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Thursday, 29 Jun 2006
"No leader should put troops into the field merely to gratify his own spleen;
no leader should fight a battle simply out of pique. But a kingdom that has once
been destroyed can never come again into being; nor can the dead ever be brought
back to life. Hence the enlightened leader is heedful, and the good leader full
of caution."
Sun Tzu, the Art of War
Israeli forces arrested nearly one-third of the Hamas-led Palestinian
Cabinet and 20 lawmakers early Thursday and pressed their incursion
into Gaza, responding to the abduction of one of its soldiers.
[...]
No deaths or injuries were reported in the Israeli actions. But the
warplanes knocked out Gaza's electric power plant, raising the specter
of a humanitarian crisis. The Hamas-led government warned of "epidemics
and health disasters" because of damaged water pipes to central Gaza
and the lack of power to pump water.
[...]
Adding to the tension, a Palestinian militant group said it killed an 18-year-old Jewish settler kidnapped in the
West Bank.
Israeli security officials said Eliahu Asheri's body was found buried
near Ramallah. They said he was shot in the head, apparently soon after
he was abducted on Sunday.
"Can anyone tell me how the palestenians accept to live liek this ? what
kind of a government that has no dignity, controled by Israel, no army,
no police, no life, no future, and they still say it is a country and a
government, SHU HAL MASKHARA, CLOSE THIS STUPID GOVERNMENT AND CARRY ON
THE WEAPONS AND FIGHT, FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT, FINISH THIS
THEATER, LOT OF MONEY, LOT OF DEAD PEOPLE, BIG TRAGEDY, HOW MANY YEARS
YOU WILL STILL BE LIKE THIS, LOOK WHAT HAPPENED IN LEBANON, THEY
DEFEATED ISRAEL, BUT AT THE END MOST OF THE PALESTINEANS AR E KHAWANA,
, KHAWANA, WE ARE SICK OF YOU AND YOUR NEWS, WHAT ARE YOU WAITING,
ALWAYS CRYING FOR MORE HELP FROM OTHER ARAB COUNTRIES, LIKE A BABIES,
YOU ARE PLAYING WITH THE FUTURE OF A WHOLE GENERATION, ITS BETTER FOR
YOU TO DIE THAN LIVING LIKE THIS, WAKE UP WAKE UP. THANKS ALARABIYA FOR
POSTING."
Me: Dude, this is bad
Me: The Jews aren't like us
Me: They actually care for the lives of their own.
B: We care for the lives of our own
Me: 7ayqleboh el donia 3alashan el 3ayell dah (They will turn the world upside down to get that soldier back).
B: But no one else does!
Me: Then Habibty, release the kid
Me: The prisoners document gives pretext to the whole recognizing Israel thing
Me: Without actually recognizing it
Me: It's the way out of the boycott
Me: Why bring it all down by kidnapping a kid now?
Me: What purpose will it serve
B: I don't know
B: Well they think they are trying to make some sort of point, I suppose.
Me: I suspect its the Mesh3el wing who did it.
B: Akeed. (Most definitely)
Me: It's no coincidence that they kidnap him as the others sign the agreement.
B: They are always sabab el masayeb (cause of calamities).
Me: the one that Mesh3al so strongly opposed.
Me: It's all fucked
B: yup
Me: that being said
B: ya..
Me: and coming from an egyptian who lives in a country that doesn't value his life or the lives of the 75 million other egyptian who inhabit it
Me: I kind of envy how much theycare about their own
B: ya…
Me: I mean, I get it, they are few in numbers anyway
B: who? Israel?
Me: bas leih a7nah mesh kedah (But why aren't we like that?)
B: 3alashan a7na 7aywanat (Cause we are animals)
Me: That's not good enough!
Me: It's too simplistic ya B
Me: And I refuse to believe it!
B: Then give me a better explanation!
Me and B. on messenger yesterday!
In a clear warning to Syrian President Bashar Assad, Israeli
airplanes flew ovecr his seaside home near the Mediterranean port city
of Latakia in northwestern Syria, military officials confirmed, citing
the "direct link" between his government and Hamas. Israeli television
reports said four planes were involved in the low-altitude flight, and
that Assad was there at the time.
Syria confirmed Israeli warplanes entered its airspace, but said its air defenses forced the Israeli aircraft to flee.
"Yes, yes, the Syrian air defenses forced the israelis jets-traveling at mach 3, to flee. Sure. Who the fuck are they kidding?"
My Co-worker, S.
"walla, what did hamas expect, they should stop acting like children,
and then cry for the world to help them after they get themselves into
trouble. The people in gaza have enough troubles than to be occupied
again due to the stupid, irresponsible actions of hamas idiots."
Another Al Arabiya comment
"This is incredibly stupid. They will lose whatever land they had because of this. What are they thinking? (Pause) You know what Sharon once said? He said that what Israel needs to do is to stick to its guns for another 30 years. By that time most of the Oil will be gone, and there will be no more money for the arabs to buy weapons with, or wage war on anyone. And that's when they will get the rest of that land. Mark my words. In 30 Years they will have all of Ghaza again, and all the palestinians will be out, and no one will be able to do anything."
The Girl Yesterday
"Those
who excel in war first cultivate their own humanity and justice and
maintain their laws and institutions. By these means they make their
governments invincible."
Sun Tzu, the Art of War
"Imagine, This could've all ended if the Palestinain enterd the Camp David agreement with us. The whole thing would've been different now had they done that. I swear to god Sadat is the only arab leader who ever used his brain. Had he not done this, we would be just like Syria now. They would've kept Sinai occupied, and we would be putting in the media how we are going to crush them and blah blah blah, while we live in the worst kind of opression under that moron Bashar. No wonder the syrian people don't want to let go of lebanon; their lives in Syria sucks. That's the only place they can breathe."
My co worker, H.
"sooner or later the time will come and the land will inshallah be free. alah akbar alah akbar"
Another comment at Al Arabiya
Yeah, sooner or later this will be over, one way or another!
sigh….
