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Friday, 15 Sep 2006
The End is near. The signs are here. Hell has frozen over:
The militant Shiite group Hezbollah committed war crimes in its deliberate targeting of civilians in the recent conflict with
Israel, according to Amnesty International.
The London-based human rights group said the guerillas fired nearly
4,000 rockets into northern Israel, killing 43 civilians, seriously
injuring 33 others and forcing hundreds of thousands to take refuge or
flee.About a quarter of all rockets — some packed with thousands of metal
ball bearings — were fired directly into urban areas, it added in a
nine-page document called "Under fire — Hezbollah's attacks on
northern Israel".It was only because Israeli civilians fled their homes or took shelter
in bunkers that a higher death toll was prevented, it said."The scale of Hezbollah's attacks on Israeli cities, towns and
villages, the indiscriminate nature of the weapons used and statements
from the leadership confirming their intent to target civilians make it
all too clear that Hezbollah violated the laws of war," said Amnesty's
secretary-general Irene Khan."The fact that Israel has also committed serious violations in no way
justifies violations by Hezbollah. Civilians must not be made to pay
the price for unlawful conduct on either side."
There must be a glitch in the matrix or something. I don't know. I am gonna go ask those flying pigs over there!
September 15th, 2006 at 4:45 pm
Sand Monkey:
Can you or someone please fucking tell me, why is that whenever someone says anything about Muslims, we burn shit? Effigies, flags, books?
Why is it that every time I think of myself as Muslim, this is the image I find myself associated with:
http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2006/WORLD/europe/09/15/pope.islam/t1.popfire.ap.jpg
I am beggining to think that biggest conspiracy against Islam that aims at its demise and destruction is, in fact, Muslims.
WTF!
September 15th, 2006 at 5:32 pm
Im not getting it, SM. Amnesty had a research visit (mission in their words) in Lebanon as well as Israel, and now this is the second report coming out from it. The only thing you can accuse Amnesty of now, is that they came almost a month later with the report on Hezbollah after the one on Israel.
In the press report it is stated that there will be a report on the accusations of the use of human shield by Hezbollah and the amount of civilian deaths as a result of Israels bombing.
So,… more to come.
September 15th, 2006 at 5:33 pm
@Abla Adeela, if it comforts you: the Dutch Muslim Council calls for a worldly dialogue with the pope.
September 15th, 2006 at 5:35 pm
Holy Christ: What the hell happened? And just when I got my head around the Fact that Guantanamo is a concentration camp and Jews are Nazis!
September 15th, 2006 at 5:47 pm
[...] goes out to the Sandmonkey Permalink [...]
September 15th, 2006 at 6:52 pm
My only complaint with Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch is that they condemn everybody (for every possible thing) equally. The US is just as guilty of crimes against humanity for having Capital Punishment as Hitler is for having committed genocide, for instance. That’s an extreme example, but it’s a valid one. Look at allegations of prisoner abuse for… Germany, lets say… and Iran. You will find that the reports of abuses are literally interchangeable.
September 15th, 2006 at 6:55 pm
Amnesty International should get in the game!
Wonder if they know who won the world cup soccer?
Allan W Janssen is the author of The Plain Truth About God-101 (what the church doesn’t want you to know!) at; http://www.God-101.com
And the petition to have people mind their own business instead of yours at; http://www.petitiononline.com/moses/petition.html
September 15th, 2006 at 8:46 pm
If you live in Texas, please be on the lookout for this terrorist:
http://www.fbi.gov/terrorinfo/elshukrijumah.htm
SM, can you please put this guy’s picture up on your blog and increase exposure?
Word is, this guy is out shopping for homes.
Second word is, terrorists are planning to strike the US on the month of Ramadan, September 24 to October 23.
September 15th, 2006 at 8:47 pm
What does “too many unlock attemps” mean?
September 15th, 2006 at 8:48 pm
More story from this blog here:
http://ace.mu.nu/archives/196887.php
September 15th, 2006 at 8:52 pm
“‘Sorry, bad luck on this one, cow-boy, try again. You have 4 attempts left.”
HUH?????????????
September 15th, 2006 at 8:53 pm
SS-AA-MM:
Whats dis bullshit?
~~~Thank you. Your comment will be displayed as soon as it is approved by a moderator.~~~
???
I just wanted to warn you for “unidentified” “holla’s”
Tse.
September 16th, 2006 at 12:18 am
“The US is just as guilty of crimes against humanity for having Capital Punishment as Hitler is for having committed genocide, for instance.”
Craig, you’re either woefully ignorant, an idiot, or nuts. I’m sorry to be so mean. But you deserve it for saying this.
As for the post — how kind of Amnesty International to acknowledge this! Maybe at some point they will also deign to explain to the world that firing rockets from civilian areas is at least as much a war crime as firing retliatory strikes into those areas.
September 16th, 2006 at 1:04 am
Dan–Craid was summarizing the attitude of AI.
Now, what will AI do to Hezbollah? Sentence Nasrullah to thirty nine lashes with a wet noodle?
September 16th, 2006 at 1:19 am
For once i kinda agree with craig. Amnest international uses the same Paint brush for everyone. their is no meter of serverity. Its either you are guilty and you get the death penilty, or your innocent and you get to go free no matter what the situation is. but in anycase, Hizboalah is guilty of war crimes in both secular and islamic courts. The purpose killing and targeting of civilians is Prohibited under Islamic Law.
But might i add AI is wrong for painting israel and Lebonan with the same brush. Israel killed thousands the majority where civilians, and Hizboallah killed hundereds most of them military. Yes Hizboallah should HAVE NEVER targeted Civilians no mattr what becuase if u act like the enemy you THEN you are the enemy. Hizboalah are supposidly Muslims they should act in a certain humane fashion, a Muslim follows stricter Laws when it come to Morality, then the Non-Muslim because the Non-Muslim does not know better he or she is a savage they have yet to progress to the moral teachings of islam. its okay for the US to bomb cities and kill millions with Nuclear Weapons, but no Muslim nation dare do such a thing because even cutting down a tree in Islam is a war crime not to mention the targeting of civilians.
September 16th, 2006 at 1:25 am
Dan, I think you missed the spirit of Craig’s post. He was knocking the message of moral equivalency that Amnesty constantly perpetuates. It bugs me as well–and probably you too. Still, in the context of the recent behavior of the human rights community, this new report is a step up.
September 16th, 2006 at 1:29 am
LibyanWarrior claims that “its okay for the US to bomb cities and kill millions with Nuclear Weapons, but no Muslim nation dare do such a thing because even cutting down a tree in Islam is a war crime not to mention the targeting of civilians.”
Wow, man! That’s news to me! Muslims don’t use wood?
September 16th, 2006 at 1:48 am
They don’t use wood sn. They use their left hand.
September 16th, 2006 at 1:53 am
Uh, I’m in Texas–so where is the terrorist likely to be? Do we know which city in Texas? Perhaps I missed that information (will read again).
Amnesty at least finally acknowledged that Hezbollah was targeting civilians in Israel and that this was a war crime. It has certainly seemed to me that most of the international community regards any hostility, any harm to or death of an Israeli citizen as ok.
September 16th, 2006 at 2:40 am
Tommy, I don’t use wood either, brother. You have a more robust rear than most.
September 16th, 2006 at 3:26 am
to quote Mal:
…. huh.
September 16th, 2006 at 3:51 am
abla, I really enjoy the whole “We will kill you if you don’t stop saying we are violent” vibe from the M.E. That and the constant slaughter of muslims by other muslims leaving the survivors to blame it all on jews and/or Americans and sometimes Denmark
Sometimes I wonder why Americans don’t just convert to Islam and then kill as many muslims as we can. Nobody would even notice and if they did we could just beat our chest at Israel and they would go back to burning shit and running around in the streets like idiots until we eventually killed all of them as well. I’m not advocating genocide (just yet:) but I honestly wonder if anyone in the middle east would notice if a bunch of muslims destroyed another muslim country and wiped the population out for good.
September 16th, 2006 at 4:03 am
Mike,
That’s pretty funny.
I think the Ummah and the two satans (big and little) ought to get together and agree to blame everything on Denmark. I mean, what kind of ridiculous name is Aarhus for a city? Macbeth…need I say more? Face it, the Danes deserve it. Like we wouldn’t have thought of the Cheese Danish with out them? And butter cookies?. Feh!
September 16th, 2006 at 4:26 am
“because even cutting down a tree in Islam is a war crime not to mention the targeting of civilians.”
That is because when you cut down a tree in some Middle Eastern countries, you are cutting down the entire National Forest.
September 16th, 2006 at 4:29 am
That is because when you cut down a tree in some Middle Eastern countries, you are cutting down the entire National Forest.
September 16th, 2006 at 4:41 am
Abla, I do not associate all Muslims with terrorism and violence. I am very much aware of the diversity within all groups. I do understand what you mean though about identification with a group. I live in the US in the South, where for so many years that has been prejudice and unfairness toward African Americans. Whenever I would hear about some hateful act against them by “white people”, I would be so enraged that their terrible actions reflected on me by association. It’’s a really awful feeling to know that the image that others have of you is based on the actions of thugs and morons. One thing that I really love about blogs is that everyone gets a chance to hear moderate voices of reason from many groups. All we can do as caring people is to promote understanding, respect and acceptance when and where we can.
September 16th, 2006 at 5:01 am
Response to Anon: Thank you for the warning about the terrorist in Texas. I live in Austin, and as luck would have it, that is apparently where he was last seen. Peachy.
September 16th, 2006 at 5:08 am
The terrorist is probably aiming to detonate a dirty bomb outside of the Crawford Ranch. It is possible he is being sheltered by Cindy “The Peace Mom Who Fantasizes about Killing Bush” Sheehan right next door until Ramadan rolls around.
Ace of Spades (one of my daily reads and one of the best unsung blogs on the net, IMO) originally reported this:
http://ace.mu.nu/archives/196887.php
September 16th, 2006 at 7:01 am
tommy,
If he detonates a dirty bomb, you’re in luck! Still, the panicking crowds can be a bit dangerous as some people still believe that the radioactive material of a dirty bomb can pose a danger.
“At levels created from most probable sources, not enough radiation would be present to cause severe illness or death. A test explosion and subsequent calculations done by the United States Department of Energy found that assuming nothing is done to clean up the affected area and everyone stays in the affected area for 1 year, the radiation exposure would be ‘fairly high’.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirty_bomb
September 16th, 2006 at 7:54 am
eero,
Yeah, I know. The effect of a dirty bomb is pretty much psychological.
A scarier kind of a weapon, certainly beyond the capabilties of a terrorist organization to construct, would be salted nuclear weapons: fission-powered dirty bombs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobalt_bomb
September 16th, 2006 at 12:14 pm
“they condemn everybody (for every possible thing) equally. ”
Their point is probably that torturing or murdering even one person is an absolute crime. Amnesty is applying a zero tolerance attitude.
Is it an excuse to say “I only tortured ten people to death, he did it to hundreds, so I should be praised for my self-restraint”?
September 16th, 2006 at 12:57 pm
a question for Lybianwarrior…
dont you see the irony? when the pope tell that “belief in god doesnt alow you to act violently…”
all the followers of “the religion of peace” scream in anger: “its a lie!” and then go and burn couple of churches?
[quote]
Two churches in the West Bank were hit by firebombs Saturday, and a group claiming responsibility said it was protesting Benedict’s words[/quote]
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,214124,00.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/5349604.stm
or is it Zionist conspiracy again?
September 16th, 2006 at 2:06 pm
To LybianWarrior: I agree. But the truth is that war is always going to harm those civilians caught in the middle of it. And, what about the soldiers? I always think that these are young men and women who could be friends in other circumstances. They are sent into battle —well, perhaps diplomacy would work much better. Can our governments be pressed, influenced to seek diplomatic solutions? Can and will citizens of our countries ask for dialogue and compromise? How can we promote the principle that every single human life has value? If this principle fails to be the guiding philosophy, we are going to continue to have wars, terrorism, death and destruction. Most of the issues confronting us all have no rational basis for conflict but are the result of blind hatred and prejudice. Very unfortunate.
As to the US using nuclear weapons, I guess one’s attitude about that depends on what one has been taught. From my earliest remembrance, my mother told me that use of nuclear force against Japan was unnecessary and immoral. She was a chemist and was against the use of nuclear weapons at all. Ever. The truth is that throughout human history, some men/women have found ways to inflict unspeakable torture and death on innocent people. It cannot be justified. I jpropose that we use diplomacy, not military force to solve our differences and build better lives for all of us
September 16th, 2006 at 3:33 pm
God, what’s really striking is how toned-down Amnesty’s report is.
