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Tuesday, 1 Aug 2006
I had an interesting conversation yesterday with a co-worker, on the concept of the disporportinate Israeli attacks on Lebanon compared to Hezbollah attacks. He pointed to me his dismay at Hezbollah's rockets ineffeciency at hitting targets. He said "If you noticed, they bomb each other almost equally in amounts of missiles shot, but 90% of Hezbollah's rockets miss or hit nothing, while all of Israel's rockets hit something. If Hezbollah had better rockets, the civillian death toll on the Israeli side would be huge, and they would be really hurting by now."
Impressed by this point of view that I haven't considerd before, I asked him what he would've thought, if a Hezbollah rocket had attacked a building in Israel, killing 55 civillians, of which 30 were children. He responded immeidtely "I would've thought it was great! A7san!".
So I repeated the same question to 8 other co-workers, and the responses so far have been as follows: 7 said they would celebrate, and 2 said that such an attack would've been bad, but justified! Yeah! Not a single person said that the death of any civllian, on either side, is an equal tragedy. Civillians dead on our side is tragic, civillian deaths on their side cause for celebration. And if you think I am being unfair or demonizing arabs or whatever, do me a favor and try it at your work place and/or with members of your family. Conduct this little social experiment and see for yourself. The results are very interesting.
This begs another question: If we were the ones who had the superior military machine, would we have shown them any mercy, or any regard to their civillian casualties? Would we have hesitated to wipe them all out? Armed forces, civillians, whatever? Would any of us have felt bad about it at all? Or would we be filled with the feelings of Pride, honor and dignity that we keep talking about day and night?
I am just wondering!
What do you think?
August 1st, 2006 at 10:56 am
BP -
I think the results of your little survey show just how irrational this whole situation has become. How can your co-workers essentially support a double standard like this? One can’t complain about the Israelis and give a pass to the other side - it just doesn’t make sense! These things happen in war, either by mistake or on purpose, and it’s a shame regardless of who did what to whom.
August 1st, 2006 at 11:02 am
So? Is it finally the time to drop that stupid and misleading word “disproportionate” as regards to the Israeli response?
A word that was out-of-place form the first day.
August 1st, 2006 at 11:07 am
You get the point.
August 1st, 2006 at 11:08 am
Rich, why are u calling me BP?
August 1st, 2006 at 11:15 am
I am afraid of trying this survey among my co-workers. I guess that I would recieve the same anwers.
But I dont think if we had the super military machine we would do worse than this. But who are the ‘We’ here. Arabs? Egyptians? Jordanians? HezbAllah? Maybe some extremist would do, but the majority of the Arabs won’t, I guess.
They are just talking now out of bitterness and rage. A sense of revenge.
August 1st, 2006 at 11:16 am
It is a very good of you to mention this. our people are shooting themselves in the foot by being intellectually lazy and supporting suicide bombings and that stuff. It all stems from a sense of humiliation and helplesness (and perhaps a decreasing average IQ as all the intelligent people emigrate?).
I think both sides of this conflict are de-humanizing the other side — as people do in conflict, when animalistic tribalism kicks in, and rational thinking and empathy are shut-down. I don’t think Isrealis would be much better though -I read Hebrew, and the talkbacks you get on Israeli websites are just atrocious. Things like “napalm the whole of south lebanon”, “kill every Shi’ite in lebanon”, ” deport all our enemies [The Palestinians] from our home[Palestine/Israel]“…etc…
I think if Arab states ever devoloped the social, political and economic structures that would support a strong military -they would be much more enlightened and tolerant as a result. Israel is also trying to sell itself as an enlightened democracy -”an oasis among savages” as Barak put it- and has a lot more to lose (and not much to gain) from massive killing of civilians. Hizbullah (which mostly targeted military targets in it’s history) is trying to make Israel pay for attacking Lebanon -a plan which isn’t really working.
I know you have a “get over the past” attitude towards the Israeli/Arab conflict, but there are many reasopns why this is still an open wound and why it’s still an engine of hatred in the region.
By the way, the Israeli army has admitted that Hizbullah was not in Qana…not surprising really as Lebanese and Palestinian civilians don’t matter much.
August 1st, 2006 at 11:21 am
If we were the ones who had the superior military…
I for one dearly hope that this remains an academic question.
But you rightly make the point that attempting to claim the moral high ground is laughable if: ‘you would if you only could’.
August 1st, 2006 at 11:37 am
You just keep missing the point of this conflict… As one of the Iranian clerics said “Islam does not recognize the concept of civilians”.
August 1st, 2006 at 11:46 am
Alaa says:
By the way, the Israeli army has admitted that Hizbullah was not in Qana…not surprising really as Lebanese and Palestinian civilians don’t matter much.
Here are arial photos of Qana http://players.mediazone.co.il/media/authors/34/playlists/2423/2423_static.asx
showing missles being hidden in Qana.
Papamishka Says:
You just keep missing the point of this conflict… As one of the Iranian clerics said “Islam does not recognize the concept of civilians”.
Then how can the Lebonese bitch about civilian casualties?
August 1st, 2006 at 11:47 am
Hmmm - I’m probably going to be alone in this, but I think that if the Arab nations (not talking about the terrorists) outpowered Israel from a military perspective, this would not imply the crushing of Israel.
To obtain sophisticated military equipment, and the personnel to operate it, you need an environment that will stimulate scientific research, a viable economy able to support the military effort, decent commercial relationships with partner countries who must be able to supply you with hi-tech equipment and therefore will probably foster a similar environment of research and a strong economy.
It’s my opinion you do not get those conditions unless you have a well-functioning democracy, or something close to it, a capitalist or semi-capitalist system and a mercantile tradition.
