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May 31st, 2006 at 7:46 pm
you are definetly getting into trouble for this. don’t drag us with you to Tora (bora) prison, nice post though.
i see your point and although the boycotting egypt is a little bit too exteme it’s completly justified giving the current circumstances. a little arm bending from big brother
on a lighter note, any news on that paris hilton new sex tape?
May 31st, 2006 at 7:46 pm
Hi..
Good arguments and rightly said.
It is sad right now in Egypt & all other arab states that we do not have a plausible & serious alternative to the current ” Sick ” governments. The Arab world today resembles the Ottoman Empire at the end of WWI. We all know its dead but no one dares to declare it…. Because its comfortable.. it has been dead for decades…. no one dares to change ? It will be too radical for us & the whole world.
…
May 31st, 2006 at 7:48 pm
“I am not just asking the US State Department to suspend the $3 billion in annual aid sent to the Egyptian government. I am asking every person who reads this to not visit Egypt, not buy Egyptian products, and not invest in companies that invest in Egypt. I am asking you to completely boycott Egypt and everything Egyptian until this government stops silencing dissent.”
Well Sandmonkey, you know that I’ve always thought you’re a just a mercenary who’s trying to please certain people within certain circles in the us for your own personal gain while claiming that you’re looking for egypt’s best interests, but this call to boycott everything egyptian and your disregard for the ensuing misery for millions of already impoverished egyptians is way below being just an ambitious mercenary. I seriously don’t like to use big meaningless words like traitor or whatever, but if you’re not one, who would be, seriously, who would.
I hope your parents are really proud of you.
May 31st, 2006 at 7:49 pm
anyway i’d choose a boycott or suspending aid (as a mean of communication) any day over being bombed.
May 31st, 2006 at 8:24 pm
So I am a traitor now? Thanks Mo. And I assure you that my parents are probably more frightend than proud that their son will be next to get arrested and get sexually assaulted. How would your parents feel if that was the case with you? Oh, I forgot. You don’t have to worry about stuff like that. How is San Fransisco by the way? Great Wheather over there this time of year, no?
May 31st, 2006 at 8:29 pm
Mohamed
Did you ever think that there are patriots with different ways to reaching a better Egypt? I’m a liberal and I believe in free market,… with all differences I have with leftists or any other person with a different thinking, I would never call someone a traitor, even if I though that what they’re saying will affect Egyot in a bad way, everyone reaches their goals by a different method.
About the subject, Yes the USAID is directed to the government, even the tools the thugs use to oppress protestors are imported from the USA (according to the latest issue from Al-Dostour newspaper).
The Egyptian government has everything under their control, including investments, products, everything, most of the businessmen whom control the economy are a part of the Gang that’s ruling Egypt, just a different branch, so the already impoverished egyptians do not get a taste of those investments anyway, the rich people are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer, so yes about time the world stops pumping money in the gang’s pockets. This will be the only solution, they will have to make real economic reform to be able to run the country and feed the people, and that’s what we want right?
Anf for you and everybody: stop the whole: you’re a traitor if we don’t agree, because everyone gets called that, even people who love Egypt from the bottom of their hearts, it is just so third world, Nazi, communist, islamic thing!
Kefaya itself was called a traitor group, Ayman Nour, blogger Alaa Abdel Fattah, Sadat.
May 31st, 2006 at 8:34 pm
SM,
Asking people to boycott anything Egyptian isn’t a smart thing to do. Asking the US to stop helping Egyptians when you know that people are going to be hungry is not the solution. The change has to come from within. If only 40 million go out in the streets in Egypt you can imagine what is going to happen.
Egyptians can throw Mubarak out. Our over population crisis can come in handy in a situation like this.
I promise home made Jam and Challa bread in case of your arrest lol
May 31st, 2006 at 9:06 pm
Sandmonkey, I’m so proud!!! Good for you. Let me know of any media appearances, or reaction you get (I see you’re already getting some).
