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I promised you a while back to show you the video taken inside an egyptian police station showing our police's interrogation techniques. I was hesitant to do this, but after what happend to Abeer , I figure it's time I showed it to you. Here it is.
Try to control your disgust!
May 17th, 2006 at 11:51 am
You should show this, and all other footage like it. Let everyone see wat they do, so they can’t hide behind high walls.
On anothet note, I hope your dad is doing ok.
May 17th, 2006 at 12:08 pm
That’s Islam. Peace and compassion.
May 17th, 2006 at 12:12 pm
Dear Sandmonkey
If this is true, it’s horrible and the police agent beating the woman should be kicked out of the police corps and prosecuted, together with his superior officers who condoned this type of behavior.
However - it begs a few questions as well: is there any proof that this video is authentic? Where and how has it been recorded? (I mean - I’ve never seen an Egyptian police station, and to me, the room could just as well have been a living room).
Has the police agent been charged? Has a complaint been submitted?
I’m not familiar with the legal system in Egypt, and as far as interrogations and interrogation techniques go, I’ve no clue as to what your criminal law provides for, but Egypt is - at least in name - a secular democracy - so one would presume what happens in the video to be illegal..
Surely, there must be something that can be done about this?
A confused (and still shocked) European..
(further to K from Oslo - best wishes for your dad, and keep safe yourself)
May 17th, 2006 at 12:17 pm
Ulysses,
this was passed on to me from someone who works in the police and didn’t know about this blog. He got it from one of his friends at state secuirty. If you look at the other videos in the previous post I linked to, you will see that this is a normal thing for the egyptian police to do. They like to videotape their abuses now. It’s a form of entertainment.
There won;t be any charges even if complaints get submitted, cause that’s just the way it is over here. To do what this guy does is illegal, but if it is the upholders of the law who are breaking the law with the support and sanction of those in power, well, what is it exactly that the regular person is supposed to do?
Do you know?
May 17th, 2006 at 12:20 pm
Aw, and to Sean Shalor - I don’t see what this has to do with Islam - most Muslims I know - I don’t mean to generalize, just personal experience talking - tend to be a bit protective towards women.. (and some of those I know may be a bit too protective from time to time, perhaps) - I don’t think beating up women is promoted by Islam.
However, I do think you’re a bit of a biggot.
May 17th, 2006 at 12:29 pm
[...] Here is just one example of what happens in our police stations. My wild guess says that the 2 girls were prostitutes and not political activists who tend to be beaten during demonstrations and not inside the stations. Of course it doesn't really matter who they were. (h/t The Sandmonkey) Posted by BP at 12:29 pm [...]
May 17th, 2006 at 12:32 pm
Ulysses Says:
However, I do think you’re a bit of a biggot.
Egypt’s Prof. Dr. Mahmoud Hamdy Zakzouk, Minister of Al Awqaf
Chairman of The Supreme Council for Islamic Affairs Says:
This guardianship and greater financial responsibility is given to men requires that they provide women with not only monetary support but also physical protection and kind and respectful treatment.
The Muslim woman was given a role duties and rights 1400 years ago that most women do not enjoy today even in the west. These are from God and are designed to keep balance in society; what may seem unjust or missing in one place is compensated for or explained in another place. Islam is a complete way of life.
He will obviously be well aware of (the commonplaces) what is happening
in his country under his present stewardship.
If you think that I am a bigot, then I think you are blind, foolish and outrageously indulgent of this wicked, brutal ideology.
May 17th, 2006 at 12:34 pm
This is disgusting - I don’t care where it’s taking place and in what context, I don’t care if it’s a video of this woman’s brother beating her coz she didn’t do his laundry, or if it really is the Egyptian police authorities beating a prisoner - regardless, this cannot be condoned, this is disgusting, this is abuse and stripping of human rights of the lowest kind, and I can easily beleive this woman would get raped or abused even further.
However, Sean Shalor, I absolutely do not see how your sarcastic comment can be at all well-founded. That’s the reaction of a lazy, ignorant, backward thinking idiot. So there are no atrocities in Christianity or Judaism? Athiests are perfect? This was packaged as a message of Islam? What the fuck do you mean? Or are you that bored?
This is a video of a woman being beat up by the authorities of a country run by a dictator, a country where corruption and injustice is the norm. I’d like to see these men persecuted for what they are doing, have them use Islam as their excuse, and then get away with THAT. Then we can talk.
I’m so sick of all this shit.
May 17th, 2006 at 12:34 pm
my god this is truly unbelievable
where is the fucking law in this country , the law i learn about every single day , that gets crammed down my throat . it makes me sick . violently so
May 17th, 2006 at 12:37 pm
Sandmonkey,
I don’t doubt the Egyptian police is capable of such behavior (so is the European police btw - abuse of power happens everywhere and is in my opinion not determined by religion or ethnicity) - I’ve seen the pictures of how they dealt with the pro-Judge demonstrations..
Just FYI - I know this may not be useful..
In my country, you ‘d have different legal options (as distinguished from the non-legal options of going to the press or putting pressure in other ways, which may obviously be very useful too - on a side note, thumbs up for your efforts in this regard).
First - there’s a parliamentary committee specifically competent for police abuse - being parliamentary, it is dependent on the legislative and not the executive branch.
It independently investigates into police abuse, and is competent to hear individual complaints about police misbehavior and sanction it.
Second, there are two different ways of reporting crimes.
