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Thursday, 11 May 2006
Here are some pictures of today's War protests :
Policeman in plaincloths beating up a protester.
And he keeps on kicking.
Another protester getting arrested by plainclothed policeman.
A woman sucrries away with her child as she witnesses another protester getting beat up.
One of the protresters tried to bite the hand of the police officer to help free his friend.
And as you can see, he failed miserably, and his friend was held down and beat up by the police (scroll down and see the last pic. it's the same guy).
Police arresting a protester
2 Female protesters. One has the words "No to injustice" written in arabic on her hand, while the other has Free Egypt inscribed on hers.
The Egyptian Occupation security forces deployed and ready for action.
Police arresting a female protester by dragging her on the street.
The Police arresting a demonstrator, while an officer kicks another.
The Police "arresting" a demonstrator. Our Police, a syou can see, can arrest people using their hands or feet.
Sigh…
Now, let me share with you part of this e-mail that I've received from an eye-witness in today's protests:
A
friend and I walked behind the marchers and were getting a feel for the
atmosphere as the marchers turned left onto Adly Street. I was
initially shocked they were letting them march. Yet, within 300 meters
of being on Adly Street, people turned around and began running in the
opposite direction when plain-clothes State Security thugs attacked the
marchers. We followed suit and turned off the main street. After the
initial threat of being attacked by those we could not see subsided, we
regrouped with our larger circle of friends on intersection of the
street parallel to Talaat Harb and Adly streets. We walked south on
that street and as I looked up I saw three plain clothes state security
personnel forcibly escorting a protester coming towards us. One state
security officer was on each side holding the demonstrator while the
third officer punched him in the face, in the stomach, and slapped him
on the head. The protester could not defend himself. After that
protester passed, I noticed a second but identical incident occurring
in front of us. About this time, a female journalist pulled out her
camera and snapped a picture. The man beating the protester ran towards
her with the intent of taking her camera. The journalist was frightened
and retreated. The thug did not relent. A friend of mine and I stepped
between the female journalist and the thug. As he starred us down, I
said to him, “She is a journalist.” He did care. The journalist was
screaming “No! No! No!” at him. He looked at me and said “And where are
you from?” I said “America” and he asked “Where in America?” I felt
like saying any small town name from any obscure state and asking the
ignorant bastard if he knew it. He
asked for my press card. I told him “I don’t have one.” Then he
threatened me by saying, “I will take you and then we call the US
embassy and let them sort out your problem.” My friend injected and
said there was no problem. The security officer snapped back, “And who
are you?” He replied respectfully and the officer tried to further
intimidate us. To my shock, my friend cracked a smile and remained
polite. A more senior officer in a suit walked by and told the
subordinate minion to leave us alone and “not to hit anyone”. Then, he
shot us one last dirty look and we parted.
friend and I walked behind the marchers and were getting a feel for the
atmosphere as the marchers turned left onto Adly Street. I was
initially shocked they were letting them march. Yet, within 300 meters
of being on Adly Street, people turned around and began running in the
opposite direction when plain-clothes State Security thugs attacked the
marchers. We followed suit and turned off the main street. After the
initial threat of being attacked by those we could not see subsided, we
regrouped with our larger circle of friends on intersection of the
street parallel to Talaat Harb and Adly streets. We walked south on
that street and as I looked up I saw three plain clothes state security
personnel forcibly escorting a protester coming towards us. One state
security officer was on each side holding the demonstrator while the
third officer punched him in the face, in the stomach, and slapped him
on the head. The protester could not defend himself. After that
protester passed, I noticed a second but identical incident occurring
in front of us. About this time, a female journalist pulled out her
camera and snapped a picture. The man beating the protester ran towards
her with the intent of taking her camera. The journalist was frightened
and retreated. The thug did not relent. A friend of mine and I stepped
between the female journalist and the thug. As he starred us down, I
said to him, “She is a journalist.” He did care. The journalist was
screaming “No! No! No!” at him. He looked at me and said “And where are
you from?” I said “America” and he asked “Where in America?” I felt
like saying any small town name from any obscure state and asking the
ignorant bastard if he knew it. He
asked for my press card. I told him “I don’t have one.” Then he
threatened me by saying, “I will take you and then we call the US
embassy and let them sort out your problem.” My friend injected and
said there was no problem. The security officer snapped back, “And who
are you?” He replied respectfully and the officer tried to further
intimidate us. To my shock, my friend cracked a smile and remained
polite. A more senior officer in a suit walked by and told the
subordinate minion to leave us alone and “not to hit anyone”. Then, he
shot us one last dirty look and we parted.
We
turned right to get on the street parallel to Adly Street and then
right again to get back on Talaat Harb Street. We proceeded to the
intersection from where we could see the back of the High Court, which
was behind phalanxes of CSF. About this time, more CSF were showing up
on street corners. I thought it was in case of an emergency that they
could quickly seal the streets off. We were standing and chatting near
the CSF at the High Court when a group gathered. A friend went over and
said that they were interviewing someone. When the interview ended,
applause roared out from through watching the man giving the interview.
Within 30-seconds that group started holding up signs that read
“Pharmacists of Egypt with Judges of Egypt”. They were chanting
slogans. Journalists started talking to protesters and video
journalists were recording the scene. My guess is that there were 30-50
people participating in the ad hoc demo. Within 2 minutes a battalion
of around 200 plain-clothes State Security thugs emerged from the
southward direction on Talaat Harb Street. A majority of those thugs
sieged the demonstrators carrying them away in groups of, at least,
three-on-one as they beat them into submission. They were stuffing the
demonstrators they carted away into the entrances of non-descript
downtown buildings.
turned right to get on the street parallel to Adly Street and then
right again to get back on Talaat Harb Street. We proceeded to the
intersection from where we could see the back of the High Court, which
was behind phalanxes of CSF. About this time, more CSF were showing up
on street corners. I thought it was in case of an emergency that they
could quickly seal the streets off. We were standing and chatting near
the CSF at the High Court when a group gathered. A friend went over and
said that they were interviewing someone. When the interview ended,
applause roared out from through watching the man giving the interview.