Between 100 and 200 rockets each day, all targetting civilians!!! Each rocket-launch is a vicious war crime. Together, they amount to a massive war crime. Not only that, but Hizballah’s entire strategy was to commit between 100 and 200 war crimes a day.
Amnesty (at least in the section you quoted) didn’t mention Hizballah’s other disgusting and horrific war crime: that of operating their war from the immediate vicinity of (Lebanese) civilians.
Note the words Amnesty uses: “violated the laws of war”. Sounds fairly harmless. Doesn’t seem like a big deal, really.
In the same article, it refers to Israel as having carried out “serious” war crimes lol. God, try and imagine if Israel’s entire strategy had been to indiscriminately launch rockets into civilian populations. 100 to 200 a day. With no Hizballah weapons and people being targeted. Only civilians.
It would be called a genocide by most people and Amnesty would blow its roof off. There’d be no mere “violated the laws of war” followed by a statement of how Hizballah (by contrast) commited “serious” war crimes.
Now try and imagine if Israel had placed their rocket launchers on-top of, under, and in the immediate vicinity of civilians so that anyone trying to stop Israeli rockets from hitting their population centres would be forced to harm civilians. Try to picture the world-wide contempt which would (rightly) follow Israeli cries of “look, they murder our civilians!”.
In today’s media, if you’re Israeli or American, you’re Guilty. If you’re Muslim, you’re always innocent. And, of course, never more innocent than when killing civilians.
September 16th, 2006 at 3:54 pm
Hell hasn’t really frozen over….
…this is just a light frost that will pass.
Amnesty International will return to its regular programming shortly.
September 16th, 2006 at 5:02 pm
Two churches in the West Bank were hit by firebombs Saturday, and a group claiming responsibility said it was protesting Benedict’s words
The funny thing is that I’ved heard they hit an Oriental Orthodox church, not a Catholic one. The Orthodox have been estranged from the Catholics for eons. Christians are all the same to these knuckleheads. It would be like me going out and attacking a Shiite mosque in retaliation for the actions of Sunni Muslims on the United States during 9/11/01. Except that this controversy is not anywhere near as serious as 9/11. In fact, this is just a really dumb sequel to the Danish Cartoons.
I can see the movie now….
Danish Cartoons II: Benedict’s Revenge
September 16th, 2006 at 5:19 pm
I have to believe that i am not the only person at this point that has COMPLETELY tuned them out - them being HRW, AI, the UN, and certain media outlets such as the NY Times.
In my outlook, these entities simply no longer have any relevancy whatsoever, so I take no comfort in their condemnation of the iranian terrorist proxies. They simply dont even exist in my mind, its like the minor league sports team of a far away city, complete non-existence. Its only when you apply any element of attenton or credence to these self-appointed moralistic enterprises that you can feel anger when they assault those you support, and fervent jubiliation when they reverse course.
At this stage, those in the civilized world need to decide that certain aspects of western society, whether it be citizen apologists for terror, governmental, NGO, or media, simply are not to be respected - or responded to. Once this decision has been fully implemented, and the funding for useless NGOs will dry up.
The self-perpetuating cycle of the almost completely non-credible news media providing a platform of publicity for the “human rights” NGOs, who then happily use the media to propel their targeted messages and agenda, has simply outrun the broader public’s patience.
For example, the current nonsense from the muslim world by various animals (i use that term as it is completely apt) about the latest pope’s utterances - while remaining silent while churches are attacked, jews and christians violently assaulted in the state-controlled muslim news media on an almost hourly basis, is of no interest. If the awful news media thinks it can garner our attention any longer with these portraylas of cavemen-like barbarians, they need to think again. The world KNOWS the muslim countries are scumholes, hypocritical toilets better suited to be removed from this planet; we dont need to be reminded of it every day.
September 16th, 2006 at 5:21 pm
“Listen. And understand. That terminator is out there. It can’t be bargained with. It can’t be reasoned with. It doesn’t feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead.” from the movie Terminator
I watched this movie last night. Could be a quote about radical Islam. Scary.
September 16th, 2006 at 5:44 pm
Checked the latest reports. Sure enough, they hit an Orthodox Church and an Anglican Church. Neither of which is controlled by the Pope. What a bunch of Muslim assclowns.
The gods may not be crazy, but the Muslims certainly are.
September 16th, 2006 at 5:52 pm
George W has killed 60,000 to 100,000 civilians in his war of civiliazations. His predecessor praised the sanctions that killed a million Iraqi civilians. I think we have made the point that you cannot avoid collateral casualties.
I presume that terrorists would prefer to use F16s and Apaches’ rather than the crud from Iran? Hell of a lot less painful sitting in a cockpit than having your own cock blown up and spread around a shopping mall! Virgins or no virgins.
September 16th, 2006 at 6:13 pm
To correct the record (from DEBKAfile):
They left scorch marks on the walls and windows of a Roman Catholic and an Anglican church, claimed by the “Lions of Monotheism.” No one was hurt
An explosion damaged the Greek Orthodox church youth center in Gaza.
They are batting 1 for 3 in attacking actual Catholic facilities. Better than I would have predicted.
Of course, while whining about the Pope’s remarks, a religious leader among the Israeli Arabs - and clearly one of those misunderstanders of the peaceful nature of Islam - is talking world domination:
Israeli Arab Islamic leader Sheikh Raed Salah denounced Pope’s words and declared the “Israeli occupation” of Jerusalem will soon vanish and Jerusalem will become capital of the “world Islamic caliphate.” He roared: “With fire and blood we shall liberate al Aqsa!” and was echoed by 50,000 adherents.
As you can see, about 50,000 of his followers are also misunderstanders of the peaceful nature of Islam.
September 16th, 2006 at 6:19 pm
The Pope crisis is good. It’s all good. People are starting to get it. Every time there is an attempt at violent extortion (including these riotous so-called “protests”) another few thousand non-mulsims understand exactly where the terrorism is really coming from. And no, I won’t elaborate on that.
September 16th, 2006 at 6:35 pm
The Taliban sets the record straight. Classic:
The Taliban statement said the pope had “shamelessly said the respected Prophet Mohammed brought nothing but violence”.
September 16th, 2006 at 6:35 pm
Look, the man had Hitler for a boss (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XVI). I am sure he made arrangements with the Z lobby to atone for his past life. “Screw with Muslims” were his marching orders from the WZO, well, I am sure I am paraphrasing.
Point is, how does one start a dialogue about religion and war? This former Nazi chose this message out of all the messages that were said on the subject of Islam and war. Were there no other statements less inflammatory in the past 600 years; maybe? Pope needed to balance this statement with “And Christians were fuc***g pigs the way they behaved in the 17th Century in the Americas. And the Crusades and the Inquisition were no stroll in the park. Oh, and lets not forget the genocide last century in Africa, or today’s fascists who are funding Armageddon, Bush and Israel.”. But hey, he did not mean to insult. He is reeeealy reeeealy sad he caused offense! Kiss my brown Muslim ass you duplicitous Kraut!
September 16th, 2006 at 6:39 pm
Even better is the caption from the AFP photograph accompanying the story:
Afghanistan’s Taliban has demanded that Pope Benedict XVI apologise for remarks linking Islam with violence,…
September 16th, 2006 at 6:54 pm
Lynne, I think you are hot! If you are single, let me know!
September 16th, 2006 at 6:57 pm
Craig (#42) I agree with you.
The Pope reminded us, that it’s time to recollect our history.
“Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.” —14th century Byzantine Christian Emperor Manuel Paleologos .
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/005935.htm
September 16th, 2006 at 6:57 pm
tommy, you have to stop watching Rupert Murdoch. He has shit for brains. War is not a one way thing.
September 16th, 2006 at 6:59 pm
I don’t think I’ve commented too much on the nature of war on this thread, bureaucrat. Are you sure you mean tommy and not somebody else?
September 16th, 2006 at 7:02 pm
I think we should all read Lynne’s posting, because that is the way to proceed. Lynne, even if you are not single, I would still love to chat to someone who is as bright and inspiring as you are! Please write to me on sound_vision_soul@yahoo.com and let’s become friends. Any other pro-war wacos, please don’t send me junk mail!
——————————————
We should all learn from Costa Rica!
September 16th, 2006 at 7:21 pm
Tommy, apologies, a rather cryptic response.
I was responding to your observation that the Taliban were criticizing the Pope for thinking Islam was violent. It does sound absurd. But its absurdity is compounded by the notion that the West thinks of the Taliban a violent organization, without considering at the behavior of the military industrial complex in the west.
Every US president is expected to start at least one war to keep the MIC profitable.
The Koran prescribes the conditions for war. The bible, at least the earlier versions - before the roman catholics got hold of the church, forbade all forms of war.
This irony is lost to followers of Murdoch.
September 16th, 2006 at 7:23 pm
cleric linked to Somalia’s powerful Islamist movement has called for Muslims to “hunt down” and kill Pope Benedict XVI for his controversial comments about Islam.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/somali-cleric-calls-for-popes-death/2006/09/16/1158334739295.html
“We urge you Muslims wherever you are to hunt down the Pope for his barbaric statements as you have pursued Salman Rushdie, the enemy of Allah who offended our religion,” he said in Friday evening prayers.
***
“Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.” –Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Paleologus 1391
September 16th, 2006 at 7:30 pm
the West thinks of the Taliban a violent organization, without considering at the behavior of the military industrial complex in the west.
Lol. Ummm..but the military-industrial complex will not be insulted by saying they are pretty much for the act of war. In fact, they will probably freely admit they are all about war.
Islam was a violent religon since its inception. The Crusades didn’t happen until a millenium after the founding of Christianity. Muhammad was involved in over 70 battles during his lifetime, the most violent act Jesus ever engaged in was overturning a moneychanger’s table. Honestly, which religion is going to be inherently more violent?
September 16th, 2006 at 7:38 pm
Dudes, check this guy out:
http://www.geocities.com/alegnos/alienside.JPG
He blogs on:
http://aliennews.cjb.net/
September 16th, 2006 at 7:43 pm
Tommy
You are right. I just got thro saying just that. Islam prescribes violence in some cases. Christianity does not. So the hypocracy is staring you in the face dude.
September 16th, 2006 at 7:45 pm
The funny thing is that I’ved heard they hit an Oriental Orthodox church, not a Catholic one.
Checked the latest reports. Sure enough, they hit an Orthodox Church and an Anglican Church. Neither of which is controlled by the Pope.
The Pope crisis is good. It’s all good. People are starting to get it.
when a pope says something in your way, it is OK,
didn’t you, the Anglo-saxons, make a fun of him with his Hitler’ junge past when he was just elected ?
now, for me that pope is a reactionary pope, return to religion war times !
and yes, I agree , Lynne, you are a wise woman
September 16th, 2006 at 7:46 pm
You are quickly being incoherent, bureaucrat. Please, but down the latest edition of The Independent and join us on planet Earth.
September 16th, 2006 at 7:48 pm
Tommy
And before you go on and restate the obvious again, the pope’s quote was also correct - Islam has brought nothing (or very little) that is new. Islam is an amalgamation of Judiasm and Christianity. Unfortunately, we took the bad from Judiasm (eye for an eye) and forgot the good from christianity (turn the other cheek and love thy enemies etc).
September 16th, 2006 at 7:55 pm
September 16th, 2006 at 10:23 pm
Islam is an amalgamation of Judiasm and Christianity.
That’s an insult to Christianity. Apologize, now, before I burn down your goddamned embassy.
PS-What country do you live in? And can I order your flag online?
September 16th, 2006 at 10:41 pm
Beaurocrat,
Please cite some links to your numbers. As for your comment that a US president “needs” to do any damn thing at all to satisfy the MIC (presumably that means “Military Industrial Complex),” please consider the possibility that, every time a new leader is elected, there are those who will be tempted to play “new kid on the block” with them. Consider this in light of the experience of … Ronald Reagan,George Bush, Bill Clinton, George Bush, and Ehud Olmert. Please consider the remote possibility that that elected officials generally and US presidents specifically, respond to VOTERS, not contractors.
Also, please consider that Christianity is not an amalgamation of Judaism, but a splinter group that developed on its own, and yet won its intellectual arguments with Judaism. Judaism and Christianity are both founded on the notion that the second great Commandment is “Love thy neighbor as thyself” — What I do not know is whether Islam accepts the second comandment as a foundation of its law, or not. If the second great commandment is not part of Islam, then Islam is not an amalgamation of Christianity and Judiasm, but a rejection of both, for it would then reject its fundamental duty toward its neighbors.
September 16th, 2006 at 11:07 pm
Umm-Al-Fahem should have been circled by IDF during their annual hate-fest. And then every single person over 4 years old inside the circle should have been arrested. Anyone resisting in a violent way should have been shot (and that includes hitting soldiers or throwing stuff at them), regardless of age. And then all the detainees should have been tried and jailed for incitement of hatred and treason… and as far as I know Umm-Al-Fahem, gun posession. There will not be too many detainees, anyway - again, knowing Umm-Al-Fahem, they will all try to kill as many Jews as they can.
