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Wednesday, 21 Jun 2006
The Guardain published a report saying that A.J. enjoys a 70% approval rating. How did they get that number? Was it by a poll? Nope. Some dude said it:
"He's more popular now than a year ago. He's on the rise," said Nasser
Hadian-Jazy, a professor of political science at Tehran University. "I
guess he has a 70% approval rating right now. He portrays himself as a
simple man doing an honest job. He's comfortable communicating with
ordinary people."
Oh, Ok! Guess we will just have to take your word for it!
However, to be fair, A.J. is not hated in Iran, but it has nothing to do with the nuclear issue at all. It's about his payouts. The dude, the moment he got in pwoer, doubled all the salaries of the government employees. The reason why he could afford that? Well, the Iranian nuclear crisis- which he started- is causing the oil prices to go up, providing him with the cash necessary to cover those costs. It's the same technique that Chavez is using: by creating a crisis, he destabalizes the Oil prices and brings them up, thus increasing his cash inflows. It makes no economic sense for those 2 men to seek stability or peace: Both of them have a popularity that depends on giving bribe money to the poor. So yeah, why not spark a couple "America wants to invade us!" statements, Chavez, Or give us more of those "Israel should be whiped off the map" zingers, A.J.? God knows everytime you do, you get more money. The rest of the world be damned!
June 21st, 2006 at 10:06 am
Another phenonmenal breakdown of the geopolitical meltdown ahead of us.
You know I think you are right! If Israel would give up its own stockpile of bagels and kosher gherkins, maybe just, maybe Iran will stop threatening the world with an attack of Kebab Soltani.
June 21st, 2006 at 10:21 am
Don’t be so sure about A.J.’s approval rating. My gf says her Iranian friends back home are not happy. Inflation is really high, no new good jobs, and more and more people are becoming addicted to cheap opium due to boredom. Plus the religious police seem to have a little more zing in their step killing off anything that resembles “fun” .
Surprisingly, many Iranians are atheist and progressive (nice job, mullahs) and are a tad ashamed to be identified with this nazi-denying fundamentalist nut-bar. Most Iranians simply don’t care about the Israel-Palestinian situation… they have their own problems to deal with.
June 21st, 2006 at 12:06 pm
“The Guardain published a report saying that A.J. enjoys a 70% approval rating. How did they get that number? Was it by a poll? Nope. Some dude said it.”
*On. The. Floor. Laughing.*
June 21st, 2006 at 12:08 pm
“and more and more people are becoming addicted to cheap opium due to boredom.”
And that is just as good!
Wow, they must really be bored!
June 21st, 2006 at 2:46 pm
Ahmadinejad is mullah’s puppet, it ’s soon time they could get rid of him : when americans will sit with them for discussions !
and their economy is still in a very bad state even if they get more money with oil ; mullah know it very well and they don’t want to have their head cut off by people riots !
June 21st, 2006 at 3:52 pm
People still believe anything the Guardian says? Wow. But then again, Bibi managed to return to politics.
I think “the rest of the world be damned” is the key issue here.
June 21st, 2006 at 7:21 pm
I’ve been saying this for a long time now. The vast majority of Iranians are comfortable with their regime and when problems arise well heck its the JOOOOOS and Americans to blame
June 21st, 2006 at 11:43 pm
sm, wouldn’t u do the same thing if u were a country’s leader? a country’s leader should look out for hiw own people first. HE’S not the one invading other countries. and they have a perfect right to nuclear weapons as well.
June 22nd, 2006 at 2:20 am
a country’s leader should look out for hiw own people first.
Is that what you call it, when you put 68 million people at risk of being annihilated in a pre-emptive nuclear strike, my dear forsoothsayer? Putting the people first?
June 22nd, 2006 at 2:46 am
Iran have a “perfect” right to nuclear weapons? Uhm. Given by whom and/or earned by what?
Wait, wait, lemme try to answer the second one, I think I got it… they earned the right to nuclear armament by vowing to use it against Israel first and then against the rest of the world - as they try to take over the globe in a blaze of glory, with the aid of the 12th Imam.
Yup. You’re absolutely right. These guys MUST have nukes.
ARM THE AYATOLLAHS NOW! SELF-PRESERVATION IS RACIST!
June 22nd, 2006 at 2:51 am
Oh, BTW, forsoothsayer… just in case you believe it’s perfectly reasonable for the mad mullahs to instantly kill 7+ million people as long as the majority of them are Jews (did I get your drift right?
) - consider where the fallout will go, eh? And don’t forget the notion of retaliation.
Do you find huge planes of glass, stretching from horizon to horizon and glowing faint green in the dark… romantic? Awwwwww… ain’t that cute?
June 22nd, 2006 at 3:58 am
they have a perfect right to to preserve detente in the world of course. why should the u.s., israel, north korea, pakistan, inida and a host of others have nuclear weapons but not iran? because iran is “crazy” and “racist”? obviously, if all countries have nuclear weapons, none will really be harmed for fear of retaliation. basic geopolitics (remember the cold war?). but why should i expect you to think for yourselves? continue, by all means, parroting bushisms and the babblings of the ignorant. apparently, america gets to choose who can have nuclear weapons.
June 22nd, 2006 at 4:05 am
forsoothsayer -
Uhm. I am sorry. Could it be that I am against Iran having nuclear weapons for the reasons I have just stated in my previous post? Namely:
they earned the right to nuclear armament by vowing to use it against Israel first and then against the rest of the world - as they try to take over the globe in a blaze of glory, with the aid of the 12th Imam.
Do you think the Iranian government is just lying when it says it will destroy Israel (repeatedly, more or less every single day in the past… while)? Ahhh, bugger it. Just remember - you’re in the range of the nukes. I don’t have the energy to explain the plain bleeding obvious to you at the moment, not to repeat myself.
I am just happy that blind stupidity will die along with humankind.