Within 30-seconds that group started holding up signs that read
“Pharmacists of Egypt with Judges of Egypt”. They were chanting
slogans. Journalists started talking to protesters and video
journalists were recording the scene. My guess is that there were 30-50
people participating in the ad hoc demo. Within 2 minutes a battalion
of around 200 plain-clothes State Security thugs emerged from the
southward direction on Talaat Harb Street. A majority of those thugs
sieged the demonstrators carrying them away in groups of, at least,
three-on-one as they beat them into submission. They were stuffing the
demonstrators they carted away into the entrances of non-descript
downtown buildings.
At
that point, I also saw thugs attacking journalists. They beat the
Al-Jazeera video cameraperson as well as the Reuters videographer. Then
they began attacking female Egyptian/American journalists. By this
point, I was distancing myself away from the core of the scuffle to get
some protection and perspective. All I can hear was a female screaming
bloody murder as State Security pulled her hair and tried to steal her
camera.
that point, I also saw thugs attacking journalists. They beat the
Al-Jazeera video cameraperson as well as the Reuters videographer. Then
they began attacking female Egyptian/American journalists. By this
point, I was distancing myself away from the core of the scuffle to get
some protection and perspective. All I can hear was a female screaming
bloody murder as State Security pulled her hair and tried to steal her
camera.
We
managed to all escaped southward and into the Excelsior café across
from the Miami cinema to regroup. All the women journalists I was with
were shaken up and a little roughed up but not injured.
[...]
Basically
to sum-up my experience this morning: A significant amount of people
(Islamists, MB, Kifaya, liberals, pharmacists, and others) came out to
protest in solidarity against the trumped-up joke that has become the
Egyptian legal system’s pro-regime lackeys trying their own. While the
amounts of security made one unified gathering impossible, a number of
sporadic protests took place when possible. It was sort of like a game
of cat and mouse.
to sum-up my experience this morning: A significant amount of people
(Islamists, MB, Kifaya, liberals, pharmacists, and others) came out to
protest in solidarity against the trumped-up joke that has become the
Egyptian legal system’s pro-regime lackeys trying their own. While the
amounts of security made one unified gathering impossible, a number of
sporadic protests took place when possible. It was sort of like a game
of cat and mouse.
I
have often questioned the utility of all the protesting that has
occurred in Cairo since December 2004. Yet, today was impressive to
watch people come out and start chanting when they knew security was
going to respond within minutes – arresting some of them, beating some
of them. Rather than give up, the remaining protesters would disperse
and regroup and challenge the state again, against all hopes of
actually achieving anything. Their bravery and their tenacity should be
commended. Regardless of the people detained since 24 April (according
to HRW, the number is over 100), people continue to turn out in the
face of their decreasing numbers.
have often questioned the utility of all the protesting that has
occurred in Cairo since December 2004. Yet, today was impressive to
watch people come out and start chanting when they knew security was
going to respond within minutes – arresting some of them, beating some
of them. Rather than give up, the remaining protesters would disperse
and regroup and challenge the state again, against all hopes of
actually achieving anything. Their bravery and their tenacity should be
commended. Regardless of the people detained since 24 April (according
to HRW, the number is over 100), people continue to turn out in the
face of their decreasing numbers.
Also, reports came in that said that a CSF truck fell over the 6th October Bridge in Abbasaya killing 10 and injuring 20 of the CSF conscripts.
This
state is hopeless. It is authoritarian and rotten to its core and one
can only hope that some sort of change occurs. Yet, I remain skeptical
that no matter how brave or stubborn the social forces resisting the
state are, that much can be achieved. In Egypt, there can be no third
way. This is not a state that is behaving like its scared or weak. It
is a state that is boldly asserting its repressive power against its
unarmed citizens. This state is not interested in practicing politics.
It is incapable of dealing with its polity politically or diffusing
political problems. Instead, it relies on repression, coercion, and
intimidation. A high majority of Egyptians will be forced in
acquiescence through fear. Yet, fear cannot and will not ever expand
regime power.
state is hopeless. It is authoritarian and rotten to its core and one
can only hope that some sort of change occurs. Yet, I remain skeptical
that no matter how brave or stubborn the social forces resisting the
state are, that much can be achieved. In Egypt, there can be no third
way. This is not a state that is behaving like its scared or weak. It
is a state that is boldly asserting its repressive power against its
unarmed citizens. This state is not interested in practicing politics.
It is incapable of dealing with its polity politically or diffusing
political problems. Instead, it relies on repression, coercion, and
intimidation. A high majority of Egyptians will be forced in
acquiescence through fear. Yet, fear cannot and will not ever expand
regime power.
Lastly,
word has emerged that the judges under trial – Hisham Bastawisi and
Mahmoud Mekki - went to the High Court this morning accompanied by
their lawyers and a delegation of judges. They were told that their
entourage could not enter the High Court. Instead, only 8 people would
be allowed to enter and the court informed them that it reserved the
right to select their delegates. Bastawisi and Mekki refused to enter
after this gross insult. They left the court and returned to the Judges
Club where they remain hold up with scores of their colleagues. They
say they will not be going to any more court cases until the Security
Forces are removed from the streets and the protesters are released.
word has emerged that the judges under trial – Hisham Bastawisi and
Mahmoud Mekki - went to the High Court this morning accompanied by
their lawyers and a delegation of judges. They were told that their
entourage could not enter the High Court. Instead, only 8 people would
be allowed to enter and the court informed them that it reserved the
right to select their delegates. Bastawisi and Mekki refused to enter
after this gross insult. They left the court and returned to the Judges
Club where they remain hold up with scores of their colleagues. They
say they will not be going to any more court cases until the Security
Forces are removed from the streets and the protesters are released.
