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Tuesday, 1 Aug 2006
I had an interesting conversation yesterday with a co-worker, on the concept of the disporportinate Israeli attacks on Lebanon compared to Hezbollah attacks. He pointed to me his dismay at Hezbollah's rockets ineffeciency at hitting targets. He said "If you noticed, they bomb each other almost equally in amounts of missiles shot, but 90% of Hezbollah's rockets miss or hit nothing, while all of Israel's rockets hit something. If Hezbollah had better rockets, the civillian death toll on the Israeli side would be huge, and they would be really hurting by now."
Impressed by this point of view that I haven't considerd before, I asked him what he would've thought, if a Hezbollah rocket had attacked a building in Israel, killing 55 civillians, of which 30 were children. He responded immeidtely "I would've thought it was great! A7san!".
So I repeated the same question to 8 other co-workers, and the responses so far have been as follows: 7 said they would celebrate, and 2 said that such an attack would've been bad, but justified! Yeah! Not a single person said that the death of any civllian, on either side, is an equal tragedy. Civillians dead on our side is tragic, civillian deaths on their side cause for celebration. And if you think I am being unfair or demonizing arabs or whatever, do me a favor and try it at your work place and/or with members of your family. Conduct this little social experiment and see for yourself. The results are very interesting.
This begs another question: If we were the ones who had the superior military machine, would we have shown them any mercy, or any regard to their civillian casualties? Would we have hesitated to wipe them all out? Armed forces, civillians, whatever? Would any of us have felt bad about it at all? Or would we be filled with the feelings of Pride, honor and dignity that we keep talking about day and night?
I am just wondering!
What do you think?
August 1st, 2006 at 10:56 am
BP -
I think the results of your little survey show just how irrational this whole situation has become. How can your co-workers essentially support a double standard like this? One can’t complain about the Israelis and give a pass to the other side - it just doesn’t make sense! These things happen in war, either by mistake or on purpose, and it’s a shame regardless of who did what to whom.
August 1st, 2006 at 11:02 am
So? Is it finally the time to drop that stupid and misleading word “disproportionate” as regards to the Israeli response?
A word that was out-of-place form the first day.
August 1st, 2006 at 11:07 am
You get the point.
August 1st, 2006 at 11:08 am
Rich, why are u calling me BP?
August 1st, 2006 at 11:15 am
I am afraid of trying this survey among my co-workers. I guess that I would recieve the same anwers.
But I dont think if we had the super military machine we would do worse than this. But who are the ‘We’ here. Arabs? Egyptians? Jordanians? HezbAllah? Maybe some extremist would do, but the majority of the Arabs won’t, I guess.
They are just talking now out of bitterness and rage. A sense of revenge.
August 1st, 2006 at 11:16 am
It is a very good of you to mention this. our people are shooting themselves in the foot by being intellectually lazy and supporting suicide bombings and that stuff. It all stems from a sense of humiliation and helplesness (and perhaps a decreasing average IQ as all the intelligent people emigrate?).
I think both sides of this conflict are de-humanizing the other side — as people do in conflict, when animalistic tribalism kicks in, and rational thinking and empathy are shut-down. I don’t think Isrealis would be much better though -I read Hebrew, and the talkbacks you get on Israeli websites are just atrocious. Things like “napalm the whole of south lebanon”, “kill every Shi’ite in lebanon”, ” deport all our enemies [The Palestinians] from our home[Palestine/Israel]“…etc…
I think if Arab states ever devoloped the social, political and economic structures that would support a strong military -they would be much more enlightened and tolerant as a result. Israel is also trying to sell itself as an enlightened democracy -”an oasis among savages” as Barak put it- and has a lot more to lose (and not much to gain) from massive killing of civilians. Hizbullah (which mostly targeted military targets in it’s history) is trying to make Israel pay for attacking Lebanon -a plan which isn’t really working.
I know you have a “get over the past” attitude towards the Israeli/Arab conflict, but there are many reasopns why this is still an open wound and why it’s still an engine of hatred in the region.
By the way, the Israeli army has admitted that Hizbullah was not in Qana…not surprising really as Lebanese and Palestinian civilians don’t matter much.
August 1st, 2006 at 11:21 am
If we were the ones who had the superior military…
I for one dearly hope that this remains an academic question.
But you rightly make the point that attempting to claim the moral high ground is laughable if: ‘you would if you only could’.
August 1st, 2006 at 11:37 am
You just keep missing the point of this conflict… As one of the Iranian clerics said “Islam does not recognize the concept of civilians”.
August 1st, 2006 at 11:46 am
Alaa says:
By the way, the Israeli army has admitted that Hizbullah was not in Qana…not surprising really as Lebanese and Palestinian civilians don’t matter much.
Here are arial photos of Qana http://players.mediazone.co.il/media/authors/34/playlists/2423/2423_static.asx
showing missles being hidden in Qana.
Papamishka Says:
You just keep missing the point of this conflict… As one of the Iranian clerics said “Islam does not recognize the concept of civilians”.
Then how can the Lebonese bitch about civilian casualties?
August 1st, 2006 at 11:47 am
Hmmm - I’m probably going to be alone in this, but I think that if the Arab nations (not talking about the terrorists) outpowered Israel from a military perspective, this would not imply the crushing of Israel.
To obtain sophisticated military equipment, and the personnel to operate it, you need an environment that will stimulate scientific research, a viable economy able to support the military effort, decent commercial relationships with partner countries who must be able to supply you with hi-tech equipment and therefore will probably foster a similar environment of research and a strong economy.
It’s my opinion you do not get those conditions unless you have a well-functioning democracy, or something close to it, a capitalist or semi-capitalist system and a mercantile tradition.
Now.
The Arab nations have a mercantile tradition much older and originally more developed than the European countries (including the USA and Japan - as I’m referring to European mercantile tradition) - but they got behind in the race and are outdated now.
There was a period in history when the Arab nations were home to stunning achievements in mathematics and science - but that period too, lies behind us.
To have the viable economy, you need a capitalist system and a strong rule of law. This means less corruption, more schooling (try teaching kids math and languages instead of making them recite koranic verses and anti-western slogans, to put it without nuance) - basically, you need a democracy.
People living in a democracy usually resent the idea of indiscriminately killing off civilians, and will in the event of war, force their military and executive leaders to prevent it to the extent possible.
Proof? The protest against the US’s behaviour in Iraq (and Vietnam) was nowhere as strong as in the US itself.
Just some thoughts, but basically - by the time the Arab nations’ military would outpower Israel - which is a possibility - I’m betting statements such as: wipe them all out, would decrease in frequency.
Ulysses.
August 1st, 2006 at 11:49 am
SM,
For what it’s worth, my co-workers, and my friends, all Israelis, all think that what happened in Qana is a tragedy. Perhaps you’re working with the wrong people … ?
Alaa, you said: “By the way, the Israeli army has admitted that Hizbullah was not in Qana” - Can you please provide a source for this? Even in Hebrew? I can’t find any reference to it, whilst I’ve seen quite a lot of Lebanese evidence that HA was quite definitely in Qana …
August 1st, 2006 at 11:49 am
Alaa was too quick for me and posted his comment while I was typing mine.. Shall we say great minds think alike, Alaa?
think if Arab states ever devoloped the social, political and economic structures that would support a strong military -they would be much more enlightened and tolerant as a result. Israel is also trying to sell itself as an enlightened democracy -”an oasis among savages” as Barak put it- and has a lot more to lose (and not much to gain) from massive killing of civilians. Hizbullah (which mostly targeted military targets in it’s history) is trying to make Israel pay for attacking Lebanon -a plan which isn’t really working.
August 1st, 2006 at 11:51 am
A. Civilians are often targets of conflict as in Dresden, Hiroshima, The Blitz, and in money other instances (which is slowly changing).
B. Although I am not religious- I really think the statement “Islam does not recognize civilians” is unfair. Islamic tradition recognizes a rudimentary concept of civilians, probably more than Judaism and Christianity.
C. Why do you quote some nutcase mullah, and generalise to Islam and the Arab-Israeli conflict?
August 1st, 2006 at 11:53 am
“To obtain sophisticated military equipment, and the personnel to operate it, you need …. It’s my opinion you do not get those conditions unless you have a well-functioning democracy, or something close to it, a capitalist or semi-capitalist system and a mercantile tradition.”
Aha. It seems that you have never heard of the Soviet Union, have you? It wasn’t a democracy (not even close), it wasn’t capitalist (not even semi), and it did have the hugest army in the Army. Read more history books, do less hobby philosophising.
August 1st, 2006 at 11:59 am
Nominally challenged:
http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/spages/745130.html
“. בתוך כך גוברים הספקות בנוגע לעובדות שהוצגו לכלי התקשורת בנוגע להפצצת הבית בקנא שלשום. אתמול התברר כי מחצר הבית שהופצץ לא אותרו שיגורי קטיושות בעבר וכי לא היה מידע על הימצאות אנשי חיזבאללה במקום.
הבית נבחר כיעד משום שבעבר שוגרו קטיושות לא הרחק ממנו, ובחיל האוויר הוחלט לתקוף כמה בתים ברדיוס מסוים ממקום השיגור, כפי שנעשה באתרי שיגור נוספים. ביום התקיפה לא אותרו שיגורים מכפר קנא. מצה”ל נמסר אתמול כי הצבא ממשיך בבדיקת האירוע”
Ok-it changed a bit since the morning , I guess they got more information…
Ulysses :
, yes …ehm…great minds indeed
I am sure you thought of it before me
August 1st, 2006 at 12:00 pm
Alaa,
With all due respect, I think you are making an unfair assessment of the Israelis. Nearly everyone I speak to here is quite upset about what is happening to the Lebanese people, though I think that people do tend to place more blame on Hezbollah for this than on Israel. Admittedly, most Israelis support the war on Hezbollah, but this support often goes hand-in-hand with sorrow because of the resulting situation on the ground in Lebanon. The comments that you are reading on the Israeli websites are not representative of the overall feelings of most Israelis. Indeed, it has been my experience that the people leaving these extreme comments aren’t usually the quickest bunnies in the forest, and while they probably believe what they are writing, most sane people wouldn’t agree with them.
August 1st, 2006 at 12:05 pm
Though it’s obvious in everything I see (on Fox) and read (on the internet) that the hatred is so intense that, given the chance, *most* Muslim and Arab peoples would exterminate the state of Israel and all who live in it….. it’s still hard for me to believe it.
That’s why there will never be ‘peace’ in the region; only periodic truces. When the death of innocents no longer shock a culture or group of people, then that people have become morally bankrupt.
I support Israel’s movement into Lebanon for the purpose of eradicating Hezbollah and I thought they were foolish to turn over Gaza and the West Bank to Hamas….all they did (and the world knows it!) was to provide the opportunity for it’s ancient enemies to hide within it’s vest. Israel will cease to exist if it tries to follow the rules and dictates of world opinion.
August 1st, 2006 at 12:30 pm
SM, I commend you for asking such revealing questions of your country men. It would be even more revealing to know what your co-workers reaction would be if Hezbollah were the stronger power in a skirmish with either the US or a country in Europe. I imagine the responses would be the same. This only deepens the worlds belief that many in the ME believe that if you are not a Muslim, you are an infidel and therefore wortheless. Your co-workers obviously do not realize that their views create anymosity with anyone who is not a Muslim, especially when the person hearing such vial opinions is from a country targetted by the Muslim fundamentalists. It brings back the images of Palestinians and Muslims in many other parts of the world celebrating after 9/11.
Your co-workers fail to realize that so many of the people they hate, actually care deeply whether it is a Muslim or Jew is lost in this conflict. That so many in the rest of the world value each and every life, without regard for their religious or ethnic background. I am one of these people, but when I hear comments coming from an Arab tongue and know that these beliefs are the norm rather than the exception ( as proven by the ratio you reported ), it causes even someone as unbiased as me some pause. This morning was a perfect example. I was starting to deplore Israels seemingly haphazard bombings, starting to believe that Israel was going to far and then I ready your post and my position reverts back to contemplating how Israel might simply be sick to their stomachs with the level of hate that radiates from it’s neighbors, even from Egyptians, who by now should be at peace in their minds, with Israel.
I have watched a number of Arab leaders being interviewed on CNN and MSNBC, in recent days and not a single one has at least acknowledged that Hezbolla has played a role in this conflict, not one. Instead, they have consistently called them freedom fighters and insinuated that Hamas and Hezbolla are honorable. This is sickening and made all the worse because these are govt officials from all over the Arab world, people who I would expect to be intelligent enough to at least see how Hezbolla and Hamas could have set things in motion.
Is it possible that they actually do see both sides but fear so intensly that their lives or careers might be in danger if they are seen as taking a neutral position ? It’s probable, but, either way it illustrates that the mentality of the majority of your co-workers wether it be ignorance or prejudice reaches the highest levels in even what the outside world believe are moderate Arab nations.
I know for damn sure that this view, although one could appreciate how justified it would be, is not shared by the majority of Israeli’s.
As you correctly pointed out though, Israel is dramatically stronger than any of the militant groups that peck at it so regularly and so no matter how justified Israel is in some of it’s retaliations, a biased mind will always see them as the aggressor. It is impossible for me to believe that your co-workers do not have access to the same information you do and yet you are able to condemn both sides for their actions rather than just Israel. I wish you could or would explain what makes you and the minority in your group able to see things with more clarity or even if someone else could from the ME on this site.
How are so many anti-Israeli Muslims in the ME able to simply ignore the fact that Hezbollah was the first lobbing missiles into Israel and that Hezbollah kidnapped IDF soldiers in Israeli territory, at a time when Lebanon ( excluding Hezbolla and it’s supporters ) were at peace with Israel ? That Lebanon was just getting it’s feet back on the ground in every way imaginable. That the bombed out pile of ruble connotation associated with Beirut was fading into the history books. That if Hezbolla had wanted war with Israel and had fought in the open lives and structures would have been spared. I cannot repeat my by belief enough that I do not condone the way Israel has conducted itself but I do understand why it reacted.
While I understand the natural inclination towards unity in the Islamic world ( a generalization ), I think Muslims, like your co-workers who clearly emphasized their lack of value for the life of an Israeli, should wake up to the reality that their is no honor in brotherhood when the side you are rooting for are so guilty of so many horrors themselves. It makes it that much harder for the rest of us to empathize for their cause. I personally find myself having to fight back to an impartial position when I come across opinions like the ones expressed by your co-workers. I can totally see how a Lebanese native who has just lost a loved one to an Israeli attack could be blinded by hate, but an Egyptian in an office In Cairo who refuses to see the culpability of Hezbolla in this disaster will only hinder the ME’s progress and this is very depressing for those of who want peace everywhere.
August 1st, 2006 at 12:39 pm
# 6 Alaa, very poingnant commentary.
OK related but not, can someone please tell me why some people spell it Hizbollah and others Hezbollah. Which is correct and why are there two spellings ? Not that I feel any deep need to legitimize these dogs but I do want to make sure that I adhering to correctly to the correct Arabic spelling. Nothing makes me cringe more when I hear my American friends say AY-ran, or Ay-raq, when it should be Iran and Iraq. Thanks
August 1st, 2006 at 12:40 pm
This is what i think:
A Muslim apostate must be killed (surah 9:12).
Muslims must fight until their opponents submit to Islam (surah 9:29).
A Muslim must not take a Jew or a a Christian for a friend (surah 5:51).
“Sufficient for the Jew is the Flaming Fire!” Qur’an 4:55
The punishment for those who wage war against Allah and His Prophet and make mischief in the land, is to murder them, crucify them, or cut off a hand and foot on opposite sides…their doom is dreadful. They will not escape the fire, suffering constantly.” Qur’an 5:33
“Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.” Qur’an 8:12
Would you like me to go on. There is plenty more where that came from. It’s what islam says, if you believe it then you are a real muslim.
