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Monday, 17 Jul 2006
Yesterday I went to a "Support Lebanon and Plestine" demonstration in front of the medical doctor's syndicate, which was organized by the Al Karama (Dignity) Pan Arabist Nasserite movement, Kefaya and youth for change- basically all leftist organizations-, along with other individuals from palestinian, lebanese and syrian origion. I went there expecting a Peace demonstration, what I got was a totally different deal.
The people at the demonstration were Chanting seriously anti-Israeli chants, even using ones used by Hamas and Hezbollah. The mood was one of anger. This wasn't a pro-palestinian or Lebanese demonstration as much as it was an anti-Israel demonstration. And no one was particularly calling for peace.
The signs people carried had slogans that said "long live the resistance in Palestine and Lebanon. They had pictures of Nasrallah and Nasser up. I am always preplexed when I see Nasser pictures up in such gatherings. Must be because he won so many wars against the Israelis. Whatever.
The signs carried by those protesters say "Long live the armed resistance of Hezbollah" and " The Zionist existance is a crime against Humanity". The chants started calling on every arab country to send in its armies to fight Israel and eliminate it. And talking to the people was an interesting experience as well: One of them totally believed that the Israelis were behind the Harriri assassination all along, in order to get the syrian army out of Lebanon and invade it again. Nevermind the the shit that the syrians did in Lebanon, or that Bashar threathend Harriri with death, or even that the syrian army couldn't do shit even when it was in Lebanon. Also nevermind that Hezbollah are the ones who started this whole thing by kidnapping the 2 israeli soldiers. Nope, not interested in discussing it with you; Israel is behind it all.
I left the demonstration thinking of the american left and their demonstrations in the US. They US left is totally anti-War, any kind of war. Not our left. Our left has always called for War. Actually, the war with Israel and getting rid of Mubarak have always been the only 2 things that the egyptian left and the islamic right have always agreed upon. That's their common ground.
Hmm…
And then when I went home I saw this post by Lisa and it depressed me even more.
It was on a Peace demonstration held in Tel Aviv by the Israeli left,
and attended by Arabs, Jews, Ashkenazi and Mizrahi. And From all age
groups too.
The signs they carried said "There is no military solution"….
And "In War there are only losers".
They chanted anti-War slogans, demanded an end to the bombardment and for the Israeli government to negotiate with Hezbollah. They wanted Peace.
I kept thinking that if arabs really wanted Peace, than those are the people that we really should be talking to, building bridges with. I had the same thought when those people were the majority in Israel, right after Rabin's assisnation, and how the whole country at the time was evenly divided between peace with the arabs and just going to war with them, and then Netenyaho won and you know how that story ended.
But then I rememebrd that we- the majority of us anyway- don't want peace with Israel, and are not interested in any real dialogue with them. We weren't then and we are not now. The Entire peace process has always been about getting the land back, not establishing better relations. Even when we do get the land back, it's not enough. People in Egypt lament daily the Camp David treaty that prevents us from fighting. In Gaza they never stopped trying to attack Israel. In Lebanon Hezbollah continued attacking even after the Israeli withdrawel. And the people- the majority of the arab population- support it. Very few of us are really interested in having any lasting Peace or co-existance. I mean, if our left is asking for war, what do you think the rest of the population is thinking?
I think that the Israeli want peace with us because they don't want their lives disrupted. They don't want to have the IDF soldiers fighting in Gaza, rockets coming into their towns from Hamas or having to go to wars against Hezbollah to get their soldiers back. I think they want peace because they want their peace of mind. They view us as if we were a headache. We view them as if they are a cancer.
And this is why there will never really be any peace in the middle-east.
July 17th, 2006 at 10:13 am
Why do you expect Arabs to welcome the Zionist project and be eager to have warm relation with its fruit that was built on the suffering of thousand human beings that happen to be Arabs!
July 17th, 2006 at 10:18 am
I am for peace and against any kind of wars especially those that claim to be for a noble cause. However, I can not imagine myself in a normal relation with a state build exclusively to shelter a human group regardless of the suffering of another.
July 17th, 2006 at 10:26 am
[...] Update: The Egyptian Sandmonkey attended a leftist "peace" demonstration in Cairo. Of course I always wished for them to demonstrate against the daily massacres of Iraqis by fellow Arabs/Muslims, but the last time I checked National Geographic I found that pigs can't fly. [...]
July 17th, 2006 at 10:32 am
There can be peace if Israeli decides to take responsibility for all the humans under its rule and give their lives equal worth. Give citizenship to children and youngsters not involved in violent acts. Pursue those who engage in violent acts like any state of law would have done with terrorist groups e.g. UK and Spain. Eliminate any schooling system that advocates violence or inequality from both sides thus creating few common pillars for coexistence.
If the democratic institutions of Israel are really strong they will be able to incorporate all the people under Tell Aviv rule. Incorporating the native African in South Africa did not turn it into another Congo or Zimbabwe, neither did it mean the expulsion of its white people; on the contrary it made SA a respected state, a real democracy in peace.
July 17th, 2006 at 10:47 am
And then what do you suggest the Israeli’s do with the Arabs who continue to blow themselves up for this “resistance”? The only thing they’re resisting is peace. Other nations deal with terrorists more effectively because they don’t have as many terrorists to deal with.
I’m not saying Israel has done everything right, but even if they were to try to incorporate the Arabs into their society and give them citizenship, there would always be a significant number of Palestinians and Arabs who are not interested in a peaceful solution which doesn’t involve them getting all their land back. This is a reality we cannot ignore, and until this problem is fixed internally within the Arab society, they will not be able to live side by side with a Jewish nation, simply because too many of them do not want to.
July 17th, 2006 at 10:58 am
Their will be no land given to any body, Israel should annex the territories that she currently occupies. BUT give equal right to all the humans in it and give their lives equal worth, the US aid to dictators like Mubarak should be diverted to alleviate the effects of 40 years of occupation and resistance. Then if anyone gets involved in criminal activities against the state he/she would not be granted citizenship rights and be left to rot in jail. In such a scheme those who will still consider Israel as their enemy will be a small fraction of the people under its rule.
July 17th, 2006 at 10:59 am
well done sandmonkey, i am astonished that you are brave enough to post such an article which depicts the situation truthfully. Our demos vs the demos in Israel.. where we want blood and they call for peace. IF only the rest of the country and the rest of the arab world can look deep into their souls and do careful examinations of motives and actions, then we would all be in a better place. Instead the whole of the arab world takes this crap victim mentality.
I cannot congratulate you enough for looking at this situation truthfully. It is to your credit. However, because the arab mentality is so retarded, you will be looked on as an Israeli sympathiser, anti arab, possibly a mossad agent- yes all the rubbish we ve come to know and love from people. It’s a lose lose situation for people who try to be truthful and fair.
Will this mentality ever change? Not in a million years…
Yours sincerely,
(Mossad agent no 1234)
July 17th, 2006 at 11:26 am
Israel a “cancer”? It can’t be territorial - Israel has given back more than half the land it once controlled! Financial? Oil-soaked Arabs are much richer than Jews. Population? Ha! What, are Egyptians afraid that their sons and daughters will suddenly convert to Judaism, a spiritual kind of spontaneous combustion?
July 17th, 2006 at 11:34 am
This is one of the most insightful and ultimately, depressing, assessments of the Middle East situation I have read. I think that you’re right: Many, perhaps a majority, of Arabs simply don’t want Israel to exist and many, perhaps a majority, of Israelis want the Palestinians in particular to cease to exist.
But since neither “wish” is likely to be granted, both sides would seem to need to accommodate themselves to one another’s existence. Until that happens, the prospects for peace are grim indeed.
But I pray for peace nonetheless.
July 17th, 2006 at 11:36 am
Amgad said: “Incorporating the native African in South Africa did not turn it into another Congo or Zimbabwe, neither did it mean the expulsion of its white people; on the contrary it made SA a respected state, a real democracy in peace.”
Actually, everything you wrote there is wrong. SA is a hellhole, though not quite as bad as Zimbabwe; crime against whites, the only ones there who know how to run things, has been on the rise since the end of apartheid, and many are fleeing the country, leaving it in the hands of kleptocratic thugs who brutalize and rob their own people. SA is in a downward spiral, and will probably soon, within say five or ten years, be another Mugabe-like dictatorship.
As far as the current situation in Israel and Lebanon goes, I hope the Israeli’s crush Hezbollah, then Hamas, and I wish they would invade Syria and put an end to that festering pustule called Assad.
July 17th, 2006 at 11:54 am
The deterioration that you claim happened to SA can be attributed to shear inequality in wealth distribution and huge difference in the level of education. Moreover, SA was an apartheid state not a democracy like Israel. I am optimistic that incorporation of all the people ruled by Tel Aviv in the Israeli state will preserve the only democracy in our region and rid it of its evil that is occupation and oppression of the natives.
July 17th, 2006 at 12:05 pm
I didn’t think I could get any more depressed. Oh how wrong I was.
July 17th, 2006 at 12:06 pm
The people at the demonstration were Chanting seriously anti-Israeli chants, even using ones used by Hamas and Hezbollah. The mood was one of anger. This wasn’t a pro-palestinian or Lebanese demonstration as much as it was an anti-Israel demonstration. And no one was particularly calling for peace.
I’m suprised that you were suprised
July 17th, 2006 at 12:26 pm
Great post SM. While there may not be military solution, as that sign says, the protest in Egypt underscores why unfortunately there is no diplomatic solution as well. One bone I pick is the line about the US left being anti-war. While that generally may be true, I have noticed that even they have quite the soft spot for the the Palestinian ‘resistance.’
July 17th, 2006 at 12:43 pm
Amgad -
Only 2.7% of Palestinians voted for a peaceful party in their elections. Do you propose that Israel becomes a huge police state?
And then there is this little problem that Jews simply don’t trust ANYONE after thousands of years or persecution… so we want a state in which the absolute majority are Jewish. This was we can at least persecute ourselves.
No, a one-state solution will never work.
July 17th, 2006 at 12:53 pm
–> amgad,
I have thought of a solution similar to yours, and maybe more pragmatic.
- Palestinians create their “state”, maybe not the size that they wanted, but hey, they decide that this is the best(or maybe the last) offer.
- They spend the following years actually building their society and land.Hate teachings stop, investment comes in, goverment changes hands peacfully.trade and other exchanges with israel develop.
- Both partties realize that it will be easier to sipmly a lot of things, from export/import rules to a lot of administrative things.there has been no massacre and no land seized during all this years.
- Eventually, both partie realize that a degree of integration or federalism can be uesfuel. and then maybe we could have something like belgium, with one capital and 2 distinct provinces with regional, religious and cultural differences.
Ok, belgium goes to a lot of trouble lately, but, hey, they are holding together since 1815, and they may not like eachother, but they don’t kill each other either!
BUT, it will take maybe 20-30 years to happen if they start tomorrow;
But what is 20 years in the face of 60 years of wars, and anyway in those lands everything is measured by 1000 years anyway;
Just my 2 cents
July 17th, 2006 at 1:00 pm
how do you expect the victim - arabs- to react ?
you wanted to see banners saying “Hey you keep killing innocent civilians with F16 fighter jets, but we insist on dreaming of peace with you regardless, unti the last child alive”
July 17th, 2006 at 1:30 pm
Ahmad, if this is the case, then we should be honest about our agenda. If we both seek mutual annihilation, then we can’t complain about the elusive peace of the middle-east and the death of the peace process.
Plus, all I am saying is this: the usual leftist position is that of ” sheer unrelaistic optimism and idealism” that we all can get along and stuff. This isn’t the case here. Here it is the left that is calling for war. That’s kind of strange, don;t you think?
But then again, the palestinian cause was hsitorically a an arab leftist cause, until the islamists highjacked it in the 1970’s and turned it into a Jihady issue. Maybe that’s why things are the way they are.
hmm…
July 17th, 2006 at 1:31 pm
“how do you expect the victim - arabs- to react ?”
About the same as the victims of Arab terrorism in Israel and the West.
With anger.
9/11 and 7/7 had the Arab world dancing with joy.
