![](”http://static.flickr.com/44/116364022_14e11279b9_o.jpg")
Wednesday, 19 Jul 2006
The Lebanese Sunnis, christians and Druze have been complaining about Hezbollah's weapons for some time now, but have always feared attempting to disarm it directly because they didn't want to start another civil war, with all of the potential death and destruction it may bring Lebanon. Now, since Death and destruction are already here because of Hezbollah's weapons and actions, and it's not likely to get worse than this, are you now going to demand to directly disarm them once and for all? What, exactly, at this point, do you have to lose? Is this honestly any better than another lebanese civil war?
Just wondering..
July 19th, 2006 at 5:21 pm
S.M.
Don’t you think that’s going to be a rather difficult chore, with all the “solidarity” and “unity” going around?
July 19th, 2006 at 5:34 pm
I agree with SoCal. It seems that the Arab world is so busy showing “solidarity” that no one stops to question or debate. The fear of death and destruction wasn’t the real reason no one kicked Hezballah out, if other people posting are any indication. Not that the Lebanese agreed, but that they were too busy being “united” to disagree. None of that has changed, at least not that I can see. Expect more of the same.
July 19th, 2006 at 6:43 pm
If the Lebanese government told the Israeli government that they would support and assist in the destruction of Hizbullah, something tells me that this would be looked on with significant interest. Give them a few coordinates for air strikes. Make sure they are accurate.
We see what happens when Hizbullah holds a countries testicles in its grasp. Hopefully we will see this country say “enough” and work to eradicate the plague that is Hizbullah.
July 19th, 2006 at 7:33 pm
SM, and guys
it is easy to talk when you are on the outside!
Yes the destruction and death israel has cause is terrible!
But you ask what do we have to loose ? and it’s not likely to get worse than this ?
OK let’s assume all the non shi3a sects ganng up against Hizbollah, let’s assume 20% of the shi3a also gang up against hizbollah the rest of the shiaa side with their sect leaders. Same for the army let’s say 25% of th army decide they want to follow someone other than their direct leadership (during the last civil war it was about 40% i think but I am being conservative here)
Remember the demonstrations last year? 1.5 millon anti syria, 0.9 millions pro syria.
that’s about one million pro hizballah vs 3 millions anti hizbollah (assuming all those who stayed home are anti hizbollah) and then what?
we fight it to the death ? We kick them to the sea ?
And then to help us fight them israel send weapons to the militias that agree whith her? and gived them carte blanche ? and 20 years later we wonder why can’t we trust each other and live together in the same country.
I beleive in disarming them through dialogue, political pressure and acceptable compromizes (as we were trying to do) but taking it all the way to a possible civil war because “what else can we lose”, thanks i’ll take the israeli pounding for another ten days.
Call me an anonymous lebanese coward if you want maybe I’ve just seen it all before and from the pro-israely site of the previous war no less.
July 19th, 2006 at 7:35 pm
Islamism is the ascendant power in the Arab world. Oddly ennough spear headed by the Persians. Unless the West is willing to bomb Iran back about fifty years … or maybe a hundred … this shit will continue untill the West will freak out and have to nuke Iran … and maybe a couple other places. Stand by for the End of Days.
July 19th, 2006 at 7:40 pm
anonymous Lebanese coward,
****I beleive in disarming them through dialogue, political pressure and acceptable compromizes (as we were trying to do) but taking it all the way to a possible civil war because “what else can we lose”,
You don’t understand islamists. Peace is what they take advantage of when they have to … to regroup and re-arm. The only true peace with them is when YOU submit. Either you kill them or bow to them. No other choices in the long run. Would that the West would back Israel and do your dirty work for you but it doesn’t look like that will happen.
July 19th, 2006 at 7:50 pm
Hannah, not sure how to say this, but your full of shit.
“solidarity” that no one stops to question or debate.
I don’t think that solidarity is what stops them from questioning or debating. It may be the case for some Arab countries, but definately not representative of all of them, let alone the Lebanese.
“The fear of death and destruction wasn’t the real reason no one kicked Hezballah out, if other people posting are any indication. Not that the Lebanese agreed, but that they were too busy being “united” to disagree.”
What is your reasoning behind this statement? Why do you think Hezbollah was not kicked out? Because of “unity”? What does that even mean?
