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Thursday, 20 Jul 2006
This is what this feels like: A never-ending war. The Battle that will never end, mainly because the Israelis are willing to Kill to stay alive, and because the arabs are willing to die to kill them. I don't think Peace is possible, mainly because you need a common ground for peace, and a level of acceptable losses. The Israelis will always reach a point where their losses become unacceptable, and they will push for Peace. Not for our side. Our acceptable losses are limitless, as long as we win. When your acceptable loss is your own death, what is there to compromise on?
The Israelis want to destroy Hezbollah, but they can't, because it's a culture and a nation. You want to destroy Hezbollah? You have to kill every single person who supports Hezbollah and its Ideology. You have to eleiminate almost all of the Shia in Lebanon. You have to engage in ethnic cleansing, and you can't do that! Now, since YOU CAN'T DO THAT, you will lose. It is inevitable. In order for the gun to kill the idea, it has to kill everyone who holds the idea. Since you can't do that, the idea will always win. The cause will always survive. The Israelis maybe willing to kill for Israel, but the arabs are willing to die for the cause. There is no winning for the israelis. Only degrees of losing!
But let the folly continue anyway…
Moving on, let's see what the people have to say today:
Subzero Blue is quoting the always idiotic Uri Avenry, who believes that the aim of the current conflict is to install a government that is Israel and US friendly. Dude, the government is not the problem. This government was already US and Israel friendly. It's Hezbollah that isn't.
Lisa is writing a more detailed version of the explanation for those pictures . It's worth a read!
Doha is asking the same question I asked earlier about Lebanon. She now believes that Lebanon got sold out.
Paretz confirms that Israel has no intention of occupying Lebanon, but has no problem going inside the borders and doing things when he feels like it deems necessary!
PM Seniora says that Hezbollah must be disarmed, and that Israel can defuse its power and prupose if they withdraw from Shaaba farms and release the prisoners. BP agrees with that solution!
Haartez is giving a realist/defeatist (It really depends on which side you are on) view on Hezbollah after 9 days of bombing. Their conclusion? It didn't affect Hezbollah at all!
Mubarak says he tried again to negotiate the release of Shilat, but those pesky "external forces" (wink wink Syria nudge nudge) keep interfeering. Dude, of course they will interfeere; this crisis has been great for their economy so far.
Abu Kais writes another post that breaks my heart.
And last but not least, make sure to check Itoot's roundup of this current crisis!
Have a nice day!
July 20th, 2006 at 12:17 pm
“You have to kill every single person who supports Hezbollah and its Ideology. You have to eleiminate almost all of the Shia in Lebanon. You have to engage in ethnic cleansing, and you can’t do that! ”
The Allies killed 3 million Japanese and 4 million Germans and millions more non-combatants in WWII. I think it is going to require a comparable amount of carnage in World War III (or IV).
July 20th, 2006 at 12:36 pm
Either way you look at it, millions will die.
If they wish for death, they will get it. But at a time or place of our choosing until their concept of ‘honor’ is destroyed and they feel sthemselves subdued. It’s about time we give the Muslims their own choice.
July 20th, 2006 at 12:43 pm
SM, I believe Israels intention is to attempt to crush Hezbollah’s offensive infrastructure and if possible kill the current leadership. This will cripple them, at least for a while. They have also crippled ( temporarily ) their supply routes. It is obvious that Israel had not been clarifying trade between Iran and Lebanon but once HEz, has been crippled and much of their arsenal destroyed, Isael will, watch with an eagle eye and possibly even extinguish incoming vessels from Iran attempting to re-supply Hezbollah. While the suicide bomber etc. will always be a threat, without range missiles, Israel knows that it doesn’t matter how many Hezbollah sympathisers there are in Lebanon, because without these type weapons, they can do Israel no harm.
Does your change of heart on this issue not also condemn Hezbollah for it’s obvious hidding behind the Lebanese civilian population ? Why do Hezbollah not fight like men. I am not naive to the possibility that Israel might be fucking up and bombing area in Southern Beirut that are innocent, but it is not a revelation that any of these terror organizations use innocent mass population to take cover. This is the height of cowardess !
I wish none of this were happening but I have to ask the anti-Israeli members, if they have ever thought to question why it is that Jordan and, for the most part, Egypt manage to maintain peacefull relationships with Israel. That Israel does not antagonize, once peace agreements are reached and Israel truly believes that it’s Arab neighbors are not our for the death of Israel ? One has to wonder who is truly at fault here. My firm belief is that if all of these terrorist organizations would just shut the fuck up and now legitimized, start the work of real govt etc. and in time I guarantee that prisoner exchanges would happen with Israel ( Once they believed that ” death to Israel was not the prevailing sentiment ). Land would be returned through peaceful but possibly heated debate etc etc.
The only fuck ups here are Hamas and Hezbollah, the former being a group I gingerly supported after it’s election. They failed to rise to the occassion as obviously has Hezbollah in Lebanon.
My heart aches for the innocent who have and will continue to die on both sides, but I blame Iran, Syria, Hezbolla and Hamas for all of this shit. Imagine being surrounded by constant shouts of hate. If you as a person had to listen to your neighbors scream hate and death at you every single day, one day you would lash out and this is what Israel is doing now. They have shown amazing restraint for the last few years.