1/ you go to the police and ask them to take your statement (this would in your case be useless I suppose) - the police decides whether or not to investigate and transfers, if enough indications that a crime has been committed exist, the file to an “investigating judge”
2/ you file a formal complaint and indicate you’ve suffered from the crime. In this case, an investigating judge (who is a part of the legislative branch - so once more there’s a separation with the executive) is automatically appointed to investigate the charges.
What i was wondering about was whether or not there existed such a possibility - to have a criminal investigation carried out by an independent member of the judiciary..
As the main reason for the troubles at the time is that the judges refused to participate in supporting probable election fraud - you’d assume they have some sort of power..
In conclusion - I think no democracy can function without a proper separation of the executive, legislative and judiciary branch..
Ulysses
May 17th, 2006 at 12:38 pm
And the Big Pharaoh says:
My wild guess says that the 2 girls were prostitutes …
So that’s ok is it ???
As usual, it’s the woman’s fault !!!
Jeeeeez - and I’m bigoted !!!!
May 17th, 2006 at 12:43 pm
Ulysses,
I know that the TV in the movie may lead to you think that this is a living room.
But It’s very common in egypt to have TVs in any principle offices. As they has nothing to do till they get orders. Police officers has no system to monitor they activities. Simply they do what they want.
Sean Shalor,
This is not islam. We are here talking about persons who have no rules to keep. They have no human feelings. They feel happy when they insult others.
They have committed crimes and murders and have been convected in courts.
And then a presidential forgiveness order is their gift. So they return back to work to continue their crimes.
I know this is hard to imagine but this is Egypt in this moment.
Dear Sandmonkey,
Thank you.
All the world,
Help Us
May 17th, 2006 at 12:45 pm
Hal Says:
That’s the reaction of a lazy, ignorant, backward thinking idiot.
Thankyou for your balanced and informed view.
I do have some experience of summary justice in Islamic countries and believe me this is TYPICAL. It is disgusting and TYPICAL. Show me an Islamic country where this kind of thing is not everyday experience and I will accept your insulting mantle. Until then I will continue to condemn this kind of wickedness which is being carried out with the authority of senior Islamic figures.
May 17th, 2006 at 12:55 pm
Ok, and once more to Sean Shalor - then I’ll put this part of the discussion to bed.
We both see the same video of a woman being beaten up.
My reaction: This is horrible - Police abuse? - what can be done?
Your reaction: Islam, love and compassion (which to me sounds strikingly similar to: it’s the Joooz! but with a hint of sarcasm. Correct me if I misunderstood your comment.)
By saying that, you (1) unnecessarily and unjustifiedly insult every muslim (2) and this is worse, indirectly lift the blame from the individual policeman - he could blame it on Islam too…
What’s even more astonishing, to me at least, is that you elaborate your answer by quoting a statement to the effect that men are required ‘to provide women with not only monetary support but also physical protection and kind and respectful treatment’ - regardless of whether or not I agree with the rest of what the man says - what strange reasoning is it you adopted to arrive at the conclusion that beating up women is caused/condoned/promoted by islam?
May 17th, 2006 at 1:09 pm
Until Islam or its teachers and adherents accept the cruelties and inequities that are built in to its credo - and do something about that - these (universal) practices will continue.
Until Islam or its teachers and adherents stop saying “Don’t Christians/ atheists or w.h.y. do these kinds of things” they have no reason to stop.
Until Islam or its teachers and adherents stop saying that everything within their ambit is the fault of somebody else (Jews, Americans etc) or that such and such a man is a dictator, not a good Moslem, a fundamentalist - they are excused.
These things are not the will of God, nor are they somebody elses’ responsibilty.
We are all imperfect, we have to fix our own problems - Moslems included.
If Islam is always exempted from blame (even in an Islamic country), then it’s not actually doing anything or exercising any influence.
May 17th, 2006 at 1:14 pm
Sean, this has nothing to do with Islam, trust you me. I highly doubt that those men and their leaders believe in any kind of god. This is human curelty, plain and simple!
May 17th, 2006 at 1:34 pm
Sandmonkey
It is classical to make the lofty suggestion, when a single soul should dare to criticise an entire philosophy … that he must be wrong … so many years, so many scholars etc. In the thirties, people were mocked, reviled and occasionally imprisoned for suggesting that Nazi-ism and Hitler (Saviours of Europe) could be malign. More recently, McCarthy in the USofA reran the Salem witch-hunts to general applause. In both those deplorable episodes, huge public support was garnered from well-meaning “normal” people who sincerely felt that they were helping society along. The belief in ones own cause on the basis of numbers, is no guarantee of virtue.
I’m sorry to disagree with you, but I believe that Islam DOES supply the weapons of oppression to these and to many other people. Do you really think that a “belief in God” prevents acts of cruelty - no of course you don’t. You know as well as I do that many/most of the dreaful acts of terrorism are committed by devout folks who often own a valid (if misguided) social conscience. Belief in God is just words - it doesn’t change the nature of the man. Hitler was a believer, and so was McCarthy.
