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Monday, 17 Jul 2006
Yesterday I went to a "Support Lebanon and Plestine" demonstration in front of the medical doctor's syndicate, which was organized by the Al Karama (Dignity) Pan Arabist Nasserite movement, Kefaya and youth for change- basically all leftist organizations-, along with other individuals from palestinian, lebanese and syrian origion. I went there expecting a Peace demonstration, what I got was a totally different deal.
The people at the demonstration were Chanting seriously anti-Israeli chants, even using ones used by Hamas and Hezbollah. The mood was one of anger. This wasn't a pro-palestinian or Lebanese demonstration as much as it was an anti-Israel demonstration. And no one was particularly calling for peace.
The signs people carried had slogans that said "long live the resistance in Palestine and Lebanon. They had pictures of Nasrallah and Nasser up. I am always preplexed when I see Nasser pictures up in such gatherings. Must be because he won so many wars against the Israelis. Whatever.
The signs carried by those protesters say "Long live the armed resistance of Hezbollah" and " The Zionist existance is a crime against Humanity". The chants started calling on every arab country to send in its armies to fight Israel and eliminate it. And talking to the people was an interesting experience as well: One of them totally believed that the Israelis were behind the Harriri assassination all along, in order to get the syrian army out of Lebanon and invade it again. Nevermind the the shit that the syrians did in Lebanon, or that Bashar threathend Harriri with death, or even that the syrian army couldn't do shit even when it was in Lebanon. Also nevermind that Hezbollah are the ones who started this whole thing by kidnapping the 2 israeli soldiers. Nope, not interested in discussing it with you; Israel is behind it all.
I left the demonstration thinking of the american left and their demonstrations in the US. They US left is totally anti-War, any kind of war. Not our left. Our left has always called for War. Actually, the war with Israel and getting rid of Mubarak have always been the only 2 things that the egyptian left and the islamic right have always agreed upon. That's their common ground.
Hmm…
And then when I went home I saw this post by Lisa and it depressed me even more.
It was on a Peace demonstration held in Tel Aviv by the Israeli left,
and attended by Arabs, Jews, Ashkenazi and Mizrahi. And From all age
groups too.
The signs they carried said "There is no military solution"….
And "In War there are only losers".
They chanted anti-War slogans, demanded an end to the bombardment and for the Israeli government to negotiate with Hezbollah. They wanted Peace.
I kept thinking that if arabs really wanted Peace, than those are the people that we really should be talking to, building bridges with. I had the same thought when those people were the majority in Israel, right after Rabin's assisnation, and how the whole country at the time was evenly divided between peace with the arabs and just going to war with them, and then Netenyaho won and you know how that story ended.
But then I rememebrd that we- the majority of us anyway- don't want peace with Israel, and are not interested in any real dialogue with them. We weren't then and we are not now. The Entire peace process has always been about getting the land back, not establishing better relations. Even when we do get the land back, it's not enough. People in Egypt lament daily the Camp David treaty that prevents us from fighting. In Gaza they never stopped trying to attack Israel. In Lebanon Hezbollah continued attacking even after the Israeli withdrawel. And the people- the majority of the arab population- support it. Very few of us are really interested in having any lasting Peace or co-existance. I mean, if our left is asking for war, what do you think the rest of the population is thinking?
I think that the Israeli want peace with us because they don't want their lives disrupted. They don't want to have the IDF soldiers fighting in Gaza, rockets coming into their towns from Hamas or having to go to wars against Hezbollah to get their soldiers back. I think they want peace because they want their peace of mind. They view us as if we were a headache. We view them as if they are a cancer.
And this is why there will never really be any peace in the middle-east.
July 17th, 2006 at 10:13 am
Why do you expect Arabs to welcome the Zionist project and be eager to have warm relation with its fruit that was built on the suffering of thousand human beings that happen to be Arabs!
July 17th, 2006 at 10:18 am
I am for peace and against any kind of wars especially those that claim to be for a noble cause. However, I can not imagine myself in a normal relation with a state build exclusively to shelter a human group regardless of the suffering of another.
July 17th, 2006 at 10:26 am
[...] Update: The Egyptian Sandmonkey attended a leftist "peace" demonstration in Cairo. Of course I always wished for them to demonstrate against the daily massacres of Iraqis by fellow Arabs/Muslims, but the last time I checked National Geographic I found that pigs can't fly. [...]
July 17th, 2006 at 10:32 am
There can be peace if Israeli decides to take responsibility for all the humans under its rule and give their lives equal worth. Give citizenship to children and youngsters not involved in violent acts. Pursue those who engage in violent acts like any state of law would have done with terrorist groups e.g. UK and Spain. Eliminate any schooling system that advocates violence or inequality from both sides thus creating few common pillars for coexistence.
If the democratic institutions of Israel are really strong they will be able to incorporate all the people under Tell Aviv rule. Incorporating the native African in South Africa did not turn it into another Congo or Zimbabwe, neither did it mean the expulsion of its white people; on the contrary it made SA a respected state, a real democracy in peace.