I’m going to link the piece on my blog later tonight.
May 31st, 2006 at 9:18 pm
SM,
If you think desposing of this regim is the solution for all of our troubles you’d better think again the MB’s will sweep to power and then the real troubles would begin.
Don’t get me wrong I’m not deffending this regime, but I truly think until a powerful secular power is available in the Egyptian political life the current regime is the best of the 2 evils.
May 31st, 2006 at 9:32 pm
Believe me bet, there’s nothing I hate more than being as melodramatic to parrot empty slogans about how we all love egypt or that someone’s working against the interest and well being of his own country (ie. traitor), because more often those who cry out such things are cheesy and superficial demagogues who’re using such accusations to instigate anger and outrage among simple minded people to further their own agenda (and that’s not only a third world thing if you know anything about how public opinion is formed and consent is manufactured in some of the most advanced and democratic countries in the world), but are we coming from different planets here? Are you that naive? What the monkey’s calling for is a form of collective punishment imposed on millions of egyptians just for the heck of it, it’ll only accomplish more misery and the end outcome will be either the government getting harsher and more draconian, or the worse might happen and the moslem brotherhood much more easily and quicker than thought, which I’m starting to think more and more that might be the sandmonkey’s hidden objective.
Thanks for asking about the weather in San Francisco SM, the weather’s always great here, perfect in the winter and a little bit cold in the summer :P, and by the way this makes my point more valid since neither me or my parents would be affected by your boycot, and also by the way I’ve never claimed to be brave or courageous at all (I’m just like you, trying to serve my own personal interests by hard work ligitimate means, but unlike you I’m not trying to hurt anyone in the proccess).
PS: A word of advice here, if you’re arrested and sexually assaulted, don’t tell anyone about it, try to be a hero like that Sharqawy guy and tell everyone about it and you’ll never get married.
May 31st, 2006 at 9:52 pm
Reminds me of the chicken vs. egg debate…..economic stability or political liberalism….There’s a price to pay to have one before the other….what the “right” chronology is for Egypt….I honestly have absolutely no clue….kudos to SM for trying….but I can’t help but find the thought of another starving child, or another untreated cancer patient, digest so easily….
May 31st, 2006 at 9:55 pm
A tip of the hat to you SM, as the masked avenger of civil liberties, the Zorro of Egypt. Pseudonym or not, you have grandes cajones.
May 31st, 2006 at 10:25 pm
Heartfelt and well-said, regardless of how one may feel about it.
Good luck in your efforts, my friend………….
May 31st, 2006 at 11:11 pm
I wish they all burn in hell.
Well-said SandMonkey.
Regards and God Bless.
May 31st, 2006 at 11:20 pm
Hey little brother, please take care….
Tse.
May 31st, 2006 at 11:31 pm
I can’t believe you would ask people to boycott Egypt. That ego-inflating gesture is not only extremely un-Egyptian but very irresponsible and counter-productive. We should be encouraging people to invest in Egypt. That way the Egyptian economy improves and more jobs fall in the hands of impoverished Egyptians. With more jobs and more oppurtunities, people will be drawn away from the allure of radical Islam and will become more educated and informed, thus more able to criticize the government.
Furthermore, more US aid is necessary to help support women’s rights programs in Upper Egyptian villages, co-operatives, small business incentives, etc. These are all programs that are necessary to improving the life of the common Egyptian and of improving oppurtunities for Egyptians. How will more oppurtunities harm Egypt and Egyptians?
Furthermore, we need more, not less, tourists to Egypt. Not only do they propel the Egyptian economy but the more interaction common EGyptians have with friendly tourists, the more tolerant Egyptians will be of Westerners, especially Americans and Israelis. The tourism business is Egypt’s chief link with the rest of the world.
