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Monday, 31 Jul 2006
That didn't take long!
The Israeli air force carried out strikes Monday in southern Lebanon
despite an agreement to halt raids for 48 hours after nearly 60
Lebanese civilians were killed in an Israeli bombing, the army said.The airstrikes near the village of Taibe were meant to protect
ground forces operating in the area and were not targeting anyone or
anything specific, the army said.Meanwhile, Hezbollah guerrillas attacked an Israeli tank in southern
Lebanon, wounding three soldiers, the military said. The attack
occurred near the villages of Kila and Taibe on border, where Israeli
ground forces have been fighting Hezbollah guerrillas for nearly two
weeks.
Fantastic.
In other great news:
But Israeli Defense Minister Amir Peretz made clear in a speech to
parliament that Israel would not agree to an immediate cease-fire and
had plans to expand its operation in Lebanon."It's forbidden to agree to an immediate cease-fire," Peretz told
parliament, as several Arab legislators heckled him and demanded an
immediate halt to the offensive. "Israel will expand and strengthen its
activities against the Hezbollah."
This is not going to end soon is it?
You know what this is like to watch? It's like watching a fight between two men. One of them stabs the other with a knife, so the other slaps him on the face really hard, so the first one stabs him with a knife again and the other retaliates with another slap and so on and so forth. Both are waiting for the other to say Uncle, and neither are willing to do it first. This is a war with no winners, and it has regressed into an exercise of stubborn stupidity. Too bad it's of the fatal kind!
This conflict is soo stupid!
July 31st, 2006 at 11:56 am
All conflicts are stupid. That’s why sane, rational people try not to start them.
July 31st, 2006 at 12:18 pm
OH MY GOD! THERE’S STILL DUMBASSES WHO ACTUALLY THINK THE “WAR ON TERROR” IS REALLY ABOUT “FREEDOM” AND “DEMOCRACY” AND NOT “OIL”, “MONEY” AND “EXCUSES TO SHOW MILITARY POWER”! LOOK AT ISRAEL.
July 31st, 2006 at 12:37 pm
You guys really need to learn some forgiveness — that’s what Christ taught.
Ok, go ahead and keep hating each other…. how is HATE working out for you????
Jesus saves.
July 31st, 2006 at 12:41 pm
Ayyaz. Over the top, as usual. This war is about terrorism, for sure. And the show of force is meant to annhilate the bastards for good. Betcha Nasrallah doesn’t do that again.
July 31st, 2006 at 12:56 pm
I’m being serious here –
What would it take for one side (or even in the wider israeli-palestinian conflict), what would it take for one side to just say “ok. enough. I forgive you for what you did to me. let’s live in peace”
That would be the Christ-like solution, and it sounds silly to even pretend to apply it here, right?…. except, maybe it could? Would there ever be a way
Would one ’side’ ever say “i forgive you” and bury the hatchet?? Doesn’t everyone see that the whole “death to israel” from 48 on, and the whole “create a buffer zone” with sinai or s. lebanon just leads to MORE WAR???
Is this a pipe dream, but seriously, WHAT has to happen for one side to do this???
(Or am I just out of my mind and should keep this idea at my church?)
July 31st, 2006 at 12:57 pm
Christ taught forgiveness yes.
He also drove out moneylenders from the temple with a whip. Got Old Testament on their butts.
Only one side in this conflict really really hates. It’s part of their charter. It’s what they teach to their youth.
Jesus saves! Gretzkey steals .. he scores!
July 31st, 2006 at 1:02 pm
True dan - Jesus drove the rich moneychangers out of the temple - though “with a whip” isn’t entirely true if you look at older bibles…
**Notice, he didn’t kill them, or even strike them or hit them….he just said “hey, get outta here!” kidna like a guy saying “hey kids! get off my lawn!”
And truth be told, I agree, the whole “israel has no right to exist” bit is damning… and Israel has been promised “land for peace”, so they gave up land:
~sinai in 77
~more sinai in 82
~cities near hebron & in w bank in 95
~lebanon in 00
~gaza in 05
… yet they have no peace
BUT~just when i think israel has the ‘moral authority’, they go and pull a Qana — and now we see more war and more hate.
SOMEONE eventually has to say ” I FORGIVE YOU, LET’S MOVE ON!” to succeed.
BUT NO ONE WILL! ANd we will have more war for centuries.
July 31st, 2006 at 1:09 pm
BJ - in all seriousness - one side has.
“ok. enough. I forgive you for what you did to me. let’s live in peace”
1979 - Egypt and Israel sign peace accords. Egypt regains the Sinai under UNR 242. Doesn’t want the Gaza.
1994 - Jordon signs peace accords with Isreal. They are the only other bordering country that has signed such accords with Israel
2000 - Israel pulls out of S. Lebanon per UNR 1559. Gives land back to Lebanon
2005 - Israel pulls out of the Gaza Strip.
July 31st, 2006 at 1:11 pm
Dan, you shouldn’t keep posting… you’re making sense to me!
July 31st, 2006 at 1:17 pm
Yes, Dan. You’re also making me laugh. “Jesus saves! Gretzkey steals .. he scores! “
July 31st, 2006 at 1:17 pm
BJHoboJarns: “BUT~just when i think israel has the ‘moral authority’, they go and pull a Qana”
Just to repeat someone else’s link: http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/07/milking-it.html
Don’t believe everything you see .. didn’t David Copperfield teach you that yet?
Seriously, it was wayyyyyyyyy to Hollywood.
July 31st, 2006 at 1:22 pm
Jason from Toronto…
That is making me shudder
I usually question the timing of AP photo shots and all, but with Qana i just assumed “it was a mistake by Israel but very tragic”…… that is a VERY important link!!!!!!!!!
You need to post that as many places as you can!
Isn’t that creeping anyone else out????????????????? There is a dead body and they are STAGING things with it????????????
Ugh, now I don’t know whether to be creeped out or hyper-skeptical….