June 29th, 2006 at 10:12 am
who is B and did you find a better explaination?
history supports B’s arrgument that we are animals by the way
June 29th, 2006 at 10:46 am
Well, I can’t see enough from B’s talk to be sure about his views.
It’s clear that if the Palestinians had a leader like you or like Sadaat, then by now they’d not only have a country, but a flourishing, thriving one and their only battles with Israel would be in football and in soccer.
Speaking as an Israeli, even while rooting for the Israeli teams, I’d applaud the Palestinian teams when they win, cheering them for having come a long way.
As it stands, I think Olmert is less than useless and that Israel should have declared that by killing two soldiers and kidnapping a 3rd from Israeli territory, Hamas has carried out a hostile act of war (as opposed to simply letting other groups fire rockets into Israel and blow up civilians). Israel’s response should have been:
A: To declare a full scale war on Hamas. If Gaza wants war, then Gaza will look like a war-zone! (Of course, the war will also include Islamic Jihad, Al-Aqsa Brigades, etc).
B: To give a deadline. If the soldier isn’t returned alive ’till then, the war will begin.
C: To declare the war will stop immediiately once the soldier is returned.
D: To explain that if the soldier is killed, the war will continue until there’s not enough left of Hamas to bomb. This will severely deteriorate Hamas’s (and others’) capacity to carry out further hostile actions, rocket firings, etc.
When the war begins, immediately begin bombing Hamas targets, from foot-soldiers to Hamas ministers.
I’m sure there are several Hamas officials who are in no mood to be next to die in military strikes and there’s a good chance they’ll act to free the soldier, citing “for the benefit of Palestinians” in order not to let it be too obvious they’re trying to save their own lives.
Either way, a future Palestinian Authority government will think ten times over before kidnapping anyone. Indeed, before participating in any hostile action.
No doubt, many (most, perhaps) of this blog’s readers will now either hate me or tell me that “this would only make Palestinians more extreme bla bla bla”. I could answer that, but my comment is already too long.
June 29th, 2006 at 11:37 am
Israel kept repeating that it is in a state of war to justify the extrajudicial killing and the murder of bystanders during this process. Now, in a state of war this soldier can not be called a kidnapped hostage he is a war prisoner. I believe that the only good thing that a government that cares for its citizens should do for a war prisoner is a prisoner swap not shelling the places where he might be kept! I think that the Palestinian in this particular case behave more rationally than Israelis do. There are 800 Palestinian detainees without charges, 300 women and 100 children below 16 in Israeli prisons. So the Palestinians captured an Israeli soldier to negotiate a prisoner swap. What is so infuriating in this?
SM, I do not think Israeli government worry that much about its people otherwise they would have done something effective, i.e. negotiate, to free the other prisoner who was executed yesterday. Olmert will exploit this case to show that he is a tough guy who can order the killing of tens of Palestinians to avenge the killing of an Israeli. The Israeli public would forget that the life of this human could have been saved by releasing some Palestinian women and children serving times without charges.
June 29th, 2006 at 11:51 am
Israel gave up on the peace process and opted to wall itself off from Palestine instead. Palestinians have yet to come to grips with that. They still think Israel gives a diddly squat whether they declare jihad or not. Fact is,Israel will sit securely behind its wall,while making periodic incursions to gather rockets and militants. Palestinians only hurt themselves with continued militancy. Until Palestinians get their minds right,there will be one economic hardship after another.
June 29th, 2006 at 12:47 pm
What can I say…I started writing several times and deleted it all.
The Hamas has made an own goal. Actions have consequences.
June 29th, 2006 at 12:49 pm
“SM, I do not think Israeli government worry that much about its people otherwise they would have done something effective, i.e. negotiate,”
LOL
“something effective” - “negogiate” with Palestinian Arabs. Can you point to a single example of where that method worked?
“to free the other prisoner who was executed yesterday.”
_Murdered_. I doubt the Hamas government wants responsibility for the death. An “execution” is when the government or other authority does it. But they will probably deny involvement.
“Olmert will exploit this case to show that he is a tough guy who can order the killing of tens of Palestinians to avenge the killing of an Israeli.”
Yeah, because Olmert gets rich by killing Arabs. Everybody knows that.
“Israel kept repeating that it is in a state of war to justify the extrajudicial killing and the murder of bystanders during this process. Now, in a state of war this soldier can not be called a kidnapped hostage he is a war prisoner.”
Which just goes to show how much negotiations with Palestinian Arabs are worth. There has been a truce. Kidnapping a soldier during a truce cannot easily be justified by claiming that there is a state of war (there is, but during a truce you are supposed to not act on that).
The same truce, btw, does not mean that Israel is not allowed to hunt down and shoot criminals; unless you want to claim that the Palestinian authority has been denying for years, namely that they and the terrorists are the same people!
You might also want to look up what “prisoner of war” means. The Palestinian authority would have to take responsibility for the act (rather than deny it) and the prisoner would have certain rights (including access to the red cross/star). He could then be exchanged for a Palestinian prisoner of war, IF the Arab side had ever fought the war according to the law (i.e. uniformed fighters that don’t specifically attack civilians).
As it is, the Palestinians are not granting him the rights of a prisoner of war, their government even denies involvement.
I wonder why you are using that as an argument when the Hamas government themselves deny it. That is a bit strange.
June 29th, 2006 at 12:52 pm
Amgad - How does one guard against “extrajudicial killing and the murder of bystanders during this process” when the terrorists are surrounded by children looking on? Hell, when my children were small I wouldn’t even let them out in the yard when the grass was being mowed to protect them from possible harm…
Take a look at some pictures from just the last two days shot by Reuters and the AP (hardly shills for Israel) as the “Gaza Militants” go about setting up land mines, carrying RPG’s and automatic weapons all with children in close proximity. Would you allow your children to stand near by someone busy planting a roadside bomb? Would you bring your son or daughter to a demonstration where terrorists were firing live rounds into the air? It is funny how the Palestinians expect way more protection for their children from the Israelis than they afford them themselves.