May 17th, 2006 at 2:32 pm
I know I said I would shut up about this one, really because comments posted here should be about the poor woman rather than about the nature of Islam, and I apologise to anyone who counted on me to stick to my promise - but gee, Sean Shalor, you sound like an intelligent person, why are you turning this thing around like this? Criminal law deals with individual responsability - you stick it to the offender, not to his relatives, not to his employer, not to his fellow believers/disbelievers, not to his religion. I’m as much against totalitarian government as you are, I’m as much against nazi’s as any man, and I don’t like terrorists either, and in my book, that also implies you do not condemn a billion muslims, or their religion, for the acts of individuals who commit atrocities. The asshole in the video was as far as you or I know not beating up the woman in the name of Islam, or because ‘Islam’ told him so, and if even if he did, he did not represent Islam or its followers. At least, that’s what I gather from my personal Muslim friends and the Muslim contributors to this blog whose express statements make it clear to me they do not consider the fucker representative for them. By the way, Islam - as opposed to the Roman Catholicism I adhere to for instance - is not the homogenous monolith you appear to assume it is, and does not have a single voice, and as such, I don’t think anybody is able to claim to speak for Islam. Nor can you hold ‘Islam’ responsible for actions of individuals who are or claim to be its followers. You understand? If I commit a crime in the name of tribal animalism tomorrow, I wouldn’t expect anyone to hold tribal animalism accountable for anything I did either. If any individual commits crimes, invoking a set of beliefs (which this guy did not), regardless of the nature or worthiness of such beliefs, I would still expect them to be judged on the crimes they committed rather than have the beliefs they adhere to judged, or rather than have the ethnicity/religion they belong to condemned (in your view, on a vague and abstract notion such as failing to intervene or condemn the sort of behavior in strong enough language). By the way, now that you’ve mentioned him, let’s talk a little bit about Hitler - wasn’t he the one who blamed Judaism for everything that went wrong - what’s the difference with blaming Islam for everything that goes wrong? Look man, I don’t question your right as a ’single soul’ to question Islam, as a religion, as a set of ideas and beliefs, as a ‘philosophy’ if you so will it, and I think it’s ok for individuals to challenge entire sets of beliefs, regardless of the amount of believers. I’m with you on that one. It’s just that I think you’re wrong, and I also think that’s not really what you’re doing - challenging Islam. At least, I’m not reading a thought-provoking, stimulating intellectual argument in your posts that could bring any Muslim to question his ideas and beliefs. You’re just blaming it - and basically without even the slightest bit of substantial argumentation.
Ulysses.
May 17th, 2006 at 2:56 pm
Ulysses
“I’m not reading a thought-provoking, stimulating intellectual argument in your posts
I responded briefly, in terms which I felt appropriate, to the various brickbats aimed in my direction - whilst hopefully avoiding some of the dumber more insulting stuff which is sadly often standard fodder here.
You’re just blaming it - and basically without even the slightest bit of substantial argumentation.
I have charged unequivocally, that their ethic is flawed - with examples.
you do not condemn a billion muslims, or their religion, for the acts of individuals who commit atrocities
If they say that they believe, and their scriptures corroborate that - who am I, or you, to doubt them.
May 17th, 2006 at 3:07 pm
… could bring any (insert chosen religion) to question his ideas and beliefs
Does that ever happen ? Is it not an oxymoron ?
May 17th, 2006 at 3:44 pm
I’ll have to side with Ulysses on this.
In the north-of-Dallas region where I work, there is an enormous population of Middle Eastern and Pakistani immigrants. One of the largest in the nation, I suspect. And they’re all normal people, just trying to make a living so they can send their kids to good schools. They show respect as long as they are shown respect — they’re just citizens like everybody else.
I mean, the rest of the world can be burning, but I can go down for some chicken Tikka, and be greated with smiles and shown my favorite table. Paris may be on fire, but we’re cool.
May 17th, 2006 at 3:46 pm
Ulysses
It is clear from some of your assertions such as:
Islam … is not the homogenous monolith you appear to assume it is, and does not have a single voice, and as such, I don’t think anybody is able to claim to speak for Islam. that you are not familiar with the references I made to Egypt’s Supreme Council for Islamic Affairs website:
www islamic-council org/ (put a dot in the space)
You will find very detailed stuff which is as close to constitutional prescriptions as you can get. I think that is an adequate basis for an opinion, even if you don’t like it. It is necessary of course to distinguish between “Islam” and nascent Egytian “government” processes - but the rules are islamic and the country’s executive claims their implementation. I am quite sure that this limits the extent to which you can validly claim exemption for Islam as a significant force. In principle, the same applies to any other religious belief when so extensively entwined in the host society - Islam is generally more pervasive because of the extent to which other beliefs (or disbeliefs) are restricted.
I think it would be false to assume that the Egyptian administration is unaware of the heavy hand being applied by the way.
May 17th, 2006 at 3:51 pm
to put it succinctly : a lot of shit has happened in the name of many religions throughout history . period . and you can find lots of misogyny ,misery and justifications for all sorts of immorality in ANY religon but this is dependent on whoever interprets it . so do not condemn the whole lot of us simply because some people interpret religon to their advantage when there is much in the essense of islam that is good and humane
May 17th, 2006 at 3:54 pm
Gadfly
just trying to make a living so they can send their kids to good schools. They show respect as long as they are shown respect — they’re just citizens like everybody else.
But that was my very point … “huge public support was garnered from well-meaning “normal” people who sincerely felt that they were helping society along. ”
This is the VERY issue - the ideology - not the guys with whom you share the chicken Tikka. That’s why it’s such a difficult and dangerous business !!
May 17th, 2006 at 3:58 pm
Absolutly disgusting, and revolting. I stand for a lot of things but the physical abuse of women is a BIG no,no, for me. As far as the Big Pharoh stating that this women is a “Prostitute” I dont know how you can possibly say that. Is every women a Prostitute until proven innocent? Why does one asume she is a Prostitute? And even if she was a “prostitute” thats no reason for this pig to act in the manner which he has acted. Once again very, very disgusting, I am glad i am not in Egypt becase if I was I would torch a police station in the state of Anger I am in right now.
