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Friday, 28 Jul 2006
Dear arab readers,
A lot of you have complained that I am taking a pro-Israeli stance, which came as a surprise to me, mainly because I don't recall cheering on the IDF in any of my posts. On the contrary, I've been chastizing them . So, ehh, me thinks that you are confusing the fact that I am anti-Hezbollah with me being Pro-Israeli, which is not the same thing, as any lebanese will tell you. I understand that in your little narrow world view the two are mutually exclusive, but, no, it's a little more complicated than that. And while I may not approve the way Israel has handled itself in Lebanon, that doesn't mean I will be waving a Hezbollah flag anytime soon.
But I am open to convincing…
Now, please help convert me to your cause by Convincing me that the following is true:
Convince me that Hezbollah aren't Syria's agents in Lebanon, and that they are not Syria's tool for fighting Israel because the syrians are too chicken shit to do it themselves.
Convincel me that Hezbollah refused to disarm because of the resistance, and not because that's what scares the other sects.
Convince me that Syria did not kill Rafiq Al Harriri, and that they are not loving whats going on right now.
Convince me that this is not about extending Iran's influence in the region, or about releasing the pressure off of Iran for its nuclear program.
Convince me that there is honor and diginity for us in war, when we don't have or enjoy either living in our own countries under regimes that opress us daily.
Convince me that this is all done genuinely.
Do that and I am yours. I am in. All the way.
Because it seems to me, that the moment you throw in the word Israel, all of that shit gets forgotten, and that I am suppsoed to cancel my brain, and support those assholes. The moment you use that word, it magically tarnsforms the world, making Bashar is the hero of arabism, Nasrallah is the symbol of Lebanon and Hamas is the model to what a government should be.
And that's incredibly dumb.
Listen, Israel has lost this war already, they just don't know it yet. They are battle weary, tired of fighting, and it shows. They took on Egypt, Jordan and Syria in 67 in 6 days, 6 DAYS! They haven't been able to take over southern Lebanon for 2 weeks now. Hell, they even withdrew from Maroon el ras today, the one tiny village that they were able to take over. They have gone soft. It's plain for anyone to see.
The problem now is what will happen after they withdraw.
Some people claim there will be a civil war. I doubt it. There are no more militias, and if there is one, the Shia will win it very quickly. They are the ones with all the weapons and nothing to lose. Whatever happens, the Shia influence will take over Lebanon, and it may very well turn it into an Iran-style Hezbollahstan. It almost seems inevitable.
Oh well…
All Hail Supreme Ayotallah Nasrallah!
July 28th, 2006 at 4:51 pm
I blame Italians
July 28th, 2006 at 4:54 pm
“Dear arab readers,………………………………, I understand that in your little narrow world view ……………….”
Thanks for the nice opening of a dialogue. I doubt that a person who easily accuses a collective of being narrow minded is the right one to debate with.
And no I am not pro Hizobollah and I will not be waving their flag ever.
July 28th, 2006 at 5:09 pm
We shall see what happens. I hope that Israel has not already lost. Though to be honest, I am not sure what would define a victory here.
July 28th, 2006 at 5:12 pm
Tom Friedman’s latest article. Embedded in it is a question worth pondering:
“… I sat at a swank rooftop restaurant the other night with some young Syrian writers and listened to a discussion between a young woman dressed in trendy clothes, talking about how she would prefer to see Israel disappear, another writer who argued that Nasrallah was an Arab disaster, and an Arab journalist who described the “pride” and “dignity” every Arab felt at seeing Hezbollah fight Israel to a standstill.
When will the Arab-Muslim world stop getting its “pride” from fighting Israel and start getting it from constructing a society that others would envy, an economy others would respect, and inventions and medical breakthroughs from which others would benefit? “
July 28th, 2006 at 5:12 pm
2: Amgad:
“Thanks for the nice opening of a dialogue. I doubt that a person who easily accuses a collective of being narrow minded is the right one to debate with.”
Hey, he’s just stating the obvious - he even explains later in the text. After all, isn’t it true that, as soon as the word Israel is mentioned, all arabs are closest kin, even though, moments before, they were blowing each other up? It’s like some kind of magic word that immediately resets any form of coherent rationale…! The fact that he’s being bashed for supporting Israel, when he’s obviously not, says it all.
July 28th, 2006 at 5:21 pm
3. Red Tulips:
“Though to be honest, I am not sure what would define a victory here.”
This would be my candidate for a victory:
-Israel’s bombardment sets Hizbollah back about 80-90 %.
-Lebanon decideds they don’t wan’t anymore to do with the Hizbollah and disarm the remaining terrorists.
-Israel gets the bodies of it’s abducted soldiers returned and pull their forces back.
-The world community get together and build up the Lebanese infrastructure in record time.
-Lebanon stands out as the prime example of a progressive and succesfull arab nation as an example to all.
-The Iranian and Syrian citizens get envious and revolt against their respective tyrants.
Am I being hopefully naive here? Probably, but really… what’s to stop this from happening other than arab “pride”?
July 28th, 2006 at 5:22 pm
They have a site called Petition Online and in it you can put forth any idea you think has merit and then get people to vote on it!
With all the conflict over religion and politics in the Middle East and elswhere I put out a petition a few days ago that we should have a policy where the only crime is interfering with someone else’s rights.
This would legalize suicide, freedom of religion, abortion, (since your are not affecting SOMEONE’s life, - a fetus is not a person) etc. etc.
In other words you could do whatever you liked as long as it didn’t hurt anyone else. The classic case for this would be; “You can’t yell fire in a crowded theatre!” (Interference -156)
Here is the site and Petition; http://www.petitiononline.com/moses/petition.html
To: everyone
That we adopt a system of non-interference with other human beings. In other words-do what you want, just do not interfere with anyone else!