*spits*
June 22nd, 2006 at 4:48 am
Raccoon,
if/when A-Jlow uses nuclear weapons on Israel-he’ll wipe out the Palestinians in the process. More likely than not, Israel with its advanced technology will find a way-perhaps by diverting Iran’s missiles-to limit their casualties and maximize the Palestinians. So for all the talk of Israel’s ‘genocidal’ policy toward the Palestinians, it would be a good muslim (AJlow)who would actually get the job done in typical asine bone headed Islamic fashion.
June 22nd, 2006 at 6:11 am
forsoothsayer, let me clarify the double-standard so its perfectly clear.
Free democratic states are allowed Nuclear technology.
Fascist police-states that terrorize its own citizens are NOT allowed Nuclear technology.
Sometimes, a little hypocrisy is a great thing.
We are screwed with North Korea and Pakistan. It seems they don’t care which terrorist state they sell weapons to. Iran will be the worse. Since 1978, their whole purpose of existence is to destroy another country.
forsoothsayer, are you at all a tad concerned about President’s AJ’s insistence that the 12th Imam will return from hiding in the next few years? How does the legend go again… something about man causing the apocalypse?
Are you absolutely sure you want this nutbar carrying out the prophecy?
June 22nd, 2006 at 11:03 am
R -
AJ and his mates already stated that they’re cool with killing a few million Muslims if it also means killing Jews.
They even got a special fatwa released for this, along with the fatwa that authorizes the use of nuclear weapons.
The Arrow missiles don’t have very succesful performance statistics just yet… but then again, the new landborne laser defense system seems to be working pretty good.
The real problem is that it doesn’t actually matter WHERE the blast it. Nowadays, if one goes off, they all go off. Kind of like christmass lights.
June 23rd, 2006 at 10:06 pm
How about free deomcratic states that are only free and democratic for a minority based on religion, and that also happen to be occupiyng another two countries illegally, and who have been historically traumatized as a people and hence should be the first nation to disown violence? What should they be allowed?
Wake up fuck face and smell the coffee! NO ONE SHOULD be ALLOWED NUCLEAR WEAPONS.
June 23rd, 2006 at 10:22 pm
If it were only that simple, sug.
June 23rd, 2006 at 11:03 pm
Well enlighten me Karen! That’s just it, when someone raises a valid argument, you shake your head and say “tsk, tsk, if it were only that simple” and then patronize them to eternity.
Nuclear weapons are bad news, period! That idiot in Tehran should be disarmed pronto, so to should the Korean and Pakistan spasticos. As for elsewhere in the Middle East, one powerful nation posessing nuclear arms will never secure peace and stability for that one nation, let alone its autocratic neighbors. Has posesssing nuclear weapns stopped the carnage? Has it prempted the moronic, demonic religious fanatic terrorists from blowing themselves up and innocent lives?
There is just so much anger and violence that no one has ever stopped to think at what are the implications of a real peace. Every one on both ends of the debate is armed psychologically to the teeth, that the only way out - we are made to believe - is through more carnage, more blood, and more reenforced hatred.
Are Arab and Islamic nations backward and need to be modernized? You bet, genius! Will violence, bombs, and nuclear threats do it? Never!
What will? Attacking the core of the problem: the decaying, archaic, Arab-Islamic culture, at the basic level of schools, and within the context of a LONG ass range plan.
Please attack us with real democratic values. Ambush us with a deep understanding of human rights values, and civic responsibilities. I beg you to destroy us with tolerance. Anhilate us with compassion. Pulverize us with functional work ethics.
And don’t wait for it to happen overnight - this is not the fast food industry. Our cultures have been rotting for hundreds of years, and it will take time to undo this rot, and to rid ourselves of the dark forces of religious backwardness.
Fight the Arab and Muslim threat not with Weapons of Mass Destruction, but through Words of Mass Constrution.
June 24th, 2006 at 2:23 am
Once again everybody.
Why o why is the ME such a shithole??
June 24th, 2006 at 2:48 pm
Cut Snake -
It’s the fucking weather, mate. The heat messes with our noggins, makes everybody edgy… Yei for a new ice age!
Sugarandspice -
You’re right in some ways and wrong in other ways. Do you really wish to discuss it?
If you do, lets’ start with clarifying whom you meant in post #17.
June 24th, 2006 at 4:48 pm
Israel Of course. Do you really think Israel being a nuclear power will ultimately help it, or attain security? The fundamental disconnect between Isaeli’s and Arabs, is that Israel wants the Arab states to accept it, but wants to keep on surviving in isolation. Israel has no long term plan or intention to integrate in the region. When you move into a new neighborhood, you don’t stock up on WMDs, especially if you want to make long term friends.
Frankly, given the status of its neighbors, I cannot blame Israel for not wanting to integrate. Arabs regimes are corrupt, authoritarian, and are happy to keep their peoples backward and exacerbated in a state of religious hysteria.
So what is the solution? Stock up on WMDs and say it’s okay because we are a democracy? Then the Iraq’s and the Iran’s of the world start getting trigger envy.
I think Israel should see itself as the big, educated brother in a family of dysfunctional siblings. Instead of disowning them and isolating them, it should attempt to fundamentally change them, so they can eventually work together as one big functional family.
So the Arab’s can blame their backwardness and their inability to evolve on the shackles that is the archaic way that Islam is being interpreted, and fractured societies. What excuse does Israel have? I want an international jewish and zionist cospiracy aimed at reforming and modernizing the Arab world. What Israel fails to see is that any of it’s current safety valves will only maintain its way of life on edges - until another religious wacko decides to blow themselves up.
If I were Israel, I would think of the huge economic benefits a united, secular Middle East, with Jews, Muslims, Christians living together, and working to better their lot as one block. They say we are cousins, we are from the same genetic stock, but as family, we sure suck and I would not want to be there for birthdays or holidays! But as a family, I see the onus of fixing things up on the most advanced, the most educated.
In conclusion: it is easy to discredit Arabs and Muslims as backward, angry, violent, and barbaric animals. The real challenge is to attempt to change them. Only then will real peace and prosperity reign.
June 25th, 2006 at 2:57 am
Uhm… sugar [would you mind if I called you sugar? Or sugah?
