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Tuesday, 8 Aug 2006
A couple of days ago I was speaking with Lisa, and she was telling me how depressed she was after seeing an Israeli refugee camp for people escaping the North. I decided to check her flickr account to see the pictures of how an Israeli refugee camp looks like, and she was right, it depressed the hell out of me. Altough, the cause of both of our depressions wasn't the same. The arab readers will know exactly what I mean.
The Enterance:
The Camp location:
The Tents:
The Tents from inside:
And the food quarters:
That's their refugee camps. I swear to god I could sell this as a tourist destination and egyptian tourists would go. The first 2 weeks would get fully booked by the Basata crowd in 5 minutes.
Crap!
August 8th, 2006 at 11:39 am
Where do I sign up?
August 8th, 2006 at 11:50 am
LOL
I could have booked a place myself. They gotta be kidding, these people can never be there escaping Hezbollah rockets.
One of my friends thought it was Sharm lol…
And lisa should really be depressed.
August 8th, 2006 at 11:57 am
let’s just say, i ve been to holiday accommodation in egypt that is worse than this refugee camp in war torn israel. How much to become a refugee, do you know?
August 8th, 2006 at 12:07 pm
they should have given the photos to reuters before publishing them, good old fake smoke/body-parts/infants crying in the rain would make it look more like a refugee camp the way we imagine it to be.
August 8th, 2006 at 12:23 pm
One notable difference: the UN isn’t “administering” these.
August 8th, 2006 at 12:27 pm
Why do you want to see us suffering?
What you are seeing is one individual philanthropist’s contribution to alleviate his own people’s suffering. And note not one of them has a T-shirt with their benefactor’s pic on it.
Perhaps you should point your anger at the Arab billionaires who choose to ignore their brothers. No-one on your side who can afford to rent a sea-side camp for a couple of weeks? Come on, Hariri for starters. (You are probably laughing because such a suggestion is indeed in the realm of the absurd but that is your loss).
August 8th, 2006 at 12:32 pm
Yeah Reality Check, we totally rock.
August 8th, 2006 at 12:41 pm
I didn’t want to see you suffering reality check. I just wanted to see how it would look like. Curioisty is all.
I am depressed not because you guys aren’t suffering, I am depressed because people at arab refugee camps are. I am depressed because once again it is confirmed to me that arab people do not value and respect their own as much as Israelis do. That is all.
But no, I am not directing my anger at you, nor am I generally angry at this. I am just depressed because of what it says about us and our philantropists. You are right in regards to the arab billionares remark, but you got everything I said the wrong way!
August 8th, 2006 at 12:42 pm
Here is a comment by Aryeh Abramovitz sent me by e-mail:
The pictures above are of an amazing philanthropists’ donation; Arkadi Gaidamek built two tent towns near the beach of Nitzanim (near Ashkelon), each with room for 3000 refugees, with a staff of 1000 to take care of them (food, entertainment, social workers, psychologists etc’). It is costing him $500k per day. He has stated his willingness to build two more installations to take care of 6000 more.
I have heard various estimates of the amount of Israelis who have fled the north, ranging from 250,000 to 450,000 or more. In any case, though this tent city is an admirable piece of charity, it doesn’t even come close to solving our internal refugee problem. People are taking strangers into their homes, school and university dorms are full, and those who can afford it are paying for hotel stays.
August 8th, 2006 at 12:53 pm
I don’t have time to write a long post on my blog about the subject of this refugee camp, although I did (and do) intend to do so. Let me just give a little background here so you’ll be able to put the photos in context and understand why I was depressed after visiting the camp.
The camp was created and funded by Arkady Gaydamek, a Russian-born billionaire who made his money through arms dealing and now lives in Israel, where he is a very controversial figure due to his rather shady background. He is constantly looking for opportunities to improve his image, usually by opening up his checkbook. The Israeli government has failed to provide for the 1 million Israelis who live in the north. The government has not declared a state of emergency, meaning that those who cannot afford to leave of their own accord have been stuck inside bomb shelters for one month. The bomb shelters have no fresh air, no air conditioning (it’s high summer, meaning temperatures are in the mid-30’s Celsius) and offer no privacy. On several occasions, people who came up just to breathe a little fresh air for a few minutes have been killed by HA rockets.
Gaydamak is paying for this refugee camp at the rate of $500,000 PER DAY. He provides tents, meals, diapers for babies and a full staff that includes psychologists and social workers.
BUT
The camp can only accomodate 5,000 people. There are 1 million Israelis who live in the north. Also, the camp cannot accomodate those people for more than 5 days, so they get sent back to the north after just a few days’ respite.
Many of the refugees are teenagers and children who were bussed down without their parents, who stayed behind. Eleven year-old children are responsible for their smaller siblings. They are scared and alone. Teenage boys have become sexually predatory at night, in the large tents that accomodate about 50 people on mattresses laid out on the floor. There have been several cases of “inappropriate” sexual behaviour. The children scream in their sleep and wet their beds. Some have become mute, have reverted to sucking their thumbs or pacifiers.
Everyone is depressed. They have been taken away from their homes, they have no routine, they have no source of income, they have no control over their lives. They lie around listlessly, taking no joy in the beach, the sun or the pretty tents. They line up for meals, line up for the portable toilets, line up for the group showers, sleep on foam mattresses in large tents together with strangers. And yet, when the little children hear that their time in the refugee camp has come to an end and they are going to be sent home - home to the constant bombardments, the sirens and the bomb shelters - because there is nowhere else to put them, they burst into hysterical tears, hyperventilate and scream that they are afraid.
And the Israeli government is doing nothing to help the refugees with a semi-permanent re-location program that would would allow them some dignity.
That is why I was depressed. Appearances can be deceiving, as is the case with those photos.
August 8th, 2006 at 1:16 pm
[...] an Israeli refugee. Posted by BP at 1:16 pm [...]
August 8th, 2006 at 1:46 pm
Now why is this? Are the Israelis richer than the Saudis and other oil rich Arabs? At today’s prices? Are they afraid to fund Palestinian camps because the money will go down a deep hole, as it did with Arafat?
August 8th, 2006 at 2:08 pm
Are they afraid to fund Palestinian camps because the money will go down a deep hole, as it did with Arafat?
That, and giving away money takes away from their ability to spend it on lavish palaces, European vacations and French prostitutes - all of which help glorify Allah and his prophet.
August 8th, 2006 at 2:11 pm
Where did you get the link to these pictures?
August 8th, 2006 at 2:17 pm
[...] Been focused on the good old Sandmonkey for a bit now so here is another post that is a result of one of his. It is in reference to his comments about an Israeli refugee camp. That’s their refugee camps. I swear to god I could sell this as a tourist destination and egyptian tourists would go. The first 2 weeks would get fully booked by the Basata crowd in 5 minutes. [...]
August 8th, 2006 at 2:48 pm
[i]That, and giving away money takes away from their ability to spend it on lavish palaces, European vacations and French prostitutes - all of which help glorify Allah and his prophet.[/i]
That, and they don’t want to deprive themselves of the useful political weapon of beating their chests over the plight of refugees. That wouldn’t be nearly so effective, as rhetoric, if their conditions were actually improved.
August 8th, 2006 at 3:01 pm
This contrasts nicely with two other recent SM posts - Arab capitalism (Hez key chains) & Arab PR (Jimmy Mubarak’s delegation to Beirut).
In a free & functioning democracy, capitalism (billionaire can afford to pay for camps) and PR (billionaire wants to improve public image) combine to improve the plight of the people, not to fan the flames of suicidal fantasies.
Wake up, Arab world! You deserve better!