Examples; Slander someone -interference “201″, Assault someone -interference “98″ - First Degree Murder -interference “1″.
Some criteria needs to be established. For example in the case of abortion it would have to be determined by common consensus when a fetus is considered a human being!
This would also make suicide legal as long as you don’t hit someone on the sidewalk under the building you jumped from (Interference-92!)
Which brings me to this quote a ran across that sums it up quite nicely.
“I need no warrant for being, and no word of sanction upon my being. I am the only warrant and the sanction.” Your religion stops where my rights begin. Deal with it. - Anonymous
Your Scribe
Allan W Janssen
July 28th, 2006 at 5:30 pm
Adam:
Okay, that’s a fair characterization of victory.
July 28th, 2006 at 5:38 pm
Yer crazy if you think Israel has lost or will lose. This phase of the war is taking the IDF so “long” because they’re rooting out tunnels and terrorists, and there are a lot of them. If Hez can declare victory based on the amount of time it takes Israel to pick through the garbage, victory has lost all meaning.
Plus we all know Israel is slowed down because of its devotion to humanitarian concerns, common to all democracies (and nonexistent outside of them). Does that add to Hez’s victory? If Israel is careful of civilian life, the terrorists win? I think not.
Hez’s stated goal - like all Islamofascists - is to bring about an end to Israel. How’s that going for them? Hmm, not very well. Meanwhile Israel could effectively bring about an end to Lebanon, Syria, or any other local state if it wanted, as we all know. Since it doesn’t do this, you can conclude that it doesn’t want to. On the other hand, Hez wants to, dreams of it, froths over the idea, and can’t do it.
Democracies are essentially decent, which means not just careful military campaigns but also a free press that openly mourns loss of life. This is a sign of strength, not weakness. Delusional fantasies that confuse this decency with victory for terrorist corpses have done little to help the Arab world for decades. Move on.
July 28th, 2006 at 5:57 pm
#7, Basically your approach is nothing more than Libertarianism.
“Libertarianism is a political philosophy advocating that individuals should be free to do whatever they wish with their person or property, as long as they do not infringe on the same liberty of others.”
For more details, see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian
In your proposal, do rights include “the right not to be offended”? This was the right demanded by the Muslims who objected to the Danish cartoons. If so, your own Web site may violate that right.
Re your statement: “a fetus is not a person.”
Many, many people would disagree with you. They believe life begins at the point of conception. (I don’t want to get into a debate about abortion. I happen to agree with your position.)
Bottom line: The devil is in the details.
July 28th, 2006 at 6:10 pm
Just had a discussion with my wife and she brought up a very good point. War does not have to have any rhyme nor reason to it. It just is.
Her example was the Falklands War.
Here you had a bunch of Argentinian Generals who thought that - since they could do whatever they wanted in their own country - they could do the same in the world at large.
One of the Generals had the great idea that taking back “The Falklands” would boost popular support at home. Besides that England was on the other side of the world - so why should they bother about a few sheep and people on a piece of rock!!!!
WHAT THEY FAILED TO CONSIDER WAS THAT THEY WERE DEALING WITH THE BRITS!
Same situation right now with conflict in Southern Lebanon. Doesn’t matter what the issues are or the justification or even who is right and who is wrong. I won’t get into that here.
The only point is — YOU CAN’T BE A GROUP OF FANATICS - HIDING AMONGST THE GENERAL POPULATION - AND THINK THAT
YOU CAN FUCK WITH THE ISRAELIS.
Right or wrong, fair or not. has nothing to do with this or the price of tea in China.
It’s just plain stupid and now innocents in Lebanon are suffering because of it! This alone should be enough for the rest of the Arabs in the region to put a stop to it!
Except of course Iran and Syria who are behind this whole mess for their won reasons. (One of which is to take the heat off Iran for their nuclear program and the other is to get Syria back into Lebanon)
You Scribe
Allan W Janssen
July 28th, 2006 at 6:19 pm
I don’t think that Israel has lost but I’m not sure you would want them to win. Winning would mean leveling everything and fighting as the fanatics do. You see the rules are different….if Israel bombs and a civilian(even if they are living amoung Hebollah) is killed that is a war crime, if Hebollah commits a sucide bombing that is justified. If the west would fight and not listen to those who think they have to fight with one hand tied behind their back this would’ve been done in days.
July 28th, 2006 at 6:22 pm
SM,
“I always avoid prophesying beforehand, because it is a much better policy to prophesy after the event has already taken place.”
Winston Churchill.
Let’s compare our notes in a couple of months.
July 28th, 2006 at 6:43 pm
#9 “Yer crazy if you think Israel has lost or will lose.”
The U.S. will never allow Israel to lose. As long as the U.S. has nuclear weapons, Israel will survive. Even Bill Clinton indicated he would pick up a rifle and defend Israel in its final days.
If the U.S. military were not enough, a couple of million American military vets would flow into Israel as mercenaries to help defend the Israelis.
Remember, the U.S. nuclear arsenal has enough nuclear bombs right now to drop one nuclear bomb on somebody’s head each and every day for the next 28 years.
U.S. politics? Together the conservatives who support Israel and the liberals who support Israel make up an unbeatable majority. Look at the numbers in Congressional votes on the subject.
Will the Iranians scare the Americans with nuclear weapons? The U.S. went about its business for decades under the threat of nuclear bombardment from the Soviet Union. During the Cuban Missile Crisis (when it appeared there might be a nuclear war involving in the U.S. within a few days) nobody in the U.S. panicked. They simply said, “What will be will be.”
The question today is not whether Israel will survive. The real question is whether Muslim societies will survive.
July 28th, 2006 at 7:03 pm
dear sandmonkey. I think you might point out to your readers that in fact 99 percent of beirut has not been destroyed
http://vitalperspective.typepad.com/vital_perspective_clarity/2006/07/new_map_of_beir.html
and
http://vitalperspective.typepad.com/vital_perspective_clarity/2006/07/reports_destruc.html
that might help to restore sanity.
and this whole thing could be stopped if hesbollah simply gives back the soldiers and stops the missiles.
wouldnt that be a breath of fresh air.