The
pro-reform judges were Egypt’s heroes before today. Now, they are not
only heroes but legends. And they are the most important symbols of
this very nasty and seemingly hopeless struggle for the political heart
and future of Egypt.
In agreement!
May 11th, 2006 at 1:39 pm
Well, that’s what you get for chosing to live in a dictatorship. Let that be a lesson.
May 11th, 2006 at 1:48 pm
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOl, nice one Kim Hartveld. Chosing??? Who choses to live in a dictatorship? You are born into one. How far is your head up your ass, may I ask?
May 11th, 2006 at 1:54 pm
EBU: Does the media have the right to offend?
Lisbeth Knudsen, the managing director of Danish Radio led things off with a quote from Bob Dylan: “Something is going on. You don’t know what it is. Do you Mrs Jones?” She said that the world probably still doesn’t know…
May 11th, 2006 at 1:56 pm
Where will this end?
Thanks for the pictures anyhow!
Were did you get them, if I may ask?
May 11th, 2006 at 2:05 pm
Kim Hartveld stupid ass biotch
May 11th, 2006 at 2:05 pm
Yes, ragtag, CHOSING.
You see that guy in the top picture in the brown car?
He sees someone being kicked and than CHOSES to drive off.
See the other guy standing in front of that van?
He CHOSES to stand by and do nothing.
Any other selfrespecting people would get involved and beat the shit out of the guy. The Egyptian people obviously CHOOSE not to. And that’s why they’re in the state they’re in. They have no one to blame but themselves. Bunch of pathetic losers.
Get it, ragtag?
May 11th, 2006 at 2:14 pm
[...] Reader Cathy M. tips me to Sandmonkey’s post this morning on crowd control … Egyptian-style. [...]
May 11th, 2006 at 2:17 pm
No I don’t.
You’re the pathetic loser. How come you, sitting on your ass in your comfy home get to pass judgement on the people of a whole country based on what you’ve seen someone in a van in picture does. What about the thousands of others in the demonstration risking their very lives. Taking part in a demonstration in this part of the world is a life and death decision. Even the man in the van, how do u know what he did after the snapshot or before? Maybe he’s a guy driving to the demonstration, maybe after the picture was taken he stopped his car and went to help, and maybe not. How do you know?? How is it you get to judge him you dipshit. Kiss my Egyptian ass.
May 11th, 2006 at 2:51 pm
Well, ragtag, who’s the loser here? Me, sitting on my ass in my comfy democratic home, or you, having your Egyptian ass kicked by the secret police?
How do you think democracies came about? By someone passing out democracy starter kits? No, ragtag, it was because someone decided no longer to put up with shit like you see in those pictures.
You may not agree with me, but you simply can’t win this argument.
Cause if you do, you’ll be stuck with Mubarak & Co for the rest of your life.
You make the CHOICE.
May 11th, 2006 at 2:53 pm
Egyptian meltdown
Egyptian blogger Alaa is jailed, the Egyptian government starts watching Sandmonkey, and forces crack down on pro-reform demonstrations.
I’m worried for Sandmonkey. Lots of details and pictures of the demonstration crackdown at his site. Jus…
May 11th, 2006 at 3:16 pm
What’s the Jooz fault in all this?
May 11th, 2006 at 3:28 pm
It’s all the jooz fault,
You see the jooz enticed the demonstrations in the first place in order to destablize the regime of our benevolent leader. Later on the jooz infiltrated the demonstrators in order to provoke national security guards and cause them to beat up people. The jooz or agents of the jooz where in place to take the pictures posted by sandmonkey (a jooo lover) showing the national guard beating the demonstrators when actually they where mearly defending themselves.
As you can see its all the jooz conspiracy to bring down our great democratic nation Egypt. Long live Mubarak.
Somebody please shoot me now.
May 11th, 2006 at 3:32 pm
another Egyptian blogger
http://mehrez786.blogspot.com/2006/05/blog-post_11.html
identifies 2 of his friends in the pictures.
the guy in red in the 5th picture getting beaten is yehia samy. the one arrested in the 6th is Mohamed soulieman.
I think its really chilling to find people you know in agencies’ photos.
May 11th, 2006 at 3:32 pm
Amazing - Kim Hartveld alone and unaided was the instigator of democracy, all done from his “comfy democratic home”. Hang your heads Abe Lincoln and Tommy Jefferson. I’d heard that KH was just an udersized, spotty toerag that everybody bullied and just wanted to get even. Well, how wrong can you be.
May 11th, 2006 at 3:49 pm
Jesus. They’re storming the Bastille.
May 11th, 2006 at 3:56 pm
Ragtag,
Who choses to live in a dictatorship?
Dictators? Cronies of dictators? Anyone who wishes to impose their will (or their beliefs) on others, and seeks the power to do so?
Dictatorship is the natural form of human society. It’s democracy that is un-natural.
May 11th, 2006 at 4:03 pm
Craig Who choses to live in a dictatorship?
Surely Ragtag’s point is that most of the folk who are being beaten up there, have neither the means nor the opportunity to go live elsewhere. If there ever was a “natural form of human society” it was probably tribal and hard but I doubt that there would have been such large-scale brutality within the clan.
May 11th, 2006 at 4:18 pm
Your enthousiasm is very moving, maybe some day we’ll see you guys in Paris or London struggling for seats at conferences, not for Gucci jeans on the high street sales, but frankly I doubt it, nothing better than a nice speech and then every one goes back home with relief and life goes on.