July 17th, 2006 at 10:47 am
And then what do you suggest the Israeli’s do with the Arabs who continue to blow themselves up for this “resistance”? The only thing they’re resisting is peace. Other nations deal with terrorists more effectively because they don’t have as many terrorists to deal with.
I’m not saying Israel has done everything right, but even if they were to try to incorporate the Arabs into their society and give them citizenship, there would always be a significant number of Palestinians and Arabs who are not interested in a peaceful solution which doesn’t involve them getting all their land back. This is a reality we cannot ignore, and until this problem is fixed internally within the Arab society, they will not be able to live side by side with a Jewish nation, simply because too many of them do not want to.
July 17th, 2006 at 10:58 am
Their will be no land given to any body, Israel should annex the territories that she currently occupies. BUT give equal right to all the humans in it and give their lives equal worth, the US aid to dictators like Mubarak should be diverted to alleviate the effects of 40 years of occupation and resistance. Then if anyone gets involved in criminal activities against the state he/she would not be granted citizenship rights and be left to rot in jail. In such a scheme those who will still consider Israel as their enemy will be a small fraction of the people under its rule.
July 17th, 2006 at 10:59 am
well done sandmonkey, i am astonished that you are brave enough to post such an article which depicts the situation truthfully. Our demos vs the demos in Israel.. where we want blood and they call for peace. IF only the rest of the country and the rest of the arab world can look deep into their souls and do careful examinations of motives and actions, then we would all be in a better place. Instead the whole of the arab world takes this crap victim mentality.
I cannot congratulate you enough for looking at this situation truthfully. It is to your credit. However, because the arab mentality is so retarded, you will be looked on as an Israeli sympathiser, anti arab, possibly a mossad agent- yes all the rubbish we ve come to know and love from people. It’s a lose lose situation for people who try to be truthful and fair.
Will this mentality ever change? Not in a million years…
Yours sincerely,
(Mossad agent no 1234)
July 17th, 2006 at 11:26 am
Israel a “cancer”? It can’t be territorial - Israel has given back more than half the land it once controlled! Financial? Oil-soaked Arabs are much richer than Jews. Population? Ha! What, are Egyptians afraid that their sons and daughters will suddenly convert to Judaism, a spiritual kind of spontaneous combustion?
July 17th, 2006 at 11:34 am
This is one of the most insightful and ultimately, depressing, assessments of the Middle East situation I have read. I think that you’re right: Many, perhaps a majority, of Arabs simply don’t want Israel to exist and many, perhaps a majority, of Israelis want the Palestinians in particular to cease to exist.
But since neither “wish” is likely to be granted, both sides would seem to need to accommodate themselves to one another’s existence. Until that happens, the prospects for peace are grim indeed.
But I pray for peace nonetheless.
July 17th, 2006 at 11:36 am
Amgad said: “Incorporating the native African in South Africa did not turn it into another Congo or Zimbabwe, neither did it mean the expulsion of its white people; on the contrary it made SA a respected state, a real democracy in peace.”
Actually, everything you wrote there is wrong. SA is a hellhole, though not quite as bad as Zimbabwe; crime against whites, the only ones there who know how to run things, has been on the rise since the end of apartheid, and many are fleeing the country, leaving it in the hands of kleptocratic thugs who brutalize and rob their own people. SA is in a downward spiral, and will probably soon, within say five or ten years, be another Mugabe-like dictatorship.
As far as the current situation in Israel and Lebanon goes, I hope the Israeli’s crush Hezbollah, then Hamas, and I wish they would invade Syria and put an end to that festering pustule called Assad.
July 17th, 2006 at 11:54 am
The deterioration that you claim happened to SA can be attributed to shear inequality in wealth distribution and huge difference in the level of education. Moreover, SA was an apartheid state not a democracy like Israel. I am optimistic that incorporation of all the people ruled by Tel Aviv in the Israeli state will preserve the only democracy in our region and rid it of its evil that is occupation and oppression of the natives.
July 17th, 2006 at 12:05 pm
I didn’t think I could get any more depressed. Oh how wrong I was.
July 17th, 2006 at 12:06 pm
The people at the demonstration were Chanting seriously anti-Israeli chants, even using ones used by Hamas and Hezbollah. The mood was one of anger. This wasn’t a pro-palestinian or Lebanese demonstration as much as it was an anti-Israel demonstration. And no one was particularly calling for peace.
I’m suprised that you were suprised
July 17th, 2006 at 12:26 pm
Great post SM. While there may not be military solution, as that sign says, the protest in Egypt underscores why unfortunately there is no diplomatic solution as well. One bone I pick is the line about the US left being anti-war. While that generally may be true, I have noticed that even they have quite the soft spot for the the Palestinian ‘resistance.’
July 17th, 2006 at 12:43 pm
Amgad -
Only 2.7% of Palestinians voted for a peaceful party in their elections. Do you propose that Israel becomes a huge police state?
And then there is this little problem that Jews simply don’t trust ANYONE after thousands of years or persecution… so we want a state in which the absolute majority are Jewish. This was we can at least persecute ourselves.
No, a one-state solution will never work.
July 17th, 2006 at 12:53 pm
–> amgad,
I have thought of a solution similar to yours, and maybe more pragmatic.
