jews wanted to demolish the Al-Aqsa Mosque, the mosque would have been destroyed years ago. The truth is that most Jews simply do not care about the Al-Aqsa Mosque at all. Jews care about the remaining wall of the temple.
Once the Messiah comes the problem will solve itself anyway.
“To be honest I as a Muslim am willing to share Jerusalem but for the Al-Aqsa mosque to be demolished?? HELL NO … NEVERRRRR !”
And you should not allow anybody to demolish it. But beware of what means you use to defend it.
Jerusalem under Jewish rule is now open to all (except Arabs from the occupied territories but that is due to the ongoing war and not due to general policy). When it was under Arab rule it was not open to Jews and Christians from everywhere in the world.
April 18th, 2006 at 2:28 pm
The problem is how do you even start discussing sharing Jerusalem. Correct me if I’m wrong but most Jews want to demolish Al-Aqsa Mosque (the third holiest site in Islam) and rebuild their temple together with the wall still standing today and which they pray to. To be honest I as a Muslim am willing to share Jerusalem but for the Al-Aqsa mosque to be demolished?? HELL NO … NEVERRRRR !
If they wanted to do that, they’d have done it in ‘67, instead of turning control of it back to the Muslims, despite having been denied access to their own holy sites prior to that under Jordanian control, having the Jewish Quarter heavily damaged, and having the Kotel, the Western Wall, burried under a garbage pile. Yeah. That’s apparently how concerned Jordan was for the holy sites of others.
Israel could have responded in kind. Could have kicked out all the Arabs, destroyed their Quarter in the city, demolished the Dome…
Israel instead opened the city to all, gave not only free access but full control of their OWN holiest site to the Muslims, retaining only the Kotel, and yet this wasn’t good enough.
I am forced to believe that most A