That is not right, but I’ll post it now too
http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/07/milking-it.html
http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/07/milking-it.html
http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/07/milking-it.html
July 31st, 2006 at 1:22 pm
“BUT~just when i think israel has the ‘moral authority’, they go and pull a Qana — and now we see more war and more hate.”
To say that Israel is the only party at fault in Qana is a canard that Hizb is trying to sell you. Why hide your missle launchers in apartment complexes full of people if not to use their deaths as propoganda. And it seems to have been a successful media campeign. The UN security council condemed the action (doesnt take much to get them to condemn Israel really). The world media bought the story hook, line and sinker. Mounting pressure at home caused Israel to pause their air campaign (which only serves Hizbs purposes and extends the situation).
BJ - I do think we’re on the same page just opposite ends of the sheet. War is hell. It has to be so. It is an extension of diplomacy and should be used sparringly. When used, it should be fought with as much fury and aggression then halted immediately when the states objectives have been reached.
July 31st, 2006 at 1:28 pm
Have a look at this with regard to Qana.
July 31st, 2006 at 1:37 pm
to add to my last post:
Fortunately for Israel, Hamas and Hizballah’s aims (genocide) cannot match their ability. Unfortunately for the Lebanese and Palestinians that only want peace, their governments (Hamas moreso than Lebanon) have started a war which they cannot win without external intervention. Until they learn to fight for their freedoms they will never be free.
July 31st, 2006 at 2:28 pm
I cannot agree that Israel “pulled a Qana” and deliberately killed civilians. How would they know that the people were in that particular building? They couldn’t. This is a war, and in terms of “proportionality” which everyone keeps throwing at Israel, let’s put this in perspective: In WWII, Churchill and the British military fire bombed Germany, killed over 1.8 million German people (men, women, and CHILDREN) prior to their ground offensive. In response to “Pearl Harbor”, the US waged a four year campaign against Japan, killed MILLIONS OF JAPANESE people and dropping two nuclear bombs on major Japanese cities, destroying the major Japanese home islands. The critics of Israel’s defense in Europe have forgotten these facts conveniently, it seems. Israel could end this conflict in an hour, if they wanted to end it militarily, but for them the civilian harm to the innocent Lebanese people would be too great.
No country ever in the history of the world or now, has taken the care that Israel has to avoid harming civilians. No one! They broadcast warnings in Arabic from their Arabic-Israeli radio stations, drop leaflets, and even try to call inhabitants by phone!! What were those people still doing in the middle of the war zone? They could have moved away from Hezbollah’s firing positions—UNLESS HEZBOLLAH WOULD NOT ALLOW THEM TO. There are many unanswered questions about this, but one thing is clear: Israel did not and does not deliberately target civilians, and Hezbollah has rained down over 1500 missles with only the purpose of targeting civilians. So, what is this garbage about Israel’s deliberate targeting of those unfortunate people?? It is a war and there are always unintentional actions against civilians. Several of the IDF were killed by friendly fire, was that intentional? Of course not!
I hate conflict but I don’t know what choice Israel had in this matter. When Hamas and Hezbollah only want you dead, there is not much point in talking or negotiating. For peace to work, there must be two committed partners to peace. I am very peace-loving, and truth be told, I am a “Put- my- head -in -the sand-I-Don’t-Want-To-Know-About- Problems “type person. That is not good, but there it is. However, since my stubborn, head-strong daughter decided to live in Israel, I am very much now concerned about this issue. I have in the past avoided issues that I felt helpless to correct or contribute a solution to, now I wish I knew what to do to help resolve this conflict. I don’t have a clue what to do or where to start. It is a mess. Making it worse, is the biased, anti-semitic reporting on this issue in the media, particularly the BBC.
July 31st, 2006 at 3:00 pm
Awww……so glad you don’t find it “funny” anymore sandmonkey - Only a few days ago you were finding the description of the “child giving a bloody nose to the poking child who deserved it” sooo amusing…
You’re still missing the point with this paradigm though, it’s not Isr against Hesb, it’s the destruction of Lebanon and hundreds of Lebanese civilians that’s going on
July 31st, 2006 at 3:19 pm
eh?
We all know how to stop this mess. The full proposal, by a former Lebanese prime minister, is in today’s Wall Street Journal.
It starts with, first, you recognize that Jews have a right to life, just like everybody else…..
July 31st, 2006 at 3:25 pm
See, the problem is, HA will never surrender, due to a twisted conception of ‘honour’, and Israel will never surrender, because for Israel that equals annhilation.
Ergo, no one is safe.
July 31st, 2006 at 3:28 pm
This is sad, in so many ways.
That photographers can mere tools of propagandists, that the dead are nothing but props to be used. It is impossible to justify.
Sickening.
Worse, it destroys the feelings of outrage and anger, because we can never be sure if it’s the truth, or a staged lie.
http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/07/milking-it.html
July 31st, 2006 at 3:38 pm
Personally speaking, I would not slap someone who had a knife and was prepared to use it. Doesnt really make sense to do so, unless of course you’re the type to get excited by the sight of my own blood. And the blood of the people I was trying to protect.
July 31st, 2006 at 3:45 pm
Not exactly relevant to this particular posting, and I’m sure most of you will have seen it, but just in case…
http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=null
July 31st, 2006 at 4:10 pm
Great headline for satirical newspaper:
Arab World Outraged that Non-Sunni Extremists can kill Shiites with Impunity.
July 31st, 2006 at 4:31 pm
I agree the conflict is stupid. The whole Arab-Israeli war thing is stupid… If Hizbollah would simply acknowledge that Israel has a right to exist, and stop attacking Jews, then the fighting would cease… BUT, if Hizbollah acknowledged Israel, then Hizbollah has no reason to exist, no reason to arm themselves, no reason to kill Jews… The Arabs could have had, and can have, peace any time they want it, the problem is they don’t want it. Israel is too good a distraction diverting attention from their own failures.