June 29th, 2006 at 12:56 pm
“Olmert will exploit this case to show that he is a tough guy who can order the killing of tens of Palestinians to avenge the killing of an Israeli.”
“No deaths or injuries were reported in the Israeli actions.” (From the quoted AP report)
“Now, in a state of war this soldier can not be called a kidnapped hostage he is a war prisoner.”
Two points to look at here. The soldier was taken in a cross-border raid by the Hamas-affiliated PRC. That in itself is an act of war, initiated by Palestinians. Yes, the soldier is a POW, but not because the Israelis have moved into Gaza. Second, the now dead 18-year-old civilian (reportly killed shortly after he was taken on Sunday) was not a POW. Nor was he a collateral casualty, victim of a stray shot in a combat zone. He was snatched and murdered by Palestinian thugs. No, I am not calling all Palestinians “thugs.” But I am saying that the persons (can’t call them “men”) that did this are thugs, thugs and murderers.
The problem is, these thugs and murderers are apparently the duly elected Palestinian government.
June 29th, 2006 at 1:00 pm
I had a conversation once with a Tunisian about how kidnappings and bombings are just savage and will not change anything. They always make it worse for the Arabs. He said,” Well yea, I agree, innocents should not be killed, but what do you want them to do? They don’t have the means to fight and that is the only thing they can do to revolt.” I said,” So do you consider 911 OK? He replied,” NO, but….” There is always a ‘but’ with us.
June 29th, 2006 at 1:06 pm
Viable points from both sides, I think.
One basic truth (imho) is that Palestine will not begin to move forward before they lay down their arms and get busy building up a viable democracy.
“But should we just let Israel oppress and mistreat us?” I hear you say… Yes. It worked for Ghandi, it’ll work for you. I’m not particularly pro-Israeli, but considering they don’t kill people from my part of the world and burn our flags and whatnot, they’re certainly higher on the list than their neighbours! However, if the palestinians stopped their foolishness and showed signs of moving forward, western sympathy would quickly turn their way should Israel persist with their heavyhanded treatment of them.
Only the west can help Palestine in it’s struggle for a normal existance, but untill they learn the old “don’t bite the hand that feeds you” this will not happen. Plain and simple.
June 29th, 2006 at 2:26 pm
The Israeli government is finally doing the right thing. We leave no man behind - and even scum like Peretz and Olmert know this. They are finally doing what they were elected to do - protect the Israeli citizens and do anything in our power to end this madness. And they are doing so in a just, respectable and sane manner. See http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=newsOne&storyID=2006-06-29T013909Z_01_L29258645_RTRUKOC_0_US-MIDEAST-ROCKET.xml
for constrast.
I only bemoan that I am a broken Raccoon and am no longer fit for service - it should have been me arresting these Hamas homicidal psychopaths, by Eris!
Gilad’s body will be retrieved in any way neccesary (for he is probably dead by now), and maybe the Palestinians will finally understand what terrorism will get them nowhere.
We live in interesting times.
June 29th, 2006 at 2:36 pm
if the palestinians stopped their foolishness and showed signs of moving forward, western sympathy would quickly turn their way should Israel persist with their heavyhanded treatment of them.
If the palestinians stopped their foolishness and showed signs of moving forward, Israel would have no *cause* to use a heavy hand.
Palestinians didn’t start to bitch because Israel began to use road blocks. Israel rather, began to use road blocks because Palestinains were blowing themselves up in their markets.
Cause and effect. If you are attacking a neighboring country, don’t be surprised when they no longer wish to allow you entry. And don’t cry it’s a violation of human rights either, cause no one has a basic *right* to enter just any country they chose if they are not citizens.
Israel also is not merely withholding tax funds from the PA. Israel was, in fact, using that money to pay for the power and water it was continuing to send into the territories. i.e. allowing the basic necessities for the ordinary Palestinians to continue by using the PA’s money to pay for it.
I love how they bitch and moan every time Israel fires rockets into Gaza while blindly ignoring that there are daily rocket firings *out* of Gaza into Israel.
The wall? Yah. Bout freakin time Israel found a way to keep the terrorists out of the country. Isn’t being blown up while on a bus to work a much greater violation of human rights than simply having a wall in your back yard because your fellows won’t *stop* blowing themselves up on busses and in markets and weddings and shooting children in their beds?
Everything Israel has done that has been decried as “violation of Palestinian human rights” has been in *direct response* to the actions of the Palestinians. The palestinians have violated their OWN rights.
June 29th, 2006 at 2:48 pm
How long can anyone put up with this stupidity ? If the Palestinians weren’t constantly screaming death to Israel then the kidnappings might be looked at by Israel as the workings of a fringe group of terrorists. If Hamas had spent the last months, since their election, working constructively with the Israelis for a equitable solution, then maybe Israel might feel that they might have a partner in Hamas, even if it remained ginger. None of this has happened, so who can blame Israel for saying, fuck it ! let me show you the consequences of not playing ball with us. There are limits to anyones patience when dealing with an insolent child that refuse to see the potential for progress, which is exactly how I see Hamas. When they were elected I had high hopes for progress, but very shortly after, I realized that like all of these terrorrist groups, facilitated by their non active supporters, they believe that their cause is only valid so long as they look and act like a bunch of whining martyrs. Stupid assholes, at least in Hamas’s case, they actually had the support of millions of Westerners and they fucked it up.
As for the release of all of the Palestinian children in Israeli jails, is Hamas aware ( as per SM post a few days / weeks past ) that many of these kids want to be in those jails ? This alone should cause Hamas pause that they are not doing anything that benefits the Palestinian people.
All very sad for the Palestinians because the shit their in just keeps getting deeper and deeper.
