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Thursday, 4 May 2006
America will lose its War on terror.
It's not because its a war that can not be won- because it can be- and it's not because it's not fought right, because it is. It's mainly because that Americans do not have the conviction to carry it through. I hate to say this american readers, but your people have gone soft.
It's not your fault, well it kind of is, but not really. You got too pamperd, read too many self-help books and listend to far too many leftists and pop psychologists who filled you with all sorts of moraly relative defeatist crap. There used to be a time when the USA was the deciding factor in ending 2 world wars and facing down a cold war. That Generation, unfortunately, is no more. There is a softer, more compliant and femenized generation who has taken over now. And it's becoming a sad sight.
You want proof? How about the Moussaoui trial?
The man admits being a terrorist, admits wanting to fly a 5th 9/11 plane and with the confessions and the evidence the Jury would not give him the death penalty, opting to give him life in priosn instead. You know why? Cause some felt bad for his childhood .
On the first count of conspiracy to commit international terrorism,
nine cited his unstable early childhood including stays in orphanages
and a lack of emotional and financial support, and nine also cited
physical and emotional abuse by his father.
Cause, of course, unstable childhoods that lack emotional support completly justify or excuse wanting and planning to kill hundreds of people. Yes, that makes sense. It also makes sense to put him in prison for life, where he will live until he dies of old age, while your tax dollars pay for his food, housing and health insurance. That makes sense. After all, if he chose that path, he must be a victim himself.
Boo-fuckin-hooo
What? Not convinced? Want more evidence?
Ok, how about your attitude towards the Iraq war? Let's review that one quickly, shall we?
You have 135000 troops in Iraq, of which 2500 died, after a major war, invasion and a 3 year occupation with an insurangncy that at least conducts 10 terrorist attacks daily and uses mortars, and not bullets, when shooting at your troops. You know what's a 2500 out of 135000 is? Not even 2% fatality rate. I repeat, after a major invasion and a 3 year occupation that the press loves to call a quagmire, the american military has only sufferd less than 2% fatality rate. Now, go to any military person you know, hell, any historian, and ask them if this fatality rate means that the Americans are losing and that the insurgents are winning. Don't get mad when he starts laughing at your face. The Media militray experts were expecting a 5% fatality rate just for the invasion people. And 3 years and countless comaprisons to Vietnam later, you didn't even crack the 2% rate. But sure, you are losing the war and the death rate is too high. Riight.
This is a war you did not want, but one that came to you. This is a war with people who don't mind dying as long as they kill you. This is a war of conviction, and you are found lacking. If you don't get that you have to be twice as resolute and equally as ruthless as your enemy, you will lose this war, sooner or later. I mean, do you even wonder why Moussaoui had the last laugh?
Moussaoui, as he was led from the courtroom after the 15-minute
hearing, said: "America, you lost. … I won." He clapped his hands as
he was escorted away.
He is not wrong. You gave this victory to him. You allowed it. You showed mercy towards the merciless, and tolerance to those who would not extend it. And that's why you will lose.
Just saying!
May 4th, 2006 at 8:34 am
Give the west time SM. This generation has yet to learn what fascism looks like. But we are fast learners.
With every suicide bomb, with every threat of Islamic world domination, with every cartoon riot, we learn that our ideas of personal freedom and democracy do come at a price.
Don’t lose hope in America. I am a liberal Canadian and I have more faith in America with each passing day.
May 4th, 2006 at 9:13 am
I’m sorry to say your analysis about Moussaoui is flawed..
1- Death penalties cost more than life-imprisonment. Research it if you don’t believe me
2- For a guy like Moussaoui. He actually believes he’s going to Heaven afterwards so he won’t feel any remorse befor dying. A lifetime in prison is certainly a harsher punishment than death.
May 4th, 2006 at 9:45 am
Also killing him would make him a martyr
May 4th, 2006 at 9:50 am
I agree with Mmmmmmmmmmm (#2).
And 1 more argument : the minute you execute him
there will be established 10 new Jihadi groups carrying his
name… ‘battalions of Izadin al Moussaoui” …
In Israel we don’t have the death penalty so we don’t
give the Jihadists more excuses.
And you cannot characterize Israelis as “do not have the conviction to carry”.
May 4th, 2006 at 10:11 am
You don’t have the death penalty but your goverment performs targeted assasinations. This gives them enough excuses !
May 4th, 2006 at 10:36 am
Egyptian Sandmonkey, I like the new look of your template, and your blog is still just as fun to read, but why do you keep fanning the winds or war ?
Echoing the above commenters if Moussai dies he would be a martyr and won’t feel ‘remorse’.
May 4th, 2006 at 10:50 am
Contrary to the six responses above, I think your analysis is spot on, Sandmonkey.
May 4th, 2006 at 11:35 am
About That Moussaoui Decision
We’re speeding toward a point of no return, in losing the war, unless we gather our collective steel, and resolve to keep it.
May 4th, 2006 at 11:46 am
[...] The Sandmonkey has a different opinion. He does have a point though. Cause, of course, unstable childhoods that lack emotional support completly justify or excuse wanting and planning to kill hundreds of people. Yes, that makes sense. It also makes sense to put him in prison for life, where he will live until he dies of old age, while your tax dollars pay for his food, housing and health insurance. That makes sense. After all, if he chose that path, he must be a victim himself. [...]
May 4th, 2006 at 11:49 am
SM does have a point. This generation is more about shopping, plastic surgeries, MTV, bf gf relationships, have fun get high bla bla bla… Life for them is too much fun and enjoyable and they cling to it very hard… Crazy extremists on the other hand don’t give a hoooot about this life… they only care for the next…
in other words this new enemy America is facing is literaly NOT afraid of death…
(remember the damage caused by japanese kamikaze?)
New American generation is hell afraid of death and plus patriotism isn’t as strong as it is in the older generation who witnessed vietnam and ww2…
Plus how do you define a victory on the war on terror… So what if America secures Iraq. other terrorists will still remain. If Bush doesn’t manage to fix up Iraq in the next 5 years and also if he does bomb Iran, the war on terror would just TRUUULY start… Anger will unleash a new generation of terrorists and not only in ME but everywhere including Europe…
The victory will depend on the whether the speed to eliminate terrorists is faster than them popping up and being unleashed… That depends on America’s effeciency in this war and also depends on people like me, SM, BP and other like minded people who help to change Muslim mentality…
One thing I do respect about America even though Bush screwed Iraq so bad (unlike Afghanistan which I congratulate him on) is that the US spends so much money making accurate missiles to avoid civilian losses… If they chose to ignore the civilians and not be bothered then they can elminate all terrorists in one day… It’s a tough task for Bush… it’s as if he wants to kill a mosquito by using a baazoka rather than squating it… but then again regardless of the death of civilans in Iraq by American bombs, at least they spend a lot of extra money trying to make them accurate so civilans wont be hurt…
So anyways Bush speed up your efforts and we Muslim reformers better start convincing more Muslims to drop their conspiracy theories and see the truth….
Speaking of reform… Jooooooooooooooz a little help will be appreciated on this…
http://sudanesethinker.blogspot.com/2006/05/jews-as-depicted-in-islam-questions.html
May 4th, 2006 at 12:10 pm
Mmmmmmmmmmm said:
“You don’t have the death penalty but your goverment performs targeted assasinations. This gives them enough excuses !”
Where Israel has jurisdiction, terrorists are brought to justice and there is no death penalty. Where Israel has no jurisdiction, it is up to the local jurisdiction to do this. If they don’t, as in the case of the PA, only then there is targetted assassination. In short, targetted assassination is where a court of justice would not take action. That’s all there is to it.
May 4th, 2006 at 12:14 pm
Well SM does have a point. This generation is more about shopping, plastic surgeries, MTV, bf gf relationships, have fun get high bla bla bla… Life for them is too much fun and enjoyable and they cling to it very hard… Crazy extremists on the other hand don’t give a hoooot about this life… they only care for the next…
in other words this new enemy America is facing is literaly NOT afraid of death…
(remember the damage caused by japanese kamikaze?)
New American generation is hell afraid of death and plus patriotism isn’t as strong as it is in the older generation who witnessed vietnam and ww2…
Plus how do you define a victory on the war on terror… So what if America secures Iraq. other terrorists will still remain. If Bush doesn’t manage to fix up Iraq in the next 5 years and also if he does bomb Iran, the war on terror would just TRUUULY start… Anger will unleash a new generation of terrorists and not only in ME but everywhere including Europe…
The victory will depend on the whether the speed to eliminate terrorists is faster than them popping up and being unleashed… That depends on America’s effeciency in this war and also depends on people like me, SM, BP and other like minded people who help to change Muslim mentality…
One thing I do respect about America even though Bush screwed Iraq so bad (unlike Afghanistan which I congratulate him on) is that the US spends so much money making accurate missiles to avoid civilian losses… If they chose to ignore the civilians and not be bothered then they can elminate all terrorists in one day… It’s a tough task for Bush… it’s as if he wants to kill a mosquito by using a baazoka rather than squating it… but then again regardless of the death of civilans in Iraq by American bombs, at least they spend a lot of extra money trying to make them accurate so civilans wont be hurt…
So anyways Bush speed up your efforts and we Muslim reformers better start convincing more Muslims to drop their conspiracy theories and see the truth….