August 1st, 2006 at 12:43 pm
Alaa - the simple fact of it is that Israelis ARE much better, simply because Israel has the military capacity to kill as many Arabs as it wishes. Please note the casulaties count.
Moreover, the comments you’re referring to are the voices of very few angry people. And even then you’re lumping together people who call for a wider military campaign with those who call for the destruction of the Lebanese Shi’a.
And Haaretz reports are highly suspect at best - it’s a radical leftie paper with a clearly pronounced suicidal agenda.
And regarding military might = scientific advance = saner populace… as the other Anon put it, USSR. Oh, and the Muslim conquest of Northern India with the ensuing prolonged holocaust.
Ta-ta.
August 1st, 2006 at 12:46 pm
#19 Frenchman
I’m not 100% sure, but I believe it’s “Hizb’Allah”
August 1st, 2006 at 12:46 pm
Alaa,
1. Thanks for the reference. You noticed, of course, that the article reports an Israeli human rights group (the Civil Rights Association) requesting that the Prime Minister conduct an inquiry into the events at Qana. Your quote says that “there are increasing doubts” regarding what took place at Qana. I think that the doubts are considerable on both sides. See, for instance, http://www.libanoscopie.com/FullDoc.asp?DocCode=994&Cat=2
By the way, SM’s post also begs the question whether there would, say, be a call in Egypt (or Lebanon, or Jordan, or anywhere else, for that matter) for a government inquiry, were the same thing to happen in Israel at the instigation of someone in that country. For that matter, when was the last time a Palestinian Human Rights Group asked the Palestinian Parliament for an inquiry into the justification of suicide bombings? Just asking …
2. I wish I could read Arabic as well as you can read Hebrew
August 1st, 2006 at 12:51 pm
# 22, thank you for the clarification Wishbone.
August 1st, 2006 at 1:18 pm
“I think if Arab states ever developed the social, political and economic structures that would support a strong military -they would be much more enlightened and tolerant as a result. ”
The history of Europe up to 1945 does not support that theory.
August 1st, 2006 at 1:20 pm
There are a few things suspicious about the Kafr Qana? building that was destroyed and killed 50 persons.
From what I’ve heard, the red cross can account for only some 20 odd killed. There is the strange discrepancy between when the building was hit (actually the bomb hit in ths street, missing a direct hit) and when it collapsed. Also, there weren’t any men killed, mostly children. Why would that be?
Could Hizballah have done this on purpose, either attracting Israeli targetting or using their own explosives to create a media event and an outcry from Western states?
Let’s not forget the explosion on the gaza beach that was immediately attributed to an Israeli missle, only to later be discovered to be from a Palestinian mine. By then, the media had moved on and Israel left unvindicated…
August 1st, 2006 at 1:21 pm
a, a whole website dedicated to similat quotes from the bible : http://www.evilbible.com/Evil%20Bible%20Quotes.htm
Get my point?
Also, many of your quotes are partial and taken out of context, and some are (I think, I am not a Koranic expert…hehe) mistranslated
“By the way, SM’s post also begs the question whether there would, say, be a call in Egypt (or Lebanon, or Jordan, or anywhere else, for that matter) for a government inquiry, were the same thing to happen in Israel at the instigation of someone in that country. ”
Maybe someday, when these states become democracies…Also, there is peace between Israel and Egypt and Jordan.
“For that matter, when was the last time a Palestinian Human Rights Group asked the Palestinian Parliament for an inquiry into the justification of suicide bombings? Just asking … ”
There are many Palestinian organizations that are against suicide bombings. and the vast majority of Palestinians do not take part in any activities against Israel.
The Palestinian Authority doesn’t order suicide bombing, they are commited by small, decentralized cells. In contrast, The Israeli government does order its military to bomb places.
August 1st, 2006 at 1:22 pm
Anon - “Soviet Union” - yes I’ve thought about the Soviet Union. Where is the Soviet Union now? Western ’soft power’ brought it to its knees - together with the ‘inherent contradictions’ of Marxism
But while the Soviets outpowered the Chechnyans and the Afghans, I think it wrong to say they outpower the Nato countries.. Scientific progress was made a lot quicker in the US and Europe, and the Soviet Union lagged behind, and continued to lag behind more and more throughout the second half of the 20th century.
August 1st, 2006 at 1:28 pm
With regard to Europe’s history up to 1945 - yes, a lot of Nazi scientists defected to the States, where they found an environment that suited them better. Also, take note - the Nazi’s were defeated, and Europe still dislikes war, patriotism & nationalism more than the US because of its not so fond memories of the 2nd WW. In time, the Muslim extremists who push a similarily totalitarian agenda will be defeated in a similar way, even when or after they rise to power, and there will be a similar catharsis in the Middle East..
August 1st, 2006 at 1:35 pm
Alaa, you write: (and perhaps a decreasing average IQ as all the intelligent people emigrate?).
Unfortunately the organized Muslim and Arab leadership in the U.S., Canada and the U.K. (and Australia, too, from what I’ve read), support suicide bombing/martyrdom operations. This is well documented. They are just as happy to fight the Israelis down to the last Palestinians (and now Lebanese) as many of the people they left behind in the Middle East.
They have also been trying to sell Hezbollah as freedom fighters for over a decade. A very tough job in the U.S., being that they killed 241 or our soldiers who were in Lebanon on a peace keeping mission and have been screaming “Death to America” ever since.
August 1st, 2006 at 1:35 pm
What your co-worker forgot to say is that the municipalities in Israel are - if i am correct - better equiped with shelters and that many Israelis in the north went away (without being warned by Hezbollah).
August 1st, 2006 at 1:48 pm
China is definitely capitalistic by now, but surely not democratic (and they used to have nukes before their changed their economy).
I wonder how and when China “will be brought to its knees”. I admire your strong believe in happy endings, but history isn’t like that, unfortunately. Sometimes it is, sometimes not.
August 1st, 2006 at 1:55 pm
SM,
Doesn’t this relate back to your older post, “Their Left, Our Left”?
To me it seems that the Muslims of that area are a very passionate people, and rightfully feel that they have a legacy of building societies and cultivating intellect. Maybe they feel the loss of that status in the world community, maybe they feel angry that a people who once made medical and mathematical advances are now no longer allowed to say “pizza”. Still, passionate though they are, I think they are turning their anger in the wrong direction. The British colonized the area, and were not exactly the most pleasant people around. Furthermore, politician after politician who only cared for their own bank accounts and not at all for the people have perhaps left them feeling victimized and angry. They need an enemy, and I think the governments are more than happy to feed them Israel, in exchange for the people not realizing that if they stopped and looked around, they may note that they deserve more, and can do more for themselves. That’s my thought on the matter.
August 1st, 2006 at 1:57 pm
Alaa - using Bible entries as a counter argument doesn’t prove too much. The bible contradicts itself so many times. Modern Christians understand that humans wrote the thing and, being fallable, the message is what matters - not the exact text.
From what I understand, the Koran is different. The words are the Word of God ™. Not to be interpreted - simply obeyed. That is a major difference when trying to compare the two text.
Now - in speaking with some Muslim co-workers, whom I consider pretty moderate, well educated and intelligent, I don’t get the feeling that they have the same ideas about the Koran that I do about the Bible - that it is mearly a guide, written by fallable mankind and thus distorted. I get the feeling that they believe the words are the exact Word of God.
August 1st, 2006 at 2:00 pm
Alaa: //There are many Palestinian organizations that are against suicide bombings. and the vast majority of Palestinians do not take part in any activities against Israel.
The Palestinian Authority doesn’t order suicide bombing, they are commited by small, decentralized cells. In contrast, The Israeli government does order its military to bomb places. //
Don’t make me laugh. 2.7% of Palestinians voted for a party that is not based on violence. Well over 80% of Palestinians support terrorism according to polls. The Palestinian terror is instigated mostly by Fatah and Hamas - the main two political parties that rule all of PA among them. In the goold old days of Yasser, he would personally send in suicide bombers while pretending to persue peace; no official representative of PA has ever directly condemned terrorism for being terrorism - the closest they ever came up with was “terrorism at this point of time is harming Palestinian interests”.
And yes, Israeli government tells IDF to bomb places… not civilians.
August 1st, 2006 at 2:01 pm
These clips are raw footage from memri.org, a nonprofit non-partisan internet service that translates things broadcast from the Muslim World. The Muslim world MUST confront this inciting hatred because it is poisoning their children.
Al-Manar TV (Lebanon) Hitleresque Histrionic - 2/23/2006 Nasrallah: DEATH TO AMERICA http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=1053wmv&ak=null
Al-Manar (Hezbollah TV) (Lebanon) - 11/29/2005 Young Student on Hezbollah TV: ”’Just like Hitler fought the Jews”’ – We are a great Islamic nation of Jihad, and we too should fight the Jews and burn them.
http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=962wmv&ak=null
Al-Manar TV (Hezbollah TV Lebanon) - 2/18-19/2005 - Inciting Speach to tens-of-thousands: Hezbollah Crowd: DEATH TO AMERICA! http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=566wmv&ak=null
Al-Manar TV (Hezbollah TV Lebanon) - 5/15/2004 Speach to Hezbollah – Nasrallah: DEATH TO AMERICA
http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=074wmv&ak=null
Al-Manar TV (Hezbollah TV Lebanon) Broadcast - 7/16/2006 - We are waging the battle of the (Islamic) nation, whether we like it or not, whether the Lebanese like it or not.
http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=1194wmv&ak=null
ANB TV (London) - 12/14/2004 – Interview - Hizbullah PR Director Ibrahim Farhat: ”’We May Adjust Our Terminology But Will Not Change Policy”’ http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=418wmv&ak=null
Al-Jazeera TV (Qatar) - 2/16/2006 Broadcasted Speech- Nasrallah: Whoever has not tasted Jihad; the taste of martyrdom does not taste martyrdom. (i.e. it’s to die for) Let me tell you that fighting the original enemy of prophets, of Lebanon, of Arabs and of humanity has a different taste than street fighting in dark allies…As Lebanese we do not need to be part of International coalitions…Let me be clear today we do not belong to any coalition.
http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=1041wmv&ak=null
August 1st, 2006 at 2:10 pm
Dan - in my experience, the problem with western analysis of muslim tought is that we tend to generalize. We don’t realize that there are a lot of different Islams and a lot of different interpretations both of koranic texts and other religious sources. Most Muslims I’ve encountered state their interpretation is the only correct one, and that there are no different interpretations.
Logically, as they are believers, their beliefs are exclusive and will not give room for the idea that other believers may be correct too. A bit like the (I think Monthy Python) sketch where after death, it is said: Any Christians here? I’m sorry, turns out the Jews were right, to Hell you go.
This implies there are actually a lot of different interpretations of Koran, yet everyone you meet will state there is but one, and that the Koran is holy and sacred, and the Prophet’s words should not be meddled with.
The bible, contrary to the Koran, has been written by a lot of different persons over a vast period of multiple centuries. It has been the subject of scientific, theological and exegetic scrutiny for a longer period of time and to a higher degree than the Koran.
I’m just back from Tunisia (which is why I didn’t comment too much during the last few days). I have met alcohol - drinking Muslims who considered themselves practising muslims, non-alcohol drinking muslims who considered alcohol-drinking muslism “no real muslims” et caetera.
By the way - I don’t think the average Tunisian would want to destroy Israeli villages or take pleasure in the killing of either civilians and/or children in retaliation for Israel’s invasion of Lebanon.
August 1st, 2006 at 2:23 pm
Ulysses - yeah I get that impression as well (not about the Tunisians - about Muslems). I do honestly think that the religion is being used to control the populace much like Christianity was used during the Middle Ages. The only way to combat this is to educate and enlighten the masses who are intentionally kept ignorant by their leaders. Not that religious leaders cannot effect benevolent change - case in point India. It’s just that most of the 2nd and 3rd world countries leaders don’t really have their peoples best interest at heart.
August 1st, 2006 at 2:28 pm
the most tired arguments ever alaa
mistranslated- cop out, they are translated perfectly. Not many ways to translate the world kill and hatred alaa but i m welcome to your ‘interpretation
out of context- please explain the context of the above verses to show that kill really means to smother them with hugs and kisses.
As for your counterargument. Spot the difference between the quotes you have taken out of the bible and quotes from the quran. In the Quran it is the follower of the religion who is commanded to pass judgement: Muslims must fight until their opponents submit to Islam (surah 9:29). In the bible, it is God who says that he will pass judgement (vengeance is mine- deuteronomy 32:35). However before God passess judgement he says:
Matthew 5:39
But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
1 John 4:18
18There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
Matthew 5:43-45
["You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
Luke 6:27
[ Love for Enemies ] “But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
Luke 6:34-36
But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.
and the piece de resistance
1John 4:16
God is love
Interesting to note that in the 99 excellent names for God in the Qu’ran, not one of them is love.
August 1st, 2006 at 2:28 pm
I love it when SM asks his co-workers and it becomes a political position of all.
WOW that is a new research method indeed that I wasn’t aware of.
Ok guys keep going
August 1st, 2006 at 2:50 pm
try this:
http://www.islamreview.com
August 1st, 2006 at 3:02 pm
Sadly the road which we travel will be paved with blood. It will come from the screaming and unthinking fanatics who demand wiping out of a people to salve their bruised honor. SM’s poll confirms that there will be no tears shed for murder of innocents.
Every decision carries a cost, sometimes a terrible cost to it. I read how the Lebanese now uniformly hate the Israelies and that the “nuances” they speak about are now gone. Yet when I speak with Lebanese here in the states, most say that they hope their bretheren are OK, and they despise hezbullah. This is echoed in some of what we see in the papers, editorials from real people, not the fascist mouthpieces like CAIR and their ilk.
Israel pays terrible prices when it comes to forgetting its past, when it comes to forgetting where they are, and naively believing that a “peace process” will result in anything other than attacks and attempted annhilation.
SM, Alaa, and others, I appreciate open and thoughtful comments and points. You ask the Israelis your questions and you will see genuine grief over loss of life. I cannot tolerate children being murdered. I find this the epitome of despicable. Please ask your friends and co workers whether or not they would celebrate the death of a child, any child. Then ask them if they would celebrate the death of an Israeli child. The Israelis mourn and grieve over the death of arab children. The children are the ones we are supposed to be protecting, no matter where they are from, who they are, what country or religion they are from.
The Israelis are paying a huge price for their hopeful naivete.
The Lebanese are paying a huge price for their ignorance of the pink elephant in a purple tutu in the room, that every now and then pulls out a weapon and starts randomly murdering others.
The palis, well, they have paid a huge price again and again for really stupid decisions, made over and over again, by their worthless leaders, and for electing their worthless leaders. They are the one group most able to positively impact their own future, and the steadfastly refuse to take sane or reasonable positions on how to advance themselves.
When we can start valuing our kids lives and other kids lives, then we are moving forward.
We can forgive you for killing our sons. But we will never forgive you for making us kill yours.
August 1st, 2006 at 3:03 pm
I think a better question to ask of your co-workers is why do Arab armies inevitably loose?
It isn’t just technological superiority in the west that creates an unequal fight. Rather it is the fact the no Arab soldier is a free agent. Islam doesn’t encourage people to think for themselves, show initiative, or take risks. Think of the burocracy that you deal with everyday. How does your postal system work, telephone system work, what papers do you have to get to start a business, how much corruption do you face? And the list could go on and on.
From a western perspective, there just isn’t any honor in war, at all. Though there is honor in being a good soldier, member of the armed forces, etc. There is no honor in killing in killing others in the west. Snipers are not well liked by other members of the armed forces, for instance.
The ideas that motivate Jihadis and your co-workers just aren’t sustainable because of the amount of injustice that such ideas bring about among their own people. A minority are true believers, but most just want to live their own lives.