June 29th, 2006 at 3:13 pm
Adam B said, ““But should we just let Israel oppress and mistreat us?” I hear you say… Yes. It worked for Ghandi, it’ll work for you. I’m not particularly pro-Israeli, but considering they don’t kill people from my part of the world and burn our flags and whatnot, they’re certainly higher on the list than their neighbours! However, if the palestinians stopped their foolishness and showed signs of moving forward, western sympathy would quickly turn their way should Israel persist with their heavyhanded treatment of them. ”
Finally, a reasonable position from someone who isn’t really pro-Israeli, but who is obviously not one of the haters for hates sake. I don’t believe Israeli treatment of Palestinians is their fault - you can’t handle a live grenade with kid gloves. But the world needs to realize that Palestine has to accept responsibility for the actions of its people before Israel can even begin to negotiate with them again.
June 29th, 2006 at 3:15 pm
It’s particularly unfortunate for the decent Palestinians out there who do not have the midnset. But tehn, do they refelct the majority? Apparently not, else how would Hamas have ever gained control of the PA? What is happening was inevitable. Come on! There are TERRORISTS running the government! And as usual, the biggest price will be paid by those Hamas claims to represent.
June 29th, 2006 at 3:21 pm
You know, I’m 44 damn years old, and this shit has been on the telivision my entire freaking life.
How long?
I refuse to accept that Palestinians (or any other Muslim group) are “animals.” It’s obviously a bunch of dickheads raising their children to hate. Hate above all else — especially Allah!
I’m sick of it, but I just see no end to it. Maybe taking Palestinian children out of the hate-filled squalor and raising them with moderate, gentle families in Jordan or Israel or over here. Teach them everything that has been going on in their homeland since time immemorial, then send them back to sort the whole stupid thing out.
Huh …
Like that’s going to happen.
*sigh*
Oh well. On the plus side, I laughed when the fighter jets buzzed the Syrian president’s house. You just know they were Mach 2 and 100 feet! I bet it exploded every window in the place. “Helloooo! Just seeing if you were paying attention.” *snicker*
June 29th, 2006 at 3:27 pm
This is a real disaster. What good will kidnapping one single soldier do anyways?? Hamas is asking for it??
June 29th, 2006 at 3:28 pm
“But the world needs to realize that Palestine has to accept responsibility for the actions of its people before Israel can even begin to negotiate with them again. ”
Check this blog out:
http://a-mother-from-gaza.blogspot.com/
I think it is a long time coming based on the mindset of this blogger and her commenters.
BTW, I have been banned from this site because I had the nerve to point out that this conflict came about because Palestinian terrorists tunneled 1/4 mile into Israel, murdered two IDF, and kidnapped a third… Previously, I had asked the site owner to consider the possibility that the horrendous loss of life on the Gaza beach was due to a Palestinian arms cache exploding and not an Israeli rocket. I also asked her to consider what good could be accomplished if the same time, energy and resources were put to use making Palestine a better place rather than continuing to wage war on Israel.
It’s funny how a society that continues to tell the world that they are in a humanitarian crisis has money for rockets, land mines and automatic weapons. It’s like a drunk telling the landlord that he doesn’t have the rent money…
June 29th, 2006 at 3:45 pm
I don’t mean to be flippant, but you know what’s really sad about this whole thing? There are millions of beautiful women from Morocco to Pakistan and we (the world, including the Umma) never get to see them because they are: 1) often veiled; and 2) irrelevant to anything but domestic duties. That’s an absolute shame. I think it’s time that men just got the fuck out of the way and let women start running things. If men, particularly ME men, depend on women so much to make their homes, what does that say about their countries? If any beautiful, but repressed/oppressed, ME girl wants to spend some time in wonderfully chilly S.F. (actually a balmy 65F today!), she’s more than welcome.
June 29th, 2006 at 3:47 pm
I really dont believe it will ever be over. We will watch this fighting in different forms for the rest of our lives. As long as their is a Palestinian diaspora population around the world. Regardless I think both sides enjoy the fight, it gives them something to occupy their time with.
June 29th, 2006 at 4:09 pm
Palestinians Suffering From Their Own Culture
Is the soldier an excuse or the reason for the incursion? Perhaps a little of both. But unfortunately, a Palestinian culture of self pity, corruption, terrorism, hatred, and an inability to look within their society and within themselves for solutions,…
June 29th, 2006 at 4:25 pm
The fuckers want a war. And they’ll bloody well will have one on their hands. You read the comments that are posted on Al Arabiya; it’s my misfortune to be the one who deletes inflammatory comments on an influental Israeli site. And, let me tell you, I’ve never seen it so bad.
In the past four days I’ve had to delete at least 300, possibly more, messages calling for the utter annihiliation of the Palestinians. As in genocide. They used to speak of the “Arab Street”; well, there’s an Israeli street as well, and it’s aflame. I don’t think it’s been this bad since that series of suicide attacks in early 1996.
And the street influences the leadership. Our generals are wolves now, bred during five years of unrelenting war waged against Israeli citizens. They’re all seek, destroy, and use maximum force.
And you know what? I no longer blame them. I participated in many demonstrations, fighting - as an Israeli leftist - for the right of the Palestinians to their own state. Not so long ago, this was not so common sense as it is today, and it was enough to get you beat up.
I’m not complaining about that - I took a calculated risk - but of the insipid quality of Palestinian leadership. Gaza was a test case. We pulled out, and my grandchildren will still be paying compensation for the settlers. That’s fine; we put those pests there in the first place. But couldn’t the idiots see that if they screwed that one, not a single inch of Palestinian land in the West Bank will be yielded?
They fired those stupid rockets, the Qassams, at Sderot. 10 kilos range. No sovereign country would stand up to that. So: the IAF hits Gaza. Hard. Misses from time to time, killing plenty of civilians. And still the rockets keep flying. .
Don’t the idiots on the other side of the fence understand that, if this keeps on, no sane Israeli would give up the West Bank? 10 kilos: that’s the range from Qalqilya to Netanya, from Tul Karem to Petah Tikva. No one would give them the chance.