August 8th, 2006 at 3:06 pm
reality check,
just to reiterate what has already been said. Like sm, i was lamenting the sad state of our own country. It was introspection, not wishing you ill. Introspection that in peace time, our country is in a more dire state. Not because Egypt does not have the money to do the same as Israel, but because the billions in aid received never get used to help the people who really need it. Credit to the guy who set this up and here’s hoping people won’t need to use them because this will all be over soon.
August 8th, 2006 at 3:13 pm
And Sudanese dictator Omar al-Bashir and other Sudanese politicians are chilling in their huge palaces in Sudan while people rot in Darfur… Forget Israel… It’s time to direct our anger at our own filthy leaders…
August 8th, 2006 at 3:20 pm
drima drima,
our leaders will forever yakloo biladna (steal ). It’s part of the culture. Honesty is not a virtue in arabic culture. Infact if you’re honest then you’re ahbal, 3abeet (stupid), but if you pilfer, dodge, hide then you get respect. It’s easy to pick on them because they do it on a large scale
August 8th, 2006 at 3:34 pm
This was an unfortunate post… Arab leaders have a lot of oil money, don’t they? It’s a shame that they prefer to send their families to London or Paris than to help their own people…
You can criticize Israel for the war (which doesn’t mean I should agree with you) but you shouldn’t blame it for taking better care of its citizens than Arab countries do…
August 8th, 2006 at 3:34 pm
Drima - Nice to see you back in the blog circle. Just wasn’t the same without some intelligent Sudanese perspective :).
I agree with your “foget Israel” comment and let’s focus on our own rotten dictators. For sure man.
clear - Inta mazboot ya ragel! Maybe if the ME didn’t have such useless despots running our countries the whole region wouldn’t be in this current mess. Maybe if our countries ran even a semblance of a democracy peace could have been established decades ago.
BTW, Drima…You said Molokhayia is a Sudanese dish?? Is that right and where did you get that info from? I thought it was purely Egyptian. Just wondering.
Peace all
August 8th, 2006 at 4:55 pm
Lisa -
Thanks for the context. You described it very eloquently. Reminds me of the Gulf States during Hurricane Katrina except that there it was a force of nature that displaced so many people. Your point that this camp is not courtesy of the Israeli government, but of a shady philanthropist, rings bells over here, too. We have a long history of them. So this is the guy, Arkady Gaydamak?
Speaking of philanthropy in Arab states, I would encourage folks like these .
In a phone interview from her home in Cairo, Ibrahim said, “The problem in our region has been that traditional forms of philanthropy have all been nationalized.” State officials were hungry for property. Bureaucracies took over and became corrupt, in some cases, she said.
Meanwhile, religious societies have been unable to meet the needs of the poor and unemployed and undereducated. And Westerners have become suspicious of some of the organizations, which doesn’t add to their effectiveness.
My heart goes out to all of you there - to the innocent on all sides. I hope this conflict will be resolved speedily and in a way that will establish peace and security for Israel and it neighbors for years to come.
August 8th, 2006 at 6:15 pm
NoNoNo………NOO. Drima you are not going to take that away from us.Molokhia is our national dish and noone else’s. Come on we have no other foods to boast of, we just nicked everything from the greeks and lebanese. It’s rightfully ours, it’s one useful thing the pharaohs did for us (apart from a few other things)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corchorus
http://baheyeldin.com/egypt/molokheya-an-egyptian-national-dish.html
it’s ours, it’s ours….
we even have people called molokhia…how die hard is that? bet you can’t beat that!
pg4/35 is Dr. Molokhia from EGYPT!
http://www.who.int/vaccines-documents/DocsPDF99/www9919.pdf
Imagine calling your kid molokhia. for those who don’t know how funny that is, it’s like calling your kid hotdog. How silly would it be if you named one kid molokhia and the other roz,,,ya molokhia ya roz ta3alo kolo
Anyway, on a more serious note….Egypeter
it’s not just about getting the right person out there. It’s our darned culture egypter. Corruption is from the top of the scale right to the bottom in Egypt. WE ve all been guilty of it. Ever jumped the queue because you flashed some cash. Ever got a job cuz you got a wasta or didn’t pay all the tax cuz you knew someone important down there. See what i mean. It’s entrenched in our culture. When we do these things we are just as guilty as the fat cats are for being corrupt, except we do it on small scale.
August 8th, 2006 at 6:24 pm
just like sinai, only without the beduins…
actualy, our goverment has failed miserbly in dealing with the refugees from the north. this is the hottest issue on discussion now. it’s either gonna force us to agree to a cease fire, or more likely, go deeper into lebanon.
August 8th, 2006 at 6:29 pm
Nice joke, but it’s not so funny for the Israelis:
http://www.jnewswire.com/article/1016
August 8th, 2006 at 6:31 pm
not relevant to this post or anything, but I just saw pictures from a demonstration in malesia (or was is indonesia?), where a girl was carrying s huge banner saying “STOP THE WAR IN LEBANON!!! DEATH TO ISRAEL!!!”
people just can’t make up their minds, I guess.
August 8th, 2006 at 7:08 pm
refugee camps for a few days are not the same as refugee camps for 50 or so years. grow the fuck up.
that, and these refugee camps are actually in israel. the ones outside israel are in foreign countries…contrary to the bullshit of the ignorant, this makes these people displaced persons, not refugees, which is a whole different ball game legally and politicallly.
and for the last fucking time, the arab world, and the muslim world, are not one country, and have no obligation to behave accordingly!
thanks for the link man.
August 8th, 2006 at 7:38 pm
“contrary to the bullshit of the ignorant, this makes these people displaced persons, not refugees, which is a whole different ball game legally and politicallly.
and for the last fucking time, the arab world, and the muslim world, are not one country, and have no obligation to behave accordingly!”
Are you kidding? “Obligation.” That’s just the problem. If you are going to constantly whine about the plight of the palestinians it behooves you to move a little past “obligation” and help them. Israel was never “obligated” to take in Jews from anti-semitic Arab countries, but it has, nevertheless, because it wants to help them. If you’re not going to help them, because you don’t really care about them, then admit to simply using them as pawns to foment anti-Israel feelings.
P.S. Personally, I’d like to see Palestinians treated as perfect equals in Israel. Nevertheless, I can’t help but notice that Palestinians don’t fare any better in Arab countries.
August 8th, 2006 at 7:53 pm
Clear - Thanks for the links man! Some cool info.
First off, who the hell knew “Molokhaya” is Corchorus…would have never known. Also known, as “Jew’s Mallow”…huh? lol.
Second, how cool is:
“The plant originated from Egypt, and was the source of health and beauty of the Egyptian royalty including Cleopatra due to its high antioxidant activity.”
Pretty neat that Cleo was using Molokhaya…albeit, maybe in in a slightly different way.
And how crazy:
“It is said that the original name for Molokheya is Mulukeyya ملوكية meaning (”of the kings”), and that the public turned the K to the present KH.
A thousand years ago, the mad Fatimid Caliph, al-Hakim bi Amrillah banned the public from eating Molokheya, among many other irrational things. ”
Trying to ban Egyptians from eating Molokhaya???? Crazy shit! I guess some can “fatwa” anything, huh?
BTW, I live in Chicago. But I know very well of the rampant corruption in our society…unfortunatley.
August 8th, 2006 at 8:47 pm
If it weren’t for the fact that the whole area is in the middle of Jihad central, you could sign me up for a week in August.
August 8th, 2006 at 8:58 pm
-Why is it when Greeks are thrown out to Turkey they are absorbed by their population and the camps are soon gone?
-When Germans flee Communism the refugees are absorbed by the West German population in a matter of years.