Then this shithole should be checked for construction permits… and since they have almost none, it should be appropriated by the state and turned into a prison for traitors.
Israel should - and will - become a state enforcing it’s own godsdamn laws.
Which means that all the terrorist scum protesting illegally in the Arab villages in Israel after the aforementioned events should also be arrested. And the houses of ALL Israeli Arabs should be checked for illegal weapons… and those having such weapons should be jailed.
Fucking 5th column. Even when not actively supporting the enemy they’re undermining Israel by not obeying the godsdamn laws.
BTW, Umm-Al-Fahem is a place not many Israeli Arabs can enter. Well, they can enter, but they are unlikely to leave. I am not even talking about Jews - we just don’t enter Umm-Al-Fahem because that means certain death by lynching after being gang-raped by the whole fucking village.
September 16th, 2006 at 11:48 pm
That’s an insult to Christianity. Apologize, now, before I burn down your goddamned embassy.
PS-What country do you live in? And can I order your flag online?
doest not your church teach you forgiveness anymore Rambo man?
September 17th, 2006 at 12:26 am
Damn. The misunderstanders are at it again:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/013135.php
September 17th, 2006 at 12:29 am
“Every US president is expected to start at least one war to keep the MIC profitable”
You are a fucking idiot. Your name fits your stupid comments well.
September 17th, 2006 at 12:32 am
BTW, is some skinny durka really calling for the murder of the pope? If so does anyone want to bet that the durka in question didn’t even read the pope’s speech that caused his muredrous outrage. So f’n typical of these people.
September 17th, 2006 at 12:57 am
so, Benoit XVI is becoming your idol now , n’importe quoi !
September 17th, 2006 at 1:01 am
Hey, relax Mike. The honest truth is very few Somalis can read.
September 17th, 2006 at 2:56 am
To lynne: Well finally a voice of reason with whom i can honestly have a rational discussion with, without having t resort to hostility and deffensivness. Yes Diplomacy is the greatist option. War sucks and War is horrible, and it should be avoided by all costs. As God says in the Quran
“blessed are the peacemakers”. one Should always look to resolve wars peacefully. Every human life does have value, like the Quran teaches, to save one life is to save all mankind, and to take a life is to kill all of mankind. I personally interpert this as by killing others we kill what makes us Human, we kill ourbasic human instincts of Compasion for one another by saving a life we are Saving our humanity. Japan was horrible, all nuclear Programs are horrible, and really a signal of the end times in my opinion. how someone can commit a act or even think of commiting such a act which impacts so many lives is something which I can not comprehend. Its a humanless act. but unfortunatly this act has scared everyone into making WMDS in hopes of preventing a attack on them. the fact that the US used the weapon is sickening. The fact that it was created or even though up of is sickening. The Weapon is not suppose to be used it is suppose to scare off Hostiles, the US could have easily attacked japan in more humane means, but it choose to do the Unthinkable which made it the thinkable, which made it a very real reality. The Weapon has now spread into the hands over everyone. The US through many of its actions have proven they are Hostile to the Muslim world, and that they are also Religiosly driven to war and crusade and all the rubish. This and the fact that they have used the weapon in the past is a very scary reality to many in the Muslim world. It is undoubtably prohibited by Islamic law to use the weapon, but unfortuantly many people tend to cut and paste Islamic Law to met their Warmongering needs. My opinion is Extreamistsand Provacters on both sides must be with drawn IMMEDIATLY. If peace is to occur through Diplomatic means.
September 17th, 2006 at 3:35 am
Poor darlin’ Hezbollah. Acquiring all that explosive stuff over the years, using their neighbors like the Great Wall of China. Using Israeli uniforms in conflict. Blaming everybody, groveling to Iran. What a standup bunch.
This won’t mean anything because AI is a totally discredited organization.
September 17th, 2006 at 3:43 am
And the killings begin:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/013139.php
September 17th, 2006 at 5:15 am
As God says in the Quran “blessed are the peacemakers”.
Excuse me!? :O
Lynne, watch out for this guy. He’ll be threatening to rape you tomorrow. Seriously.
September 17th, 2006 at 5:19 am
Response to Libyan Warrior: If diplomacy is to be used instead of war, all of us will have to demand that. We will have to “clean our own houses” of radicals who are violently inclined and ask for peaceful means to resolve conflicts. The blogosphere is a powerful means to increase discussion between people and share ideas—to argue and to debate. I notice that so often there is disagreement between people, but they fail to realize that in essentials, they do agree. A difficulty is getting our goverment and leaders to listen, but through the contacts that we make on the blogs, we can share our ideas and philosophy which could have far-reaching results. One of my goals is to seek actively commonality with others: Where do we agree and can we move forward from there? That sort of thing–to explore and examine the ideas of others and our own.
There is so much fear now and suspicion between nations and this is an obstacle to peace. It leads to unwise decisions and poor problem-solving, and it makes us all irrational and angry. I hope that can change and soon, before things get any worse. I posted recently that a nation is a collection of individuals—so I cannot claim to speak for all Americans, only for myself.
Many in the US want peace with all nations–most of us, I’d guess. The idea that a nuclear bomb could be used is very frightening, and I cannot imagine how leaders could get away with doing that now. I am hoping that diplomatic means will be used as the main way to resolve issues, and I read on Stratfor (political experts) that this will be (and should be) considered the best approach now. It has become clear that issues cannot be resolved entirely through military means. I teach school, and as a teacher, I know that inspiration, motivation, and validation are effective ways of helping students deal with conflicts. Punishment leads to resentment and is associated with the one giving the punishment. It seems to me best to promote the philosphy that every single life has value and that we should treat others with kindness. We cannot control our governments but perhaps we can spread these ideas, try to counteract the fear and suspicion, reaffirm our commitment to understand each other and to accept differences and diversity. Positive steps forward are our hope for the peace and well-being of us all.
September 17th, 2006 at 5:21 am
Mike,
BTW, is some skinny durka really calling for the murder of the pope?
Yasser Arafat, when he thought somebody wasn’t showing him enough respect, used to always say “Remember who you are talking to! I am the Chairman of the PLO! The Chairman of the PLO!!”
The PLO never numbered more than 30,000 members. There are a billion (Billion with a B) Catholics, most of whom still believe that the Pope is God’s direct representative on earth.
Rememeber who you are talking to, muslims. If he declares a new crusade you’re all going to die. If he was the sort of man YOUR leaders are, that’s exactly what he would do.
September 17th, 2006 at 6:16 am
“The military industrial complex”????????
Bureaucrat, that is such old, worn out stuff. I can’t believe there are still people using that construct to describe the world we live in. Move on darlin’. You’re choking on everyone else’s dust.
September 17th, 2006 at 6:17 am
Religion of Pique strikes again:
http://ace.mu.nu/archives/197018.php
It happened in Thailand, so I blame the Jews.
September 17th, 2006 at 6:17 am
Religion of Pique strikes again:
http://ace.mu.nu/archives/197018.php
It happened in Thailand, so I blame the Jews and the ZIonist occupation of Palestine and, of course, the Americans.
September 17th, 2006 at 6:29 am
Even the Buddhist monks are packing heat these days in Thailand to try and protect themselves from the misunderstanders of Islam:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/09/13/thailand.teachers.guns.ap/index.html
September 17th, 2006 at 6:56 am
Valerie
http://www.sonyclassics.com/whywefight/main.html
has a great clip from a great American president - the man who coined the phrase “Military Industrial Complex”.
The New York-headquartered Global Policy Forum recently took a clear-eyed
look at the history of US soldiering in a comprehensive study of “US
Interventions — 1798 to the Present.” A similar survey charting “ACentury
of US Military Interventions: From Wounded Knee to Afghanistan” was
compiled by Zoltan Grossman and published on Znet in 2001. And in 1993, Ellen C. Collier, a Foreign Policy Specialist with the Congressional Research Service’s Foreign Affairs and National Defense Division assembled a list of “Instances of Use of United States Forces Abroad, 1798 - 1993.” The report can be found on the homepage of the US Navy’s Naval Historical Center. (www.history.navy.mil/wars/foabroad.htm)
Washington’s Imperial Reach
Here is a list of the foreign lands America has attacked — some have been
targeted more than once:
* French Territory (1798).
* Libya (1801-05; 1981; 1986; 1989).
* Spanish Mexico (1806).
* Britain (in the War of 1812).
* Marquesas Island (1813).
* French, British and Spanish Caribbean (1814-1825).
* Algiers and Tripoli (1815).
* Spanish Cuba (1822-1825).
* Greece (1827; 1947-49).
* Falkland/Malvinas Islands (1831).
* Sumatra (1832; 1838).
* Argentina (1833; 1890).
* Peru (1835-1836).
* Mexico (1836; 1846-48; 1859; 1876; 1913′ 1914; 1915-16).
* Canada (1837).
* Fiji (1840-41; 1858).
* Samoa (1841; 1885; 1888; 1889; 1899).
* China (1843; 1859; 1866; 1894-1895; 1900; 1911-1941; 1927-1927;
1927-1934; 1934; 1940-34; 1934; 1946-49).
* Ivory Coast (1843).
* Ottoman Empire/Turkey (1849).
* Nicaragua (1854; 1867; 1894; 1896; 1898; 1899; 1907; 1910;
1912-1933).
* Japan (1854; 1863; 1864; 1868; 1981-1990).
* Uruguay (1855; 1868).
* Columbia (1856; 1860; 1865; 1866; 1870; 1873; 1885; 1895; 1901;1902;
1903).
* Hawaii (1856; 1874; 1887; 1893).
* Paraguay (1859).
* Portuguese West Africa (1860).
* Formosa Island/Taiwan (1867).
* Midway Island (1867).
* Korea (1871; 1894-1896; 1904-05; 1950-53).
* British Egypt (1882).
* Haiti (1888; 1891; 1914-1934; 1959; 1991; 1994-96; 2004).
* Chile (1891; 1973).
* Guam (1898; 1903).
* Cuba (1898; 1906-09; 1912; 1917-1933; 1933; 1961; 1962).
* Puerto Rico (1898).
* Philippines (1898; 1899; 1948-54; 1989).
* Panama (1901; 1902; 1903; 1908; 1912; 1918-1920; 1925; 1958; 1964;
1989-1990)
* Honduras (1903; 1907; 1911; 1912; 1919; 1924-25; 1983-89).
* Dominican Republic (1903; 1914; 1916-1924; 1965).
* Russia (1918-1922).
* Yugoslavia (1919).
* Guatemala (1920; 1954; 1966-67).
* Turkey (1922).
* El Salvador (1932; 1981-1992).
* Iran (1946; 1953; 1980; 1984; 1987-1988).
* Italy (1948).
* Vietnam (1954; 1960-64; 1965-1975).
* Lebanon (1958; 1982-1984).
* Congo (1960; 1965).
* Laos (1962; 1965-73; 1971-73).
* Ecuador (1963).
* Brazil (1964).
* Indonesia (1965).
* Ghana (1966).
* Cambodia (1969-75; 1975).
* Oman (1970).
* Angola (1976-92).
* Grenada (1983).
* Bolivia (1986).
* Liberia (1990; 1997).
* Iraq (1990-91; 1991-2003; 1998; 2003-6).
* Somalia (1992-1994)
* Yugoslavia (1992-94; 1999)
* Bosnia (1993-95).
* Croatia (1995).
* Zaire (1996-97).
* Sudan (1998).
* Afghanistan (1998; 2001-06).
* Macedonia (2001).
In President Eisenhower’s farewell speech he warns Americans about the awesome power of the MIC. He says he pities future presidents since they do not understand their power. Well, he was proven right.
September 17th, 2006 at 7:16 am
Don’t pick on the buddhist monks. You won’t like it when they get angry. They’ll go all shaolin temple on your jihadi asses.
September 17th, 2006 at 7:39 am
What demographic groups aren’t Muslims targeting these days??? Sorry SM, I’m impugning a religion, not an ethnic group.
September 17th, 2006 at 7:52 am
#73
I don’t think they are going after the Scientologists quite yet. Certain Native American tribal religions might not be targeted at this point either. I haven’t heard too much on the Muslim/Shintoist conflict either.
Don’t worry. They are working on it. Give it time…..
September 17th, 2006 at 7:53 am
Oops! I meant #74.
September 17th, 2006 at 8:35 am
The PLO never numbered more than 30,000 members. There are a billion (Billion with a B) Catholics, most of whom still believe that the Pope is God’s direct representative on earth
Mind your own church business, you got a lot to introspect !
