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Wednesday, 7 Jun 2006
I saw the movie in Abu Dhabi with a jordanian friend I met at the Conference I was at, Khaldoon, who apprently is friends with both Ahmad, and the guy who owns Itoot. The middle east is the size of a baby's Pinky. Anyway…
The movie, for lack of a better way to put it, SUCKED HUGE DONKEY DICK! It was sooo boring. The excrutiantly painfull kind of boring. It was so boring that it's impossible to follow it if you were watching it on a DVD. It was soo boring, that there was a baby is a carriage 2 rows ahead of us, and for the 2 and a half houres the movie laster, it didn't cry once. And you know it's bad, when you keep wishing for the baby to start crying. Whomever called this a thriller has got to be kidding me. It's a 2 and a half hour long suckiness-fest!
But you know who really loved this movie? My Islamist friends. You know why? Cause it showed that Jesus was a man, and if jesus was a man, then that's Proof Positive that the Koran is right and that Islam is the one true faith. You know how did they prove that Jesus was a man? Well, a Tom Hanks movie said that Jesus was a man, and if a Tom Hanks movie said it, then it must be true.
Watch it if you want to, but know that you have been warned. IT BLOWS!
June 7th, 2006 at 8:56 am
I downloaded it via bittorrent. It blows! A few reasonable action sequences and a lot of pseudo-religious bullcrap. Waste of bandwidth, man!
June 7th, 2006 at 10:03 am
Yeah, I knew it would suck as it was reviewed as being even stupider than the book.
June 7th, 2006 at 12:26 pm
In all honesty,the book wasn’t that great either. It was fun to read, but not all that amazing. I am not surprised the movie blows.
June 7th, 2006 at 12:33 pm
I tried to watch it with some friends last friday on DVD, but they got bored after half an hour because they havent read the book. They couldnt comprehend what is going on because the consequence of events occur so rapidly with most of the information transmitted to the audience by the conversation of the 2 lead characters.
But, I did love watching it because I have read the book. It was nice seeing how they visualize it. People should definatly read the book before watching the movie.
You are right about the Mulims thing. I have wrote about this in my blog. I cant comprehend how some muslims who apparantly didnt read the book nor watch the movie are happy for banning this movie in Jordan!! As you said, it gives more credit to the story of Jesus in the kuran
June 7th, 2006 at 3:38 pm
A lot of people have told me the movie sucks…that seems to be the majority view.
Second point:
SM, why the hell do you have “Islamist” friends??? These people shouldn’t be your friends, they should be your enemies…unless you have some plan on how to turn them away from their wickedness and make them more tolerant…but that doesn’t happen.
Like I said before, I don’t give a rat’s ass about this movie…but when you start having ignoramus’s believing Dan Brown and Tom Hanks about the truth of Christianity, well then, that’s the problem.
Tell your Zarqawi buddy that the movie is pure fictitious bull-shit.
June 7th, 2006 at 3:44 pm
This movie is really well done…as far as an effective thriller/suspense movie it delivers…people have to remember that it’s just fiction…i’m sick of people taking it so seriously…fucking Hollywood critics
it’s a well done movie for any fan of the book. it conveys the story as the book did and truly is not as boring as people claim it is…
June 7th, 2006 at 4:39 pm
Let me throw in a bit of theology here. According to the Nicene Creed, a sort of religious policy statement established by Christianity in the early 300s during the reign of the Roman Emperor Constantine:
“We believe in on Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one being with the Father. Through Him all things were made. For us and our salvation, He came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man.”
It goes on a bit as to the crucifixion and resurection and the coming again in glory, et cetera, but the point here is in that last sentence quoted: “and was made man.” This is one of the crucial elements of Christianity as I understand it, that Christ was God incarnate, God-in-human-flesh, not some spirit-stuff apparition, but a living, breathing human being. A pretty common element in a lot of Protestant sermons is “Christ was human, so he understands the temptations and troubles that humans face.” Okay, if he was human, what’s the problem with a human male fathering a child with a human female? In fact, I rather like the idea that the Savior had carnal knowledge as opposed to a theoretical understanding of the process.