Speaking of reform… Jooooooooooooooz a little help will be appreciated on this…
http://sudanesethinker.blogspot.com/2006/05/jews-as-depicted-in-islam-questions.html
May 4th, 2006 at 12:17 pm
You call it “targeted assassinations”…
we call it more PC : “FOCUSED FOIL”..
One way or the other it’s good for you.
It makes them look up and worry.
And it’s much more human than the electric chair.
May 4th, 2006 at 12:41 pm
Life in a hole ,and that is where he is going, won’t glorify this jackass. Not to mention his new roomie,Bubba.
By the way, the Moroccans have a cell for him if we ever let him out.
May 4th, 2006 at 12:42 pm
I think you are overreacting, SM. Moussaoui may wish he were executed in a few years. Esp. after receiving a few marriage proposals he couldn’t possibly refuse.
If you remember, his mom expressed an opinion that it may be preferable for him to be executed. She knows better.
You may be right about the West being softened by years of fatty life. But everything may change, and a hornet nest is a hornet nest. After all, nobody could teach Europeans about conquest and warring. I prefer all this not to come into being, but the future may be not very peaceful indeed.
May 4th, 2006 at 1:02 pm
Sandmonkey, this post is right on target! We have become too soft (and soft-headed!). We take way too much for granted. Our poor folks would be considered wealthy beyond the dreams of many people in certain parts of the world. We have no clue . . .
May 4th, 2006 at 1:59 pm
The jury decision did not turn on Moussaoui’s childhood. That was one factor. They found that he had been abused, but that this this did not result in diminished capacity. The jury did not all agree that he was responsible for the attacks. There was also evidence presented at the trial that, had the FBI bothered to obtain a search warrant for the guy’s computer, they could have found out about the plot without his help. According to the news reports, the agent who handled this case said this was negligence on the part of law enforcement. This information suggests that the government could not make its case-in-chief, namely that, but for Moussaoi’s failure to tell the agents, these people died.
This guy was an Al-qaeda washout. One of the basic principles of American law is that we try to get the RIGHT guy, most especially when the crime is heinous and when people are after SOMEBODY’s blood.
The jury is a group of ordinary citizens that suffered through a long, highly emotional trial, and they went through a complicated set of instructions including both aggravating and mitigating factors item by item, taking care to consider and vote on each point. They took their time. Nobody can say they weren’t careful. I would not disturb the judgment of these people.
I am sure that Sandmonkey is right that many people, especially those with animosity toward the United States, will take this verdict as a sign of weakness. However, the political implications of a jury verdict are not a fit subject for a jury’s consideration. We don’t decide the questions guilt and innocence, or penalty, based on what other people will think about it. That’s not justice.
One of the things I love about my country is that Americans, all of us, are passionately committed to the notions of liberty and justice for every one of us. There is going to be a lot said about this verdict. You may hear some suggestions about changing this or that rule to make the outcomes in the future more fair. What you will not hear is any desire to trade our system for that of any other country.
May 4th, 2006 at 2:40 pm
SM,
New wrinkle in the Moussaoui trial. His mother is blaming France!
France immediately surrendered.
May 4th, 2006 at 2:47 pm
I think some of you are missing the point–it’s not just about Moussaoui. What about all the people whining about the miniscule proportion of American casualties in the war? Each one is terrible, but it IS war, and this one’s been far less fatal for all parties involved as a whole. There’s a reason why Ahmadinejad and Saddam and Bin Laden, etc., thumb their noses at the US. It’s because they don’t feel threatened.
And look at all the overreaction when it was “revealed” that plans to use nukes against Iran exist. That’s a contingency plan, and there are probably plans just like it for North Korea, China, etc. Just as there are diplomatic strategies in “contingency plan” form. It’s not news at all, but everyone went and freaked out about it–thereby sending the message to Iran that no matter what they do, we wouldn’t really give an appropriate response.
I’m sick and f’ing tired of the softie bedwetters screwing things up for this country. Every time you turn around, someone’s moaning about some perceived “injustice” based on hypothetical “slippery slope” arguments, and policy ends up reflecting that namby-pamby, weak-kneed bullshit.
Sandmonkey knows how we’re perceived outside the US. I’d advise you all to listen.
May 4th, 2006 at 2:57 pm
Presently, America is in a generational transition, which is the peacenik/baby boomers/progressive Marxists are in decline. We are witnessing the last grim gasp, and do remember, the US will have One Million battle hardened men AND women who will not take being crap on lightly. They are the future of business, education and politics.
The 60’s generation of self-serving failure is passing. They were a sad, though damaging blip on the screen, BUT I will put the One Million up against anyone.
May 4th, 2006 at 3:15 pm
Sandmonkey: “Your people have gone soft.”
My bud Sandmonkey has a post up about how we Americans are fighting the War on Terror. As a Muslim Arab in the Middle East, he’s got the right–but sobering–perspective on how we are perceived over there.
America will lose its War on…
May 4th, 2006 at 3:15 pm
[...] My bud Sandmonkey has a post up about how we Americans are fighting the War on Terror. As a Muslim Arab in the Middle East, he’s got the right–but sobering–perspective on how we are perceived over there. America will lose its War on terror. It’s not because its a war that can not be won- because it can be- and it’s not because it’s not fought right, because it is. It’s mainly because that Americans do not have the conviction to carry it through. I hate to say this american readers, but your people have gone soft. It’s not your fault, well it kind of is, but not really. You got too pamperd, read too many self-help books and listend to far too many leftists and pop psychologists who filled you with all sorts of moraly relative defeatist crap. There used to be a time when the USA was the deciding factor in ending 2 world wars and facing down a cold war. That Generation, unfortunately, is no more. There is a softer, more compliant and femenized generation who has taken over now. And it’s becoming a sad sight. [...]
May 4th, 2006 at 3:21 pm
I’m sick and f’ing tired of the softie bedwetters screwing things up for this country. Every time you turn around, someone’s moaning about some perceived “injustice†based on hypothetical “slippery slope†arguments, and policy ends up reflecting that namby-pamby, weak-kneed bullshit.
Sandmonkey knows how we’re perceived outside the US. I’d advise you all to listen.
Beth said all I wanted to say.
May 4th, 2006 at 3:22 pm
There’s an original Trek episode called “The Immunity Syndrome”. A giant “space amoeba” is devouring planets and such. A Vulcan ship goes to investigate and is killed. Spock senses this. He is asked how they could be killed. He responds, something like, “they could not perceive their own death”. Apropos, no? I think SM is right on target with his analysis.
May 4th, 2006 at 3:24 pm
Yes, I agree. Things are not lost yet. The old liberal goofballs just need to hit the dirt. William said it best, “The 60s generation of self-serving failure is passing.” I would extend that to people who were young adults in the early to mid 70s as well. Younger and younger people (such as myself) have less tolerance for this miserable generation’s behavior and example.
The tide is turning (just not quickly enough for my tastes) against the “victim culture”, the “entitlement mentality”, multiculturalism, and the final vestiges of veiled Marxism - all the products of a generation that were hippies when it was cool and yuppies when it was profitable. A generation of liberals turned neo-conservatives and neo-liberals. A generation that was largely without true principles. A generation that too often couldn’t see past petty ideology to determine what was truly best.
These jurors are incredible fuckwits. Concerned about his “rough childhood,” how about being concerned for the nearly 3,000 people he helped kill? The leftists have done a magnificient job instilling in our society a lack of proportion. Yes, the jihadists will take this as a sign of weakness. This is also a good demonstration of why military tribunals should be dealing with these kind of people, not civilian courts. This is a military war not a legal one.
All you who think he is going to be raped or murdered in prison should be aware he is going to the supermax facility ADX Florence, the “Alcatraz of the Rockies.” People have been murdered here, but odds are against him winding up dead. They keep these inmates pretty isolated. I’ve told people he will be writing books, engaging in frivolous lawsuits, and making a media spectacle of himself for decades to come. Al-Qaeda or its associates could wind up kidnapping people in attempts to get him released. They won’t work, but they may result in more deaths precisely because we didn’t kill him when we had a chance.
BTW, death penalties may cost more than life in prison (because of the endless legal appeals we give these people) in most cases, but I think in this case, because of the facility he is going to, it is going to cost something like $100K a year to lock him down. 40-50 years x $100K = $4,000,000-$5,000,000. Not chump change.
Damn these jurors were tards.
May 4th, 2006 at 3:36 pm
SM, is America losing in Iraq because it teaches Iraqi policemen not to kill the relatives of the people due to fear of retaliation?
May 4th, 2006 at 3:51 pm
If we were to execute him, he would die believing he was in the right, that he was a martyr, and he would die in full possession of the anger that consumes him.
With this sentence, he will have years to reflect on what he has done, he will (hopefully) receive treatment for the obvious mental problems he has, and maybe one day down the road he will give up his anger and feel remorse for his crimes. If that occurs, then we (the civilized world, not just the US) achieves total victory: we will have taken an avowed “death to America” Jihadist and turned him into a normal human being.
If we execute him, we lose that opportunity. Yes, he deserves punishment. But the punishment he has received (IMHO) fits very well.
