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394 Responses to “Amalgam”

1. Kareemfromegypt Says:
   June 29th, 2006 at 10:12 am

   who is B and did you find a better explaination?
   history supports B’s arrgument that we are animals by the way

2. Anon. Says:
   June 29th, 2006 at 10:46 am

   Well, I can’t see enough from B’s talk to be sure about his views.
   It’s clear that if the Palestinians had a leader like you or like Sadaat, then by now they’d not only have a country, but a flourishing, thriving one and their only battles with Israel would be in football and in soccer.
   Speaking as an Israeli, even while rooting for the Israeli teams, I’d applaud the Palestinian teams when they win, cheering them for having come a long way.

   As it stands, I think Olmert is less than useless and that Israel should have declared that by killing two soldiers and kidnapping a 3rd from Israeli territory, Hamas has carried out a hostile act of war (as opposed to simply letting other groups fire rockets into Israel and blow up civilians). Israel’s response should have been:

   A: To declare a full scale war on Hamas. If Gaza wants war, then Gaza will look like a war-zone! (Of course, the war will also include Islamic Jihad, Al-Aqsa Brigades, etc).

   B: To give a deadline. If the soldier isn’t returned alive ’till then, the war will begin.

   C: To declare the war will stop immediiately once the soldier is returned.

   D: To explain that if the soldier is killed, the war will continue until there’s not enough left of Hamas to bomb. This will severely deteriorate Hamas’s (and others’) capacity to carry out further hostile actions, rocket firings, etc.

   When the war begins, immediately begin bombing Hamas targets, from foot-soldiers to Hamas ministers.
   I’m sure there are several Hamas officials who are in no mood to be next to die in military strikes and there’s a good chance they’ll act to free the soldier, citing “for the benefit of Palestinians” in order not to let it be too obvious they’re trying to save their own lives.

   Either way, a future Palestinian Authority government will think ten times over before kidnapping anyone. Indeed, before participating in any hostile action.

   No doubt, many (most, perhaps) of this blog’s readers will now either hate me or tell me that “this would only make Palestinians more extreme bla bla bla”. I could answer that, but my comment is already too long.

3. Amgad Says:
   June 29th, 2006 at 11:37 am

   Israel kept repeating that it is in a state of war to justify the extrajudicial killing and the murder of bystanders during this process. Now, in a state of war this soldier can not be called a kidnapped hostage he is a war prisoner. I believe that the only good thing that a government that cares for its citizens should do for a war prisoner is a prisoner swap not shelling the places where he might be kept! I think that the Palestinian in this particular case behave more rationally than Israelis do. There are 800 Palestinian detainees without charges, 300 women and 100 children below 16 in Israeli prisons. So the Palestinians captured an Israeli soldier to negotiate a prisoner swap. What is so infuriating in this?

   SM, I do not think Israeli government worry that much about its people otherwise they would have done something effective, i.e. negotiate, to free the other prisoner who was executed yesterday. Olmert will exploit this case to show that he is a tough guy who can order the killing of tens of Palestinians to avenge the killing of an Israeli. The Israeli public would forget that the life of this human could have been saved by releasing some Palestinian women and children serving times without charges.

4. Perry Says:
   June 29th, 2006 at 11:51 am

   Israel gave up on the peace process and opted to wall itself off from Palestine instead. Palestinians have yet to come to grips with that. They still think Israel gives a diddly squat whether they declare jihad or not. Fact is,Israel will sit securely behind its wall,while making periodic incursions to gather rockets and militants. Palestinians only hurt themselves with continued militancy. Until Palestinians get their minds right,there will be one economic hardship after another.

5. Fabian Says:
   June 29th, 2006 at 12:47 pm

   What can I say…I started writing several times and deleted it all.

   The Hamas has made an own goal. Actions have consequences.

6. Andrew Brehm Says:
   June 29th, 2006 at 12:49 pm

   “SM, I do not think Israeli government worry that much about its people otherwise they would have done something effective, i.e. negotiate,”

   LOL

   “something effective” - “negogiate” with Palestinian Arabs. Can you point to a single example of where that method worked?

   “to free the other prisoner who was executed yesterday.”

   _Murdered_. I doubt the Hamas government wants responsibility for the death. An “execution” is when the government or other authority does it. But they will probably deny involvement.

   “Olmert will exploit this case to show that he is a tough guy who can order the killing of tens of Palestinians to avenge the killing of an Israeli.”

   Yeah, because Olmert gets rich by killing Arabs. Everybody knows that.

   “Israel kept repeating that it is in a state of war to justify the extrajudicial killing and the murder of bystanders during this process. Now, in a state of war this soldier can not be called a kidnapped hostage he is a war prisoner.”

   Which just goes to show how much negotiations with Palestinian Arabs are worth. There has been a truce. Kidnapping a soldier during a truce cannot easily be justified by claiming that there is a state of war (there is, but during a truce you are supposed to not act on that).

   The same truce, btw, does not mean that Israel is not allowed to hunt down and shoot criminals; unless you want to claim that the Palestinian authority has been denying for years, namely that they and the terrorists are the same people!

   You might also want to look up what “prisoner of war” means. The Palestinian authority would have to take responsibility for the act (rather than deny it) and the prisoner would have certain rights (including access to the red cross/star). He could then be exchanged for a Palestinian prisoner of war, IF the Arab side had ever fought the war according to the law (i.e. uniformed fighters that don’t specifically attack civilians).

   As it is, the Palestinians are not granting him the rights of a prisoner of war, their government even denies involvement.

   I wonder why you are using that as an argument when the Hamas government themselves deny it. That is a bit strange.

7. Babs Says:
   June 29th, 2006 at 12:52 pm

   Amgad - How does one guard against “extrajudicial killing and the murder of bystanders during this process” when the terrorists are surrounded by children looking on? Hell, when my children were small I wouldn’t even let them out in the yard when the grass was being mowed to protect them from possible harm…
   Take a look at some pictures from just the last two days shot by Reuters and the AP (hardly shills for Israel) as the “Gaza Militants” go about setting up land mines, carrying RPG’s and automatic weapons all with children in close proximity. Would you allow your children to stand near by someone busy planting a roadside bomb? Would you bring your son or daughter to a demonstration where terrorists were firing live rounds into the air? It is funny how the Palestinians expect way more protection for their children from the Israelis than they afford them themselves.

8. Uchuck the Tuchuck Says:
   June 29th, 2006 at 12:56 pm

   “Olmert will exploit this case to show that he is a tough guy who can order the killing of tens of Palestinians to avenge the killing of an Israeli.”

   “No deaths or injuries were reported in the Israeli actions.” (From the quoted AP report)

   “Now, in a state of war this soldier can not be called a kidnapped hostage he is a war prisoner.”

   Two points to look at here. The soldier was taken in a cross-border raid by the Hamas-affiliated PRC. That in itself is an act of war, initiated by Palestinians. Yes, the soldier is a POW, but not because the Israelis have moved into Gaza. Second, the now dead 18-year-old civilian (reportly killed shortly after he was taken on Sunday) was not a POW. Nor was he a collateral casualty, victim of a stray shot in a combat zone. He was snatched and murdered by Palestinian thugs. No, I am not calling all Palestinians “thugs.” But I am saying that the persons (can’t call them “men”) that did this are thugs, thugs and murderers.

   The problem is, these thugs and murderers are apparently the duly elected Palestinian government.

9. Leilouta Says:
   June 29th, 2006 at 1:00 pm

   I had a conversation once with a Tunisian about how kidnappings and bombings are just savage and will not change anything. They always make it worse for the Arabs. He said,” Well yea, I agree, innocents should not be killed, but what do you want them to do? They don’t have the means to fight and that is the only thing they can do to revolt.” I said,” So do you consider 911 OK? He replied,” NO, but….” There is always a ‘but’ with us.

10. Adam B Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 1:06 pm

    Viable points from both sides, I think.

    One basic truth (imho) is that Palestine will not begin to move forward before they lay down their arms and get busy building up a viable democracy.

    “But should we just let Israel oppress and mistreat us?” I hear you say… Yes. It worked for Ghandi, it’ll work for you. I’m not particularly pro-Israeli, but considering they don’t kill people from my part of the world and burn our flags and whatnot, they’re certainly higher on the list than their neighbours! However, if the palestinians stopped their foolishness and showed signs of moving forward, western sympathy would quickly turn their way should Israel persist with their heavyhanded treatment of them.

    Only the west can help Palestine in it’s struggle for a normal existance, but untill they learn the old “don’t bite the hand that feeds you” this will not happen. Plain and simple.

11. The Raccoon Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 2:26 pm

    The Israeli government is finally doing the right thing. We leave no man behind - and even scum like Peretz and Olmert know this. They are finally doing what they were elected to do - protect the Israeli citizens and do anything in our power to end this madness. And they are doing so in a just, respectable and sane manner. See http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=newsOne&storyID=2006-06-29T013909Z_01_L29258645_RTRUKOC_0_US-MIDEAST-ROCKET.xml
    for constrast.

    I only bemoan that I am a broken Raccoon and am no longer fit for service - it should have been me arresting these Hamas homicidal psychopaths, by Eris!

    Gilad’s body will be retrieved in any way neccesary (for he is probably dead by now), and maybe the Palestinians will finally understand what terrorism will get them nowhere.

    We live in interesting times.

12. elengil Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 2:36 pm

    if the palestinians stopped their foolishness and showed signs of moving forward, western sympathy would quickly turn their way should Israel persist with their heavyhanded treatment of them.

    If the palestinians stopped their foolishness and showed signs of moving forward, Israel would have no *cause* to use a heavy hand.

    Palestinians didn’t start to bitch because Israel began to use road blocks. Israel rather, began to use road blocks because Palestinains were blowing themselves up in their markets.

    Cause and effect. If you are attacking a neighboring country, don’t be surprised when they no longer wish to allow you entry. And don’t cry it’s a violation of human rights either, cause no one has a basic *right* to enter just any country they chose if they are not citizens.

    Israel also is not merely withholding tax funds from the PA. Israel was, in fact, using that money to pay for the power and water it was continuing to send into the territories. i.e. allowing the basic necessities for the ordinary Palestinians to continue by using the PA’s money to pay for it.

    I love how they bitch and moan every time Israel fires rockets into Gaza while blindly ignoring that there are daily rocket firings *out* of Gaza into Israel.

    The wall? Yah. Bout freakin time Israel found a way to keep the terrorists out of the country. Isn’t being blown up while on a bus to work a much greater violation of human rights than simply having a wall in your back yard because your fellows won’t *stop* blowing themselves up on busses and in markets and weddings and shooting children in their beds?

    Everything Israel has done that has been decried as “violation of Palestinian human rights” has been in *direct response* to the actions of the Palestinians. The palestinians have violated their OWN rights.

13. The Frenchman Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 2:48 pm

    How long can anyone put up with this stupidity ? If the Palestinians weren’t constantly screaming death to Israel then the kidnappings might be looked at by Israel as the workings of a fringe group of terrorists. If Hamas had spent the last months, since their election, working constructively with the Israelis for a equitable solution, then maybe Israel might feel that they might have a partner in Hamas, even if it remained ginger. None of this has happened, so who can blame Israel for saying, fuck it ! let me show you the consequences of not playing ball with us. There are limits to anyones patience when dealing with an insolent child that refuse to see the potential for progress, which is exactly how I see Hamas. When they were elected I had high hopes for progress, but very shortly after, I realized that like all of these terrorrist groups, facilitated by their non active supporters, they believe that their cause is only valid so long as they look and act like a bunch of whining martyrs. Stupid assholes, at least in Hamas’s case, they actually had the support of millions of Westerners and they fucked it up.

    As for the release of all of the Palestinian children in Israeli jails, is Hamas aware ( as per SM post a few days / weeks past ) that many of these kids want to be in those jails ? This alone should cause Hamas pause that they are not doing anything that benefits the Palestinian people.

    All very sad for the Palestinians because the shit their in just keeps getting deeper and deeper.

14. Sam Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 3:13 pm

    Adam B said, ““But should we just let Israel oppress and mistreat us?” I hear you say… Yes. It worked for Ghandi, it’ll work for you. I’m not particularly pro-Israeli, but considering they don’t kill people from my part of the world and burn our flags and whatnot, they’re certainly higher on the list than their neighbours! However, if the palestinians stopped their foolishness and showed signs of moving forward, western sympathy would quickly turn their way should Israel persist with their heavyhanded treatment of them. ”

    Finally, a reasonable position from someone who isn’t really pro-Israeli, but who is obviously not one of the haters for hates sake. I don’t believe Israeli treatment of Palestinians is their fault - you can’t handle a live grenade with kid gloves. But the world needs to realize that Palestine has to accept responsibility for the actions of its people before Israel can even begin to negotiate with them again.

15. Deathway Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 3:15 pm

    It’s particularly unfortunate for the decent Palestinians out there who do not have the midnset. But tehn, do they refelct the majority? Apparently not, else how would Hamas have ever gained control of the PA? What is happening was inevitable. Come on! There are TERRORISTS running the government! And as usual, the biggest price will be paid by those Hamas claims to represent.

16. Gadfly Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 3:21 pm

    You know, I’m 44 damn years old, and this shit has been on the telivision my entire freaking life.

    How long?

    I refuse to accept that Palestinians (or any other Muslim group) are “animals.” It’s obviously a bunch of dickheads raising their children to hate. Hate above all else — especially Allah!

    I’m sick of it, but I just see no end to it. Maybe taking Palestinian children out of the hate-filled squalor and raising them with moderate, gentle families in Jordan or Israel or over here. Teach them everything that has been going on in their homeland since time immemorial, then send them back to sort the whole stupid thing out.

    Huh …

    Like that’s going to happen.

    *sigh*

    Oh well. On the plus side, I laughed when the fighter jets buzzed the Syrian president’s house. You just know they were Mach 2 and 100 feet! I bet it exploded every window in the place. “Helloooo! Just seeing if you were paying attention.” *snicker*

17. Drima Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 3:27 pm

    This is a real disaster. What good will kidnapping one single soldier do anyways?? Hamas is asking for it??

18. Babs Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 3:28 pm

    “But the world needs to realize that Palestine has to accept responsibility for the actions of its people before Israel can even begin to negotiate with them again. ”

    Check this blog out:

    http://a-mother-from-gaza.blogspot.com/

    I think it is a long time coming based on the mindset of this blogger and her commenters.
    BTW, I have been banned from this site because I had the nerve to point out that this conflict came about because Palestinian terrorists tunneled 1/4 mile into Israel, murdered two IDF, and kidnapped a third… Previously, I had asked the site owner to consider the possibility that the horrendous loss of life on the Gaza beach was due to a Palestinian arms cache exploding and not an Israeli rocket. I also asked her to consider what good could be accomplished if the same time, energy and resources were put to use making Palestine a better place rather than continuing to wage war on Israel.
    It’s funny how a society that continues to tell the world that they are in a humanitarian crisis has money for rockets, land mines and automatic weapons. It’s like a drunk telling the landlord that he doesn’t have the rent money…

19. nice Jewish Boy Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 3:45 pm

    I don’t mean to be flippant, but you know what’s really sad about this whole thing? There are millions of beautiful women from Morocco to Pakistan and we (the world, including the Umma) never get to see them because they are: 1) often veiled; and 2) irrelevant to anything but domestic duties. That’s an absolute shame. I think it’s time that men just got the fuck out of the way and let women start running things. If men, particularly ME men, depend on women so much to make their homes, what does that say about their countries? If any beautiful, but repressed/oppressed, ME girl wants to spend some time in wonderfully chilly S.F. (actually a balmy 65F today!), she’s more than welcome.

20. D.B. Shobrawy Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 3:47 pm

    I really dont believe it will ever be over. We will watch this fighting in different forms for the rest of our lives. As long as their is a Palestinian diaspora population around the world. Regardless I think both sides enjoy the fight, it gives them something to occupy their time with.

21. Hyscience Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 4:09 pm

    Palestinians Suffering From Their Own Culture

    Is the soldier an excuse or the reason for the incursion? Perhaps a little of both. But unfortunately, a Palestinian culture of self pity, corruption, terrorism, hatred, and an inability to look within their society and within themselves for solutions,…

22. Yossi Gurvitz Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 4:25 pm

    The fuckers want a war. And they’ll bloody well will have one on their hands. You read the comments that are posted on Al Arabiya; it’s my misfortune to be the one who deletes inflammatory comments on an influental Israeli site. And, let me tell you, I’ve never seen it so bad.

    In the past four days I’ve had to delete at least 300, possibly more, messages calling for the utter annihiliation of the Palestinians. As in genocide. They used to speak of the “Arab Street”; well, there’s an Israeli street as well, and it’s aflame. I don’t think it’s been this bad since that series of suicide attacks in early 1996.

    And the street influences the leadership. Our generals are wolves now, bred during five years of unrelenting war waged against Israeli citizens. They’re all seek, destroy, and use maximum force.

    And you know what? I no longer blame them. I participated in many demonstrations, fighting - as an Israeli leftist - for the right of the Palestinians to their own state. Not so long ago, this was not so common sense as it is today, and it was enough to get you beat up.

    I’m not complaining about that - I took a calculated risk - but of the insipid quality of Palestinian leadership. Gaza was a test case. We pulled out, and my grandchildren will still be paying compensation for the settlers. That’s fine; we put those pests there in the first place. But couldn’t the idiots see that if they screwed that one, not a single inch of Palestinian land in the West Bank will be yielded?

    They fired those stupid rockets, the Qassams, at Sderot. 10 kilos range. No sovereign country would stand up to that. So: the IAF hits Gaza. Hard. Misses from time to time, killing plenty of civilians. And still the rockets keep flying. .

    Don’t the idiots on the other side of the fence understand that, if this keeps on, no sane Israeli would give up the West Bank? 10 kilos: that’s the range from Qalqilya to Netanya, from Tul Karem to Petah Tikva. No one would give them the chance.

    For once in our lifetime, we went to elections - barely three months ago - and elected a coalition of parties that said it will give the West Bank - because it is our own interest. The Israeli right-wing splintered, and a large chunk of it joined the left.

    And then, Qassams. The support for Olmert has dropped to 30# or so - as did the support from the withdrawal. From 60% to 30% in three months. Great job, morons.

    And then they kidnapped a soldier. So there’ll be a war. It will be unprecendented: Israel has arrested elected representatives of the Palestinians, and will gleefully assassinate Haniyeh. Oh, and by the way - remember that pastoral little town, Beit Hanoun? Where they used to lob Qassams from?

    Odds are it won’t be there by Sunday. The IDF has ordered the population to flee, as he intends to seriously bombard the place.

    Now, that is technically a war crime. On the other hand, so is firing Qassams at Sderot. And since 81% of Palestinians support the Qassams and the suicide bombers, you can forget about the Israeli left trying to prevent the army going “shock and awe” on Beit Hanoun. After all, odds are that 81% of its population erupt in joy when Hamas murders a hostage.

    The Palestinian national sport was shooting themselves in the leg. In the last few weeks, they seem to have upgraded it to shooting themselves in the head, with a rocket launcher.

    And it that soldier buys the farm - well, chances are most Israelis won’t object to a few Mai Lais.

    Excellent post, BTW.

23. The Raccoon Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 4:42 pm

    Interesting. Is this Yossi Gurvitz, the historian and Cthulhu buff?

24. Curious Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 4:51 pm

    Hi Sandmonkey,

    I’ve been enjoying the site from here in New York. One thing I don’t understand: in the press, it seems that the Arabs or Muslims interviewed universally see this as one-sided problem, i.e. caused by Israel. Is this representative? Or is there a significant portion of people who see this as a dispute between two sides, with both partially at fault? And what kind of people are more likely to hold these views?

25. Amgad Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 4:52 pm

    Impressive, the fact that 800 people are denied their freedom passed unnoticed by all pro Israel guys!!!!!!! Well since these 800 persons are Palestinians they must have done something bad though Israel herself does not know what it is. The Palestinians want their women and children freeeeeeeeeee. That is all.

26. noone Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 5:03 pm

    Yossi Gurvitz, the same change in attitude is happening here in the west amoung people I never thought would ever leave supporting the Palestinians. I have an Iranian friend who has lways been very anti Israel, yesterday he said that the Palestinians crossed the line this time and will get exactly what they are asking for. A war no one can save them from. Hamas is so into their own glory and power that they have sacarificed their own people for this.

27. tsedek Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 5:11 pm

    I think Hamas is very clever. It was afraid for the referendum, it is afraid to be forced to recognize Israel, and it will do everything possible to keep heating things up in order to let the Palestinians hate Israel even more because of the retalliations it’ll be forced to enact.

    Hamas is 1 thing and 1 thing alone: no matter what happen, how many people will have to die for it: never recognize Israel.

    This is beautiful, Sam - and so bloody true:

    “Those who excel in war first cultivate their own humanity and justice and
    maintain their laws and institutions. By these means they make their
    governments invincible.”

    Sun Tzu, the Art of War

    Poor Palestinians. I wish for them better days to come. I truely do…

    Tse.

28. The Raccoon Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 5:11 pm

    Amgad -

    Here’s a little info about the poor, defenseless, innocent Palestinian women cruelly held by Israel for no reason whatsoever:

    http://www1.idf.il/DOVER/site/mainpage.asp?sl=EN&id=7&docid=35064.EN

    SM had a little article about the children, didn’t he?

    And here’s a little bit more on the same topic:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_suicide_bomber

    Poor, innocent, defenseless children cruelly imprisoned by the Evil Zionists ™ for no reason whatsoever…

29. tsedek Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 5:16 pm

    I think they’re poor, Raccoon

    What kind of a life is that? Being cheated into believing that they’re dealing with the devil and the best thing they can do with their lives is to end it, taking as many “devils” with them as possible?

    Of course they should be locked up. But still that doesn’t take away that they are victim of evil people just like “us” (Israeli’s) only they don’t realize it…

    Tse.

30. Babs Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 5:21 pm

    Amgad - It is funny that previously on this blog a pro-Palestinian said that Israel should “negotiate” rather than use violence. I guess you disagree with that. In the case of your “innocent” Palestinian women, tunneling 1/4 mile into Israel, murdering 2 IDF and kidnapping one is justified? What ever happened to negotiation???

31. BornIn1965 Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 5:24 pm

    Fascinating thread………….

32. Craig Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 5:30 pm

    Ahmgad/Uchuck,

    The soldier is not a prisoner of war. He’s a hostage. Either Palestinians are guilty of war crimes or they are guilty of terrorism. Take your pick.

    Israel/Occupied Territories: Palestinian armed groups must release abducted Israeli soldier

    Hostage taking, that is threatening to harm or continue to detain a detained person in order to compel a third party to do or abstain from doing something as a condition for their release, is expressly prohibited under international law. Such practice threatens the fundamental right to life, personal integrity and liberty, and is expressly prohibited by international humanitarian law. Under no circumstances is the taking of hostages justifiable.

    My own view is that it’s both a war crime and terrorism. Hostage taking is classic terrorism, and there is NO difference between what the Palestinians have done the last few days and what AL Qaeda has been doing in Iraq the last few years.

    The killing of the 18 year old settler was kidnapping and murder. Period. Enough moral equivalency. I hope Israel kills every HAMAS member they can find. The US would do no less with Al Qaeda, and HAMAS is no different from AL Qaeda.

33. Amgad Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 5:53 pm

    Israel is a state of law, in a state of law people can not be detained without charges and they are innocent till proven guilty in a court of law. Unless the Israeli justice is a selective one this should apply to all individuals under the control of the state of Israel. Denying these rights to the Palestinians means one of two things 1- Palestinians are not human enough to in front of the Israeli justice to deserve its protection
    2- Israel is not a state of law.
    Why does not Israel just release who are detained without even being charged and save the life of this soldier?