Now.
The Arab nations have a mercantile tradition much older and originally more developed than the European countries (including the USA and Japan - as I’m referring to European mercantile tradition) - but they got behind in the race and are outdated now.
There was a period in history when the Arab nations were home to stunning achievements in mathematics and science - but that period too, lies behind us.
To have the viable economy, you need a capitalist system and a strong rule of law. This means less corruption, more schooling (try teaching kids math and languages instead of making them recite koranic verses and anti-western slogans, to put it without nuance) - basically, you need a democracy.
People living in a democracy usually resent the idea of indiscriminately killing off civilians, and will in the event of war, force their military and executive leaders to prevent it to the extent possible.
Proof? The protest against the US’s behaviour in Iraq (and Vietnam) was nowhere as strong as in the US itself.
Just some thoughts, but basically - by the time the Arab nations’ military would outpower Israel - which is a possibility - I’m betting statements such as: wipe them all out, would decrease in frequency.
Ulysses.
August 1st, 2006 at 11:49 am
SM,
For what it’s worth, my co-workers, and my friends, all Israelis, all think that what happened in Qana is a tragedy. Perhaps you’re working with the wrong people … ?
Alaa, you said: “By the way, the Israeli army has admitted that Hizbullah was not in Qana” - Can you please provide a source for this? Even in Hebrew? I can’t find any reference to it, whilst I’ve seen quite a lot of Lebanese evidence that HA was quite definitely in Qana …
August 1st, 2006 at 11:49 am
Alaa was too quick for me and posted his comment while I was typing mine.. Shall we say great minds think alike, Alaa?
think if Arab states ever devoloped the social, political and economic structures that would support a strong military -they would be much more enlightened and tolerant as a result. Israel is also trying to sell itself as an enlightened democracy -”an oasis among savages” as Barak put it- and has a lot more to lose (and not much to gain) from massive killing of civilians. Hizbullah (which mostly targeted military targets in it’s history) is trying to make Israel pay for attacking Lebanon -a plan which isn’t really working.
August 1st, 2006 at 11:51 am
A. Civilians are often targets of conflict as in Dresden, Hiroshima, The Blitz, and in money other instances (which is slowly changing).
B. Although I am not religious- I really think the statement “Islam does not recognize civilians” is unfair. Islamic tradition recognizes a rudimentary concept of civilians, probably more than Judaism and Christianity.
C. Why do you quote some nutcase mullah, and generalise to Islam and the Arab-Israeli conflict?
August 1st, 2006 at 11:53 am
“To obtain sophisticated military equipment, and the personnel to operate it, you need …. It’s my opinion you do not get those conditions unless you have a well-functioning democracy, or something close to it, a capitalist or semi-capitalist system and a mercantile tradition.”
Aha. It seems that you have never heard of the Soviet Union, have you? It wasn’t a democracy (not even close), it wasn’t capitalist (not even semi), and it did have the hugest army in the Army. Read more history books, do less hobby philosophising.
August 1st, 2006 at 11:59 am
Nominally challenged:
http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/spages/745130.html
“. בתוך כך גוברים הספקות בנוגע לעובדות שהוצגו לכלי התקשורת בנוגע להפצצת הבית בקנא שלשום. אתמול התברר כי מחצר הבית שהופצץ לא אותרו שיגורי קטיושות בעבר וכי לא היה מידע על הימצאות אנשי חיזבאללה במקום.
הבית נבחר כיעד משום שבעבר שוגרו קטיושות לא הרחק ממנו, ובחיל האוויר הוחלט לתקוף כמה בתים ברדיוס מסוים ממקום השיגור, כפי שנעשה באתרי שיגור נוספים. ביום התקיפה לא אותרו שיגורים מכפר קנא. מצה”ל נמסר אתמול כי הצבא ממשיך בבדיקת האירוע”
Ok-it changed a bit since the morning , I guess they got more information…
Ulysses :
, yes …ehm…great minds indeed
I am sure you thought of it before me
August 1st, 2006 at 12:00 pm
Alaa,
With all due respect, I think you are making an unfair assessment of the Israelis. Nearly everyone I speak to here is quite upset about what is happening to the Lebanese people, though I think that people do tend to place more blame on Hezbollah for this than on Israel. Admittedly, most Israelis support the war on Hezbollah, but this support often goes hand-in-hand with sorrow because of the resulting situation on the ground in Lebanon. The comments that you are reading on the Israeli websites are not representative of the overall feelings of most Israelis. Indeed, it has been my experience that the people leaving these extreme comments aren’t usually the quickest bunnies in the forest, and while they probably believe what they are writing, most sane people wouldn’t agree with them.
August 1st, 2006 at 12:05 pm
Though it’s obvious in everything I see (on Fox) and read (on the internet) that the hatred is so intense that, given the chance, *most* Muslim and Arab peoples would exterminate the state of Israel and all who live in it….. it’s still hard for me to believe it.
That’s why there will never be ‘peace’ in the region; only periodic truces. When the death of innocents no longer shock a culture or group of people, then that people have become morally bankrupt.
I support Israel’s movement into Lebanon for the purpose of eradicating Hezbollah and I thought they were foolish to turn over Gaza and the West Bank to Hamas….all they did (and the world knows it!) was to provide the opportunity for it’s ancient enemies to hide within it’s vest. Israel will cease to exist if it tries to follow the rules and dictates of world opinion.