May 4th, 2006 at 4:03 pm
RockeRay,
he will (hopefully) receive treatment for the obvious mental problems he has,
WTF!?! Were you on that fuckin jury? Are you smoking crack? What planet are you living on? What is your major malfunction? Treatment!?! OMG!
May 4th, 2006 at 4:27 pm
I don’t think so, SM. If you get away from the cities in the USA you will find a much different people who haven’t gone soft.
Don’t doubt for a second that many of us are very disturbed by the verdict! Personally I think he should’ve been put in a 3 sided wooden box, taken to the top of the Empire state building, had a firing squad behind the box, the opening put at the edge of the roof, and the box set on fire. He should’ve faced the same fate that those who jumped on 9/11 faced. Does that sound soft enough?
May 4th, 2006 at 4:50 pm
haha, RocketRay, you could be a comedian.
I’ll admit it’s possible. It’s also possible that Bill Gates will name me the sole heir to his fortune and true peace will break out in 2 seconds, but I’m not going to hold my breath. He’ll probably end up doing the book/media and endless appeals thing like others have said and just continue hating America. He already thought we were weak, we just proved it to him by not giving him the needle. He will spend that time growing his hate and laughing at us.
Even if he did change his view, that will just make the jihadists declare him a traitor and they will continue on. Total victory over an individual does not a total victory for society or the world make. That is part of the reason they have us beat if we don’t shape up. I’m not advocating we start random beheadings or the like, but we worry and obsess over relatively small things and it is to our detriment. We freak out over a few people taken hostage and obsess over it, like with Jill Caroll, and many blame ourselves for it. The enemy does not do this. They are more like “oh, the Americans caught Omar? Dirty SOBs. Oh well, move to a new safehouse, release a tape calling them devils, and find someone else to wear the bomb-belt.”
Yes, killing Moussaoui would martyr him. So did killing Kamikaze and sinking the 大和 in WWII. You can see how far that idea got the Japanese. The difference is that then we were willing to do what was neccessary to defeat our opponents, now we are not. We can’t even blame this yellow streak in society on the possibility of the USSR nuking us over messing with them and China setting up a satalite, like we did with Vietnam.
May 4th, 2006 at 5:10 pm
Sam: I usually don’t comment on your political rants. I like you personally — from what I’ve seen on the blog — enough that I don’t like to get into a controversy with you. But this one got to me. (And it is NOT a good day for me in general, so I’m less patient than usual.)
As for the Moussaoui verdict, Valerie said it as well as anyone could. I’ll only add the point that in most trials, however guilty the man was, the level of prosecutorial incompetence and illegality would have caused a mistrial or a directed verdict of ‘not guilty.’ And that is one of the good things about our system. The law applies to everyone, not just to the innocent. (One of the great moments in history was that we — meaning the West, the victors — were able to try even the highest ranking Nazis that had survived and give them a fair trial — even acquiting one guy who was swept into the net unfairly, a news broadcasted who was tried as a ’stand-in’ for Goebbels.)
I agree as well that keeping him alive is better, first because of the danger in martyrizing him, and more importantly because we are showing that, unlike our enemy, we do have a respect for life. (Sadly, we still DO have the death penalty, unlike all other civilized countries.)
As for our ’showing mercy to the merciless and tolerance to those who would not extend it,’ that, my friend is precisely why we will WIN. Because — except during the worst part of the Cold War, the Fifties — we have always refused to believe that our enemies can convince us to change the parts of our system and our philosophy that they hate, that we will NOT become like them to fight them.
As for the ‘we’ve grown too soft to win’ argument, here’s where some historical perspective comes in. Because the same line of crap was thrown about in the thirties — towards England, not towards America because we weren’t expected to be part of the fighting. Those were the times of the ‘I won’t fight for King and Country’ movement, the ‘I’d rather betray my country than betray a friend’ polls. So the English could never stand up to the HARD MEN of the time, the Hitlers and Mussolinis. It was crap then and it is crap now. (In fact, if you read some of the anti-Wilson speeches made by Teddy Roosevelt before our entrance into WWI, you’ll find some of the same themes. Again, when the chips are down, we are always fighters for these ideals we believe in , and in their DEFENSE. When we try and start the fights, as in Vietnam and Iraq, we don’t do so well.)
As for Iraq, I wish you’d read what the people who have been opponents of the war from the beginning actually say, instead of believing the straw men your neo-con writers set up. The opponents of the war were not complaining about the number of Americad deaths. (The people who are saying that now are the people who followed your friends into battle, and then discovered that sacrficies needed to be made.)
We opposed the war because of the falsehoods through which it was sold — I say falsehoods rather than lies because I believe that Bush had convinced himself these were true against the evidence — religious people are good at that — because Bush was so ignorant of the conditions on the ground that he thought — and I thought — we’d be treated like the liberators of Paris. When we weren’t, since GWB’s worst weakness may be his inability to admit mistakes, and since he didn’t have a suitable plan for what did happen, things have descended into chaos.
(One important factor is that some of us don’t buy into the ‘culture of selfishness’ and actually care about the Iraqis as well — some of whom we have come to know through blogging. I expect to get a few scornful remarks about this, but remember, that’s why they call us liberals ‘bleeding hearts’ because we do care about other people. We don’t buy into the objectivist rant you so eloquently — and disgustingly — and wrongly — posted the other day about public policy. Our soldiers are there, if necessary, to die, and we can accept their deaths more eaily — not that we like them — than we can accept the deaths of ordinary people caught up in the madness.)
The choice of remaining or leaving is NOT a choice between good and bad — and don’t pay attention to ANYONE on EITHER side who says it is. It is a choice between bad and worse, and I think the least bad is withdrawl, but as I said on Ammar’s blog yesterday, I can respect those who, accepting that neither choice is a good one, argue for remaining. Maybe I even hope they are right and I am wrong.
(I should say that when i started this, Valerie’s post was the most recent one, but today is a spring cleaning day and it has taken three hours to complete this. I’m not ignoring those who posted after her, I might respond immediately or later, I just didn’t see them until this was finished.)
May 4th, 2006 at 5:22 pm
Well it’s pretty obvious to me that this was just another one of those times where Sandmonkey is kickin’ the nest to get some talk going! And it obviously worked because here we all are!
Firstly - In my opinion the war on terror is right on target. It’s amazing what all has been accomplished in the ME since 9/11. We’re very close to a stage now where we can begin withdrawing troops from Iraq. SM, when you say that America will lose the war on terror, my first impression is to wrinkle my eyebrows and tell you, hey dude, look at the scoreboard! I feel like a baseball player who’s team is winning 5-1 in the bottom of the ninth and somebody tells him there’s no way he’ll win.
“Sandmonkey knows how we’re perceived outside the US. I’d advise you all to listen.”
Is hard enough for me to fight my own battle against the MSM and propaganda, much less what other people are up against in their own countries.
I’m kinda apathetic about the Moussaoui verdict. You could argue it either way. He’ll suffer longer and will no longer be a headline. Killing him might have been giving him what he wanted.
SM says “I mean, do you even wonder why Moussaoui had the last laugh?” I think he would have said those words regardless of the verdict. He just ultimately wanted everyone to think that everything went exactly the way he wanted it to, as if he was the one in control. I’m not fooled.
I think you reached kinda far to stir this one up SM, but overall a pretty good discussion. Keep it up!!!
May 4th, 2006 at 5:23 pm
I have to disagree.
Yes, juries are stupid and most of the blue areas are soft. However, nature takes care of itself. Would you care to wage how many times he will be raped in prison before he is found dead of a self inflicted* stabbing?
IMHO, he will suffer a fate far worse than waiting 20 years for appeals to finish…
May 4th, 2006 at 5:25 pm
[Judge] Brinkema firmly refused to be interrupted by the 37-year-old defendant as she disputed his declaration from a day earlier: “America, you lost. … I won.”
“Mr. Moussaoui, when this proceeding is over, everyone else in this room will leave to see the sun … hear the birds … and they can associate with whomever they want,” she said.
She went on: “You will spend the rest of your life in a supermax prison. It’s absolutely clear who won.”
And she said it was proper he will be kept away from outsiders, unable to speak publicly again.
“Mr. Moussaoui, you came here to be a martyr in a great big bang of glory,” she said, “but to paraphrase the poet T.S. Eliot, instead you will die with a whimper.”
At that point, Moussaoui tried again to interrupt her, but she raised her voice and spoke over him.
“You will never get a chance to speak again and that’s an appropriate ending.”
May 4th, 2006 at 5:26 pm
It is indeed a beautiful spring day here in Washington, D.C!
May 4th, 2006 at 5:34 pm
SM: I agree completely with everyone one of your points EXCEPT for the death penalty for Moussaoui. It’s not because I oppose the death penalty–I don’t–but because I think that that locking this guy up in a prison until he dies will be a far more harsh penalty to him than letting him meet his 72 virgins early.
But, I heard a report on the news today (haven’t been able to find an article on it yet) that apparently, France wants the U.S. to extradite him back to France so that he can serve his sentence there! Someone PLEASE tell me that this is NOT true!
May 4th, 2006 at 5:44 pm
Oh God, it IS true (about France seeking custody of Moussaoui)!
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,194233,00.html
May 4th, 2006 at 5:53 pm
He will die sooner than you think. Probably on the end of a broomstick, just like Dahmer did.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/crime/caseclosed/dahmer1.shtml
It better happen this way, or I will agree that we’ve become limp.