34. Amgad Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 5:53 pm

    Israel is a state of law, in a state of law people can not be detained without charges and they are innocent till proven guilty in a court of law. Unless the Israeli justice is a selective one this should apply to all individuals under the control of the state of Israel. Denying these rights to the Palestinians means one of two things 1- Palestinians are not human enough to in front of the Israeli justice to deserve its protection
    2- Israel is not a state of law.
    Why does not Israel just release those who are detained without even being charged and save the life of this soldier?

35. nomad Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 5:55 pm

    We live in interesting times.

    is that you ment Apocalypse ?

36. disgusting thing (eee) Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 5:57 pm

    > Take your pick.

    The crowd of beggars, thieves and murderers in their tears again.

    Born to be the ubermensch, they rob, deport and kill arabs like
    other people would kill an annoying bug - but - watch what happens,
    if some of their precious brethren - an accomplice of their pogromist
    army gets caught by one these arab untermensch’s - pathetic with-
    out limit.

    Pee!

37. Babs Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 6:13 pm

    Amgad - I can only interpret your remarks by concluding that you think Israel should place a higher worth on Palestinian women and children than the Palestinians do… What responsibility do the Palestinians have on the protection of all life or, are they free to kidnap and murder without recourse and place their fellow citizens in harms way with violence?
    Do you recognise that your argument is that of a coward? “We do no wrong, it’s the other guy who is bad.”

38. Alex Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 6:17 pm

    Yesterday the Syrians were claiming the overflight didn’t happen, so I guess it’s progress for them.

39. Amgad Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 6:31 pm

    I have never claimed that the Palestinian armed movements are righteous angles. I was just drawing attention to some basic principles that sadly have disappeared from the mindset of both party whenever they think about the other. For example the reverence of life and freedom of all human beings. For Israelis it is ok to detain indefinitely detain hundreds of people without any legal processes underway, it is ok to incinerate children if they happen to be any where around a suspected militant. On the other hand, the Palestinians think it is ok to blow up Israeli teenagers in cafes since this might reduce the influx of immigrants who will convert into settlers and occupation force over night..

    The Israelis forget that the Palestinian militants are intermingled with the Palestinian population as much as IDF personal is intermingled with the Israeli one. Having 300,000 active military personal in a population of 5 million means that there is not a single district without a couple of people serving in the IDF. If Hamas militants and IDF officers are engaged in a war, as the spokesman of the IDF said int he CNN few day ago, then blowing the market in an area where some Israeli military personal live and dropping a on ton bomb on the residential are where a Hamas militant live are equivalent. However for a sane person both are heinous crimes taking into consideration the innocent human life that will be inevitably lost.

40. Uchuck the Tuchuck Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 6:33 pm

    Craig, I will concede the point on the POW semantics. Does, in your opinion, the act of taking this soldier hostage by the PRC qualify as an act of war? (Serious question, not an attempt to piss you off.)

    I see that eee has made a reappearance. May I suggest to all that we simply ignore his comments rather than letting this thread degenerate into insult and counter-insult?

41. Michael in SC Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 6:33 pm

    Amgad said: “Israel is a state of law, in a state of law people can not be detained without charges and they are innocent till proven guilty in a court of law.”

    Only to a point, when the state’s existence or the lives of its citizens are threatened, perceived or otherwise; then the responsibility of the state is to protect. Witness the USA and gitmo. Our courts are in crisis and the national debate rages over the government’s behavior–if you think Americans don’t take suspension of habeas corpus seriously, you are wrong! But, we aren’t the only nation to suspend “basic” civil liberties in a time of crisis. Plenty of others do and have. Unfortunately, written laws don’t implement themselves: human beings do. And human beings are subject to all the frailties of being human (gross errors in judgment, overreaction, prejudice, hate, fear, personal gain, etc., etc., etc.)

42. Uchuck the Tuchuck Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 6:45 pm

    Amgad, I can’t agree with the moral equivalency of the two examples you provided. In my opinion blowing up a marketplace on the chance that someone there might be in the IDF is not the same as inflicting collateral casualties when trying to kill a specific person or persons with an airstrike. I realize we are going to disagree on this position and I am not calling you an idiot or slinging insults. I just disagree with your evaluation.

43. Craig Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 6:47 pm

    Amgad,

    Israel is a state of law, in a state of law people can not be detained without charges and they are innocent till proven guilty in a court of law.

    This is not true. Israel is in a state of war. Prisoners of War do not need to be charged with crimes, let alone convicted. In fact, it’s unheard of for a non-criminal combatant to be charged with a crime for participating in a war.

    Really, these are not difficult concepts. Read the Hague and Geneva conventions. It’s all there, in black and white. The US supreme Court just ruled on the Gitmo detainess TODAY, as a matter of afct, and has ruled that they ARE prisoners of war, and has thus *prohibited* them from being tried in US civil courts. Now they will be either held for the duration without trial, or they will be charged by military tribunals.

    Uchuck,

    Craig, I will concede the point on the POW semantics.

    I don’t consider it to be semantics, Uchuck. Hostages are not the same thing as Prisoners of War. That’s not a semantic difference.

    Does, in your opinion, the act of taking this soldier hostage by the PRC qualify as an act of war? (Serious question, not an attempt to piss you off.)

    Which part of the incident was not an act of war, in your opinion?

    A) the invasion of Israeli territory

    B) the attacks on/killing of Israeli soldiers

    C) The kidnap of a wounded Israeli soldier

    C is a war crime and an act of terrorism. A B & C were all acts of war. A & B were not criminal though.

44. Craig Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 6:48 pm

    By the way, Uchuck, in my opinion, Israel has been in a state of war continuously since 1948. So yet one more act of war by either side in the conflict is pretty irrelevant.

45. nice Jewish Boy Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 7:06 pm

    It’s at peace with Egypt and Jordan. One country it routinely humiliated for years, and the other had the sense to stay out or put up a weak fight. What’s funny about Syria is that if it tried to buzz Israel’s coast, its planes would get shot out of the sky, no questions asked. That’s right; Israel can buzz Syria, but not vice versa.

46. Deathway Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 7:08 pm

    I would say it is less an act of war and more the final straw. Palestinian attacks, whether by Qassam or suicide bombers have been pretty much ongoing since 1948. And when Israel concedes a point or 2 during negotiations, do the terrorist attacks cease? No! They increase! When Israel retailiates, inevitably civilians are harmed. I will admit Israel is typically sloppy with their retaliations and should be held accountable, but they never target civilains, whereas civilains are the primary targets of Hamas and their ilk. And there is a big gulf between these two shortfalls.
    So the time comes to say, “Screw it. Let’s go in there and do something about this.” I would say the term is less important than the action, and the action is more than necessary. Don’t tell a typical pro-Palestinian this. I have tried and tried to take their side and at least understand it. Yet if you even suggest Israel is justified in so much as shooting a rubber band at an Islamic Jihad member, they spout the same talking points ad nauseam. “I don’t support terrorists, but…” So I have thrown up my hands and given up any such advocacy. How much moreso the Israelis, whose men, women and children are all wearing targets on their heads? There is no single act of war, only a string of incidents that have been too long ignored. The Palestinians’ oppressors are looking right back at them whenever they look into a mirror. And until they realize that their stupid actions are only going to make things worse, they will not get this freedom that they claim the right to.
    By the way, I love the Syria buzzing! They should do this weekly!

47. Deathway Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 7:10 pm

    Nice Jewish Boy,
    Syria would buzz Israel, but they are too big of panty waists to do it.

48. Babs Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 7:18 pm

    I really have a very difficult time siding with Palestine while they cry that the “oppressor” is hammering them. I wish for peace in the Mid East, please believe that… I do not see peace happening until the Palestinians stop waging war on Israel and start building a nation that will support its people.
    Have you ever been in a personal situation where you were sure that the other party did you dirty? Have you ever decided to give up on it and build the best life that you could for yourself and your children? I have…
    You know what? It worked out okay!

49. Mideastbeast Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 7:25 pm

    This was such an overblown reaction I can’t believe it. All this for one fucking soldier. Jeopardizing the lives of 1.3 million Palestinians who no longer have access to electricity and running water for one soldier?? I’m usually a supporter of Israel, but in this instance, Israel is asking for it. It is creating a humanitarian tragedy of epic proportions to free a single COMBATANT who’d been taken prisoner. There are better ways to procure his release. This will just drive more Palestinians towards hatred. Besides, it’s not like Israel hasn’t taken Palestinians prisoner so what’s the difference here. They take on Israeli captive and they come back and arrest diplomatic officials. That’s ridiculous.

50. Babs Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 7:36 pm

    The difference Middleastbeast is that Israel had removed itself from Gaza yet, the shelling continued on innocent Israeli villages. The difference is that Palestinian terrorists tunneled 1/4 mile into soverign Israeli territory, killing 2 and kidnapping 1. The difference is that Palestine has allowed the shelling of an innocent Israeli village with 100’s of Kassam rockets for quite a while. The border incursion was the final straw.
    If you try to “switch the tables” and think of it in a opposing light, I really think that you would say it is time to stop this insanity…

51. Babs Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 7:39 pm

    There are better ways to procure his release.

    And exactly WHAT would these better ways be?

52. Joanne Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 7:43 pm

    You rock, sandmonkey!

53. Michael in SC Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 7:44 pm

    There are better ways to procure his release.

    And exactly WHAT would these better ways be?

    Bring him back to life, first. He’s dead as a freakin’ doornail.

54. Craig Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 7:51 pm

    MEB,

    There are better ways to procure his release.

    No, there are not. He’s already dead, as far as I’m concerned. Just as the two American soldiers captured in Iraq were already dead, the minute they surrendered. They chose to die suffering, instead of to die fighting. I’d rather blow myself up with a grenade in hopes that I’d be able to kill one or more of the attackers in the process, than to surrender to an Arab. Or an Asian, for that matter. I’m an ex-Marine, and surrender has been against Marine Corps policy since the Bataan Death March in WWII. There are some cultures that you just don’t surrender too. Ever.

    This will just drive more Palestinians towards hatred.

    Is that even possible? How many Palestinian blogs do you read? I’ve never seen such blind murderous hatred than I have on the Palestinian blogs that iToot lists. In any case, that’s shouldn’t be a concern. That’s like the claim the US should not attack Al Qaeda because fighting back will just create more terrorists. It’s silliness to expect anybody to submit to terrorists. When has leniency for criminals ever reduced crime? Anywhere?

    Besides, it’s not like Israel hasn’t taken Palestinians prisoner so what’s the difference here.

    So, you’d be OK with Israel rounding up masses of Palestinians and threatening to kill them if all HAMAS members don’t surrender immediately, then?

    That’s what the Nazis used to do, you know. Whenever one of their troops was killed by an insurgent, they’d kill a hundred randomly selected citizens from the neighborhood. Just line them up against the wall and mow them down. Is that what you think Israel should be doing? How about the US? Should the US fight terrorism/insurgency in Iraq by butchering the families and friends of the insurgents? I assume you’re OK with what seems to have happened in Haditha, then?

    I find your thinking pretty faulty on this, MEB. Despite what you claim, Israel IS held to a higher standard than the Palestinians are.

55. Jaelic Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 7:54 pm

    Let’s face it: The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. Arafat had 95% of what he wanted at Camp David. What do they have now?

56. Michael in SC Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 8:17 pm

    While it is easy to hold Israel to a higher standard, it begs the question:
    What kind of government would risk its own people?

    Isn’t there implicit trust in HAMAS that Israel doesn’t have the stomach for such carnage as they can wring?

    If this is a cultural thing, then what does that say for the Arabs? And why don’t they stop it?

    It is sad to use your own people as grist for the mill but then I never understood children suicide bombers either.

57. nice Jewish Boy Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 8:35 pm

    “This will just drive more Palestinians towards hatred.”
    ——————–
    Isn’t that the capital of Palestine?

58. Mideastbeast Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 8:39 pm

    First off guys, the soldier taken hostage has not been killed yet, as far as I know. The dead Israeli was a settler who I think was kidnapped earlier.

    There are definitely better ways to procure a hostage’s release then to destroy a power plant and water treatment plants. Do you realize how grave of a humanitarian disaster it is when an entire state of 1.3 million people is cut off from any electricity or running water? And when that state is cut in half because of bombed bridges? And do you think the Palestinians, who don’t ahve access to their OWN tax revenue because it’s being held by the Israelis, can rebuild this BASIC and ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY infrastructure?

    How about negotiating for the hostage’s release? How about continuing to allow French and Egyptian mediators to make progress securing their results? How about trying to find out intelligence and go after the terrorists? How about stopping the incessant shelling and creating a massive humanitarian catastrophe and instead SOLELY targeting Hamas officials or Islamic militants. Why create 1.3 million victims because of a crime that a few wayward militants committed? That makes no sense to me.

59. Deathway Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 8:55 pm

    Oh, yeah, good idea. Let the French take care of it.
    Hamas are the criminals here.

60. Babs Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 9:04 pm

    You know, it might make no sense to you but, that is because you have musclememory that says that Irael should be held to a higher standard than the Palestinians…
    Let’s review what that has brought the world to this terrible situation; Israel left the Gaza with the greenhouses in tact. The Palestinians then began looting them, rendering them unusable (even though a 3rd party “bought them” for the Palestinians). The Palestinians have lobbed hundrends of kassam missles into Israeli territory. The Israeli’s closed the border check points from Gaza to Israel. The Palestinians objected to the world media. (When I asked why didn’t the Palestinians sell their produce to Egypt and Lebanon I was met with silence). Better yet, why don’t the Palestinians ship all their products out of Muslim ports??? No response.
    Now, the Palestinians kill two and kidnap one IDF (as well as 2 others in the west bank, one confirmed as murdered). Israel retaliates…
    What, exactly is it that the Palestinians wish from the Israelis, other than their annialation?
    As I said before, the west grows tired of this conflict, especially with the Palestinians. And, let’s face it, they are the people that keep asking for humanitarian aid.
    Let’s everyone think of Darfur… Have the people of Darfur committed atrocities against the ruling gov’t? Why should the U.S., or any other Western nation, give aid to the Palestinians when they could send the same dollars to Darfur?

61. Havoc Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 9:18 pm

    I have a feeling that there are forces active on this planet who really want to see an all out culture war between the west and the muslim world. And they are on both sides:

    Hamas is a terrorist organization, it’s legitimation comes from it’s enemy Israel. Hamas making peace with Israel would be like denying it’s own right to exist. They only can exist as long as there is a conflict. At the same time we have ppl in Israel who just wait for an excuse to seize more land from the palestinians.

    On a much larger scale there are regimes who need the western enemy to legitimize it’s opression of their societies. There are religious leaders who think jihad is great because ppl are falling in line and follow their twisted religious believes. On the western side there is the excuse to militarize all western societies and to kill civil liberties. There is the excuse to spend billions on armies and weapons.

    Call me paranoid, but if not soon reasonable ppl from both sides and all religions will stand up and fight for a more peaceful world, where religions, societies exist in dignity and harmony, we will face the end of our world. And i mean that.
    I think humanity is at the crossroads now. Either we’ll find a way to coexist and solve our problems peacefully or we going to be destroyed.

    sorry ppl, I’m a bit frustrated today because of what’s going on…..

62. nomad Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 9:25 pm

    Oh, yeah, good idea. Let the French take care of it

    make a change, give it back to americans : BOUM all over

63. Stephen Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 9:31 pm

    Amgad - I can only interpret your remarks by concluding that you think Israel should place a higher worth on Palestinian women and children than the Palestinians do…

    Well yes. Don’t you? Isn’t that the point of the quote from Sun Tzu, “Those
    who excel in war first cultivate their own humanity and justice and
    maintain their laws and institutions. By these means they make their
    governments invincible”. Aren’t we entitled to expect to hold our own governments to a higher standard than Hamas?

64. Mideastbeast Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 9:41 pm

    Babs, I’m not holding Israel to a higher standard, I’m holding to a standard of basic morality. THe Palestinian government never held the entire state of Israel hostage. It did not devoid millions of Israelis from basic necessities like running water and electricity. Why should civilians be collectively punished for the crimes of a wayward few? Answer me that. The missiles lobbed into Israel have NOT killed A SINGLE person. Since when have people been so traumatized by missiles whose only victims are grains of sand? What the hell are you taking about when you refer to Palestinian produce being sold to Egypt and Jordan? First off, why do people like you expect Egypt to pick up the pieces of the problems that Israel and the Palestinians have created in Gaza? Don’t expect us to solve your shit for you. Second off, THERE IS NO PRODUCE IN GAZA. They have no products to ship out! Their borders are closed on all sides, there is absolutely no land to farm, and because of decades-long war and conflict, no sustainable economy whatsoever. And now without water or electricity, there is no such thing as any economic infrastructure.

65. charlie 316 Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 9:46 pm

    The attack that killed the two Israeli soldiers and the abduction of a third is a casus belli. It was either carried out by the Palestinian government directly or it allowed its territory to be used for the attack and is therefore responsible as a result. If the Israeli soldier is still alive, he should be treated as a prisoner of war and as such has rights, including not being threatened, tortured, abused or being used as a bargaining counter. In all probability he has already been murdered and I will be surprised if too many Palestinians will mind very much. If by some chance he is still alive, the Palestinian Government would be well advised to hand him back to the Israelis very quickly.

    I really don’t buy the Palestinian’s innocence in all of this. They went out and elected a government that is a known terrorist organisation. By most accounts it was a fair election, so they got the government they wanted. No excuses there. It’s not as if Hamas was a peaceful political party driven to violence by recent events. They were upfront about their agenda. The population of a country is responsible for the actions of its government, especially if that government does what it was elected to do. The Palestinians are the authors of their own misfortune and they may be just about to find out how serious a miscalculation they have made.

    I hope they see sense before its too late, otherwise its going to be very ugly.

66. annonn Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 9:47 pm

    Mideastbeast because everyone is tired of the “poor victims” . They are not victims, they have been given many chances and each reach for their hand in working together has been met by a slap from the Palestinians. When 70% of the population vote for a group of terrorists, they are no longer victims.

    I just read that one of the militant groups claims to have launched a chemical tipped rocket into Israel earlier today, no confirmation yet:
    http://today.reuters.com/news/newsarticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyid=2006-06-29T013909Z_01_L29258645_RTRUKOC_0_US-MIDEAST-ROCKET.xml&src=rss&rpc=22
    If this is true then the electricty willbe a minor inconvience in what is about to happen. Tell me they can’t be that stupid to use a WMD?

67. Michael in SC Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 9:50 pm

    Why should civilians be collectively punished for the crimes of a wayward few? Answer me that.

    Because of public complicity with “the wayward few.” As in Iraq, insurgents operate only with the support of the populace. Once they lose that support they’re history. They simply cannot survive on their own.

    Who are you kidding?

68. Pissed off. Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 9:54 pm

    “Their borders are closed on all sides, there is absolutely no land to farm, and because of decades-long war and conflict, no sustainable economy whatsoever.”

    And whose fault is this? If the Arab nations hadn’t decided to MARTYR the entire Palestinian populace in the wars, then there wouldn’t be that problem.

    But no. Egypt, Jordan, Saudi.. they all said to the Palestinians “Go kill Isreal, we got your back”. But they didn’t have their back. They just sat back and watched as the IDF destroyed their armies. And now, even though the Palestinians are the ‘Arab cause’, they don’t get anything from their Muslim ‘brothers’. So much for the ‘Ummah’; that only exists when there are infidels to kill.

    Of course given that Muslims breed like rabbits, the Palestinians have had nothing but population growth. Throwaway population as the term may be. No wonder they don’t care about their people. They’re just Zerglings to the Israeli Protoss.

69. tommy Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 10:02 pm

    Mideastbeast asks:

    How about negotiating for the hostage’s release?

    Unfortunately, all those prisoner exchanges in the 90s have given Hamas the impression that kidnapping is a good idea. Negotiated releases are exactly what has led to this sort of phenomenon. It is time to send a clear message. No more negotiating. But don’t work MEB, they are negotiating through back channels.

    Alternatively, Israel could snatch up a bunch of Hamas people and make their release conditional on the soldier’s return.

    Frankly, being the SOB that I am, I would go even further: return the prisoner safe and sound, or we summarily execute all these Hamas clowns we rounded up.

    I hope this is the beginning of the end for Hamas. In fact, I hope it is the beginning of the end of the Palestinian Authority. I think that since Hamas refuses to recognize Israel and has taken the negotiation process back decades, the Israelis should return the favor: time to put the Palestinians back where they were in 1985: no PA, a heavily militarized occupation, only a small percentage of weapons compared to today, etc.

    Yes, I think maybe the Palestinians need a bit of a reminder to make them reverse course.

70. tommy Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 10:04 pm

    BTW, anybody know if Koffee Annan and Co. over at the United Nations issued a Strongly Worded Condemnationâ„¢ of the latest Israeli incursion yet?

71. Michael in SC Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 10:15 pm

    I’m ill over the term “higher standards.” This is a culture clash and you are seeing Western (yes, Judeo-Christian) verses Islamic (apparently) values. As mad as the Israelis are when the mayhem starts there will be little stomach for the carnage wrought. So I doubt there will be much, if any. Someone reassure me about the other side.

    As for “worth of women and children”, both sides feel the other is the one guilty of disrespect. So it becomes what’s the meaning of “respect”–sound familiar? The two sides just operate differently.

    How does one deal/negotiate with a “terrorist organization” that has been resoundingly and democratically elected by its own populace? OUR values don’t permit us to kill them all! Someone reassure me about the other side.

72. eee Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 10:17 pm

    > This is not true. Israel is in a state of war.

    No, Israel i s t h e s t a t e o f w a r - a gangster-state
    created by terror and ethnic cleansing, to make room for the
    hebrew master race.

    Garbage - which has not more right to exist than any other past
    colonial apartheid state - like South Africa.

    Boyott urgently needed.

73. AngryLibyan"American" Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 10:37 pm

    Hostages are not the same thing as Prisoners of War

    What is the diffrence Craig. Both are prisoners held against their will?

74. Babs Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 11:03 pm

    Why should civilians be collectively punished for the crimes of a wayward few?
    Because the Palestinians voted for this government;the same government that thinks they can now say that they are unable to control their citizens…

    The missiles lobbed into Israel have NOT killed A SINGLE person.

    Hundreds of missles have been lobbed into Israel. The fact that they have not killed anyone is irrelevant. The missles continue to this day… I ask again; for a people that say they are starving to death, don’t you find it strange that they have money for IED’s RPG’s and automatic weapons?

    To Havoc I say: If Israel wanted to seize more land they would have never given up Gaza…

    THERE IS NO PRODUCE IN GAZA. They have no products to ship out! Their borders are closed on all sides, there is absolutely no land to farm, and because of decades-long war and conflict, no sustainable economy whatsoever.

    Well, to this I say read this blog:
    http://a-mother-from-gaza.blogspot.com/

    It seems that this woman says that there is quite a bit of produce that had formerly been sold in Israel. The fact that Israel refused to allow the produce to enter their country caused quite a farming disaster. That is why I ask why other Islamic countries are not willing to trade with Palestinians?

    At the same time we have ppl in Israel who just wait for an excuse to seize more land from the palestinians.

    Which land is that as the Israelis have given up the Gaza and are ready to give up the settlements on the West Bank?

    why do people like you expect Egypt to pick up the pieces of the problems that Israel and the Palestinians have created in Gaza? Don’t expect us to solve your shit for you

    Because you are part of the Muslim collective??? You know, that group of people that want to wage war against the Jews and the West? Anyway, what do you have against improrting produce from Gaza?

    Their borders are closed on all sides,

    Including on the Egyptian side… Why is that since they are your Muslim brothers? Why doesn’t Egypt offer the Palestinians a seaport access to ship their goods? Why doesn’t Jordan offer the Palestinians a way to ship their goods to the greater Muslim world? Why is it that Israel is the ONLY WAY to ship Palestinian goods?

75. Babs Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 11:08 pm

    You know, I ask this in all seriousness; why doesn’t Jordan and Egypt sell power and provide water to Palestine? Why don’t the neighboring Islamic countries agree to trade pacts that would allow the Palestinians to sell their wares?
    Why are the Palestinians so dependant on Israel for their existance?