Finally, how in hell do you think these moves, that will undeniably hurt Egyptians, will hurt he mubarak regime? It’s more than stable enough to handle aid cuts (money that doesn’t flow through the regime anyway) and a couple of pullout investments. Depriving Egyptians of economic oppurtunities, which is what you’re calling for, will hurt the naitonal economy, create more instability, make it necessary for bigger government and more government intervention, and increas the allure of radical Islam.
Your propositions are completely useless. I usually like what you have to say SM, but you really didn’t think this one through AT ALL. It was probably the single dumbest thing I’ve read on this blog. I just hope people are smart enough not to fall for your suggestions.
May 31st, 2006 at 11:52 pm
Exactly beast, well said.
June 1st, 2006 at 12:00 am
Have to agree with beast especially when it comes to the peaceful Egyptian people who would suffer from this.
June 1st, 2006 at 12:38 am
“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.” — Thomas Jefferson
I think that’s what SM’s trying to bring about. The only way people will bring about a change in the government is by getting them angry, and while it will be painful, if it leads to democracy, the cost will be worthwhile.
Go SM!
June 1st, 2006 at 1:28 am
Mohamed,
You can make a valid argument that an economic boycott would do more harm than good. However, you would be more persuasive if you didn’t resort to ad hominem attacks using terms like mercenary and traitor. Living in the States, I’m sure you’ve seen how public discourse has been eroded by the use of personal attacks in place of reasoned argument (Ann Coulter, are your ears burning?)
June 1st, 2006 at 2:23 am
Inta sohafee dilwaqti. My Arabic sucks.
June 1st, 2006 at 2:25 am
I agree Peter S, and I know that the more hostile rhetoric one uses the more the argument loses it’s validity, but what he’s suggesting just doesn’t make any sense, if he claims that he’s got the wellfare of egypt on his mind, how come he’s advocating the starvation, denial of medicine and denial of services in general to its people and the consequential deaths due to that (keep in mind that the sanctions imposed on iraq before the war resulted in 3000 deaths per month on average mainly due to malnutrition and lack of medicine, while Sadam’s rule was never threatened until 2003, so what if the same happens, would he be advocating invading Egypt?). And let’s assume for a moment that his suggestion resulted in a revolution that toppled Mubarak, if you know something about history then you’d know that the three great revolutions in history (the ones which are considered the model for revolutions, and on which other less significant ones are variations of them) are the french, bolshevik and the iranian revolutions, would you really want a replay of those three horrific events?
Now, I know the SM is smart enough to know all or most of what I’ve stated above, that’s why I think something doesn’t add up when he makes such suggestions.
June 1st, 2006 at 3:49 am
Great job. Stay out of trouble.
June 1st, 2006 at 3:52 am
Mohamed,
Please. We don’t want you in America. Even in San Francisco. Go back and be patriotic in your own country please. You seem like you make about as patriotic an American as Hugo Chavez would, so why are you in my country?
June 1st, 2006 at 4:39 am
[...] This is the link. He sets off an interesting debate in his own blog over whether a full boycott of Egypt is the right move for the outside world. [...]
June 1st, 2006 at 5:36 am
To all the people who are complaining about the boycotting statement:
It’s rather pointless.
Don’t worry, if Egypt continues to grow more economically & politically unstable nobody will want to visit or invest anyhow.
June 1st, 2006 at 6:12 am
*feels a nervous twitch coming on for Sandy*…
..
“PS: A word of advice here, if you’re arrested and sexually assaulted, don’t tell anyone about it, try to be a hero like that Sharqawy guy and tell everyone about it and you’ll never get married.”
Good thing there are women who are both capable of looking past such things and knowing that a person who has been abused is in no way a reflection of the abuse they received.
I wouldn’t stop loving someone or not marry someone no matter what abuses they had endured because it doesn’t change who they are one bit. GROW UP for g-d sake.
As for the boycott of egypt, at least it would be a more logically derived one than the freakin danish boycott. In Egypt, it IS the government that is doing these things.
