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I promised you a while back to show you the video taken inside an egyptian police station showing our police's interrogation techniques. I was hesitant to do this, but after what happend to Abeer , I figure it's time I showed it to you. Here it is.
Try to control your disgust!
May 17th, 2006 at 11:51 am
You should show this, and all other footage like it. Let everyone see wat they do, so they can’t hide behind high walls.
On anothet note, I hope your dad is doing ok.
May 17th, 2006 at 12:08 pm
That’s Islam. Peace and compassion.
May 17th, 2006 at 12:12 pm
Dear Sandmonkey
If this is true, it’s horrible and the police agent beating the woman should be kicked out of the police corps and prosecuted, together with his superior officers who condoned this type of behavior.
However - it begs a few questions as well: is there any proof that this video is authentic? Where and how has it been recorded? (I mean - I’ve never seen an Egyptian police station, and to me, the room could just as well have been a living room).
Has the police agent been charged? Has a complaint been submitted?
I’m not familiar with the legal system in Egypt, and as far as interrogations and interrogation techniques go, I’ve no clue as to what your criminal law provides for, but Egypt is - at least in name - a secular democracy - so one would presume what happens in the video to be illegal..
Surely, there must be something that can be done about this?
A confused (and still shocked) European..
(further to K from Oslo - best wishes for your dad, and keep safe yourself)
May 17th, 2006 at 12:17 pm
Ulysses,
this was passed on to me from someone who works in the police and didn’t know about this blog. He got it from one of his friends at state secuirty. If you look at the other videos in the previous post I linked to, you will see that this is a normal thing for the egyptian police to do. They like to videotape their abuses now. It’s a form of entertainment.
There won;t be any charges even if complaints get submitted, cause that’s just the way it is over here. To do what this guy does is illegal, but if it is the upholders of the law who are breaking the law with the support and sanction of those in power, well, what is it exactly that the regular person is supposed to do?
Do you know?
May 17th, 2006 at 12:20 pm
Aw, and to Sean Shalor - I don’t see what this has to do with Islam - most Muslims I know - I don’t mean to generalize, just personal experience talking - tend to be a bit protective towards women.. (and some of those I know may be a bit too protective from time to time, perhaps) - I don’t think beating up women is promoted by Islam.
However, I do think you’re a bit of a biggot.
May 17th, 2006 at 12:29 pm
[...] Here is just one example of what happens in our police stations. My wild guess says that the 2 girls were prostitutes and not political activists who tend to be beaten during demonstrations and not inside the stations. Of course it doesn't really matter who they were. (h/t The Sandmonkey) Posted by BP at 12:29 pm [...]
May 17th, 2006 at 12:32 pm
Ulysses Says:
However, I do think you’re a bit of a biggot.
Egypt’s Prof. Dr. Mahmoud Hamdy Zakzouk, Minister of Al Awqaf
Chairman of The Supreme Council for Islamic Affairs Says:
This guardianship and greater financial responsibility is given to men requires that they provide women with not only monetary support but also physical protection and kind and respectful treatment.
The Muslim woman was given a role duties and rights 1400 years ago that most women do not enjoy today even in the west. These are from God and are designed to keep balance in society; what may seem unjust or missing in one place is compensated for or explained in another place. Islam is a complete way of life.
He will obviously be well aware of (the commonplaces) what is happening
in his country under his present stewardship.
If you think that I am a bigot, then I think you are blind, foolish and outrageously indulgent of this wicked, brutal ideology.
May 17th, 2006 at 12:34 pm
This is disgusting - I don’t care where it’s taking place and in what context, I don’t care if it’s a video of this woman’s brother beating her coz she didn’t do his laundry, or if it really is the Egyptian police authorities beating a prisoner - regardless, this cannot be condoned, this is disgusting, this is abuse and stripping of human rights of the lowest kind, and I can easily beleive this woman would get raped or abused even further.
However, Sean Shalor, I absolutely do not see how your sarcastic comment can be at all well-founded. That’s the reaction of a lazy, ignorant, backward thinking idiot. So there are no atrocities in Christianity or Judaism? Athiests are perfect? This was packaged as a message of Islam? What the fuck do you mean? Or are you that bored?
This is a video of a woman being beat up by the authorities of a country run by a dictator, a country where corruption and injustice is the norm. I’d like to see these men persecuted for what they are doing, have them use Islam as their excuse, and then get away with THAT. Then we can talk.
I’m so sick of all this shit.
May 17th, 2006 at 12:34 pm
my god this is truly unbelievable
where is the fucking law in this country , the law i learn about every single day , that gets crammed down my throat . it makes me sick . violently so
May 17th, 2006 at 12:37 pm
Sandmonkey,
I don’t doubt the Egyptian police is capable of such behavior (so is the European police btw - abuse of power happens everywhere and is in my opinion not determined by religion or ethnicity) - I’ve seen the pictures of how they dealt with the pro-Judge demonstrations..
Just FYI - I know this may not be useful..
In my country, you ‘d have different legal options (as distinguished from the non-legal options of going to the press or putting pressure in other ways, which may obviously be very useful too - on a side note, thumbs up for your efforts in this regard).
First - there’s a parliamentary committee specifically competent for police abuse - being parliamentary, it is dependent on the legislative and not the executive branch.
It independently investigates into police abuse, and is competent to hear individual complaints about police misbehavior and sanction it.
Second, there are two different ways of reporting crimes.
1/ you go to the police and ask them to take your statement (this would in your case be useless I suppose) - the police decides whether or not to investigate and transfers, if enough indications that a crime has been committed exist, the file to an “investigating judge”
2/ you file a formal complaint and indicate you’ve suffered from the crime. In this case, an investigating judge (who is a part of the legislative branch - so once more there’s a separation with the executive) is automatically appointed to investigate the charges.
What i was wondering about was whether or not there existed such a possibility - to have a criminal investigation carried out by an independent member of the judiciary..
As the main reason for the troubles at the time is that the judges refused to participate in supporting probable election fraud - you’d assume they have some sort of power..
In conclusion - I think no democracy can function without a proper separation of the executive, legislative and judiciary branch..
Ulysses
May 17th, 2006 at 12:38 pm
And the Big Pharaoh says:
My wild guess says that the 2 girls were prostitutes …
So that’s ok is it ???
As usual, it’s the woman’s fault !!!
Jeeeeez - and I’m bigoted !!!!
May 17th, 2006 at 12:43 pm
Ulysses,
I know that the TV in the movie may lead to you think that this is a living room.
But It’s very common in egypt to have TVs in any principle offices. As they has nothing to do till they get orders. Police officers has no system to monitor they activities. Simply they do what they want.
Sean Shalor,
This is not islam. We are here talking about persons who have no rules to keep. They have no human feelings. They feel happy when they insult others.
They have committed crimes and murders and have been convected in courts.
And then a presidential forgiveness order is their gift. So they return back to work to continue their crimes.
I know this is hard to imagine but this is Egypt in this moment.
Dear Sandmonkey,
Thank you.
All the world,
Help Us
May 17th, 2006 at 12:45 pm
Hal Says:
That’s the reaction of a lazy, ignorant, backward thinking idiot.
Thankyou for your balanced and informed view.
I do have some experience of summary justice in Islamic countries and believe me this is TYPICAL. It is disgusting and TYPICAL. Show me an Islamic country where this kind of thing is not everyday experience and I will accept your insulting mantle. Until then I will continue to condemn this kind of wickedness which is being carried out with the authority of senior Islamic figures.
May 17th, 2006 at 12:55 pm
Ok, and once more to Sean Shalor - then I’ll put this part of the discussion to bed.
We both see the same video of a woman being beaten up.
My reaction: This is horrible - Police abuse? - what can be done?
Your reaction: Islam, love and compassion (which to me sounds strikingly similar to: it’s the Joooz! but with a hint of sarcasm. Correct me if I misunderstood your comment.)
By saying that, you (1) unnecessarily and unjustifiedly insult every muslim (2) and this is worse, indirectly lift the blame from the individual policeman - he could blame it on Islam too…
What’s even more astonishing, to me at least, is that you elaborate your answer by quoting a statement to the effect that men are required ‘to provide women with not only monetary support but also physical protection and kind and respectful treatment’ - regardless of whether or not I agree with the rest of what the man says - what strange reasoning is it you adopted to arrive at the conclusion that beating up women is caused/condoned/promoted by islam?
May 17th, 2006 at 1:09 pm
Until Islam or its teachers and adherents accept the cruelties and inequities that are built in to its credo - and do something about that - these (universal) practices will continue.
Until Islam or its teachers and adherents stop saying “Don’t Christians/ atheists or w.h.y. do these kinds of things” they have no reason to stop.
Until Islam or its teachers and adherents stop saying that everything within their ambit is the fault of somebody else (Jews, Americans etc) or that such and such a man is a dictator, not a good Moslem, a fundamentalist - they are excused.
These things are not the will of God, nor are they somebody elses’ responsibilty.
We are all imperfect, we have to fix our own problems - Moslems included.
If Islam is always exempted from blame (even in an Islamic country), then it’s not actually doing anything or exercising any influence.
May 17th, 2006 at 1:14 pm
Sean, this has nothing to do with Islam, trust you me. I highly doubt that those men and their leaders believe in any kind of god. This is human curelty, plain and simple!
May 17th, 2006 at 1:34 pm
Sandmonkey
It is classical to make the lofty suggestion, when a single soul should dare to criticise an entire philosophy … that he must be wrong … so many years, so many scholars etc. In the thirties, people were mocked, reviled and occasionally imprisoned for suggesting that Nazi-ism and Hitler (Saviours of Europe) could be malign. More recently, McCarthy in the USofA reran the Salem witch-hunts to general applause. In both those deplorable episodes, huge public support was garnered from well-meaning “normal” people who sincerely felt that they were helping society along. The belief in ones own cause on the basis of numbers, is no guarantee of virtue.
I’m sorry to disagree with you, but I believe that Islam DOES supply the weapons of oppression to these and to many other people. Do you really think that a “belief in God” prevents acts of cruelty - no of course you don’t. You know as well as I do that many/most of the dreaful acts of terrorism are committed by devout folks who often own a valid (if misguided) social conscience. Belief in God is just words - it doesn’t change the nature of the man. Hitler was a believer, and so was McCarthy.
May 17th, 2006 at 2:32 pm
I know I said I would shut up about this one, really because comments posted here should be about the poor woman rather than about the nature of Islam, and I apologise to anyone who counted on me to stick to my promise - but gee, Sean Shalor, you sound like an intelligent person, why are you turning this thing around like this? Criminal law deals with individual responsability - you stick it to the offender, not to his relatives, not to his employer, not to his fellow believers/disbelievers, not to his religion. I’m as much against totalitarian government as you are, I’m as much against nazi’s as any man, and I don’t like terrorists either, and in my book, that also implies you do not condemn a billion muslims, or their religion, for the acts of individuals who commit atrocities. The asshole in the video was as far as you or I know not beating up the woman in the name of Islam, or because ‘Islam’ told him so, and if even if he did, he did not represent Islam or its followers. At least, that’s what I gather from my personal Muslim friends and the Muslim contributors to this blog whose express statements make it clear to me they do not consider the fucker representative for them. By the way, Islam - as opposed to the Roman Catholicism I adhere to for instance - is not the homogenous monolith you appear to assume it is, and does not have a single voice, and as such, I don’t think anybody is able to claim to speak for Islam. Nor can you hold ‘Islam’ responsible for actions of individuals who are or claim to be its followers. You understand? If I commit a crime in the name of tribal animalism tomorrow, I wouldn’t expect anyone to hold tribal animalism accountable for anything I did either. If any individual commits crimes, invoking a set of beliefs (which this guy did not), regardless of the nature or worthiness of such beliefs, I would still expect them to be judged on the crimes they committed rather than have the beliefs they adhere to judged, or rather than have the ethnicity/religion they belong to condemned (in your view, on a vague and abstract notion such as failing to intervene or condemn the sort of behavior in strong enough language). By the way, now that you’ve mentioned him, let’s talk a little bit about Hitler - wasn’t he the one who blamed Judaism for everything that went wrong - what’s the difference with blaming Islam for everything that goes wrong? Look man, I don’t question your right as a ’single soul’ to question Islam, as a religion, as a set of ideas and beliefs, as a ‘philosophy’ if you so will it, and I think it’s ok for individuals to challenge entire sets of beliefs, regardless of the amount of believers. I’m with you on that one. It’s just that I think you’re wrong, and I also think that’s not really what you’re doing - challenging Islam. At least, I’m not reading a thought-provoking, stimulating intellectual argument in your posts that could bring any Muslim to question his ideas and beliefs. You’re just blaming it - and basically without even the slightest bit of substantial argumentation.
Ulysses.
May 17th, 2006 at 2:56 pm
Ulysses
“I’m not reading a thought-provoking, stimulating intellectual argument in your posts
I responded briefly, in terms which I felt appropriate, to the various brickbats aimed in my direction - whilst hopefully avoiding some of the dumber more insulting stuff which is sadly often standard fodder here.
You’re just blaming it - and basically without even the slightest bit of substantial argumentation.
I have charged unequivocally, that their ethic is flawed - with examples.
you do not condemn a billion muslims, or their religion, for the acts of individuals who commit atrocities
If they say that they believe, and their scriptures corroborate that - who am I, or you, to doubt them.
May 17th, 2006 at 3:07 pm
… could bring any (insert chosen religion) to question his ideas and beliefs
Does that ever happen ? Is it not an oxymoron ?
May 17th, 2006 at 3:44 pm
I’ll have to side with Ulysses on this.
In the north-of-Dallas region where I work, there is an enormous population of Middle Eastern and Pakistani immigrants. One of the largest in the nation, I suspect. And they’re all normal people, just trying to make a living so they can send their kids to good schools. They show respect as long as they are shown respect — they’re just citizens like everybody else.