Sorry I have been clear that I love Middle Eastern culture and have many Arab / Muslim friends and wish to God that the Middle East would allow the neighsayers to bathe in the beauty of the Middle East, but terrorist organizations are the scurge of the ME and until it is eradicated and replaced with reasonable intelligent leaders, who while not appeasing Israel will sit down at the table, the ME will continue to be chastized but the rest of the world that only wants peace.
July 20th, 2006 at 12:46 pm
dude, that’s intense
July 20th, 2006 at 1:09 pm
Frenchman,
what change of heart?
July 20th, 2006 at 1:09 pm
I have to say that i agree with the diatribe of the ’sandmonkey’. What the west and its minions tend to forget is that it is not ‘madness’ that creates what the west self-servingly terms, ‘terrorists’, but the death and destruction rained on the transnational Nation of Islam. Thus, many Muslims who perceive themselves as part of this non UN-recognised nation will inevitably be led closer to the path of militaristic action, as any other ‘citizen’ of a UN-recognised nation that suffers attack from without, the more this nation suffers under the onslaughts of the colonial overlords and their remote outpost, Israel.
July 20th, 2006 at 1:18 pm
You were right the first time. It’s a never-ending war. Keeping an ideology alive doesn’t mean the Nazis “won.”
Root for giant space rocks!
July 20th, 2006 at 1:21 pm
Sand monkey:
I have to disagree with you. I do not believe Israel’s goal is to wipe out Hezbollah. Their goal is to elliminate the military capacity of Hezbollah, and to flex Israeli muscle, and show they are not to be fucked with.
The truth is that there is no cycle of violence. All there is is Israel showing force when the costs of not showing force get to be too much. When Israel shows the appropriate level of force, there’s a temporary detante, because the terror groups start getting scared of Israel. After all, the only thing the terror groups understand is force. Appeasement works to their advantage.
There will always be billions of people in the world who hate Israel, and Israel always will need to have the best military in the world in order maintain its very existence. I doubt anyone within Israel actually thinks this war will change any of that. All anyone is hoping for is a return of the soldiers and a temporary detante.
I want to add that the reason there’s so much hatred is in part tied to the media. I have seen Hezbollah TV programs calling all Jews cockroaches, and TV programs about the Protocols of Zion. Thankfully, Israel hit the Lebanese TV station. I view that as equivalent to Rwanda’s Hate Radio, and the broadcasters to be war criminals. Until action is taken to change the Arab media, then hatred will only foment and perhaps increase in the next generation.
Are there innocent Lebanese who are caught in a crossfire they did not ask for? Yes. My belief, which I have said many times in many different places, is that war is hell. But sometimes it is necessary.
Sand Monkey, I have seen a shift in your attitudes lately about Israel. I have an honest challege for you, posed by Alan Dershowitz: what would you do differently?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alan-dershowitz/a-challenge_b_25378.html
July 20th, 2006 at 1:38 pm
One more thing…
Hezbollah is not a nation. It is an illegal terrorist group that is fomenting the hatred within Shias. Destroy the infrastructure of Hezbollah, and be willing to help pay for the rebuilding of Lebanon into a stronger nation than it was before…
…And then maybe some of the next generation of Shia, not raised on Hate TV/Hate radio…will hate a little less.
Maybe.
July 20th, 2006 at 1:44 pm
The Frenchman is absolutely correct.
July 20th, 2006 at 1:45 pm
“The Israelis want to destroy Hezbollah”
I would have to agree with Frenchman and Miss R above.
Israel is not attempting to “destroy” Hezbollah any more than it is trying to “destroy” the Arabs called Palestinians.
Israel is attempting to remove their offensive capacity and keep these de facto Iranian and Syrian surrogates off of the borders with Israel.
That is a huge problem in of itself, but it is not the attempt to “destroy an ideology.”
Israel may fail in its attempt, but that is what Israel is trying to do.
And yes, this will go on until the ideology changes or, more likely, until such time as a Arab or Muslim strongman is able to take power and commit the kind of genocide on the death cultists that you are writing about, to which the world will indeed, turn a blind eye….
Sigh…
However, in the immortal words of Sancho Panza in the musical “The Man of La Mancha,” regarding Israel, “Whether the rock hits the pitcher, or the pitcher hits the rock, it’s going to be bad for the pitcher…”
Sigh…
July 20th, 2006 at 1:51 pm
“Sand Monkey, I have seen a shift in your attitudes lately about Israel”
killing of 300 civlinas in one week will infleuence any normal human being.
July 20th, 2006 at 2:33 pm
I find the links very accurate
if Becca, the gentle beyrouthan girl could read theses lines, I invite her to come to my safe home in France
July 20th, 2006 at 2:36 pm
¿Quién tiene razón en Oriente Medio?
Han contestado 1176186 personas
1-37.2%
2-62.5%
3-3.3%
Leyenda
1 - Israel
2 - Los palestinos
3 - Ns
July 20th, 2006 at 2:46 pm
http://fromisraeltolebanon.info
July 20th, 2006 at 2:59 pm
If the “civilian” is working in a Hezbollah stronghold, I don’t care if he’s cleaning weapons or passing out figs — he’s not a civilian.
That was one of my favorite lines from the Afghanistan conflict (I love it when people are brave enough to say the actual truth and not “spin” it). People were upset that so much destruction was rained down on a single villiage, just because it was chock full of Taliban and al Qaida fighters, tunnels and weapons stores. The Pentagon said “we know precisely what we hit. Those people are dead because we wanted them dead.”
It is because war is so utterly, contemptably horrible, that make Hamas and Hezbollah terrorist and rocket attacks so contemptable and horrible. That is ASKING for a war, and now they have one.