August 1st, 2006 at 12:30 pm
SM, I commend you for asking such revealing questions of your country men. It would be even more revealing to know what your co-workers reaction would be if Hezbollah were the stronger power in a skirmish with either the US or a country in Europe. I imagine the responses would be the same. This only deepens the worlds belief that many in the ME believe that if you are not a Muslim, you are an infidel and therefore wortheless. Your co-workers obviously do not realize that their views create anymosity with anyone who is not a Muslim, especially when the person hearing such vial opinions is from a country targetted by the Muslim fundamentalists. It brings back the images of Palestinians and Muslims in many other parts of the world celebrating after 9/11.
Your co-workers fail to realize that so many of the people they hate, actually care deeply whether it is a Muslim or Jew is lost in this conflict. That so many in the rest of the world value each and every life, without regard for their religious or ethnic background. I am one of these people, but when I hear comments coming from an Arab tongue and know that these beliefs are the norm rather than the exception ( as proven by the ratio you reported ), it causes even someone as unbiased as me some pause. This morning was a perfect example. I was starting to deplore Israels seemingly haphazard bombings, starting to believe that Israel was going to far and then I ready your post and my position reverts back to contemplating how Israel might simply be sick to their stomachs with the level of hate that radiates from it’s neighbors, even from Egyptians, who by now should be at peace in their minds, with Israel.
I have watched a number of Arab leaders being interviewed on CNN and MSNBC, in recent days and not a single one has at least acknowledged that Hezbolla has played a role in this conflict, not one. Instead, they have consistently called them freedom fighters and insinuated that Hamas and Hezbolla are honorable. This is sickening and made all the worse because these are govt officials from all over the Arab world, people who I would expect to be intelligent enough to at least see how Hezbolla and Hamas could have set things in motion.
Is it possible that they actually do see both sides but fear so intensly that their lives or careers might be in danger if they are seen as taking a neutral position ? It’s probable, but, either way it illustrates that the mentality of the majority of your co-workers wether it be ignorance or prejudice reaches the highest levels in even what the outside world believe are moderate Arab nations.
I know for damn sure that this view, although one could appreciate how justified it would be, is not shared by the majority of Israeli’s.
As you correctly pointed out though, Israel is dramatically stronger than any of the militant groups that peck at it so regularly and so no matter how justified Israel is in some of it’s retaliations, a biased mind will always see them as the aggressor. It is impossible for me to believe that your co-workers do not have access to the same information you do and yet you are able to condemn both sides for their actions rather than just Israel. I wish you could or would explain what makes you and the minority in your group able to see things with more clarity or even if someone else could from the ME on this site.
How are so many anti-Israeli Muslims in the ME able to simply ignore the fact that Hezbollah was the first lobbing missiles into Israel and that Hezbollah kidnapped IDF soldiers in Israeli territory, at a time when Lebanon ( excluding Hezbolla and it’s supporters ) were at peace with Israel ? That Lebanon was just getting it’s feet back on the ground in every way imaginable. That the bombed out pile of ruble connotation associated with Beirut was fading into the history books. That if Hezbolla had wanted war with Israel and had fought in the open lives and structures would have been spared. I cannot repeat my by belief enough that I do not condone the way Israel has conducted itself but I do understand why it reacted.
While I understand the natural inclination towards unity in the Islamic world ( a generalization ), I think Muslims, like your co-workers who clearly emphasized their lack of value for the life of an Israeli, should wake up to the reality that their is no honor in brotherhood when the side you are rooting for are so guilty of so many horrors themselves. It makes it that much harder for the rest of us to empathize for their cause. I personally find myself having to fight back to an impartial position when I come across opinions like the ones expressed by your co-workers. I can totally see how a Lebanese native who has just lost a loved one to an Israeli attack could be blinded by hate, but an Egyptian in an office In Cairo who refuses to see the culpability of Hezbolla in this disaster will only hinder the ME’s progress and this is very depressing for those of who want peace everywhere.
August 1st, 2006 at 12:39 pm
# 6 Alaa, very poingnant commentary.
OK related but not, can someone please tell me why some people spell it Hizbollah and others Hezbollah. Which is correct and why are there two spellings ? Not that I feel any deep need to legitimize these dogs but I do want to make sure that I adhering to correctly to the correct Arabic spelling. Nothing makes me cringe more when I hear my American friends say AY-ran, or Ay-raq, when it should be Iran and Iraq. Thanks
August 1st, 2006 at 12:40 pm
This is what i think:
A Muslim apostate must be killed (surah 9:12).
Muslims must fight until their opponents submit to Islam (surah 9:29).
A Muslim must not take a Jew or a a Christian for a friend (surah 5:51).
“Sufficient for the Jew is the Flaming Fire!” Qur’an 4:55
The punishment for those who wage war against Allah and His Prophet and make mischief in the land, is to murder them, crucify them, or cut off a hand and foot on opposite sides…their doom is dreadful. They will not escape the fire, suffering constantly.” Qur’an 5:33
“Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.” Qur’an 8:12
Would you like me to go on. There is plenty more where that came from. It’s what islam says, if you believe it then you are a real muslim.
August 1st, 2006 at 12:43 pm
Alaa - the simple fact of it is that Israelis ARE much better, simply because Israel has the military capacity to kill as many Arabs as it wishes. Please note the casulaties count.
Moreover, the comments you’re referring to are the voices of very few angry people. And even then you’re lumping together people who call for a wider military campaign with those who call for the destruction of the Lebanese Shi’a.
And Haaretz reports are highly suspect at best - it’s a radical leftie paper with a clearly pronounced suicidal agenda.
And regarding military might = scientific advance = saner populace… as the other Anon put it, USSR. Oh, and the Muslim conquest of Northern India with the ensuing prolonged holocaust.
Ta-ta.