Violence in the middle east won’t go on for ever….it will stop when the oil runs out, or we make a cheap alternative here. Once that source of funds disappears, Jihad will crumble.
On the other hand, it would end if one nuke went off in a western city. Were that the case, I think the world powers would just come in and take it all away.
August 1st, 2006 at 3:12 pm
MidEast War: 64
August 11, 2006 06:00 PDT War coverage 24/7 from PJM Editors in Australia, Europe and the United States. Frequent updates when news moves. Scroll. Lebanese and Israeli bloggers covering the conflict are @ Truth Laid Bear, plus a map view….
August 1st, 2006 at 3:16 pm
OMG…
Why, exactly, are they tired arguments? I can go into detail on these quotes — and say why I think they don’t hold water, but I have a job to keep and bills to pay. I can research things and get back to you if you promise to come back and read my response…but I think you’ve made your mind already and is really happy with your sense of cultural superiority…
I am not defending Islam specifically, my point is that different people can look for different things in the same book to prove their own point. Also the fact that there are far more violent verses in the bible (and other religious texts) doesn’t prove anything about these religions today.
The fact that there are violent verses in the Koran doesn’t mean anything, nor does it prove anything about people who believe in Islam (even if they do take it literaly). It really makes me cringe when some one tries this cheap trick.
“Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.” Qur’an 8:12
I don’t think this one exists…but will have to check. (can you provite your source, please?)
Anon:
“Don’t make me laugh. 2.7% of Palestinians voted for a party that is not based on violence. Well over 80% of Palestinians support terrorism according to polls”.
Where did you get this 2.7 statistic? who gets to define which Parties are Kosher and which are not? Which country in the world has a majority of pacifists in parliment? can I label all parties I don’t like in Israel as …say ‘racist’ or ‘violent’ and say that 17% of Israelis vote for racists?
I was not talking about voting or support — how many Palestinians actually commit violent acts against Israelis? (really, not that many –I can get you exact stats, but that also requires time and I’ll get back to you with details on that if you promise you’ll read them).
I thought Israel and the US wanted Fattah to win?
Hammas won because of the PA corruption - no other reason (even some of my atheist and christian friends voted Hammas)
I never said the Palestinians are doing it right…don’t put words in my mouth. I am simply pointing out two facts :
1- There are Palestinians and Palestinian organizations that do nor agree with suicide bombings, the may not be the majority but the do exist.
2- The Palestinian authority/government/parliment has no sovreignity and no control over the suicide bombers. They are individual acts, and are not a result of any real chain of command. you cannot hold every Palestinian responsible for them. Would you hold the Israeli government responsible for the Baruch Goldstein Massacre? I wouldn’t…
Clear,
I don’t think analysing the symantics of a book that is 1500 years old tells you much about Arabs,Moslems&co. but just to point out a factual mistake…
I do not want to make this a discussion about religion, because religion isn’t really my thing…but of god’s 99 names in Islam there are:
The Compassionate
The Merciful
The Source of Peace
The Great Forgiver
The Forebearing, The Clement
The All-Forgiving, The Forgiving
The Grateful, The Appreciative
The Generous One, The Bountiful
The Loving
The Patient
My posts are all over the place…could someone take over?
August 1st, 2006 at 3:17 pm
I don’t think anyone cares about dead Jews.
August 1st, 2006 at 3:21 pm
Ulysses,
You say, ” in my experience, the problem with western analysis of muslim tought is that we tend to generalize.”
Yet, in your first comment you do generalize, when you say - “Proof? The protest against the US’s behaviour in Iraq (and Vietnam) was nowhere as strong as in the US itself.”
There could be (and are) 100 reasons why that might be so. The earliest American colonists were more advanced than the average muslim in the middle east. One should never compare what people in the States do to what muslims do.
As an example, were there widespread protests at the US invasion of the Phillipines? Yet, we were a capitalist democracy back then. Muslim societies have a LONG way to go, even after they embrace democracy and capitalism. In fact, the key difference (regarding their morale selectivity) is their slavish devotion to the Koran. Even with all the trappings of a modern democratic state, they would still have the instincts of bloodthirsty savages so long as they follow that Great Evil (the Koran). Read it and weep.
August 1st, 2006 at 3:23 pm
“We can forgive you for killing our sons. But we will never forgive you for making us kill yours”.
Oh, poor you…
I mean sorry, but can’t you see how arrogant and self-satisfied this statement is?
I am so superior to you that I even feel pain when I kill you…
You kill me for my own good? I force you to kill me? I am too stupid to realise that you do not want to kill me?
I force you to come and colonise another country , Golda?
August 1st, 2006 at 3:35 pm
The palis, well, they have paid a huge price again and again for really stupid decisions
Yes, they did I agree
, made over and over again, by their worthless leaders, and for electing their worthless leaders.
Myth, When did the Palestinians get to elect a leader? do you mean Arafat? he was chosed by himself, Israel and the US –not by the Palestinians
They are the one group most able to positively impact their own future,
This is true…and I think they will, eventually. But you cannot avoid the fact that Israel controls so much of everyday life for Palestinians…they cannot get a passport, import , export, travel abroad, travel between WB&Gaza or travel within the west bank without Israel’s permission. Also, not much of their land is left after the wall and the closure of Jerusalem and the Jordan valley.
and the steadfastly refuse to take sane or reasonable positions on how to advance themselves.
Myth Myth Myth!
What did the Palestinians refuse? A state made out of 4 sections on parts of the west bank and Gaza? and no solution for the refugees and Jerusalem (that’s basically what Barak offered).
I think the biggest mistake the Palestinians made was to ask for their own state…they should’ve asked for equal rights in Israel and started a non-violent revolution…but hey, who said the world made sense…
I am depressed now…
August 1st, 2006 at 3:41 pm
Alaa, i think the problem in perspective isn’t what you believe God is but what the people who are prepared to kill for him believe. there are many decent honest honourable christians in the world but does anyone remember about the Inquisition? Didn’t take many christians to wreak havoc there.
You argue about what the Quran says but i have heard a non-ending stream of differing interpretations about what God does or does not say on this and any number of issues.
The real problem is when men think God approves of them killing other people, in his name or any other. They throw off any responsibility they have for their actions and lose all ethical restraint, they repose all their moral duties as thinking human beings in their deity.
August 1st, 2006 at 3:57 pm
Oh, poor you…
I mean sorry, but can’t you see how arrogant and self-satisfied this statement is?
I am so superior to you that I even feel pain when I kill you…
You kill me for my own good? I force you to kill me? I am too stupid to realise that you do not want to kill me?
I force you to come and colonise another country , Golda?
Ugh. This is why there can be no peace Alaa. This is why there never will be.
We hate what you make us do. You think it is arrogant that we hate what you make us do. You have some sort of inferiority complex. Fine, whatever. You deal with it.
Just stop killing us. Cause we are going to respond.
Do you force us to kill you? Yes Alaa, you do. Until you get this, that everytime a rocket kills us, a bullet pierces a brain, a little child is obliterated by yet another splodeydope, we have no choice but to respond. We saw what happens when we fail to respond.
That game is over.
Colonizing? Oh please. Give it up. That argument isn’t even worth touching anymore to refute.
The ball has been in your court for 60+ years Alaa, and you are showing exactly why it is fumbled again and again and again …
August 1st, 2006 at 3:59 pm
Alaa,
I deeply respect you, and if there were more of your kind, there’d be probably no “Near East conflict”.
You’ve put a lot of effort in posting and just wanted to tell you that it was read and is appreciated.
I mean, the main point is that we share some common believes, like “violence is bad”, “a solution can be found” etc., and taking a start from this, something can really be done.
However, I don’t share your optimism in regard of other Arabs. I do believe there is a deep-rooted culture of hatred and honour in this society which cannot be easily overcome.
You write you’re depressed (and I can understand that: You write on your own against dozens of other commentators), but I’m depressed too in these days.
Have a look at the Arab blogs. Many of the moderates (take Highlander or Hal) definitely changed their position in these last days, and I wouldn’t call them moderate any more. (Crude conspiracy theories and/or leaving Israel just the possibilty of going away isn’t moderate.)
So there are only very few blogs left like SM or BP, and I would love to know how many Arabs share their views: 1% 2% ?
This whole situation looks pretty dark. I don’t believe that Islam is the problem (hell, Saddam wasn’t a nice guy, but I don’t think is devout) but rather this honour and hatred code Arab society is constructed on. They won’t overcame it in the short term, they will attack again, and Israel will react. And the vicious circle starts again.
I used to be more optimistic. I thought if Palestians could live lifes in dignity, all those tensions would go away. I was wrong. This time, H-A started it. Well, well.
August 1st, 2006 at 4:00 pm
Gary Gluon - it’s not a generalization to state that the protest against the Vietnam war originated and was nowhere as big as it was in the US. However, I’ll readily admit I from time to time generalize too. In addition, I think it’s not a bad thing per se. Generalizing is in fact required in all communication - it’s a way of defining abstract categories you can talk about, rather than having to define each individual instance, which would be far more timeconsuming. I think however generalizing is wrong in some instances - when you apply characteristics of one subcategory to an entire category, which frequently occurs when Westerners discuss Muslems.
I’ll have you know I’ve read parts of the Koran. I dislike that you should describe followers of the Koran as bloodthirsty savages. As mentioned before, I know a couple of followers of the Koran, who are in fact really nice, peace-loving, intelligent, humble persons.
(BTW - I’m European)
August 1st, 2006 at 4:01 pm
Alaa - “I think the biggest mistake the Palestinians made was to ask for their own state…they should’ve asked for equal rights in Israel and started a non-violent revolution…but hey, who said the world made sense…”
Now I am impressed. Clever thinking.
August 1st, 2006 at 4:06 pm
SM:
Thanks for your continuing sanity in a situation that could drive the best of us crazy.
Some more uncomfortable questions for you
Last night on, of all things, the O’Reilly show, Mr. Bill made an interesting point.
He noted the worldwide demonstrations against Israel for the Quana incident. Then he asked (and I’m paraphrasing massively): when did you see large public demonstrations, anywhere in the West or the muslim world, against such incidents as beheading of a kidnapped journalist; sunni-shiite (and vice versa) killings in Iraq; disco bombing in Bali; thousands of rocket attacks from Lebanon into Israel; or any other “islamic” atrocity whatsoever
Interesting, no? His term for this was “selective moral outrage”, which I think pretty much nails it. Israelis killing citizens: bad. Muslims killing anyone whatsoever: neutral (if not good). So, sadly, I think your coworkers are probably typical, not just of Lebanon, but of much of the world. I’m not sure quite what to make of it: interested in anyone’s take on why the emotional response would be so one-sided.
I have little doubt that hiz would be using far more lethal ordinance if it had it. The above examples create no confidence that there’d be an outcry against this.
Actually, although increasingly sceptical, I’m inclined to believe IDF’s claims that they are trying to minimize civilian casualties. What’s absolutely clear is that, for their opponents, civilian casualties are the strategic objective. If we are moral beings: shouldn’t this be what we are protesting (first)?
I remain troubled and sad for the people of Lebanon. For god’s sake: someone please get rid of the haters who precipitate such tragedies. I don’t much care who gets rid of them or how. But I grieve for the so-called “collateral damage” that occurs in the process.
August 1st, 2006 at 4:07 pm
Canicula,
My point is that Islam is not a problem in itself, It’s just a religion and like all religions it is based on belief and tradition. I think it is hypocritical to single out Islam and blame it for all what is wrong with the ME, when the truth is the opposite: All the things that are wrong with the ME created the extremism (they just happened to use Islam this time, in the 1960’s it was communism or Pan-Arab nationalism).
By the way, I just looked up some opinion polls…support for violent action against israeli targets(all including settlers and IDF –not just suicide bombings) among Palestinians was around 40-45% in Nov 2004. This is about half of the 80% figure floating around.
i guess the truth may be somewhere in between.
August 1st, 2006 at 4:08 pm
Uhm Kranky, Alaa replied to the statement that Arabs (I’ll write Arabs for the sake of easy reading) could not be forgiven by Israeli’s for forcing Israeli’s to kill them. That is more than a bit arrogant to say, regardless of who’s right.
It’s not only arrogant, it’s also plain wrong. The killing of 37 children is not something ‘the Arabs’ forced the Israeli’s to do.
Depending on how conscious the Israeli’s were of the final results of their actions in Quana, at best (for the Israeli’s) -it’s a grave mistake by the Israeli’s and a very deplorable accident. Not something the Israeli’s were *forced* to do.
August 1st, 2006 at 4:09 pm
Alaa, the palis are not going to get even what Barak offered. Land for peace is dead.
They will be lucky to escape with Gazastan at this moment.
Refugees? After UNRWA is disbanded, they will be handled by a saner and more compassionate UN refugee committee. Just like in every other conflict since then and before then. Population transfer will be the modus operandi. It has already happened, now comes time to resettle the refugees.
Jerusalem? Already decided.
The game is over Alaa, the palis played a really stupid hand, did a terrible gambit and pretty much screwed the pooch. They did this repeatedly. It is real hard for the rest of the world to feel sympathy for them when they scream at being hit back after hitting Israel. It is hard to feel sympathy when they bomb their own people on a beach, and then blame the Israelis, forgetting to use the same munitions the Israelis actually use.
Freedom? Gazastan has freedom. You don’t like it? Not our problem. There is no occupation. Never was, but that is a matter of semantics about disputed territories.
You want to be treated with respect Alaa? Precisely how should we respect an entity that claims huminitarian crises while launching missiles at a neighbor? While invading a neighbor? While formenting mayhem and murder? You obviously have a choice to make Alaa, between guns and butter. Old economics 101. And you choose guns because you know the world will pay for the butter. Well, that used to be the case. Not any more. Now you have to, which means you can’t buy guns. Ironic, isn’t it.
Don’t give us the same tired old BS that the palis give Alaa, it don’t play well anymore. Land for peace is dead. There are two “palistine”s, one of them is named Jordan, and the other is Gazastan.
August 1st, 2006 at 4:11 pm
@54, @ Alaa - the same problem occurred when Pakistan became independent from India - leaving minorities of the other belief in each country, and tensions between the countries. Gandhi went into hunger strike, this time not against the British but against his fellow countrymen, as he believed both Muslems and Hindu should be able to live in one state..
August 1st, 2006 at 4:17 pm
@ Kranky - I suppose you consider there was freedom in South Africa’s Bantustans too? You know what symbol the Afrikaner Weerstands Beweging’s logo resembles most?
August 1st, 2006 at 4:17 pm
It is an old and tired argument, and we can throw Koran and Bible quotes around till the end of time, all while claiming ‘taken out of context,’ ‘mistranslated,’ ‘not taken literally,’ etc. Maybe the Koran is easier to use to justify barbaric behavior, maybe it isn’t. It doesn’t matter. If people want to engage in savagery and still make pious claims that God is on their side, they will find a way.
That said, I’m a results-based kinda gal.
I look around and see people firing from behind civilians, claiming God told them it’s a good thing. And they’re Muslim. Don’t see many Christians or Jews doing that.
I look around and I see people deliberately murdering civilians, claiming God told them it’s a good thing. And they’re Muslim. Don’t see many Christians or Jews doing that.
I look around and I see people murdering their daughters, sisters, mothers, and wives, claiming God told them it’s a good thing. And they’re Muslim. Don’t see many Christians or Jews doing that.
I look around and I see people executing other people for crimes like apostasy, adultery, or addiction (and those are just the As), claiming God told them it’s a good thing. And they’re Muslim. Don’t see many Christians or Jews doing that.
I look around and I see people celebrating the deaths of children, claiming God told them it’s a good thing. And they’re Muslim. Don’t see many Christians or Jews doing that.
I look around and I see people throwing homicidal tantrums over cartoons, claiming God told them it’s a good thing. And they’re Muslim. Don’t see many Christians or Jews doing that.