Pope is critisized in our catholic countries, so don’t take him as a christian flag, opportunity in that case is a fault
Tommy, ninight !
September 17th, 2006 at 9:11 am
Here is a list of the foreign lands America has attacked
I call spam on that asshat, unless he considers middle aged american tourists to be aggressors.
September 17th, 2006 at 9:52 am
Of course, many of the “attacks” he cites are quite minor incidents. Like the 1859 “war” with Paraguay:
http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/1859-war.htm
bureaucrat also ignores the fact that many of these “attacks” were provoked by the countries that were “attacked” by the United States. Libya in 1986 was be a good example.
Somalia is listed as an “attack” also by the United States. Most of the time we were in Somalia we weren’t attacking anybody. Finally, out of desparation, we had to go after people like Aidid.
I guess bureaucrat hasn’t figured that sometimes “attacking” other countries is a requirement.
September 17th, 2006 at 9:53 am
From Tommy’s link re: the bombing in Thailand -
A female Chinese tourist was among the dead, officials at Songklanakarin hospital said. Some 62 others were wounded in the blasts, including 11 foreigners, according to police.
And I found this interesting, also listed on that sight:
Arab Leaders: Pope’s Remarks may lead to War
The most extreme opinion was voiced by Hani Pahas in the London-based Arabic-language daily newspaper Al-Hayat, who wrote “the pope’s comments may lead to war; we fear that the pope’s statements may lead to a war that we, Muslims and Christians alike, are trying to prevent through dialogue between East and West.
War? No shit? What, muslims are so pissed they are going to start killing people now?
September 17th, 2006 at 9:54 am
Lynne, my email address is sound_vision_souls@yahoo.com (notice the plural souls)! Hope you write….
September 17th, 2006 at 10:06 am
Libya in 1986 was be a good example.
Libya in the early 1800s is a better one. The Barbary Pirates had been preying on US commercial shipping and eventually captured a US naval frigate and were holding the crew hostage. America’s first foreign war. The notorious tyrant “Thomas Jefferson” ordered that war of aggression.
On the idiot’s list, but he mistakenly put it second for some reason. I guess some backwoods redneck beat up a Frenchman in 1798.
Wherever he studied history, I hope he can get a refund of his tuition.
September 17th, 2006 at 10:19 am
Tommy
You’re sounding like a broken record with your whole “war is necessary, sometimes attacking other countries is a requirement” thing- and by the way- you just proved Beurocrat’s point #53 again!
I understand that you are pro-American but your lack of objectivity is sounding more and more like an apologist. To you it seems America can do no wrong and when you approach everything from this moral high ground you are playing exactly the same game as the jihadis and everyone else you criticise. Ditto to you Craig
Don’t you get it- the Bush Brigade and the Jihadi’s say exactly the same thing and use exactly the same tongue-
“They hate us because…”
“They want to destroy us because….”
“We need to fight this war because…”
“We will not rest until…”
I gave a presentation at a national conference recently where I juxtaposed quotes from Bush and Bin Laden about the “war on terror” and the similarities were striking.
I, for one, refuse to be manipulated by either the Bush Brigade or the Bin Laden Brigade. I refuse to believe that a diplomatic and humane solution cannot be reached. I refuse to succumb to fear that serves a political agenda. I refuse to be “either with us or against us”. I refuse to accept that this or any war “is necessary.”
September 17th, 2006 at 10:27 am
“…Profile: Pope Benedict XVI
As a cardinal, Pope Benedict took an uncompromising stance
Pope Benedict XVI was elected in April 2005, after the death of his predecessor Pope John Paul II.
As head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith - once known as the Holy Office of the Inquisition - from 1981 until his election, the former Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger had developed a reputation as a tough theologian.
He campaigned against liberation theology, which had gained ground among priests in Latin America and elsewhere as a means of involving the Church in social activism and human rights issues.
He also described homosexuality as a “tendency” towards an “intrinsic moral evil” and has previously called for pro-choice politicians to be denied Communion.
In his first year in office, he upheld a ban on men with “deep-seated homosexual tendencies” becoming priests, but was said to be considering relaxing the church’s ban on condoms to allow their use by people with Aids.
He paid respects to the memory of John Paul II, his much-loved Polish predecessor, calling for his canonisation during a visit to the country that drew vast crowds.
Seventeen months into his Papacy, his quotation of a 14th century Byzantine emperor - who said the Prophet Muhammad had brought the world only “evil and inhuman” things - provoked anger in the Muslim world. The Vatican denied that he had intended to offend Muslims.
Conservative
Joseph Ratzinger was born into a traditional Bavarian farming family in 1927, although his father was a policeman.
The eighth German to become Pope, he speaks 10 languages and is said to be an accomplished pianist with a preference for Beethoven.
At the age of 14, he joined the Hitler Youth, as was required of young Germans of the time, but was not an enthusiastic member.
His studies at Traunstein seminary were interrupted during World War II when he was drafted into an anti-aircraft unit in Munich.
He deserted the German army towards the end of the war and was briefly held as a prisoner of war by the Allies in 1945.
His supporters say his experiences under the Nazi regime convinced him that the Church had to stand up for truth and freedom.
The Pope’s conservative, traditionalist views were intensified by his experiences during the liberal 1960s.
He taught at the University of Bonn from 1959, and in 1966 took a chair in dogmatic theology at the University of Tuebingen.
However, he was appalled at the prevalence of Marxism among his students…”
BBC,
désolée, it is not fox news !
September 17th, 2006 at 10:31 am
Anne , good luck !
September 17th, 2006 at 10:53 am
Good for you, Anne, but the first time muslim terrorists murdered personal freinds of mine was 1983. The people who plotted that attack are still alive and well and perpetarting terror attacks in Lebanon. My friends are still dead. You’re welcome to your opinions, but don’t expect me to validate them. There is no “diplomatic solution” to violent criminals who prey on the innocent.
September 17th, 2006 at 11:31 am
I’m sorry for your loss Craig.
Personal friends of mine were killed in Iraq by American soldiers when they had a car crash. The Americans, thinking that the sound was that of a bomb, opened fire and killed them.
They too, are still dead.
September 17th, 2006 at 12:36 pm
He still can’t manage with his mourning sorrow, and is taking it as a vendetta issue ;
we too had murdered soldiers in Lebanon, life must go on ; always thinking about a revenge doesn’t make progress going on, but more like of primitiv tribal pursuit !
By the ways Anne, your are living in Australia, one of my sons is going there for a year exange process with his business cie, he is enjoying it !
September 17th, 2006 at 2:03 pm
Something strage is happening to the Sand Monkey forum. People with actual brains, strong objective arguments, morals and ethics, who are not dogmatic one way or the other like Lynne and Anne are being attracted here. What’s happening? Someone pleaes tell me! Could it be that the SM himself is actually not here? Please DON’T GO away!
September 17th, 2006 at 2:07 pm
Craig, Anne’s argument is perfect. Why is it that you can have the luxury of mourning your loved ones, but the “other side” should just accept their fate as a collaterla damage that is necessary to root out the evil within them? So long as the pattern is that of mutually assured destruction, and revenge based approach, the moderate amongst us will never be heard. Just for once, stop personalizing this Craig, and stop being a cowboy about it. Of course Craig and his likes are not the real problem. They are here, and even though they are spewing digital hate, at least they are here. Perhaps one percent within them they may be interested to hear what the “others” have to say?
September 17th, 2006 at 2:28 pm
Hmmmm. Bureaucrat @ 72, you list of wars or interventions includes places and events at which at least one if not several of the following empires were farting around as well:
The Spanish Empire
The French Empire
The British Empire
The Portugese Empire
The Soviet Empire
If you want, you can throw in the now extinct Ottoman Empire for at least one of them and you’ve got a complete list of other powers for the esteemed academics to study. Let us know when they have produced companion lists showing the links between each of those places and dates and any of the above named entities as well. For the sake of accuracy and thoroughness, which is the hallmark of scholarship, maybe they could throw in incidents involving each of those imperial powers in which the US was not involved. Then your list will be complete.
Funny how loons on the left seem to discount the rest of the planet, pretenting no other nation or people has ever had anything to do with the world’s history. At least you didn’t blame all those events on Dubya. I’ll give you credit for that.
September 17th, 2006 at 2:36 pm
Anne @ 82:
“I, for one, refuse to be manipulated by either the Bush Brigade or the Bin Laden Brigade. I refuse to believe that a diplomatic and humane solution cannot be reached. I refuse to succumb to fear that serves a political agenda. I refuse to be “either with us or against us”. I refuse to accept that this or any war “is necessary.” ”
In otherwords, I refuse to take my head out of the sand. What diplomatic and humane solution do you really think Saddam Hussein would have agreed to? Or Hitler? Or Stalin? Or Pol Pot? I could go on, but I’d be interested in hear your guaranteed plan for how to convince a tyrant to become a nice guy and quit massacring his own people. To date, no diplomatic effort in history has ever been able to achieve that. So please, don’t keep it a secret any longer.
September 17th, 2006 at 2:45 pm
Fortunately for those of you who are complaining about US involvement overseas, you might be in luck: Some economists think that the US real estate bubble is about to burst, and that will be followed by a serious recession, and THAT might mean less of an inclination to spend money on troops overseas. Of course, it would also mean less of an inclination to send foreign aid.
But hey, that will allow other countries to fill the vacuum, like France, and Russia, and Iran. Getting excited yet?
September 17th, 2006 at 3:09 pm
But hey, that will allow other countries to fill the vacuum, like France, and Russia, and Iran. Getting excited yet?
if you mean, “finnish the job”, no ways, you got to drink it out to the end, and France is too lazy or chicken in such a game, is not it ?
September 17th, 2006 at 4:03 pm
Hey Kate. The foreign aide sent by the US is:
$1000 per year to every Jew (man woman and child) in Israel. Israel gets more US direct cash grants than ALL other countries put together. That is only the cash. The US gives Israel other things like the million cluster bombs that were left in Lebanon last month.
US foreign aid created the Ben Laden’s and Shamir’s and other terrorists of the world.
The US NOT sending foreign aid maybe a blessing for world peace.
September 17th, 2006 at 4:10 pm
Oh yes, Craig. The Barbary States. In fact, I’ve often pointed those people who believe that Muslim hatred of the United States is a product of American imperialism to this article at FrontPage by Andrew Bostom:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=22314
September 17th, 2006 at 4:14 pm
Anne,
“Don’t you get it- the Bush Brigade and the Jihadi’s say exactly the same thing and use exactly the same tongue-”
No. I don’t think they are the same in many ways. However, to you, the most important difference might be that Bush will be gone in a few years. Misunderstanders of Islam will still be around, creating mayhem in dozens of countries around the globe.
September 17th, 2006 at 4:36 pm
Ann, I would much rather live in a Country ruled by George W. Bush than by Osama. And I think hundreds of millions of people would agree with me, including many muslims. I’d take Bush the “terrorist” over Osama the mass murderer any day!
Bureaucrat, I think that Iran and Syria and the rest of the ummah (sp?) should stop giving aid to Hezbollah, Hamas and the rest of the world wide muslim terror network. They shouldn’t send them armaments or cash. Then we would have world peace immediately.
September 17th, 2006 at 4:42 pm
bureaucrat - check your stats again, love.
Oh, and for all the Americanswho think USA is evil and Islam is nice and fluffy - or even “just as evil” - please, try living in Afghanistan for a few months. Or Saudi Arabia. Or Iran.
Karen - Hizballah has an extensive network of narcotics smuggling. So does Hamas. Cutting the aid won’t bring peace - killing the terrorists will.
September 17th, 2006 at 4:47 pm
mutually assured destruction
I think that could be used as a new term for Islamic suicide bombings.
September 17th, 2006 at 4:51 pm
Raccon, Karen
That is only because you like beer.
If you developed a taste for sheeps eyes, you might prefer Afghanistan or Saudi.
To each his own.
September 17th, 2006 at 4:56 pm
Raccoon,
O.k.
bureaucrat,
Whether or not I preferred Afghanistan or Saudi is irrelevant. They would not have me
September 17th, 2006 at 5:11 pm
Good point Karen.
I remember when that idiot Laura Bush went out on a crazed campaign to save Afghan women from the mysogenists.
Isnt it great to live in the shadow of the great white liberator and democratiser?
“Another Eighth of March has arrived but still the Afghan women are hostage to the fundamentalists’ claws. The continuation of traitor-loving policies of Mr. Karzai and his sympathetic friends by the indication of US government is still like spears entering deeper and deeper into the injured face of our unfortunate people. Whenever the criminal “Emirs” and their commanders commit another heinous crime, instead of being sued, they are rewarded and receive higher posts”
Revolutionary Assocn of Women of Afghanistan RAWA.org
September 17th, 2006 at 5:14 pm
A nun was gunned down in Somalia.