May 4th, 2006 at 6:04 pm
I wonder how many Arabs think we’re cowards for not executing him?
May 4th, 2006 at 6:26 pm
Sorry, Tommy, I’m not into this “revenge” thing. I’m more interested in justice.
Moussaoui received the greater punishment. He wanted to die and that was denied to him. So despite his pronouncements in court, America did not lose. America won.
And I don’t need to be on a “fucking” jury to see that the man has mental problems. That’s got to be one of the reasons he was not included in the 9/11 plot. Go see “United 93″, see how the hijackers behaved before they struck. Could Moussaoui have contained himself and acted normal? I really, really doubt it.
Also, I think you equate treatment with release. The man deserves to rot in PMITA prison for the rest of his miserable life. And if he understands what he has done, then he will suffer more deserved misery.
May 4th, 2006 at 6:46 pm
I was with 3 ordinary blue collar type Americans on 911. One was fixing my well and the other 2 doing some carpentry work. These are the Americans the news media does not talk to or care about. These are the basic patriot working class Americans. When we heard what was going on about the planes crashing, etc, one of the carpenters said, “Someone is going to pay.” That will always stick with me. “Someone is going to pay.”
I am not worried about this verdict. This jerk is going to rot in his cell.
The American left is dazed and confused but your average American is still pissed off. Ask the Japanese what happens when America gets pissed. We are just being patient. Someone is going to pay.
May 4th, 2006 at 7:01 pm
Americans also have very short memories. We let things like this happen…we put the same creeps back in office when at one time or another make us so mad we swear we won’t ever vote for them again. I don’t understand it
May 4th, 2006 at 7:33 pm
> It’s mainly because that Americans do not have the conviction to carry it through.
The americans did not execute Moussaoui, so they are doomed to fail?
Ridiculous and and narrow minded as usual.
And yes, the americans are loosing their war of global dominance - based
on lies and fiction, including the “terrorist” enemy - and that’s not good
or bad - it’s inevitable.
May 4th, 2006 at 7:34 pm
[...] From the Egyptian blogger ‘Sandmonkey:’ America will lose its War on terror. [...]
May 4th, 2006 at 7:45 pm
As for the ‘we’ve grown too soft to win’ argument, here’s where some historical perspective comes in. Because the same line of crap was thrown about in the thirties — towards England, not towards America because we weren’t expected to be part of the fighting. Those were the times of the ‘I won’t fight for King and Country’ movement, the ‘I’d rather betray my country than betray a friend’ polls. So the English could never stand up to the HARD MEN of the time, the Hitlers and Mussolinis.
Sorry Prup, but we have grown soft. It took an existential threat to rouse the British and other countries of Europe to the “Hard Men” of the Axis. The fatigue of World War I would not allow them to confront the threat until it was right on their doorstep. If not for the intervention of the US and for Hitler’s betrayal of Stalin, the British might be speaking German now. Today we cannot even deal effectively with terrorists after a mortal threat has been made against our own country. It is pathetic.
In case you don’t remember, we weren’t such a bunch of lilies either when it came to dealing with the Nazis in the immediate aftermath of World War II. When American-occupied Germany put up a resistance in certain towns, the Americans would leave the town, surround it, and shell it indiscriminately. We didn’t care about civilian casualties. Our country back then understood that sometimes you have to treat an entire population as hostile, especially when they aid and abet those who attack your forces. We could learn a lesson from this.
The British, for their part, took certain SS men and even older Hitler Youth members they had captured after the war who had committed atrocities against British soldiers and summarily executed them in secluded locations. No trial, just an execution.
Today the human rights groups would be up in arms if we employed these tactics. Can you hear Amnesty International now?
We have such a romanticized sanitized view of combat during World War II that we forget that we weren’t above playing rough with our enemies as we felt necessary. Frankly, unlike some liberal moobats, I’m not ashamed of it or afraid to authorize the use of such tactics again. I don’t think it destroyed our character as a nation. Far from it.
Also, all this talk about not wanting to make him a martyr is beside the point anyway. The jury itself has indicated that it didn’t weigh this consideration in their decision - they did weigh his “rough childhood”. What bullshit. What a dangerous precedent. Hitler had a bad childhood too, maybe if Hitler was alive today, these jurors would have been able to find a reason for him to avoid the death penalty also.
One final note: it has been pointed out on this thread that the jurors were from the East Coast. I have to agree this is probably part of the problem. I can’t see a jury from Montana or Oklahoma or Texas giving this guy a life sentence.
May 4th, 2006 at 7:52 pm
The loss of support for the war in Iraq is a red herring. People are realising that - unlike Afghanistan - Iraq was not a threat to US security. There just isn’t the same support to pay for the liberation of Iraq with American and British lives, especially when the liberated Iraqis appear so ungrateful that the they are still killing US & UK troops. You know what? They have a point. I would like to see democracy and freedom all over the Middle East but the region has to take responsibility for itself, instead of blaming everyone else for its troubles, especially anyone from outside who attempts to bring a solution.
Iran seems hell-bent on proving that America has no stomach for war at the moment, by doing everything they can to provoke one and shouting “chicken”. I think they will find if they continue on this path that the nuclear club they end up joining is the one that currently only Japan is a member of.
May 4th, 2006 at 7:56 pm
sweetie, please don’t write anything about legal issues. you don’t know anything about them. for one thing, it is the judge, not the jury, that decides a sentence. the jury simply come to determination of guilt. in addition in sentencing the judge has to take into account a long list of aggravating and mitigating factors, which i shall not go to the trouble of listing here. amongst these can be past sufferings. let me make it clear, these factors do not feature in the actual determination of guilt, but only go to sentencing. so if the judge decided having heard the arguments that the minute clemency of not giving the death sentence was justified, then that is well within the law, and hardly the nation-destroying travesty you have portrayed it as.
and Iraq is not a war the Americans wanted, but which came to them? what the fuck. you have seriously descended into outright delusion. listen: much as you support the vast majority of current american policies, you have to admit one day that immense numbers of them have actually been outright evil. for fuck’s sake. moreover, you cannot win a war against terrorism, you moron. terrorism is extra governmental. you can’t wipe it out as you would a government. when people say that americans are losing both those wars, they mean that none of the aims have been accomplished. its not a tally of casualities.
i’m done reading your blog.
May 4th, 2006 at 7:59 pm
RocketRay,
I’ve got news for you. NOBODY WHO IS COMPLETELY SANE COMMITS MURDER! DUUUUUH! Who cares? Who gives a shit?
Sorry, Tommy, I’m not into this “revenge†thing. I’m more interested in justice.
Your into mollycoddling a mass murder is what you are in to. You think this scumbag feels any remorse? You think he’ll be reflecting on his crimes. You think he’ll be ashamed of what he has done? Your naive is what you are!
Could Moussaoui have contained himself and acted normal?
Well, one thing is for sure: he certainly escalated his “insanity” towards the end of the trial. Quite a legally daft manuever.
He’ll be a jihadist until the day he dies and we can finally stop paying for him to pray to his Allah five fucking times day, feeding him 3 square meals a day, watching TV is his room, writing books, and making an ass out of himself and out of our penal system through his outbursts and his manipulation of our legal processes.
I want him to die. I don’t want to hear about how he is doing 5 years from now, 10 years from now, 20 years from now, 40 years from now. I want him to die.
I don’t care to reform all people. I’m not like you. While I believe in reform in many cases, some have crossed lines that put them beyond any possible sympathy from me. Participating in the deaths of nearly 3,000 people will get you there with me. No sympathy, no mercy. He should die.
Please, stop with the French behavior.
May 4th, 2006 at 8:02 pm
forsoothsayer,
please don’t write anything about legal issues. you don’t know anything about them. for one thing, it is the judge, not the jury, that decides a sentence.
I think you need to stop writing about this then. You clearly don’t know what the facts are. The judge, in this instance, is bound by the jury decision from everything I’ve read in the media. The judge cannot make a decision separate from the jury on this issue. This makes sense, since I believe the Supreme Court a few years back stated the death penalty can only be meted out with jury approval.
May 4th, 2006 at 8:06 pm
hmmmm…. lots of commenters having lots of oipnions about what somebody else should do. If I were a juror in Mossaoui’s trial, I’d ask myself: ” If I cannot tolerate the intolerant, or be merciful to the merciless, then who am _I_ to judge ?”
But I agree, death would be too easy….think of it, when he dies of old age 40 years from now his 72 virgins will be in their 50es
May 4th, 2006 at 8:13 pm
America Will Lose The War On Terror
Egyptian blogger Sandmonkey: America will lose its War on terror. It’s not because its a war that can not be won- because it can be- and it’s not because it’s not fought right, because it is. It’s mainly because that…
May 4th, 2006 at 8:17 pm
I guess I’m in kiss-my-favorite-ME-bloggers-butts mode. Another good one here, SM, great post! You should teach at Yale or Harvard, but then the peepz might learn something.
The point isn’t the sentence, LW/OP being a prolonged death sentence in jail. The point SM is making is the American inability to believe some people choose to do bad things. Really, they do, all the time.
May 4th, 2006 at 8:42 pm
> Frankly, unlike some liberal moobats, I’m not ashamed of it or
> afraid to authorize the use of such tactics again. I don’t think it
> destroyed our character as a nation. Far from it.