- Palestinians create their “state”, maybe not the size that they wanted, but hey, they decide that this is the best(or maybe the last) offer.
- They spend the following years actually building their society and land.Hate teachings stop, investment comes in, goverment changes hands peacfully.trade and other exchanges with israel develop.
- Both partties realize that it will be easier to sipmly a lot of things, from export/import rules to a lot of administrative things.there has been no massacre and no land seized during all this years.
- Eventually, both partie realize that a degree of integration or federalism can be uesfuel. and then maybe we could have something like belgium, with one capital and 2 distinct provinces with regional, religious and cultural differences.
Ok, belgium goes to a lot of trouble lately, but, hey, they are holding together since 1815, and they may not like eachother, but they don’t kill each other either!
BUT, it will take maybe 20-30 years to happen if they start tomorrow;
But what is 20 years in the face of 60 years of wars, and anyway in those lands everything is measured by 1000 years anyway;
Just my 2 cents
July 17th, 2006 at 1:00 pm
how do you expect the victim - arabs- to react ?
you wanted to see banners saying “Hey you keep killing innocent civilians with F16 fighter jets, but we insist on dreaming of peace with you regardless, unti the last child alive”
July 17th, 2006 at 1:30 pm
Ahmad, if this is the case, then we should be honest about our agenda. If we both seek mutual annihilation, then we can’t complain about the elusive peace of the middle-east and the death of the peace process.
Plus, all I am saying is this: the usual leftist position is that of ” sheer unrelaistic optimism and idealism” that we all can get along and stuff. This isn’t the case here. Here it is the left that is calling for war. That’s kind of strange, don;t you think?
But then again, the palestinian cause was hsitorically a an arab leftist cause, until the islamists highjacked it in the 1970’s and turned it into a Jihady issue. Maybe that’s why things are the way they are.
hmm…
July 17th, 2006 at 1:31 pm
“how do you expect the victim - arabs- to react ?”
About the same as the victims of Arab terrorism in Israel and the West.
With anger.
9/11 and 7/7 had the Arab world dancing with joy.
The weapon is double-edged ahmad
July 17th, 2006 at 1:39 pm
In all of the commentary I have read on this subject, I have not read a single person distinguish the difference between arrested ( Palestinians ) and kidnapped ( Israeli soldiers ). Do I believe there are innocent Palestinians / Southern Lebanese in Israeli jails, yes I do. Am I naive enough to believe that the Arab prisoners are living in wonderful conditions, no I am not. However, there is a difference between being arrested and being yanked away without formal charges and being hel with a knife at your neck by religious terrorists. The difference between the two methods may be symantic but even being a reasonable man, and taking each situation into deep consideration I abhore the concept of kidnapping especially by Islamic fundamentalist religious groups, because I know that it almost leads to the torture and death of the kidnapee.
I read in another post on this days SM posts that someone mentioned that the world does not care about Arab blood. What this person and so many others have failed to understand is that many in the rest of the world keep coming around the bend of sympathy for the Arabs who suffer but then the ” cartoons ” happen, The London Bombings happen, Hamas despite being given the opportunity of legitimacy but they continue to scream death to Israel happens ( Did the Palestinians elect Hamas because they wanted a group in legitimate power that could wage war on Israel or did they do it because they thought Hamas might mature, be a stronger delegate for the interests of the Palestinians on the street. less corruption, better civil services etc. ? )
The problem is that everytime the world starts to come back round to feel for the Arab side, which can only happen in peace, then your Islamic fundamentalists do something stupid and suddenly world public opinion is throw back 10 steps.
The way I look at it is that if I had a friend who betrayed my trust, a very bad thing for anyone. But if it is a very good friend, you slowly open yourself up to trusting that friend again, you slowly begin to forgive and see the good side of your friend again. If he has problems in his life, you start slowly but surely to empathise again with him ( feel sorry for him ), the BAM ! He betrays your trust again.
There are so many in this world who want equality for everyone ( including myself ). We want to see Arabs, besides the Sultans and Oil magnates prosper. We want to see the Palestinian people live hapilly and peacefully. We want to see Lebanon recover from it’s Syrian illness. In short, we do care about Arab blood. The problem is shown in this very post by SM. It is extremely hard to sympathise with the Arab Joe Q public when we see hate demonstrations and kidnappings and screams of death to Israel and the Infadels ( which includes every non-muslim world wide ).
The internet has been wonderful in showing that there is a minority of educated Middle Easterners who, while not forgiving Israel for it’s attrocities, do appreciate that peace is the answer and that, like my analogy above, maybe Israel needs time to open itself up to it’s friends in Palestine and Lebanon, but each time they slowly give more land and express a willingness to negotiate, Hamas and Hez.. get impatient and demand immediate action or else and then they act irrationally. Then instead of screams of desire for continued peace from the Arab on the street we hear death to Israel and the circle begins again. Everyone who wanted to feel for the Arab world recoils back into their positions of non chalance. Even I who supported Hamas’s election ( gingerly ) and so on and so on, now have no feelings at all for Israel’s attacks. If I sitting here in the comfort of my desk in the US, lose all patience for the Islamic fundamantalists then I cannot even begin to imagine what is going on in the Israeli mind, and yet I see ANTI WAR parades in Tel Aviv at the same time that ” death to Israel ” marches are occuring in Cairo.
