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Friday, 11 Aug 2006
*This conversation took place today between me and my grandmother*
Me: Hey Granny, I have a question for you.
GM: Yes, sweetie, what is it?
Me: Well, ok. Do you remember if the Newspapers used to show the pictures of egyptians who died on the hands of Israel in the 50's and 60's?
GM: What?
Me: Like, you know how when you open the newspapers you always see those pictrues of israeli casulaties. Did we used to do that when they killed our people?
GM: No. Now that you mention it, we never did that. We would have thousands who died on their hands in Sinai and they would never publish a single charred or bloody body. Why do you ask that?
Me:Well, ok. Do you rememebr the Qana massacare. You know the building that the israelis bombed and killed all of those babies in? And they had this guy, with the green hemlet carying the little dead girl and crying and stuff?
GM: Yeah. That was awful.
Me: Well, for the past week or two american and israeli websites have been focusing on that guy. The reason for it was that there is a number of photographs of him carrying that little dead girl, and they are all taken by different photographers with different time stamps. One at 10 am, one at 12 pm, one at 1 pm, one at 4 pm.
GM: Of the same girl? Howcome?
Me: Well, there are 2 explanations of that: One is that the different photographers had different time settings on their cameras. The other explanation is that he was using the little dead girl as a prop while posing for the cameras?
GM: Oh God. Like fake acting with the child?
Me: Yes. something like that. But I chose to believe the first explanation at first. That this is nothing but a misunderstanding with digital timers, until I saw this video this morning.
GM: Why? What was in it?
Me: Well, the video showed that guy putting the little girl on a stretcher inside the ambulance, and then looks at the camera and points to the guy to continue filming. He then comes back, wears his green helmet, they pull the girl out of the ambulence..
GM: No…
Me: and he then moves her to another stretcher, tells everybody to back out of the shot and shows the dead girl's face for the camera.
GM (grief stricken): Oh No..
Me: And watching that made me wonder. Don't we have, in our culture, in our religion, the concept of the sanctity of the dead (7ormat el Mowt)? I mean, I udnerstand that those were killed by isarelis and that those people just want to show the world what the isarelis do, but don't we have respect for the dead? Don't we make sure, when someone dies and we wash them up, that no one, but those who wash him/her, get to see the body?
GM: No, you are right. You are a hundred percet right. The dead have sanctity. They always did. We never showed the dead bodies of our people like that back in the 60's and 50's. It wasn't even a question.
Me: Then what happend? When did this become Ok?
GM: I don't know. It's the media. This new media. That's what they like. That's what makes them happy.
Me: But their media doesn't do that. The Israeli media never shows pictures of their or our dead. Neither do the western media in general. Remember 9/11?
GM: Yes.
Me:Rememebr how they kept repeating the footage of the plane hitting the building, and of the peoplejumping from the building. But they never showed them hitting the ground and dying, did they?
GM: No. No, they never did!
Me:And they never did show a single body of thsoe 3000 americans who died, out of respect to their death. Or how about the british media at 7/7, when they had those bombs go off at their subway and buses? Always showed a picture of the Destroyed Bus or the subway station, but never the dead bodies.
GM: That's true.
Me: But when Qana happend, what did our media do? What did Al Jazeera do? They showed the video of the dead babies every 20 seconds. Over and over again. I counted.
GM: Yes, yes don't remind me. I remember.
Me: You know what was thw worst part of that Video I saw today was? When they showed you the baby, they made sure to cover her face digitally. That hurt. That was a slap on the face. The video showing us exploiting our dead and the german media respecting them.
GM: the German media did the right thing. It's not right to show them like that.
Me: IT's wrong. Its pornographic. It's like they are going: Dead babies, dead babies , who wants to see dead babies? We have dead babies and children and we always love to show them to you at every chance we get.
GM: (silently whimpers)
Me: You know, I have a friend I was spekaing to today. He works in investment. His job entails reading the egyptian newspapers at work. He tells me that he can no longer do his job, because his desk is now coverd by newspaper showing pictures of dead babies. That's what he has to see everyday.
GM: Ya 7aram yabny. (That poor kid)
Me: But its never enough. They always have to show them to you, at every opprutunity. It's pornographic. It's obscene! How come people don't say something abou this? Why don't they tell the media to stop? That this is wrong? That the dead should be respected, not exploited? Howcome no one says anything? What happend to 7ormat el Mowt? What happend to us?
GM (looks at me sadly): Al Donia Bazet. (The world has gone wrong!)
sigh…
August 11th, 2006 at 2:44 pm
When you have photographer coming from all over the planet, it’s possible that they use different time settings.
August 11th, 2006 at 2:47 pm
SM,
You are following an Israeli conspiracy theory, very typical of an Egyptian
August 11th, 2006 at 2:52 pm
Twosret, READ THE POST AGAIN!
August 11th, 2006 at 2:52 pm
Right! It’s an Israeli conspiracy to photograph the dead and post them all over the internet. Arabs do no wrong - they are always the ones who are wronged.
Bin Laden is just part of the CIA conspiracy. The “muslims” didn’t commit the terrorist act on 9/11. Poor poor Muslims!
Precisely why my Muslim husband never wants to return to the ME..
August 11th, 2006 at 3:01 pm
http://www.zombietime.com/reuters_photo_fraud...
http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/?id=110008...
Jan
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N073...
http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl ?
http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/184206.php
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L063...
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/005687.htm
August 11th, 2006 at 3:02 pm
Wow, you’re a brave desert bipedal hominid.
The reason this story is important is that allowing anyone to use dead children as props and propaganda encourages more dead children. Not that your point on the sanctity of the dead is invalid or anything, just that any such scam (if it is one) means dead kids provide a military advantage. The EU, UN, and almost the entire world reacted so quickly, without thinking, that it was successful beyond imagination. Most people will never know any different. The media never follows up with the intensity it originally reports unless it’s, say, pictures of Iraqis wearing leashes. Which, by the way, is called art in New York and Los Angeles. Context, context.
August 11th, 2006 at 3:05 pm
And will Al-Jazeera have the guts to show this video?
August 11th, 2006 at 3:07 pm
The tragedy that the Issies created at Qana is not forrgivable by a simple “Oh whoops sorry folks!.
But what we see here is an exploitation of that tragedy. I think that is what our host is saying here.
Really this blog would be much more interesting if people would go back commenting on the Sandmonkey’s original post instead of commenting on the comments. So forget my opinion. Please do not comment on it.
August 11th, 2006 at 3:27 pm
What does it change if some guy decided to exploit the tragedy for some PR?
Does it make the Israeli act more jutifiable? Does it exhonerate them from the responsibility?
Its not like the guy killed the babies and is puting the blame on the Israelis, he is just showing the world what they did. Maybe its not very appropriate, but judging from the world’s reaction and the 48 hrs cease fire that resulted from the international outrage, I say this guy has indirectly helped save the life of 60 innocent Lebanese civilians ( 30 being the average number of civilian casualties per day).
August 11th, 2006 at 3:35 pm
I donnow, on one hand it is despicable and disrespectful to the dead.
But if that will mean less people will die if those picture are published and shown, if this disrespect is making the world say no to the war and save the lives of other people then I think the sanctity of life is much more important than the sanctity of death.
Yes shame on him for holding that dead child and parading him in front of the camera, but if that act has helped end the war and spared the live of a another child then my I donnow if it is still wrong.
Also did you really tell your grandma “pornographic” ?
August 11th, 2006 at 3:36 pm
before the flames start pouring, about my previous post, I am not saying it is ok, I am saying if it did contribute to ending the war it might be ok.
August 11th, 2006 at 3:37 pm
Yeah dude, she is cool like that.
August 11th, 2006 at 3:40 pm
Anonymous Leb, one more thing. I get your point, but I am just wondering if we have reached this stage where our values- and respect for the dead always was a big one of our values- have become so compromised, you know? I mean, where are we ethically, religiously or spiritirually, if we become ok with parading the dead around just because it might save a life or two?
August 11th, 2006 at 3:41 pm
Dead kids as propaganda. The more photogenic, the better.
Problem is that people get insensitized after a while. No shock value anymore.
August 11th, 2006 at 3:59 pm
Anonymous Leb:
Another thing to question here: is the purpose of exploiting the dead children really defensive in purpose, or are they being used as a weapon? In other words: are these videos intended to end the war, or to recruit more fighters?
August 11th, 2006 at 4:00 pm
I’m very glad you wrote this post, because as a Jewish Israeli I did not want to touch the subject with the proverbial 10 foot pole.
I have stopped reading most of the Arab blogs because of those photos - those pornographic images of death. I have seen enough mutilated bodies in real life, at the sites of suicide bombings in Israel. I’ve smelled them, too. I don’t need to be reminded of that and I certainly cannot stand the idea that some cynical, heartless people are using the bodies of children to make a political point.
One of the things that makes me particularly ill about this war is the “who’s suffering more contest.” As my sister said, I wonder what the prize for that is?
August 11th, 2006 at 4:00 pm
I beleive this is the only thing a hopeless nation can do. We have nothing in our hands to do, we are desperate for help. They are seeking support by any means possible.
So as not to be misunderstood, I totally support Hezb Allah. What I meant was, we have no political influence whatsoever in the world, so we beg for compassion.
August 11th, 2006 at 4:08 pm
A conscious human being is never completely helpless: at the very least he or she always has the choice of how to respond. Viktor Frankl said it, not me.
August 11th, 2006 at 4:19 pm
Stan
Its not like the guy killed the babies and is puting the blame on the Israelis
One, how do we know that? “Martyrdom” is their sales pitch.
Two, why evacuate civilians if dead civilians are your best weapon both in the news and on the battlefield? The Israelis give multiple heads up to Hizballah before every attack to avoid civilian casualties. They actually try to distinguish non-uniformed “soldiers” from “civilians.” But the fact is, non-uniformed soldiers are illegal combatants and could be executed on the spot per the Geneva Conventions. Hiding among civilians does not give anyone protection or everyone will hide among civilians.
Should Israel put Lebanese kids on the front of their tanks?
August 11th, 2006 at 4:23 pm
Yes, it is pornographic. I pointed this out to my ex-friend over at “The Truth Shall Set You Free.” I called her a pornographer.
The reason for this, is that they are happy when children die. They won’t admit it, but they are. Because it furthers their propogandistic purposes. That is the sad and brutal truth of it all. When Israelis die, it is a cause for celebration. But it is equally true that they cry crocodile tears when one of theirs die. They don’t really care about their children, because if they did, they wouldn’t tell them that Shahid is the most honorable thing in the world. They wouldn’t preach hatred in the way they do. That is the worst form of child abuse one can inflict.
If they really were upset when someone dies from an Israeli attack, they would show it by respecting the dead, and respecting life, and not using it for cynical propoganda.
August 11th, 2006 at 4:29 pm
Oh, and my grandma had a degree in sexual psychotherapy. You would be surprised what some grandmas are like. Damn I miss her.
August 11th, 2006 at 4:38 pm
Chip, I will ignore your cliche-like answer.
As for your question:
“Should Israel put Lebanese kids on the front of their tanks?”
Apparently they do.
Here is a small paragraph from B’tselem report on IDF incident in Beit Hanun:
After seizing control of the buildings, the soldiers held six residents, two of them minors, on the staircases of the two buildings, at the entrance to rooms in which the soldiers positioned themselves, for some twelve hours. During this time, there were intense exchanges of gunfire between the soldiers and armed Palestinians. The soldiers also demanded that one of the occupants walk in front of them during a search of all the apartments in one of the buildings, after which they released her.
Full report is found here:
http://www.btselem.org/english/Human_Shields/20060720_Human_Shields_in_Beit_Hanun.asp
I I know that Amnesty and HRW are anti-semitic Islamo fascist organizations. So I hope that B’tselem is reliable enough for you.
August 11th, 2006 at 4:39 pm
I wonder how many lives would have been saved if hezbollah could not use dead children and “civilians” as propaganda material. Their fighting tactics would have to be completely different.
How many lives would have been saved if the world media refused to act as a willing propaganda helper?
And how many lives would have been saved if UN diplomats would not act because of propaganda images, but because of reasonable political considerations?
August 11th, 2006 at 4:42 pm
What I want to know is, how did those children whose corpses were being used as photographic props at Qana actually die? What did they really die of?
Did you see the story of the child in Gaza who died from falling off a swing, and was then photographed in somebody’s arms as a victim of an Israeli attack?
Did any children at all die at Qana?
How many civilians have really died in Lebanon? How many Hezb’allah fighters have died?
Throughout history, the numbers of warriors dying in battles have always been greatly exaggerated.
August 11th, 2006 at 4:42 pm
Is this why some people call Islam the death cult? Just asking.
August 11th, 2006 at 4:45 pm
“So as not to be misunderstood, I totally support Hezb Allah. What I meant was, we have no political influence whatsoever in the world, so we beg for compassion”
Maybe the next bomb will land on your head:)
If you want compassion you should stop attacking other countries and act like a civilized human being.
August 11th, 2006 at 4:46 pm
“I beleive this is the only thing a hopeless nation can do. We have nothing in our hands to do, we are desperate for help.”
But Hezb’allah and Iran are not “hopeless nations”. They are very well equipped and formidable fighting forces.
August 11th, 2006 at 4:47 pm
#22 Some guy using my name
Chip, I will ignore your cliche-like answer.
I’ll ignore you completely. That’s the answer of someone who can’t answer.
August 11th, 2006 at 4:56 pm
So, in order to get the international world opinion behind your case, you just go to a childrens hospital,.. open the fridges… get out the corpses,… put them in rubble,… let the press make pictures of them,… no matter to exploit and abuse the bodies of the little children,.. it’s for the greater cause, no? And,.. wooopppah,.. the international community is outrageous at your enemy,.. how dare you to kill children just like that?
What I wrote above is a [b]hypothetical[/b] situation, but not unthinkable. The media should be REALLY careful and investigate what has going on before they just send pictures and stories for the public. The media is there to show reality, not propaganda. Especially in times of war the media should be more careful.
It is good that the bloggers and the German press (no Israeli conspiracy here) found out about the exploitation of dead bodies “green helmet” - but what is next,.. the whole scene had been staged? Qana II never happened? Who knows now what is real and what is not? How can we be so sure that what we see is real? It is scary that these questions come up, but I can’t help it.