Get the picture? I honestly do not care whether they’re ‘interpreting the Koran correctly.’ It’s not our religion and it’s not our job to figure it out. That’s Muslims’ job, and they need to start doing it in some concrete, visible way. Whatever percentage believes the ‘misguided minority’ is doing wrong needs to step up. Because we’re in a war here, and sooner or later we’re going to stop trying to sift the ‘dangerous’ Muslims from the ‘maybe dangerous’ ones and start killing them all just to be on the safe side. Most of us will feel sad about it afterward, but we’ll have an afterward.
August 1st, 2006 at 4:17 pm
Alaa, I think the major problem isn’t what is said in the Koran- it probably contradicts itself at least as well as the Bible does
.The real problem from my POV is the common interpretation given to it by religiously prominent figures like the head of Al-Azhar madrasa, which concentrates on the “fire and brimstone” part instead of the “don’t kill” part.The problem isn’t inherent to Islam, it is simply that most reputable muslim religious figures spew hate instead of love(I would love to be proved wrong, btw), that trend needs to be discouraged, and the earlier the better.
clear:
).Luckily most of our prominent religious figures along the ages chose to look at those things askane and discourage them rather then encouraging them ( a famous story tella that when someone asked Rabi Akiva “Who is the most righteous man you know?” his answer was “My goy(i.e.non jewish) launderer”).
I’m a jew.I could show you verses in the Bible that will make your blood curdle(Shmuel commanding Saul to kill every Amalek down to women and children, for example
August 1st, 2006 at 4:24 pm
Actually, Alaa, the quote is “I may be able, one day, to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons- I would never be able to forgive them for turning our sons into killers”, see, she was very worried that our people will become desensitized to death.I share that concern, for the day that the people of Israel cross that threshhold we will have become the monsters we fought for so long.
August 1st, 2006 at 4:26 pm
#57 Ulysses Says:
Uhm Kranky, Alaa replied to the statement that Arabs (I’ll write Arabs for the sake of easy reading) could not be forgiven by Israeli’s for forcing Israeli’s to kill them. That is more than a bit arrogant to say, regardless of who’s right.
Not arrogant at all. I despise that people force me to do things I find despicable. Is that arrogant? Forcing someone to become a killer when they believe strongly in the sanctity of life, all life?
How are the forcing us? By killing us. By forcing us to defend ourselves with deadly force. We could simply sit on our hands, as most of the arab world would like, and then they could do away with us, as they have been trying to and threatening to do for a long time.
Nothing arrogant about wanting to live, in peace. Nothing arrogant about hating what other people force us to do.
It’s not only arrogant, it’s also plain wrong. The killing of 37 children is not something ‘the Arabs’ forced the Israeli’s to do.
As has been pointed out here and elsewhere, there are some rather serious questions surrounding culpability at Qana. We know who is responsible for their deaths, thats hezbullah. The question of whether they died from an Israeli airstrike on neighboring buildings/rocket launchers, or Hamas munitions stored in the building is not clear. May never become clear. The world is quick to j’accuse, and slow to seek truth. Sort of like the Gaza beach bombing, which was brought to you and delivered by your friendly neighborhood hamas.
Ulysses, kids are dead. On both sides. I and others have pointed out here that many on the arab side whine only when their kids die.
Lets be real clear. If Israel killed those kids, then Israel is wrong. If Hamas/Hezbullah killed those kids, then they are wrong. Regardless, the blame for their deaths rests squarely upon the aggressors of this unneeded and unwanted war, hezbullah.
Nothing I can say or do can bring back any of the kids. On either side. Killing kids, on either side, is wrong. Do you not agree Ulysses? Alaa? SM?
Depending on how conscious the Israeli’s were of the final results of their actions in Quana, at best (for the Israeli’s) -it’s a grave mistake by the Israeli’s and a very deplorable accident. Not something the Israeli’s were *forced* to do.
Israel is forced to pursue and destroy threats against it. That these threats rise up everytime some imam has a loose bowel movement has nothing to do with Israel. Those that threaten Israel put a religious dimension to the threats. They try to perpetuate the evil that they do. And yes Ulysses, they force a response.
Hezbullah knows this, and that is why they hide amongst the civilians. It is a cynical terrible game they play. They know their aggression will be responded to. So they try to up the cost for the response by causing their own civilians maximal carnage.
If Israel killed those kids, and I use the word “if” as it is not known conclusively now, and there are more doubts emerging as time goes on, then Israel is at fault for killing them. If hezbullah killed them or staged this, and it is increasingly apparant that they have indeed stage managed this, then my disgust for those animals increases even more than before. I wouldn’t put it past them. They hide next to buildings full of civilians with their weapons, and move them quickly as we noted, and filmed.
Sad Ulyssess.
August 1st, 2006 at 4:28 pm
Achillea - “Because we’re in a war here, and sooner or later we’re going to stop trying to sift the ‘dangerous’ Muslims from the ‘maybe dangerous’ ones and start killing them all just to be on the safe side. Most of us will feel sad about it afterward, but we’ll have an afterward.”
That’s exactly the point. If ‘we’ start killing all muslims, ‘we’ will escalate this war, and ‘their’ extremistst will continue to gather support. That is why ‘we’ need to distinguish and single out the terrorists, and throw wads of money at the moderates and lots western culture at everyone. A bit of decadence, luxury and consumption capitalism would do a lot of good (and us too - western manufacturers badly need wealthy consumers).
August 1st, 2006 at 4:38 pm
Kranky,
Please think about it…Conflict happens, people die…that’s how conflicts work. If you said “Israel wants to win and that will result in military action and thus the death of civilians” i would totally understand and not protest at all. But your statement is arrogant: It assumes that your moral fiber is somehow superior to that of your enemies even when you are killing them, you are the victim even when you kill them…don’t you see that it’s a bit strange?
Israel wages war for it’s interests, that’s perfectly normal for a nation state –I wish the Israelis would just admit it.
“Just stop killing us. Cause we are going to respond”.
I didn’t kill anyone, and will never kill anyone…
“Do you force us to kill you? Yes Alaa, you do. Until you get this, that everytime a rocket kills us, a bullet pierces a brain, a little child is obliterated by yet another splodeydope, we have no choice but to respond. We saw what happens when we fail to respond.”
When did Israel fail to respond, exactly? I think it may be worth trying to respond in some way other than overwhelming force…
“Colonizing? Oh please. Give it up. That argument isn’t even worth touching anymore to refute.”
Please indulge me and refute it…I want to hear you response…
Anyway, colonization or not…we live today, not in the 1930s and there is an Isreali nation today with people who belong to the land as much as any Palestinian and it doesn’t matter how it started or whether or not it was a colonial project –
What would help is an admission from Israel that it has wronged the Palestinians in the Past, and then draw a line in the sand.
“The ball has been in your court for 60+ years Alaa, and you are showing exactly why it is fumbled again and again and again … ”
OK, Please don’t assume I represent any one…I only represent myself.
In whose court has the ball been for 60+ (1946?) years and how? Again, you are saying that Israel is not responsible for its own actions…not very productive. Anyway, why do you think it fumbled again and again and again?
Look, Kranky…I do hope and think there will be peace. I think all sides (Israel, The Palestinians, and all other parties) need to make an effort to make it happen. Right now Israel is winning on all fronts, and sees no need to work on it…but the sooner it happens the better it will be for everyone. Please think about the Golda Meir quote and try to understand why I find it arrogant and patronising. Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaassssssssssssseeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
I am not out to make enemies…I just find that particular quote really problematic (sorry, I do, can’t help it)…
Please try to think about you’re statement and
August 1st, 2006 at 4:39 pm
Alaa - 2.7% is the amount of votes Independent Palestine coalition got in the PA elections. The reason I point at them as the sole representatives of sanity in PA is because their manifesto actually opposes terrorism and genocide and is the least hateful of all the party manifestos in PA.
I consider any party based on the notion of killing all the Jews and destroying Israel to be violent, and I consider any party endorsing terrorism to be terrorist. Thus, all the political forces in PA except for IP are either genocidal, terroristic or both. In Israel there was Ka”ch, but it has been fortunately outlawed for being terrorist. Liberman’s party is somewhere on the verge - it doesn’t promote genocide or terrorism, but it does promote population transfrers, which is ethically problematic.
And you are absolutely right - few Palestinians actually perform violent acts against Israelis or each other. But then again, 80% to 85% of every army are non-combatants.
And the only hope lies in education for peace, non-violence, mutual respect and the desire for life. Unfortunately, Islamic/Arab state education promotes the opposite values, and so does the majority of religious education and sermons in these states.
Hence the unfortunate but reasonable conclusion - violence in the Middle East will last for at least one more generation, and the time period would be so brief only if massive educational and religious reforms would be implemented right now. Which they won’t.
So back to the baths of blood we go…
August 1st, 2006 at 4:40 pm
@ Kranky - I suppose you consider there was freedom in South Africa’s Bantustans too? You know what symbol the Afrikaner Weerstands Beweging’s logo resembles most?
Sorry Ulysses, the tired old apartheid argument sort of falls on its face when examined in detail. Arabs are MKs. Arabs have equal rights under the law in Israel.
Alaa’s argument about demanding citizenship and equal rights is a solution that could have worked a few years ago. Quite a few of us proposed this. Israel would be reluctant to take in an overtly hostile population as productive and law abiding citizens when they have demonstrated a propensity to violent conflict, and radical ideologies.
The best hope for Judea and Samaria is to share the citizens between Jordan and Israel, with the land annexed by Israel. This way we can avoid a terrorist entity in political power there as it is in Gazastan. No population transfer, everyone gets to keep their own land. Violence will be dealt with by prison, radical ideologies pushed aside. Palis who want to be productive Israeli citizens should get the chance to be. If they come in to subvert they need to accept they are going to be kicked out.
There is, how shall I say this, a certain … lack of trust of peaceful intentions of the palis … by the vast majority of Israelis.
The original partition plan which Israel accepted and the arabs rejected gave Israel a decidedly bantustan like shape, in case you don’t remember. It was not contiguous, nor even reasonably shaped. It was completely indefensible. Yet the Israelis realized that they would never get a deal as good, no matter how rotten it was. So they took the deal and made it work. They didn’t whine about bantustan. They made it work.
The palis have had a chance to make Gazastan work. And look what evil they have wrought. No Ulysses, the tired arguments about contiguous space, apartheid and all the other false accusations are seen for what they are. You want to keep making them, go right ahead, but you risk your own credibility in doing so, as they have been thoroughly debunked.
Now I challenge you to look forward, rather than backward. What could Gaza become if the palis stopped buying weapons and started investing in building a country? How quickly do you think Israel would jump at a chance to invest in a peaceful neighbor? How quickly do you think the economy would grow if this happened? How much better off would the palis be if this happened?
August 1st, 2006 at 4:41 pm
@ Kranky:
“Ulysses, kids are dead. On both sides. I and others have pointed out here that many on the arab side whine only when their kids die.
Lets be real clear. If Israel killed those kids, then Israel is wrong. If Hamas/Hezbullah killed those kids, then they are wrong. Regardless, the blame for their deaths rests squarely upon the aggressors of this unneeded and unwanted war, hezbullah.
Nothing I can say or do can bring back any of the kids. On either side. Killing kids, on either side, is wrong. Do you not agree Ulysses? Alaa? SM?”
We do not differ so much, Kranky. I do not doubt Israeli kids are killed too. I do not dispute Hezbollah’s responsibility. So yes, I agree.
But I still disagree that HA forced you to kill Lebanese kids. I agree they bear responsibility for the kids’ death, if that makes you happy.
But if it was an “error” on Israel’s side, then you cannot say you were forced - as nobody can force you to err. You can say you would not have erred without Hezbollah’s initiating this unneeded, uncalled for war. And you can say Hezbollah was not justified to initiate this war. But you remain responsible for your own errors.
And, assuming, as is in all probability the case, that those kids were killed by Israeli’s, then it’s either a grave and deplorable mistake, an error, or, if it was a conscious act, a very despicable crime.
August 1st, 2006 at 4:48 pm
How very sad.
August 1st, 2006 at 4:49 pm
Here’s a proposal settle the current conflict, from someone in a positon to know.
http://www.tayyar.org/tayyar/articles.php?article_id=16171&type=GMA
August 1st, 2006 at 4:56 pm
I honestly do not care whether they’re ‘interpreting the Koran correctly.’ It’s not our religion and it’s not our job to figure it out. That’s Muslims’ job, and they need to start doing it in some concrete, visible way.
Can’t agree more, but you also need to realise that moderate muslim voices that are calling for reformation and re-interpretation of Islam are not as sensational as a guy with a hook and an eye-patch …so you’ll see Abu Hamza much more in the media than Tariq Ramadan.
Whatever percentage believes the ‘misguided minority’ is doing wrong needs to step up. Because we’re in a war here, and sooner or later we’re going to stop trying to sift the ‘dangerous’ Muslims from the ‘maybe dangerous’ ones and start killing them all just to be on the safe side. Most of us will feel sad about it afterward, but we’ll have an afterward.
This is scary, this is why I am so worried about this vilification of Islam and muslims…It will lead to genocide.
So Hitler solved Europe’s “Jewish question” and now Europe is in the “feeling sorry afterwards” phase? Does the same apply to pre-columbian americans? is that what you’re saying?
How do you suggest killing a fifth of the world’s population (that will result in a lot of pollution)?
I am agnostic by belief, but culturally I am muslim (grew up in a Muslim family)…do I need to die as well?
What about my children? their mother is Atheist European…but they may need to die as well (just to be sure)
What about Arab Christians?
August 1st, 2006 at 5:02 pm
Ok Alaa I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt. I do not believe that the quote is patronizing or arrogant. I do hate when people make me do something I don’t feel I should have do, not because it is beneath me, but because I find the act so morally repugnant.
Here are my views laid bare.
I think that Israel and the Palis can live side by side in peace. Lots of trust is going to need to be built up. But it can happen.
Israel would fight tooth and nail to invest in a palis economy that is peaceful and willing to trade with it, protect property and people, with a rule of law.
The only solution I see as functional for refugees is what Israel did. Israel took its refugees in from other countries and settled them. The arabs keep their refugees in camps which resemble small cities now.
For the moment, while there is no peace, the only way I see a solution to the refugee problem for arabs is to settle them in Gaza, in Jordan, in Egypt, in Syria, in Lebanon. They are there already. If palis ever emerges as a peaceful state, then Palis can return there. Israel cannot accept a returning subversive and hostile force entering it. Aside from this, the arab nations expelled all their jews after 1948, and Israel took them in. All without compensation. For no reason. This is a population transfer, and it needs to occur. The land question was set in concrete when Hamas launched their war after taking power. How could a people in control of their own government and resources focus upon waging a war when they should be building a country? Don’t you think the Israel left would be falling all over themselves to give up land to a peaceful neighbor? Big hint: yes they would.
Now lets fast forward 50 years. Look at how many Japanese live in the US. And Germans. Bitter enemies in the past. Now deep friends. It took a deep and painful de-nazification of germany, and an imposition of democracy upon the Japanese, but both are now strong friends and allies. There are few restrictions on these people in the US, and they can live, own homes, own property, freely travel. This wasnt the case when there were hostilities. Some Germans in the US did spy for Germany in that war, and some saboteurs were caught and dealt with. On the other hand, the loyal Japanese Americans and German Americans when an extra mile (1.6km) to demonstrate their loyalty to a nervous population.
It can work, though it is going to take decades, and a similar deprogramming. Arab media needs to stop its dehumanizing. Memri collects the evidence of this and most of it is appalling.
Israel could be friendly towards palis. Same with Lebanon.
All it requires Alaa is peace. The rest follows.
Note that Israeli business people are trying hard to invest in Jordan and Egypt, but they keep running afoul of laws that prevent ownership of property by jews. Not very conducive to formenting peace, eh? Let them invest, and you will see money pour in to build.