At any rate, as far as the movie goes, I agree with the general appraisal of suckdom. There were parts of it that were quite boring and the various twists and turns were telegraphed so blatantly that there weren’t any real suprises, even for one who had not read the novel. And I still don’t see the controversy. It did not deny the death or resurection of Christ (as some variants of the story do). I can’t even figure out why the Alibinos are pissed off. If ALL the members of the Priory of Sion were alibinos, okay, but this was just one guy. I suppose I could take exception to linking the bloodline of Christ to the Merovingian dynasty, which was pretty much a pack of inbred, fratricidal losers, but other than that, what’s the fuss?
June 7th, 2006 at 4:58 pm
Egypeter, I have “mild” Islamist friends to put it crudely. So? I hate filthy terrorists but this is a little different. Some of my friends hate America and the Jews and I tried to convince them otherwise. Some listened and cooled it down and others… well not so much. However if they’ve got my back, are good friends, I can trust them, they share my happy and sad times with me, have been by my side etc. I think that’s more important on a friendship basis than their political beliefs. I got druggie friends. So? Up to them if they wanna get stoned 24/7 as long as they’re decent towards me. I’ve got lesbian friends. I love them for it LOL =p So? I’m straight and I ain’t turning gay for sure. They’re still friends… People will always have different opinions…
I think SM meant those kind of friends… not Islamist in the sense that they wanna literaly kill infidels…. Anyways chillout… I hated the movie too. It was nothing but showbiz… Freaking boring…
June 7th, 2006 at 5:01 pm
Sand Monkey DAAAMN… Dude I’m so honored man… SHYTE! I just noticed my name under the Local Playground on the left side bar… Man thanx a lot for linking to me. I really appreciate it…
Alf shukr walahi… Yalla salam o tislam inshalla
June 7th, 2006 at 5:22 pm
I’ve watched the documentary investigating the supposedly stated facts in Brown’s book and it was very entertaining. I’m sure the movie would seem extremely boring after that.
June 7th, 2006 at 5:30 pm
Repercussions of banning the Da vinci Code
As expected, the proposed banning of the controversial film version of the book The Da Vinci Code in Jordan has increased interest in the film. Here is an excerpt from a Jordan Times article: …shops selling pirated DVDs in downtown Amman are awash wi…
June 7th, 2006 at 7:18 pm
Uchuck,
Let me throw in a bit of theology here. According to the Nicene Creed, a sort of religious policy statement established by Christianity in the early 300s during the reign of the Roman Emperor Constantine:
You can just toss that as far as I’m concerned. What does a Chrurch doctrine published 300 years after the time of Jesus have to do with scripture?
If it’s not in the Bible, it’s garbage. Luther and Calvin both dispensed with all Church doctrine that wasn’t based on scripture, during the very early days of the Protestan movement. I get so sick of people quoting Church doctrine as if it’s scripture. One of the major beefs I have with organized religions. They are all the same in this way.
June 7th, 2006 at 7:29 pm
Sandmonkey,
Cause it showed that Jesus was a man, and if jesus was a man, then that’s Proof Positive that the Koran is right and that Islam is the one true faith.
Jesus is a man in the Bible too. As you can see, it was 300 years later that Church Elders decided Jesus was God.
June 7th, 2006 at 8:26 pm
(Banging my head against the wall)
See what I mean? fighting over doctrine and who did what and why when there is no completely accurate record! During the middle ages all of these records were re written hundreds of times, changed, etc. Who knows what is right anymore? Maybe the Hindi!
June 7th, 2006 at 10:35 pm
Weeelll… this all so interesting. If it wasn’t hollywood it might actually have some basis. COME ON FOLKS. One of the first things I taught my young son was if it was on TV/MOVIES it was just like a fairy tale. It was supposed to be entertainment. If you didn’t like it sorry, you just wasted a coulpe of hours and a little money. You guys act like Californians( having been raised there that is my worst insult).