]… there’s a number of problems with the way you see it, IMO.
1) Israel is not big. It’s a tiny land with a tiny nation.
1b) Israel is also not particularly rich or powerful.
2) Arabs and/or Muslims are not animals. Nor are they children. They are humans, and an Arab and/or Muslim over 18 is as much an adult as a Jew and/or Norwegian.
3) Israel has tried and is trying to set up some sort of normal relationships with its neighbors. So far it’s not working very well - I don’t understand the Jordanian reluctance over the joint airport in Eilat, for instance. They’re going to lose tremendous amounts of money just because they have been dragging their feet with it for years. Or the continued virulence of Egyptian anti-semitic propaganda. Not to mention Lebanon or PA or Syria.
4) Israel cannot make up the mind of a different state, nor can the Israelis make up the minds of different nations. It just doesn’t work this way.
5) Israel does what it can with what it’s got. All Israelis have equal rights, heedless of race or creed. And yet I don’t have any Arab neighbors, and although Arabs are approx. 20% of the population I only ever interact with them nowadays when I speak to the guy I buy groceries from and when I speak to my lawyer. Both are Arabs - neither chooses to live among Jews.
6) Jews are not very good at conspiracies, cooperation or even agreeing about things - and that’s with other Jews. They’re good at survival, thinking and being rude.
7) When your neighbors repeatedly try to kill you instead of a housewarming party, you tend to get a tad defensive. After the 4th time they try to kill you, some heavy-duty protection begins to sound like a good idea. Enter WMDs. It’s not OK because Israel is a democracy - it’s OK because Israel is being constantly threatened with destruction by forces much stronger than it, and because Israel has shown that it’s more than capable of NOT using WMDs while having them.
As you can see, there are some problems with your plan for Peace in the Middle East
BTW, one of the saddest events for both Israel and PA was the second intifada. It was as if the Palestinians suddenly decided that
“Hey, we don’t want all that prosperity and peace bullshit we’re getting now. Let’s have us some good ol’ poverty and death! Yeah, that sounds like a good idea! Yalla, yitbah el-yahood!”
*shrugs*
To conclude - Israel is in no position to take charge in the Middle East. Nor is it right for Israel to do so, since it’s not really an educated big brother among a bunch of drooling morons. This situation will continue until:
a) The Arabs and/or Muslims states will chill out, start prefering peace and prosperity to death and poverty and stop trying to destroy Israel.
b) Israel will be destroyed, probably in a nuclear holocaust. The world will be destroyed in the process, most probably, but it won’t take long and most people won’t even notice.
c) The Jews will invent something to solve the problem - a force field to cover all of Israel, some way to terraform Mars and move Israel there along with Jerusalem, a way to shift Israel to a different dimention, a type of radiation that makes people all chilled out and happy or something of the sort.
Take your pick of the most likely outcome… and remember the Jewish Kingdom in what is now Kerala, India
June 25th, 2006 at 6:37 am
Hey Raccoon. Your posting confirms exactly what I have been fumbling to say. It’s always every one else’s fault, isn’t it? It’s just so much easier to blame the Arabs and their states because we make such terrible fools of ourselves, and have penchant to do so when every body is looking!
My biggest problem with your hypothesis is this: Israel feels threatened and let down by Arabs because things did not quite work out with other Arab states in the last half century. Who the fuck cares what Arab states think?! Demagogic, autocratic, corrupt Arab states are the real enemy. This is the problem, Israel has been identifying its existence by whether Arab nation states accept it or not. Well look at Egypt, we have a peace treaty, we have formal diplomatic ties, and are Egyptians an inch closer to loving Israel? I will let you answer that. It takes four or five years in America and feeling culturally inferior for someone like Sand Monkey to come back feeling all this love for Israel, and nothing inherent in Egyptian culture or society would ever achieve that.
Pardon my testicles, but the “Israel is small, Jews cannot conspire” is the funniest joke I have heard since any of the Mubarak elections. Are you freaking serious? Dude, why are you being humble? You have the US and most Western countries supporting your existence, far more convincingly and far more potently than your own WMDs could ever achieve. For a tiny country, you sure as hell are convincing brother! You have tapped into they psyche of an entire nation (US), and figured out some weird ass theological alliance with the right wing Christians and have them all hyped up, ready to get on the first flight to Tel Aviv to fight for you. American politicians would rather come out naked at a white house press conference, sucking on a dildo than say anything remotely critical of “our friend Israel!” So please, don’t insult the very little intelligence that I have by trying to slip the “Israel is small, poor, and lacks influence in the world” line, cause I aint buying it.
Israel is strong and is here to stay. The problem is, existing is one thing, and existing peacefully and prospering is an entirely different issue. For Israel, Arabs are just an annoyance that they hope sorely would just disappear. Your “force field” concept was meant as a joke, but it is indicative of a deeper desire within most Israelis that Arabs would just disappear. And I am guessing you are smart enough to know that this will not happen any time soon, with or without your stupid great wall of China buffoonery!
So what must Israel and the Israelis do to get us all out of this predicament? Well for starters we need to agree that regardless of how disenfranchised you feel, you need to accept the onus of responsibility. Pardon me if your ability to survive in this jungle for more than fifty years and still manage to become a modern, advanced society does not give me additional faith in your ability to get things done, even if you want to be humble about. You’ve got street cred!
The first thing that Israel, Israelis, Jews, and their friends around the world must do is to stop being limited to dealing with Arab states, when it comes to dealing with Arabs. What I am fantasizing about is a long term modernization and secularization project that aims at evolving Arabs. It is the mother of all development projects. It is the project that will aim to once and for all destroy the radical roots of Islam. It would be a socio economic venture that would aim at leveraging the natural resources of the region with the cultural prowess and technological advancement of Israel in the larger interest of creating a new economic powerhouse to rival Asia and Europe.
And I am not asking Israel to do this on its own. Believe me, just say go, and you will find millions of like-minded Arabs who are currently hiding in the closet content to blogging, or even pettier, posting on the blogs of others (like myself) - who will buy into this. Your natural cultural allies exist, but we are just too scared of our own savage governments and our relgiously hysterical compatriots to do anything about it.