May 11th, 2006 at 4:25 pm
To : huh?
huh……??????
May 11th, 2006 at 4:28 pm
ragtag_the_3rd Says:
huh……??????
Could I just add huh……??????
May 11th, 2006 at 4:34 pm
Kim Hartveld,
It is “choosing”, not “CHOSING.”
No one CHOSES anything.
How about you CHOSE to shut your fucking mouth for a little bit if you have nothing further to add.
What country are you even from?
May 11th, 2006 at 4:34 pm
Craig,
“Dictatorship is the natural form of human society. It’s democracy that is un-natural.”
I get what you’re trying to say but there is no one natural form of human society. Throughout history there was tribalism, monarchism, sectism, theocracy, republic, anarchy, mob-rule etc, etc, etc. The form of human society taken by any people depends on the time period and the economic-social-political circumstances of the people.
At this very point in histroy the previously mentioned circumstances are pushing us Egyptians in either one of two directions, either an Islamic theocracy or a more democratic republic. It all depends on the events that will unfold in the coming years.
May 11th, 2006 at 4:43 pm
Kim Hartveld, you’re absolutely right, egyptians deserve everything that happens to them, they worshipped a monster called Nasser, then they only want democracy to usher in another monster called the moslem brotherhood who’ll make mubarak look like a gandhi.
Mohamed @ 3:32, why don’t you use another name buddy, I don’t know any of those people you’ve mentioned, and I certainly don’t know grown up men who bite.
May 11th, 2006 at 4:51 pm
Ragtag,
I get what you’re trying to say but there is no one natural form of human society. Throughout history there was tribalism, monarchism, sectism, theocracy, republic, anarchy, mob-rule etc, etc, etc.
The only one of those that’s “natural” is tribalism. The others are constructs of advanced civilizations.
Tribalism is when the guy with the biggest stick (or the biggest friends) tells the rest the tribe what to do, and they do it.
That’s what’s “natural” for human beings. Monarchy was an attempt to make the natural “dictatorship” into something hereditary. I’m not going to dissect the rest, but any form of authoritarian rule is basically an extension of the natural human condition. It’s only democracy that is not pert of the natural progression. Deomcracy was (and is) a not an evolutionary change, it’s a radical revolution, both conceptually and, usually, in practice.
All that said, these protests in Egypt *could be* the start of a deomcratic revolution. I hope that they are. But I strongly doubt it, as I don’t think this protest movement is being fueled (primarily) by people who want democracy.
May 11th, 2006 at 4:52 pm
I’m not going to just sit here and watch the brutality unfold.
Here goes a strong letter to the elected officials that are SUPPOSED to represent me and the other folks around here.
I will say they are betraying my trust in their integrity by giving my tax dollars to an oppressive government that does not allow freedom of speech.
I’m steaming! I work 1/3 of a year just to fulfill my tax obligation so they can give it to governments so they can hire the thugs that oppress the people of a country?!?!
Growl!
May 11th, 2006 at 4:57 pm
Anon says :
“Surely Ragtag’s point is that most of the folk who are being beaten up there, have neither the means nor the opportunity to go live elsewhere.”
I couldn’t have put it better myself.
May 11th, 2006 at 5:01 pm
[...] Have a look at these lovely posters of a democratic Egypt that deserves over $2 billion in aid from the USA alone. –> 156 days left to BOOT this parliament OUT! [...]
May 11th, 2006 at 5:08 pm
Craig,
This realy depends on your definition of natural. In this case I think by natural you mean primal. The tribal system in many instances can be way more advanced than the “biggest stick” analogy. Republics existed way back in history during the time of the Roman empire. Tribalism still exist today in many parts in the world. As I said it depends on the circumstances and the people.
May 11th, 2006 at 5:10 pm
Completely looks like Iran during the 1999 Students protests
May 11th, 2006 at 5:23 pm
It’ s beyond me where the state finds people to fill the ranks of their protestor-beating force.
Where do these people come from?
May 11th, 2006 at 5:26 pm
Sorry if this seems OT but if the left-wing media here in the States and Europe (forget state run media in the ME) gave just 1% of the time they spend claiming that Bush is a dictator, theocrat, ect, to the REAL brutality and oppression taking place in Egypt (and other oppressive regimes) then the liberals and reformers there might have a snowballs chance in hell. But as long as those who disseminate the vast majority of information on this planet continue to allow themselves to be blinded by thier intense hatred of anything American, or more specifically one particular politician from Texas, I fear there will not be enough international pressure for the Egyptian government to do anything.
American protestors can get on TV or get quoted in just about every newspaper saying how rotten the American government and George W. Bush are for “spying on Americans” or starting a “war for oil” and in the next breath say that thier freedom of speech is being supressed.
Our media put people like this up on a pedestal and celebrates thier “bravery” for dissenting and speaking out against the repressive American administration and then completely ignore the genuine bravery of men like The Sandmonkey, Alaa, and all your fellow travellers doing their best to bring about change in a part of the world that so desperately needs it.
May 11th, 2006 at 5:32 pm
Excellent point and completely not off-topic, Jeff Boeing.
May 11th, 2006 at 5:48 pm
Reposted comment ” thanks for the link and for what you are doing Sandmonkey, I am now seriously afraid for your security yabni - you do have guts .
I ‘m optimistic that this showdown will turn into something positive , I do hope that no one gets killed in the process but I do think that there will be a lot of victims before the tide turns . However you are aware Sandmonkey that the MB may just become the future leaders in Egypt don’t you ?