August 1st, 2006 at 12:46 pm
#19 Frenchman
I’m not 100% sure, but I believe it’s “Hizb’Allah”
August 1st, 2006 at 12:46 pm
Alaa,
1. Thanks for the reference. You noticed, of course, that the article reports an Israeli human rights group (the Civil Rights Association) requesting that the Prime Minister conduct an inquiry into the events at Qana. Your quote says that “there are increasing doubts” regarding what took place at Qana. I think that the doubts are considerable on both sides. See, for instance, http://www.libanoscopie.com/FullDoc.asp?DocCode=994&Cat=2
By the way, SM’s post also begs the question whether there would, say, be a call in Egypt (or Lebanon, or Jordan, or anywhere else, for that matter) for a government inquiry, were the same thing to happen in Israel at the instigation of someone in that country. For that matter, when was the last time a Palestinian Human Rights Group asked the Palestinian Parliament for an inquiry into the justification of suicide bombings? Just asking …
2. I wish I could read Arabic as well as you can read Hebrew
August 1st, 2006 at 12:51 pm
# 22, thank you for the clarification Wishbone.
August 1st, 2006 at 1:18 pm
“I think if Arab states ever developed the social, political and economic structures that would support a strong military -they would be much more enlightened and tolerant as a result. ”
The history of Europe up to 1945 does not support that theory.
August 1st, 2006 at 1:20 pm
There are a few things suspicious about the Kafr Qana? building that was destroyed and killed 50 persons.
From what I’ve heard, the red cross can account for only some 20 odd killed. There is the strange discrepancy between when the building was hit (actually the bomb hit in ths street, missing a direct hit) and when it collapsed. Also, there weren’t any men killed, mostly children. Why would that be?
Could Hizballah have done this on purpose, either attracting Israeli targetting or using their own explosives to create a media event and an outcry from Western states?
Let’s not forget the explosion on the gaza beach that was immediately attributed to an Israeli missle, only to later be discovered to be from a Palestinian mine. By then, the media had moved on and Israel left unvindicated…
August 1st, 2006 at 1:21 pm
a, a whole website dedicated to similat quotes from the bible : http://www.evilbible.com/Evil%20Bible%20Quotes.htm
Get my point?
Also, many of your quotes are partial and taken out of context, and some are (I think, I am not a Koranic expert…hehe) mistranslated
“By the way, SM’s post also begs the question whether there would, say, be a call in Egypt (or Lebanon, or Jordan, or anywhere else, for that matter) for a government inquiry, were the same thing to happen in Israel at the instigation of someone in that country. ”
Maybe someday, when these states become democracies…Also, there is peace between Israel and Egypt and Jordan.
“For that matter, when was the last time a Palestinian Human Rights Group asked the Palestinian Parliament for an inquiry into the justification of suicide bombings? Just asking … ”
There are many Palestinian organizations that are against suicide bombings. and the vast majority of Palestinians do not take part in any activities against Israel.
The Palestinian Authority doesn’t order suicide bombing, they are commited by small, decentralized cells. In contrast, The Israeli government does order its military to bomb places.
August 1st, 2006 at 1:22 pm
Anon - “Soviet Union” - yes I’ve thought about the Soviet Union. Where is the Soviet Union now? Western ’soft power’ brought it to its knees - together with the ‘inherent contradictions’ of Marxism
But while the Soviets outpowered the Chechnyans and the Afghans, I think it wrong to say they outpower the Nato countries.. Scientific progress was made a lot quicker in the US and Europe, and the Soviet Union lagged behind, and continued to lag behind more and more throughout the second half of the 20th century.
August 1st, 2006 at 1:28 pm
With regard to Europe’s history up to 1945 - yes, a lot of Nazi scientists defected to the States, where they found an environment that suited them better. Also, take note - the Nazi’s were defeated, and Europe still dislikes war, patriotism & nationalism more than the US because of its not so fond memories of the 2nd WW. In time, the Muslim extremists who push a similarily totalitarian agenda will be defeated in a similar way, even when or after they rise to power, and there will be a similar catharsis in the Middle East..
August 1st, 2006 at 1:35 pm
Alaa, you write: (and perhaps a decreasing average IQ as all the intelligent people emigrate?).
Unfortunately the organized Muslim and Arab leadership in the U.S., Canada and the U.K. (and Australia, too, from what I’ve read), support suicide bombing/martyrdom operations. This is well documented. They are just as happy to fight the Israelis down to the last Palestinians (and now Lebanese) as many of the people they left behind in the Middle East.
They have also been trying to sell Hezbollah as freedom fighters for over a decade. A very tough job in the U.S., being that they killed 241 or our soldiers who were in Lebanon on a peace keeping mission and have been screaming “Death to America” ever since.
August 1st, 2006 at 1:35 pm
What your co-worker forgot to say is that the municipalities in Israel are - if i am correct - better equiped with shelters and that many Israelis in the north went away (without being warned by Hezbollah).
August 1st, 2006 at 1:48 pm
China is definitely capitalistic by now, but surely not democratic (and they used to have nukes before their changed their economy).
I wonder how and when China “will be brought to its knees”. I admire your strong believe in happy endings, but history isn’t like that, unfortunately. Sometimes it is, sometimes not.
August 1st, 2006 at 1:55 pm
SM,
Doesn’t this relate back to your older post, “Their Left, Our Left”?