I mean, the rest of the world can be burning, but I can go down for some chicken Tikka, and be greated with smiles and shown my favorite table. Paris may be on fire, but we’re cool.
May 17th, 2006 at 3:46 pm
Ulysses
It is clear from some of your assertions such as:
Islam … is not the homogenous monolith you appear to assume it is, and does not have a single voice, and as such, I don’t think anybody is able to claim to speak for Islam. that you are not familiar with the references I made to Egypt’s Supreme Council for Islamic Affairs website:
www islamic-council org/ (put a dot in the space)
You will find very detailed stuff which is as close to constitutional prescriptions as you can get. I think that is an adequate basis for an opinion, even if you don’t like it. It is necessary of course to distinguish between “Islam” and nascent Egytian “government” processes - but the rules are islamic and the country’s executive claims their implementation. I am quite sure that this limits the extent to which you can validly claim exemption for Islam as a significant force. In principle, the same applies to any other religious belief when so extensively entwined in the host society - Islam is generally more pervasive because of the extent to which other beliefs (or disbeliefs) are restricted.
I think it would be false to assume that the Egyptian administration is unaware of the heavy hand being applied by the way.
May 17th, 2006 at 3:51 pm
to put it succinctly : a lot of shit has happened in the name of many religions throughout history . period . and you can find lots of misogyny ,misery and justifications for all sorts of immorality in ANY religon but this is dependent on whoever interprets it . so do not condemn the whole lot of us simply because some people interpret religon to their advantage when there is much in the essense of islam that is good and humane
May 17th, 2006 at 3:54 pm
Gadfly
just trying to make a living so they can send their kids to good schools. They show respect as long as they are shown respect — they’re just citizens like everybody else.
But that was my very point … “huge public support was garnered from well-meaning “normal” people who sincerely felt that they were helping society along. ”
This is the VERY issue - the ideology - not the guys with whom you share the chicken Tikka. That’s why it’s such a difficult and dangerous business !!
May 17th, 2006 at 3:58 pm
Absolutly disgusting, and revolting. I stand for a lot of things but the physical abuse of women is a BIG no,no, for me. As far as the Big Pharoh stating that this women is a “Prostitute” I dont know how you can possibly say that. Is every women a Prostitute until proven innocent? Why does one asume she is a Prostitute? And even if she was a “prostitute” thats no reason for this pig to act in the manner which he has acted. Once again very, very disgusting, I am glad i am not in Egypt becase if I was I would torch a police station in the state of Anger I am in right now.
May 17th, 2006 at 3:59 pm
hebe Says:
do not condemn the whole lot of us simply because some people interpret religon …
Please don’t accuse me of “condemning the whole lot of us”. If you would take the trouble to read the posts you would see that that was not the case. You may also find that “inter[retation” is not a notion that Islamic scholars welcome.
May 17th, 2006 at 4:07 pm
Sean Shalor their is no such thing as interpratation in Islam. The Truth is right their for all to see and what that man did on that tape was a grave violation of Shriah.
May 17th, 2006 at 4:09 pm
I am an Muslim and an Imazigan. And we have very low Domestic abuse rates in our Villages. I would blame Culture not religion.
May 17th, 2006 at 4:12 pm
Angry!!!!!!!!!!!!Libyan”American” Says:
Sean Shalor their is no such thing as interpratation in Islam.
I know - that’s why I said that it “is not a notion that Islamic scholars welcome”.
“I would torch a police station i” I can identify with that.
May 17th, 2006 at 4:23 pm
“is not a notion that Islamic scholars welcome” Which islamic Scholars do you speak of? It seems that the muslim Brotherhood is hell bent on overthrowing this regime, you cant possibly tell me thatv they support this?
May 17th, 2006 at 4:24 pm
Whoever suppports this is an Infidel Sean Shalor.
May 17th, 2006 at 4:27 pm
Angry!!!!!!!!!!!!Libyan”American” Says:
Which islamic Scholars do you speak of?
Maybe you misunderstood my post.
hebe said:
… simply because some people interpret religon to their advantage
My reply to hebe was that for Islam there is no interpretation.
That’s all !
May 17th, 2006 at 4:44 pm
Riddle me this:
What do you call a Muslim who doesn’t condone woman-beating; no, downright condemns it?
May 17th, 2006 at 5:32 pm
“THE LONE AND LEVEL SANDS STRETCH FAR AWAY…”
A 19th century photograph of Pompey’s Pillar in Alexandria, by the Frenchman Félix Bonfils. More of his pictures here. [Via The Arabist] Elsewhere, another Middle East blog, Tabsir, ponders a much less inspiring image of modern Egypt - a plainclothes
May 17th, 2006 at 5:47 pm
I think this is dictatorship rather than Islam. Stalin’s and Mao’s police were just as bad. No doubt the North Korean police still are.
The question is whether Islam, with its concept of the unified state and religion, tends to create dictatorships, or whether the problem is backwardness and illiteracy. Stamping out police violence and corruption may demand a large and prosperous middle class to set moral standards. The rich don’t need moral standards and the poor can’t afford them.
May 17th, 2006 at 5:55 pm
I just watched it. That’s pretty disturbing. Like I said to BP, I doubt this is the tip of the iceberg in things that they do inside.
May 17th, 2006 at 6:22 pm
Sean Shalor, as it is defintely your right to say whatever the hell you want, I also have the right to tell you to suck my big fat cock you fucked up stupid ignorant filthy son of a pig. We are all pissed here at the abuse this poor woman is receiving from that stupid son of a bitch and you resort to blaming Islam straight away??! You are brainwashed because you must have been listening to some serious anti-Islam propaganda or a so-called “Muslim” chauvinist pig preaching about women in Islam. It’s not religion, culture or whatever that should be blamed… It’s simply peoples’ mentality and this police officers mentality is worse than that of a squashed cockroach. Sandmonkey thank you for being so brave and posting this. I hope your father is recovering well. Bro the same shyte happens in Sudan. Those officers are so bored and have nothing to do better than seeking excitement from this sick shit. Fucking assholes!
I’ve mentioned before in my previous post http://sudanesethinker.blogspot.com/2006/04/do-you-want-to-start-clapping.html
(it is us humans that are flawed. We are flawed because we have the gift of choice and sometimes get the temptation to make the wrong decisions. Those wrong decisions are not a result of religious commandments. Never attribute the wrong and negative actions back to the religion of the “practicer”, for every negative action is a sin, and a sin in any religion is the result of not adhering to that religion itself.)
That fuckface won’t even smell heaven if that’s what you think Sean Shalor…
May 17th, 2006 at 6:33 pm
Ok, so I think we all agree that this is horrific. Anyone witnessing this with a heart and soul is angered and disgusted. But let’s not just be disgusted and tut tut and go on about our affairs –what can we do to change things? Getting the information out that such abuses happen and regularly is one of the first steps (good job SM! for starting the ball rolling). Can we put our heads together and come up with some constructive ideas for steps 2 and 3 and beyond to get this kind of abuse eradicated?
Let’s talk and come up with some plans of action!
May 17th, 2006 at 6:46 pm
find out who the head of the egyptian police is and start a media campaign about him?? Maybe a picture of him puffing a cigar and drinking some wine while a police officer smacks a woman nearby… That would put pressure on him I guess. Would it SM?
However we must be sure that we don’t let the actions of a few screwed up officers ruin the image of the sincere ones. It’s the minority of the force that are screwed up and not the majority right SM? Please say yes!
I hope that’s constructive =)
May 17th, 2006 at 7:04 pm
> The Sandmonkey Says:
> May 17th, 2006 at 1:14 pm
> Sean, this has nothing to do with Islam, trust you me.
How comes?
Of course it must be Islam, that backward retarded death cult!
Because - look at alternative explanations:
Imagine it had to do with a 2 billion dollar bribe from the US,
to keep up the only jewish-only disneyland and to protect the
“american way of life” - cheap gas for trailer park Joe, citizen of
the most advanced nation on earth!
If the latter were true, you - clown - would contradict yourself, so
it is ONLY a matter of Islam and thus another reason to keep the
pharao in power and your libertarian friends in prison.
You don’t want to kiss Mubaraks butt?
Then try again - and become used to it - do it for your great Fuhrer
- G. W. Bush!
And here some more pictures showing the evilness of Islam:
http://www.antiwar.com/photos/perm/capt6.jpg
http://www.antiwar.com/photos/perm/ag23.jpg
http://www.antiwar.com/photos/perm/ag25.jpg
May 17th, 2006 at 7:26 pm
Angry Libyan,
Once again very, very disgusting, I am glad i am not in Egypt becase if I was I would torch a police station in the state of Anger I am in right now.
Are you familiar with the way the Bulgarian nurses have been treated in Libya?
BTW, I have a suggestion that might make yoy less angry. Are you aware it’s possible to renounce your own citizenship? Since you are also a Libyan national as well as a US national, that would leave you only Libyan, and not Libyan/American. And since most of your vitriol seeems to be directed at the country you live in, America, you could probably drop the “angry” off your moniker as well, no?
Seems like a win/win to me. What do you think?
Sean, I can’t go along with the “it’s Islam” theory. Prisoners are treated that badly (or worse) in most of liatin america and asia, and even in many parts of europe. That’s what happens in a police state - any police state. The police do whatever the hell they want.
May 17th, 2006 at 7:34 pm
Drima aka SudaneseThinker
I think you perhaps need to do a little thinking - or perhaps read what I actually said, rather than what you want to believe I said. I understand that you enjoy flinging abuse around but actually you reveal more about yourself than any informed opinion.
You say “I’ve mentioned before in my previous post” well yes, your hysterical rants have all been “mentioned before” many times. Why not try to make a contribution rather than just being your boring offensive self.
May 17th, 2006 at 7:39 pm
I’m hardly a defender of Islam, but if that video is legit–and I’ll accept the SM’s representations that it is–then it is something that happens in authoritarian regimes everywhere. Do you think that things are any better in, say, Cuba? How about China? North Korea?
Evil is evil, no matter what the motivating force is………………
May 17th, 2006 at 7:48 pm
Don Cox, - Yes, Stalin’s and Mao’s police were just as bad , but do you know why? Because they were following their ideology in which they believed is the right one.
May 17th, 2006 at 8:01 pm
Craig , if the government allows those kind of “activities” or maybe even supports them , in the name of “whatever” it is ,so it can happen everywhere.
May 17th, 2006 at 8:03 pm
“find out who the head of the egyptian police is and start a media campaign about him?? Maybe a picture of him puffing a cigar and drinking some wine while a police officer smacks a woman nearby… That would put pressure on him I guess. Would it SM?”
The country with the most “freedom of the press” is almost always the most free, period. That’s why we put up with the aggravation that is found in conjunction with a free press.
When you can get this kind of abuse in the newspaper, so it can be discussed by the comman man — the abuse will taper off sharply. It will always be there. It’s here in the States, as well, but it hides in tiny pockets. And sooner or later, each is ferretted out and shut down.
May 17th, 2006 at 8:23 pm
“I think you perhaps need to do a little thinking - or perhaps read what I actually said…Why not try to make a contribution rather than just being your boring offensive self. ”
Sean, I have already done more than enough thinking so go and practice your freedom of speech as much as you want and I’ll practice mine. Just as what I typed was vulgar you must understand that what you say is extremely offensive. I was too pissed when I saw the video and then your stupid comment just pissed me off even further. The fact that I cursed and used bad language against you is sinfull and un-Islamic in itself and so were the actions of the police officer in the video. Therefore blame the evil of the individual and not the religion. Believe whatever you want but at the end of the day I pitty you because you are ignorant by bringing Islam into this specific issue. If you truly want to make a contribution you should at least change that mentality of yours.
Godfly, the truth is these things are not easy to change and will always continue happening but at least the man in the video can hopefully be punished. What about human rights organizations? Things won’t change overnight and that’s what makes it so frustrating. These people have a hellfire waiting for them even if they escape the punishment in this world.
May 17th, 2006 at 8:26 pm
Wow, SM, this is a much more interesting and less nasty discussion than I expected. Not that it’s tea time but that’s not what blogs are. Also, I am open minded to a degree that if I saw Islam as the problem in itself, I wouldn’t have trouble condemning it. But, Sean, I don’t see you outlining HOW Islam in itself is responsible for this. I get it that an imam or scholar said, in essence, women are subhumans. We don’t have that as much in the U.S. by far but it’s not unknown. It doesn’t mean that Christianity as a whole supports it. So what I’d like to ask you is that if you really feel this (and here’s probably not the right place), please show how scripturally Islam’s responsible for this. And what I’d like to ask the rest of you is, regardless of where you stand, I haven’t seen many people here in a pro-women beating place, so: What is to be done about it? What tangible course of action can we all take? The only suggestion I’ve heard is to shame the police chief. My limited experience suggests his type is not easily cowed by shame.
May 17th, 2006 at 8:29 pm
Sean Salor,
hmmmm…. what can I say. You could quote a hundred things that are wrong with Islam and many could be true. I could quote a hundred things that are wrong with (pick a religion or ideology).
Frankly, I believe every person is entitled to like or hate whatever he wants. Well if u wan’t to hate Islam and all muslims go right ahead. Knock yourself out. I hate broccoli and spinach and I believe I have the right to.
May 17th, 2006 at 8:33 pm
actually sean shalor and angry american libyan there is.
there are four schools of islamic legal and interprative thought (shariaa)
the malaki , the hanabli , the shafee and the hanafee
you see islam is not just a religon but a whole way of life .