The weapon is double-edged ahmad
July 17th, 2006 at 1:39 pm
In all of the commentary I have read on this subject, I have not read a single person distinguish the difference between arrested ( Palestinians ) and kidnapped ( Israeli soldiers ). Do I believe there are innocent Palestinians / Southern Lebanese in Israeli jails, yes I do. Am I naive enough to believe that the Arab prisoners are living in wonderful conditions, no I am not. However, there is a difference between being arrested and being yanked away without formal charges and being hel with a knife at your neck by religious terrorists. The difference between the two methods may be symantic but even being a reasonable man, and taking each situation into deep consideration I abhore the concept of kidnapping especially by Islamic fundamentalist religious groups, because I know that it almost leads to the torture and death of the kidnapee.
I read in another post on this days SM posts that someone mentioned that the world does not care about Arab blood. What this person and so many others have failed to understand is that many in the rest of the world keep coming around the bend of sympathy for the Arabs who suffer but then the ” cartoons ” happen, The London Bombings happen, Hamas despite being given the opportunity of legitimacy but they continue to scream death to Israel happens ( Did the Palestinians elect Hamas because they wanted a group in legitimate power that could wage war on Israel or did they do it because they thought Hamas might mature, be a stronger delegate for the interests of the Palestinians on the street. less corruption, better civil services etc. ? )
The problem is that everytime the world starts to come back round to feel for the Arab side, which can only happen in peace, then your Islamic fundamentalists do something stupid and suddenly world public opinion is throw back 10 steps.
The way I look at it is that if I had a friend who betrayed my trust, a very bad thing for anyone. But if it is a very good friend, you slowly open yourself up to trusting that friend again, you slowly begin to forgive and see the good side of your friend again. If he has problems in his life, you start slowly but surely to empathise again with him ( feel sorry for him ), the BAM ! He betrays your trust again.
There are so many in this world who want equality for everyone ( including myself ). We want to see Arabs, besides the Sultans and Oil magnates prosper. We want to see the Palestinian people live hapilly and peacefully. We want to see Lebanon recover from it’s Syrian illness. In short, we do care about Arab blood. The problem is shown in this very post by SM. It is extremely hard to sympathise with the Arab Joe Q public when we see hate demonstrations and kidnappings and screams of death to Israel and the Infadels ( which includes every non-muslim world wide ).
The internet has been wonderful in showing that there is a minority of educated Middle Easterners who, while not forgiving Israel for it’s attrocities, do appreciate that peace is the answer and that, like my analogy above, maybe Israel needs time to open itself up to it’s friends in Palestine and Lebanon, but each time they slowly give more land and express a willingness to negotiate, Hamas and Hez.. get impatient and demand immediate action or else and then they act irrationally. Then instead of screams of desire for continued peace from the Arab on the street we hear death to Israel and the circle begins again. Everyone who wanted to feel for the Arab world recoils back into their positions of non chalance. Even I who supported Hamas’s election ( gingerly ) and so on and so on, now have no feelings at all for Israel’s attacks. If I sitting here in the comfort of my desk in the US, lose all patience for the Islamic fundamantalists then I cannot even begin to imagine what is going on in the Israeli mind, and yet I see ANTI WAR parades in Tel Aviv at the same time that ” death to Israel ” marches are occuring in Cairo.
I hope I can come round again and I will always feel a sense of brotherhood with ME bloggers who speak of reason on all sides. In paying much closer attention to blogs out of the ME, I was beginning to believe that maybe the tides were turning and there was a movement building, but now I am beginning to believe that this movement is restricted to only the educated, travelled minorities in the ME and that their desire of peace and reason has not and will never penetrate to the masses of people in the ME, who have the power in numbers to say enough is enough.
I believe one thing, that if there was a mass change of tide in the views of Israels Arab neighbours, that was proven through sit down talks and demonstrations in Palestine and South Lebanon where Arabs held up signs saying ” Enough is enough, let us become friends and neighbours, let us trade and become prosperous together ” etc. Once the trust set in and Israelt truly believed that the hate was fadding against it, it would begin to release these prisoners who were never charged that Israel would start to unfold and open it’s arms a little widder. It gave back territories, I am not there so I don’t know the value of these territories but it was a considerable gesture especially given the settlers etc. So far there has been zero reciprocation.
I could on and on and already have, but I hope that someone see the point of this book of opinion. I cannot blame Israel for over reacting like it is doing. This is about saving three soldiers for Israel, it is about reacting to zero progress with these Arab countries respective govt’s. All I have heard from Hamas is whinning about no aid. Feel sorry for us but shut your eyes that we are screming death to Israel.
July 17th, 2006 at 1:45 pm
I think this post has a gross historic inaccuracy. The Arab left was acutely very much in favor of Israel at its birth. They thought they were supporting a progressive socialist society facing a retrograde Arab states and a backward tribal society. They admired the Kibbutz and the strength of the Histodrot. However all this changed in 1956 after Israel colluded with Britain and France against Egypt. After the tripartite aggression the Egyptian communists started to view Israel as an imperialist proxy and the Zionist project as another colonial project displacing and oppressing native. Geroge Bush seems to reinforce this view whenever he calls Israel an ally and a friend.
July 17th, 2006 at 1:49 pm
Amgad
Actions speak louder than words.
We see history lessons ad nauseum here and it proves nothing except what you can claim by omissions and insertions.
July 17th, 2006 at 1:50 pm
The fact that hundreds of thousand of Palestinian used in work in Israel without being a Trojan for any violent movement indicates the possibility of the one state solution. The federal solution is also a possibility. But the occupation or the delusional two state solutions will only lead to more blood.
July 17th, 2006 at 1:57 pm
Amgad
And no coubt you have an explanation which shows that Israel alone was responsible for the failure.
July 17th, 2006 at 2:03 pm
There may or many not be a “real left” in Arab countries (I honestly don’t know enough about any country besides Palestine to tell…), but if there isn’t, then it’s people like you who can start it.
I’ve been a left-wing activist in Israel since my early teens, and believe me, some years we were practically non-existant. In the beginning of the Al-Aqtza Intifada, for example, in October 2000… Those were hard and dark times. It seemes like everybody in Israel has turned right-wing, or at least, moved towards the center. But we’ve risen, and we try, and we have our right-winged nut cases too, and still we don’t give up.
We CAN have peace. We CAN start living normal lives at last, pursuing our different life styles, and our different religious and cultural choices. All of us.
July 17th, 2006 at 2:14 pm
Loreley - an optimist, eh?
To have peace we’ll need a massive paradigm shift in the Arab/Islamic minds. Fat chance of that happening, as is plain for all to see.
The Israeli left is suffering from suicidal optimism at best and suicidal self-loathing at worst.
This suicidal left is hamstringing the country while scum like Taha continue to preach terrorism
Since the left opposes victory at all costs, and the Arabs/Islam will never settle for peace as long as there as living Jews… expect endless funerals with closed coffins forevermore.
July 17th, 2006 at 2:14 pm
If war isn’t a solution, then why do they approve of Arab war against Israel? Methinks “war is not a solution” only when Israel retatliates.
July 17th, 2006 at 2:20 pm
“Peace” demonstrations around the world almost always involve leftist groups with anti-Israel agendas.
Here’s some photos that Zombie took at the Israeli embassy in San Francisco. Heck, the pro-Palestine people look more militant than the ones in Tel-Aviv and Cairo combined
http://www.zombietime.com/israeli_consulate_protest_july_13_2006/
July 17th, 2006 at 2:22 pm
Raccoon - “optimist” is a kind of way of describing it. Most people just call me naive
Maybe I am both.
But most of all, I believe in humanity, and in people’s general ability to shift paradigms, change their minds, and cause amazing changes in their lives, in their communities, and in the world.
As naive as I may be, however, I’m neither suicidal, nor ill-informd. With 30 years of living in Israel and 2 degrees in international relations, I believe that “victory” is a fallacy. Victory would be to live calmly and mind my own business without worrying about missiles ruining my life, or air strikes runing the lives of others on my behalf. Suicidal would be to allow the cycle of violence to continue. Suicidal AND murderous, actually.
July 17th, 2006 at 2:29 pm
I must add, by the way, how amused I am by the adjectives used to describe me by all kinds of sides and parties. Arabs referring to me as cancer because I’m an Israeli… well… I’m too pretty to be cancer, in my humble opinion
And people accusing me of self-loathing because I’m a left-wing supporter? You wish. I love my country, and I’m proud of it. One does not have to endorse official policies in order to have a healthy attitude towards one’s origin/country/nation. There is a HUGE difference between the Israeli people/country and the Israeli *government*.
July 17th, 2006 at 2:30 pm
Extremists are extremists no matter which “side” they are on. Like a snake biting its own tail, the extremes come together.
July 17th, 2006 at 2:31 pm
Peace is a great idea, but it only seems to work in small doses.
The “cycle of violence” kinda presupposes a “tit for tat” situation but that is not how it is is it ?
It’s becoming clear to the rest of the world, that which Israelis knew for a long time, that Islamic indoctrination equips all “believers” with the certain knowledge that all unbelivers are evil and must be ultimately be destroyed.
The Islamic Ultimatum is not a negotiating position.
July 17th, 2006 at 2:37 pm
Loreley -
Agreed on definitions of victory. It’s not fallacy though - see WW2. It’s possible. Crush the terrorists, annihilate their supply lines, build a great big wall, install SkyGuard systems against aerial attacks and MetalStorm systems against ground attacks. And explain in a clear and decisive way that crime doesn’t pay, especially when that crime is murdering Israeli civilians.
How can you expect a paradigm shift when the people who control the information and education are terrorists? How can you expect a paradigm shift when the left makes sure terrorism WORKS?
You don’t stop a “cycle of violence” by raising your hands when your opponent wants you dead, dead, dead.
And humans are a bunch of naked, tailless apes individually and a mindless amoeba collectivelly - extremely dangerous in either form. Trusting their benevolence is… strange.
July 17th, 2006 at 2:38 pm
There is anger and anger towards many parties/groups. My recent article summarizes the confusion and intricacy of the inter-group relations in the region.
http://egyptianobserver.blogspot.com
July 17th, 2006 at 2:41 pm
I think it’s exactly a “tit for tat” situation, and has been for as long as I can remember myself listening to the evening news. True that the tit may not always be *precisely* the same type or size as the tat, but still, it’s tit for tat.
And it’s got to freaking stop, because personally, I do not want to live like this anymore. I don’t deserve it. Nobody deserves it. Israeli, Arab, Muslim, Yoda-worshipper, whatever. We deserve better.
I’m not intimidated by Capital Letters either. Like, ‘The Islamic Ultimatum’ or ‘The Zionist Enemy’. Capitalization is supposed to imbue these ideas with magical power? Cause I don’t buy it. I choose not to give any power to this BS. And yeah, extremists of both sides won’t negotiate with me, listen to me, or give a rat’s ass about what I have to say. But who cares about extremists anyway? It’s the sane people who can make a difference.
July 17th, 2006 at 2:55 pm
Loreley
I use caps for punctuation (sloppy I know) I didn’t know they had magic powers.
There is a difference in our views - probably just in one (small?) area !
I do not think that Islam is “just another religion or philosophy” with a congregation of a “usual spectrum of people”. I believe it to be a totalitarian philosophy of a most seriously evil kind as any reading of its scriptures will disclose.
Of course many people would argue about that - though life in all or any Islamic country tells its own story.
Be nice to a hungry tiger ?
July 17th, 2006 at 3:02 pm
Loreley - and yet you’d rather not debate the relevant points? Oh well.
July 17th, 2006 at 3:14 pm
Please, let this be a hoax:
http://www.globalpolitician.com/articleshow.asp?ID=1950&cid=11
July 17th, 2006 at 3:18 pm
The Raccoon -
I expect a paradigm shift since I believe that people are not stupid despite their living conditions and education. I expect it because ‘Net access and access to world media will give those people multiple point of views, and a chance to make their own mind up about things. Finally, I expect it because history has demonstrated time and time again that people can and do improve their situations, despite regimes, leaderships, conflicts, etc.
We differ greatly in the matter of human nature, it seems
July 17th, 2006 at 3:20 pm
SM has provided rallies that illustrate two opposite poles, the one in Egypt decidedly anti-Israeli, pro-war, the one in Israel decidely pro-peace. I am not questioning his objectivity and understand that the contrast is made to make the point of his post. But I am curious…Have there been any seriously anti-war protests in Egypt? Any rallies calling for a cease fire and negotiation? Likewise, have there been any hyper-patriotic rallies in Israel, calling for a widening of the war and encouraging other countries to come to Israel and join in the smashing of Islam?