For once in our lifetime, we went to elections - barely three months ago - and elected a coalition of parties that said it will give the West Bank - because it is our own interest. The Israeli right-wing splintered, and a large chunk of it joined the left.
And then, Qassams. The support for Olmert has dropped to 30# or so - as did the support from the withdrawal. From 60% to 30% in three months. Great job, morons.
And then they kidnapped a soldier. So there’ll be a war. It will be unprecendented: Israel has arrested elected representatives of the Palestinians, and will gleefully assassinate Haniyeh. Oh, and by the way - remember that pastoral little town, Beit Hanoun? Where they used to lob Qassams from?
Odds are it won’t be there by Sunday. The IDF has ordered the population to flee, as he intends to seriously bombard the place.
Now, that is technically a war crime. On the other hand, so is firing Qassams at Sderot. And since 81% of Palestinians support the Qassams and the suicide bombers, you can forget about the Israeli left trying to prevent the army going “shock and awe” on Beit Hanoun. After all, odds are that 81% of its population erupt in joy when Hamas murders a hostage.
The Palestinian national sport was shooting themselves in the leg. In the last few weeks, they seem to have upgraded it to shooting themselves in the head, with a rocket launcher.
And it that soldier buys the farm - well, chances are most Israelis won’t object to a few Mai Lais.
Excellent post, BTW.
June 29th, 2006 at 4:42 pm
Interesting. Is this Yossi Gurvitz, the historian and Cthulhu buff?
June 29th, 2006 at 4:51 pm
Hi Sandmonkey,
I’ve been enjoying the site from here in New York. One thing I don’t understand: in the press, it seems that the Arabs or Muslims interviewed universally see this as one-sided problem, i.e. caused by Israel. Is this representative? Or is there a significant portion of people who see this as a dispute between two sides, with both partially at fault? And what kind of people are more likely to hold these views?
June 29th, 2006 at 4:52 pm
Impressive, the fact that 800 people are denied their freedom passed unnoticed by all pro Israel guys!!!!!!! Well since these 800 persons are Palestinians they must have done something bad though Israel herself does not know what it is. The Palestinians want their women and children freeeeeeeeeee. That is all.
June 29th, 2006 at 5:03 pm
Yossi Gurvitz, the same change in attitude is happening here in the west amoung people I never thought would ever leave supporting the Palestinians. I have an Iranian friend who has lways been very anti Israel, yesterday he said that the Palestinians crossed the line this time and will get exactly what they are asking for. A war no one can save them from. Hamas is so into their own glory and power that they have sacarificed their own people for this.
June 29th, 2006 at 5:11 pm
I think Hamas is very clever. It was afraid for the referendum, it is afraid to be forced to recognize Israel, and it will do everything possible to keep heating things up in order to let the Palestinians hate Israel even more because of the retalliations it’ll be forced to enact.
Hamas is 1 thing and 1 thing alone: no matter what happen, how many people will have to die for it: never recognize Israel.
This is beautiful, Sam - and so bloody true:
“Those who excel in war first cultivate their own humanity and justice and
maintain their laws and institutions. By these means they make their
governments invincible.”
Sun Tzu, the Art of War
Poor Palestinians. I wish for them better days to come. I truely do…
Tse.
June 29th, 2006 at 5:11 pm
Amgad -
Here’s a little info about the poor, defenseless, innocent Palestinian women cruelly held by Israel for no reason whatsoever:
http://www1.idf.il/DOVER/site/mainpage.asp?sl=EN&id=7&docid=35064.EN
SM had a little article about the children, didn’t he?
And here’s a little bit more on the same topic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_suicide_bomber
Poor, innocent, defenseless children cruelly imprisoned by the Evil Zionists ™ for no reason whatsoever…
June 29th, 2006 at 5:16 pm
I think they’re poor, Raccoon
What kind of a life is that? Being cheated into believing that they’re dealing with the devil and the best thing they can do with their lives is to end it, taking as many “devils” with them as possible?
Of course they should be locked up. But still that doesn’t take away that they are victim of evil people just like “us” (Israeli’s) only they don’t realize it…
Tse.
June 29th, 2006 at 5:21 pm
Amgad - It is funny that previously on this blog a pro-Palestinian said that Israel should “negotiate” rather than use violence. I guess you disagree with that. In the case of your “innocent” Palestinian women, tunneling 1/4 mile into Israel, murdering 2 IDF and kidnapping one is justified? What ever happened to negotiation???
June 29th, 2006 at 5:24 pm
Fascinating thread………….
June 29th, 2006 at 5:30 pm
Ahmgad/Uchuck,
The soldier is not a prisoner of war. He’s a hostage. Either Palestinians are guilty of war crimes or they are guilty of terrorism. Take your pick.
Israel/Occupied Territories: Palestinian armed groups must release abducted Israeli soldier
Hostage taking, that is threatening to harm or continue to detain a detained person in order to compel a third party to do or abstain from doing something as a condition for their release, is expressly prohibited under international law. Such practice threatens the fundamental right to life, personal integrity and liberty, and is expressly prohibited by international humanitarian law. Under no circumstances is the taking of hostages justifiable.
My own view is that it’s both a war crime and terrorism. Hostage taking is classic terrorism, and there is NO difference between what the Palestinians have done the last few days and what AL Qaeda has been doing in Iraq the last few years.
The killing of the 18 year old settler was kidnapping and murder. Period. Enough moral equivalency. I hope Israel kills every HAMAS member they can find. The US would do no less with Al Qaeda, and HAMAS is no different from AL Qaeda.
June 29th, 2006 at 5:53 pm
Israel is a state of law, in a state of law people can not be detained without charges and they are innocent till proven guilty in a court of law. Unless the Israeli justice is a selective one this should apply to all individuals under the control of the state of Israel. Denying these rights to the Palestinians means one of two things 1- Palestinians are not human enough to in front of the Israeli justice to deserve its protection
2- Israel is not a state of law.
Why does not Israel just release who are detained without even being charged and save the life of this soldier?