To me it seems that the Muslims of that area are a very passionate people, and rightfully feel that they have a legacy of building societies and cultivating intellect. Maybe they feel the loss of that status in the world community, maybe they feel angry that a people who once made medical and mathematical advances are now no longer allowed to say “pizza”. Still, passionate though they are, I think they are turning their anger in the wrong direction. The British colonized the area, and were not exactly the most pleasant people around. Furthermore, politician after politician who only cared for their own bank accounts and not at all for the people have perhaps left them feeling victimized and angry. They need an enemy, and I think the governments are more than happy to feed them Israel, in exchange for the people not realizing that if they stopped and looked around, they may note that they deserve more, and can do more for themselves. That’s my thought on the matter.
August 1st, 2006 at 1:57 pm
Alaa - using Bible entries as a counter argument doesn’t prove too much. The bible contradicts itself so many times. Modern Christians understand that humans wrote the thing and, being fallable, the message is what matters - not the exact text.
From what I understand, the Koran is different. The words are the Word of God ™. Not to be interpreted - simply obeyed. That is a major difference when trying to compare the two text.
Now - in speaking with some Muslim co-workers, whom I consider pretty moderate, well educated and intelligent, I don’t get the feeling that they have the same ideas about the Koran that I do about the Bible - that it is mearly a guide, written by fallable mankind and thus distorted. I get the feeling that they believe the words are the exact Word of God.
August 1st, 2006 at 2:00 pm
Alaa: //There are many Palestinian organizations that are against suicide bombings. and the vast majority of Palestinians do not take part in any activities against Israel.
The Palestinian Authority doesn’t order suicide bombing, they are commited by small, decentralized cells. In contrast, The Israeli government does order its military to bomb places. //
Don’t make me laugh. 2.7% of Palestinians voted for a party that is not based on violence. Well over 80% of Palestinians support terrorism according to polls. The Palestinian terror is instigated mostly by Fatah and Hamas - the main two political parties that rule all of PA among them. In the goold old days of Yasser, he would personally send in suicide bombers while pretending to persue peace; no official representative of PA has ever directly condemned terrorism for being terrorism - the closest they ever came up with was “terrorism at this point of time is harming Palestinian interests”.
And yes, Israeli government tells IDF to bomb places… not civilians.
August 1st, 2006 at 2:01 pm
These clips are raw footage from memri.org, a nonprofit non-partisan internet service that translates things broadcast from the Muslim World. The Muslim world MUST confront this inciting hatred because it is poisoning their children.
Al-Manar TV (Lebanon) Hitleresque Histrionic - 2/23/2006 Nasrallah: DEATH TO AMERICA http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=1053wmv&ak=null
Al-Manar (Hezbollah TV) (Lebanon) - 11/29/2005 Young Student on Hezbollah TV: ”’Just like Hitler fought the Jews”’ – We are a great Islamic nation of Jihad, and we too should fight the Jews and burn them.
http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=962wmv&ak=null
Al-Manar TV (Hezbollah TV Lebanon) - 2/18-19/2005 - Inciting Speach to tens-of-thousands: Hezbollah Crowd: DEATH TO AMERICA! http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=566wmv&ak=null
Al-Manar TV (Hezbollah TV Lebanon) - 5/15/2004 Speach to Hezbollah – Nasrallah: DEATH TO AMERICA
http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=074wmv&ak=null
Al-Manar TV (Hezbollah TV Lebanon) Broadcast - 7/16/2006 - We are waging the battle of the (Islamic) nation, whether we like it or not, whether the Lebanese like it or not.
http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=1194wmv&ak=null
ANB TV (London) - 12/14/2004 – Interview - Hizbullah PR Director Ibrahim Farhat: ”’We May Adjust Our Terminology But Will Not Change Policy”’ http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=418wmv&ak=null
Al-Jazeera TV (Qatar) - 2/16/2006 Broadcasted Speech- Nasrallah: Whoever has not tasted Jihad; the taste of martyrdom does not taste martyrdom. (i.e. it’s to die for) Let me tell you that fighting the original enemy of prophets, of Lebanon, of Arabs and of humanity has a different taste than street fighting in dark allies…As Lebanese we do not need to be part of International coalitions…Let me be clear today we do not belong to any coalition.
http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=1041wmv&ak=null
August 1st, 2006 at 2:10 pm
Dan - in my experience, the problem with western analysis of muslim tought is that we tend to generalize. We don’t realize that there are a lot of different Islams and a lot of different interpretations both of koranic texts and other religious sources. Most Muslims I’ve encountered state their interpretation is the only correct one, and that there are no different interpretations.
Logically, as they are believers, their beliefs are exclusive and will not give room for the idea that other believers may be correct too. A bit like the (I think Monthy Python) sketch where after death, it is said: Any Christians here? I’m sorry, turns out the Jews were right, to Hell you go.
This implies there are actually a lot of different interpretations of Koran, yet everyone you meet will state there is but one, and that the Koran is holy and sacred, and the Prophet’s words should not be meddled with.
The bible, contrary to the Koran, has been written by a lot of different persons over a vast period of multiple centuries. It has been the subject of scientific, theological and exegetic scrutiny for a longer period of time and to a higher degree than the Koran.
I’m just back from Tunisia (which is why I didn’t comment too much during the last few days). I have met alcohol - drinking Muslims who considered themselves practising muslims, non-alcohol drinking muslims who considered alcohol-drinking muslism “no real muslims” et caetera.
By the way - I don’t think the average Tunisian would want to destroy Israeli villages or take pleasure in the killing of either civilians and/or children in retaliation for Israel’s invasion of Lebanon.
August 1st, 2006 at 2:23 pm
Ulysses - yeah I get that impression as well (not about the Tunisians - about Muslems). I do honestly think that the religion is being used to control the populace much like Christianity was used during the Middle Ages. The only way to combat this is to educate and enlighten the masses who are intentionally kept ignorant by their leaders. Not that religious leaders cannot effect benevolent change - case in point India. It’s just that most of the 2nd and 3rd world countries leaders don’t really have their peoples best interest at heart.