July 17th, 2006 at 3:25 pm
Loreley
Those things are true, but sadly they are not the govering parameters of our world.
History demonstrates that bad things happen rather frequently and that powerful people are often misanthropic.
It is usually necessary to take wise precautions. That does not indicate inhumanity or bigotry (which you seem to suggest) but a just desire to stay alive and enjoy life - in spite of those who would like to arrange things differently!
Hope is great - prudence is also necessary.
July 17th, 2006 at 3:26 pm
I hope that your conclusion excludes yourself from the people who do not want peace. I personally met all so many arabs which are willing to make peace and make friends. I also met a few who don’t, unfortunately.
The thing is that you should understand that the extreme israeli left (which participated in the demonstration) still has to explain to the citizens why should they stop the bombings while it is the only way to ensure their safety.
I Believe that there is room for peace, not just by land, but real peace.
July 17th, 2006 at 3:28 pm
Ding ding ding ding ding! We have a winner in the “sum up the Middle East in one blog” contest. The Sandmonkey, come on down! You win an all-expenses paid trip to Minneapolis (you pay all the expenses). No, seriously, I’m e-mailing this to people. It is a must-read.
July 17th, 2006 at 3:30 pm
At least 10 Lebanese civilians die when their vehicles are hit by Israeli missiles, medical sources say.
why the fuck are the brave IDF hitting people fleeing their homes
July 17th, 2006 at 3:38 pm
Loreley reminds me of the family matriarch in the miniseries Holocaust , whose idealism and “it can’t be that bad” attitude ends in Auschwitz. Yeah, peace and kumbaya would be great, but it’s as likely to happen *without* war as I am to suddenly grow 4 inches taller tonight (then maybe I could get some of those HOT ME babes).
BTW, a two state solution is no longer possible. It was just revealed to be the launching pad for the final push into the sea. Forget about it. Either the Arab countries take the Palestinians in, or they go to Jordan. It’s not my opinion, it’s simply a fact. The fantasy is dead.
July 17th, 2006 at 3:42 pm
Loreley - I think I can sum it up as “terminally optimistic” :/
Oh well. Let us agree to disagree - just please don’t empower the people who’re trying to kill you and me.
July 17th, 2006 at 3:47 pm
“And it’s got to freaking stop, because personally, I do not want to live like this anymore. I don’t deserve it.”
But you DO want to live, correct? We know what happens when the IDF stays in their bunks because it was happening two weeks ago: rockets wherever rockets will reach. Bombs wherever bombs will reach. Attack and kidnapping wherever feet can cross the border. You are undermining and insulting the brave men and women who protect your right to wallow in your childish fantasy. Yes, people CAN change but mostly they do not want to. Yes, they must be forced militarily. To wait for sympathy for Jews to enter the Arab mind under the regimes they currently suffer is to await only your own destruction. Get on the right side. Your pacifism is merely an indulgence. Pull your weight.
July 17th, 2006 at 4:03 pm
Will we ever learn from history? We, Egyptians, really need to look within and contain our anger, pride, shame and fear. What a waste of energy and talent directed always at Israel and not at improving our lives. It is amazing how many Egyptians are rejecting the peace that Sadat accomplished and chose to live in violance, hate and anger!! is that being a good Muslim, or even a good human being? Total arrogance and rejection of God’s blessings. Israel can be a partner in the region and a good neighbor. Do our neighbors have to be Muslims in order for us to accept them and treat them well? Even that is a big lie because look how Muslims treat each other anyway. Wake up Egyptians and reject violence, false pride and terror.
July 17th, 2006 at 4:07 pm
Concur re: SA; dispute Amgad’s Marxist analysis of cause & effect. A major problem throughout the Middle East, including Israel, is pervasive socialism. The Arab monarchies and dictators always use this nonsense to focus the peoples’ attention on ethnic and class antagonisms, robbing them blind and returning crumbs disguised as “benefits” from the state.
Democracy works best among free men. You can’t really be free unless you are can own your land or shop, work it and keep the bounty thereof. In just about every state in the ME or Africa the final say resides with the government. You live and die according to the state’s favor. It perverts all legitimate reform and I doubt most Arabs can think outside the box their cultures have squeezed them into.
Only from Iraq or some exiled Persians and Lebanese do you hear any real talk of individual freedom and democracy.
Just my opinion.
R.
July 17th, 2006 at 4:14 pm
From the Hamas Charter:
“The Last Hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: `Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him’; but the tree Gharkad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.” (Sahih Muslim, Book 40, Number 6985).
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5673
Now explain to me how peace with the Israelis is possible? Hamas/Hizbollah et. al. follow a religion dedicated to the annihilation of Jews. Unfortunately the Jews are not going to take this crap lying down.
The biggest danger to Muslims is Islam.
July 17th, 2006 at 4:14 pm
I don’t know where people are from who write here, but in general, everywhere, I’m tired of people who have things to say when they don’t live here, on any side. Tired of bullshit the media causes and newscasters’ interpretations and politicians from other countries and Anglos, Europeans, anyone, who are bored and have nothing else to talk about or don’t want to admit their own weakenesses.
Why do they think they know what they’re talking about when they don’t live here? Have they family members shot by the army or blown up by terror? Deal with your own shit before you criticize all of us for ours.
July 17th, 2006 at 4:20 pm
Amgad,
No one wants the Palestinians. Not Egypt. Not Jordan. Not Lebanon. Not Syria. Not Iraq. Not Saudi Arabia. Not Israel.
Why should Israel be responsible for a people that their Arab BROTHERS don’t want?
Let the Palestinians govern themselves for 50 or 100 years. If they can manage that without starting a war every few years I think the Israelis might accept them.
July 17th, 2006 at 4:29 pm
Sean -
I agree with you about prudence. But there’s a difference between that and paranoia. See for example the responses from nice Jewish Boy and megapotamus above, who are sure that peace equals death to me. (I’m curious if you guys are even Israelis? Or live in the Middle East?).
Also, I absolutely did not mean to imply bigotry on your side. If you’ve read that, please let me apologize. I know it’s common practice to resort to acrimony and name-calling at the end of any good debate on Middle-East affairs, but it’s hardly my style
I respect your opinion, and yet disagree.
July 17th, 2006 at 4:33 pm
Loreley,
I’m not intimidated by Capital Letters either. Like, ‘The Islamic Ultimatum’ or ‘The Zionist Enemy’. Capitalization is supposed to imbue these ideas with magical power? Cause I don’t buy it.
That’s funny, because you use the same technique youurself!
Loreley: We CAN have peace. We CAN start living normal lives at last
It’s the magical “can”
We CAN change the world! We CAN make a difference!!
Reminds me of that old Coca-Cola commercial from the 1970s, with all the hippies standing out in the field drinking their Cokes singing “WE CAN CHANGE THE WORLD” - but you probably don’t remember that
Well, the hippies changed the world for the worse. The 1970s were the dark days, in America. A demoralized society in cultural free-fall. I’ll never forgive my parents’ generation for that. There was a lot that was good about the hippies. If only they had been able to stay out of politics!
July 17th, 2006 at 4:36 pm
Sounds like a good time to leave to me.
G’Day all
July 17th, 2006 at 4:36 pm
Military history tells us one thing, and one thing only: The only way that you can have peace emerge from war is for one side to be utterly defeated. Half-solutions only prolong the conflict and give hope to lost causes.
July 17th, 2006 at 4:44 pm
Craig,
I was born in late 1976, so no, I dont remember that particular Coca-Cola commercial unfortunately.
I use capitalization, or sometimes asterics to emphasize words as I would in speech… But what gets me in debates is the capitalization of propaganda slogans: ‘The Islamic Threat’, ‘The Zionist Enemy’, ‘The Israeli Cancer’, ‘The Hezbollah Reign of Terror’, as if those were personalized demons, with names and faces and a proper names, that we all must capture and defeat. Such drama… Not.
I’m curious about your last paragraph, though, how do you see American society today? Less demoralized than in the 1970s? More demoralized? Which do you think was the less demoralized period in American history? (Has nothing to do with this debate, you just piqued my curiosity.)
July 17th, 2006 at 4:45 pm
I see, Craig your actual position is about confrontation with your parents !
Hope you did not murder them
July 17th, 2006 at 4:53 pm
July 17th, 2006 at 4:53 pm
#23,
Very good point. An Arafat henchman said in 2000 when asked why, when the Palestinian economy was integrating with Israel and Palestinian fortunes were looking up (unemployment had declined from about 35% to about 15%) did the Palestinians want to start another war with Israel.
His answer was someting like: prosperous people do not want to be martyrs.
In other words the Arabs are being used by their leaders. The Arab life means nothing to the Arab ruler. You are cattle and cannon fodder for them.
http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/2006/07/war-on-palestinian-people.html
Your leaders are using the Israelis to administer beatings to you. And you keep asking for more. I’d say the Arab world is getting what it wants. A beating.
This is so stupid some days I want to scream.
Let me put my cards on the table. I’m an American Jew who thought, before the start of the Stupidfada in 2000 that the Palestinians were getting a raw deal. I’ve changed my mind.
In 2000 the peace camp in Israel was ascendant. No more.
Why do your rulers keep doing this to you? Because, prosperous people do not make good cannon fodder.
July 17th, 2006 at 4:55 pm
Raccoon,
Earlier you said Only 2.7% of Palestinians voted for a peaceful party in their elections.
Then it appears the Isrealis need only kill 93.7% of the voting population of the Palestinians.
July 17th, 2006 at 4:56 pm
Craig, I *do* remember that Coke commercial, and let me say to you “thanks” for bringing it up. The only thing worse than war is hippies. America’s worst legacy. Hippies. Oh man, I need to go lie down.
July 17th, 2006 at 4:57 pm
Base on a statisticaly error margin of +/- 3.6%
July 17th, 2006 at 5:08 pm
#44 # Amgad Says:
July 17th, 2006 at 3:30 pm
At least 10 Lebanese civilians die when their vehicles are hit by Israeli missiles, medical sources say.
why the fuck are the brave IDF hitting people fleeing their homes
Better question is why aren’t they hitting 50 or 100 vehicles? They have the power.
My guess is that they had intel (good, bad, indifferent) that fighters were in the vehicles, surrounded by the usual human shields.
Why do brave Arab fighters surround themselves with women and children? I expect it has something to do with how Arabs value the lives of others. Even their own.
Golda Mier said something like: the wars will be over when Arabs love their children as much as we love ours.
I think the Arabs could learn a little from the Jews. If that is permissible.
July 17th, 2006 at 5:10 pm
I see, Craig your actual position is about confrontation with your parents !
Yep! My Dad is a draft dodger and serial adulterer who has been married 5 times! Or is it 6? I forgot! His 3rd wife was Jewish, if that gives me any brownie points!? His second wife was Irish Catholic, his first wife (my Mom) is anglo like him, and his 4th wife was Italian. I lost track about then. But he’s a big proponent of diversity too! Do I get more brownie points for that? Free love, dude, free love! Gotta love free love, right? You know what’s really weird? He became an ultra-conservative college professor when he was in his 50s. He was an ulta-liberal capitalist in the private sector when he was young.
My Mom was just a hippie computer programmer, and never remarried. I blame her less
She’s also ultra conservative now.
The only former hippies I know who retain their original ideals are the ones who fried their brains with so much LSD that they seem to think they are still 22 and it’s still 1969. That’s the class Cindy Sheehan is in, I’m thinking.
Hope you did not murder them
Now, why would I do something like that? Do you think I’m a pyschopath? I just did what the rest of my generation did. Took the “free sex” and the drug culture of the hippies and ran with it, while leaving the rest behind. We gave the world the wonderful 80s
And we won the Cold War that our parents opposed! URAH!!!
July 17th, 2006 at 5:11 pm
The Nasserite organisation called ‘Karama’ sympolizes what is wrong with the Egyptian psyche which is in desperate need to prove they have Karama!! In the process of achieving this fake Karama they neglect reason, the best interest of the Egyptian people and what is really important in life. What is really important in life is not fake Karama of people who lack it, but the personal integrity and responsibility towards one’s family, wife, children and country. It is hard work and not pursuing a mirage called Karama. That is exactly what Nasser was all about; emotion, pride and a deep feeling of inferiority that drives senseless and irresponsible actions that jeapordizes the future of Egypt for generations to come. What will their empty slogans of stupid ‘karama’ do for Egypt? False feeling of pride will drive them no where just like Nasser drove Egypt close to destruction and poverty. Karama does not run a country. Karama does not bring people together. Karama is what destroying the beauty of closeness and fun between Egyptians. Karama brings arrogance to the way people interact and that is a desease in Egypt that thank God I got rid of. It stands in the way of good sense and good relations since everyone is worried about their Karama. I would never support a political organisation under such a silly name.