Hezbollah considers the value of two israeli captives greater than all its dead people
July 28th, 2006 at 7:16 pm
SMs predictions in this aspect:
“Some people claim there will be a civil war. I doubt it. There are no more militias, and if there is one, the Shia will win it very quickly. They are the ones with all the weapons and nothing to lose. Whatever happens, the Shia influence will take over Lebanon, and it may very well turn it into an Iran-style Hezbollahstan. It almost seems inevitable.”
may be come true:
http://beirut2bayside.blogspot.com/
Key graf:
Hezbollah believes it has the right to hold Lebanese citizens and dispense with due process and execute them on the spot. It is beyond outrageous, and gives a whole new meaning to Nasrallah’s threat, which was understood by Walid Jumblatt: “As for his saying that whoever supports me deserves praise and whoever does not will be held accountable, that is a message. We received the message.”
July 28th, 2006 at 7:19 pm
Dont’ confuse the slower deliberate operation of the IDF as having lost it. Taking care to avoid as many civilian casualties as possible, they go in with troops before leveling the villages with aerial bombardment.
Israel may be making a mistake by listening to European criticism of its actions, and not using the full force of its arms, but their will and the vision to eliminate Hizbollah as a military threat certainly appears unshakeable.
Israel has not lost… they may be going softer than is possible, but losing is not an option.
July 28th, 2006 at 7:20 pm
Rumor has it that those who stated that giving the Shebaa Farms to Lebanon would cause Hezbollah to cease to exist are about to get a test of that theory.
As absurd as it sounds, I’ve been hearing rumors that Condoleezza Rice is going to ask Israel to pull out of the Shebaa Farms, as though appeasement will, once again, have some sort of positive effect.
I’ve been hearing these rumors for a few days. But today, for the first time, from the mainstream media, they seem to be hinting at it. Of course, they don’t out-and-out say the “Shebaa Farms,” instead they couch it in more cryptic language:
“but said any plan to end the fighting must address long-running regional disputes to be effective.”
Foolish idea. Giving up the Shebaa Farms means relinquishing high ground where it is easy to get a good view of Lebanon. If Hezbollah is not controlled, they will use the turf as a staging ground for future operations.
I hope it isn’t true. If it is true, I hope they have a damn good idea on controlling Hezbollah. Otherwise, we are about to see the fruits of appeasement once again.
July 28th, 2006 at 7:20 pm
The link to the quote I just pointed is here:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060728/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_blair;_ylt=Amc9PYglD4vwzTiClYur3Z4UvioA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl
July 28th, 2006 at 7:21 pm
Convince me that this is not about extending Iran’s influence in the region, or about releasing the pressure off of Iran for its nuclear program
I don’t believe it is - it’s too risky for Iran. One of the factors weighed against a bombing raid on Iran’s nuclear facilities has been the fear of causing a wider conflict in the Middle East. If that wider conflict happens anyway, it’s one less reason not to bomb Iran.
Unless of course someone accidentally let AJ make a decision?
Convince me that Syria did not kill Rafiq Al Harriri, and that they are not loving whats going on right now
Well according to a quote from “adviser to (Mahmoud) Abbas” in that UK bastion of right-wing pro-US Zionism, The Guardian…
“It appears that Syria’s main concern is the investigation into the murder of the Lebanese prime minister, Rafiq Hariri. If Syria could be assured that the investigation does not continue, there are indications that Syria would be willing to be helpful on many issues, not just the release of Israeli soldiers,” Mr Abbas’s aide said
Cui bono? Syria have a chance of getting some concessions out of this and at what price? The deaths of hundreds of Lebanese who humiliated them by kicking them out of their country. Israel will not attack Syria unless absolutely necessary, because the government thinks, ‘better the Baathist devil you know, than an Islamist one’.
July 28th, 2006 at 7:22 pm
Oops, sorry about the italics and I also forgot to post the link to the Guardian.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1830034,00.html
July 28th, 2006 at 8:00 pm
Italics off.
Hezbollah firing from Christian areas:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/012412.php
July 28th, 2006 at 8:01 pm
Italics off again.
July 28th, 2006 at 8:11 pm
I don’t think the Israelis have gone soft. I think they’re exquisitely aware of human suffering, and don’t wish to cause more.
Intense and biased media and UN scrutiny 24/7/365, does play a factor. Israel practically begs for permission to exist at all, let alone defend to defend herself, even against lethal threats.
It would be disingenuous to claim that propaganda and bias haven’t played a role in this war.
But far more importantly, the IDF hasn’t unleashed a percentage of what they can do, but the dual problems of civilian casualties in Lebanon - a country with which Israel has no quarrel, and the resulting animus that is created with each civilian death - whether the result of its being used as a human shield or not - are daunting to any nation of conscience.
There is a non-stop attempt to portray Israel as heartless killers, but the opposite is true. We DO love life, we love the lives of our enemies as well as our own, and the last thing in the world Israel wants to do is level a neighbor in pursuit of a terrorist militia.
Probably, the US would have done the latter, long before now. Most nation-states, confronted with non-stop missile attacks, a great percentage of its citizens living underground, crops dying on the vines, fruit unpicked and animals shredded by shrapnel, would have unleashed a mighty fury.
Israel has not stayed her hand because she is weak, but because she feels compassion, because each and every one of us feels the pain not only of our own losses but of the people across the line. And not a one of us shirks our sense of responsibility here. That is the meaning not only of consciousness but of enlightenment, the REAL meaning of democracy.
And it hurts like hell. How many times a day do we pray for wisdom.
Please - we don’t want to die with the Arab people, we want to live with you.