If the people in Lebanon didn’t see the horror in allowing Hezbollah to live among them and kill Jews — then they can’t bitch about the horror now that it’s switched sides.
July 20th, 2006 at 3:05 pm
SM, I usually agree with your analysis, but I think that this time you might be a bit off. This whole “Arabs are willing to die for their cause” lionizes the Jihad while gravely underestimating the West.
There is a difference between pulling out from foreign territory because guerillas kill your soldiers and the original threat of why you were there in the first place is gone (as was the case with the original pullout) and guerillas attacking your territory and thus, the integrity of your border and country. The stakes are different this time. I was in Israel before the pullout from Lebanon, and most Israelis had no idea why they were still there. This is NOT the case now. Israelis know precisely why they are there, so their will to complete the mission is more forceful.
The idea that the bombing just creates more terrorists/emnity/Nasrallahs may indeed be true in practice, if Israel is shown to be hamstrung by the International Community or by it’s own self-image as a peaceful nation, giving terorists hope that Israel can be defeated. But in theory, as insensitive as this might sound while Lebanese civilians are being killed, history has borne out that complete miltary victory crushes these things. Today there are still Neo-Nazis and people calling for the restoration of Japanese Imperialism, but their total obliteration was the main factor in “dismantling” the ideology. The Japanese Kamikazes were also willing to die for their cause, but in the end, they found that their technological superiors were only too happy to accomadate them. So by the end, the Japanese made the calculation that they would not survive their ideology, so they were forced to change it.
At this juncture things may look in favour of the Jihadists, as their sympathizers apparently grow from Israeli attacks and American condoning. They have the demographic edge (which they’ve had for the last 50 years and hasn’t seemed to be a factor), and the West is weak when it comes to civilian losses due to urban terrorism. And they can withstand a “long war” because of their faith. What people forget is that the longer the war goes on, the better the West’s technology gets. Even nuclear weapons are worthless if your enemy can shoot down your delivery capabilities and you can’t shoot down his. The rise of terrorism is a logical step for the Jihadist. His enemy is constrained by Geneva, “International World Opinion” and a whole bunch of other things he isn’t. Terrorists can’t be held accountable the way a soveriegn state can, and thus that’s why soveriegn states don’t attack Western targets, they get their unanswerable proxies to do it for them, so we get into tricky situations like Lebanon. But while World Bodies may not be adapting to this new kind of warfare, technology is. From tank construction to missle defense to robotic controlled war machines (which is where military technology is going), Western nations are making it harder and harder for the enemy to kill their soldiers. If you look at the death rates of modern wars, the disparity between deaths on the technologically advanced society and its less-advanced enemies are growing almost exponentially. This trend will continue, until it becomes a numbers game Islamists can’t win. That breaks the ideology.The question is will. The occupation of South Lebanon was not viewed as an existential struggle for Israel. This conflict is. Therefore, the will is stronger (though Israel could make blunders, which would certainly change my analysis).
I should note that on a global scale, I don’t think the West will win this war until they can pull off what the Islamists did in Somalia, which is to use the native population to fight for your ideology. But the actual survival of Western countries (Israel included) won’t hinge upon the will of the Arab/Islamic world, which in the scheme of things, is largely irrelevant.
July 20th, 2006 at 3:08 pm
SM, I jumped the gun a little. Upone first reading your commentary, I felt a little changen in the nuance of your commentary but after a second read, I see your comments as equal sacrasm as it pertains to both sides. I apologize for being a little fast on the light trigger. One thing for sure, you are play your deck very even handedly. If only the world was comprised exclusively of people like you and I who evaluate events based on reason rather than bullshit, we will all be screwing each other the good way, instead of the bad. Peace to my brother in Egypt
July 20th, 2006 at 3:16 pm
I have a subscription to Ha’aretz. They’re defeatists, not realists.
Of course, even a blind chicken sometimes finds a grain of corn…
July 20th, 2006 at 3:38 pm
Inquisitor how can you say this ? : ” that creates what the west self-servingly terms, ‘terrorists’, but the death and destruction rained on the transnational Nation of Islam ”
There are Islamic nations worldwide, Indonesia ( the world most populace Muslim state ), Malaysia, do I need to list all of the others ? who live in relative harmony with the rest of the world. Muslims who practice peacefull Islam are given just as much respect as any other group. There are Muslims living worldwide, Mosques erected throughout. Even radical Islamic groups are allowed to congragate and spew hatred so long as they don’t act, by way of freedom of speech. Even in the US, which has been the greatest target of Islamic fundamentalism has welcomed Muslim and is in fact evacuating thousands of Muslim American citizens out of Lebanon as we speak. There are thousands of Muslims living in Israel !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Find me a single Jew in any Muslim nation !! I grew up in Singapore and 20 years ago, I had many Israeli friends and none could visit Malaysia or Indonesia. Why because of the Palestinian issue. Don’t you get it ? The Israeli issue with the Palestinians is territorial not religious !
I believe the opposite is true and that Islam has the been the greater force of intolerance in the last decades.
Yes the history between Israel and Islam has been harsh but holly fucking shit, isn’t it time to let baygons be baygons in the interest of friggin peace. I have heard countless people define how many of Palestines neighbours don’t really give a flying shit about the Palestinians, so what is it ? I just don’t get.