July 17th, 2006 at 5:11 pm
Anon -
It’s simple. Leave me in peace, and I’ll leave you in peace. Try to kill me and you’ll be sucking on my fist. Try to destoy my country and you’ll be sucking on a bullet. Try to destroy my people and you’ll be sucking on hot shrapnel. Come close to succeeding, and you’ll be sucking radioactive dust.
And yes, it applies to anyone, and I don’t care how many.
July 17th, 2006 at 5:17 pm
#54 Craig,
I’m one of those hippies. Sort of. I always believed in armed non-violence. Must be the outlaw biker influence. LOL
July 17th, 2006 at 5:21 pm
and you’ll be sucking radioactive dust.
And yes, it applies to anyone, and I don’t care how many.
like in Liban
July 17th, 2006 at 5:21 pm
Raccoon,
,em.Leave me in peace, and I’ll leave you in peace.
Fair enough. Now just convince the 99.999% of your bretheren to feel the same way.
Come close to succeeding, and you’ll be sucking radioactive dust.
I don’t think the radioactivity eminating from the radium in your glow-in-the-dark watch will have much effect.
July 17th, 2006 at 5:22 pm
Craig, so you started as an ultra conservativ, mind you finnish as ultra liberal !
July 17th, 2006 at 5:22 pm
Loreley,
I’m curious about your last paragraph, though, how do you see American society today? Less demoralized than in the 1970s? More demoralized?
Less. By far. I think people are being misled by America’s disillusionment with the Iraq war and Bush’s very low poll numbers into thinking the US is in full blown counter-culture mode. It’s not! Not even close. I remember what that’s like, and this ain’t it! We do intend to win the war on terror, and most americans I know are optimistic that we will. And we still support the troops, and strongly so. Despite what Cindy Sheehan would have people believe. The US military was a shambles in the 1970s as a result of the Vietnam disaster. Reagan fixed the military and made it stronger than ever (and I was one of the first of the new breed) but I have to say, I think the military is better now than it was in the Reagan Years. Though, it’s also much smaller. Reagan had about 3 times the troops that Bush has.
Which do you think was the less demoralized period in American history? (Has nothing to do with this debate, you just piqued my curiosity.)
Well. In my highly subjective opinion, the US has improved every decade since the 1970s. 80s were better than the 70s. 90s better than the 80s. And… whatever this decade is called… is better than the 90s. That’s just a gut feeling though. There have been ups and downs throughout but the overall trend the last 30 years seems good. (note: I’m only talking about societal factors here)
Hope I satisfied your curiousity. But I’m sure there are many others who see it differently
July 17th, 2006 at 5:29 pm
I am glad to see there is at least one arab in the world who has your perspective, Sandmonkey. Seems like most are CFW.
July 17th, 2006 at 5:29 pm
So you guys are saying the Egyptians suffer from too much Pride and Prejudice? Or is it a lack of Sense and Sensibility?
(And has Jane Austen been translated to Arabic?)
July 17th, 2006 at 5:30 pm
SM:
“Left” in Arabic must not mean the same as “left” in english. Only conclusion I can come up with.
“Long live the armed resistance of Hezbollah” and ” The Zionist existance is a crime against Humanity”.
“Resistance in the quote is a misnomer. It can be” the act or power of resisting, opposing, or withstanding”, in which case something is coming at you or “an underground organization working to liberate a country occupied by a foreign power”, which the elected government in Gaza is not and which the Hizbullah in Lebanon is not.
Of course all of this is splitting hairs with a populace whos mentality is only suitable for splitting heads with blunt instruments.
July 17th, 2006 at 5:31 pm
to simon 64
So next time Hams bomb a bus in Tel Aviv they might say that an IOF soldier was supposed to be in it or around it. Anyway with more than 300000 Israeli in active military service and thousand more in reserve, Hamas has a good chance killing one or more of them in a busy bus in Tel aviv.
Killing civilians is unjustifiable period.
July 17th, 2006 at 5:48 pm
I dont truly believe the violent representation of the left in Egypt is odd or even shamefull. Its not unlike numerous resistence movements in history from the mouth of the, “oppressed”, “minority”, “underdog”, whatever you want to call them. The Arabs, left or not, see they are overpowered and are clearly getting the worst of the beating. You can see this same trend in both the early civil rights movement (Pre-MLK jr.) and in the later civil rights movement of Malcom X. The clearist example of violent resistence by the underdog is any historical revolution you can think of especially those of the American revoloution and the French revoloution. So is it odd that the weakest most underpowered group is calling to destroy their enemy (israel)?….Nahhh.
July 17th, 2006 at 6:09 pm
#76,
That is the Hamas justification. Except they don’t even try to check before they fire. They fire and hope.
Of course since all Jews are eternally the enemy according to their religion (See #50 above) no matter who they kill they are winning. If the Jews had the same attitude there would be 100,000 Palestinian dead in a week. 20,000 Lebanese would be in their graves by now.
If Hamas had the power it would not shoot 1 car. They would go after 1,000. Or 10,000. Or 1,000,000. Since according to their religion there can be no peace on Earth as long as even one Jew is alive.
It is not a matter of defence for Hamas (mistakes or no). It is a matter of killing Jews. Which they teach their children well.
If Arabs want to be victims they will be. Nothing can stop it. The government of Lebanon claims to be powerless. I think they are right.
July 17th, 2006 at 6:09 pm
Poison Gas On Lebanese
By Wayne Madsen
Excluvise To WMR
7-17-6
Our intelligence sources in Lebanon have reported to us exclusively that Israel is now using poison gas and depleted uranium shells on towns in the south of Lebanon. Residents of the small village of Kasarshoba became violently ill, experiencing severe vomiting, after the Israelis hit the village with poison gas. In other cases, underground shelters in southern Lebanon were hit by Israeli depleted uranium shells. Our sources also report that the entire southern suburbs of southern Beirut, with a population of 800,000, have been totally depopulated. Israel has targeted thousands of civilian homes for destruction.
Meanwhile, Israeli government spokespersons and Bush administration officials took to the Sunday morning talking head programs in Washington to defend Israel’s barbarous actions. The networks failed to present the views of Lebanese government spokespersons. Israel’s and the Bush administration’s line is that Israeli attacks are “precision targeted.” Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice pointedly refused to criticize Israel on ABC’s This Week.
Israeli Kadima (ex-Likud) Prime Minister Ehud Olmert joins Ariel Sharon in annals of Israeli leaders who committed war crimes in Lebanon.
American media is failing to report that the Israeli attacks on Lebanon and Gaza, like the U.S. attacks in Iraq, are violations of the Fourth Geneva Convention and Additional Protocols governing military attacks on civilians by governments that are parties to the conventions:
Civilians are not to be subject to attack. This includes direct attacks on civilians and indiscriminate attacks against areas in which civilians are present.
There is to be no destruction of property unless justified by military necessity.
Warring parties must not use or develop biological or chemical weapons
July 17th, 2006 at 6:13 pm
Right, Israel’s going to use poison gas. To what end? Sounds like those innocent Palis who got shelled on the beach. What happened was a Hamas weapons dump exploded. Sounds like Israel hit a Hezb poison gas depot, which ironically, is stored in a civilian area.
July 17th, 2006 at 6:26 pm
A couple days ago, Seniora (I think) falsely claimed that White Phosphorous (which is the most common of all smoke agents) was a banned chemical weapon. The same false charge of using WMD that was made by Italians aganist the US at Falluja. These charges are scurillous and vile, and I certainly think Seniora should be held to account for that false charge of war crimes. He is a senior government official. Not a blogger. And not a journalist.
As for the “poison gas” - CN (a non-lethal riot control agent related to CS aka “Tear Gas”) can and will produce nausea. That’s what it is designed to do. But instead of praising Israel for using non-lethal and perfectly legal crowd control agents, you accuse Israel of using “poison gas” nomad. The word poison implies a physiologically toxic effect. You are accusing Israel of using banned Chemical Weapons when you make that claim. How many times have the french police used tear gas on crowds in Paris? Is the French Govetnment guilty of crimes against humanity for that!?
The situation is bad enough without people attempting to create hysteria.
July 17th, 2006 at 6:28 pm
Wayne Madsen - the same guy who claimed that the Cole was hit by an Israeli Cruise Missile. And, oh look! He’s “exclusively” writing for the Wayne Madsen Report! Shocking! Must be true.
July 17th, 2006 at 6:31 pm
I did accuse , I just quote an article who said so, it means i had like explanations, if yours are acurate
July 17th, 2006 at 6:31 pm
By the way, Nomad, I expect you to be the first here on this blog apologizing when the story turns out to be false, and it turns out nobody has been “poisoned” in Lebanon. You were the first to make the charge, here.
July 17th, 2006 at 6:34 pm
Nomad, why would you copy-paste an article that made such outrageous claims, if you didn’t believe them? Is it my job, or anyone else’s on this blog, to refute false charges? Or is it your job not to make false charges?
I spent enough of my time playing this game on Iraqi blogs in the last year. I don’t enjoy it. I find it very annoying and frustrating. Just don’t repeat things that you don’t know to be true, please… especially if it a “war crimes” charge!!
July 17th, 2006 at 6:36 pm
It is a bit hypocritical to portray the Israeli left as superior to the left in the Arab world…The majority of the Israeli left serve in the army, believe in an exclusively Jewish state and do not akgnowledge that the creation of Israel had anything to do with the destruction of palestinian life. Heck! i was asked by an Israeli friend who used to be a mmeber of the Israeli communist youth “but why did the Palestinian refugees decide to come to Israel from the surrounding Arab countries?”–OMG how can you be so ignorant? and she is a genuinly nice person!
There is a good Israeli left and a good Arab left…unfortunately, both are a tiny minority! God bless’em.
The Israelis have a good life, the only thing missing for them is peace and stability…thats why the are calling for it…The Palestinians/Egyptians/Lebanese lack much more, no wonder they’re angry!
July 17th, 2006 at 6:47 pm
you misunderstood, i ment I did not accuse, ( the not was out), Why should I believe you more than this quote, till then you are on only one one side view, I search the truth !
July 17th, 2006 at 6:54 pm
Hounding the Hell Out of Hizbullah and Hamas
Iran may have miscalculated in the conflict because Hizbullah and Hamas are being decimated by Israel without any tangible improvement in Iran’s strategic interests. In fact, losing their prime proxies in the region is a huge loss for them, which mea…
July 17th, 2006 at 6:54 pm
The tired old depleted uranium schtick again?
I guess the rest of the report is equally credible.
Why not just stick with poison gas reports? I guess it would not make the case sufficiently for the Arab drama queens.
The danger from depleted uranium is not the uranium. It is the velocity and the enclosed high explosives (if any). Or the toxcisity of heavy metal. Of course lead is a heavy metal.
Depleted Uranium or Depleted Intellegence?
July 17th, 2006 at 6:58 pm
Let us not forget it was palæstinenser who blow them self up in sharm el shiek an kill so many egyptians
July 17th, 2006 at 7:01 pm
#86,
If israel is an exclusively Jewish state why do so many Arabs live there? Are they all Jewish? LOL
And some of the anti-Israeli Arabs are in the legislature. How did that happen in an apartheid state?
Where are the Jewish representatives in the Palestinian Parliament? There is your real apartheid state.
July 17th, 2006 at 7:10 pm
I apologize to everyone on this blog for posting this but Craig.
Craig, When are you going to learn to leave people alone and not exercise your harassment tactics?. Why are you attacking nomad?. Your destructive behavior and hostility should need some medical attention.
Nomad, Don’t get intimidated by him, you have all the right to question and read and qote.
July 17th, 2006 at 7:18 pm
Craig has a point. That depleted uranium stuff should be a red flag for any one who has looked into it.
If nomad hasn’t looked into it by now he should go back to the Vorga.