You obviously have no idea what your talking about in regards to Lebanon. Lebanon has never been fully “united”. Recent history, which I imagine you ignored when posting your comment, shows that there was sectarian violence. They united against Syria, sure, but sectarian divisions still run deep there, although people have been able to tolerate and live aside each other. Hezbollah was not kicked out because they could not be kicked out without conflict, and Lebanon has not been able to afford such a conflict, it’s not strong enough.
July 19th, 2006 at 8:10 pm
Scott , maybe you are right and I don’t understand islamist, So I shall be forever grateful for bombing me into understanding as a punishment..
So your plan is to kill them all? Damn … that sound a lot like their plan to kill you all!
But then again I wouldn’t understand …
and vince you say “They united against Syria, sure,”
Even regarding syria, almost 1 million people demonstrated FOR syria on march 8th 2005 so we really didn’t totally unite.
July 19th, 2006 at 8:25 pm
Anonymous Leb -
Lebanon is in a very, very difficult situation. The sane Lebanese don’t have the power to disband or even change Hizballah because an attempt to do so would bring a civil war… and that would entail not 200 but 200000 casualties. And Hizballah would not budge from their first goal - the establishment of a Sharia theocracy in Lebanon. I have a feeling that many, if not most, Lebanese have no interest in this.
And the plan is not to “kill them all”. The plan is to weaken them to such an extent that the Lebanese can take care of Hizballah by themselves. One of the prime goals is to kill Nasrallah - with him gone, Hizballah’s power base will rapidly diminish. Another prime goal is the destruction of Hizballah stockpiles of arms and ammunition - they are a direct threat to Israel… and to Lebanon. And yet another prime goal is to sever Iranian and Syrian supplies to Hizballah - hence the attacks on Hizballah-funding businesses (fund channels) and the like. Without the above, Hizballah would be castrated, ill-equipped to continue propaganda or military activity. Lebanon will have a chance, for a change.
There is a slight chance this whole thing might actually work. The future of Lebanon will be determined by the outcome of the current events…
And this Raccoon hopes that it will be a safe, free and prosperous future.
July 19th, 2006 at 8:47 pm
“Even regarding syria, almost 1 million people demonstrated FOR syria on march 8th 2005 so we really didn’t totally unite.”
That’s true, I shouldve made that clearer, but it adds to my point that unity was not in issue in Hezbollah not being disarmed.
July 19th, 2006 at 8:59 pm
Vince,
Clearly you have your opinion, and I have mine. Debates are fine, but I would ask you attempt to actually argue the point and not curse at people who disagree with you.
“I don’t think that solidarity is what stops them from questioning or debating. It may be the case for some Arab countries, but definately not representative of all of them, let alone the Lebanese.”
Great. That’s your opinion. So then my question remains that if the Lebanese government knew that Hezballah was there, and disagreed with some of their actions and ideals (as many other posters on here have stated) then why keep them? Why not throw them out to begin with? Fear? Bribes? Political pressure? If you disagree with me, then make a cogent argument.
“‘The fear of death and destruction wasn’t the real reason no one kicked Hezballah out, if other people posting are any indication. Not that the Lebanese agreed, but that they were too busy being “united” to disagree.’
What is your reasoning behind this statement? Why do you think Hezbollah was not kicked out? Because of “unity”? What does that even mean?”
My reasoning behind that statement was that if there is now violence in the region, then clearly trying to avoid violence by allowing Hezballah into the government didn’t work. Pressuring people not to speak out against fellow Muslims, even if you know they are wrong doesn’t work. This is a violent group that is willing to hurt anyone in its path to achieve its goals. I, personally, think that the Lebanese could have seen that, known what might happen, and should have stoppped this earlier not wait until it’s out of control.
“You obviously have no idea what your talking about in regards to Lebanon.”
I never said I was an expert. I’m giving my opinion and I had hoped that I would meet people who could actually debate, rather than resort to character assassinations, which is a weak way of distracting from a point.
“Recent history, which I imagine you ignored when posting your comment, shows that there was sectarian violence.” “Hezbollah was not kicked out because they could not be kicked out without conflict, and Lebanon has not been able to afford such a conflict, it’s not strong enough.”