Shalom.
Sophia
July 28th, 2006 at 8:13 pm
Sandmonkey:
The following map shows that Israel in fact has not been quite judicious in its targets. It is only the media that has made it seem otherwise - ala Jenin.
http://vitalperspective.typepad.com/vital_perspective_clarity/2006/07/new_map_of_beir.html
July 28th, 2006 at 8:42 pm
I’m not so sure you can compare this war to the one in 1967… Hezbullah isn’t fighting fair. They are hiding among civilians and UN “observers”. If they were to come out in the open and fight like MEN, then this would be over in a matter of hours. And Hezbullah wouldn’t come out the victor, and they know it. They also know that they won’t be held responsible by anyone (other than the US, Israel, and possibly Britain) for deliberately putting civilians in harms way.
They know a good thing when they have it.
July 28th, 2006 at 9:21 pm
Oh I am in exactly the same situation. Anti-hezbollah is not the same as pro-Israel. Some people just don’t get that!!
July 28th, 2006 at 9:31 pm
Now I’m not pro either side so don’t get me pinned down. But it seems we all have short memories. The two kidnappings occurred a few days after Israel shelled that family on the beach. I guess my point is its all tit for tat and the only solution is dialogue as in Ireland. But when arms sales and religous zeal is so much fun why stop!
July 28th, 2006 at 9:31 pm
Sometimes cliches are the best responses:
#24: “Israel has not stayed her hand because she is weak, but because she feels compassion…”
Nice guys finish last.
#26: “Hezbullah isn’t fighting fair…”
All’s fair in love and war.
July 28th, 2006 at 9:39 pm
the design is wider,it is about east imperialismagain, about energy through shi’a instruments
July 28th, 2006 at 10:08 pm
Gavra,
Israel did not shell the family on the beach. Hamas did it, and said Israel did it.
July 28th, 2006 at 10:41 pm
#28 Gavra
Also, as has been discussed previously, The situation regarding the IRA was not driven by religious dictate. Catholic / protestant discord was convenient for their ends, but it was Irish unification that was their eventual goal; A political end. Also consider that the romantic (?) notion of the IRA being a “freedom fighter” to some was diminished considerably after 9/11. They lost a lot of support in the US and elsewhere after that and had no recourse but to take the wholly political path.
In short, the Bible wasn’t telling them to do it. Whereas the Islamic militias are fighting zealously as an article of faith, Hizb’allah included. On the other hand, Israel have never pretended that they fight because Judaism advocates it….. It’s a matter of survival.
There has never been any reason to believe Israel would wish for anything other than peace in the region and the right to live at peace with its neighbours. On the other hand, how many of its neighbours have avowed to annihilate Israel at one time or another?.
While I wouldn’t profess to know all the complexities of the situation, it’s far from being a case of “tit for tat” .
July 28th, 2006 at 11:11 pm
one group is dressed as civilians, taking potshots at another country with rockets hidden in a mosque or school somewhere when nobody’s looking, the other group is in uniform, bombing folks with tracts informing them of future actions, and urging decent folks to leave, before going after the sneaky, potshot taking chickenshit weasels, where is the moral equivelance here?
July 28th, 2006 at 11:24 pm
gavra and valerie — not only does evidence point to Israel not shellign the family on the beach, but that occurred in GAZA and as such is a dispute with THE PALESTINIANS, NOT HIZBULLAH OR LEBANON. to say one has anything to do with the other is bullsh*t and so simplistic that it hurts. this goes way way back and the fact is, Hizbullah has been building up and planning this for ages — if anything, they accelerated after Gilad Shalit was kidnapped. But make no mistake, this is not “tit for tat” for anyting other than existing.
As for the IDF, they are SO FAR from finished. I only hope the Israeli government makes decisions based on what needs to be done, not what Europe and the US want them to do.
July 28th, 2006 at 11:41 pm
Bubah3000
suuure, Hezbollah and the Palestinians have nothing in common with the way they behave. They share nothing, nothing at all in the way of tactics except their scrupulous regard for the truth and outstanding humanitarianism.
/s off.
July 28th, 2006 at 11:46 pm
I think most Arabs have been tactful about rooting against Israel while not trying to discuss Hezbollah too much. Why? This conflict serves as a platform for anyone who is Anti-Israel for whatever reasons and acknowledging the fact that Hezbollah is bad for Lebanon might not suit the people who want to condemn Israel. Something that needs to be understood about Arabs is that we have trouble seeing the world in anything but Black and White. Agreeing with Israel on anything means being against every Arab. Hating Israel means rooting for whoever fights them and so for many Arabs disagreeing with Hezbollah means agreeing with Israel.
July 28th, 2006 at 11:48 pm
Does Lebanon have a Shiite Niemoller?
First they came for the Israelis, and I did not speak up,
because I was not an Israeli
Then they came for the Christians, and I did not speak up,
because I was not a Christian
Then they came for the Druze, and I did not speak up,
because I was not a Druze
Then they came for the Sunnis, and I didn not speak up,
because I was not a Sunni
Then they came for me, and by that time there was not one left
to speak up for me
July 29th, 2006 at 12:06 am
“So, ehh, me thinks that you are confusing the fact that I am anti-Hezbollah with me being Pro-Israeli, which is not the same thing, as any lebanese will tell you. ”
That’s the view that Nasrallah’s thugs would like to impose on the True Lebanese. But we Lebanese know who’s really a patriot and who’s really an Iranian slave.
July 29th, 2006 at 12:30 am
You are putting things out of context, SM. Instead of trying to force your world-view on the Lebanese, try to see what they think of Hezbollah. A survey done between 24 and 28 February this year (by a research center that is neither Islamist nor West-biased), which included 800 lebanese, and was gender-, locality-, and denomination-balanced, came out with the following:
50,7% support the 14 February movemnet demanding impeaching the Syria-backed President
73,1% want early elections
75,7% consider Hezbollah “resistance”, not “militia”
58,1% do NOT support disamring the resistance
68,5% support the continuation of the resistance until Shabaa is free
70,9% support taking Israeli soldiers as hostages to exchange them with Samir Qintar and other Lebanese hostages in Israel.