The conflict is stupid, but is there another way to encourage Hizbollah to change their goals, to change their raison d’etre? How long must Israel absorb Arab attacks simply for existing?
July 31st, 2006 at 4:54 pm
This is disgusting…really! The international community and every source imaginable from Al-Jazeera to Jerusalem post acknowledges that there were civilian casualties at Qana of over 50 people, mostly children. To suggest doctored photos or foul play so early, to me, displays a bias and a complete unwillingness to hold certain people accountable for wrong doings. If Qana is a lie and propoganda then the campaign to say it didnt happen is propoganda coming from the other side. Would it be so hard for people to say, “yes I agree with Israel but I feel that what they did in Qana was wrong, whether it be a mistake or not”
July 31st, 2006 at 5:04 pm
Shobrawy, those who died were not a lie. Those who used their death later aren’t a lie either, though. You don’t get that many shots, with the same person, just like that. And all of them with a dramatic pose, too.
Yes, what happened in Qana is wrong. All sides included. Be it Israel, Hezbollah, or that bastard who posed shots with the bodies.
Those people did not deserve to die.
July 31st, 2006 at 5:12 pm
I think neither you or I are in a position to say this guy posed for pictures. I think your persepective is one more willing to villainize factors of Qana instead of condemning it all together. To buy what your saying I think you have to act with a little bias, and I dont think you realize it but what do those pictures prove, I really dont see what your saying. The pictures say this
-Multiple pictures were taken of the same man and child.
To suggest hes milking it is a strech, It could be true but the evidence provided doesnt verify that. It seems that some people are more willing to believe the unlikely than the likely
July 31st, 2006 at 5:20 pm
DB, no one has said that what happened wasn’t wrong.
What a number of us have pointed out has been the disgusting exploitation of bodies of dead kids, that there are some serious questions of fault here.
I’ve said it before, and I will say it again. I don’t care whose kids get killed, its wrong. Period. Who’s to blame for Qana? It looked initially like Israel, but as facts are emerging, footage and data being analyzed, this is now questionable.
I view this like the Gaza beach incident. Israel regretted that immensely, Hamas went to town with it, exploited it like mad. Sadly, Hamas never admitted responsibility, though the evidence against it was damning. Specifically they claimed that Israel shelled the beach killing the people there. The shrapnel removed from some of the victims, the ones that the palis doctors had not gouged out first, demonstrated that it was not from any munition Israel fired. That is was from a pali munition.
Haven’t heard much about this in the arab press though. What would it do to morale of the palis knowing that hamas is killing them or using their deaths for propaganda purposes?
Absolutely sickening in any case.
Kids are dead DB. They are dead because hezbullah couldn’t contain its hard-on, kickstarted a hot shooting war. Blame Israel if you want, but understand that the kids did not have to die. Nor did any of the Lebanese. The country did not need to go through what it is now.
Cessation of hostilities cannot begin until hezbullah is gone.
July 31st, 2006 at 5:29 pm
D.B, those were several children he was holding up for the camera, not just one. And again, such poses simply don’t happen on their own.
July 31st, 2006 at 5:33 pm
Maybe you’re right, though. Maybe it’s just by bias speaking. But one of the things I hate the most is people dancing on the blood, be it in Israel, Lebanon, or anywhere in the world. A photographer who makes such shots demeans himself. A politician who bases his support on death demeans himself.
That’s why I don’t like Binyamin Netanyahu much, D.B, though he’s an expert economist and as stable a leader as any.
July 31st, 2006 at 6:12 pm
DB - I think this Canadian editorial sums up best how I feel about Qana:
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/editorialsletters/story.html?id=18ca12a7-84bc-4b33-9b2b-1dfe3cbcce30&k=7612
Key graf:
“Nothing that we or anyone else write will ease the agony wrought in Qana and the many other places — on both sides of the Lebanese-Israeli border — where innocents have perished. But mercifully, we in Canada are not in that situation. Our removal from the conflict gives us the ability to look beyond the immediate carnage, and examine the deeper intentions of the parties to this war. And according to both civilized morality and international law, it is not Israel that has the blood of innocents on its hands, but Hezbollah.”
So no - I will not condemn Israel for striking the building that was being used to house the missles that were being targeted at Israeli civilians. The onus of protecting civilians from harm lies with the state. Israel complied with that duty by taking out the launcher. Hizballah, as part of the Lebanon’s government, has an implicit duty to protect it’s citizens. By gathering their fellow Lebanese into buildings they know will be targeted by the IDF they are failing in their duty to protect. Thus, the burden of this tragedy lies with Hizballah.
July 31st, 2006 at 7:01 pm
Dan #31,
What you said.
And let us not forget the obligation of the Lebanese government - regardless of whether HA is part of the government or no - to do whatever is necessary to ensure that its territory is not used as a base of attacks on another soverign state. Both in terms of international law, and in terms of protecting its own citizens.
I grieve for the innocent victims of violence everywhere.
I also insist on assigning culpability where it is due.
If we, as a civilization, will ever take steps in preventing this kind of carnage in the future, the proper assignment of blame is essential. Otherwise we can learn no lessons, and are doomed to repeat this ad infinitum.
July 31st, 2006 at 8:27 pm
None of this matters. Pretty soon everybody will be speaking Chinese:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/5230778.stm
July 31st, 2006 at 9:13 pm
DB - Everyone is biased. Deal with it.
Your belief that since it is in pictures makes it real, makes Israel culpable, is a bias. Also your unwillingness to consider that maybe it was either staged or at least exploited gives more power to ‘Hezbollywood’ to continue it. Examine the timeframes of the pictures, examine the names of the different photographers. Question why if the roads are so impassible that the press made it out in droves. Question why no one was allowed in. Question why Hezbollah has been killing “suspected collaborators”.
Remember Nasrallah said they had more “surprises”. What do you think they are exactly? Could this have been one of them?