76. AngryLibyan"American" Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 11:51 pm

    You know, I ask this in all seriousness; why doesn’t Jordan and Egypt sell power and provide water to Palestine? Why don’t the neighboring Islamic countries agree to trade pacts that would allow the Palestinians to sell their wares?
    Why are the Palestinians so dependant on Israel for their existance.

    Well “Israel” is a illegal state. It has no right to exist, it is a colonial power with no mother land. So I geuss they have to deal with the native peoples they have occupied like all other colonialists have to.

77. eee Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 11:54 pm

    > Hostages are not the same thing as Prisoners of War

    Thugs they are - amnesians and the master race - , they twist
    the laws until they suit them - in Iraq, Cuba or Palestine.

    So…

    When the master race kills pal. civilians, the master race calls
    it the collateral damage of a w a r - if the pal. kill hebr. civilians,
    they are called terrorists by the same master race.

    The master race law simply declares, that the master race al-
    ways steals, robs, kidnaps, murders and deports lawfully - while
    their victims are terrorists by definition.

    That’s usual master race garbage.

78. eee Says:
    June 29th, 2006 at 11:59 pm

    > Why are the Palestinians so dependant on Israel for their existance?

    Why were the jews so dependent on Amon Goeth?

    Why didn’t they negotiate with Goeth and accepted his
    right to rule them - a.k.a. his right to exist?

    ROTFL.

79. Babs Says:
    June 30th, 2006 at 12:15 am

    Angry Libyan - Wow,what a bunch of crap! So, Israel is a coloniaL power, therefore the neighboring countries (that are Arab/Islamic cannot sell them anything?) Why is that? Why can the Arab world give Palestine just enough aide to feed their populace but refuses to allow them to immigrate to their countries? Why is it that the Arab world will give the Palestinians’s aid but don’t seem to know that a lot of that “aid” is going to buy weapons? Why does the Arab world rely on the Western world to provide the bulk of the aid to the Palestinians (if this weren’t so then why would the Palestinians be crying over the loss of Western Aid?)
    It really seems to me that if the Arab world believed in the Palestinian cause, then they would fund it… Why is it that the Palestinians are so devestated by the loss of Western funding? The Arab world is making a fortune on oil revenues… What is the Arab world doing with the oil revenues???

80. The Raccoon Says:
    June 30th, 2006 at 12:16 am

    Nomad -

    Apocalypse is indeed the order of the day. Especially with the US and the EU tripping over each other to give the utterly insane Iranian regime nukes.

    singing: “It’s the end of the world as we know it…”

81. tommy Says:
    June 30th, 2006 at 12:32 am

    AngryLibyan

    Prisoners of war are, in the sense they are usually referred to, people held under conditions of the Geneva Convention. POWs, as legitimate soldiers, cannot be tortured, have the right to be fed regularly, do a little bit of their religious shit, contact their family, and be visited by the Red Cross. None of that holds true for hostages.

82. tommy Says:
    June 30th, 2006 at 12:34 am

    Why were the jews so dependent on Amon Goeth?

    Why didn’t they negotiate with Goeth and accepted his
    right to rule them - a.k.a. his right to exist?

    ROTFL.

    Amon Goeth? WTF? I second that eee, I’m ROTFL also. That is hilarious. Amon Goeth from Auschwitz! LoL. You really are insane, eee.

83. tsedek Says:
    June 30th, 2006 at 12:39 am

    Babs, where else do you get your info from except from the whining one-sided blog you mentioned?

    “The missiles lobbed into Israel have NOT killed A SINGLE person.”

    IS A LIE. 5 people have been killed by them. Last year a one-and-a-half year old toddler right in front of his nursery while all other kids there got traumatized.

    The town Sderot is losing its occupants because they can’t live in that always existing threat anymore, more than half the people have to visit psychologists.

    If you lie do it good, not so slobby please you look so silly

    Tse.

84. kraussm Says:
    June 30th, 2006 at 12:57 am

    I think the philosophy of separating the world into “dar al Islam” and “dar al harb” might need a bit of reassessment if they really want peace, it seems the only peace Muhammed advocated was the peace of submission to tyranny, the west will not tolerate submission to Islam, so, get over it and move on.

85. eee Says:
    June 30th, 2006 at 12:58 am

    > Last year a one-and-a-half year old toddler right in front of his
    > nursery while all other kids there got traumatized.

    Yes, and then the master race invaded Gaza - killed appr. 120
    Pal. - including appr. 50 minors.

    And - it’s really hilarious to read the word “traumatized” from
    a zionist wannabe (?) - terrorists and ethnic cleansers which did
    and do everything possible to traumatize the n a t i v e a r a b
    population of palestine.

86. eee Says:
    June 30th, 2006 at 12:59 am

    > the west will not tolerate submission to Islam

    Israel is not the w e s t - unless the west is fascism.

87. tommy Says:
    June 30th, 2006 at 1:11 am

    Why is eee so t w i s t e d?

    Well, as you can see, he had a verbally abusive father.

88. Mideastbeast Says:
    June 30th, 2006 at 1:19 am

    Babs, I AM FUCKING SICK OF YOU EXPECTING EGYPT TO SOLVE THE PALESTINIAN PROBLEM. WE ARE NOT ALL MUSLIMS. WE close our border because they are a SECURITY THREAT. It’s up to Israel to solve this fucking problem because ISRAEL CREATED THIS MESS. Why should Egypt go through the trouble of trying and alleviate a problem it had no hand in shaping? I’m not going to listen to some random USA-living mother to validate your assertion that Gaza is full of produce. It is not. It’s the size of a fucking Wendy’s do you seriously think they have the space for farmland? And how do you expect them to farm with NO ELECTRICITY OR RUNNING WATER? How can they keep goods fresh?

    The unemployment rate in Gaza is over 50%, the per capita income there is less than $500. It is without doubt and without rival the poorest state in the Middle East. By the way, don’t make fucking stupid assumptions. The people who are starving are not the people who are buying those weapons. And do you wanna guess where the militants buy these weapons from? The answer is easily corruptable Israeli soldiers. The militants said so themselves on some dateline special. All Middle Easterners are the same. Driven by money and profit over morals. Israel is no exception.

    Also, to all you people who say a people are responsible for the government they elect. Are Americans to be held responsible for President Bush and his government? Are Americans responsible for the war in Iraq? If so, then isn’t EVERYTHING THE TERRORISTS HAVE BEEN SAYING ABSOLUTELY TRUE????? When terrorists say that Americans want to make war on Islam, and then America’s goverment goes and creates a conflict in Iraq that’s killed over 50,000 civilians, and if people are responsible for their elected government, then are Americans responsible for the deaths of 50,000 Iraqi civilians???

    OF COURSE NOT.

    and the same is true of Palestine. Cut the double standard crap. I don’t hold Israeli citizens responsible for blowing up the power station and the running water and I don’t expect you to hold Palestinian citizens, who are starving to death, responsible for the actions of some militants. This wasn’t even Hamas’ doing. This was the doing a of a radical militant group. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest it was even remotely state-sponsored. Maybe if Hamas hadn’t been put under so much pressure by this recent incursion they could be getting back to their meetings with Fatah WHERE THEY AGREED TO RECOGNIZE ISRAEL. Kiss that out the window.

89. AngryLibyan"American" Says:
    June 30th, 2006 at 1:31 am

    Thanks for the clarafication tommy.

    “Babs, I AM FUCKING SICK OF YOU EXPECTING EGYPT TO SOLVE THE PALESTINIAN PROBLEM. WE ARE NOT ALL MUSLIMS”

    93% of u r.lol

    “WE close our border because they are a SECURITY THREAT.”

    LOL. And Hosni’s face isn’t. Someone reading this post who does not know much about Egypt might actually think their is something in the poverty stricken shit hole that is worth securing.lol. U make Egypt sound like the Uk. A real nation with achivements who do not want outsiders fucking it up.lol

    The unemployment rate in Gaza is over 50%, the per capita income there is less than $500. It is without doubt and without rival the poorest state in the Middle East.

    They r not a state yet.

    When terrorists say that Americans want to make war on Islam, and then America’s goverment goes and creates a conflict in Iraq that’s killed over 50,000 civilians, and if people are responsible for their elected government, then are Americans responsible for the deaths of 50,000 Iraqi civilians?

    Good point. but i beg to differ. yes the egyptian people are not responsible for the decisions their government makes, because they are under a dictatorship, but Americans are a free and democratic people.

    “Why should Egypt go through the trouble of trying and alleviate a problem it had no hand in shaping? ”

    What the fuck r u talking about!!!!!! u do recollect a certain president by the name of nasser who took it upon himself to lose all the Palistians land.

90. Drima Says:
    June 30th, 2006 at 1:41 am

    I know Hamas’s action was stupid but also in a way it was very smart to keep their cause going as tsedek said @27

    I agree with Amgad’s assessment @39. Israel is going too far with its collective punishment.

91. Deathway Says:
    June 30th, 2006 at 1:46 am

    Mideastbeast,
    “And do you wanna guess where the militants buy these weapons from? The answer is easily corruptable Israeli soldiers. The militants said so themselves on some dateline special.” I would not exactly call their testimony reliable! They have an agenda, and I coud expect no better answer from them than precisely that.

    But I must agree with you about the “citizens are responsible for their elected government’s actions” analysis. You beat me to the reply. You can never, NEVER use that logic. Civivilans, regardless of who they vote for, are non-combatants and must be treated as such (except when they collaborate with the combatants). While I do support Israel’s responses against the constant terrorist activity from the Palestinian territories, the fact is, you simply cannot rationally argue that it’s ok that civilians will suffer from militray actions. It’s a given that they will in any situation, and it is fair to acknowledge that and even refer to it as a necessary evil, but civilains should never be consider guilty based on the actions of their elected officials. That is foolish, and it is precisely the argument terrorist and terror-symps use as their banner argument. I have hear that concept used against Israelis when I debated a number of Palestinians who actually claimed to be against terrorism yet defended the semi-recent suicide bombing in Tel Aviv.

    However… “Maybe if Hamas hadn’t been put under so much pressure by this recent incursion they could be getting back to their meetings with Fatah WHERE THEY AGREED TO RECOGNIZE ISRAEL. Kiss that out the window.” I must disagree again here, though. Hamas would never have conceded that. If they would have said so in words, the reality would never have changed. They exist solely to eliminate Israel and have been quite open about that fact, so any “agreement” by them would have been a farce.

92. tommy Says:
    June 30th, 2006 at 1:55 am

    Mideastbeast,

    It’s the size of a fucking Wendy’s do you seriously think they have the space for farmland…..the unemployment rate in Gaza is over 50%, the per capita income there is less than $500. It is without doubt and without rival the poorest state in the Middle East. By the way, don’t make fucking stupid assumptions. The people who are starving are not the people who are buying those weapons.

    Maybe as a first step, they should consider reducing the number of children they have. You know, having six fucking children per mature woman isn’t exactly the sort of behavior likely to increase employment or the standard of living. But of course, that would require the Palestinians to exercise a little common sense and plan for the future and give a shit about their own welfare, something they’ve never been too successful doing.

    As for the problems that exist today: they are the result of Arab aggression. Gaza and the West Bank would be non-issues for Israel if not for Arab aggression.

93. Mideastbeast Says:
    June 30th, 2006 at 2:07 am

    Libyan, Egypt is a real country and more successful state than you can imagine. It is the only Middle Eastern country that I would consider a real state because it’s not built off of oil wealth or the imaginations of some colonial visionaries like every other state. Egypt is a country worth securing, much more so than your Libyan piece of shit country that grovels at the feet of pitiful African countries for accpetance because even the lowliest Arabs look down on them.

    Deathway, you have no idea how thankful I was to find your post and realize that there is at least one other rational person in this little discussion. I’m sure the militants had an agenda and I don’t take their word for it, but I don’t find it hard to believe that some dissatisfied Israeli conscripts could be looking for a quick buck. I’m not going to stand by it 100% though. I totally agree with you that citizens are NEVER legimitate targets and that is why I am so forcefully against this recent Israeli incursion, just as I am against Palestinian militants. If Hamas didn’t agree, Fatah which would have forced a referendum that probably would have passed recognizing Israel. I think Hamas has somewhat legitimized itself since election and owuld probably abide by the results of a popular referendum.

    Tommy, I know that Palestinians have too many kids. But that’s not what we’re taking about here so completely changing the subject isn’t going to get you anywhere. I don’t think you can pigeonhole the Palestinians and say they “don’t give a shit about their own welfare.” that is illogical and dangerous. Everyday Palestinians do give a great deal of shit about their own welfare which is why they voted out a complacent, corrupt, and out-of-touch Fatah movement and which is why they have so much hatred for an Israeli occupation that restricts their mobility and ability to create a functioning economy. Problems are not the result of Arab aggression. Israel only gained lands in two of the four Arab wars. Those were the Suez war of 1956 and the Six-day war in 1967. Both of those wars were pre-emptive Israeli wars. Israeli struck first in both wars.

94. Twosret Says:
    June 30th, 2006 at 2:09 am

    “1. “There is a huge gap between us (Jews) and our enemies ­not just in ability but in morality, culture, sanctity of life, and conscience. They are our neighbors here, but it seems as if at a distance of a few hundred meters away, there are people who do not belong to our continent, to our world, but actually belong to a different galaxy.” Israeli president Moshe Katsav. The Jerusalem Post, May 10, 2001

    2. “The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more”…. Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000

    3. ” [The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs.” Menahim Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, “Begin and the Beasts”. New Statesman, 25 June 1982.

    4. “The Palestinians” would be crushed like grasshoppers … heads smashed against the boulders and walls.” ” Israeli Prime Minister (at the time) in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

    5. “When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle.” Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defense Forces, New York Times, 14 April 1983.

    6. “How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to.” Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.

    7. “There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed.” Golda Maier Israeli Prime Minister June 15, 1969

    8. “The thesis that the danger of genocide was hanging over us in June 1967 and that Israel was fighting for its physical existence is only bluff, which was born and developed after the war.” Israeli General Matityahu Peled, Ha’aretz, 19 March 1972.

    9. David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): “If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.

    9a. Ben Gurion also warned in 1948 : “We must do everything to insure they ( the Palestinians) never do return.” Assuring his fellow Zionists that Palestinians will never come back to their homes. “The old will die and the young will forget.”

    10. “We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves.” Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.

    11. “Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don’t worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it.” - Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001, to Shimon Peres, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio. (Certainly the FBI’s cover-up of the Israeli spy ring/phone tap scandal suggests that Mr. Sharon may not have been joking.

    12. “We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel… Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours.” Rafael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defense Forces - Gad Becker, Yediot Ahronot 13 April 1983, New York Times 14 April 1983.

    13. “We must do everything to ensure they [the Palestinian refugees] never do return” David Ben-Gurion, in his diary, 18 July 1948, quoted in Michael Bar Zohar’s Ben-Gurion: the Armed Prophet, Prentice-Hall, 1967, p. 157.

    15. “We should prepare to go over to the offensive. Our aim is to smash Lebanon, Trans-Jordan, and Syria. The weak point is Lebanon, for the Moslem regime is artificial and easy for us to undermine. We shall establish a Christian state there, and then we will smash the Arab Legion, eliminate Trans-Jordan; Syria will fall to us. We then bomb and move on and take Port Said, Alexandria and Sinai.” David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

    16. “We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.” Israel Koenig, “The Koenig Memorandum”

    17. “Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population.” Moshe Dayan, address to the Technion, Haifa, reported in Haaretz, April 4, 1969.

    18. “We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?’ Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said ‘Drive them out!’” Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

    19. Rabin’s description of the conquest of Lydda, after the completion of Plan Dalet. “We shall reduce the Arab population to a community of woodcutters and waiters” Uri Lubrani, PM Ben-Gurion’s special adviser on Arab Affairs, 1960. From “The Arabs in Israel” by Sabri Jiryas.

    20. “There are some who believe that the non-Jewish population, even in a high percentage, within our borders will be more effectively under our surveillance; and there are some who believe the contrary, i.e., that it is easier to carry out surveillance over the activities of a neighbor than over those of a tenant. [I] tend to support the latter view and have an additional argument:…the need to sustain the character of the state which will henceforth be Jewish…with a non-Jewish minority limited to 15 percent. I had already reached this fundamental position as early as 1940 [and] it is entered in my diary.” Joseph Weitz, head of the Jewish Agency’s Colonization Department. From Israel: an Apartheid State by Uri Davis, p.5.

    21. “Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements because everything we take now will stay ours… Everything we don’t grab will go to them.” Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

    22. “It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands.” Yoram Bar Porath, Yediot Aahronot, of 14 July 1972.

    23. “Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment… Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly.” Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization, speaking of the Arabs of Palestine, Complete Diaries, June 12, 1895 entry. “

95. Deathway Says:
    June 30th, 2006 at 2:33 am

    Twosret,
    I don;t have time t investigate the legitimacy of all your quotes, but I immediately recognized one that I found to be fraudulent in the recent past:
    ““Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don’t worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it.” - Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001, to Shimon Peres, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio. (Certainly the FBI’s cover-up of the Israeli spy ring/phone tap scandal suggests that Mr. Sharon may not have been joking.”
    This statement was never made, and this broadcast never occurred. It was reported only by a pro-Hamas “news” (propaganda) outlet and was attributed to a non-existing broadcast (this is done, because it gives the illusion of a source, but since it is not a printed one, it is difficult to verify without direct communication with the alleged source). The truth came out about it, eventually, but not before a gazillion sheep fell for it. Kol Yisrael has stated that the broadcast never occurred. It doesn’t take a very high I.Q. to recogize that is is made up upon one simple reading, but why should that stop it from being spread around? After all, it fits the agenda, right?
    Again, I cannot verify/challenge the validity of your other quotes, but the existence of the one makes the rest highly suspect.

96. Karen Says:
    June 30th, 2006 at 2:45 am

    Twosret, most of that is ancient history. Israel has pulled out of Lebanon, Gaza and some of the West Bank. Israel is giving, but not getting. The election of Hamas, the Kassam rockets and the events of the past few days is what Israel gets in return for attempting to work out a just settlement. We don’t need moderates like you Two. You always only present one very biased side of the story. There is nothing to talk about with you. You are in good company with eee and the Egyptian. You are one and the same.

97. Twosret Says:
    June 30th, 2006 at 3:08 am

    Deathway,

    Why should be believe your explanation and not my quote? It is a quote fest and I thought the above fits perfect

    Anything the Israelis can’t challange they pretend it never happened and we made it up

    Karen,

    Bla Bla Bla Bla

98. Karen Says:
    June 30th, 2006 at 3:12 am

    Bla, bla, bla. That is all you can ever say. You just drone on and on and cut and paste and cut and paste.

99. Twosret Says:
    June 30th, 2006 at 3:19 am

    The bully Karen is back (rolling my eyes)

100. Deathway Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 3:23 am

     Twosret,
     Why should you believe me? Because a Middle Eastern truth in media group researched it (a group made up of Israelis, Arabs and others from the region). Why? Because as wild as it may seem, the Islamo fascists are remarkably fond of propaganda and have a funny habit of making things up to get their sheep all fired up. Why? Because even the most brainless public figure would never make a comment so foolish about an ally (it would be suicide).
     Use your brain, and I mean more than the part that just regurgitates the same old Evil Zionistâ„¢ crap that I’ve heard almost word for word hundreds of times.

101. Deathway Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 3:25 am

     Hey! I got post 100! Sandmonkey, tell me oh tell me…
     WHAT DO I WIN?
     I think that’s actually a contest at WHMS, Hamas Radio: “All Anti-Evil Zionistâ„¢ Propaganda, All the Time.”
     Or is it “More Rockets, Less Talk”

102. Babs Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 3:30 am

     tsedek Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 12:39 am
     Babs, where else do you get your info from except from the whining one-sided blog you mentioned?

     “The missiles lobbed into Israel have NOT killed A SINGLE person.”

     IS A LIE. 5 people have been killed by them. Last year a one-and-a-half year old toddler right in front of his nursery while all other kids there got traumatized.

     Sorry,Tdedek, I didn’t mean to agree with that site… In fact, I don’t. I ment to highlight that site as an opinion that is rather set in stone and that will take a long time to change. I weep for any children that are being killed in the conflict. However, as I have said before, many of the Palestinian children are deliberately placed in harms way. This is something, as a Mother, that I would never allow and I know this from my heart. I would never allow a child in my charge to be in proximity to a loaded gun, an IED or an RPG. This is just something that I couldn’t abide. That is why I think poorly of Palestinian’ s that take their children to demonstrations with loaded weapons or, that are bust setting up “defensive positions” with children near by…
     If you thought differently of me, then I guess I didn’t express myself clearly enough. My point is, as I stated in my last post, is that Palestinians seem to expect Israelis to treat their citizens (the Palestinians), especially the children, better that they treat them themselves…

103. Curious Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 3:36 am

     Isn’t it ironic that the Hamas leaders that Israel arrested will be spending their time in air-conditioned jails with running water, three meals a day, and working electricity?

104. mike Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 3:44 am

     “There are some cultures that you just don’t surrender too. Ever.”

     And cultures that you treat without mercy. It doesn’t matter what Israel does or does not do tomorrow. The enemy will remain the same until you either eliminate the threat or crush it in a manner that takes away its will to fight. You might as well get it over with and finish them off. Compassion, mercy and the international community will only bring more conflict to your homeland in the future. If you finish them you end the conflict forever.

105. Mideastbeast Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 3:54 am

     Yes it is ironic and it is WRONG that the conditions for Palestininian civilians are worse than the conditions in Israeli prisons.

106. Mideastbeast Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 3:55 am

     Mike, you advocating fighting terrorism by foregoing compassion, not showing mercy or basic morallity, and foregoing international consensus or international law. You are a terrorist.

107. Karen Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 4:30 am

     Twosret, the hypocrite is still here.

108. mike Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 4:42 am

     So what?

109. Mideastbeast Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 5:10 am

     Mike if you are OK with being a terrorist that is your problem. It makes you one fucked up guy with one fucked up moral compass.

     This country is fucked.

     This world is fucked.

110. mike Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 6:11 am

     Sorry cupcake. My moral compass was never your issue to begin with. I could give a fuck what you think a terrorist is or isn’t. Killing civilians was crossed in 2001 and treatment of prisoners just jumped the shark.

     I am sorry (seriously) that you and yours have to deal with this bullshit. I wish that the pali’s and Israeli’s could hammer out an agreement (they can’t). I wish that islam would join the rest of the world. I wish the best for you.

     that said,

     you are fucked

     your world is fucked.

     (I am not thumping my chest, it’s just the way it goes)

111. Mideastbeast Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 6:14 am

     What do you mean “my world”? My family is Christian and has been since the very beginnings of the religion. I was born and raised in Los Angeles. I live there to this day. My world is your world, but I have basic humanity. This humanity instills in me a moral compassion that deplores prisoner abuse and the killing of civlians wherever it happens. This moral compassion makes me pity the victims of war in Israel, Palestine, America, Iraq, Egypt, and in the thousands of conflict in sub-Saharan Africa that we conveniently ignore.

112. The Raccoon Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 6:48 am

     MEB is right - we are ALL fucked. And the world is fucked.

     It’s up to us to make us and it unfucked, though. Which is why there have been no civilian casualties in Operation Summer Rains.

     And MEB… consider the following:

     “The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” - Thomas Jefferson

113. The Raccoon Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 6:51 am

     And regarding the approaching apocalypse:

     ““Our earth is degenerate in these latter days; there are signs that the world is speedily coming to an end; bribery and corruption are common; children no longer obey their parents; every man wants to write a book and the end of the world is evidently approaching,” attributed to an Assyrian stone tablet of about 2800 B.C.—William L. Patty and Louise S. Johnson, Personality and Adjustment, p. 277 (1953).”

     Don’t you get a “been there, done that” feeling sometimes?