Alaa, I want there to be peace, but I don’t know how it can happen when one side seems to get its jollies and ’street creds’ from whacking people on the other. Doesn’t seem conducive to trust.
What I would like to see is the palis wage peace. Do it like Gandhi. Israel wants it, and the left has been waiting for this, tricking themselves into believing that Arafat was Gandhi, and now Mazen. If you really truly want the peace Alaa, then convince the palis to put down their weapons, and stand back from them. Watch what happens. You will be amazed.
August 1st, 2006 at 5:04 pm
[...] Sandmonkey had an informal poll with some of his co-workers. The results were not surprising to me. Impressed by this point of view that I haven’t considerd before, I asked him what he would’ve thought, if a Hezbollah rocket had attacked a building in Israel, killing 55 civillians, of which 30 were children. He responded immeidtely “I would’ve thought it was great! A7san!”. [...]
August 1st, 2006 at 5:05 pm
Let’s not stray from the core discussion, shall we? SM had an informal survey, and we all heard the results. Let’s not engage in lengthy discussions about the merits of Quran vs. Torah vs the Bible, especially since it is my hunch that not many of the contributors blacken the pages regularly.
In the decades of conflict between Israel and its Arab neighbours, some red lines were never crossed: shelling and bombing of Israeli cities and towns. The Arab goverments avoided this because they knew that Israel would shell and bomb their towns in returns. These red lines were crossed when terrorist groups entered the picture: Hezbollah and Palis were the first Arabs fighting with Israel to shell and bomb civilian targets inside Israel. This is because, unlike the legitimate governments, the terror groups feel no responsibility for the civilians in their territories. Au contraire: they welcome collateral damage inflicted on their own civilians by Israel, as it furthers their political goals and is a huge propaganda scoop.
August 1st, 2006 at 5:08 pm
On the subject of Ghandi, in the words of his assassin:
“One of the conditions imposed by Gandhi for his breaking of the fast
unto death related to the mosques in Delhi occupied by the Hindu
refugees. But when Hindus in Pakistan were subjected to violent attacks
he did not so much as utter a single word to protest and censure the
Pakistan Government or the Muslims concerned. Gandhi was shrewd enough
to know that while undertaking a fast unto death, had he imposed for
its break some condition on the Muslims in Pakistan, there would have
been found hardly any Muslims who could have shown some grief if the
fast had ended in his death. It was for this reason that he purposely
avoided imposing any condition on the Muslims. He was fully aware of
from the experience that Jinnah was not at all perturbed or influenced
by his fast and the Muslim League hardly attached any value to the
inner voice of Gandhi.”
http://ngodse.tripod.com/defense.htm
August 1st, 2006 at 5:19 pm
Alaa,
these genocide thoughts are interesting indeed. I’ve tried hard to understand what those SS folks thought. They came from normal families, mostly had no criminal background and quickly became reckless murderers on a scale never imagined before or reached later.
There is one speech of Himmler (head of SS) to officers which gives some glimpse of what they were thinking. Its gist is that killing is a dirty business; and you must be superhuman if you do it and *still* stay a proper person.
That’s the point. They believed that there was some danger, some wickedness, some curse with the Jews, and if they were extirpated, there would be bright sunshine for the whole world for ever afterwards.
You’re probably right that more and more people imagine now that Earth would be a much better place without Muslims. They ignore, however, that mane peoples before where the bad guys (like Germans some 60-70 years ago, and nobody complains about them anymore). Hope all of this will be fine in our lifetime …
August 1st, 2006 at 5:20 pm
yes but
ohlmert and the israelis are so far down the path of everybody is trying to kill me and its not my fault that they have not tried the obvious way to use morality against hezbollah
why doesnt ohlmert make a speech:
hezbollah you hide among civilians . you camoflage yourself with civilians. we can not bomb you without hitting civilians. We can not fight you without risking shooting civilians.
You use our own morality as a weapon against us.
So I ask the people of lebanon what we should do?
I ask Hezbollah what honor it has?
To proceed in this war means that innocents will be killed. We can reduce your cities to graveyards. We can hit the hezbollah even among innocents. But innocents will die. What haonor is there in killing people who are not part of this war?
Is this the choice hezbollah has made for the lebanese?
We have no desire for war among the lebanese. So we ask them, take the weapons away from hezbollah. Avoid the civilian deaths. It is the only moral action to take.
Lebanese and hezbollah find your honor
August 1st, 2006 at 5:26 pm
Historian - interesting idea!
An attempt to appeal to the honor and morality of Hizballah… I guess nobody thought about it because nobody believed it’ll do any good.
August 1st, 2006 at 5:31 pm
But I still disagree that HA forced you to kill Lebanese kids. I agree they bear responsibility for the kids’ death, if that makes you happy.
Ulysses, kids are dead. I am not happy. I am greiving. I don’t care who killed them. Who ever did is wrong. Period.
Hezbullah does bear responsibility in the final analysis, not just for their death, but for the destruction they have allowed to occur, encouraged to occur. I don’t know anyone actually disputing this, from the arabs cheering them on and singing praises to their martyrs, to the governments writing strongly worded letters of condemnation.
When this ends, the pounds of flesh will be taken in the appropriate courts.
But if it was an “error” on Israel’s side, then you cannot say you were forced - as nobody can force you to err. You can say you would not have erred without Hezbollah’s initiating this unneeded, uncalled for war. And you can say Hezbollah was not justified to initiate this war. But you remain responsible for your own errors.
Yes Ulysses. That is precisely correct. We were forced to respond. And because of that it is not just very likely, but absolutely certain that innocent children died. That innocent people lost their lives.
This is not something we willingly do. We abhor violence. We abhor death. We hate ourselves for being forced to kill. This isn’t arrogance, it is deep sadness that we have to lower ourselves to the level of those killing us, and we see and accept the responsibility for what we do and what we have become in the process. While our enemy passes out sweets and sings the joy of martyrdom, and happily talks of dead jews.
If we erred, and it is possible in Qana, and absolutely guaranteed that we have in this conflict, then we bear responsibility for our error. No one in Israel is or has ever denied this. No one outside Israel has ever denied this.
Israel took responsibility for actions and deaths it has not been ultimately responible for in the past. The al-Dura bit was shown to have been a forgery after a number of groups started doing forensics analysis. There was a question as to whether he was dead, and I hope that this was merely acting. But his death, if real, was demonstrated by forensics analysis of weapons angles, of shot positions, and so on, to have only been possible from a palis position. Israel had no shot angle on him. Regardless of this, Israel took responsibility for it. The later analysis absolved them of responsibility.
The Gaza beach bombing was another, and more cynical version. Questions on that were asked early, shrapnel fragments checked against Israeli munitions used in the area. The shrapnel that was found in the bodies, not the people where it was gouged out of, was found to be something the palis used, not the Israelis. Yet Israel initially accepted responsibility.
Ulyssess, Israel does not want to kill anyone. Never has wanted this.
And, assuming, as is in all probability the case,
With each additional bit of data, the probability of this is decreasing. It is looking a great deal like a setup. A cynical terrible evil setup. But a setup nonetheless.
that those kids were killed by Israeli’s, then it’s either a grave and deplorable mistake, an error, or, if it was a conscious act, a very despicable crime.
I’ve said it before, and I will say it again. If Israel did this, and if Israel killed those kids, and it is looking less like that with each additional analysis, then yes, Israel is at fault for doing so. If Israel did not do this, and again, the data is strongly suggesting hezbullah did this and stage managed it, it does not change the fact that kids are dead.
That Ulyssess is what is unbearable to me.
Hezbullah is responsible in the end, and they will be dealt with. I dont want to see any more kids killed. By anyone. Sadly this will not come to pass.
Israel does not deny its errors. It admits them in front of the press. It holds people responsible for their failures when they result in loss of life. It punishes them.
Exactly what does Israel’s enemy do when a kaytusha takes out a grandmother and her 6 year old grandson? Pass out sweets. Disgusting.
August 1st, 2006 at 5:38 pm
Achillea,
Very well put and I think this is what matters in the end. Results.
Yet I must say as an Arabic speaker, I’m so sick of that mistranslated argument. I’ve read the Quran and the Hadith in Arabic and there’s no way getting around it: there is so much violence in it. The problem Islam has is that it is unlucky in that it came last so that there are innumerable references to Jews and Christians, whereas the violence in the Torah is directed at nations and religions that no longer exist. So I’m not saying one religion is superior to another, I’m just saying Islam got a rough deal coming last. And it obviously feels like it’s vying with the preceding 2 religions upon which it is wholly based and this can be seen by the quantity of apologistic ayaat referring to both Jews and Christians.
Timing is everything! I agree with Achillea that Islam better reform itself soon or else we’re headed for massive destruction. Moderate Muslims wherever you’re at, let your voices be heard.
jack
August 1st, 2006 at 5:46 pm
Now lets fast forward 50 years. Look at how many Japanese live in the US. And Germans. Bitter enemies in the past. Now deep friends. It took a deep and painful de-nazification of germany, and an imposition of democracy upon the Japanese, but both are now strong friends and allies. There are few restrictions on these people in the US, and they can live, own homes, own property, freely travel. This wasnt the case when there were hostilities. Some Germans in the US did spy for Germany in that war, and some saboteurs were caught and dealt with. On the other hand, the loyal Japanese Americans and German Americans when an extra mile (1.6km) to demonstrate their loyalty to a nervous population.
And they can vote, and run for office. Every office save 3 are open to them.
60+ years ago, an SS goon was running around with the Nazis. Today his son is governer of the 5th largest economy in the world, California, in the US.
Arabs can and do occupy all offices in Israel. There are arabs on the Israeli supreme court. There are arabs as Israeli ambassadors. There are arabs in the military. All that is asked from them is to be loyal to the state and the state will return the favor.
After a few decades of peace, I suspect that Israel would be quite happy to have more peaceful and productive citizens. But before then, they won’t willingly take a hostile 5th column into the state. That is simply not an option.
Your suggestion of demanding civil rights is the only one that could have worked some years ago. Demand citizenship, and act loyally on behalf of the state, don’t subvert it. Today I don’t think anyone will believe them.
August 1st, 2006 at 5:59 pm
#79 anon
but all hezbollah has is honor. their currency is honor. they die for dignity. they beleive in honor ( at least their definition of it)
ask them if it is more honorable to fight and then have the blood of lebanes on their hands
ask them if it is a right and proper and honorable to use the morality of their enemy as a weapon against their enemy if it causes the death of the lebanese brothers
ask them to find honor in life, in building schools, in helping the poor, but not to find honor in destoying lebanon
August 1st, 2006 at 6:01 pm
SO much time is wasted on foolishness. Instead of working to improve life we look to end it.
Yawp!
August 1st, 2006 at 6:15 pm
Historian - hmmm… I think that when they say honor, they mean something completely different from what I mean when I say honor.
Are you sure that they do not see making shaheeds out of random civilians as dishonorable?
And after Nasrallah has repeatedly stated that loving life is dishonorable (see his speeches) and that honor can only be found in death and destruction, I doubt that a request to reverse this position will be met with agreement.
But then again, it is probable that there are Lebanese who disagree with Nasrallah’s version of honor… and maybe such a speech would help to clear their eyes a bit.
August 1st, 2006 at 6:16 pm
Unfortunately, this posting appears to be disintegrating into argument over religious philosophies and questions of civics. To me SM’s posting indicates troubling signs centering on sense of superiority within the Arab world. This ugly view has repeated itself throughout history and has lead to some of the greatest human tragedies in history. Past examples range from Slavery in the United States and Europe, the belief of Arian superiority in NAZI Germany, to the cultural superiority in Pol Pot’s Khmer Rouge, Catholic / Protestant fighting in Northern Ireland, etc. In all these cases each centered on a belief that on one group was superior, and in the process those who were different were marginalized to something less than human.
This is where SM’s poll reveals the apparent double standard in his posting between Arab and Jewish civil casualties.
It appears that this “Arab superiority” concept is taught at an early age with tragic consequences. When you teach children to devalue the lives of others they will eventually grow up into adults that devalue all life. As we are seeing even in Lebanon. Hizb’Allah thugs recently stating they have a score to settle with Lebanese that did not support their cause.
It appears that after this Hizb’Allah / Israeli conflict is over the seeds of a new one may already in the works. Will Lebanon fall into civil war once again after all the pride of the superior is on the line?
August 1st, 2006 at 6:21 pm
historian, by Hezzb’Allah’s definition of honor, being suicide bomber killing Israeli children is the highest possible honor you can be bestowed.*That* is their definition of honor:That if anybody beats them and doesn’t allow them *exactly* what they want he’s “offending on their honor”.And all they want is to destroy Israel and make both it and Lebanon Islamic theocracies, using whatever methods are at hand.
Everybody who dies on their side, even the civilians who really didn’t want this war, is “martyr” anybody who objects them is either “infidel” or “heretic”.
August 1st, 2006 at 6:22 pm
I don’t think it’s your questions that are uncomfortable, but rather your co-workers’ answers.
August 1st, 2006 at 6:35 pm
Once again you’ve shed light on the Islamic world’s hypocracy and heartlessness. Muslims make no secret about trying to destroy Israel, and what does that involve? Genocide. If Muslims had the power that’s exactly what they would do, and they accuse Israel of being ruthless? Come on.
When Arab civilians are killed, Israelis don’t celebrate. It hurts them. But, when Arabs kill Israeli/jewish civilians they bring out the candy and crack open the champagne bottles. Jews have so much more compassion and understanding than the Muslim world.
August 1st, 2006 at 6:38 pm
If this situation was reversed, the world would be celebrating.
August 1st, 2006 at 6:43 pm
Sandy, standing ovation for you. I just hope arabs read this.
August 1st, 2006 at 6:56 pm
Also, this is another example of the indifference that Muslims have regarding their own people. Appromixately 100 civilians die everyday by “the insurgence” in Iraq. Do Muslims care? No, because Jews are not involved.
I would very much like to see Muslims wishing for eachother to succeed rather than wishing for Israel to fail.
I find it very disturbing and disgusting how Jews are de-humanized in the Muslim world. Indoctrinating children to hate Jews. Saying Jews are the sons of monkeys and pigs. Spreading lies that Jews drink the blood of non-jews. If this happened in Israel there would be world condemnation and I’m sure that muslims would throw on a few riots and burn many more flags.
August 1st, 2006 at 7:02 pm
I am a nazi sympathizer who loves to suck giant donkey cock. Spank me Hitler, spank me mein fuehrer!
August 1st, 2006 at 7:05 pm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A new comments policy
This has been a long time coming:
Given to the redicilous number of complaints that I get over the behaviour of some people in my comments section, I find myself forced to do something I really really hate and take the following position:
ANY ONE OF YOU WHO PEROSNALLY INSULTS/THREATHENS SOMEONE OR LEAVES RACIST COMMENTS OF ANY KIND WILL HAVE HIS COMMENT DELETED. THERE IS ONLY ONE PERSON WHO IS ALLOWED TO INSULT PEOPLE ON THIS BLOG AND IT’S ME, IN MY POSTS, AND THAT’S IT. I DON’T CARE WHO STARTED IT, OR IF THEY REALLY WERE IDIOTS/ASSHATS/SANDNIGGERS/ZIONISTPIGS/WHATEVER. THE COMMENT WILL GET DELETD! I AM ALL FOR FREE-SPEECH, BUT ENOUGH IS FUCKIN ENOUGH. CAPICE?
GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR………..
That will be all!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Apparently not everyone got the message ….
Really pathetic
August 1st, 2006 at 7:07 pm
#85 anon
yes there are major problems translating the meaning of words.
but what if ohlmert stood up and said something about honor and courage
this is an immoral war.
