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Wednesday, 12 Jul 2006
*Scroll down for Updates*
Senior officers say that the Lebanese government is
responsible for the soldiers' abduction. According to the officers, if
the kidnapped soldiers are not returned alive and well, the Lebanese
civilian infrastructures will be taken back in time 20 and maybe 50
years.
Becomes Reality:
Lebanese security sources said Israeli aircraft retaliated by bombing three bridges in southern Lebanon.
Two Lebanese civilians were killed and a Lebanese soldier was wounded in the air raid, Lebanese security sources said.
The Lebanese casualties occurred in the raid on the coastal Qasmiyeh bridge.
Meanwhile, Israel's army radio reported that ground forces had enterned Lebanon to search for the missing soldiers.
Hezbollah
earlier fired dozens of Katyusha rockets and mortar bombs at Israeli
border posts and a town, wounding four civilians, according to Israeli
and Lebanese security sources.
And , if it makes any sense, the southern lebanese are celebrating, at least according to this arabic al jazeerah article.
This will turn ugly very quickly!
Update: The situation, if the israeli blogs tell us anything, is really going to get ugly. The sentiment is very angry. Here is Dutchblog for example:
Israel can and should respond massively, attack all possible targets
linked to Hizbullah and to every Lebanese and Syrian element that
supports that organization. Civilian targets should be avoided, of
course, but if Lebanese ( or Syrian ) civilians get hurt that should
not stop Israel from achieving its objectives. This is a classic
example of a war of choice, chosen by Hizbullah, by its Iranian and
Syrian puppet masters and by its Lebanese landlords. Each of those will
have to be held accountable. Israel's government and the IDF have to
make sure that all our neigbors will know again that provoking Israel
just isn't worth it. I am sorry for the innocent Palestinians and
Lebanese who will pay for this with their lives and with their misery.
Also, I am sure that the UN and many other international bodies will
condemn Israel's actions, but if they are unable to do their job in
Southern Lebanon properly and unwilling to acknowledge that Israel has
the right and even more the duty to defend its citizens - civilians and
soldiers - then, well, $#$@%">$#$@% them.
Or Ariga:
Hamas and Hizbollah will now coordinate their postures regarding
releasing the soldiers in exchange for prisoners being held by Israel,
which has so far publicly refused to consider any such exchange for the
return of Corporal Gilad Shalit. The Hizbollah action will be met by an
angry Israeli response, possibly included attacks on Lebanese
infrastructure as punishment of the Lebanese government for not reining
in the Hizbollah, and perhaps even an attack on Syrian targets of some
kind, as Syria is regarded as Hizbollah’s main patron outside of Iran.
Given the massing of troops on the northern border, it appears a ground
incursion is also not being ruled out.
Even the usually peacefull Yael is getting her war hat on:
F***. Hezbollah has attacked our northern border and kidnapped two of our soldiers.
I am not going to say anything more because right now I am having the
very non-rational and certainly non-peaceful response of "go in and
bomb the living F*** out of Lebanon. Bomb the living F*** out of Gaza.
No holds barred" as a pretty minor statement of my feelings at the
moment. So I'm not going to post right now. I am going to go away from
the keyboard. I am going to go and repeat the name Ghandi about a
thousand times. I am going to go shopping. I will hopefully return in a
more non-warlike frame of mind. I can't guarantee it.
From the look of things, I really doubt this will happen.
Update: Raja at Lebanese bloggers is keeping us updated at the situation in Lebanon. The Lebanese seem divided on this (surprise surprise), but everyone besides the Shia seems to not be ecstatic about what's going on. The Updates are surreal.
Update 4: Former President Amin el Gemeyel
was just interviewed on LBCI. His talking points included referring
back to the 1969 Cairo Agreement, preventing individual parties from
taking decisions that affect all Lebanese, returning the focus onto
fixing Lebanon's internal order, and avoiding a war that is bigger than
Lebanon and one that thousands of Lebanese have already died for. He
has called for an emergency Hiwar Watani session to deal with the
latest developments.Update 5: Butros
Harb says that this Hizballah attack was a complete surprize.
Especially considering the delicate political situation and the tourist
season. "decisions pertaining to war and peace can only be taken by all
Lebanese, not just one party…. I call for an emergy session of the
Hiwar el Watani…. Hizballah's operation breached Lebanon's
sovereignty…. Hizballah must now act responsibly and take into
consideration the interests of all Lebanese and Lebanon's
infrastructure…. Hizballah's operations must be overseen by a
legitimate body…."[...]
Update 13: Israeli jets continue to fly and
hit targets all over the South (esp. over Nabatieh and Marjouyoun).
Warships of the Israeli Navy have also been seen on Lebanese
territorial watersUpdate 14: Hizballah supporters in Beirut are celebrating by driving around, honking horns, and using firecrackers.
Update 15: Tele Liban, Lebanon's official state television channel, is currently running a live cooking show.
Gotta love Lebanon. :)
Update: Kais is not happy!
Iran's military arm in Lebanon, the so called "resistance" that
Assad entrusted with defending its interests and challenge the creation
of an independent Lebanon, has sent an invitation to the Israeli army to destroy the country's tourist season, and whatever is left of its sovereignty.Hezbollah
kidnapped two Israel Defense Forces soldiers on the northern border in
the midst of massive shelling attacks on Israel's north Wednesday
morning. The IDF confirmed two of its soldiers were missing on the
Lebanese border.Hizbullah's rubbish "defense strategy" is in full swing, with Israel now entering southern Lebanon, destroying infrastructure in the south, and threatening to "make Lebanon pay."
[..]