Everyone has had their share of persecution in history, Arabs included. The difference is that all of these conflicts suffered by the rest of the world have been relegated to the history books because in the end humanity is exponentially more important than bloody religion. Yes there were periods of adjustment, unraveling hate takes time and patience. Hamas and Hezbollah are obviously of the belief that suddenly because they have been put into govt that they should reap immediate rewards, which only indicate their immaturity in the real of real governance.
With all due respect, please do not fall back on the poor Islam argument. There are far too many martyrs in fundamentalist Islam as it is. What the ME now are people of true strength, who are willing to say enough is enough, the past is the past, let’s pave a new future for our people, instead of continuing to dig deeper and deeper holes for them. We need world quality leaders in the ME. The very best example being King Abdullah II and his father. You don’t hear him crying about Muslim persecution.
Until those in Islam who still feel persecuted get over themselfes and dust off their shoes and say I am going to be positive rather than negative, there will be no change, which as I have said given all that the Middle East has to offer, is horribly saddening.
July 20th, 2006 at 3:40 pm
Jonathan wrote :
” Of course, even a blind chicken sometimes finds a grain of corn… ”
What a fantastic line. LOL
July 20th, 2006 at 3:44 pm
Ideas can be changed, but you have to be able to accept the truth. Therefore, let’s discuss the Golden Age of Islam, because that is what all these groups like Hamas and Hezbollah want to return to. The Golden Age was the period of expansion by conquest in Islam. Why would that produce a Golden Age? Because you were usurping other cultures’ accomplishment, once Islam establish itself as the only viable culture with no further expansion and subjugation of other peoples, it suffocated over a very short period of time, all development and advancement.
Were Hamas and Hezbollah successful in regaining the land of Palestine and annihilating all Jews, they would still not regain the Islamic Golden Age. They would not have the standard of living which the Israelis at present enjoy nor their level of development, because they would be “killing off the goose that lays the golden egg.” It is a people and ideas that make a country great, not the land where it is located. Where people are free they have an incentive to produce.
When Israel was first created in the 1940’s, it was given desert and the least productive land, yet they used their minds and bodies to turn the land productive in an environment encouraged by individual freedom. I, as a non-jew, with no ancestral claim to any land in Israel, could go to Israel, bring some ideas with me, establish a productive business and seek to become a citizen, knowing full well that my rights to practice my Christian faith along with other personal freedoms would be protected.
July 20th, 2006 at 3:45 pm
That’s a long standing thing over here. But here it’s : “even a blind pig will find an acorn now and then.”
But that one didn’t go over so well in the ME ;o)
July 20th, 2006 at 3:50 pm
Very well put Iris !
July 20th, 2006 at 3:54 pm
My irony detector is redlining.
Israel is hardening the hearts of the Shia by bombing the crap out of them? No doubt. But if bombs harden the heart, perhaps one can understand why Israelis can be a little hard-hearted, no?
The Lebanese bemoan that they are the battlefield for someone else’s war? They are, of course, right to be upset. But wait, the sunis and the christians don’t want to risk civil war by taking out Hezbollah (in compliance with the UN), and WHO gets bombed? Israel. Hamas and Fatah are struggling for power in Gaza, and WHO gets bombed? Israel. Iraq invades Kuwait, and the world kicks them out, and WHO gets bombed? Israel.
Lebanese are upset that civilians are being killed accidentally. Keep in mind that some of these civilians are also storing missiles in their basement, and otherwise aiding and abeting Hezbollah. Still, they’re civilians, so it’s at least sorta kinda wrong, granted. But where, exactly, is Hezbollah aiming their missiles. At civilians, of course. Ditto the Palestinians. A stray shell, fired at combatants firing missiles, accidentally kills their willing human shields. Oh, the horror! Oh, the missiles they fired hit a school? What joy!
The irony detector is redlining.
Or is it the bullshit detector? I can’t tell.
July 20th, 2006 at 4:13 pm
#23 Gadfly “That’s a long standing thing over here. But here it’s : “even a blind pig will find an acorn now and then.””
I learned it as “Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn in the woods once in a while.” But frankly, I believe them all to be inferior to “Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.”
If I may be so bold, may I suggest that one of the biggest problems facing Muslims today is the greater emphasis that seems to be placed on honor, as opposed to pursuing their own best interest.
An example.
I live and work among a cosmopolitan group of people, which includes a number of Muslims. A Muslim friend of mine owned an apartment with a very leaky roof. He sued the owner of the building. A year and a half after he bought it, someone came along and wanted to buy the building to knock it down. They offered him three times what he had paid for the apartment, but as a condition, he would have to drop the lawsuit. He had a choice between pursuing his honor (staying in the leaky apartment and persisting in his lawsuit) or his self-interest (making $1.2 million on a $400,000 investment over 18 months, and getting out from under the leaky ceiling). The Christians, Jews, and Hindus thought this a no-brainer. All the Muslims agreed with him that he had to continue with the lawsuit for the sake of his honor. Incredible.
I realized that this represented a big part of the problem in the ME.
After the Holocaust (which, incidentally, really did happen, no matter what Ahmadinejad says), we Jews could have held out for a return to our houses and property, retained our bitterness, tought our children to trust no one, and strapped bombs on them to blow up discoes and pizzerias in Germany. Instead, we did the best we could, raised families, found new homes, integrated into the surrounding cultures, and sent our children off to college. As a child of that generation, I’m glad, because holding the real keys to a real house in New York beats the crap out of holding the keys to a non-existant house in Warsaw while living in a hut in a refugee camp and demanding handouts from the UN. Is there more honor in the refugee camp? Maybe, but I’m glad all the same.