BrooklynJon - Just because someone died doesn’t grant them the status of “innocenct”. To quote one jihadi “No kuffah is innocent” and now to paraphrase it “No supporter of Hezbollah is innocent”.
July 31st, 2006 at 10:44 pm
iam not very into politics and i dont know much shit compared to u ppl but i just wanna know..
what gives israel the right to exist? They came from no where 60 years ago and occupied the Palestinians and killed them. Why should they live in peace?
July 31st, 2006 at 11:12 pm
#35, you can fine the answer here, Anwar. Start at the beginning.
http://www.holybible.com/
July 31st, 2006 at 11:41 pm
“Ok, go ahead and keep hating each other…. how is HATE working out for you????
Jesus saves.”
Yeah, you can rely on Jesus and prayer to save your ass from terrorism. I’d rather rely on force and deterrents.
Jesus didn’t save the world from Hitler or from communism, force and deterrents did.
I’ll bank on that.
August 1st, 2006 at 12:00 am
#37: “I’d rather rely on force and deterrents.”
Me, too. I also would use overwhelming force, not proportional response.
I prefer to solve problems, not “manage” them.
August 1st, 2006 at 12:13 am
“what gives israel the right to exist? They came from no where 60 years ago and occupied the Palestinians and killed them. Why should they live in peace?”
Well .. since you asked so nicely …
That land - you know the ones the Israelis currently occupy - was given to them by God.
Now .. they have been conquered by many other empires in the region (Assyrians, Babylonians, Egyptians, Persians, etc) over the years until the Roman Empire came in and made it permanent in 132 BCE by calling the land Syria Palestina after the Israelites ancient enemies the Philistines. The Arabs didn’t really enter the scene until 638 CE and the expansion of the Caliphate.
Now … you say they didnt come into existance until 60 years ago. Even if you discount ancient history, Jewish immegration back to the lands of their forefathers started around 1881 - yes thats right - 125 years ago. They didn’t ‘occupy the Palestinians’ because there are no Palestinians. The idea of the State of Palestine existing before 1984 is a canard. The area was called Palestine by the Romans and the subsiquent Arab, Turk, French and English masters didn’t see fit to change the name. All Jews, Arabs, Turks, etc living in that region can technically be called Palestinians.
I didn’t delve into the complext Arab/Jewish history because I wanted to finish this post sometime tonight. Of course you probably don’t believe me anyway because this isn’t what you were taught and I’m part of that vast ZioniCapitaliBushHitlerNeoCon conspiracy. But you did ask. And I answered in the hopes that it may prompt you to put away the books you are given at school and access other resources to gain a greater perspective. Knowledge is power.
August 1st, 2006 at 12:23 am
Kazem my hero
PEACE To Lebanon
August 1st, 2006 at 12:41 am
Actually Anwar the Jews have been in Israel continuously for over 3000 years. As the Ottoman empire was imploding in the late 1800’s, waves of immigrants came in. These immigrants built towns, factories, farms. Lots of migrants from the surrounding arab world joined these immigrants to work the land land and in their factories. You can follow this in the relevant histories of the area before the 1920s.
After that, things started getting rough, with arabs butchering the entire jewish population of Hebron in the 20s. More protests 1936->1939. Then arab collusion with and support for the Nazis in WWII.
During this time, due to the collapse of the Ottoman empire various external empires, also on the decline, were given mandates to help develop the former Ottoman regions into autonomous countries. Before you protest this, the vast majority of the arab world came into being from these processes. Including what was called mandatory palestine. In the 20s, some unknown politician named Winston Churchill unilaterally split mandatory palistine into an 80% east of the Jordan river to hand the the Hashemites, recently ousted from SA. The remaining 20% was intended to fulfill its orginal purpose as indicated by the process begun in the 1880s, to restore the jews to their homeland.
The original land for peace. Hasn’t worked too well since, has it?
Back to history. The league of nations, formed in part to prevent yet another world war, had asked Britian to administer this mandate. The end game was formation of countries. Lots of mistakes were made, lots of biases created. What was supposed to be a mandate for jews was mostly given away. Britian demonstrated unbelievably bias against the jews, and actively overtly and covertly worked against the process they were going through to form a country, and reverse the diaspora.
Now we are at 1939, there has been unrest in the land. The arabs who migrated in to palistine to work with/for the jews were objecting to perceived wrongs. It is possible that there may have been some. All sides were jockeying for position by then, with jews working with/against the british, the british working with/against the jews, and the arabs playing both off each other.
On the eve of WWII, the arabs won political favor from the british, and demanded that there be strong restrictions on jewish immigration. Untold number of jews died as a result of this policy.
Fast forward to 1946. The point that Theodor Herzl had made in 1895 after the french Dryfeus affair was that jews could only be safe in their own lands when they are protecting themselves, was never more self evident. Lots of political back and forth, the UK wanted out of the admin business, it had its hands full dealing with its own crumbling empire, and it could not do much to help the rest of the old Ottoman empire form themselves into countries. They and the French did an exceedingly bad job of it when they created Iraq, Lebanon, and other areas with hostile sectarian interactions.
Brits negotiate an end to the mandate. The UN sees that Herzl was right, and decide to accelerate this process. They want to try to make sure that they do not cause more pain than needed to either side though. They fail miserably, which is largely what they have succeeded at doing from there on out.
The politically contentious parties, jews and arabs are both told to create the basis for states, by creating structures and scaffolds upon which to build a state. The jews get hard at work. The arabs do not.
Fast forward to 1948. The mandate ends, a partition plan is offered. It is a bad deal for the jews, a good deal for the arabs. The jews grumble but accept it. The arabs reject it.
Shortly after the British leave, Israel is declared. 11 minutes later the United States under Harry Truman, officially announces its recognition of the state of Israel. This was done in large part to spite a state department which went off the reservation, and to reign them in.
The US state department has, from there on out, done everything in its power to frustrate that initial recognition.
A day after Israel is created, neighboring arab states invade.