June 29th, 2006 at 5:53 pm
Israel is a state of law, in a state of law people can not be detained without charges and they are innocent till proven guilty in a court of law. Unless the Israeli justice is a selective one this should apply to all individuals under the control of the state of Israel. Denying these rights to the Palestinians means one of two things 1- Palestinians are not human enough to in front of the Israeli justice to deserve its protection
2- Israel is not a state of law.
Why does not Israel just release those who are detained without even being charged and save the life of this soldier?
June 29th, 2006 at 5:55 pm
We live in interesting times.
is that you ment Apocalypse ?
June 29th, 2006 at 5:57 pm
> Take your pick.
The crowd of beggars, thieves and murderers in their tears again.
Born to be the ubermensch, they rob, deport and kill arabs like
other people would kill an annoying bug - but - watch what happens,
if some of their precious brethren - an accomplice of their pogromist
army gets caught by one these arab untermensch’s - pathetic with-
out limit.
Pee!
June 29th, 2006 at 6:13 pm
Amgad - I can only interpret your remarks by concluding that you think Israel should place a higher worth on Palestinian women and children than the Palestinians do… What responsibility do the Palestinians have on the protection of all life or, are they free to kidnap and murder without recourse and place their fellow citizens in harms way with violence?
Do you recognise that your argument is that of a coward? “We do no wrong, it’s the other guy who is bad.”
June 29th, 2006 at 6:17 pm
Yesterday the Syrians were claiming the overflight didn’t happen, so I guess it’s progress for them.
June 29th, 2006 at 6:31 pm
I have never claimed that the Palestinian armed movements are righteous angles. I was just drawing attention to some basic principles that sadly have disappeared from the mindset of both party whenever they think about the other. For example the reverence of life and freedom of all human beings. For Israelis it is ok to detain indefinitely detain hundreds of people without any legal processes underway, it is ok to incinerate children if they happen to be any where around a suspected militant. On the other hand, the Palestinians think it is ok to blow up Israeli teenagers in cafes since this might reduce the influx of immigrants who will convert into settlers and occupation force over night..
The Israelis forget that the Palestinian militants are intermingled with the Palestinian population as much as IDF personal is intermingled with the Israeli one. Having 300,000 active military personal in a population of 5 million means that there is not a single district without a couple of people serving in the IDF. If Hamas militants and IDF officers are engaged in a war, as the spokesman of the IDF said int he CNN few day ago, then blowing the market in an area where some Israeli military personal live and dropping a on ton bomb on the residential are where a Hamas militant live are equivalent. However for a sane person both are heinous crimes taking into consideration the innocent human life that will be inevitably lost.
June 29th, 2006 at 6:33 pm
Craig, I will concede the point on the POW semantics. Does, in your opinion, the act of taking this soldier hostage by the PRC qualify as an act of war? (Serious question, not an attempt to piss you off.)
I see that eee has made a reappearance. May I suggest to all that we simply ignore his comments rather than letting this thread degenerate into insult and counter-insult?
June 29th, 2006 at 6:33 pm
Amgad said: “Israel is a state of law, in a state of law people can not be detained without charges and they are innocent till proven guilty in a court of law.”
Only to a point, when the state’s existence or the lives of its citizens are threatened, perceived or otherwise; then the responsibility of the state is to protect. Witness the USA and gitmo. Our courts are in crisis and the national debate rages over the government’s behavior–if you think Americans don’t take suspension of habeas corpus seriously, you are wrong! But, we aren’t the only nation to suspend “basic” civil liberties in a time of crisis. Plenty of others do and have. Unfortunately, written laws don’t implement themselves: human beings do. And human beings are subject to all the frailties of being human (gross errors in judgment, overreaction, prejudice, hate, fear, personal gain, etc., etc., etc.)
June 29th, 2006 at 6:45 pm
Amgad, I can’t agree with the moral equivalency of the two examples you provided. In my opinion blowing up a marketplace on the chance that someone there might be in the IDF is not the same as inflicting collateral casualties when trying to kill a specific person or persons with an airstrike. I realize we are going to disagree on this position and I am not calling you an idiot or slinging insults. I just disagree with your evaluation.
June 29th, 2006 at 6:47 pm
Amgad,
Israel is a state of law, in a state of law people can not be detained without charges and they are innocent till proven guilty in a court of law.
This is not true. Israel is in a state of war. Prisoners of War do not need to be charged with crimes, let alone convicted. In fact, it’s unheard of for a non-criminal combatant to be charged with a crime for participating in a war.
Really, these are not difficult concepts. Read the Hague and Geneva conventions. It’s all there, in black and white. The US supreme Court just ruled on the Gitmo detainess TODAY, as a matter of afct, and has ruled that they ARE prisoners of war, and has thus *prohibited* them from being tried in US civil courts. Now they will be either held for the duration without trial, or they will be charged by military tribunals.
Uchuck,
Craig, I will concede the point on the POW semantics.
I don’t consider it to be semantics, Uchuck. Hostages are not the same thing as Prisoners of War. That’s not a semantic difference.
Does, in your opinion, the act of taking this soldier hostage by the PRC qualify as an act of war? (Serious question, not an attempt to piss you off.)
Which part of the incident was not an act of war, in your opinion?
A) the invasion of Israeli territory
B) the attacks on/killing of Israeli soldiers
C) The kidnap of a wounded Israeli soldier
C is a war crime and an act of terrorism. A B & C were all acts of war. A & B were not criminal though.
June 29th, 2006 at 6:48 pm
By the way, Uchuck, in my opinion, Israel has been in a state of war continuously since 1948. So yet one more act of war by either side in the conflict is pretty irrelevant.
June 29th, 2006 at 7:06 pm
It’s at peace with Egypt and Jordan. One country it routinely humiliated for years, and the other had the sense to stay out or put up a weak fight. What’s funny about Syria is that if it tried to buzz Israel’s coast, its planes would get shot out of the sky, no questions asked. That’s right; Israel can buzz Syria, but not vice versa.