I hope I can come round again and I will always feel a sense of brotherhood with ME bloggers who speak of reason on all sides. In paying much closer attention to blogs out of the ME, I was beginning to believe that maybe the tides were turning and there was a movement building, but now I am beginning to believe that this movement is restricted to only the educated, travelled minorities in the ME and that their desire of peace and reason has not and will never penetrate to the masses of people in the ME, who have the power in numbers to say enough is enough.
I believe one thing, that if there was a mass change of tide in the views of Israels Arab neighbours, that was proven through sit down talks and demonstrations in Palestine and South Lebanon where Arabs held up signs saying ” Enough is enough, let us become friends and neighbours, let us trade and become prosperous together ” etc. Once the trust set in and Israelt truly believed that the hate was fadding against it, it would begin to release these prisoners who were never charged that Israel would start to unfold and open it’s arms a little widder. It gave back territories, I am not there so I don’t know the value of these territories but it was a considerable gesture especially given the settlers etc. So far there has been zero reciprocation.
I could on and on and already have, but I hope that someone see the point of this book of opinion. I cannot blame Israel for over reacting like it is doing. This is about saving three soldiers for Israel, it is about reacting to zero progress with these Arab countries respective govt’s. All I have heard from Hamas is whinning about no aid. Feel sorry for us but shut your eyes that we are screming death to Israel.
July 17th, 2006 at 1:45 pm
I think this post has a gross historic inaccuracy. The Arab left was acutely very much in favor of Israel at its birth. They thought they were supporting a progressive socialist society facing a retrograde Arab states and a backward tribal society. They admired the Kibbutz and the strength of the Histodrot. However all this changed in 1956 after Israel colluded with Britain and France against Egypt. After the tripartite aggression the Egyptian communists started to view Israel as an imperialist proxy and the Zionist project as another colonial project displacing and oppressing native. Geroge Bush seems to reinforce this view whenever he calls Israel an ally and a friend.
July 17th, 2006 at 1:49 pm
Amgad
Actions speak louder than words.
We see history lessons ad nauseum here and it proves nothing except what you can claim by omissions and insertions.
July 17th, 2006 at 1:50 pm
The fact that hundreds of thousand of Palestinian used in work in Israel without being a Trojan for any violent movement indicates the possibility of the one state solution. The federal solution is also a possibility. But the occupation or the delusional two state solutions will only lead to more blood.
July 17th, 2006 at 1:57 pm
Amgad
And no coubt you have an explanation which shows that Israel alone was responsible for the failure.
July 17th, 2006 at 2:03 pm
There may or many not be a “real left” in Arab countries (I honestly don’t know enough about any country besides Palestine to tell…), but if there isn’t, then it’s people like you who can start it.
I’ve been a left-wing activist in Israel since my early teens, and believe me, some years we were practically non-existant. In the beginning of the Al-Aqtza Intifada, for example, in October 2000… Those were hard and dark times. It seemes like everybody in Israel has turned right-wing, or at least, moved towards the center. But we’ve risen, and we try, and we have our right-winged nut cases too, and still we don’t give up.
We CAN have peace. We CAN start living normal lives at last, pursuing our different life styles, and our different religious and cultural choices. All of us.
July 17th, 2006 at 2:14 pm
Loreley - an optimist, eh?
To have peace we’ll need a massive paradigm shift in the Arab/Islamic minds. Fat chance of that happening, as is plain for all to see.
The Israeli left is suffering from suicidal optimism at best and suicidal self-loathing at worst.
This suicidal left is hamstringing the country while scum like Taha continue to preach terrorism
Since the left opposes victory at all costs, and the Arabs/Islam will never settle for peace as long as there as living Jews… expect endless funerals with closed coffins forevermore.
July 17th, 2006 at 2:14 pm
If war isn’t a solution, then why do they approve of Arab war against Israel? Methinks “war is not a solution” only when Israel retatliates.
July 17th, 2006 at 2:20 pm
“Peace” demonstrations around the world almost always involve leftist groups with anti-Israel agendas.
Here’s some photos that Zombie took at the Israeli embassy in San Francisco. Heck, the pro-Palestine people look more militant than the ones in Tel-Aviv and Cairo combined
http://www.zombietime.com/israeli_consulate_protest_july_13_2006/
July 17th, 2006 at 2:22 pm
Raccoon - “optimist” is a kind of way of describing it. Most people just call me naive
Maybe I am both.
But most of all, I believe in humanity, and in people’s general ability to shift paradigms, change their minds, and cause amazing changes in their lives, in their communities, and in the world.
As naive as I may be, however, I’m neither suicidal, nor ill-informd. With 30 years of living in Israel and 2 degrees in international relations, I believe that “victory” is a fallacy. Victory would be to live calmly and mind my own business without worrying about missiles ruining my life, or air strikes runing the lives of others on my behalf. Suicidal would be to allow the cycle of violence to continue. Suicidal AND murderous, actually.