To be honest,.. all this manipulation and staging stuff makes every news item coming from Lebanon less sincere, and I trust those news reports less.
Is that what those propagandists want?
August 11th, 2006 at 4:58 pm
I wonder:
1. It’s expoloitation of the dead. Wonder how much these photographers and film crews were paid?
2. No doubt false intelligence was to blame for the tragedy. I wonder who provided the intelligence that HA was hiding in the building?
3. It is well known that HA has an extensive network of bunkers and tunnels, some of which are air-conditioned. I wonder, why aren’t civilians using the bomb-shelters while HA is fighting? Why is it the wrong way around?
August 11th, 2006 at 5:00 pm
Sandmonkey,
Beautiful, moving writing. I had tears and I chose not to view the photographs. Respect for the dead - indeed, yes.
And I love your grandmother!
Speaking of Hezbollah - has anyone heard about Iran’s threat(?) of a final answer regarding their nuclear program coming up on August 22nd? Isn’t this why this whole war started in the first place? (To cover up Iran’s refusal to comply with the UN) Remember?
“Should the United States and Israel be on high alert? Two weeks from today, President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has implied that he will give his final answer to the U.S. about his country’s nuclear program by August 22nd.
Now, August 22nd also has great significance on the Islamic calendar. It’s a day when Muslims believe that Prophet Muhammad road a winged horse, first to Jerusalem and then to Heaven and back.”
August 11th, 2006 at 5:04 pm
Hmmmm?
August 11th, 2006 at 5:07 pm
“I wonder how many lives would have been saved if hezbollah could not use dead children and “civilians” as propaganda material. Their fighting tactics would have to be completely different.
How many lives would have been saved if the world media refused to act as a willing propaganda helper?
And how many lives would have been saved if UN diplomats would not act because of propaganda images, but because of reasonable political considerations?”
Along a similar vein Chris - How many lives would have been saved if Hizb Allah had been disarmed in accordance with UNR 1559? Oh that’s right - over 1000.
August 11th, 2006 at 5:11 pm
@Bec, the ironic thing is that Jerusalem is not mentioned in the Quran, nor that it was any important; untill it became politically. A mosque was built where the jewish temple was, and it was called the furthest mosque; referring to a passage in the Quran:
[17:1] Most glorified is the One who summoned His servant (Muhammad) during the night, from the Sacred Masjid (of Mecca) to the farthest place of prostration, whose surroundings we have blessed, in order to show him some of our signs. He is the Hearer, the Seer.
August 11th, 2006 at 5:14 pm
@Chip, i dont think it is a bad thing to call for an investigation into this matter.
August 11th, 2006 at 5:16 pm
Anyway, whatever had happened and however those children found their death - I just hope these children have found their eventually rest. I feel sorry for them. Not only to have died at this young age, but also being abused this way.
August 11th, 2006 at 5:31 pm
If it was my children or nieces or nephews, I would mourn their deaths and wouldn’t have any time to show their corpse to the media. I would be selfish. I would hold them close and not show them to anyone.
http://peatbog.net/wp-content/uploads/2005/12/In%20His%20Arms.jpg
August 11th, 2006 at 5:34 pm
#35 Suzanne
If you mean the Isreali incident, of course there will be an exhaustive investigation with countless media reports detailing every rumor and innuendo. If Hizballah kills civilians on purpose that’s just what they do.
August 11th, 2006 at 5:34 pm
Why do the e and a in Israel switch seemingly on their own?
August 11th, 2006 at 5:40 pm
@Bec, the ironic thing is that Jerusalem is not mentioned in the Quran
Is this accurate? I have a lot to learn!
Although the Koran does not mention the name “Jerusalem”, Islamic tradition holds that it was from Jerusalem that the Prophet Muhammad ascended to heaven in the Night Journey, or Isra. The city was one of the Arab empire’s first conquests in 638 AD; according to Arab historians of the time, the Caliph Umar ibn al-Khattab personally went to the city to receive its submission, cleaning out and praying at the Temple Mount in the process. Sixty years later, the Dome of the Rock was built, a structure in which there lies the stone where Muhammad is said to have tethered his mount Buraq during the Isra. This is also reputed to be the place where Abraham went to sacrifice his son (Isaac in the Jewish tradition, Ishmael in the Muslim one.) Note that the octagonal and gold-sheeted Dome is not the same thing as the Al-Aqsa Mosque beside it, which was built more than three centuries later.
August 11th, 2006 at 5:44 pm
Oh noooo. I hope I didn’t just create an attack of the italics! Sorry!
August 11th, 2006 at 5:46 pm
Qana is the tip of the iceberg by the way.
The wire services are faking so much news it’s almost hard to believe, almost. I’ve seen it for years, but I have a nose for this sort of thing.
August 11th, 2006 at 6:20 pm
Arab media shows more dead people than the American media. I think it’s all part of the spin. “Look at the evil baby killers!” And then say the report is objective. They don’t show dead Israeli babies or dead Americans like they do dead Arabs. It envokes sympathy. It makes the report emotionally moving for the readers, they get a personal connection and say “that is somebody like my little girl/brother/etc” and want to read more and see more of the conflict because it is relatable to them. It’s very sad, I don’t like seeing those pictures, it brings back memories from when I was younger of things like that. They should at least have a policy like in the US where you don’t show faces of dead bodies. I think it is very disrespectful, especially if you falsify or misrepresent the context (like little Mohammed ad-Dura). It just makes people angry and/or sad. That is war, but that doesn’t make it right to use little people to get ratings or just to piss people off for them.
August 11th, 2006 at 6:21 pm
Sand Monkey,
Basically…
well done.
Great post. Great points.
If we scream so much about how this war is about “dignity” and “honour”, the pornographic use of corpses strips us of any hope of honour and dignity.
August 11th, 2006 at 6:22 pm
@Bec, http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/TOPICI.HTM
August 11th, 2006 at 6:30 pm
Suzanne -
I see what you mean. There’s no topic for “Jerusalem”! And 111 lines for “Night Journey” which I couldn’t make out. Yikes.
August 11th, 2006 at 6:38 pm
@Bec, to make it more odd: it is highly doubtfull there was a mosque during Mohammeds life.
August 11th, 2006 at 6:38 pm
Haga Tikrif!! The Israeli PM gave a speech and mentioned this stuff in it, and actually used the Arab media’s stupidity to his advatage….Wallahey we are the biggest Himir….Som3itna zay elzift everywhere!!
if you wanna see the ISraeli PM’s speech where he plays on the arab medias gruesome pictures, go here
http://www.modernpharaoh.blogspot.com
August 11th, 2006 at 6:39 pm
In Jerusalem I mean
August 11th, 2006 at 6:41 pm
ask yourself this…
(if HB and the rest of the World’s media is in a frenzy to show the faces of dead childred and we’re being told at least 30 children died at Qana:)
How come all the recent Qana photos are of the same 3-5 dead children? Doesnt that make you wonder?
August 11th, 2006 at 6:52 pm
This is probably the best summary, updated frequently.
August 11th, 2006 at 6:55 pm
Modern Pharaoh,
Thanks for the video very good one indeed on your blog. Keep blogging.
August 11th, 2006 at 6:55 pm
“So as not to be misunderstood, I totally support Hezb Allah. What I meant was, we have no political influence whatsoever in the world, so we beg for compassion.”
Oh really? Was it compasion that led Samir Kuntar to bash in the head of a 4 yr old girl? He is one of the “resistance” fighters that HizbAllah want’s released. There are some HizbAllah supporters that claim the Hanan’s (the father and daughter that were killed) were legitimate targets and that Kuntar is a political prisoner. Tell me, how exactly is a 4 year old a ‘legitimate target’?
August 11th, 2006 at 7:07 pm
Thanks for the video of that giant idiot, Modern Pharaoh. I guess that guy thinks that Samir Kuntar is a war hero.
August 11th, 2006 at 7:13 pm
#48 Modern Pharoah
You need a new propaganda film. Israel has withdrawn from “territories” occupied in 1967. If you knew anything about 242 you’d know that Israel’s legitimate security interest in not getting overwhelmed by its violent and giant Arab neighbors were a factor to many of the nations which drafted the resolution. It was never an all-or-nothing resolution.
By the way, when will Cristendom get back the 2/3’s conquered by Muslims in the Seventh and Eighth Centuries? Just a rhetorical question.
But, hey, Arab-Muslims once conqured Israel so you should fight until the end of time to get it back. That’s what the books and beards say. Good thing the British don’t have your attitude, cuz the way the world is going I’d probably try to join their army.
August 11th, 2006 at 7:28 pm
“By the way, when will Cristendom get back the 2/3’s conquered by Muslims in the Seventh and Eighth Centuries?”
.. or Greece get back Turkey and Persia (Iran)?
.. or Mexico get back Texas?
.. or the US get back Cuba and the Philippines?
.. or the Iroquoi get back New England and upstate New York?
.. or the Aztecs get back Mexico?
.. or the Inca’s get back Ecuador, Bolivia, Argentina, Peru and Columbia?
.. or Spain get back most of the above?
….
August 11th, 2006 at 7:29 pm
This stuff never ends.
It’s so obvious because the toys are right out of the bag on piles of rubble filled with dust. In the future they’ll smear the toys with dust.
August 11th, 2006 at 7:33 pm
That moved me to tears. Thankyou, thankyou
August 11th, 2006 at 7:52 pm
Dan Irving #56
Watch out. My first post here made this very point and I was immediately clobbered for it and accused of hiding the Native American Holocaust. After which I told said person that I was Native American myself and then he told me I was brainwashed… Hmm. Come to think of it, I believe that was Cadavre. Nevermind…
Modern Pharoah - that MySpace blog you linked to was a nut! Of course it was all in red with tiny black print, so maybe I was missing something???
August 11th, 2006 at 7:53 pm
“post” sorry! “comment”
August 11th, 2006 at 7:57 pm
That’s disgusting. It’s disgusting that it happened at all, and it’s disgusting to pose the bodies for the camera like that.
But one thing about the western media not showing bodies - I think that that’s as much done for the sake of propaganda as out of respect. I think it’s done to get people to support the ‘war on terrorism’, as we might realize that dead people look like dead people and not OMG ISLAMIC FASCISTS!!!1
From experience, American news (and history classes, etc.) is all very sanitized.
August 11th, 2006 at 8:00 pm
Bec,
Heh - I was trolled by Cadavre my first post here also. For a corpse he/she/it sure is pretty animated.
August 11th, 2006 at 8:00 pm
> And watching that made me wonder. Don’t we have, in our culture, in our
> religion, the concept of the sanctity of the dead (7ormat el Mowt)?
Brilliant.
Really an interesting attempt - oh my dear house nigger - to blame
the death - murdered by the brethren of the zionazi crowd here - and
the survivors for exposing their nazi-ethics.
When the jews are showing and posing with their death - slaugh-
tered in the 40’s - 365 days per year, that’s a must!
But to show the ones, that these jews slaughtered yesterday -
that’s a violation of your - well - what?
You’re not only an average house nigger - you’re a filthy hyena.
August 11th, 2006 at 8:03 pm
SM,
The problem extends far beyond the painful issue of treatment of the dead. It extends to the very credibility of these war reports.. They now lack an inherent trustworthiness.
August 11th, 2006 at 8:10 pm
Kyla,
The lack of corpses on TV in America didn’t start with the “War on Terror”. It is a long standing standard to respect the dead, who cannot give their consent to be shown on TV.
Imagine if you were the mother of a child morbidly displayed for others’ viewing “pleasure”. Imagine if that were your loved one goulishly held up for public display like that. You wouldn’t want it. And so, American media doesn’t show corpses for that reason too - respect for the living.
It would be nice if Arab media respected Arabs as well.
August 11th, 2006 at 8:28 pm
Dan Irving -
(Claps hand over mouth) Oh, shoot. I think I just brought eee into this. I think he/she and Cadavre might be related. Shhh.
August 11th, 2006 at 8:56 pm
Klya stated:
“But one thing about the western media not showing bodies - I think that that’s as much done for the sake of propaganda as out of respect. I think it’s done to get people to support the ‘war on terrorism’, as we might realize that dead people look like dead people and not OMG ISLAMIC FASCISTS!!!1
From experience, American news (and history classes, etc.) is all very sanitized.”
Yes, it is, but as anonon in #65 pointed out, not because of propaganda. Years ago between undergrad and grad schools, I worked for a bit over a year as a newspaper wire-editor and proofer. One of the cardinal rules at our publishing house was no photos of the dead. Ever. I nearly got fired early on because I let a photo of a private plane crash run that still had the body of the passenger in the plane. You could barely see it, and what you could see was hard to identify as human remains, but it was there. I had a LONG chewing out by the editor in chief over this, and only kept the job because of my lack of experience as a mitigating circumstance.
August 11th, 2006 at 9:07 pm
Arab criticism of Hizballah has mostly been silenced by the endless loop of staged horror-fests. These pornographic scenes are katyusha rockets fired point blank at the rationality and realism of Arab moderates in an attempt to destroy that rationality. Western media are exploited as a reliable, believable vehicle for these scenes.
Nobody can watch this stuff without becoming enraged and full of hate, and therefore easy for Hizballah and others to manipulate. After a few loops of this, people are ready to accept any action Hizballah takes as “resistance”, even if it is deliberately targeting a hospital in Haifa.
Whether in peace or in wartime, showing such carnage (and even showing it to kids!) is intensely destructive, leading to intense hatred and rage, even among people not directly involved in the conflict. One of the worst impacts is that it achieves what the extremists most want: the people who do not need to pay the price of the conflict adopt extremist, hate-filled positions that perpetuate the conflict and therefore perpetuate the power of the extremists.
Iran, Syria and Hizballah are declaring victory. Let’s not make any mistake here. They ARE winning — because their REAL enemy, the one that they are actually defeating, is the sanity of the Muslim world.