-When Rhodisians flee Africa there are no refugee camps for them.
-1948 Jews are expelled from Arab nations in N. Africa the countries of the Saudi Penensula and other Arab nations but those camps were dismantled in a matter of years.
-North Koreans flee to S. Korea before,during and after the Korean War but no refugee camps.
Again and again refugees are taken care of usually by their own but not the Arabs. They use refugees as pawns. As a group they have more land mass than any other people but refuse to take care of their own and would rather use them as tools.
The Israelies will be taken care of by Jews from around the world but the Arabs will languish.
August 8th, 2006 at 10:01 pm
WOW!
Please visit my blog for posts on the recent events.
http://egyptianobserver.blogspot.com
August 8th, 2006 at 10:42 pm
> “An Israeli refugee camp”
Somehow I feel some sarcasm in that description ….
And how might the camp for the arabs with isr. passport look like?
August 9th, 2006 at 1:03 am
People who had to (or were finally allowed to) leave New Orleans and other places on the Gulf Coast were for some days (weeks?) called refugees. But you cannot be a refugee in your own country.
(By then they were wondering if the USA was in fact their own country but never mind.)
Then they were called “evacuees” or “displaced persons” for a while. Now they are called what they call themselves: Katrina survivors.
August 9th, 2006 at 1:22 am
Holy Batman people. Get over yourselves. They are people not staying in 1) their homes 2) at a relative or friends home 3) hotel/motel/bed & breakfast/trailer park/camp ground
What you term them was NOT the point of the post, for petes sake. But rather to simply show you how the other side does it.
eee: can you not see anything without your crimson-stained glasses? you sound like a little whiny kid .. always complaining that THEY got a bigger piece of cake ffs
August 9th, 2006 at 1:32 am
Thank you Lisa for the description of the “camps.” I had seen pictures before but never had the context. From what you said it reminds me of the DP camps in Europe after the war — the listlessness, the sadness, the fear. It’s depressing because Jews have a tradition of taking care of their own and seeing our people in such turmoil is truly heartbreaking for us. May Hashem in all His glory make peace and send everyone home.
August 9th, 2006 at 2:06 am
To Lisa, Thank you so much for describing the real situation to us. After readin your post, I felt sad and depressed for all those people in the camps. And I am just glad that I am blessed with a house and a family to live with.
August 9th, 2006 at 4:01 am
1- Israel destroys all the arab donations in Palestine, some people here are so ignorant for real.
2- This summer camp is a joke, they only need to pack their bathing suit and sun tan lotion
Enjoy August by the beach Israelis 
August 9th, 2006 at 4:45 am
C’mon are you really so cold to kids being sent away from house and family in these times? I know it doesn’t compare to the Palestinian camps, which also don’t compare to the camps Sudanese and many others have/had. But still
Blame UN or Arabs for that lack. (plus I’ve heard from Arabs that many Palestinians don’t want to leave their camps)
And I highly doubt Israel destroys ALL Arab donations to Palestine and to presume that is the only reason that Arab donations aren’t visible. (hint: Arafats bank account for one :P)
August 9th, 2006 at 6:27 am
Bill G,
“When Germans flee Communism the refugees are absorbed by the West German population in a matter of years”
I think the reverse argument is more convincing: no one should flee - the Jews can stay in their respective countries (USA, South Africa…etc) instead of coming and displacing others.
August 9th, 2006 at 7:44 am
Let us create better camps for our refugees!
Can we use Israeli experts now?
August 9th, 2006 at 8:45 am
“1- Israel destroys all the arab donations in Palestine, some people here are so ignorant for real.”
Yes, you are quite ignorant. Who destroyed the greenhouses given to the Palestinian people after Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza? Oh wait, that wasn’t an Arab donation, it was an American donation. Pop quiz: Who’s donated over $1.3 billion dollars in aid programs to the Palestinian people in the West Bank and Gaza since 1993 (more than any other donor nation)?
Here’s a hint: http://www.usaid.gov/wbg/
So it seems to me that most of the “donations” to the Palestinian people are coming from one of the great Satan’s and not the Arab nations. Bummer huh?
*Bonus round! Which nation receives 1.3 billion dollars a YEAR in U.S. military aid and has received over 25 billion US in other aid since 1975? Give up? Egypt!
August 9th, 2006 at 9:34 am
To eeee #34
> And how might the camp for the arabs with isr. passport look like?
Why should there be a different camp? Everybody can come to this one.
Nobody asks if you are a Jew or an Arab, or whatever.
Israeli Arabs pay their sorrowful contribution in this war, in ma-a-a-ny injured in Haifa and Acco.
To Twosret #39
> Israel destroys all the arab donations in Palestine, some people here are so ignorant for real.
What are your sources of information on this? Or is it just your general feeling?
By the way, a couple of years ago you could witness arab (and other) “donations to Palestine” in the Israeli streets and teen discoteques. These donations exploded quite effectively, with many children killed. Come enjoy “donations to Palestine”!
That is why I hate leaders like Arafat. Not because they are enemies of Israel — for enemies you can just not care. Because they never turn to building their country’s economy and infrustructure, even when given a lot of resources for this. They prefer an easier way: fight and complain.
You may have a different opinion, but for many people fighting is much easier than working. Destroying is easier than creating. The first always suceeds in one way or another and gives immediate reward. The second is too long and boring, and results are often not so obvious.
August 9th, 2006 at 9:59 am
Secret agent #43
how about this quiz master. Which is the only other country in the world ro receive even more aid than Egypt in fact the highest amount of aid from the US?
Give up? ISRAEL
Egypeter- so many cool facts about the humble molokhiya…..Doesn’t matter where you live, you’re still egyptian and it’s great that you’re still taking interest! BTW clear is not ragel!
August 9th, 2006 at 10:24 am
*Sigh*
Mashee ya Sandmonkey, the comments el 3andak khalatnee agee bel 3afya!
Secret Agent X-9, you say has recieved that much aid from the US. That’s, in fact, very true. In fact, I work for a USAID funded project myself.
Do you know why Egypt recieves such aid from the US according to the Camp David Agreement of 1979? SO we wouldn’t go to war with Israel… because then it would be a proper war, and no one wants that, right?
Besides, as clear has mentioned, Israel gets more in aid from the US anyways.
Isn’t it weird that a totally harmless post commenting about something that most ARAB readers would understand, rather than our western counterparts, turned into a discussion of what aid goes where and all that?!
As for David, when you responded to Forsoothsayer, you said:
>> Are you kidding? “Obligation.” That’s just the problem. If you are going to >> constantly whine about the plight of the palestinians it behooves you to
>> move a little past “obligation” and help them. Israel was never “obligated” >> to take in Jews from anti-semitic Arab countries, but it has, nevertheless, >> because it wants to help them. If you’re not going to help them, because >> you don’t really care about them, then admit to simply using them as
>> pawns to foment anti-Israel feelings.
>> P.S. Personally, I’d like to see Palestinians treated as perfect equals in
>> Israel. Nevertheless, I can’t help but notice that Palestinians don’t fare any >> better in Arab countries.
Understand this before all your criticism:
1. Arab governments do not act according to the wishes of their people.
2. In many cases people sending monetary aid to palestinians have been accused of funding terrorist organizations by the US, their own governments and/or other nations.
3. Sometimes Arab governments actually work to hinder the movement of money and other forms of aid sent to the palestinians.
4. There are people who are not pan-arabists and thus would not send aid unless they are of a “huminitarian inclination”.
5. Who THE FUCK told you the arab people don’t send aid? You stupid ignorant fool, there are people who can barely afford to eat in this country that I’ve seen with my very eyes put money and other things into convoys headed for Palestine. This brings me to my next point.