She was elderly, in her seventies….
…and working at a children’s hospital….
….and she was shot in the back…..
….by the brave Warriors of Allah
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060917/ts_afp/somaliaunrest_060917121503
The peace of Islam….
….find it in a bodybag.
September 17th, 2006 at 5:20 pm
Tommy, calm down. Take a deep breath.
There are idiots in this world.
Go to any american paper (do not soil yourself with Rupert Murdoch trash) and you will find terrible acts.
The city of Oakland CA alone has 100+ murders a year. Not all those murdered are nuns, but I bet some crimes are just as senseless.
Do you think the murder rate in the US is one of the higest in the world because the Judo-Christian faith is a murderous, sick, faith?
Well, by your measuring stick, I think it must be.
Give me a break!
September 17th, 2006 at 5:28 pm
“Do you think the murder rate in the US is one of the higest in the world because the Judo-Christian faith”
I think a more honest question would be: do I believe that even one of those 100+ murders a year in Oakland, that you refer to, is committed because somebody insulted Christianity or was done to spread Christianity?
The answer would be no.
September 17th, 2006 at 5:39 pm
Wow, I’ve never seen people work so hard at being apologists for murderers before.
Bureaucrat and ILikeLynne (is that you eee?) - no point in mincing words with you two. You’re disgusting human beings.
Anne, you’re just in denial. I have no problem with you or what you say. I understand where you are coming from. I have a friend who feels much the same. But I don’t think you’re being quite honest with yourself when you compare what the terrorists do with what their victims do. No diplomacy, no apologies, no mercy for terrorists. They must die and they will and the sooner you and others like you get on the right side of the fight, the fewer innocents like your friends will be caught in the middle. If terrorists didn’t have even the half-hearted moral support of people like you, there wouldn’t be any terrorism today. It would have been stamped out in the 1970s, as it should have been.
September 17th, 2006 at 5:43 pm
Cool it man.
The hunderd deaths per 350,000 population per year were probably due to a variety of reasons: drug, prostitution, gang wars and pleasure killings (you do seem to have the corner of the world’s market on serial murderes and rapists).
No, your American religious murderers send money to Israel to kill Arab peasants in their ancestral homes. These asholes are also known as your fundamentalist Zionist Christian fascists. Their reason for living is to see the world end in a ball of nuclear fire. And perhaps the second coming of the lord. Billions of tax free money gets funneled to Jew settler boys and girls on expropriated Arab land. Your fundamentalists celebrate every attrocity against Muslims. They urge Jewish settlers to foment any agression. They love, absolutely loved, Ariel and Bibi and were hoping against hope that the small excursion into Lebanon would be the start of a nuclear holocaust.
Boy, are they going to be pissed if the lord doesnt show up! Their philosophy isnt conducive to second chances.
September 17th, 2006 at 5:49 pm
Stop telling people to “cool it” - what the hell is your problem? You adopting the terrorist victim mentality to? You come in here and say make the most abusive possible personal attacks and then act like everyone else is the bad guy for reacting poorly to you? Take a fucking hike, dirtbag.
September 17th, 2006 at 5:50 pm
Thanks bureaucrat.
In other words, you got me on that one, so let us change the topic to those evil Zionists instead. I’d rather not. We’ve rehashed the Israeli-Palestinian conflict here a hundred times and it never goes anywhere.
September 17th, 2006 at 6:03 pm
bureaucrat - again, check your info about USA aid to Israel.
And no, I don’t live in SA or Afghanistan because I like beer (I don’t drink alcohol). It’s because I don’t want to die, because I like to be free, and because I don’t want my wife to be gang-raped or stoned to death for not wearing a tent.
September 17th, 2006 at 6:19 pm
She was an Italian nun, not a Somali nun as I’ve seen stated elsewhere:
MOGADISHU (AFP) - Gunmen shot and killed an elderly Italian nun at a children’s hospital in the Islamist-controlled Somali capital amid outrage over
Pope Benedict XVI’s comments about Islam, witnesses said.
Two attackers entered the Austrian-funded SOS Hospital in Mogadishu’s Huriwa District on Sunday and opened fire, killing the nun and a Somali bodyguard before escaping in the ensuing confusion, witnesses and medical workers said.
The nun, believed to be in her 70s, was one of the longest-serving foreign members of the Catholic church in Somalia, a former Italian colony, and was shot while walking from one part of the hospital to another, witnesses said.
I only posted those quotes because I know people are unlikely to load links or watch news unless it fits their world view.
Anne, you need to see what the rest of the world is seeing. Whether you like it or not.
You other fuckers who think that this is justified behavior, to hell with you. May you die a horrible collateral damage death or get beheaded by the people you support. That would be a job well done. Go serve your purpose, meat.
September 17th, 2006 at 6:43 pm
Cool it guys!
September 17th, 2006 at 6:46 pm
Oops soory. I am not supposed to say that.
Ok, why not use an original idea. Your neo-nazi rantings are boring me.
September 17th, 2006 at 7:34 pm
oh, first it’s religious nuts then it’s neo nazis, is it? Everyone is out to get you, dude. Did you forget to put the tinfoil hat on today or what?
September 17th, 2006 at 8:09 pm
The head of Greek Orthodox Christianity weights in - on the side of the Pope - and attacks Islamic extremism in Africa:
http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2006/09/greek-archbishop-christodoulos-joins.html
September 17th, 2006 at 9:12 pm
re post 71 - that’s quite an impressive list of places attacked by the USA although one or two of them were a bit obscure. I am sure a list of countries attacked by Britain and France would have been even longer. However, I went up and down the list a few times and found no mention of Germany. How remiss of the the US Navy to have forgotten World Wars 1 and 2, while having fond memories of knocking off the Marquesas Islands.
September 17th, 2006 at 9:19 pm
yeah, , of course we are the old world, and don’t forget see battles !
September 17th, 2006 at 9:33 pm
I am going to bet that bureaucrat is a canadian who watches lots of Michael Moore type movies and accepts them as the literal truth. As long as you are going to babble about the MIC. This is a bit beyond someone like Bureacrat, but if you are interested in the “MIC” you might check this out
http://www.economist.com/business/displaystory.cfm?story_id=7833815
p.s.: Lynne, if IlikeLynne is actually eee or angry lybian “american” you should check out his blog. The guy is all about reason and diplomacy:)
September 17th, 2006 at 9:40 pm
Craig,
“Rememeber who you are talking to, muslims. If he declares a new crusade you’re all going to die”
it is true that Crusaders killed every living soul in Jerausalem when they got in. this includeds muslims, jews and orthodox christians dude! However your truly pathetic Crag after following your comments here and there.
I would like to remind you Craigy whose ASS GOT KICKED IN THE LAST CRUSADES after all?
since in the last one your asses got kicked outta the land and you were forced to submit by Saladin I would say let it be another crusade Craigy.
Look Dude..like it or not your new crusade will end like your first, laughes best who lauges last! and we always laugh last according to history….LOL!
September 17th, 2006 at 10:06 pm
Moez - yeah, the miserable, oppressed and uneducated peons that are the staple of Islamic states sure are laughing their asses off at the happy, free and rich people of the West.
Uh-huh.
September 17th, 2006 at 10:26 pm
Craig, since you are such a level headed pragamatist, take a look at this link: I do not have any words to post here to prevent you from filtering the link from your world view, but truly, a picture is worth a 1,000 words. Karen, sure you would love to live under the rule of George Bush - unless you were living under his miltary rule in Iraq. How would you feel if that girl was your daughter, your sister, your niece, or yourself?
Enjoy the pictorials, this is US style democracy at its best:
http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_mar2003.htm
September 17th, 2006 at 10:27 pm
Who is eee any way Craig, you terrible, terrible person…
September 17th, 2006 at 10:27 pm
Moez, you ignorant slut, I’m not even catholic.
Thanks for the threatening language, but it’s not necessary. We’re far beyuond threats. Die if you want to. I just don’t want to see your crying face on CNN whining about violence against muslims. Violence is what muslims obviously want, and it’s what they should get. I don’t know if you’re muslim or not, but you want violence too. So do I. The sooner we get started the sooner it will end.
September 17th, 2006 at 10:30 pm
Craig, you are sickening man. Even our Jewish and Israeli friends on this blog, Raccoon included are not as blood-thirsty or rude as you are. Get a grip man and please don’t pull a Kimveer Gill.
September 17th, 2006 at 10:34 pm
This summer, I saw so many Israelis traveling around the world since the war started. Apparently, with the first rocket to hit, these “ardent” (affluent) citizens packed their shit and took an extended holiday until the shit stopped hitting the fan. I love the cock and bull story about the ancestral homeland, but when the shit hits the fan, these “real” Israelis head out to America, Europe, Australia, and Asia. I just love it!
September 17th, 2006 at 10:35 pm
Craig, you terrible, terrible person…
You’re supporting people who murder elderly nuns in cold blood, and you say this about somebody else?
I’ll take it as a compliment. I want you to think I’m a terrible person. The further I can get physically and ideologically away from a miserable cretin like you, the better.
By the way, as a self-professed supporter of terrorism, do you feel that it would be unjust if you happened to be in a building that got hit with a 2000 pound bomb? I’m just curious… I’m guessing we’d answer this question differently.
September 17th, 2006 at 10:38 pm
Even our Jewish and Israeli friends on this blog, Raccoon included are not as blood-thirsty or rude as you are.
I’m not your friend. I’m your enemy. And I was taught to kill my enemies. What were you taught?
September 17th, 2006 at 10:45 pm
By the wya, I’m wondering now how many Iraqis had opinions like the scumbag terrorist supporters on this blog, before they became “innocent victims”?
Maybe some of them aren’t so innocent. Maybe most of them aren’t so innocent. Maybe they deserve what has happened to their country. Will you guys be playing that “innocent victim” role when you get what you are calling for, too?
Interesting. This thread has caused me to re-evaluate (somewhat) my opinions about the war in Iraq. I was never a supporter, but I’m starting to think the Bush administration may have done the right thing.
September 17th, 2006 at 10:53 pm
Wow, super intelectual prowess! A posting on a blog by a handful of anonymous, and partially bored blog groupies has shaped your world view on one of the most defining issues of our time, within the span of less than a couple of days. How do you think I can even take you seriously?
I was taught that my “enemy” is another human being, just like me who eats, shits, loves, makes love, and cries the exact same way as I do. I was taught that violence begets violence, and that love begets love. If you think of me or anyone else as your enemy and your desire is to kill us, I only have pity for you and wish you that you could perhaps stop hating. Otherwise, why are you in a “talking” forum?
September 17th, 2006 at 10:59 pm
It’s hard reading all these emotional responses. You all may think that you differ, but I bet that in essentials, you agree. Truly, no one can defend terrorism. The end does not justify the means. We cannot speak of “muslims” because not all Muslims think or act the same. We can speak of people with rational points of view or those who are violent, unreasonable and misguided—and that can be applied to the members of any race, ethnicity, religion or country. I do fear for muslims if the violence continues because many people will not make that distinction. It is a human tendency to lump members of a group altogether and to blame them all for the actions of some. We see it all the time, and we are seeing it now as a result of the Pope’s remarks, which were offensive to many muslims. Many muslims are now blaming all Christians for his remarks, but the remarks were his and his alone. I just wish that people would stop acting crazy and start seeking some sane, sensible solutions. It is destructive to fuel hatred of one group for another, not matter who is doing it or why. How hard would it be to stay calm and seek understanding?
I am new to posting, and only began after my daughter, Yael, started her own blog. . . I am finding it quite an experience. Thanks to those who found my comments agreeable. . . I have no solutions, but I know what I what: peace, understanding, tolerance, and acceptance in as many countries as possible across the world. Hmmmm I think that the study of Gandhi should be required
September 17th, 2006 at 11:11 pm
Lynne, you are why there is still hope in this world. People like you inspire and encourage me that the human race is not going to self destruct. I came to this forum to exchange some views and express my own, but found only extremist views and dark hatred.
I am a great example of what you allude to. I am a Muslim, who happens to love my booze, devour my ham, and think America is one of the greatest nations in the world and would love nothing more than to see Osama caught and tried.
I happen to think that Islam is heading for a huge disaster and will implode and needs to reinvent itself immediately. We need the help of our fellow human beings to achieve this, but we need it through love, compassion and guidance. How can we achieve it when someone like Craig says “I’m not your friend. I’m your enemy. And I was taught to kill my enemies. What were you taught?”
And please write to me (email above), I need to speak to more people like you!
September 17th, 2006 at 11:14 pm
Craig Said “By the way, as a self-professed supporter of terrorism”
Dude, find one letter, let alone one word, that remotely shows that I accept or condone terrorism. If you do, I will mail you SM’s left testicle.