Those pictures are horrible and sad and outrageous but unfortunately that is the reality
May 11th, 2006 at 7:01 pm
The Ambassador of the Arab Republic of Egypt, H.E. Ambassador Nabil Fahmy,request the pleasure of your company for a book launching presenting Shirley Johnston’s recently published work entitled Egyptian Palaces and Villas. This event will be held at the Embassy of Egypt on Tuesday May 23, 2006 at 6:30 pm.
Please RSVP to the Egyptian Embassy 202-895-5463
We look forward to seeing you there.
May 11th, 2006 at 7:06 pm
This is incredible and terribly sad news coming from Egypt.
but I lost it when I read:
“Our Police, a syou can see, can arrest people using their hands or feet.”
very witty SM.
May 11th, 2006 at 7:52 pm
> Now, let me share with you part of this e-mail that I’ve received
> from an eye-witness in today’s protests …
Thank GOD the legitimate and well fed government of Egypt fights
against the irresponsible MOB of the Muslim Brotherhood on its streets!
A strong government, which will not retreat when it comes to fight
for stability in the Middle east, the sine qua non to secure the realm
of Israel the only democracy in the middle east and the US - the light
unto all nations.
May God bless Hosni Mubarak and all our allies!
May 11th, 2006 at 8:00 pm
Help me here, wasn’t Mubarak elected? if, who are those folks in the street ?
are you guys going to end up with some wackjob Islamic government?
seems to me that Egypt was more modern 10 years ago than it is now, be careful what you wish for, pick a color start a revolution.
May 11th, 2006 at 8:04 pm
Bad Boy, what’s Nabil Fahmy got to do with what’s happening in Egypt, regardless what that dumbass monkey thinks, ideally he represents Egypt not the Egyptian government, and he’s doing a great job at that.
May 11th, 2006 at 8:10 pm
Clubbing commies & islamo fascists is ok by me.
Democracy isn’t alsways the best choice when the mob wants to vote for stupidity and islamo fascism and they’re in the majority.
You wouldn ‘t want another Iran would ya?
Democracy elected the Mullahs.
May 11th, 2006 at 8:19 pm
Highlander said: “However you are aware Sandmonkey that the MB may just become the future leaders in Egypt don’t you ?”
This is a true statement. The MB are the only ones with a plan. They have the organisation, the money and access to weapons and those that know how to use them.
The only way to change the present Egyptian government is by force, and that is what the MB has in mind and is planning.
They are just waiting for the right moment to begin the revolution.
Then Eqypt will have a new government, an Islamic government with all the 17th century rules and regulations.
The dark ages will once again desend upon Egypt.
Papa Ray
West Texas
USA
May 11th, 2006 at 8:23 pm
> who are those folks in the street ?
Holocaust deniers. If they bring down Mubarak - one of our best
friends - another holocaust becomes inevitable!
Beware of the MB and their tools like this Sandmonkey!
May 11th, 2006 at 8:25 pm
Well said Jeff…I get angrier everyday.
May 11th, 2006 at 9:04 pm
What’s with the Kicking?
Protesters in the US need to look at these protesters in Egypt. This is bravery. This is “patriotic dissent.”
May 11th, 2006 at 9:18 pm
Do these “security forces” not have a conscience?! I wish I could be there to spit in their ugly faces. The 10th picture of the old woman in the blue dress being pulled by those men is very disturbing. I hope the protesters give them more than what they bargained for. Damn you Mubarak.
May 11th, 2006 at 9:21 pm
When about 1% of the population is ready to kill or die to get rid of the current government, the government will fall, and no amount of force will keep it propped up.
It even happened in Romania … people were standing in line, waiting for the rare armed citizen to get shot, so they could grab that rifle and start fighting the state themselves.
Until 1 or 2% of Egyptians are that angry, it is going to be really hard on those who want change.
People who revolt early almost always end up paying full price for liberty.
May 11th, 2006 at 9:29 pm
True Kristopher.
Smitty: what happened in Iran was exactly what you are asking for. They had a tyranny backed by the West. It BACKFIRED.
Reading Smitty and Papa Ray & Co for the first time I am starting to think that eee has a point.
May 11th, 2006 at 9:39 pm
[...] Reader Cathy M. tips me to Sandmonkey’s post this morning on crowd control … Egyptian-style. [...]
May 11th, 2006 at 10:02 pm
The only natural state about man and the numerous forms of government lies in a person’s commitment to keep themselves in power. Of which, they will do anything to maintain that. And a person, first and foremost, does things to satisfy their own goals.
@ Kim Hartveld, what would you do if you saw someone getting beaten in the street, would you help? Would you fight off the attackers hand-to hand? More than likely No, you wouldn’t intervene that way because you wouldnt want to put your life in danger. In a sitution like that, its not plausible to character analyze and judge a people and dismiss, degrade them.
Yes, the people voted for their leaders but when you control the knowledge you control the decision-making. Knowledge is liberating, and the absence of choice presents a dictatorship.
So when you have people who want power, and don’t want to be accountable to others, they justify their actions by using any means necessary, and alot of the times, they use religion, because it is seen as the “only undenieable force” to people and they accept that.
May 11th, 2006 at 10:05 pm
Maybe the protesters need to start wearing t-shirts with American flags on them. Or would that just get them set on fire?
May 11th, 2006 at 10:09 pm
> The dark ages will once again desend upon Egypt.
You got it.
Mubarak is our friend - and Sandmonkey - supporter of the
MB - is absolutely irresponsible, to say the least.
So all brave amnesians should opt for good old Mubarak,
cuz we cannot afford another democracy in the Middle East…
May 11th, 2006 at 10:15 pm
Protest Crackdown in Egypt
With photos.
May 11th, 2006 at 10:43 pm
“chosing to live in a dictatorship.” You ar joking right? Bush has Mubarak as a puppet in Egypt to keep of fend of the Islamists. The Muslim Brotherhood would be in so quick if it was a democracy.