You’re imagining me now? I’m flattered. Really. Anyway, if you’re interpretation of events is correct, then Lebanon had enough force to unite against Syria, but not enough to try non-violent means to getting rid of Hezballah? Did you know that the KKK in the US suffered its lowest membership during WWI and WW2? During WWI the US was taxed, both financially and emotionally, and yet the government and individuals who actually cared about it managed to communicate to the people to resist this hate group. People were run out of towns on rails. Now, maybe your next comment will be, “But Lebanon isn’t the US” and you’re right. They have the benefit of technology and knew what Hezballah was all about. They could reach their citizens far more easily and display a unity against what these people were working for, which is clearly the destruction and chaos that is now going on in the region. People may disagree with me, and that’s fine, but frankly I hold the Lebanese government deeply responsible for this situation. They had the time, and despite your claims I think they also had the resources, to communicate to the public that Hezballah was not something to be taken in. They didn’t, and that’s my point.
July 19th, 2006 at 9:42 pm
You have a choice, you either take hezballah out, or a force of foreign fighters will. I think it would be fine if you worked with outsiders and address the issue. Lebanon is responsible for actions of hezballah if they are allowed to operate within her boarders.
July 19th, 2006 at 10:24 pm
I can’t understand why the Israelis don’t attempt to make common cause with the anti-Hezbollah factions before they launched an attack. Instead they go and pound the anti-Hezbollah with bombs! IDF is not as smart as they act sometimes. They could have waited, negotiated a deal with the Druse, Christians, and so forth, then conducted a joint military action to crush Hezbollah between an Israeli hammer and a Lebanese anvil.
Also, it’s about time they recognized that this is a Syrian attack. If I were the Israeli PM, I’d simply announce that henceforth any Hezbollah attack will be regarded as a Syrian attack, then pound the crap out of Damascus.
July 19th, 2006 at 11:53 pm
My point exactly, SM.
However, lebop, in his frustration, candidly admitted that at the top, Lebanon is still a terror state, where politicians who openly oppose Hezbolloh fear assassination, and communities who oppose Hezbolloah fear being wiped out.
Israel can change that to some extent, I’m sure. But not as effectively as a team of Lebanese and Israelis could. The longer it takes the Lebanese to act, the more property - and lives - will be destroyed.
July 20th, 2006 at 12:32 am
They don’t even have to actively send police/troops to disarm them. It’s enough for them to speak very loudly, sharply and clearly for their disarmament. The taboo has to be broken. It’s already tearing at the seams but almost nobody had the guts to go all the way!
Of course it’s nice to be in good relations with Hiz supporters but it has disastrous consequences. Let them talk more and more loudly and clearly about how they expect from Hiz to disarm themselves for good and to let the entire Lebanese people decide if to start a war.
Simply talking and demonstrating their wish very sharply will not start a civil war but it will paint Hiz into a smaller and smaller corner. They can also make it clear that wheh Hiz threatens a civil war if it is disarmed then Hiz is blackmailing everybody and that this is unacceptable!
Syria escaped due to people’s protests!
Let a line in the sand be drawn without everybody paying lip-service to Hiz!
Of course prior to all this, nobody dared to do it. Partly because they didn;t care enough and partly because the Lebanese people weren’t disturbed.
Now nobody dares to do it properly because it’s easier to point the finger at Israel. It’s high time (and way past it) for the Lebanese leaders and people to join together and call out against Hiz’s being armed and for the deployment of the Lebanese army! It;s a simple enough choice: war or peace!
You can’t have a little of both! It;s either one or the other!
I hope Lebanon steps up to the challenge and doesn;t take the emotionally easy way out…
July 20th, 2006 at 12:56 am
Without a powerful ally who will take on Hezballah (and the only such available ally is Israel) disarming Hezballah seems to be for any Lebanese faction(s). The Lebanese who were willing to ally with Israel lost during the last civil war and orders of magnitude more people got killed than are dying in Lebanon now. Moreover Israel deserted many of it’s allies during it’s hasty withdrawal. Most are in exile or dead . I imagine some Lebanese are thinking about another try but it’s a very risky proposition indeed . It is certain death if you are wrong with large political costs even if you are right. If one does nothing the risk of death is very low and there is no political price to pay either. Consequently the prudent course is wait and see how things develop.