July 20th, 2006 at 4:24 pm
http://india_resource.tripod.com/mathematics.htm
The Indian Numeral System
Although the Chinese were also using a decimal based counting system, the Chinese lacked a formal notational system that had the abstraction and elegance of the Indian notational system, and it was the Indian notational system that reached the Western world through the Arabs and has now been accepted as universal. Several factors contributed to this development whose significance is perhaps best stated by French mathematician, Laplace: “The ingenious method of expressing every possible number using a set of ten symbols (each symbol having a place value and an absolute value) emerged in India. The idea seems so simple nowadays that its significance and profound importance is no longer appreciated. It’s simplicity lies in the way it facilitated calculation and placed arithmetic foremost amongst useful inventions.”
July 20th, 2006 at 4:28 pm
Excellent point Brooklyn. In fact I lost a very dear person as a friend because for this very reason. We had a fight, no side was right but I stepped up to the plate many times and he refused to succomb and I know it was because if his honor. In Asia like probably the middle east it is called ” loss of face ” and it is a crippling affliction.
July 20th, 2006 at 4:31 pm
http://www.shaka.mistral.co.uk/coffee.htm
Coffee plants are originally from Ethiopia although it was always thought they originated from the Republic of Yemen. It is easy to get confused about the origin since many of the old legends that talk about the farming of coffee plants and drinking of coffee take place in the Arab countries.
July 20th, 2006 at 4:36 pm
http://www.sciam.com/askexpert_question.cfm?articleID=000A41D6-B959-1C71-9EB7809EC588F2D7&catID=3&topicID=11
The first evidence we have of zero is from the Sumerian culture in Mesopotamia, some 5,000 years ago. There a slanted double wedge was inserted between cuneiform symbols for numbers, written positionally, to indicate the absence of a number in a place (as we would write 102, the ‘0′ indicating no digit in the tens column).
The symbol changed over time as positional notation, for which zero was crucial, made its way to the Babylonian empire and from there to India, via the Greeks (in whose own culture zero made a late and only occasional appearance; the Romans had no trace of it at all). Arab merchants brought the zero they found in India to the West, and after many adventures and much opposition, the symbol we use took hold and the concept flourished, as zero took on much more than a positional meaning and has played a crucial role in our mathematizing of the world.
July 20th, 2006 at 4:51 pm
ok with history, where do you want to go Iris ?
July 20th, 2006 at 4:53 pm
Brooklyn Jon - great analogy & IMHO so so correct. Greatest hypocracy todate - we hear absolutely no Islamic outrage regarding Moslems killing Moslems (Sunni vs. Shia in Iraq). Your own people are blowing each other up in Iraq yet there are no protests, no shouts of Death to Sunnis or Shia from the Arab world. Agmed - 300 dead is an indication of Israeli restraint. If the Israelis did not go to great lengths to not target civilian population & just wanted to carpet bomb the south, many, many, many more would require quick funerals. Sad reality is the Lebanese people now reap what they have sowed by tacitly supporting an organization whose goal is the obliteration of a sovereign state.
July 20th, 2006 at 5:23 pm
Our acceptable losses are limitless, as long as we win.
I don’t agree, Sandmonkey. Iran and Iraq both reached a point where their losses became unacceptable in the 80s. That level wasn’t even partuclarly high by historical standards.
I think it’s only this constant attack/ceasefire/attack cycle that keeps the losses so low that every can accept them in perpetuity.
July 20th, 2006 at 5:37 pm
Peoples and cultures interact and exchange when they come together. That is the way it is; that is the way it has always been. But, when a Master-slave structure is set-up that interaction and exchange is stifled and may eventually lead to it being totally cut-off.
July 20th, 2006 at 6:05 pm
“The Battle that will never end, mainly because the Israelis are willing to Kill to stay alive, and because the arabs are willing to die to kill them.”
BANG ON!
July 20th, 2006 at 6:29 pm
I would like to pose a question. If Israel is bombing everything that moves in Lebanon and if they are heavily bombing Hezbollah bunkers and they dont know where there kidnapped soldiers are, then what are the chances they could bomb their own soldiers?
Maybe there arent any soldiers to hit *WINK* Not trying to stir things up, im just wondering if anyone else has thought about that.
July 20th, 2006 at 6:37 pm
D.B.
Because it’s better to have them die a quick death than to live whatever tortured life they will have left if they are not found.
July 20th, 2006 at 6:41 pm
“The Israelis want to destroy Hezbollah, but they can’t, because it’s a culture and a nation. You want to destroy Hezbollah? You have to kill every single person who supports Hezbollah and its Ideology. You have to eleiminate almost all of the Shia in Lebanon. You have to engage in ethnic cleansing, and you can’t do that! Now, since YOU CAN’T DO THAT, you will lose”
Not true.. its happened before and it can happen now. What do you propose? Having Israel sit on its ass & have rockets rain down on them? Enough if enough of this bullshit. It’s time to end it.
July 20th, 2006 at 6:42 pm
Peoples and cultures interact and exchange when they come together. That is the way it is; that is the way it has always been. But, when a Master-slave structure is set-up that interaction and exchange is stifled and may eventually lead to it being totally cut-off.
you call it so, I would say civilisations are mortal, and I see our wertern one is ending as the roman empire did
July 20th, 2006 at 6:46 pm
Has anyone heard from Nasrallah in the last 24 hours?