6. Do you know how much the average Arab makes?
7. Do you know how much Arab countries are in debt?
8. Do you know how much we get fucked over in the world market?
9. Do you know how much our leaders are fucking us over because of the extremely STUPID trade and economic decisions they like to make everyday? 10. Have you seen how poor most people in countries like Egypt, Yemen, Sudan, Mauritania, Somal and Algeria are?!
11. Israel took in Jews from all over the world, and still are, for many reasons: the need for a stable population to populate a large piece of land they stole from its rightful owners; the need to have an Israeli Jewish population which isn’t a minority on the aforementioned stolen land because the Palestinians are beginning to outnumber them… HELLO!
God damnit! Even if you’re Israeli, it wouldn’t hurt to READ and FIND OUT before you start spewing ridiculous statements like the ones you made in your comment.
That’s about it.
August 9th, 2006 at 10:32 am
To NBM:
The “refugee” label suddenly BECAME offensive for political purposes after Katrina. For as long as I can remember, it has been the EVACUEES who used that term to describe themselves whenever they evacuated. I’ve lived in this area for over 40 years and they’ve ALWAYS called themselves refugees. It was a simple way to explain why on earth they needed directions to get to one of the busiest streets in an area. In fact, the only people I’ve personally seen or heard who claimed to be offended by the term were those I saw on television. I guess we were too busy here in southeast Louisiana to worry about a WORD. Or a comment about a “chocolate” city. Sure, it gave the race-baiters and politicians something to capitalize on. And some drama for the media, who portrayed white people in the Katrina zone as flaming racists and black people as uncivilized animals. They almost looked disappointed when race riots didn’t break out here.
August 9th, 2006 at 10:42 am
SM - pleased I misunderstood you - its the “crap” term that mislead me.
Don’t get me wrong I have a stomachful for my government too. However I enjoy the luxury of a democratic society. As a citizen I can write to any Cabinet Minister I like and tell him/her exactly what I think. I don’t need to blog for that.
Twosret - of the many tragedies the Palestinians have suffered (whether you blame us, them or the rest of the world) the billions of dollars of aid/donations lost over the past 14 years has to be high on the list. The issue of some infrastructure being blow up is truly small change. The real issue is “where did the money go”? I suspect you haven’t visited Israel/Palestine recently but you have seen the pictures of dire poverty in the refugee camps (these are now controlled by the palestinians themselves). I can tell you that sadly, despite some well photographed projects financed by various donor states, the standard of living in the camps has declined since the establishment of the PA. On the other hand, the number of luxurious villas, luxury apartments, limosines, SUVs, etc in the Palestinian cities has growth at an exponential rate. But I don’t know of any industrial sucsesses or IPOs or even start-ups that can begin to explain this boom (in the figurative sense). And that is just the tip. As we know, the big money was siphoned off by Afarat Inc.
If Israel and the West are guilty of anything it is complicity in this economic and financial rape with the erroneous concept that the corrupt officials would keep the lid down on extremism. But that assumed that the corrupt officials were also capable, efficient and could claim to be representative - unfortunately Fatah was only able to meet the “claim” part.
sm - there may a lesson here appropo aid to Egypt. Scary.
August 9th, 2006 at 2:22 pm
“Do you know why Egypt recieves such aid from the US according to the Camp David Agreement of 1979? SO we wouldn’t go to war with Israel… because then it would be a proper war, and no one wants that, right?
Besides, as clear has mentioned, Israel gets more in aid from the US anyways.”
If you didn’t get aid it would be a proper war? Huh?
Oh, and Israel does get more aid than Egypt. Go whine to mommy, “It’s not fair. Sister got more lollypops than I did.” Or perhaps better wait to whine until you have a real democracy and religious tolerance.
August 9th, 2006 at 2:31 pm
“Do you know how much our leaders are fucking us over”
This is what it all boils down to. Everything on your list is you leaders’ fault, but they keep you from recognizing it by bogging you down in crap like Israel hatred. We’re passed the day when people can rule countries without popular support. You can blow yourselves up in Israel — go do it in your own coutries. When the Lebanese got pissed off at Syria, they had to leave. Arab leaders are afraid of “the street” and if it finally recognized that their slums and lack of economic opportunity stem from the leaders and stopped concentrating on the Great Satan, they could do something about it. Go direct you anger to constructive purpose.
August 9th, 2006 at 2:44 pm
“Do you know why Egypt recieves such aid from the US according to the Camp David Agreement of 1979? SO we wouldn’t go to war with Israel… because then it would be a proper war, and no one wants that, right?”
Yes, and a very good carrot it has been to keep you two apart. It’s the same reason that there are U.S. and International troops stationed in the Sinai. Because apparently the Arab nations can’t play nice with the Israeli kid so we all have to act like the hall monitor and keep you all apart (not that it’s working so well right now, but pardon us here in the States if we see Hizballah as terrorists rather than “resistance”…something about them blowing up the Marine barracks, the Embassy, the Embassy Annex, attacking our airliners, kidnapping our citizens etc. really rubs us the wrong way. I guess we’re kind of sensitive like that)
Yes clear, I know that very well. Personally I think a lot of it should be cut, but they are receiving it for the same reasons as Egypt does; namely to keep you two from whomping on each other all the time. You have to admit it’s done a remarkable job at that. Why do they get $200 million a year more than Egypt? I can’t rightly say to be honest. But when we are in the realm of billions an extra two hundred million isn’t much
My point about the aid to the Palestinians and Egypt was in response to twosret in particular. and their statements about Israel “destroying the Arab donations” if it was said in jest then I apologize, but if not then I guess my point has been made.
Oh, and the arguement about “stealing land” I would hope is couched in nationalist terms and not religious terms (even though there is plenty of “Jews this” and “Jews that” on this thread). Seeing as how there is a lot of evidence supporting the fact that Christianity and Judaism pre-date Islam one could argue that technically speaking the “Muslim lands” are “stolen” from the Christians and Jews no? I am just saying that it’s all in all it’s silly to bring religion into a territory arguement.
August 9th, 2006 at 2:54 pm
*sigh* indeed, Faisal…
>>1. Arab governments do not act according to the wishes of their people.
That’s your problem, deal with your governments yourselves (there are always, by definition, more abused citizens than corrupt government officials)
>>2. In many cases people sending monetary aid to palestinians have been
>>accused of funding terrorist organizations by the US, their own
>>governments and/or other nations.
Well, when that’s what they money is actually used for, what do you expect them to say?
>>3. Sometimes Arab governments actually work to hinder the movement of
>>money and other forms of aid sent to the palestinians.
See 2
>>4. There are people who are not pan-arabists and thus would not send
>>aid unless they are of a “huminitarian inclination”.
I don’t get it, I thought the whole problem WAS humanitarian, and if the poor Palis got their dues they’d be out collecting for Bna’i Brith….
>>5. Who THE FUCK told you the arab people don’t send aid? You stupid
>>ignorant fool, there are people who can barely afford to eat in this country
>>that I’ve seen with my very eyes put money and other things into convoys
>>headed for Palestine. This brings me to my next point.
I think he was talking about the FILTHY RICH BASTARDS that control 25% of the world’s energy supply…
>>6. Do you know how much the average Arab makes?
Yeah, alot less than the average Israeli Arab makes.
>>7. Do you know how much Arab countries are in debt?
>>8. Do you know how much we get fucked over in the world market?
>>9. Do you know how much our leaders are fucking us over because of the
>>extremely STUPID trade and economic decisions they like to make
>>everyday?