September 17th, 2006 at 11:20 pm
“I would like to remind you Craigy whose ASS GOT KICKED IN THE LAST CRUSADES after all?
since in the last one your asses got kicked outta the land and you were forced to submit by Saladin I would say let it be another crusade Craigy.”
I suppose we could have one more to settle the score. Who would you place your money on?
September 17th, 2006 at 11:21 pm
And what is this terrormongering vis-a-vis Lynne? Lynne is a mature persona and can get in touch with whomever she wants. Just because you don’t agree with my moderate thoughts, you don’t need to slander me. What happened to freedom of expression, and agreeing to disagree? What happened to John Stuart Mill?
September 17th, 2006 at 11:21 pm
I was taught that violence begets violence
You were taught right, then. So what’s all this whining and crying about violence being met with violence? That’s what you were taught to expect.
September 17th, 2006 at 11:25 pm
That’s what I was taught to expect from human beings who are still laregely classified as animals - not the ones who like to think of themselves as evloved.
September 17th, 2006 at 11:30 pm
Come on Craig, you can’t be that nasty? There must be a nicer side to you? Do you buy your girlfriend flowers impulsively, just because you love her and withouth an occassion? Do you evern call your parents at some random hour, just to feel the warmth and comfort of hearing their voice and knowint that they are still number one? Do you ever do a random act of kindness to a complete stranger, not expecting credit or a pat on the back, but just because you felt compassion? Do you ever look at the stars on a clear day and smiled to be alive at that very moment? Did a child in your life do something so impulsive, and show unconditional love that it made you tingle?
Or do you just want to kill your enemies all the time?
September 17th, 2006 at 11:43 pm
Damn! Now the pope has completely capitulated:
http://jimtreacher.com/archives/001472.html
September 17th, 2006 at 11:47 pm
The Pope is smart and I respect him for that decision. It is not because I was offended by his comments, but because he took the noble approach of putting himself above the mob. It’s when you have a mentally deranged or phsychologically troubled person, the last thing you want to do is confront or antagonize them. Your approach, as the wiser, more intelligent player, is to attempt to “cure” them over the long run. The Pope is the shrink, and if I were a Christian I would be very proud of him and my faith.
September 17th, 2006 at 11:51 pm
#123…
uh… er… I wonder if SM would … accept the loss
September 17th, 2006 at 11:53 pm
SM is benevolant, and he would gladly hand over his left nut to settle an argument
September 18th, 2006 at 12:09 am
bureaucrat #87…and how much aid to Africa? How much to countries in the Middle East? How much to countries with majority Muslim populations?
September 18th, 2006 at 1:03 am
“SM, can you please put this guy’s picture up on your blog and increase exposure?
This piece of crap’s picture is already posted behind the security desk where I work. I would also urge SM to post it on his fine blog.
September 18th, 2006 at 1:29 am
“Can our governments be pressed, influenced to seek diplomatic solutions? Can and will citizens of our countries ask for dialogue and compromise?”
Lynne, these poeople that we are engaged in a life and death struggle with have repeatedly stated that the reason that they will eventually win is because they love death more than we love life. After statements like that, I really don’t see what we could have a dialog about. They want us either dead or converted to their perverted form of Islam. End of story.
September 18th, 2006 at 1:40 am
“Listen. And understand. That terminator is out there. It can’t be bargained with. It can’t be reasoned with. It doesn’t feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead.” from the movie Terminator
I watched this movie last night. Could be a quote about radical Islam. Scary.
Almost perfect, but I would reword it this way:
“Listen. And understand. The Islamist Jihadi is out there. He can’t be bargained with. He can’t be reasoned with. He doesn’t feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And he absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead.”
Preferably said to a politically correct left wing nitwit who is in complete denial about the severity of the radical Islamic threat.
September 18th, 2006 at 1:52 am
Here is the deal, Curt, et al. The people who love death more than life are not who we are asking the US and the world to engage with. These are criminals by any standard, and within the looking glass of any religion or culture. Do you think Egyptians enjoy their summer resports being bombed? Do you think Jordanians like it when their tourists are killed.
What we are saying is that these terrorists and their ring leaders have found a currency to trade on, and to recruit even more critical mass. And the funny thing is, the US is not even fighting terrorism in Iraq, the terrorists are migrating en masse to Iraq to take a shot at the US. Baghdad is about the most desirable posting for any terrorist starting out their career.
Give the Palestinians their fucking country, give Lebanon and Syria whatever petty land they are squabbling about, disengage from Iraq and allow multinational forces to do the dirty work of cleaning up in the mess you started there.
Then, when all of that is done, engage IMMEDIATELY in an all our offensive in creating a GLOBAL project to eradicate the roots of radical Islam. Whether you like it or not, THAT is the only way this impending clash of civilizations will be averted, and that is how terrorism can be thwarted. Whether you like it or not, America and its allies are the only force that are capable of achieving that. And when you do, you will find a lot of moderate Arabs and Muslims who are otherwise impotent, clapping for you,
You American right wing pro-war supporters drive me crazy when you are so fixated on what you percieve as the other camp’s desire to force you to “dialogue” with the enemy, when all the other camp is saying, “Fuckheads, you are fighting and killing the wrong people” and in the process trebling, quadrupling the critical mass of your potential terrorists.
Five years on, where is Osama and his possy? Can you honestly tell me with a clear conscience that the US with all its might and fire power can’t find this mother fucker? GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK! Killing and torturing pathetic Iraqis and that’s what you call the war on terror?
September 18th, 2006 at 2:09 am
“Can our governments be pressed, influenced to seek diplomatic solutions? Can and will citizens of our countries ask for dialogue and compromise?”
To answer Lynne, in light of my explanation to Curt. Yes and Yes!
The US, Israeli and European governments should immediately seek long lasting diplomatic solutions to all the “excuses” that are being used by radical Islamists to sponsor and popularize their cause. Stop supporting corrupt governments! Because in the end, Arabs get disenchanted and they vote in Islamists. Stop supporting the Mubaraks, the Hassan’s and for the love of God Qadaffi!
Just say the word, and hundreds, thousands, millions of democracy loving, capitalism-thirsty, US-sympathetic, freedom-hungry, moderate, non radical Arabs and Muslims will come to your support, and will take charge of their societies. And their first project will be to dismantle radical Islam and render it a benign force for good, Islam 2.0 adapted for our times. But they can only do that when the US, Israel and the West stop stoking the provocations that give currency to Jihadists, and stop supporting the corrupt regimes in the region.
So simple! Why isn’t any body listening?….
September 18th, 2006 at 2:11 am
“This summer, I saw so many Israelis traveling around the world since the war started. Apparently, with the first rocket to hit, these “ardent” (affluent) citizens packed their shit and took an extended holiday until the shit stopped hitting the fan. I love the cock and bull story about the ancestral homeland, but when the shit hits the fan, these “real” Israelis head out to America, Europe, Australia, and Asia. I just love it!”
Hey bone head! Do you mean to tell me that you would keep your wife and children in a war jone if you had the resources to get them out? What a putz!
September 18th, 2006 at 2:18 am
Hey bone head! Do you mean to tell me that you would keep your wife and children in a war jone if you had the resources to get them out? What a putz!
I knew you were all Israelis! Shalom! And the answer is if this was my land, and I truly, vehemently, and passionately believe that it was my promised kingdom that so many of my people died to attain it, erm, umm. actually, YES! I would be a little embarassed infront of my patrons and sponsors (US and Europe) that I don’t have the balls to at least show solidarity for my beloved mother land.
However, since I think the concept of nation state in its apertheidic, dogmatic, religiously fanatic way that is applied in the notion of “jewish” homeland, or any religious homeland, is fundamentally flawed, then the answer is fuck now, I would get the hell out of there and go to Miami or Vegas to catch a tan. And please, Curt from Houston, extend me some civility and stop calling me names. Just because you are a Texan, that doesn’t give you the license to be ill mannered.
September 18th, 2006 at 2:19 am
italics off
September 18th, 2006 at 2:20 am
September 18th, 2006 at 2:20 am
Off I tell you, off!
September 18th, 2006 at 2:21 am
Hmmmm
September 18th, 2006 at 2:21 am
# 112 I would feel terrible (if you are talking about the girl who was raped and murdered by the U.S. soldiers). However, that was one girl and one family. How many girls and families did this happen to under Saddam? How many people is this happening to in Iraq right now, by their fellow muslim brothers? Obviously, the war was a mistake. And when I say that, I am saying it with regards to what was in the best interest of Americans. I feel bad for the average Iraqi too. They went from a shitty situation to another shitty situation. But how their Arab brothers can kill them in cold blood and in such numbers is mind boggling. That is the problem, not U.S. military rule. I don’t care why they do it. I don’t care about root causes. Because root causes have their root causes. I just see pure evil. Oh, and I didn’t look at your link. Seeing the name Fisk was enough for me.
September 18th, 2006 at 2:25 am
Lynne Lover,
Approximately 10,000 Lebanese with Canadian passports also abandoned ship. I guess they really don’t love Lebanon, eh?
September 18th, 2006 at 2:29 am
“Just say the word, and hundreds, thousands, millions of democracy loving, capitalism-thirsty, US-sympathetic, freedom-hungry, moderate, non radical Arabs and Muslims will come to your support, and will take charge of their societies. And their first project will be to dismantle radical Islam and render it a benign force for good, Islam 2.0 adapted for our times. But they can only do that when the US, Israel and the West stop stoking the provocations that give currency to Jihadists, and stop supporting the corrupt regimes in the region.”
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
September 18th, 2006 at 2:33 am
Bold off.
September 18th, 2006 at 2:34 am
No, Karen (are you the same backpacker Karen from the other post? Are you really white trash like that other dude said?), the Lebanese are more pragmatic about their country - AS IS THE REST OF THE WORLD THAT IS NOT BASED ON RELIGION.
It’s not their “ancestral homeland” of yore and wonder. They are not making it out to be this genetically coded right that was given to them from one gizillion years ago when some dude decided it was not cool to have cheeseburgers or prawn cocktails. Lebanon is for all Lebanese: Christians, Muslims, Jews, and Rastafarians. Israel is a homeland for Jews. If someone gave me a homeland that was uniquely for me and my tight knit peeps, I would sure as hell stay to protect it! Did you stay during the war, or did you take off to Canada? Come on now, do tell.
September 18th, 2006 at 2:34 am
Italics off.
September 18th, 2006 at 2:34 am
One more time.
Italics off.
September 18th, 2006 at 2:35 am
Italics off.
September 18th, 2006 at 2:36 am
Karen, have some freaking balls and look at the link! I dare you.
September 18th, 2006 at 2:37 am
To Curt from Houston: I understand what you are saying, but I’d like to refer you to comments made between several of us (LibyanWarrior, ILIKELYNNE, and myself). We know that you cannot work directly with terrorists, as most of them are at this time beyond being reasonable. What would work best is to put some pressure on governments to not support terrorism within their countries. Provide support for the plans, actions and ideas of those moderate people who have something to offer their countries. People who were formerly disengaged will likely develop more moderate views. I believe that in the “war on terrorism” the US completely miscalculated the situation and best course of action and has increased hatred of the US by its misguided actions. The situation in Iraq is terrible with just about anyone who can manage it trying to flee to safety. If the situation is not a civil war there, it is very close. I am myself at a complete loss as to where to start, but perhaps others have a better understanding than I do. I just got back from having pizza with my son, Brett, and this was our dinner topic. When I think of the plight of the people there, I am worried sick. We agreed that the situation there is desperate (we both read Bagdad Girl’s blog—she is now in the UAE until things improve in Iraq). The actions in Iraq are creating more radicals, more extremists, daily. There is dwindling support in the US for the war in Iraq . We can see that things are worse there. Diplomatic efforts should be the main strategy here, because I cannot see how this can be solved militarily. You know, at least we are sharing ideas here and that is a start. We may not agree but we are at least talking to each other. We do all agree, I think, that we want things to be better for all of us.
September 18th, 2006 at 2:39 am
“Hmmmm I think that the study of Gandhi should be required”
Lets start with this:
1. Gandhi told the british that they should surrender their island to Hitler and oppose him by non-violent methods.
2. Hitler told the British that they should just kill Gandhi and their problem would be solved.
Craig, Is the lovelynne guy eee/angrylybian”american” or not?
September 18th, 2006 at 2:41 am
If it is this is a funny comment that I googled at random
http://www.sandmonkey.org/2006/04/04/zarqawi-is-fired/
check out comment number five.
September 18th, 2006 at 2:43 am
For the love of God, mike, craig, curt stop being so fucking gestapo! Who the fuck is eee angry libyan that you seem to think I am pretending not to be???? Go get a life.