June 7th, 2006 at 11:00 pm
It wasn’t 300 years later that somebody just came along and decided Jesus was God. Roman sources say those weird Christians worship some crucified carpenter as a god. (Pliny’s letter to the Emperor Trajan on how to try and condemn Christians, for instance.) Early Christian sources say Jesus is God. And of course, the Gospels and the other books of the New Testament (which are also first century Christian sources) say that Jesus is God.
But gee, you might have to spend three seconds on Google finding that out.
The reason it came up in a church council at all was that Arius was saying Jesus WASN’T God but only God’s super-spiffiest creation, and that was new.
(As opposed to old fashioned heresies like Gnosticism, which said that Jesus, Christ, the Word, Man, Church, Spirit, Cross, and the Lord (as seen at the beginning of the Gospel of John) were all different gods, and all the female gods were imperfect. They had like thirty different gods, in fact, and a whole bunch of demigods. Only God wasn’t a god.
June 8th, 2006 at 12:21 am
How does the movie give credit to the Koran when it says that Jesus was a normal man…not even a prophet…just a wise man? ‘There was no facsimile from God to man’.. and that religion is a question of belief not history…that’s what the movie says basically - it even shows right at the start the origins of religion traced back to earlier civilizations. And if Christianity is man made, then it follows that Islam is man made of course
June 8th, 2006 at 12:50 am
The film is more ridiculous than the book from what I’ve told.
That is hard to believe, the book was the sort of childish reading that thrills a 7th grader….kind of like the Necronomicon but not as cool.
June 8th, 2006 at 12:51 am
I meant “what I’ve been told.”
I think I’ll hold off on that next beer for awhile.
June 8th, 2006 at 12:56 am
Maureen,
And of course, the Gospels and the other books of the New Testament (which are also first century Christian sources) say that Jesus is God.
Nonsense. Have you even read the Bible?
Chapter and Verse, please.
June 8th, 2006 at 1:05 am
And no interpretations, Maureen. Just the quotes. I could list 100 things off the top of my head that Catholics believe that do not come from scripture, some of them about things that are pretty damn controversial… like the idea that everyone who isn’t a Chrsitain is going to hell. That isn’t what I read, and every time somebody has tossed off a piece of scripture that they think proves it, I can easily read it another way. But all that is irrelevant, because when John speaks of who is saved in the Book of Revelation, he explicitly names non-Christians as being among those saved. End of Discussion, as far as I’m concerned.
Actually, never mind with providing the Bible quotes. I’m sure they don’t say what you claim they say, but I’m equally sure I’ll never convince somebody like you of that. For your own sake, I suggest you try to read them again, in context with everything else Jesus says, and see if you REALLY think Jesus is claiming to be God, when he says SO MANY times that he is nothing but a messenger.
June 8th, 2006 at 1:12 am
Drima-
My bad, I may have jumped the gun a bit. But I hope you can see what I meant as the Sandmonkey is the antithesis of an “islamistl” Hopefully, SM is trying to temper their thought…just as you did with me
There’s a lot of theological talk going on before me. Everybody needs to be careful here because we have Muslims, Catholics, Protestats, Orthodox and others on this blog. Some may believe in one thing and others not, obivously.
I’m not sure what Craig is saying, but if you’re a Christian, then you must believe that Christ was God incarnate. If you don’t then you aren’t a Christian. There are many many verses in the Holy Bible that defines Christ’s divinity.
Maureen- You’re right on the money with your explanation of the Nicene Creed and why it was approved and established. It’s not like the Nicene Creed was put together from random sources…it all comes straight from the Bible.
June 8th, 2006 at 1:22 am
You know, I had to read “The Da Vinci Code”, “Angels and Demons”, and “Deception Point” before I realized that Dan Brown is sorta overrated.
He’s a good writer, but I don’t really see how people can change their world view because of his ideas. All I see is convenient interpretations of his work.