You’re not going to see the Israelis exploit the Arab mother and son who died the other day in this way, and if (Gd forbid) my Israeli Jewish cousins in Haifa die, you won’t see Israel exploit them like this. The truth is that the Israeli way of war tries wherever possible to minimize total casualties, period, but doesn’t always succeed. In contrast, the Iranian way of war (Remember how Iran fought Iraq? Remember the hundreds of thousands of Iranian civilians sent into the Iraqi mine fields? Remember Rafsanjani’s comment that a nuclear war with Israel would be acceptable because the Muslim world would survive the loss of several million Iranians? Now consider from which military Hizballah leaders learned warfare) is indiscriminate bloodshed coupled with media manipulation.
Sophisticated extremists have identified some weak points in the way news is reported in the modern world, and are exploiting these weaknesses in order to control the perceptions of billions of people.
I concur with your grandmother’s assessment at the end of your post.
August 11th, 2006 at 9:13 pm
Don Cox et all, 1800 murdered people were delivered to morgues in Baghdad
last month.That is in ONE MONTH !!
How many people have been killed in Lebanon during a war? sofar? both sides
added together? Talk about proportionality.
August 11th, 2006 at 9:14 pm
Howard, well said. Uchuck, thanks for the background. It’s one of those things U.S. citizens take for granted. We forget that others might not understand this respect. Uchuck, any idea when this first became media policy? I remember graphic pictures from the Old West and Civil War. Not much from WWI or II, though.
August 11th, 2006 at 9:21 pm
What about the sanctity of killing?
Has the ‘world gone wrong’ by the killed? This doesn’t make sense SM.
August 11th, 2006 at 9:22 pm
this blog is full of bigots, but when the author is himself a bigot, what else can we expect?
August 11th, 2006 at 9:27 pm
SM,
You quote your grandma? She’s probably too tired to carry a conversation on for much longer.
I mean, ‘the world has gone wrong’ is a statement we say in our societies to wrap up a conversation we are too tired to go on with.
August 11th, 2006 at 9:38 pm
Elwad Belya - you support a genocidal terrorist organization of raving barbarians bent on world domination and you demand compassion ?
How about a bullet in the head, instead?
Cheeky terrorist.
August 11th, 2006 at 9:40 pm
Who gives a shit if this was rehearsed so that people could get a better view. It’s important for the world to see the carnage being caused. Israeli media has no problem repeating footage of the aftermaths of suicide bombs in Israel do they? What’s the difference? The point is the same. There were still dozens of innocent civilians, mostly children, barbarically murdered by the IDF at Qana. These children are dead, they don’t care if they’re being used for the cameras. And honestly, it doesn’t make a difference.
August 11th, 2006 at 10:10 pm
@Mideastbeast, you don’t see dead people after a suicide bombing on telly in Israel.
And the way you put it is like if the IDF went there and killed every kid with a knife by cutting its throat.
Might be as well that these kids were human shield or even that the whole scene has been staged and that these kids died in some other way. Who is to blame? Who knows what Hezbollah’s PR men are up to?
But go ahead. Put your blindfold on. Continu believing that no pictures had been manipulated, no staging had been done even though more and more proof of this is available every day and that corpses of children have been exploited and abused.
August 11th, 2006 at 10:13 pm
“But one thing about the western media not showing bodies - I think that that’s as much done for the sake of propaganda as out of respect. I think it’s done to get people to support the ‘war on terrorism’, as we might realize that dead people look like dead people and not OMG ISLAMIC FASCISTS!!!”
That makes a lot of sense, considering how strongly the editorial pages of every major newspaper and folks like Dan Rather (CBS), Peter Jennings and Ted Koppel (ABC) and others have been supporting George W. Bush.
Wait, can’t really put my finger on it, but I think there may be something wrong with that last paragraph. Anyone care to pinpoint it for me?
August 11th, 2006 at 10:31 pm
mideastbeast you are absolutely incorrect! You may see pictures of the damage done to the building and the streets but you will NOT see bodies. If you know of a place that shows them please tell me where. Actually, never mind, my bullshit detector went off and I had to post.
August 11th, 2006 at 10:34 pm
Akiva,
LOL . Can we now add Mike Wallace to that distinguished list?
August 11th, 2006 at 10:56 pm
Mideastbeast,
I agree. It doesn’t matter that the families who lived in that building were reputed to have left, and that the women and children who were killed were told to go there by HA, who then proceeded to fire missles at Israeli civilian targets from that location in order to cynically provoke a response. It doesn’t matter that one of the photographers on the scene has been demonstrated to be a fraud, or that one of the principal rescuers has been caught on videotape manipulating bodies to maximize the propaganda value of the photos. It doesn’t matter that there are obvious inconsistencies between the appearances of the victims and the story of the building collapse.
The only thing that matters is that the Jews are evil zionazis bent on destroying all vestiges of Arab life (or is it Muslim life?) to maximize the profits of BushHitlerburtonChimpy and Wolfowitz’s Jew-infiltrated World Bank.
And anyone who can’t see this is a bigotted Zionist pig (or perhaps just a witless Crusader who has been brainwashed by the American Jew-controlled media).
I’m with you, Mideastbeast, every step of the way. Shoulder-to-shoulder.
Where’s that eee? I love that guy!
August 11th, 2006 at 11:10 pm
> It doesn’t matter that one of the photographers on the scene has been demonstrated to be a fraud …
Demonstrated to be a fraud?
Tell me - filthy asshole - how that was demonstrated?
And the zionazis owe their simplest and cheapest hasbara-
trick - repeat the same lie again and again - to?
Yes - Goebbels.
August 11th, 2006 at 11:18 pm
eee,… go filthy some other blog and let people discuss here in an adult way.
August 11th, 2006 at 11:19 pm
Suzanna, does it matter how these kids died? We know they were hit by IDF missiles. This was a shelter for two families. It was destroyed by the IDF. That is a death. The death was perpetrated by the IDF. The Israeli gov’t admitted it, which is why they called a 48 hour pause in airstrikes in the wake of it. Would they have done so had they not been responsible?
Watch CNN or FOX News cover suicide bombs and you definitely see people being wheeled into ambulances and women running around with blood all over their faces. What’s wrong with TV viewers being subject to reality- the horrors of war? I know its in your best interest to keep believing that war is beautiful and that the 600 dead Lebanese children either don’t exist or suffered painless deaths. Give me a break. Start living in the real world.
Brooklyn Jon, don’t insult my intelligence. This was no an act perpetrated by HA and it obviously was not an IDF attack on HA BECAUSE NOT A SINGLE HEZBOLLAH MEMBER WAS KILLED. If HA was hiding among these civilians and using them as human shields, you’d think at least one HA member would be among the dead. They’re not. So don’t give your bullshit propaganda that absolves Israel of any involvement in the bombs it drops.
August 11th, 2006 at 11:19 pm
Suzanne, if eee leaves so should 80% of the other commenters who filth up this blog with their own sick-minded denial propaganda. That goes for people on both sides.
August 11th, 2006 at 11:28 pm
[...] The controversy surrounding Qana Sandmonkey covers it [...]
August 11th, 2006 at 11:38 pm
ME beast,
And I know that there were no HA killed because…
Israel paused to investigate, stated that their intelligence was that there were no civilians in th building, and expressed regret for the deaths of civilians.
Like you, I grieve for the deaths of innocents. But to deny HA’s role in this, is to be blind, frankly. And to accept at face value the reports of fraudulent photojournalists is to be willfully blind.
August 11th, 2006 at 11:40 pm
> and let people discuss here in an adult way.
I am really Um Khalil!
August 11th, 2006 at 11:46 pm
And we know Adnan Hajj’s photos to be a fraud because Reuters was forced to admit it.
As for Reuters’ manipulation of photographic evidence, I refer you here: http://www.zombietime.com/reuters_photo_fraud/
As for “rescue workers” manipulating the scenes of carnage for optimal propaganda, I refer you here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vPAkc5CLgc
This doesn’t discount from the suffering of innocent Lebanese. Like all people of good will, I grieve for the suffering innocents on both sides. I feel terrible for the displacement and destruction on both sides.
But if my unwillingness to suspend my disbelief makes me a “filthy asshole,” so be it.
August 11th, 2006 at 11:52 pm
Mideastbeast: no-one can beat eeee
furthermore: it does not matter how many have been killed as each one of them is one too many. But it DOES matter HOW they have been killed. You are so sure the IDF is to blame for this whole scene, but how can you explain that the building collapsed about at least 7 hours after the bombing next to the building?
The staging of some people there in front of the photographers (of which there is video proof) makes the whole scene not thrustworthy. I am sorry.
Furthermore, I thought we were talking about Israeli press. I do not receive Fox News, by the way.
And last but not least: using civilians as human shields does not mean that you will become a victim yourself: after all,.. those civilians are your shields, no?
You hide near a building with your mobile rocket launchers, shoot some kathushas and off you go,.. hiding in some safe place. IDF bombs there where the shooting came from and woops,.. civillians deaths. That is what is meant with human shields.
August 11th, 2006 at 11:56 pm
“NOT A SINGLE HEZBOLLAH MEMBER WAS KILLED”
… and why is that? Oh that’s right - they were in the bomb shelters that should have been used to secure the women and children. They fire their missles, drive the launcher into the apartment where they know women and children are being housed, then scamper away like they nutless assmunchers that they are.
August 11th, 2006 at 11:59 pm
Well said, Suzanne!
The UN just passed its Resolution!
August 12th, 2006 at 12:02 am
Oh come on Dan, you have no basis for such an accusation.
August 12th, 2006 at 12:13 am
If you want to criticize news coverage and propoganda, there is plenty of examples from both sides. There has been 800+ lebanese killed of which 1/3 are children. There has been 100+ israelis killed most have been soldiers.
I don’t agree with disrespecting the dead. I don’t agree with shelling civilians (with Katyushias or with smart bombs) be it by Israel or Hizbollah. I think what both are doing is dispicable. But did it occur to your that the world needs to see what is going on? It is really easy to dismiss a war that is taking place if all you see is the rubble or the number of the dead. It is entirely different when you see the face of those who are dying. It is one thing to hear about children dying, and another feeling that overcomes you when you see their lifeless bodies. For those who are doubting how these people/kids died, I think you might want to look at what you are seeing closely. They are digging their bodies from under the rubble, not pulling them out of a morgue. (The person that made this claim is denying the truth in order to shield their conscience and justify their bigoted views)
I also recall seeing the body of an Israeli man killed by a rocket who’s wife was calling him on the cell phone, and his wife hysterical. They also showed the bloodied body of an dead israeli man on a stretcher.
I will give you an example that I hope you might understand:
In the period of 1915-1923, 1.5 million armenians were slaughtered by the turks (see http://www.armenian-genocide.org/). Worldwide, hardly anyone knows about it. Why? Because their pictures and stories were not published for the whole world to see. But the whole world knows about the Holocaust because the story of the victims was told and continues to be told. The pictures of bodies piled in graves were shown for all to see. Once you see the pictures, they are embedded in your conscience. You can’t deny it happened.
That is why I think it is important to see the pictures, to see the face of those being killed so that the conscience of the world can’t dismiss it. If you don’t agree with how the picture was taken - fine. Just don’t dismiss the content of the picture.
It is the killing that breeds hatred on both sides not the pictures that tell the story.
August 12th, 2006 at 12:14 am
eee,
Here’s a reference to HA using the UN as human shilelds: http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=37278180-a261-421d-84a9-7f94d5fc6d50
although, you can more authoritatively get it from the UN themselves, if you want. I believe I posted about this some time ago.
Here’s Jan Egeland talking about Hezbollah’s “cowardly blending”. From Al Jazeera. Jew-Controlled Media?
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/46DACF37-AD07-4D14-A4EA-9F9B1909DE5D.htm
As for whether there were rockets fired from Qana prompting the Israeli response, the IDF provides this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aur_DmTIw70. Local Lebanese volunteers have said no. Who to believe? I suppose that depends on ones own preconceived notions of believability. But after the Reuters photojournalism fiasco, I certainly wouldn’t give them any greater credence than the IDF.
August 12th, 2006 at 12:15 am
Not for that single event no .. but I can point to numerous reports of Hizb’Allah launching attacks from within cities, next to civilians, next to UN outposts, etc. I can point to reports of HA shooting civilians trying to leave the combat zones. I can point to reports of HA shooting at UNFIL.
I can point to sources ad nauseum. Will it matter?
August 12th, 2006 at 12:16 am
well .. it seems Jon posted some sources for me … thanks Jon!
August 12th, 2006 at 12:22 am
why doesnt Israel annex Marjayoun , with the consent of its inhabitants and the land toward the Israeli border. If the inhabitants dont want to lebanese anymore because of hezbollha, what can lebanon do? Israel can trade it for the sheeba farms
August 12th, 2006 at 12:24 am
Oddly enough Sam makes a pretty good argument pro-photo …
… the bodies of those US soldiers massacred at the Battle of the Buldge served to firm up American resolve.
… Photographs of Nagasaki and Hiroshima serve to remind us why a nuclear solution is a scary proposition.
Images are very powerful. A picture is worth a thousand words as they say. This is why it is so important for our media (any media), in order to preserve their 4th estate status, to remain as unbiased as possible. Anything less, whether staged or altered, is propoganda.
August 12th, 2006 at 12:30 am
by the way Sam, because of the photo doctoring, and the repeatedly innaccurate body counts in for example qana and then later in Hula, combined with the not so obvious news of the double retractions reducing the “real ” body count to 28 from 100, how is anyone to know how many lebanese died? This is a 300 to 400 percent reduction in reported versus perhaps real body counts. And if you are 17 and fighting for hezbollah, are you judged to be a child? How many of the “civilians are hezbollah? hezbollah does not wear tatoos or uniforms.
So I think it is reasonable that lebanese deaths are overstated by at least 100 percent. A french newspaper suggested that the dead children at Qana did not even die there. So my reasonable beleif is that the pictures are pure propaganda. But the “dead” victim in the New York Times photos was certainly counted as a civilian casualty.
its remarkable that the reduction of the body counts is very hard to find in the news services, but the overinflated initial counts with Siniora weeping are easy to find.
August 12th, 2006 at 12:47 am
“Oddly enough Sam makes a pretty good argument pro-photo …”
I would hope that the numerous photos of the Holocaust would be included in this list?
August 12th, 2006 at 12:51 am
Well .. he had already mentioned them .. I was just trying to find other examples of images that had significant impact.