July 17th, 2006 at 7:32 pm
Simon,
Any news are subject to cirtical thinking, if Noman found and article and he shared it he shouldn’t be subjected to attacks, Craig has been doing this to others who doesn’t agree with his line of thinking.
I think at least one person is not posting because of his constant harassement and his use of inappropriate language to describe people who differ.
July 17th, 2006 at 7:36 pm
PA,
It is nomad. I’m pretty thick skinned as is the owner of this blog.
Be forewarned: The writer of this blog is an extremely cynical, snarky, pro-US, secular, libertarian, disgruntled sandmonkey. If this is your cup of tea, please enjoy your stay here. If not, please sod off.
That describes me pretty well. Except for the sand monkey part. I’m the son of pigs and apes. LOL.
July 17th, 2006 at 7:38 pm
Let me format that better.
PA,
It is nomad. I’m pretty thick skinned as is the owner of this blog.
Be forewarned: The writer of this blog is an extremely cynical, snarky, pro-US, secular, libertarian, disgruntled sandmonkey. If this is your cup of tea, please enjoy your stay here. If not, please sod off.
That describes me pretty well. Except for the sand monkey part. I’m the son of pigs and monkeys. LOL.
July 17th, 2006 at 7:40 pm
Now I have everything screwed.
July 17th, 2006 at 7:41 pm
I am not intimidated by Craig, I know how he is quick to bark
(and that is why he is in a way a teddy-bear )
M. Simon, I read your link
by the ways, Vorga is your eden ?
July 17th, 2006 at 7:41 pm
Did that fix it?
July 17th, 2006 at 7:46 pm
Vorga my Eden? No.
Google - Nomad Vorga - for the inside joke. I think you might find it interesting. Be prepared. A movie is being made where Nomad is the central character. In a year or three you will be famous.
Sorry for screwing up the formatting. Wish there was a preview.
July 17th, 2006 at 7:48 pm
thanks peace Advocate, do I owe you a nickel ?
now, what ever happened, it will be known one day, Hope Wayne Masden is wrong !
case closed !
July 17th, 2006 at 7:51 pm
Look at who is actually committing the violence. Protestors are harming anyone. They can scream for war all they want. Whats your point that israelis are civilized, but we are not. who is killing the most civilians. israel or the arab countries. Once again another israel is civilized, let them kill, because their protestors are cuter than the egyptian ones. MORe Monkey BS
July 17th, 2006 at 7:57 pm
M. Simon, Eden wasn’t too far , here is :
http://music.download.com/vorga/3615-8503_32-100088514.html?tag=MDL_artist_tab_apsongs
and I tell you it is not my cup of tea , i don’t like cure music !
July 17th, 2006 at 8:12 pm
Craig: A little OT, but……..
“My Mom was just a hippie computer programmer” …. “She’s also ultra conservative now”
Reminded me of something:
“Any 20 year-old who isn’t a liberal doesn’t have a heart, and any 40 year-old who isn’t a conservative doesn’t have a brain.” - Winston Churchill
July 17th, 2006 at 8:19 pm
#102 sharif,
Israeli response (when they choose to respond) is always disproportionate.
You would think their enemies would get tired of the game. I suppose since Hizbollah has Allah on its side they can’t lose. Unlike the last time they lost. LOL
It is like sometimes when you put your hand in the alligator’s mouth it doesn’t bite. Sometimes it does. Would you want to play that game? Hizbollah/Hamas does. Brilliant.
Well at least people aren’t thinking much about the brilliant jihadi strategy in Iraq for a while.
1400 years of war and the Moslems are getting beaten by a bunch of upstarts and Jews. How can this be? Allah is on the side of the Muslims. Even the Party of God is getting its ass whipped. Maybe they need to purge the ungodly from their ranks. Just a suggestion. LOL
July 17th, 2006 at 8:29 pm
> The Entire peace process has always been about getting the
> land back, not establishing better relations.
The only one correct and totally wrong sentence in the origional
posting.
Yes the “peace process” was a fake from the start. Just another
zionist maneuvre to steel more pal. land and implant more master
race sqatters.
I would say, another more 10 points for you from the master race.
July 17th, 2006 at 8:43 pm
SM you da man! I have (again) never seen a more accurate statement of the problem with negotiations.
To summarize:
Jews: We want peace, and will trade some land for it.
Arabs: When we get all the land, maybe (snort!) we will consider peace for you.
Loreley, after reading your comments I am afraid I agree with others that your positions are naive. The vast majority of the Arabs are not like SM. I have no problems sitting down with someone and having an intensive discussion, or argument, or whatever, as long as we can shake hands at the end of the day, leave the argument there, and come back to it later on. I have lots of problems with inhuman acts like strapping on bomb belts, or lobbing missles at civilians on purpose, or crossing a border for purposes of murder and mayhem, or teaching children that my life and my families lives are not worth anything because we are sons of apes and pigs.
No, it is naive to think you can negotiate with such people. It is naive to think that there can be peace with such people. There is a strong revisionist thread running through their society and culture where they neglect critical elements of history and focus out of context on specific events. This is done with the explicit intent of controlling the narrative, and espousing their view, regardless of how (in)accurate it is due to missing information and context. Since they have inculcated their own children with this over several generations, the children and grandchildren know nothing else. Sadly, their narrative does not jive well with reality, and a few of them know it. I believe SM does a great job of saying precisely what reality is. Don’t always agree with his interpretation, but he is spot on with his observations of the situation.
Jews want peace, and have been searching for a formula for more than 60 years.
Arabs largely do not want peace. Just land. And dead Jews.
When they are willing to pull and actually do pull a Gandhi, and really mean it, we would be happy to lower our own defenses. Until then, and I think we are going to wait a long time, we have to be ever vigilent. We can be hopeful, but we have to be pragmatic.
They have disabused me of the notion that 2 states will work side by side in peaceful co-existence. Hamas had the opportunity to make this happen. And they completely and utterly failed. They demonstrated exactly what will happen if we pull back.
That game is over, except for all the shouting. Any Israeli government proposing this will be brought down fast. That is suicide, and they are not likely to do that, apart from the hard core lefties.
July 17th, 2006 at 8:57 pm
eee,
The rule in that neighborhood has been for as long as we have history - he who can control the land keeps it.
If a billion Muslims with all their oil money can’t dislodge a few million jews the Muslims must be weak indeed. I blame Allah for not supporting his chosen people. Even the party of God is losing.
I guess it is the Cub’s Rule. Just wait ’til next year.
A rational actor would get what ever terms he could get from the Israelis and move on. It is like the Arabs have a death wish. Must be that shaheed business. Egypt and Jordan have wized up. When will the rest of the mob catch on?
July 17th, 2006 at 9:03 pm
[...] See, we’re not so different. Anti-Israeli protests in Egypt and anti-Israeli protests in San Francisco. Both were to be protest in support of Lebanon and Palestine. [...]
July 17th, 2006 at 9:17 pm
Can you plaster that onto the morons at left wing schools like Columbia and Berkeley? It’s funny when you’re basically stating the same thing the right of center in the US is, bcs they have something called COMMON SENSE.
Mike Nargizian
July 17th, 2006 at 9:35 pm
> Jews: We want peace, and will trade some land for it.
Not jews - ” t h i e v e s “.
And - for a thief does not ” o w n ” what he has stolen, he
cannot ” t r a d e ” it for whatever.
Thieves need to be ” j a i l e d ” - not to be appeased or
to be kissed on their butts.
July 17th, 2006 at 9:35 pm
Hearing the standard Arab responses to any cogent thought on the matter is so frustrating.
“We will continue fighting until the bla bla bla Zionist bla bla bla bla bla.”
We got it, you want us dead. Fuck you.
If you gave half a shit about Palestinians you’d send them over some piping so they could have some proper sewage systems.
I don’t get why you have to kill the Great grandchildren of the Zionist invaders. A few Jews in your midst will do you some good - You’ll have some Western influence, you’ll have some capital, a few NY style delis, who knows, you might even build a sewer system one of these days.
July 17th, 2006 at 9:38 pm
> A rational actor would get what ever terms he could get
> from the Israelis and move on.
No. oh moron - you cannot have “terms” with notorious fascists.
Buy a map moron - look how the hebrew parasites managed
to absorb more and more arab land from 48 to 06.
Negotiations with a nation of beggars, thieves and murderers
is ” f u t i l e “.
July 17th, 2006 at 9:40 pm
> We got it, you want us dead. Fuck you.
No - go home friend and fuck yourself.
Or become used to eat sand and live in/from the sewer, because
that will happen to you or your offspring one day.
July 17th, 2006 at 9:42 pm
I think The Isreali’s have a good strategy on this one. Carve off a strip of Lebanon wide enough to keep the douchbags from firing rockets into their cities. I mean, that’s not much to ask of your neighboring nation “don’t fire rockets into our cities, please.”
Then, if Lebanon want’s its land back, they’re going to have to boot Hezbolla out, if they can. Until that time, Isreal will be a good steward for their formerly sovereign soil.
Oh, and +1 to what has already been said about CN gas and depleted-U.
July 17th, 2006 at 9:43 pm
Fortunately, I have a home…and a sewer system. And thankfully so does every Jew in the world. Because we actually give a shit about our own people, there are no Jewish refugees. How long have your Palestinian brothers been refugees?
July 17th, 2006 at 9:43 pm
Thank you for a great and insightful post, Sandmonkey.
Your commenter who thinks that the left she/he knows is not like the one you show in Egypt obviously knows nothing of the left in Britain. We have our wonderful “Respect” hard left political party, headed by George Galloway (famous for saying to Saddam Hussein “Sir, we admire your courage, your bravery, Sir, we salute you). They are an alliance of Trotskyites with Muslim Brotherhood-linked Islamists, and I’d say they’d fit perfectly into the demonstration you showed.
July 17th, 2006 at 9:44 pm
Looks like “eee” chewed through his leather restraints again.
Poly want a thorazine?
July 17th, 2006 at 9:50 pm
SM, I must indeed congratulate you for such an honest analysis. Our side is so blinded by hatred and anger. This is probably one of your best posts ever. Big respect bro… Every single Muslim and Arab in the world should probably read it.
July 17th, 2006 at 9:51 pm
An excellent post!
July 17th, 2006 at 9:52 pm
Sometimes I am SO embarrassed to be an Arab. OMG!
July 17th, 2006 at 9:58 pm
M.Simon #64
“Golda Mier said something like: the wars will be over when Arabs love their children as much as we love ours.”
Actually, what Golda Meir said was that there will be peace when Arab mothers love their children more than they hate Jews.
Just trying to keep the historical record on Golda accurate…
July 17th, 2006 at 10:11 pm
eee #113
“Buy a map moron - look how the hebrew parasites managed
to absorb more and more arab land from 48 to 06.”
Whoa, dude. Put the swords down, and review history.
1948 UN partition plan. Jews accepted, arabs rejected.
1949 Israel gains land in a defensive war started by the Arabs.
1967 Israel gains land in a defensive war started by the Arabs.
1973 War started by the Arabs. No change in land.
1978 Israel returns land to Egypt in exchange for peace.
1982 Israel gains land in a defensive war started by the PLO, then based in Lebanon. Retains land for defensive purposes, but makes no claim on it.
1993-2000 Israel gradually withdraws from most of the West Bank and Gaza, gets violence in exchange.
2000 Israel withdraws from Lebanese territory. Lebanon is supposed to disarm Hizbollah, but doesn’t.
2002 (I think) Israel reoccupies West Bank and Gaza. Reduction in violence.
2005 Israel withdraws from Gaza, reaps violence.
2006 More violence from HA and Gaza.
So, to review, despite repeated attempts by various groups of Arabs to push the Jews into the sea, Israel has returned most of the territory it has acquired in wars it didn’t start.
With all due repect, you’re not supported by the facts.
So put down the sword, please, and stop believing your own propaganda.
July 17th, 2006 at 10:31 pm
# eee wrote
> Jews: We want peace, and will trade some land for it.
Not jews - ” t h i e v e s “.
Nope, not even close.
And - for a thief does not ” o w n ” what he has stolen, he
cannot ” t r a d e ” it for whatever.
We can play tit-for-tat if you would like for eternity. Or we can change the dynamic. Loreley believes the dynamic is already changed. I do not. You believe (incorrectly, but its not my job to disabuse you of any incorrect notions) that land was stolen.