114. nomad Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 7:16 am

     Especially with the US and the EU tripping over each other to give the utterly insane Iranian regime nukes

     but the main business done in that aera is made by and with Israel :
     goods, technique, employees… I concede not uranium !

     but they will get it, like you got it long time ago even in the same manner !

     I don’t think they intend to destroy their best partner !

     they fear teddy bear and uncle sam !

115. tommy Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 7:32 am

     I don’t think you can pigeonhole the Palestinians and say they “don’t give a shit about their own welfare.” that is illogical and dangerous.

     Precisely, but logic has never been an impediment for the Palestinians.

     Everyday Palestinians do give a great deal of shit about their own welfare which is why they voted out a complacent, corrupt, and out-of-touch Fatah movement

     …and voting in the more explicitly terroristic Hamas.

     Those were the Suez war of 1956 and the Six-day war in 1967. Both of those wars were pre-emptive Israeli wars. Israeli struck first in both wars.

     1956 War: Tensions between Israel and Egypt escalated after Palestinian refugees began to attack Israel from Gaza, then under the control of Egypt. Israel responded by sending commandos on raids into Gaza after the Palestinians. Egypt eventually went from not just tolerating and offering moral support to these Palestinian attackers but also by eventually backing them materially. Clearly Egypt, by failing to control the Palestinians on its side and then by actively endorsing them, was asking for trouble. Israel may have launched the first major offensive into Egypt, but Nasser was asking for it by sponsoring Palestinian terrorism from its turf.

     1967 War: Syria had already been sponsoring Palestinian raids inside Israeli territory. Egypt, in an aggressive maneuver, began massing its military on the Israeli border and attempted to shut down Israeli shipping through the Straits of Tiran. In addition to Egypt, Syria and Jordan began massing on the Israeli borders as well. With such aggressive posturing Israel had every reason to believe war was imminent and wisely, considering what a geographically small country it is and surrounding by massing enemies on all sides, preemptively struck. Of course, if Israel had hesitated it might have been overwhelmed and lost the war. You might argue that Nasser’s Egypt, along with his allies, meant no harm. I would say they had a funny way of showing it. Again, I assert that Arab aggression lies at the root of this war.

116. The Raccoon Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 8:02 am

     Uhm. Nomad, are you saying that Israel is giving Iran nuclear technology? *blink*

     Sure, one quarter of the world’s scientists are Jews… but as Albert Einstein has said about his involvement in developing nuclear weapons: “I should have been a carpenter”

117. nomad Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 8:09 am

     are you saying that Israel is giving Iran nuclear technology? *blink*

     nope, all other business, yeah !

118. Mideastbeast Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 8:28 am

     Massing troops and supporting insurgents is not a first strike. When israel delivers the first strike on both occasions, it is an Israeli war of aggression. Furthermore 1956 was a direct result of Nasser’s nationalization of the Suez Canal. British and French officials did not want to seem weak in the face of growing anti-colonial sentiment across the third world, they launched a military operation to get the Suez back and enlisted Israeli troops as the ground forces to take the Sinai and reach Suez. Israel was only glad to comply.

     Hamas was the better alternative to Fatah because it was less corrupt and it still is less corrupt vis a vis the Palestinian issue.

119. Andrew Brehm Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 8:33 am

     “Massing troops and supporting insurgents is not a first strike.”

     Yes, it is.

     “When israel delivers the first strike on both occasions, it is an Israeli war of
     aggression.”

     That is true. But Israel didn’t deliver the first strike on either occasion.

     “Furthermore 1956 was a direct result of Nasser’s nationalization of the Suez Canal.”

     An act of war, no less.

     “British and French officials did not want to seem weak in the face of growing anti-colonial sentiment across the third world, they launched a military operation to get the Suez back and enlisted Israeli troops as the ground forces to take the Sinai and reach Suez. Israel was only glad to comply.”

     True, because the illegal nationalization of a waterway that was open to international trade would affect neighbouring countries the most.

     Nasser’s crimes had nothing to do with “anti-colonial sentiments”. Nasser fought to make Palestine and Syria Egyptian colonies, not to free existing colonies.

     “Hamas was the better alternative to Fatah because it was less corrupt and it still is less corrupt vis a vis the Palestinian issue.”

     We’ll see how many Arabs will die due to Hamas’ “better” government. Then we will judge who was “better”.

120. Mideastbeast Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 8:44 am

     Andrew, Israel did deliver the first strike on both occasions. The question is which country fired first? In 1956 Israel started the land invasion and in 1967 it started things with an air raid. In neither occasion did the Arab forces fire a single bullet into Israeli territory or at an Israeli soldier until the Israeli raids/invasions.

     The nationalization had no impact on the opennes of the waterway and the Suez Canal was scheduled to be handed over to Egyptian authorities by 1959 anyway. Nationalizing it earlier was due to the need to procure funding to build the Aswan dam.

     Nasser did fight to free existing colonies which is why he was such a dear friend of people like Nehru and Tito and anti-colonial African leaders like Kwame Nkrumah and Patrice Lubumba.

121. Crazy White Boy Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 8:54 am

     I just hope this doesn’t end with a brilliant white flash!

122. Chip Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 8:55 am

     Sandmonkey, great Sun Tzu quote:

     “Those who excel in war first cultivate their own humanity and justice and
     maintain their laws and institutions. By these means they make their
     governments invincible.”

     HAMAS clearly fumbled the ball on that score. When the Israelis gave up Gaza it was obvious they didn’t plan on sitting around as a dart board for more terrorism. I doubt they’ll retake it for any period of time, but this was to be expected under the circumstances.

     If you don’t want to get your ass kicked, don’t play at war. It’s not a game.

     The world is getting sick of the many excuses and conspiracy theories. If land could buy peace Israel would give it all back tomorrow, you know, not counting Israel itself. But HAMAS won’t agree to Israel’s existence. Now it looks like Israel won’t agree to HAMAS’s existence either. Fair is fair.

123. The Raccoon Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 9:09 am

     Mideastbeast -

     So according to your logic, Beastie, were I to point a loaded gun at your forehead it would NOT be self-defense for you to kick me in the nuts?

     An interesting observation. Do you believe that you could kick me in the nuts while your gray matter is being ventilated?

     Do be reasonable.

124. nomad Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 9:11 am

     Sun TZU ‘quotes, it a bit of has been way of thinking the quarrels and wars,

     they were ment in an old mainly peasants country

     ant they could not deal in a fight urban insurgeance

125. Amgad Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 9:13 am

     So Israel, with its nuclear chemical and biological arsenal and the 300000 active duty soldiers can be annihilated by a punch of primitive militants using obsolete ineffective weapons.

126. Chip Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 9:14 am

     An urban insurgency is easy to crush if you think about it. When one power is much stronger than the other power, only their sense of humanity prevents them from doing what is necessary.

     As the Muslim jihadis keep pushing and pushing, attacking softer and softer targets, the collective global opinion will eventually harden. Don’t assume things won’t change. They always do.

127. The Raccoon Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 9:15 am

     Nomad - I misquoted Einstein. He said he should have been a plumber. And mate, sometimes your English is totally incomprehencible while at other times it’s crystal clear.

     Do you have Multiple Personality Disorder?

128. nomad Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 9:20 am

     Do you have Multiple Personality Disorder?

     it depends on the level of my work tireness

     yes I do work !

     may-be you understand french better !

129. The Raccoon Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 9:21 am

     Amgad - the Palestinians are not a threat to the existence of Israel. Yet. They’re trying very hard to be, though.

     Let me get this straight… are you calling the combined armies of Egypt, Syria and Jordan a “bunch of primitive militants using obsolete ineffective weapons”?

     I mean, sure, T82 is not Merkava MK3… but it’s not yet obsolete and it is certainly effective.

     Even though in one of the wars a single Israeli tank has managed to rout a Syrian heavy armor brigade.

130. The Raccoon Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 9:22 am

     Nomad - sorry, bro, didn’t learn French yet… it’s on the list, though, right after I am finished with Spanish and German

     Peace, brother - I am but joking. It’s all from love

131. Perplexed Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 9:25 am

     Israel and Palestine cannot agree.
     To show their exasperation and superiority, their various supporters trade insults.
     One hundred and twenty seven repetetive meaningless, pieces of drivel that convince nobody anything.

132. nomad Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 9:36 am

     brother, sister in fact

133. The Raccoon Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 9:41 am

     Nomad - pardon

     It’s the intention that counts

134. Amgad Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 9:42 am

     So the purpose of shelling Gaza and cutting water and electricity supply of the 1.3 million humans in it is to protect Israel from the existential threat posed by hamas militants. Yet you say that the hamas militants are too weak to threaten Israel while the Egyptian army, which is at peace with Israel for thirty years, is!!!!!!! I can not understand your logic of justify Israel ruthlessness by crying that you are facing an existential threat.

135. The Raccoon Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 9:52 am

     Amgad - I think you misunderstood.

     Hamas is not an existential threat to Israel, no matter how hard they try. Do you think it is reasonable to defend yourself only if you’re facing an existential threat? That is, if I was about to shoot you in the kneecap and not the head it would be wrong for you to defend yourself?

     Cutting electrical supply is a standard procedure - IDF operates best under the cover of darkness.

     I strongly suspect that it also serves to put pressure on the Palestinian population to stop harboring the terrorists. Yes, it’s not nice… but it’s much better than letting the terrorists and their enablers to think it’s OK to constantly fire rockets into Israel and to kidnap soldiers and civilians.

136. Chip Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 9:53 am

     Make that 131, Perplexed.

137. tsedek Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 10:04 am

     Okay, thanks for explaining that Babs

     But I’m aware that mothers do like to keep their children out of harms way usually EVERYWHERE. I think -except for those evil devils that train their children to be walking death machines- that sometimes they cannot do much about the influence of their environment….

     Read this:

     http://www.hbo.com/docs/programs/death_in_gaza/synopsis.html

     “After visiting Mohammed and his mother (who delivers a heartfelt plea for an end to talk of suicide and killing) and then watching the boys construct homemade explosives called “quwas”…..

     Tse.

138. Chip Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 10:16 am

     Really though, the people who created “Palestine” were the Romans. The modern people who claim to be Palestinian are actually just Arabs who are still angry about the 1967 War and managed to create this fictitious nationality. There was never a Palestine on little slivers of Jordan, Syria, and Egypt.

     Obviously the solution is for the Italians to take over the whole mess.

139. Amgad Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 10:37 am

     Palestinian nationality may be fictitious but the 1.3 million humans being shelled now are for real.

140. Andrew Brehm Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 10:45 am

     “I can not understand your logic of justify Israel ruthlessness by crying that you are facing an existential threat.”

     If Israel was truly ruthless, there would be no Palestinian Arabs left Israel could be afraid of.

141. Andrew Brehm Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 10:46 am

     “Palestinian nationality may be fictitious but the 1.3 million humans being shelled now are for real.”

     Israel has probably just forgotten that Arab Palestinians are allowed to kill Jews and attack Israel.

     How dare these evil Jews fight back!

142. Andrew Brehm Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 10:47 am

     “Palestine” is the pagan name for a region that the Qur’an refers to as the land G-d gave to the Jews.

     Is that not true?

143. The Raccoon Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 10:48 am

     Amgad - don’t lie, dear, it’s not nice. No civilians are being shelled and you know it… so why spread fictitious propaganda?

144. Amgad Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 11:33 am

     I did not know that all the Gaza population has converted into an army of all 1.3 million soldiers. I think the shells that Israel launches continuously are not smart enough to distinguish whether the human flesh burned by its explosion belong to militants or to children playing on the beach. Do not lie; causing explosions in civilian areas is a habitual practice of the IDF regardless of the inevitable killing of innocents.

145. The Raccoon Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 11:53 am

     Amgad - do not twist facts, dear, it’s also not nice

     If Gaza was really being shelled, there would be hundreds of thousands of casualties. Guess what - so far, there are 0. Nil. Nada. Zilch.

     Actually, sorry, now there is one - a terrorist. Allegedly killed.

     Let’s have a looksie at what’s actually happening, shall we?

     http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5131404.stm

     And this is from BBC, the biased, anti-Israeli propaganda mill (admittedly not as horrid as some of the others… I’d put it on 7 on a 1-to-10 anti-Israeli bias scale).

146. Andrew Brehm Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 12:35 pm

     “Amgad - do not twist facts, dear, it’s also not nice”

     Give him a break now. All of us try to make their case as well as they can.

     His case requires the invention of a million innocent victims. Otherwise Israel wouldn’t be evil.

     The worst outcome for Hamas would be an Israeli invasion without any Arab victims.

147. osaid Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 2:01 pm

     We, as Palestinians cannot approach a state of ours as long as we see this mess : every few group starts whatever it likes in behalf of all of us.

     I believe that Abbas is not in a position to do anything and right now there is no Palestinian Authority.

     I dont want to blame Israel for anything , coz we are doing serious mistakes and blaming Israel for it. Israel, after all, is the occupier and all this serves its interests directly and indirectly.

     We as Palestinians should raise our voice against these groups and do something about it.
     Gaining our independence and building a state is surely not done in the way we see it now
     thanks

148. osaid Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 2:03 pm

     Andrew : lets not argue much..i will cut it short for you friend : Israel’s presence in the west bank and Gaza is AGAINST INTERNATIONAL LAW.Israel is OCCUPYING west bank (67 borders)

     period.

149. osaid Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 2:30 pm

     Deathway : What about the rest of the quotes..were they invented by palestinians too ?

150. tsedek Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 2:31 pm

     Osaid #147: Applaus! That’s how I view the situation as well.

     Osaid #148: Is it? Where doest this say so? Since I was under the impression Gaza & the WB were retrieved from Egypte & Jordan - and not from any Palestinian State.

     (Not that, on humanitarian ground I won’t agree with you, but still officially this claim is rather shaky)

     Tse.

151. tsedek Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 2:40 pm

     Actually Osaid, al lot of people say a lot of things always, all the time, all over the world. To rectract the quotes to suit one’s goal is rather opportunistic and does not serve any justice. I can this instance put some quotes that contradict the quotes placed by Deathway.

     So, what have I done with that other than make myself look ridiculous?

     Tse.

152. Mohamed Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 2:56 pm

     Karen aka KiKi,

     I told you many times not to turn on your computer before you take your meds. I will have a word with you when I come home

153. Steven Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 3:13 pm

     Hello!

154. Andrew Brehm Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 3:13 pm

     “lets not argue much..i will cut it short for you friend : Israel’s presence in the west bank and Gaza is AGAINST INTERNATIONAL LAW.Israel is OCCUPYING west bank (67 borders) period.”

     Can you tell me which “international law” forbids the occupation of enemy territory and where else it was applied?

     Can you tell me whether you believe that Arafat was representing the Arab Palestinian people when he signed a peace treaty with Israel that accepted Israeli occupation of the territories until the conclusion of a final peace agreement?

     If he was, how can the occupation be against “international law”? If he was not, who would have been?

     Finally, as much as I respect your opinion in your first reply, I do wonder whether INTERNATIONAL LAW (in upper case) is not just something you made up. But since you are clearly an rational person otherwise, I will give you the benefit of the doubt: please quote the law and/or refer me to a source (and an example of where the law was previously applied).

     Thank you.

155. Steven Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 3:15 pm

     Mohammed, I have told you many times, not to write a post if all you can do is insult another person.

156. Andrew Brehm Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 3:20 pm

     “Gaining our independence and building a state is surely not done in the way we see it now”

     I don’t know much about internal Arab politics in Palestine, but I do recommend that Palestinian Arabs try setting up a real state in the West Bank (leave Gaza to Hamas, I understand that is where their powerbase is). Just make it clear to Israel that you don’t support the terrorists, start hunting them down, and give Israel an ultimatum (with no threat attached, Israel doesn’t react favouribly to those). Tell Israel that you will have finished founding the state in 201x and ask them to stay (but not to settle) until then. It’s important that you ask them to stay, you will need their firepower.

     In 201x make a great ceremony of it: lower an Israeli flag and replace it with an Arab Palestinian flag. (You might want to use a new flag that doesn’t look like all other Arabs’ flag to symbolise that you are your own people.)

     Depending on how convincing you can be, the border fence will then either be finished or removed.

     Then start on turning Gaza around.

     How many Arab Palestinians would support your views?

157. Steven Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 3:20 pm

     Heya, this is a short quote about how Israel acquired the area of land you are refering to as illegal. Resolution 242:

     ***** Quote…
     Following another surprising Israeli victory in the 1967 war, Israel ended up controlling the Sinai, the Golan Heights, the Gaza Strip, and the West Bank. In November of that year, the UN Security Council passed UN Resolution 242 which called for

     “Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict.”

     This was simply outrageous because earlier that year - despite being victorious after yet another genocidal provocation - Israeli prime minister Levi Eshkol had immediately offered Israel’s Arab enemies to take back these territories on condition that they promise never to attack Israel again. The Arabs refused.

     You read correctly: that’s all the Israelis were asking, and nothing like this — not even remotely like it — has ever happened in the history of warfare. Never before has a victorious state, after defending itself against an attack, and winning territory, offered to give it back in exchange for a promise of peace. And that’s without mentioning that the attack was an attempted genocide.

     But the Arabs refused!

     Given this, how could the UN Security Council now demand that Israel return these territories? That was simply absurd, not to mention immoral. The US could have used its veto power in the Security Council to stop this resolution, but didn’t.

     ***** End Quote *****

     Ok? That is the international law you are so pleased on mentioning. It is quite flawed as Israel has complete right to those lands, and 242 itself doesnt even specifically say that Israel has to leave all the land captured in 67.

     Absorb, learn, find the truth:
     http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths2/WarofAttrition.html#g3

     “This is the first war in history which has ended with the victors suing for peace and the vanquished calling for unconditional surrender.”
     —Abba Eban

     Meanwhile, I would like to give you this curious factoid:

     ***** Quote…
     But the PLO changed the charter merely to add the West Bank and Gaza. And this was the most embarrassing thing possible, see, because in the 1964 (and founding) Charter, the PLO had gone quite out of its way to explain, in a special article, that the West Bank and Gaza were not part of ‘Palestine’ (see above). So why not keep the slightly smaller definition of ‘Palestine’ of 1964? This one avoided a ridiculous spectacle and a major embarrassment, and moreover did not require the political absurdity of the PLO’s pretending to oppose Western colonialists while adopting the Western colonialist definition of the PLO’s supposed ancestral homeland! And yet, no: the PLO took the extraordinary step of re-writing its charter, in 1968, in order to chose the ridiculous spectacle, the major embarrassment, the political absurdity, and… the weakest legal case.

     Is there any logic to the PLO’s decisions? There is.

     To discover this PLO logic the trick is to notice, glinting like a needle in the haystack of tangled and nested absurdity, the following consistency:

     1) In 1964, the PLO’s definition of ‘Palestine’ corresponded, exactly, to the borders of the state of Israel.

     2) In 1968, the PLO’s definition of ‘Palestine’ corresponded, exactly, to the borders of the state of Israel.

     The only difference is that in those two dates the borders of Israel were not the same: in 1964 Israel did not control the West Bank and Gaza, and in 1968 it did. What happened between 1964 and 1968? The Six Day War of 1967, in this conflict, the Jordanians, who had been illegally squatting on the West Bank since the war of 1948, and the Egyptians, who had been doing the same on the Gaza strip, were kicked out of these territories when the Israelis defeated another proud attempt by the Arabs to exterminate the Israeli Jews.
     ***** End Quote *****

     

158. Deathway Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 3:21 pm

     Andrew,
     “The worst outcome for Hamas would be an Israeli invasion without any Arab victims.” Ah, but Hamas can create their own victims! Israel fails to kill civilians? Hamas will do it for them, and blame the Israelis.

     Osaiad,
     I have neither the time nor desire to research them all. I picked the one, because I had already researched it, having immediately recognized its falsehood the first time I saw it. It also would be more relevant given its contemporary nature rather than half-century old quotes surgically extracted from specious sources.
     By the way, Israel is only required by the UN resolution to withdraw to within the 67 borders as long as all Palestinian militants disarm. Don’t slice and dice, because you will be called on it, bud.

159. Andrew Brehm Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 3:25 pm

     Also, make sure that all citizenship questions are settled by then, specifically:

     1. Would the Samaritans of Samaria get citizenship?

     2. What about Israeli Samaritans?

     3. Would Israeli Arabs get citizenship?

     4. Would it be dual-citizenship?

     5. Would Israeli settlers get citizenship (if the settlements were not annexed by Israel)?

     6. Would the descendants of Jewish families from Hevron and other locations from before 1948 get citizenship?

     Also, do you want a capital in East Jerusalem (renamed to Al-Quds and without the old city, Israel won’t give it up) or in Ramallah?

     And what would be the official position regarding the temple mount? If it remains under Muslim control, would Jews be allowed to pray there? (I.e. is the current situation a symptom of the war or a symptom of general discrimination?)

160. Andrew Brehm Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 3:26 pm

     Would Christians get a special status in Bethlehem?

     Would minorities get similar minority rights as in Israel (i.e. preferred choice for civil servants, no mandatory military duty for some groups, own religious court systems etc.)?

     Are any of these questions settled yet?

     Will there be wars about them?

161. jonas Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 3:40 pm

     I dont want to blame Israel for anything , coz we are doing serious mistakes and blaming Israel for it. Israel, after all, is the occupier and all this serves its interests directly and indirectly.

     We as Palestinians should raise our voice against these groups and do something about it.
     Gaining our independence and building a state is surely not done in the way we see it now
     thanks

     I asked a muslim at the board where I hang out about what he would do if he was Hamas: stop fighting Israel and work toward peace for the Palestinians or continue the fight. He didn’t answer. And he’s one of the more “reasonable” Muslims I’ve met online.

162. nice Jewish Boy Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 3:49 pm

     Hey SM, can we get some more pix of beautiful ME girls? This other biz is really depressing me leading into the 4th of July extended weekend. The world won’t know peace until Muslims put the beauty of women above the beauty of death.

163. Steven Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 3:49 pm

     I know that extremist Islam is rampant, but there is no shortage of hatred from other groups too.

     Less of the “muslims” jonas… hatred and mis-information spans religions and borders.

164. Steven Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 3:56 pm

     More generalisations:

     “The world won’t know peace until Muslims put the beauty of women above the beauty of death.”

     I would rather you would not insult my friends by generalising about all Muslims.

165. Babs Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 3:59 pm

     Steven - to which groups do you refer?

166. jonas Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 4:01 pm

     Less of the “muslims” jonas… hatred and mis-information spans religions and borders.

     I am not generalizing, Steven, nor am I spreading hatred or misinformation. I am just relating a conversation I had. Although, if you want to be political correct about it, I should have said he’s an Iraqi Shia who currently resides in the US.

167. Steven Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 4:08 pm

     Steven:
     “I know that extremist Islam is rampant, but there is no shortage of hatred from other groups too.”

     Babs:
     “to which groups do you refer?”

     Jonas:
     “Although, if you want to be political correct about it, I should have said he’s an Iraqi Shia who currently resides in the US.”

     Maybe I was just being too PC - my answer to the first question will certainly not be very PC… so much so I am not yet going to answer it fully.

     Lets just say… it is everywhere. Ironically (yet predictably) the Jewish community is not an exception.

168. Steven Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 4:13 pm

     Jonas, maybe I was not very clear, I was not saying that you are spreading hatred or mis-information.

     What I was saying is that there are people from many different groups (not only from within the Muslim community) who we are fighting. The threat is deeper than just the Muslim community.

169. osaid Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 4:13 pm

     Brehm
     good day
     go to the UN archives and review its resolutions.
     The UN is situated in the USA, the state of Democrasy and Freedom !!

     I will try to provide yu with links, though it needs no links, its the ABC of the strugle, even Israelis wont argue with me on that !

     anyway
     thanks for yur comments!

     note: look at stevens posts !! they will help you.
     thanks

170. osaid Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 4:18 pm

     Steven : lol !