Naharnet is reporting that the Lebanese cabinet will convene to
discuss the matter. We will see whether anyone will have the courage to
challenge Hizbullah. Or at least, if this is how we plan on "defending"
the country's interests, send Hizbullah fighters to the Syrian border
to capture Syrian soldiers. My guess is that, with the exception of
Walid Jumblatt, no one will dare question what happened today.And Lebanon will indeed pay.
sigh…
Update: The Hezbollah farce. Right now Nasrallah is giving a speech. This is what he is saying basically (hanks Lisa): That the prisoners will be returned except via negotiations and prisoner exchange. He has connected the kidnapping to the IDF actions in gaza, and he says he wants a ceasefire, and is blaming the "escalation" on the northern border on israel.
"what happened today is the fault of israel. it is because the previous government refused to return certain prisoners"
to israel: "if you want to return lebanon to the situation it was in 20
years ago, don't forget that lebanon is not the same country. we are
much stronger now."
don't make a mistake. whoever takes the side of israel we will be
isolated. that is my message to israel"
Fantastic, no?
July 12th, 2006 at 12:48 pm
The problem is that people in Beirut don’t care in a very passionate way about 3 little bridges down in the South.
Ultimately, while many in Beirut dsilike the Hizballah, too many of them are tolerant of the Hizballah. Meanwhile, people like ‘Antoine’ (who commented in the last post) seem to be sort of proud of Hizballah and this sort of passive support promotes hostile military action by Hizballah; they thrive upon the support of people like ‘Antoine’.
Israel won’t just allow itself to be shelled, however much ‘Antoine’ thinks it should. It’s time for the Lebanese who dislike Hizballah to rise up and demonstrate en masse and make Hizballah feel far more limited than it already does!
July 12th, 2006 at 12:56 pm
OT:
FIFA’s Blatter: “We could take the Golden Ball away from Zidane if the investigation finds him guilty”.
Sorry, I am biased because I am an Italian and an Italy’s fan, but I am happy if he loses his not deserved Golden Ball (not deserved because of his violent reaction)
July 12th, 2006 at 1:02 pm
Meanwhile, people like ‘Antoine’ (who commented in the last post) seem to be sort of proud of Hizballah and this sort of passive support promotes hostile military action by Hizballah; they thrive upon the support of people like ‘Antoine’.
Look, man, I´m french, I´m not jewish, not muslim, not an arab. I don´t have to be proud of Hizballah. But I went to Lebanon a couple of times for vacations (BTW very nice country) and I can tell you that Hizballah enjoys a broad support from lebanese of all confessions and not only from the shias.
July 12th, 2006 at 1:29 pm
Time for Israel to break out the MLRS and the fuel bombs and start turning large swaths of Lebanon into glass untill the soldiers are returned. We’ve had ENOUGH.
July 12th, 2006 at 1:34 pm
This could set Lebanon’s tourism industry back 15 years, which sucks because it’s a great place to visit.
On one of my first weeks in Beirut, two Israel planes broke the sound barrier over the city in retaliation for something, and I almost had a fucking heart attack.
July 12th, 2006 at 1:35 pm
Or better yet, glass Syria and Iran too. We’re at war with them anyway, and it’s about damn time we started acting like it - seeing as they happily do so.
July 12th, 2006 at 1:57 pm
Or better yet, glass Syria and Iran too.
Do not forget Iraq. And Pakistan and Afghanistan (Ben Laden is there!!!)
July 12th, 2006 at 2:13 pm
I vote for bombing Syrian political thugs. In some respects I actually feel sorry for the Lebanese. These events are beyond their control, it is Syria that is directing this suicide. Syria is the lynchpin to this troubled region. They fund others to destabilize the region in order to maintain control of their own population.
And Antoine, riddle me this; if rockets rained down on your mother’s house at 9AM on a Wednesday and you got a call that she was in hospital, what would your reaction be???
July 12th, 2006 at 2:17 pm
Raccoon, I agree that this is really about Syria and Iran. In fact I suspect that Hamas started in with Israel because someone, perhaps Syria, but probably Iran, told them they had their back.
I don’t want to see Lebanon pay for Syria’s provocations, and according to Debka File this kidnap operation did not come as a complete surprise.
Ahmedinijad and his itchy finger can’t be far behind in all of this, which is scary as hell.
And Antoine? Stick a freaking sock in it, will you?
July 12th, 2006 at 2:37 pm
[...] I feel bad for Lebanon. I had great hopes for them. They really need to kick all those damn neo-hashashins outta their country and send them packing back to damascus and tehran. If they don’t Israel is going to rain hell on Lebanon. The Big Pharaoh is posting some Lebanese reactions to this story. Maybe there is some hope? On the other hand, Sandmonkey has some Israeli reactions … I’d like to go on the record as saying, that i hope this turns out to be not so fatal for those involved. But, I also have to say, hezbullah, hamas, the syrian regime, and the iranian regime do need to be eliminated. [...]
July 12th, 2006 at 2:38 pm
I sympathize with Kais.
They’ve taken the lion’s cubs again. They expect the lion and lioness to appease them?
Yeah, riiiight. Hold on to your hat, this is going to be an interesting ride.
July 12th, 2006 at 2:40 pm
Cool men ! Peace upon you.
What did I say you didn´t like ?
Funny you mention Syria : last week, israeli air force flew over Bachar palace in a show of force. Very impressive.
And my nice mom sleeps in HER house in France. So please warn me if the germans decide once again to attack us. (But lately the eastern front was quiet.)
July 12th, 2006 at 2:41 pm
Egad. This is spinning up more quickly than I thought.
July 12th, 2006 at 2:45 pm
Antoine -
Read the official charter of your beloved Hizballah to see their plans for France.
How would you like to be gang raped and then executed for adultery?
Sleep soundly, dear child, and dream of bearded men with guns.
