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August 11th, 2006 at 1:01 pm
In response to that:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4783099.stm
Go back to where you came from then, where they won’t terrorise you
August 11th, 2006 at 1:06 pm
Maybe it is a different woman, SM
August 11th, 2006 at 1:08 pm
who knew Islamic ninjas were so cute!?!
August 11th, 2006 at 1:13 pm
http://pewglobal.org/reports/images/254-5.gif
hehe, some nice Pew poll would tell it won’t happen in eurabia
August 11th, 2006 at 1:23 pm
love the french, always so fiercely patriotic.
August 11th, 2006 at 1:29 pm
Suzanne, from what I gather, SM is trying to point out the 2 different extremes in the UK, no show that the women are the same people
.
August 11th, 2006 at 1:31 pm
SM,
What is the source of the pictures?
August 11th, 2006 at 1:32 pm
Btw, the caption in the press photo says that the second picture was taken in June 2006.
Anyway, the police action in Britain is what led to their stopping what would have been another 9/11. As British citizens, the British Muslims should be praising the police, not denigrating them.
August 11th, 2006 at 1:41 pm
they weren’t gonna do anything. The police and the head of mi5 were just desperate to show that they are doing something right especially after the forest gate affair. Those arrested are just a bunch of muppets. Just possessing a bit of GTN/acetone hydrogenperoxide or whatever, does not mean that you could have successfully blown up anything. I have flour and eggs and sugar in my kitchen cupboards- does that mean that i bake- no.
August 11th, 2006 at 1:49 pm
Click on the words “then” and “now”, Twosret. Then you’ll see.
August 11th, 2006 at 1:50 pm
If person A tries to kill B, should A get off the hook just because he is incompetent or has bad aim? If there is serious intent to carry out a crime - as appeared to be the case - jail them for life. And yes, British Muslims should be praising the metropolitan police who is weeding out the terrorists from their community instead of bitching about islamophobia and police persecution to their community. The last time I heard, Vikings and Huns were not the ones threatening to blow up planes. If a bunch of people from my cultural “tribe” were being a menace to the society I had chosen to live in, you bet I would do everything in my grasp to help those trying to protect that same society.
August 11th, 2006 at 2:03 pm
Clear: “I have flour and eggs and sugar in my kitchen cupboards- does that mean that i bake- no. ”
No it doesn’t. But if you have flour and eggs and sugar in your kitchen, and you publish cookbooks and are the host of a cookng show and run a business on the side that specializes in baking cakes for special occasions, I would think that you might be known as a baker. Typical cherry picking phoney analysis that characterizes the Arab Parallel Universe.
August 11th, 2006 at 2:08 pm
Alex and Louise,
Well done.
August 11th, 2006 at 2:45 pm
“Go back to where you came from then, where they won’t terrorise you”
Clear Babe, the above statement is very weak and unlike your intellectual self, if a country like England claims democracy and freedom, then those people are allowed to wear or not to wear what they want. Don’t underestimate the harassment of police officers or the intimidation of people in power to people who are different than them.
Merci
August 11th, 2006 at 2:46 pm
Louise,
I’m asking about the news agency source.
August 11th, 2006 at 3:04 pm
Towsret,
“if a country like England claims democracy and freedom, then those people are allowed to wear or not to wear what they want. Don’t underestimate the harassment of police officers or the intimidation of people in power to people who are different than them.”
Here’s the problem - maybe you can help us solve it: These people calling themselves good Muslims come to the country of freedom and democracy and use that freedom and democracy to plot to destroy the country (and that freedom and democracy by extension). Some do it violently, some doe it passively and some don’t participate in it at all - but which is whick is often unknown.
If you take an aggressive stance with them, they claim harrassment. If you take a less aggressive stance with them, they use that concession to plot to kill you. What do you do about that?
August 11th, 2006 at 3:32 pm
Maybe that is why the Isrealits have build a wall
I understand them so well !!!
August 11th, 2006 at 3:34 pm
hahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!! now thats somet that’ll reali piss off those bastards who call muslims terrorists……..well in that case, if they love to see msulims as terrorists, then we’ll act like one………
August 11th, 2006 at 4:02 pm
This picture is like one I saw during the Cartoon Intifada that I will never forget.
One picture said, “Islam is the Religion of Peace.”
And then another poster DIRECTLY next to that one said “Behead those who insult Islam”
It was hilarioous to me. SO WHICH ONE IS IT??
August 11th, 2006 at 4:08 pm
yeah right gurl, ‘cos that’s really scary, oh no! Muslims are going to start acting as terrorists!
Tell me some news bub.
Between the upper strata of human beings who see us all as a profit herd to be milked as much as possible, and the insanity of those who see the only response to this imbalance as blowing up themselves and as many of their fellow ‘herd’ in a protest which actually only hands these people more power, you gotta wonder at the intelligence of the bloody animals involved. Sheesh, maybe we’re not safe to be anything other than a herd.
August 11th, 2006 at 4:34 pm
@Egypeter, the one I loved most was this one:
http://images.google.co.uk/url?q=http://images.scotsman.com/2006/02/04/0402prob.jpg&sig=__z3sh4IrBhwIHaLyz5zO5pqLa4_A=
To see someone at a protest carrying a board stating “Freedom of expression go to hell”.
ROFLMAO
That falls in the category in which you will find the black person stating he is white, the antisemitic Jew, the deaf persons who listens to music with his ears, or if Joachim Kroll would state he did not kill anyone.
August 11th, 2006 at 5:14 pm
[...] Then and now indeed, or rather a cause and effect type of scenario. [...]
August 11th, 2006 at 6:42 pm
Suzanne,
Sorry to interrupt your Laughing your Ass off aired on SM, but if freedom of speech doesn’t allow Europeans to discuss Holocaust through a play, then freedom of expression should go to hell for defaming a Prophet.