Thieves need to be ” j a i l e d ” - not to be appeased or
to be kissed on their butts.
Ah… Ok. Murderers and terrorists and all of their supporters need to be glowing smoking holes in the ground.
No one stole anything from you or your people. Your leaders have been lying to you for decades, getting damn close to a fucking century. You have been offered ways out of the morass, been handed really good deals on fucking silver platters, and you are too stupid to see what is in front of you.
No eee, no one ever stole shit from you. Its T+60 years after this rejectionism went into overdrive. Are you ever going to accept reality? Rhetorical question, I already know the answer.
Loreley, this is PRECISELY why we cannot have peace. One side has become so inculcated with their leaders lies and misrepresentations that they are unable to come to terms with reality, history, or anything approaching a rational negotiating stance. The game is over. There are two states. Gazastan and Israel. The rest will be handled in the most realistic and pragmatic manner possible.
July 17th, 2006 at 10:42 pm
#114 eee,
As an American Jew I love to see such Arab attitudes. You will start another war and lose. More land for Israel.
If that is what you want I’m all for it. OTOH if you want peace, and can deliver on your promises, I’m all for that too. Egypt and Jordan got tired of being beaten bloody. The rest of the arab world will come around eventually. Hopefully before you do something so stupid that it gets millions of you killed.
It seems a lot of Arab governments are washing their hands of the Palis and are content to see the Israelis smack the Party of Allah.
I don’t think the Muslim world is sufficiently united for the caliphate.
It would be too funny for words if so many weren’t dying.
BTW eee, it seems like the Arab big moustache that winds up living in the sewers these days. Most unfortunate.
#121 BJ, thanks!
Muhannad,
It is folks like you and Sandmonkey that are the future of the Arab world. eee is a dinosaur. Fortunately folks like him are on the way out. Evidently they want to die fighting. Hopefully he can be accomodated with as little disruption as possible. Bless you.
July 17th, 2006 at 10:42 pm
#122 BrooklynJon
The real calculus that has emerged is
Withdraw from an area = Get attacked from that area
Hamas and the others did their best to try to construct an illusion of them forcing Israel out by arranging for terror at every step of the way. Same as the terrorists in Hizbullah in Lebanon. Now the revisionist history running around the arab world is that Hizbullah forced Israel out, and Hamas forced Israel out.
So now we face a decision on Judea and Samaria. Well, the arabs made that decision for us now, didn’t they. SM’s cartoons were spot on.
They cannot be reasoned with, negotiated with. As SM points out, its about land, and only land. Apart from being about dead Jews. Its the land.
Our issue is peace and security. Theirs is land. We had a calculus of exchange land for peace and security. And it did not work. Which means this calculus, upon which Oslo, the road map, and other failed treaties is based, is borked. Its done. Finished.
July 17th, 2006 at 10:46 pm
Gadfly…..”Carve off a strip of Lebanon wide enough to keep the douchbags from firing rockets into their cities”
Don’t want to piss on your bonfire mate but, given the range of some of those missiles, how big a strip of land are you talking about having to take and then occupy until such time as it’s no longer necessary?
I ask because I wouldn’t know myself, but I’m curious as to the answer.
July 17th, 2006 at 10:49 pm
Drima and Muhannad
All we want is peace. Thats it. Nothing more. We don’t hate you. We don’t teach our children to hate you. We think that is the worst form of child abuse one could imagine.
When enough people like you emerge to change the dynamic in the arab world, we will be waiting, as we have been for the last 60 years.
Hopefully it won’t take another 60 years.
July 17th, 2006 at 11:02 pm
Wishbone -
The range of most of Hizballah’s missiles is up to 25 kilometers. And nobody’s talking about occupation - been there, done that, got the scars. The current thought is more along the lines of scorched earth - a dead zone, to enter which means instant death. Apparently, the idea is for this zone to exist until the Lebanese government can actually take control over the South.
I am not sure whether this will come to pass at all… too complicated. Depends on the willingness of the “international community” to commit peace-keepers in the South of Lebanon until such time as the Lebanese government is strong enough to take over. This in itself depends, of course, on the extent to which Israel will crush Hizballah and the willingness of the Lebanese to mop up afterwards.
Doesn’t look good… but Hizballah will be crushed, one way or another - Israel is fully committed to this now.
July 17th, 2006 at 11:03 pm
Kranky - it won’t take 60 years, bro. More like to 600, if current progress and history are anything to judge by.
July 17th, 2006 at 11:11 pm
BrooklynJon, M.Simon and Kranky,
Just want to let you know that the best way to deal with eee is to try to ignore him/her/it. You won’t change eee’s mind. eee is a Jew hater, baiter and basher.
July 17th, 2006 at 11:22 pm
#122 - actually, the ‘67 war was started by Israel — well, the combat phase — because Egypt blocaded the Straights of Tiran, began massing Armies in the Sinai, and had been making “bellicose rhetric” (to quote a British military historian — rhetric has 2 syllables :-> ) about annihilating Israel. Israel said, the Hell with that! Almost everything I’ve read and watched indicates that Nasser had no real intention of invading — at least at the start — but got carried away by the events he started. Israel had no way of knowing that he was just beating off into the sand. 1973 was clearly started by Egypt.
Israel sure used to have some kick ass generals — notably Dayan and Sharon. There’s a book about the Yom Kippur War that really gets into their personalities and interactions. They acted a lot like my mom’s side of the family (the Jews fresh off the boat) — they bickered and hated each other, but pulled together for the common good. I have a feeling you’d never see that kind of interaction — political and strategic — in Arab countries. One general mouths off and he gets shot. That’s partially why Arabs keep getting their butts kicked. (Sorry SM)
BTW, where’s that damn eee filter?
July 17th, 2006 at 11:35 pm
The Raccoon-
Thanks for your answer. Seems a right mess you have on your plate there. I just hope the “international community” has the sense to show you the commitment you need to try and get yourselves some peace there. Heaven knows, Israel bloody deserves it and I hope you get it sooner rather than later.
July 18th, 2006 at 12:00 am
> As an American Jew I love to see such Arab attitudes.
> You will start another war and lose. More land for Israel.
First of all - oh moron from amnesia - you are far more arab than
me.
Then - oh worshipper of arab blood and soil - I understand, that
a jew likes jewish fascism - zionism. Most fascists like to play
the master race role. Like to steal other peoples resources, like
to deport and like to kill them - and really like to defecate on an
untermensch - makem feel superior.
But - oh moron - your brothers live an arab country. They are sur-
rounded by arabs - far more arabs untermenschs than you the
master race.
Your nazi-designs will simply not work in palestine. You cannot
build gas-chambers to kill the arab. pal. and even then, millions
remain which will try again and again to wipe the jewish racist
gangster state from the map.
This time the Hezbollah has neither long range rockets, nor they
have nukes. But this will change too.
So you’re plan to copy Adolf Hitler - to exterminate the population
of Syria and Iraq - replace them by your sqattters - is doomed to fail.
As soon as the american empire falls, you will flushed in the sewer.
That’s the future of the only “jewish-only” democracy on earth.
July 18th, 2006 at 12:09 am
Raccoon,
Care to join?
http://www.newprofile.org/default.asp?language=en
July 18th, 2006 at 12:27 am
eee-
Not that I’m going to join you in your endless succession of verbal tirades, but here’s something for you to consider after your last outburst….
http://www.nysun.com/article/36110?page_no=1
Meaning?……..Sonny…..You’re on your own!………
July 18th, 2006 at 12:54 am
Twosret - are you serious? Why should I join a bunch of people who are suicidally deluded, disconnected from reality, full of self-loathing and psychotic fantasies?
I totally and wholeheartedly disagree with most of the stuff in their charter… theirs are the words of a self-appointed elite, getting a boost to their sick sense of self-righteousness on the corpses of the rest of us. I feel contaminated by having read this.
July 18th, 2006 at 1:00 am
Sandmonkey,
Quick note (can’t read all the comments above):
You read the American left all wrong. The American left apologizes for jihad left and right. The American left idolizes terrorism and cooks up conspiracy theories about 9/11.
A.N.S.W.E.R., Not In Our Name, United for Peace and Justice, Michael Moore, Code Pink, Cindy Sheehan - to name the most obvious examples.
-JMK
July 18th, 2006 at 1:08 am
Sing after me Raccoon, Shanti Shanti Shanti……..
July 18th, 2006 at 1:27 am
And BTW, Twosret, you still didn’t answer my question from a… number of days ago. I am not good with times. But it’s there and you said you will answer it.
July 18th, 2006 at 1:33 am
I am perfectly calm - I just utterly disagree with these people and find their position dangerous and demented.
Maybe they should join me - http://www.pharsh.com/
July 18th, 2006 at 1:37 am
Also, check out what a war (and war coverage should look like):
http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ClipMediaID=164714&
The latest official operation of Pharsh Militia.
July 18th, 2006 at 2:38 am
I didn’t forget but you should know that time is not on my side these days
July 18th, 2006 at 2:42 am
Oh. Blimey. That bad?
BTW, you really oughtta check out the war clip :0
July 18th, 2006 at 2:44 am
What is Blair doing buying a sweater for Bush as a present? Is that a G-8 tradition?
July 18th, 2006 at 2:46 am
well, reading more about Eris I can tell that Eris and Twosret have something in common.
July 18th, 2006 at 2:56 am
eee, I thought you were moving back to lybia. Did you correct the spelling on your lame blog yet? I hope you get cancer.
July 18th, 2006 at 3:04 am
Thank you for such an insightful and honest post. It was a pleasure to read. And it makes me very happy to know that there are arabs that do not want the distruction of Israel and that do want to live in peace with jews. Thank you.
July 18th, 2006 at 3:08 am
Good article. I second your thoughts, SM. The most frustrating thing about the Middle East debate is the sheer amount of double-talk surrounding it.
First of all - oh moron from amnesia….
….then - oh worshipper of arab blood and soil….
…but - oh moron
Let me add one more ‘oh’:
Uh-oh. eee-bot is at it again. Danger Will Robinson! Danger! LoL.
Interesting stories:
Egypt or Afghanistan? Apostates arrested in Egypt:
http://www.chiesa.espressonline.it/dettaglio.jsp?id=7000&eng=y
Political correctness run amok for the 9,532 time; Canada decides that simply being a terrorist isn’t a good enough reason to keep you from flying:
http://ace.mu.nu/archives/186561.php
July 18th, 2006 at 3:14 am
Nomade, savez-vous qui est ce type « avocat de paix » ? la curiosité tue le chat
July 18th, 2006 at 3:27 am
Shimon Perez has it right: “Hezbollah serves no purpose whatsoever”.
“They will lose because they are wrong”.
Hezbollah IS wrong - what do these people do other than produce dead civilians upon whose entrails they can festively prance? It is an armed propaganda/media tool, and should be judged as such. US and international media are hypnotized by these death cults (which includes Hamas), but why should citizens of the world be?. Hezbollah - old news, destructive news, unwelcome news. The world is awakening to its lecherous tendancies, and bravo. Why doesn’t Mr. Amadinnerjacket turn HIS government over to them, instead of expecting Lebanon to embrace the depravity his country has created.
Israel will not be crushed. France may wish it so, Iran may wish it so, Palestinians may wish it so, but Israel will not be crushed.
July 18th, 2006 at 3:29 am
‘They view us as if we were a headache. We view them as if they are a cancer…’
“…And this is why there will never really be any peace in the middle-east.” The Sandmonkey compares “Lefts.”…
July 18th, 2006 at 4:39 am
“One bone I pick is the line about the US left being anti-war. While that generally may be true, I have noticed that even they have quite the soft spot for the the Palestinian ‘resistance.’ ” - that has unfortunately been the case here in the US. Many leftists in the US identify peace on Earth with death to Jews. Although fighting for freedom is a noble cause, I see that some of the Palestinean fight is for principle. Real peace solution can be achieved only after people on both sides of the equation realize that freedom of Palestine does not have to mean destruction of Israel.
P.S. Thank you for your blog. The mere fact that people like you exist, shows that there may be a chance for peace.
July 18th, 2006 at 5:16 am
Dan:
Yeah, the Left has always had a soft spot for Islamists and for Communists like Castro, Chavez, and Che.
The Left is only against wars launched by avowed believers in capitalism, democracy, and western civilization.