There is no honor in killing israelis or lebanese children
We want peace with lebanon.We have no fight with the lebanese. We simply ask to live in peace. I ask the hezbollah if it is more honorable to try to kill israelis and have their children killed by mistake or if it is more honorable to lay down your weapons and become a force for good and build your own country. And I ask the world this: We know that we cannot fight a war in which the combatants move their rockets into lebanese villages so that these villages suffer from our repsonse. Yet the world watches and talks. What is the honor of the world that allows the deaths of innocents.
so I ask them to use their dignity to improve Lebanon
Their is no honor in killing
i am not much of a speech writer. But words and education help to create wars. and Words can help stop them
August 1st, 2006 at 7:07 pm
Sandy,
You make an excellent case for Israeli humanism. Apparently, Mubarak’s ethos and hatred for Shia has osmosis-ed into your blood stream!
” if a Hezbollah rocket had attacked a building in Israel, killing 55 civillians, of which 30 were children” - would the arab world have been happy, you ask?
Probably, but only because it would have been the first retaliation to 60 years of barbarous deaths, invasions, depribations, kidnappings by the Israelis.
But how could it happen. The poor Hizboola rockets are hand made chinese firecrackers, whereas the Israel bombs are precision crafted laser-riding missiles aimed directly at civilian targets.
August 1st, 2006 at 7:13 pm
“Probably, but only because it would have been the first retaliation to 60 years of barbarous deaths, invasions, depribations, kidnappings by the Israelis.”
More canard.
“But how could it happen. The poor Hizboola rockets are hand made chinese firecrackers, whereas the Israel bombs are precision crafted laser-riding missiles aimed directly at civilian targets.”
Um - The rockets come from Iran via Syria. Only some of them are actually handmade. Even so - are you saying that it’s ok to kill civilians as long as the weapons are primative? This moral equivalency is really tired.
August 1st, 2006 at 7:16 pm
If It Was The Other Way Around
I’m afraid that the answer to these questions is quite obviously ‘yes’. This doesn’t - of course - mean that Israel - thus - has every (moral) right to kill as many Lebanese civilians as she can, but it does put things into perspective.
August 1st, 2006 at 7:37 pm
eee, get the idea?
August 1st, 2006 at 7:38 pm
Twosret Says:
August 1st, 2006 at 2:28 pm
I love it when SM asks his co-workers and it becomes a political position of all.
WOW that is a new research method indeed that I wasn’t aware of.
Actually, SM invited others to conduct a similar experiment and compare their data to his. Reading the original post, I don’t see any statement that based on talking to nine people in a single office, the entire Arab world’s political position has been defined; in fact the post closes with a series of questions raised by the responses he received.
August 1st, 2006 at 7:54 pm
Another great post, SM. I’ve been thinking about this topic for a couple weeks and you actually did a small survey which (albeit unscientifically) confirms what I figured.
Even when I disagree with your conclusions I admire your open-minded approach and willingness to consider the opposing view.
August 1st, 2006 at 8:16 pm
Out of pure interest: How does it come that intelligent, well educated people have not considered that point for quite a while? For the last few weeks, I have met many people who did not see that the the numbers of missile attacks equal. Many of them explicitely refuse to take note of it with the argument that ten times more people are dying in Lebanon, which were the only thing that matters. When asked what they would think if the Hezbollah missiles were more precise and would kill an equal number of civilians in Israel, they answer that I show an inhuman way of thinking / should have a look at the pictures / stop asking stupid questions / should not detract from the facts / stop being a sophister / only show how much I had already been infiltrated.
Of course, it is not the same like saying that they would appreciate the deads being on the other side. Nevertheless, the refusal of facts as well as the one to answer the question is an interesting phenomenon. I have not found a convincing explanation so far. (Most of the people I asked are secularised Europeans with academic background and without family or friends in the Middle East. As it was them who brought the conversation to the war, they seem to track the relevant news. The number of missiles has always been accessible in the media; not in the headlines, nevertheless present in side notes.) As they refuse to discuss the topic, I cannot get their answers. - Any hints?
August 1st, 2006 at 8:41 pm
you’re joking, right? if you or any other of israel’s neighbours had military superiority israel would have been laid waste a long time ago.
August 1st, 2006 at 8:43 pm
Well, I am not exactly anti-Muslim or anti-Arab, but I have found from my experiences as a student in Germany that it is not just the same but even worse when it comes to Muslims supporting the misfortune of others. I have seen umpteen examples of Muslims, be it Indian Muslims or Arab Muslims or any others, rejoicing at the misfortune of others but feeling victimized when they are at the receiving end..I have seen it starting from the 9/11 attacks till today…same shit…
August 1st, 2006 at 8:48 pm
So how many Egyptian, Arab, or Muslim posters on SM have conducted the research and what was the results?
Numbers please Uchuck the Tuchuck?
And who defined the Arab positions? were they a chain reaction to Israeli aggression or it is in their genes? When will Israelis have the audcity and be brave enough to stop the war and killing of innocents?
August 1st, 2006 at 8:58 pm
“Aha. It seems that you have never heard of the Soviet Union, have you? It wasn’t a democracy (not even close), it wasn’t capitalist (not even semi), and it did have the hugest army in the Army. Read more history books, do less hobby philosophising.”
This is a non point here. The old Soviet Union received much of its technology by stealing it from the west or from German scientists captured at the end of WWII. The Soviet military, while huge, was never any match for Western militaries in the theater of conventional warfare.
One of the main reasons for their collapse was that their rigid Marxist based economy couldn’t sustain the technology and huge military that they did manage to develop. Ronald Reagan’s Star Wars technology was threatening to eliminate the one area where they had achieved rough par with the West. That is to say in the arena of nuclear arms. Russia basically bankrupted themselves attempting to keep up with the US.
August 1st, 2006 at 9:09 pm
“Why do you quote some nutcase mullah, and generalise to Islam and the Arab-Israeli conflict?”
Alaa, this is probably because Islam seems to be just bursting at the seems with “nutcase mullahs”. As a matter of fact, most to the ones I see on TV and the Internet are full fledged barking at the moon, foaming at the mouth, knuckle dragging lunatics with about a third grade education at best.
Calling all of us infidels the offspring of apes and swine probbly doesn’t help either. And now that I think about it. Loosing the turbin, filthy beard and the piercing, “I hate your guts and want to slaughter your children” insane stare wouldn’t hurt the old image as well. Oh yeah. And for crying out loud guys, get a taylor. The filthy night shirt look went out around the elevnth century.
August 1st, 2006 at 9:17 pm
Twosret,
When you understand jihad, Dar-al-Harb, Dar-al-Islam, the imperial ambitions of Islam, and a thousand years of Islamic conquest maybe you’ll have a small clue.
August 1st, 2006 at 9:23 pm
A Really Uncomfortable Truth
Rantings of a Sandmonkey has an unfortunately revealing impromptu poll he conducted among some of his coworker (Sandmonkey is Egyptian for those who are unaware).
I had an interesting conversation yesterday with a co-worker, on the concept of…
August 1st, 2006 at 9:34 pm
Chip,
I understand that very well and I understand also how Israel was built on the same concept terrorism.
Thanks
August 1st, 2006 at 9:40 pm
SM,
This whole question of what happened in Qana, (Assuming that it actually happened. See http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/07/who-is-this-man.html ), is completly absurd.
If the bone heads in Iran could build a decent guided missile instead of the glorified bottle rockets that they have been providing the terrorists in Lebanon to date, this kind of slaughter would be a daily occurance in Israel right now.
It is a daily occurance in Iraq with Muslims slaughtering Muslims and not a peep out of the usual Islamic hand wringers. I guess it’s only degrading and humiliating when infidels kill Muslims and not when Muslims murder Muslims. So I just can’t help
a big WHAT’S UP WITH THAT?
August 1st, 2006 at 9:48 pm
Yeah Curt Qana never happened, Sabra and Shatila never happened and 9/11 never happened this is how insane you sound.
August 1st, 2006 at 9:49 pm
“I love it when SM asks his co-workers and it becomes a political position of all.
WOW that is a new research method indeed that I wasn’t aware of.
Ok guys keep going ”
Is this better for you:
http://www.pewtrusts.com/pdf/PRC_global_Terror_0705.pdf
Support for suicode bombings declined in lebanon between 2002 and 2005. In 2002 only 12% thought violence against civilians was never justified. Fully 33% in 2005 thought so. While I do feel bad for Lebanese civilians in this encounter, their readiness to sacrifice other civilians outs a little damper on it.
August 1st, 2006 at 10:02 pm
“The Pew Global Attitudes Project is co-chaired by former U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine K. Albright, currently Principal, the Albright Group LLC in Washington, DC, and former Senator John C. Danforth, currently Partner, Bryan Cave LLP in St. Louis, MO. The project is directed by Andrew Kohut, president of the Pew Research Center, a nonpartisan “fact tank” in Washington, DC, that provides information on the issues, attitudes and trends shaping America and the world. The project is principally funded by The Pew Charitable Trusts. The William and Flora Hewlett Foundation provided a supplemental grant for the 2002 survey.”
August 1st, 2006 at 11:12 pm
“and 9/11 never happened this is how insane you sound”
Here’s another one for you. Muslims overwhelmingly think that Arabs did not perpetrate 9/11. http://www.pewtrusts.com/pdf/PGAP_Muslim_0606.pdf Is there any hope when this is the level of truth in these societies?
August 1st, 2006 at 11:21 pm
““The Pew Global Attitudes Project is co-chaired by former U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine K. Albright, currently Principal, the Albright Group LLC in Washington, DC, and former Senator John C. Danforth, currently Partner, Bryan Cave LLP in St. Louis, MO. The project is directed by Andrew Kohut, president of the Pew Research Center, a nonpartisan “fact tank” in Washington, DC, that provides information on the issues, attitudes and trends shaping America and the world. The project is principally funded by The Pew Charitable Trusts. The William and Flora Hewlett Foundation provided a supplemental grant for the 2002 survey.””
The Pew Trusts is known as a liberal organization. Personally knowing the former president of the organization, my guess is that if the number are biased then they are biased to make Arabs look more moderate. I don’t mean this as a diabtribe. I’m all for forgetting our past and working together for a better future, I just can’t stand the outlook that it’s the Israelis who are aiming for civilians when that’s so far from the truth.
August 1st, 2006 at 11:31 pm
some thoughts:
1. ask any israeli-arab if they would rather live any place besides in israel, and they will say no….. their life is not perfect, but they vote, they enjoy a democratic voice in parliament, can travel anywhere, can say anything, can go to top universities, can practice their religion with 100% protection, and the list goes on and on….. try saying that about other countries in the ME
2. can u imagine if there was a great holy jewish synagouge with tremendous historic significance located in syria, or iran, or even egypt orjordan? how long would it last before it would be destroyed? (remember what the jordanians did to all the synagouges in the old city of jerusalem in 1948-1967? remember the tomb of joseph? lasted ten hours after the palestenians were given back the area!)
israel on the otrher hand reunites the old city in 1967, and then proceeds to protect the al aqsa mosque with israeli soldeirs, so that any moslem can go there to pray…..the holy sepuchre? anyone can now go there, in complete safety and protection………… moral equivalency? i think not
August 1st, 2006 at 11:33 pm
> Personally knowing the former president of the organization, my guess
> is that if the number are biased then they are biased to make Arabs
> look more moderate.
Zionism transforms the gentiles into idiots.
Secondary effect: conspiracitis.
August 1st, 2006 at 11:40 pm
“Zionism transforms the gentiles into idiots.
Secondary effect: conspiracitis.”
These ‘conspiracitis’ that you speak of refer to muslims thinking that it wasn’t arabs who flew the planes into the world trade centers? Or that Jews drink gentile blood, an idea aired in arab countries on state television? My point was not to say that the Pew study was biased, it was only to counter Twosret’s idea that it was biased to make Muslims look worse. Don’t worry — you still keep the conspiracy crown by a longshot.
August 1st, 2006 at 11:41 pm
Sandy, here’s your problem: Your critique of Israeli policy is being drowned out by the far louder and more numerous Israel-bashers, who hate Israel regardless of what they do.
They’re crying “Wolf! Wolf!” and when you come along and say “There’s a wolf coming. For real this time.” nobody’s taking anything anti-Israel seriously anymore.
August 1st, 2006 at 11:45 pm
OOhh, here’s a good one. Did you know the Jews have a council running the world? Learn all about the Protocols of the Elders of Zion in Arab schools and television: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion#Middle_East
August 2nd, 2006 at 12:12 am
“1. ask any israeli-arab if they would rather live any place besides in israel, and they will say no….”
This is my official first laugh since the war on Lebanon started. You are one heck of ben zona indeed for suggesting this.
August 2nd, 2006 at 1:11 am
I’ve been trying to point this out for years now. What would happen if the shoe was one the other foot? What would Hezbollah do if they had the weapons the IDF has and were being bothered by a Jewish terrorist militia on their borders? What methods would they use? You only have to look at the Janjaweed, the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps and their wholesale murders, the Anfal campaign against the Kurds, the genocide of the Armenians and the expulsion of the Greeks…I could go on and on but why bother? It’s obvious they would carry out a mass murder of Jews and the UN would shrug the same way they shrug at Rwanda and Darfur. They only care if a muslim is killed by an Israeli, the rest of the time no one gives a damn. And then the Arabs and other Muslims have the nerve to ask: Why do you support the Israelis? Why don’t you give us the same weapons you give to them? WTF!
August 2nd, 2006 at 1:24 am
Also I forgot, ask yourselves this question: If we let Saddam out of his cage and told him he had command of the IDF, then further told him he could have pardon and Iraq returned to him, and all he had to do was utterly destroy Hezbollah. How long would it take him? Two or three weeks? Do you think he’d concern himself over civilian deaths? Do you think he’d try to distinguish between HA and anybody else? Would he send troops in to fight in Bint Jbail house to house, thereby reducing civilian casualties but getting his own soldiers killed? Or would he use long range guns and turn the ‘capital of the resistance’ to dust?
So let’s skip the crap about how IDF can’t beat HA and how HA drove the IDF out, and the IDF is totally ruthless, without mercy, all that crap. Sorry to post twice SM.
August 2nd, 2006 at 1:37 am
Twosret asked: :So how many Egyptian, Arab, or Muslim posters on SM have conducted the research and what was the results?
Numbers please Uchuck the Tuchuck?”
My dear Twosret, I haven’t the faintest idea. I live in rural Kentucky, and Egyptian, Arab, and Muslim co-workers are rather thin on the ground here. The point I was trying to make is that I thought you were jumping the gun a bit by accusing SM of pretending to extrapolate the “political position of all” from an informal office survey when he clearly wasn’t.
And who defined the Arab positions? were they a chain reaction to Israeli aggression or it is in their genes? When will Israelis have the audcity and be brave enough to stop the war and killing of innocents?
Good questions all…and the Arab (Egyptian) positions reported in the initial post were pretty much defined by the Arabs that uttered them in response to the question. While we’re in the rhetorical vein…nah, I won’t ask when Hezbollah will be brave enough to stop lobbing rockets and killing innocents; that would be repeating the point of the original post.
August 2nd, 2006 at 1:43 am
This is my official first laugh since the war on Lebanon started. You are one heck of ben zona indeed for suggesting this.
where would they want to live? jordan? iran? pick a place, and you’ll see an unfortunate history (20th century) of civil right violations, supression of freedom of speech and thought, lack of economic and social growth, lack of intellectual pursuit, etc…..and a culture of BLAME.
But it is not due to stupidity on the part of the leaders - it is clearly an orchestrated phenomenon. The islamic leaders realize that as soon as their people stop hating israel and the west, they will relaize who their true enemies are - their leaders, who have more oil and millions than can be imagined, yet give the people nothing but shame and disgrace. Look at Arafat - keeps 20billion in a swiss bank, and blames israel and the west for his peoples condition. Despite this, he is still their hero….
wake up lebanon, wake up palestenians, wake up iraqis - your corrupt leaders and your fundementalist cousins are destroying your very being. Islam was once a great beautiful religion and people. look at it now.