Now you can continue to Laugh your ASS off
August 11th, 2006 at 7:00 pm
Louise I wrote that specifically in relation to yesterday’s events. Your knee jerk reaction is to take it that i am defending those young men which i am not really. I am anti the whole ‘oh we foiled thismajor terrorist plot that was going to kill thousands’ maybe they did. However there is no guarantee that any of those people would have been successful- where were thy going to get the charge to for the liquid explosives? how do you get that on flight? The shoe bomber richard reid managed to get the explosives on board but then was not successful. catch my drift?
My opinion is that they may be brainwashed and extremist but that doesn’t mean they have the brains to mastermind and carry out such an operation. I guess time will tell as more details are revealed.
August 11th, 2006 at 7:12 pm
Two,
My understanding is that the laws in France, Austria, and Germany against denying the holocaust were at the behest of the French, Austrians, and Germans, who were afraid of a return of Nazism in those countries. Some learn from their mistakes. Others perpetuate them in the name of honor and dignity.
I don’t think Jews would, as a people, have any interest in outlawing Holocaust denial. It’s not in our cultural genes. Of course, it is deeply hurtful to have someone deny the murder of one third of the adherants of your religion. On a personal level, my family was decimated. On a personal level, I do not take Holocaust denial lightly. But that doesn’t mean I’d want to outlaw it.
August 11th, 2006 at 7:22 pm
“but if freedom of speech doesn’t allow Europeans to discuss Holocaust through a play, then freedom of expression should go to hell for defaming a Prophet.”
Twosret - Europe really isn’t all that free. Most of the states are socialist democracies with heavy emphasis on the socialist. The idea of “freedom of speech/expression”, as encapsulated in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, is left up to the state to define. In Europe, the people have left it up to the state to define limitations. The US Constitution puts that onus on the people.
In either event - we do not have the right to not be offended. This is paramount to “freedom of speech” actually being a freedom.
In the US, Christians had to endure “Piss-Christ”. Why can’t the Muslim world endure the cartoons?
Of course, as a mature adult, I will try to watch what I say and respect your beliefs/religion/etc. But I will never give up my right to say what I think needs to be said. The idea of policing thought is a fascist idea. We all know what happens when fascists come to power.
August 11th, 2006 at 7:22 pm
salut salut twosret babe (wow cool egyptian mom!). you sure know how to flatter you egyptian you!
It’s all lies lies, sweet little lies twosret. I know in the US, mafeesh ra7ma and el police nazeleen 3agen fel naas be elet el baraka, but the situation is quite different in Europe (bar France- don’t like les beurs very much). Post 7/7 do you know who is most likely to be searched? Middle eastern looking/asian looking guys? NO- it’s actually black guys…they are 6-7 times more likely to be stopped even though the number of black muslims is miniscule.
http://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/press/press-releases-2000/guardian-stop-and-search.shtml
comprendez?
The first reaction of the british police when faced with a culling of their own people is to protect muslim communities! How sweet is that? do you think if the coptic community in egypt were suspecting of doing something like that the egyptian police would have done the same? dol kanoo 3aganoona 3agen ya habibti
Finally if it’s so bad in britain and they are terrorising her, why not go back? because they’re not terrorising her.
August 11th, 2006 at 7:24 pm
stopped as in ’stopped and searched’
August 11th, 2006 at 7:44 pm
Two,
I guess the challenge I asked you to help with is too much for you.
Oh well.
I don’t know what “freedom of expression” means exactly in Europe - although, my understanding is that of Dan Irving’s.
Here in the USA, “Freedom of Speach” means only that the government cannot persecute you. However, you can’t yell “fire” in a crowded theatre or incite people to go on a killing spree.
“Freedom of Speach” also doesn’t mean that you won’t become a social pariah for your beliefs or that a producer is obligated to run a play that you developed which questions the holocaust (for example). It doesn’t mean that you can’t be fired from your private-sector job. It doesn’t mean that a newspaper is obligated to print your views. It does mean that if you choose to print your own paper, nobody can stop you.
Freadom of Speach only means that the government can’t touch you for your beliefs. That’s why the KKK is allowed to hold parades in this country.
August 11th, 2006 at 7:54 pm
The idea of “freedom of speech/expression”, as encapsulated in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, is left up to the state to define. In Europe, the people have left it up to the state to define limitations. The US Constitution puts that onus on the people
declaration of human rights interfers in fredom of speechs in that way that no one can attack you for what you are saying, unless it is a racist injure, so I guess a lot of people in US would be pursued in court for rude french bashing !
we can carricature who ever or what ever he or it is, do you know “les guignols de l’info” ? I bet it won’t be allowed in US !
August 11th, 2006 at 8:02 pm
Doctored.
August 11th, 2006 at 8:08 pm
Nomad,
Methinks I wasn’t clear ..
Most of the states that have signed the UDHR define the limits of each “freedom” at the state level.
The USA, vis a vis it’s Constitution, allows that each freedom is inalienable for each citizen but that each state in the union can limit these freedoms as they see fit (like yelling ‘fire’ in a theatre will normally get you arrested.)
In the US you can make racist remarks. You cannot be arrested for writing a play about how the Holocaust didn’t happen. You can do all this as long as you don’t force others to believe what you believe. Of course, most of our society wil decry you as an aborration. That is their right. While I don’t have the right to not be offended, I have every right to walk away, change the channel, or otherwise ignore your message.
August 11th, 2006 at 8:15 pm
I have noticed that
but if you are saying something against or to ridiculise policy of your country (patrie) i suppose FBI would pursue you for being an anti-patriot or a terrorist
August 11th, 2006 at 8:17 pm
Nomad,
You cannot be arrested for being a racist. You WILL be arrested for gathering a group of people and Urging them to go KILL jews, muslims, the French, etc, catholics, etc. you get the point.