August 12th, 2006 at 1:04 am
“historian Says:
August 12th, 2006 at 12:22 am
why doesnt Israel annex Marjayoun….Israel can trade it for the sheeba farms”
Historian - Israel cannot trade one lebanese land for another. That still constitutes occupation. The people in Marjayoun don’t support Hizbollah (many lebanese don’t) but they are not denouncing their lebanese identity…
The body count in Qana was reported at 60-70 but then reduced to 30+ confirmed and 10-20 missing and reported on all news stations. The reports from Hula were reversed within hours and reported on all news stations (bbc, Reuters, CNN,) anb by the lebanese prime minister.
I am not sure what you are using as reference for you 100,300 or 400% inflation fo death figures. Human watch groups have confirmed 800+ dead.
By children they specifically referred to those that are under 13 years old.
GET THIS CLEAR - The press is not ganging up on Israel. Maybe you want to check out Anderson Cooper going all over Israel to report on the rockets falling on the israeli civilians and reporting on the thousands of people living in shelters - as he should.
I do not condone what the photographer did, even if it was darker smoke that was in the altered picture. He did not add destruction or bodies to the picture, but nonetheless it does put a question mark on his work. Reuters pulled all pictures by that photographer, as they should.
Please let’s keep our discussion on the facts, no exaggerations
August 12th, 2006 at 1:09 am
SM, I disagree with you sometimes. Not this time. You appear to come from a line of intelligent and thoughtful people, and can see when someone is trying to pull wool over your eyes.
God bless your GM, and everyone who gave you the courage to think without being told what to think.
My hope is that this is infectious.
For Qana, again, killing kids is wrong, no matter who did it. As bad if not worse is then parading their bodies around, disrespecting them in death, in order to score PR points. That isn’t just wrong, its evil, no matter who does it.
Sorta like purposely going after civilians. Its wrong.
August 12th, 2006 at 1:26 am
Dan Irving, my apologies. I’ve been distracted by listening to the UN on C-SPAN. Lebanon votes tomorrow. Israel on Sunday.
Sam, I remember discussions about the Armenian Holocaust. You’re right. It still is hardly mentioned to this day… out of deference to modern day Turkey’s feelings, perhaps? Armenians had to fight tooth and nail to even get it accepted as truth.
August 12th, 2006 at 1:42 am
I’m sure many Lebanese of Armenian descent- and there are many- are feeling violated today by IDF rockets just as their ancestors were by Ottoman Turks.
August 12th, 2006 at 1:43 am
Bec,
Absolutely. Dead people don’t write history books.
But as Stalin would have pointed out, 1.5 million dead is a statistic.
One innocent child, wrongly killed, is a tragedy.
August 12th, 2006 at 1:54 am
Are there many Aremenians in Lebanon? I hadn’t heard about this. I visited the Armenian community in Jerusalem several times. Such an interesting and sad people.
August 12th, 2006 at 1:56 am
I also knew about the Armenian massacre. In fact Canadian filmaker Atom Egoyan produced the movie Ararat that dealt with that subject. Of course the film was not allowed in Turkey.
August 12th, 2006 at 2:16 am
#105
… as are the Armenian Israelis who take cover iin bomb shelters from hezbullah or hamas rockets.
Lets not forget who started the war, who is responsible for all these deaths, shall we? The blame for this war falls entirely upon hezbullah. You want to exact a kilogram of flesh for the destruction of Lebanon? They are the responsible party. Have at em.
August 12th, 2006 at 2:24 am
TO ALL -
I think we all know the reason for the pornographic showing of dead bodies…. perfected by the PLO and Hezbollah…..
THE FUTURE OF THE MIDDLE EAST -
Lebanon -
Moderate successful Sunni and Christians start leaving en masse again.
Hezbollah, Syria and Iranian agents slowly turn it into an Islamic War State.
Egypt - Jordan
Sunni populations become more and more emboldened by the “success” of Hezbollah. Mlore and more terrorist acts occur and the media becomes more and more virulently anti Israel, West and Islamist.
Israel -
Becomes more and more exposed to rocket attacks from Gaza and Lebanon. Israeli Arabs become more and more radical due to the increasing boldness of Islamist Hezbollah supporting parties. West Bank towns are targeted more and more by Islamists to place tunnels and rocket launchers and Christian towns bleed more and more people to emigration.
Iran - Syria
Become increasingly confident and bold after directly taking on the US and Israel and seeing them blink again. Syrian and Iranian agents gain more and more control over Lebanon with their superior and vast intelligence agencies in place in the police, secret service, army and government. More and more “moderate” leaders” become willing and unwilling accomplices to the growing radicalism.
FUTURE -
Arab populations gain more and more force and power in “moderate” states and at some point g-d forbid a major attack occurs in Israel…. joined with the Europe press and media Israel is forced to make a decision to open a major war or further be bled in the Arab/Muslim game of chicken.
What it comes down to is this - The Arab world doesn’t care (for the most part sadly) or is willing or unwilling accomplices in using their own civilivans for the cause… and the main objective of Hating Israel and killing Jews… because (as all Arab Muslims know) they are evil blood thirsty killers.
Israel is in a neighborhood, a humungous one, where they live in a small block and all their unsuccessful miserable neighbors only want to kill them and not live their own life.
THIS WIN FOR HEZBOLLAH HAS GUARANTEED FURTHER RADICALISM, WAR, DEATH, SADNESS AND TRAGEDY……
ONCE AGAIN —–
“Allahu Akhbar - Death to Israel - Inshallah - Rejoice pass out sweets”
G-d Is Great and his Messenger Mohammed rejoice!!
Mike
August 12th, 2006 at 2:28 am
Oh and the postcript -
We’ll be seeing Sandmonkey and Big Pharaoh with a new address a lot sooner than they thought… perhaps Lex or Brooklyn.
See ya soon!!
Allahu Akhbar!! Death to Israel…..
you know…. all that great stuff….
Oh and Peace and Love to our great Muslim messenger and modern day Saladdin warrior (hidingg in a bunker) Hannan Nasrallah.
Mike
August 12th, 2006 at 2:32 am
SM,
listen, Israel denied so many times it’s wrong doings, Israel is pissing on the whole world and America is supporting it! The same day the UN is discussing the UN resolution, Israel is expanding it’s operations in Lebanon.
I strongly recommend that Israel’s wrong doing are exposed to the whole world, Israel lies and aggression has to be stopped.
Go tell Teta Habibiti that Twosret is telling you, we better expose the pictures and show the whole world the truth maybe and only maybe it will save your grandchildren and great grandchildren the same kind of death.
August 12th, 2006 at 2:42 am
Jon: And thus the connection between Islamofacism and Marxism should be blindingly clear. I would hope? Same methods, different goal. Same school of thought basically. Instead of Statism, you use Islam.
The reason why we don’t usually show bodies is that we know of the emotional impact. Sometimes it is necessary to see a dead body, so that people understand that PEOPLE were killed, not just statistics. But its a fine line, Recall the rule of diminishing returns? One reason why dead bodies are so rarely shown is so that people do not become desensitized to them (and also so the news is readable by children as well.)
Indeed, what is pornographic about this is the posing and almost perverse voyuerism regarding death. No number of pictures is enough… gotta keep showing the dead kids and people, so that westerners are continually placated by the brutal and viscious things these fascists do.
See- as long as we keep seeing their dead, we have trouble not empathizing with them. But Israel has dignity and will not do this. Israel ain’t perfect by any measure, but she won’t stoop this low.
And saying these tactics are justifiable because of how helpless you have become is nonsense. It makes them more understandable, but it can never justify them. To justify them would mean, literally, to make things equal again. But this is apples and oranges– a blood feud. There is NO justice in a blood feud.
This is what God is doing- what man, in his arrogance is incabale of– meteing out justice. As an American, I can see in what ways we have paid in our own blood for the way we treated the Africans and the American Indian.
So, the question is, who pays the price for the millions killed by facists and communists? You think that you decide– that your blood feud with the Israelis and with other Arabs is justified because of what they did to you, but only God can decide that, not you. When you attack someone, he defends himself. If you try to kill him, he might just kill you instead.
But to spread lies? To abuse and exploit dead children? What price are you willing to pay for a few points? What do you think the price is for such wickedness? I don’t know. But as this backfires, and people discover a lot of the spin that the western media has been doing since the beginning of the communist era, their empathy will melt away. Then they will know you are human and will no longer care. Then what? What defense will you have against lasers, satelite weapons, mass driver cannons, neutron bombs? Did you ever think the west was using its full strength? Once people realise how evil these men have become, and how really, truly and fully they make themselves our enemies, then no amount of dead kids will put a wall between them and the weapons of the 21st century.
This has been called ’21st century assymetric warfare’. Yes, assymetric because the one side has as of yet declined to use its real weapons.
/end rant
August 12th, 2006 at 2:43 am
Don’t you know Israel is going to accept the U.N. resolution concerning an end to the war? What about “the party of G-d?”
You can stop your uninformed rant now.
August 12th, 2006 at 2:48 am
Israel will, because Israel is lawful. But Hezb’allah will only accept it if it benefits them.
August 12th, 2006 at 3:14 am
RiverCocytus,
Sorry, I wasn’t referring to what you wrote. You did not rant. You made sense.
August 12th, 2006 at 3:19 am
#113
You make an excellent point about the state of current warfare. Eventually, all this light weight talk about surgical strikes and how careful we must be of civilian casualties will fall away. The Islamofascists and their constituents will no longer be the recipients of warnings. These terrorists and the apologists for them have no idea what will hit them. And for decent people of all nationalities and religious affiliations it will be a global tradgedy. But not brought on by Israel!
And on this site - I have experienced that any defense of Israel will bring a charge from some of “zionazi” or “zionist bigot”. So for those so inclined - please don’t bother - you sicken me enough already
August 12th, 2006 at 3:19 am
RiverCocytus,
How lower Israel can stoop down to after killing those kids.
August 12th, 2006 at 3:20 am
Don’t you know Israel is going to accept the U.N. resolution concerning an end to the war? What about “the party of G-d?”
I’ll be keeping my fingers crossed, Karen.
This was just today, in case anyone forgets that they’re coming from the other direction, too.
August 12th, 2006 at 3:22 am
Oops. Did it again. Sorry.
August 12th, 2006 at 3:29 am
If the terrorist stopped killing, bombing, and terrorizing today, the war(s) are over.
If Israel and the free world stop today, the world is over.
There won’t be a cease fire- you can’t negotiate with terror and the 12th Imam. They have an end game they believe- Aug 22.
They won’t stop because the UN says so…never have, never will.
August 12th, 2006 at 3:31 am
Thanks Bec. Let us not forget that the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers AND the indiscriminate shelling of Israel from “the resistance” is what started this whole war.
August 12th, 2006 at 3:40 am
I mean the launching of rockets and firing of missiles.
August 12th, 2006 at 3:41 am
Yeah right dwainj, as if Israel complied to any of the resolutions of the UN against it’s actions!
And let us not forget about the kidnapping of the 10,000 Palestinians in the Israeli prisons including women and children, this is not about HizboAllah not state in it’s sane mind will bomb a whole country including thousands of innocent because of two soldiers, espcially that Israel acts are much worse of kidnapping and killing. The officials of Palestine that are kidnapped by Israel is by itself is an act of war.
It is very simplistic Karen to think this is about HizboAllah.
August 12th, 2006 at 3:45 am
dwainj,
Enjoy the long list:-
* 1955-1992:
* * Resolution 106: ” . . . ‘condemns’ Israel for Gaza raid”.
* * Resolution 111: ” . . . ‘condemns’ Israel for raid on Syria that killed fifty-six people”.
* * Resolution 127: ” . . . ‘recommends’ Israel suspends it’s ‘no-man’s zone’ in Jerusalem”.
* * Resolution 162: ” . . . ‘urges’ Israel to comply with UN decisions”.
* * Resolution 171: ” . . . determines flagrant violations’ by Israel in its attack on Syria”.
* * Resolution 228: ” . . . ‘censures’ Israel for its attack on Samu in the West Bank, then under Jordanian control”.
* * Resolution 237: ” . . . ‘urges’ Israel to allow return of new 1967 Palestinian refugees”.
* * Resolution 248: ” . . . ‘condemns’ Israel for its massive attack on Karameh in Jordan”.
* * Resolution 250: ” . . . ‘calls’ on Israel to refrain from holding military parade in Jerusalem”.
* * Resolution 251: ” . . . ‘deeply deplores’ Israeli military parade in Jerusalem in defiance of Resolution 250″.
* * Resolution 252: ” . . . ‘declares invalid’ Israel’s acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital”.
* * Resolution 256: ” . . . ‘condemns’ Israeli raids on Jordan as ‘flagrant violation”.
* * Resolution 259: ” . . . ‘deplores’ Israel’s refusal to accept UN mission to probe occupation”.
* * Resolution 262: ” . . . ‘condemns’ Israel for attack on Beirut airport”.
* * Resolution 265: ” . . . ‘condemns’ Israel for air attacks for Salt in Jordan”.
* * Resolution 267: ” . . . ‘censures’ Israel for administrative acts to change the status of Jerusalem”.
* *Resolution 270: ” . . . ‘condemns’ Israel for air attacks on villages in southern Lebanon”.
* * Resolution 271: ” . . . ‘condemns’ Israel’s failure to obey UN resolutions on Jerusalem”.
* * Resolution 279: ” . . . ‘demands’ withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon”.
* * Resolution 280: ” . . . ‘condemns’ Israeli’s attacks against Lebanon”.
* * Resolution 285: ” . . . ‘demands’ immediate Israeli withdrawal form Lebanon”.
* * Resolution 298: ” . . . ‘deplores’ Israel’s changing of the status of Jerusalem”.
* * Resolution 313: ” . . . ‘demands’ that Israel stop attacks against Lebanon”.
* * Resolution 316: ” . . . ‘condemns’ Israel for repeated attacks on Lebanon”.
* * Resolution 317: ” . . . ‘deplores’ Israel’s refusal to release Arabs abducted in Lebanon”.
* * Resolution 332: ” . . . ‘condemns’ Israel’s repeated attacks against Lebanon”.
* * Resolution 337: ” . . . ‘condemns’ Israel for violating Lebanon’s sovereignty”.
* * Resolution 347: ” . . . ‘condemns’ Israeli attacks on Lebanon”.