Now, consider that this survey was done five months before the current thing, and if we know anything about the Lebanese politics, we will realise that, in such a complicated state-in-the-coming, any poll results that gets more than 60% support is a national consensus, which very rarely happens, it is really better for the Lebanese if we leave them make up their own mind about Hizbollah. I personally know so many Lebanese, Shiites, Sunnies, Maronites, Druze, Orthodox, some are refugees now, other remain in Beirut or the North, and all of them choose to focus on holding Israel responsible for all the damage done.
Let us now take your “convince me’s” one by one:
“Convince me that Hezbollah aren’t Syria’s agents in Lebanon, and that they are not Syria’s tool for fighting Israel because the syrians are too chicken shit to do it themselves.
“Convincel me that Hezbollah refused to disarm because of the resistance, and not because that’s what scares the other sects.”
The Lebanese think it is resistance. Let us all shut up.
“Convince me that Syria did not kill Rafiq Al Harriri, and that they are not loving whats going on right now.”
It did. It is, and it has done much worse in the past. This is particularly why you need to focus more on Damascus, and leave the resistance alone. The Lebanase have seen as much from Syria as they have from Israel. First we take Damascus (and I mean the People take it for themselves, not a la Iraq), then we take Beirut.
“Convince me that this is not about extending Iran’s influence in the region, or about releasing the pressure off of Iran for its nuclear program.”
I cannot imagine there is worse timing for Iran. They would love to have everything stable until they get their nukes. Hizbollah is backed by Iran, true, but it is not dictated by it. Wake up and read the statistics, if we are against Hizbollah, then we are enemy to a lot of Lebanese, mate. 18% of the parliament is Hizbollah. 18% of the Lebanese are Hizbollah.
“Convince me that there is honor and diginity for us in war, when we don’t have or enjoy either living in our own countries under regimes that opress us daily.”
You have a point. This is why you should focus on Egypt, because you know about it much more you know about the Levant. What if you work very hard, and I am with you, to convince the Congress to take away 2$ Billion a year from the Egyptian government, because they translate into truncheons and equipment that are used against my body in peaceful protests? You trust I am OK, don’t you?
“Convince me that this is all done genuinely.”
Come on, of course it is genuine. These are Arabs who believe that the millions of Arab refugees deserve their homeland back. These are Islamists who believe this is a religious duty, to see justice done. You can call them irrational, and I will join some of it when it has nothing to do with Israel. You can also call them names and say bluntly that you hate Islamists, especially when they are a majority, but do not argue they are not genuine. They are winning the war!
July 29th, 2006 at 12:42 am
an excerpt of how hezbollah works its magic, cnn and the nyt wont have this
cnn or the nyt post this?
Maybe the Rt. Reverend will visit the families of these Lebanese when he visits, and speak out for them when he returns (to Israel, where he operates freely): Christians Fleeing Lebanon Denounce Hezbollah
The refugees from southern Lebanon spilled out of packed cars into the dark street here Thursday evening, gulping bottles of water and squinting in the glare of the headlights to find family members and friends. Many had not eaten in days. Most had not had clean drinking water for some time. There were wounded swathed in makeshift dressings, and a baby just 16 days old.
But for some of the Christians who had made it out in this convoy, it was not just privations they wanted to talk about, but their ordeal at the hands of Hezbollah — a contrast to the Shiites, who make up a vast majority of the population in southern Lebanon and broadly support the militia.
“Hezbollah came to Ain Ebel to shoot its rockets,” said Fayad Hanna Amar, a young Christian man, referring to his village. “They are shooting from between our houses.”
“Please,’’ he added, “write that in your newspaper.”…
…Many Christians from Ramesh and Ain Ebel considered Hezbollah’s fighting methods as much of an outrage as the Israeli strikes. Mr. Amar said Hezbollah fighters in groups of two and three had come into Ain Ebel, less than a mile from Bint Jbail, where most of the fighting has occurred. They were using it as a base to shoot rockets, he said, and the Israelis fired back.
One woman, who would not give her name because she had a government job and feared retribution, said Hezbollah fighters had killed a man who was trying to leave Bint Jbail.
“This is what’s happening, but no one wants to say it” for fear of Hezbollah, she said…
…a person affiliated with the United States Embassy arrived in Yaroun and shouted for everyone to join a convoy that the Israelis had promised safe passage…
from http://www.solomonia.com/blog/ part way down.
I am waiting for the newspapers
July 29th, 2006 at 1:59 am
I am pro hezbollah, simply because they are brave enough to bully the bully.
I just don’t like their name, I dunno why everybody has to go all religious when their making a resistance, just name it the Lebanese resistance, the Americans love it when you name your shit something like that, they jump all over it.
July 29th, 2006 at 1:59 am
Several people shot at a Jewish cultural center close to home (for me, Seattle) - one was fatally wounded.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060729/ap_on_re_us/seattle_shooting
Other reports state that the shooter was a Pakistani Muslim man.
Police are said to be baffled about the motive….
….baffled I tell you.
(I’m sure he was selective and shot only “Zionists,” not just any Jews.)
July 29th, 2006 at 2:07 am
It may have been easier for Israel to win in 1967 because it was fighting a conventional war against conventional armies. This time the situation is a bit trickier, with a guerilla army (as well-stocked as a conventional army but still guerillas) installed in civilian areas where they endanger the innocents around them, yet where they can hit at Israeli civilians with impunity.