The problem of course is that Israel is not this one united edifice, but a complicated, sophisticated mess of a society. More terrifying is the fundamentally religious (often radical) basis of Israel. I do not know much about Judaism, but the last time I looked it shcoked me because it reminded me so much of Islam in its inately useless design:
Chicks cutting their hair and wearing wigs? No cheeseburgers - ever? No shrimp cocktail? Dudes not working on Saturday? Dudes banging their head on some wall to atone for something? If religion is the lynchpin of your country my good friend raccoon, if it is the zeal by which you are motivated to exist that none of what I fantasize about will ever happen. If religion and its frantic flavor powers Israel on the one hand, and if religion and its frantic, terroristic flavor characterizes the response to Israel on the Arab Islamic side, then no wonder the Middle East is such a shit hole.
And finally, there is Israel’s tormented past that I feel will always be an obstacle. Okay, so what they did to you sucked, but when will you ever “get over it”? Aren’t years of love and positive affirmation by the coolest kids on the bloc (the West), enough to heal you psychologically so you can start behaving rationally? And yes, stockpiling on WMDs is a bloody irrational response to the problem!
When will Israel stop feeling like the victim, and start owning the problem?
June 25th, 2006 at 12:31 pm
Sugar -
Uhm, you got the bit about religious foundations of Israel wrong, mate. Israel is a secular state, and over 60% of Israelis are not religious (and a large percentage of those are atheists). The small percentage of overly religious Jews (about 10% of the population) are a powerful political force, though, because they don’t give a fuck about anything but themselves and can, therefore, blackmail the government when votes are balanced too close together (as always happens in Israel. See above about Jewish unity for reasons
). And yes, they’re a bunch of werid fucks that would happily turn Israel into a Jewish Iran - but people hate them so much there is a political party in Israel the sole purpose of which is to oppose the religious lunatics.
Actually, due to a stupid agreement with Ben Gurion back in ‘48 or so, they hold dominion over over three realms - births, marriages, and burials (with other religions having the same powers with their own respective communities). And the Gays are now close to removing marriage from their greedy little paws… and about godsdamn time. The fuckers forced me to pay them lots of money so that I could get married - AND forced me to have a Jewish wedding rather than a Discordiian one.
What motivates the Jewish people in general and Israel specifically is survival. That is the key to Israeli mentality - we survive first and everything else later. That is also the reason why assorted clubbing, raves and parties in Israel are so excellent - we always party like there’s no tomorrow because everyone knows tomorrow may never come.
Another problem is, as you have said, the fact that Jews are traumatized as people. Dude, after about 3000 years of people trying to wipe us out, we have some serious problems. And Jews have incredibly long cultural memories (guys like Koresh (Cyrus the Great) are still praised, guys like Aman are still reviled). So after the West left us to die in ‘48 - with undefensible borders and tremendous hordes of enemies - Israelis feel kind of insecure trusting anyone, yes? And the Holocaust, from a Jewish point of view, happened only yesterday.
Now, on to successful Jewish plotting and scheming… mate, look at approval rates of Israel and/or Jews in Europe. It can only be called a PR disaster. USA supports Israel thanks to the Cold War, the fact that USA needs Israel as a base in the Middle East (and as the Little Satan to draw Muslim ire) and because the large and succesful Jewish communities in USA invested in good PR over there. Moreover, Israel is in perpetual financial difficulties due to tremendous security expenses.
On to look at success - or lack thereof - Israel has with tying to westernize and/or educate Arabs. Israeli Arabs have enjoyed good education and good living for 50 years. And yet all too many prefer to bitch and whine and not become modern. It’s happening (birth rates are dropping steadily, education rates are rising steadily), but all too slowly.
Seriously… what would you like Israel to do?
BTW, the secular, modern Arabs are a silent bunch… how would Israel engage them?
June 25th, 2006 at 1:04 pm
That’s a good starting point. You need to explain to me the religious aspect of the foundations of Israel a little more though. It is my understanding, that Israel is effectively an apartheid state, where your citizenry is qualified by your religion. If that is not the case, why is it that Soviet Jews can ascend to citizenry (some of whom are not even Jewish!), while any body else simply cannot. Please be honest about this explanation and do not try to sugar coat it. I really want to understand because it is the number one source of repulsion vis-a-vis Arabs, let alone secularists around the world.
Mores specifically, what are your thoughts on Neturei Karta, the name given to a “group of Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem who refused (and still refuse) to recognize the existence or authority of the so-called “State of Israel” and made (and still make) a point of publicly demonstrating their position, the position of the Torah and authentic unadulterated Judaism.”
Also, and from the Neturei Karta website:
“Neturei Karta oppose the so-called “State of Israel”…because the entire concept of a sovereign Jewish state is contrary to Jewish Law.”
“Jews are not allowed to dominate, kill, harm or demean another people and are not allowed to have anything to do with the Zionist enterprise, their political meddling and their wars.”
“The true Jews remain faithful to Jewish belief and are not contaminated with Zionism.
The true Jews are against dispossessing the Arabs of their land and homes. According to the Torah, the land should be returned to them.”
“The world must know that the Zionists have illegitimately seized the name Israel and have no right to speak in the name of the Jewish people! ”
Please elaborate on this matter, as I am really curious to learn.
I will address the reamining part of your post in another post of my own. Thanks for responding and maintaing this argument in a civil manner
June 25th, 2006 at 1:26 pm
What should Israel and its supporters in the West do?
For starters, stop the wholesale demonizing of Arabs and Muslims in the US and international media.
I hae often posited that negative images of Arabs and Muslims becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, and further alienates that silent modern Arab bunch that are apparently so elusive to find. Arabs do not need the West do remind them of their dispecable condition on the cultural map of the world. And believe me, if our actions alone define our reputation in the world, then we don’t even need any further bad press from the “jewish controlled media”!