True. The NAZI-character of your genocidal slave-holder society was not
destroyed, it was exposed - especially in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
You have always been extremely good in slaughtering civilians - from
the Philippines to Iraq. Thats why Israel is a true american love affair.
May 4th, 2006 at 8:46 pm
> The point SM is making is the American inability to believe some
> people choose to do bad things.
Medieval fanatism and messianism are american as an apple pie,
May 4th, 2006 at 8:49 pm
Prup, what is it about the post on principles of public policy you find disgusting? Most of it isn’t even opinion at all.
Anyway, you brought up another thing that is the cause of a lot of misunderstanding between liberals and conservatives or libertarians…and that is objectivism. While I believe Ayn Rand was a brilliant thinker, I don’t agree with pure objectivism. Many of us don’t. Objectivism goes beyond beliefs about the proper role of government and into the realm of private morality. I don’t believe greed is good. I think it’s evil. People should care about eachother and share their wealth. These are my deeply held moral beliefs. Others may feel differently, which is exactly why it is not place to impose them on others. Government must be based on a moral code; and the only one that can be enforced with justice against all people, no matter who they are or what they believe in, is one based on mankind’s universal need for freedom. It cannot be based on a belief in equal outcome for everyone without violating the rights of the people. Hence principle #1: Free people are not equal and equal people are not free.
May 4th, 2006 at 9:14 pm
I’ve got news for you. NOBODY WHO IS COMPLETELY SANE COMMITS MURDER! DUUUUUH! Who cares? Who gives a shit?
I do. Plenty of otherwise sane people have committed murder. Your definition is false.
Your into mollycoddling a mass murder is what you are in to.
Don’t label me. As I’ve said before, I believe the punishment dealt by the jury is far worse for Moussaoui than death, and I have pretty good reasons for believing so. Plus, he didn’t personally murder anyone. He was found liable for not telling the authorities about the polt when questioned. And that line of thinking is pretty shaky, which is probably one fo the reasons the jury ruled as it did.
You think this scumbag feels any remorse? You think he’ll be reflecting on his crimes. You think he’ll be ashamed of what he has done?
Of course he feels nothing but hatred and anger right now. But if he’s treated and after quite a while to ponder things in the super-max, maybe he will. Since you’re not understanding what I’m saying, I’ll stop addressing this point.
I want him to die. I don’t want to hear about how he is doing 5 years from now, 10 years from now, 20 years from now, 40 years from now. I want him to die.
This is why we have laws, so raw emotions don’t rule us. Hell, if I lost someone on 9/11 I would probably feel the same way. But what you want is revenge, not justice. There’s a difference, look it up.
I don’t care to reform all people. I’m not like you.
Hamdulillah!
May 4th, 2006 at 9:23 pm
[...] Michael and Joanne were two of the 2,977 victims who were murdered on 9/11. I will never forget the innocent people who died on 9/11. I don’t want the world to forget. I will be posting a memorial for each and every single person that died that day. Each day at chez Diva the first post of the day will be dedicated to one of the victims of 9/11. I don’t want you to forget and I don’t know how else to get the message out. I only wish that the twelve gutless jurors at Moussaoui’s trial had not forgotten. They spared his life, he would not have done the same for them if the roles were reversed. [...]
May 4th, 2006 at 9:38 pm
RocketRay,
But if he’s treated and after quite a while to ponder things in the super-max, maybe he will.
Maybe he will? You are hanging your hat on maybe he will? Like maybe a 1 in 100 shot he will? He isn’t insane, not legally. He knows full well that what he does is considered wrong by our society. He doesn’t care. He has the capacity to take part in a conspiracy. He is very capable of being manipulative and deceptive. He isn’t a paranoid schizophrenic who thinks he is hearing voices that tell him to kill the person next to him. He isn’t hearing voices or hallucinating. He isn’t incapable of distinguishing right from wrong, but he has adopted a jihadist viewpoint of what is right and what is wrong. He is just a fanatical, cunning, but not exceptionally intellectual jihadist. Nothing more. He wouldn’t meet the definition of insanity in most, if any, American state court systems.
Don’t label me.
By saying you mollycoddle terrorists? Dont’ label you? You mean like the way you labelled my own intentions as strictly being related to vengeance? Here is news for you: I don’t care how this scumbag dies, I just want to ensure that society no longer has to deal with him, as a living breathing person, ever again. I don’t care if he suffers, you are one who states that he will suffer worse if he lives. I don’t want to torture him - even if he deserves it. My intentions having nothing to do with vengeance, they have everything to do with what I judge best for our society. We would be better off with him dead.
But yes, I stand by the charge I make of you wanting to mollycoddle this creep. You are the one that cares about whether or not he can be reformed. You are the one who wants to ensure he gets adequate mental health therapy. I don’t care at this point. My concern is with the families who will go on knowing that he is alive (and possibly having to hear about his antics in the news).
Plus, he didn’t personally murder anyone.
May 4th, 2006 at 9:41 pm
It looks like my message got cut off.
Oh well, needless to say I don’t agree with idea that he “didn’t personally murder anyone.”
May 4th, 2006 at 10:17 pm
SM
I agree with your post, a generation has gone lacking in moral direction and clairity here in the states, but like the comments about the nazis and kamikazis… we as Americans… just don’t care for that S**t.. we have been busy , its true with our consumerism and MTV, but you know what ? Thats how we always have been; not embroiled unless necessary, in the worthless and homicidal ideologies of Europe and Asia.
None is as dangerous and deadly as an American whose liberty to pursue those things - happiness and liberty, which the jihadi’s find so in-consequential.
Weather we give one deranged jihadi the death he seeks, or deny him, the verdict is a result of American justice… the time just has not come, yet, to hang them high
The world will learn, again, not to take on America.
meleager
May 4th, 2006 at 10:59 pm
U.S. americans killed hundred thousands of Iraqis through
sanctions in the early 90’s to prepare their invasion, then
killed another couple of hundered thousands of Iraqis during the
invasion led by a lunatic pathological liar - and now they
are busy to incite a civil war, which may again take the lives
of more hundred thousands of Iraqis.
And now guess, what the citizens of this country think about
themselves:
> The world will learn, again, not to take on America.
Hilarious and frightening.
May 4th, 2006 at 11:45 pm
You know what, I think you have all been dooped.
It’s all about the word choice. You might think I am overgeneralizing or not looking taking things seriously, but one word makes all the difference.
When the Bush administration brandished the operations against terroristic individuals a “War,” what they were actually doing was stepping up actions already being taken around the world by the United States Armed Services and other government agencies.
For example as far back as history can tell America has always gone after organizations, individuals, and small countries in an effort to curb extremists. Many of these operations were secret. But after 9/11 the terrorist could not be taken out with the number of forces that we were then using to take out terrorists. So they needed a new name for this larger deployment. What better name then a War.
People these days, can’t come to terms with the ongoings of the underground world there seems to exists. When one goes to their daily Starbucks, they don’t usually meet a turban wearing AK-47 carrying brown skinned man. But go halfway around the world and replace starbucks with a grocery market and thats how it is.
So yeah we may loose the war but in reality we will still be deploying CIA agents and Special Forces teams all around the world, our Navy will still cross every ocean, and our aircraft will still fly sorties…it just won’t be a war anymore and it will be what it always was before 9/11…something you never knew was happening.
May 5th, 2006 at 12:00 am
Schlussel provides a good example on how ‘far’ we have come as a nation:
http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/2006/05/sedition_convic.html
Wussified, no doubt.
May 5th, 2006 at 12:16 am
As an American, a Flag waving Patriot, and a veteran of ten years in the military, I must admit Sandmonkey has pretty much nailed it on the head. The combination of has-been burned out 60’s era hippies that have become professors and teachers, liberal politicians, and the leftist movement that will be the downfall of this War on Terrorism, and ultimately, this Great Nation of ours, if we allow them to do so. Appeasement is not the answer…never has been…never will be. Understanding our enemies is but a myth, because to understand that which makes no sense is inherently intellectually dishonest.
As a society, a culture, and a nation, we must not, and can not, allow this to happen. We MUST stand firm against this invasion of our rights and way of life.
In closing, they care not about destroying us. We, in turn, should not care about destroying them, and their ideology.
May 5th, 2006 at 1:19 am
Fascinating article in Frontpage that shows that even as early as the 1780s, the Muslims hated us Americans:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=22314
May 5th, 2006 at 1:45 am
Your realization is simply mistaken, SM. You’re not looking far enough down the road. The Moussaoui verdict is not all that significant.
May 5th, 2006 at 1:57 am
I wouldn’t have given him the satisfaction of making him a martyr either. I believe he is a lunatic who was discarded by al Quaeda. However, I predict he will be dead within a year, most probably he will be found with a porkchop sticking out of his raw butt.
May 5th, 2006 at 1:59 am
eee
Medieval fanatism and messianism are american as an apple pie,
Do you work for the BBC, EU, or just have brain damage?
May 5th, 2006 at 2:03 am
Geez Chip,
That wasn’t a very nice thing to say to eee. LoL!
He actually works for the New Dhimmi Times (sometimes called the New Duranty Times or the New York Times) as their chief Mideast correspondant.