May 17th, 2006 at 8:34 pm
Curt,
If you really wanted to discuss this, you’d have to go back and read all the references I quoted - which would be altogether too tedious. In any case, as you rightly say, this is probably not the place. The fashion here seems to be reading one post, shooting from the hip and doing a bit of logic chopping about the use of some word or other. Much more interest in trying to misunderstand than v.v.
May 17th, 2006 at 8:43 pm
i still think it had nothing to do with islam . its another ugly facet of this corrupt authoritarian regime. mind you i wont deny that that a lot things happen that lead me to question my faith . but ill repeat again all religons (except perhaps buddhism) have their share of misery . atheists claim the whole raison d’etre of most religons is misery and denial . but i’ll still cling to the good in religon . because there is much that is good
May 17th, 2006 at 9:36 pm
Just like in Algeria.
May 17th, 2006 at 9:57 pm
The Islam that I see practiced is very much done so in a way that is compatible with modern Western civilization. For the most part, nobody brings a prayer carpet to the office. Just like Christians don’t say grace before eating in the office lunch room. It does not mean that they are not religious, it just means that they have learned to keep their prayers between themselves and their God, without disturbing or creating a spectacle for everybody else. When they get to their own homes and are not being paid for their time, then I’m sure they do things more traditionally, just as do the Christians, Jews, Shintoists, Buddhists, etc. etc.
Still, I drive by mosques with shiny gold minarettes. Everyone accepts Islam as one of the common religions of this country. At least on the surface, there appears to be no conflict.
May 17th, 2006 at 10:18 pm
This video should not shake us much.
Let’s see: it is true it can be taped anywhere and not in a police station. Besides: IT CONTAINS THE MINIMUM POLICE AUTHORITIES, ESPECIALLY STATE SECURITY DOES TO BOTH MEN AND WOMEN.
come on guys: it is just a beating with a plastic hose or stick or whatever, the woman will be ok in a couple of days, THEY DO NOT REALLY MEAN TO HARM HER, IT IS A JOKE COMPARED TO WHAT THEY DO. Reports by Egyptian and Internation human rights - including Amnesty international- and antitorture organizations report much much horrifying techniques: electrocuting, whipping on bare skin, leeching, rape, burning with cigarettes and other hot objects and many more. Tens of deaths every year in police stations under torture. And we do not need vidoes to prove it. I guess hundreds of reports by different organizations with photoes and testimonies of victims are more than enough. Do not let the fact that you SAW THAT ON THE VIDEO blind you that the truth is much much worse. And we all as Egyptians are responsible. We did not say no, and we did not say it loud enough.
May 17th, 2006 at 10:39 pm
> Do you think that things are any better in, say, Cuba? How about China? North Korea?
Noooo. But it’s the Islam, stupid:
http://www.antiwar.com/photos/perm/capt6.jpg
http://www.antiwar.com/photos/perm/ag23.jpg
http://www.antiwar.com/photos/perm/ag25.jpg
May 17th, 2006 at 11:11 pm
In repsone to Yael’s comment, you want to change things, I hate to say it but we need more videos like this over a wider array of dates. We need stuff like this from the 90s all the way to last week. We need to prove this is systematic. Then, this is all up to you man, if you want send it to all the MSM outlets and bombard them to show over and over again. Find out who the head of police is. Send letters asking why this is state policy, etc etc… You can see where I’m going with this I think…
May 17th, 2006 at 11:33 pm
How do we know this video is authentic?
May 18th, 2006 at 12:39 am
looks like Abu Ghraib prison pretty much or should I say the Israeli prisons?!
May 18th, 2006 at 1:20 am
Israeli prison? Abu Gharib? Give me a break. It is a problem with a male dominated culture. And maybe Egyptian police can beat a woman the same way muslim parents (ie. Palestinians, Pakistanis ) can have their sons murder their daughters who choose to date or refuse an arranged marriage. I have never heard of Christians or Jews having their daughters murdered for disobeying their parents. So yeah, I basically don’t think Sean is so wrong. There is a problem with misogyny in Islam.
May 18th, 2006 at 2:12 am
I’d like to preface my comments by saying that what takes place in the video is highly endemic to ANY police state but no less disturbing. The fact that Islam got brought into the converstion shouldn’t surprise anyone that reads this blog either.
Sean Shalor has gotten beat up pretty bad and the muslims in here may not care for me too much either because I happen to agree with him. What you need to understand, and I can only speak for myself, is that I hate myself for believing what I do about Islam. I don’t want to think this way but those who speak the loudest in the name of Islam want to kill me, my family and anyone else who is non-muslim. I find it both amusing and sad that intelligent, well informed people of the Islamic faith forget that many if not most Americans got thier first taste of Islam on 9-11. You forget that we saw the “dancing in the streets” that day all over the ME with the crowds chanting “Allah Akhbar” and “death to the west”. And yet you expect us to look past ALL of that to see the “true Islam” when virtually NO ONE with real authority in the Islamic community condemned the attacks. Some individuals did condemn them but were virtually muted out by the images and words of Mohammed Atta, Ayman al-Zawahiri, Usama bin-Laden and more recently by the likes of Hamas and Mahmood Ahmadinajad who wants to bring about the “end of history”.
This is why I’m so grateful for The Sandmonkey’s blog and all the others from his part of the world. It gives those of us who want one a different perspective. Just try to remember where our perspective began and when you direct your anger towards us (non-muslims) rather than those who you say has perverted Islam and gave us these beliefs it just makes us wonder sometimes…
May 18th, 2006 at 2:33 am
Hey there, Twosret
looks like Abu Ghraib prison pretty much
Actually, the Abu Ghraib abuses were much worse than what I saw in that video. But, the Abu Ghraib perps are in prison themselves, now. What are the odds that man in this video will be prosecuted?
or should I say the Israeli prisons?!
Ok, if you don’t have any documentary evidence of this claim, I think you’re out of line for making it. You aren’t helping the cause of Egyptians by saying the Israelis are “just as bad.” In fact, that can serve as a jsutification for Egyptian police abuse. Why should they treat anybody better than the Israelis do, right?
And, without evidence, you aren’t helping the Palestinians either. And please don’t give me third hand “accounts” of what Israelis did. I learned a long time ago that sometimes people tell lies. I’m thinking more along the lines of actual documentation.
May 18th, 2006 at 4:23 am
Men are animals, under the influance of Islam they become brutish, cruel animals.
Here is a few insights into Women and Islam
Papa Ray
May 18th, 2006 at 6:25 am
eee, more photos showing the evilness of Islam:
http://www.ogrish.com/archives/2005/october/ogrish-dot-com-three_teenagers_beheaded_in_indonesia1.jpg
http://www.ogrish.com/archives/2005/october/ogrish-dot-com-three_teenagers_beheaded_in_indonesia2.jpg
http://www.ogrish.com/archives/2005/november/ogrish-dot-com-india_bomb_explosion_victim3.jpg
May 18th, 2006 at 6:30 am
Hebe, why except Buddhism?
“Violent mobs have carried out at least 160 attacks on churches or Christian institutions since 2002, when Buddhist monks first launched their campaign to introduce anti-conversion legislation…..”
http://dailynews.mybiblebase.com/go.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.worthynews.com%2Fchristian%2Fthree-churches-attacked-in-sri-lanka%2F
May 18th, 2006 at 6:33 am
Besides videos, there is a lot of information on police torturing people - men and women - over a period of many years, which was published as a yearly report by the Association for the Protection of the Rights of Prisoners which used to be led by Mohamed Zarea (who was kept under house arrest for the past couple of years and has sicne passed the headship of the organiation on to someone else, who I think is a relative same last name). They sent it to me every year for several years because I had done a project for NGOs and got on their mailing list. The documentation is out there. Maybe it is nto as galvanizing to read about the torture as it is to see the videos, but it is there.
Police states exist in Muslim majority countries and in non-Muslim majority countries. Police do not beat up on people because of their religion. I have never heard a policeman in Egypt mention religion as a factor in the way he behaves or use any religious justification for anything he does. The idea is completely ludicrous. Also what about police who are Copts (and there are some) who behave exactly the same as the Muslim ones? Police brutality is part of the regular setup of an authoritarian state. And authoritarian states are not about ideology necessarily (and the Mubarak state is certainly not abotu ideology - religious or other). Just keeping power through force. That’s it.
May 18th, 2006 at 6:53 am
Matt is right, more evidence will definitely be needed but I don’t think it has to be evidence going so far back. I think if a good amount of evidence (including pictures of injuries to those who have been released, statements from Journaslists such as Abeer who were victims of abuse themselves, and so forth) a compelling argument and rallying cry can be made. The difficulty is getting those videos and pictures and the fear-factor of speaking up for those who have already suffered abuse. I’m wondering about putting up a website (in arabic) where people could (anonymously if need be) send in evidence?
May 18th, 2006 at 8:09 am
61 jeff_boeing Said:
“Sean Shalor has gotten beat up pretty bad”
Thankyou for your concern, but no problem. Abuse often conceals recognition of an unwelcome truth. And in any case, could I have wished for a better illustration ?
It is almost comical …
If I had said that American social mores have been strongly influenced for good and ill by the “Protestant Work Ethic”, although the founding fathers are now long gone … I do not imagine that the John Birch Society would have been baying for blood.
If I say that Islamic social mores have been strongly influenced by a morbid fear of women and an obsession with vengeance, although the originating tribes are now long gone … Presto, “SudaneseThinker” and “RamblingHal” et al are in a raging froth about it.
But the fact remains - if your credo contains the seeds, the plant can flourish. It is not a matter of individual belief, it is a matter of social context. Case by case arguments are irrelevant. It is entirely right that there should be concern for the victim in this thread - and imperative that the contributing climate is recognised.
Some burn embassies - some build them.
May 18th, 2006 at 9:44 am
The video link is banned by Qtel. Hmmm
May 18th, 2006 at 10:49 am
Qatar Cat Says:
The video link is banned by Qtel. Hmmm
Surprise me.
Waleed Al Sayed, QCV Manager said “I would like to reaffirm Qtel’s commitment to family viewing. We are dedicated to providing our viewers with safe and suitable viewing and therefore we invest heavily in censorship and protection,” he added.”
They explained live audio-video chat is also offered by certain websites that promote promiscuity.
Khalil Ebrahim Al Emadi, Executive Director, Wireline Services at Qtel, revealed that the company had drawn a long list of shops and retail outlets such as restaurants who were functioning as unlicensed cyber cafes to offer long distance calls on the IP and were working with local police to conduct raids on them.
May 18th, 2006 at 11:05 am
Sean Shalor your comment was offensive and sarcastic. Now even though jeff_boeing did agree with you, I’m not offended or angry at him by any means whatsoever for the simple reason that he put his argument constructively.
jeff_boeing I can defintely understand why you would think what you think of Islam and I don’t blame you dude. However Sean Shalor, your argument about the policeman’s actions being based on Islam are just plain stupid and are not even related to this topic. This is about police cruelty plain and simple. It happens everywhere were the law enforcers are above the law.
May 18th, 2006 at 11:12 am
Drima aka SudaneseThinker Says:
“your argument about the policeman’s actions being based on Islam are just plain stupid and are not even related to this topic.”
Those are YOUR WORDS - not mine.
Which part of this do you not understand ?
It is not a matter of individual belief, it is a matter of social context. Case by case arguments are irrelevant. It is entirely right that there should be concern for the victim in this thread - and imperative that the contributing climate is recognised.
May 18th, 2006 at 11:21 am
I just got done reading through all the posts since my “entry” yesterday. Some interesting comments, along with the usual readers posting the usual comments (eg. Eee screaming figuratively about those evil JJJJJJJJJJJOOOOOOOOOOOZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!!!!!, etc.). I still stand by what I originally said. What we saw in that video clip, if it is legitimate, is emblematic of what goes on in any authoritarian police state. Islam has nothing to do with it.
We all need to keep the SM in our thoughts and prayers. They may be coming for him next…………..
May 18th, 2006 at 11:31 am
BornIn1965 Says:
?
” … any authoritarian police state. Islam has nothing to do with it.”
Perish the thought.
How could you mention those two things in the same breath
May 18th, 2006 at 11:39 am
Are you really trying to miss the point?
Surely you must know there are tons of authoritarian police states that are not majority Muslim countries?
And there are some Muslim countries that are not authoritarian police states? (Turkey ring a bell?)
I mean, come on here. You are not being logical at all and you are not being helpful in using this horrible episode to go after an entire religion. If you don’t like the religion there are lots of better fora in which to attack it. This is getting silly.
You keep using the words “social context.” Egypt has had a secular and authoritarian government for years. It has not always had its current fad of ultra-pious following of Islam. When it was a more secular society, police brutality was NOT less (latter days of Nasser, e.g.). The society gets more religious and less religious - the authoritarian police nature of the government stays the same.
May 18th, 2006 at 11:56 am
Anna in Cairo Says:
Are you really trying to miss the point?
No - but I think perhaps you are ?
My little jest to “BornIn1965″ was just that - a jest.
If you will actually READ the things I have said about “social context” (would you prefer “national psche” or some such) you may see that I am making a point about the kind of things that affect all of us, depending upon the cultures that we just happened to be raised in. I think that like some others, you are so convinced that you are under attack that you go into combat mode right away.
I have never suggested, nor do I believe, that any culture has a monopoly on cruelty and wickedness - BUT - there are contributing background reasons for all our failings and we have to confront them. And “background” in this ssense owes nothing to recent history. Breast-beating and judicial transparency has certainly been the fashion in the west for some time and maybe that is one reason why we tend to be preoccupied with it.
This does make a change - it is not long since I was getting a dusting from the usual suspects here when I defended the case of a young (Muslim) Afghani woman in the UK on a charge of infant cruelty.