18 months later, an armistice is enforced. Curious, the UN seems to like to enforce these as soon as it looks like the jews start to win.
This is how Israel came into being. A palis state has already come into being, that is Jordan. What you want more land? 99% of the mid east is not enough for you?
Ok, the jews just want peace. So the give up land that they captured in wars of aggression against them, that they have every right to annex.
And they are attacked from those lands. Invaded. Their people killed.
Israel has every right to exist in peace with its neighbors with secure, recognized and defensible borders. Israel has held out olive branches for 60 years to an unwilling and uncaring arab world. Remember the 3 “NOs” from Khartoum in 1967? Remember 4 hot shooting wars of aggression launched against Israel? Remember who won them?
You have a choice Anwar, you can remain committed to Israel’s destruction, and be forever frustrated in your efforts, or you can accept it, move on, build a better life, and ask the question of why your government is not as nice to its citizens as Israel is.
You see the problem with people challenging the legitimacy of Israel are also challenging the legitimacy of Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, … All were born of the same process with slightly different peoples. Some of these countries are Frankensitinian agglomerations that need to be allowed to seek dissolution in a peaceful manner. Sadly most of these countries are run by dictators, presidents for life, or other strongmen, who fundamentally oppose peoples freedoms. Sadly, some like Iraq seem to be imploding, with hundreds of people dying per day. Hundreds. Per day. Haven’t the Iraqis been through enough? Saddam and his boys weren’t exactly the nicest people. Many mass graves have been found, which leads me to believe we need a Nurenburg like process there to deal with it.
But that gets away from the point. Israel was born of the same process these others were. They deserve the same rights and recognition. Do you delegitimize India and insiste that the entire area around the Indus be Pakistani?
While we are at it, some of the most deserving of peoples are denied a state. These are real people with a distinct culture, language, tradition, and heritage. No, not the palis, we know they are like the Americans, they are immigrants. I am talking about the Kurds. Just like the jews, they have been massacred in every state (but Israel) where they have lived. Other minorites have problems with cultural conflict by living under the rule of others who do not respect them. Maronite christians, coptic christians, alawites, Druze, …. long list. Should we form countries for them? They are real peoples with a real defined heritige and history in the area (again, unlike the palis).
But back to the palis.
Israel wants peace. Period. Despite everything you read in your media Anwar, they want peace. They will not commit suicide for peace, nor will they give up what they have fought and died for. The palis appear to simply want the jews to die. If they really wanted peace, don’t you think they would have built gaza up, found investors, and been frankly too busy to lob missiles? I do. So does most of the rest of the world, that is being really hard pressed to deal with a “humanitarian crisis” on one hand, while the same entities obviously have enough money to buy weapons and start using them.
Capturing Gilad Shalit pretty much put the nail in the coffin of the lefty view of land for peace. If the palis were interested in peace they would be too busy building their land up to care about attacking jews. Instead, they attacked jews.
Hmmmm.
This took the wind out of Olmerts sails as well. Olmert misunderstood Sharon’s final gambit. Sharon decided to checkmate the palis. Force them to put up or shut up. Put them in a position where they have no choice but to build a state or prove they are nothing but a bunch of terrorists. Olmert misunderstood this. Sharon didn’t. He knew. And the Palis did exactly what he thought they would do. Either way Israel wins. If the palis are too busy building a state, then Israel has a partner for peace, can give them more land, invest in them grow their economy and become even more of a regional economic powerhouse, one not dependent upon an accident of geography. It the palis launch missiles and “operations” then they never were interested in peace, and the land for peace equation can be relegated to the trashbin of history.
Guess what happened.
The palis attacked. The world said collectively, well, ignoring the arabs, WTF?
They had a land, they chose to attack.
Abba Eban said it best. They never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.
Do the palis deserve a homeland? They have one. It is Jordan. Does Israel deserve to exist? Yes, and it is a moot point, as it does exist.
Time, and the indulgence of the world is no longer on the palis side. They played their hands, badly, and they lost big time. Their best hope is a hard about face, and moving all of their effort into state building. Because after the Lebanon crisis is over, the world is going to have to deal with a palis group that claims they want peace while formenting war.
This doesn’t go over very well. Israels magnamity has worn out. New solutions are going to be sought, and none of them are going to be as favorable towards the palis as the past solutions have been.
Just like Lebanon, they had choices to make.
And they chose consistently, the worst possible choices, choices that were not in their collective best interests.
Whoops. Can’t blame the jews for the palis own failures.
August 1st, 2006 at 1:06 am
#41 Kranky
Methinks I’ll print that post and hand it to my brother. He expressed the strange notion the other day that we (Britain) had entered WWII in order to stop the nazis extermination of the Jews. Don’t get me wrong, he’s a kind soul, just not the most academically gifted chap. I had to tell him the truth of the matter to the best of what I’d remembered of our history in the region.
He was shocked to say the least. Actually, what he said was “Are you fuckin’ kidding?”. As I said to him: Not one of the proudest moments in our nations history.
August 1st, 2006 at 1:06 am
Nice overview, #41.
August 1st, 2006 at 1:15 am
#42 I didn’t beleive it until I read the histories at the UN’s own sites. Its there in black and white. Sadly the UK had a checkered past. As did the US under FDR. Great president that he was, he was somewhat more sympathetic to the nazis than the jews. Far more to the arabs than the jews.
But that is past history. We all have to live with what we do now, and make sure we honor our children by doing right now, no matter what wrong we have done in the past. Almost anything can be forgiven. No, I am not a christian, this is not a religious thing. It is a survival thing.
#43 thanks
To all, we can move ahead and build a better world for our kids, or we can just fight. Sadly the arab media pumps out hate and vitrol with such intensity and ferocity, that I am thinking we are going to be stuck in fight mode for a long long time. That is until an arab/islamic leader with a clue and a long enough life span can make the needed changes. Haven’t seen such a person yet.