July 20th, 2006 at 1:35 am
[...] Sandmonkey – Just wondering is all The Lebanese Sunnis, christians and Druze have been complaining about Hezbollah’s weapons for some time now, but have always feared attempting to disarm it directly because they didn’t want to start another civil war, with all of the potential death and destruction it may bring Lebanon. Now, since Death and destruction are already here because of Hezbollah’s weapons and actions, and it’s not likely to get worse than this, are you now going to demand to directly disarm them once and for all? What, exactly, at this point, do you have to lose? Is this honestly any better than another lebanese civil war? [...]
July 20th, 2006 at 3:38 am
The Lebanese government is unlikely to challenge Hezbollah even if it is weakened for reason I stated previously; namely, the need of Lebanese leaders to appease the large Shiite population.
For all the talk of the Israelis needing to win over the Sunnis, Christians and Druze in Lebanon, the truth is that such support, even if it could be garnered among ordinary Lebanese, would amount to very little practically.
The only way that things are likely to change substantially is if the Shiite population renounces violence and learns to value peaceful and democratic processes and institutions. This isn’t going to happen any time soon. Given that there is nothing the Israelis can do or can avoid doing to win the support of Lebanese Shiites.
The only thing Israel can do is to weaken Hezbollah militarily and financially. Hezbollah (or future Shiite threats modelled on Hezbollah) will continue to engage in the usual “death to Zionists” eee-style rhetoric. The important point is to ensure that they can do little more than bluster in the future.
In the end, the largely ignorant, uneducated, fast-breeding, religiously zealous Lebanese Shiites are the problem; Hezbollah is just a reflection of that.
News:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060720/ap_on_re_mi_ea/lebanon_israel
July 20th, 2006 at 3:39 am
I think Mark Twain would have immediately understood that Lebanese aren’t willing to risk getting a hangnail in order to make Israelis more safe…
It’s not in human nature to risk yourself to help someone else. They’ll always be a reason why now isn’t the right time.
July 20th, 2006 at 4:08 am
My thoughts briefly -
1-Israel should have never even touched lebanon, it should have immeidately pounded syria and iran.
2-the only solution for lebanon is to expel the 900,000 shia and send them to iran, where they belong.
Other countries, like armenia, expelled large hostile populations and is so much better for it today.
July 20th, 2006 at 4:52 am
To Anon Leb: “I beleive in disarming them through dialogue, political pressure and acceptable compromizes (as we were trying to do) but taking it all the way to a possible civil war because “what else can we lose”, thanks i’ll take the israeli pounding for another ten days.”
Easy to take that stand when you weren’t the targets of their rockets. Just because you find it tolerable that they were firing into Israel doesn’t make Israel all “happy happy joy joy” with your talk and negotiations and dialogue crap.
Take responsiblitly. Either join the fight against Israel or join the fight against Hezbollah or, lastly, stfu and stop whining that the bed Lebanon made for itself turned out to be made of nails.
July 20th, 2006 at 9:53 am
Josh Scholar, if you look at Israel’s actions over the last week, i think you’ll find that they are drawing a line between the actions Of Hezbollah and the repercussions to the Lebanese population. Regardless of the rights or wrongs of all their actions, what happens to Hezbollah and what actions Hezbollah take will now directly affect the Lebanese in a personal way.
It is no longer a case of “getting a hangnail in order to make Israelis more safe…” it is a case of getting rid of the rats in your basement before the neighbours come round and burn your house down to eradicate them.
July 20th, 2006 at 9:57 am
And Jason from toronto, you think its as clear cut a case as that?
“Easy to take that stand when you weren’t the targets of their rockets….
Either join the fight against Israel or join the fight against Hezbollah or, lastly, stfu and stop whining that the bed Lebanon made for itself turned out to be made of nails.”
Can we spell H y p o c r i t e.
July 20th, 2006 at 10:33 am
OK, I’m sorry for offending you. My argument, which
“That’s your opinion. So then my question remains that if the Lebanese government knew that Hezballah was there, and disagreed with some of their actions and ideals (as many other posters on here have stated) then why keep them?”
In my previous post, I said:
“Hezbollah was not kicked out because they could not be kicked out without conflict, and Lebanon has not been able to afford such a conflict, it’s not strong enough.”