Just like the Left is all for free speech and opposed to censorship, except when protecting the values of political correctness and multiculturalism from their opponents on the right. Then they jump on the bandwagon on needing to be “sensitive” about peoples’ feelings.
News:
Richard Landes responds to an Arab blogger:
http://www.theaugeanstables.com/2006/07/17/the-dangers-of-honor-response-to-omar/
July 18th, 2006 at 5:43 am
I am all for peace with Israel. Together we have a lot of potential. Sign me up man!!
July 18th, 2006 at 5:54 am
alright alright we’ll give you peace, just withdraw to the 1967 lines, return all the arab POWs, stop bombing our land, free occupied land.
inshort wash your hands from all the blood on them, is that so much to ask ?
July 18th, 2006 at 6:05 am
this one is for eeek
And for every one else I’d say things are looking up. The Arabs are siding with Israel on this one.
===========================
http://www.nysun.com/article/36110?page_no=1
Rarely have I seen such an uprising, indeed an intifada, against those little turbaned, bearded men across the Muslim landscape as the one that took place last week. The leader of Hezbollah, Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, received a resounding “no” to pulling 350 million Arabs into a war with Israel on his clerical coattails.
The collective “nyet” was spoken by presidents, emirs, and kings at the highest level of government in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Bahrain, Qatar, Jordan, Morocco, and at the Arab League’s meeting of 22 foreign ministers in Cairo on Saturday. But it was even louder from pundits and ordinary people.
Perhaps the most remarkable and unexpected reaction came from Saudi Arabia, whose foreign minister, Prince Saud Al-Faisal, said bluntly and publicly that Hezbollah’s decision to cross the Lebanese border, attack Israel, and kidnap its soldiers has left the Shiite group on its own to face Israel. The unspoken message here was, “We hope they blow you away.”
July 18th, 2006 at 6:23 am
ahmad,
The time to go back to the ‘67 borders was ‘68 or ‘69. The israelis begged for peace then. Offered everything won in the war (excepting Jerusalem) in return for peace.
It is 40 years and two wars and two intifadas later. Take what ever deal is offered and be grateful the Israelis don’t ask for reparations.
Its over.
Time for the Arabs to make like Germany and Japan post WW2. Forget your demands. You lost. So what? I’m sure the Israelis would be glad to do business with you if you let them. That would be better for all concerned.
July 18th, 2006 at 6:29 am
Israel will not be crushed. France may wish it so, Iran may wish it so, Palestinians may wish it so, but Israel will not be crushed.
still at it ? did you know we are “jews” too ?
check the “pew pollls” : http://pewglobal.org/reports/images/253-11.gif
if you are not too lazy , then try too create a site like : http://quelleconne.com
July 18th, 2006 at 6:35 am
Twosret, je ne sais pas, un francophile peut-etre, c’est si rare !
July 18th, 2006 at 6:48 am
Inspired with your words, sir, happy to know that arabs like you exist. Wish you grand succes, happiness and so on.
(Russian jew)
July 18th, 2006 at 7:31 am
SM, cant you call for a peacful demonstration in Cairo?
I am sure that there are many silent arab people who feels like those Israeli’s in the picture. We do have peaceful people as well.
Why dont we have signs like :
“No more death for land”.
“Arabs are humans, Jews are humans, let us live togather”
“Son’s of Abraham ‘Dont kill each other’, you are BROTHERS’”
“Dont let your extremists and ours rule, let us take over, and rule with love and compassion”
July 18th, 2006 at 8:12 am
It/s a good idea, but I think you’d have a problem if you were holding up signs sympathizing with Jews in the middle of Cairo. I once was stopped by some guy on the street who was insulting me because he thought I was hanging out with someone who is Danish.
July 18th, 2006 at 8:21 am
@eee Says:
>First of all - oh moron from amnesia - you are far more arab than
>me.
>Then - oh worshipper of arab blood and soil - I understand, that
>a jew likes jewish fascism - zionism. Most fascists like to play
>the master race role….
This stuff is too good.. I love it when the schizophrenics stop taking their lithium. to good.. man that’s funny!!
July 18th, 2006 at 8:23 am
And today, at least 59 people got killed in an car bomb explosion in Iraq.
July 18th, 2006 at 8:24 am
The Observer: cousins, not brothers
July 18th, 2006 at 9:19 am
Ops, you are right Suzanne
July 18th, 2006 at 9:33 am
http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/5628/lebanonjv2.png
July 18th, 2006 at 9:53 am
@nomad, it’s close to the truth, except that there are also Lebanese of course who dont give a fuck about lebanon, but do concerning Hezbollah. In other words: the person with the yellow shirt is missing in the picture.
July 18th, 2006 at 10:34 am
This is also worthy of some comments:
Israeli children sends gifts to Lebanese children:
http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2006/07/17/photo-of-the-day-israeli-kids-sends-gifts-of-love-to-arab-kids/
July 18th, 2006 at 10:39 am
SM, the more I read your nonsensical writing, the more I’m convinced of two things, either you are an orthodox Jew, or heavily dependent on some mind altering drugs. The way you put your own country, and other Arab down is just unreal.
July 18th, 2006 at 10:41 am
Abdel-Karim, cheap propaganda. Of course the children did not deserve to die; but civilians die in a war. It’s a fact. A horrible fact. But it is not possible to go beyond this fact. Even when you try hard not to hit civillians.
That’s a fact.
July 18th, 2006 at 10:42 am
persona_non_grata, it is actually Sandmonkey who gives me some hope for the Arab world. At least he is not the one filled with hatred (only disappointment) because the other person is Jew or Christian or a non-believer or of another sectarian division with islam.
He’s an example.
July 18th, 2006 at 10:45 am
“civilians die in a war. It’s a fact. A horrible fact. But it is not possible to go beyond this fact. Even when you try hard not to hit civillians.
That’s a fact. ”
What she’s trying to say is that it’s a fact.
July 18th, 2006 at 10:55 am
@Vince, maybe only Einsteins fourth World War wherein we fight each other with sticks, will prevent civilians to die
July 18th, 2006 at 10:57 am
What the f@ck is going around here?
All the Israeli commentators I heard at the first day of the war were sure about this: Olmert wants to “act crazy” to deter future attacks, and cement his standing in internal politics. Within 48 hrs there will be huge international pressure for an immediate cease fire. HA apparently had the same idea when it started it all… I too confess to have believed that. Indeed, in that first day France, Russia and other countries called for an immediate cease fire and an end to the totally disproportional Israeli response. You all remember that, don’t you?
Then they had a talk in the G8 summit and gave their statement. The channel 10 and channel 22 commentators were astounded: No talk of proportionality and no mention of cease fire or any kind of time-line. They are all signed on it. Including Russia and France etc. Lebanese bloggers raised hell.
Here is my theory: Iran broke a sacred international taboo. It’s not about respecting the sovereignty of Israel or Lebanon, kidnapping or destabilizing. What is the Worst nightmare of world leaders? It is well defined: Nukes in the hand of “terrorists” i.e. of small non-state players. I think Iran got too close to that with HA. They took a guerrilla group and gave it top-of-the-line nation-state-level weapons. Silkworm ground to sea missiles. Long range ground to ground missiles (like the Zilzal) etc. And now they are developing nukes…
your thoughts?
July 18th, 2006 at 11:51 am
Yair -
We have green light to destroy Hizballah because this is a preperation for WW3 and a message to Iran. Israel is destroying an Iranian powerbase in Lebanon (close to Syria, where some of the fighting will take place) - every Hizballah trooper killed now is one that the Coalition will not have to kill themselves when they act. And every missile fired at Israel is a missile that will not be fired at an American base…
And then there’s the thing with a change in common perception, which is changing from support for terrorism to something different.
July 18th, 2006 at 12:01 pm
[...] sraeli children, of course, will do this in order to relax from the tension of being constantly bombarded, where around 800 rockets have already hit Israel without differentiating between blood and blood. Of course, people get killed from both sides. I actually disagree with the toll of 217 civilians given by Lebanese bloggers and i believe that most of these deaths were Hizbuallah related. Or at least i want to believe it. However, i do think that we need responsibility, but i still can’t agree with Sandmonkey’s comment that the Lebanese left does not want peace. [...]
July 18th, 2006 at 2:15 pm
Yair & Racoon, this design was planned, evident,, and so oil companies will get more benefits since oil prices are getting higher, I mean, russian & us ones, not speaking of ours in Iran, because they will get invalided, as they did in Irak. there must have been an accord between the G8 leaders to share who will do what… anyways it will be a oil wwIII , for each one in each country will have to pay the higher price
July 18th, 2006 at 2:50 pm
and may-be part in this project, Hezbolla attacks, Israel replys, big mess, so Syria can think of a coming back in Liban, they don’t want to destroy Israel, just have Liban as a nice colony, they don’t like hamas either and don’t care of the palestinian cause,so leaves Israel do what it wants, and Iran will appease Hezbolla, so that americans will have to recognize mollah are a great deal in ME and sit for uranium discussion and issues in Irak war
July 18th, 2006 at 2:58 pm
Nomad - this is how Syria and Iran are hoping this will play out… but I think both Israel and the nebulous international community have some surprises in store for them.
Such as a free, democratic and safe Lebanon.
July 18th, 2006 at 3:09 pm
One meager sign of progress: You people are talking to one another, rather than shooting at one another. It’s a start.
July 18th, 2006 at 3:19 pm
yeah, but Putin is with mollahs, then a new cold war starting …
July 18th, 2006 at 4:21 pm
Nomad -
Putin has his own problems. Chechnia, the fact that he’s systematically crushing the nascent Russian democracy, and the fact that his economic policies will not hold for long before a massive collapse.
He’ll have to pick a side, and I hope he picks the right one - otherwise nukes will fly.
July 18th, 2006 at 4:40 pm
I think you underevaluate Putin, he has enough money coming from gaz and oil, and as far I know he paid back all his credits,he can start a new deal with army, and the way he is leading Russia is a success for an ancient KGB mensa spirit, beside Bush’s one is a joke
July 18th, 2006 at 5:12 pm
Nomad -
Possibly you’re right. Russia and China are the wild cards in this game, and I think nobody is sure which way they’ll go. Both Russia and China can either lose or win big time if there is war; question is, which way will they wager?
Personally, I believe they will go for middle-ground - no commitment to anything, wait for the rest of the world to blast itself to bits and then scavenge the pieces.
But then again, Iran is a clear and present danger to Russia - Putin must understand that an apocalypse might wipe out Russia, too, and that strengthening Islamism will eventually seriously harm Russian interests.
And China… that’s a whole different kettle of fish. The internal unrest vs imperialistic tendencies there makes for a very unpredictable situation, especially when we have North Korea and Japan in the picture. China will probably stay put, nurture North Korea, and try to take over Japan when everyone is busy lobbing nukes at each other. Or it might just sit tight and then scavenge.
July 18th, 2006 at 5:14 pm
#177 Racoon,
That is how I see it as well. This is a spoiling attack.
Iran will not be able to use HA as a threat when the war on Iran comes. It is why the USA has given Israel the green light and no deadline.
http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/2006/07/spoiler-attack.html
July 18th, 2006 at 6:31 pm
yeah, so it’s time to drink our left good bottles of wine
July 18th, 2006 at 6:34 pm
Nomad - and to smoke our best weed
Carpe Diem - the Raccoonish motto. And it’s most evident in Israel, especially in Tel Aviv. I love this city
July 18th, 2006 at 7:55 pm
I’d love to be in one of the cities that are being rocketed. Nothing better than a “tonight we celebrate, for tomorrow we all may die” booze up.
July 18th, 2006 at 8:26 pm
Gadfly - oh yeah. The best sex I have ever had was when I was home after a month at the front… nothing like the realization of impending doom to make one enjoy life
July 18th, 2006 at 8:29 pm
S’not worth it, though. Better play Russian Roulette or something… or just start doing really extreme sports. Ever heard of avalanche riding?
July 19th, 2006 at 3:00 am
Think about this “outside the box” for a second. Palestine elected a government that consists of a terrorist organization started in the 80’s whos’ credo CLEARLY states that it calls for the erradication of all Jews. It DOES NOT call for peace in any way……
‘The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and
kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the
rocks and trees will cry out: ‘O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind
me, come and kill him.’ (Article 7)
And ESPECIALLY after the rise and fall of Nazi Germany, people are surprised they are taking a massive “first strike” approach to this “government”.