August 1st, 2006 at 1:24 am
“That is until an arab/islamic leader with a clue and a long enough life span can make the needed changes. Haven’t seen such a person yet”
Don’t hold your breath mate. So far any Arab/muslim leader that even starts a sentence with “Look lads, maybe we should just chill a little and……”, suddenly finds he has the life expectancy of a jellyfish in a blast furnace.
August 1st, 2006 at 1:25 am
“That is until an arab/islamic leader with a clue and a long enough life span can make the needed changes. Haven’t seen such a person yet.”
He will probably be the Mahdi - who will be killed because Hamas and/or Hizballah won’t like his message of peace and brotherhood.
August 1st, 2006 at 1:50 am
#42 BTW, while the “Final Solution” began its wicked implementation in the early 40’s the UK entered the war in defense of its allies in Poland, France, …
So did the US. No government officially recognized the slaughter. They knew a little about it, but chose to ignore it. And they chose to turn ships of refugees from the gas chambers around, knowing full well what was in store for the passengers.
Only when it went on record, with the Soviets and the US ground troups near simultaneous discoveries of a few of the concentration camps that the official silence could no longer be held.
I have learned a great deal in recent years. When I was a young pup in the late 60s early 70’s, I asked an uncle what the number on his arm meant. Never got an answer. Got a look which said that he hoped I would never know. I could go on, but I won’t.
While the palis try to use the verbage of the holocaust, they really don’t have the faintest clue as to what it is, what it did, and what happened. Half of them don’t believe it and the other half doubt its size. Most think it was a jewish plot to take over the world. Or control countries. How can you combat pure hatred that does not allow them to see objective reality for what it is? The documentation of what happened is legion. It is there available for all to see.
What Israel says is, never again. A few years ago, an Israeli general visited Dachau and a few of the others. He said he was 60 years too late getting there. This put many people off, but he was right. If the jews had a state, an army, they could have fought back. Instead they allowed themselves to be hearded onto trains, gassed, baked, …
Arabs should not use these words lightly. What happened in Rwanda was a holocaust. And in Armenia, and other places where people were murdered enmasse because of who they were, not because what they had done. Enmasse in this case is by the tens and hundreds of thousands. Not 55 in Jenin. What Saddam did to his own people, in the Kurdish areas was a miniature holocaust, using weapons of mass destruction. He didn’t use Zyklon B, he used mustard gas.
Assad the father did the same thing. Nasser too.
The idea of murdering people for whom they are when they have done no wrong, other than merely existing, is repugnant. It is what forments a holocaust.
The palis have never experienced anything like this. Nothing even close. Though the grand mufti did collaborate with the nazis. He was hitlers buddy. Turns out his nephew tried to continue his work. You know his nephew, Yasser.
Europe was not trying to solve its “jewish problem” or absolve itself. The UN decided that no one would stand up for the jews but themselves so it was high time to finish a process started more than 50 years earlier. The refugee problem was an arab construct. Lots of documentation of this exists in Haifa and other places. Israel begged the arabs to stay, and the arab government promised them the jews lands and properties after annhilation. Continuing what Hitler had started.
The ones that left went into refugee camps, never to be allowed to go anywhere else by their arab bretheren. The jews evicted from arab countries after the 49 armistice were absorbed by Israel. The UN formed the UNRWA which to this day continues to forment strife and anger against Israel. It has singularly failed where the refugee commission, the group that should be handling the palis, has succeeded in harder situations, such as India, Bangladesh, … The UN has succeeded in keeping the wound open and raw for 60 years. Incredible.
All because some groups cannot get over a bit of Dar al Islam returning to its ancestral owners. Said folks are happy to drive their point home if it costs the world every palis and now every Lebanese.
Sad.
August 1st, 2006 at 1:50 am
The War Nerd is certifiable, or rather should be classifed as certifiablly mad, but he has been posting for a few years now from some place, maybe some insane asyluma.
But he is right more than he is wrong, and that scares me.
Read the link and if you have time, some of this other stuff.
It’s worth your time.
Papa Ray
West Texas
USA
August 1st, 2006 at 1:50 am
The blogosphere is blowing the Qana fakery away. Hezbollah apparently didn’t pay attention to the Dan Rather dust-up. Or maybe they don’t see the Muslim street fact checking on the net.
August 1st, 2006 at 1:52 am
Hell, I would love to see an arab/islamic Gandhi. A real one, not a taqiyya simacrulum. My wait will be a long one.
August 1st, 2006 at 2:09 am
I’m no expert so I appeal to the knowledgeable Muslims here to tell me if there is a possibility of acting in an absolute pacifistic manner and still adhere to the teachings of Islam?
August 1st, 2006 at 3:08 am
You know SM, Israelis are such crazy people that they’ve got it into their heads: “won’t stop until we defeat Hezbollah fuckheads”. Like stupid little boys.
It’s a bit like when Jews thousands of years ago suddenly and for no particular good reason decided that they are special. The fact is that Jews aren’t special at all, but by firmly believing it with passion and over so long a span, they became a bit special. They wrote their own story.
Israelis are such crazy people… don’t bet against them.
August 1st, 2006 at 5:33 am
Hell the Jews and their book were so special, the Arabs decided to copy them and write their own book and think they are all special too. Can you imagine a war between Stephen King’s fans and Dean Koontz’s?
August 1st, 2006 at 5:33 am
I don’t understand what you mean by calling this conflict stupid. Both sides are stupid because they won’t quit fighting? It’s senseless? They’re hurting themselves more than anything?
I don’t agree. Israel must keep fighting until Hezbollah is so weak, so devastated, that they are no longer a threat to Israel or Lebanon. Against civilized, rational people, Israel could probably negotiate through diplomacy for a lasting peace. But this is Hezbollah, a different kind of beast. And it has been getting stronger and better armed with every passing year. Too strong for Israel’s comfort and security. At what point, do you stop them? How do you stop them? Negotiations don’t work. Giving land back doesn’t work. UN resolutions don’t work. Trading prisoners in the past didn’t work to appease Hezbollah. I don’t think there is anything that would satisfy them except the destruction of Israel.