“You’re imagining me now? I’m flattered. Really. ”
Oh yeah baby…
“My reasoning behind that statement was that if there is now violence in the region, then clearly trying to avoid violence by allowing Hezballah into the government didn’t work.”
It didn’t work for the Israeli’s, unfortunately, but it worked in Lebanon. Internal stability was a priority in Lebanon. Hezbollah is completly to blame for this mess with Israel, but they haven’t initiated any violence internally, which is important for a country trying to recover from a civil war.
“They had the time, and despite your claims I think they also had the resources, to communicate to the public that Hezballah was not something to be taken in. They didn’t, and that’s my point.”
Look, I shouldn’t have insulted you, fine, and I should respect your opinion. But have you thought of the consequences of publicly communicating to the population that Hezbollah is bad? Hezbollah isn’t a Syrian presence in Lebanon, the Lebanese were able to pressure them to leave because a significant international audience was watching, and it was reflecting badly on Syria along with the accusations of the assassination of Hariri being directed towards them. They were never going to fight back, certainly not start another civil war. Hezbollah, however, would, if they felt like they were being pressured or forced to disarm, fight back without regard for the obvious consequences of war. This is my opinion, because I suppose I can’t come up with a source that would predict that, but if the current conflict is any indication of what Hezbollah is willing to do, the government is understandably weary of forcing them out and possibly igniting a new civil war, considering that they are relatively powerful in the country and enjoy enough support to drag an internal conflict on and on.
“If you disagree with me, then make a cogent argument.”
I do disagree with you, and I hope this argument was cogent enough for you, or at least worthy of a rebuttle. But I’ve been hearing this from so many people, that the Lebanese government is responsible, and people only seem to be referencing events from the past few years. Hezbollah has been around for a while, and they’re pretty powerful in Lebanon, kicking them out is not as easy as people are making it out to be, and indeed it could prove to be impossible for the Lebanese majority to achieve this. I don’t necessarily agree that appeasing them was the best solution, but it made sense at the time, and people never seem to bring up why they are still around. In your first post, you said:
“the fear of death and destruction wasn’t the real reason no one kicked Hezballah out, if other people posting are any indication. Not that the Lebanese agreed, but that they were too busy being “united” to disagree.”
That was what I argued at first, because, unity, with or without quotation marks, is not an aspect of Lebanon.
July 20th, 2006 at 10:41 am
“Hezbollah isn’t a Syrian presence in Lebanon, ”
That statement is not clear. Hezbollah is arguably a Syrian presence in Lebanon. But what I meant is that what the Lebanese got rid of was the official Syrian presence in Lebanon, which was not going to start a huge conflict with the world watching, not teh proxy known as Hezbollah.
And I’m not sure if it was clear in my post, I’m not defending Hezbollah in any way.
July 20th, 2006 at 10:54 am
Hey Sandmonkey: an alternate question:
Egyptian liberals have seen bloggers thrown into prison, along with Ayman Nour, the judges purged, and the government cracking down on demonstrations and free speech. The whole enterprise of the past two years, the slight loosening of society, et cetera has pretty much been clamped down on; you’re living in a repressive society.
So why aren’t you guys out on the streets with guns or molotov cocktails or whatever weapons you can find, fighting against the state? Would it honestly be any worse?
July 20th, 2006 at 1:16 pm
Vince,
Good points. I guess I just feel that a group like this needs time to grow and raise funds. So why didn’t the government handle it when it was smaller? That debate can go back and forth. You’re probably right when you say that instability was Lebanon’s paramount fear, so it attempted to appease where it could. I will never say that I agree with their allowing Hezballah to grow, even if had cost them stability. I will always think that the Lebanese were not powerless to stop this, and that there were a hundred different paths that could have lead to a more peaceful resolution of this situation.
“‘You’re imagining me now? I’m flattered. Really. ‘
Oh yeah baby…”
You’re dirty…
Thank you for the post and explaining your position, I can’t say I totally agree, but I appreciate the debate.
July 20th, 2006 at 3:11 pm
Canicula: Good you know how to spell hypocrite. How arab of you. A people renown around the world for being the epitome of hypocrasy. Whine and cry when the big bad Jew finally gets annoyed of all the little mosquitos buzzing and biting and swats back.