171. Steven Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 4:19 pm

     Heya Osaid!

172. osaid Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 4:25 pm

     Tsedek :
     thanks. i want you to know that there ar so many palestinians who share me with this view.this wasn’t an odd opinion.

     Jona : wts the relation between my quote and your story? Speak up your mind directly. This is a place where you can speak up !

173. Andrew Brehm Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 4:47 pm

     “go to the UN archives and review its resolutions.”

     But you didn’t say “resolutions”, you spoke of “international law”.

     UN General Assembly statements are NOT “international law” (their statements reflect world opinion, but the law is the same for every state).

     You are free to accuse Israel of violating international law, but you will have to back it up.

     Finding an anti-Israel bias in the UN is not the same as showing that Israel violated international law.

     That’s why I asked for the law in question and where else it was applied (if the law was made especially for Israel, I do not accept it as a “law”).

174. Steven Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 4:56 pm

     The “United Nations” is a complete joke at best and a frightening terrorist enabling forum at the worst.

175. Steven Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 4:58 pm

     Sadly I think it is “international law” because due to a decision in the “international court of justice”… but I will have to look that up to find the exact case.

     http://www.un.org/law/

176. jonas Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 5:03 pm

     Jona : wts the relation between my quote and your story? Speak up your mind directly. This is a place where you can speak up !

     Osaid,

     I apologize if I was not more clear. What I am trying to say is that not many Muslims/Middle Easterners that I have talked to share your views. By that, I mean,

     1) They are blaming Israel for most of the problems.
     2) They hesitate or will not admit that Palestinians made many mistakes.
     3) They rarely speak out against terrorist groups like Hamas.
     4) They have not been vocal about supporting nonviolent means to achieve peace.

     I have not seen many people of ME backgrounds who share your views, Osaid. I believe you are right, though.

177. nomad Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 5:06 pm

     quote from “Iran resist”

     A propos de la Résolution 242 du Conseil de sécurité de l’ONU, votée le 22 novembre 1967, et invoquée à cor et à cri par les partisans du Hamas… Par Liliane Messika [1]

     La guerre des six jours a été déclenchée par Israël qui a annihilé l’aviation égyptienne après que Nasser, le leader égyptien, eût fermé le détroit de Tiran à la navigation israélienne (un casus belli, aux termes de la Loi de la Mer du 27 avril 1958).

     Dans le même temps, l’ONU eût retiré ses casques bleus à la frontière israélo-égyptienne pour lui permettre de mettre en œuvre son programme officiel : « effacer Israël de la carte du monde », avec ses alliés syriens, libanais, algériens, marocains, koweïtiens, saoudiens, irakiens et jordaniens.

     Le 5 juin au matin, l’armée israélienne passa à l’offensive et anéantit toutes les armées arabes qui l’encerclaient, occupant le Sinaï, Sharm el Sheik, la bande de Gaza, les hauteurs du Golan et la Cisjordanie. Les combats cessèrent le 10 juin à 18 heures.

     Pourtant, le président de l’OLP, Ahmed Choukeiri avait déclaré, le 30 mai : « Il n’y a pas de moyen terme, rien ne sera accepté en dehors d’une libération. En cas de conflit, il ne restera pratiquement pas de survivants juifs en Palestine. »

     Non seulement le peuple juif resta dans son Etat, mais il se retrouva, de facto, avec la responsabilité de plus d’un million « d’Arabes de Palestine », ainsi qu’on les nommait alors.

     La Résolution 242 du Conseil de sécurité de l’ONU, votée le 22 novembre 1967, et invoquée à cor et à cri par les partisans du Hamas, stipule que «l’accomplissement des principes de la Charte exige l’instauration d’une paix juste et durable au Moyen-Orient qui devrait comprendre l’application des deux principes suivants :

     1. Retrait des forces armées israéliennes de territoires occupés lors du récent conflit,

     2. Cessation de toute menace ou état de belligérance et respect et reconnaissance de la souveraineté, de l’intégrité territoriale et de l’indépendance politique de chaque Etat de la région et de leur droit de vivre en paix à l’intérieur de frontières sûres et reconnues à l’abri de menaces ou d’actes de violences.

     (Elle) affirme la nécessité :

     a) De garantir la liberté de navigation sur les voies d’eau internationales de la région,

     b) De réaliser un juste règlement du problème des réfugiés,

     c) De garantir l’inviolabilité territoriale et l’indépendance politique de chaque Etat de la région, par des mesures comprenant la création de zones démilitarisées.»

     La clause 1 a provoqué de nombreuses controverses. Elle est inséparable de la suivante qui exige sans ambiguïté « la fin de toute menaces ou état de belligérance » et la reconnaissance que chaque État dans la région « a le droit de vivre en paix dans des frontières sûres et reconnues, à l’abri de menaces ou d’actes de violence. »

     En ce qui concerne le retrait, le Conseil de Sécurité ne dit pas qu’Israël doit se retirer de « tous les » territoires occupés après la Guerre des six jours. L’omission est volontaire.

     Les vaincus demandent une reddition inconditionnelle !

     Les pays arabes voulaient ajouter le mot « tous » devant « les territoires », et décidèrent de lire la résolution comme s’ils avaient obtenu gain de cause, alors que l’ONU avait choisi clairement l’option inverse.

     Lord Caradon, l’ambassadeur britannique qui rédigea la résolution finale, déclara : « Il aurait été erroné de demander qu’Israël retourne à ses positions du 4 juin 1967, parce que celles-ci étaient insatisfaisantes et artificielles. » [2]

     Quant à l’ambassadeur américain, Arthur Goldberg, il précisa que l’expression « frontières sûres et reconnues » avait été incluse intentionnellement parce que les parties étaient supposées faire « des ajustements territoriaux dans leur règlement de paix, lequel n’implique pas un retrait complet de forces israéliennes des territoires qu’il occupe, dans la mesure où les frontières antérieures avaient démontré qu’elles étaient particulièrement peu sûres. » [3]

     Pour les Etats arabes, la résolution 242 n’était acceptable que dans la mesure où elle exigeait un retrait total et inconditionnel d’Israël de tous les territoires occupés, ce qui n’était pas le cas. Ils la refusèrent donc et refusèrent même de s’asseoir à une table de négociations avec Israël, ce qui fit écrire à Abba Eban dans ses mémoires que « c’est la première guerre de l’histoire qui se termine avec un vainqueur courant après la paix et les vaincus lui demandant une reddition inconditionnelle ! » [4]

     L’OLP de son côté refusa la Résolution 242 déclarant que « la mise en oeuvre de ladite résolution mènera à la perte de tout espoir pour l’établissement de la paix et de la sécurité en Palestine et au Moyen Orient. » [5]

     Les Israéliens, eux, avaient accepté la Résolution : « Mon gouvernement a indiqué son acceptation de la résolution du Conseil de Sécurité pour la promotion d’un accord en vue de l’établissement d’une paix juste et durable. Je suis aussi autorisé à réaffirmer que nous sommes disposés à chercher un accord avec chacun des États arabes sur tous les sujets inclus dans cette résolution », déclara leur ambassadeur. [6]

     De fait, dans le cadre de l’accord signé avec la Syrie en 1974, Israël restitua à celle-ci les territoires qu’il avait conquis lors des guerres de 1967 et 1973.

     Aux termes du traité de paix signé en 1979 avec l’Égypte, il se retira pour la troisième fois consécutive de la péninsule du Sinaï. Il avait déjà évacué de larges portions de ce désert, conquis pendant la guerre de 1948. Après avoir, pendant la campagne de Suez de 1956, conquis à nouveau la totalité du désert du Sinaï, il l’avait rendu à l’Égypte un an plus tard.

     translation with a motor

178. Steven Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 5:07 pm

     I think these people do exist, but they are not strong, but weak, they are not a majority, but a minority.

     As long as the PA or Hamas (or any oher terrorist organisation) are in power over the Palestinian people there will not be a real peace.

179. Steven Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 5:10 pm

     Er, thanks Nomad… can you link us to it?

     What language is it?

180. Steven Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 5:11 pm

     Is that French?

181. Mohamed Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 5:12 pm

     Steven,

     That is exactly what I was trying to tell KiKi thanks for enforcing my point

182. nomad Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 5:15 pm

     Is that French?

     uh, you are our neigbourgh !

183. Steven Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 5:17 pm

     Woah, that was messed up. Here are some of the google translated sections:

     *****

     The six day old war was started by Israel which destroyed Egyptian aviation after Nasser, the Egyptian leader, had closed the strait of Tiran to Israeli navigation (a casus belli, under the Law of the Sea of April 27, 1958).

     *****

     That is not true, Egypt had declared a genocide against the Jewish people and blocking the straights is an act of war. This is a very poor document Nomad and a blind man could see its bias.

     I need not continue.

184. Steven Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 5:18 pm

     “That is exactly what I was trying to tell KiKi thanks for enforcing my point.”

     Karen has a name.

185. nomad Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 5:21 pm

     it’s your point of view

186. dug Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 5:24 pm

     Hamas just failed yet another IQ test..
     Payback is a bitch..

187. Mohamed Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 5:27 pm

     Thank you Ron Jacob

     “If the true goal of the current Israeli military actions in Gaza is to rescue the Israeli Defense Forces soldier recently taken prisoner, than there is no logic to the military destruction of Palestinian power plants. Not when those power plants provide forty-two percent of the electricity to the Palestinians. There is no logic in invading Gaza to retrieve one soldier in the Israeli Defense Forces, especially when such an action is more likely to lead to the soldier’s death. There is no logic in intimidating the president of Syria by buzzing his home with warplanes, especially if the reason for such an act is to retrieve one soldier in the IDF.

     From where I sit, that soldier appears to have become one more pawn in Tel Aviv’s attempt to destroy forever the Palestinian hope of a homeland. Like expansionist armies everywhere, the foot soldier is never more than a pawn in the game of the rulers. Whether that soldier is being sent to give his life in battle for the power and profit of a few or whether he is kidnapped and held for ransom, that soldier is never more than a pawn. If Tel Aviv was truly only interested in saving the life of the corporal from France, they would negotiate some kind of prisoner exchange. This is what the Palestinian forces have offered and this is all they want.

     This is why there is something more at play in Gaza right now. The much ballyhooed withdrawal of Israeli forces from the Gaza Strip last year has proven to be a sham. Not only does Tel Aviv control the borders and skies over that region, it also has freedom of movement both there and in the West Bank. The arrests of several elected Palestinians leaders on June 28, 2006 proves even further that the independent Palestinian nation we are told exists by Tel Aviv and its mentors in Washington, DC is nothing more than a sham. No wonder the majority of Palestinian civilians support taking the IDF soldier prisoner. After all, the Israeli government not only has thousands of Palestinians in its prisons, it also continues to kill civilians at an alarming rate, especially in light of Tel Aviv’s claims that it doesn’t mean to kill them.

     Like Washington in Iraq, there seems to be a sense in Tel Aviv that their overwhelming firepower and monetary superiority will achieve victory over the desire of the people whose lands they occupy to rid themselves of the occupation. Also like Washington, this belief in victory has led the military and political forces in Israel to deny their expressed principles and condone murder, torture and terror. In a poor imitation of their gods, these two capitals attempt to reshape these lands in their own image, no matter how many they have to kill and imprison. The citizens of both Israel and the United States, meanwhile, either support this denial of their nations’ principles and even urge for more repression and war; or they vainly struggle against these acts carried out in their name, hoping that someday the great unwashed majorities in both nations will finally become appalled at bloodlust and pillage done in their name. Done so that they may live in their cities and suburbs in constant denial; secure in their belief that they will never answer for the crimes in which we are all complicit.”

188. nomad Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 5:27 pm

     duggy, are talking to me ?

189. Steven Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 5:50 pm

     GERMANY WON!

190. nomad Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 5:58 pm

     foot ?

191. jloubelle Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 5:59 pm

     I’m really disturbed by this concept that arabs/muslims do not value life. I feel it’s used to dehumanize the muslim world — when the Gitmo prisoners committed suicide, the quote that was repeated over and over on the news was something to the effect of, “Look, these people place no value on their own lives or anyone else’s. Basically they just did this to piss us off.”

     It reminds me of the way the Japanese were dehumanized in WWII — the fact that they had kamikaze pilots was extrapolated to a belief that they were not human beings capable of human emotion. Made them lots easier to kill — in mass quantities.

192. Mohamed Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 6:02 pm

     Thank you Tilley someone in America is thinking right.

     “on Wednesday, Israeli war planes repeatedly bombed and utterly demolished Gaza’s only power plant. About 700,000 of Gaza’s 1.3 million people now have no electricity, and word is that power cannot be restored for six months.

     It is not the immediate human conditions created by this strike that are monumental. Those conditions are, of course, bad enough. No lights, no refrigerators, no fans through the suffocating Gaza summer heat. No going outside for air, due to ongoing bombing and Israel’s impending military assault. In the hot darkness, massive explosions shake the cities, close and far, while repeated sonic booms are doubtless wreaking the havoc they have wrought before: smashing windows, sending children screaming into the arms of terrified adults, old people collapsing with heart failure, pregnant women collapsing with spontaneous abortions. Mass terror, despair, desperate hoarding of food and water. And no radios, television, cell phones, or laptops (for the few who have them), and so no way to get news of how long this nightmare might go on.

     But this time, the situation is worse than that. As food in the refrigerators spoils, the only remaining food is grains. Most people cook with gas, but with the borders sealed, soon there will be no gas. When family-kitchen propane tanks run out, there will be no cooking. No cooked lentils or beans, no humus, no bread ­ the staples Palestinian foods, the only food for the poor. (And there is no firewood or coal in dry, overcrowded Gaza.)

     And yet, even all this misery is overshadowed by a grimmer fact: no water. Gaza’s public water supply is pumped by electricity. The taps, too, are dry. No sewage system. And again, word is that the electricity is out for at least six months.

     The Gaza aquifer is already contaminated with sea water and sewage, due to over-pumping (partly by those now-abandoned Israeli settlements) and the grossly inadequate sewage system. To be drinkable, well water is purified through machinery run by electricity. Otherwise, the brackish water must at least be boiled before it can be consumed, but this requires electricity or gas. And people will soon have neither.

     Drinking unpurified water means sickness, even cholera. If cholera breaks out, it will spread like wildfire in a population so densely packed and lacking fuel or water for sanitation. And the hospitals and clinics aren’t functioning, either, because there is no electricity.”

     Finally, people can’t leave. None of the neighboring countries have resources to absorb a million desperate and impoverished refugees: logistically and politically, the flood would entirely destabilize Egypt, for example. But Palestinians in Gaza can’t seek sanctuary with their relatives in the West Bank, either, because they can’t get out of Gaza to get there. They can’t even go over the border into Egypt and around through Jordan, because Israel will no longer allow people with Gaza identification cards to enter the West Bank. In any case, a cordon of Palestinian police are blocking people from trying to scramble over the Egyptian border–and war refugees have tried, through a hole blown open by militants, clutching packages and children.

     In short, over a million civilians are now trapped, hunkered in their homes listening to Israeli shells, while facing the awful prospect, within days or weeks, of having to give toxic water to their children that may consign them to quick but agonizing deaths. “

193. Mideastbeast Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 6:06 pm

     Anybody who refers to Israel and Palestine as Judea and Samaria should be shot. Get real people. Stop living in imaginary fairy tales concocted millenia ago.

194. nomad Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 6:17 pm

     it ’s true !

     but what can I do ?

     I am anonimous and obviously no powered one to deal with it

     geopolitic are above us

     it does’nt prevent us to have a feeling about the things work

195. Chip Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 6:18 pm

     Anybody who refers to Israel and Palestine as Judea and Samaria should be shot.

     So much for me caring about what happens to people who elected a terrorist organization for a “government.”

     Your inhumanity is duly noted. Carping about civilians is only a tool for the supporters of HAMAS. You know it’s our weakness. HAMAS loves to prattle on about “martyrdom” when they’re killing Jews. Well, here’s your martyrdom. Enjoy!

196. eee Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 6:27 pm

     > I agree with Amgad’s assessment @39. Israel is going
     > too far with its collective punishment.

     No - Israel is not “going” to far - Israel does, what a fascist jewish
     state has to do - deport the native arab population - or kill them
     finally by starvation and diseases if they don’t go away.

     It’s like in germany, where Eichmann started his career as an
     “expert” in the deportation business. That’s what Israel does
     today with its racist marriage laws and others, that allow them
     to steal arab land l e g a l l y in 2006 from arabs with israeli passports(!).

     The concept of balance that lurkes in the background - “they
     go too far” - simply ignores the fact, that fascism cannot be
     appeased - even if it’s a jewish - hebrew - fascism.

197. Gadfly Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 6:30 pm

     *chuckle @ Chip*

     You sound as fed-up as I am.

     “Have some virgins on me, Martyr Boy.”

198. Steven Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 6:39 pm

     Heya eee

199. nomad Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 6:47 pm

     well , these quarrels are not our vicinous ones, but we have a tremendous islam population, and we cannot ignorate them, what ever we do or think may be translated in insane and alternatively for jewish peopple, that is why we mainly care of humanitarism, and in these evenements, we have the kindness view for the people who suffer

200. tommy Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 6:47 pm

     Mideastbeast,

     Massing troops and supporting insurgents is not a first strike. When israel delivers the first strike on both occasions, it is an Israeli war of aggression.

     Supporting insurgents in acts of war is definitely a first strike in my book.

     Allowing multiple armies to mass on your borders if you are a country as tiny as Israel and doing nothing would be tantamount to risking national suicide. If you ran a country as small a Israel and knew that your best hope lied in a first strike against such massing armies, would you sit around and do nothing? If so, you probably wouldn’t make much of a military commander. Again, such posturing on the part of the Arabs was completely unnecessary. Israel did the strategically smart thing. As for the British and French, you are right, they had their own colonial reasons but I seriously doubt that Israel would risk a war with multiple Arab nations that might result in its own destruction unless it felt that such action was imperative.

201. tommy Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 6:53 pm

     Chip said:

     Obviously the solution is for the Italians to take over the whole mess.

     LOL. I can see the Italians, who have had 60+ governments since World War II, attempting to fix the situation. That would be hilarious.

202. tommy Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 6:56 pm

     In short, over a million civilians are now trapped, hunkered in their homes listening to Israeli shells, while facing the awful prospect, within days or weeks, of having to give toxic water to their children that may consign them to quick but agonizing deaths.

     And to think, all the Palestinians have to do is turn over the hostage to avoid that. Hmmm…..and weren’t we just hearing about how the Palestinians really do care about their own welfare.

203. Steven Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 7:07 pm

     Most people will not commit atrocities against eachother unless they feel that it is in self-defence… this is the steriotyping that exists against the Jewish people, and has done for hundereds or thousands of years.

     You are right jloubelle, it is disturbing. I am not sure about your ananology to WW2 though.

204. nomad Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 7:08 pm

     tommy I wonder what kind of man you are , still in part of belligerant winning part one, doesn’t matter who they are , you are for the winners ?na ?

     your are an interesting case, for I am interested in psychologie

205. Steven Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 7:11 pm

     Mohamed, I understand that long description of suffering Palestinians…

     You forget to point out that all the Palestinins needed to do was release a kidnaped Israeli - they chose not too, the ball was in their court, and so is the respinsibility.

206. Steven Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 7:12 pm

     “In short, over a million civilians are now trapped, hunkered in their homes listening to Israeli shells, while facing the awful prospect, within days or weeks, of having to give toxic water to their children that may consign them to quick but agonizing deaths.

     And to think, all the Palestinians have to do is turn over the hostage to avoid that. Hmmm…..and weren’t we just hearing about how the Palestinians really do care about their own welfare.”

     Exactly. I second that Tommy. Good posts.

207. AngryLibyan"American" Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 7:16 pm

     Libyan, Egypt is a real country and more successful state than you can imagine. It is the only Middle Eastern country that I would consider a real state because it’s not built off of oil wealth or the imaginations of some colonial visionaries like every other state. Egypt is a country worth securing, much more so than your Libyan piece of shit country that grovels at the feet of pitiful African countries for accpetance because even the lowliest Arabs look down on them.

     Pitful African Countries, U do know that Egypt is an Imazigan land. get out of country camel jockey, and go back 2 arabia, land theif. P.S Egypt is not a part of the Mid-East its a part of tamizight.

208. nomad Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 7:21 pm

     steven, you are a spoiled one, no cares of others, israel war is not an sufficiant deal !

209. Steven Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 7:21 pm

     AngryLibyan - Heya.

     Israel is a state built from intelligence.

     http://israel21c.com

210. Steven Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 7:23 pm

     1) Steven, you are a spoiled one, no cares of others.
     2) Israel war is not an sufficiant deal!

     For point #1 you are incorrect.
     For point #2, I do not understand what you just wrote, what do you mean?

211. nomad Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 7:38 pm

     first, you didn’t tell me why GERMANY won

     second I am not sure of your pity for unamed people,

     even withthe laws of “guerra” you withdraw
     the impact in poûlation

212. nomad Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 7:46 pm

     merda, I look as suppo hamas, ; I don’t care !

     me wants the peace with people living around me

     and your are not wanting the same !

213. Mideastbeast Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 8:33 pm

     Chip, if you could not detect my sarcasm you are retarded. But how did my anger against those who call Israel and Palestine Judea and Samaria have any links whatsoever to the current situation? It doesn’t and being against the use of antiquated faux biblical terms to describe lands is not taking sides in a conflict. I’m not a Hamas supporter and my people have been suffering at the hands of Islamofascism for infinitely longer than yours have. Yet we have survived and thrived while you guys havent figured anything out yet.

     Libyan, egypt is not Imazigh, OK? It is an Egyptian land for Egyptians. Not Arabs, not Berbers, not black people. Now go back to your dream world and get the fuck out of American if you hate it so much.

214. Twosret Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 8:33 pm

     Steven,

     ALL the Palestinians are the kidnappers of the soldier and they can ALL release him? this is the core of the problem, the 700,000 people who are currently in the dark (don’t understand how cutting power on them by bombing a plant will help release the soldier) were not the kidnappers.

     Arresting the law makers and the Parlement members will release the soldier? That reminds me of Arafat under seige in Ramallah

     http://www.time.com/time/photoessays/ramallah/

     It really doesn’t matter who leads the Palestinians they will either be arrested or under seige.

215. Babs Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 8:58 pm

     Twosret - If you still don’t understand how ALL PALESTINIANS are now culpable for the murder of 2 IDF and the kidnap of one, then you don’t understand how democracy works…
     When you live under a democracy you, the voter, are responsible for the actions of your gov’t. I have heard others argue on this same thread that American voters are NOT responsible for the actions of their gov’t. This is incorrect… All Americans are responsaible for the actions of their gov’t as are ALL PALESTINIANS.
     The funny thing is, I don’t see Palestinians launching “peace protests”asking that whome ever kidnapped the Israeli soldier, please release him. If I saw that I would at least have some sympathy for the Palestinian populace. On the contrary, I see Palestinians bringing their young children to protests where live ammo is shot into the air; endangering themselves and their children…

216. eee Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 8:59 pm

     Hebraic fascists don’t need Zyklon B.

     Their genocide will be a more traditional one - a genocide
     similar to that the amnesian masters applied in Iraq in
     the early 90’s:

     
     And yet, even all this misery is overshadowed by a grimmer
     fact: no water. Gaza’s public water supply is pumped by
     electricity. The taps, too, are dry. No sewage system. And
     again, word is that the electricity is out for at least six
     months.

     The Gaza aquifer is already contaminated with sea water and
     sewage, due to over-pumping (partly by those now-abandoned
     Israeli settlements) and the grossly inadequate sewage system.
     To be drinkable, well water is purified through machinery
     run by electricity. Otherwise, the brackish water must at
     least be boiled before it can be consumed, but this requires
     electricity or gas. And people will soon have neither.

     Drinking unpurified water means sickness, even cholera. If
     cholera breaks out, it will spread like wildfire in a
     population so densely packed and lacking fuel or water for
     sanitation. And the hospitals and clinics aren’t functioning,
     either, because there is no electricity.