May 5th, 2006 at 2:07 am
Jeez, eee, you’re nuts. Good luck with that.
May 5th, 2006 at 4:00 am
Good post SM.
I have problem with onething you wrote. You quoted an article that says 9 of the jurors factored his childhood/abuse issue. But the article you linked to doesn’t say that. I have a hard time believing that this jury did “go soft” on him because of his little sob story. To be honest, I think it nothing but a rumour. It doesn’t sound right. Time well tell.
I for one feel the vertict and sentence was correct. The bottom line is that this looser didn’t harm or kill anyone with his own hands. Nor did he direct anyone else to do harm on his behalf. He was a bad guy. But he is being convicted for NOT DOING SOMETHING, versus doing something. Big difference there.
Putting this low-level dropout reject to death is not going to accomplish anything accept give him what he wants.
Your conclusion that America is too soft because of this one sentence is totally wrong. It is a sign of strengh, not weakness. It is a sign that we don’t have to stoop to lowering our standards in order to satisfy a lust for revenge.
Those who are shortsighted and misread this as weakness are sorely mistaken. Ask the Japanese and Germans. They misread us. And they were shocked at the end of WWII that we helped them instead of punishing them.
This case is, in the big picture, insignificant. A minor sideshow of a minor character who thinks he is more important than he is.
Have some faith in us, SM. I do.
May 5th, 2006 at 4:42 am
No Ron Larson, it is true.
On two separate counts regarding his treatment as a child, 9 jurors for both counts agreed these were mitigating factors. No other mitigating factors weighing against him got a majority of the jurors’ support.
Check out the Hot Air article: http://hotair.com/archives/top-picks/2006/05/03/breaking-verdict-reached-in-moussaoui-sentencing/
May 5th, 2006 at 4:49 am
I liked what Dennis said.
A number of Americans are a bit confused about who or what the “enemy” is, and it’s no wonder, since our media is leftist. Who are the people mainly doing the Starbucks and self-indulgent lifestyle?
You people in other countries have little idea of the real America, because we are not portrayed by the media except as hicks in flyover country. But we exist in great numbers, we are mostly the ones who elected Bush. I would take the polls with a grain of salt too, as they have never polled me or anyone I know. I suppose they poll each other.
Some of us ARE soft. But a great many of us are not. Don’t make the mistake of thinking that those with the loudest voices have the greatest numbers, or that our media and advertising is a real reflection of America.
Most of us have not forgotten 9/11, and we are still mad. We are just not mad at the Iraqi people.
May 5th, 2006 at 11:14 am
Have any of the people who have called Americans soft ever thought about the fact that maybe we are just burt out and tired of our leadership . Iraq had nothing to do with our war on terror. The war on terror is not about fighting countries, it is a bout intelligence and slowly but surely picking off the terrorist leaders and followers. You should not mistake our fatigue of the war in Iraq as having lost our drive to fight terror. In addition, the only war we should be fighting, besides the justified attack on afghanistan, is to keep terrorists off of our shores and this is where we are really losing ( see : immigration joke ) We should have been spending these billions of dollars spent in Iraq on developing lighting fast machines to x-ray every single container coming into our ports, on locking up our borders etc etc.
Anyone who isn’t American cannot appreciate how exhausting it has been to watch Bush errode our economy, our reputation etc etc.
America is not soft, it is burnt out.
Not to start a row with any of the ME bloggers ( because as I have said I respect you all for what you are doing ) but keep in mind you are doing it annonymously. Given your collective dissatisfaction with the state of affairs in your own countries and with the Jihadi’s, why is it that you are not organizing mass ralies showing your own distaste for the Islamists publicly. It is because you do not want to put your lifes at risk ( does this make you soft or wise ? ).
It is easy for foreigners to call American’s soft when they are not the ones making the investment.
SandMonkey, a friend of yours lost an arm in the last bombing attack in Sinai. What effort did you make to take revenge. Many of these terrorists could be your neighbors, yet you do not do anything about it. Again please do misread this as an attack on you or any other Middle Eastern member on this board. I understand completely why you do not take action. Besides the fact that you do not want to risk your own life, to some degree we all have the feeling that you kill one Jihadi and 10 more come out of the woodwork.
The war on terror is very much alive in all of the hearts of America but while we have spent all of this capital, the main culprit of 9/11 is still running loose and making movies for our vienwing pleasure.
May 5th, 2006 at 11:44 am
PS : In other words, we might be a little more enthusistic about fighting the war on terror, if we were actually focusing our attentions where they should be and not a competely unrelated war. I know that many feel that ridding Iraq of Saddam was an excellent thing. Maybe so, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the war on terror.
May 5th, 2006 at 12:46 pm
wow you people are seriously pissed over this… anyways i think America will win… jz make sure the hatred many Muslims have for you doesn’t breed another generation of terrorists who will form a new al-qaeda… this is gonna be a loooooooooooooong war… i wonder who will win the elections aand be the new president… what will his policies be like? i think that’s a very important question that needs to be answered if you really wanna know whether America will lose or win…
May 5th, 2006 at 1:09 pm
Frenchman has a good point
May 5th, 2006 at 1:13 pm
Anyone who isn’t American cannot appreciate how exhausting it has been to watch Bush errode our economy, our reputation etc etc.
In the wake of the 9/11 terrorist attacks the Dow Jones Average dropped to somwhere between 4000 to 4500 (can’t remember the exact figure, but I do recall my retirement investments taking a beating as a result). Yesterday the Dow closed at 11,438.86. Using January figures for each year cited,unemployment stood at 6.7% in 1994, rose to 7.7% in 1996, dropped to 5.4% in 1997. During the remainder of the Clinton administration they bounced around in the 4% to 4.7% range. The highest January unemployment rate between 2001 and 2006 was in 2003, at 5.7%. The current January report is 4.7%. I don’t quite see how these figures support the notion that the Bush administration has presided over an erosion of the national economy.
May 5th, 2006 at 1:51 pm
Sandmonkey - Yes, there are seriously deluded, totally appeasing people on the North American continent, who have already capitulated, while refusing to recognize a WoT. However, they are not in Americans. They are called Canadians.
May 5th, 2006 at 4:46 pm
SM,
I have to agree and disagree with you.
1. I agree that America is not currently winning the war on terror. This is not to say it cannot be won, or will not be won, but at the current status its not going well.
However:
A: The Moussai trial. Are, you, farking, kidding me. The guy is a mentally unstable pathological liar. I don’t believe a single thing he said, and am glad he didn’t get the death penalty. He had almost absolutely no role in 9/11 at all, and his diatribes meant nothing to me. He’s a pathetic soul who thrives on being in the negative spotlight. Don’t be sucked in.
B: SM, come on. War is hell. 2% have died. 15,000 come back injured beyond the point of no return. Soldiers killing themselves from PSTD. Not to mention thousands and thousands and thousands of collateral damage.
AND, many many of us do not believe in this war in the first place, that our interests can better be served elsewhere.
So we’re in between a rock and a hard place. Personally, I have realized America is not what it once was. It is a new country, with a constitution that is more of a thin veil than a rule of law. I believe we’re closer to an oligarchy than a true democracy.
May 5th, 2006 at 6:54 pm
> Most of us have not forgotten 9/11, and we are still mad.
Still? You’ve been mad all the time.
A nation of serial killers that robbed and looted contries everywhere on
this planet - from Mexico to Vietnam - killing millions of people - prop-
ping up the “terrorists” they now pretend to fight.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/handshake300.jpg
Hilarious,
May 5th, 2006 at 7:11 pm
eee
“Hilarious and frightening”
So maybe I should speak softly and all that…
you just dont get it. Good will grows among normal minded people, weather here or in the ME.. I imagine I have more in common with someone from the ME than with an ill-liberal toady like you. SM’s point is well taken, and without serious re-shaping of the ME and USA and help from what friends we do have there, the battle will continue to be a draw between those who rule by superstition and force, and those who believe in liberty and freedom. You are obviously one of the former.
The point is, that unlike your trite denounciation of our shameful use of slavery which was settled 140 years ago and America’s bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshoma, the fact is, if one American soldiers life was spared, then it was justified. Unless it was your fathers..
While Iraq is different than Japan in that we have achieved one objective of eliminating Saddam we did not in his place set up a new “emperor” for Iraq as we could have but sincerely hope that the Iraqi people find their own way.
but
As we say, all options continue to be on the table.
gothguy… thumbs up
frenchman… believe me, America is not burnt out.. a little dis-orientated and pre-occupied, perhaps, but again, WE JUST DONT CARE FOR THAT S**T.
We will ensure that our enemies do not have the capibility to carry out their threats. Then we’ll go on about our business.
meleager
May 5th, 2006 at 7:17 pm
Good news.
According to Hot Air, there was a story in the Washington Post that indicated that one of the jurors states the reason that Moussaoui wasn’t sentenced to death didn’t rest on his bad childhood after all. They simply didn’t believe he had much direct involvement in the 9/11 plot:
http://hotair.com/archives/the-blog/2006/05/05/juror-moussaoui-spared-because-he-had-limited-knowledge-of-the-plot/
I still would have preferred to see the bastard die. I think it was a mistake to spare him the death penalty. But I am relieved to see that he didn’t avoid death for some moronic “pop psychological” reason.