So what does a country beseiged by fanatical terrorists do? Wait until something really bad happens? I can think of a number of possible attacks on Israel that are worse than rockets or suicide bombers. And I don’t doubt there are enough madmen in Hezbollah and other jihadist groups that would carry them out.
At some point in time, Israel had no choice but to make a decisive, aggressive move to stop Hezbollah from becoming too powerful for Israel to handle. Nobody else was doing it. The UN and Lebanese government couldn’t or wouldn’t enforce the resolution for Hezbollah to disarm. So when others don’t fulfill their responsibility and job, sometimes you just have to do it yourself, which Israel did.
Perhaps time would have mellowed Hezbollah into accepting Israel as a neighbor, maybe in another 100 years. I’ve heard that Jews are patient people, but to tolerate daily attacks for the next 100 years is asking too much from them, don’t you think? They are human, like us, except they live life surrounded by malignant people who hate their guts.
And if against the odds, Hezbollah starts to win (with help from their friends and backers) and invades Israel, we need to remember Saddam’s invasion of Kuwait. The U.S. went in to save the Kuwaitis. I have no doubt we would do the same for Israelis.
Imagine, if not for Hezbollah, the people of Lebanon and Israel would have been good neighbors. And if Hezbollah wasn’t so well-armed and feared, I think the Lebanese would have shoved them out of power long ago. Hopefully, Israel can do it for them once and for all.
I feel terrible about the deaths of innocent Lebanese, particularly the children. There’s one lesson I hope the adults have learned by now – if you see Hezbollah rocket launchers near your homes, grab your children and flee into the hills as fast and far as you can. And avoid Hezbollah fighters, because they’ll shoot you if they see you running away.
August 1st, 2006 at 9:05 am
Jason:
Hell the Jews and their book were so special, the Arabs decided to copy them and write their own book and think they are all special too. Can you imagine a war between Stephen King’s fans and Dean Koontz’s?
Actually I can:) , I saw ebough fan wars in the SF&F crowd.Trekkies vs. Buffy fangirls anyone?
Personally, I think there is hope for the Muslims yet, in the long run.Look how the Christians thought of us around the time of the Crusades- and they worship a jew!
August 1st, 2006 at 12:51 pm
Hey, what happened to Anwar? Did he read your replies on how the conflict began or is he just going to deny it as another one of those lies created by the wicked west? Would really like to get some response from him.
August 1st, 2006 at 4:22 pm
Ok, so the history is deep for Israel and the Jews. I don’t mind them living with arabs in Palestine, why do they feel the need to make a Jewish state at the expense of Arab children? Why do they feel that their religion COMMANDS them to invade Palestine, murder people, all because “the land was given to Jews by God”. And why did they try to invade southern Lebanon a while ago? Is that theirs too? Did Yahweh give them the right to take that too?
Retarded.
They don’t want peace, at least not the ones that are running things. The people running things in Israel are Zionists, and they do believe they are superior to everybody. Why else would they want their own state? The Jews are already running things everywhere. They are just looking to get more powerful.
Anyways thats my view for now, from what I’ve seen, convince me, I’am easy to convince.
August 1st, 2006 at 4:25 pm
Oh yeah and why does America give these Zionists so many weapons? Whats in it for them? Are they too looking at their Bible and going, hmm where to put these Jews..
O look! Lets put them in Palestine, it says to put them in Palestine!
August 1st, 2006 at 4:50 pm
Anwar, we jews want a state here because we want a place we can be safe, where we can be sure we won’t be persecuted.Our history shows that living exclusively under other people leads, sooner rather then later, to persecution- the Holocaust was just the latest and biggest of atrocities, historians can show you evidence of on and off(more on then off, unfortunately
) persecution dating back more then 1500 years, even muslim Spain, remembered to this date among jews for its “Golden Age” as “the best place in ancient diaspora”, had persecuted jews extensively.
August 1st, 2006 at 5:03 pm
jews have been living in palestine since ever and even more they were dominating the whole arab land, but when islam came they all switched and were not forced to. So as simple as it is, palestiniens including me are sons of jews and the jews tht u are talkin about and tht lived in the country are the palestiniens not the jewish immigrants who came from several countries like Russia and Poland and even some arabic countries like Yemen and Morroco and the fact tht jews were being manipulated and wanted a safe place to live doesnt give the right to manipulate the palestiniens and steel their land and that is offcourse under the help of Great Britain and the US
August 1st, 2006 at 5:30 pm
…Israel was created to appease the collective guilt felt by Europeans for the holocaust and the sense of obligation felt by Americans (plus the advantage of having an ally where the oil is)….
August 1st, 2006 at 10:31 pm
Ok, so the history is deep for Israel and the Jews. I don’t mind them living with arabs in Palestine,
That first step is the hardest. Congratulations for making it.
why do they feel the need to make a Jewish state at the expense of Arab children?
I don’t think I understand this comment. The state is made, fait acompli. That part is now history. Literally.
Why do they feel that their religion COMMANDS them to invade Palestine,
My religion tells me no such thing.
murder people,
My religion does not command this. Others have a “strike them at their necks” commandment, but that is not the Jews.
all because “the land was given to Jews by God”.
Ease up on the propaganda there. No one in judaism is commanded to invade, or murder. Murder is explicitly forbidden by the Decalog.
And why did they try to invade southern Lebanon a while ago?
Uhhh…. er…. so what do they teach you in school Anwar? Israel invaded due to a threat on its border. The palis were executing attacks against Israel. Frequently deadly attacks, crossing an international border, to murder and cause mayhem, destruction, and terror.
Ask Mr. Arafat and his friends about this, they were the ones doing it.