July 17th, 2006 at 2:29 pm
I must add, by the way, how amused I am by the adjectives used to describe me by all kinds of sides and parties. Arabs referring to me as cancer because I’m an Israeli… well… I’m too pretty to be cancer, in my humble opinion
And people accusing me of self-loathing because I’m a left-wing supporter? You wish. I love my country, and I’m proud of it. One does not have to endorse official policies in order to have a healthy attitude towards one’s origin/country/nation. There is a HUGE difference between the Israeli people/country and the Israeli *government*.
July 17th, 2006 at 2:30 pm
Extremists are extremists no matter which “side” they are on. Like a snake biting its own tail, the extremes come together.
July 17th, 2006 at 2:31 pm
Peace is a great idea, but it only seems to work in small doses.
The “cycle of violence” kinda presupposes a “tit for tat” situation but that is not how it is is it ?
It’s becoming clear to the rest of the world, that which Israelis knew for a long time, that Islamic indoctrination equips all “believers” with the certain knowledge that all unbelivers are evil and must be ultimately be destroyed.
The Islamic Ultimatum is not a negotiating position.
July 17th, 2006 at 2:37 pm
Loreley -
Agreed on definitions of victory. It’s not fallacy though - see WW2. It’s possible. Crush the terrorists, annihilate their supply lines, build a great big wall, install SkyGuard systems against aerial attacks and MetalStorm systems against ground attacks. And explain in a clear and decisive way that crime doesn’t pay, especially when that crime is murdering Israeli civilians.
How can you expect a paradigm shift when the people who control the information and education are terrorists? How can you expect a paradigm shift when the left makes sure terrorism WORKS?
You don’t stop a “cycle of violence” by raising your hands when your opponent wants you dead, dead, dead.
And humans are a bunch of naked, tailless apes individually and a mindless amoeba collectivelly - extremely dangerous in either form. Trusting their benevolence is… strange.
July 17th, 2006 at 2:38 pm
There is anger and anger towards many parties/groups. My recent article summarizes the confusion and intricacy of the inter-group relations in the region.
http://egyptianobserver.blogspot.com
July 17th, 2006 at 2:41 pm
I think it’s exactly a “tit for tat” situation, and has been for as long as I can remember myself listening to the evening news. True that the tit may not always be *precisely* the same type or size as the tat, but still, it’s tit for tat.
And it’s got to freaking stop, because personally, I do not want to live like this anymore. I don’t deserve it. Nobody deserves it. Israeli, Arab, Muslim, Yoda-worshipper, whatever. We deserve better.
I’m not intimidated by Capital Letters either. Like, ‘The Islamic Ultimatum’ or ‘The Zionist Enemy’. Capitalization is supposed to imbue these ideas with magical power? Cause I don’t buy it. I choose not to give any power to this BS. And yeah, extremists of both sides won’t negotiate with me, listen to me, or give a rat’s ass about what I have to say. But who cares about extremists anyway? It’s the sane people who can make a difference.
July 17th, 2006 at 2:55 pm
Loreley
I use caps for punctuation (sloppy I know) I didn’t know they had magic powers.
There is a difference in our views - probably just in one (small?) area !
I do not think that Islam is “just another religion or philosophy” with a congregation of a “usual spectrum of people”. I believe it to be a totalitarian philosophy of a most seriously evil kind as any reading of its scriptures will disclose.
Of course many people would argue about that - though life in all or any Islamic country tells its own story.
Be nice to a hungry tiger ?
July 17th, 2006 at 3:02 pm
Loreley - and yet you’d rather not debate the relevant points? Oh well.
July 17th, 2006 at 3:14 pm
Please, let this be a hoax:
http://www.globalpolitician.com/articleshow.asp?ID=1950&cid=11
July 17th, 2006 at 3:18 pm
The Raccoon -
I expect a paradigm shift since I believe that people are not stupid despite their living conditions and education. I expect it because ‘Net access and access to world media will give those people multiple point of views, and a chance to make their own mind up about things. Finally, I expect it because history has demonstrated time and time again that people can and do improve their situations, despite regimes, leaderships, conflicts, etc.
We differ greatly in the matter of human nature, it seems
July 17th, 2006 at 3:20 pm
SM has provided rallies that illustrate two opposite poles, the one in Egypt decidedly anti-Israeli, pro-war, the one in Israel decidely pro-peace. I am not questioning his objectivity and understand that the contrast is made to make the point of his post. But I am curious…Have there been any seriously anti-war protests in Egypt? Any rallies calling for a cease fire and negotiation? Likewise, have there been any hyper-patriotic rallies in Israel, calling for a widening of the war and encouraging other countries to come to Israel and join in the smashing of Islam?
July 17th, 2006 at 3:25 pm
Loreley
Those things are true, but sadly they are not the govering parameters of our world.
History demonstrates that bad things happen rather frequently and that powerful people are often misanthropic.
It is usually necessary to take wise precautions. That does not indicate inhumanity or bigotry (which you seem to suggest) but a just desire to stay alive and enjoy life - in spite of those who would like to arrange things differently!