BTW, have any of you checked out Hot Air? It is pretty rad.
May 5th, 2006 at 8:05 pm
> Good will grows among normal minded people, weather here or in the ME..
Never, “good” is only what the judeo-christian master race wants and believes.
Those who disagree are “bad” by definition, outlawed and killed - especially
when they are not able to defend themselves like the Palestinians or the
Iraqis.
> I imagine I have more in common with someone from the ME than with an ill-
> liberal toady like you.
You should not believe in all the crap you read from Pipes.
> SM’s point is well taken, and without serious re-shaping of the ME and USA
> and help from what friends we do have there
You have no friends there, no friends in latin-america, no friends asia
and even no friends in europe.
You have only servants and opportunists like Barak or the Hashemites that
try to please you as long as you pay, and as long as they fear you.
> the battle will continue to be a draw between those who rule by supersti-
> tion and force, and those who believe in liberty and freedom.
It’s hard for me to imagine a government which is more addict to super-
stition and force as your government, which also hates liberty and free-
dom more then anybody else - see Guantanmo, Abu Ghraib or the rendition
flights.
You should consult someone to fix your malfunctioning cognitive system.
> The point is, that unlike your trite denounciation of our shameful use of
> slavery which was settled 140 years ago
Apartheid and thus slavery was still in place in the US, when I was born.
And the number of not-so-caucasian inmates of your prison-state shows,
that the racist system still works.
> and America’s bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshoma, the fact is, if one
> American soldiers life was spared, then it was justified.
Yes, that’s what I’m repeating al the time. The live of a single soldiers
has a higher worth then 100.000 jap. civilians.
You’ve been NAZI in the past and you are NAZI in the present.
> While Iraq is different than Japan in that we have achieved one objective
> of eliminating Saddam
Great: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/handshake300.jpg
> we did not in his place set up a new “emperor” for Iraq as we could have
> but sincerely hope that the Iraqi people find their own way.
LOL. You are only drowning the country in a sea of blood spilled by
the civil war your leaders created.
> We will ensure that our enemies do not have the capibility to carry out
> their threats. Then we’ll go on about our business.
Yeah, especially the threat of lies, originating from your monkey-government.
May 5th, 2006 at 8:25 pm
LoL!
eee,
Have you considered accepting Jesus Christ into your own life?
C’mon! Don’t you want to join the Judeo-Christian master race? LoL.
May 5th, 2006 at 8:35 pm
> LoL.
A monkey-government presides over monkeys. Right? :]
May 5th, 2006 at 10:00 pm
Forsoothsayer,
don’t know shit about the law except when it comes to common sense; don’t break it… unless u have to.
But i loved the second part of ur comment, especially the foul language. It’s true… just fight terrorism with terrorism at state scale and u get more, much more angry frustrated people ready to die just for the sake of making a noisy blast.
May 6th, 2006 at 1:48 am
eee,
Are you talking about your friends in Spain again?
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=20260&only
May 6th, 2006 at 6:02 am
Don’t confuse 12 bleeding heart wusses from the East Coast with the rest of the country. We’re still here. Slumbering, stupifyied by the ignorant pontifications of those who profess to be our betters, but there. Apparently, we’re recovering from a hell of a bender.
May 6th, 2006 at 7:47 am
eee I would rather have the US dominate the world than the Sharia dominate it. Anyone else objects? Everyone loves the $$$USD$$$. but nobody loves the Hajib. HEH.
You speak of NAZIsm again? http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com suck on it and die err I mean LEARN , Everyone had some degree of relations with the Nazi’s and Muslims are Definetely not an exempt of that.
Hypocricy hypocricy.
Instead of complaining about the horrible things people in the past do or those silly CONSPIRACY theories you spin about DO something with those hands and make things right instead of BLAMING people. Strap a bomb around you and visit a Muslim brotherhood branch and show them were the virgins are! (just kidding!) if you didnt realize by now Conspiracy theories are worth less than opinions and a thousand opinions are worth less than a single Fact. Get those right and people might stop thinking of you as a loony
May 6th, 2006 at 10:07 am
…infidelirious Says:
May 4th, 2006 at 2:40 pm
SM,
New wrinkle in the Moussaoui trial. His mother is blaming France!
France immediately surrendered…
I begged you could go on Fuck-France site ! it’s what on the purpose is !
for the reasonable ones, French policy didn’t interfer in that case, not to return in bad relations with US, as they were in 2003 ; we now have a very good cooperation between secret services
as far this topic, a figaro reporter reports massaoui ’s trial
here !
http://guillemette.typepad.com/guillemette/
May 6th, 2006 at 12:33 pm
No, your wrong, SM. The real probelm is that America hasn’t been hurt enough yet. Once a nuclear bomb goes off here, or some really terrible mass murder, …….we’ve got a short attention span and to be honest, we honestly don’t think any of you are worth it.
Under every liberal elite is a person who is convinced that they are better than you, and who hasn’t been mugged yet.
May 6th, 2006 at 7:23 pm
> eee I would rather have the US dominate the world than
> the Sharia dominate it. Anyone else objects?
Yes.
1. You .- the criminals that lead your country - propped up bin Laden
to destabilize the USSR. But after bin Laden managed to kick the
Russians into their asses, he quickly changed the target from the
communist infifels to the capitalist ones from the US.
2. You .- the criminals that lead your country - then used the outcome
of 911 - in which at least parts of your governments were somehow
involved - to invade Afghanistan, then Iraq and now we are waiting for
Iran - to repeat what worked so nice in Latin-America earlier - have your
own son of a bitch.
The idea that the “sharia” is a ascending to rule this planet is a ridiculous
part of the zionazi propaganda to incite fear and thus hate - you are a
perfect example. But you will reject this, for you’re continously brain-
washed by FOX, CNN and other propaganda-outlets.
Monkeys uber alles.
May 6th, 2006 at 8:50 pm
You .- the criminals that lead your country - propped up bin Laden
to destabilize the USSR. But after bin Laden managed to kick the
Russians into their asses, he quickly changed the target from the
communist infifels to the capitalist ones from the US.
The CIA didn’t prop up bin Laden. I have yet to see much evidence of even a significant relationship between bin Laden’s activities in Afghanistan and the CIA’s. If there was a relationship it was likely minor. Bin Laden, according to some sources, received some run of the mill mujahideen training from CIA backed training camps and CIA officers in Afghanistan admit that they were aware of bin Laden’s financing of mujahideen efforts; however, every CIA officer involved who’s account I have read states they never even met him. This, by itself, hardly sounds like a close working relationship. The CIA worked with certain factions of mujahideen and Osama financed some factions of mujahideen. You are taking that isolated fact and then jumping to the conclusion that the relationship between CIA and bin Laden was significant and that the CIA essentially “propped” him up. I would like to see more evidence for this assertion. I would also like to see more evidence that bin Laden was the man who was primarily responsible for “kicking the Russians out”. From what I’ve heard a relatively small number of mujahideen who were armed with and trained in using Stinger missles were the primary factor responsible in causing the Soviets to lose the war in Afghanistan. Prior to the introduction of the Stinger, the mujahideen were being slaughtered by the Soviets.
From everything I’ve read, it sounds as if bin Laden was a rather small piece of the larger mujahideen effort in Afghanistan during the 1980s. He was primarily useful in that he brought money to the cause. You seem to inflate his significance without reason.
The idea that the “sharia†is a ascending to rule this planet is a ridiculous
part of the zionazi propaganda to incite fear and thus hate
So the “Zionazis” are behind Osama bin Laden? How about the Council for American-Islamic relations? How about the Muslim Brotherhood? Get real, eee. All Islamist groups seek the establishment of a global caliphate. This is their long-term goal. It is undeniable.
May 6th, 2006 at 9:01 pm
tommy , as far I know from my lectures, I agree with you
May 6th, 2006 at 10:48 pm
> The CIA didn’t prop up bin Laden. I have yet to see much evidence of even
> a significant relationship between bin Laden’s activities in Afghanistan
> and the CIA’s.
It’s not important, if Osama himself was or is an agent of the CIA. Important
is, that the US propped up islamistic groups - together with the ISI - who was
involved in 911 - and the Saudis (!), just to fight the USSR.
These islamists were a terrorist tool of american foreign policy, which then
later turned against them.
These people were are thugs, but the US never has or had any problems to
cooperate with or to prop up thugs, as long as they seemed to be useful.
> You are taking that isolated fact and then jumping to the conclusion that
> the relationship between CIA and bin Laden was significant
No not really, but you are obviously trying to reduce the problem to the ir-
relevant question, if bin Laden himself was a CONSCIOUS tool of the CIA.
> So the “Zionazis” are behind Osama bin Laden?
I didn’t say that - and when people deliberately attempt to “misinterpret” me
it´s clear, that they are going to create another smokescreen.
> How about the Council for American-Islamic relations? How about the Muslim
> Brotherhood? Get real, eee. All Islamist groups seek the establishment of
> a global caliphate. This is their long-term goal. It is undeniable.
This is completely nonsense. Nobody with a brain will buy it - i.e. most of
your compatriots will :))
It’s like if someone said, that North Corea communists are a threat to the
world, because their program calls for ALL workers to unite.
What is more ridiculous than your claim to be the victim of a sharia-conspi-
racy, while you deliberately started a crusade in the ME, to get the control
over the oil and the gas there, killing hundred thousands of people living
there.