August 2nd, 2006 at 1:44 am
sorry - forgot the quotation marks:
“This is my official first laugh since the war on Lebanon started. You are one heck of ben zona indeed for suggesting this.”
where would they want to live? jordan? iran? pick a place, and you’ll see an unfortunate history (20th century) of civil right violations, supression of freedom of speech and thought, lack of economic and social growth, lack of intellectual pursuit, etc…..and a culture of BLAME.
But it is not due to stupidity on the part of the leaders - it is clearly an orchestrated phenomenon. The islamic leaders realize that as soon as their people stop hating israel and the west, they will relaize who their true enemies are - their leaders, who have more oil and millions than can be imagined, yet give the people nothing but shame and disgrace. Look at Arafat - keeps 20billion in a swiss bank, and blames israel and the west for his peoples condition. Despite this, he is still their hero….
wake up lebanon, wake up palestenians, wake up iraqis - your corrupt leaders and your fundementalist cousins are destroying your very being. Islam was once a great beautiful religion and people. look at it now.
August 2nd, 2006 at 2:00 am
sure the corrupt arab leaders are the ones who are invading Palestine and bombing Lebanon .
August 2nd, 2006 at 2:27 am
No Twosret, but they are invading and bombing Israel (or supporting those that are).
And this isn’t just about Lebanon, the COUNTRY, who started this war to begin with. More than 1 million Israelis are out of their homes trying to escape the missiles that are being launched with the sole purpose of killing Jewish civillians.
August 2nd, 2006 at 2:45 am
Karen, I have pointed out here and other places a few times that most arabs don’t give a rats hind quarters if jews are killed. But kill one of them, and …
When they start to value our lives as much as their own, then we can start building something that looks like peace.
We have a very long wait for that.
August 2nd, 2006 at 2:53 am
Twosret,
You must be in college. In the real world, ethics is not a simple game where you make simplistic arguments to equalize both sides.
Here, let me make it easy for you. We’re all made of atoms, so everything is equal. Now you can spend your valuable time on bong hits.
August 2nd, 2006 at 2:59 am
I wouldn’t say they don’t care. In fact killing Jews is their reason for being. And if they die fighting the Jews they are happy because now they are martyrs.
How do you make peace with people like that? People who value death more than life. People who only want to see you dead. Well, you don’t. G-d knows that the Israelis have tried. But now we know that there won’t be peace. The Arabs/Muslims don’t want peace with us and they (most) don’t want us on this planet. Well tough shit!! That attitude has been around as long as there has been Jews and we are still here and we will be here until the end of time
August 2nd, 2006 at 3:07 am
Karen,
I suppose if Hizbollah lays seige to a kindergarten in Tel Aviv, the correct response is to shell it?
August 2nd, 2006 at 3:42 am
Serious question: is there any evidence that Israel has dedicated itself to the complete conquest and annihilation of its neighbors?
Any at all.
Thanks in advance.
August 2nd, 2006 at 3:46 am
(sarcasm)
gee, I can’t wait ’till Iran has nukes, then the Arabs and Jews can have the (proportionate) war Europe demands!
August 2nd, 2006 at 3:55 am
Is there any Muslim country that has Jews in their government? any Muslim country that has Jews in their military? is there any Muslim country that extends any rights to Jews at all? just curious.
is there any country where Islam is spreading by peaceful evangelism?
seems like all the area’s we hear of it’s thru war and genocide, is this just poor reporting?
I wonder if a Jew was to put this question to his average white collar cohorts the same way SM did to his, would the results be the same?
August 2nd, 2006 at 4:00 am
Just a small correction - Hezbollah missiles are not bad at all. As a matter of fact, they are as good or better for slautering civilians then what IDF use. Hezb use “GRAD” SB-26, an upgraded version of “Katjusha” SB-13, and a couple of thousands of Katjushas broke German lines in Kursk and Stalingrad battles. We are talking about entrenched troops, not civilians on the way to pick up some milk.
The reason civilian casualties on Israeli side are relatively low is because 1: their Government runs early warning system and built shelters for people - Hezb only built shelters for missiles., and 2) IAF does not allow Hezb to make a second shot. If they could fire one, receive a correction from their agent in Israel, then correct and fire all 48 of SB-26 GRAD from a single launcher, they would eliminate _everything_ in 6000sq/m, that would be easily a couple of high-rises with everyone inside, hundreds of people. The only reason that doesn’t happen is because 2 min after the first shot the launcher get blown to pieces. The difference is not in weapons, but in Governments.
So let me make it straight - do Arabs hate Israelis because Israeli Government cares about their people? Do they hate Jews so bad they want them all dead, only because Jews do not allow their government to abuse them? Possibly that’s why your Government wants you to hate Jews, so they can rob you, mistreat you, rape you, and you forgive everything as soon as some Jewish civilians get killed? May I say - as long as you hate Israelis, you will have the kind of government you have, or worse.
August 2nd, 2006 at 4:13 am
Jewz & Israelis explanation pleeeeeeeeease??
http://sudanesethinker.blogspot.com/2006/08/explanation-pleeease.html
August 2nd, 2006 at 4:22 am
Pardon another history lesson here, but let us consider the former Empire of Japan.
They were a pack of head-chopping theocrats, who glorified death in battle as the highest possible aspiration of a Japanese man. Having been utterly defeated and re-formed by the United States, Japan today is a country where peace and prosperity prevail and the homicidal nutcases are limited to the occasional poison gas attack in the subway, rather than running the country.
The reasons they lost the war are many, but certainly among them was this stupid idea of suicide as a path to honor. As George Patton said, nobody ever won a war by dying for his country. Wars are won by making the poor son of a bitch on the other side die for HIS country.
The truth of the matter is, the best way to reduce the body count in the middle east is probably to have another empire take over and get a lid on the theocrats, the way that the Turks and the Brits did.
Meanwhile, every Arab had better hope that Israel is never defeated, because if the Jews all left the middle east, the theocrats would get down to the real business of settling the Shi’a/Sunni scism once and for all by killing everybody in sight. Fifty dead in Lebanon? Try tens of millions of men, women, and children who have the misfortune to belong to the wrong mosque for their neighborhood.
-jcr
August 2nd, 2006 at 4:45 am
Drima: Posted on your blog. It is Tish B’av. One of the many sad days on the Jewish calendar. Commemerating the destruction of the first and second temples at the place where the only intact visible remenant apart from the temple mount itself, is the western wall of the temple. The wailing wall.
This group are not extremists, they don’t go around kidnapping, killing, blowing things up. They would like to see the mount cleared for the third temple.
Sadly, the arab press likes to label any jew who wants to visit the temple mount as an extremist.
August 2nd, 2006 at 4:53 am
Japan surrendered when the carnage became horrific. Germany collapsed for many reasons, but the destruction of Dresden and other places, and the carnage was hellacious.
These battles are nothing in comparison. They used sledge hammers, we use laproscopic surgery.
There was never any honor in what Japan did, as there is no honor in what hezbullah does. Japan at least had the balls to directly face their attackers, and not hide behind the geisha’s kimono.
I don’t seem to remember the world leaping to condemn Dresden, Hiroshima, …
The allies were faced with a choice between evils. They chose the lesser of them.
Israel now faces that choice. I get the sense that Olmert/Peretz finally… finally get it.
August 2nd, 2006 at 5:14 am
Bless you Sam. You’ve gone right to the heart of it.
In the cataclysmic times ahead, remember that some of us will be praying for your safely.
August 2nd, 2006 at 5:14 am
A Powerful Litmus Test
Egyptian blogger Sandmonkey relates an interesting conversation he had with some work colleagues (hat tip: LGF): I had an interesting conversation yesterday with a co-worker, on the concept of the disporportinate Israeli attacks on Lebanon compared to …
August 2nd, 2006 at 5:17 am
#33 Can you expand on your point please. I don’t quite understand what you are getting at.
August 2nd, 2006 at 5:18 am
Make that # 133.
August 2nd, 2006 at 6:58 am
[...] Lets start with an interesting look at the viewpoints of an admittedly small sampling of the Egyptian population. Sandmonkey admits that this is not a big enough sampling to represent an accurate poll but the results are interesting nonetheless. Rantings of a Sandmonkey Some slightly uncomfortable questions Impressed by this point of view that I haven’t considerd before, I asked him what he would’ve thought, if a Hezbollah rocket had attacked a building in Israel, killing 55 civillians, of which 30 were children. He responded immeidtely “I would’ve thought it was great! A7san!”. [...]
August 2nd, 2006 at 7:21 am
The problem is quite simple. Arabs are racist. Muslims are religious bigots. This is the NATURAL state of humans. We need to point to something about ourselves in order to get protection. They assume that we are also racists and religious bigots like them. They assume that there is a TRIBAL CLASH. What they don’t realise is that we are anti-racists and anti-religious bigots and that they can easily join our tribe as equals.
The solution to all our problems is at http://www.moatazilla.org
August 2nd, 2006 at 7:43 am
I think many are disgusted at Israel for killing of children in Qana.
But really, do you guys really think that IDF would have fired that missile if it knew there were kids in it?
All I know is Israel has the military capabilities that few can match in the ME. If it really wanted to kill civilians, the numbers would be in hundreds of thousand to say the least.
Israel has to defend itself. Today it may be two soldier kidnapped. If nothing is done, HB will get bolder and bolder. What would happened then? More kidnappings and death to the Israelis. Israel has to retaliate and HB knows this very well. The childrens’ deaths are exactly what HB is hoping for. For certain, funds will keep coming, recruits keep lining up at their doorstep and television around the world keep airing their propaganda. What more could they ask for?
This is a victory for HB whether u like it or not and the world should despair at how the situation is being manipulated by a group thirsting for blood.
This has nothing to do with the religions. Just a bunch of criminals taking advantage of Israel’s insecurity and predictability in their response.
Sad to see millions and millions of Muslim misled into believing that this has anything to do with Islam.
August 2nd, 2006 at 8:38 am
What about those fighters who die in war? Is it wrong to feel sorry for them?
Another slightly uncomfotable question which can be applied on both side, read:
http://thearabobserver.blogspot.com/2006/08/poor-fighters-another-slightly_01.html
August 2nd, 2006 at 9:11 am
If muslims cannot live in peace with jews, how can we expect them to live inpeace with christians, hindus, buddhists, nonbelievers and other people in general?
All the evidence points in the direction of muslim intolerance towards non - muslims.
We remember the destruction of centuries old buddhist statues in afghanistan, the 5000 or more muslim terror bombings since 9/11.
We non-muslims have a deep distrust of the islam.
Clearly the koran is inspiring these terror acts.
Please let me qoute from Faith Freedom
About
Faith Freedom International
Islamic terrorism is inspired by Islamic teachings. We can never get rid of Islamic terrorism unless we defeat the ideology behind it and that is Islam itself. Islam induces hate backed by lies. Muhammad was a terrorist by his own admission. All Muslims, to the extent that they follow him, are terrorists. Those Muslims who are not terrorists are ignorant of Islam and are not good Muslims. Fortunately they are the majority. We need to rescue them. If you are a good human being, you are not a Muslim. Read this site and if you can’t prove me wrong, which you certainly can’t, leave this deceitful cult of hate and terror and join mankind. Don’t be part of the Umma. Umma is fascism. It is divisive. It induces the hatred of others. Be part of humanity instead. Your ignorance is not an excuse. Pull your head out of the sand and face the truth, like we did.
Faith Freedom International is a grassroots worldwide movement of ex-Muslims and all those who are concerned about the rise of the Islamic threat. We want to bring humanity together, not by introducing yet another doctrine, which always ends up dividing mankind more, but by eliminating the doctrines that divide us. We want to abolish this evil ‘Muslim vs. Kafir” dichotomy. Mankind is one family. Don’t let narcissist men like Hitler and Muhammad sunder us with their big lies. Don’t become the victim of the “divide and rule” policy of a psychopath.
Faith Freedom stands for freedom of faith. We are against Hate, not Faith. We revere human rights not human beliefs. We endeavor to be factually correct, not politically correct.
Do your part! Let this message out. Let us eradicate Islam and bring mankind together - the way God intended. Islam is the cancer of humanity. We can get rid of it. There is nothing we humans can’t do. Mountains move aside to make way for those who are determined.
August 2nd, 2006 at 9:31 am
alaa
you don’t have time to look into something on which your whole life and eternity is based…..
please cite your reference for the loving
here is another survey of a different kind. We like context. you say it doesn’t matter if you pick up on loads of violent verses in the Qu’ran.
Okay here’s a survey for everyone to do
Count up how many verses in the Qu’ran talk about peace. So how many did you find?
August 2nd, 2006 at 10:21 am
Clear,
I think you’ll find that Alaa does not consider himself a Muslim - see comment # 72.
Surely you can respect that without calling him to task on the contents of a book he doesn’t believe in?
August 2nd, 2006 at 10:44 am
I am sorry i must have missed that one in amongst the 154 posts for this.
but the survey is for anyone to do (read post!).
Regardless of religion, alaa’s viewpoint is that it is taking it out of context just to talk about all the verses which incite muslims to carry out acts of violence against non-muslims. So lets look at all the verses that command muslims to be peaceful.
anyone?
August 2nd, 2006 at 11:02 am
To paraphrase an old Jewish lady,
the Arbas will begin to have peace and prosperity when they start loving their children more than they hate the Jews.
August 2nd, 2006 at 11:08 am
I will continue to support the targetting of terrorists but not to consider the killing of civilians cause for celebration. Nevertheless I acknowledge this is legitimate warfare and have to accept that civilians will be killed as long as Israel is provoked by die-hards. I hope that eventually Sam’s view on the matter becomes widespread and the members of parties such as Hizbollah recognise that if they down their weapons so will Israel, and I hope the world recognises that the media coverage does distort the picture of what is happening by implying that the hatred and enmity comes in equal measures from Israel and the enemies of Israel, when in fact Israel responds pragmatically and knowingly to a continued, real and manifest threat.
August 2nd, 2006 at 11:33 am
I must say I am an Israeli and I strongly support the Israeli forces’ attacks on Hizbullah commanders and the attempt to destroy this deadly organization, deadly for both Lebanon and Israel if not for the whole region
still
I am a father to a 2 year old child, and when I saw the pictures of these dead children I immediatly thought of my child and felt very bad about what happend there (although not necessarily as a direct result of the bombing). I can also say I almost started crying when looking at these little helpless children dead, but I assume people might think this is just to make things sound better for the readers of this response. I isn’t.
I am not happy in any way for any innocent person getting killed because of a war, but you all out there around the world must understand that IT IS A WAR! and civilian casualties is an integral part of every war, especially when these people are INTENTIOANLLY left in targetted places as a HUMAN SHIELD.
Don’t think about how come is it that Israeli bombings kill little children. The Israeli army throws from the air pamplets that warn people of all south Lebanon from the war and calls them to leave their homes due to the danger. Think about the loathed terrorists that knew they haeve ammunition in this building and still kept these children in the building knowing what could happen to them. THIS IS NOT ONLY AGAINST THE INTERNATIONAL LAW TO FIRE FROM WITHIN CIVIL-POPULATION, THIS IS INHUMAN!
I Hope all this will end soon…
August 2nd, 2006 at 12:52 pm
I am a father to a 2 year old child, and when I saw the pictures of these dead children I immediatly thought of my child
Same here. Now only if the arab fathers thought that when looking at pictures of dead israeli kids … these wars might be less frequent.
August 2nd, 2006 at 3:11 pm
I believe that there is a fundamental point that has been missed by most of the people posting here.