May 18th, 2006 at 12:15 pm
Sean - cool, bro. This really has nothing to do with Islam - and everything to do with tyranny. Bringing Islam into it is just as counterproductive as bringing brain cancer into it - both tend to have horrible results, but have nothing to do with the issue. Yes?
Moreover, by attacking Islam where it warrants no attack hurts the credibility of any other criticism of it. Remember Peter and the Wolf?
And as for a solution… as I have posted elsewhere, the people need to be either rich enough to think or oppressed enough not to eat in order to act. The real solution, then, should be either a drastic increase in the economic wellbeing of the average Egyptian - or a drastic increase in the oppression thereof. Since none of the posters here (I hope) are in position to oppress a population, the former option is the feasible one.
So get cracking! Start opening up businesses in Egypt and paying workers good money!
May 18th, 2006 at 12:26 pm
The Raccoon Says:
by attacking Islam where it warrants no attack hurts the credibility of any other criticism of it. Remember Peter and the Wolf?
Well - you have me there. Your first I don’t understand, your second I don’t remember - but thank you anyway, I’m sure that will be a great help.
May 18th, 2006 at 12:43 pm
I’m going to go out on a limb here. The Egyptian regime may be thuggish and immoral, but it’s not stupid. This isn’t about Islam, but it’s also not really about women, either, at least not in the obvious sense.
Last year, when the police and mukhabarat were assulting women in the Kifaya movement, I said to a friend of mine “Look how fast this goes from being a debate about the issues to a debate about protecting the ladies…” It took about one day. Then everyone was talking about how bad this regime was to women (which it is), but not about fundamental abuses of ALL its citizens.
This is basically the same thing. Whether they’re beating/sexually violating women (as with one of my friends who was molested at a protest last year) or anally raping a man with a baton or broomstick, or just plain cracking the skulls of men AND women in the streets, the regime uses what it can to express it power on the bodies of the Egyptian people.
When we allow ourselves to emotionally respond to violence against women AS WOMEN, we lose sight of the fact that this is violence against women as citizens, first and foremost. I firmly believe that the regime understands this, which is why they gender their abuses in the first place.
Just my two cents.
May 18th, 2006 at 12:58 pm
Yes, Stacey, I think your point has something to be said for it. And can I just say that one of the biggest problems with patriarchy is this “we must protect the women folks” stuff that distracts from core issues (e.g., police brutality) - it is really a good point that police can get people off on this tangent and then it’s no longer about the right to free speech etc. but it is rather about oh my god, they did something bad to a woman, we must focus all of our energies on the horror of that.
Sean, all those innuendo-filled posts about Islam do somehow put practicing Muslims on the defensive, particularly when they seem to be saying that the religion, itself (not cultural practices that grew up around it, e.g.) is an underlying fault that causes police brutality. Several of your statements, while not very clear, seemed to point in that direction.
I am not usually considered overly defensive, particularly of fundamentalist leanings within my religion. I am in fact consistently against them.
Based on your latest comment, I will now assume that nothing you said had the connotation of “Islam is to blame for Egyptian police brutality” (though in this case, I can’t imagine what you were trying to imply by the majority of your comments).
May 18th, 2006 at 1:10 pm
Ok, let me clear something up:
This isn’t about being in a patriarchial society, nor do I view it like that. This would not be ok if it was done to men either. It’s just..
Ok, I was raised by my grandmother, which is one of the strongest women I know, and someone who has left an impact on Egypt (there is even a square and a mosque named after her). She raised me to respect women and to protect them from harm, especially caused by other men. It’s the one glaring middle-eastern aspect in me. Even my real life friends know about it and how it got me in trouble time and time again. I can not bear the idea of a woman getting physically hurt by a man and not have my blood boil with rage and become fixated on hurting that man back. If that’s sexist or patriarchial, then sure, call me that, I don’t care. I always thought that all men thought the same as me, and that we wouldn;t stand or allow for a woman to get beat up because it can simply be our mothers, duaghetrs or sisters. That’s how I was raised, and that, I believed, was how all men were raised as well.
As you can tell, I was a little naive.
But, still, I can;t help but react this way. I am sorry, but it’s just the way I am built.
May 18th, 2006 at 1:14 pm
Sandmonkey, the white knight approach is one of the more endearing elements of patriarchy, but it does cause you to be distractible by people who are trying to manipulate (as Stacey pointed out, the police). That’s all we were saying. I would like women to be able to protect themselves, and to be assumed as capable of doign that. I wish we all had Xena’s abilities.
May 18th, 2006 at 1:39 pm
Anna in Cairo
all those innuendo-filled posts about Islam …
particularly when they seem to be saying …
Several of your statements, while not very clear …
I don’t go in for hidden meanings. If you look for what they seem to be saying it is easy to see that you may be misled.
Perhaps “speed-reading” the posts, or other peoples reactions, contributed to the lack of clarity. Maybe you missed some of the necessary caveats such as It is necessary of course to distinguish between “Islam” and nascent Egytian “government” processes.
I can’t imagine what you were trying to imply … Well don’t. Just stick with what I actually said !
And on that note - shall we wind up this fruitless dialogue ?
May 18th, 2006 at 2:26 pm
*adding some oil into the flame*
Anna-In-Cairo - the overwhelming majority of women can have “Xena’s abilities”. Start learning Kung-Fu now. In 10 years’ time you’ll be able to kick ass and chew bubblegum. It’s always annoying and pathetic when women presume automatically that they just CAN’T do stuff and then cry about the patriarchistic domination of societies (not that I am saying you do that, mind you
). I know quite a lot of women who are excellent combat pilots, martial artists, front-line soldiers… as the Nike commercial has it, “Just do it!”
My wife is a black-belt Judoka - do you think she would cry and cringe in such a situation?
And to Sean:
By decrying the evils of Islam when it is inappropriate, you are weakening your stance and strengthening the apologetics of Islamic oppression.
As for Peter and the Wolf - it was a mistake. I meant “The Boy Who Cried Wolf” (http://www.storyarts.org/library/aesops/stories/boy.html)
Peace out.
May 18th, 2006 at 2:38 pm
The Raccoon Says:
“As for Peter and the Wolf - it was a mistake. I meant “The Boy Who Cried Wolf”
Ah - I was not surprised by the obscurity of your reference to Sergei Prokofiev.
But now I am.
“quite a lot of women who are excellent combat pilots”
Wow
May 18th, 2006 at 3:38 pm
“Sandmonkey, the white knight approach is one of the more endearing elements of patriarchy”
I don’t know if I would call it “patriarchy”
I was in a restaurant here in Texas, and some asshole slapped his wife. Every able-bodied man in the place stood up and turned toward him. He looked like a deer in the headlights, but being the beligerant type, he “bowed up” in the local vernacular, meaning he made it clear he was going to fight. A couple of guys started toward him and my buddy actually defused the situation. He yelled “Let’s not fight over the check” and everybody cracked up. The woman actually led the jackass out of the restaurant before he got his ass kicked.
Is that “patriarchy”?
What would it have been if we had all just kept our seats and let him smack her around for a while?
Just asking.
May 18th, 2006 at 3:44 pm
@Sean: I do not understand what this video has to do with Islam, your logic is so similar to that of “evil jooos running the world” but in another direction!
Do you read any statistics about domestic violence in the USA? Do you have any idea how many women get beaten daily in the USA, France, Italy and other “modern” countries? All those abusers Muslims? Come on, you are simply ridiculing the entire case; I am not a muslim but I have many many friends from the Middle East and I hate it when people make such generalizations.
Do you know how many “witches” were burnt alive in Europe? Got any idea when was the last one burnt and “purified” ? So much has been done in the name of religion!
This guy who is beating the woman is nit considered a real man in Middle Eastern culture, men should be protective and not exercise their strength on a poor woman.
Please use Google to search and read about women abuse around the globe, Google is a good service, believe me
May 18th, 2006 at 3:49 pm
Oh, and just for the record, Sean Shalor is being a dickhead. Yes, I have some issues with certain interpretations of Islam, but what is shown in the video is standard, workaday totalitarian police state brutality. It has not a damn thing to do with religion.
May 18th, 2006 at 3:54 pm
Loe Z Says:
All sorts of stuff which doesn’t seem to have much to do with my posts.
Perhaps you have been reading (or misreading) the replies Joe.
Have a nice daay
May 18th, 2006 at 3:55 pm
Raccoon,
My wife is a black-belt Judoka - do you think she would cry and cringe in such a situation?
Lets just ignore this unpleasant hypothetical, because I’d rather nobody ever has to find out what your wife would do in this situation.
I have a couple other problems with your advice.
1) Resisting police brutality (physically) tends to get people killed, or gravely harmed rather than just beaten. If it was that easy to resist police brutality (while in police custody) then a big man would basically be immune from police brutality. As the Rodney King video in Los Angeles illustrates, it isn’t so.
2) I’ve never heard of a woman, no matter how skilled, beating up a man that didn’t let her. Have you?
3) I was an active duty infantryman in the US Marines for 6 years. Female marines (who are pretty good physical specimans of womanhood) cannot do the things that male marines can do. They are physically incapable of it. That’s just the simple reality that I saw with my own eyes.
Anyway… I’m not suggesting women should play the victim. I’,m just saying, it may not be a good idea to suggest women can do what a televison superhero does, in real life.
May 18th, 2006 at 3:58 pm
Gadfly Says:
Oh, and just for the record, Sean Shalor is being a dickhead.
It has not a damn thing to do with religion.
Perhaps as you have either not read, or not understood what I wrote, the expletive would most appropriately be applied to yourself.
Youare right about one thing, it is brutality. I guess you had some help working that out
May 18th, 2006 at 4:22 pm
I don’t have to . . . . I’ll take you word on it.
May 18th, 2006 at 4:54 pm
Why did the comments on this post about police brutality, a global phenomenon, shift from generalizations about Islam to generalizations about gender inequality and sexism? Just wondering.
(I’m a man, and I don’t feel responsible at all for other male species of the human race who abuse women, who are, in general, and there’s very little anyone can do about this, physically weaker than us men. I think men who beat up women are scum, and if there’s anything reasonably within my powers I can do about it, I will, but I don’t feel responsible for other men’s actions. I don’t think any other male on the blog feels responsible for the police officer’s behaviour, and I don’t think they should either. In the same way, I don’t think any other Muslim feels responsible for the policeman’s behavior -he happens to be a Muslim, in case somebody didn’t notice- and I don’t think they should either. FYI - I read somewhere that approx. 40,000 women die annually as a result of domestic abuse in present day Russia - at the moment a very secular “democracy”. Don’t ask me for reliable sources though, I think it was in the Lonely Planet guide to St. Petersburg)
Anyhow.
In my opinion, for what it’s worth, what’s needed in Egypt, and to me, this is made clear by the Judges’ problems in addressing election irregularities, the apparently frequently occuring police brutality, the renewal of emergency laws, is a clear separation (not between church and state, Sean, although I agree that’s in general a good thing) between the branches of government.
You guys need a legislative branch to draft the laws, an executive branch to carry them out and a judiciary branch to apply them, and these three should as far as practically possible be independent from each other, and check on each other.
Freedom of press (I don’t know about the US, but in Europe, we frequently refer to the free press as “the fourth branch of government”, because it also checks on government behavior and is able to channel public sentiment and exercise public pressure) is another big issue.
I believe it would be a good thing to put these specific issues on the agenda of political parties and activists and I salute (and apologise for stating the obvious to) those readers who already put more time, effort and sacrifices in doing so.
Ulysses.
May 18th, 2006 at 5:01 pm
Ulysses Says:
is a clear separation (not between church and state, Sean, although I agree that’s in general a good thing)
Hey -leave me out of this ! I’ve made no such reference !
Yo’all are using my name like a punctuation mark
May 18th, 2006 at 5:05 pm
@Sean - just anticipating - wanted to make it clear I’m leaving religion out of the core of the message, no dissin’ you this time
May 18th, 2006 at 5:07 pm
Anna in Cairo Says:
Are you really trying to miss the point?
No - but I think perhaps you are ?
My little jest to “BornIn1965″ was just that - a jest.
And I took it as such!
May 18th, 2006 at 5:11 pm
Ulysses
Smart
May 18th, 2006 at 5:19 pm
Craig:
True, it’s a bit difficult to beat the shit out of cops while in custody. But if you’re in the middle of a demonstration, for example, or a riot… At the end of the day, such situations are about the ability to kick ass (especially in countries not saturated with security cameras and drones).
I have known quite a few women who beat men up without the latter letting them. It is a question of technique and will - a kung-fu master woman will turn a non-trained man into ground beef is she so desires. If she has access to something that can be used as a weapon, it can be quite a large number of untrained men.
The relevant physical difference between men and women in combat is muscle mass - yes, it is more difficult for women to accamulate muscle mass, and they will usually have less muscle than the male counterpart. But it stopped being important when the bow was invented. Women, according to some researches (sorry, don’t have a link) have better reaction time and pain threshold. A woman, therefore, will have more trouble running with a full kit but less trouble running with a bullet in her leg. She would be worse as support gunner, but better as a sniper.
And hey, I was in Nacha”l Rangers - we didn’t have women in our unit back then (I think we do now). But I have been learning Kung-Fu for many years with women and teaching Kung-Fu to women for years - and women fight just as well as men. Especially since they have one less organ that can be torn off to induce pain
The chief problem I have enountered with teaching women to fight was the societal inhibitions - women not believing they can actually do anything and all that crap. And after the woman is beaten repeatedly in combat while being yelled at to just FIGHT BACK, either the inhibitions or the woman go.
We have a saying in IDF - “There is no ‘can’t', only ‘don’t wanna’”. It applies to women “unable” to fight as well.
To conclude - yes, you’re right, suggesting to people to act like superheroes is bad idea in general. But hey, if they do… it’s evolution at work
I was just using this example to highlight a point I was trying to make.