July 19th, 2006 at 6:11 am
DazzlinDino -
Facts? Reason? Truth? What’s wrong with you, why do you bring these obtacles to true progress up?
July 19th, 2006 at 7:39 am
A depressing epiphany
Sometime between when I went to bed last night and when I woke up this morning, a fellow blogger rocked my world. She did this by the simple act of sending me a link to an Egyptian blogger who calls
July 19th, 2006 at 3:17 pm
http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Colbert-FOX-WWII.mov
WWIII or WWWIV that is the question !
oops, I am out
July 20th, 2006 at 1:24 am
A very intelligent and thoughtful post SM.
July 21st, 2006 at 9:30 pm
Why do you expect Arabs to welcome the Zionist project and be eager to have warm relation with its fruit that was built on the suffering of thousand human beings that happen to be Arabs!
Unless there’s oil under the Pali’s land, the answer should be readily apparent. Economics.
One generation of ernest economic cooperation and the Pali’s could be enjoying a much better standard of living.
July 23rd, 2006 at 8:07 pm
Just to comment on M. Simon’s comment; I’d argue Germany and Japan were the great victors from WWII. Look at those countries today.
July 24th, 2006 at 12:46 pm
A Culture Of Death Vs. A Culture Of Peace
As you read this, Israel is carrying the fight for all of the West.
July 24th, 2006 at 9:39 pm
Hmm Personally I’d think it would be hillarious if the UN by some miracle got China to supply a couple regiments of the PLA as the “peacekeeping” force in Southern Lebanon…
can you imagine the pre-eminent… “shoot first - ask questions later/ human rights violator” military who’s founder wrote the book on Guerilla warfare policing Hezbollah… My bet is Hezbollah would be quickly wishing for the good’ol days when all they had to deal with was the IDF…
but anyway… I was thinking of an interesting solution today… I come from a part of Western Canada that is currently chornically short of unskilled labor, and has over 7 Billion in budgetary surpluses… Wouldn’t it be interesting to kill several birds with one stone and offer any Palestinian refugee a house, a Job and full citizenship in Calgary in exchange for renoucing violence and hate and becoming a contribuiting member, with a chance for his childern to have an educated future in a stable, proserous democracy on the opposite side of the globe.
I wonder how many would accept such an offer?
probably not many
July 26th, 2006 at 12:45 pm
Dude, I’m Israeli, and I’d take that offer in a snap.
July 28th, 2006 at 4:27 pm
[...] There is an interesting article on “Rantings of a Sandmonkey” that looks at what he describes as “Our Left, Their Left.” In this article, Sandmonkey compares the leftists from the Arab world who are opposing US and Israeli actions in the Middle East and US anti-war activists. In the Arab world, the anti-US groups are in favor of obliterating Israel and the US. In the US, anti-war activists oppose all war. The difference in this attitude (and I am simplifying what he said) lead him ultimately to this conclusion: I think that the Israeli want peace with us because they don’t want their lives disrupted. They don’t want to have the IDF soldiers fighting in Gaza, rockets coming into their towns from Hamas or having to go to wars against Hezbollah to get their soldiers back. I think they want peace because they want their peace of mind. They view us as if we were a headache. We view them as if they are a cancer. [...]
July 29th, 2006 at 7:24 pm
This article is brillint. We will build peace with guys like you. Kol Hakavod, as we say in Israel.
July 30th, 2006 at 8:11 am
In a letter to the New York Times in 1948, Albert Einstein warned us about the racist, ultranationalist, facist and Nazi intentions of Israel’s terrorist founders, specifically the terrorist Menachim Begin and his terrorist party.
The terrorist was subsequently elected by an enthusiastic, racist Israeli population.
Israel, in 2001, maintains racial purity laws, ethcic cleansing pogroms, and “birthrights” allowing “chosen ones” -regradless of where they were born and raised - to return to the “promised land.” Palestinaisn, on the other hand, are not entitled to return to where they were born.
This is the Judeo-Nazi state that Albert Einstein warned us about in 1948.
Don’t believe me - see for yourself:
http://www.globalwebpost.com/farooqm/study_res/einstein/nyt_letter.html
Judeo-Nazis inhabit an imaginary non-secular world of cartoon-categories, in which the “chosen ones” are “lions,” Arabs are “sand-niggers” and other goyim are “stupid monkies”
- hence the title of this demented, racist blog.
July 31st, 2006 at 3:38 pm
You really crack me up, Bernie.
If you had any sense of intellectual honesty you might mention that the same racist, ultranationalist, facist Terrorist was in charge of signing the first ever peace treaty with an Arab country, *after* giving back - for the second time (!) - all land conquered in a war started by the other side!
What would life be without its little ironies, I ask you.
And are you telling me that Albert Einstein was a liberal left-wing activist? I’d be shocked and amazed *if* everybody with a grammar-school education didn’t already know that fact. Next thing you’ll be trying to tell us he was against using the Bomb he helped create….
You also might be interested to know that the disgusting term “Judeo-Nazis” was invented and first used by an Israeli orthodox Jewish philosopher. And he didn’t even have to say it anonymously on a Blog! Surprised? Well, that’s what happens when you allow people to have more than one opinion and even voice it. It’s called “freedom of speech” and it’s apparently all the rage now in the civilized world.
By the way, wouldn’t it be funny if any of the enlightened members of the Arab League had as many Jews in all of their governments combined as the racist, “apartheid” Israel has Arab members in its Knesset?
I feel for you, Bernie. I really do. It must be hard growing up, being told so many contradictory lies and trying to defend your indoctrination against obvious truth. But keep up the good work! Until people like SM make peace plausible, people like you are what enable us to realize why we must continue fighting.
August 1st, 2006 at 8:36 pm
[...] בדין על המצב (http://www.haayal.co.il/thread?rep=397846) באתר האייל הקורא (http://www.haayal.co.il) אסתי הפנתה לפוסט בבלוג המצרי קוף החול (http://www.sandmonkey.org/2006/07/17/our-left-their-left/) על הפגנות…קידום אתריםקידום אתרים [...]
August 4th, 2006 at 8:57 am
I feel for you, Dr Avi.
Every spokesNazi for Zion appearing on Australian television this week
was a “chosen one” with a British, American or white-South-African accent.
Palestinians who were born in Palestine are not entitled to return to where they were born,
but Brookly born mass-murdering “chosen” psychopaths of Jehov_h
are entitled to a skydaddy-covenented and state-sanctioned “right to return” to where they have never been in the first place.
“chosen one”
Jewish Blood for Jewish Soil
Racial Purity Laws
pogroms, ethnic cleansing..
..this is Y’Sra’El:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
But thus shall ye deal with them;
ye shall DESTROY THEI ALTARS,
and BREAK DOWN THEIR IMAGES,
and CUT DOWN THEIR GROVES,
and BURN THEIR GRAVEN IMAGES WITH FIRE.
For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God:
the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be
A SPECIAL PEOPLE unto himself,
ABOVE ALL PEOPLE
that are upon the face of the earth.
-Deuteronomy 7:5-6
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/dt/7.html
No Arab ever called me “goyim”, Dr Avi.
August 4th, 2006 at 1:10 pm
Bernadotte - So much hate. tsk tsk. Can’t be good for the heart.
August 6th, 2006 at 10:42 am
Haha Bernie Baby, I’d say something about people who live in glass houses, but you obviously support rock throwing…
As you probably know, according to articles 5 and 7 of the official Palestinian State Constitution, most Palestinian legal issues defer (by law) to Muslim religious Law (Shari’a), including the rights of “Dhimmis” (i.e. non-muslims). If there is any doubt about the significance of this, the Quran sums it up nicely:
“…Allah ’s Apostle said, ” I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,’ and whoever says, None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,’ his life and property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to forgive him.)” (Hadith 4:52:196)
Now I’m sure you’re dying to counter this with more bible quotes, so let me save you the trouble by stating that for better or for worse, Israeli civil law is *not* directly based on Halacha (Jewish religious law), but secular by nature. Which means, for example:
“The Holy Places shall be protected from desecration and any other violation and from anything likely to violate the freedom of access of the members of the different religions to the places sacred to them or their feelings with regard to those places.” (Israeli Protection of Holy Places Law, 1967)”
Now just so we get things clear about “Apartheid”:
Subject | Religion | Israel | Palestine |
————————————————-
Voting | Jew | Yes | No |
| Muslim | Yes | Yes |
| Christian | Yes | No |
————————————————-
Being | Jew | Yes | No |
Elected | Muslim | Yes | Yes |
| Christian | Yes | No |
————————————————-
Own | Jew | Yes | No |
Property | Muslim | Yes | Yes |
| Christian | Yes | No |
————————————————-
Religious | Jew | Yes | No |
Freedom | Muslim | Yes | Yes |
| Christian | Yes | No |
————————————————-
References: http://www.law.emory.edu/IFL/legal/palestine.htm, http://jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/000500.php, http://www.dhimmi.com/dhimmi_overview.htm,
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/freedom.html
——————————————————-
…And if you want to trade Bible quotes, you can find alot of the Quran sense of humor at this site:
http://www.blessedcause.org/Quran.htm
Here’s one of my favorites:
” The punishment of those who pit themselves against Allah and His Messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement, except those who repent before you have them in your power” (Quran 5:33-34)
Have a great day.
September 13th, 2006 at 9:53 am
[...] Lisa posted yesterday her coverage of the peace demonstration by our leftists here in Tel Aviv. The Sandmonkey posted about the leftest demonstration he attended –one he thought was to be a peace demonstration–here –and drew quite the contrast between them. Check them out; warning if you already depressed don’t check the SM’s out. [...]
March 2nd, 2007 at 1:50 pm
Well, how do Arab lives matter, anyway, if the majority of Arabs are illiterate, uneducated, fanatical and violent and of no conceivable benefit, to the global economy or the world at large? What do Arabs have to offer to the world anyway (besides oil)?
May 17th, 2007 at 4:53 am
just for the historical record….. remmember what Golda Meir was saying: “there will be no peace when Arab mothers hate Jews more than they love their own children”.
How that’s plain and true.
Try thinking about that.
May 31st, 2008 at 3:00 pm
Left? Right? It is a religion that colors the psychology of a people.
The problem lays in political Islam. Oh yeah, they hate Israel and wish to make Jihad against it. They also hate America. But Islam is not truly a religion, it is a political ideology more akin to communism or fascism. They do not just wish to destroy the Jews and the Christians who have “persecuted” them for generations. They wish to conquer the entire world, all must submit to Islam if they want peace. I can support this assertion loosely by asking a few questions. What happened to the ancient Hindu and buddhist cultures in Afghanistan? They are gone. Wiped out by Islam. What crimes did Armenia commit that lead to the Armenian holocaust? What gives Muslims the audacity to demand sharia law in FRANCE? In the Hindu-Cu-sh territories in India what magical title deed do Muslims have that gives them rights to the land? What happened to the Byzantine Empire? Why did the guy who runs the mosque in my home town say that the “holy warriors must wage Jihad in America to implement sharia”? The Muslim terrorists in the philippines… what gives them the impetus to persecute Filipinos? How about Indonesia? Should that be Muslim land to? If all of Israel submitted to Islam would Europe be next? My friend went to London, he heard the morning call to prayer standing in Trafalgar Square… I can hear the morning call to prayer in large cities in Midwest America….
This is not a Arab problem. I have met Arabs who are christian, Jewish, communist, mercenary… whatever. Not one of them wants to kill me for being an infidel ( a title I wear with honor ) I’m also a Kafir and proud of it.
This is an Islam problem. The religion needs reform. The theocracies and the kleptocracies need to be abolished. I have little hope that Moslems world wide have the bravery and temerity to reform the religion.
SSG
June 15th, 2008 at 12:48 pm
[...] Sandmonkey has some gloomy thoughts today about some of the differences between Israel and Egypt—in Israel, peace marchers [...]
June 17th, 2008 at 2:49 pm
[...] Sandmonkey has some gloomy thoughts today about some of the differences between Israel and Egypt—in Israel, peace marchers [...]
October 18th, 2008 at 8:22 am
greetings
June 18th, 2009 at 10:56 pm
[...] Sandmonkey has some gloomy thoughts today about some of the differences between Israel and Egypt—in Israel, peace marchers [...]