* * Resolution 425: ” . . . ‘calls’ on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon”.
* * Resolution 427: ” . . . ‘calls’ on Israel to complete its withdrawal from Lebanon.
* * Resolution 444: ” . . . ‘deplores’ Israel’s lack of cooperation with UN peacekeeping forces”.
* * Resolution 446: ” . . . ‘determines’ that Israeli settlements are a ’serious
* obstruction’ to peace and calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention”.
* * Resolution 450: ” . . . ‘calls’ on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon”.
* * Resolution 452: ” . . . ‘calls’ on Israel to cease building settlements in occupied territories”.
* * Resolution 465: ” . . . ‘deplores’ Israel’s settlements and asks all member
* states not to assist Israel’s settlements program”.
* * Resolution 467: ” . . . ’strongly deplores’ Israel’s military intervention in Lebanon”.
* * Resolution 468: ” . . . ‘calls’ on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of
* two Palestinian mayors and a judge and to facilitate their return”.
* * Resolution 469: ” . . . ’strongly deplores’ Israel’s failure to observe the
* council’s order not to deport Palestinians”.
* * Resolution 471: ” . . . ‘expresses deep concern’ at Israel’s failure to abide
* by the Fourth Geneva Convention”.
* * Resolution 476: ” . . . ‘reiterates’ that Israel’s claim to Jerusalem are ‘null and void’”.
* * Resolution 478: ” . . . ‘censures (Israel) in the strongest terms’ for its
* claim to Jerusalem in its ‘Basic Law’”.
* * Resolution 484: ” . . . ‘declares it imperative’ that Israel re-admit two deported
* Palestinian mayors”.
* * Resolution 487: ” . . . ’strongly condemns’ Israel for its attack on Iraq’s
* nuclear facility”.
* * Resolution 497: ” . . . ‘decides’ that Israel’s annexation of Syria’s Golan
* Heights is ‘null and void’ and demands that Israel rescinds its decision forthwith”.
* * Resolution 498: ” . . . ‘calls’ on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon”.
* * Resolution 501: ” . . . ‘calls’ on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops”.
* * Resolution 509: ” . . . ‘demands’ that Israel withdraw its forces forthwith and unconditionally from Lebanon”.
* * Resolution 515: ” . . . ‘demands’ that Israel lift its siege of Beirut and
* allow food supplies to be brought in”.
* * Resolution 517: ” . . . ‘censures’ Israel for failing to obey UN resolutions
* and demands that Israel withdraw its forces from Lebanon”.
* * Resolution 518: ” . . . ‘demands’ that Israel cooperate fully with UN forces in Lebanon”.
* * Resolution 520: ” . . . ‘condemns’ Israel’s attack into West Beirut”.
* * Resolution 573: ” . . . ‘condemns’ Israel ‘vigorously’ for bombing Tunisia
* in attack on PLO headquarters.
* * Resolution 587: ” . . . ‘takes note’ of previous calls on Israel to withdraw
* its forces from Lebanon and urges all parties to withdraw”.
* * Resolution 592: ” . . . ’strongly deplores’ the killing of Palestinian students
* at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops”.
* * Resolution 605: ” . . . ’strongly deplores’ Israel’s policies and practices
* denying the human rights of Palestinians.
* * Resolution 607: ” . . . ‘calls’ on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly
* requests it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention.
* * Resolution 608: ” . . . ‘deeply regrets’ that Israel has defied the United Nations and deported Palestinian civilians”.
* * Resolution 636: ” . . . ‘deeply regrets’ Israeli deportation of Palestinian civilians.
* * Resolution 641: ” . . . ‘deplores’ Israel’s continuing deportation of Palestinians.
* * Resolution 672: ” . . . ‘condemns’ Israel for violence against Palestinians
* at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount.
* * Resolution 673: ” . . . ‘deplores’ Israel’s refusal to cooperate with the United
* Nations.
* * Resolution 681: ” . . . ‘deplores’ Israel’s resumption of the deportation of
* Palestinians.
* * Resolution 694: ” . . . ‘deplores’ Israel’s deportation of Palestinians and
* calls on it to ensure their safe and immediate return.
* * Resolution 726: ” . . . ’strongly condemns’ Israel’s deportation of Palestinians.
* * Resolution 799: “. . . ’strongly condemns’ Israel’s deportation of 413 Palestinians
* and calls for there immediate return.
August 12th, 2006 at 3:54 am
Oh, there is that idiotic list you pull out every couple of months. As if the United Nations of dictatorships, theocracies and humans rights abusers is a moral authority on anything!!! Oh and where is the one about disarming Hezbollah which was ignored by poor Lebanon?! I believe it is 1559.
You and I both damn well know that this war isn’t just about 2 soldiers. It’s about Hezbollah firing rockets at Israel. It’s about a Nazi political power, Iran, trying to acquire nuclear weapons to realize their dream of a Judenrein Middle East. And it is about Israel weakening their militia, Hezbollah, the “party of G-d” from the “religion of peace” whose only reason for being is to attack Israel.
August 12th, 2006 at 3:59 am
And as for the Palestinians, their suicide bombers also consist of women and children, some of whom have been apprehended before committing mass murder. If the Palestians ever get their state IT shall be the first state founded by terrorists.
And the Palestian government official were arrested by Israel after the Palestinians kidnapped the Israeli soldier after digging a tunnel underneath Israel and attacking.
August 12th, 2006 at 4:00 am
List of UN resolution is idiotic
the list wasn’t posted for you it was to reply to someone else.
August 12th, 2006 at 4:00 am
Karen,
Thank you. Her list does nothing but highlight exactly why the UN is so illegitimate. She sounds like a delegate from the Durban conference most of the time anyway.
August 12th, 2006 at 4:04 am
Yeah well how many times have you dragged that list out?
Nicole,
You are right. She has a split personality. I really have never met anyone like it before!!
I wish Craig were still here. He was so knowedgeable and articulate when it came to debating with Twosret!!
August 12th, 2006 at 4:06 am
Yeah, the Durban Conference. A meeting of racists discussing racism, lol.
August 12th, 2006 at 4:09 am
Karen,
Well, you have been fair minded in your replies. I don’t know who Craig is as I’ve never participated here before yesterday. Keep the faith and never let these specious arguements have any weight.
August 12th, 2006 at 4:12 am
Thank you. I’ll try, but it is hard when you see what is true and real turned inside out and upside down. And when you know something is good and you see it vilified. And when you know something is pure evil and you see it legitimized.
August 12th, 2006 at 4:13 am
Karen,
I have tolerated your temper, insults, and I always converse with you as a human on personal level.
You don’t understand civilization and co-existance, we can disagree about our political views but we can still remain civil to each other on the human level. What you call split personality I call freedom.
I think I touched a nerve and I think I have given you enough benefit of the doubt, you are one more example of why we can’t exist with Zionists.
Very uncivilized indeed. Last comment to you and I really mean it this time.
August 12th, 2006 at 4:22 am
You are the uncivilized one. If you showed your true face to your friends in Toronto you wouldn’t have one left.
August 12th, 2006 at 4:26 am
“Oh, there is that idiotic list you pull out every couple of months.”
Karen and Twosret, you always sound like sisters who love each other but simply can’t agree. I hope it stays that way.
Twosret, I read this recently and thought it explained a lot.
Also, I’ve been really curious about this rumor going around over a statement made by Ahmadinejad that supposedly gives people the idea that he thinks the end of the world will begin on Aug 22. What is this all about, does anyone know? Most of the sources come from Fox News and right wing religious sites, so I hesitate to use them as links.
August 12th, 2006 at 4:31 am
You do not understand what co-existance means. You do not stab your friends in the back with a knife and then expect that they will forgive and forget. I have read what you have written on this board and you are very hateful sometimes. You demean the Holocaust by minimizing it and calling for debate about it. There are enough books written on the Holocaust. You seem to think that another book by someone like Ernst Zundel or David Duke phd (lol) might be needed. I also can be kind and nice while talking about childen or cooking, but I also have the freedom to point out when you are being hateful and bigoted about Jews or Israelis. Close your eyes to the crimes of the Palestinians and Hezbollah and their lies to gain the sympathy of the world and keep telling us how evil we are. You will achieve nothing by it. HYPOCRITE!!!!!!!!!!!
August 12th, 2006 at 4:36 am
I have no clue what this clown Ahmadinejad is saying didn’t hear it. I don’t watch Fox news never ever. Your link is not very reliable because you can edit so I don’t use it as reference.
Here are my refrences from my site and you are welcome to visit my blog, if you click on my name to hear different kind of news.
http://www.theolivetrees.addr.com/
I would highly recommend reading the late Edward Said.
Enjoy
August 12th, 2006 at 4:36 am
Karen,
Here’s hoping she actually doesn’t comment again. And be glad you can’t understand civilization and co-existence in the context in which she frames it.
And of course she can’t co-exist with Zionists. It’s hurled around here like its an insult. Belief in the right to one’s nation and peace with one’s neighbors doesn’t appear to be in the lexicon.
August 12th, 2006 at 4:42 am
Nick,
“Here’s hoping she actually doesn’t comment again.”
You seem to have a comprehension problem. I’m not replying to Karen only but I will be commenting on this blog, SM is too darling to me.
Oh and thanks for your open mind, broad vision, and excellent political debate and since you have been here only for two days and I have been here for two years, you can use the option of scroll down. Now I will give you the honor of the ignore button.
Shalom!
August 12th, 2006 at 4:45 am
She’ll comment again, like the sun will rise in the morning and set in the evening. She’s always here. She thinks she’s Sandmonkey’s first lady or something. And if you stick around long enough you’ll see that list again and again and again.
August 12th, 2006 at 4:45 am
Twosret,
It only took two days to see how rude you are to people who disagree with you.
August 12th, 2006 at 4:53 am
Bec, nice chatting with you.
Twosret signing off. Good night.
August 12th, 2006 at 4:58 am
MidEast War: 102
War News (Blogs & Opinion below) Defend itself but not disarm Hezbollah: Secretary Rice to Wolf Blitzer on the International Force: “it has a mandate that will allow it to defend itself and to defend that mandate. But it’s never…
August 12th, 2006 at 5:09 am
Karen,
I’ve been wondering… are you safe where you are? You aren’t in the U.S., too, are you? I can’t recall if I read if you were living in Israel or not. I’ve been worried about my brother-in-law’s folks over there, too. I will be so glad if Israel can pull out. I was shuddering to think what might happen if it had to go in there again. It would be like us going into Vietnam all over again, but they aren’t even our neighbors. Shudder.
August 12th, 2006 at 5:20 am
No Bec,
I am safe and sound in Canada. I used to spend every Sunday visiting family in the States though. I grew up in a border town. My mom is American and I have dual citizenship. I also want to let you know that Canadians are no nicer than Americans. Though they like to think so.
Also, I don’t think the U.S. would ever go back to Lebanon with what happened in the past. Don’t worry, Israel can fight her own battles and always has.
August 12th, 2006 at 5:35 am
Karen,
I’m relieved to hear that! BTW, my Mom is from the Soo so she grew up on this side of the border.
When I mentioned going into Lebanon, I had Israel in mind - not the U.S. I am feeling relief that Israel might not have to continue getting entrenched in there again. Here’s hoping, anyway.
August 12th, 2006 at 5:41 am
What about this SM?
http://www.bluestarpr.com/000164.php
August 12th, 2006 at 5:42 am
Hey what do you call this? ‘Sanctity of the dead’
http://www.bluestarpr.com/000164.php
August 12th, 2006 at 5:43 am
http://www.bluestarpr.com/000164.php
http://www.bluestarpr.com/000164.php
http://www.bluestarpr.com/000164.php
August 12th, 2006 at 5:49 am
clear -
Those folks are injured. Not dead.
August 12th, 2006 at 5:54 am
That isn’t the Israeli government or reputable media, is it, Clear?
There are always Israelis who copy the disgusting media tactics of the Palestinians, just as there are Palestinians who copy various aspects of Israeli behavior (both positive and negative).
I would be fine with providing brief biographical sketches of civilian victims of terror, in order to *humanize* those victims. I would NOT turn Israeli deaths into graphic blood-porn (which, by the way, DEhumanizes the victims) just because HAMAS or Hizballah does so.
While on that subject, I notice all the time that major news outfits such as the BBC and Reuters always provide background on the terrorist and the messages of the terror gangs, but almost never give even the names of the terror victims. The latter are left as anonymous statistics, while the messages of terrorist groups are broadcast.
August 12th, 2006 at 5:58 am
“TOM REGAN
Christian Science Monitor, 22 November 2004
Israeli Army to investigate ‘trophy photos’ of dead Palestinians.
In an article that “came as a shock” to many Israelis, the daily newspaper Yedioth Ahronot on Friday published an article that detailed allegations that Israeli soldiers had taken “trophy photos” and “abused” the bodies of dead Palestinians killed during army operations. The newspaper reported the practice has become widespread in the Israeli army, and happens in “almost in any place where clashes erupt between Israeli soldiers and Palestinian militants.”
In one case, soldiers posed for pictures with the head of a suicide bomber. In another, a Palestinian who was killed because he was basically in the wrong place at the wrong time became a running joke for members of one unit.
“Fire was opened at him from a heavy machinegun at military commands. After the soldiers reached the area they discovered a body without weapons or explosive belt.
“He’s an ordinary man who did not know where to go. The soldiers then tied the body to a military jeep that drove to the outpost, where cameras were taken out and pictures were taken, immortalizing the new ‘mascot’ of this combat unit. Since that time, soldiers call the body of this Palestinian ‘Haffi’, which is a word derived from two Hebrew words meaning innocent.”"
“ut in an editorial in the Israeli newspaper Ha’aretz, the editors point out that six months ago a group of demobilized Israeli soldiers had created an exhibit called “Breaking the Silence” where they presented their own testimony of severe brutality against Palestinian in Hebron. The chief of staff’s response at that time, Ha’aretz says, was to send military police to confiscate the material. The editors also say that anyone who says “it can’t happen here” is turning “a blind eye to what actually goes on in the territories.”"
August 12th, 2006 at 6:27 am
Samasem,
What was described in that article was wrong. OTOH, if it were the cultural norm, it wouldn’t be news.