May 17th, 2006 at 3:59 pm
hebe Says:
do not condemn the whole lot of us simply because some people interpret religon …
Please don’t accuse me of “condemning the whole lot of us”. If you would take the trouble to read the posts you would see that that was not the case. You may also find that “inter[retation” is not a notion that Islamic scholars welcome.
May 17th, 2006 at 4:07 pm
Sean Shalor their is no such thing as interpratation in Islam. The Truth is right their for all to see and what that man did on that tape was a grave violation of Shriah.
May 17th, 2006 at 4:09 pm
I am an Muslim and an Imazigan. And we have very low Domestic abuse rates in our Villages. I would blame Culture not religion.
May 17th, 2006 at 4:12 pm
Angry!!!!!!!!!!!!Libyan”American” Says:
Sean Shalor their is no such thing as interpratation in Islam.
I know - that’s why I said that it “is not a notion that Islamic scholars welcome”.
“I would torch a police station i” I can identify with that.
May 17th, 2006 at 4:23 pm
“is not a notion that Islamic scholars welcome” Which islamic Scholars do you speak of? It seems that the muslim Brotherhood is hell bent on overthrowing this regime, you cant possibly tell me thatv they support this?
May 17th, 2006 at 4:24 pm
Whoever suppports this is an Infidel Sean Shalor.
May 17th, 2006 at 4:27 pm
Angry!!!!!!!!!!!!Libyan”American” Says:
Which islamic Scholars do you speak of?
Maybe you misunderstood my post.
hebe said:
… simply because some people interpret religon to their advantage
My reply to hebe was that for Islam there is no interpretation.
That’s all !
May 17th, 2006 at 4:44 pm
Riddle me this:
What do you call a Muslim who doesn’t condone woman-beating; no, downright condemns it?
May 17th, 2006 at 5:32 pm
“THE LONE AND LEVEL SANDS STRETCH FAR AWAY…”
A 19th century photograph of Pompey’s Pillar in Alexandria, by the Frenchman Félix Bonfils. More of his pictures here. [Via The Arabist] Elsewhere, another Middle East blog, Tabsir, ponders a much less inspiring image of modern Egypt - a plainclothes
May 17th, 2006 at 5:47 pm
I think this is dictatorship rather than Islam. Stalin’s and Mao’s police were just as bad. No doubt the North Korean police still are.
The question is whether Islam, with its concept of the unified state and religion, tends to create dictatorships, or whether the problem is backwardness and illiteracy. Stamping out police violence and corruption may demand a large and prosperous middle class to set moral standards. The rich don’t need moral standards and the poor can’t afford them.
May 17th, 2006 at 5:55 pm
I just watched it. That’s pretty disturbing. Like I said to BP, I doubt this is the tip of the iceberg in things that they do inside.
May 17th, 2006 at 6:22 pm
Sean Shalor, as it is defintely your right to say whatever the hell you want, I also have the right to tell you to suck my big fat cock you fucked up stupid ignorant filthy son of a pig. We are all pissed here at the abuse this poor woman is receiving from that stupid son of a bitch and you resort to blaming Islam straight away??! You are brainwashed because you must have been listening to some serious anti-Islam propaganda or a so-called “Muslim” chauvinist pig preaching about women in Islam. It’s not religion, culture or whatever that should be blamed… It’s simply peoples’ mentality and this police officers mentality is worse than that of a squashed cockroach. Sandmonkey thank you for being so brave and posting this. I hope your father is recovering well. Bro the same shyte happens in Sudan. Those officers are so bored and have nothing to do better than seeking excitement from this sick shit. Fucking assholes!
I’ve mentioned before in my previous post http://sudanesethinker.blogspot.com/2006/04/do-you-want-to-start-clapping.html
(it is us humans that are flawed. We are flawed because we have the gift of choice and sometimes get the temptation to make the wrong decisions. Those wrong decisions are not a result of religious commandments. Never attribute the wrong and negative actions back to the religion of the “practicer”, for every negative action is a sin, and a sin in any religion is the result of not adhering to that religion itself.)
That fuckface won’t even smell heaven if that’s what you think Sean Shalor…
May 17th, 2006 at 6:33 pm
Ok, so I think we all agree that this is horrific. Anyone witnessing this with a heart and soul is angered and disgusted. But let’s not just be disgusted and tut tut and go on about our affairs –what can we do to change things? Getting the information out that such abuses happen and regularly is one of the first steps (good job SM! for starting the ball rolling). Can we put our heads together and come up with some constructive ideas for steps 2 and 3 and beyond to get this kind of abuse eradicated?
Let’s talk and come up with some plans of action!
May 17th, 2006 at 6:46 pm
find out who the head of the egyptian police is and start a media campaign about him?? Maybe a picture of him puffing a cigar and drinking some wine while a police officer smacks a woman nearby… That would put pressure on him I guess. Would it SM?
However we must be sure that we don’t let the actions of a few screwed up officers ruin the image of the sincere ones. It’s the minority of the force that are screwed up and not the majority right SM? Please say yes!
I hope that’s constructive =)
May 17th, 2006 at 7:04 pm
> The Sandmonkey Says:
> May 17th, 2006 at 1:14 pm
> Sean, this has nothing to do with Islam, trust you me.
How comes?
Of course it must be Islam, that backward retarded death cult!