Sorry about the long rant, I am now trying to beat the notion of “I can’t do it, I am a woman!” out of a new student. An issue close to my heart.
Peace out,
The Raccoon
May 18th, 2006 at 6:38 pm
That’s Islam. Peace and compassion.
If you think that I am a bigot, then I think you are blind, foolish and outrageously indulgent of this wicked, brutal ideology.
Would you please stop with the “you didn’t read what I wrote” mantra. We read what you wrote. You blamed Islam for the police brutality. You’re wrong, and you’re a dickhead.
May 18th, 2006 at 8:09 pm
> It is a problem with a male dominated culture.
Yeah, islaaaaam is reaaaallly bad:
http://www.antiwar.com/photos/perm/capt6.jpg
http://www.antiwar.com/photos/perm/ag23.jpg
http://www.antiwar.com/photos/perm/ag25.jpg
May 18th, 2006 at 8:36 pm
Raccoon,
At the end of the day, such situations are about the ability to kick ass
Not sure how many times you’ve actually BEEN in such sitautaions, but I’ve been on both sides of violent protests, and it’s very rare indeed for the rioters to get the upper hand on the “riot police” whether those are cops, or troops.
I have known quite a few women who beat men up without the latter letting them.
You have? Not only have a never known a woman who did that, I’ve never even heard of such an incident. Remind me to stay away from the women you know, they seem like a violent bunch
The relevant physical difference between men and women in combat is muscle mass
No, actually it’s not. It’s strength to weight ratio. Body builder types have quite a lot more trouble with the physical aspects of being an infantryman than a lean but strong guy.
And no, the need to be able to move your own body weight (plus equipment) quickly and efficiently did NOT go away with the invention of the bow.
If you’d like to discuss this seriously, I actually do know something about it
But this probably isn’t the place for it.
May 18th, 2006 at 8:53 pm
Raccoon, I think I get it now, what you’re saying, but I still don’t agree.
And hey, I was in Nacha”l Rangers - we didn’t have women in our unit back then (I think we do now).
I have no idea what that is, maybe you can help me out?
But US Marines are the gold standard for physical conditioning in the US military. If you ever worked with marines, you know that first hand
But I have been learning Kung-Fu for many years with women and teaching Kung-Fu to women for years - and women fight just as well as men.
Full contact? Because I started Tae Kwon Do when I was 6 years old, and by the time I was 10 I used to be able to beat grown men sparring. But I highly doubt I’d have been able to beat those guys (or even come CLOSE) in a real fight. In fact, it’s not something I merely doubt. 10 year old boys don’t beat grown men, outside of the movies.
Especially since they have one less organ that can be torn off to induce pain
Well, here’s something we can agree on
May 18th, 2006 at 8:57 pm
Raccoon: +1 on the women fighting, for the most part. If I was in a firefight, I’d be more interested in how well the person next to me shoots than whether that person’s sex organs are on the inside or hanging on the outside. The only place women are going to have a difficult time doing the job is with elite special forces. SAS, SEALs, Delta Force, etc. Those guys are chosen because they are supermen. A guy that can be a superman is rare enough. I know that there is a woman somewhere who can be a superman (plumbing not considered), but she doesn’t know of any others like her, I’d bet.
eee,
Are you saying that putting panties on a guy’s head and making guys strip and lay on the floor is worse than militant psychopathic zealots sawing the heads off people?
If so, I beg to differ.
May 18th, 2006 at 9:27 pm
Craig -
Riot police/troops win because they are better organized and better equipped. Not much you can do against a shield wall + tear gas… but you can avoid capture by breaking some arms and running really fast.
And yes, women do defeat men in full contact (from experience). There is a difference between the physical disparity of a grown man and a 10 years old boy vs. man and woman of equal age and weight. I have been soundly defeated by women in sparring before (our nice white body armor turned brown with blood after a year of use. Had a brutal teacher, thank Eris
). As I said, I believe it is more a question of will and societal conditioning than anything else.
Nacha”l Rangers is the Rangers elite of Nachal batallion of IDF… something like the equivalent of Green Berets, I think, with more brains
Our function in times of guerilla warfare is covert ops behind enemy lines, mostly. In general warfare we scout and destroy heavy armor by default. Never worked with US Marines, unfortunately - I would have loved to do a joint wargame exercise… but it’s all behind me, I am fortunately no longer a military Raccoon 
If you would like to discuss the issue of gender differences as relating to warfare, I’d love to do it - I have a view on this not dissimilar to Heinlein’s
Unfortunately I was not able to get my paws on any relevant researches lately, and have misplaced the ones I have read back in my army days. Do you know of a more appropriate place for such a discussion?
To conclude - it’s good knowing strong women, it gives one hope for humanity. I got initially riled up about this because a friend of mine told me that she used to have an abusive husband. And she was a HUGE hunam - this naturally muscular Viking woman from UK - that could have probably crushed my head between her hands. I was in shock that anyone other than a Sumo wrestler could have actually beat her up, and started exploring the issue… one of my pet peeves with hunams in general and women in particular
May 19th, 2006 at 1:33 am
To Sean Shalor and others who feel strongely about islam,l I think you should do some reading, acedemic i mean, and learn something about the religion, its history, the people, etc…
I knew nothing about Islam until I picked up a great little read: the short history of Ismal by karen armstrong http://www.phoenixpress.co.uk.
Its a “excellent antidote to prejudice”– financial times.
I only say this because the majority of bloggers here are non muslims. You seem to feel strongely enough to regularly visit and comment in this site, so I thus safely assume such a book, or acedmic reading in general, would aid you further in these endeavours…
My opinion: its pretty poinntless wasting time and energy commenting on a subject you know very little about.
Go do some reading.
May 19th, 2006 at 1:45 am
for those who like to read:))
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0679640401/102-2655160-9078528?v=glance&n=283155
May 19th, 2006 at 2:17 am
Dom,
I only say this because the majority of bloggers here are non muslims. You seem to feel strongely enough to regularly visit and comment in this site, so I thus safely assume such a book, or acedmic reading in general, would aid you further in these endeavours…
That may be good advice, Dom, or it may not… I guess it depends on people’s own viewpoints. I (personally) judge Christians by what they do and by what they say, and I can’t think of any reason not to judge muslims the same way. What good does an academic look at scripture and history do, if it’s not what people practice? Somebody would have to be a tremendous fool to think a majority of Christians lived their lives according to the teachings of Jesus. And I say this as a Christian. I’ve learned a lot about Islam the last couple years, and I’m sure I’ll learn a lot more. But nothing I’ve learned explains much of what I see muslims actually DOING and actually SAYING. Look at that hateful bigot “AngryLibyanAmerican” for instance. Do you know what he said on Highlander’s blog about Alaa and the other protesters who were arrested in Egypt? She removed the comments, but I saw them before she did. He said they deserved to be tortured and to have… er…. deviant sex acts… performed on them. In fact, he said all Copts deserved this fate. And also “traitors” like Sandmonkey, who he mentioned by name. Now look at him in this thread. So angry about this cop beating this woman that he wants to go to Egypt and burn down a police station. Is this guy schizophrenic or what? Maybe he’s just roleplaying (badly) but I’ve said repeatedly that I consider him to be an atheist, because he doesn’t behave like anyone who believes in the same God I believe in. I’m giving muslims the benefit of the doubt on that asshole, but there are many less extreme versions of him floating around blogs that I read.
Incidentally, I’m not on the side that thinks Islam is at fault on this one.
May 19th, 2006 at 2:36 am
Raccoon,
And yes, women do defeat men in full contact (from experience). There is a difference between the physical disparity of a grown man and a 10 years old boy vs. man and woman of equal age and weight.
Male muscle tissue is denser than female muscle tissue. A woman of equal age, weight, height and condiditioning wouldn’t even be close to the same strength as the man you were comparing her to. Although I have to admit I’ve seen some women down at the gym who really surprised me. Maybe it’s not a constant, but a variable. I’d have to brush up on my biology to answer that one
Nacha”l Rangers is the Rangers elite of Nachal batallion of IDF… something like the equivalent of Green Berets, I think, with more brains
Brains? Well, there’s the damn problem right there! I’ve been talking about Marines
The US Army has rangers as well. They are special ops troops, but not special forces (which is what the Army’s “Green Berets” are) but most Special Forces guys are recruited out of the Ranger Batallions. Our special ops guys like to think they have brains, by the way! I know, because they told me so! It’s Marines who are famous for their brute force approach to problem solving.
Our function in times of guerilla warfare is covert ops behind enemy lines, mostly. In general warfare we scout and destroy heavy armor by default.
That actually sounds like Marine “Force Recon” more than anything else I’m familiar with. The recon batallions were called Raider Batallions in WWII but the name became politically incorrect.
Never worked with US Marines, unfortunately - I would have loved to do a joint wargame exercise… but it’s all behind me, I am fortunately no longer a military Raccoon
Ok, now I have no idea what Raccoon means… I feel like an idiot. Am I supposed to know these things!?
It’s all behing me too, I served in the 80s, probably even before your time
No, I don’t know of a better place for such discussions except maybe one of the milblogs? They tend to become pissing contests, but maybe an IDF guy wouldn’t be dragged into that
May 19th, 2006 at 7:28 am
Dom and Craig. whatever ur perspectives are I’m glad there are people like you out there. Constructive in their criticisms and not spreading anger and hatred.
Greetings,
Drima
May 19th, 2006 at 7:45 am
99. Gadfly Says:
You blamed Islam for the police brutality. You’re wrong, and you’re a dickhead.
How wonderful it would be Mr Gadfly if life divided so simply.
I pointed to a connection between a society which legally employs significant judicial violence, and the effects upon individual members of it. As you probably know, Islamic states generally practice a range of legal physical punishments but that is not the case in most western countries There is nothing judgemental about that statement, it is merely a fact. Obviously, the consequences of this “difference” are considerable and may be argued about - but it is a very big subject and signally rather too much for this audience of folk who, like you, prefer their philosophy in one-liners.
It is interesting to note that your website:
dopaminedreams blogspot com (put the dots in the spaces) carries pornographic pictures of naked young women being beaten and involved in (apparently) enforced sexual intercourse, subtitled with the usual grunting wanker-speak.
There is some political comment, (”Besides being politically idiotic, that’s just a fat fucking lie.”) whilst the rest is taken up with your boring juvenile military fantasies culminationg in the immortal line … “Shit, I could replay the guy’s skull exploding in my scope as a pleasant thought to help usher me gently to sleep at night.”
Clearly the “dick” is a big item in your consciousness - leaving room for little else. Your “shock and compassion” engendered by the unpleasant event of this thread, seems more like thinly disguised envy. You are a sad, dreary stereotypical perv.
May 19th, 2006 at 7:55 am
105. Dom (May 19th, 2006 at 1:33 am) Says:
“To Sean Shalor and others who feel strongely about islam, l I think you should do some reading, acedemic i mean, and learn something about the religion, its history, the people, etc…”
Dom,
Thankyou very much for your advice. I have read many books on this subject as a necessary precursor to several visits to Islamic countries where I spent periods of time involved in aid programs. I really can recommend a visit (or two). Books are a help but there is nothing like seeing the reality and believe me, whatever you can do would be of help in many places. You’d find the folk you encounter at the working level to be a whole lot nicer than you might expect (sic).
May 19th, 2006 at 12:07 pm
Craig Hello back at ya
I disagree with your comment. The soldiers who abused prisoners in Abu Ghraib didn’t get enough punishement plus the top leaders who ordered the abuse are lose.
As far as the Israeli prisons I think you are either uniformed or you haven’t read much before you made your comment. I watched an Israeli intelligent agent myself on TV describing the torture methods of arabs in Israeli prisons. You also need to search and read documents on ex prisoners to tell you the torture horrors they had to face.
On a personal note I have a distant relative who currently lives in England and he spent 15 years in the Israeli prisons, he is a journalist in a very famous British newspaper. Nobody speaks of lies Craig and you need to check out some facts before you even hint to lies.
Now let me ask you this. Have you known anyone who went to an Israeli prison? Have you been to Israel? Have you been to the West Bank? I highly advise you since you are such an advocate for the TRUTH to visit the West Bank and see and hear for yourself.
May 19th, 2006 at 12:09 pm
Karen,
Your comment presents sadly the most ignorant of all. You have no clue about what you are talking about and you sound very stupid. Go and get some education before you utter your BS online.
May 19th, 2006 at 12:24 pm
Craig,
Here are some links for you with some information
http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-atrocities-israelitorture.htm
http://sumoud.tao.ca/?q=taxonomy/page/or/26
http://www.miftah.org/Display.cfm?DocId=1797&CategoryId=21
May 19th, 2006 at 1:14 pm
Twosret - your judgement is clouded by hatered. The sources you cite as “proof” are nothing but Media Jihad websites (and ones of them is by definition an anti-Semitic site). Since one can and must lie for Jihad, they are proof of nothing but Media Jihad.
And regarding torture in Israeli prisons - pffffft. Torture (as in influction of physical pain) has long been discredited as information extraction method. It simply doesn’t do the trick. Stuff like sleep deprivation, exposure to loud sounds, various methods to bring about discomfort - these DO work. And if you equate pulling someone’s fingernails out to giving someone a really uncomfortable chair - well, then the Israelis (and all the bus companies in the world) are indeed evil torturers. The only issue which has some ambiguity to it is Khiam prison in South Lebanon, but it belonged to SLA (South Lebanon Army) and Israel had no direct control over what happened in there. And yes, there was REAL torture in Khiam, not just uncomfy chairs.
Now to something more personal - I am Israeli. I live in Israel. I know how the system works, I have friends who do their reserves service as prison guards - and there is no torture. There are, however, gang rapes of “fresh meat” by longer-incarcerated terrorists, which the prison authorities cannot stop. Yes, when we catch a bloody-handed terrorist, we beat the shit out of him - but the only other option is to kill him, so we’re doing him a service.