June 29th, 2006 at 7:08 pm
I would say it is less an act of war and more the final straw. Palestinian attacks, whether by Qassam or suicide bombers have been pretty much ongoing since 1948. And when Israel concedes a point or 2 during negotiations, do the terrorist attacks cease? No! They increase! When Israel retailiates, inevitably civilians are harmed. I will admit Israel is typically sloppy with their retaliations and should be held accountable, but they never target civilains, whereas civilains are the primary targets of Hamas and their ilk. And there is a big gulf between these two shortfalls.
So the time comes to say, “Screw it. Let’s go in there and do something about this.” I would say the term is less important than the action, and the action is more than necessary. Don’t tell a typical pro-Palestinian this. I have tried and tried to take their side and at least understand it. Yet if you even suggest Israel is justified in so much as shooting a rubber band at an Islamic Jihad member, they spout the same talking points ad nauseam. “I don’t support terrorists, but…” So I have thrown up my hands and given up any such advocacy. How much moreso the Israelis, whose men, women and children are all wearing targets on their heads? There is no single act of war, only a string of incidents that have been too long ignored. The Palestinians’ oppressors are looking right back at them whenever they look into a mirror. And until they realize that their stupid actions are only going to make things worse, they will not get this freedom that they claim the right to.
By the way, I love the Syria buzzing! They should do this weekly!
June 29th, 2006 at 7:10 pm
Nice Jewish Boy,
Syria would buzz Israel, but they are too big of panty waists to do it.
June 29th, 2006 at 7:18 pm
I really have a very difficult time siding with Palestine while they cry that the “oppressor” is hammering them. I wish for peace in the Mid East, please believe that… I do not see peace happening until the Palestinians stop waging war on Israel and start building a nation that will support its people.
Have you ever been in a personal situation where you were sure that the other party did you dirty? Have you ever decided to give up on it and build the best life that you could for yourself and your children? I have…
You know what? It worked out okay!
June 29th, 2006 at 7:25 pm
This was such an overblown reaction I can’t believe it. All this for one fucking soldier. Jeopardizing the lives of 1.3 million Palestinians who no longer have access to electricity and running water for one soldier?? I’m usually a supporter of Israel, but in this instance, Israel is asking for it. It is creating a humanitarian tragedy of epic proportions to free a single COMBATANT who’d been taken prisoner. There are better ways to procure his release. This will just drive more Palestinians towards hatred. Besides, it’s not like Israel hasn’t taken Palestinians prisoner so what’s the difference here. They take on Israeli captive and they come back and arrest diplomatic officials. That’s ridiculous.
June 29th, 2006 at 7:36 pm
The difference Middleastbeast is that Israel had removed itself from Gaza yet, the shelling continued on innocent Israeli villages. The difference is that Palestinian terrorists tunneled 1/4 mile into soverign Israeli territory, killing 2 and kidnapping 1. The difference is that Palestine has allowed the shelling of an innocent Israeli village with 100’s of Kassam rockets for quite a while. The border incursion was the final straw.
If you try to “switch the tables” and think of it in a opposing light, I really think that you would say it is time to stop this insanity…
June 29th, 2006 at 7:39 pm
There are better ways to procure his release.
And exactly WHAT would these better ways be?
June 29th, 2006 at 7:43 pm
You rock, sandmonkey!
June 29th, 2006 at 7:44 pm
There are better ways to procure his release.
And exactly WHAT would these better ways be?
Bring him back to life, first. He’s dead as a freakin’ doornail.
June 29th, 2006 at 7:51 pm
MEB,
There are better ways to procure his release.
No, there are not. He’s already dead, as far as I’m concerned. Just as the two American soldiers captured in Iraq were already dead, the minute they surrendered. They chose to die suffering, instead of to die fighting. I’d rather blow myself up with a grenade in hopes that I’d be able to kill one or more of the attackers in the process, than to surrender to an Arab. Or an Asian, for that matter. I’m an ex-Marine, and surrender has been against Marine Corps policy since the Bataan Death March in WWII. There are some cultures that you just don’t surrender too. Ever.
This will just drive more Palestinians towards hatred.
Is that even possible? How many Palestinian blogs do you read? I’ve never seen such blind murderous hatred than I have on the Palestinian blogs that iToot lists. In any case, that’s shouldn’t be a concern. That’s like the claim the US should not attack Al Qaeda because fighting back will just create more terrorists. It’s silliness to expect anybody to submit to terrorists. When has leniency for criminals ever reduced crime? Anywhere?
Besides, it’s not like Israel hasn’t taken Palestinians prisoner so what’s the difference here.
So, you’d be OK with Israel rounding up masses of Palestinians and threatening to kill them if all HAMAS members don’t surrender immediately, then?
That’s what the Nazis used to do, you know. Whenever one of their troops was killed by an insurgent, they’d kill a hundred randomly selected citizens from the neighborhood. Just line them up against the wall and mow them down. Is that what you think Israel should be doing? How about the US? Should the US fight terrorism/insurgency in Iraq by butchering the families and friends of the insurgents? I assume you’re OK with what seems to have happened in Haditha, then?
I find your thinking pretty faulty on this, MEB. Despite what you claim, Israel IS held to a higher standard than the Palestinians are.
June 29th, 2006 at 7:54 pm
Let’s face it: The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. Arafat had 95% of what he wanted at Camp David. What do they have now?
June 29th, 2006 at 8:17 pm
While it is easy to hold Israel to a higher standard, it begs the question:
What kind of government would risk its own people?
Isn’t there implicit trust in HAMAS that Israel doesn’t have the stomach for such carnage as they can wring?
If this is a cultural thing, then what does that say for the Arabs? And why don’t they stop it?
It is sad to use your own people as grist for the mill but then I never understood children suicide bombers either.
June 29th, 2006 at 8:35 pm
“This will just drive more Palestinians towards hatred.”
——————–
Isn’t that the capital of Palestine?