In this situation, getting touch would mean getting tough on innocent Lebanese civilians as well as on Hizbollah fighters. Sandmonkey, you cannot blame the IDF (rightly, in my view) for reacting harshly and incurring civilian casualties on the one hand, and then on the other say that the Israelis are going soft because…well…they won’t act more harshly than they already have.
I think that the Israelis are trying to find a juste milieu, be touch enough to hit at Hizbollah yet careful enough to try to avoid civilian casualties where they can, but only where they can. Maybe that’s why there have been hundreds of civilian casualties instead of thousands. Ii don’t know.
As I said, it is harder to fight this kind of war than a conventional one. The Americans learned that in Viet Nam. They were there for 10 years…and lost.
July 29th, 2006 at 2:21 am
I read your arguments and most of them are irrelevant. The only point which matters is that you have to get back to the economics and psychology of the situation - because that sits underneath the politics.
Here is the true solution to Middle East, and world peace:
clickabletext
July 29th, 2006 at 2:42 am
#43: The Americans never lost a single military battle in Vietnam. Not one. They simply quit. They went home and watched TV.
If the Israelis quit, they have no place to go.
July 29th, 2006 at 3:29 am
Tonight at least 26 Hezbollah fighters were killed while trying to infiltrate areas around Bint Jbeil. The Israeli’s suffered only a few lightly wounded casualties. This shows the world that the really well trained Hezbollah fighters are dead. Untrained idiots are now charging into battle for Hezbollah. Soon it is going to be a turkey shoot for the Israelis. Time to quit for Hezbollah.
July 29th, 2006 at 3:35 am
Re: #45, additional info
All U.S. combat troops left Vietnam by March 29, 1973. Saigon fell two years later (April 30, 1975) after the collapse of the South Vietnamese military.
The famous film footage of departing American helicopters during the fall of Saigon involved civilian personnel and Marine Corps guards from the U.S. Embassy, not American combat troops.
July 29th, 2006 at 3:49 am
I keep seeing this ‘resistance’ appelation applied to Hizballah and maybe, sometime long ago in the past, it may have applied. If they are ‘resistance’, why do they target civilians? If they are ‘resistance’ why is it they who hide in the bunkers and tunnel complexes and not those they are obligated to protect? If the ‘resistance’ fought only the IDF, even using whatever means necessary, then I would consider them true resistance. The French Resistance during WWII did just that. They raided German weapons caches, depots and compounds. They ambushed patrols and generally tried to make life miserable for the occupiers. Yes, they may have shot/assasinated informers but a spy isn’t exactly an innocent civilian. The facts are showing that Hizb isn’t doing this. They launch missles, not at IDF C2 and munitions compounds, but at cities. The Germans did this in WWII and it was considered bad form even then.
The Shebaa farms issue is a canard. It is only brought up, time and time again, in an attempt to legitimize Hizballah’s ‘resistance’. The ONLY map that showed Shebaa belonging to Lebanon was proved to be a forgery (confirmed by Walid Jumblatt). Every map prior to ‘67 showed Syria as owner. Since UNR 242 keeps being brought up by Arab politicos as a means to pin Israel down to the ‘67 borders, the Shabaa issue won’t be settled until Syria trades land for peace with Israel and can then give Shebaa back to Lebanon. (The land was demarcated as Syrian during the French Mandate in the ’30s and left in Syrian administration after they evacuated. Even after an agreement in ‘64 between Lebanon and Syria, indicating that the land should be Lebanese, no official action was taken. Maps of both nations armies from that time period show the land as belonging to Syria.)
Barring all this - lets just for a moment say you can convince me that Hizb is a legitimate ‘resistance’. Ok. Then they are armed members of a party which forms the government of Lebanon. As such any action they take represents Lebanon as a state. That said, armed members of a governmental party have violated internationally recognized borders and killed/captured members of another sovereign states armed forces. Such action can be construed as an act of war. Israel has every right to eleminate any threat it deems undermines the security of it’s citizens. Every state has this obligation (Lebanon too). This means they can stop with the warning leaflets and selective bombing. They can take out Beruits central power grid and the Paris of the middle east into darkness. They can start carpet bombing.
The difference between the IDF and Hizballah is that the IDF kills civilians when they miss their target - Hizballah kills civilians when they hit their target.
July 29th, 2006 at 3:54 am
Jesus H. Christ!
All this defeatism. This is going to be a somewhat bloody battle. I mean, we are talking about battling guerrillas hidden among the civilian population. Losses are to be expected.
I hear people talking about the imminent defeat of Israel after the loss of a few dozen soldiers. Ridiculous.
What has war come to these days? I’m glad we didn’t have these moonbats and media assclowns back during WWII or the Civil War.
Can you imagine the first loss by the Union forces:
“Quagmire! We’re done for! It is all lost! Preserving the Union and abolishing slavery was a great cause and all, but is it really worth it?”
Or during the indiscriminant shelling of hostile German towns harboring Nazi resistance fighters in the immediate aftermath of Germany’s defeat in the Second World War (which, among other strategies, proved to be highly effective, BTW - if you ever want a textbook example of successfully crushing a guerrilla movement - look at the defeat of the Nazi resistance):
“War Crimes! Impeach FDR! We are no better than our enemy now! Disproportionate response!”
July 29th, 2006 at 4:10 am
AP: “Hezbollah politicians, while expressing reservations, have joined their critics in the government in agreeing to a peace package that includes strengthening an international force in south Lebanon and disarming the guerrillas, the government said.”
The thing speaks for itself.
July 29th, 2006 at 4:54 am
According to a British researcher, Denmark is the world’s happiest country. That Muslim boycott of Denmark over Danish cartoon sure worked well, didn’t it?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/hsn/20060728/hl_hsn/danesarethehappieststudysays
July 29th, 2006 at 4:58 am
“If the U.S. military were not enough, a couple of million American military vets would flow into Israel as mercenaries to help defend the Israelis.”