August 11th, 2006 at 8:21 pm
“i suppose FBI would pursue you for being an anti-patriot or a terrorist”
If that were true, 95% of the country would be in jail by now.
August 11th, 2006 at 8:23 pm
Muslims don’t need excuses to act like terrorists. After all, they have the Qur’an which has plenty to say about waging jihad.
August 11th, 2006 at 8:34 pm
anonon, you mean 95 % of the country do not agree with Bush ?
well, it is the same here , may-be 95% of the frenchs do not agree with Chirac policy, but either Bush, or Chirac don’t care, they have the monopole of their “divine” power
I remember a few decenies ago in Hide Park corner (London), anyone
could talk and try to get people in their ideas, even for killing someone or a communauty, it is all over since jihadi went on
August 11th, 2006 at 8:36 pm
anonon,
I haven’t had the chance to reply, I’m blogging while doing other things, night time my time is the best time to blog, so stay tuned and don’t jump into conclusions. Same applies to all who are starting and or including Twosret in their replies, People have mercy on me for doing other things in life geeeeeeeez.
Clear,
Aucun je n’ai pas compris, serai de retour plus en retard . C’est mon honneur pour vous flatter monsieur ou Madame?
August 11th, 2006 at 8:38 pm
“anti-patriot ”
Nomad,
Anti-Patriot to have a brain and not claim that God speaks through us
don’t think so.
August 11th, 2006 at 8:42 pm
Twosret, I thought you were living in the States, what time is it yet ?
August 11th, 2006 at 8:42 pm
#33
Nomad,
Have you ever noticed that ever since Bush was elected, there has been a steady stream of commentators on CNN saying that there is no freedom of speech anymore? None of these fools appreciate the irony of their commentary. People rant and rave about how evil Bush & Co are all the time, and none of them ever disappear. Of course, plotting mass murder might just put you in the pokey.
OT, I’ve noticed that ever since 9/11 there have been people screaming that the government didn’t do enough to prevent it. There have also been people screaming that the government is too harsh in the GWOT. e.g. Patriot Act, phone record surveillance, SWIFT tracking, visa denials, airport security, whtever. What amazes me is that these are often the same people. They also talk about getting to the root cause of 9/11 (i.e. what evil did we, as Americans do, to push people over the edge), while also alleging that it was a Halliburton plot, or a Mossad plot, or whatever. What gives? Okay I’m done now.
August 11th, 2006 at 8:44 pm
nomad -
but either Bush, or Chirac don’t care, they have the monopole of their “divine” power
Bush has his “divine” power until 2008, after which he has to give it up and go back to Crawford.
August 11th, 2006 at 8:46 pm
Nomad,
It is not true that 95% of the country does not agree with Bush. But where I live, it is close to that. And they’re not shy about terrorizing anyone who dares to disagree with the anti-Bush orthodoxy.
August 11th, 2006 at 8:47 pm
This is a little dated, but it’s an interesting discussion of what some in the West call Toleratiing Intolerance in Western Europe. I’d be interested in anyone’s comments on it.
August 11th, 2006 at 8:49 pm
I’m living in the US Nomad and it is 2:49 pm east coast time and 3:49 central time and 1:49 Pacific time. Evening for me is 9 or 10 pm.
August 11th, 2006 at 8:52 pm
For the Love of God don’t send him back to Crawford, we need the oil and Gas Co. to keep us living in the west coast, keep him in the East coast with Jon from Brooklyn they can eat Kosher Pizza together (winks@Jon) or send him off to Karen and Jason in Canada.
August 11th, 2006 at 8:54 pm
BrooklynJon
then, americans don’t live under another “maccartrysm”
August 11th, 2006 at 8:56 pm
Twosret, here is a quater to eleven in evening
August 11th, 2006 at 8:56 pm
No we live under Capitalism and Corporate America Nomad
*stands up and sits down shouting Praise Jesus!*
August 11th, 2006 at 8:58 pm
The night is young in Europe Nomad comm’on!
August 11th, 2006 at 8:59 pm
nomad -
If you could read some of our “lefty” blogs over here, you wouldn’t ask that! Add to that a plethora of bumper stickers on cars and protests. You’ve heard of Cindy Sheehan, surely?
Twosret - don’t think it’s possible! Most think he’d rather be in Crawford than the White House.
August 11th, 2006 at 9:03 pm
oh Lord! so this bumper sticker was made for a reason then.
http://www.cafepress.com/irregulargoods.10747222
August 11th, 2006 at 9:08 pm
BrooklynJon,
post #41 was brilliant.
post #43 I live in that part of the country too (inferring from the “Brooklyn”) and I know exactly what you mean. Around election time it was kinda scary.
Bec,
I’m actually looking at that very mosque on 96th Street right now. I live almost next door to it. That is the mosque in which I married my husband. I’ve rarely met anyone radical there. However, after a new Imam preached some smack during Eid Prayers, my husband refused to return. Interesting article (although I have to finish reading it later). Thanks for posting it.
Two,
okay…okay!!
August 11th, 2006 at 9:10 pm
Bec, I only read leftist american blogs
except sometime s a few neocons, so that I imagine what the frenchs look like
and SM, so that I get an opinion of the damage on middle-east policy
August 11th, 2006 at 9:14 pm
Bec,
forgot to add…America is an immigrant culture with a melting pot mentality. As as immigrants (I from Russia, hubby from Egypt), we found it very easy to assimilate because American culture is really just the culture of freedom. Freedom is very easy to get used to.
Assimilation in Europe more often means that you have to be from their originally or you’re never even allowed to assimilate culturally - not fully.