Hope is great - prudence is also necessary.
July 17th, 2006 at 3:26 pm
I hope that your conclusion excludes yourself from the people who do not want peace. I personally met all so many arabs which are willing to make peace and make friends. I also met a few who don’t, unfortunately.
The thing is that you should understand that the extreme israeli left (which participated in the demonstration) still has to explain to the citizens why should they stop the bombings while it is the only way to ensure their safety.
I Believe that there is room for peace, not just by land, but real peace.
July 17th, 2006 at 3:28 pm
Ding ding ding ding ding! We have a winner in the “sum up the Middle East in one blog” contest. The Sandmonkey, come on down! You win an all-expenses paid trip to Minneapolis (you pay all the expenses). No, seriously, I’m e-mailing this to people. It is a must-read.
July 17th, 2006 at 3:30 pm
At least 10 Lebanese civilians die when their vehicles are hit by Israeli missiles, medical sources say.
why the fuck are the brave IDF hitting people fleeing their homes
July 17th, 2006 at 3:38 pm
Loreley reminds me of the family matriarch in the miniseries Holocaust , whose idealism and “it can’t be that bad” attitude ends in Auschwitz. Yeah, peace and kumbaya would be great, but it’s as likely to happen *without* war as I am to suddenly grow 4 inches taller tonight (then maybe I could get some of those HOT ME babes).
BTW, a two state solution is no longer possible. It was just revealed to be the launching pad for the final push into the sea. Forget about it. Either the Arab countries take the Palestinians in, or they go to Jordan. It’s not my opinion, it’s simply a fact. The fantasy is dead.
July 17th, 2006 at 3:42 pm
Loreley - I think I can sum it up as “terminally optimistic” :/
Oh well. Let us agree to disagree - just please don’t empower the people who’re trying to kill you and me.
July 17th, 2006 at 3:47 pm
“And it’s got to freaking stop, because personally, I do not want to live like this anymore. I don’t deserve it.”
But you DO want to live, correct? We know what happens when the IDF stays in their bunks because it was happening two weeks ago: rockets wherever rockets will reach. Bombs wherever bombs will reach. Attack and kidnapping wherever feet can cross the border. You are undermining and insulting the brave men and women who protect your right to wallow in your childish fantasy. Yes, people CAN change but mostly they do not want to. Yes, they must be forced militarily. To wait for sympathy for Jews to enter the Arab mind under the regimes they currently suffer is to await only your own destruction. Get on the right side. Your pacifism is merely an indulgence. Pull your weight.
July 17th, 2006 at 4:03 pm
Will we ever learn from history? We, Egyptians, really need to look within and contain our anger, pride, shame and fear. What a waste of energy and talent directed always at Israel and not at improving our lives. It is amazing how many Egyptians are rejecting the peace that Sadat accomplished and chose to live in violance, hate and anger!! is that being a good Muslim, or even a good human being? Total arrogance and rejection of God’s blessings. Israel can be a partner in the region and a good neighbor. Do our neighbors have to be Muslims in order for us to accept them and treat them well? Even that is a big lie because look how Muslims treat each other anyway. Wake up Egyptians and reject violence, false pride and terror.
July 17th, 2006 at 4:07 pm
Concur re: SA; dispute Amgad’s Marxist analysis of cause & effect. A major problem throughout the Middle East, including Israel, is pervasive socialism. The Arab monarchies and dictators always use this nonsense to focus the peoples’ attention on ethnic and class antagonisms, robbing them blind and returning crumbs disguised as “benefits” from the state.
Democracy works best among free men. You can’t really be free unless you are can own your land or shop, work it and keep the bounty thereof. In just about every state in the ME or Africa the final say resides with the government. You live and die according to the state’s favor. It perverts all legitimate reform and I doubt most Arabs can think outside the box their cultures have squeezed them into.
Only from Iraq or some exiled Persians and Lebanese do you hear any real talk of individual freedom and democracy.
Just my opinion.
R.
July 17th, 2006 at 4:14 pm
From the Hamas Charter:
“The Last Hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: `Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him’; but the tree Gharkad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.” (Sahih Muslim, Book 40, Number 6985).
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5673
Now explain to me how peace with the Israelis is possible? Hamas/Hizbollah et. al. follow a religion dedicated to the annihilation of Jews. Unfortunately the Jews are not going to take this crap lying down.
The biggest danger to Muslims is Islam.
July 17th, 2006 at 4:14 pm
I don’t know where people are from who write here, but in general, everywhere, I’m tired of people who have things to say when they don’t live here, on any side. Tired of bullshit the media causes and newscasters’ interpretations and politicians from other countries and Anglos, Europeans, anyone, who are bored and have nothing else to talk about or don’t want to admit their own weakenesses.
Why do they think they know what they’re talking about when they don’t live here? Have they family members shot by the army or blown up by terror? Deal with your own shit before you criticize all of us for ours.
July 17th, 2006 at 4:20 pm
Amgad,
No one wants the Palestinians. Not Egypt. Not Jordan. Not Lebanon. Not Syria. Not Iraq. Not Saudi Arabia. Not Israel.