August 1st, 2006 at 2:28 pm
the most tired arguments ever alaa
mistranslated- cop out, they are translated perfectly. Not many ways to translate the world kill and hatred alaa but i m welcome to your ‘interpretation
out of context- please explain the context of the above verses to show that kill really means to smother them with hugs and kisses.
As for your counterargument. Spot the difference between the quotes you have taken out of the bible and quotes from the quran. In the Quran it is the follower of the religion who is commanded to pass judgement: Muslims must fight until their opponents submit to Islam (surah 9:29). In the bible, it is God who says that he will pass judgement (vengeance is mine- deuteronomy 32:35). However before God passess judgement he says:
Matthew 5:39
But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
1 John 4:18
18There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
Matthew 5:43-45
["You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
Luke 6:27
[ Love for Enemies ] “But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
Luke 6:34-36
But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.
and the piece de resistance
1John 4:16
God is love
Interesting to note that in the 99 excellent names for God in the Qu’ran, not one of them is love.
August 1st, 2006 at 2:28 pm
I love it when SM asks his co-workers and it becomes a political position of all.
WOW that is a new research method indeed that I wasn’t aware of.
Ok guys keep going
August 1st, 2006 at 2:50 pm
try this:
http://www.islamreview.com
August 1st, 2006 at 3:02 pm
Sadly the road which we travel will be paved with blood. It will come from the screaming and unthinking fanatics who demand wiping out of a people to salve their bruised honor. SM’s poll confirms that there will be no tears shed for murder of innocents.
Every decision carries a cost, sometimes a terrible cost to it. I read how the Lebanese now uniformly hate the Israelies and that the “nuances” they speak about are now gone. Yet when I speak with Lebanese here in the states, most say that they hope their bretheren are OK, and they despise hezbullah. This is echoed in some of what we see in the papers, editorials from real people, not the fascist mouthpieces like CAIR and their ilk.
Israel pays terrible prices when it comes to forgetting its past, when it comes to forgetting where they are, and naively believing that a “peace process” will result in anything other than attacks and attempted annhilation.
SM, Alaa, and others, I appreciate open and thoughtful comments and points. You ask the Israelis your questions and you will see genuine grief over loss of life. I cannot tolerate children being murdered. I find this the epitome of despicable. Please ask your friends and co workers whether or not they would celebrate the death of a child, any child. Then ask them if they would celebrate the death of an Israeli child. The Israelis mourn and grieve over the death of arab children. The children are the ones we are supposed to be protecting, no matter where they are from, who they are, what country or religion they are from.
The Israelis are paying a huge price for their hopeful naivete.
The Lebanese are paying a huge price for their ignorance of the pink elephant in a purple tutu in the room, that every now and then pulls out a weapon and starts randomly murdering others.
The palis, well, they have paid a huge price again and again for really stupid decisions, made over and over again, by their worthless leaders, and for electing their worthless leaders. They are the one group most able to positively impact their own future, and the steadfastly refuse to take sane or reasonable positions on how to advance themselves.
When we can start valuing our kids lives and other kids lives, then we are moving forward.
We can forgive you for killing our sons. But we will never forgive you for making us kill yours.
August 1st, 2006 at 3:03 pm
I think a better question to ask of your co-workers is why do Arab armies inevitably loose?
It isn’t just technological superiority in the west that creates an unequal fight. Rather it is the fact the no Arab soldier is a free agent. Islam doesn’t encourage people to think for themselves, show initiative, or take risks. Think of the burocracy that you deal with everyday. How does your postal system work, telephone system work, what papers do you have to get to start a business, how much corruption do you face? And the list could go on and on.
From a western perspective, there just isn’t any honor in war, at all. Though there is honor in being a good soldier, member of the armed forces, etc. There is no honor in killing in killing others in the west. Snipers are not well liked by other members of the armed forces, for instance.
The ideas that motivate Jihadis and your co-workers just aren’t sustainable because of the amount of injustice that such ideas bring about among their own people. A minority are true believers, but most just want to live their own lives.
Violence in the middle east won’t go on for ever….it will stop when the oil runs out, or we make a cheap alternative here. Once that source of funds disappears, Jihad will crumble.
On the other hand, it would end if one nuke went off in a western city. Were that the case, I think the world powers would just come in and take it all away.
August 1st, 2006 at 3:12 pm
MidEast War: 64
August 11, 2006 06:00 PDT War coverage 24/7 from PJM Editors in Australia, Europe and the United States. Frequent updates when news moves. Scroll. Lebanese and Israeli bloggers covering the conflict are @ Truth Laid Bear, plus a map view….
August 1st, 2006 at 3:16 pm
OMG…
Why, exactly, are they tired arguments? I can go into detail on these quotes — and say why I think they don’t hold water, but I have a job to keep and bills to pay. I can research things and get back to you if you promise to come back and read my response…but I think you’ve made your mind already and is really happy with your sense of cultural superiority…
I am not defending Islam specifically, my point is that different people can look for different things in the same book to prove their own point. Also the fact that there are far more violent verses in the bible (and other religious texts) doesn’t prove anything about these religions today.
The fact that there are violent verses in the Koran doesn’t mean anything, nor does it prove anything about people who believe in Islam (even if they do take it literaly). It really makes me cringe when some one tries this cheap trick.
“Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.” Qur’an 8:12
I don’t think this one exists…but will have to check. (can you provite your source, please?)
Anon:
“Don’t make me laugh. 2.7% of Palestinians voted for a party that is not based on violence. Well over 80% of Palestinians support terrorism according to polls”.