While anyone with an American passport is considered “American”, if you’re an Arab with a French passport (for example), you’re always considered and Arab - not REALLY French.
Unless you happen to be Zidane, of course. LOL.
August 11th, 2006 at 9:24 pm
half true for France :
http://pewglobal.org/reports/images/254-5.gif
the non integation is more for black muslin, they practice their religion very closely, in a naïve way I would say
August 11th, 2006 at 9:28 pm
anonon -
“forgot to add…America is an immigrant culture with a melting pot mentality”
Exactly! Europe is so individually its own nationality that it’s difficult to understand how anyone else could fit in there. And that would probably include me, too! Fascinating that you’re looking at that very mosque right now. Small world!
Twosret - “oh Lord! so this bumper sticker was made for a reason then.”
Heck, yeah. There are several of those on cars in the town where I live. There’s one up the street that says, “Protect the environment. Plant a Bush back in Texas.”
Our politicians are always made fun of, no matter who they are. Cafepress.com does a hefty business for all sides of the political spectrum.
nomad - I only used to read lefty blogs, too. But I’ve been expanding my horizons lately and not all knowledge or wisdon is found in just one place. That’s why I appreciate Sandmonkey.
August 11th, 2006 at 10:26 pm
Nomad,
Good point.
Bec,
“Our politicians are always made fun of, no matter who they are. Cafepress.com does a hefty business for all sides of the political spectrum.”
Heck, I voted for Bush - twice. But I still have a bunch of fridge magnets with his “miss-sayings” on them. The man can’t cobble together a sentence to save his life. You have to keep your sense of humour!
August 11th, 2006 at 10:41 pm
It’s fasinating to see him stare into space as he seems to be trying to piece together how this whole Middle East puzzle fits in with his views on democracy and terroism - and then try to explain it so the average Joe will understand.
August 11th, 2006 at 11:13 pm
Say, Sandmonkey! Did you know you were among the elite of the blogosphere? I found this just now by accident when I looked up Google News when switching from your blog.
August 11th, 2006 at 11:16 pm
Oops. Kofi Annan has something to report…
August 11th, 2006 at 11:20 pm
Anonon,
Re the American Melting Pot,
That’s why our food is so good. National cuisines are freed from the constraint of their national honor here. So you can get sushi with chream cheese in it. And Wasabi felafel. And lychee ice cream. And salad pizza.
And that’s also why the accusations of racism and bigotry seem so bizarre to me. If I were genuinely a racist, I’d have been mauled by a mob of (insert ethnicity here) a long, long time ago.
P.S. Those Russian reastaurants in Brighton are amazing. I assume you’ve been…
August 11th, 2006 at 11:21 pm
Um, that would be CREAM cheese.
August 11th, 2006 at 11:42 pm
Bec, the link doesn;t work!
August 12th, 2006 at 12:02 am
Oooh, sorry! Here, try this.
(You’re famous)
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&q=sandmonkey&sa=N&tab=wn
August 12th, 2006 at 12:18 am
BrooklynJon,
“P.S. Those Russian reastaurants in Brighton are amazing. I assume you’ve been…”
I don’t make it to Brighton Beach much but the food IS great. Really reminds me of my early childhood. I just love the entire cultural mix. But then, in my immediate family alone we have Muslims, Jews, Christians and a Bhuddist - all of different nationalities. No WONDER we had not trouble assimilating in America. If only the UN worked that well. LOL.
Bec,
“t’s fasinating to see him stare into space as he seems to be trying to piece together how this whole Middle East puzzle fits in with his views on democracy and terroism - and then try to explain it so the average Joe will understand.”
Indeed! Especially when it’s punctuated by the Texas “uh…uh…uh…”
August 12th, 2006 at 1:30 am
We gonna cut your heads off… in your OWN countries.. but how dare you Say One Word! Not a peep of protest… Filthy infidels…. Hide Us With Your PC While We PLOT!! NO, It’s all in your MIND! Nothing to See Here.. We’re not plotting… AHHH, Islam!!! With our Blood and our Souls… we die for you, Arafat… Saddam… Nasrallah… Khomeni… we will take thousands with us… HA! you Infidels know it… but Not a Peep!!! Or we’ll…
Sheesh. I laughed at these pictures at first until I thought about it.
How have these people come to represent Muslims? These idiots need their butts kicked. What a crock.
August 12th, 2006 at 1:41 am
Debbie hun,
I suggest you take your blue pills.
August 12th, 2006 at 1:44 am
Viagra?
August 12th, 2006 at 1:52 am
anonon,
You have me beat. Just a bunch of Jews and one Catholic in my small family. But the Jews do come in a variety of flavors. We have a Vietnamese Jew, a Chinese Jew, and three black Jews, one of whom is engaged to a Puerto Rican Jew. Oddly, my Catholic brother-in-law is descended from people who came over on the Mayflower, so I have two Jewish nieces who are in the Daughters of the American Revolution, which is as WASPy an organisation as it gets. But no Buddhists or Muslims for me. Although a significant chunk of my friends and co-workers are Muslim. Being kosher, I serve as their “canary” for Halal purposes.
August 12th, 2006 at 2:36 am
LOL@Jon
August 12th, 2006 at 2:56 am
“If you take an aggressive stance with them, they claim harrassment. If you take a less aggressive stance with them, they use that concession to plot to kill you. What do you do about that?”
anonon,
The job of the FBI and CIA and homeland Security is to protect this country not to harass it’s citizen, The FBI failed misreably (this is the conclusion of the formal investigation).
The way investigation works as far as I understand it , a report is filed on some suspects, D.A. gets involved, court issues it’s order, the suspect gets arrested based on enough evidence in the case and it goes to court.