Imagine if the US and international media were full of examples of moderate, liberal, reconciling Arabs (both Muslim and Christian) and examples of Arabs and Jews (including Israelis) learning to explore each other, and to co-exist, instead of Arabs in beards blowing themselves up.
I happen to believe that highlighting the postive aspects of Arab culture will serve to empower those of us who are hiding, scared shitless from the West and Israel lest they should implicate us by association, and our compatriots, lest they should implicate us as defectors. Those of us who have pride in our cultural and national origins, and who legitimately want to salvage from what it has become.
What if more positive images of Arabs (Christians and Muslims) in the media were to become a self- fulfilling prophecy? What if that would ignite a chain reaction that could maybe assist us to break out from this impasse?
Take someone like Hanan Ashrawy, who would have been a natural cultural ally for the West and for Israel. Why do Israel and Jews in diaspora go out of their way to vilify her, even thoush she is the most secular, modern Arab you can get?
Example: http://www.petitiononline.com/ppha1103/petition.html
The reason most Arabs would suggest, and not its not a conspiracy theory is this: if a modern, secular, liberal Arab is allowed a voice in the international media, then the world may start to think that “Arab” is not a genetic disease that you catch at birth! And it doesnt help that most secular, liberal, open minded Arabs who accept Israel, also happen to be pretty pissed off about the plight of the Palestinians.
So this is my question, is a liberal, non-radical, open minded, pro-Israeli exsitence Arab only accepted if they also happen to despite Palestinians such as our good host here? Could it be that if you happen to be a civlized, pro-democracy, anti-terrorism, pro-US, pro Israeli-Arab unity, who is just pissed off at the condition of the Palestinians, then all your good traits are ignored, and you are implicated and demonized?
One state? Two states? Who cares! The important thing is that we must all live in dignity.
When I dream big, I happen to think that Middle East would be a MUCH better if all the current borders were erased and Jews, Muslims, and Christians of the reigion would relegate their religion to the private realm, and join together in a secular, federal state whose formal languages are Arabic, Hebrew and English, and where members of each faith are free to practice in each and every country, even build synagogues in Saudi Arabia
But when I am realistic, I just think, how can we stop hating each other? How can we stop killing each other? How can we lift this curse that belies us?
June 25th, 2006 at 1:47 pm
Raccoon:
“The concept of an ethnic Jewish homeland is enshrined in Israeli national policy and reflected in many of Israel’s public institutions. The concept was codified in the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel on 14 May 1948 as well as in the Law of Return, which was passed by the Knesset on 5 July 1950, and stated “Every Jew has the right to come to this country as an oleh,” an “oleh” being an immigrant Jew [1]. This is intended to make citizenship easier to acquire for Jews.
If “This is intended to make citizenship easier to acquire for Jews” then your assertion that:
“Israel is a secular state” is inherently incorrect.
How can a secular state be biased in its citizenship vis-a-vis one religious group? Doesn’t that therefore make it a “theocracy”, which is fundamentally at odds with secularism?
June 25th, 2006 at 2:01 pm
I’d love to hear teez el erd’s opinion on all of this, or is this discussion too complicated and only for adults?
June 25th, 2006 at 2:21 pm
Sugar -
Heh. You have a good writing style - Raccoonish compliments to you
Now let me start, as always, from the end and work my way up.
There’s a bit of confusion here about what and who a Jew is. As you have see, Israel has been founded as the ethnic Jewish state. But Judaism is also a religion. Very confusing, this. Most ethnic Jews in Israel are atheists. And there are people of the Jewish religion who are not Jews by ethnicity.
This will take some clarification… you see, the Jewish religion is not about belief in God. It’s about fulfilling an ancient pact with a deity. According to this pact, a Jew has 613 duties, which includes such bizzare things as not touching money on Saturdays and such mundane things as planting trees. the pact was signed with an ethnicity - the Hebrews, consisting of 12 clans. Consequentially, from the point of view of a religious Jew, all ethnic Jews are also religious Jews. If a Jew is an atheist they are just lax in fulfilling their obligations. If they have changed their religion to something else, they are a pact-breaker - traitor - who renegades on their promise. But they are still ethnic Jews and still are, therefore, obliged to fulfill the clauses of the pact. Moreover, a non-ethnic Jew signing the pact with God (becoming a religious Jew) is accepted as a kind of a foster member of the ethnicity as well.
Now, Israel is an ethnic homeland of the Jews. It has been founded on the notion that Jews have been deprived of this homeland and now can have it back, if they want. So immigration (or “aliyah” - ascent) of Jews (both ethnic and religious because converts are foster members of the ethnicity) to Israel is made as easy as possible and is encouraged as much as possible. Immigration of non-Jews, on the other hand, is possible but not automatic, and it takes some time to get citizenship (5 years as a resident, I think - I have a French Christian uncle, and that’s about the time it took him to get citizenship).
So, as you can see, Israel is not a theocracy (as much a bunch of religious weirdos would like it to be). Nor is it an immigrants country - it’s an ethnicity-based state, like Finland or Italy.
June 25th, 2006 at 2:27 pm
Next. Neturei Karta and 100 Gates Jews.
These guys are basically religious nutcases. They believe that the only the Messiah can allow the return or Jews to Israel. Neturei Karta believe that having a Jewish state without a Messiah for a king is blasphemy, and such a state should be destroyed at all costs. 100 Gates people believe that Israel is simply irrelevant since it doesn’t have the Messiah as a king, and they ignore Israel’s existence as much as they can.
They’re creepy. They would also kill me if they could because I am an ethnic Jew who’s not a religious Jew, but rather a Discordian.
June 25th, 2006 at 2:52 pm
The reason for opposition to Hanan Ashrawi is obvious from the link you provided: she’s a memeber of the PLO and a defender of its policies and actions. The policies are openly made to pursue one agenda - the destruction of Israel. The actions are terrorism and anything else that PLO believes might help them achieve their goal. I hope you can see why these policies and actions are viewed with some displeasure by people who would like Israel to continue surviving.