July 20th, 2006 at 7:31 pm
Nomad,
you call it so, I would say civilisations are mortal, and I see our wertern one is ending as the roman empire did
Yours is. Your culture ended in WW II. Europe itself is falling, but France was the first to fall. Luckily, The United States is not Europe. Maybe it’s time to stop calling the US a western country. We aren’t much like you guys, anymore. If we ever were. And we certainly don’t intend to fall just because Europe is stuck in a downward spiral. The US has been rising all these years, as you were falling.
Glad to see you finally admitting that Europe is becoming Eurabia. The rest of us have believed it to be so since the riots, at the least.
Honestly… Europe is not an ideological ally of the United States anymore. I’d be very happy if we stopped pretending that we were. We need to make new allies, and leave the past (which is western europe) behind us. Most Americans are not even descended from Western Europeans.
July 20th, 2006 at 7:44 pm
In my opinion people are born with a basic understanding of right and wrong. I think it is going to come down to: either you are with us or your against us. The israeli people should not have to continue living with nations that believe they should be wiped off the map. I think the world needs to call upon the people in the middle east to root out the terrorists and bring them to justice. Essentially a war is about to ensue that IS going to change the state of the middle east. You are right about our humanity, but remember the people the israelis are fighting are firing rockets into civilian neighborhoods. Yes the israelis are killing civilians as well, but that is because those civilians have chosen to allow terrorists to live in their neighborhoods. Our world humanity hinges on stopping the insanity that the extremists in islam are pushing for. Unfortunatly I agree witht Israel that war is the only option at this point. As much as I hate war I think a full scale invasion by the US, Isreal, and Brittian and others on Iran, Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon is likely to be the only way this is resolved. It will likely require a couple million people to die. It scares the shit out of me…but I’m more scared of a world that supports hate groups. I suspect we are going to see some of this in our lifetime…perhaps soon
July 20th, 2006 at 8:52 pm
> The Israelis will always reach a point where their losses become
> unacceptable, and they will push for Peace.
My gawd, an invasion of slime.
> Not for our side. Our acceptable losses are limitless, as long as
> we win. When your acceptable loss is your own death, what is
> there to compromise on?
We all know this slime, this kind of apologies from american and
hebrew masmurderers already. So what makes you more interesting?
You’re neither the first, nor the last sandnigger that wants to be on
the side of the master race. A pinocchio that eats their shit and
claims that it smells and tastes like roses.
Booooooooooooooring.
July 20th, 2006 at 8:55 pm
> I think the world needs to call upon the people in the middle
> east to root out the terrorists and bring them to justice.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes and yes!
Lynch’em all: ben Gurion, Meir, Begin, Shamir, Sharon and rest
of the gang that came to palestine to create their gangster state
by terror and ethnic cleansing.
Israel - the only “jewish only” democracy needs to be wiped from
the map - a good reason for all arabs to unite.
Thanx so much.
July 20th, 2006 at 8:56 pm
that Israel can defuse its power and prupose if they withdraw from Shaaba farms and release the prisoners.
So, let me get this straight:
After the last attempt at appeasement (withdrawing from south Lebanon) by Israel, Lebanon agreed to secure the southern border, exert its authority over the entire nation, and disarm Hezbollah. Furthermore, Israel engaged in multiple prisoner exchanges previously.
Israel withdrew from southern Lebanon and the Lebanese government failed to live up to its promises. Previous prisoner exchanges have now resulted in 8 dead and 2 kidnapped soldiers. Hezbollah is more of a threat to Israel than ever and the same-old problems have reared their ugly head in a new and more dangerous form.
But now Siniora says “if Israel will just appease us once again and withdraw from the Shaaba Farms and release more prisoners, this time we promise…..yes, we promise….we really, really promise…that it will be different this time around.”
I will promise Olmert that if he trusts the Siniora on this, history will repeat itself.
I’d tell Siniora to go fuck himself if I was Olmert….
….but that is just me.
News:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060720/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iran_hezbollah_s_patron
I love the opening:
Iranian officials often say that places with the greatest troubles offer their country the best opportunities.
Of course they talk like that. It isn’t Iranians that are dying, it is the Lebanese. The Iranians are always happy to sacrifice Arabs for their own purposes.
Still, I’m glad they feel that way. Maybe the West should give Iran some serious troubles then. Let us open up new opportunities for them.
July 20th, 2006 at 9:28 pm
“Europe is not an ideological ally of the United States anymore”
Correct me if I’m wrong here Craig, but you seem to be saying that Europe, in its entirety, is now an ideological enemy of the US. I can see your point to an extent; Inasmuch as our collective governments seem to be blinded to the realities of “Multiculturalism”, effectively empowering the Muslim minorities to dictate policy to the indigenous majority.
I couldn’t speak with experience of other European nations, but I can tell you that British society is starting to stir with a nasty undercurrent and teeth are starting to be bared. In short….We’re getting pretty fucked off with being told how to be British and sooner or later something’s going to give.
Tony Blair and his whimpering cronies I feel are going to find out just how fucked off as soon as a decent opposition comes along. An opposition that can be trusted to clamp down our borders and basically say “Be British or piss off”, or better still; “Don’t bother coming here”. Remember, our present government may not be much good at upholding the values of our traditional society, but governments change.
What I don’t understand is your proposal that you basically wash your hands of your allies. Is it a case of “Do what the US expects you to or we’ll leave you to the dogs”?. Now here’s a thought….Wouldn’t “Screw multiculturalism, the Brits et al have stood by us while we defended our way of life, we’re with them all the way while they defend theirs”…….As I believe the US is for the most part doing now with the Israel / Lebanon situation.