See 1
>>10. Have you seen how poor most people in countries like Egypt, Yemen,
>>Sudan, Mauritania, Somal and Algeria are?!
See 5
>>11. Israel took in Jews from all over the world, and still are, for many
>>reasons: the need for a stable population to populate a large piece of land
>>they stole from its rightful owners; the need to have an Israeli Jewish
>>population which isn’t a minority on the aforementioned stolen land
>>because the Palestinians are beginning to outnumber them… HELLO!
Yes? Hello? I love the way you can turn things inside out - instead of the Jews being steadily driven out of every other country in the world (including many of the arab nations named above) for 2000 years until they finally made full circle and came back to where they came from (and where the UN finally agreed to let what was left of them have a country of their own, most of which land was settled in complete accordance with every possible international law, not to mention BOUGHT WITH COLD HARD CASH [see what we mean about helping your own people?]), you’re trying to say their whole reason for accepting those tattered remains was… what? To justify their having gone there?
Stop trying to do here what your goverments (which you obviously dislike) have been doing to you for years: blame all their problems on the Jews (oops, did I say Jews? I meant the State of Israel, of course. No racism here, no siree. Just pure political debate).
August 9th, 2006 at 3:27 pm
“Do you know why Egypt recieves such aid from the US according to the Camp David Agreement of 1979? SO we wouldn’t go to war with Israel… because then it would be a proper war, and no one wants that, right?”
Based on history, israel would beat us no problemo. I can’t actually think of a war that we did not win by ourselves without Russian/US help(correct me if im wrong please). Not only is the IDF probably one of the most highly trained armies, it also is considered one of the most high tech armies in the world and they also have nuclear capability. We only ever ‘won’ anything through deception and er deception, the yom kippur thing and those double agents, ‘gomaa elshawan’ and the other guy (anyone know his name). ISrael fought like the whole arab world and won in the arab israeli war! Enough said.
August 9th, 2006 at 3:32 pm
Clear, Dave, X9 (and I’m putting you in the same boat on purpose, to prove how looking at things the wrong way can lead to different POVs having the same question) -
There is one very simple reason Israel gets more money (which is actually glorified defence-industry coupons) than Egypt after the Peace Treaty.
It needs it more.
This is obvious because:
1. Egypt attacked and tried to wipe out the State of Israel 3 times (and these were only the major offensives). In the US-brokered peace treaty, to keep things “fair”, the US agreed to give financial and military support to both countries. But mercifully, the US understood what Egypt knew then (just as it knows now) - i.e. that it is not under any real threat from Israel (unprovoked threat, that is), and therefore has nothing to fear from its tiny neighbor. This of course did not keep it from amassing the largest land forces in the ME with cutting-edge American technology, but then when Pan-Arabic hegemony is on the line you don’t want to take any chances. Israel, on the other hand, is (too) dependent on its American-financed suit of armor for mere survival, especially considering…
2. …that even without Egypt egging them on, there are others in the area who would be happy to finish up the job (Iran, anyone?). Taking America’s interest in the region’s “stability” (i.e. steady flow of oil and western values) it is definitely willing to shell out some clams for its little pardner - not to mention….
3. …guess what? Warmongering Israel has signed more than one peace treaty! Remember Jordan? No? Well, it’s the huge kingdom to the east of Israel with the ruling minority, and, incidentally, the original “Homeland” of most of the Palestinians. America footed the bill for this one too, although with Jordan’s weak status (they didn’t even fight and lose the ‘73 war, the splitters!) it didn’t get quite as sweet a deal as Egypt did.
So when you put it all together, it’s not greed, unfairness, or even lollipops. It’s Arab countries being payed off to leave Israel alone, and Israel being payed to, well, keep itself alive while being the butt of all the world’s jokes.
August 9th, 2006 at 3:54 pm
Agreed, my point was not to negate this. (Agreed for the attacks 3 times part, anyway. We attacked in ‘67 though it was provoked.)
I would also like to thank those here who provide alternative points of view. I may disagree with you, but I’m happy to think about alternative possibilities. And I’m glad we have a forum here to do that.
August 9th, 2006 at 3:58 pm
dr. avi
Arab-israeli war. nuff said, again.
August 9th, 2006 at 4:45 pm
Dear sweet clear -
Una assif.
Will not make that mistake again! And I am, and always will be, fascinated by our country
August 9th, 2006 at 4:49 pm
no problemo Egypeter
August 9th, 2006 at 4:55 pm
this sounds totally ridiculous about egypt and israel being paid off not to fight. And american has nothing better to do with 200 billion dollars other than give it to protect another country- puhleaase! That so can’t be the reason. Can soemone speak some sense please? I don’t know why america gives egypt and israel loads of money but it must be because it needs them. Firstly, without Egypt on its side the US would have no leverage in the ME- now that is a sensible reason.
August 9th, 2006 at 5:43 pm
clear.. have you ever heard of the Suez Canal? you know.. the thing that saves oodles of transit time and therefore $$$ plus a great shortcut for US Navy … can’t have that closing down every time an Arab or Israeli takes a shit. Leverage my ass, tho that IS a side benefit, not that it did any good with Hamas and Syria recently.
I love how Arabs always manage to (roundaboutly) blame Israel for their leaders sucking ass.
August 9th, 2006 at 6:40 pm
Clear,
would you like to join me for some natural tanning in those camps?
August 9th, 2006 at 6:49 pm
Drima babe,
Stay out of my Molokhia Territories once and for all
I can go as far as human rights watch for Molokhia 
August 9th, 2006 at 6:52 pm
Two -
What state do you live in?
August 9th, 2006 at 7:02 pm
Egypeter, I wish I can answer but the trolls are watching
Yaa’ni temshi aa’latool we takhed shemal kedda men aa’nd el koshk betaa’a aa’m sayed lol 
August 9th, 2006 at 7:55 pm
Taba’an ana wakhid balee. Mish moshkela. Leoh intee ebidan teegee Chicago, lazem te ellooli.
Anyway, just curious.
August 9th, 2006 at 8:06 pm
feeh wahed hena essmo curt men? heya dih looooooool. Ya reet teba’a betfhamaha we heya tayra
August 9th, 2006 at 8:08 pm
Raqam wahed we talateen
August 9th, 2006 at 9:53 pm
*whistles*
August 10th, 2006 at 12:00 am
> Nobody asks if you are a Jew or an Arab, or whatever.
Of course that’s a stupid lie - but as Israel is build on terror,murder
and lies I’m not that surprised.
My suggestion: provide the 800.000 thousand arabs in Lebanon -
the result of traditional zionazi warfare - with “refugee camps” like
the one shown above.
And - please transfer the bloody master race to Gaza - asap.
August 10th, 2006 at 12:26 am
Jason,
That was just a private Egyptian talk sorry don’t mean to be rude.
August 10th, 2006 at 1:38 am
“My suggestion: provide the 800.000 thousand arabs in Lebanon -
the result of traditional zionazi warfare - with “refugee camps” like
the one shown above.”
Alternatively, just let them return to gaza and the west bank and let Israel build nice big walls between itself and these areas. Then the millions of them can just live in egyptians type slums there. This plan could be accelerated if Egypt just reoccupies Gaza. It had no problem doing it for 20 years; it could do it again. RUmor has it though they didn’t treat the Palestinians very well, perhaps it would be better for them with Israel. Neh, better one’s pride in a slum than success with the zionist pigs, I always say.
August 10th, 2006 at 2:52 am
oh I was just breaking the silence for people like Dave here
*hugz eee* feel the love brother
August 10th, 2006 at 2:19 pm
Dr. Avi,
>> So when you put it all together, it’s not greed, unfairness, or even lollipops. >> It’s Arab countries being payed off to leave Israel alone,
I agree.