;p
June 8th, 2006 at 5:48 am
Egypeter,
I’m not sure what Craig is saying, but if you’re a Christian, then you must believe that Christ was God incarnate. If you don’t then you aren’t a Christian. There are many many verses in the Holy Bible that defines Christ’s divinity.
Show me. If you can, I will gladly renounce the Christian faith and become a Jew, since that seems to be what you are implying. To say Jesus was God incarnate is to say Jesus was a liar, since he contradicts that claim himself, explicitly, about 100 times. So, either Jesus was God, and God is a liar, or Jesus wasn’t God… I’m very confused now. Which is why I decided years ago not to pay any attention to people who say things that don’t come from the Bible. Tell you what, you stick to your beliefs, and I’ll stick to mine, ok? Millions of people died over these disagreements. If they weren’t resolved then, they won’t be resolved now.
June 8th, 2006 at 6:29 am
Using the chapter that some Christians think contains a claim that Jesus is God:
Jesus is not God:
John 8:16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
John 8:18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
John 8:26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
John 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
John 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
(A man!? A man!!!! is that NOT Jesus saying that he is just a man?)
Jesus is God:
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Note that in both of these verses that some Christains belive amounts to a claim that Jesus is God, the entire reason for that is the use of the two words “I am” - because God said to Moses “I AM THAT I AM”. Yhwh means I am. So, nobody can say “I am” without claiming to be God or something, I guess. At least, if someone has an agenda to fulfil, anyway.
Anyway, Peter, my reading comprehension is pretty good. I don’t see a claim that Jesus is God in here. Or, anywhere else in the Bible. And for every verse that can be twisted into such a claim, I could list 5 that would contradict, that don’t ahve to be twisted around to do so.
Lastly, I’m including this one just because I like it, and it has some bearing on this discussion
John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
June 8th, 2006 at 8:31 am
According to Islam, Jesus was a holy Prophet and one of the greatest and most respected indeed. We don’t believe he was God or the son of God but he was only a Prophet, a powerfull and respected Prophet.
The big disagreement comes in the crucification part. Jesus was not crucified. It was a man that looked like him who was crucified. Jesus was raised up to the heavens and he’s still alive to this day.
June 8th, 2006 at 2:51 pm
Craig - you don’t want to convert to Judaism, mate… it’s lots of hard work. Being a Jew sucks - it’s all about following 613 weird commandments (well, some of them do make sense, but the rest? Wheeew!) so that the world will continue ticking. I have a Bahaii friend who’s converting now, and it’s like being in uni all over again
Drima - I never understood that. People were crucified all the time back then by the Romans. And the punishment for rebels - like Jesus - was crucifiction. While there is no hard historic evidence of Jesus, given the stories about him I recon it’s very likely he was dealt with in the same way as all the other rebels. Must’v been fun, being a Jew in the Second Judean Rebellion
June 8th, 2006 at 3:52 pm
Craig -
With all due respect, I don’t know if I’ve ever met a Christian who did NOT think Jesus was God. I do now groups like Jehova’s Winesses (and some others) who do not believe in Christ’s divinity…but those are “fringe” Christians groups, who (IMO) are not truly Christian. As a matter of fact, there have been many heresies in the past debating this very subject, Arius (an Alexandrian) was one of the authors of this heresy before the Church, with sound theological backing, deposed him.
Now, you ask for Bibilical proof on Christ’s divinity…okay, here:
John 1:1 - John writes, “the Word was God.” This is clear evidence of Jesus Christ’s divinity. (Note: in the Jehovah’s bible, the passage was changed to “Word was a god.” This is not only an embarrassing attempt to deny the obvious divinity of Christ, but it also violates the first commandment and Isaiah 43:10 because it acknowledges that there is more than one God).
John 1:2-3 - He (the Word) was in the beginning with God and all things were made through Him (the Word who was God).
John 1:14 - the Word (who is God) became flesh (Jesus) and dwelled among us, full of grace and truth.
John 1:18 - the Greek word for “only-begotten” is “monogenes” which means unique, only member of a kind. It does not mean created.
John 1:51 - the angels of God - Matt. 13:41 - Son of Man’s angels; 2 Thess. 1:7 - Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His angels.