July 12th, 2006 at 3:04 pm
Read the official charter of your beloved Hizballah to see their plans for France. How would you like to be gang raped and then executed for adultery?
Sleep soundly, dear child, and dream of bearded men with guns.
Fantaisy.
I went to Lebanon and met sometimes with guys from Hizballah : decent chaps. I toured with them the southern border as every turist does : it´s quiet. You even see the israeli soldiers on their side. Please spare us your cliché about bearded men with guns.
I´m not interested in politics : just soccer.
July 12th, 2006 at 3:08 pm
So, Israel withdraws from Lebanon and is still attacked. They withdraw from Gaza and and are still attacked. Peace with the Arabs/Muslims is not possible. Giving up the west bank would be horrible. Hold on to “their” land. Take more. It is needed as a buffer zone. Screw the U.N. of shitheads.
Enjoy France Antoine. Your Country will be reaping more from what it has sewn soon! So countinue to be *smug*.
How about an update on India? And what the religion of peace did there yesterday?
July 12th, 2006 at 3:09 pm
Read the official charter of your beloved Hizballah to see their plans for France.
Well, a few months ago, Sheikh Nasrallah of Hizballah attended a summit in Beirut with president Jacques Chirac. (”Sommet de la Francophonie”); and lately, as ANY lebanese politician, he was received at the french ambassy for a 5 o´clock tea. I mean : if the guy has “plans” for France, I guess he had all the time to describe them to his hosts.
July 12th, 2006 at 3:11 pm
Glad this is amusing you, Sandmonkey.
And Raccoon, you’ve “had enough”? Pretty low tolerance, I would say. How would you like it if every time the IDF goes off on a little excursion I start wishing that Iran developed a nuke soon and bombed Israel? (As the balance of power in this little game is pretty obvious, I cannot wish for my country to do that).
All I can say is thank you for your well-wishing. I will remember your poison spewing on different blogs next time I argue with someone that Israelis indeed want peace.
July 12th, 2006 at 3:13 pm
I play a WWII game called Hearts of Iron. Not terribly good, but I’ve learned that if you focus Germany’s development on Armor, and build a bunch of really good tanks, supported by artillery and air support, you can cruise right through nearly any country except the Balkans’ (too mountainous). I think this ends in Damascus, which is fairly close to the Golan. Something tells me that Israel has had some contacts with reformers in the Syrian military (however you define reformer) and is about ready to move and just grade the road. The Hamas kidnapping wasn’t enough — Syria gives refuge to that Hamas guy, but w/Hezbollah, it actively supports it and provides a base of operations from a foreign country, not an “occupied” territory. If Assadi (to me, “Assad” (meaning lion, right?) is his father, who was a pretty masterful guy, not an optometrist) is even calling the shots is in question. But yeah, there aren’t going to be too many Israelis left (even on the left) who think that they can make kumbaya from a position of weakness. March into Damascus, grab whom you want, let it devolve into civil war, and gain some breathing space. Then you may even see the Palis deported into Syria and the borders locked.
Alexander and Caesar, Napoleon too
To conquer the world they thought was their due
Each one of them died as a mortal in time
The real reason we live is the love we must find.
July 12th, 2006 at 3:17 pm
How about an update on India? And what the religion of peace did there yesterday?
No fucking idea : no claim.
In India, it could be anyone : sikhs militants, kashmir militants, etc…
India, contrary to some ideas, is not exactly a peaceful country : mosques are destroyed, hindu temples too,…
And for Israel, Palestine, Lebanon, you seem very passionate. Go and fight ! if you like war so much, it would be a shame to miss such oportunities. I´ll go skiing this afternoon…
July 12th, 2006 at 3:27 pm
Suha -
I am sorry about the Lebanon and MLRS comment. I was very upset at the moment and wrote in agitation, especially after reading of the jubilation in Lebanon due to the attack on Israel. Sorry.
My comments about Syria and Iran stand, though. These regimes need to go down.
Antoine - you may not care about politics. But politics care about you. Read the Hizballah and Hamas charters for some interesting information on your proposed future. Can you spell “Sharia”? Can you spell “Slavery”?
July 12th, 2006 at 3:29 pm
India…anyone? Yah right, Antoine!! You are very passionate. How about you going to fight alongside your friends…brave one.
July 12th, 2006 at 3:31 pm
…Alexander and Caesar, Napoleon too
To conquer the world they thought was their due
Each one of them died as a mortal in time
The real reason we live is the love we must find…
July 12th, 2006 at 3:36 pm
Antoine - wish I could go and fight… but I was too fucked up by the last war and the army no longer wants a Raccoon.
Shir hama’alot
Esa einay el he-harim
Mea’yn yavo ezri?
Ezri me-im Hashem,
Ose shamaim va-aretz
Al yiten le mot ragleicha
Al yanum shomreicha
Hine lo yanum ve-lo yishan shomer Israel
Hashem shomreicha, hashem tzilcha
al-yad yamineicha
Yomam hashemes lo yakeka
U yareakh ba-laila
Hashem yishmorcha me-kol ra
Yishmor et-nafshecha
Hashem yishmor tzetcha u-boecha
Meata ve-ad ‘olam…
July 12th, 2006 at 3:37 pm
First, I am very happy about those posts from lebanese bloggers. There seem to be enough sane people in lebanon to avoid a real war.
This is my view of the things, but many of the points are speculations. It seems that Israeli goverment is trying to force lebanese goverment to disarm hezbollah, and establish control over south lebanon. They were supposed to do that in 2000, but were afraid of syria. Now they have to choose, do they prefer troubles with syria or israel. And it seems that Israel is trying to provoke syria to commit an act of war, and bomb Assad out of power. Assad did rattle his sabre, and threaten a attack on Golan few days ago, and there was speculation of Iran sending troops to syria (unrealistic, they would have to pass trough sunni iraq or kurdistan).