     Hebraic fascism must be wiped from the map.

217. eee Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 9:04 pm

     > All Americans are responsaible for the actions of their gov’t as are

     Yeah. At least 5 million am. children need to be killed, your
     house needs to teared down, your daughter to be executed,
     your town to be carpetbombed and you need to be sodomized
     by an israeli “interrogation” expert.

     This is what should be applied on you Babs - because you
     voted for the massmurderers in the oval office.

218. nomad Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 9:05 pm

     I want Craig right now !

     he does know how military curses ought to be

     (I am your double )

     I expect you would be the sensitive one

     you know,

     the legionaires legend !

     a song of of our piaf

219. Babs Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 9:06 pm

     191 - So, why do you think the prisoneers in Gitmo killed themselves? It is my understanding that they had access to very good food, their religion, sports , medical care (the average Gitmo prisioner has gained 18 lbs. and, had his teeth fixed if needed) and a library… So, what was the reason, in your opinion?

220. eee Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 9:11 pm

     > So, why do you think the prisoneers in Gitmo killed themselves?

     Aaaah, not to forget to keep you in a prison for the rest of your
     dumb life - teeth fixed and well fed with freedom fries.

221. kraussm Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 9:16 pm

     After Arafat failed to install himself as king in Jordan, and Lebanon, he did manage to install himself as king of the ‘refugees” most of which went to Israel for jobs and then were refused to return to jordan, syria, or egypt. he then managed to play the media rather well and get money sent to him, lots of it, you see, terrorism is big buisiness, Arafat, worth very little in the ’70s, was worth close to 6 billion dollars when he croaked, his family lives rather well in france, thanks to the “welfare” he recieved from the world, (which either bought weapons, or went to his personal accounts, damn shure didn’t buy food for the starving masses).

222. AngryLibyan"AmericAN" Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 9:16 pm

     Libyan, egypt is not Imazigh, OK? It is an Egyptian land for Egyptians.

     Beg to differ.

     STEVEN.LOL
     Egypt is built on Hummas.

223. The Raccoon Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 9:16 pm

     Ahh yes, the portable latrine has arrived…

     *tears our eee’s left eyeball and urinates into the empty eyesocket*

     You can go now.

224. Steven Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 9:26 pm

     first, you didn’t tell me why GERMANY won second I am not sure of your pity for unamed people, even withthe laws of “guerra” you withdraw the impact in poûlation .

     Hello again Nomad. You are such a polite individual, it is a pleasure to meet you.

     So your first question was “Why did Germany win?”
     - Germany just won their stage in the world cup on penalties, it was a very good match.

     As for how sure you are of my “pity for unarmed people”, well - I do not need to proove myself to every idiot who crosses my path. Let me just say that you are wrong, then I would like to follow up by saying that your accusation is pathetic. Attacking someone personally is pointless, if you do not like something that I have said, bring up a point and debate it. I am not above being prooven wrong.

     I would like to understand what you are trying to say here: “even withthe laws of ‘guerra’ you withdraw the impact in poûlation.”

     That doesn’t make sense to me, please could you write this again in a different way.

225. nomad Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 9:26 pm

     I don’t know how to deal with that thing

     all refiugies, want to come in Frrance

     merda, we have enough problem

     go and see otherwhere !

226. Babs Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 9:38 pm

     This is what should be applied on you Babs - because you
     voted for the massmurderers in the oval office.

     Bring it on eee - oh, that’s right, you have no power… My gov’t intervened in Iraq to stop wholesale murder. Sorry that we woke you up from your dream… In addition, the American people grew a bit tired of “patrolling” the airspace over Iraq to stop Muslims from killing other Muslims… It seems you were happy with that intervention!

227. nomad Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 9:39 pm

     steven

     thanks a lot I did not care watching the match

     yes I a am polite, BUT I don’t care of what you are arguing, you are not living in situarion

228. Steven Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 9:42 pm

     Heya Twosret.

     “ALL the Palestinians are the kidnappers of the soldier and they can ALL release him? this is the core of the problem, the 700,000 people who are currently in the dark (don’t understand how cutting power on them by bombing a plant will help release the soldier) were not the kidnappers.”

     I understand where you are coming from here. The Palestinians however are a unit. They have a society, if they all wanted too, they could have that soldier released, or their government who represents them would deal with the situation…

     But the Palestinians are not a responsible society and will not bring these terrorists to justice… mainly because their government is one of the largest terrorist groups in the world, let alone in the surrounding area.

     The Palestinians must take responsibilty for their actions, that means that they have to set up a society that is built on the rule of law, a society where terrorism is a criminal offence and terrorists are dealt with, that would mean that Hamas and the PA would have to be disbanded. Until this time comes, Israel has got to take matters into its own hands. If the Palestinians refuse to put terrorists to justice and prevent them from attacking Israeli civilans, the responsibility falls on Israel to deal with the threat.

     “Arresting the law makers and the Parlement members will release the soldier?”

     These people are members of Hamas, Hamas are not a ligitimate government but an intercontinental terrorist organisation. Hamas has the ability to stop this terrorism, but they don’t. The simple fact that Hamas has endorced these attacks makes them responsible and members of Hamas are fair game.

     “That reminds me of Arafat under seige in Ramallah”

     Arafat was also a terrorist, his movement Al Fatah was an extention of Nazism, Arafat was mentored by the Grand Mufti Al Husseini who worked with Adolf Hitler and supported spreading the Nazi genocide. Al Fatah is responsible for stealing money from innocent Palestinians, building an indoctrination program for their youth, and starting the violence such as the intifada. Arafat is responsible for the murders of hundereds, if not thousands, of innocent Israeli civilians.

     “It really doesn’t matter who leads the Palestinians they will either be arrested or under seige. ”

     If it is the PA or Hamas, you may be right there. The PA and Hamas never supported co-existance with Israel and still do not support peace. When the Palestinians do get their act together and kick out these terrorist gangs and aim to build a peaceful country for themselves, Israelis will support them.

     Look at Abbas for example - he is a terrorist too, and his degree is in Holocaust denial. His own organisation Al Fatah is still responsible for frequent terrorist attacks however Israel sees him as the best hope for peace. This is foolish, Abbas is not a peace partner, but Israel is so desperate to achieve peace they are blinded by hope.

     This is a reproduction of my above post on resolution 242 which should demonstrate Israel’s desperate desire for peace:

     *****

     Following another surprising Israeli victory in the 1967 war, Israel ended up controlling the Sinai, the Golan Heights, the Gaza Strip, and the West Bank. In November of that year, the UN Security Council passed UN Resolution 242 which called for

     “Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict.”

     This was simply outrageous because earlier that year - despite being victorious after yet another genocidal provocation - Israeli prime minister Levi Eshkol had immediately offered Israel’s Arab enemies to take back these territories on condition that they promise never to attack Israel again. The Arabs refused.

     You read correctly: that’s all the Israelis were asking, and nothing like this — not even remotely like it — has ever happened in the history of warfare. Never before has a victorious state, after defending itself against an attack, and winning territory, offered to give it back in exchange for a promise of peace. And that’s without mentioning that the attack was an attempted genocide.

     But the Arabs refused!

     Given this, how could the UN Security Council now demand that Israel return these territories? That was simply absurd, not to mention immoral. The US could have used its veto power in the Security Council to stop this resolution, but didn’t.

     *****

     

229. eee Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 9:43 pm

     > After Arafat failed to install himself as king in Jordan,
     > and Lebanon, he did manage to install himself as
     > king of the ‘refugees” …

     My gawd - a zionist parrot on Arafat - how boring.

     At the end Arafat was simply a deparate clown, who thought
     that appeasing hebrew fascism and their puppets in Washington
     - or vice versa ? - would help him to become the king of a Ban-
     tustan.

     This was his worst crime. All other crimes are dwarfed by the
     hebrew fascists from Poland, Russia, Germany or Amnesia.

     Bring the boys home.

230. Babs Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 9:45 pm

     eee - I will rteply to you no more as I think you are insane… So, say what you will; the more horrific the better because, I will not respond.

231. Steven Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 9:48 pm

     “steven
     thanks a lot I did not care watching the match
     yes I a am polite, BUT I don’t care of what you are arguing, you are not living in situarion ”

     I was actually being sarcastic there, but never mind.
     You do not know me, not how close I am to the situation.

232. eee Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 9:50 pm

     > Bring it on eee - oh, that’s right, you have no power…

     Correct. If all those innocent people that were killed “with”
     your ballot would have the required bullets, you were
     dead in a fraction of a second - shot by people from Chile,
     Guatemala, Vietnam, Greece, Philippines, Korea or
     Afghanistan.

     > My gov’t intervened in Iraq to stop wholesale murder.

     Your fucks in the government helped to install the killer,
     and killed later hundred thousands of iraqis, when the
     killer no longer worked for them.

     You - voter for a government of killers are resposible for
     these killings - so far deserve to be punished.

     Very simple - even for amnesians.

233. Steven Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 9:56 pm

     eee, have you thought of taking Tai Chi?

234. eee Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 9:59 pm

     > will rteply to you no more as I think you are insane…

     A common observation: The more insane amnesians are,
     the more they insist to be kind and humane.

     This is some kind of a cognitive disease of the neo-colonial
     mind - also standard in israel, where beggars, thieves and
     murderers believe to be t h e v i c t i m s !

     But the US is far more deadly and foul. But - no more pro-
     tection from the US - no more sport - killing pal. - for the
     defecating master race.

     Pee on everybody.

235. nomad Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 9:59 pm

     up to you if you foolish yourself

     you are not the world !

236. eee Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 10:03 pm

     Stevie - stop boring me - take a gun and kill another
     pal. child to make some hebrew matzahs from it’s blood.

     Afterwards tell us some more fairy tales about your pal.
     “friends”, whose nieces and nephews you’ve killed.

     Yawn.

237. eee Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 10:06 pm

     > you are not the world !

     Me?

     Pee on everybody - it’s an hebraic practice - so it must be good.
     Swallow.

238. Steven Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 10:10 pm

     “# eee Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 10:03 pm

     Stevie - stop boring me - take a gun and kill another
     pal. child to make some hebrew matzahs from it’s blood.

     Afterwards tell us some more fairy tales about your pal.
     “friends”, whose nieces and nephews you’ve killed.

     Yawn.”

     eee, you and I both know that the libel is a sadistic joke. Thats fine… but I happen to know that some people here are actually offended by this old libel and think of the children who have been killed in this conflict when they read what you have written. Have some considderation for some of the people here, and the children who have been killed in this conflict.

     Twosret, that is for you.

239. Steven Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 10:12 pm

     “Pee on everybody - it’s an hebraic practice - so it must be good.
     Swallow.”

     LoL.

240. nomad Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 10:14 pm

     cherie, I didn’t ment you, but it is OK for you too

     and pee is polite , I woul say piss

241. Steven Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 10:15 pm

     Do we all have to insult eachother? I mean, where does it get us?

242. Babs Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 10:22 pm

     It gets us no where… I happen to think that “Al Gore’s Internet” will be the salvation of us all as ordinary people (eee excluded because he is delusional) will solve their problems in one on one humanity, politicians be damned!

243. nomad Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 10:26 pm

     no Steven, the realism is Craig

     the military view, and I have a profond respect fot it

244. Steven Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 10:28 pm

     nomad, I do not mean this in any bad way, I really do not understand you.

245. Steven Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 10:29 pm

     What are you trying to say?

246. osaid Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 10:32 pm

     Hello
     Raccoon , steven and friends…
     You asked for documentation about water, occupation and the wall in PALESTINE.
     here is a link for which you can choose whatever document you want ( from the UNITED NATIONS RECORDS ), all are summarized in one point : Israeli presence in the west bank and gaza is OCCUPATION.

     take the issue of water,Raccoon, for instance :Resolution adopted by the General Assembly
     [ on the report of the Second Committee (A/60/484)]

     Quoting
     …………………………………………………………………………………………….
     60/183. Permanent sovereignty of the Palestinian people in the Occupied
     Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and of the Arab
     population in the occupied Syrian Golan over their natural resources

     The General Assembly,

     Recalling its resolution 59/251 of 22 December 2004, and taking note of Economic and Social Council resolution 2005/51 of 27 July 2005,

     Recalling also its resolution 58/292 of 6 May 2004,

     Reaffirming the principle of the permanent sovereignty of peoples under foreign occupation over their natural resources,

     Guided by the principles of the Charter of the United Nations, affirming the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by force, and recalling relevant Security Council resolutions, including resolutions 242 (1967) of 22 November 1967, 465 (1980) of 1 March 1980 and 497 (1981) of 17 December 1981,

     Recalling its resolution 2625 (XXV) of 24 October 1970,

     Reaffirming the applicability of the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, of 12 August 1949, 1 to the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and other Arab territories occupied by Israel since 1967,

     Recalling, in this regard, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights2 and the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights,2 and affirming that these human rights instruments must be respected in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, as well as in the occupied Syrian Golan,

     Recalling also the advisory opinion rendered on 9 July 2004 by the International Court of Justice on the Legal Consequences of the Construction of a Wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territory,3 and recalling further its resolution ES-10/15 of 20 July 2004,

     Expressing its concern at the exploitation by Israel, the occupying Power, of the natural resources of the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and other Arab territories occupied by Israel since 1967,

     Expressing its concern also at the extensive destruction by Israel, the occupying Power, of agricultural land and orchards in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including the uprooting of a vast number of fruit-bearing trees,

     Aware of the detrimental impact of the Israeli settlements on Palestinian and other Arab natural resources, especially as a result of the confiscation of land and the forced diversion of water resources, and of the dire economic and social consequences in this regard,

     Aware also of the detrimental impact on Palestinian natural resources being caused by the unlawful construction of the wall by Israel, the occupying Power, in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including in and around East Jerusalem, and of its grave effect on the natural resources and economic and social conditions of the Palestinian people,

     Reaffirming the need for the immediate resumption of negotiations within the Middle East peace process, on the basis of Security Council resolutions 242 (1967), 338 (1973) of 22 October 1973, 425 (1978) of 19 March 1978 and 1397 (2002) of 12 March 2002, the principle of land for peace and the Quartet performance-based road map to a permanent two-State solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict,4 as endorsed by the Security Council in its resolution 1515 (2003) of 19 November 2003, and for the achievement of a final settlement on all tracks,

     Acknowledging the importance of the Israeli withdrawal from within the Gaza Strip and parts of the northern West Bank and of the dismantlement of settlements therein as a step towards the implementation of the road map,

     Recalling the need to end all acts of violence, including acts of terror, provocation, incitement and destruction,

     Taking note with appreciation of the note by the Secretary-General transmitting the report prepared by the Economic and Social Commission for Western Asia on the economic and social repercussions of the Israeli occupation on the living conditions of the Palestinian people in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including Jerusalem, and of the Arab population in the occupied Syrian Golan,5

     1. Reaffirms the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people and the population of the occupied Syrian Golan over their natural resources, including land and water;

     2. Calls upon Israel, the occupying Power, not to exploit, damage, cause loss or depletion of, or endanger the natural resources in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and in the occupied Syrian Golan;

     3. Recognizes the right of the Palestinian people to claim restitution as a result of any exploitation, damage, loss or depletion, or endangerment of their natural resources resulting from illegal measures taken by Israel, the occupying Power, in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and expresses the hope that this issue will be dealt with in the framework of the final status negotiations between the Palestinian and Israeli sides;

     4. Stresses that the wall being constructed by Israel in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including in and around East Jerusalem, is contrary to international law and is seriously depriving the Palestinian people of their natural resources, and calls in this regard for full compliance with the legal obligations mentioned in the 9 July 2004 advisory opinion of the International Court of Justice3 and in resolution ES-10/15;

     5. Welcomes the Israeli withdrawal from within the Gaza Strip and parts of the northern West Bank and the dismantlement of the settlements therein as a step towards the implementation of the road map;

     6. Calls upon Israel, the occupying Power, in this regard, to comply strictly with its obligations under international law, including international humanitarian law, with respect to the alteration of the character and status of the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem;

     7. Also calls upon Israel, the occupying Power, to cease the dumping of all kinds of waste materials in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and in the occupied Syrian Golan, which gravely threaten their natural resources, namely the water and land resources, and pose an environmental hazard and health threat to the civilian populations;

     8. Requests the Secretary-General to report to it at its sixty-first session on the implementation of the present resolution, and decides to include in the provisional agenda of its sixty-first session the item entitled “Permanent sovereignty of the Palestinian people in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and of the Arab population in the occupied Syrian Golan over their natural resources”.

     68th plenary meeting
     22 December 2005

     end of quotes
     ……………………………………………………………………………………………..

     you can all simply go to this website :
     http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/3822b5e39951876a85256b6e0058a478/b75e29e3e0d44a1c8525711e0054d184!OpenDocument
     for the above quote, or simply :
     http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/vSubjectDocType!OpenView&Start=1&Count=150&Expand=4.19#4.19
     for any issue, including : invasions, water issues, the wall and many others

     good day

247. Steven Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 10:39 pm

     There you have it. Thanks Osaid.

     The UN does say it is occupation, though as I have shown above this is a flawed declaration. I will get a small example of UN decisions for you…

248. osaid Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 10:41 pm

     Andrew :

     I will give you ONE example ONLY of teh Israeli VIOLATION for international law
     Ok ??

     go and check the findings of the International high court about the wall .

     ….

     The construction of the wall being built by Israel… in the occupied Palestinian Territory, including in and around East Jerusalem… [is] contrary to international law. Israel is under obligation… to dismantle forthwith the structure… [and] make reparation for all damage caused…
     ~International Court of Justice Ruling, July 9, 2004.

     ….
     is that fine with you ?

249. osaid Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 10:49 pm

     lives of Israelis are more important !!!

     ………..
     Ehud Olmert, the Israeli Prime Minister, expressed “deep regret” for army operations that have killed 14 Palestinian civilians in Gaza in just nine days but said the lives of Israeli citizens threatened by Qassam attacks were “even more important”.
     …………..
     http://www.palestinemonitor.org/nueva_web/articles/features/israeli_lives_worth.htm

     !!!
     no comments

250. nomad Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 10:54 pm

     Steven it means we are fed up

     I don’t want to care whether poeple kill each other

     I am warned about people care for planet goods

     and I think that so long people would not care of animals situation (yes, we are aninimals too) it could not be possible of having human progress

251. Drima Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 10:59 pm

     Comment number 251 Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!!!

     Let’s keep it going until 300! Wohooooooooooooooo!

252. Steven Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 11:06 pm

     I made a big post but it is going through moderation at the moment.

253. Steven Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 11:19 pm

     Thanks nomad. Yeah, I respect Craig’s view too - it is very down to earth.

     “I don’t want to care whether poeple kill each other”

     It is easier to deal with if you do not care.

     “so long people would not care of animals situation (yes, we are aninimals too) it could not be possible of having human progress”

     Then is it not better to have high morals and care? It may be easier to ignore things, but as a young girl I have a great respect for said:

     “Laziness may appear attractive, but work gives satisfaction.”

     Life is one test after another, each getting more difficult. Life is not supposed to be easy.

254. The Raccoon Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 11:21 pm

     Osaid - don’t you think it is reasonable for a leader of a state to value the citizens of the said state higher than the lives of the citizens of an enemy state?

     It seems… kind of logical, doesn’t it?

     I mean, your mother’s life for you has more value than the life of a stranger who’s trying to kill you, no?

255. Steven Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 11:30 pm

     /sarc on.

     Surley not Racooon. If your mother is Jewish then the life of the stranger is of greater vaule.

     You have to take that into account.

     /sarc off.

256. Steven Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 11:35 pm

     I think it is a morals thing, people have high (if not, impossibly high) expectations of Jewish people. In contrast, if the Palestinians engaged in mass canablism there would be people out there apologising for it or even blaiming the Jewish state.

     Is that being too unreasonable?

257. nomad Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 11:36 pm

     do not speek of laszness, I don”t know what it is

     yeah , men kill each other

     the more place you do will be a benefit for nature

258. eee Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 11:42 pm

     > Osaid - don’t you think it is reasonable for a leader of a state
     > to value the citizens of the said state higher than the lives of
     > the citizens of an enemy state?

     As usual the defecating master race - that bunch of beggars,
     thieves and murderers - in tears about the incomprehensible
     intent of their victims - the “enemy” (priceless) - trying to get
     rid of him - the hebrew makroparasite.

     Why you need pal. blood and soil so badly?

     Instead of sucking the blood of pal. children - try Heinz Ketchup
     (goes fine with pasta - might be fine on your matzah’s too) and
     for the rest - oh master of urine, semen and poo-poo - sneak
     back into your russian, polish od moldavian hole, from where you
     once came from, to transform the native arab polulation in exactly
     that kind of untermensch that you were under Adolphs rule.

259. tsedek Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 11:47 pm

     Twosret Says:
     +++++June 30th, 2006 at 8:33 pm

     (don’t understand how cutting power on them by bombing a plant will help release the soldier) +++++

     Twosret, it is, as I’ve been explained, because the IDF can act more swiftly and effectively in the dark. Probably because of nightvision equipment orso while receiving cover of the dark themselves….

     Tse.

260. Steven Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 11:49 pm

     Seriously, Jewish people have even blamed for the Tsunami. We are treated like Gods and when we do not perform the impossible we are repremanded.

     I love to quote this fact, (and it is written quite well too). This will be the third time!

     *****

     Following another surprising Israeli victory in the 1967 war, Israel ended up controlling the Sinai, the Golan Heights, the Gaza Strip, and the West Bank. In November of that year, the UN Security Council passed UN Resolution 242 which called for

     “Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict.”

     This was simply outrageous because earlier that year - despite being victorious after yet another genocidal provocation - Israeli prime minister Levi Eshkol had immediately offered Israel’s Arab enemies to take back these territories on condition that they promise never to attack Israel again. The Arabs refused.

     You read correctly: that’s all the Israelis were asking, and nothing like this — not even remotely like it — has ever happened in the history of warfare. Never before has a victorious state, after defending itself against an attack, and winning territory, offered to give it back in exchange for a promise of peace. And that’s without mentioning that the attack was an attempted genocide.

     But the Arabs refused!

     Given this, how could the UN Security Council now demand that Israel return these territories? That was simply absurd, not to mention immoral. The US could have used its veto power in the Security Council to stop this resolution, but didn’t.

     *****

     So what the hell do we have to do?

     If anyone says anything about “occupation” they do not know history. Here is a quickie and the start of the refugee problem:

     *****

     The 1948 Arab-Israeli War is referred to as the “War of Independence” or as the “War of Liberation” by Israelis. For Palestinians, the war marked the beginning of the events referred to as “The Catastrophe”. After the United Nations partitioned the territory of the British Mandate of Palestine into two states, Jewish and Arab, the Arabs refused to accept it and the armies of Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon and Iraq, supported by others, attacked the newly established State of Israel. It was the first in a series of open wars in the Arab-Israeli conflict [each of which started due to Arab agression]. As a result, the region was divided between Israel, Egypt and Transjordan.

     You could also look at that quote about the definition of Palestine, but I do not want to fill up the entire page.

261. nice Jewish Boy Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 11:53 pm

     Can anyone share the eee filter so I don’t have to manually skip over his posts?

262. eee Says:
     June 30th, 2006 at 11:57 pm

     > I think it is a morals thing, people have high (if not,
     > impossibly high) expectations of Jewish people.

     No longer. Jewish people in Israel - hebrews - can com-
     pete with Heydrich, Eichmann or Adolph easily.

     If this kind of ubermenschen - with arab friends (!!!) - would
     manage to starve the pal., such that they would be forced
     to eat their dead - be assured - the stinking ubermenschen
     from Irael would use this as a proof for the untermensch’ness
     of the arabs.
     Factually that’s e x a c t l y what they do, and the amnesians
     and europeans - lied at by their media under zionist control - will
     swallow it eagerly.