I wish Arafat had accepted Barak’s offer in 2000. I wish HA had responded to Israel’s pullout with a similar overture. Same with Hamas.
Fighting and violence desensitizes you. It’s obviously bad for the Palestinians. It’s bad for the Israelis too.
August 12th, 2006 at 6:29 am
Clear,
It is entirely different to depict the injured, who can consent or object to their depiction, than it is to depict the deceased, who have no such capability.
August 12th, 2006 at 7:20 am
Oh my God you guys have serious problems. I would think it worse to depict people who are struggling with life-threatening and gruesome injuries than dead people who have nothing to lose by showing their pictures. There is no basis to believe that these people are consenting. My God, you have to love the double standard. Nearly dead injured people with blood all over them are not too gruesome to photograph if they’re Israeli but showing pictures of dead Lebanese kids is so barbaric. I doubt the dead people care. Probably because they can’t.
August 12th, 2006 at 7:40 am
Re: #125.
This list is NOT of BINDING Resolutions, but SOLELY NON-binding:
IOW, resolutions born solely of hatred for Israel & a Jewish state in
what Islamofascists consider holy Muslim territory. This is why Israel
is free to ignore them.
What Israel does NOT do it what the PLO et al do: Israel does not
ignore peace treaties she has signed (such as Oslo).
Bless you, SandMonkey - you now you are doing right when
hatemongers villify you.
August 12th, 2006 at 8:31 am
MideastBeast, the photos shown aren’t from any serious Israeli media outfit, for a reason- the serious outfits won’t use them.The only photos of wounded people I personally saw on serious media outlets are of people after medical care, allways accompanying interviews with those people or a piece on how they were wounded, and in all of them the composition showed they were published consentually.
August 12th, 2006 at 9:17 am
’sanctity of the dead’
http://www.bluestarpr.com/000164.php
http://www.bluestarpr.com/000164.php
Let’s hear you out now hypocrite SM…
August 12th, 2006 at 9:22 am
SM,
Have a look at this sample found in 2mins search. I hope your bias can now be addressed more concretely.
‘Israel Puts Graphic Suicide Bombing Video on Web’
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A3342-2004Feb1?language=printer
‘In pictures: Tel Aviv suicide bombing’
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=706841&contrassID=2
Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2006/Suicide%20bombing%20at%20Tel%20Aviv%20shawarma%20restaurant%2017-Apr-2006
‘Tel Aviv Suicide Bombing’
http://worldnews.about.com/od/worldinpicture1/ig/World-News-Photos/Tel-Aviv-Suicide-Bombing.htm
August 12th, 2006 at 9:33 am
Sam, (#93), if you refer to my post in #29 I stated that it was a hypothetical situation. Let’s make this clear.
August 12th, 2006 at 9:40 am
Twosret, it is interesting to note the difference- the number of photos with dead/injured people in them is minimal, and most of those are marked as taken either by Reuters or by AP,the overwhelming majority are either from the funerals or show general destruction.All the rescue workers and bomb squad people don’t even glance at the camera as they’re too intent on their work, and all bodies are in bodybags.
A bit different then the Qana shots, no?
August 12th, 2006 at 9:50 am
AntonGarou,
This is a sample done in under a 2min search. There was a charred bus on display in the Hague at the time the ICJ was deliberating the ’seperation wall’ in the West Bank.
Further, it is the principle - you either have sanctity for the dead, or you dont (you cant have ‘half’ sanctity for the dead my friend). Since Israel does show such images, it cannot claim to have this sanctity.
SM, your take on this? I was hoping you’d trouble yourself to search for such images on the web while you were searching for videos the indict the other side too. It tells us all a lot about your objectivity.
August 12th, 2006 at 9:56 am
lol tworset, there were no dead people in that wrecked bus when it was standing in The Hague. It was completely cleaned.
August 12th, 2006 at 12:01 pm
Twos,
Notice that there is not one single uincovered dead body in any of the links you provided. That was SM’s point. While the images are graphic, they are not goulish depictions of the dead. You’re grasping at straws.
As BrooklynJon says, the living can consent (or not) to showing themselves in photos and the dead cannot. This is why we never show photos of the dead.
And in any case, it is barbaric. If someone else has no problem with that barbaric act, why should you corrupt yourself with it. If the Israelis ate their young, would the Arabs do it too so as not to be outdone by the Israelis?
I believe SM’s point is that it’s not respectful - full stop. I don’t think he ment it as a contest of virtue between the Israelis and Arabs.
August 12th, 2006 at 12:36 pm
Anton, anonon et all,
Someone keep using my name and changing one letter only to cause confusion, I have not posted anything after comment # 143, I will make sure that SM will delete the other posts. This is not the first time this happens.
When people disagree with me they have to resort to cheap and low tactics.
August 12th, 2006 at 12:37 pm
historian,
I see what you’re saying but you have some gaping inaccuracies.
“So I think it is reasonable that lebanese deaths are overstated by at least 100 percent.”
If something is reduced by 100%, it would mean that it is reduced to zero - so there are NO dead. That would be impossible. Similarly, a reduction of 300% is impossible because it implies that not only did no-one die but that new people are popping up out of thin air.
Further, initial estimates of the dead are always inaccurate counts. You estimate how many people were likely there and that serves as your maximum probabl dead (”as many as X number of caualties” - sound familiar?). Not all of the estimated will die, thus the number is altered as the dead are actually accounted for. Combine that with the number missing and the number of dead changes for quite some time.
August 12th, 2006 at 1:15 pm
Mideast beast,
And the article of Tom Regan from Christian science monitor is even worse, but it goes over their head because of the same double standard.
Oh Well! you know our cousins are very good at that, that is why despite my strong belief before that those pictures are very hard to view, it is time to put it out for the world to see the truth about Israel aggression, because the very next day they will deny it.
August 12th, 2006 at 1:51 pm
Okay, twos. Sorry that you’ve been hi-jacked.
“When people disagree with me they have to resort to cheap and low tactics.”
who specifically?
August 12th, 2006 at 2:16 pm
Don’t worry about it anonon, no need to feed the trolls.
August 12th, 2006 at 2:17 pm
twos,
yup.
August 12th, 2006 at 3:21 pm
Bec #70:
Sorry it has taken me so long to reply, especially when the reply is: “I have no idea.” I would hazard a guess that it began as part and parcel of the demise of Yellow Journalism during the Progressive Era, but it would be only a guess.
August 12th, 2006 at 4:20 pm
There is a difference between photographing the gruesome consequences of war, including dead bodies, and staging scenes. There is an obvious difference between a photographer accurately and in good faith depicting carnage in order to convey THE TRUTH to the wider world, and using dead bodies as props, such as trundling a dead body on and off an ambulance to create more and better photo ops.
That said, Jewish law is extremely particular about showing dead bodies, especially disfigured ones, after death. This is a very serious issue. The mourner is enjoined to remember the loved one as he or she was in life. If a Jewish or Israeli website continues to post gruesome photographs, however newsworthy, they should take them down once the newsworthiness has past since it encourages people to violate this law.
Sam: the worst blog I saw was not an Arab one but a supposed friend of the Palestinians, who actually posted a picture of a 7-months old fetus on his blog. This was so beneath contempt I had to stop reading his blog. With friends like him the Palestinians really don’t need enemies.
Also, it would be interesting to see if there is a Muslim cognate to this Jewish law cited above. Islamic and Jewish burial practices are very similar so I would not be surprised. There is little doubt in my mind that using bodies in such a fashion constitutes a serious violation of Islamic law, but I am no expert on this subject.
August 12th, 2006 at 4:26 pm
You know, Twosret, it amazes me every time, the lengths to which you are willing to go to defend genocial murderers who would happily kill you. You use same old techniques - selective blindness, moral equivalence, sophistry, demagoguery - to support Hizballah or any other Islamist group bent on world domination and genocide. In doing so, you compromise your intellectual and moral integrity time and time again.
And what for? Should those whose causes you champion win, you and most everyone you know and cherish will be either dead or enslaved. So… why?
I am so perplexed by this conundrum that I decided to temporarily come out of my exile
August 12th, 2006 at 4:40 pm
Someone has is impersonating me and posting nasty posts. Please can you stop doing that, it’s juvenile. The following posts were NOT written by me:
clear Says:
August 11th, 2006 at 9:21 pm
What about the sanctity of killing?
Has the ‘world gone wrong’ by the killed? This doesn’t make sense SM.
clear Says:
August 11th, 2006 at 9:22 pm
this blog is full of bigots, but when the author is himself a bigot, what else can we expect?
clear Says:
August 11th, 2006 at 9:27 pm
SM,
You quote your grandma? She’s probably too tired to carry a conversation on for much longer.
I mean, ‘the world has gone wrong’ is a statement we say in our societies to wrap up a conversation we are too tired to go on with.
August 12th, 2006 at 4:43 pm
Again i didn’t post this either. why don’t you be a man and put your views forward.
Clear Says:
August 12th, 2006 at 5:41 am
What about this SM?
http://www.bluestarpr.com/000164.php
clear Says:
August 12th, 2006 at 5:42 am
Hey what do you call this? ‘Sanctity of the dead’
http://www.bluestarpr.com/000164.php
clear Says:
August 12th, 2006 at 5:43 am
http://www.bluestarpr.com/000164.php
http://www.bluestarpr.com/000164.php
http://www.bluestarpr.com/000164.php
August 12th, 2006 at 5:27 pm
to sam 102
the 100 200 300 percent is simply the reality ratio. And I refer to the internet resources. if you werent watching the news the day after qana and hula, and just used google you likely would not find out so quickly what the truth was. The tv media did report accurately and quickly.
hula reported all over the media: 40
reality 1
Qana all over the media: 57ish, reality 26ish
so if 27 dead out of 97 reported dead, the 97 is a 300 to 400 percent inflation in the originally reported to actual deaths.
human rights watch is not impartial, nor is is accurate. They claimed that the beach blow up in gaza had to be an israeli shell and was a war crime althogh the israelis denied shelling and no artillery fragments were ever found and the beach was cleaned up immediately afterward. Human rights watch gains KUDOs and a reason for being each time they can get in the spotlight. So I have no reason to beleive their counts either. They claim in American media to get their figures from Hezbollah, and Hezbollah threatens to kill reporters if they dont report what they are told, also at CNN. So rights watch reports Hezbollah figures
So I dont know what to beleive. There could be twice as many casualties. There could be half as many. My point is that we really dont know. How can anyone know?
But I also know tht Israel has dropped over a Nagasaki of TNT on Southern lebanon and has managed to hurt fewer people than are killed in Iraq in an average week with some sticks of dynamite. I have never seen so many munitions dropped to so little effect. Frankly I am surprised that so little infrastructure and human casualties have resulted. The infrastructure damage to Israel is likely much worse financially and the civilian casualties are less only because 500,000 Israelis are living in bomb shelters. Consider 4000 rockets overall. consider a 40% hit ratio. thats 1600 rockets. Average value of a hit is 200000. that is 200 times 16 milion or 3.2 billion dollars
By media, it is very lopsided. and I mean the internet and the press. I get this data by typing into google Hula or Qana and simply see how many stories report the inflated figures or the real figures. You can do this exercise yourself. If you get different data than I do, I will gladly apologize and say I am guilty of exaggeration
and my feeling about the war is simple, its stupid , there is no reason for it, and it will likely continue, and Lebanon should sign a peace treaty with israel and repect it and Israelis can stop getting into Lebanon and stay out and never have areson to do so. its been 60 years already.
So what happens if hezbollah gives up its missiles and starts crossing the border to kill israeli civilians as terrorists did in the 70’s. the 70’s and lebanon is an amazing number of horrors
August 12th, 2006 at 5:27 pm
Ok guys, I’m reporting abuse to SM, this is absolutely crazy.
August 12th, 2006 at 5:34 pm
Raccoon,
“it amazes me every time, the lengths to which you are willing to go to defend genocial murderers who would happily kill you. You use same old techniques - selective blindness, moral equivalence, sophistry, demagoguery - to support Hizballah or any other Islamist group bent on world domination and genocide.”
If this was written by you, show me one quote of where I posted that I defend genocial murderers, support HizbAllah. HUH?! I support no blood that is why I’m against your politicians, The whole world is voting against war and aggression.
What a cheap way to attack me back when I object to killing children and women and innocent civilians by claimming I support HizboAllah.
August 12th, 2006 at 5:40 pm
Dear house nigger!
please note - son of a bitch and owner of this pandemonium
of jewish fascists and amnesian barbarians: I’m not Um Khalil.
August 12th, 2006 at 5:49 pm
Clear,
We have stalkers
August 12th, 2006 at 5:56 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3Ts1EUsNWY
well, thr best way of arguing !
Hello Racoon
August 12th, 2006 at 6:21 pm
> Here’s a reference to HA using the UN as human shilelds:
A lie. The zionazi wehrmacht is equipped with the best - and most
precise - weapons money can buy. They could have hit Hizbollah-
fighters, if some were close to the base at that time - which is
extremely unlikely, after the hail of bombs and grenades earlier.
So the killing of the UNIFIL personnel was an deliberate attack
which matches quite well with the master race contempt for human
and international rights - unless the master race benefits.
Zero points.
> Here’s Jan Egeland talking about Hezbollah’s “cowardly blending”.
Egeland works for the UN, the organisation that jewish fascists like
as much as the red cross, HRW or amnesty.
Egeland carefully doctored his words just to please the master race.
Zero points.
> the IDF provides this video http://www,you,tubecom/watch?v=aur_DmTIw70.
The video - whose quality is laughable - shows that someone un-
known fires rockets from an unknown place at unknown time at
unknown targets.
It does no show, that rockets weere shot from one of the the
living-rooms of the house, that the zionazi wehrmacht brought
down in Kana - again with its hightech weapons from amnesia.
Zero points.
Why do you defend zio-nazism? Because you belong to the master
race too? Because you’re a simple stupid amnesian barbarian?
August 12th, 2006 at 6:48 pm
“I support no blood that is why I’m against your politicians, The whole world is voting against war and aggression.”
Hello Twosret,
I believe even the Israelis would rather support “no blood”. However, what choice do they have when war is brought to them? Who was it that kidnapped Israeli soldiers, killing others in the process? Who was it that launched rockets into Israel? What is the reason that Hezbollah even exists?