I couldn’t speak for other Europeans on the subject, but as a Brit I find your notion of cutting and running on us a little unsupportive. As I said, I may have gotten you all wrong here mate, but if not I’m sure the spirits of many British and American servicemen would wonder if they fought and died together so we may simply leave eachother to the jackals when our governments ideologies didn’t seem to agree.
July 20th, 2006 at 9:46 pm
Wishbone,
Correct me if I’m wrong here Craig, but you seem to be saying that Europe, in its entirety, is now an ideological enemy of the US.
No, I said it wasn’t an ally, not that it’s an enemy. The two things are not the same, I do have a concept of neutrality or even of overt hostilty, which I don’t consider to be the same thing as enmity
I couldn’t speak for other Europeans on the subject, but as a Brit I find your notion of cutting and running on us a little unsupportive.
Well, Britain has been one of the few western european countries that has expressed any support at all for America the last 5 years. I admit that. But it hasn’t come without a cost. We get beat up in the British press every single day. If I loaded the BBC news site right now, what percentage of the articles that I found that spoke of the US would be outright America bashing? I’m guessing, almost all of them. I’d be happy to check it if you wish to challenge me on that.
Now, you can say that’s just a media campaign and doesn’t reflect public opinion, but did you see that poll that was published on our Independence day that showed over 80% of Brits think of Americans as being uncouth, ignorant, uncultured, arrogant, selfish, etc, etc, etc?
Do you really feel you’ve been a steadfast ally of the United States? Maybe I’m missing something here. If so, I’m willing to take another look. I don’t mean to offend the Brits (or any other european nation) I just honestly do not see that we have that much common cause with EUropeans anymore.
July 20th, 2006 at 9:58 pm
Nomad,
Yours is. Your culture ended in WW II. Europe itself is falling, but France was the first to fall. Luckily, The United States is not Europe. Maybe it’s time to stop calling the US a western country. We aren’t much like you guys, anymore. If we ever were. And we certainly don’t intend to fall just because Europe is stuck in a downward spiral. The US has been rising all these years, as you were falling.
Glad to see you finally admitting that Europe is becoming Eurabia. The rest of us have believed it to be so since the riots, at the least.
Honestly… Europe is not an ideological ally of the United States anymore. I’d be very happy if we stopped pretending that we were. We need to make new allies, and leave the past (which is western europe) behind us. Most Americans are not even descended from Western Europeans.
I did not ment specially your country, but the global western civilisation, thus our both continents, like it or not, you are an european product , do what ever you want, fight more, bomb anyone who try to provoque, the facts are here, the world wants his part of the cake, and soon or later he will have it
(see, latins are going progressively to overwhem your country)
you think Europe is no more your alliee, not in the way you think you are the winners, we don’t stand to changes as you may think it would be the only good way : go and make war in far back posts, we keep our energy to absorb changes, we may change too, but we ‘ll keep the memory
thank you for remind me your old song of WWII, that was a real good job your contry fellows did that time : it was a clear enemy with clear purposes,
eurabia seems an upseting idee for you, but we don’t live too bad wit it, we have to make our brain work for apeasement and progess, that the way life is !
July 20th, 2006 at 10:32 pm
The Joooz will looz!
July 20th, 2006 at 10:43 pm
I heard an interesting thought the other day.
If the Arab terrorists took all their weapons and threw them in the sea, there’d be peace tomorrow.
If Israel took all their weapons and threw them in the sea, there’d be another Holocaust.
July 20th, 2006 at 11:00 pm
Europe’s problem is that they depend on the USA for security, if they held the power to protect themselves there wouldn’t be such animosity towards the USA.
What idea does the Shia hold exactly? If it is to rid the world of Israel and the western influence on their socialities, I believe 10’s of millions are going to have to die. I don’t think it’s possible for the world not to be a global community.
July 20th, 2006 at 11:13 pm
Europe’s problem is that they depend on the USA for security, if they held the power to protect themselves there wouldn’t be such animosity towards the USA
England and France have their own nuclear power, no nead an us umbrella !
we just don’t want to follow US in all their crusades, and saying so Bush administration argue : you are with us or against us without nuances !
It is much the lack of confidence with that administration which drive people criticising us politics
July 20th, 2006 at 11:24 pm
Craig-
With reference to Ideological alliance/enmity…..Conceded mate….I was thinking in black and white terms without considering all the various shades of grey……My bad
Also I’m far too happy to bash the British Bullshit Corporation for that very same reason, so no argument from me there. Same goes for the rest of the lefty/liberal media also. Since WWII we seem to have developed an elitist middle class, the Tabithas and Tarquins all, who seem to like their ignorant views reiterated in the media regardless of the fact that they’re heads have never been out of their arses long enough to get a world view and it’s easy to pander to the general readership when that readership mainly consists of ignorant idiots that open their eyes every morning to find they’re staring at the back of their own teeth
. It helps them feel safe, the poor little things.
I’ve got a copy of that poll result here Craig. There doesn’t seem to be any any distinction as to which exact cross section of society it was pulled from other than the sample size was 1962. Out of a population of 60 million!. Not exactly a difinitive view, the results of which can safely be filed under B for bin, as they say. Of the funnier results these two stuck out: Preoccupied with money 84% and Dominated by big business 90%. It would amaze me if the poll subjects could even pronounce “capitalist ideal”.