Not that I buy anything egyptian on a regular basis that I could boycott it anyway, I buy all local items when I can. And mostly if I was going to buy something that was egyptian that I knew was egyptian, i’d be doing it to help the local egyptian businesses (we have some lovely ones!) since I doubt that buying from them really does anything for the Egyptian government anyway.
As for the Aid, however.. I have to agree that I don’t like my tax dollars going to support a government that allows the rape and abuse of peaceful protesters by the police themselves.
Lemme remind you all of how pissed off everyone in the Middle East was with Abu Ghrabe. So why is US abuse of prisoners an outrage and Egyptian abuse of prisoners something to ignore? Is it because you really do hold the Middle East to such a low standard? Is it really that the US *is* better than that so we should act like it, but Egypt isn’t?
Come on, Mohamed. WHERE’S THE FUCKING OUTRAGE when Egyptian police sodomize someone for wanting freedom?
Sandy is right. Something has to change, and it won’t change if nothing forces it to change. I, for one, don’t think that my government should be sending a penny to a government that does these things and feels no remorse whatsoever.
June 1st, 2006 at 6:23 am
Elengil, its not that we aren’t horrified by the treatment of Egyptian prisoners. We certainly are. But if you look at me and Mohamed’s points, cutting off aid and boycotting Egypt will have a tragic impact on the Egyptian people, one worse than the mistreatment of prisoners, which must end immediately.
Boycotting Egypt and depriving it economically and depriving the Egyptian people of oppurtunities will lead to two things.
1. With less economic oppurtunities,, radical Islam will look more attractive to countless Egyptians. I need not elaborate on the grave impact of such a situation. Plus, in Egypt economic troubles could lead to scapegoating. The likely vicitms? Copts and Jews.
2. The government will have to step in with subsidies and hiring more bureaucrats in order to stave off economic unrest and instability. Government power will have to increase to draconian measures, and more of Egypt will fall under more direct state control. Say goodbye to the free market and liberal reforms we’ve seen over the last few years.
I’m a fan of SM and his ideas, but the fact is that his plan on this occasion simply lacks sense. It’s not a coincidence that virtually every Egyptian who visits this blog is against this.
btw tommy, I resent your implication that MOhamed is an unpatriotic American. I was born in Los Angeles to Egyptian parents. I’m a patriotic American. I don’t understand how being concerned about the situation in your country of origin somehow detracts from American patriotism. Care to elaborate?
June 1st, 2006 at 6:34 am
Ya know, it’s times like these I just hate everything.
I hate having to try to balance and weigh between the lesser of two very great evils. I hate that doing the right thing isn’t always right, and that sometimes staying the same at least means things aren’t worse. I hate it I hate it I hate it.
/me cries
June 1st, 2006 at 8:19 am
I don’t know, I’m asking:
If some of the aid $ goes to promoting women’s rights, how much is it, and how does it help?
Maybe I’m dense, but it’s hard to see how spending money is going to change a cultural mindset - do they buy advertising, or pay attorneys for prosecuting abusers, or do some educational thing, or what?
If some of the $ goes to feed poor people, how much?
Couldn’t money be provided through channels that did not pass through the government? Because what most of us Americans feel is support for Egyptians, not for Mubarak and his government.
June 1st, 2006 at 11:15 am
hmmmm well u have some valid points in your article, and something must be done, but i definitely DO NOT agree with boycotting Egypt! i’m not a tree-hugging liberal, i’m a pragmatic, libertarian, capitalist, investment banker like u are, and belive in free markets and “voting with ur wallet” adn all that stuff however, we all know that the only people who r gonna be hurt by this r poor people who r already going through enough shit. hosny adn his posse will still be driving their mercedes and they’ll only compensate for this by decreasing annual raises for government employees, decreasing already paltry funding to public hospitals, etc etc. u can say stuff like this on ur blog because u (adn all of ur friends and blog readers including myself) r well-educated “rich kids” with our families’ money and our educations to fall baack on, but writing something like this in a widely-circulated magazine is pretty irresponsible, to say the least
June 1st, 2006 at 3:14 pm
Excellent post SM
I genuflect to the size of your balls. You must clank when you walk.