John 3:5 - Jesus says without baptism one cannot enter into the Kingdom of God - Col. 1:13 - Paul says this is Jesus’ Kingdom.
John 6:68-69 - Peter confesses that Jesus is the Son of God who has the words of eternal life.
Acts 2:36 - God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ - Acts 4:24 - Sovereign Lord who made heaven and earth. This means Jesus is God.
Acts 3:15 - Peter said the men of Israel “killed the Author of Life.” This can only be God - Acts 14:15 - who made all things.
Acts 20:28 - to care for the Church of God which He obtained with His own blood. This means God shed His blood. When? When He died on the cross. This means Jesus is God.
Rom. 1:1 - Paul is an apostle of the Gospel of God - Rom. 15:19 - Paul preached the Gospel of Christ.
Rom. 7:22 - Paul says he delights in the law of God - Gal. 6:2 - Paul says fulfill the law of Christ.
Rom. 8:9 - Paul refers to both the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ.
Rom. 9:5 - Jesus Christ is God over all, blessed forever.
Rom. 11:36 - God for from Him through Him and to Him are all things - Heb. 2:10 - Jesus for whom and by whom are all things.
1 Cor. 15:9 - Paul says he persecuted the Church of God - Matt. 16:18; Rom. 16:16 - it is the Church of Jesus Christ.
1 Cor. 15:28 - God may be all in all - Colossians 3:11 - Christ is all and in all.
Gal. 1:5 - God the Father to whom be the glory forever - 2 Peter 3:18 - to Jesus Christ be the glory both now and forever.
Phil. 2:6-7 - Jesus was in the form of God, but instead of asserting His equality with God, emptied Himself for us.
Col. 1:15 - Jesus is the image of the invisible God, the “firstborn” of all creation. The Greek word for “first-born” is “prototokos” which means eternal preexistence (it never means created).
Col. 1:26 - God’s saints - 1 Thess. 3:13 - at the coming of Jesus Christ with all His saints.
Col. 2:9 - in Jesus Christ the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily. He is the whole and entire fullness of the indivisible God in the flesh.
Titus 1:1 - Paul says he is a servant of God - Rom. 1:1 - Paul says he is a servant of Jesus Christ.
Titus 1:3-4 - God our Savior = Christ our Savior = Jesus Christ is God.
Titus 2:11 - the grace of God that has appeared to save all men - Acts 15:11 - through the grace of Jesus we have salvation.
Titus 2:13 - we await our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.
Titus 3:4 - 3:6 - great God and Savior Jesus Christ = God our Savior = Jesus Christ our Savior = Jesus is God.
Heb. 1:6 - when God brings His first-born into the world, let all the angels of God worship Him. Only God is worshiped.
Heb. 1:8 - God calls the Son “God.” But of the Son He says, “Thy Throne Oh God is forever and ever.”
Heb. 1:9 - God calls the Son “God.” “Therefore, God, Thy God has anointed Thee.”
Heb. 1:10 - God calls the Son “Lord.” “And thou, Lord, didst found the earth in the beginning and the heavens are your work.”
Heb. 13:12 - Paul says Jesus sanctifies the people with His blood - 1 Thess. 5:23 - the God of peace sanctifies the people.
2 Peter 1:1 - to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing in the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.
1 John 5:20 - “that we may know Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.”
Jude 4 - Jude calls Jesus Christ our only Master and Lord. Our only Master and Lord is God Himself.
Rev. 2:8 - the angel of the church in Smyrna wrote, “The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life.” See Isa. 44:6.
Rev. 22:6 - the Lord God sends angels - Rev. 22:16 - Jesus sends angels.
Hope that helps in explaining why Christians believe Jesus was FULLY GOD and FULLY HUMAN at the same time, in one person.
Drima- What you claimed are your (muslim) beliefs. There isn’t a Christian in the world that believes Christ’s body was subsituted or replaced by someone “who looked like him.”
Jeez…I guess “conspiracy theroies” have been around a lot longer than I thought.