May 11th, 2006 at 11:51 pm
Great pics -
I hope my fellow Americans who favor “stability” in the Middle East can see in these pictures how such stability is achieved.
Egypts dictatorship might keep Al Qaeda and MB elements “in line” with the same tactics, but you can see that they find democracy and freedom for Egyptians every bit as threatening.
For America it is not a matter of chosing “stability” vs. “chaos” but right vs. wrong. Screw the dictators - it is time we had a foreign policy completely keeping with our political value system.
May 12th, 2006 at 12:02 am
I admire the protesters. Looks like Tienenman square in China circa 1989. Unfortunately, that didn’t work out too well either. When a state is unashamed of it’s repression it can last a long time.
May 12th, 2006 at 12:18 am
Kim Hartveld: “because someone decided no longer to put up with shit like you see in those pictures”
What the hell do you think those pictures are? What Egyptians are doing right now is exactly that. Dingbat.
May 12th, 2006 at 12:32 am
Jeff Boeing #31, right on!!!
May 12th, 2006 at 2:06 am
Mubarak ‘Stomping On Democracy’ As Egyptian Police Beat Pro-Democracy Marchers -
The violence appears to signal a tough new zero tolerance stance by the government toward protests demanding reform and expressing discontent that President Hosni Mubarak has backed off promises of democratic change.
May 12th, 2006 at 2:28 am
[...] Rantings of a Sandmonkey has TONS of riot photos, as well as a riveting firsthand account of what it was like to be at a demonstration, in an email from a someone who was right there. You got to see this post here. [...]
May 12th, 2006 at 4:58 am
For 60 years, my country, the United States, pursued stability at the expense of democracy in this region here in the Middle East — and we achieved neither.
Remarks at the American University in Cairo
Secretary Condoleezza Rice
Cairo, Egypt
June 20, 2005
“We should all look to a future when every government respects the will of its citizens — because the ideal of democracy is universal. For 60 years, my country, the United States, pursued stability at the expense of democracy in this region here in the Middle East — and we achieved neither.Now, we are taking a different course. We are supporting the democratic aspirations of all people.”
http://www.state.gov/secretary/rm/2005/48328.htm
May 12th, 2006 at 5:16 am
Let me straighten something up here. Sandmonkey is not a supporter of the MB. He doesn’t like their stupidity anymore than he likes Mubarek. However, there are things that need to be said:
Why is the MB the most powerful opposition in Egypt? After the Assassination of Sadat and a series of bad bombing decisions by the MB that ended with innocent dead, the MB was all but gone from Egypt by the end of the 80’s. At least, their drawing power was seriously diminished. Egypt was beginning to feel the effects of improved security and new economic growth from trade agreements, particularly with Israel (why Sadat was killed). Many of the Mujihadeen had went off to Afghanistan and posed less of an internal problem.
At the same time, Mubarek realized that with improving situation he wouldn’t be able to hold on to power. People would demand the rights they had been promised would come. So, what does he do? Makes an agreement with the MB. It would secure the peace in Egypt, give the MB some political cover and set up an opposition that did not have as much sympathy from the public because of its previous activities, but that would be the scary “other”.
So, no one questioned when he extended extensive emergency law or regulated voting or anything else because everyone looked to the NDP as the secular party of enlightenment or at least not as terrible as the rest.
The MB played into his hands easily by continuing to make foolish statements along side of perfectly legitimate concerns about oppressions and repression.
Now, here we are twenty five years later with Mubarek still in place having achieved three 7 year terms and now on his fourth. The MB finally got their stuff together and started talking the talk ofthe people about elections, democracy and rights. now, they don’t support rights in the way that we imagine them and that is a problem, but their message resonated as well as their works in the public so that their popularity began to spread while Mubarek pretended that he could still ignore the aspirations of the people.
NOw Mubarek finds himself in a precarious position. the MB his government had made legitimate could, if allowed to, rival them in many districts if it was a fair vote. People were no longer so sure that he and the NDP represented protection. They no longer feared the MB as much as the feared the government apparatus.
Now, new/old democratic forces come forward and join together because they know that their previous toiling separate and away from each other, not focusing on the one goal they all wanted, true democracy and good government, had kept them from the power they hoped for. This group is made up of all sorts of people from the communists to socialists to Pan Arabists to democrats and true liberals. They call themselves “kifayah” or “enough”.
Now Mubarek and the NDP cannot let them exist. If they did, if they compete for parliament, the seats that will go to them will not be the MB seats, they will be the NDP seats. instead of supporting them in the face of the MB and helping to boos their image in MB districts, thus painting the way towards a liberal democracy, the NDP painted themselves into a corner and cannot see anyway out but to suppress any other democratic challengers.
They know if they lose the seats in Parliament to this group, they may indeed lose the number of seats (or majority) that is required to form the government by the laws of Egypt (and if there is anything most autocratic states want, it’s to at least look like they are following the law). They would either have to share power directly with their fellow democrats (or others) or be forced out all together and allow the MB to form the government.
Further, they have jacked with the rules of parliament so much that they must rightly fear that they could not stop certain “reform laws” going through and not all of them would be to the liking of such folks as Alaa and Sandmonkey.
However, there is a point where it isn’t going to matter. the NDP continues to repress free speech and mess with the courts. Very openly and with little care for what people think. They will do it to such a point that they must either become a regime like Saddam (death on mass scale; reprisals against whole groups; imprisonment beyond its current practices, etc) or that the opposition groups form up with each other in a massive scale that Mubarek is unable to stop accept again, to use unprecedented force or to step aside.