American insanity.
May 6th, 2006 at 11:03 pm
“It’s not important, if Osama himself was or is an agent of the CIA.”
That is eee, for you. Always bringing facts that are “not important” into the debate.
No not really, but you are obviously trying to reduce the problem to the ir-
relevant question,
No, I’m afraid that you are trying to reduce the debate down to irrelevant facts.
Nobody with a brain will buy it
Well I’m glad to hear you buy it completely, then.
May 6th, 2006 at 11:30 pm
The disregard of human live by you, many of your commentator and the politicians that you keep eulogizing is shocking me. Life is so precious and sweet that I would not condone mine or anybody else`s life be wasted. Killing is never justified unless in an act of self-defense while being attacked. The idea that preamption, spreading a certain ideology considered desirable, paving ones way to heavens, or gaining a strategic or geopolitical advantage over the enemy justifies mass murder by people in uniform strikes me as heinous and evil idea. This idea has brought humanity a lot of suffering by people like, Hitler, Stalin, Ibn laden, G W Bush, Ahmed Yaseen, Nasser, Sharon, Saddam. What strikes me even more is that normal people who claim to appreciate human life stand by the same idea when the people upon whom the destruction and death are brought are from a different nation, race, class, religion or even culture.
How could you reduce 2500 human lives, each of them is as precious and rich as yours or mine, to a lifeless percentage that you later use to demonstrate that the occupation of Iraq, with all the mass murder and destruction that accompanied it, is indeed very cheap.
Before you accuse me of wanting a world with saddam in power, i want ti emphasis that this side product of the horrifying war, Bush never claimed this to be its main objective, could have been obtained via much less destructive means. USA has an impressive record of helping or masterminding regime changes all around the world without bombing the people back to the Middle Ages.
Before you accuse me of calling to appease terrorists, i would like to mention a personal memory. During my secondary school a bomb was detonated in the tunnel i cross every day in my way to school this happened 10 minutes after i crossed it, i saw the effects of the explosion and the shrapnel on the concrete walls on my way back home. The grim idea of being there when it exploded filled me with fear and anger. However, upon reflection, this experience filled me with condemnation of any indiscriminate killing whether it is done by a home made explosives or by satellite guided missiles.
May 7th, 2006 at 12:33 am
> Well I’m glad to hear
Im not surprised to see, that you’re finally running out of “arguments”.
May 7th, 2006 at 1:28 am
Bush never claimed this to be its main objective, could have been obtained via much less destructive means.
Through what other means are you suggesting? Taking out Saddam by assassination would have left Uday or Qusay in charge. Hardly an improvement.
May 7th, 2006 at 1:29 am
Im not surprised to see, that you’re finally running out of “argumentsâ€.
LoL. I’ve got plenty of those “arguments” left, eee. Trust me.
But since we are in agreement, why argue?
I’m sure you have plenty of your “facts” left for me as well, right?
May 7th, 2006 at 1:40 am
Well, he came here for death and he got life. Alternatively, the whole hing could have been prevented and he was a pawn. It is no picnic in GP of American prisions. If you think it symbolice, it could be - at least for now.
May 7th, 2006 at 5:50 am
eee, you are a fucking ignorant, foolish idiot. Reading your defecations here is like reading a parody of idiotarian leftist thought.
Tommy, I don’t even know why you bother with that assclown. He’s just pissed because the truth hurts, and like a spoiled child who doesn’t get his way, he wants to have a tantrum. Ignore the spoiled brat.
May 7th, 2006 at 7:14 pm
> eee, you are a fucking ignorant, foolish idiot. Reading your defecations
> here is like reading a parody of idiotarian leftist thought.
Very pathetic.
May 9th, 2006 at 4:44 pm
Amgad, if you saw someone with an AK-47 shooting a bunch of people at a mall, and you had the means to stop him, would you refrain from doing so as long as the person wasn’t shooting at you directly? Or would you feel that you should stop the person?
May 10th, 2006 at 12:57 am
I have always been against the death penalty. The death penalty is not justice, but neither is life imprisonment. I dont fancy the idea of letting this man live his life though, if he was given a capital sentence we could cross his name of our very long list. It would be a clear conclusion. With imprisonment, he can continue to cause problems, even if he is in a Jail.
Need I remind people about Hook Hand Abu Hamza, a rich man recieving huge benifits from the UK, yet demanding its destruction. Today he is in prison, but he knows the system and recently the tax-payers have dished out £5000 for a new hook for him. For that disgusting excuse of a human being, I would kick him out of the country. It is said that the people in his home-town are antious to get hold of him.
May 10th, 2006 at 11:11 pm
SM..some American historical perspective…
Fear is the beginning of wisdom.
Every attempt to make war easy and safe will result in humiliation and disaster.
War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; and those who brought war into our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out.
War is cruelty. There’s no use trying to reform it, the crueler it is the sooner it will be over.
War is the remedy our enemies have chosen, and I say give them all they want.
If the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war, and not popularity seeking.
This war differs from other wars, in this particular. We are not fighting armies but a hostile people, and must make old and young, rich and poor, feel the hard hand of war.
-General William Tecumseh Sherman
eee..
You are an apologist for murderers and terrorists and the very dictators ( Mubarak and royal houses ) you claim to oppose.
I would stop any and all aid to the ME untill they start throwing the mullahs from the minarets and turn the royal houses into tourist traps…and let civil war sweep the ME.. at least then we can have an enemy in front of us instead of snakes behind us and true allies to support instead of relationships based on fear, greed and the false god of stability
You distract and sap the efforts of our democratic allies and those who fight for freedom should be aware of you who would slaughter democracy in its crib… in the night of the long knives
Say a prayer to St Corrie our lady of pancakes and catapillers… you are ready to be fitted for the suicide belt.
I AM NOT a judeo-christian…you should be so lucky to have their tender mercies
…I’d like to ignore him but its too much fun…
meleager
May 11th, 2006 at 5:53 pm
I totally agree with you SM. We Americans are spoiled. Except for Pearl Harbor, we had not experienced any real violence created by an enemy until 9/11. Far too many people look at the world as a modern entity. Ideological wars are something that you read about in the history books.
Ignorance is never bliss, you either pay now or you pay later with an extremely high interest rate. Until 9/11, I was a Democrat who hated war. After 9/11, I decided to learn as much as I could about what happened. I discovered that we had been hit here before at the WTF, that we had been attacked a few other times in other countries. To me, these all were acts of war and nothing really was done about it.
Now, many people cannot seem to comprehend all of the reasons we went to Iraq. On it’s own, Iraq failed a whole line of requirements that the UN had set out. So, the WMD/no WMD issue is just a leftie talking point that they have chosen to spit out at every opportunity, but it was a very small piece of the reason. In the grant scheme, Iraq is only a small piece of the war and unless more people in our country finally decide to start learning about what we are dealing with, the price we will pay someday will be so big, it will affect the majority of our country and quite possibly a very large part of the world.
A comfortable, safe and ignorant life is grand. But, if you want to keep that life it is always necessary to protect it. And yes, even in this day and age, that can and does require blood.
Ask the military. Afterall, it is their lives that are being taken away. And they do it willingly and with pride. Our part of this war is to become educated about the enemy and stop trying to thwart the effort.
Pay now or pay bigger later. The enemy isn’t going to surrender this time people.
May 11th, 2006 at 8:01 pm
Should be “I discovered that we had been hit here before at the WTC,
SM, we don’t have the ability to delete our comments since you moved here. Any way you could “turn it back on”?
Thanks.
May 19th, 2006 at 10:10 am
to Greg from Lawrenceville
Should the measures that I should take to stop this murderer with an AK 47 include dropping a bunch one ton bombs on his village?
November 30th, 2006 at 6:14 pm
Now, go to any military person you know, hell, any historian, and ask them if this fatality rate means that the Americans are losing and that the insurgents are winning. Don’t get mad when he starts laughing at your face. The Media militray experts were expecting a 5% fatality rate just for the invasion people. And 3 years and countless comaprisons to Vietnam later, you didn’t even crack the 2% rate. But sure, you are losing the war and the death rate is too high. Riight.+++++++++
Right. During the WWI, we (the french) support 900 deaths per day during 4 full years (France was a country with less than 38m people in 1914). During the very same year, the german lost 1200 soldiers per day. Huge losses.
Those rate were “acceptable” in 1914-18 : they aren´t anymore.
November 30th, 2006 at 6:15 pm
This is a war you did not want, but one that came to you++++
Wrong : it has been labelled as a war of choice.
December 1st, 2006 at 6:13 am
Bravo, well said Sam. Thanks
December 1st, 2006 at 6:15 am
I grew up watching Walter “Concrete” tell it like it was so much that when it was my turn at the draft lotto. I new that if I went to Nam I would be dead in short order.
Fortunately for me my number was 321, which meant I wasn’t going and glad I was.
Damn Walter Concrite and his ilk in the MSM today for trying to convince us we are losing.
I’m not as soft as I once was; if they come here to fight I plan on sending a few to meet Allah. Yes a lot of Americans are self absorbed and don’t pay attention to what’s going on. Just don’t make the mistake of thinking we’re all that way.
May 19th, 2007 at 4:16 pm
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