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3272736,00.html
Hamas is supported by syria and iran, hezbollah are syrian and iranian proxies. In the end, Iran is pulling the strings, and syrian support for lebanese shiites is based mostly on personal intrest of syrian baath elites, who are alawi. Alawis are considered kufar by all muslims, except lebanese shiites. Sheikh Sadr from Amal apointed a lebanese alawi as a imam of tripoli in lebanon in the 80es, and thus gave them status of halal muslims. Alawis dreamed about such a reckognition for centuries. Assad came into power in a alawi coup, and syria is ruled by alawi mafia, similar to sadam’s tikriti baath mafia in iraq, until recently. It is a pity that most journalists don’t have a clue about power games and religious wars in middle east. With alawis out of power in syria, syria would lose intrest in shiites in lebanon, and relations between syria and Iran would get colder, and relations with west would warm up. Iran is intrested in hezbollah since hezbollah is just a lebanese branch of the Khomeini’s party, that is in power in Iran, called Hezbollahi (funny coincidence). Now, the iraqi connection is that shiite insurgency in iraq is also done by hezbollah. A suni, or even better, democratic goverment in syria would knock syria out of picture in lebanon and iraq. Disarming hezbollah in lebanon, and depriving hamas of syrian support, would be a huge strategic gain for the west and pro democracy forces in ME.
Just for an example, how Assad’s mafia does buissness, in ‘82 muslim brotherhood (sunni) attacked and killed some 20 alawis. Assad’s (senior) response was to flatten city of Hama and masacree its residents. They claimed that it was a muslim brotherhood’s stronghold. The sorrounded it with tanks, and turned a city into a parking lot with bulldozers, burying people under the buildings, and shooting anyone who attempted to escape.
Enough history. I hope that IDF is in contact with lebanese army, and both are tying to direct this shitty buissness into a situation that is much better for both lebanon and israel, lebanese army on israeli border, hezbollah disarmed, and syria knocked out of the picture. Lebanese AA opened fire on israeli planes, but did no damage. It is possible that they will put up a show of fireworks, a bit of bang bang for the press, for public opinion in arab world, and quietly work with israel in disarming hezbollah. It is in best intrest of both countries, and ME in general. I sure hope that both sides have enough wisdom to control their anger and cooperate. It would not be the first time.
I have to go back to history again, lebanese shiites actually looked at IDF in ‘82 as liberators. Many joined SLA. Only after a serious blunder by IDF did they turn against it. IDF column tryed to drive trough a shiite village in the middle of ashura, while shiites are cutting their heads and wipping themselfs, shiites started screeming at them and waving their knives, it was a scene out of a horror movie, IDF soldiers panicked and opened fire. Blunder was that IDF command didn’t educate the troops about shiite customs. It is really stupid that such a mistake happened, but it did. I can understand the shiites, I would be very pissed off if a foreign army opened fire on a crowd of worshipers on Yom Kippur. But I understand the soldiers too, I would flip if I found myself in the middle of a ashura procession, if I didn’t know about it, blood dripping everywhere, whips, knifes, swords, scene out of dante’s inferno. Who wouldn’t…
Middle east is a mess…
July 12th, 2006 at 3:42 pm
NI - excellent comment, as always.
July 12th, 2006 at 3:47 pm
Can’t Israel just turn off the water to Lebanon?
July 12th, 2006 at 3:49 pm
“I am sick of hearing about the captured/abducted/kidnapped Gilad Shallit, an honest-to-goodness POW, albeit with a name. Fascinating how Gilad Shallit is “kidnapped,” yet “Islamic extremists” are “rendered” or “transferred.” How many Palestinian women and children are in Israeli prisons with no faces no names described in the West? Truly you will not see them listed by the NYT, the Washington Post, CNN, or heavens forbid, Fox New. But lets recite some of these names and ages because they exist. These people are not nameless and faceless. This list is of civilians killed by the Israeli war machine since 2006. Each of them have two parent and grandparents, uncles and aunts. They had faces and souls. Here are some of their names:
Munadel Mohammad Saleh Abu ElaiÂa, 13
Aya Mohammad Suliman Al-Astal, 9
Mujahid al-Samadi, 15
Ibrahim Ahmed Mohammed al-Shiekh ‘Eissa, 17
Mohammed Ahmed Mohammed al-Natour, 17
Khalid Salaam Ziadin, 16
‘Aamer Hassan Hassan Basiouni, 15
Ahmed al-Swaifi, 14
Mahmoud Ahmed al-Batash, 17
Ra’ed Ahmed al-Batash, 11
Akaber ‘Abdul Rahman ‘Ezzat Zayed, 8
Hammad Hamdan Musleh, 16,
Mohammed Farid Hassan Zayed, 15
Bilal Eyad Mohammed Abu al-’Einein, 5
Sameh Nizar ÂAadel al-ShafÂei, 17
Hadeel Mohammed Rebee Ghaben, 8
Ameer Maher Mohammed Shawahna, 15
Mamdouh Mohammed ÂObaid, 17
Muhannad Mohammed Aamen, 4
ÂArafa Basheer Zindah, 17
Haitham Ali Issa Ghalya, 5 months
Hanadi Ali Issa Ghalya, 18 months
Sabrin Ali Issa Ghalya, 4
Ilham Ali Issa Ghalya, 15
Alia Ali Issa Ghalya, 17
Hisham Ashraf al-Mughrabi, 14
Maher Ashraf al-Mughrabi, 8
Samia Mahmoud Ziad al-Sharif, 5
Mohammed Jamal Shukri Rouqa, 6
Bilal Jasser al-Hissi, 16
No excuses or apologies need to be made for the taking of Shallit or others like him. When you are at war, who else are you allowed to attack but your opponent? Beyond Sallit and others like him, it is truly reprehensible for Israel to attack the entire population of Gaza in their racist and arrogant well-rehearsed crime of collective punishment. These are crimes against humanity that are acceptable only to the literalists of the Old Testament, where the ancient Israelites “smote” without regard. Entire populations were slaughtered in the name of the Almighty.”