As for Dave,
>> Oh, and Israel does get more aid than Egypt. Go whine to mommy, “It’s >> not fair. Sister got more lollypops than I did.” Or perhaps better wait to
>> whine until you have a real democracy and religious tolerance.
Useless really. Not what I meant at all. America can do whatever it wants with its money.
As for the waiting to whine until we have a real democracy and religious tolerance… er, yeah. Obviously this is a 5 year old I’m talking to here. How did you expect me to react? By being stupid and saying things like: Oh, we’re so much more of a better country than you are OR Israel is an evil country where everyone deserves to die… or something along those lines?
Coz I won’t. I don’t give a flying fuck about Internal Israeli Politics. I don’t even like the god-damned Palestinians. The way I look at the whole thing is plain and simple:
Jews want to come from anywhere around the world and live anywhere they want? Fuckin A, why the fuck not? BUT, for any gruop of people, be they Muslims, Jews, Christians or fucking Pagans suddenly decide that they want to return to their ancestral homeland after… what was it? 2000 years someone said? and then having that piece of land being theirs and only theirs and kicking people out of their homes, destroying property, killing indiscriminantly (or with enough distinction to make sure they’re Palestinians)… I think that’s complete and utter bullshit.
Also,
>> This is what it all boils down to. Everything on your list is you leaders’ fault, >> but they keep you from recognizing it by bogging you down in crap like
>> Israel hatred. We’re passed the day when people can rule countries
>> without popular support. You can blow yourselves up in Israel — go do it in >> your own coutries. When the Lebanese got pissed off at Syria, they had to >> leave. Arab leaders are afraid of “the street” and if it finally recognized
>> that their slums and lack of economic opportunity stem from the leaders >> and stopped concentrating on the Great Satan, they could do something >> about it. Go direct you anger to constructive purpose.
Alright now, stop the intake of any mind-altering substance and like really GLARE at the screen and read the following words:
1. I’m Egyptian not an Arab.
2. I, obviously, have not blown myself up.
3. You’re fucking ignorant because we STILL live in the day where people rule countries without popular support. Look at Saddam. Or was the United States lyring (and still is) when they say (after the botched WMD story) that they wanted to “liberate” the people. Hell, the people must have been collaborators with Saddam according to your theory.
4. After reading that statement again that you wrote about ruling without popular support, I realized that I’m a fool (there! I admit it!) for even beginning to think of responding to anything you might have written.
SO, I will have to respond to Dr. Avi’s response to my comment:
>> Well, when that’s what they money is actually used for, what do you
>> expect them to say?
And you know this because…? Coz just as you apparently know that, I know it isn’t used for that. I know, because when I see people buying rice and wheat and flour and sugar and clothes and putting them in a truck and then have that stuff confiscated by the government… then I know.
The question still stands… how did you come about this information… please share it with me.
>> I think he was talking about the FILTHY RICH BASTARDS that control 25% >> of the world’s energy supply…
Having lived in countries where they live, I can fairly say I don’t like most of them. Still… he said arabs and said you. If he meant those bastards, ain’t my fault he didn’t make it clear. Especially that he was commenting on Forsoothsayer’s comment and included the bit where she said that Arabs are not all one people who have the same exact idea about everything.
We’re Arabs coz we speak Arabic. That’s about it.
>> Yeah, alot less than the average Israeli Arab makes.
Only goes to prove my point; we don’t have that much money.
>> Yes? Hello? I love the way you can turn things inside out - instead of the >> Jews being steadily driven out of every other country in the world
>> (including many of the arab nations named above) for 2000 years until
>> they finally made full circle and came back to where they came from (and >> where the UN finally agreed to let what was left of them have a country of >> their own, most of which land was settled in complete accordance with
>> every possible international law, not to mention BOUGHT WITH COLD HARD >> CASH [see what we mean about helping your own people?]), you’re trying >> to say their whole reason for accepting those tattered remains was…
>> what? To justify their having gone there?
Would it make you happier if I recounted mankind’s history from the stone age? I never mentioned they weren’t driven out of their land. Many people have been driven out of their lands. Some even died out completely.
As for the UN thing, International Law, and all those cute and nice things… Other than the fact that Israel doesn’t seem to give two cents about Int’l Law (hence their not abiding by a multitude of UNSC resolutions), here, check this out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_UN_Partition_Plan
http://www.passia.org/palestine_facts/MAPS/1947-un-partition-plan-reso.html
http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/maps/part.html
UN stuff?
http://domino.un.org/maps/m0094.jpg
http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/cf02d057b04d356385256ddb006dc02f/aeac80e740c782e4852561150071fdb0!OpenDocument
(scroll to the bottom on this one for the maps and watch how they developed over time as more and more land got STOLEN).
You have a good day now.
PS That idiot who commented somewhere and mentioned something about Jews and all that and “hoping” that it wasn’t a question of religion… I don’t know. You can visit my blog… if you catch the word JEW anywhere with me referring to Israel or anything like that AT ALL….
Then e-mail me with it (and swear at me as well) and I’ll write back saying I’m sorry.
Idiot!
>> That’s your problem, deal with your governments yourselves (there are
>> always, by definition, more abused citizens than corrupt government
>> officials)
Never asked for your support in dealing with them, wouldn’t want it even if (god forbid!) you might actually offer it. This was a response to David’s post and my attempt at explaining what goes on in the Arab world.
August 10th, 2006 at 5:06 pm
“BUT, for any gruop of people, be they Muslims, Jews, Christians or fucking Pagans suddenly decide that they want to return to their ancestral homeland after… what was it? 2000 years someone said? and then having that piece of land being theirs and only theirs and kicking people out of their homes, destroying property, killing indiscriminantly (or with enough distinction to make sure they’re Palestinians)… I think that’s complete and utter bullshit.”
What’s bullshit is your view of what happened. If you’ll think for a second you’ll realize that there’s no injustice in Jews wanting to escape the anti-semitic European countries for another and certainly not after the hololcaust. Especially when INVITED BY THE RULING BRITISH. And there’s nothing wrong with legally buying land either. The Palestinians response? Kill the Jews! We know it well. It wasn’t Jews killing indiscriminately; quite the opposite. In fact, you may not be aware of this but it is actually illegal, upon penalty of death, for a Palestinian to sell land to a Jew even today. And people are killed for this. Nice Palestinians.
“1. I’m Egyptian not an Arab.
2. I, obviously, have not blown myself up.”
I’m not sure what you’re trying to prove here, perhaps you’re trying to prove my point? If Arabs recognized that it’s their leaders raping them and not Israel, then the first step would be directing suicide bombers towards their governments and not Israel and the US.
August 10th, 2006 at 5:56 pm
dave from toronto:
it has leverage when dealing with arab countries we agree with ie sunni. We don’t really ‘do’ iran and syria. Valid reason yes about suez but does that warrant all that aid? You know as well as i do that US does not need to give money to get what it wants, lots of means like stop selling us arms, make life a bit difficult with the world bank, to whom we owe millions. What about Israel, why are they REALLY giving them aid?
twosret-
natural tanning in camps? huh? that’s a brill description to your place that you gave btw. So i’ll be there for dinner, about 7 ok?
August 11th, 2006 at 2:20 am
6:45 pm
*stirring Molokhia in the broth and mincing garlic*
August 11th, 2006 at 6:05 am
“PS That idiot who commented somewhere and mentioned something about Jews and all that and “hoping” that it wasn’t a question of religion… I don’t know. You can visit my blog… if you catch the word JEW anywhere with me referring to Israel or anything like that AT ALL….