It is very clear cut, unless of course you decide to make it otherwise. Either Hezbollah goes or Israel goes. That is the solution to current problem. Make a choice and work towards getting one or the other neutralized. Don’t complain about the pain of the experience or expect to be called a whiner.
July 20th, 2006 at 9:09 pm
> A people renown around the world for being the epitome of hypocrasy.
Yes, jews in Palestine.
Beggars, thieves and murderers - crying and pretending to be victims.
Definitely jewish in Palestine.
July 21st, 2006 at 12:47 am
A ‘Sandmonkey Offers A Few Thoughts
It’s looking like Israel intends to take care of the problem that those Lebanese Sunnis, Christians and Druze have been complaining about.
July 21st, 2006 at 2:33 am
Perhaps Lebanon should look to Jordan on how to control their crazies on their country. Jordan has a large population of angry people that would love nothing better than to start a war with Israel. But you don’t see Jordan letting these bozos run the show there.
July 21st, 2006 at 11:20 am
Jason, the hypocrite jab is aimed at your attacking Israel’s critics for judging their actions when not under Hezbollah rockets, then judging Lebanese actions when you’re politicians aren’t being assassinated and you aren’t sitting under Israeli bombs.
You’re immediate leaping to the conclusion that for me to criticise your stance must mean i’m an Arab kind of makes any point i was to attempt mute. You’ve done it for me.
I just recognise that I am unlikely to be authoritative when London is no more at risk than Toronto, you don’t seem to see that.
July 21st, 2006 at 9:20 pm
Jason from Toronto Says:
> Easy to take that stand when you weren’t the targets of their rockets.
First of all sorry for the delay in my response.
Are you really sitting all the way across the globe in Toronto partronizing me?
Isn’t it easy to say whatever bs you want about the feeling of being under rockets where you’re not target of anything either? but i degress … that’s not important.
With all the talk and whining that civilian israelis are “the target of their rockets” and not being able to wait anymore four us to move lazy asses I would think someone would have done their homework and checked the numbers.
Haaretz indicates that one israeli civilian has been killed by hezbollah rockets in the past 6 years (since Israel pulled out from Lebanon) - please feel free to prove me wrong.
From memory I can remember at least two incidents where the IDF has killed lebanese civilians in south Lebanon (they said it was an accident, they though they were hizbollah fighters) , and at least a couple of people have died and half a dozen mutilated form the mines left behind the israeli occupation in those same 6 years
Again do not take my word for any of this check for yourself.
So really you guys should ease up on the whining of how you were victims of terror.
In the past week alone Hiballah has killed way more israeli civilian and military that it did in the last 6 years but of course their death is ok for you, they died in the name of war no one should have though of sparing their lives!
One civilian dead in six years was sooooo much worse …. oh the rockets! oh The terror … whatever …
(of course about 10 times more lebanese have dieds this week but that’s not the issue)
> Either join the fight against Israel or join the fight against Hezbollah
I was trying to explain a point to SM, for now i am not taking up the arms but if the reserves get called, the army (who was carefull to stay out of this war until now) will be fighting the invading Israely Soldiers of course so it’s obvious whose side I’ll be fighting.
Unless you are also suggesting I rebel against BOTH army AND hizbollah just to satisfy your ignorance of the situation.
Then again, with bombs falling on your head in toronto, you surely have a better understanding of the issue
July 24th, 2006 at 9:11 pm
Hannah, just in case you read back this threat.
> I guess I just feel that a group like this needs time to grow and raise funds.
> So why didn’t the government handle it when it was smaller?
The answer is simple, the group started in Lebanon in 1982 after the israeli invasion of Lebanon.
During the eighties time, the government of Lebanon was divided, the Israelis had control of the south, the syrians had control of the north and most of the east, and the Lebanese were fighting a civil war until the early 1990s. (in the early eighties the president was assasinated, in the late eighties we had no president and two prime ministers at conflict with each other)
Then form the end of the civil war in the early 1990s until 2004 Syria was effectively ruling Lebanon and supplying Hezbollah with weapons and power.
I hope that answers your questions without sounding like I am trying to put the blame on anyone or excusing anyone for not doing their job.