The above quote on this thread reminded me of some comments and a few posts I have seen on the web for the last few months. The are about large corporations starting up mercenary operations. There is a large and growing supply of combat veterans in the U.S. looking for good paying jobs with good benifits. There also is a large supply of older vets that want to serve but are too old to get in the U.S. Military.
The thinking is that these mercenaries could be hired out to countries that had problems but not the military to take care of it. Such as Lebanon, Egypt, Iran and Saudi Arabia.
The people would have to come up with the cash first of course, because corporations don’t work on credit with customers who don’t have a good credit record with them.
But think of it, hire your own army.
Just like in the old days.
Papa Ray
July 29th, 2006 at 5:08 am
Yawn. This is a soccer war. No disrespect to the dead Israeli’s and Lebanese, but it is.
July 29th, 2006 at 5:17 am
#52: Here is one of the companies
http://blackwaterusa.com/
July 29th, 2006 at 6:45 am
I think Egypt should white wash it’s hand of the arab israeli conflict. I simply do not care what happens in Israel or in Lebanon.
Egyptians should stop embarracing themselves with chanting and dancing around like idiots (because that’s all they can do) and concentrate on increasing their yearly incomes and feeding their kids first.
It’s bull fucking shit how this never ending circle of violence just seems to gain bigger and bigger momentum. It’s like fight fever, lebanese and israelis fight and the whole place wants to follow suit.
Israel and hizbollah fighting is simply an over glorified police operation. It’s not really a war. It’s like two rappers feuding and the media calls it war instead of two niggaz beefing.
I simply don’t give a fuck about lebanon or hezbollah or Israel. Outside of the hot tv chicks with the skimpy as skirts…god how i’d love to bend them down over a table and give them good old burgering..from the great Egyptian Cannon!
July 29th, 2006 at 7:04 am
This war is not some podunk reaction to kidnapping of soldiers, or even about getting these poor kids back - thats political bullshit. This war is about decades of attacks by Arab nations and Iran. The reasons for the attacks and emnity have changed since the turn of the century but the attacking nations haven’t. From Nasserism to Terrorism to Indigenous Nationalism to Moral Justification - Arab Nations and Iran have a lot of excuses for why they want to kill all of Israel and whipe it off the map.
This war is Israel’s way of saying WE DONT CARE. The Arab Nations and Iran have betrayed us for a century now and we’ve had it. People who swear to Allah that they will murder and oust us into the sea are not worthy of any empathy and they certainly aren’t worthy a State.
If God ever decides to soften these bastards hearts, they are more than welcome to live side by side with us in the name of peace. But since God hasn’t done this, and the Arab Nations and Iran REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY want to kill us, then let them try, and WHEN they get scortched, then Israel will reason that the Arab nations (+ Iran) declared us an enemy, we’re just TRYING to read the fucking newspaper here and could give a rats ass about the logic.
July 29th, 2006 at 9:43 am
My Dear SandMonkey,
I am not challenging your good ethics. But your challenges to Muslims are out of context, and if you were to look at the strategic alliances of those you may have aligned yourself with, the first question you need to ask is , should I choose one side or should I choose all sides.
Do we really need to choose a side. Cheer for ours to out kill theirs. To test the depths to which our “side” can plunge into sub-human kill competition?
Is that what bng a Jew, a Mislim - a Christian is really all about.
There was a time religion was all about the magic of life - and now we have allowed our churces to become death cults.
The word has certainly come a long way since it was first spoken - a very long way indeed.
Allow a “knit picking” of your questionaire:
“Convince me that Hezbollah aren’t Syria’s agents in Lebanon”
I would answer, “What difference does it make?”
Irs the suggestion we should continue killing each other, until some “conflcit” offical officially records the rights and wrongs - about the this’s or that’s.
Is that like old school conflict resolution - no one gets to stop killing anyone until we get to the botton of Hezbulla - Syrian Agents [thingie] in Lebanon” - when that question is answered, we at least on a path that may stop the killing stop?
Now what if SandMonkey does not like the answer. In that case, would we take two steps back - or is it only one since it is the sabeth?
Tell me Sand Monkey, that the Christian Militia in Lebanon are not the agents of Israel in Lebanon.
Lets turn the sanctimony on ourselves:
“On 11 September 1982, Israeli Defence Minister Ariel Sharon, the architect of the invasion, announced that “2,000 terrorists” had remained inside the Palestinian refugee camps .. On Wednesday 15 September, the day after the assassination of Israeli-allied Phalangist … and Lebanese President-elect Bashir Gemayel, the Israeli army occupied West Beirut, “encircling and sealing” the camps of Sabra and Shatila, which were inhabited by Lebanese and Palestinian civilians. By mid-day on 15 September 1982, the refugee camps were entirely surrounded by Israeli tanks and soldiers, who installed checkpoints at strategic locations and crossroads around the camps in order to monitor the entry or exit of any person. During the late afternoon and evening of that day, the camps were shelled.
Around mid-day on Thursday 16 September 1982, a unit of approximately 150 Israeli-allied Phalangists entered the first camp. For the next 40 hours members of the Phalangist militia raped, killed, and injured a large number of unarmed civilians, mostly children, women and elderly people inside the encircled and sealed camps. The estimate of victims varies between 700 (the official Israeli figure) to 3,500. The victims and survivors of the massacres have never been deemed entitled to a formal investigation of the tragedy, since Israel’s Kahan Commission did not have a judicial mandate and was not backed up by legal force.”
The question you asked of Muslims, could be asked of you.
An it would be just as meaningless of our “pressing” context, the killing - the theft of the humanity of those IDF , IAF and Hezbulla forced into this fight so US weapons could be spent.
The reason this is happening is not the Jews fault - it’s not the Israelis falult - it’s not the sandniggers fault.