June 8th, 2006 at 4:42 pm
With all due respect, I don’t know if I’ve ever met a Christian who did NOT think Jesus was God.
What kind of respect is that? You just said 90% of Protestants, including Luther and Calvin, are heretics.
I’m not going through your quotes one by one. I think any rational reader can see how you are jumping throughb hoops there. God is our savior. Jesus is our savior. Therefore, Jesus is God. Indeed. Enjoy your religion, Peter. It’s not mine. You don’t have aright to tell me what to believe, and you don’t have a right to call me a heretic and a non-Christian because I interpret scripture differently than you do. I study the logic of language for a living. I’m a C/C++ programmer. If I tried to compile scripture the way you interpret it, it would crash and burn. It just plain doesn’t make any sense that Jesus would claim to be God during the same sermon where he claims to be nothing but a messenger of God, and a vessel of God’s will. Counter-intutive, man. But I’m not going to kill you for it, and I’m not going to call you a non-believer either.
June 8th, 2006 at 5:10 pm
Dude, I don’t a shit what you believe, Craig!!
You quoted scripture proving YOUR point, I have every right to quote scripture and prove my point, right?
You’re credentials as a programmer don’t mean shit to me either. And maybe my Bachelor of Science in Molecular Biology don’t mean shit to you either but don’t tell me you interpretation of scripture is better than mine. I’m glad you study the “logic of language” …great…I study the language of the Holy Bible and the teachings of the Church Fathers.
The only reason I responded is because you were quoting scripture proving your point. So I did the same.
You’re the one that got your panties all up in a bunch bro!!!
“I think any rational reader can see how you are jumping throughb hoops there. God is our savior. Jesus is our savior. Therefore, Jesus is God. Indeed. Enjoy your religion, Peter. It’s not mine.”
Nice Craig. It’s funny how you got so defensive and then immediately went on the attack. I guess the MILLIONS and MILLIONS of Catholic and Orthodox believers are just idiots.
And, thanks, I will enjoy my religion. As a matter of fact I enjoy it very much and I hope you do the same.
Yeah, and don’t worry…I ain’t gonna chop your head off either.
***And for the record, I never meant to insult you or your beliefs****
June 8th, 2006 at 6:52 pm
And for the record, I never meant to insult you or your beliefs
Yes you did. You said I couldn’t be a Christian, because I don’t believe the same thing you do. This is exactly the same thing that caused Europe to be wracked by religious wars for over 100 years in the middle ages. How much bigger an insult is there than to accuse somebody’s beliefs of being heresy, Egypeter?
And it’s not the first time either. There was a post a few weeks ago where you also said anybody who didn’t believe what you did wasn’t a Christian. Live and let live, man. Live and let live.
Isn’t it strange that all these religions of “Love” and “Peace” cannot even be discussed without people getting so angry they want to kill each other? Organized religion is broken, and this discussion is an example of it’s failures. Have either one of us been behaving as a Christian should?
June 8th, 2006 at 6:55 pm
Wow. All I wanted to do was point out a Church doctrine that seemed to me to be part of the basis for the controversial reception of The Da Vinci Code. Craig, I sincerely apologize for offending you with the suggestion that an idea embodied in a document that has been at the central core of Roman Catholic Christianity for 1,681 years could possibly have anything to do with the negative reaction that some Christians have expressed toward the story-line of The Da Vinci Code. My Ph.D. in history somehow convinced me that I might have some insight to contribute, but you have demonstrated that I was mistaken.
However, I would like to return the favor in pointing out a mistake in your original reply to my original post. You wrote:
“If it’s not in the Bible, it’s garbage. Luther and Calvin both dispensed with all Church doctrine that wasn’t based on scripture, during the very early days of the Protestan movement. I get so sick of people quoting Church doctrine as if it’s scripture. One of the major beefs I have with organized religions. They are all the same in this way.”