I’d be interested in hearing what you would have done.
August 12th, 2006 at 6:52 pm
Welcome back Raccoon!! So nice to hear from you again.
August 12th, 2006 at 7:00 pm
well, I didn’t really bother to read most of the 183 comments posted befor me. it is very possible that what I’m going to say has been said many times befor, but here goes:
israeli media does respect the sanctity of the dead, but that’s not the sole reason for our refusal to share our pain with the world. the last thing israel wants is to be seen as weak by the arab/muslim world. we rather lose potential diplomatic points and and not insert in the mind of our enemies that we are volnurable.
August 12th, 2006 at 7:48 pm
Nadav, your points are well made. The second part of it had not been made here before and makes perfect sense. These things always have a double edge, though, don’t they? Because of this Israelis might come across as unfeeling. On the other side, the Palestinians come across as weak, but they find power in this. Very complex interplay of posturing here. Thanks for pointing this out.
Hi Twosret! Enjoyed our chat last night, too.
clear and Twosret - I didn’t think those comments sounded like you. Clear, I didn’t call you an idiot last night after that post, because I thought maybe you were just tired.
#172 - Thanks, Uchuck. I was thinking along those lines, too. I did find this old link that illustrates the issue. Interesting to see that the “political” climate of the Katrina disaster was encouraging some to try to push for a showing of the dead. On the one hand, some might accuse the government of a coverup. However, the U.S. equally could have used photos of the dead from the Twin Towers to further its war on terror, but it knows that many in the public would accuse it of propaganda. I guess you could say it’s a cultural tradition and I, for one, am glad for it.
August 12th, 2006 at 8:07 pm
“Once you see the pictures, they are embedded in your conscience. You can’t deny it happened.”
Ah but further to that is once you see those pictures and learn they have been doctored/staged/manipulated whatever, you turn yourself off to being affected by them and doubt all future photos as being truthfully presented. It only takes a minor percentage of pictures being proven to be fraudulent for this to happen.
Net effect of successful propaganda campaign of dead children, is that in the future, certain parties will seek out dead children to win propaganda campaigns. Who knows what they do when their enemies don’t provide them with satisfactory photogenic dead bodies. Don’t tell me that men used to war are above killing or fascilitating the process.
You can doubt the veracity of Qana, of the photos of Qana or believe implicitly in that nothing but Israel was at fault. But at the same time you better recognize that the “rules” have changed here because of that. To do otherwise is to be in denial.
August 12th, 2006 at 8:11 pm
With regards to doctored/staged fauxtographs, please have a look and listen here:
http://www.aish.com/movies/PhotoFraud.asp
August 12th, 2006 at 8:15 pm
> Who was it that kidnapped Israeli soldiers, killing others in the process?
Tell me - oh dear kraut - how many lebanese the master race killed
in the last couple of years - or - let’s say in March 06?
Don’t you know about the veryrecent discovery of a terrorist brigade
in Lebanon, controlled and financed by the master race, that was
involved in several bombings?
Ever heard about lebanese, which were kidnapped by the master race
as “bargaining chips”?
And don’t you know, that these two brave soldiers were kidnapped IN
Lebanon - according to sources in Lebanon?
Finally I wonder why it’s left out all the time, that the reasoning behind
the “kidnapping” was to help the Pal. - of which the zionazi master race
killed appr. 170 in the last two months, completely ignored by our media
under zionist control.
August 12th, 2006 at 8:24 pm
“Starting in the mid-1970s, an Arab-Soviet-Third World bloc joined to form a pro-PLO lobby at the United Nations. This was particularly true in the General Assembly where these countries frequently voted together to pass resolutions attacking Israel and supporting the PLO.[11] An early example would be in 1975, soon after the award of permanent representative status to the PLO, at the instigation of the Arab states and the Soviet Bloc, the Assembly approved Resolution 3379, which equated Zionism and racism”
Why there is a disproportionate amount of UN resolutions. Also why Israel ignores them. Face it. You can drag out the list all you want. It was just another front in the Arab-Israel war. The Arabs lost this one.
August 12th, 2006 at 8:41 pm
What Ever Happend To 7ormat el Mowt?
I ask how have we allowed the Islamists to blind us to their destruction of our beliefs and to their ignorance of human decency. Dead babies as a prop?
August 12th, 2006 at 8:43 pm
“Zio-nazi Master Race”? Wow, who knew? Now I can goose step all over the place singing “Springtime For Olmert”, and polishing my jackboots. Thanks “stop”, for showing my my destiny. All this time I thought the “Master Race” was really the Saudis, you know, the real Muslims. Silly me.
August 12th, 2006 at 8:53 pm
stop.zio-nazism,
First of all, I’m American. How many Germans do you know named James? (Not that I have anything against Germans)
Second, from personal observation, I know that anti-Israel and anti-American bias are alive and well in Germany–albeit, a minority. You might want to be careful who you might alienate with your “well-informed” comments. In this case, the Nazis are your buddies.
As far as Israeli terrorism goes, I would be more than happy to know where you have your information from so that I can educate myself. I have heard that there were some involved in terrorism a few decades ago. I’m objective–but, you better make it believable.
Now you’ve got me sittin’ on pins and needles.
August 12th, 2006 at 9:04 pm
‘Green Helmet’ Exposed As Cynical ‘Movie Director’
Hezbollah is no friend to Muslims, only to the radical mullahs in Iran.
August 12th, 2006 at 9:05 pm
Oh yeah,
The Hezbos have gone through so much trouble to stage scenes for a more than willing WESTERN media (Reuters, AP, NYT). I’m sure that the WESTERN media would be more than willing to report about Israeli terrorists in Lebanon.
Hell, if you break the news, you might become as famous as Cindy Sheehan!
August 12th, 2006 at 9:13 pm
@stop zio.nazism, your ignorance is beyond imagination. I am amazed.
August 12th, 2006 at 9:18 pm
Twosret - the fact that you don’t see that you’re defending whichever terrorist organization trying to destroy Israel is even more perplexing.
I mean, you do your best to support their points of argument with any and all means at your disposal (even if these are logical fallacies or just sophistry). And you do your best to attempt to undermine ANYTHING that doesn’t paint Israel in the worst possible light, using the same means. The only thing you could do to defend the aforementioned terrorists better is direct violence. You really don’t see your actions as defense of these people? Don’t you see how you defend these terrorists by trying to take away Israel’s ability for self-defense when she is not only surrounded by genocidal maniacs but actually under direct attack by them? Why would you do that if you support no blood? I just… don’t understand.
I have no intention of fishing for quotes… sorry, time is brief, but I hope that the bit above clarifies my point.
This is exactly why I am puzzled - we apparently look at the same thing and see two completely different things. And I hope that you know I am not attacking you - I am just… perplexed and trying to understand
Thank you.
August 12th, 2006 at 9:21 pm
LOL@Raccoon …..*snoring*
August 12th, 2006 at 9:25 pm
Oh and you Raccoon support Hitler and too bad you don’t see you are doing this lol what a load of crap!
August 12th, 2006 at 9:25 pm
*blink*
While I am glad that you’re amused, your lack of an answer is somewhat disappointing. Oh well.
*shrug*
August 12th, 2006 at 9:30 pm
You do know that Hitler is dead, yes? Would be kind of silly of me to support him, I think
And you continue to avoid the uncomfortable questions.
Part of the reason I quit responding on blogs.
August 12th, 2006 at 9:31 pm
Now that I’m sure that it is you Hitler oops! I mean Raccoon heheheee I will reply to you in details later.
Not that your fur is not attractive enough to pull but, my time is limited at the moment. Glad to know you are the real one
August 12th, 2006 at 9:33 pm
Until then study the list of UN resolutions well and write to the UN and let them know that they are supporting terrorists too hahahahaha
August 12th, 2006 at 9:36 pm
James,
“As far as Israeli terrorism goes, I would be more than happy to know where you have your information from so that I can educate myself. I have heard that there were some involved in terrorism a few decades ago. I’m objective–but, you better make it believable.”
A state that is built on terrorism doesn’t stop it’s terrorists acts, you need to do some home work. Maybe later I can give you hints.
August 12th, 2006 at 9:42 pm
Twosret - amusingly, many in the UN do support terrorists. And many, many more support those who support terrorists. Jason has explained it pretty well.
And remember - the UN is a democratic body, most of the memebers of which are not, in fact, democracies. It’s an elaborate and dangerous joke on itself.
And do you prefer to attack Israel than answer me? If so, why?
August 12th, 2006 at 9:43 pm
Hi Raccoon,
I know that I’m new here, but I have asked similar questions of Twosret about 3 hours ago.
It seems you are correct–no answers for uncomfortable questions.
Twosret. What should Israel have done in response to the attacks from the Hezbos?
August 12th, 2006 at 9:51 pm
BTW, Israel’s response was far, far from perfect, mainly due to spineless leaders (Olmert and Peretz - nobody voted for the first one and the second one lied his way to the top, the Communist mafioso). It took the military four days to become ready to totally annihilate Hizballah; the government stupidly held them back, and still are. This war could have been over 3 weeks ago with Hizballah destroyed and half the casualties if not for the spineless half-assed measures and indicision on the part of the Israeli govenment.
I fully expect a vote of nonconfidence as soon as this crap blows over; and if Olmert agrees to the suicidal ceasefire conditions offered right now, I suspect a vote of nonconfidence in the coming week. Alternatively, I would not be surprised if a military coup would happen in such a case - most of the people would support it, and Halutz would finally be able to finish the job. The latter depends on the patriotism of the current IDF bigshots (they sure are crazy enough - especially Benni Gantz).
Today is a very, very important day.
August 12th, 2006 at 9:52 pm
“A state that is built on terrorism doesn’t stop it’s terrorists acts, you need to do some home work. Maybe later I can give you hints.”
A state built on terrorism? Oh come on. Just give me one very good hint. That shouldn’t take long.
If Israel hasn’t stopped its “terrorist ways”, then it should be a snap for you to provide some good examples. Hell, you’re the teacher–I’m sure you’ve got many sources saved on your harddrive.
August 12th, 2006 at 10:07 pm
Raccoon,
I just heard on German news that several of the Israeli ministers have indicated their support for the resolution. This will be seen as a victory for the Hezbos, and by extension, a victory for Iran.
Someone here has already pointed out that there will eventually be a point at which the West will lose its good will–then, we will see true carnage. The Islamofascists really do not want to open that can.
August 12th, 2006 at 10:13 pm
James - do you feel from the mood in Germany that it is possible? So far the world has preferred to slumber and largely ignore the danger.
August 12th, 2006 at 10:19 pm
When a world body spends 1/4 of its time under the thumb of the islamist bloc of OIC, denouncing Israel, and not actually, I dunno, making a positive difference where it needs to, well, that highlights a problem with the world body.
The KKK can produce lists of the evils that jews do twosret, it doesn’t make any more valid. Rather it shows precisely why this body has rendered itself illegitimate.
Worse, as there is photographic, and direct evidence of said world body colluding with known terrorists in hezbullah, there is nothing even approximating a moral high ground from which to argue.
Haul out the list twosret, be our guest. It only makes our arguments about the invalidity of that world bodies opinion stronger when it ignores real crisses as opposed to the manufactured ones.
August 12th, 2006 at 10:38 pm
Fascism and propaganda were not invented by zio-nazism.
The barbarians from amnesia have a similar and long history of mass-
murder and cover-up techniques:
Philippine-American War 1899-1913 (Wikipedia)
“American newspaper headlines announced the “Murder and Rapine” by the
“Fiendish Filipinos.” General “Fighting Joe” Wheeler insisted that it was
the Filipinos who had mutilated their own dead, murdered women and chil-
dren, and burned down villages, solely to discredit American soldiers. ”
No wonder, that the master race and the amnesian barbarians fell in love.
August 12th, 2006 at 10:53 pm
> I have heard that there were some involved in terrorism a few decades ago.
No problem. Scan the Internet for “Begin” and his statements concerning
terror and the value of non-jewish people.
If he reminds you of Hitler don’t be surprised and don’t forget, that this
straight fascist became PM in that chosen-people state. That he
allowed another massmurderer - Ariel Sharon - to conquer Lebanon in
198* - killing appr. 15.000 Lebanese - later PM too - including appr.
1000 palestinian refugees - by an allied christian fascist militia - in
Sabra/Shatila, which were betrayed by the US who were responsible
for their security.
To betray, expel and murder civilians and refugees - that’s kind of a
sport for the master race and their puppet or puppeteer in Washington.
And - sorry if I insulted you to be german, if that is not the case.
August 12th, 2006 at 11:30 pm
Raccoon,
I have sensed a shift, as small as it may be, because of certain events in Europe during the last year–France, Holland, England, Denmark…. I believe even the Germans and French would eventually wake up. The problem is that solving the problem will be that much uglier. Then the world may find out what military power we really have. I can imagine what it feels like to live in Europe during the 1930’s.
Sorry about the delay on the reply. I’m watching my favorite TV series “24″.
August 12th, 2006 at 11:53 pm
I can only highly commend Sandmonkey for approaching this problem from moral perspective. However, there is a practical motivation for that. I believe the Arab world is digging a trap for itself with their abuse of Western humanism. All this abuse of Holocaust can destroy Western humanitarian mentality. What then? Let me give you a hint - who in the mind of Mr Joe Average is committing all acts of terror while sitting on all the world oil? Trust me it is not “Hezbollah” or “Al-Quaeda” or “Jews”
August 13th, 2006 at 2:03 am
I believe the Russian poet Yevgeny Yevtushenko coined the phrase “Warnography” to describe this sort of event.
August 13th, 2006 at 6:52 am
In asymmetrical war, we can expect anything. In researching journalism during war, I learned they have always falsified information and exposed secrets. In the US Civil War, Gen. Grant considered any journalist a spy. It appears to be a universal.
Yes, making propaganda use of corpses is immoral, but all this attention is probably only going to make them try to do a better job of it. It plays into their hero role, “defenders of the Muslim people”. Some people assume we all believe everything we see and read, in other words, that we are stupid and easily manipulated, and that they are smarter, and can manipulate us. Some of us may be easily manipulated. But many of us have suspected falsification for a long time, and we are not really all that dumb. It’s been a long time since most of us felt something must be true just because it was published somewhere. Our MSM has trained us to look closer.