Be strong, but be careful.
June 1st, 2006 at 3:22 pm
Thanks again mideast beast, and yeah Tommy, please elaborate, or better yet don’t, you never make sense anyway.
June 1st, 2006 at 5:43 pm
Allright allright chaps, no worry, Sandmonkey has not -yet- been appointed as special adviser for W. on the mideast affairs, and I am afraid he’s not referred to as the most influential intellectual on Middle East policies. I never heard about treason of opinion before, nice one! death penalty as well? I can clearly see now why you’re so successfull at defending Freedom of expression. Of course keep bashing that bloody sandmonkey :-), but just don’t take it too seriously…
US won’t suspend their aid anytime soon and Mubarak is not really feeling any ‘tremendous’ pressure and has some chances of dying in office, the ‘alternative’ opposition will keep tearing MB apart whatsoever, the MB will keep wondering what to do, and all the merry egyptians will face their fate with humanism, courage sometimes and fatalism very often
June 1st, 2006 at 6:12 pm
R,
but writing something like this in a widely-circulated magazine is pretty irresponsible, to say the least
I don’t agree. Ending aid would de-stabilize Mubrak’s government more than anything else. If that’s what SM wants, then why is it “irresonisble” for him to say it? He’s not calling for sanctions. He just wants the US to stop funding a dictator.
June 1st, 2006 at 6:15 pm
MEB,
I’m a fan of SM and his ideas, but the fact is that his plan on this occasion simply lacks sense. It’s not a coincidence that virtually every Egyptian who visits this blog is against this.
It seems to me that I’ve been hearing complaints from Egyptians (on this blog and on others) about the US supporting Mubarak. SM is calling for an end to that support. What, exactly, is the problem? If Egyptians like the US support for Mubarak, why have they been saying the exact opposite for all this time?
Very confusing.
June 1st, 2006 at 6:16 pm
No Craig, he’s not only calling for cutting the us aid, he’s calling for total boycot of Egypt, government, country and people.
June 1st, 2006 at 6:40 pm
Craig, i don’t have issues with cutting teh aid, actually i think that’s a plausible idea, although i’d need to look up whre the aid goes first, but i completely disagree with teh whoel boycott idea! also, teh poeple here r poor enough and they’r still not revolting, making them even poorer really isn’t gonna help. also making them hate teh americans even more will only encuourage teh radicals. people here never revolt against tehgovernment. they’r roo used to running to the goevrnment for help. wehn teh stock market collapsed, people went to teh government to ask them to intervene and fire teh ehad of tehstock market, i mean how dependant is that?!!!
June 1st, 2006 at 7:25 pm
Mo,
No Craig, he’s not only calling for cutting the us aid, he’s calling for total boycot of Egypt, government, country and people
I didn’t read it that way. What you describe is called “sanctions” - not a boycott. The US has had unilateral sanctions on Iran since 1979. I can see why you’d be so upset if you thought that was what SM was suggesting. Sanctions are meant to actively do harm, which is much different than merely not helping.
R,
also making them hate teh americans even more will only encuourage teh radicals.
I agree ending the aid will help the extremists. Based on Sms previous postings, I think he believes that as well. I think he’s come to the conclusion that things will have to get worse before they get better in Egypt. I think he may be right. The Egyptian government could continue along the way it’s been for decades, with no end in sight.
I don’t agree with you that Egyptians will hate Americans more if we end aid. The aid has never helped the US with the Egyptian public anyway, as far as I can tell. In fact, as I already pointed out, many Egyptians seem to BLAME the US for all that aid money. Propping up dictators, and all.
America is not going to come out a “winner” with the Egyptian public, no matter what we do. There’s no point in going down that road.