And once again, I AM IN AWE OF LYNNE.
September 18th, 2006 at 2:45 am
Okay, since there seems to be plenty of Jews here, I mean this with the utmost respect and I swear I am not being fresh.
Can someone explain to me why your women have to shave their heads off, and then wear a wig???
September 18th, 2006 at 2:51 am
It would not hurt us in our discussion to practice a little diplomacy, respecting differences in ideas and opinions. We all come from different perspectives.
September 18th, 2006 at 2:53 am
Out with Sand Moneky and in with Lynne as our new moderator! Lynne, you need to get yourself a BLOG!
September 18th, 2006 at 2:55 am
And I mean that with affection (it sounded sarcastic when I read it again). Honestly, you are a perfect example of an unbiased, intelligent person who is trying to approach in the best possible way. Your objectivity will make for an amazing basis of discussion. Ask Yael to set you up on blogspot!
September 18th, 2006 at 2:57 am
AngryL, come out of the closet. We know it’s you. I can tell by the way you like to play around with your name that it is you. That, and your passive-aggressive style of ranting.
September 18th, 2006 at 2:57 am
Realizing that my LoveLynne nick may appear a little stalkerish, and feeling that I have sufficiently expressed my admiration of this lovely lady, I am now reverting to my permanent nick on this forum.
September 18th, 2006 at 2:58 am
If that is the way you want it, AngryL, we will call you Pepper Greg for now on.
September 18th, 2006 at 2:59 am
Its typical of fear and hate mongerers. Call me something nasty, so you can divert people from what I am saying. Hat off for perfect execution because I almost fell for it. I just take my tongue out and tell you
September 18th, 2006 at 3:00 am
I think tommy is really Osama Bin Laden, and he is here to see what his ratings are. Come on, admit it O’Sam.
September 18th, 2006 at 3:00 am
Have it your way, PG.
Like a scene out of South Park:
“Mom! AngryLibyan won’t come out of the closet!”
September 18th, 2006 at 3:01 am
How about Tommy (F) of Mommy
September 18th, 2006 at 3:01 am
We made a good start, but I can see that we are not going to be able to solve the problems of the world tonight
Overall, we had a good discussion—you have all given me things to think about. SM is going to faint when he sees all the comments that his little post generated! Goodnight, shalom, lynne
September 18th, 2006 at 3:02 am
Ma chadash? Lailatov…
September 18th, 2006 at 3:04 am
Tommy: Ma ze “wanker” beanglit?
September 18th, 2006 at 3:05 am
The answer is simple. Tommy!
September 18th, 2006 at 3:12 am
You know it is AngryLibyan. Only the AngryOne is crazy enough to respond to his own questions. It is little disturbing to see an individual maintain a dialogue with himself. Take some Ritaln, AngryL. I’ll be happy to call you Pepper Greg if you wish. Lynne is Jewish, right? I didn’t know until she said ’shalom.’ I guess you didn’t want to associate yourself with your old persona. Sorry I blew your cover.
September 18th, 2006 at 3:15 am
Well, since no one is answering my questions, I am answering them. For instance, I am still waiting on the “no hair, yes wig” dichotomy! Tommy (F) of Your Mommy, please explain since you are a present day jew, at one with your “persona”.
September 18th, 2006 at 3:17 am
Tommy, this “guy” seems more like Bobber (remember him? or maybe you don’t) only a little bit more political. He also seems like Abla/o who as of a couple months ago was a lesbian. He doesn’t seem like the Angry Lybian or eee. He is quicker and literate.
Thanks for the advice Greg, but I don’t want balls.
September 18th, 2006 at 3:19 am
Tommy, you should have known when she said her daughter’s name was Yael.
September 18th, 2006 at 3:19 am
You don’t want balls attached to your body, or any where near your body?
Tommy, another question for you: How do you keep a cock sucker in suspense?
September 18th, 2006 at 3:20 am
Could be somebody else, Karen. Yes, he does seem a bit more literate than the AngryOne. He is a bit obnoxious and definitely strange. If he can just settle down a little bit he might be OK. At least, for a while.
(Then again, he is already accusing me of being a Jew, so he could be one of our old friends, like eee or AngryL.)
Pepper Greg,
I’m not a Jew. I’m mostly of German extraction.
September 18th, 2006 at 3:21 am
I only vaguely remember Bobber. Who had a daughter named Yael, previously. Was it Bobber?
September 18th, 2006 at 3:22 am
So to be a Jew is an accusation these days?
September 18th, 2006 at 3:25 am
Yes. If you were to call me an Australian aborigine that would be an accusation also. It doesn’t mean I have anything against aborigines either.
September 18th, 2006 at 3:29 am
Accusation implied a negative connotations. But since you are German, than you are struggling with the language by default, and so I will not shit on you much. But remember
ACCUSATION, bad. Nicht Goot. Varoom?
Now let’s go back to basics Hanz, Doe, a deer, a female deer…
September 18th, 2006 at 3:30 am
#136
Left nuts not withstanding, I agree that supporting dictatorial regimes works against US interests in the long term. It does little to help the people living under these regimes.
You bring up an interesting point though, one I have heard quite a bit. Basically it is an insistance that there be a dialog and negotiation process, in order to resolve the outstanding issues. I’ll talk to that in a minute.
Right now lets talk about the process and not the goals. The fundamental danger in this process is that we have been down this road before. Our historical prototype is Neville Chamberlin. No western politician wants to let themselves be labeled a Chamberlin, as his name is now synonymous with appeasement, and attempting to diffuse a war before it exploded. As he demonstrated, taking the high road, attempting to diffuse the war before it starts, sometimes fails very badly. The evil people mistake concern for containment of hostilities as weakness. And then the act on that. No western politician is willing to risk being the next Chamberlin, especially given the history of agreement breaking by the evil people, that the western politicians would have to overlook to pursue this path. Assume this is impossible without a very significant gesture of good will and good intentions. Something quite Gandhi-like.
Now for the goals. You presume that the nature of the conflicts is about land. This is a nice fiction, that many on the left have. If this were the case, that it was about the land, then Gaza ought to be a paradise by now. They have land which the Israelis quit. If this conflict were about land, then the conflict in Gaza ought to be over. But it isn’t. This was a turning point for the western world, a test if you will of what Israel can expect if it simply acquiesces to demands that it quit the land. The lefties, pushing hard, insisted that peace would erupt. Israel took this risk. If the lefties were right, and Gaza became a heaven on earth, assuming that the conflict was about land and land alone, then everyone wins. Then there is no excuse not to quit Samaria and Judea.
Unfortunately for the lefties and their argument, this is not what happened. The “occupation” ended. Gaza was Judenrein. If the conflict was about the land, then there would be peace.
And then Gaza attacked, and sustained the attack for a long time. And then they invaded Israel.
Land for peace ended then.
Apart from the really hard lefties, no one I know with a left wing bent believes that the old formula works. They tell me now how sorry they are that they believed it was about land.
If it was about land, then when you give land, they will give you peace. That didn’t happen, so your only possible conclusion is that it isn’t about land.
And that gets to what it is about. It is about existance. Or as some of the more vocal arab voices have told me, if Israel gives up all its land, it will have all its peace. Snarky, but a non-starter.
So now a new formula will be needed. What emerges probably won’t look anything like the old formula. Well, not from any Israeli government that does not wish to be toppled the next day. Israelis again, including a fair number of the lefties, no longer believe in the land for peace formula. They understand that giving up land to an implacable enemy hell bent upon their destruction is not a long term survival strategy. It will be viewed as a weakness.
Just like Neville Chamberlin was viewed as weak by the evil people.
What I am saying is that the calculus is broken.
You are right, in that we need to stop supporting tyrannical regimes, to stop giving them covers or support. The world oil market is not a sound basis for political decision making. The US state department unfortunately is quite complicit in this.
We (the US) need to support free societies that emerge from their darkness, and continue supporting such. Israel, Lebanon, Turkey, and a few others are worth supporting. Relatively democratic, relatively free, though there are strong islamist undercurrents in both countries. Countries that don’t allow for free speech, dissenting opinion, a fair and open and independent judiciary, freedom of religion, equality under law, and the right for citizens to redress grievances against the government, are ones we should eschew.
I would like to see the peoples of that area enjoy the same freedoms and rights that we hold dear. I just don’t think it is right to shove it down their throats. Unfortunately, some of the most anti-freedom committed groups are trying to game the system to make sure there is a vote, a single vote, to get them into power, so that they can claim the mantle of democratic election, and then do away with the process. This is history repeating itself with different groups.
The US not being able to find Osama with “all our might”, yeah, well, this is a problem. Unfortunately one that again our intelligence services and state department all bear some responsibility for.
Removing the root causes sounds like a great idea. Since we know it is not land as a root cause, and that existance likely is a root cause, could you maybe suggest a root cause that everyone would agree that needs to be solved? Cause I can’t find one. Hard lefties still cling to land, but this has been thoroughly disproven. And if you cannot articulate a root cause that is meaningful, would you mind giving up the notion that there is a root cause that is solvable? Reversing the existance of Israel, while a wet dream of many, is a non-starter. Won’t happen. So then what precisely is left? I would like to know.
Are the right wingers pro war? No. The best war is the one you can avoid fighting. Any other war sucks. Really sucks for the civilians caught in the cross fire. And lots are. If your leadership or shadow leadership has a raging boner for war, then maybe it is time for a new leadership. One with a clue would be a good start.
I would love to see a March 14th style popular coup in any number of countries in the ME. Have the people say “enough crap, stop fucking with us, and get the hell out” Lebanon made me hopeful that this is possible in the ME. Unfortunately the unfinished work in Lebanon got in the way of the progress in Lebanon, with a vengance.
The terrorists and evil people made a choice. And regular people paid a price for their choice. While you say that the reaction to the terrorists quadruples the problem, lots of people I have emailed and spoken to suggest they are fed up with the unfinished business.
You are right about Iraq though. It has become a jihadi heaven weigh station. Saddam was aweful to his people, and the mass graves they have found justify in my mind forcing him from power. Unfortunately the jihadis seem so hell bent on getting target practice that they don’t mind turning the country into a massive killing field. Complete with a rending of an old shia-sunni-kurd schism. I haven’t seen the Lutherans rampaging through the Episcopalean neighborhoods and taking pot shots and small scale explosive autos at the Mormons. Just takes a few bad apples or jihadis to turn a hopeful revitalization and regrowth into a festering gangrenous wound.
We shouldn’t protect the despots and fanatics that fuel this wound. And we should stay away from the governments that oppress their people. We should support their opposition.
September 18th, 2006 at 3:35 am
Listen Pepperhead,
When you blurt out that “Tommy is a Jew” you’re making an assumption, a false assumption. I can see no reason why you would make such an assumption unless you were implying something negative. Furthermore, I mentioned that I am mostly of German extraction, not that I am from Germany or speak German, assclown. Another false assumption on your part.
Your a troll. So unless you have relevant to say, I’m not going to respond to you from here on out. How about upping your game?
September 18th, 2006 at 4:15 am
Lynn said her daughter was named Yael. It’s a Hebrew name.
September 18th, 2006 at 4:46 am
Gotcha, Karen.
September 18th, 2006 at 5:50 am
What happened? I went to sleep, woke up, and all this?
Craig has gone almost feral with his attacks on other posters.
I’m not in denial Craig- and I don’t support terrorists, passively or otherwise. I simply choose to withdraw myself from the “us and them” which I find is not conducive to anything and merely supports ongoing violence.
If I was denial I would not be able to do the work that I do. Yes I actually do something other than posting on other people’s blogs all day- I actually work in Counter Terrorism- some even consider me “an expert” in the area (their words not mine). My work has given me many insights into the minds of the jihadi’s and, guess what, they display the same kind of zealousness, intolerance and one- mindedness of many people who are pro-US.
Once you choose to be either “us” or “them”- no matter who the “us” or the “them” is to you- you have allowed yourself to become part of the game- you have played right into the hands of both Bush and the jihadi’s. You have become part of their ongoing war.
Tell me, how do you think it is that in Iraq, there are at least 5 or 6 suicide bombings a day? That’s an amazing arsenal of people who are prepared to blow themselves up for something. Not all of them are salafi’s, some are former Baathists and others are foreigners. Tell me- why is it that four British Muslims who showed no outward signs of being “radical or fundamental” decide that they will strap bombs to themselves and blow up their fellow countrymen? (Read the MI5 report on the London bombings if you want to know more). Why? Because they too have allowed themselves to believe that the world is black and white, that it is divided into the camps of “good and evil” (GB)) of the “believers and unbelievers” (OBL). The message left by Mohammed Siddique Khan, the ringleader of the London bombings says it all…
“Your democratically elected governments continuously perpetuate
atrocities against my people all over the world. And your support of
them makes you directly responsible, just as I am directly
responsible for protecting and avenging my Muslim brothers and
sisters.