Because - look at alternative explanations:
Imagine it had to do with a 2 billion dollar bribe from the US,
to keep up the only jewish-only disneyland and to protect the
“american way of life” - cheap gas for trailer park Joe, citizen of
the most advanced nation on earth!
If the latter were true, you - clown - would contradict yourself, so
it is ONLY a matter of Islam and thus another reason to keep the
pharao in power and your libertarian friends in prison.
You don’t want to kiss Mubaraks butt?
Then try again - and become used to it - do it for your great Fuhrer
- G. W. Bush!
And here some more pictures showing the evilness of Islam:
http://www.antiwar.com/photos/perm/capt6.jpg
http://www.antiwar.com/photos/perm/ag23.jpg
http://www.antiwar.com/photos/perm/ag25.jpg
May 17th, 2006 at 7:26 pm
Angry Libyan,
Once again very, very disgusting, I am glad i am not in Egypt becase if I was I would torch a police station in the state of Anger I am in right now.
Are you familiar with the way the Bulgarian nurses have been treated in Libya?
BTW, I have a suggestion that might make yoy less angry. Are you aware it’s possible to renounce your own citizenship? Since you are also a Libyan national as well as a US national, that would leave you only Libyan, and not Libyan/American. And since most of your vitriol seeems to be directed at the country you live in, America, you could probably drop the “angry” off your moniker as well, no?
Seems like a win/win to me. What do you think?
Sean, I can’t go along with the “it’s Islam” theory. Prisoners are treated that badly (or worse) in most of liatin america and asia, and even in many parts of europe. That’s what happens in a police state - any police state. The police do whatever the hell they want.
May 17th, 2006 at 7:34 pm
Drima aka SudaneseThinker
I think you perhaps need to do a little thinking - or perhaps read what I actually said, rather than what you want to believe I said. I understand that you enjoy flinging abuse around but actually you reveal more about yourself than any informed opinion.
You say “I’ve mentioned before in my previous post” well yes, your hysterical rants have all been “mentioned before” many times. Why not try to make a contribution rather than just being your boring offensive self.
May 17th, 2006 at 7:39 pm
I’m hardly a defender of Islam, but if that video is legit–and I’ll accept the SM’s representations that it is–then it is something that happens in authoritarian regimes everywhere. Do you think that things are any better in, say, Cuba? How about China? North Korea?
Evil is evil, no matter what the motivating force is………………
May 17th, 2006 at 7:48 pm
Don Cox, - Yes, Stalin’s and Mao’s police were just as bad , but do you know why? Because they were following their ideology in which they believed is the right one.
May 17th, 2006 at 8:01 pm
Craig , if the government allows those kind of “activities” or maybe even supports them , in the name of “whatever” it is ,so it can happen everywhere.
May 17th, 2006 at 8:03 pm
“find out who the head of the egyptian police is and start a media campaign about him?? Maybe a picture of him puffing a cigar and drinking some wine while a police officer smacks a woman nearby… That would put pressure on him I guess. Would it SM?”
The country with the most “freedom of the press” is almost always the most free, period. That’s why we put up with the aggravation that is found in conjunction with a free press.
When you can get this kind of abuse in the newspaper, so it can be discussed by the comman man — the abuse will taper off sharply. It will always be there. It’s here in the States, as well, but it hides in tiny pockets. And sooner or later, each is ferretted out and shut down.
May 17th, 2006 at 8:23 pm
“I think you perhaps need to do a little thinking - or perhaps read what I actually said…Why not try to make a contribution rather than just being your boring offensive self. ”
Sean, I have already done more than enough thinking so go and practice your freedom of speech as much as you want and I’ll practice mine. Just as what I typed was vulgar you must understand that what you say is extremely offensive. I was too pissed when I saw the video and then your stupid comment just pissed me off even further. The fact that I cursed and used bad language against you is sinfull and un-Islamic in itself and so were the actions of the police officer in the video. Therefore blame the evil of the individual and not the religion. Believe whatever you want but at the end of the day I pitty you because you are ignorant by bringing Islam into this specific issue. If you truly want to make a contribution you should at least change that mentality of yours.
Godfly, the truth is these things are not easy to change and will always continue happening but at least the man in the video can hopefully be punished. What about human rights organizations? Things won’t change overnight and that’s what makes it so frustrating. These people have a hellfire waiting for them even if they escape the punishment in this world.
May 17th, 2006 at 8:26 pm
Wow, SM, this is a much more interesting and less nasty discussion than I expected. Not that it’s tea time but that’s not what blogs are. Also, I am open minded to a degree that if I saw Islam as the problem in itself, I wouldn’t have trouble condemning it. But, Sean, I don’t see you outlining HOW Islam in itself is responsible for this. I get it that an imam or scholar said, in essence, women are subhumans. We don’t have that as much in the U.S. by far but it’s not unknown. It doesn’t mean that Christianity as a whole supports it. So what I’d like to ask you is that if you really feel this (and here’s probably not the right place), please show how scripturally Islam’s responsible for this. And what I’d like to ask the rest of you is, regardless of where you stand, I haven’t seen many people here in a pro-women beating place, so: What is to be done about it? What tangible course of action can we all take? The only suggestion I’ve heard is to shame the police chief. My limited experience suggests his type is not easily cowed by shame.
May 17th, 2006 at 8:29 pm
Sean Salor,
hmmmm…. what can I say. You could quote a hundred things that are wrong with Islam and many could be true. I could quote a hundred things that are wrong with (pick a religion or ideology).