June 29th, 2006 at 8:39 pm
First off guys, the soldier taken hostage has not been killed yet, as far as I know. The dead Israeli was a settler who I think was kidnapped earlier.
There are definitely better ways to procure a hostage’s release then to destroy a power plant and water treatment plants. Do you realize how grave of a humanitarian disaster it is when an entire state of 1.3 million people is cut off from any electricity or running water? And when that state is cut in half because of bombed bridges? And do you think the Palestinians, who don’t ahve access to their OWN tax revenue because it’s being held by the Israelis, can rebuild this BASIC and ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY infrastructure?
How about negotiating for the hostage’s release? How about continuing to allow French and Egyptian mediators to make progress securing their results? How about trying to find out intelligence and go after the terrorists? How about stopping the incessant shelling and creating a massive humanitarian catastrophe and instead SOLELY targeting Hamas officials or Islamic militants. Why create 1.3 million victims because of a crime that a few wayward militants committed? That makes no sense to me.
June 29th, 2006 at 8:55 pm
Oh, yeah, good idea. Let the French take care of it.
Hamas are the criminals here.
June 29th, 2006 at 9:04 pm
You know, it might make no sense to you but, that is because you have musclememory that says that Irael should be held to a higher standard than the Palestinians…
Let’s review what that has brought the world to this terrible situation; Israel left the Gaza with the greenhouses in tact. The Palestinians then began looting them, rendering them unusable (even though a 3rd party “bought them” for the Palestinians). The Palestinians have lobbed hundrends of kassam missles into Israeli territory. The Israeli’s closed the border check points from Gaza to Israel. The Palestinians objected to the world media. (When I asked why didn’t the Palestinians sell their produce to Egypt and Lebanon I was met with silence). Better yet, why don’t the Palestinians ship all their products out of Muslim ports??? No response.
Now, the Palestinians kill two and kidnap one IDF (as well as 2 others in the west bank, one confirmed as murdered). Israel retaliates…
What, exactly is it that the Palestinians wish from the Israelis, other than their annialation?
As I said before, the west grows tired of this conflict, especially with the Palestinians. And, let’s face it, they are the people that keep asking for humanitarian aid.
Let’s everyone think of Darfur… Have the people of Darfur committed atrocities against the ruling gov’t? Why should the U.S., or any other Western nation, give aid to the Palestinians when they could send the same dollars to Darfur?
June 29th, 2006 at 9:18 pm
I have a feeling that there are forces active on this planet who really want to see an all out culture war between the west and the muslim world. And they are on both sides:
Hamas is a terrorist organization, it’s legitimation comes from it’s enemy Israel. Hamas making peace with Israel would be like denying it’s own right to exist. They only can exist as long as there is a conflict. At the same time we have ppl in Israel who just wait for an excuse to seize more land from the palestinians.
On a much larger scale there are regimes who need the western enemy to legitimize it’s opression of their societies. There are religious leaders who think jihad is great because ppl are falling in line and follow their twisted religious believes. On the western side there is the excuse to militarize all western societies and to kill civil liberties. There is the excuse to spend billions on armies and weapons.
Call me paranoid, but if not soon reasonable ppl from both sides and all religions will stand up and fight for a more peaceful world, where religions, societies exist in dignity and harmony, we will face the end of our world. And i mean that.
I think humanity is at the crossroads now. Either we’ll find a way to coexist and solve our problems peacefully or we going to be destroyed.
sorry ppl, I’m a bit frustrated today because of what’s going on…..
June 29th, 2006 at 9:25 pm
Oh, yeah, good idea. Let the French take care of it
make a change, give it back to americans : BOUM all over
June 29th, 2006 at 9:31 pm
Amgad - I can only interpret your remarks by concluding that you think Israel should place a higher worth on Palestinian women and children than the Palestinians do…
Well yes. Don’t you? Isn’t that the point of the quote from Sun Tzu, “Those
who excel in war first cultivate their own humanity and justice and
maintain their laws and institutions. By these means they make their
governments invincible”. Aren’t we entitled to expect to hold our own governments to a higher standard than Hamas?
June 29th, 2006 at 9:41 pm
Babs, I’m not holding Israel to a higher standard, I’m holding to a standard of basic morality. THe Palestinian government never held the entire state of Israel hostage. It did not devoid millions of Israelis from basic necessities like running water and electricity. Why should civilians be collectively punished for the crimes of a wayward few? Answer me that. The missiles lobbed into Israel have NOT killed A SINGLE person. Since when have people been so traumatized by missiles whose only victims are grains of sand? What the hell are you taking about when you refer to Palestinian produce being sold to Egypt and Jordan? First off, why do people like you expect Egypt to pick up the pieces of the problems that Israel and the Palestinians have created in Gaza? Don’t expect us to solve your shit for you. Second off, THERE IS NO PRODUCE IN GAZA. They have no products to ship out! Their borders are closed on all sides, there is absolutely no land to farm, and because of decades-long war and conflict, no sustainable economy whatsoever. And now without water or electricity, there is no such thing as any economic infrastructure.
June 29th, 2006 at 9:46 pm
The attack that killed the two Israeli soldiers and the abduction of a third is a casus belli. It was either carried out by the Palestinian government directly or it allowed its territory to be used for the attack and is therefore responsible as a result. If the Israeli soldier is still alive, he should be treated as a prisoner of war and as such has rights, including not being threatened, tortured, abused or being used as a bargaining counter. In all probability he has already been murdered and I will be surprised if too many Palestinians will mind very much. If by some chance he is still alive, the Palestinian Government would be well advised to hand him back to the Israelis very quickly.
I really don’t buy the Palestinian’s innocence in all of this. They went out and elected a government that is a known terrorist organisation. By most accounts it was a fair election, so they got the government they wanted. No excuses there. It’s not as if Hamas was a peaceful political party driven to violence by recent events. They were upfront about their agenda. The population of a country is responsible for the actions of its government, especially if th