June 1st, 2006 at 7:39 pm
Here’s his exact quote Craig,
“I am not just asking the US State Department to suspend the $3 billion in annual aid sent to the Egyptian government. I am asking every person who reads this to not visit Egypt, not buy Egyptian products, and not invest in companies that invest in Egypt. I am asking you to completely boycott Egypt and everything Egyptian until this government stops silencing dissent.”
June 1st, 2006 at 8:03 pm
I can’t agree with you on this , SM.
June 1st, 2006 at 8:36 pm
Mo, is there anything in there about imposing travel bans on Egyptians? Breaking off diplomatic relations? Siezing assets? Blockading exports and imports?
He’s calling for one governmental action: ending the aid.
And one volunatary action by American citizens: a boycott.
The boycott would be largely symbolic, and would have negligible effect (if any) on Egypt. That’s why I’m not paying much attention to that part of what SM said. No offense, SM… I think a boycott would just be a way for individual Americans to express their unhappiness, it’s not really going to do anything other than that, unless is what extended to corporations. But that wouldn’t be a boycott, that would be economic sanctions.
June 1st, 2006 at 9:57 pm
It’s enough the guy took the initiative to sit down and write something like this. It’s enough that he’s taking the risk at a time when it’s safer to keep your mouth shut and your head down. It’s enough that he’s DOING something, instead of watching from the distance. That’s all that should count right now, instead of meaningless drivel on technicalities. He’s trying to help his country. What are you doing for yours?
SM, I think this is a great article, as I’m sure you already know. Thank you for not giving up and for constantly working so hard on what you believe in, even if it’s doing something as simple as picking up a pen (typing on a keyboard!)
June 2nd, 2006 at 1:27 am
SM, I am indeed awed by the size of your cojones. I don’t think than an economic collapse in Egypt will bring about a positive change, though - and especially not a worldwide boycott of Egypt. Why not say “don’t give anything to the government, give it to the people”?
Hope you won’t be done in for this, akhi…
Peace out.
June 2nd, 2006 at 1:47 am
Well, I completly disagree with your premise…
Boycotts do not create democracies. An effective boycott would damage a country’s economy, similarly to sanctions. This means less jobs, runaway inflation, poverty, and destitution. If we want to promote democracy, we should empower people. Empowering people means increasing their awareness and advancing their social and economic situation, not making them poorer. Tourism, foreign investment and other economic and trade activity in Egypt create more jobs, and hopefully higher standards of living. The link between economic and social rights such as the rights to education, employment and healthcare, and civil and political rights has been established over and over since the adoption of the universal declaration of human rights. One set of rights leads to the other. A healthy, educated population is one that can stand for its rights to freedom of speech and freedom of assembly, which then makes it able to demand higher standards of health and education. Economic empowerment is vital to achieving political rights. And for this, the idea of an economic boycott is disastrous to the cause of democracy.
I wrote a bit more than this really, but didn’t want to clog your comment page. The rest if on http://bedaya.blogspot.com
June 2nd, 2006 at 12:46 pm
Craig,
“many Egyptians seem to BLAME the US for all that aid money. Propping udictators, and all” who on earth told u that teh average egyptian doesn’t want mubarak in power?! the “propping up disctors” stuff is teh opinion of us spolied rich kid bloggers, not teh average egyptian. THE AVERAGE EGYPTIAN JUIST WANTS FOOD ANd A ROOF OVER THEIR HEAD!!! they don’t care about democracy, revolution, or anything. sad but true.
look craig, i grew up in the us and i understand where u and teh other american readers r coming from. ur basic needs r more than met, even homeless peole can go to a homeless sehlter and get food adn a temporary roof over their heads but thinsg here r not like that. to understadn the average egyptian’s mentality, take a look at maslow’s hierarchy of needs. most egyptian r in teh first step of teh heirarachy, without their basic needs even met, how do u support a family of 5 with less than $100/month?!!! u tell them democracy, they’ll tell u screw that we want to life decent comfortable lives.