Abusers of democracy and freedom comes in so many shapes and forms, thieves, rapists, the Oklahoma bomber etc…. are few examples. Terrorism doesn’t have nationality or religion. So many laws and bills has been passed that contradicts the constitution, Gutanamo is an example of violation of human rights.
Lashing on innocent Arab-Americans, Indians and Pakistanis, generalizing and following the theory of benality of evil is unacceptable. No citizen should be harassed for the way they dress or the religion they follow or their objection to the current administration.
August 12th, 2006 at 3:00 am
“Muslims don’t need excuses to act like terrorists. After all, they have the Qur’an which has plenty to say about waging jihad.”
August 12th, 2006 at 3:01 am
In my humble opinion the above statement by Tommy, he should be put in Jail for it but that is what I think
August 12th, 2006 at 3:03 am
BrooklynJon, too funny! A small family, you say? Oh, and I agree that #41 is brilliant! And anonon - wow to you, too! That’s what I love about the U.S. Twosret, you’re here, too?
We’re Native American, English (one on the Mayflower, too), Irish and French. One of my kids looks like a blond, blue-eyed Swede and the other looks like a tall, bookish Jewish kid with big brown eyes. My brother-in-law is Israeli and most of his family is in Israel. (We’ve been worried about them.)
I’ve worked with many Muslims and they were lots of fun. One insisted on taking our boss and me out to Persian restaurants all the time and would tell us all about her holidays and her life in Iran. She would take the Christmas schedule and we would take the Persian holidays. I can see her now, peering through her reading glasses while figuring out what days it would be that year. She could tell the funniest stories and would have us cracking up until the tears would come. (I miss her) Another Iranian friend is a feminist writer and author.
My former boss is Mexican American, but her adopted nephew is Mexican/Egyptian and, yes, Twosret, she’s worried to death that he’ll be profiled one day.
August 12th, 2006 at 3:06 am
Jon,
“Others perpetuate them in the name of honor and dignity.”
And Israel perpetuate it’s actions by self defense and protecting itself from terrorism, When in reality it was built on terrorism.
August 12th, 2006 at 3:07 am
Jon,
I think the holocaust is a horrible act and so is the ongoing holocaust of the Palestinians and currently the Lebanese.
August 12th, 2006 at 3:12 am
Bec,
I lived in many countries and Canada was one of them I lived there long enough to feel that it is home, due to personal reasons I had to move to the United States and I noticed the difference, I have seen so many cases of racism that shocked me about the Americans. I’m not saying ALL Americans are racists but the difference between Canada and the US is huge.
August 12th, 2006 at 3:16 am
Jon,
I hope my reply didn’t imply any underestimation to your family losses.
August 12th, 2006 at 3:29 am
Twosret - “the difference between Canada and the US is huge.”
Interesting. I suppose some of it depends upon where you are and some is because of our history. Hope you haven’t experienced it personally.
Another of my former co-workers is a Punjabi Sikh from Canada. She loves it here. She says she even likes our medical system better! Once in awhile she’d be slightly annoyed by something, but she always attributed it to ignorance. She was most bemused by all the people who started speaking to her in Spanish!
August 12th, 2006 at 3:33 am
Bec,
Nothing bothers me more than the zionist Christians they are the worst! As for me I have thick skin and I am not imtimidated by such acts. Yeah ignorance is how it started with me but then when it happens too often you know that SOME Americans are not willing to learn, they just watch their little T.V. screen and enjoy the Bachlor show, enjoys the talk of Janet Jackson tit more than politics
August 12th, 2006 at 3:47 am
Brother, don’t I know it! The vapidity of some of the American public can be stultifying! But I’ve also met wisdom in most isolated of places. It really depends on the individual, I think. For instance, you’d think that out in the wilds of Wyoming, say, there would be just a bunch of cowpokes or oil workers. When I lived there, though, my best friends were from pioneer families and they were well-read, think-for-yourself, curious about the world folk.
Maybe I’m living in a bubble, but I don’t run into many zionist Christians here either. Actually, many people I know dislike any overt show of religion, which is why they feel uncomfortable with fundamentalist Islam as well.
August 12th, 2006 at 3:52 am
Bec,
I’m female please google me
August 12th, 2006 at 3:58 am
Wow, Twosret! You were Pharaoh for two years?? Way to go, girl!
August 12th, 2006 at 4:06 am
Yeah I was a rare female ruler, give it up though and leading an after life in America
August 12th, 2006 at 4:12 am
Aww. I’ll bet you were a good one. Such a lovely lady you were, too… http://www.culturefocus.com/valley-of-kings-6bsmall.jpg
It’s an honor to know ya!
August 12th, 2006 at 4:20 am
*winks @Bec*
August 12th, 2006 at 5:33 am
Two,
No offense taken.
August 12th, 2006 at 6:30 am
Nomad: “but either Bush, or Chirac don’t care, they have the monopole of their “divine” power”
Bullshit. In both countries presidential elections are held at regular intervals. Their “power” is at the pleasure of the common voting citizenry.
August 12th, 2006 at 7:27 am
Here are my own thoughts on the subject:
http://ibnilllathinah.blogspot.com/2006/08/yes-we-hate-your-freedom.html
August 12th, 2006 at 7:34 am
Nomad, is speaker’s corner in Hyde Park really over?
August 12th, 2006 at 11:12 am
Mideastbeast , I am not sure yet, it is a long time I did niot go there, but I have read those kind of speaches are forbidden
Louise, of course elections occur in both countries, but the administration and elite will remain at handle, if things may change, they will in a slowly way !
August 12th, 2006 at 12:24 pm
Twos,
You’re way off the mark.
“Gutanamo is an example of violation of human rights.”
In what way? These are enemy combatants who have no protection under the Geneva convention.