Next: the plight of the Palestinians. It’s a discussion of tremendous length, but in brief I will state the following: the Palestinians are making it very difficult for people to help them (by electing Hamas, for instance, or cheering terrorists). And since the Arab League sees them officially as a weapon against Israel, it’s even more difficult.
Next: the demonization of Arabs and Muslims in the Western media. The PC frenzy gripping the West at the moment make it very difficult for people to differentiate right from wrong. The terrorists always speak for all the Muslims and all the Arabs; resistance to such notions from the general Arab and Muslim public is abysmally scarce. The media is unwilling to discuss the actual problems of the Arabic people and of Islam, leaving it to the imaginations of the masses. Since masses have little to no imagination and they get no explanation for Arabic and Islamic misbehavior, they tend to think that these groups are just inheritantly bad. Alternatively, some choose to believe that it’s the other way around and that Arabs and Muslims are inheritantly good and thus any negativity against these groups is a sign of evil.
In much the same vein, the IL/PA relations tends to be simplified to black and white grainy notions, since the media is flooded with bullshit about the conflict and the people involved in it. Combine this with the paragraph above, and it becomes apparent that for the masses you can be either pro Israel or pro Palestinian, with each option including being against the other side.
June 25th, 2006 at 2:57 pm
Factual error their Raccoon on the PLO:
In 1988 the PLO charter was amended to recognise Israel and consign its objectives to the creation of a Palestinian state alongside it. In 1993, PLO chairman Yasser Arafat recognized the State of Israel in an official letter to its prime minister, Yitzhak Rabin. In response to Arafat’s letter, Israel recognized the PLO as the legitimate representative of the Palestinian people.
If Israel itself recognized the PLO, how does that make Ashrawy the butt of Israeli ire?
June 25th, 2006 at 3:03 pm
Now, Sugah, you keep alluding to the hidden powers of the Jews. Seriously, Jews are far from being omnipotent. Nor do they control “the media”, the banks, assorted governments and secret societies. Jews are disproportionally successful, I think, because culturally, education and intelligence and the most sought-after traits in a Jew (and if you do not become a lawyer, a doctor or a scientist your mother gives you shit for eternity
).
If you want someone to have a significant impact on the media, try convincing the Murdoch family patriarchs
June 25th, 2006 at 3:05 pm
Murdoch is married to a hot young Asian! Lucky him
June 25th, 2006 at 3:14 pm
Sugah… it wasn’t amended. The PLO charter, that is. I wish it was… but read it for yourself:
http://www.pna.gov.ps/Government/gov/plo_Charter.asp
June 25th, 2006 at 3:19 pm
Did I answer everything?
June 25th, 2006 at 3:27 pm
It WAS ammended for the better. Did you read the Ammendments at the bottom of the Charter?
“Amendments
In a letter to Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, Yasser Arafat stated that those articles which denied Israel’s right to exist or are inconsistent with the PLO’s new commitments to Israel following their mutual reognition, were no longer valid (see Oslo peace process).
The PNC met in a special session on 26 April 1996 to consider the issue of amending the Charter and adopted the following decision:
A. The Palestinian National Charter is hereby amended by canceling the articles that are contrary to the letters exchanged the P.L.O. and the Government of Israel 9-10 September 1993.
B. Assigns its legal committee with the task of redrafting the Palestinian National Charter in order to present it to the first session of the Palestinian Central Council.
The decision was adopted by a vote of: 504 in favor, 54 against, and 14 abstentions.
On January 1998, Yasser Arafat sent a letter to US President, Bill Clinton, outlining the implications of this decision in terms of the specific articles of the Charter that were nullified or amended as a result of that decision. In December 1998, both the PLO Executive Committee and the PLO Central Council reaffirmed this decision”
June 25th, 2006 at 3:32 pm
Raccooner My Man, and just to be super sure, her are the amendments as published by the UN:
http://www.palestine-un.org/plo/pna_one.html
June 25th, 2006 at 3:46 pm
Sugah - they agreed to amend, but didn’t. That’s the problem. That’s why the Charter is not actually amended, but merely notes that amendments were agreed upon. Just ask Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades
When and if they actually do amend, this will be valid. So far it’s just a load of blah blah with nil actions.
Hey, it certainly is better than the Hamas charter… but from the Israeli perspective, not by much.
June 25th, 2006 at 3:59 pm
But I digress, as usual.
Modernization and secularization of the Arab and/or Muslim states can only come from the inside. And at the moment, the trend I see is quite the opposite.
So Israel sits tight, prepares for war (which seems likely with the likes of MB and assorted pawns of the Iranian regime) and hopes for the best.
June 25th, 2006 at 6:14 pm
Dude, I am telling you they amended the freaking Charter! Are you selectively interpreting facts? The quality of the “stuff” across the red sea seems to be deteriorating
I think your final posting is quite scary Raccoon. Don’t you think it sounds a lot like the terminal pessimism of the other side?
Don’t you find it disgusting when Islamic fanatics say: “Israel needs to reform from within and to unilaterally wtihdraw from the occupied territories. In the mean time, we shall sit tight, and prepare for the holy war against the infidel.”
I am sorry, but you don’t engage in dialogue by “sitting tight” and “preparing to go to war.” It seems to me every body on both ends of the spectrum has been so tainted with blood thirst, that it has becpme acceptable to view death and carnage as standard collateral damage.
We are in bloody 2006, and it does not seem that we have evolved one bit. We are still inferior to animals. Can’t you see that it is the killing that is pushing us further to the brink? The death of innocent Palestinians is dispecable. The death of innocent Israelis is dispecable. In fact, even the death of Israeli soldiers in occupied Palestinian lands is terribly sad, and completely avoidable.
Thank you for engaging in this interesting and enlightening debate. Thankfully, I have many other wonderful Jewish and Israeli friends who are not sitting tight “preparing for war” or rationalizing WMDs, and who leave me feeling a little optimistic about where our part of the world is heading.