Frankly, I believe every person is entitled to like or hate whatever he wants. Well if u wan’t to hate Islam and all muslims go right ahead. Knock yourself out. I hate broccoli and spinach and I believe I have the right to.
May 17th, 2006 at 8:33 pm
actually sean shalor and angry american libyan there is.
there are four schools of islamic legal and interprative thought (shariaa)
the malaki , the hanabli , the shafee and the hanafee
you see islam is not just a religon but a whole way of life .
May 17th, 2006 at 8:34 pm
Curt,
If you really wanted to discuss this, you’d have to go back and read all the references I quoted - which would be altogether too tedious. In any case, as you rightly say, this is probably not the place. The fashion here seems to be reading one post, shooting from the hip and doing a bit of logic chopping about the use of some word or other. Much more interest in trying to misunderstand than v.v.
May 17th, 2006 at 8:43 pm
i still think it had nothing to do with islam . its another ugly facet of this corrupt authoritarian regime. mind you i wont deny that that a lot things happen that lead me to question my faith . but ill repeat again all religons (except perhaps buddhism) have their share of misery . atheists claim the whole raison d’etre of most religons is misery and denial . but i’ll still cling to the good in religon . because there is much that is good
May 17th, 2006 at 9:36 pm
Just like in Algeria.
May 17th, 2006 at 9:57 pm
The Islam that I see practiced is very much done so in a way that is compatible with modern Western civilization. For the most part, nobody brings a prayer carpet to the office. Just like Christians don’t say grace before eating in the office lunch room. It does not mean that they are not religious, it just means that they have learned to keep their prayers between themselves and their God, without disturbing or creating a spectacle for everybody else. When they get to their own homes and are not being paid for their time, then I’m sure they do things more traditionally, just as do the Christians, Jews, Shintoists, Buddhists, etc. etc.
Still, I drive by mosques with shiny gold minarettes. Everyone accepts Islam as one of the common religions of this country. At least on the surface, there appears to be no conflict.
May 17th, 2006 at 10:18 pm
This video should not shake us much.
Let’s see: it is true it can be taped anywhere and not in a police station. Besides: IT CONTAINS THE MINIMUM POLICE AUTHORITIES, ESPECIALLY STATE SECURITY DOES TO BOTH MEN AND WOMEN.
come on guys: it is just a beating with a plastic hose or stick or whatever, the woman will be ok in a couple of days, THEY DO NOT REALLY MEAN TO HARM HER, IT IS A JOKE COMPARED TO WHAT THEY DO. Reports by Egyptian and Internation human rights - including Amnesty international- and antitorture organizations report much much horrifying techniques: electrocuting, whipping on bare skin, leeching, rape, burning with cigarettes and other hot objects and many more. Tens of deaths every year in police stations under torture. And we do not need vidoes to prove it. I guess hundreds of reports by different organizations with photoes and testimonies of victims are more than enough. Do not let the fact that you SAW THAT ON THE VIDEO blind you that the truth is much much worse. And we all as Egyptians are responsible. We did not say no, and we did not say it loud enough.
May 17th, 2006 at 10:39 pm
> Do you think that things are any better in, say, Cuba? How about China? North Korea?
Noooo. But it’s the Islam, stupid:
http://www.antiwar.com/photos/perm/capt6.jpg
http://www.antiwar.com/photos/perm/ag23.jpg
http://www.antiwar.com/photos/perm/ag25.jpg
May 17th, 2006 at 11:11 pm
In repsone to Yael’s comment, you want to change things, I hate to say it but we need more videos like this over a wider array of dates. We need stuff like this from the 90s all the way to last week. We need to prove this is systematic. Then, this is all up to you man, if you want send it to all the MSM outlets and bombard them to show over and over again. Find out who the head of police is. Send letters asking why this is state policy, etc etc… You can see where I’m going with this I think…
May 17th, 2006 at 11:33 pm
How do we know this video is authentic?
May 18th, 2006 at 12:39 am
looks like Abu Ghraib prison pretty much or should I say the Israeli prisons?!
May 18th, 2006 at 1:20 am
Israeli prison? Abu Gharib? Give me a break. It is a problem with a male dominated culture. And maybe Egyptian police can beat a woman the same way muslim parents (ie. Palestinians, Pakistanis ) can have their sons murder their daughters who choose to date or refuse an arranged marriage. I have never heard of Christians or Jews having their daughters murdered for disobeying their parents. So yeah, I basically don’t think Sean is so wrong. There is a problem with misogyny in Islam.
May 18th, 2006 at 2:12 am
I’d like to preface my comments by saying that what takes place in the video is highly endemic to ANY police state but no less disturbing. The fact that Islam got brought into the converstion shouldn’t surprise anyone that reads this blog either.
Sean Shalor has gotten beat up pretty bad and the muslims in here may not care for me too much either because I happen to agree with him. What you need to understand, and I can only speak for myself, is that I hate myself for believing what I do about Islam. I don’t want to think this way but those who speak the loudest in the name of Islam want to kill me, my family and anyone else who is non-muslim. I find it both amusing and sad that intelligent, well informed people of the Islamic faith forget that many if not most Americans got thier first taste of Islam on 9-11. You forget that we saw the “dancing in the streets” that day all over the ME with the crowds chanting “Allah Akhbar” and “death to the west”. And yet you expect us to look past ALL of that to see the “true Islam” when virtually NO ONE with real authority in the Islamic community condemned the attacks. Some individuals did condemn them but were virtually muted out by the images and words of Mohammed Atta, Ayman al-Zawahiri, Usama bin-Laden and more recently by the likes of Hamas and Mahmood Ahmadinajad who wants to bring about the “end of history”.