     Hebrews - no shame, no scruples - always in djihad mode
     to eradicate the native arab population - hard to imagine
     something worse.

263. Karen Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 12:00 am

     The Jews are finally home, eee. Why would they want to go back to Europe, their GRAVEYARD? The Israelites, or the Hebrews (semitic language, like Arabic) were from the Middle East and after 2000 or so years returned. I think you need to deal with those small, but significant facts. History supports it and so does archaeology. Jesus was a Jew. What was he doing in the Middle East. I guess according to you, his story actually took place in Europe?! Mo mo even provided me with a link with passages from the Koran that support what I am saying; which pobably means more to you than what Jewish religious texts have to say. You are a Jew-hater after all.

264. Steven Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 12:05 am

     eee filter?

     I am fine with just skipping his posts, plus I find some of them quite entertaining…

     “As usual the defecating master race - that bunch of beggars,
     thieves and murderers - in tears about the incomprehensible
     intent of their victims - the “enemy” (priceless) - trying to get
     rid of him - the hebrew makroparasite.”

     LoL

     It is even better stuff than going to the official nazi website over at nukeisrael.com (yes, you got that web address right). If you watch the Zog’s Nightmare (their new racist video game) preview, you will find it mild compared to some of eee’s stuff.

     It used to distress me, but now I suppose I am numb to eee’s immense hatred. He is a Nazi NJB, and clearly worse than the official Nazi website!

265. Steven Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 12:10 am

     Sorry to break it to you eee, I have also come accross people who are even worse… recently I came accross a guy who calls himself “Mighty Thor” who would certainly give you a run for your money!

266. eee Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 12:18 am

     > because the IDF can act more swiftly and effectively in the dark.

     Yes. Kill, kill and kill - that’s makes them true hebrews.

     If twosret omitted that - the master race - leaving their
     ghettos, escaping from pogroms - came to Palestine, to
     push the arabs in ghettos via pogroms (terror) - deliberately
     attacking civilians, destroying what they need to survive.

     Deliberately cutting off hundred thousands of people from
     water - the intention of the hebrew imitators of Heydrich -
     is obviously a war crime - covered by the west, because
     the west is now collectively commiting warcrimes too.
     As Netanjahu said - 911 - a good day for Israel.

     They wanted to be pogromists - Jabotinsky - and they are
     pogromists now in 2006 - a pogromist state.

     The only option so solve the problem is to erase zionism
     from time and space - scroll it in the kitchen sink - defecate
     on the body of zionism - pee on “jewish democracy” - mark
     it as insane as antisemitism.

     Israel is now entering the next stage. Eichmann started as a
     faciliator to deport the jews - that’s the past in zionazistan -
     now we come to the next - genocide committed by the eternal
     victim.

267. eee Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 12:29 am

     How did “Mighty Thor” differ from you?

     Didn’t you recognize yourself, when you exchanged “jews” by
     “palestinians” in his babble?

     Is there any difference between you Steve or Abu poo-poo and
     a “mighty thor”, except for style and some attributes?

     You’re lying all the time Steve - far the best were your arab
     friends. So - why talk to me?
     Simply because it’s your job to talk all the time, create the
     impression that you care for anybody else - except for yourself?

268. eee Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 12:35 am

     > You are a Jew-hater after all.

     Facists jews in Israel == zionists. And - not to forget the
     filth of the west - amnesia and their european minions,
     which assist them in torturing, ethnic cleansing and else.

     Hate them all.

269. tommy Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 12:57 am

     nomad,

     I’d honestly like to respond to what you are saying, but I am having a hard time understanding your last few posts. Sorry. Please try and restate what you are asking and I’ll be happy to provide an answer.

270. tommy Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 1:00 am

     Factually that’s e x a c t l y what they do, and the amnesians
     and europeans - lied at by their media under zionist control - will
     swallow it eagerly.

     S o m e b o d y n e e d s t o i n t r o d u c e L u x Lu t h o r e e e t o i t a l i c t a g s.

271. Babs Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 1:15 am

     It is a funny thing, but without eee goading me on I think I have said all I need to say… The Palesinians care less about their children than their Western brethren and, the day will come when Israel will crush the Palestinian cause (because it has no roots in history and can’t rally its people to the cause). It might seem like this is not true at the moment but, it will be proved true very shortly…

272. MT Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 1:48 am

     Using the Scientific Method, the “Bell Curve” proves that a race of higher intellect will always outperform the lower. However, the lower may from time to time gain an upper hand by brute force, only to be conquered and diminished due to their lack of organized leadership and concern for their citizens. Translation – Hamas is doomed.

     And, don’t go F’ing typing “MT - …” just F’ing shut up – I’m right.

273. The Atheist Jew Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 1:52 am

     The Palestinians struggle is about absurdity. Nothing more, nothing less:

     There is no such thing as Palestinian land, Muslim land, Arab land, Jewish land, Atheist land, Caucasian land, Christian land, etc.

     Land is either owned and/or governed. That is it. That is how land works. Land is just dirt, plain and simple.

     Yes, the Palestinian region has existed throughout recorded history. Yes, there is a such thing as Arabs who are/were indigenous to the region, as well as Christians and Jews, etc.

     But demographics change everywhere. Immigration is not a form of stealing. You can only steal land if it is OWNED.

     The percentages of Muslims in the West has climbed in recent years. Nobody is accusing Muslims of stealing Western lands though because they are not.

     The region of Palestine was last governed by the British before Israel was created.
     Arabs and their mindless supporters tend to forget that it was the Brits who came up with the White Paper which limited Jewish immigration into the British controlled land of Palestine.

     The Arabs, with the exception of the very few who owned land in Israel, have absolutely no claim to Israel. In fact, they have no claim to the West Bank, but it is open to negotiations. Just as Israel was when the Jews were successfully lobbying for it.

     Over 90% of the Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza were born in the West Bank and Gaza, and have no property in Israel proper. Their grandfathers may have lived there, but so what? I used to live in Toronto, I don’t anymore. In fact, in Toronto, the Kensington district used to have a Jewish majority until the late 50’s. But the Jews moved to Northern Toronto. Nobody is making a claim that Kensington is Jewish land.

     My house and property is not Jewish land. It wouldn’t matter if everyone on my street were Jews. Land can be sold. And it can as easily be sold to anyone of any ethnicity.

274. Mohamed Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 1:59 am

     karen aka Kiki,

     “The Jews are finally home, eee”

     Which home are you talking about? the land that they stole by force from the Palestinians? What a crazy thought! Red Indians should do that to the Americans then and call it home.

     “I think you need to deal with those small, but significant facts.”

     Which facts? that Jesus was a Jew, yes darling he was but didn’t hang around the Jews too long. He is Christian, he preached Christianity not Judism, he was hated by the Jewish leaders, who lied and got him cruicfied through the Romans. Those are the small but significant facts you are forgetting.

275. The Atheist Jew Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 2:08 am

     Mohamed, Jesus didn’t even exist. The Exodus didn’t happen either. And there was no Noah’s Ark. They are all stories. Deal with realities and the world will be better off.

276. MT Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 2:38 am

     But, there was a “Noah’s Arches”. It was a walk-true deli with two big elephant tusks out front – they were known for their “two on a stick” menu. You could get two donkeys, two elephants, two lesbians. Just about anything you could think of, they could cook on a stick. Also, their fried muslim fingers were to die for! Unfortunately, the local health inspector shut them down after he discovered they were using pig oil!!

277. bjbarron Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 2:43 am

     Interesting comments….roses among thorns.

     Yeah, I’ve been watching this since the 50’s, and seriously since the 70’s. I’ve never seen the Palis choose the right side or the right path. They can be absolutely dependable when it comes to screwing things up. How many countries have they been thrown out of now…Libya, Lebanon, Jordan, etc. Every place they go they try to destroy.

     It makes no sense really…they are totally self-destructive.

     And don’t tell me what victims they are…my daughter-in-law is Kuwaiti and doesn’t think much of them for supporting Saddam during GWI when her father had to hide her from rape gangs. They have this built in ability for choosing the wrong side every time.

     If they lived next to Russia they’d be extinct by now…probably the same if they lived next to India or the US. Israel is incredibly patient with these nutcases.

     Here in the West, even the moonbat liberals are giving up on the Palis….Me, I’m a right wing death beast and have thought they were self-destructive for 30 years. Liberals are starting to agree with me.

278. Karen Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 3:05 am

     Mo Mo, aka Mohamed

     With regard to stolen land, dear one, read the post above yours.

     With regards to Jesus, darling, he only hung around Jews. Christianitly developed after his death. And if he should return during my life time, I’m sure he will be joining me in synagogue and not you at the mosque—sweetie!

279. mike Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 3:14 am

     eee “Hate them all.”

     Not nearly as much as I hate you. I do enjoy your constant struggle with facts, reality, your hilarious attempt to argue that Israel is the same as nazi germany and the whole arab/muslim going to fuck up and blame someone else thing. Seriously, it’s like watching someone shoot themselves in the foot and then try to claim that it was actually done by a jew or an amnesian. Fucking hilarious.

     Maybe you and the millions of other eee’s should stop and think about what you are trying to accomplish. You are picking a fight you cannot possibly win and doing so in a manner which is going to bring the maximum amount of violence onto your own heads. The west doesn’t bother with this chicken shit tribal nonsense, it snaps and wins in the most ruthless decisive manner it can.

     The amnesian thing is almost clever, but I think you have mistaken Americans not caring about which shitty 3rd world tibal backwater you live/were spawned in for amnesia.

     p.s.: this is just a theory, but are your parents cousins?

280. Mohamed Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 3:16 am

     LOL he will hang around Jews again to stone him and crucify him again.

     Don’t think so What a loser you are Karen.

281. Mohamed Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 3:18 am

     bjbarron,

     “Yeah, I’ve been watching this since the 50’s, and seriously since the 70’s”

     Same here man, we have been watching your aggression since the 50’s and your hate to Palestinians and arabs and your constant fight to invade more lands.

282. Mideast Youth - Thinking ahead » Provoking Discussion Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 3:19 am

     [...] Provoking Discussion Blog controversy [...]

283. Karen Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 3:22 am

     We don’t stone….you do.

     We don’t crucify….Romans did.

     “loser”….. Back at you, Mo Mo !!!!!

284. Sheila Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 3:23 am

     “My own view is that it’s both a war crime and terrorism.”

     So Craig following your logic Israelis are an ongoing case war crime and terrorism.

285. Sheila Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 3:38 am

     “I and the Father are one.” 31The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” 33The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God,” (John 10:30-33)”

     “# John 8:58-59, “Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” 59Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; ”

     Which part of the above this Karen doesn’t understand?

286. Sheila Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 3:45 am

     “”So, Pilate called together the chief priests and the elders before all the people, and said to them: You have brought this men before me and accused him of subversion. In your presence I have examined him and found no bases for your charges. And neither Herod, for he sent him back to me. It is quite clear that this man has dome nothing that deserves a death sentence” (Lk.23:13-16)”

     Pilate is clean

287. Sheila Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 3:47 am

     Now let the anti-semite festivities start

288. Karen Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 3:47 am

     Oooh, not nice. It’s a good thing we stopped doing that a couple thousand years ago; assuming what you have posted is true. And that’s debatable given your previous postings.

289. mike Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 4:06 am

     Please stop arguing about your imaginary friends.

290. Karen Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 4:13 am

     Fine with me. Is that o.k. with you Sheeela?

291. Sheila Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 4:19 am

     Free the soldier or the PM of Palestine dies. Australian news!

     http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,19645805-2703,00.html

     Stopped doing that a couple thousand years?

292. Mark Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 4:47 am

     “The International Committee of the Red Cross in Geneva called on Israel to reopen a border passage into Gaza to enable the delivery of supplies and medicines and the United Nations’ World Food Programme (WFP) said many Palestinian civilians were now living on “just one meal a day”.”

     Shame on Israel for not allowing Red Cross. What a sad day in history for the doomed Palestinians by an enemy that breaks all the international laws and the whole world is watching.

293. Drima Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 5:19 am

     8 more until 300 yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!!!

294. mike Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 6:04 am

     7 more. And shame on Mark.

295. nice Jewish boy Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 6:04 am

     I think the Hamas bit off more than it can chew. Kinda sucks when you dig in for shark sushi and the damn thing is alive and chomping.

296. nomad Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 9:16 am

     I guess I was under pressure too , sorry !

     here is a nice link

297. tsedek Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 9:34 am

     So? What’s the conclusion? After almost 300 posts? Anybody changed his opinion because of something that was written here?

     Kill Meshaal. That’s what I say, if Gilad Shalit won’t get home safely. Each time regular people die, kill a leader.

     I hope though Israel will not incurse Gaza. It was said that security reckons 200 Palestinians may die in such incursion.

     I hope they won’t let that happen and go after the leaders. Every- everyone of them. And leave the Palestinians alone.

     Tse.

298. Steven Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 9:59 am

     “You’re lying all the time Steve - far the best were your arab
     friends. So - why talk to me?
     Simply because it’s your job to talk all the time, create the
     impression that you care for anybody else - except for yourself?”

     It is a pleasure that it is you saying that. By the way I have many many Arab friends and I have more Muslim than Jewish friends… integration, you know. The person I wish to share a blog with in the future happens to have commented on SM’s blog… on this thread even.

     If he doesn’t want to though, I will have to find someone else.

299. Steven Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 10:00 am

     I wonder what you are linke in person eee?

     Hmmm.

300. Steven Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 10:03 am

     Heya Mohamed:

     “Which facts? that Jesus was a Jew, yes darling he was but didn’t hang around the Jews too long. He is Christian, he preached Christianity not Judism, he was hated by the Jewish leaders, who lied and got him cruicfied through the Romans. Those are the small but significant facts you are forgetting.”

     Actually, no. He was a Jew.

301. Steven Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 10:06 am

     Hey, this is a good resource for you guys. Especially you eee:

     Volume 1
     Contents

302. Steven Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 10:07 am

     300 has been passed!

     Chow.

303. Steven Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 10:10 am

     What Jesus preached was not called Christianity until after he died.

     Anyway…
     Jews during Roman times:
     http://www.hirhome.com/israel/cruxcontents.htm

304. Ishibarat Ramha-Kamo Sok Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 10:36 am

     It is an important question though that will impact how this part of the world shapes up and how our children will survive (or not) together peacefully. It is the fundamental question that Israelis and Palestinians always fail to address, let alone answer. It is the thing that has been vexing this part of the world, to the extent that some think it is a curse. It is the number one issue of concern, and yet the thing attributed the least importance, both by the political leaders, and also by the lay people alike.

     I just fail to see why the global powers have not brought to bear their power and influenece on both sides of the argument to force them to answer this question, and maybe, just maybe for once the ray of peace will shine through. I am baffled and confused why we all think about it, but we never speak it out loud. Its not a matter of religious or national allegiance, it is simply a question of human conscience, tha mangitude of which is often overlooked.

     Few scholars or academics, let alone journalists ever venture into discussing it, lest they would become ostracized by their communities, although I am certain that each and every one of them are pondering that question, and even considering the possible answers. Well there can only be one of two answer.

     Can anyone here in this community tell me why this question is such a big taboo on the part of both Israelis and Arabs? I am genuinely curious.

     Ishibarat Ramha-Kamo Sok

305. eee Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 12:38 pm

     > if Gilad Shalit won’t get home safely.

     Eehm, blind and deaf?

     Shalit must die - as a martyr for the jewish blood-and-soil cult -
     thus creating the pretext for another Katyn - now committed by
     the hebraic master race.

     For - the best blood-matzahs are not made from the blood of
     pal. children - the best ones - surprise, surprise - are made
     from the blood of the hyperbigot master race itself.

306. The Raccoon Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 1:37 pm

     Ah, yes. Lovely hate all around.

     It seems to me that there are three types of posters here:

     The sane (people who actually know what’s going on, support the existence of Israel and a peaceful solution to the problem)

     The insane (eee et al) who just sort of froth at the mouth, writhe, speak in tongues, spew forth nonsense and lies and want to kill everyone

     The uncertain - people who do not know enough and are not psychotic enough to directly plummet into camp #2.

     What a fascinating division. It is even more amusing how crystal clear it is. Although some people, like Mohamed, move freely between camp #2 and camp #3.

     A case study in social interaction at its most basic level

307. nomad Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 2:22 pm

     do you want a referendom ?

308. Hyscience Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 2:33 pm

     Gaza - A Proper Perspective

     The media should and talking heads should be so astute.

309. Steven Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 2:59 pm

     Ishibarat: “It is an important question though”…

     What is?

     Nomad: “do you want a referendom?”

     On what?

     Eee: “Shalit must die - as a martyr for the jewish blood-and-soil cult -
     thus creating the pretext for another Katyn - now committed by the hebraic master race.”

     You need a more constructive outlet for all that hatred. Go to a Psychologist.

310. Steven Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 3:03 pm

     It’s England Vs. Portugal!

     This one is going to be good. :p

311. Ishibarat Ramha-Kamo Sok Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 3:22 pm

     I’m not sure Sand Moneky would like me to bring it up here. It’s after all his blog Only if he approves, I will speak…

312. nomad Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 3:23 pm

     and tonight, France vs Brazil

     no referendum requested, it was a joke !

313. nomad Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 3:40 pm

     just wondering if the video works that way :rolleyes:

314. nomad Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 3:42 pm

     sorry, apparently not !

315. tsedek Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 3:49 pm

     #305 - eeeeeeeee

     I think you’re so funny LOL - ever thought about writing a book? A SF book?

     Love,
     Tse.

316. tsedek Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 3:58 pm

     #309 - Steven :

     NOOOOOOOOO!!

     Don’t let eee leave… pleeeeezzzzz A comment section without fantasy is like a well without water….

     Tse.

317. Steven Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 4:49 pm

     LoL Tse.

318. Steven Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 4:55 pm

     Me: Dude, this is bad
     Me: The Jews aren’t like us
     Me: They actually care for the lives of their own.
     B: We care for the lives of our own
     Me: They will turn the world upside down to get that soldier back.
     B: But no one else does!
     Me: Then Habibty, release the kid
     Me: The prisoners document gives pretext to the whole recognizing Israel thing
     Me: Without actually recognizing it
     Me: It’s the way out of the boycott
     Me: Why bring it all down by kidnapping a kid now?
     Me: What purpose will it serve
     B: I don’t know

     *****

     Palestinians are now suffering due to the actions of their own - if they rejected terrorism, the Israeli army would not be in Gaza as we speak. If they did not fire hundereds of rockets at Sderot from Gaza, the Israeli army would not be in Gaza as we speak…

     This is only the beginning.

319. annonn Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 5:46 pm

     There is a little more to the mentoring of Arafat by Grand Mufti Al Husseini. Grand Mufti Al Husseini was Arafat’s Grandfather. Rather illuminating about what this fight is really about, isn’t it? We thought fascism was conquered in WWII but the truth is that the terrorism movement created by Arafat is the continuation of this. People like eee sure project alot don’t they?

     All these years we’ve heard Hamas swear they would “drive the jews into the sea”. Guess somedays the chickens finally come home to roost? I do feel sorry for the babies in Gaza. They are the innocent ones who haven’t been taught to hate yet. God help them.

320. annonn Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 6:01 pm

     Just to go on with the connection of Grand Mufti Al Husseini and Arafat:
     http://christianactionforisrael.org/medigest/may00/arabnazi.html
     There is some arguement over the relationship, some sourses say “uncle” some “cousin” and others “Grandfather”. One thing is for sure, they were related. By not cleaning out the middle east in WWII we are forced to do it now. Pick your sides wisely because it is coming.

321. Solomonia Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 6:24 pm

     Gaza from Egypt

     Interesting post by the Ranting Sandmonkey on Gaza….

322. Steven Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 6:37 pm

     Heya annonn.

     That is a curious fact. Great post(s) - you may like this link:
     - http://www.hirhome.com/israel/pal_mov.htm

     As for the babies:
     - http://stream.realimpact.net/rihurl.ram?file=realimpact/memri/memri_10-30-02_01.rm

     As for the children:
     - http://pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_girl_7.asx

323. Steven Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 6:39 pm

     Heya annonn. (Reposted to avoid moderation - well that is the idea!)

     That is a curious fact. Great post(s) - you may like this link:
     - http://www.hirhome.com/israel/pal_mov.htm

324. Steven Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 6:43 pm

     Heya annon, I have a post for you but it is awaiting moderation…

     You can find a duplicate here! (scroll down)

325. Craig Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 6:45 pm

     tsedek,

     So? What’s the conclusion? After almost 300 posts? Anybody changed his opinion because of something that was written here?

     yeah. Me. Americanization of the middle-east is the answer. We’ll take all that’s good from Arab culture and leave the rest. Which means:

     Bellydancing, American style!

     You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile.

326. Steven Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 6:46 pm

     England are out of the world cup. Again.

327. nomad Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 7:35 pm

     England are out of the world cup. Again

     that leaves the rout for french team

328. Twosret Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 7:59 pm

     Belly dancing American style? Yikes these women are dancing like snakes, No way Jose!

329. nomad Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 8:10 pm

     I thought Craig ment the belly dancing touristic post card once he will go and visit the pyramids :rolleyes:

330. Craig Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 8:11 pm

     I like it! I like the Egyptian style too:

     Naima Akif

     But we aren’t Egyptian over here, so we gotta dance like snakes and stuff instead

     Besides, it seems Egyptian women can’t dance like that anymore, anyway! Dina wishes she was that good

331. Craig Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 8:19 pm

     nomad,

     no, I don’t need to go to Egypt to see bellydancers! It’s becoming quite big here! Even at the shopping malls, apparrently!

     Ashland Square Belly Dancers

     I give them an “A” for effort, anyway

332. eee Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 8:25 pm

     > Grand Mufti Al Husseini was Arafat’s Grandfather.

     Once more a stinking lie out of the zionist cloaca.

     No a lie is, that the hebrew master race stinks since its
     inception. Listen to the founding father of jewish fascism:

     “We shall try to spirit the penniless (Palestinian) population
     across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit
     countries, while denying it any employment in Palestine …
     Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the
     poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly,”

     Hebrew fascists grow up in an entangled web of lies.
     For them terror and lies are as necessary as water is for
     a fish.

     Since appeasement is useless as a “dialogue with people
     who believe in their own (!) lies, there is only one solution,
     boycott them.

333. nomad Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 8:25 pm

     so it is ratherArabization then

334. Craig Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 8:40 pm

     nomad, we adopt the best aspects of other cultures and call them our own. It’s the American way

     I think it’s a good sign, first step towards assimilating the Arab world into the American empire! Just like we’ve done so many times before with other peoples. We don’t do that multi-culturalism crap. It’s all American. In 50 years we’ll be claiming we invented belly dancing

335. Steven Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 8:45 pm

     “we adopt the best aspects of other cultures and call them our own”

     LoL - One of England’s national foods is Vindaloo. We even have a song about it. Vindaloo is curry though; it is Indian.

336. nomad Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 8:49 pm

     France, yesssss !

     Craig, I was kidding, but I am sure : In 50 years we’ll be claiming we invented belly dancing
     

     like you did with your californian wines from the frenchs !

337. tsedek Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 9:09 pm

     #328 - Craig

     Thank you so very much - that’s beautiful and so very sentimental for me (I’ve grown up on those Egyptian movies here in Israel, every Friday-evening at 18:00 o’clock they’d show one for years - I think I’ve seen every old-fashioned Egyptian movie that exists :))

     Whadda’ya think about Lebanese bellydancing?

     http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8116088648923460399&pl=true

     Tse.

     how do you make a link?

338. Ishibarat Ramha-Kamo Sok Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 9:43 pm

     Sand Monkey, shall I talk about it, or do you prefer not?

339. forsoothsayer Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 9:43 pm

     why are you people always confusing islam with the palestinian issue? or the iraqi issue for that matter? you think these people fight because they’re muslims? they fight because they have been invaded. islam is simply an easy way to convince new generations of teenagers that they should fight, because injustice isn’t as strong a motivator as God, as any military leader knows. cut the religious prejudice bullshit.