Then e-mail me with it (and swear at me as well) and I’ll write back saying I’m sorry.”
Hi, I’m the “idiot” that you are referring to. Let me respond to your rant about me.
What I said was very specific and related to this thread, not your blog or website, I haven’t read them and quite frankly based on your attitude have really little interest in reading them. My statement was in response to you saying (and I quote):
“11. Israel took in Jews from all over the world, and still are, for many reasons: the need for a stable population to populate a large piece of land they stole from its rightful owners; the need to have an Israeli Jewish population which isn’t a minority on the aforementioned stolen land because the Palestinians are beginning to outnumber them… HELLO!”
Please note the use of the words “Jews” and “Jewish” in your reply. Your implication in the wording of your statement is that all Israeli’s are Jews and that all Palestinians are not Jews (and potentially not Christians, however you didn’t say that explicitly, but the implication is that they are Muslims as there is very rarely an arguement made for the Jews “stealing” Christian lands)
Now, read my response again…slowly.
“Oh, and the arguement about “stealing land” I would hope is couched in nationalist terms and not religious terms (even though there is plenty of “Jews this” and “Jews that” on this thread). Seeing as how there is a lot of evidence supporting the fact that Christianity and Judaism pre-date Islam one could argue that technically speaking the “Muslim lands” are “stolen” from the Christians and Jews no? I am just saying that it’s all in all it’s silly to bring religion into a territory arguement.”
So, where was I wrong in “hoping” that you weren’t basing your “stolen lands” arguement on religion?
To argue such a point is STUPID which is why I was saying I would hope that you were basing your “stolen lands” comments on an arguement of territorial rights and not religious rights / experience / history. Argueing religion is pointless and leads to someone almost always getting angry or insulted. If you want to counter with some sort of religious arguement for why Jews etc. don’t have a claim to the “holy lands” then please do. If you are willing to openly debate such issues then fine, I will debate it with you in a logical, secular way.
But if you’d prefer this conversation just devolve into name calling them so be it. Enjoy talking to yourself for I shan’t answer you.
August 11th, 2006 at 6:46 am
Oh and Faisal, after posting the above I thought to myself that to not at least read what you wrote on your blog would be pre-judgemental of me, so I took a glance.
“… The Arab world is constantly complaining of the power the Jewish lobby has in the United States. That is the root of all evil, of course. I hardly doubt the Americans woke up one day and decide to throw their fate over with the Jews. ”
Faisal in post titled “113950031690340573″
9th February, 2006
-http://snefru.wordpress.com/2006/02/09/113950031690340573/
“And now that I think about it, if the media can depict the Muslim Prophet Mohammed in a negative context and get away with it by flying the “Freedom of Expression” banner, then the media sure as hell can depict Jews eating their offspring (or whatever) under the very same maxim. ”
Faisal in post titled “113974631969419494″
12th February, 2006
-http://snefru.wordpress.com/2006/02/12/113974631969419494/
That’s from the first two article you wrote in February of this year. Granted, you didn’t say “Israel” in the posts but your later posts make your political viewpoints rather clear.
August 11th, 2006 at 3:45 pm
Ah Secret Agent, how right you are!
These are, in fact, quotes from my blog. Notice the content they were in and as a response to articles/posts from others where I decided to use the exact same words they used.
The second was where Israeli/American bloggers were commenting on the whole Denmark thing a couple of months ago and mentioned that Arab newspapers showed Jews eating their offspring. The phrase “Jews eating their offspring” is not one I would personally choose to use but… I was making a point about the Freedom of the Press.
In the first quote, I was claiming that the Jewish Lobby in the United Statesis doing exactly what they should be doing and that Arabs should stop whining about it.
In BOTH cases, the reference (though admittedly I did use the word Jews) had any OTHER substantial (meaning anything to do with substance, or the topic at hand) mention or even relevance to religion.
Now, moving on…
Secret Agent, you also said:
To argue such a point is STUPID which is why I was saying I would hope that you were basing your “stolen lands” comments on an arguement of territorial rights and not religious rights / experience / history. Argueing religion is pointless and leads to someone almost always getting angry or insulted. If you want to counter with some sort of religious arguement for why Jews etc. don’t have a claim to the “holy lands” then please do. If you are willing to openly debate such issues then fine, I will debate it with you in a logical, secular way.
But if you’d prefer this conversation just devolve into name calling them so be it. Enjoy talking to yourself for I shan’t answer you.
You are completely correct when it came to name calling. That would be no one else’s fault but mine, and I apologize… because I believe I was wrong to do it, especially that you hadn’t started it. Please accept my retraction of all the swearing.
BUT, since you have checked out posts on my blog (and thus the quotes) you would realize that I stand for nothing but secular. That, is as clear as day.
I never mentioned that Palestinians (who are both Christians and Muslims as far as I know) have a claim because they’re Muslim or Christian… merely that they’ve been there continuously for that long. Hell, if that’s the case, then i would say Egypt should get the land. Egyptian Pharoahs went as far as the levant and Libya and Sudan proper in their military expansion.
As for what Dave said:
What’s bullshit is your view of what happened. If you’ll think for a second you’ll realize that there’s no injustice in Jews wanting to escape the anti-semitic European countries for another and certainly not after the hololcaust. Especially when INVITED BY THE RULING BRITISH. And there’s nothing wrong with legally buying land either. The Palestinians response? Kill the Jews! We know it well. It wasn’t Jews killing indiscriminately; quite the opposite. In fact, you may not be aware of this but it is actually illegal, upon penalty of death, for a Palestinian to sell land to a Jew even today. And people are killed for this. Nice Palestinians.
There is not injustice for anyone wishing to leave any place and go to another be it because they are being discriminated against or escaping certain death or just because they want to move. I would not make an argument that says otherwise.
Ruling British = Colonizers who made decisions for a piece of land that was not their own. It was the OCCUPYING BRITISH or the COLONIZING BRITISH.
There is nothing wrong with anyone buying land either… but, if you check the links to lands I pasted earlier, you would notice how the Arabs outnumbered the Jews (as the maps have - UN surveys by the way) in EVERY PART OF Modern Day Israel/Palestine.
As for the illegality of selling lands to “a Jew”, I did not know that this existed. Illegal according to who’s law, I wish to know (because I don’t)? Could you point me to somewhere that confirms this irrefutably?
And no. I still hold to the fact that it was the Jewish (there was no Israel except on the 15th May 1948, and there were in fact, Jewish) settlers in the Mandate of Palestine that engaged in wise-spread hostilities. If this is not the case, please point me towards some other source that says otherwise.
Again, the UN links I posted supports my claim in this, SO, if this is not the case… enlighten me and I will agree.
August 11th, 2006 at 11:06 pm
“Ruling British = Colonizers who made decisions for a piece of land that was not their own. It was the OCCUPYING BRITISH or the COLONIZING BRITISH.”
First off, I’m glad we’reback to facts. This is somthing we can discuss, and I hope be open to alternative viewpoints. With reagrd to the above, I’m honestly sorry that you have had foreign countries ruling yours; that sucks. BUT call them colonizers, occupiers, whatever you want, counties have invaded and ruled other countries for millenia, and you can’t blame the Jews for dealing with the ruling British just because the situation sucked for the Arabs. Again, I’m not claiming this was an ideal situation, I’m only asking you not to blame the Jews for doing what they did.
“There is nothing wrong with anyone buying land either… but, if you check the links to lands I pasted earlier, you would notice how the Arabs outnumbered the Jews (as the maps have - UN surveys by the way) in EVERY PART OF Modern Day Israel/Palestine.”