If more of us start taking the onus of responsibility and extending our hands to the “others”, maybe one day our children (more likely, grand, grand, grand children!) will one day look at their ancesters and laugh at how stupid we were, and how the solutions to our most vexing problems were so simple, so obvious, and conclusive.
As I said at the start of this debate, hating, condeming, being victimized, criticizing, insulting, fighting, killing, repudiating, vilifying, and demonizing are the easiest things to do.
Rising above that and attempting to impact positive change are the real challenges that require courage. And that is why it has taken us more than 50 years and we are still no better than where we were then. But I am forever optimistic!
Be’koach - Be’shalom
Lehit!
June 25th, 2006 at 6:50 pm
Sugah -
I applaud your optimism. My outlook is more along the “carpe diem” lines. What gives you hope?
You apparently misunderstood my remark about sitting tight and preparing for war. S’just the way the situation is, the way the collective consciousness seems to perceive it and the way the policies of the Israeli government are determined. Unilateral withdrawal is exactly what Israel is trying to do - to consolidate and close the borders.
An important note - Israel is not preparing to GO to war. Israel prepares for war to come to Israel. The general assumption is that it’s only a matter of time before it’s attacked again.
A little explanation, BTW. Israel (in this context) is a state of some 6 million citizens on a small piece of (chiefly) desert and mountain terrain. A Raccoon (Procyon Lotor) is a small, furry, omnivorous mammal with a ringed tail and a silly bandit’s mask around the eyes. Ergo: Israel is not Raccoon. And Raccoon is not Israel
About the charter - I didn’t research it in depth, I’m afraid. From what I have seen on the official PLO website, I reached the conclusions that I did. I also remember Yasser “Janus” Arafat’s behavior (saying he’s all for peace and coexistence in English while saying he’s all for war and the destruction of Israel in Arabic). But I’ll take your word for it. I guess it’s kind of like mental inertia at work - people are having difficult time remembering that the leopard has changed it’s shorts
The funny bit, BTW, is that there is no “other side”. We are all one big fat Middle East, and our fates are intertwined. As such, we all appear to be equally buggered.
I still don’t understand what you expect Israel and Israelis to do, in practical terms. Any Israeli initiative seems to be perceived as an Evil Zionist ™ conspiracy. Even non-Israeli initiatives are seen as Evil Zionist ™ conspiracies, like bringing UN troops to Sudan to calm the situation down.
Karim ElSahy and his brothers on onearabworld.blog.com have an interesting notion of bloggers exchange, but I doubt it would work very well…
BTW, check out the new Israeli film “The Bubble”. Sounds promissing
June 25th, 2006 at 6:51 pm
And remember the Israeli proverb:
Im lo ani li, mi li?
Salaam
June 25th, 2006 at 7:31 pm
Raccoon, Sugar and Spice:
WOW!!! Great dialogue!
Sugar, you got it wrong as far as the PLO charter is concerned:
- The intact charter is still displayed at Web sites of the Palestinian Authority, with separate references to letters annulling sections that are not in agreement with the Oslo accords, but without specifying which sections are annulled.
- The Fatah constitution still calls for the destruction of Israel. Fateh is the main part of the PLO.
- Crucially, Fatah and Al Aksa Martar Brigade behaviour proves that their objective is nothing short of the destruction of Israel, come what may. Todays
threat to use chemical weapons is but one example.
——
On the key issue that you are raising, Americans are already doing a lot to bring freedom to Middle East - check out Iraq. Sadly, we have not seen Arab forces of good sweeping to power and defeating Muslim extremests.
June 25th, 2006 at 8:28 pm
Evil Zionist ™ Darn I thought I would trade mark it first!
What do I want Israel to do?
Well here is an abridged list:
1. Empower the pro-peace movement in Israel so they are a viable force that can reach out to their counterparts in the Arab world with dignity and respect, rather than be perceived as a group of lily livered, communist, sell outs.
2. Rather than viewing Arabs and Muslims as a monolithic force bent at the destruction of Israel, identify the elements within the Arab and Islamic world that accept a peaceful coexistence, and invest as much money and resources as you can to bolster these people in the international media. - - just as much as you spend on oiling your PR machine to ensure that the West is sympathetic to your cause.
Arabs and Muslims who are living in the dark ages need heroes, and they need to be lead by example. If all we see on TV is bin laden and his Usual Suspects, we will begin to believe that this is the only contribution we can make. Even Jews and Israelis need to start believing that there are those amongst us who are willing not just to live with Israel, but to thrive with Israel.
If you humiliate us and demonize us, we will have no self respect. Believe me, it is in your interest that we have pride in our cultural roots. The more confident Arabs and Muslims will be in their heritage, the less needy they will be to define themselves against the West, Christians, Jews, and Israel.
3. Indirectly (and you are the masters of that!), bear leverage on Arab societies to start reforming their education systems so that they are factories for democrats, free thinkers, and humanists, rather than the religious fanatics, shit-gulping sheep that they are.
4. If religion must be used, identify moderate, liberal Islamic theologians in the world and try to build synergy based on the Judeo-Christian-Islamic faiths. There is so much shit in these three religions that are similar, I could have sworn it was one dude who drafted the first script!
5. Use secular capitalism as the basis of further unity between commercial interests across the borders of Israel and its Arab neighbors. I am not talking about the spastic forced quotas triangulated by Egypt, the US, and Israel say I the textile industry, but I am talking a real, living, organic breathing commercial grid, fundamentally based on the activities of small businesses. In Egypt for instance, the so- called private sector is comprised of either Muslim Brotherhood capital, or large scale business conglomerates in bed with the National Democratic Party and Mubarak’s possy. This is not who you should be interested in. At all. Young Israeli entrepreneurs should be speaking to their counterparts in Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, and Morocco thinking of ways they can create serious money together. Think entertainment, tourism, technology, desert agriculture, etc.