Where did you get this 2.7 statistic? who gets to define which Parties are Kosher and which are not? Which country in the world has a majority of pacifists in parliment? can I label all parties I don’t like in Israel as …say ‘racist’ or ‘violent’ and say that 17% of Israelis vote for racists?
I was not talking about voting or support — how many Palestinians actually commit violent acts against Israelis? (really, not that many –I can get you exact stats, but that also requires time and I’ll get back to you with details on that if you promise you’ll read them).
I thought Israel and the US wanted Fattah to win?
Hammas won because of the PA corruption - no other reason (even some of my atheist and christian friends voted Hammas)
I never said the Palestinians are doing it right…don’t put words in my mouth. I am simply pointing out two facts :
1- There are Palestinians and Palestinian organizations that do nor agree with suicide bombings, the may not be the majority but the do exist.
2- The Palestinian authority/government/parliment has no sovreignity and no control over the suicide bombers. They are individual acts, and are not a result of any real chain of command. you cannot hold every Palestinian responsible for them. Would you hold the Israeli government responsible for the Baruch Goldstein Massacre? I wouldn’t…
Clear,
I don’t think analysing the symantics of a book that is 1500 years old tells you much about Arabs,Moslems&co. but just to point out a factual mistake…
I do not want to make this a discussion about religion, because religion isn’t really my thing…but of god’s 99 names in Islam there are:
The Compassionate
The Merciful
The Source of Peace
The Great Forgiver
The Forebearing, The Clement
The All-Forgiving, The Forgiving
The Grateful, The Appreciative
The Generous One, The Bountiful
The Loving
The Patient
My posts are all over the place…could someone take over?
August 1st, 2006 at 3:17 pm
I don’t think anyone cares about dead Jews.
August 1st, 2006 at 3:21 pm
Ulysses,
You say, ” in my experience, the problem with western analysis of muslim tought is that we tend to generalize.”
Yet, in your first comment you do generalize, when you say - “Proof? The protest against the US’s behaviour in Iraq (and Vietnam) was nowhere as strong as in the US itself.”
There could be (and are) 100 reasons why that might be so. The earliest American colonists were more advanced than the average muslim in the middle east. One should never compare what people in the States do to what muslims do.
As an example, were there widespread protests at the US invasion of the Phillipines? Yet, we were a capitalist democracy back then. Muslim societies have a LONG way to go, even after they embrace democracy and capitalism. In fact, the key difference (regarding their morale selectivity) is their slavish devotion to the Koran. Even with all the trappings of a modern democratic state, they would still have the instincts of bloodthirsty savages so long as they follow that Great Evil (the Koran). Read it and weep.
August 1st, 2006 at 3:23 pm
“We can forgive you for killing our sons. But we will never forgive you for making us kill yours”.
Oh, poor you…
I mean sorry, but can’t you see how arrogant and self-satisfied this statement is?
I am so superior to you that I even feel pain when I kill you…
You kill me for my own good? I force you to kill me? I am too stupid to realise that you do not want to kill me?
I force you to come and colonise another country , Golda?
August 1st, 2006 at 3:35 pm
The palis, well, they have paid a huge price again and again for really stupid decisions
Yes, they did I agree
, made over and over again, by their worthless leaders, and for electing their worthless leaders.
Myth, When did the Palestinians get to elect a leader? do you mean Arafat? he was chosed by himself, Israel and the US –not by the Palestinians
They are the one group most able to positively impact their own future,
This is true…and I think they will, eventually. But you cannot avoid the fact that Israel controls so much of everyday life for Palestinians…they cannot get a passport, import , export, travel abroad, travel between WB&Gaza or travel within the west bank without Israel’s permission. Also, not much of their land is left after the wall and the closure of Jerusalem and the Jordan valley.
and the steadfastly refuse to take sane or reasonable positions on how to advance themselves.
Myth Myth Myth!
What did the Palestinians refuse? A state made out of 4 sections on parts of the west bank and Gaza? and no solution for the refugees and Jerusalem (that’s basically what Barak offered).
I think the biggest mistake the Palestinians made was to ask for their own state…they should’ve asked for equal rights in Israel and started a non-violent revolution…but hey, who said the world made sense…
I am depressed now…
August 1st, 2006 at 3:41 pm
Alaa, i think the problem in perspective isn’t what you believe God is but what the people who are prepared to kill for him believe. there are many decent honest honourable christians in the world but does anyone remember about the Inquisition? Didn’t take many christians to wreak havoc there.
You argue about what the Quran says but i have heard a non-ending stream of differing interpretations about what God does or does not say on this and any number of issues.
The real problem is when men think God approves of them killing other people, in his name or any other. They throw off any responsibility they have for their actions and lose all ethical restraint, they repose all their moral duties as thinking human beings in their deity.
August 1st, 2006 at 3:57 pm
Oh, poor you…
I mean sorry, but can’t you see how arrogant and self-satisfied this statement is?
I am so superior to you that I even feel pain when I kill you…
You kill me for my own good? I force you to kill me? I am too stupid to realise that you do not want to kill me?
I force you to come and colonise another country , Golda?
Ugh. This is why there can be no peace Alaa. This is why there never will be.
We hate what you make us do. You think it is arrogant that we hate what you make us do. You have some sort of inferiority complex. Fine, whatever. You deal with it.
Just stop killing us. Cause we are going to respond.
Do you force us to kill you? Yes Alaa, you do. Until you get this, that everytime a rocket kills us, a bullet pierces a brain, a little child is obliterated by yet another splodeydope, we have no choice but to respond. We saw what happens when we fail to respond.
That game is over.