Now, while I can understand the position that the NDP finds itself in, it has completely alienated the forces that may have been anyway sympathetic to the idea that the MB was a dangerous group. It thinks that it can keep doing it so it will. Understanding that problem, there is still a matter of principle to be upheld and may even be shared among the MB and the liberals.
That is the idea of a just government that treats all people equal before the law; a protection that is necessary from the beginning to help secure “good society” where, above and beyond the concept of rule by law and democracy, people share a common unspoken contract that they live in reasonable assurance from physical, emotional or monetary harm from their neighbors or the state and if there is such an action against them, they have recourse through the law to get compensation or see justice for the harm.
Without this, good society doesn’t exist and without that, democracy cannot exist (current problem in Iraq; with militias and sectarianism, it’s worse than when there was just one law, saddam’s law; now there are thirty groups with different laws).
the NDP will never let it’s thumb off the judiciary though, even if this one thing might go a long way towards re-establishng the government of Egypt as legitimate in the eyes of its people. If it does, the first thing that is likely to happen is not simply that it could not prosecute or persecute it’s opposers, but that the law would be required to investigate and prosecute a huge number of the NDP’s own people, thus damaging their image and throwing them from power anyway.
There is no good end for the NDP. At most, it could plan to reform the judiciary, declare it’s independence, right after they right a law providing amnesty for all of it’s bad folks. It would also have to establish a citizens watch on the police and at least appear to prosecute those who have perpetrated violence against the people, mistreatment and bribery.
The NDP itself would have to change how it worked.
Probably not going to happen, though. That would be admitting defeat because no matter what, the NDP is going to go from power; either slowly through legitimate elections or quick in the revolution. Sadly, it might be years before it happens.
The number of protesters are probably looked upon as a nuisance by most Egyptians. They do not see it’s power, so they will not follow. People feel much more comfortable in groups because it is less likely they will be targeted on average for their actions.
How this works is the people see that others are willing to stand up for what they believe and, if the purpose is strong enough, more people will join. Maybe someday it will mean peaceful change. But, it may well mean that the MB form the government. However, if the democratic movements outside the MB are not allowed to grow, all that is going to happen is that the MB will slowly take the seats from the NDP anyway and there will be no allies for secularism or not enough to keep the tide from totally turning.
The NDP really has to decide which it is: slow and sure or fast and painful.
May 12th, 2006 at 5:41 am
Let me join you here. With you!
May 12th, 2006 at 6:09 am
What a piece of trash that kim hartveld is indeed
It’s incredible there are people like that, with an absolute lack of compassion. F. her.
May 12th, 2006 at 6:20 am
[...] Outside, police violently dispersed demonstrations in their support…again. This time, police and “middle-aged men with walkie-talkies” (Issandr’s description) also beat journalists from Al-Jazeera, Reuters, and the Associated Press. They also briefly detained an employee of the U.S. Embassy. Sandmonkey was blogging the day’s events in real-time. Issandr has a good account at Arabist and photographs on Flickr. A friend sent me an account with some analysis by email. (I wasn’t there. I’ve moved from idyllic Brooklyn to even-more-idyllic Prince Edward Island. Given the government’s increasingly bizarre behavior, am starting to wonder if I’ll be let back into Egypt. All bets are off.) [...]
May 12th, 2006 at 7:39 am
Those paid police officers who are attacking peaceful protestors… they are the ones who have chosen to live in a dictatorship.
May 12th, 2006 at 9:05 am
[...] Only they couldn’t gather, because the police had gotten there first and beat and kicked away anyone who tried to converge as a group to protest. Sandmonkey’s pictures are unbelievable. The whole ordeal is unbelievable. [...]
May 12th, 2006 at 9:39 am
to kim y dont u start worryin about ur own fuckin government n leave us in peace biaaaaaatch….
May 12th, 2006 at 10:56 am
“Yet, today was impressive to watch people come out and start chanting when they knew security was going to respond within minutes – arresting some of them, beating some of them. Rather than give up, the remaining protesters would disperse and regroup and challenge the state again, against all hopes of actually achieving anything. Their bravery and their tenacity should be commended.”
When the regime only has fear, and fear isn’t stopping people, it’s just a matter of time now.
“The pro-reform judges were Egypt’s heroes before today. Now, they are not
only heroes but legends. And they are the most important symbols of
this very nasty and seemingly hopeless struggle for the political heart
and future of Egypt.”
To me, this is very impressive, people are out protesting FOR the rule of law, for impartial justice and at bottom for freedom to live under law. This is the best of humanity and what does the regime do? It beats these people. One picture looks like they’re dragging a grandmother by her hair. Disgusting. These are the people that make for a peaceful, just and prosperous country. These people are the backbones of any society. The regime is breaking the back of it’s own society. What’ll happen? It’ll paralyze itself, it’s apparently braindead already.
May 12th, 2006 at 11:02 am
[...] Rantings of a Sandmonkey has some thorough coverage of the demonstrations that occurred in Egypt yesterday. It's not at all encouraging right now. The reports of the security forces going after reporters is paticularly alarming. [...]
May 12th, 2006 at 11:20 am
Shallow mindless assholes like Kim Hartveld should have to experience life as a low-tier Egyptian, a Shia Bahraini, a bedou Saudi, a gay Lebanese, a Bahia Iranian or one of the many other oppressed citizens in the Middle East.
If this foolish airhead has such limited knowledge about the region he would be well advised to keep quiet.
May 12th, 2006 at 1:12 pm
[...] Demonstrators and journalists showing support for judges demanding independence from Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak were beaten by riot police officers yesterday. (Photos of the demonstrations here.) [...]