6. Help Arabs rid themselves from the evil forces of religious fanaticism that was planted in the region by so many insidious forces throughout history. There are many theories about the genesis of the Muslim Brotherhood, including that it was inspired in Egypt by the British occupying forces as an antidote to rising Egyptian secular nationalism that was seeking to end the British colonial campaign in Egypt. Even more radical schools of though actually believe that it was an arm of Nazi Germany.
http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/Fascist%20Roots%20of%20Al-Qaeda.html
In more contemporary times, I would like to point the finger to Saudi Arabia as the source of all evil, and as the instigator, supporter, of radical Wahabi Islam that has devoured secular Arab culture, to the silent acquiescence of corrupt Arab regimes who would rather see religiosity proliferate rather than democracy, as the latter is seen as a real threat to their corrupt autocracies. Essays, books, and numerous theories can point to how over and over again, radical Islam was used by various factions to achieve their self-serving goals in the Middle East. Afghanistan any one?
Now that radical Islam has turned ugly, those who helped create it in the first place are pretending they know nothing about it and attributing it to the fundamentally “violent” nature of the religion. Any one who is remotely interested in preempting a clash of civilizations between Islam and the rest of the world, Israel included, should therefore have a stake in dismantling orthodox Islam, and assisting Muslims in the long term project of modernizing their faith and eventually relegating it to the “private” relam. Killing terrorists is okay, but murdering innocent bystanders (Iraq, Palestine, etc) is not a good ice breaker.
How can Israel help in that respect? Twist the arms of the US and other powerful nations to start twisting the arms of Arab states to once and for all dismantle this network of hate. Just as you were not aware that the PLO had amended its charter, I am sure many Israelis are blind to the fact that there are thousands of malleable, Muslim scholars in the Arab world and the West who are open, even thirsty for dialogue.
The biggest problem facing Muslims who are key to modernize their religion and to bring it in line with the modern world, is the closure of the door of ijtihad (not to be confused with Jihad!). Ironically, the concept of ijtihad (interpretation and reasoning based on the sacred texts) holds within it the primary key for the reinvention of a brand of Islam that is compatible with the modern world.
“Many Muslims believe that they must choose between Islam and modernity or between Islam and democracy, but these are false choices. To reinterpret Islam for the twenty-first century, the practice of ijtihad must be revived.”
Here is an amazing article about the prospects of reformation in Islam:
http://www.usip.org/pubs/specialreports/sr125.html
This is the approach that the whole world should be pushing Muslim scholars to adopt.
7. Export some hot Israeli chicks to the four corners of the Arab and Islamic world whose mission is to get every frustrated Arab young man laid
June 25th, 2006 at 8:36 pm
Keda Bardo is Sugar and Spice
BTW, thanks for your compliments on my writing style! Every one here is far more eloquent than I am!
June 26th, 2006 at 1:41 am
Sugah - before I address your points (and address them I will), I must once again stress the following:
A little explanation, BTW. Israel (in this context) is a state of some 6 million citizens on a small piece of (chiefly) desert and mountain terrain. A Raccoon (Procyon Lotor) is a small, furry, omnivorous mammal with a ringed tail and a silly bandit’s mask around the eyes. Ergo: Israel is not Raccoon. And Raccoon is not Israel
To demonstrate -
A picture of Israel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Satellite_image_of_Israel_in_January_2003.jpg
And here’s a picture of me on a vacation in Illinois, USA: http://dnr.state.il.us/orc/wildlife/virtual_news/images/raccoon/raccoon_on_snow.jpg
Again, I stress the point that I (Raccoon) am not Israel. Nor do I control Israel is any significant way (yet).
So far so good?
June 26th, 2006 at 4:51 am
You could have fooled me, but I still see a resemblance! You just had some work done, a litttle nip and tuck here - But okay, so far so good
June 26th, 2006 at 7:25 am
Racooon, I need to state my own disclaimer as well. The fact that I am expecting a lot of Israel and making multiple demands DOES not mean that I expect Arabs to sit on their asses and do nothing. But since I am having this discusson with you and our other Israeli friends, I am focusing on that part. I don’ want some smart ass to fault me at that
In fact, Arabs have a far bigger responsibility, but as the saying goes, it takes to perform great oral sex!
Lata!
June 26th, 2006 at 2:04 pm
OK, here’s my detailed answer:
1) To the best of my knowledge, practically ALL Israelis are pro-peace. There is some disagreement as for what will make peace actually possible. Broadly speaking, there are two pervailing approaches; convergence and dialogue. The proponents of convergence believe that the only way peace will become attainable is by closing the borders, isolating Israel from all enemies and having sufficient deterrence power to prevent any attacks from happening. The proponents of dialogue believe that the only way to go is by convincing Israel’s enemies to stop trying to destroy Israel.
1b) There is a large “PC class” in Israel - basically a group of lily livered, communist sell outs
These people have little or no connection to actual reality, and their opinions and proposed solutions are based on intellectual fashion trends.
2) There is the conspiracy problem. Anything the Jews do is considered a conspiracy to harm the Arabs, Muslims or whomever. Moreover, the moderate elements in Islamic societies tend to become a head shorter than anyone else real quick. And if any connection to Israel is suspected, I fear that unnecessary cosmetic operations in the neck area would be the least of their problems.
3) See 2.
4) There are attempts to do so. Unfortunately, these are ruined by PCness from one side and Islamist death threats and fatwas from the other.
5) This is a very good idea, currently being successfully implemented in Jordanian-Israeli relations. Personally, I believe that the Arab world could benefit from Israeli canned “Achla” humous - it’s superior to anything mass-produced in the ME
6) I have serious doubts about Israel’s arm-twisting power… + see 2
7) Dude, it would mean about 50 Muslims for every Israeli girl. Let’s have an Arabic sexual revolution instead. Lebanon seems to be heading this way
To conclude: Israel’s current potential role in modernization and secluralization of the Arab/Muslim world is severely limited by various factors, outlined above.
There are, however, two processes currently ongoing - the erosion of PCness in Europe and the rise of secularism in the Islamic world on one hand, and rising PC hysteria among the European ruling classes combined with rising militant Islamic fundamentalism in the Islamic world on the other. Sooner rather than later these sociopolitical forces will clash massively. The outcome will determine the fate the world.