“Lashing on innocent Arab-Americans, Indians and Pakistanis, generalizing and following the theory of benality of evil is unacceptable. No citizen should be harassed for the way they dress or the religion they follow or their objection to the current administration.”
Who lashed whom? What are you talking about? What type of harrassment? I’ve been to London a billion times and I live among hejabed women (I don’t wear one), I’ve never experienced or seen any of this harrassment. Generalized accusations are not an argument. You have to be specific to make a point.
“Terrorism doesn’t have nationality or religion. So many laws and bills has been passed that contradicts the constitution,”
Name one - if there are “so many”. And in this case, I disagree with the lack of religious affiliation of terrorism. This new development of Islam-turned-death cult is a new religion among some Muslims. When Sheik Qaradawi urges people to pick up arms and attack in the name of Islam, this definitely gives terrorism a religion.
“The way investigation works as far as I understand it , a report is filed on some suspects, D.A. gets involved, court issues it’s order, the suspect gets arrested based on enough evidence in the case and it goes to court.”
Indeed, but others are questioned in connection in with the case. They may be completely innocent and the police are not accusing them of anything but the want to get more information on the suspect. These people have the right to refuse to speak (in which case they have to be supeonad and given a lawyer) but the police is fully within its rights to ask the questions.
We are questioned every time we re-enter the US because my husband still travels with his Egyptian passport. They are always polite and we never feel harrassed. My hijabed sister-in-law was shocked during her trip here from Egypt at the lack of harrassment. She was expecting at least some and was met with total disinterest.
My hijabed aunt was stunned by her neighbourhood’s generosity after 9/11. In North Carolina, the non-Arab neighbors brought the family flowers and called to let them know that they loved them and supported them. They didn’t want them to feel bad or that they would be hated because the attackers were “Arab”.
Where are all these massive violations of human rights?
August 12th, 2006 at 12:25 pm
Jon,
you have different flavours of Jews in your family!??? How cool.
August 12th, 2006 at 12:44 pm
anonon,
You create a hypthetical scenario and ask me a question and I reply to your question and give you what I think.
You come back with personal experience excuse me?! who is really off mark here? what are you trying to prove? what is your problem exactly?
August 12th, 2006 at 1:04 pm
“Who lashed whom? What are you talking about? What type of harrassment? I’ve been to London a billion times and I live among hejabed women (I don’t wear one), I’ve never experienced or seen any of this harrassment. Generalized accusations are not an argument. You have to be specific to make a point.”
I wasn’t talking about London, I live in the US and there were so many examples of people suffering from backlash after 9/11. Many people are detained and not offered a lawyer and were not on trial even for 5 yrs.
Here is a list from ADC
http://pdftohtml.spiritofanime.com/pdf2html.php?url=http://www.adc.org/terror_attack/9-11aftermath.PDF
August 12th, 2006 at 2:16 pm
Twos,
My problem is that you claim all this harrassment by police and all these human rights violations and give me absolutely NO evidence of it.
You also fail to anser the original question: how do you offer people freedom when they use that freedom against you? How would you approach the problem if you don’t like the way the police is doing it?
My personal experience is to illustrate that I personally think that the police in not harrassing and I disagree that I lost any liberties.
in response to Post #96:
you offer a link where private individuals have wronged people they thought were Arabs (Hate Crimes). The government’s job is to PROSECUTE hate crimes - if somebody is determined to commit a hate crime against you, there’s little the police can do to stop it unless they are notified ahead of time - wouldn’t you agree. And each one of those attacks were prosecuted to the full extent of the law. The government did its job.
Airline Racism - 60 passengers were expelled? How many of them were drunk? How many of them made threats? No specifics were given. Let’s just assume that this tiny number of people (60 out of 300 million) were denied boarding for purely illegitimate reasons, Airlines are PRIVATE. The government didn’t harrass them.
Employment discrimination - not harrassment by the government. Almost all employment in the US is in the private sector. However, one Arab working at the FBI did file a discrimination charge. The FBI investigated and found that he was indeed discriminated against after 9/11 on the basis of his ethnicity and corrected that situation. In other words, the government did its job.
Law Enforcement Profiling - the questioning for no “apparent reason”. The reason may not be apparent to them but mere QUESTIONING is not tantemount to HARRASSMENT.
Tensions in School - a.) a whopping 45 cases in a population of millions of Arabs is hardly systematic atrocities against Arabs. b.) This is also not goverment harrassment. School kids are not the government - neither are individual employees of the school system. The government must investigate and mete out punishment if these things occur but they did not occur at the request of the government.
Discriminatory customer service - again, not government harrassment.
The Patriot Act closely mirrors the very law that allowed the surveillance that caught the recent liquid explosives plot before you and I could have been blown to smithereens. Furthermore, it has stood constitutional challenge and found to be constitutional. Even the ADC lists it as a mere “concern”.
Here’s what I ask of you: please provide me one clear incident where the US government has ACTUALLY harrassed. And please don’t give me the sociopathic answer that amounts to “we can do whatever we want and nobody has the right to even ask us a question”. That is NOT guaranteed under the constitution.
C’mon, Twos. Can’t you do better than this?
And if the harrassment of Arabs here is so horribly bad, why are we not seeing a mass exodus of Arabs from America.
August 12th, 2006 at 2:21 pm
anonon,
Thanks for your reply and I will reply shortly, sorry breakfast time at my end.
August 12th, 2006 at 2:36 pm
Okay, twos. I have cereal with blueberries calling my name too (drinking my coffee while I write this)..
My husband wanted to add something to my previous post, though:
Contrast the concerns that Arabs have in America - ostensibly due to the American Government - to the reactions of Arab governments:
When Israel went to war with Arab countries, said countries dispossed and kicked out its jewish populuations. Saudi Arabia doesn’t allow the practice of any other religion within its boarders (never mind what that “pesky” Koran has to say about that). In Egypt, political prisoners are tortured. Perhaps that’s why there’s not a huge Arab exodus from the US - our civil liberties and our SAFETY (first and foremost) is protected by the government. Where else in the world does a government work so hard to protect its citizens?