If I am reading this right, Martin Luther dispensed with all Church doctrine that was not based on scripture, and thus your rejection of my citation of the Nicene Creed’s assertion that Christ was God incarnate. But Luther himself accepted the premise that Christ was both God and man. From the preface of the “Disputation of the Reverend Father Herr Doctor Martin Luther concerning the divinity and humanity of Christ” (28 February 1540):
“The reason for this disputation is this, that I desired you should be
supplied and fortified against the future snares of the devil, for a certain
man has put forth a mockery against the Church. I am not so much troubled
that an unlearned, unskilled, and altogether ignorant man seeks praise and a
name for himself, as that the men of Lower Germany are troubled by his inept, foolish, ignorant, unlearned, and ridiculous mocking. May you preserve this article in its simplicity, that in Christ there is a divine and a human
nature, and these two natures in one person, so that they are joined together
like no other thing, and yet so that the humanity is not divinity, nor the
divinity humanity, because that distinction in no way hinders but rather
confirms the union! That article of faith shall remain, that Christ is true
God and true man, and thus you shall be safe from all heretics.”
And in the “German Mass and Order of Divine Service” promulgated in by Luther in 1526, the Nicene Creed is included, to be sung by the congregation immediately following the reading of the Gospel and immediately preceeding the sermon.
It would seem to me–and I may be wrong (I’m not a C/C++ programer)–that Luther accepted the Nicene Creed.
June 8th, 2006 at 7:34 pm
that in Christ there is a divine and a human nature
Is there a divine AND human nature in God? No. There is not. Therefore, Jesus cannot be God. Can he?
I believe Jesus was imbued with the spirit of God. But that doesn’t (and didn’t) make him *literally* God. The quotes you just provided support me, and not you. I will never accept that Jesus and God are literally one and the same. That assertion flies in the face of what Jesus himself said. If you choose to believe so, that’s your business. Stay out of mine. I’m out of this dsicussion. You people are crazy.
June 8th, 2006 at 7:43 pm
OK, Craig.
I’m hoping we’ve pretty much reconciled here because it sounds like we are two like-minded individuals…pretty much.
I’ll say it again, I never meant to insult you or any other Protestant denomination. And if I did, then I sincerely apologize. We’re both CHRISTIAN …bottom line.
Listen, man, I have a bit of a different perspective on Christianity…the reason is because my family lived as Christians under fanatical muslim Egypt. Religous disputes between Christians seem SO INCREDIBLY petty to me when I look at the larger picture. I just wish that every practicing “western Christian” in the world was required to spend one year living in Egypt or any other Muslim/Arab nation. I guarantee you that would put so much of these debates into perspective. Trust me on that.
Just understand, friend, that I am Coptic Orthodox Christian. It is one of the oldest (if not the oldest) form of Christianity practiced today. The essence of our religon is the same as when St. Mark the Evangelist brought it to the shores of Alexandria in the 1st century. That’s not to say that it’s better than any other denomination, of course not…it’s just older, and well, more “orthodox.” We pride ourselves in practicing Christianity just like our Church Fathers did a long long time ago. And I am incredibly proud of my faith. If one wold look back at the history books and see what the Coptic Church had to go endure to survive, well, I think you’d be proud of them too
They were valiant and steadfast Christians.
Anyway, hope that helps Craig. Take care man.
June 8th, 2006 at 7:43 pm
One last thing, in case you didn’t catch it in your own quotes:
and yet so that the humanity is not divinity, nor the
divinity humanity, because that distinction in no way hinders but rather
confirms the union! That article of faith shall remain, that Christ is true
God and true man, and thus you shall be safe from all heretics.
If you read this carefully, you can see the stated intent of this position is to protect Christians from hereticy at both extremes. The kind of heresy that you are expressing, and the kind of heresy that the Da Vinci code is expressing. On the one hand, the idea that Jesus was entirely divine, and on the other, the idea that Jesus wasn’t divine at all.
Thanks for the back-up, even though it wasn’t intentional. Now I really am out of here.