How is this relevant, anyway? “Jooooz and the Great Satan = evil, therefore the Umma is absolved of everything” argument?
Craig - a pissing contest is, I fear, inevitable
Can you recommend a milblog?
And if I am being unclear then the fault is entirely my own - I am freely transliterating military terms from Hebrew (or rather from IDFish, which is a seperate but related language
Peace out
The Raccoon
May 19th, 2006 at 1:41 pm
Listen Twosrat. I am anything but ignorant. I have spent 8 years at university and have two degrees in the humanities and in social science. I am afraid you and your mental twin eee are the ones who come off as majoring in ignorance brother!!
May 19th, 2006 at 2:08 pm
And I wouldn’t waste my time presenting you with the names, places and dates of all the honour killings that I have read about that took place in Arab/Musllim society. You, like eee, would ignore them and just present your own facts from unreliable sources. Your “society” is sick. Also, it is very impressive that your relative spent 15 years in an Israeli prison and came out well enough to tell everyone about it and practise journalism. Some torture he must have endured. I’d like to know who has come out of a Saudi, Algerian, Syrian etc. prison healthy after 15 years? Probably no one because they torture them to death there. So in my mind it is a big joke to compare Israeli prisons with Egyptian ones or with Abu Gharib-you dumb ass!!
May 19th, 2006 at 3:23 pm
Oh Sean, you wound me so. Imagine my surprise that a sniveling little whining cunt like you found my site disturbing.
Oh, and tossing up a bunch of garbage dialog does not camouflage the fact that you were unable to logically address my previous statement.
You’re toast.
May 19th, 2006 at 4:07 pm
118. Gadfly Says:
Imagine my surprise that a sniveling little whining cunt like you found my site disturbing.
Disturbing? Hardly. When my kids were 13 or so they used to snigger around that kind of stuff in the hope that the adults would be shocked. Mostly they grew out of it when they started getting serious with girls.
Just that with all your machismo stuff it provides an interesting insight.
you were unable to logically address my previous statement
“you’re a dickhead.”
Well that is because your assertion is not part of any logical structure, nor is it in any way proven. You see if you want to be able to prove, rather than merely assert something, you must make it a term in a syllogism in which you include evidential proof to support your deduction. If I were to merely say “No I’m not” then no logical deduction is possible, merely repetition.
Logic ? No I don’t think so. I can at least see why you were unable to follow my points and if you were half the man that you would like to be, you’d just admit so. But then, you have other fish to fry.
How about just agreeing to differ here ?
May 19th, 2006 at 4:08 pm
Hi Twosret,
Nobody speaks of lies Craig and you need to check out some facts before you even hint to lies.
I’m not accusing, merely making an observation. Even the BBC tells lies, as does CNN. When the BBC retracts the story claiming White Phosphorous is a chemical weapon and a Weapon of Mass Destruction (it’s actually a smoke munition) I might consider them to be credible again. Some things are just factually in error, and that’s one of them.
The problem with telling the “big lie” like that, is that the lie takes on a life of it’s own, and it becomes impossible to disprove, because “credible” sources have reported it as fact.
What I said had nothing to do with Palestinians. I could find 100 American blogs where the blogger is telling an outright LIE in today’s post, in about half an hour. People tell lies. That’s just the way it is.
May 19th, 2006 at 4:22 pm
Craig Says:
When the BBC retracts the story claiming White Phosphorous is a chemical weapon and a Weapon of Mass Destruction (it’s actually a smoke munition) I might consider them to be credible again.
WP - the arguments - 16 November 2005, 16:25 GMT
By Paul Reynolds
World Affairs correspondent, BBC News website
“So WP itself is not a chemical weapon and therefore not illegal.”
Just thought you might like to know.
May 19th, 2006 at 4:42 pm
Thanks, Sean… but did they actually retract the original story? Becaus ethe original story netted out to a charge of war crimes, and they further alleged an effort to cover up the “war crimes” by the US federal government, which elevates the false charge to one of Crimes Against Humanity. Not a small thing, in my opinion. This story set the blogosphere on fire, and there are STILL people repeating it. DO you have a link to that story? I’d like to save it for the next time some foaming-at-the-mouth blog commenter brings it up
May 19th, 2006 at 4:50 pm
DO you have a link to that story? I’d like to save it for the next time some
No - I just pulled that out of my news feed log (remembered I’d seen it somewhere)
May 19th, 2006 at 5:07 pm
Sandmonkey: I want to thank you for this blog. It is of unsurpassed benefit to those of us trying to understand the Egyptian mindset, as well as that of the Middle East. Don’t let the mindless trolls in your comments deter you in any way. I, for one, am very glad I found your site.
Everybody,
Once you figure out who the irrational trolls are, try not to engage them in dialog. Otherwise, you’re just feeding the trolls. Obviously, you can handle it however you want, I just think “don’t feed the trolls” is a good default policy.
May 19th, 2006 at 5:40 pm
Amen to that!
(and for the Muslems around: Inch’Allah!)
Although I have to admit, sometimes, AngryLybian’s disturbingly bizarre statements (there are no different interpretations in Islam - tell me, what Muslem scholars are you talking about - surely, they must be Infidels!) - hide a delicate humour, which often goes by unappreciated. :).
Ulysses.
May 19th, 2006 at 6:15 pm
Karen,
I lived in North America for 20 years and every society has it’s problems my original society might have problems that were hijacked by extremists but I lived peacefully In Egypt and we were never subjected to honor killings or Islamic humilation (as a Christian), My mother held a Judge role in the supreme court and she is well respected as a Christian woman.
The image you (and other ignorants on this board) are trying to portray of the Middle East is WRONG and you are ignorant no matter how many years you have spent in school to write the BS you first wrote. When you make stupid general statements that are based on few readings you must have been picking your nose in your history class. Go and read about Arab woman achievements before you throw your garbage online.
My original society currently might be sick but we always admit it. Unlike an airhead like you who thinks that their society is much better. For instance if you look at the American society the abuse of women and Crime rate and the humilation, how many teenagers are pregnant or on drugs? The kids who are killing each other in schools etc….
As per the UN women are abused all over the world dingo not just the Middle East. Where in my post did I encourage abuse or honor killings?
As for my distant relative you have no clue what he had to go through to be able to tell his story so shut up for now and take a hike.
May 19th, 2006 at 6:36 pm
Racoon,
A bloody terrorist is the terrorist who steal land and kill it’s people and mass grave them. A bloody terrorist is the one who use aggression and invade lands and name their streets with the original Terrorists.
You the Israelis have contributed to terrorism from day one more than any Palestinians. As long as there are people like you in Israel there will be no peace because if you do injustice to people and expect them to take it you will never achieve peace.
Cough up the land and stop your Nazi attitude and then you will find peace.
May 19th, 2006 at 6:42 pm
Craig,
I don’t know why you are going in circles about this LIE business. If we assume that everything is true if it is documented let me tell you then that there will never be truth
Why does the word “lie” was brought up by you in the first place? what does that have to do with the Abu Ghraib prison? or the Israeli prisons?
Why does it hit a nerve so much when Abu Ghraib is brought up or the Israelis torture in prison brought up? did we reach that extent that arabs can’t point out some resemblence even if it is true without being called Haters by someone like Racoon and others?
Is it because some arab Twosret saying that the clip remind me of Abu Ghraib? or Israeli prison the word lie has to be brought up?
How many American officers were punished by the way in the Abu Ghraib scandal and how long will they spend in prison?
Please tell Karen to get more educated about who Twosret is so she wont call me brother again lol
May 19th, 2006 at 6:55 pm
SM,
I posted this before and I would love for you to make it part of your template heheheeee
but this time I’m posting it for the big fat Racoon 
this is the list of UN resolustions against Israel up to 1992 onloy
A list of UN Resolutions against “Israel”
* 1955-1992:
* * Resolution 106: ” . . . ‘condemns’ Israel for Gaza raid”.
* * Resolution 111: ” . . . ‘condemns’ Israel for raid on Syria that killed fifty-six people”.
* * Resolution 127: ” . . . ‘recommends’ Israel suspends it’s ‘no-man’s zone’ in Jerusalem”.
* * Resolution 162: ” . . . ‘urges’ Israel to comply with UN decisions”.
* * Resolution 171: ” . . . determines flagrant violations’ by Israel in its attack on Syria”.
* * Resolution 228: ” . . . ‘censures’ Israel for its attack on Samu in the West Bank, then under Jordanian control”.
* * Resolution 237: ” . . . ‘urges’ Israel to allow return of new 1967 Palestinian refugees”.
* * Resolution 248: ” . . . ‘condemns’ Israel for its massive attack on Karameh in Jordan”.
* * Resolution 250: ” . . . ‘calls’ on Israel to refrain from holding military parade in Jerusalem”.
* * Resolution 251: ” . . . ‘deeply deplores’ Israeli military parade in Jerusalem in defiance of Resolution 250″.
* * Resolution 252: ” . . . ‘declares invalid’ Israel’s acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital”.
* * Resolution 256: ” . . . ‘condemns’ Israeli raids on Jordan as ‘flagrant violation”.
* * Resolution 259: ” . . . ‘deplores’ Israel’s refusal to accept UN mission to probe occupation”.
* * Resolution 262: ” . . . ‘condemns’ Israel for attack on Beirut airport”.
* * Resolution 265: ” . . . ‘condemns’ Israel for air attacks for Salt in Jordan”.
* * Resolution 267: ” . . . ‘censures’ Israel for administrative acts to change the status of Jerusalem”.
* *Resolution 270: ” . . . ‘condemns’ Israel for air attacks on villages in southern Lebanon”.
* * Resolution 271: ” . . . ‘condemns’ Israel’s failure to obey UN resolutions on Jerusalem”.
* * Resolution 279: ” . . . ‘demands’ withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon”.
* * Resolution 280: ” . . . ‘condemns’ Israeli’s attacks against Lebanon”.
* * Resolution 285: ” . . . ‘demands’ immediate Israeli withdrawal form Lebanon”.
* * Resolution 298: ” . . . ‘deplores’ Israel’s changing of the status of Jerusalem”.
* * Resolution 313: ” . . . ‘demands’ that Israel stop attacks against Lebanon”.
* * Resolution 316: ” . . . ‘condemns’ Israel for repeated attacks on Lebanon”.
* * Resolution 317: ” . . . ‘deplores’ Israel’s refusal to release Arabs abducted in Lebanon”.
* * Resolution 332: ” . . . ‘condemns’ Israel’s repeated attacks against Lebanon”.
* * Resolution 337: ” . . . ‘condemns’ Israel for violating Lebanon’s sovereignty”.
* * Resolution 347: ” . . . ‘condemns’ Israeli attacks on Lebanon”.
* * Resolution 425: ” . . . ‘calls’ on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon”.
* * Resolution 427: ” . . . ‘calls’ on Israel to complete its withdrawal from Lebanon.
* * Resolution 444: ” . . . ‘deplores’ Israel’s lack of cooperation with UN peacekeeping forces”.
* * Resolution 446: ” . . . ‘determines’ that Israeli settlements are a ’serious
* obstruction’ to peace and calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention”.
* * Resolution 450: ” . . . ‘calls’ on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon”.
* * Resolution 452: ” . . . ‘calls’ on Israel to cease building settlements in occupied territories”.
* * Resolution 465: ” . . . ‘deplores’ Israel’s settlements and asks all member
* states not to assist Israel’s settlements program”.
* * Resolution 467: ” . . . ’strongly deplores’ Israel’s military intervention in Lebanon”.
* * Resolution 468: ” . . . ‘calls’ on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of
* two Palestinian mayors and a judge and to facilitate their return”.
* * Resolution 469: ” . . . ’strongly deplores’ Israel’s failure to observe the
* council’s order not to deport Palestinians”.
* * Resolution 471: ” . . . ‘expresses deep concern’ at Israel’s failure to abide
* by the Fourth Geneva Convention”.
* * Resolution 476: ” . . . ‘reiterates’ that Israel’s claim to Jerusalem are ‘null and void’”.
* * Resolution 478: ” . . . ‘censures (Israel) in the strongest terms’ for its
* claim to Jerusalem in its ‘Basic Law’”.
* * Resolution 484: ” . . . ‘declares it imperative’ that Israel re-admit two deported
* Palestinian mayors”.
* * Resolution 487: ” . . . ’strongly condemns’ Israel for its attack on Iraq’s
* nuclear facility”.
* * Resolution 497: ” . . . ‘decides’ that Israel’s annexation of Syria’s Golan
* Heights is ‘null and void’ and demands that Israel rescinds its decision forthwith”.
* * Resolution 498: ” . . . ‘calls’ on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon”.
* * Resolution 501: ” . . . ‘calls’ on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops”.
* * Resolution 509: ” . . . ‘demands’ that Israel withdraw its forces forthwith and unconditionally from Lebanon”.
* * Resolution 515: ” . . . ‘demands’ that Israel lift its siege of Beirut and
* allow food supplies to be brought in”.
* * Resolution 517: ” . . . ‘censures’ Israel for failing to obey UN resolutions
* and demands that Israel withdraw its forces from Lebanon”.
* * Resolution 518: ” . . . ‘demands’ that Israel cooperate fully with UN forces in Lebanon”.
* * Resolution 520: ” . . . ‘condemns’ Israel’s attack into West Beirut”.
* * Resolution 573: ” . . . ‘condemns’ Israel ‘vigorously’ for bombing Tunisia
* in attack on PLO headquarters.
* * Resolution 587: ” . . . ‘takes note’ of previous calls on Israel to withdraw
* its forces from Lebanon and urges all parties to withdraw”.