Not only should Israel be globally censored fo
July 12th, 2006 at 4:04 pm
If we’re at war, Salah dear, then how would you like Israel to act like it’s a war and pull a Dresden on all of the PA?
Ah, fuck it. Moron.
July 12th, 2006 at 4:10 pm
Not Important,
Your history is completely flawed. Shia did NOT cheer the IDF invasion of Lebanon. I have an eye witness: an IDF soldier stationed in Nabatiyah (Shia village in South Lebanon). And that was early on before it got messy. Before they installed a Phalangist government in Beirut. Before Sabra and Shatila.
The ashura incident you are referring to took place in October 1983. The Israeli invasion began in June 1982. The Shia rose as a radicalized resistance group much before that (starting with the Khalde attack in June of 1982).
There are many more flaws under your smug tone, but I have to run.
One thing I agree with you on: the ME is indeed a mess.
July 12th, 2006 at 4:20 pm
And Antoine, riddle me this; if rockets rained down on your mother’s house at 9AM on a Wednesday and you got a call that she was in hospital, what would your reaction be???
And my nice mom sleeps in HER house in France.
Well Antoine, thank God your motheer sleeps in France because if she lived elsewhere like, oh I don’t know, maybe the North of Israel (or even the south)and, if on a Wednesday morning she was cleaning up the breakfast dishes and starting some laundry and Kassam missles rained down on her and put her in hospital YOU MIGHT ACTUALLY HAVE TO TAKE A STAND ON THE INDISCRIMINANT SHELLING OF CIVILIANS LIVING IN THEIR OWN SOVERIGN COUNTRY.
Oh, that’s right, you are French…
July 12th, 2006 at 4:36 pm
Hezbollah Captures Two Israeli Soldiers - Israeli Forces Cross Into Lebanon (Running Updates Below)
The Islamists have taken it upon themselves, by crossing into Israel and capturing two more Israeli soldiers, just committed the Palestinian people and the Muslims in Lebanon to what it certain to become all out war!
July 12th, 2006 at 4:58 pm
THIS SOVERIGN COUNTRY WITH A GOVERNMENT ELECTED BY THESE CIVILIANS, ACTUALLY IDF RESERVES, HAS 4 MILLION PEOPLE UNDER ITS CONTROL WITHOUT ANY RIGHTS WHAT SOEVER IN WB AND GAZA. WHEN ANY ONE OF THESE PEOPLE IS KILLED BY THE IDF HE/SHE IS CALLED, IN UTTER SUPERIORITY, COLLATERAL DAMAGE
July 12th, 2006 at 5:07 pm
In south lebanon? Yes. They hated the PLO thugs that ruled south lebanon. Of course there was hezbollah and amal then, but they didn’t get much support in south lebanon. Musa al Sadr was trying to get syrian support in his fight against Bashir Gemayel and Walid Jumblatt. South lebanese shiites never did forgive al Sadr for his support for PLO, that’s why when they turned against israel, they turned to Hezbollah and not Amal. That’s why Amal just withered away. Hezbollah didn’t become a player before ‘83. Can you list any major hezbollah operations before ‘83?
And yes, in ‘82 and ‘83 most south lebanese shiites were in SLA.
Where do you see smugness? I am just stating some facts, and thinking out loud about possible scenarios. Do you think that hezbollah and syria are playing a positive role in lebanon? Fully independent lebanon that controls all of its borders is in intrest of both israel and lebanon. And peace is in intrest of all of middle east, except for lunatics.
Just try to imagine what would a unified tourist riviera from istambul to alexandria, and up to luxor, do to all of us in ME. We have far more to offer than any other area in the world to a tourist. Few dozen cities with 5000, 6000, 7000 years of history, good food, open and wellcoming people, beautifull nature… And that’s just tourism. Levant should be a tourist hotspot, not spain or french riviera. And besides, east med is one of the best areas in the world for sailors. 20kt winds and warm weather 9 months a year. All of the ME is being held hostage by a small group of loonies. They should be marginalized so that sane people can finally start living.
Possible big benefit of declaration of war could be a real peace conference with a real peace accord, and not just cease fire, between lebanon and israel. It would be possible without lebanon loosing face, even if no real fighting takes place. It could be like egyptian peace deal, they claimed they won in yom kippur war, so they could afford to make peace 5 years later without looking weak. Lebanon, actually, never fought a war against israel, I guess, since ‘48. It is a part of ME politics, lebanon needs to show that they did their share of fighting before they can sign a peace accord. But, again, those are just my speculations… If such a game is going on, nobody is going to say it in public for decades. But, I must admit, it would be in best intrest of both countries.
July 12th, 2006 at 5:16 pm
Antoine,
you are the very epitome of Frenchness (says this German).
As to your India comment, I’m almost sure it was the Sikhs. There is a slight chance, though, that Jains might have had a hand in it.
July 12th, 2006 at 5:17 pm
This all makes me really angry, and I’m not anywhere near the ME. Or France, for that matter. I’m over here the USA - you know, Smugness Central. But I can’t believe what the Lebanese are allowing the Hizballah to do to them. (way off topic: what’s with the spelling? Just in this thread I see “Hizballah”, “Hizbullah”, “Hezbollah”… MSA has no “e” or “o”, so assuming those stand for short “i” and “u”, I’d guess “Hizbullah” would be the standard transcription into the Roman alphabet?)