This is why I’m so grateful for The Sandmonkey’s blog and all the others from his part of the world. It gives those of us who want one a different perspective. Just try to remember where our perspective began and when you direct your anger towards us (non-muslims) rather than those who you say has perverted Islam and gave us these beliefs it just makes us wonder sometimes…
May 18th, 2006 at 2:33 am
Hey there, Twosret
looks like Abu Ghraib prison pretty much
Actually, the Abu Ghraib abuses were much worse than what I saw in that video. But, the Abu Ghraib perps are in prison themselves, now. What are the odds that man in this video will be prosecuted?
or should I say the Israeli prisons?!
Ok, if you don’t have any documentary evidence of this claim, I think you’re out of line for making it. You aren’t helping the cause of Egyptians by saying the Israelis are “just as bad.” In fact, that can serve as a jsutification for Egyptian police abuse. Why should they treat anybody better than the Israelis do, right?
And, without evidence, you aren’t helping the Palestinians either. And please don’t give me third hand “accounts” of what Israelis did. I learned a long time ago that sometimes people tell lies. I’m thinking more along the lines of actual documentation.
May 18th, 2006 at 4:23 am
Men are animals, under the influance of Islam they become brutish, cruel animals.
Here is a few insights into Women and Islam
Papa Ray
May 18th, 2006 at 6:25 am
eee, more photos showing the evilness of Islam:
http://www.ogrish.com/archives/2005/october/ogrish-dot-com-three_teenagers_beheaded_in_indonesia1.jpg
http://www.ogrish.com/archives/2005/october/ogrish-dot-com-three_teenagers_beheaded_in_indonesia2.jpg
http://www.ogrish.com/archives/2005/november/ogrish-dot-com-india_bomb_explosion_victim3.jpg
May 18th, 2006 at 6:30 am
Hebe, why except Buddhism?
“Violent mobs have carried out at least 160 attacks on churches or Christian institutions since 2002, when Buddhist monks first launched their campaign to introduce anti-conversion legislation…..”
http://dailynews.mybiblebase.com/go.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.worthynews.com%2Fchristian%2Fthree-churches-attacked-in-sri-lanka%2F
May 18th, 2006 at 6:33 am
Besides videos, there is a lot of information on police torturing people - men and women - over a period of many years, which was published as a yearly report by the Association for the Protection of the Rights of Prisoners which used to be led by Mohamed Zarea (who was kept under house arrest for the past couple of years and has sicne passed the headship of the organiation on to someone else, who I think is a relative same last name). They sent it to me every year for several years because I had done a project for NGOs and got on their mailing list. The documentation is out there. Maybe it is nto as galvanizing to read about the torture as it is to see the videos, but it is there.
Police states exist in Muslim majority countries and in non-Muslim majority countries. Police do not beat up on people because of their religion. I have never heard a policeman in Egypt mention religion as a factor in the way he behaves or use any religious justification for anything he does. The idea is completely ludicrous. Also what about police who are Copts (and there are some) who behave exactly the same as the Muslim ones? Police brutality is part of the regular setup of an authoritarian state. And authoritarian states are not about ideology necessarily (and the Mubarak state is certainly not abotu ideology - religious or other). Just keeping power through force. That’s it.
May 18th, 2006 at 6:53 am
Matt is right, more evidence will definitely be needed but I don’t think it has to be evidence going so far back. I think if a good amount of evidence (including pictures of injuries to those who have been released, statements from Journaslists such as Abeer who were victims of abuse themselves, and so forth) a compelling argument and rallying cry can be made. The difficulty is getting those videos and pictures and the fear-factor of speaking up for those who have already suffered abuse. I’m wondering about putting up a website (in arabic) where people could (anonymously if need be) send in evidence?
May 18th, 2006 at 8:09 am
61 jeff_boeing Said:
“Sean Shalor has gotten beat up pretty bad”
Thankyou for your concern, but no problem. Abuse often conceals recognition of an unwelcome truth. And in any case, could I have wished for a better illustration ?
It is almost comical …
If I had said that American social mores have been strongly influenced for good and ill by the “Protestant Work Ethic”, although the founding fathers are now long gone … I do not imagine that the John Birch Society would have been baying for blood.
If I say that Islamic social mores have been strongly influenced by a morbid fear of women and an obsession with vengeance, although the originating tribes are now long gone … Presto, “SudaneseThinker” and “RamblingHal” et al are in a raging froth about it.
But the fact remains - if your credo contains the seeds, the plant can flourish. It is not a matter of individual belief, it is a matter of social context. Case by case arguments are irrelevant. It is entirely right that there should be concern for the victim in this thread - and imperative that the contributing climate is recognised.
Some burn embassies - some build them.
May 18th, 2006 at 9:44 am
The video link is banned by Qtel. Hmmm
May 18th, 2006 at 10:49 am
Qatar Cat Says:
The video link is banned by Qtel. Hmmm
Surprise me.
Waleed Al Sayed, QCV Manager said “I would like to reaffirm Qtel’s commitment to family viewing. We are dedicated to providing our viewers with safe and suitable viewing and therefore we invest heavily in censorship and protection,” he added.”
They explained live audio-video chat is also offered by certain websites that promote promiscuity.
Khalil Ebrahim Al Emadi, Executive Director, Wireline Services at Qtel, revealed that the company had drawn a long list of shops and retail outlets such as restaurants who were functioning as unlicensed cyber cafes to offer long distance calls on the IP and were working with local police to conduct raids on them.