Why should Israel be responsible for a people that their Arab BROTHERS don’t want?
Let the Palestinians govern themselves for 50 or 100 years. If they can manage that without starting a war every few years I think the Israelis might accept them.
July 17th, 2006 at 4:29 pm
Sean -
I agree with you about prudence. But there’s a difference between that and paranoia. See for example the responses from nice Jewish Boy and megapotamus above, who are sure that peace equals death to me. (I’m curious if you guys are even Israelis? Or live in the Middle East?).
Also, I absolutely did not mean to imply bigotry on your side. If you’ve read that, please let me apologize. I know it’s common practice to resort to acrimony and name-calling at the end of any good debate on Middle-East affairs, but it’s hardly my style
I respect your opinion, and yet disagree.
July 17th, 2006 at 4:33 pm
Loreley,
I’m not intimidated by Capital Letters either. Like, ‘The Islamic Ultimatum’ or ‘The Zionist Enemy’. Capitalization is supposed to imbue these ideas with magical power? Cause I don’t buy it.
That’s funny, because you use the same technique youurself!
Loreley: We CAN have peace. We CAN start living normal lives at last
It’s the magical “can”
We CAN change the world! We CAN make a difference!!
Reminds me of that old Coca-Cola commercial from the 1970s, with all the hippies standing out in the field drinking their Cokes singing “WE CAN CHANGE THE WORLD” - but you probably don’t remember that
Well, the hippies changed the world for the worse. The 1970s were the dark days, in America. A demoralized society in cultural free-fall. I’ll never forgive my parents’ generation for that. There was a lot that was good about the hippies. If only they had been able to stay out of politics!
July 17th, 2006 at 4:36 pm
Sounds like a good time to leave to me.
G’Day all
July 17th, 2006 at 4:36 pm
Military history tells us one thing, and one thing only: The only way that you can have peace emerge from war is for one side to be utterly defeated. Half-solutions only prolong the conflict and give hope to lost causes.
July 17th, 2006 at 4:44 pm
Craig,
I was born in late 1976, so no, I dont remember that particular Coca-Cola commercial unfortunately.
I use capitalization, or sometimes asterics to emphasize words as I would in speech… But what gets me in debates is the capitalization of propaganda slogans: ‘The Islamic Threat’, ‘The Zionist Enemy’, ‘The Israeli Cancer’, ‘The Hezbollah Reign of Terror’, as if those were personalized demons, with names and faces and a proper names, that we all must capture and defeat. Such drama… Not.
I’m curious about your last paragraph, though, how do you see American society today? Less demoralized than in the 1970s? More demoralized? Which do you think was the less demoralized period in American history? (Has nothing to do with this debate, you just piqued my curiosity.)
July 17th, 2006 at 4:45 pm
I see, Craig your actual position is about confrontation with your parents !
Hope you did not murder them
July 17th, 2006 at 4:53 pm
July 17th, 2006 at 4:53 pm
#23,
Very good point. An Arafat henchman said in 2000 when asked why, when the Palestinian economy was integrating with Israel and Palestinian fortunes were looking up (unemployment had declined from about 35% to about 15%) did the Palestinians want to start another war with Israel.
His answer was someting like: prosperous people do not want to be martyrs.
In other words the Arabs are being used by their leaders. The Arab life means nothing to the Arab ruler. You are cattle and cannon fodder for them.
http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/2006/07/war-on-palestinian-people.html
Your leaders are using the Israelis to administer beatings to you. And you keep asking for more. I’d say the Arab world is getting what it wants. A beating.
This is so stupid some days I want to scream.
Let me put my cards on the table. I’m an American Jew who thought, before the start of the Stupidfada in 2000 that the Palestinians were getting a raw deal. I’ve changed my mind.
In 2000 the peace camp in Israel was ascendant. No more.
Why do your rulers keep doing this to you? Because, prosperous people do not make good cannon fodder.
July 17th, 2006 at 4:55 pm
Raccoon,
Earlier you said Only 2.7% of Palestinians voted for a peaceful party in their elections.
Then it appears the Isrealis need only kill 93.7% of the voting population of the Palestinians.
July 17th, 2006 at 4:56 pm
Craig, I *do* remember that Coke commercial, and let me say to you “thanks” for bringing it up. The only thing worse than war is hippies. America’s worst legacy. Hippies. Oh man, I need to go lie down.
July 17th, 2006 at 4:57 pm
Base on a statisticaly error margin of +/- 3.6%
July 17th, 2006 at 5:08 pm
#44 # Amgad Says:
July 17th, 2006 at 3:30 pm
At least 10 Lebanese civilians die when their vehicles are hit by Israeli missiles, medical sources say.
why the fuck are the brave IDF hitting people fleeing their homes
Better question is why aren’t they hitting 50 or 100 vehicles? They have the power.
My guess is that they had intel (good, bad, indifferent) that fighters were in the vehicles, surrounded by the usual human shields.
Why do brave Arab fighters surround themselves with women and children? I expect it has something to do with how Arabs value the lives of others. Even their own.
Golda Mier said something like: the wars will be over when Arabs love their children as much as we love ours.