June 2nd, 2006 at 5:22 pm
Hi R,
I don’t understand the mentality of the average Egyptian, it’s true. All I know is that Egyptians don’t seem to like Americans much. I don’t know where it comes from, because I’ve become pretty good freinds with Egyptians here in the US over the years and I’ve never seen that hostilty that seems to be apparrent on the Egyptian street, in them.
But… it’s not really necessary for me to udnerstand the Egyptian public, is it? I spent a lot of time in the Phillipines in the 80s, and I seriously doubt that Egyptians are worse off than the average Filipino out in the provines. How many EGyptians are without running water? Without plumbing or electricty - without even the existance of phone lines or electrical wiring? This was all common, outside of the urban areas, when I was in the Phillipines. No idea what it’s like now, but I sincerely hope it’s better. Although, people who’ve never seen a televion don’t miss television much, I guess? I mean, humanity got by without modern conveniences for thosuands of years… but it’s just staggering to find large groups of people in this day and age who’ve just been left behind by the industrial revolution.
Anyway, despite being ruled by a dictator who was supported by the US (Marcos) I still remember Filipinos as the most friendly people I ever met. Egypt’s current problems are not just poverty… there’s more to it than that. Egypt is really not that bad off economically compared to many other places in the world.
But I guess I see your point. You’d rather maintain the status quo than have people who don’t care about politics suffering?
June 2nd, 2006 at 5:26 pm
R, you’ve said it in a nut shell.
June 2nd, 2006 at 6:27 pm
The point is the aid shouldn’t be politicized as a pressure point, or seen as a free pointless grant that is being given to Egypt.
We get this aid package, the second largest in the world they say, thanks to Sadat and the Camp David treaty. Undermining needed aid to Egypt would not only be harming Egypt and Egyptians but also undermining the very cornerstone of Middle East peace. Moreover it would only backfire in negative sentiments if this ever happened.
Craig, you couldn’t be more wrong in saying that Egyptians are unappreciative of American aid.
June 2nd, 2006 at 7:34 pm
I second Seneferu here Craig regarding the egypt-us relations on both the governmental and popular levels, it’s way more complicated than anyone whose not living in egypt would ever imagine and it’s never been a constant love love or love hate or hate hate relation, if you try to follow it since Eisenhower to Kennedy to Johnson to Nixon to Ford to Carter to Reagan to Bush to Clinton to Bush, you’ll find that attitudes towards the us differed as day and night, sometimes with highest regards and great gratitude towards the us in the case of Eisenhower and Kennedy and Carter, to a not so flattering view in the cases of Johnson and W. Even the strange anomaly of Nixon, who after ordering an airlift larger than the Berlin one to aid israel replenish it’s initial heavy losses in the October war, six months later he was in Cairo with almost the entire country waiting in line to greet him (check the June 24, 1974 issue of time magazine to see the magnitude of this reception, and it wasn’t staged by the way), my only explantion for that, was that the people thought let bygones be bygones just as long as we’re getting out of the soviet influence, that’s why I think that the statement of “they’re going to hate us no matter what we do” couldn’t be more wrong and misleading and self defeating.
June 2nd, 2006 at 8:45 pm
You and Seneferu may be right, Mo. I hope you are. But I notice most of your examples of times when Egypt wasn’t anti-US were prior to the US being actively involved in ME affairs. Nixon marked the beginning of the current US/ME relationship. Other than Iran, I think the US was pretty altrustic in the ME before that. Most of your examples also pre-date the rise of the Islamists in the ME as well. 1972 was the year the Israeli athletes were killed in Munich. I think it’s also the year that OPEC first embargoed oil to the US. Both things had a dramatic impact on the American public. I still recall them both clearly, and I was only 8 or 9 years old. And then all the plane hijackings started. Can’t really explain why Egyptians liked Carter… he’s much despised in the US as one of the weakest and most ineffective Presidents we ever had. I suppose the Camp David accords were his greatest success, but the hostage crisis in Iran was too large a failure to save his reputation. Hmmm… it’d be interesting to study, maybe. In the case of Carter and Clinton both, I see a lot of red flags when people in other countries like a US President more than Americans do… there’s something wrong whenever that happens
I didn’t actually say “they’re going to hate us no matter what we do” by the way
Is said something to the effect of “The US is not going to come out of this a winner on matter what we do” which isn’t quite the same thing. At least, I didn’t mean it that way.