* * Resolution 592: ” . . . ’strongly deplores’ the killing of Palestinian students
* at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops”.
* * Resolution 605: ” . . . ’strongly deplores’ Israel’s policies and practices
* denying the human rights of Palestinians.
* * Resolution 607: ” . . . ‘calls’ on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly
* requests it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention.
* * Resolution 608: ” . . . ‘deeply regrets’ that Israel has defied the United Nations and deported Palestinian civilians”.
* * Resolution 636: ” . . . ‘deeply regrets’ Israeli deportation of Palestinian civilians.
* * Resolution 641: ” . . . ‘deplores’ Israel’s continuing deportation of Palestinians.
* * Resolution 672: ” . . . ‘condemns’ Israel for violence against Palestinians
* at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount.
* * Resolution 673: ” . . . ‘deplores’ Israel’s refusal to cooperate with the United
* Nations.
* * Resolution 681: ” . . . ‘deplores’ Israel’s resumption of the deportation of
* Palestinians.
* * Resolution 694: ” . . . ‘deplores’ Israel’s deportation of Palestinians and
* calls on it to ensure their safe and immediate return.
* * Resolution 726: ” . . . ’strongly condemns’ Israel’s deportation of Palestinians.
* * Resolution 799: “. . . ’strongly condemns’ Israel’s deportation of 413 Palestinians
* and calls for their immediate return.
May 19th, 2006 at 7:24 pm
So what!? The U.N. is hardly fair or unbiased when condemning Israel. Didn’t the s.m. just have a post suggesting we abolish the U.N.? The U.N. is a joke and so are their resolutions. They mean nothing to anyone with half a brain ( let alone a whole one-both of which would exclude you twosret).
May 19th, 2006 at 7:29 pm
Twosret, why don’t you address honour killings? Don’t just ignore the topic. They do exist. Do a little research, dimwit.
May 19th, 2006 at 9:16 pm
Hey there Twosret,
I consider that list of UN resolutions to be an example of the UN’s hypocrisy. There should be a thousand resolutions against Saudi Arabia for violating the human rights of people in Saudi Arabia. For denial of the basic human right “Freedom of Religion” alone. It’s freaking ILLEGAL to be anything but a muslim in KSA… how much more obvious could a human rights violation be?
Yet, how many resolutions condemning KSA are there?
If the UN was playing it strait, there’d be resolutions condeming human rights violations by the dozen, for every country in the middle-east. Not just Israel. The UN is crooked, and you just provided the proof.
Anyway, I don’t want to talk about Israel/Palestine. I don’t want to talk about the UN. I’ve given up hope on both, a long time ago. I gave up on the UN in 1983, and gave up on a peace between Israelis and Palestinians about the same time.
I don’t know why you are going in circles about this LIE business.
Because it bugs me!? I’ve been told several times (on blogs) that events I was actually PRESENT for, didn’t happen. Or that they happened in a way that doesn’t even remotely resemble what I saw with my own eyes. Do you have any idea how infuriating it is to have somebody tell you something like that, in complete seriousness?
If we assume that everything is true if it is documented let me tell you then that there will never be truth
Why does the word “lie” was brought up by you in the first place? what does that have to do with the Abu Ghraib prison? or the Israeli prisons?
I brought it up in regards to the accusations you made against Israelis. Why? Because I’ve seen Palestinians lie about stuff. Do you want me to point out some Palestian blogs, where the bloggers are liars? I can, and I’ll even point out examples if you wish. And I’m talking about lies they tell about America.
Why does it hit a nerve so much when Abu Ghraib is brought up
It doesn’t. Do you think I support the abuse of prisoners, or something? Have you ever seen me defend Abu Ghraib? I even broought up the worst case of abuse by American police that I know of, the Rodeny King incident. If you want to talk about abuseby Americans, I’ll be happy to do that. I don’t much like abusive cops, or abusive troops either, for that matter.
Is it because some arab Twosret saying that the clip remind me of Abu Ghraib? or Israeli prison the word lie has to be brought up?
Do you think I only accuse Arabs of telling lies? The example I used was of Italian and British journalists telling lies.
How many American officers were punished by the way in the Abu Ghraib scandal and how long will they spend in prison?
The commanding general was relieved of command and forced into retirement. Most of the other officers were kicked out of the military. The only people in prison are the actual perpetrators, which is how our system of justice is set up. I’m sorry if you don’t like it, but the system worked as intended.
Please tell Karen to get more educated about who Twosret is so she wont call me brother again lol
Eh, I think you can take care of yourself :p
May 19th, 2006 at 9:27 pm
By the way, Twosret, as I’ve said many times on blogs re: Abu Ghraib, if it was up to me those people would have been charged with war crimes. The penalty for war crimes is death. The Toguba report seems to support rape and torture charges which are both war crimes. when committed under those circumstances.
But that’s not how it worked out. They were only charged with abusing and mistreating prisoners. But at least they WERE charged, and convicted. That EGyptian cop never will be, I bet you.
May 19th, 2006 at 9:34 pm
Karen,
They do exist so is other crimes in this world Ms. I know it all. I’m not denying them, I condemn them not like you living in your perfect little world and looking down on other societies and calling it “sick”. The topic wasn’t about honor killings the topic was about abuse of force from police etc…
I love it when we use the UN when we want and trash it when we want. I don’t care what SM thinks of the UN it is up to him to make up his own mind.
I don’t need to do research on honor killings Ms. 8 years of college and two degrees. At least I’m a dimwit that doesn’t generalize and speak out of ignorance and portray an image of the M.E. that is false and untrue because I’m being RACISIT and HATEFUL to one religion and riding on the wave of Anti-Islam. I’m a dimwit that learned in my school in the Middle East tolerance and I understand that there is no such a thing as bad religion and sick societies.
I need to call your college to refund you for the money you spent on your education because obviously you learnt nothing but Racism.
May 19th, 2006 at 9:41 pm
Craig,
I don’t believe that the UN is biased when it comes to Palestinians I have first hand experience and proof of some of those UN resolutions. Live examples of it so it is up to you to think that it is crooked or whatever. As for KSA and human rights you must have read something I wrote before about this because I can’t believe you didn’t read what I think of it
One more thing you need to understand that Americans do lie too and they lie on their blogs about arabs and they speak out of ignorance and racism not just Palestinians or Israelis or Italians bloggers. Anyone can start a blog and lie my comment about Israeli prisons are not a lie and I can assure you that torture happens there all the time and being a relative of one of the prisoners I speak out of experience.
I think we know each other well enough by now to know that I try my best not to speak out of rumors.
May 19th, 2006 at 9:50 pm
Craig,
There has to be resolution also against women abuse in the US and UN resolution against the false war on Iraq and UN resolution against the secret prisons of the US all over the world.
So the UN is also biased against arabs when 100’s of thousands die in Iraq because of NO WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION IN IRAQ and the invasion of the US should have never happened. Let us ask our American Gov. who supported you with the information that there is a WMD in Iraq, write to your senator and demad it and when you get your usual format letter, check out the internet and some reliable sources and it will tell you which country in the World supplied the US with the WMD reports on Iraq and if it is not Israel I will not blog again ever!!!!!
Yeah and while we are at it let us urge the UN to make a resolution against the mal function of the bra of Janet Jackson
May 19th, 2006 at 9:58 pm
Sorry, I never found any use for the U.N. And as for getting a false idea about the middle east, it is people like you and eee and those human bombs that give me my ideas about the m.e. So if you don’t like what I think than shut up Mr. my Christian mom is a Judge!! Who cares what your mom is. And the reason I brought up honour killings is to provide more evidence about the misogyny that exists in the m.e. and Islamic society. The hatred of women was not brought up by me.
May 19th, 2006 at 10:16 pm
Again a narrow minded response from the ignorant Karen. The reference to my mother was to show an example of women in Egypt. If you got your idea about the M.E. from me, eee and the human bombs that only confirms how ignorant racist and a mind terrorist you are.
The terrorist Israelis out there killing Palestinian women and children with Apache’s remind me of your likes people who are blinded by hate and racism and warmongers.
I’m through with you and I better spend my time with someone with better I.Q.
May 19th, 2006 at 10:19 pm
Twosret, ignore this idiot she is a scum bag.
May 19th, 2006 at 11:00 pm
Karen, twosret is female. Just FYI.
May 19th, 2006 at 11:53 pm
Thanks Craig, but she sounds like a guy!! I’m glad your through two. I don’t like you either.
May 20th, 2006 at 5:01 am
Sorry guys but I really hate to say this. The UN is hypocritical but isn’t the US too?? Yes KSA is full of crap but you still fail to see that KSA is America’s best friend whether you like to admit it or not.
Politics is a dirty game EVERYWHERE and unfortunately that includes the US too
May 20th, 2006 at 1:34 pm
> I am anything but ignorant. I have spent 8 years at
> university and have two degrees in the humanities
> and in social science.
Impressive, but your rants here simply show, that a moron
with 8 years in university and two degrees remains a moron.
Having a degree doesn’t protect its owner against being a
pathological racist, colonialist and/or outright liar.
1. Morons may stay forever in univerity, but
May 20th, 2006 at 2:14 pm
And your rants show that you are a moron with no education! And twosret’s rants show that there are some people soooo dumb that they believe that if they don’t know about something, it means that it didn’t happen. Stay in your little cocoons and keep blaming your sick societies problems on Israel if it will make you happy. Don’t look within for the answers-it may be too scary for you.
May 20th, 2006 at 3:24 pm
I think one would have to be sick in the head to beat a women. I have seen a Islamic dude on a video show the correct way to beat a women and I have read verses in the Koran pertaining to this subject so I can understand why Sean would suggest Islam as the culprit.
May 20th, 2006 at 5:01 pm
LOL! I go on a brief holiday with my wife and look what I find when I come back
Twosret:
Put these UN resolutions into their proper context (i.e. Arab League resolutions, lack of resolutions regarding Islamic states). You will easily see that they are nothing but attempts to destroy Israel using not only brute force but politics and propaganda. And lemme give you a hint… neither worked nor will work.
Next - regarding honor killings etc. Growing up I was working with Israeli Arabs (of all kinds of backgrounds - most were, IIRC, the grandchildren of North African and Syrian immigrants, but some were proper “Palestinians”). About half of my friends back in those days were Israeli Arabs. And most of them lost my friendship after one night we were talking about sex and such, and I heard their views about women and what they’d do to their sisters if the latter would fuck around. The only one that remained my friend disagreed with them, has succesfully completed his studies in the Hebrew University and now works for the UN (yes, yes, we are evil Joooooz and a dreadful terrorist Apartheid state, blah blah).
Moreover, you failure to address ANY of the points I made regarding prisoner abuse etc clearly shows your lack of desire for an actual discussion (which entails an exchange of ideas or at least information).
Almost lastly: your comments along the lines of “terrorist Israelis killing women and children with Apaches” not only smack of ignorance and heavy brainwash - they are also personally insulting. I have risked my life for too long just so that we DON’T kill Palestinian civilians (who more often than not would happily kill us). Too many of my friends died in operations to extract a fucking murderous terrorist from his mother’s house where he was hiding under the skirts of his sisters - and they died so that these terrorist-harboring civilians won’t have to. Remember Black September? This is what we DON’T do, my brainwashed cousin. Maybe we should just so that you would have some sort of a reference. But we won’t.
And stealing land? Bah. I will not bother answering this BS directly - just advise you to read some actual (objective) history of Israel, Palestine, Syria-Palestina, Judea, Qna’an… and then some international law and examples of practice thereof. I know you won’t, so this is rather pointless - but if you will, we then can continue this lovely discussion.
As for me having a Nazi attitude - uhm… I know quite a bit about Nazis (much of my family died in the Holocaust, so I took some time studying the matter) and fail to see any notable parallels. Would you be so kind as to elaborate - but only after some research so that you actually know what you’re talking about?
And lastly… thank you, I am a great big fat Raccoon indeed! Mentally, at least…
Peace out.
May 20th, 2006 at 6:10 pm
> And your rants show that you are a moron with no education!
ROTFL. How do you know?
> And twosret’s rants show that there are some people soooo dumb
> that they believe that if they don’t know about something, it means
> that it didn’t happen.
It’s far worse with amnesians like you. Even when you’re told about
things that happened, you prefer not to “belief”.
Well - avg. amnesians are true believers - everybody knows that…
> Stay in your little cocoons and keep blaming your sick societies
> problems on Israel
What has my society to do with Israel - except that they back their
ehtno-fascism? Did I ever mentioned my society or any society at all,
except for the palestinians?
And is there any doubt, that european jewish fascists are the biggest
problem for the palestinians - not allah-eggs, honor killings etc..
> Don’t look within for the answers-it may be too scary for you.
Yes, you should really look at yourself. A nation of bigot racists and
massmurderers - from the Phillippines through Vietnam to Iraq - that
lives from the illusion to be blessed and thus “good” by definition.
Eat sand - and you’ll learn a lot.
May 20th, 2006 at 6:23 pm
> I have risked my life for too long just so that we DON’T kill Palestinian civilians
That’s the master race: They worked so hard to clean their country
from its native arab population - but they did everything possible
not to harm the civilians - except for 50.000 that somhow died within
that process, and some hundred thousands they made to leave their
homes to provide room for the new jewish blood-and-soil ideology.
And this hollow and moronic rethoric reminds me of Himmler, who
found it very hard to attend the slaughter of the jews in the death
camps - he feared for the sanity of his butchers, not their victims of
course - and praised them for doing their hard but inevitable job.
Zionazism.
May 20th, 2006 at 7:06 pm
That’s o.k. eee. Your inability to make sense shows me your lack of education, formal or otherwise. The content of what you write, when I can decipher it, tells me what society you come from. I can also read inbetween the lines, you Islamofascist.