If the Lebanese had stood up to H. and taken control of their own country back, they wouldn’t have Israel marching and flying across the border. (At least not today. Nothing to stop Israel from up and deciding to do it later without provocation, but provoking them seems . . . unwise.) But because of their unwillingness to rock the boat, they’re getting shelled.
Maybe Lebanon is just too weak to do anything but let itself be caught in the middle like this, but I don’t think so. It seems like the majority of the Lebanese are letting their destiny be controlled by a vocal minority of idiot bullies. (I’d say I can sympathize, but based on what I see in polls over here, the idiot bullies are the majority.) Why is H[ei]zb[oa]llah still pulling the strings? I’d think folks would be more afraid of Israel than of H… but maybe that’s not the case with those who are “safely”in Beirut rather than near the border.
July 12th, 2006 at 5:26 pm
It was PLO rocket attacks that drew the Israeli ibvasion in 1982. And look how well that all ended for Lebanon. Raccoon, I hope this time that you guys are able to kill just the people who deserve to die and stay out of an occupation. For everyone’s sake.
Pretty good synopsis of what happened last time, for those who don’t know:
US Multinational Force [USMNF] Lebanon
Antoine,
I went to Lebanon and met sometimes with guys from Hizballah : decent chaps.
BBC: On This Day 23 OCT
241 American peacekeepers KILLED. 56 French peacekeepers KILLED.
Decent chaps, those hezbollah murderers. I won’t even bother listing the hundreds of other terrorist attacks Hezbollah has launched on western targets worldwide. Hezbollah has a well documented history, despite their recent attempts to portray themselves as legitimate resistance.
Those “decent chaps” are terrorists. Hijackings, Kidnappings, suicide bombings, assassinations… there is no terrorist act Hezbollah has not committed.
They’ve murdered your own countrymen, Antoine. I’m stunned and amazed you think they are “decent chaps.”
July 12th, 2006 at 5:28 pm
#24 auf yiddish please, I may understand
my young french fellow has not experience in that swimming-pool, I am an old fox !
July 12th, 2006 at 5:36 pm
That BBC link doesn’t work, maybe this one will:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/october/23/newsid_2489000/2489117.stm
The final death toll for the attacks in Beirut was 241 US marines and 56 French troops. More than 100 were wounded.
In response to the attacks France launched an air strike in the Bekaa Valley against Iranian Revolutionary Guard positions.
July 12th, 2006 at 5:49 pm
Special Edition Drop Zone: Israel’s Two Front War
See my previous articles from this morning on Israel’s Two Front War, if you’re just now tuning in:
Breaking News: Lebanese Hezbollah Invaded Israel!
War All Around Israel
OK, the news is coming in fast and furious, so I’m going to co…
July 12th, 2006 at 5:53 pm
“In response to the attacks France launched an air strike in the Bekaa Valley against Iranian Revolutionary Guard positions.”
—————-
Must be the last time France has stood up for itself.
Anyway, as far as two front wars, see 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973
July 12th, 2006 at 6:00 pm
You know how we europeans got sick of war? We had a fucking big one 60 years ago. Maybe that is the way to go for the Middle East also?
July 12th, 2006 at 6:10 pm
I’m not entirely certain whether it will have any effect on Walid Jumblatt’s decision making, but BigPharaoh and Debka (via, it seems, al-Arabiya) that the 2 kidnapped soldiers are not Jewish, but Druze. Another news outlet (which I can’t find at the moment) reported an official visiting a Druze family, the parents of one of the kidnapped soldiers.
July 12th, 2006 at 6:14 pm
Dilbert, I don’t think that’s so. The Soveits paid the heaviest price in WWII and there’s not much evidence they lost their appetite for war as a result. There’s an old military axiom that goes back to Sun Tzu (I think) that says “your enemy must know he has been defeated.” I think that’s more likely what happened. All the combatants in Europe (except the Soviet Union) sufferred the consequences of crushing defeat, at some point in the war.
That has yet to happen in the ME. Defeats have been relativley painless, by historical standards. The losers have never come to understand that were vanquished. They continue the war(s) by other means in hopes that they may still win.
July 12th, 2006 at 6:14 pm
…In response to the attacks France launched an air strike in the Bekaa Valley against Iranian Revolutionary Guard positions…
yeah, you like it in that way
…Must be the last time France has stood up for itself…
chou chou, we had Dien bienPhu, Algeria … in between,
you still were somehere in the skies
France could not be your gensd’armes whenever you decide it
July 12th, 2006 at 6:20 pm
Nomad, that wasn’t my quote, it was from the BBC. The French retaliation was largely symbolic and had little real effect, as did the US retaliation. Hezbollah has still not paid the price for those attacks. Someday, they will.
Was your husband still in the French Army at that time, nomad? I’d only been in the Marines about a year before that attack. It was 3 days before my 20th birthday.
July 12th, 2006 at 6:27 pm
You know, after Israeli defense forces roll up Lebanon, they might as well storm into Syria. That would pull all the jihadi psychos out of Iraq and our guys could focus on calming down the sectarian violence.
I think it’s time Israel uncorked. A lot of people in the region seem to have forgotten what that’s like.
Plus, Israel can pick up Saddam’s WMD stash while they’re in Syria.
Win-win, really.
July 12th, 2006 at 6:31 pm
Antoine,
I went to Lebanon and met sometimes with guys from Hizballah : decent chaps.
BBC: On This Day 23 OCT
241 American peacekeepers KILLED. 56 French peacekeepers KILLED.
No kidding ? I should explain something : I went to Lebanon as a tourist and I left home my helmet, my M16 and I didn´t kill nor harm anyone.