June 2nd, 2006 at 9:28 pm
You’re right Craig about those times predating the rise of religious extremism, but I disagree that it was before the us’ engagement in mid east affairs, but more often this engagement was in a positive sense than a negative one ( most notable is Eisenhower’s strong and unequivocal ultimatum to england, france and israel to end their aggression in the suez), but those were also the days when the Arabists in the state department played a major role in keeping good faith in the mutual relation (refer to Robert Kaplan’s book The Arabists) and in articulating and understanding both points of view to and of both sides, until they were purged from the state department on stages starting with Kissinger’s tenure and ending with Albright under the supervision of Dennis Ross, leaving the state department’s mideast policy in it’s current state to be operated by ideolugues without a clue about the language, history or even a remotely correct perception of the mid east.
PS: One of the most popular ambassadors of any country in egypt was the us ambassador Frank Wizner in the early ninties (notice that this was after the rise of islamic extremism, which makes your argument not entirely true) but the guy was a down to earth arabic speaking street smart arabist who knew more about egypt than most egyptians even know.
PS2: You are so wrong about Carter :).
June 2nd, 2006 at 9:59 pm
Interesting paper here from George Washinton University, purporting to contain newly declassifed information.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB98/index.htm
Not sure what you mean about me being wrong about Carter. He was what he was. I was too young to vote anyway, I was 17 when Reagan kicked his ass in the 80 election
That paper claims the October war was planned by Sadat, in order to IMPROVE relations with Washington, and force Washington to intervene in the ME. It also says that the Soviets conducted a similar air-lift to supply the Syrians and the Egyptians, concurrent with the US air-lift. Nixon declared the situation a Cold War confrontation, with Israel being a formal ally in the Cold War. Game over.
Anyway, all I recall personally from that time period was the oil embargo (and the huge impact it had on the US - BEFORE the October War!!) and the Munich Olympics. I didn’t even know Black Spetember had murdered US diplomats. Reading all that stuff doesn’t make me feel any better about the ME. Past or present.
June 2nd, 2006 at 10:38 pm
Actually the oil embargo started after the war.
June 3rd, 2006 at 1:00 am
Mo, the claim made by Arabs at the time was that the embargo was in RESPONSE to US support for Israel during the Yom Kippur war. That’s an untrue statement. The embargo was planned in advance, long before anybody knew what the US would do.
June 3rd, 2006 at 1:14 am
Why would it be planned in advance? Wouldn’t make any sense. That’s the first time i hear that.
June 3rd, 2006 at 1:25 am
See the wikpedia link on the 1973 Oil Crisis, they also make the false claim that the Oil EMbargo was in retaliation for US support for Israel, when it was actually a preplanned act of economic aggression:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_energy_crisis
Later, the Yom Kippur War of 1973 galvanized Arab opinion. Furious at the emergency re-supply effort that had enabled Israel to withstand Egyptian and Syrian forces, the Arab world imposed the 1973 oil embargo against the United States, Western Europe, and Japan.
My friend (who is Arab) calls these the “good old days” but that oil embargo is what changed US policy towards the middle east. And it was deliberate :O
June 3rd, 2006 at 1:26 am
Mo, it’s there in that link I gave you before (the one that points to George Washington University). It makes perfect sense actually, when you read their synopisis and timeline.
June 4th, 2006 at 12:36 pm
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June 12th, 2006 at 11:40 am
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