May 20th, 2006 at 7:43 pm
eee -
again, your inability to relate to simple facts is a clear indicator of your bigotry. Let me put it in very very simple words so that it has a chance to get through the smokescreen in your brain: Had Israel had a mind to perform “ethnic cleansing”, there would be no Arabs in Israel. Very simple, yes?
I really wonder who worked so hard to indoctrinate you. Your mullah, perchance?
BTW, if your pretence of insanity is a joke, it is in a rather poor taste. But hey, whatever, hail EriS!
May 20th, 2006 at 10:37 pm
> Your inability to make sense shows me
Your incompetence after 8 years in a university plus two degrees is astonishing.
It wasn’t Harvard I guess.
May 20th, 2006 at 10:46 pm
> if your pretence of insanity is a joke
I never run jokes on plain fascists - especially not, if they are jewish.
Once you arrive in hell, you can exchange with these Nazis and discuss
with them about inferior races, blood-and-soil and the necessity of Lebens-
raum for the master race.
Israel and germany in 1936 have much in common.
May 20th, 2006 at 11:05 pm
Only in your teeny, tiny brain, eee.
May 20th, 2006 at 11:25 pm
eee,
It’s far worse with amnesians like you.
The implication of the word “amnesian” is that somebody knew the truth, and forgot it. That’s better, in my opinion, than somebody who has been indoctrinated with blind hate since childhood.
Even when you’re told about things that happened, you prefer not to “belief”.
Somebody would have to be a fool to pay attention to what a hatemonger says. People who are motivated by hate say the things they say to do harm, not to educate.
That’s YOU I’m talking about, in case you don’t get it yet. I’ve seen you comment 100 times on this blog. Every one of those comments was an insult to one of the other readers. Not a single thing you’ve ever said has been remotely productive, or added in any way to the discussion.
What has my society to do with Israel
What does an Egyptian cop beating an Egyptian woman with a whip have to do with Israel? I usually skip everything that comes after “eee” so I must have missed the part where you explained how the Jews were behind it?
As far as the Jews being like Nazis, you better hope that’s not true. The Nazies killed 6 million Jews in about 5 years. How many Palestinians are there in Israel? Less than 2 million?
May 21st, 2006 at 9:13 am
[...] The Egyptian Sandmonkey has some truly disturbing video of the sensitive, respectful way his local cops treat people. The US gives Egypt two billion dollars a year. Anyone care to tell me why? [...]
May 21st, 2006 at 3:54 pm
I read all of the posts, Sean. Every one. And you didn’t make a coherent case for the religion itself inherently supporting this kind of thing. As I said, I’m willing to consider that it does. But citing a few scholars isn’t the same as laying out the scriptural (i.e., religious) basis for your belief that Islam is inherently flawed. But if an invitation to do so is going to elicit only a personal insult from you (that I’m incapable or unwilling to read your ruminations spread out over 100 comments that somehow would cohere into an argument and that I’m using shallow rhetoric and pettiness to gun down your breath-taking insight), it isn’t sensible to reissue it. That’s too bad.
May 21st, 2006 at 5:26 pm
Curt… maybe I can help you with this (disregarding the irrelevancy of Sean’s remarks to this case).
Basically, there is a tremendous amounts of passages from the Quran which could apply to this case. I doubt that they do, but they could:
[9.34] O you who believe! most surely many of the doctors of law and the monks eat away the property of men falsely, and turn (them) from Allah’s way; and (as for) those who hoard up gold and silver and do not spend it in Allah’s way, announce to them a painful chastisement,
Maybe she hoarded gold and silver and did not spend it in Allah’s way?
[9.12] And if they break their oaths after their agreement and (openly) revile your religion, then fight the leaders of unbelief– surely their oaths are nothing– so that they may desist.
[9.13] What! will you not fight a people who broke their oaths and aimed at the expulsion of the Apostle, and they attacked you first; do you fear them? But Allah is most deserving that you should fear Him, if you are believers.
[9.14] Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace, and assist you against them and heal the hearts of a believing people.
Maybe she was a Christian that laughed about Islam?
As I said, there are numerous other examples of things for which people should be beaten, killed, tortured and so on and so forth in the Quran. And relating to the beating of women:
[4.34] Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.
I know that this relates (probably) only to domestic violence, but still - it’s a fascinating verse and one I am fond of.
Il-Allah el-Allahu-Muhammad rasul Allah (I am just saying that so that I would not be killed, you see). Hail Eris!
Peace out.
May 21st, 2006 at 6:11 pm
Curt Says:
May 21st, 2006 at 3:54 pm
I read all of the posts, Sean. Every one. And you didn’t make a coherent case for the religion itself inherently supporting this kind of thing … But citing a few scholars
Curt,
I am perplexed. I’ve never tried to make such a case, nor have I cited a single scholar! I don’t really understand your point.
Here’s what I said to someone else who missed the point …
I pointed to a connection between a society which legally employs significant judicial violence, and the effects upon individual members of it. As you probably know, Islamic states generally practice a range of legal physical punishments but that is not the case in most western countries There is nothing judgemental about that statement, it is merely a fact. Obviously, the consequences of this “difference” are considerable and may be argued about - but it is a very big subject and signally rather too much for this audience of folk who prefer their philosophy in one-liners.
In any event, I think it is probably time to agree to disagree.
May 22nd, 2006 at 12:30 am
> The implication of the word “amnesian” is that somebody knew the truth,
> and forgot it.
Amnesians are people who never learn anything, because they immediately for-
get. It’s kind of a disease, which makes them repeating their errors over
and over.
> That’s better, in my opinion, than somebody who has been indoctrinated with
> blind hate since childhood.
First you simply cannot know, if I was “indoctrinated” since childhood. It’s
simply a speculation based on your own prejudices.
Second, the assumption that critics - even very bitter ones - are driven
my “hate” tells more about your indoctrination than anything else.
My criticism is not based on emotions - hate - but on logic.
Example: If you take the right to kill 500.000 iraqi children for granted,
then you should not be surprised when I reason, that the Iraqis have the
right to kill 5.000.000 american children.
> Somebody would have to be a fool to pay attention to what a hatemonger says.
Then you are a fool - no doubt - listening to your government.
> People who are motivated by hate say the things they say to do harm, not to
> educate.
I don’t believe, that I’m able to educate you. The utmost I can try is to make
you look into the mirror.
> That’s YOU I’m talking about, in case you don’t get it yet. I’ve seen you
> comment 100 times on this blog. Every one of those comments was an insult
> to one of the other readers.
See it from my perspective. Most if not all comment here insult humanity and
rationality with their bigotry, their blatant racism and hypocrisy.
> Not a single thing you’ve ever said has been remotely productive, or added
> in any way to the discussion.
That’s not my fault.
> What does an Egyptian cop beating an Egyptian woman with a whip have to do
> with Israel?
A typical amnesian question. How often shall I repeat, that Mubarak is simply
a stooge of your government, who is kept in power - requiring whipping pro-
testors - because a democratically elected government would not continue to
sit on its hands, while their “brothers” get killed by the guys that claim to
part of a master race.
To be fair - the policy of your barbarian government would not be very dif-
ferent, is Israel simply didn’t exist. The Lobby is not the only reason, why
Mubarak is kept in power - that’s true.
> I usually skip everything that comes after “eee” so I must have missed the
> part where you explained how the Jews were behind it?
Now you know.
> As far as the Jews being like Nazis, you better hope that’s not true. The
> Nazies killed 6 million Jews in about 5 years.
The NAZIS did start killing them in 1933, when they came to power.
They started with stripping them from their rights as citizens of germany -
similar to what the NAZI Avigdor Liebermann wants -, imposed blatant racist
marriage laws on them - as recently established in Israel - and tried to
deport them - as Israel did several times in 48 and 67 - and tries to do
with its “fence”.
The point is - a jewish state in an arab country is and was impossible with-
out resorting to NAZI-methods.
And in the end it will only be possible by switching from a political geno-
cide - Kimmerling invented the term “politicide” for that - to physical geno-
cide.
> How many Palestinians are there in Israel? Less than 2 million?
Israel rules over appr. 5 million non-jewish palestinians.
The majority of them - more than 3.5 million - lives more or less outlawed in
three soon to be completed concentration camps, in which they had to die when
the master race closed their gates.
See bove,
May 22nd, 2006 at 3:51 am
eee - wow. The view through the fractured mirror that is your mind is really outlandish, eh? Sometimes I am amazed by the ability of a human mind to distort reality into strange and fantastic shapes. I still can’t help but feel that you ARE joking - because if you’re not, you’re in dire need of psychiatric aid (or, alternatively, are simply a horribly indoctrinated racist bigot that would leave the KKK in awe of your devotion to manifest nonsense). I am really, really impressed, though - I have discussed such matters with Hizbollah members and THEY were not as raving!
And the fact that you’re ignoring any refutation of your digital diarrhea exarcerbates the severity of either of the three options outlined above. Either way, keep up the good work. I, for one, am done with this - see you in the delectable lap of Eris, a maximum security insane asylum or on TV, on your post-suicide-bombing self-glorification tape.
Cheerio!
The Befuddled Raccoon.
PS
Don’t forget to mention the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, the Necronomicon, the Illuminati and the fact that the Evil Jews ™ are using the blood of Christian/Mulsim babies (have your pick) as ingredients in assorted holiday meals of the Evil Jews ™.
PPS
You know, I realized today that Evil Jews ™ and their evil state of Israel (funded and maintained by Adolf Hitler, who was a notorious Jew - the Holocaust fable is a mere attempt to cover that important fact up!) are also behind the recurring attempts to bring about the Elder Gods.
See, it all adds up - it is a well-known fact that the Tanach (which is the perverted version of a holy Muslim book, as we all know) is, among other evil things, a guide for summoning Cthulhu. A walkthrough, if you wish - and it is through Cthulhu that the Evil Jews ™ seek to complete the conspiracy outlined in the Protocols! The irrefutable proof of this is the great number of Cthulhu trees in Tel-Aviv - trees so twisted by the evil of the Evil Jews ™ that they resemble Cthulhu himself! And we all know that the Evil Jews ™ are also kidnapping Palestinian children for the purpose of sacrificing them to the Elder Gods. The Evil Jews ™ also use these children as raw material for the making of Deep Ones. (Side note: the sacrifices are not only Palestinian children. No child is safe, in fact, as long as the Evil Jews ™ continue with their Evil Ways!).
As you can see, the above evidence proves beyond doubt that the Evil Jews ™ are Cthulhu worshippers! Or possibly WarSheepers!
Yog-Sothoth Neblod Zin! Cthulhu na fhtagn!
PPPS
All hail EriS! Only She, in Her Endless Ineffability and Peculiarity, can save you from the Evil Jews ™! She can handle Evil Americans (or whomever the current Great Satan is), too!
PPPPS
All of the above is completely, absolutely, utterly and unreservedly true. So I swear by EriS Discordia and all her Profits!
July 20th, 2006 at 7:49 pm
[...] Gamal 3eid, lawyer for Sharqawi and Sha3er and the leftist director of the Arabic Network for Human Rights Information, issued a statement today, welcoming his clients’ release, but called up on the newly appointed Public Prosecutor to investigate the Qasr el-Nil officers who are involved in Sharqawi’s torture and put an end to police brutality; to curb the powers of State Security officers; and to release the Muslim Brothers prisoners of conscience. [...]
July 20th, 2006 at 9:08 pm
Disturbing video indeed, SM. Here are also two more videos of Egyptian police brutality, posted by Wael Abass of MisrDigital:
http://www.zippyvideos.com/8412934144726536/imbaba_police_1_hi
http://www.zippyvideos.com/6847531464726616/imbaba_police_2_hi
April 14th, 2007 at 10:57 pm
it is way way ay way way tooooo lllllllllllllloooooooooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnggggggggg! get the picture duh! make it shorter and maybee some more peopple will rread
May 29th, 2007 at 7:32 pm
fuck police egypt
July 25th, 2007 at 6:27 pm
Well can some one pls mail me videos like this. and videos or documents(need info on who wrote it and dates pls) of harmful rituals around the word that still exists today. for a example FGM.
I’m doing a project about human rites. and can use some help on it.
Thanks in advance…
Please E-mail to amigo_3gp@yahoo.com
July 28th, 2007 at 2:26 am
Way to Go You peice of shit.
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:06 am
hey that has nothing to do with isalm, how many innocent people did hitler killed, how many native Americans did white people kill, so that has nothing to do with islam and stop the stereotypes….
November 5th, 2007 at 11:27 pm
Well, time to bathe in Hamas blood again. Peace out.
January 5th, 2008 at 8:31 am
i bit yoiu are either christian or jewish
isnt that right !!!
so do not pretend that you cdare about the women more than your race !!
February 13th, 2008 at 3:00 pm
well I think that ur topic is excellent
I am an egyptian girl and I am not sure about what I’ve seen but at least I as an egyptian girl have never seen or heard about such things sooooo… I think it’s not fair to judge all egyptians as animals and judge the life in egypt as a mess
well i believe that maybe we are not as civilized as u are but at least we have democracy….
& by the way there are many religions in egypt not only Islam so even if that video was right so i think thats its not about muslims !!!!
we’re not classified here as muslims and christians but as egyptians and thats all
and I wish that that video is not true because we’re not really that bad
February 16th, 2008 at 4:11 pm
I just wanted to make one point clear: Egypt’s goverment and decree of laws are not Muslim based. Saudi Arabia’s is. Egypt is democratic.
April 17th, 2008 at 3:41 pm
lsn! I know for sure that this video is all true, being an egyptian i know all the scandals of our SECULAR government, so its got nothing to do with ISLAM