The point here is that Israel tried to have peace. They want to have peace. You cannot however, have peace when there is so much deep seeded hatred on the part of many arab neighbors. What happened after Israel left the Gaza Strip? Israel displaced its own citizens to accomplish the abandonment of Gaza. What did the Palestinians do? They elected Hamas, an organization that was created for the sole purpose of destroying Israel and they began launching Kassam rockets at cities like Sderot. Did they have targets? No, they launch randomly and hope for (in their minds) the most carnage that can be inflicted.
What happened after Israel left Lebanon? Hizbullah began arming itself as best as it could to continue attacking Israel. They attacked first in this case. You can say that Israel is too aggressive in their attacks however, what army exists today that tries to warn residents prior to attacking? It almost defeats the purpose of attacking since those pamphlets warn Hizbullah as well. Hizbullah also exists for one reason, the destruction of Israel.
I wholeheartedly believe that if Israel put down their weapons today and stopped fighting altogether, then they would be overrun by the enemies that exist on their borders and I believe that the killings that would ensue would be indiscriminate as well.
I believe that what happened in Qana was tragic. However, I also believed that the tragedy could have been prevented. These civilians knew that Hizbullah was firing near their buildings. There is proof in the form of video evidence that rockets are being fired into Israel from civilian areas. That makes the residents in those areas unwilling combatants and therefore they unfortunately can be targeted. It is stated in the Geneva Convention:
Article 28 of the 4th Geneva Convention
“If a location is a legitimate military objective, it does not cease to
be one because civilians are in the vicinity.”
All in all, I wish for peace and I wish that this conflict would end as soon as possible. I also hope that Israel’s neighbors can one day accept that Israel has a right to exist without the threat of constantly being attacked.
August 2nd, 2006 at 3:31 pm
“Valerie Says:
August 1st, 2006 at 4:49 pm
Here’s a proposal settle the current conflict, from someone in a positon to know.
http://www.tayyar.org/tayyar/articles.php?article_id=16171&type=GMA ”
Any “proposed settlement” that amounts to Israel giving up the Shebaa Farms under fire and includes the release of Samir Kuntar - a man who before Israel was in Lebanon invaded Israel and killed a four year old girl by bashing her skull in with a rifle (and for his efforts was recently named an “honorary palestinian” - go figure: all you need to do to be a palestinian is kill Israeli civillians) - is not worth the paper it’s written on. And that says even more when it is written on a paperless medium such as the net.
A proposed settlement with half a chance of being acceptable to all sides can be found at http://www.rallyingthebase.blogspot.com
August 2nd, 2006 at 4:35 pm
There is much in these comments to both agree and disagree with, but Alaa’s comment “I think the biggest mistake the Palestinians made was to ask for their own state… they should’ve asked for equal rights in Israel and started a non-violent revolution…” is absolutely correct. Had they realized, early on, that the Zionist governments of Israel were more like the British Raj in India than the German administration of conquered Europe, a Gandhi-like appeal to the Jewish cultural values of tolerance, justice and fair-play would have resolved the tensions between your peoples much more satisfactorily than the path of armed confrontation, quickly devolved into nihilistic violence and terrorism.
Whether one thinks that moving Jews to Israel/Palestine represents their fabled “return”, or an alien “colonization”, or just a “dumping” of Europe’s most unwanted minority amongst other peoples of little value to the outside world, everyone should recognize that, except for a tiny minority of marginalized zealots, most Israelis have a Judeo-Christian or “Western Enlightenment” sense of right and wrong. When they aren’t being indiscriminately assaulted by their neighbors - and even, to some degree, when they are - most Jews retain a sense of justice and tend to agonize over inflicting pain and death on “innocents”, even as an unavoidable consequence of their own self-defense. They do not wish to conquer and dominate, much less kill remorselessly, just for the evil pleasure of it… except in their enemies’ propaganda.
If today’s so-called Palestinians, or Arabs descended from natives of old Palestine, had taken the approach of Gandhi, or even followed the enlightened pragmatism of Sadat, they would have long ago seen their conflict favorably resolved. A new concept of Israel would have evolved, with the ever-growing protection and democratic participation of all peoples living in the territory - much like in the USA. Now, alas, it is probably too late. The Jews of Israel have no reason to risk anything more, or compromise their physical security further, for the empty promises of Arab leaders. Most are not blind. They have seen the anti-Israel and blatantly anti-Jewish propaganda in Arab media, noted the semi-democratic choices of radicalized Arab populations after generations of vile indoctrination in Arab-run schools. Their children, in and out of uniform, have been attacked, murdered and kidnapped repeatedly, on their own territory, regardless of whatever political or territorial concessions they’ve made. Now, the application of their superior force and the horrors of war are all that remain… and they, still the stronger power, will survive…
August 2nd, 2006 at 7:16 pm
[...] This Sandmonkey poses some really great and insightful questions to people of all ethnic backgrounds. Impressed by this point of view that I haven’t considerd before, I asked him what he would’ve thought, if a Hezbollah rocket had attacked a building in Israel, killing 55 civillians, of which 30 were children. He responded immeidtely “I would’ve thought it was great! A7san!”. [...]
August 2nd, 2006 at 7:34 pm
[...] This could have been an occasion to shame Hizbullah publicly, globally, for its atrocious behavior, its sick and destructive attitude towards the life of its own people, its transparent and dishonest manipulation of the public, and its bloody betrayal of the very people it claims to represent. All the voices of Jihad – especially the most bloodthirsty – would be humiliated before the eyes of the world. All the voices of moderation and humanity in the Arab world would have found a public platform from which to address the Arab world and deliver a well-deserved rebuke for their childish egocentrism and unfairness. The temperature of global jihad warming might have dropped by as many as 3 degrees. The initiative could have passed (even briefly) to all those in the Arab world who see the terrifying dangers of global Jihad and realize this is not a beast we want to feed, who show enough constructive realism to resist suicidal honor. [...]
August 2nd, 2006 at 8:18 pm
#133
“Chui Says:
August 2nd, 2006 at 3:07 am
Karen,
I suppose if Hizbollah lays seige to a kindergarten in Tel Aviv, the correct response is to shell it? ”
A very interesting question.
I proceed from the assumption that the basis of a state is mutual protection. That is, the reason legitimate, consensual states arose in the first place was principally or substantially for the sake of the greater ability to protect one’s person, family, and possessions from external threats.
In that case, it’s not only normal, but ethical for a state to place a higher value on the lives of its citizens than it places on the lives of foreigners. So I imagine that the ethical impact of shelling a kindergargten would substantially depend on who’s children were inside it.
This is not a universalizable ethical theory - i.e. your protecting your own does not motivate me to protect your own. But that doesn’t make it invalid.
Now, if two groups have an understanding - even an informal, unspoken understanding - that they will not shell one another’s kindergartens, then each side has a self-interested motivation to perpetuate that agreement, and will very possibly refrain from shelling the “enemy” kindergarten, but that is strictly in the interest of securing the same protection for your own.
In the case of Israel and HA, clearly Israel doesn’t believe that their restraint will engender any restraint on the part of HA. It’s entirely possible that the opposite is true as well.
Bottom line: I hope that each side would refrain from attacking their own kindergarten. It would certainly be nice if each side refrained from attacking one another’s kindergartens, but that would require a lot more trust than exists between them right now. And of course, it would be particularly nice if each side refrained from placing their own kindergarten at risk.
August 3rd, 2006 at 4:42 am
Sounds about right considering the group your asking.
Never hear much anguish from Arabs about the “occupation” of Berber lands nor any cries for an independant Kurdistan. Or hell much other than denouncing Israel and Jews in general. Okay some “Death to America” chants as well.
August 3rd, 2006 at 10:18 am
#151 Clear said:
>Okay here’s a survey for everyone to do
>Count up how many verses in the Qu’ran talk about peace. So how many did you find?
The problem is the peaceful verses are *abrogated* - superceded by subsequently revealed bloody verses. This principle is accepted by all major schools of islamic jurisprudence. Sadly for the world, the most evil verses were revealed toward the end of the chronology of Muhammad.
Seperately, a limited but interesting quantitative koran content analysis can be found here:
http://www.amberpawlik.com/IslamonTrial.html
August 3rd, 2006 at 11:52 am
[...] In case you’ve lost hope for ever seeing any Muslims being fair with regard to Israel, if you haven’t been to Sandmonkey’s or Big Pharaoh’s blogs lately, GO. Catch up–and not just in the two linked posts. You may not agree with everything they say (I don’t, but hey, do you agree with everything I say either?), but you won’t find them cheering on terrorists or wishing for Israel’s destruction. Thank you, Sandmonkey and BP. Tags: Lebanon, Hezbollah, Hizballah, Egypt [...]
August 3rd, 2006 at 4:55 pm
Figured I would post this.
So where are the headlines screaming about the rocket fire?
Where is the condemnation of the obvious targeting of civilians?
Where are the riots in the capitals, and mourners in the streets?
Where are the seething masses on the “street”?
Well, why would there be?
These are Israelis whom were killed by terrorist rockets. Why should the arab world do anything?
There is a word to describe the “peace activists”, the UN, and those who scream loudly at (arab) deaths.
Hypocracy.
August 3rd, 2006 at 6:56 pm
surfer #165
“The problem is the peaceful verses are *abrogated* - superceded by subsequently revealed bloody verses.”
thankyou for that response. A simpler response would have been- No
August 4th, 2006 at 6:36 pm
why is it that arabs call for the destruction of the state of israel, just like in 1948, 1967, and 1973………..while the jews of israel just call to be left alone.
August 5th, 2006 at 11:13 am
listen, racist people.
the palestinian-israeli conflict isn’t about islam, or judaism. it’s about colonialism and land and all what wars are usually about. it’s just convenient to the powers that be to chracterize it as a clash of civilization and religions, including sandmonkey, who, quite simply, despises arabs as people.
as for his “survey” - after so, so many dead, who wouldn’t want revenge? it’s only ok for israelis to want revenge, right? because they’re the only human beings in the world and everything they do is “justifiable” right? if they are no beneficient, so sensitive, so careful, why have so many civilians died over the years? and if, according to them, there are no lebanese civilians, then there are cetainly no civilians in israel, what with universal military service.
whatever…you people are a lost cause. stick to your ignorance and racism and fox news. read only the things you agree with. go on. maintain the myth of the monolithic enemy. just don’t expect the people who are actually dying by the droves to think it’s their fault.
August 5th, 2006 at 2:23 pm
Me Again…
Forsoothsayer…ThanK you for being a voice of sanity…
I am hoping Anon and Kranky are regulars and will see this…
I think about three days ago we had a bit of a spat and I disappeared (mainly because I have a job, a wife and PC games to attend too…but anyway.
I didn’t respond to two irritating comments from you guys…and I was worried you thought I didn’t have a response.
One was something about Independent Palestine being the only party that doesn’t advocate suicide bombings and the destruction of Israel…etc..and therefore only 2.7% of Palestinians voted right.
Forget the fact that Hammas played down violence completely in their campaign and focused on reform and corruption. And that Fattah are the Oslo guys that uncle Sam wanted to win (abu mazen…). what about The Third way–Hannan Ashrawi and Salam Fayyad. What about the Left Coalition with The Greens, The communists and the PFLP?
I think the Palestinian cause calls for Non-violent resistance because of strategic reasons, but there are — in my mind– no moral or legal issues with violent resistance as long as it doesn’t target civilians. What is the things about “so-called Palestinians” supposed to mean?
Kranky Kranky, I recall you saying something about it all being peachy and dandy if only Palestinians put their arms down…uh, sorry to burst your pink bubble, but don’t you remember the Oslo years? 1993-2000…there was supposed to be mostly peace but all what the Palestinians got was bigger and more settlements on their land, by-pass roads so that the settlers can drive to Israel without having to see any Palestinians (also built on land confiscated from the Palestinians). Also, the Israeli closure of Gaza and the west bank became worse and worse despite “peace” and by 1998 the Palestinian economy had collapsed and was only kept going by foreign aid.
Israel and the foreign donors where happy to subsidise PA corruption as long as the played ball and kept the mutant Oslo accords alive, but when Oslo died in 2000 everyone suddenly discovered that the PA had been corrupt.
Lets go back further in the past…between 1967 and 1987…that’s 20 years when the Palestinians living in WB&Gaza did nothing, didn’t even protest the Israeli occupation…did they get anything? Israel made the Palestinian economy completely dependant on it because it had no intention of ever withdrawing and then when what you guys call the “Demographic Threat” became apparent–Israel just wanted to get rid or the responsibility for Palestinians without giving up any control, land or resources…this is exactly what they succeded in doing in Gaza-which is still dependant on Israel for labour and trade with the outside world.
You see…I think Israel sees it as a zero-sum game (surprising, since Mr. game-theory-nobel-prize is an Israeli and a right-winger). So, i guess they think if the Palis are worse-off Israel is automatically better-off or something.
Remeber Ra’anan Gissin? “peace will come when the Palestinians become Fins”…well, why is Israel trying to turn the Palestinians into Afghanis (with all due respect to the Afghanis)? why is it trying so hard to make them poorer, more miserable, and less developed? maybe the plan is for them to gradually emigrate? not at all to get peace –just to get all the land they can get…
There are dozens of references to Arab education and text books being evil, inflammatory, teaching Arab superiority…etc…I really don’t know were all this comes from? have any of the people saying it ever been to an Arab school or read and Arab texbook? I am not saying they’re balanced or good or well written…But they certainly don’t tell you to kill people (I was schooled in 3 Arab countries…it was boring, it had silly Jordanian/Palestinian/Emirati propaganda in the “social studies” textbook) but we mainly studied sciences , maths, English and Arabic. There were occasional history/Islamic Studies/social sciences but it was all pretty normal (heck, the only history course I did in an Arab country was about the History of Europe 1800-1917). I never went to any sort of religious school because they didn’t exist in any of these countries (you know, the Taliban Madrassah type of thing…)
Just tell me where you get this idea from?
Well, anyway…why do I bother…it’s all hopeless…you’re all happy with your stereotypes and misconceptions…
Try watching arabic pop, and you’ll change your idea of what Arabs are like…
have to go back to work now (yes! I have to work this weekend)
August 6th, 2006 at 12:06 am
“…it’s just convenient to the powers that be to chracterize it as a clash of civilization and religions, including sandmonkey, who, quite simply, despises arabs as people.”
I can’t speak for SM but I can tell you that there isn’t an American I know that want’s even one square inch of the Middle East. I’m sorry to say that if it wasn’t for the oil, most people here wouldn’t even know where Beirut, Riyadh or Tehran was located on the global map. The people of the region are probably doing us a huge favor in the long run. The push is now on to find alternative energy resources. Once that happens, the folks there can return to the Middle Ages and no one else in the world will even notice.
August 6th, 2006 at 9:22 am
“after so, so many dead, who wouldn’t want revenge? it’s only ok for israelis to want revenge, right?”
Then maybe there wasn’t enough dead. Sounds cruel. But at what point have enough died, have enough suffered that “after so, so many dead, who wouldn’t just want peace”? becomes what is said?
August 10th, 2006 at 1:09 am
Sandmonkey, you informal poll doesn’t surprise me one bit. It is a sad reflection of the world in which you live. At least you get it.
January 10th, 2007 at 11:49 am
[...] The Sandmonkey put up an interesting post and posed, as he put it, some slightly uncomfortable questions: I had an interesting conversation yesterday with a co-worker, on the concept of the disporportinate Israeli attacks on Lebanon compared to Hezbollah attacks. He pointed to me his dismay at Hezbollah’s rockets ineffeciency at hitting targets. He said “If you noticed, they bomb each other almost equally in amounts of missiles shot, but 90% of Hezbollah’s rockets miss or hit nothing, while all of Israel’s rockets hit something. If Hezbollah had better rockets, the civillian death toll on the Israeli side would be huge, and they would be really hurting by now.” [...]