July 12th, 2006 at 6:31 pm
he was in “Marine Nationale”, something like “aide de camp” and maître d’hôtel”
under pacific atom bomb experiments
but the amiral was an ancient of Viet nam and Algeria, in fact he created the green berets for thoses campaigns, a great soldier; my husband was not engaged ,he just did his army, 2 years and a half at this time, He choosed doing his army in France ; at that time immigrants in Canada were asked to go to Vietnam for americans, he did not feel it ! so he came back to France
July 12th, 2006 at 6:32 pm
As to your India comment, I’m almost sure it was the Sikhs.
Go and tell indian police: I bet on some militants from Kashmir.
July 12th, 2006 at 6:38 pm
In response to the attacks France launched an air strike in the Bekaa Valley against Iranian Revolutionary Guard positions.
….and we killed a guy taking care of his sheeps. And we bombed empty barracks. Few days later, we left Lebanon. And so the americans. It was the best thing to do. BTW those hezbollah guys were lebanese and we´re foreigners.
20 years later, Sheikh Nasrallah, leader of Hizbollah, can enjoy a five o´clock tea at our embassy: isn´t life wonderful ?
July 12th, 2006 at 6:52 pm
Can’t we all just be friends?
July 12th, 2006 at 6:53 pm
Happy up-and-coming Sharia law in France, Antoine.
July 12th, 2006 at 6:58 pm
No kidding ? I should explain something : I went to Lebanon as a tourist and I left home my helmet, my M16 and I didn´t kill nor harm anyone.
Neither did all the western journalists, professors, toursits, etc who were kidnapped and held hostage by Hezbollah in the 80s. Neither did the people who were aboard international flights that Hezbollah kidnapped. Neither did the hundreds of people living outside of Lebanon who Hezbollah has assassinated.
Besides which, killing peacekeepers is *still* murder. Same as killing a policeman. Especially in an unprovoked suicide bombing. It was just flat out MURDER, Antoine. And if you support Hezbollah, then you support terrorism. Sorry, dear. Hezbollah is not only a terrorist group, but an INTERNATIONAL terrorist group. The most notorious one to ever exist, with the exception (possibly) of Al Qaeda.
Never ask me again why I despise the French. The answer is you. You play kissy face with the people who murdered my friends.
20 years later, Sheikh Nasrallah, leader of Hizbollah, can enjoy a five o´clock tea at our embassy: isn´t life wonderful ?
That a mass murderer can go to the French Embassy without being arrested? You call that “wonderful” Antoine? My God. You really do desrve to become Eurabia. See how wonderful you think life is then! I wouldn’t mind very much of Israel decided to kill Nasrallah while he was in teh French Embassy, if that was the only time they could verify his whereabouts. A piece of advice - don’t invite murderers of Israelis (and Americans and French) to the French Embassy, during a war. Capiche?
Nomad, I wish more French people were like you. And fewer like Antoine. Unfortunately for all of us, that’s not the case.
July 12th, 2006 at 6:59 pm
Racoon don’t be so quick in paroles , may-be you’ll get the sharia before us : lol :
July 12th, 2006 at 7:09 pm
Antoine is young, he grewed in a well-fared France, when he’ll learn life, he’ll have his very ones thoughts
July 12th, 2006 at 7:13 pm
1) There is no risk of sharia in France. The only women wearing hijab in France are from islamic countries. I guess roughly only 15% of women from north Africa wear a hijab while living in France.
2) FYI Hizbollah is a main lebanese party (see their Parliament).
3) in 1983, France made a mistake : we should have mind our own business and stay out the lebanese mess.
4) According to the Washington Post, USA tried to assassinate the head of Hizballah in West Beirut with a car loaded with explosives : Fadlalah escaped with no bruise but more than 200 people were killed. If anyone has more info on this topic, thanks.
Peace upon you.
July 12th, 2006 at 7:19 pm
President Reagan and the CIA called off covert operations when Lebanese intelligence operatives — some allegedly trained by the U.S. — set off a car bomb on March 8, 1985, in an attempted murder of Sheik Mohammed Hussein Fadlallah, the Shiite Muslim cleric who some believed to be the spiritual leader of Hezbollah. Over 80 people were killed in the attack near a Beirut mosque. Fadlallah survived.
Was it “terrorism” ? “cleaning operation” ? Some words mean nothing in the Middle East…
July 12th, 2006 at 7:31 pm
Having through all this madness today (Censor: you cannot publish that! Me: Look, the fact that they killed 7 soldiers is all over the world by now. Reuters has it. BBC has it. Why can’t I use it? Censor: I don’t care what the Arabs know, I only care that the Israeli public won’t know till we inform the families of the soldiers), I can only shudder in horror.
The army sees red. They’ve been humiliated twice in two weeks, both times they had plenty of warning, which they stupidly ignored. They’ve called up one reserve division - one of my workmates was called up - and that, mates, means there’s every chance the IDF will do the whole 1982 Beirut tour all over again. Nasrallah’s simply too smug for them.
They’re fucking nuts. They’re blaming the Lebanese government, as if it had anything to do with it; as if it had the power to force Hizbullah to do anything, much less relinquish a prize; as if the United States and France were not trying, diplomatically, to disband Assad’s irregulars for a year. As if attacking the Lebanese won’t be just what Syria wanted.
Now, I may an Arab-loving leftist, card-carrying member of the Wall Poisoners and Natonal Backstabbers Society (chartered 1947), but I’m no pacifist. We should certainly launch a prolonged bombing campaign. I think young Bashar has at least 12 palaces which need drastic redecorating. Having seen his taste, I prefer a GBU-12’s.
Once they’re all dust, maybe he’ll see reason. If not, well, there are plenty of army camps who won’t know what hit them. You wanna fight? Pick the right target.