Colonizing? Oh please. Give it up. That argument isn’t even worth touching anymore to refute.
The ball has been in your court for 60+ years Alaa, and you are showing exactly why it is fumbled again and again and again …
August 1st, 2006 at 3:59 pm
Alaa,
I deeply respect you, and if there were more of your kind, there’d be probably no “Near East conflict”.
You’ve put a lot of effort in posting and just wanted to tell you that it was read and is appreciated.
I mean, the main point is that we share some common believes, like “violence is bad”, “a solution can be found” etc., and taking a start from this, something can really be done.
However, I don’t share your optimism in regard of other Arabs. I do believe there is a deep-rooted culture of hatred and honour in this society which cannot be easily overcome.
You write you’re depressed (and I can understand that: You write on your own against dozens of other commentators), but I’m depressed too in these days.
Have a look at the Arab blogs. Many of the moderates (take Highlander or Hal) definitely changed their position in these last days, and I wouldn’t call them moderate any more. (Crude conspiracy theories and/or leaving Israel just the possibilty of going away isn’t moderate.)
So there are only very few blogs left like SM or BP, and I would love to know how many Arabs share their views: 1% 2% ?
This whole situation looks pretty dark. I don’t believe that Islam is the problem (hell, Saddam wasn’t a nice guy, but I don’t think is devout) but rather this honour and hatred code Arab society is constructed on. They won’t overcame it in the short term, they will attack again, and Israel will react. And the vicious circle starts again.
I used to be more optimistic. I thought if Palestians could live lifes in dignity, all those tensions would go away. I was wrong. This time, H-A started it. Well, well.
August 1st, 2006 at 4:00 pm
Gary Gluon - it’s not a generalization to state that the protest against the Vietnam war originated and was nowhere as big as it was in the US. However, I’ll readily admit I from time to time generalize too. In addition, I think it’s not a bad thing per se. Generalizing is in fact required in all communication - it’s a way of defining abstract categories you can talk about, rather than having to define each individual instance, which would be far more timeconsuming. I think however generalizing is wrong in some instances - when you apply characteristics of one subcategory to an entire category, which frequently occurs when Westerners discuss Muslems.
I’ll have you know I’ve read parts of the Koran. I dislike that you should describe followers of the Koran as bloodthirsty savages. As mentioned before, I know a couple of followers of the Koran, who are in fact really nice, peace-loving, intelligent, humble persons.
(BTW - I’m European)
August 1st, 2006 at 4:01 pm
Alaa - “I think the biggest mistake the Palestinians made was to ask for their own state…they should’ve asked for equal rights in Israel and started a non-violent revolution…but hey, who said the world made sense…”
Now I am impressed. Clever thinking.
August 1st, 2006 at 4:06 pm
SM:
Thanks for your continuing sanity in a situation that could drive the best of us crazy.
Some more uncomfortable questions for you
Last night on, of all things, the O’Reilly show, Mr. Bill made an interesting point.
He noted the worldwide demonstrations against Israel for the Quana incident. Then he asked (and I’m paraphrasing massively): when did you see large public demonstrations, anywhere in the West or the muslim world, against such incidents as beheading of a kidnapped journalist; sunni-shiite (and vice versa) killings in Iraq; disco bombing in Bali; thousands of rocket attacks from Lebanon into Israel; or any other “islamic” atrocity whatsoever
Interesting, no? His term for this was “selective moral outrage”, which I think pretty much nails it. Israelis killing citizens: bad. Muslims killing anyone whatsoever: neutral (if not good). So, sadly, I think your coworkers are probably typical, not just of Lebanon, but of much of the world. I’m not sure quite what to make of it: interested in anyone’s take on why the emotional response would be so one-sided.
I have little doubt that hiz would be using far more lethal ordinance if it had it. The above examples create no confidence that there’d be an outcry against this.
Actually, although increasingly sceptical, I’m inclined to believe IDF’s claims that they are trying to minimize civilian casualties. What’s absolutely clear is that, for their opponents, civilian casualties are the strategic objective. If we are moral beings: shouldn’t this be what we are protesting (first)?
I remain troubled and sad for the people of Lebanon. For god’s sake: someone please get rid of the haters who precipitate such tragedies. I don’t much care who gets rid of them or how. But I grieve for the so-called “collateral damage” that occurs in the process.
August 1st, 2006 at 4:07 pm
Canicula,
My point is that Islam is not a problem in itself, It’s just a religion and like all religions it is based on belief and tradition. I think it is hypocritical to single out Islam and blame it for all what is wrong with the ME, when the truth is the opposite: All the things that are wrong with the ME created the extremism (they just happened to use Islam this time, in the 1960’s it was communism or Pan-Arab nationalism).
By the way, I just looked up some opinion polls…support for violent action against israeli targets(all including settlers and IDF –not just suicide bombings) among Palestinians was around 40-45% in Nov 2004. This is about half of the 80% figure floating around.
i guess the truth may be somewhere in between.
August 1st, 2006 at 4:08 pm
Uhm Kranky, Alaa replied to the statement that Arabs (I’ll write Arabs for the sake of easy reading) could not be forgiven by Israeli’s for forcing Israeli’s to kill them. That is more than a bit arrogant to say, regardless of who’s right.
It’s not only arrogant, it’s also plain wrong. The killing of 37 children is not something ‘the Arabs’ forced the Israeli’s to do.
Depending on how conscious the Israeli’s were of the final results of their actions in Quana, at best (for the Israeli’s) -it’s a grave mistake by the Israeli’s and a very deplorable accident. Not something the Israeli’s were *forced* to do.
August 1st, 2006 at 4:09 pm