June 9th, 2006 at 12:27 am
Craig, I am not trying to prove the divinity or humanity of Christ. I am not trying to prove that you are a heretic, nor am I wrapping myself in a self-righteous robe of orthodoxy. I am not trying to convert you to any form of religion or convince you of any doctrinal point. The only thing I’m trying to prove is that Martin Luther did not have a problem with the statement of doctrine that is the Nicene Creed.
June 9th, 2006 at 9:31 am
Egypter thank you.
Your scriptural demolishing of Craig was a tour de force. I am a graduate of a bible college, (Protestant), and your command of the scripture in demonstrating the divinity of Christ was awsome. However the scriptures you cited, strangely seemed to have no effect on the mind of Craig. Possibly it is because his boasted emmersion in computer code has deprived him of the ability to comprehend English human speech. Two points: when Jesus said “Before Abraham was I am”, the listening Jews picked up stones to stone him, for what? Because he had from their point of view just blasphemed by claiming to be God. The odd tense of Jesus statement was a direct reference to God’s identification of himself and given name at the burning bush and the hearers knew it. Secondly when he accuses you of making all protestants into heretics because they don’t believe in the divinity of Christ he displays his woeful ignorance again. The historic faith of Reformation Protestantism in all of its original varieties or nearly so adhered absolutely and to the death to the Divinity of Jesus Christ. And to this day the true Protestant Christians adhere to that as one of the “fundamentals” of their faith which is based on “sola scriptura”, scripture alone. All evangelical Protestant Christians assent to that. All would agree that to deny that doctrine puts a person outside the fold of Christianity and of Christ’s promise of salvation. While it is true that there are so called Christian churches which trace their lineage from the Reformation which no longer hold to this doctrine or do not insist on holding to it, those of us who do count them apostate and so does Craig’s misunderstood Bible wherein Jesus said “If you do not believe that I am He you will die in your sins.” There is one “He” in view here and that is THE “HE”, that is Almighty God. Wake up Craig and Muslims. Jesus says you must believe in him or be forever lost. This involves being “born again” by receiving Jesus as God’s solution to your problem of being a sinner and therefore disqualified for acceptance by Him. That solution involved his substitutionary death on a cross for your sins, the payment of an innocent life for your guilty life. But not just an ordinary human life of the same class as your own, no rather the infinitely valuable life of God himself in human form by which he reconciled alienated mankind to God as the go between from the infinitely holy God to the infinitely needy humanity, the God-man. When you have requested and received the gift of God’s Spirit which is the new birth you will also receive the ability to correctly understand the scriptures which record Christ’s claim to be God in the flesh, a claim which he was charged with making by the Jewish court and for making of which he was condemned and executed. But he rose again, overturning their judgment.
June 9th, 2006 at 3:46 pm
Thanks Hank!
I couldn’t have put it more succinctly!!
That was a beautiful Orthodox (as my mind is an Orthodox one
) answer that you gave right there! You hit many excellent points and also explained to me a little about the Protestant faith.
I have to admit, I’m a little ignorant on the Protestant Denominations. I think I’ve got a pretty good idea in general but I just don’t know which denomination believes what, specifically.
Of course, as far as I’m concerned, Jesus was 100% Divine and 100% Human in one. That was Jesus
Anyway, God bless brother.
June 13th, 2006 at 7:03 am
A pretty common element in a lot of Protestant sermons is “Christ was human, so he understands the temptations and troubles that humans face.†Okay, if he was human, what’s the problem with a human male fathering a child with a human female?
Christianity regards marriage, in part, as a symbol of the relationship between Christ and the Church. John the Baptist draws on this comparison: “The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom’s voice” (John 3:29). The Bible also teaches that all Christians are equals: “There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus” (Galatians 3:27-29). For Jesus to enter a human marriage with Mary Magdalene, to share a level and type of intimacy not to be shared with the rest of the Bride of Christ, wrecks the idea of Christians as equals.
June 14th, 2006 at 2:30 am
All evangelical Protestant Christians assent to that.
Which is 3% of the Protestants in the United States
If I wanted to listen to Pat Robertson, Hank, I’d turn on the Television.