May 12th, 2006 at 3:44 pm
Visit my blog to read articles on the recent protests and goverment reactions in Egypt. A US response to the issue will also follow shortly.
http://egyptianobserver.blogspot.com
May 12th, 2006 at 4:07 pm
Jade,
Shallow mindless assholes like Kim Hartveld should have to experience life as a low-tier Egyptian, a Shia Bahraini, a bedou Saudi, a gay Lebanese, a Bahia Iranian or one of the many other oppressed citizens in the Middle East.
Which of those things are you? I’m always a bit suspicious of anyone who claims somebody else is unqualified to voice a personal opinion, but perhaps you can change my mind. I wish I could tell all those asshole’s in congress and the senate who never spent a day in the military to just shut the hell up about military matters, but it just doesn’t work that way, unfortunatley for all of us
May 12th, 2006 at 4:29 pm
Kat-Missouri,
Please spare me your ignorance, first find accurate dates for your what you’re talking about(Sadat was killed in 1981 not the late eighties, and not “because of the peace with Israel” myth ignoramos folks like you believe), also the late eighties was one of the most dire economic times in egypt not growth as you made up, and the mb were still having the same steady rise in popularity they’ve been having ever since Sadat released them from jails and propped them to counter the influence of the leftists (not losing popularity as you’ve stated), also as nefarious as they are, not a single act of violence was attributed to the mb since the mid sixties when nasser crushed them (know your history,facts, dates and the difference between the mb and the other groups before you fabricate stuff girl, because believe it or not, sometimes people who have some knowledge about egypt do read this blog ).
May 12th, 2006 at 10:05 pm
> sometimes people who have some knowledge about egypt do read this blog …
May 13th, 2006 at 7:45 am
[...] Sandmonkey has some pictures taken firsthand of who should be considered a enemy: [...]
May 13th, 2006 at 7:06 pm
The Muslim Brotherhood will take power in Egypt. Today, tomorrow, next year or 5 years its gonna happen and Egypt will become a regional superpower. You can beat all you like. Keep on beating them, it only increases their following and strength, We’re coming to get you - Mouuwahahah.
May 13th, 2006 at 9:20 pm
We’re coming to get you - Mouuwahahah.
Not if we come get you first - Mouuwahahah.
Oh, wait. That wouldn’t even be funny, would it? Then you’d be bitching and moaning about the US and it’s doctrine of pre-emption, and complaining about how much America fucked up your life, eh?
May 13th, 2006 at 10:02 pm
It seems to me that there is a lot of resentment and hostility expressed by people in the ME towards their governments. It also seems that there are two opposing points of view for how to cure this state of affairs. You have Islamists who say that the corrupt and immoral governments are the result of them being secular, and you have Democratizers who say the reason that the government is corrupt is because the public does not have a say in who is in government.
The result of any election, however, provided the majority of people are ultra-religious would be to instate a democratically elected theocracy. Unfortunately, the Islamists would come out on top even if there were a democratic election–at least that is the way I perceive to be the case. Case in point–Iraq. A secular dictatorship was deposed by the West, and was replaced by a democracy…the net effect? Each of the religious/ethnic factions sought to implace their own representatives–thereby removing a secular form of government and replacing it with a democratically elected theocracy.
Note that Afghanistan and Iraq both do not perceive that men and women are truly equal. In the same way the two countries do not believe in true freedom of religion or that religions are equal in society. In effect, there exists a system that condones and actually supports one group have power over others (oppression). Whether or not Islam is the source of this truly needs to be asked and answered. The American Declaration of Independence stated that “all men are created equal.” The logical extension of that statement is that there is no “right” to rule or to impose will upon others. The proposition is based also on the feeling that there is a social contract–that the government must best represent the desires of the public.
But the US is not a democracy. The primary fault of democracy is that it allows the majority to impose its will on the minority. Therefore the only way that true benevolency in government can be sustained and that good will be expressed among the populous is for there to be a mutual understanding of what the boundaries of human interaction truly are. Basically, if all people are equal, then the rights of people end when they infringe on the rights of others. Additionally, those people must understand and acknowledge what rights are God given to all people. The Ten Commandments are the ultimate source of this morality. More specifically, those Commandments which describe how mankind is supposed to interact is what the rule of law attempts to promote. Those rights are summed up by enlightenment philosophers and are found in the American Declaration of Independence–the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Note that as long as there are people who impose their will on others, there will also be the victims, or those who have their rights infringed upon. I personally find it reprehensible that the Jews, who no doubt thought it aweful that they were enslaved, did not recognize that enslavery is wrong. The same goes for Islam. Additionally, I find it also telling that Muslims find it wrong for any other religion to dominate over Islam, but that there is no reciprocity–that they don’t find it equally wrong for Islam to dominate over other religions. In fact, there is no right for anyone to impose their will upon others. Does anyone think that God picks those who dominate over others? Isn’t it more correct to suppose that those people strived for power because of their lust and thirst for domination over others? There is no accountability in such a scenario unless the population can vote that person out of power. And if such an option does not exist, it is up to the entire population to foist that oppressive rule out of power.
However, there must also be acknowledged the inherent rights that ALL people have and that those rights are granted by God for all mankind.
May 26th, 2006 at 7:58 am
[...] At any rate, I don’t see why we, the United States, can’t just admit that, despite some contributions to educational, agricultural, economic, and health-related development in Egypt over the years, we understand at the very least that Mubarak himself is an international embarassment, but that we are stuck with him because of the Camp David agreement and other regional issues, and we do wish the guy would retire already. [...]
June 20th, 2006 at 10:56 pm
[...] There is a lot of more information on El-Fatah's arrest on Egyptian blogs. Much more than I was able to find through traditional media. Sabbah and SandMonkey have good content on what's been happening in Cairo the past few weeks. Sandmonkey, who posts anonomously continues to run his blog with regular updates on the protests. There are also&n