Tell me that the extortion of trillions and trillions of credits a year from [our] global treasurey, and trillions from global consumers for war premium oil (at 4 times it’s fucking fair value) would not be a motive for criminals to stage a false flag terrorist event as a pretext - and use our church to enslave us as hate bait pawns so we will die kill murder while the war lords and oil barrons rob our descendants and fuck our sisters.
It’s not about Abraham - Jew or SandNigger. It’s not about right or wrong - it’s about getting us killed while they rob us fucking blind.
Get it?
Peace
and they can fuck our sisters?
is the only logical motive for all this Jew Muslim hate bait murder death fucking kill.
You are being used Israel - and it has nothing to do with faith or the “Jew”. It’s gold - gold the Jew will never see so much gold one could buy yhe world with it - you’re emotion shave been hijacked -
Fucking fools - you think you’re righteous and your just dancing monkeys forpeople so rich you will never know their name - your church - your weakness - is all being used against you so the war lords and oil barron proffit from the phony balony false flag fraud - “the war to exterminate sandniggers”.
Ain’t no such thing as a half-racist - or a racist intellectual.
Who’s making money - and who looks funny.,
I saw those young IDF back from their foray inside the border - they should not be subjected to this so the setllement industry can get more free land more free money. Those young IDF should not be forced to behave as sub humans so the bullet factories in Galalee profit. So General Electric and Loxkheed can get trillions.
It’s a fraud - and your rage is a cultivation - a theartre - an accomplice to a crime that has extorted billions from earths stake holders.
I saw the young HezBulla figters - wow - they are certainly disciplined they run - forward - to the battle - at battle speed wearing the same personal armor the IDF do - they did not look as shell shocked as the IDF - but they were also young - they should not be forced to exorcise their lethal fearless discipline.
Now we hear IAF is straffing with DU. So much DU from Iraq - and now more in Lebanon -
You are poinsoning yourselves to enure the wealth of those who care no more for a Jew than the SandNigger - you do this
July 29th, 2006 at 9:46 am
Blold off
July 29th, 2006 at 12:31 pm
[...] meint der Sandmonkey mal wieder. [...]
July 29th, 2006 at 12:36 pm
Cadavre,
It’s “nit-picking,” not “knit-picking”.
/irony off
July 29th, 2006 at 12:56 pm
This conflict is really escalating by the minute: first italics and then bold…
July 29th, 2006 at 1:05 pm
So many tired memes in one post. Nothing like recycling talking points.
July 29th, 2006 at 1:07 pm
It’s wrong to compare urban fighting against dug-in non-uniformed opponents to maneuver battle out in the open against traditional armies. The Six Day War was a maneuver battle between armored divisions.
Hizb’Allah is more like a cross between the Japanese on Okinawa, Hitler’s rocket forces, and the usual jihadi zealots. It will take much longer to root them out. But Israel will win if given enough time. Which is why the usually dormant international community is trying to clamp down on Israeli action. Any other conflict and it would be years before anything would be done, IF anything was done.
July 29th, 2006 at 1:15 pm
Case in point - Sudan.
July 29th, 2006 at 2:04 pm
Chip,
“IF anything was done.”
I believe you mean “IF anything were done.”
Just a little more knit-picking. I mean, nit-picking.
/Joking!
July 29th, 2006 at 2:11 pm
Well Sandmonkey, you know what they say, “Those that can’t……BLOG”. You never come up with something original or anything remotely significant or relevent. I’m sure many people really desperately want to convince you or “convert” you as you stupidly put it. But guess what idiot, they’re too busy, yes Far Too Busy, getting killed to do that right now. This isn’t about you or Hizballah for that matter. This is a war and an unequal one at that. Hizbullah are not here now as an islamist group, in context of current events, they’re the Lebanese resistance.This means all muslims and christians are behind them. Possibly most the Arab nations and Arabs all over the world. The same arabs you disrespect. Naturally any view that disagrees with your own should be discredited. But at times like this, ideologies and ideologues are the most repulsive things. Humanity or the lack of it become highlighted by such ugly wars. This can be seen throughout history. The fact that nothing can justify what’s happenning is of no interest to you and many people on this blog. So keep talking crap but do not pretend to have a clue and don’t fool yourself into thinking that anyone wants or cares to change your “mind”, and i use the word mind loosely here. If i was alive at the time of the Nazis and the Holocaust i’d have spoken against it and it wouldn’t have been easy. But keep chatting shit while history repeats itself.
July 29th, 2006 at 2:19 pm
Leila, thats just a lie, Hezbollah calls the current conflict a Jihad and calls on muslims to use the Palestinian cause as a spearhead for global Jihad.
July 29th, 2006 at 2:21 pm
Dan,
If you’re referring to Cadavre, I think maybe you’re wrong. It’s a little hard to follow his argument because it’s:
1) embedded in histrionics
2) laden in the offensive language of hate
3) devoid of anything like an objective secondary source to substantiate it
4) often written allegorically
5) unusual (if I get it right), and
6) in bold face, figuratively, even when not literally
Still, he (she? Not sure, but does it matter? English badly needs a gender-neutral personal pronoun.)…Anyway, Cadavre suggests that the animosity between Israeli and Arab (or is it Jew and Muslim?) has been stirred up by corporations who stand to profit from the respective military build-ups of both sides.
Might there be a kernel of truth in it. Without saying that it is true, you have to admit that it MIGHT have some truth. You just have to look at the warnings of Dwight Eisenhower, a legitimate and effective warrior in his time, about the emergence of the Military-Industrial Complex. Certainly, the military leaders of all sides would be flipping shawarma, kabobs, burgers, etc., if there were no conflict to participate in.
OTOH, is he suggesting that HA is a stooge for the American Military industry? That Boeing prodded Nasrallah to abduct the Israeli soldiers and lob rockets onto Kiriat 8? That, when pulling back to the UN mandated blue line, Israel was thinking about going further, and pulling back behind