After all, anybody can say anything, and there are many motives other than simple honesty. Between staging and Photoshop, a picture can say anything. What else is most marketing? It’s interesting to see who believes what. A lot of people are being used, and believe what they want to believe. It’s not hard to convince someone of what he wishes to believe.
August 13th, 2006 at 7:34 am
To those who are on the “the pictures are manipulated band wagon” Ask yourself these questions:
Is the child in the picture in question dead?
How did he/she die?
The fact that the person in the green helmet brought the dead child out of the ambulance and had the reporter take a close up picture of the dead child does not “doctor” the death of the child. The person in the green helmet did not take a live person and have him/her pretend to be dead. He did not take one dead body and make several runs with it to exaggerate the number of the dead. Don’t try to trick your conscience into ignoring what you are seeing. You really saw a dead child. He/she was killed when a building collapsed over him/her. You cannot change that fact anymore than you can change the fact that Israeli civilians were killed by Hizbollah rockets. Lebanese and Israeli Civilians are being killed.
To Historian, regarding the accuracy in reporting of the numbers of the dead: Sometimes initial reports are inaccurate and it is important to correct them, which has taken place. This takes place frequently, regardless who the dead are.
When the attacks on WTC and Washington took place on 9/11, the intial estimates were around 7000 dead. Final numbers were closer to 3000. The fact that the number was reduced does not make the 3000 dead any less painful or tragic.
The confirmed 800+ dead are those that have been collected so far. I think you are going to see the number go up once the Red Cross is able to access all areas and go through the rubble. I think I am over the percentages for now.
August 13th, 2006 at 8:33 am
#208 Racoon
may-be it is Russians’fault too, their missils RPG-29 “Vampir”, seam to have a surprising effect !
http://www.armees.com/IMG/RPG-457×135.jpg
August 13th, 2006 at 8:36 am
http://www.armees.com/Tsahal-impute-aux-Malyutka-russes-ses-deboires-au,5967.html
better the link
August 13th, 2006 at 10:50 am
Nomad - militarily, Hizballah is simply no match for IDF. Sure, they can cause some casualties… but if they weren’t hiding behind civilians, IDF casulaties would have been exactly 8.
Hizballah has a few hundreds commandos (trained in Iran and well-equipped) who are actually good fighters. Then they have the grunts, who’re local morons trained in Lebanon and equipped with second-hand, poor quality equipment. These guys are cannon fodder - meant to die so that HA can claim IDF is killing civilians. There are a few thousand of these, and if they manage to kill a Jew, it’s by accident. And then there are the villagers: HA come to them, hand them a Grad-class rocket launcher, and give them the following choices: “either you shoot the missile at Israel when we tell you and get paid some money for it… or your family is dead. How about that, then?” There are lots and lots of these - people who are kind of HA ‘fighters’, but are more like subcontractors - they don’t fight, they just occasionally fire rockets and then die (claimed by the press to be “civilians”, of course).
So no, Nomad… from a military POV, HA cannot do anything to IDF except annoy mildly. But since IDF is using less than 3% of its might against HA…. utterly crushing the genocidal fucks in the meanwhile… sure, they might look like a formidable enemy.
Personally, I believe that IDF should have given South Lebanon 4 days to evacuate (explaining all the while that after 4 days SL will be destroyed). And on the 5th day, SL should have been softened with artillery and then Napalmed. The bunkers should have been fuelbombed and napalmed again. Only then IDF should have moved in to extract the remiaining HA from the bunkers, to gather intel and to prevent their return to SL. After the invasion, an ultimatum should have been offered to HA - they cease to exist, give up all of their arms, return the kidnapped soldiers and give up their leaders to be tried in Israel. Lack of compliance should have been met with another operation in the same vein, but into Baalbek, say. And so on and so forth.
Instead, jelly-spined Olmert chose to fuck around, losing lives and deterrence.
August 13th, 2006 at 11:20 am
Olmert seems to be an average leader as most of western nations have nowadays
August 13th, 2006 at 11:44 am
Nomad - exactly the problem. We need more Chirchills and Alexanders and Dayans. Hell, I would go for a Chenghis without thinking twice nowadays. But all we have are Chamberlains and Neros…
As was said by King David:
Tzvi Israel, al bamoteicha khalal
Eich naflu giborim!
(translation)
Might of Israel, on your heights lie your slain
How fell the heroes!
August 13th, 2006 at 11:46 am
…”Le régime islamique a demandé aux jeunes arabophones de la ville de Ahwaz d’aller se battre au Liban aux côtés du groupe terroriste du Hezbollah en échange d’une somme de 8 millions de tomans (5 ans de salaire d’un ouvrier). Selon les autorités, les volontaires arabophones passeraient inaperçus. les volontaires devaient auparavant faire un stage dans un camp des Gardiens de la révolution, en l’occurrence à l’école Navvab Safavi de Ahwaz.
Dans le même registre abracadabrantesque, le régime islamique avait proposé aux prisonniers de droit commun condamnés à de lourdes peines une amnistie en échange de leur « participation volontaire » aux combats au Sud Liban. Les conditions de vie dans les prisons iraniennes sont si exécrables que 400 d’entre eux auraient préféré risquer la mort au combat plutôt que de continuer à moisir dans leurs cellules. A moins qu’ils n’aient espéré mettre les voiles une fois sur place !
Des grosses primes ou la vie sauve, finalement les jeunes iraniens ne se bousculent pas aux portillons pour répondre à l’appel historique du Guide Suprême pour aller défendre les frères du Hezbollah et il aura fallu y mettre le juste prix. On se demandera également où sont passées ces foules de milliers de manifestants prêts à aller en découdre avec les «affreux sionistes» comme nous le racontait Delphine Minoui il y a encore une semaine ?
Revenons à nos violeurs ou voleurs étrangleurs recrutés en prison, là, cette fois l’arabophonie n’a pas été exigée ! Il semblerait donc que le critère de la langue ne soit qu’un prétexte pour se débarrasser des fortes têtes arabophones, en faisant d’une pierre deux coups. D’évidence, le régime des mollahs considère les recrues iraniennes comme de la chair à canon et peut-être même seront-ils les cadavres de combattants qui manquent pour le moment aux images truquées qui nous arrivent du Liban. Images où l’on ne voit aucun combattant mort mais toujours des civils morts ou mutilés, des femmes ou des enfants. Désormais nous verrons donc de plus en plus de combattants martyrs iraniens.
Ce seront des cadavres utiles placés dans les décombres pour faire croire à des pertes du Hezbollah qui ne saurait accepter de perdre des combattants et en même temps aimerait exposer quelques martyrs mâles. Les journalistes ont signalé ainsi 7 corps identifiés comme étant des iraniens, reconnus par la présence de tatouages de mots persans. Or, l’islam proscrit le tatouage, ils n’étaient donc pas de pieux combattants fidèles au Hezbollah et probablement des repris de justice d’origine iranienne ou les fortes têtes du Khouzestan, attirées sur place par l’appât du gain et liquidées pour nourrir la machine à pleurer les martyrs”…
iranian prisonners are requested to fight with hezbollah, so that IDF could find hezbollah fighters bodies
August 13th, 2006 at 12:05 pm
Nomad - very interesting article, this one. Where’s it from? Who dares to write thus about the “Stabilizing and positive force in the Middle East”?
August 13th, 2006 at 12:17 pm
here :
http://www.iran-resist.org/article2475
August 14th, 2006 at 3:33 am
Raccoony,
After thinking about your post I came up with the following:-
1- If you don’t take back the personal attack of me supporting murderers and terrorists, you will hear no reply from me.
2- If you don’t agree with the logic that if Israel has the right to defend itself so is Palestinians, Lebanese than we have no point to converse.
Israel and the terrorist organizations are equal in my point of view so instead of keep posting back and forth and waste a very valuable time for me and you, let us agree on the basics first before we start our discussion.
On a lighter note, your gracious re-appearance on the discussion board on a very strange timming gets me thinking
From a Raccoon to a Raccoon
and don’t worry you will remain my fav. Raccoon despite your insults.
August 14th, 2006 at 3:36 am
On a personal level we can meet in France with Nomad and get some good french wine and bosem and crack up some jokes and talk politics
August 14th, 2006 at 7:31 am
I have been reading through this thread. SM you have some rather unusual guests who comment on your blog. Some of them have some very unsound ideas. Some sound like they have been to brainwashing school, where their brains were removed and it is hard to tell what took their place (the subjects know who I mean because they are the spouters of hatred that could only come from a madraas). Then there are the remainder who are intelligent and thoughtful. SM you are one of the thoughtful and intelligent people, and a good person who is risking a lot to blog in this way.
I agree that the photographs of dead babies and children are pornographic. I agree that it is very wrong to abuse the dead in that way. Holding a baby aloft as though it is a trophy is disgusting. The person who did that action showed no concern for the dead infant. The way in which this same man abused one little girl by taking her out of the ambulance so that she could be filmed again is disgusting.
I am making my comments from the point of view of being a Catholic (watch the hate arrows coming my way over that statement). I believe that there should be an element of dignity when it comes to the reporting of these events. That dignity was lacking at Qana (can it also be spelt Cana?) because the photographers (including the disgraced Adnan Hajj) were on a feeding frenzy over these bodies.
Other bloggers have looked at this from the point of view of whether or not the scene was totally staged. Considering the timing of the bombing and then the building collapse, as well as the differences in the reports, including the reports from some very unreliable eye witnessess, and also considering that there were so few bodies underneath the sheets (definitely not 60) I think that even the revised figure of 28 is too high. In all there were probably 5 children, including the baby that died, plus several adults. From the photographs that I have seen, there was no evidence of dozens of women dying. It was more likely that the other dead bodies were men.
This had me thinking about what might have really happened on that night. Perhaps tanswer is somewhere between the extremes, but it really does appear that the children might have been shipped to the site. I have seen the video of the woman who claimed that she had been in the building. Her sister or cousin was injured but how do we know if this woman in the video was injured at Qana? Mr. Green Helmet and Hezbollah could have given the people a script of what they were to say in order to produce people who “survived”. I saw one picture of a survivor, and others in a hospital who were said to be survivors, yet not one piece of footage shows any of the “rescuers” acting in a frantic manner to reach the “survivors”
I am being very cynical over what I think about the situation. I do think the press has some explaining to do over the way in which they violated the privacy of those who died, whether it was at Qana or elsewhere. They had no right to publish those fauxtographs. Likewise they had no right to photograph and then publish photographs of the late Princess of Wales as she was dying at the scene of an accident in Paris.
I do not wish to be desentisized so that I no longer know the truth. That is a tactic that George Orwell described in the novel “1984″. We are living that reality at this very moment.
August 14th, 2006 at 1:03 pm
On a personal level we can meet in France with Nomad and get some good french wine and bosem and crack up some jokes and talk politics
yeah, and take Craig too , we make some good Coffee, but for Racoon, I will not provide joint !
August 14th, 2006 at 2:03 pm
But nomad… I don’t know anyone in France to buy weed from! What am I going to do then?
Or we could meet in Amsterdam… lovely place, excellet coffee, the very best examples of fine agricultural products
August 14th, 2006 at 2:36 pm
Zwitzerland is well known too, and it is very natural producted too!
and if you can’t make it without kraut, I know some guis here who could provide it, and they have open door !
August 14th, 2006 at 3:36 pm
LOL, it’s a date, Nomad
I’ll probably be in the USA before Europe, though, so it’ll have to wait. Unless you want to come to Vermont?
August 14th, 2006 at 4:08 pm
I ‘d loved to, but I have to assure my service here, and I don’t fancy to take the plane , plus, I don’t either want my 3 dogggies take the plane too : for a lot of accidents happen when they are in luggage-rooom
August 14th, 2006 at 5:16 pm
Hey, planes are fun. Nowadays they’re like Russian roulette - you might get to your destination or you might blow up midair. Fun for all the family!
Three dogs? Sounds scary to me
August 14th, 2006 at 5:46 pm
yeah, I know they are part of the earth warming, they make such wind breakings !
anyways, it is in our gaul genes to live with animals, do you know “Asterix the gaul” ? it is a famous comic strip; unfortunately the author is dead, I bet he would have drawn “Asterix in Israel” by now too !
August 14th, 2006 at 9:42 pm
Well, Well, Well…look at that I’m missing on all the fun, joint, wine and best of all good company
you guys rock, I wish this blog had many of you.
August 14th, 2006 at 9:43 pm
Nomad,
I don’t think you are aware of a Big Fat problem between T.&C., whatzzzup with all the trolls attacking Twosret? new wave of bloggers or what?
August 14th, 2006 at 10:40 pm
yeah, Mohamed, I have read a bit of T & C virtual quarrel, nothing definitive !
I don’t think those who are on T right now are new, I got myself my lot at time, these are words ping pong matches, no worry , I got in use with far more rude approches in other places, and I expect T too !
August 14th, 2006 at 11:42 pm
She better develop thick skin and come and join us.
August 15th, 2006 at 3:04 pm
to complete my suggestion about Asterix in Israel, actually the author did not dare to achieve it, cause he was himself jewish, and was afraid one could tell it would have been Israel propaganda, so his co-author made one later about an Odyssee in black gold countries :
http://www.asterix.co.nz/take_a_look/blackgold/index.html
August 16th, 2006 at 8:41 pm
Photographer attempts rebuttal of Qanagate scandal
It would appear that Michael Shaw and Tim Fadek are attempting to rebut the scandal surrounding the Qana photographs. Richard North from EUReferendum has done an excellent job rebutting the rebuttals, as usual. I’d only add one thing:
Tim is wise…
August 21st, 2006 at 11:21 am
Sandmonkey
Sandmonkey recounts an interesting chat with his grandmother on the sanctity of the dead. It really makes my point about death porn being a Bad Thing™ far better than I have ever expressed it.
I, too, used to have a job which involved reading english…
August 21st, 2006 at 10:29 pm
I would rather watch a good porn than dead people. That’s just fuckin sick dude.
November 16th, 2006 at 3:21 pm
God bless this world
March 11th, 2007 at 10:39 am
That is your best post. Ever. Eye-opening and hurtful.