Perhaps this is why Arabs like you and me are not eager to flee this “harrassment”.
August 12th, 2006 at 6:38 pm
In my humble opinion the above statement by Tommy, he should be put in Jail for it but that is what I think
I should clarify. I don’t mean to suggest that every Muslim is a terrorist, but plenty of material in the Qur’an can and has been interpreted to justify terrorism. Many Muslim terrorists find their justifications from within the Qur’an and the hadiths.
August 13th, 2006 at 4:39 am
anonon,
It doesn’t take me 11 hours to have breakfast
but, it is Saturday, gorgeous day where I live to swim, enjoy nature, and have some good quality time with family.
Let me explain some of my ideas to you first before I reply, I believe strongly that religion should never be part of politics in this country, the founding fathers of America have wished for us to live as you say in the land of the free. I believe that Islam has been hijacked by many (also few compared to the number 1 billion muslims around the world). Unlike many Copts Christians in Egypt I only saw the good side of Islam and muslims and was never subjected to any discrimination. I believe that when people plot to kill others they have nothing to do with religion or God.
I want my children to live in peace and enjoy their country America and live free, you don’t get that just because you are born in America, you don’t get that simply because you have an American Passport, you get that by your hard work and contributions to your community, country and politics.
I object to the current administration, the illegal occupation of Iraq, Abu Ghraib, secret prisons, torture, forgein policy that made the world hate us, corporate America, drug companies policies, horrible health coverage, the pathetic situation of our senior citizens, Oil situation etc……
I object more importantly for my 35% portion of taxes that I pay to support killings of innocent people and supporting Israel and it’s barbaric actions. Just thought I will give you an overview of what I think so you won’t think I encourage in anyway lack of police actions to catch those who threatens our country.
Back to your post
“In what way? These are enemy combatants who have no protection under the Geneva convention.”
I disagree with you I consider them POW not enemy combatants. Many of them are out now after pressure on the BUSH Gov. and taking legal actions against America for illegal arrests for years.
“My problem is that you claim all this harrassment by police and all these human rights violations and give me absolutely NO evidence of it.”
You are more than welcome to ask for public records and do your own research for it. I’m not here to provide evidence for the entire US harassament records, and it will be very unreal for you to claim it never happened.
“how do you offer people freedom when they use that freedom against you? How would you approach the problem if you don’t like the way the police is doing it?”
When the FBI fails misreably to protect us this is how they use the freedom against us. The role of the Police is to question not harass, investigate not detain without proper evidence. There is law and constitution, and the 5th amendment that is used to protect Enron and Co
This is the Job of the police not you and me to figure out. I’m not objecting to the police role in well based case.
There is ignorance and lack of knowledge in many cases about Islam, the M.E. and it the role of Americans to do their home work and our role to show a good example of Arab-Americans Muslims and Christians.
Now please read this
http://www.amperspective.com/html/four_years_after_9-11.html
And this from Al-Gore
“Former Vice President Al Gore told a mainly Saudi audience on Sunday that the U.S. government committed “terrible abuses” against Arabs after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, and that most Americans did not support such treatment.
Gore said Arabs had been “indiscriminately rounded up” and held in “unforgivable” conditions. The former vice president said the Bush administration was playing into al-Qaida’s hands by routinely blocking Saudi visa applications.”
“The thoughtless way in which visas are now handled, that is a mistake,” Gore said during the Jiddah Economic Forum.”
Please google and read about the harassement and come up with your own conclusion.
With respect,
Twosret
August 13th, 2006 at 4:51 am
In response to your husband’s note,
“Perhaps this is why Arabs like you and me are not eager to flee this “harrassment”.”
I know enough people including myself and my husband who has been affected by some ignorance and discrimination, and you and I are not gonna leave, we are here to stay
unless we are treated like Japanese Americans.
Now, Saudi Arabia never claimed freedom or democracy no? Israel claims democracy and freedom when in reality it is a terrorist state and is discriminating against Christians in the holy land. Please refer to this long post of mine in reply to Alex. Comment #112, 114,115,119, 122.
I’m against the Saudi Arabia policies especially when it comes to the hypocrisy of American soldiers carrying their bible in and Christian Arabs can’t. I’m with him on that. I heard that there is this guy I will dig into the news to find the source for you, that is starting democratic party in Saudi Arabia, we better keep an eye on him and support him.
I’m sure I haven’t answered all your questions but I’m exhausted (so please forgive the incoherent sentences and spelling mistakes) but there is always tomorrow InshAllah.
I have on another thread a Raccoony that is awaiting some replies too.
Good Night
August 13th, 2006 at 4:55 am
Sorry forgot the link to check my replies on Saudi Arabia and religious discrimination in Saudi vs. Israel
http://www.sandmonkey.org/2006/08/07/nazi-speak/#comments
August 13th, 2006 at 3:04 pm
Twosret, you define Israel as a “terrorist” state.What exactly are the the qualifications you use for that definition, exactly?
August 13th, 2006 at 6:41 pm
Twos,
“I believe that when people plot to kill others they have nothing to do with religion or God.”
We are in complete agreement. However, Qaradawi says to fight SPECFICALLY “in the name of Islam” against Americans, Israel, etc. And fight with GUNS, mind - not ideological fighting. And Qaradawi is consdered a “moderate”, not like Nasrallah. So what are we supposed to think when this is the rallying cry? So, I guess we’re not really at war with Islam (as the Muslim world presents it), we are at war with plain old Godless fascists.