July 12th, 2006 at 7:34 pm
To the person who complained about all the children in Israeli jails: there is a new phenomenon going on in Israel. Palestinian children purposely get themselves arrested so that they will be thrown in jail. It’s become the “in” thing to do. These kids are bored and this is exciting- plus it assures them of a warm bed and 3 square meals a day. Widely reported in the press, didn’t you see it?
July 12th, 2006 at 7:52 pm
What will all this shit lead to?
A third front from out of Syria coming up? And a fourth one from the east (Iran)?
What will Jordan’s position be? And what about Egypt?
July 12th, 2006 at 7:54 pm
rock on Hizbollah!
July 12th, 2006 at 8:15 pm
[...] UPDATE: Rumor has it that Israel will declare war tonight. Meanwhile Al Jazeera reports residents in Southern Lebanon, you know, the part of Lebanon where Hezbollah resides within and will be the part hit by Israel, are celebrating. Go figure. Other Coverage: [...]
July 12th, 2006 at 8:20 pm
Antoine,
As to your post #57, item 3, sometimes I believe we made a mistake in 1941! I think De Galle would crap his pants if he saw the way the majority of French are today, (lacking balls!). I lost a friend on 9-11, and another in Afganistan. I say let Isreal clean some clocks. I just hope nobody goes and opens the niclear pandora’s box. There will never be peace in the middle east until one of the two sizes are totally beaten into submission. (just my little rant). I personally don’t like nor dislike either side. Each is capable of great beauty, but also, great horror. Too bad they just can’t draw a line and stick to their side.
J
July 12th, 2006 at 8:23 pm
“A third front from out of Syria coming up? And a fourth one from the east (Iran)?
What will Jordan’s position be? And what about Egypt? ”
—————
Well, vis-a-vis Iran, a speed bump? Iran’s not doing anything. Their bluff will be called just like the U.S.’s w/NK. They can’t send troops through Iraq or Turkey. They don’t have nukes yet and if they launch some regular old missles at Tel Aviv, they *will* get some, the hard way. Iran will sit on its hands. Achmadwhatshisname remembers that Carter was a pussy but that rumor about Reagan was that he was a warmongering cowboy. Syria is toast — you might even see ol’ Ghaddafi laughing it up.
July 12th, 2006 at 8:26 pm
@palestinianphilosopher, you should do more thinking and less watching PA telli.
July 12th, 2006 at 8:29 pm
@nice Jewish boy, you seem to have much trust in the IDF concerning succeeding. Or are you refering to possible help of other countries? Which ones would that be? The US is kind of busy in other countries; others are afraid to be seen as puppets of the zionist regime or however many like to put it.
i hate it btw that there is so much misunderstanding concerning zionism, but that’s off-topic for now.
July 12th, 2006 at 8:47 pm
post # 64 : 1941.
1941 was totally different : Adolf was mad and he was attacking every single european country (except the neutral ones : Spain, Swiss…)
In 1983, we wanted to be the good guys in Lebanon and it was impossible. Trying to separate the different factions : druzes, sunni, palestinians, shias, christians… It was a mess.
Look at the americans in Iraq today ! You would like to be there ?
July 12th, 2006 at 9:02 pm
Lot of people wish they hadn’t been in India a couple of days ago.
July 12th, 2006 at 9:10 pm
Antonie (post 68),
No, I would not, besides, I’m too old. But that’s an arguement for another posting. What I’m saying to just let Isreal clean house. Let them do it, they’re more than capable. As to WW2, he didn’t attack Spain (fellow fascist), but the American view on most Arab nations is they are part of a “Coalition of Thugs”. As a more educated person, I see a number of nations that have a violent minority who by singling out one common enemy are given the “blind eye” by their respective governements. I also lost three great uncles in ww2, two in France. I hope they died that freedom may ring for more than one generation. Sometimes I wonder.
That I’m basicly saying is to let them fight their own battles. There are some situations you just can’t un f**k up. The middle east is one of them.
I don’t want to see anyone killed, but if somewants to be a martyr, then “inish Allah” (pardon my “pig arabic”). The IDF can certainly help them.
July 12th, 2006 at 9:15 pm
Salah-El Din,
The killed list of children on one day in Ameica is larger then that, September 11, 2001!
I sympathize, but when one nation is surrounded by it’s enemies, collateral damage can and will occur. No one likes it, but it’s a fact, but it happens.
July 12th, 2006 at 9:20 pm
There were 60 dead in Gaza in 5 days ………oops! I forgot they don’t count when it comes to the rest of the world. Only the kidnapped (POW) Shilat counts.
July 12th, 2006 at 9:21 pm
Racoon, you’re a decent fellow: I don’t blame you for being slightly miffed today.
can you do your #24 in Yiddish ?
July 12th, 2006 at 9:34 pm
Antoine, kiss my ass. After 1983, any action the US takes to kill Hezbollah members is 100% justified in my book. I’d kill them myself if I had the chance. Same as I’d kill any member of Al Qaeda. There’s no difference. Nasrallah should get the same thing Zarqawi got. I’d fully support that, and I’m not ashamed to say so. Are you ashamed that you support mass murdering terrorists who have killed your own countrymen?
July 12th, 2006 at 9:35 pm
Twosret, were they active combattants? They don’t count. Were they throwing rocks? Who knows? I don’t. “Innocent Bystanders” is such a wide ranging term.
also, Raccon Rocks!
July 12th, 2006 at 9:36 pm
My spelling sucks! Racoon Rocks! We need spellcheck in here me thinks!
July 12th, 2006 at 9:37 pm
Yossi Gurvitz, I agree with you re: targetting Syria. Hezbollah is nothing without Syrian and Iranian support. Enough war-by-proxy. Go after the real enemies.
July 12th, 2006 at 9:40 pm
Craig is right. Hit the ringleader and bring doiwn the gang with as little collatteral damage as possible.