There are two issues with this. The first is simply that the British gave the Jews a homeland. Again, this may have been poor judgement by the British. And while I think it could have worked out quite well for the Palestiniains, unfortunately that hasn’t been the case. But, again, the main point here is that you can’t blame the Jews for it. The second point is that while there were more Arabs (Palestinians or otherwise) than Jews at the time of independence, you aren’t right about the “in every area” part. In mahy areas, and I believe in the totality of the designated Jewish half, there were more Jews than Arabs. Surfing the web now, it looks like: http://www.mideastweb.org/palpop.htm is a well-researched source.
“As for the illegality of selling lands to “a Jew”, I did not know that this existed. Illegal according to who’s law, I wish to know (because I don’t)? Could you point me to somewhere that confirms this irrefutably?”
In 1996, the Palestinian Authority (PA) Mufti, Ikremah Sabri, issued a fatwa banning the sale of property to Jews. Anyone who violated the order was to be killed. At least seven land dealers were killed that year. Six years later, the head of the PA’s General Intelligence Service in the West Bank, General Tawfik Tirawi, admitted his men were responsible for the murders. You can find a different, but official, report of the law being carried out at:
http://www.state.gov/www/global/human_rights/1997_hrp_report/occterr.html
“And no. I still hold to the fact that it was the Jewish (there was no Israel except on the 15th May 1948, and there were in fact, Jewish) settlers in the Mandate of Palestine that engaged in wise-spread hostilities. If this is not the case, please point me towards some other source that says otherwise.”
Wow; this research is taking way too much time:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haj_Amin_Al-Husseini
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa_riots
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1920_Palestine_riots
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Uprising
Now obviously this as a complicated time and Palestinian frustration is understandable (though I don’t mean to condone killing civilians as a response). Nevertheless, whoever says that the Jews were on the offensive here is obviously misguided.
August 11th, 2006 at 11:20 pm
I missed one wiki article on pre-independence clashes between Jews and Palestinians:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_Jerusalem_riots
August 12th, 2006 at 5:18 pm
My grandparents came from Jerusalem and their ancestors had been there for 2000 years before that. They never left Palestine as did aproximately 60,000 other Jews. According to both of them, the vast majority of “Palestinians” arrived with the first wave of zionism, looking for work on farms. My grandfather put the number at around 140,000, pre the first wave of zionism, who were indigenous to the land as he and his family were. Where on earth did this person come up with the idea that Jews need to return to South Africa and Europe?My heritage is Palestinian as well. Jewish Palestinian! Sorry if that confuses you but I have no where to return to,
August 13th, 2006 at 1:08 pm
Dave, X9
Thanks for carrying on while I’ve been away (when I get my hands on those quack technicians fiddling with my laptop… :S )
Faisal,
At this risk of being redundant (I wrote most of this in the “Our Left, Their Left” thread), the PA has taken all its cues from fundamentalist Islam. Basically, besides the Jordanian law in affect in the PA (despite the fact that Gaza, for example, was never ever connected to Jordan in any way), the PA has linked most Judicial matters, including Property rights, to Shari’a law - meaning all non-muslims are considered Dhimmi and subsequently have almost no legal rights whatsoever. The importance of this is that the obvious religious biases are thus transferred to the (as-if) secular civil government. Take a look at http://www.law.emory.edu/IFL/legal/palestine.htm and http://www.dhimmi.com/dhimmi_overview.htm
As for the demographics discussions, I would like to hazard suggesting you checking out “From Time Immemorial” by Joan Peters, who used Ottoman and British migration and ownership records to rethink the standard view of Jewish/Arab in Pre-state Israel. I will make it clear here and now that the book is highly controversial, with the obvious supporters calling it “revolutionary” and the obvious contenders calling it “hogwash”. What nobody does is argue with the numbers quoted (which were painstakingly dug out from archives around the world), merely with the conclusions reached - mainly, that while Jewish immigration was meticulously recorded, limited, and enforced, non-Jewish immigration was *not*, making many claims of Arab land ownership in Palestine spurious at best (and maliciously false at worst). This, in contrary to the (in the most part) legal actions taken by the Jewish settlers of the time. As Dave said, you can argue the wisdom and morality all you want, but the letter of the law seems to be in Israel’s favor.
P.S. please forgive my demagoguery when using “you” - I obviously mean the view you are representing, and not your personal self (which of course I have no way of knowing who/what/where you are and represent).
August 13th, 2006 at 1:26 pm
Well, it looks like I wrote a bit ahead of myself. Looking through the crtiques it would seem that the stats and numbers *are* contended as well (not surprising, giving the ramifications of the argument.
But *before* submitting myself to the ridicule of my peers, I would like to refer you to at least one favorable critique of the book’s thesis: http://www.danielpipes.org/article/1110
Who knows, maybe intellectual honesty will prevail after all
August 13th, 2006 at 1:51 pm
i swear its far better than el masyaf elli lessa rag3a meno
..
can i give u my number just in case
August 17th, 2006 at 5:15 pm
A while back the leader of Malaysia talked about how there are maybe 15 million Jews as opposed to 1.2 billion Muslims. The sad part was that he asked to wrong question: He asked how to get rid of the 15 million not how to improve the lot of the 1.2 billion.
August 22nd, 2006 at 8:00 am
http://www.sandmonkey.org/2006/08/08/an-israeli-refugee-camp/
more bs brainwash zionism??
Long Live The Arab world israle liars all lies
just like your damn king james translated bibles
god told ther jews too king every man woman and child of Arabs because they all evil..?? but when it came too the virgin jews god changed there mind and told them keep the virgins for themself/??
roflmao
I belive more in the Quran..before i would the jew bible
long live the arabs whom are lied on by Israeli zionism Israel secret hands that rule Israel is britain after all Britain did convet Israel
the holoc is nothing but a lie more germans died in that than jews
here is how jews was made
the serpent prince left Iran sheperd herders town and claimed they was hebrews but no one ever heard of a hebrew till then from the tower of ba
the Serpent prince and his nine sons
the beast is men=9 men the mark is the body change
so i tell ye jews are satans children!
the star of david is a kabal satantic symbol
that is a true fact
and lord of the rings the scrolls was real if u check it out you will found out
that a crown and gold band was found in Iran along with the tile set but token stole the scrolls too it
so let me tell u about these 28 yellow gold rings
froged from hell but satan heself
the one ring too rule them all is upon the seprent prince finger and the gold band is the given too the one choosen a female
the yellow gold band did wrap around my finger and turned into a tiny serpent and did bite me..causeing me to black out
so to become Immortal if the serpent bite does not kill you then ye are now Immortal
Token lied
the scrolls was written by the tongue of thee serpents
you zionism are so full of chit and lies
reptile serpent clansmen
October 24th, 2007 at 4:20 pm
[...] verbal brickbats at Hezbollah and Israel alike, but always reserving some barbs for Egypt. In one post, he wrote: A couple of days ago I was speaking with Lisa [an Israeli blogger], and she was telling [...]
January 10th, 2009 at 5:11 pm
hmmmm.
dude,
you want me to say gee this looks nice.
but the not so fine print says,
give up your homeland of 1000 years, and live in a tent - not a vacation but indefinately.
hmmm - DOESN”T LOOK SO NICE ANYMORE DOES IT?
It’s not a resort it’ a camp!
who wants to live in a camp forever?
January 10th, 2009 at 5:17 pm
molokhayia is most known to Agypt and Sudan but i suspect it was growing before the Pharonic Time, so claiing ownership of the recipe would be a bit like claiming to have invented soup or salads…
it’ good though isn’t it everyone?
WHO LOVES MOLOKHAYA?