“I disagree with you I consider them POW not enemy combatants. Many of them are out now after pressure on the BUSH Gov. and taking legal actions against America for illegal arrests for years.”
You are free to disagree. However, according to the Geneva Convention, they are not POWs. They are enemy combatants and are thus not under the protection of the Geneva convention for POWs.
I don’t believe there has been any systematic government descrimination. Each incident of illigal descrimination has been prosecuted by our government.
The FBI is protecting us fine. I know for a fact that both my husband and I have been checked by the FBI repeatedly as part of immigration. I have never felt harrassed and because the FBI has found us about as suspicious as prarie grass, they’ve never even called us.. Hubby has never felt harrassed and neither have any of the other immigrants I know or anybody they know - these are all Arabs and Iranians. Like I said, I live next to the largest Islamic Center in NYC and people there are so happy that they are NOT harrassed. Most of them are not from the US and they know that back home they would have all been rounded up had a 9/11 occurred there. Two of my Arab Muslim friends have been questioned by the FBI - one is a chemist and the other an Aviation Engineer. They found the FBI respectful and apalogetic for the “disturbance”. Certainly, it was uncomfortable being questioned but neither felt harassed. You may call all.
I read in the NY Times magazine about a handful of Saudi men - who shared similar names with terror suspects - who were rounded up within days of 9/11 when the country was petrified. They were released with apologies. Some are now suing the government. Here in America, if the government wrongs you, you have recourse. Could you sue Mubarak for wrongful imprisonment?
“Now, Saudi Arabia never claimed freedom or democracy no?”
I think it’s quant (in a bad way), this moral equivellancy. “We demand you give us the rights of your society so that we can use them to undermine your society in peace”. However, Arabs didn’t give Jews any rights after the creation of Israel. No, Jews were dispossed and kicked out. But that’s okay, right? After all, Arab countries don’t call themselves free and plural societies and are thus not obligated to behave as such. So Arabs demand of free societies to extend those rights to while not actually believing in those principals themselves. So, free societies have to leave themselves undefended against those societies which seek to destroy them. You don’t see the problem with that?
“You are more than welcome to ask for public records and do your own research for it. I’m not here to provide evidence for the entire US harassament records, and it will be very unreal for you to claim it never happened.”
Well, I have done. I’ve found no systematic descrimination - that’s my point. Perhaps you could have shown me something I missed but you’ve failed to do so. Frankly, I would think that if it were so systematic, you would be able to come up with about a million examples (exaggeration for emphasis, of course). I would surely think that you would have something more than the ramblings of a half-crazed politician who’ll be telling us the world is flat next. Which brings us to the next subject….
Crazy Al Gore is a.) no longer part of the government and has no special information, b.) provides no examples in his accusations and c.) is still bitter about losing his election. The guy is a nut job on the brink of a psychotropic drug prescription. Incidentally, I vote both republican and democrat, so this is not a partisan opinion.
So, Crazy Al Gore was screaming that Bush “betrayed” this country and didn’t do enough to stop 9/11. So now we’re checking each individuals thoroughly before we give visas to folks from the countries from which the 9/11 terrorists hailed. Now, Al is claiming that this is tantemount to abuse of the Arabs. So which is it? Too much or too little?
I think it’s interesting too that you choose the ramblings of Al Gore and completely ignore the multiple - and BI-PARTISAN, mind - pleas from various members of congress and our sitting president to show kindness to America’s Arab and Muslim communities and sternly reminding the public that violence against said communities will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. I wonder why you left that out but felt the need to quote Al Gore.
If Israel is a terrorist state, then why do Christians and Muslims live there? If they are the “4th Reich”, then why are the Muslims not lined up to flee?
Twos, I know a few Copts who have had various experiences in Egypt. But you have to seperate the policies and actions of governments and the actions of some individuals in that society. If you are looking for a utopian society where you will not find ONE person why will say something to offend you, you will look forever and die disappointed.
“I know enough people including myself and my husband who has been affected by some ignorance and discrimination, and you and I are not gonna leave, we are here to stay
unless we are treated like Japanese Americans.”
Hubby writes: That’s just it - we haven’t been wronged by the US government. That’s why we are not leaving. You claim we have been mistreated in an “unforgivable” way. I say: if we had, then we would leave, no? We are free to leave from this free country.
Anonon writes: Twos, I too write respectfully and apologize for my undoubtedly large number of grammatical and spelling mistakes. I disagree with you entirely but I appreciate hearing your opinion.
August 13th, 2006 at 10:00 pm
anonon,
3 quick points:-
1- You never checked public records
2-You never read my post on Christians in Israel and the discrimination against them
3- Your Al-Gore attack shows that you will never let your child play again with their competitors especially if they lose a competition. How sportif
You are excited too much about this site or just shooting posts to give your own experience along with hubby.
Enjoy the show
August 14th, 2006 at 1:17 pm
Twos -
A few quick points:
1 - you have no idea what I’ve done and what I haven’t
2 - you never managed a credible response to my question, instead choosing the same whiney complaint that life sucks for Arabs here and that your worthlessness is a result of oppression by a country in which you live freely and which seeks to protect you.
3 - The fact that I can’t stand, drooling rants of a political has-been who won’t get off the world stage despite the onset of dimentia is a right guaranteed to me by the constitution. It’s not because he lost - it’s because he’s an idiot. The fact that you worship him says a lot of scary things about you.
4 - I am excited about this site. It’s a great blog. You post your endless, terrorist-loving nonesense all the time but I’m “shooting” off when I appose you. Interesting. Psychotic, but interesting.
August 14th, 2006 at 2:04 pm
Whatever Russian Jew convert no problem!
August 14th, 2006 at 2:20 pm
oooh! did you just call me a jooooo? too much for your ity-bity mind, huh?