As for the rest of it, regarding Americans’ general decorum, I’d be more inclined to point those questioned in the direction of this little gem…
http://www.expedia.co.uk/daily/press/releases/Best%20Tourist.doc
I’d say it put things into a little more perspective for the more introspective Brit and from my own point of view it’s more than a little shameful.
There are British politicians right now that want our borders and immigration clamped down on, a full withdrawal from the Europian Union, and all human rights acts repealed because they’re hampering us in what we know may need to be done one day. They are also advocating telling the rest of the EU to go screw itself AND its’ multiculturalism and bolstering the trade and mutual alliances we have with the US. The parties proposing these strategies are growing in popularity too. So as I said, change could be in the wind and common sense restored.
I know you don’t mean to offend Mate as neither do I. We each have our opinions and the right to express them and debate the differences. Of course, have a go at the French all you like…….Aside from Football, it’s our national pastime…….They’re still pissed that we were at war with ‘em for almost a thousand years and they never won a single decent scrap. It’s why they’ll never agree anything with us on principle
July 20th, 2006 at 11:25 pm
Sandmonkey: “In order for the gun to kill the idea, it has to kill everyone who holds the idea.”
You don’t see many Japanese kamikaze pilots these days.
July 21st, 2006 at 12:08 am
if i may quote a line from the movie “aliens”.
there is only one sure way, nuke it from space.
July 21st, 2006 at 12:15 am
They’re still pissed that we were at war with ‘em for almost a thousand years and they never won a single decent scrap. It’s why they’ll never agree anything with us
yeah, forgot any Guillaume who teached you good manners ? and we kick your ass out of here in century war !
your lovely foot-ball clubs have mainly french players
and your retirees seems to like better over her !
July 21st, 2006 at 12:30 am
Wishbone - You are a damn good man!
I typically agree with a lot of Craig’s political views. I think he’s a solid American patriot. As I was reading his post about “old Europe” I could’t help but think that the Brits have done a pretty good job of standing side by side with America. You, mate, simply reaffirmed that view
BTW, that poll you cited is interesting because I just saw another similar poll that had Americans as the worst tourists…the poll you have has Americans as some of the best tourists. Who knows?
Every where I’ve traveled I’ve bumped into Brits. I’ve had nothing but great experiences where I’ve met them.
July 21st, 2006 at 12:52 am
Wishbone–
I have been astounded by some of the multi-cultural stuff I’ve seen coming out of the UK. I’m a Victorian Era historian and just can’t believe things like a proposal to avoid displaying the British Flag during the World Cup because it has a cross in its design, or banning Piglet from the workplace least it offend a Muslim.
Of course, I am astounded by my own country’s kowtow to Latin Americans. How did we get into our respective messes?
July 21st, 2006 at 1:17 am
Nomad,
we kick your ass out of here in century war !
That is right, nomad! It took the French well over a century to expel the British from French territory during the 100 Years War. LoL! It took a tough French female (Joan of Arc) to rally the troops to do it, too!
Oh well, at least French women are attractive. The wine is good and the culinary arts are highly developed too. I can honestly say I enjoy some of the literature also: Voltaire, Zola, Proust, etc.
You have a few things going for you, I suppose. War isn’t one of them.
News on the Palestinian front:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060720/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians;_ylt=AmQIHvhDUZBu_uYeKCgsiTln.3QA;_ylu=X3oDMTA3b3JuZGZhBHNlYwM3MjE-
Also, I heard on CNN the following:
Apparently the Lebanese government is stating that the army will join the side of Hezbollah if Israel launches a ground invasion.
OK. More stuff to get straight. Let us see here….
….the Lebanese Army cannot possibly defeat Hezbollah they have claimed….
….OK they cannot defeat Hezbollah….
…but they think they can defeat the IDF (WTF?)…..
….hmmmmm…..
….hmmmmmmmmmmmm……
July 21st, 2006 at 3:25 am
This is one time an Arab aggressor must be allowed to be beaten so badly that every civilized nation will stand in horror, wanting desperately to step in and stop the carnage… but knowing that the fight will only truly be over when one side gives up and finally admits defeat.
Just as every person who had ever rescued that bully from admitting defeat helped create the cowardly brute I saw that evening in the bar, every well-intentioned power that has ever stepped in and negotiated a ceasefire for an Arab aggressor has helped create the monsters we see around us today.
President Lahoud of Lebanon, a big Hezbollah supporter and a close ally of Syria, has been shrieking non-stop to the UN Security Council for the past two days to get them to force Israel into a cease fire.
Clearly he has been reading his autographed copy of ‘Military Success for Dummies Arab Despots’ by the late Gamal Abdel Nasser of Egypt. Ever since Nasser accidentally discovered the trick in ‘56, every subsequent Arab leader has stuck to his tried and true formula for military success:
1. Instigate a war.
2. Once the war is well underway and you are in the process of having your ass handed to you… get a few world powers to force your western opponent into a cease fire.
3. Whatever you do, don’t surrender or submit to any terms dictated by your enemy. That would ruin everything! All you have to do is wait it out and eventually the world will become sickened at what is being done to your soldiers and civilian population… and will force a truce.
4. Once a truce has been called you can resume your intransigence (which probably caused the conflict in the first place), and even declare victory as your opponent leaves the field of battle.
This tactic has never failed. Not once.
http://bogieworks.blogs.com/treppenwitz/2006/07/thanks_i_needed.html