Had nothing to do with territorial ambitions. Israel wanted a secure northern border, and was being denied this by attacks from Lebanese soil. Hey, this is like deja vu all over again
.
Notice that the only thing different between 1982 and 2006 is the name of the terrorists? The situation and circumstances are largely the same. The outcome will likely be the same. Except this time Israel is insisting that others, especially those extremely critical of it, put some skin in the game. So when the feces hit the high velocity rotating blades, the critical people will be in the crossfire. And will likely learn a hard lesson about the people they were so fond of rushing to support in the process.
Is that theirs too?
Not to my knowledge. Could be wrong, but as far as I know, Lebanon belongs to Lebanon. Not Israel, not Syria, not Iran, and most definitely not hezbullah.
Did Yahweh give them the right to take that too?
Oy vey. Anwar, someone fed you something aweful, and you bought it. Here in the us we call this “programming”. It is sad to see it.
Israel is, it exists It isn’t after more land. It is not trying to push arabs into the sea. It is not taking arab land. It is not invading Lebanon to capture more territory to build more Kibbutizm. It is not invading Egypt to get more coast line.
It is, it has been, trying to live in peace among a group of people hell bent on not letting it live in peace.
They don’t want peace, at least not the ones that are running things.
Er…. ah…. no. They do. Would let them pursue their lefty dreams of spending less money on defence and more on social programs.
The people running things in Israel are Zionists,
This is true, and that is a good thing. A zionist is someone who supports the jews living in their ancestral homeland. Notice how this says nothing about excluding others from this homeland.
Sadly this word was contorted by generations of arab leaders into something close to an epiteth. It is a shame that they have done that. Somewhat similar to the denigration they are trying to do will all things related to the holocaust in WWII, but that is a different matter.
Zionists wish jews to be able to return to their ancestral homeland, establish a state, and protect themselves from those who seek to destroy the jews. Thats it Anwar, nothing more. As the state is established, the jews able to protect themselves, albeit with massive whining from the enemies of the jews, the Zionist project has fulfilled some of its goals. Keeping the jews alive and the state prospering and economically growing, not territorially growing, is the goal. You cannot survive if you cannot make a living.
and they do believe they are superior to everybody.
Do you not recognize propoganda when you see it? I don’t consider myself superior to everyone else. I am just a human being. A person. Thats it. So are you, unless you are a Turing test in which case you got me.
Why else would they want their own state?
To live Anwar, to be free of the savagery that the jews have experienced at the hands of others in states other than their own. That is it. If the world were a nice place, antisemitism not rife throughout it, why would the jews feel like they need to protect themselves from a non-existing threat? Sadly the threat is real. We see it bubble up about every 20-40 years.
There is a saying in the torah Anwar. It goes, “In every generation, there will be those who rise up to destroy you”. It is a cautionary note. And it has been, well, pretty accurate for the last 40 centuries or so.
The jews want to be able to protect themselves so they do not have to rely on the potentially temporary good graces of others to protect them. Lots of jews took a dirt nap because they relied upon fair-weather friends in the past.
The Jews are already running things everywhere. They are just looking to get more powerful.
Well, this is among the standard anti-semitic rantings that I see.
So answer me this Anwar, if we really did control everything, why not have the UN friendly to us rather than having 1/4 of its entire output focused upon us? If we really did control everything, how could you explain al-Reuters, al-AFP, al-AP, al-BBC and their blatantly biased coverage of everything? If we really did control everything Anwar, why did we let 4 wars of aggression start against us?
This Anwar is a canard. A false statement. A bigoted stereotypical statement. An incorrect statement.
What is sad is, that in the year 2006, we are having a discussion where one of the participants is saying the same thing that the nazis said before gassing, baking, and shooting jews, the Cossacks did before riding through the towns on screaming pograms, the …. well, its a rather long list.
Same canard, different year, not any more correct than it was then. Back then you heard it right before attacks. Lets dehumanize the jews, and then killing them is easier. That about right Anwar?
Do you see much coverage of the war dead in Israel on your arab news channels? Any at all? Ever wonder why?
August 1st, 2006 at 10:32 pm
jews have been living in palestine since ever and even more they were dominating the whole arab land, but when islam came they all switched and were not forced to.
If you believe this, have I got a bridge for you to buy. Real cheap. Its in Brooklyn, NY, USA.
August 2nd, 2006 at 7:03 pm
You still haven’t answered my question. I asked what gives Israel the right to pounce on Palestine and take the land, kill its people, invite Jews from all over the world and then ask for peace. Your answer is: “God gave us this land. It’s in the torah.”
If this is true and you seriously think that God gave you this land and you have a right to it, even at our expense, then yes there is definetly a war between us, and peace will not happen until you give it back.
Only then can we share the land, and live together.
Anyways this is all “moral” talk, and the truth is the world has always followed the sacred rule that goes “the bigger fish eats the smaller fish”, and this is what this conflict is about.
August 2nd, 2006 at 7:41 pm
Anwar, you can hardly claim Israel “pounced” on Arab land in the Idependence War- quite the opposite, in fact.All the Jewish settlements before 1947/8 were allways built on land bought from Arab sheikhs or land nobody claimed(marshes and the like).When the UN plan was announced most Jews weren’t enthusiastic, but said something along the lines of “what the hack, that’s probably the best deal we’ll get.We agree”.The moment the Arab population heard about it their leaders response was to declare a war on the Jewish settlement.They pounced on us, and were repelled to the 1967 borders- many Arab people fled because their leaders told them “You only need to move away for a little time and then you’ll be able to come back and get all the Jews’ property as well”, and thus began the refugee problem .
August 4th, 2006 at 2:57 am
They pounced on us, and were repelled to the 1967 borders- many Arab people fled because their leaders told them “You only need to move away for a little time and then you’ll be able to come back and get all the Jews’ property as well”, and thus began the refugee problem .
And why did our leader told us tht,, i guess it was cus the “haganas” and the british from behind them was killing the palestiniens in hunderds without no mercy…