340. Craig Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 9:53 pm

     Tsedek, thanks for that link! She’s pretty! And good, too The Lebanese dancers seem so “up-tempo” compared to the other dancers. Is that a Lebanese style?

     The Link Tag

     There’s an example in there how to make a link to an extrenal webpage. It’s the one that uses “CNN News” as an example. I can’t show you in the comment section because blogger would treat it like an actual html ta if I tried

341. Craig Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 9:55 pm

     Forsoothsayer, I always enjoy seeing somebody who uses phrases like “you people” talking about prejudice

342. Steven Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 10:35 pm

     “islam is simply an easy way to convince new generations of teenagers that they should fight, because injustice isn’t as strong a motivator as God, as any military leader knows. cut the religious prejudice bullshit.”

     So you are saying here that people are using Islam as a political tool? That when Immams preach in their Mosques to kill Jews it is a motivator but the actual conflict is nothing to do with religion?

343. Amgad Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 10:39 pm

     So the group of blood thirsty battled hardened soldiers of David are still claiming that shelling, cutting water, medicine, electricity and fuels supply from 1.3 million humans are manifestations of the sublime humane nature of the Jewish state that should otherwise annihilate all those who occupied the land of Israel during the 2000 years of Diaspora.

     I was just watching the CNN and the American news channel stopped just short of calling Israeli actions war crimes however they rightfully called them collective punishments and violations of Geneva convention. Israel , the state of law, sentenced a 1.3 million people to deprivation of all support for human life because a handful militants captured a soldier in the occupation army.

344. Craig Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 10:54 pm

     violations of Geneva convention

     Isn’t terrotism a violation of the Geneva conventions? Isn’t taking hostages a violation of the geneva conventions? Isn’t murdering prisoners a aviolation of the Geneva Conventions? Please leave the Geneva Conventions out of it. A convention that is not observed by both sides in a conflict isn’t worth the paper it’s written on.

345. Twosret Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 11:26 pm

     Ashland belly dancers should remain in Ashland and never join any other land. That is what I call the Camel dance.

     Dina the belly dancer makes those two Jihadi belly dancers with pants on look like Jasmine

346. Twosret Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 11:33 pm

     Steven,

     You finally got it congratulations man

     Forsoothayer,

     80% of the crowd here are zionist, Israeli supporters. It is all mixed up and they will get all topics mixed up as soon as it serves the purpose which is the whole world should fight their fight.

347. Twosret Says:
     July 1st, 2006 at 11:36 pm

     Of course Amgad it is violation of the Geneva convention. The soldier story is the excuse Amgad for them to take us back 10 steps backwards. They have been playing this game for 50 years man.

     The same shit but different day.

348. nomad Says:
     July 2nd, 2006 at 12:02 am

     Isn’t terrotism a violation of the Geneva conventions? Isn’t taking hostages a violation of the geneva conventions? Isn’t murdering prisoners a aviolation of the Geneva Conventions? Please leave the Geneva Conventions out of it. A convention that is not observed by both sides in a conflict isn’t worth the paper it’s written on.

     what the congress statuedfor guatanamo detainees

349. nomad Says:
     July 2nd, 2006 at 12:05 am

     sorry : suprem court

350. Steven Says:
     July 2nd, 2006 at 12:08 am

     “So you are saying here that people are using Islam as a political tool? That when Immams preach in their Mosques to kill Jews it is a motivator but the actual conflict is nothing to do with religion?

     You finally got it congratulations man”

     LoL Twosret

     That one I have known for a very long time. - I just want to see what other people say.

351. Steven Says:
     July 2nd, 2006 at 12:14 am

     “Isn’t terrotism a violation of the Geneva conventions? Isn’t taking hostages a violation of the geneva conventions? Isn’t murdering prisoners a aviolation of the Geneva Conventions? Please leave the Geneva Conventions out of it. A convention that is not observed by both sides in a conflict isn’t worth the paper it’s written on.”

     “Of course Amgad it is violation of the Geneva convention. The soldier story is the excuse Amgad for them to take us back 10 steps backwards. They have been playing this game for 50 years man. The same shit but different day.”
     *****

     An execuce? Can you explain that, please?

352. nice Jewish boy Says:
     July 2nd, 2006 at 12:30 am

     This is getting utterly boring. SM - new post please!

353. The Raccoon Says:
     July 2nd, 2006 at 12:44 am

     Twosret and Steven - see “Waqf” + “Israel” for whether this war has religious roots or not.

354. Craig Says:
     July 2nd, 2006 at 1:09 am

     Ashland belly dancers should remain in Ashland and never join any other land. That is what I call the Camel dance.

     *sigh*

     OK, one more attempt to distract everyone with bellydancers!

     Meera Demo

     This Indian hottie is right here in Los Angeles! And she does parties and bar mitsvas! (Did I spell that right?) and she’s SOOOO much better looking than Dina, and a better dancer too!

     Here she is in Egypt, descrating the pyramids with her Indian-ness :P:

     Dance of the Solstice

     Plus, free bonus… she’s an expert at traditional Indian dancing too. How can you beat that deal? You cannot!

355. Uchuck the Tuchuck Says:
     July 2nd, 2006 at 1:23 am

     “Ashland belly dancers should remain in Ashland and never join any other land. That is what I call the Camel dance.”

     Twosret, we have several cities called Ashland scattered across the U.S. I wish I could have told from the background which one it was, just to make sure that I never go there.

356. Steven Says:
     July 2nd, 2006 at 2:20 am

     I got this:
     http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=92684

357. Steven Says:
     July 2nd, 2006 at 2:24 am

     Is this the kind of result you meant?
     http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=9571

358. Twosret Says:
     July 2nd, 2006 at 2:34 am

     Uchuck we agree again NO Belly dancer should wear pants NO NO NO freaking way! this is an insult to belly dancing

359. Mideastbeast Says:
     July 2nd, 2006 at 2:42 am

     Non-Israelis and Non-Palestinians should not waste so much time talking about this conflict. It has a minimal impact on the rest of the world. All these people are attention whores anyway. Why don’t we talk about the 4 million dead in the Congo? Why waste time talking about 4000 dead in the “Holy” Land?

360. Steven Says:
     July 2nd, 2006 at 2:42 am

     And here is a third link from Israel + Waqf:
     http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=34776

361. Twosret Says:
     July 2nd, 2006 at 2:48 am

     Meera Demo

     Much better moves but too fast for belly dancing , the music is Indian the swords are not authentic, the Jewelery between the eyebrows is not authentic.

     Dance of the Solstice

     Due to bad connection I only saw the horse butt dancing nothing more and based on his moves I can tell he needs to go to the bathroom and he is not dancing

362. The Raccoon Says:
     July 2nd, 2006 at 2:59 am

     MEB - we’re the world’s current gladiators *shrug*

     Oh, and other Middle Eastern countries love it since by far too many Muslims see this as some sort of a holy war against the evil, evil Jews. So it’s also serving the purpose of uniting and distracting the unwashed masses.

363. Twosret Says:
     July 2nd, 2006 at 3:06 am

     Dina has never been a good example of belly dancers, In my opinion the queen of belly dancing is Samia Gamal, no one Yet can beat her dancing.

     http://tribes.tribe.net/egyptianfilm/photos/2d698ab2-4f77-4d3c-998f-30be9e28614f

     Tahia Carioca comes next

     http://www.belly-dance.org/tahia-carioca.html

364. annonn Says:
     July 2nd, 2006 at 3:07 am

     LOL Craig! Yep, very Archic Bunker-ish of him to use “you people” as a beginning of his statement.

365. Twosret Says:
     July 2nd, 2006 at 3:09 am

     ok annonn don’t worry, you people should focus on the main topic belly dancing:)

366. Twosret Says:
     July 2nd, 2006 at 3:10 am

     Raccoony,

     which belly dancer do you like the most?

367. osaid Says:
     July 2nd, 2006 at 4:02 am

     Raccoon :
     1.
     read this short article.
     http://www.jkcook.net/Articles2/0248.htm#Top
     2.
     Olmerts words were not RACIST , at the BEST estimations they are as stupid as Haniyye’s , or even worse !!
     I tol;d you before : Hamas has lerned alot from your governments, Raccoon. Hamas learned that using military force is the only method that works. This has since long been the way the Israeli government dealing with civilian palestinians : using military power.
     3.
     Most palestinians do not want to destroy Israel, as you and steve keep repeating. Israel is using wtever possible to do wtever it wants to do and this is what makes things keep boiling all the time.
     4.
     ending the occupation is the best method to end this pointless conflict. I, as a palestinian who lived ALL HIS LIFE in palestine do not have, or had, at anytime in my life, the intention to kill or harm an Israeli person. So do most of my fellow palestinians. I do belive that you have the same thoughts , but raccoon look at you governments acts ..they are disgusting.
     5.
     using all this violence, military forces, smart ammunition and missiles, mass media war, distortion of history and facts, lies and faking is unethical. ( i wouldnt use : internationally illegal, coz looks like many people here do not believ in international law )
     thanks…
     Jonas :
     Thanks for sharing your ideas.
     let me make myself more clear now :
     1. current palestinian support to hamas is only related to the pressure and hopelessness of the people of the west bank and gaza due to the israeli actions that HAS BEEN GOING ON since LONG.
     2. I am BLAMING israel for such a situation.
     3. We are losing control over our struggle against occupation because of people who support the israeli point of view in life : using military force to change the facts.
     4. many civilians are being killed daily without anyone noting their exixtance.
     5. I do believe that palestinians have to raise their voices against such corruption and stupidities inside the Pal Govt.
     6. Pal govt is not incharge of anything now. Few groups of militants are taking control and this will NEGATIVELY affect the future of the WHOLE palestinian people.
     7. President Abbas should disarm all the fatah and hamas wings and force order.
     8. we need extensive contact with the palestinians to expalin to them wts going on and wt should be done instead of having 10-20 armed and nonarmed wings.
     9. We wont get rid of occupation if we keep doing this way. There are tens of mistakes that are being committed by palestinian politiciuans and officials and at the same time being well exploited by Israel

     Anyway..
     Time, I believe, is at OUR side.
     We are working and praying to change this situation.
     good day

368. Craig Says:
     July 2nd, 2006 at 4:05 am

     Twosret, that’s exactly what Highlander told me too, except she rated Tahia #1 and Samia #2. I couldn’t find a full video of either one of them on You Tube though

     They do have this little 48 second clip of Samia Gamal though:

     Samia Gamal

369. tommy Says:
     July 2nd, 2006 at 4:22 am

     I think you’re so funny LOL - ever thought about writing a book? A SF book?

     Actually, eee is the star of a famous SF story, Isaac Asimov’s “I, Robot.”

370. tommy Says:
     July 2nd, 2006 at 4:24 am

     I tol;d you before : Hamas has lerned alot from your governments, Raccoon. Hamas learned that using military force is the only method that works.

     How about learning not to engage in terrorism and suicide bombings?

     Surprise! They seem to only learn what they would do without having to learn anything anyways.

371. osaid Says:
     July 2nd, 2006 at 4:32 am

     Tommy :
     ha..
     …
     Where are u from ?

372. osaid Says:
     July 2nd, 2006 at 5:00 am

     Brehm :
     /….Would Christians get a special status in Bethlehem?

     Would minorities get similar minority rights as in Israel (i.e. preferred choice for civil servants, no mandatory military duty for some groups, own religious court systems etc.)?
     …/

     What minority rights you are talking about !!!! heehehehehhehe
     Go and check how Israel is treating the 20% arab minority inside Israel …

373. Steven Says:
     July 2nd, 2006 at 5:20 am

     You said a lot there Osiad but I just want to duplicate this:

     “7. President Abbas should disarm all the fatah and hamas wings and force order.”

     Yes. Yes. Yes!

     However…

     Maybe not Abbas, you guys need someone else. Is there anyone else Osaid? I would vote for you above Abbas.

374. nomad Says:
     July 2nd, 2006 at 6:44 am

     Twosret an Craig, thanks for the initiation in belliy dances,
     seems to me more of paganism way of expression
     (I only knew the restaurants belly dances performs !)

     Osaid seems a sensitive one, hope our israelian fellows will agree in that point

375. Augean Stables » Hamas Leaders Shamed: Did anyone notice? Says:
     July 2nd, 2006 at 8:18 am

     [...] Sandmonkey posted a comment from Al Arabiya: Can anyone tell me how the palestenians accept to live like this ? what kind of a government that has no dignity, controled by Israel, no army, no police, no life, no future, and they still say it is a country and a government, SHU HAL MASKHARA, CLOSE THIS STUPID GOVERNMENT AND CARRY ON THE WEAPONS AND FIGHT, FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT, FINISH THIS THEATER, LOT OF MONEY, LOT OF DEAD PEOPLE, BIG TRAGEDY, HOW MANY YEARS YOU WILL STILL BE LIKE THIS, LOOK WHAT HAPPENED IN LEBANON, THEY DEFEATED ISRAEL, BUT AT THE END MOST OF THE PALESTINEANS AR E KHAWANA, , KHAWANA, WE ARE SICK OF YOU AND YOUR NEWS, WHAT ARE YOU WAITING, ALWAYS CRYING FOR MORE HELP FROM OTHER ARAB COUNTRIES, LIKE A BABIES, YOU ARE PLAYING WITH THE FUTURE OF A WHOLE GENERATION, ITS BETTER FOR YOU TO DIE THAN LIVING LIKE THIS, WAKE UP WAKE UP. [...]

376. eee Says:
     July 2nd, 2006 at 9:59 am

     > How about learning not to engage in terrorism and suicide bombings?

     What a smart advice from pathological liars, terrorists and killers.

     Why didn’t the boy-soldier parents stay in France?
     Why going to Palestine in - guess 197x - becoming “citizens” of
     the only unveiled racist state on earth, that pretends to be a de-
     mocracy?

     Don’t want to be a fascist? Easy, leave Palestine and transfer
     your “right to return” to a palestinian, which was actually born
     there.
     My advice: simply go home to Moldavia, France, Detroit or else.

377. eee Says:
     July 2nd, 2006 at 10:02 am

     > ALWAYS CRYING FOR MORE HELP FROM OTHER XXX
     > COUNTRIES, LIKE A BABIES

     XXX is Israel, that nation of beggars, thieves and murderers.

378. The Raccoon Says:
     July 2nd, 2006 at 11:57 am

     Osaid -

     Let’s drop the blame contest for a second. I absolutely agree with you about the solution - and so does practically every Israeli.

     As I have told you before: present to the world a non-violent majority who are REALLY not into the whole destroying Israel and killing Jews fad. I swear to you, if such a movement will come to being, and if it will actually have any power and popular support, Israelis will RUN to support you. Seriously. If you can start one, please do - you’ll get the Nobel Peace Prize and be worshipped for eternity like Mahatma Gandhi.

     About the poor, oppressed Israeli Arabs - they are treated EXACTLY like anyone else in Israel, be it Jews, Circassians, Gypsises, Druze, Bedouin or whomever. It’s called equal rights, and Israelis are big on it to the point of insanity (like having Arab MKs who openly support Hamas, Hezbolla and such).
     I mean, do you know any Israeli Arabs? *blink*

379. Thoughts By Seawitch » In Defense of Says:
     July 2nd, 2006 at 2:06 pm

     [...] As I read the following exchange atSandmonkey’s, the contrast struck me on how each individual life is valued in places around the world. [...]

380. Steven Says:
     July 2nd, 2006 at 3:41 pm

     eee, seriously - what has made you into what you are? Have you had bad personal experiences or is your atitude all a result of the media war?

     Steven

381. Steven Says:
     July 2nd, 2006 at 3:44 pm

     “As I have told you before: present to the world a non-violent majority who are REALLY not into the whole destroying Israel and killing Jews fad. I swear to you, if such a movement will come to being, and if it will actually have any power and popular support, Israelis will RUN to support you. Seriously. If you can start one, please do - you’ll get the Nobel Peace Prize and be worshipped for eternity like Mahatma Gandhi.”

     Exactly - if you can do what you said from your side Osaid - you would get infinite support from Israelis.

382. eee Says:
     July 2nd, 2006 at 11:09 pm

     > About the poor, oppressed Israeli Arabs - they are treated
     > EXACTLY like anyone else in Israel, be it Jews, Circassians,
     > Gypsises, Druze, Bedouin or whomever.

     The usual lies from the zionist cloaca.

     So tell us oh defecating master race, what “exactly like anyone else”
     means in your fake democracy, which gives its citizenship to any
     jew for free - after ridiculous 2000 years - , while it rejects the right
     of hundred thousands of pal. arabs to return into their homes, from
     which they were expelled by your pogromist compatriots.

     Your lies stink.

383. Twosret Says:
     July 3rd, 2006 at 2:42 am

     “About the poor, oppressed Israeli Arabs - they are treated EXACTLY like anyone else in Israel, be it Jews, Circassians, Gypsises, Druze, Bedouin or whomever. It’s called equal rights, and Israelis are big on it to the point of insanity (like having Arab MKs who openly support Hamas, Hezbolla and such).
     I mean, do you know any Israeli Arabs? *blink*”

     I know I know some of them that will defeat this agrument

384. Chimera Says:
     July 3rd, 2006 at 3:03 am

     Hi all,
     I’m not going to reply to anyone’s comments - there’s way too many for that. What I’d like to say is this…

     First, when I was very young (we’re talking single digits here) I thought that the Israelis were the ‘goodies’ and the Palestinians were the ‘badies’. This was based on modern army vs rag tag terrorists. Then in my teens I swapped, thinking that Israel was oppressing the Palestinians and if they backed off then Palestine would make something good out of itself. However, we now have the Hamas government which is well linked to many terrorist groups, refuses to recognise Israel and is openly hostile to the West (including my country, the UK). What am I to think, Israel may not be anywhere near perfect but it’s not as stupid and childish as Hamas and the Palestinians. On numerous occasions they withdraw and try to stop the violence but 9 times out of 10 a Palestinian group bombs something or kidnaps someone and the fighting resumes. For me, Hamas = BAD NEWS at the moment.

     I’m also in the Territorial Army so I know a bit about warfare (although I’ve never been in any conflict) and what the Israelis are doing is spot on - no civilian casualties is great news. Hamas and the terrorists went and kidnapped and killed an Israeli civilian - WTF!!!! Does anyone see the dilema here?

     I’d like to support the Palestinians but their leadership and tactics in general spell nothing but defeat…

385. osaid Says:
     July 3rd, 2006 at 5:53 am

     Raccoon and Steven…

     Arabs inside Israel are being treated EXACTLY the same way as citizens ???
     looooool
     you must be kidding man !!!
     your false democracy is making you so blind that you cannot see things the way they are .

     Beduins are also being equalized ?? you have kicked them from the desert !!!
     anyway, this is not our topic !

386. The Raccoon Says:
     July 3rd, 2006 at 2:31 pm

     Twosret - really? Examples?

     Osaid - the recent problems with Bedouins near Be’er Sheva are the result of stupidy: a misguided attempt to improve the lives of the Bedouins. It’s really a very stupid situations - the Bedouins want schools and hospitals and infrastructure, which nobody can give them while they live the way they do now (in tiny villages and tents, spread over a large trackless territory).

     For some obscure and stupid reason, the Israeli government decided it was a good idea to try and pressure them into living together so that these things (infrastructure etc) can be given to them. The Bedouins don’t like that, but don’t want to live without the benefits of modernity either. A bit of a tricky situation there, won’t you say?

     The solution is traditionally moronic, of course… but the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

387. The Raccoon Says:
     July 3rd, 2006 at 4:00 pm

     Oh, Osaid… you’re right, of course. It’s the free, ultra-liberal Israeli media that lie. Not the state-owned, terrorist-oppressed PA media. They only tell the objective truth - the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Yup.

388. tommy Says:
     July 3rd, 2006 at 6:20 pm

     osaid,

     I’m from the Pacific Northwest (in the United States).

389. eee Says:
     July 3rd, 2006 at 9:14 pm

     > On numerous occasions they withdraw and try to stop the
     > violence but 9 times out of 10 a Palestinian group bombs
     > something or kidnaps someone and the fighting resumes.

     Yes, that’s the impression created by our media, which are either
     in the hand of zionists or fear to be smeared by them, if they
     simply reported the facts - including, that it was Israel - not the Pal.
     - which allways killed some more Pal. to keep the bloodshed going.

     (The most interesting case was the initial attempt of Sharon the
     butcher, to kill the roadmap by assassinating Rantisi. Even the
     moron in the White House appreared puzzeled, when he found
     Sharons knife in his back.)

     The reason for them to do so is extremely simple.
     They know - it’s obvious - that the Pal. cannot defeat them - a na-
     tion without any scruples but with nuclear arms and hundreds of
     tanks, jets, helicopters etc. - in the domain of war and state terror.

     For that reason the Isr. - not the Pal. - forced and force the Pales-
     tinians - by humiliating them in any imaginable way -mak’em
     drink their pee, crush their bones, steal their cars, orchards, land
     - finally by killing them in their schools or houses - forced them to
     “play” in a that particular domain.

     As a positive side effect, this also allows them to depict the palesti-
     nians as barbarians - because they also managed to occupy our
     media, which - except in extraordinary cases - never ever mention
     the barbarianism of the master race.

     Finally it were not the palestinians which voted for HAMAS but the
     master race. The master race - and the amnesians and europeans
     - pumped millions into the Fatah, thus transforming it into one of the
     most corrupt “states” on earth, paying them to keep their eyes clo-
     sed, while the filthy master race doubled the number of squatters
     and tightened their grip on the pal. society.

     When the pal. were then allowed by the amnesians to vote for a new
     government - they refused to vote for the Abbas, Dahlan and the other
     collaborators, voted for the HAMAS instead who refuse to sell them-
     selves to the master race and the amnesians, the reason why the
     master race decided to take them out - to kidnap them.

     (Of course the pal. now have the “right” to bomb Tel Aviv, until the mas-
     ter race releases them.)

     If the master race wanted peace - they could have made a fair deal
     with Arafat. But they refused to do so - because they always stole and
     steal everything they wanted or want.
     There’s simply not n e e d for a race of beggars, thieves and murde-
     rers to “negotiate” with those they can rob and kill with impunity.

390. eee Says:
     July 4th, 2006 at 12:16 am

     > About the poor, oppressed Israeli Arabs - they are treated EXACTLY
     > like anyone else in Israel, be it Jews, Circassians, Gypsises, Druze,
     > Bedouin or whomever.

     The EXACT liar:

     Bedouin ask UN to help fight systemic discrimination in Israel

     Because - this kind of fascism is a “jewish democracy”.

     Imagine - they attempted to transform the US into a “jewish
     democracy” too. Would be really funny to watch.

391. The Raccoon Says:
     July 4th, 2006 at 2:03 am

     *urinates into eee’s mouth as it opens for the next rant*

     You may leave now.

392. Steven Says:
     July 4th, 2006 at 6:35 am

     Who said:
     “THERE IS NO PRODUCE IN GAZA. They have no products to ship out! Their borders are closed on all sides, there is absolutely no land to farm, and because of decades-long war and conflict, no sustainable economy whatsoever.”

     Mideastbeast… if you had any credibility - it’s gone down the pan.

     Gaza used to be like that in the early 1800’s… the Jewish people made Gaza furtile and Gaza produce has been sold in massive quantities in Europe.

393. eee Says:
     July 4th, 2006 at 7:14 pm

     > Gaza used to be like that in the early 1800’s… the Jewish people
     > made Gaza furtile and Gaza produce has been sold in massive
     > quantities in Europe.

     Amesians are not bad in propaganda - but cannot beat the brazen-
     ness of the hebraic master race liars.

394. Aliyah! Step-by-Step: Making a Life in Israel » 115165499658708022 Says:
     September 15th, 2006 at 9:25 am

     [...] The Sandmonkey has made a very interesting post about the current balagan (mess) and the comments are also very worth a read. Read it here. [...]

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