May 18th, 2006 at 11:05 am
Sean Shalor your comment was offensive and sarcastic. Now even though jeff_boeing did agree with you, I’m not offended or angry at him by any means whatsoever for the simple reason that he put his argument constructively.
jeff_boeing I can defintely understand why you would think what you think of Islam and I don’t blame you dude. However Sean Shalor, your argument about the policeman’s actions being based on Islam are just plain stupid and are not even related to this topic. This is about police cruelty plain and simple. It happens everywhere were the law enforcers are above the law.
May 18th, 2006 at 11:12 am
Drima aka SudaneseThinker Says:
“your argument about the policeman’s actions being based on Islam are just plain stupid and are not even related to this topic.”
Those are YOUR WORDS - not mine.
Which part of this do you not understand ?
It is not a matter of individual belief, it is a matter of social context. Case by case arguments are irrelevant. It is entirely right that there should be concern for the victim in this thread - and imperative that the contributing climate is recognised.
May 18th, 2006 at 11:21 am
I just got done reading through all the posts since my “entry” yesterday. Some interesting comments, along with the usual readers posting the usual comments (eg. Eee screaming figuratively about those evil JJJJJJJJJJJOOOOOOOOOOOZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!!!!!, etc.). I still stand by what I originally said. What we saw in that video clip, if it is legitimate, is emblematic of what goes on in any authoritarian police state. Islam has nothing to do with it.
We all need to keep the SM in our thoughts and prayers. They may be coming for him next…………..
May 18th, 2006 at 11:31 am
BornIn1965 Says:
?
” … any authoritarian police state. Islam has nothing to do with it.”
Perish the thought.
How could you mention those two things in the same breath
May 18th, 2006 at 11:39 am
Are you really trying to miss the point?
Surely you must know there are tons of authoritarian police states that are not majority Muslim countries?
And there are some Muslim countries that are not authoritarian police states? (Turkey ring a bell?)
I mean, come on here. You are not being logical at all and you are not being helpful in using this horrible episode to go after an entire religion. If you don’t like the religion there are lots of better fora in which to attack it. This is getting silly.
You keep using the words “social context.” Egypt has had a secular and authoritarian government for years. It has not always had its current fad of ultra-pious following of Islam. When it was a more secular society, police brutality was NOT less (latter days of Nasser, e.g.). The society gets more religious and less religious - the authoritarian police nature of the government stays the same.
May 18th, 2006 at 11:56 am
Anna in Cairo Says:
Are you really trying to miss the point?
No - but I think perhaps you are ?
My little jest to “BornIn1965″ was just that - a jest.
If you will actually READ the things I have said about “social context” (would you prefer “national psche” or some such) you may see that I am making a point about the kind of things that affect all of us, depending upon the cultures that we just happened to be raised in. I think that like some others, you are so convinced that you are under attack that you go into combat mode right away.
I have never suggested, nor do I believe, that any culture has a monopoly on cruelty and wickedness - BUT - there are contributing background reasons for all our failings and we have to confront them. And “background” in this ssense owes nothing to recent history. Breast-beating and judicial transparency has certainly been the fashion in the west for some time and maybe that is one reason why we tend to be preoccupied with it.
This does make a change - it is not long since I was getting a dusting from the usual suspects here when I defended the case of a young (Muslim) Afghani woman in the UK on a charge of infant cruelty.
May 18th, 2006 at 12:15 pm
Sean - cool, bro. This really has nothing to do with Islam - and everything to do with tyranny. Bringing Islam into it is just as counterproductive as bringing brain cancer into it - both tend to have horrible results, but have nothing to do with the issue. Yes?
Moreover, by attacking Islam where it warrants no attack hurts the credibility of any other criticism of it. Remember Peter and the Wolf?
And as for a solution… as I have posted elsewhere, the people need to be either rich enough to think or oppressed enough not to eat in order to act. The real solution, then, should be either a drastic increase in the economic wellbeing of the average Egyptian - or a drastic increase in the oppression thereof. Since none of the posters here (I hope) are in position to oppress a population, the former option is the feasible one.
So get cracking! Start opening up businesses in Egypt and paying workers good money!
May 18th, 2006 at 12:26 pm
The Raccoon Says:
by attacking Islam where it warrants no attack hurts the credibility of any other criticism of it. Remember Peter and the Wolf?
Well - you have me there. Your first I don’t understand, your second I don’t remember - but thank you anyway, I’m sure that will be a great help.
May 18th, 2006 at 12:43 pm
I’m going to go out on a limb here. The Egyptian regime may be thuggish and immoral, but it’s not stupid. This isn’t about Islam, but it’s also not really about women, either, at least not in the obvious sense.
Last year, when the police and mukhabarat were assulting women in the Kifaya movement, I said to a friend of mine “Look how fast this goes from being a debate about the issues to a debate about protecting the ladies…” It took about one day. Then everyone was talking about how bad this regime was to women (which it is), but not about fundamental abuses of ALL its citizens.
This is basically the same thing. Whether they’re beating/sexually violating women (as with one of my friends who was molested at a protest last year) or anally raping a man with a baton or broomstick, or just plain cracking the skulls of men AND women in the streets, the regime uses what it can to express it power on the bodies of the Egyptian people.
When we allow ourselves to emotionally respond to violence against women AS WOMEN, we lose sight of the fact that this is violence against women as citizens, first and foremost. I firmly believe that the regime understands this, which is why