I think the Arabs could learn a little from the Jews. If that is permissible.
July 17th, 2006 at 5:10 pm
I see, Craig your actual position is about confrontation with your parents !
Yep! My Dad is a draft dodger and serial adulterer who has been married 5 times! Or is it 6? I forgot! His 3rd wife was Jewish, if that gives me any brownie points!? His second wife was Irish Catholic, his first wife (my Mom) is anglo like him, and his 4th wife was Italian. I lost track about then. But he’s a big proponent of diversity too! Do I get more brownie points for that? Free love, dude, free love! Gotta love free love, right? You know what’s really weird? He became an ultra-conservative college professor when he was in his 50s. He was an ulta-liberal capitalist in the private sector when he was young.
My Mom was just a hippie computer programmer, and never remarried. I blame her less
She’s also ultra conservative now.
The only former hippies I know who retain their original ideals are the ones who fried their brains with so much LSD that they seem to think they are still 22 and it’s still 1969. That’s the class Cindy Sheehan is in, I’m thinking.
Hope you did not murder them
Now, why would I do something like that? Do you think I’m a pyschopath? I just did what the rest of my generation did. Took the “free sex” and the drug culture of the hippies and ran with it, while leaving the rest behind. We gave the world the wonderful 80s
And we won the Cold War that our parents opposed! URAH!!!
July 17th, 2006 at 5:11 pm
The Nasserite organisation called ‘Karama’ sympolizes what is wrong with the Egyptian psyche which is in desperate need to prove they have Karama!! In the process of achieving this fake Karama they neglect reason, the best interest of the Egyptian people and what is really important in life. What is really important in life is not fake Karama of people who lack it, but the personal integrity and responsibility towards one’s family, wife, children and country. It is hard work and not pursuing a mirage called Karama. That is exactly what Nasser was all about; emotion, pride and a deep feeling of inferiority that drives senseless and irresponsible actions that jeapordizes the future of Egypt for generations to come. What will their empty slogans of stupid ‘karama’ do for Egypt? False feeling of pride will drive them no where just like Nasser drove Egypt close to destruction and poverty. Karama does not run a country. Karama does not bring people together. Karama is what destroying the beauty of closeness and fun between Egyptians. Karama brings arrogance to the way people interact and that is a desease in Egypt that thank God I got rid of. It stands in the way of good sense and good relations since everyone is worried about their Karama. I would never support a political organisation under such a silly name.
July 17th, 2006 at 5:11 pm
Anon -
It’s simple. Leave me in peace, and I’ll leave you in peace. Try to kill me and you’ll be sucking on my fist. Try to destoy my country and you’ll be sucking on a bullet. Try to destroy my people and you’ll be sucking on hot shrapnel. Come close to succeeding, and you’ll be sucking radioactive dust.
And yes, it applies to anyone, and I don’t care how many.
July 17th, 2006 at 5:17 pm
#54 Craig,
I’m one of those hippies. Sort of. I always believed in armed non-violence. Must be the outlaw biker influence. LOL
July 17th, 2006 at 5:21 pm
and you’ll be sucking radioactive dust.
And yes, it applies to anyone, and I don’t care how many.
like in Liban
July 17th, 2006 at 5:21 pm
Raccoon,
,em.Leave me in peace, and I’ll leave you in peace.
Fair enough. Now just convince the 99.999% of your bretheren to feel the same way.
Come close to succeeding, and you’ll be sucking radioactive dust.
I don’t think the radioactivity eminating from the radium in your glow-in-the-dark watch will have much effect.
July 17th, 2006 at 5:22 pm
Craig, so you started as an ultra conservativ, mind you finnish as ultra liberal !
July 17th, 2006 at 5:22 pm
Loreley,
I’m curious about your last paragraph, though, how do you see American society today? Less demoralized than in the 1970s? More demoralized?
Less. By far. I think people are being misled by America’s disillusionment with the Iraq war and Bush’s very low poll numbers into thinking the US is in full blown counter-culture mode. It’s not! Not even close. I remember what that’s like, and this ain’t it! We do intend to win the war on terror, and most americans I know are optimistic that we will. And we still support the troops, and strongly so. Despite what Cindy Sheehan would have people believe. The US military was a shambles in the 1970s as a result of the Vietnam disaster. Reagan fixed the military and made it stronger than ever (and I was one of the first of the new breed) but I have to say, I think the military is better now than it was in the Reagan Years. Though, it’s also much smaller. Reagan had about 3 times the troops that Bush has.
Which do you think was the less demoralized period in American history? (Has nothing to do with this debate, you just piqued my curiosity.)
Well. In my highly subjective opinion, the US has improved every decade since the 1970s. 80s were better than the 70s. 90s better than the 80s. And… whatever this decade is called… is better than the 90s. That’s just a gut feeling though. There have been ups and downs throughout but the overall trend the last 30 years seems good. (note: I’m only talking about societal factors here)
Hope I satisfied your curiousity. But I’m sure there are many others who see it differently
July 17th, 2006 at 5:29 pm
I am glad to see there is at least one arab in the world who has your perspective, Sandmonkey. Seems like most are CFW.