Until we feel security, you will be our targets. And until you stop
the bombing, gassing, imprisonment and torture of my people we will
not stop this fight. We are at war and I am a solider. Now you too will
taste the reality of this situation…. ”
The kind of political fear that Bush et al are using to drum up support for the war on terror has led to Muslims believing that they are being victimised, alientated and marginalised as the objects of fear, making them extremely vulnerable to exploitation by the jihadi’s who prey on this notion of a ‘US and Zionist conspiracy to destroy Islam as a world religion’. One team plays off the other- that’s why I refuse to be a part of any team. We can’t trust our pollies and so called ‘religious leaders’ to find a diplomatic solution because it serves their own agendas not to.
September 18th, 2006 at 6:10 am
Anne, if you work in Counterterrorism and you DON’T have an “us vs. them” mentality, you should QUIT. Seriously. What the hell are you doing in counterterrorism if you don’t see terrorists as the ENEMY?
You can’t trust “our pollies?” Hon, I don’t trust YOU to be serving your own country’s best interests. It seems to be that you’re WAY too politically biased and are too much of a moral relativist to be honest in your assessments or your analysis. PLEASE, get a job where political bias and a complete LACK of moral bias is an asset, not a liability. PLEASE. I’m literally begging you.
People like you are almost as dangerous as the terroristst you are paid to watch. (I say “almost” simply because I’m sure you wouldn’t kill someone for not sharing your beliefs.)
And this:
The kind of political fear that Bush et al are using to drum up support for the war on terror has led to Muslims believing that they are being victimised, alientated and marginalised as the objects of fear,
…is crap. You claim you work in CT, but you have an appalling lack of appreciation or knowledge of history, even recent (pre-2001) history. Utterly appalling.
My guess (my hope!) is that you’re probably on the “janitorial staff.” MAYBE a secretary. If not, then I beg you again to find another line of work to which you are better suited.
September 18th, 2006 at 6:16 am
…Hezbollah violated the laws of war,” said Amnesty’s secretary-general Irene Khan.
There is the problem…. “The Laws of War” as defined by AI.
I was not aware that wars are conducted like boxing matches with referees and rules and laws. War is a bloody and violent business. The objective is to implement your political goals by force. And like it or not, battles no-holds-barred fights. The ideas of chivalrous knights conducting a gentleman’s war on behalf of the state are myths.
Trying to conduct war by “rules”, especially rules determined by a leftist anti-American organization, is a doomed to failure. War, if it comes to it, must be fought a quickly and effeciently as possible towards a clear objective.
So, the surprise here is not that AI decided that Hezbollah did not follow AI’s “laws”. The surprise is that AI could overcome it rabid leftist hatred of all things western long enough to condem Hezbollah.
AI caters to their sponsors… people who believe that all violence and repression is bad. It is a lofty idea, but totally detatched from the reality of human nature. AI needs to stick to their core mission, freeing prisoners of conciousness. No country needs, nor seeks, their endorsement in matter of warfare. No one wants them to equate the most vial of criminals as being the same as those who speak their minds against government abuses of power.
So for those of who live in the real world: Who cares what AI thinks of military conduct?
September 18th, 2006 at 6:36 am
Now I am worried…
Please do not patronise me- I actually have a PhD in the area! What do you have? I find it insulting that you should assume that I work as either a cleaner or a secretary. Why? Is it because I am female and Muslim and so that is all that I am good for or capable of?
There are many facets to counter terrorism including the necessary measures currently being put in place to manage capability and threat. These measures include laws and giving special powers to police and intelligence organisations to apprehend people of interest. There is also a growing and much needed realisation that the counter terrorism effort needs to also target the social environment in which radical Islamists are able to exploit people, usually young men, and recruit them as jihadists. Counter terrorism can no longer rely only on managing capability and threat, it also needs to explore and address motivation.
You cannot ignore or deny that the current social climate in Western countries presents a REAL threat and encourages Muslims to engage with the notion of a global conspiracy against Islam. This kind of thinking is dangerous because it is what leads people to pay heed to the message of the Islamists.
The ONLY WAY to combat this is to encourage Muslims in Western countries to engage with a different kind of notion- one that is NOT BASED ON US AND THEM. One in which they can identify as active social, economic and political citizens of their countries.
Now, in your small minded, ignorant little head, this may not seem as important as kiling the enemy but it is the only long term solution. If not there will be generations of potential terrorists still to come.
September 18th, 2006 at 6:38 am
“I actually work in Counter Terrorism- some even consider me “an expert” in the area (their words not mine). My work has given me many insights into the minds of the jihadi’s and, guess what, they display the same kind of zealousness, intolerance and one- mindedness of many people who are pro-US.”
So full of shit your eyes are brown. Or maybe you work at the CIA. Full of shit either way.
September 18th, 2006 at 6:45 am
Mike- is that all you can come up with? My eyes are brown and I’m full of shit? You made me laugh but that’s about all. How about trying something intelligent next time.
September 18th, 2006 at 6:57 am
To peppergreg (previously Iloveyourmother *grin*),
There are only a very tiny minority of women who shave their heads upon marriage within Judaism –they are part of the ultra (ultra, really ultra) orthodox. The ones who shave their heads do not support the State of Israel because the Messiah hasn’t come yet. The Haredi (as folks of this strain are called) are pretty much roundly despised by other Israelis because they are religious lunatics.
During the war, very few Israelis left –most cancelled vacations that were planned (this is summer, you know) and many who were on vacation and business around the world returned.
And to clarify, the state of Israel was largely established by secular (non-religious) Jews with the idea that there would be complete separation of religion and State –and indeed complete disdain for religion in general.
September 18th, 2006 at 7:05 am
Actually to clarify there are women in the “we are extremely religious but not quite as nuts as the really extreme” among the orthodox community do shave their heads and wear wigs. Those who wear wigs may or may not support the State of Israel pre-messiah descending. The really really extremely religious women don’t wear wigs they only put scarves over their heads. They look pretty miserable most of the time too.
The orthodox (all strains, there are like a ton of different strains) are a minority in Israel. Most Israelis are secular (not at all practicing) to mildly practicing.
September 18th, 2006 at 7:56 am
just like me who eats, shits, loves, makes love, and cries the exact same way as I do
Not loves, he cann’t, puritanism castration !
September 18th, 2006 at 10:17 am
Dear Yael, thanks for your explanation. I appreciate it.
Kranky, your diatriabe was excellent, except for one critical flaw. The “Gaza was an experiment in withdrawal” song sounds good on paper, but is a complete fallacy, and actually an insulting joke to many Palestinians who have exprienced this benevolant unilateral Israeli withdrawal.
The Israeli withdrawal from Gaza was not withouth a complete destruction of the economic infrastructure on their way out, a complete encirclment of Gaza, a complete destruction of the political and administrative base (Hamas or not) and every other trick in the Israeli opression hand book FOR THE VERY same purpose that someone like you can sit down, and with a puprotedly clean conscience claim that it is not “about the land”. As much as right wing Israeli apologists would love to try to tell us the contrary, but it is all about the land.
If you were to read deeper in what I am saying, it is never about the land per se in a literal physical sense. It is about the symbol of the land, and the psyche of occupation. If Israel were to decide to become a law abiding citizen of the international community and end its illegal occupation of other countries, and the US follows suit, the outcome of that is not insta-paradise (just add water!) as you so naiively put it.
But the more important outcome is that there will no longer be Islamist excuses to “fight the infidel” and mutually assured destrcution. Multinational forces are okay, and it will work in Lebanon. Unfortunately, the only way Israel accepted this solution was not because they had achieved their stated goals of destroying Hizbullah, but because they failed to erradicate Hizbullah, and were clever enought to bail out quickly before their image and that of the almighty IDF was tarnished any further.
Now for the root causes of terrorism, here are three of the top of my head but will think of more as I go:
1. Poverty and socioeconomic mariginalization of millions of young Arabs and Muslims due to economic mismanagment, corruption and politicla sclerosis in the Arab world, primarily as a result of the support of the West and the US of vindictive, oppressive, heartless regimes that have treated their citizens at times far worse than anything Israel has done.
When you young and impressionable, backed up against a wall, humiliated an defeated Islamic radicalism offers a uniquley gratifying form of salvation. It’s not an exuse for terrorism, but it is the sad reality.
Stop supporting your puppet regimes for your insatiable appetite for cheap oil and blind support of Israel which is controling your political system, and things will start to improve. Stop supporting Sadi Arabia, where most of the 9-11 attackers came, because Saudi Arabia is the root of all evil in terms of the particularly arcid brand of fanaticism that was exported to the rest of the world.
2. Support moderate Arabs and Muslims directly, and indireclty by withdrawing from occupied lands and therefore giving them the moral ground to start an immediate and universal project to redefine, recreate and completely upgrade Islam (Islam 2.0) in order to dismantle the current form of orthodoc, militant, regressive form of the religion, and to create a separation of state and religion. This also takes away the most important weapon the terrorists have - the excuse to wage a holy war against the infidels. And while you are at it, stop killing women and children, stop torturing any body, period.
3. Devise a long-term far reaching global campaign to target the philisophical, theological campaign devised and implemented by moderate Arabs and Muslims to target education. Radicals are not made, they are bred over a long period of time. Get them when they are young. Teach them how to think for themslesves. Teach them tolerance. The world spends 900 billion dollars a year on military expenditures, half of which is allocated to the US alone. If only 1 percent of that US figure figure was ear marked for educational and public information campaigns, and the another 1 percent for economic restructring, and another 1 percent for building political institutions in the Arab and Islamic worlds, perhaps ther remaining 98 percent could be given back to the US tax payers, or invested in salvaging American public services, education system. But how would the coporate military establishment feel about that in the US? Hmm, I wonder.
September 18th, 2006 at 10:48 am
The biggest problem the middle east has suffered in the latter years of the twentieth century was the meddling of the French and British empires as they departed, followed by the funding and arming of virtually any destabelizing influence that could be found by the US in an attempt to implant armed supporters in every region. Unfortunately this worked in the same way as the arming of Ho Chi Minh’s forces during WWII, once the target starts trying to influence events for their own group and not the US, the relationship breaks down and the whole party ends in a fight.
Take a look at the US support of the governments of each country and you’ll see each one being funded and supported in turn, the revolutionaries of Iran, Sadam Hussein, Osama Bin Laden, they’ve all been on the US payroll at some time. As you’d expect, when you fund and arm enough people to fight each pther, you’ll end up with a whole bunch of people armed and ready to fight for their own purposes. Destabilize enough people and you end up with a region of destabilized countries, not rocket science.
And if you think that killing everyone who disagrees with you will solve the problem, then you’re looking at an extermination on a scale to make the Holocaust look tame, and that’s not practical nor possible. As a replacement theory, why not try getting the nations who are causing you trouble to stop endorsing the activities of these terrorists and induce them to start censuring and restricting the spread of this insanity. Maybe spend some money on stopping them fighting instead of paying more money to another group to fight them for you? Who knows, the peace idea might spread. I despise terrorists, i despise those who educate them to terrorise far, far more. But killing them all isn’t the answer. You haven’t got the money or the stomach for it, no matter how long Bush has to stir up the Western Jihad against his all those arseholes you supported for so long.
So if peace is your real objective, then make peace the attractive option, spend the billions you do on weapons to buy off the paupers who throw rocks at your troops, it’ll be cheaper in money and lives in the long run.
September 18th, 2006 at 10:52 am
the mass of entities that is Pepper greg said it better than me, with all the money and brains you can afford, think of something better FFS, why be as dumb as your enemy?
September 18th, 2006 at 10:53 am
Canicula, aptly put and far more articulately than my own lame attempt.
September 18th, 2006 at 11:17 am
Pepper Greg, Kranky, Canicula: All good ideas and difficult to implement (the decisions are not our alone to make), but we can do what is in our power to facilitate change. Dialogue, diplomacy, education are all essential . . .and speaking of education, I have to make this short: off to teach school this morning:) With kind regards, lynne
September 18th, 2006 at 11:51 am
“# ILikeLynne Says:
September 17th, 2006 at 10:30 pm
Craig, you are sickening man. Even our Jewish and Israeli friends on this blog, Raccoon included are not as blood-thirsty or rude as you are. Get a grip man and please don’t pull a Kimveer Gill.
”
………. even…………… lol
September 18th, 2006 at 1:21 pm
Just re-read my post of 195, i should have said to spend SOME of the money youspend. No-one wants a defenceless US, well no-one with any interest in survival, but there must be something in the pot for spending on bettering the future of people so they don’t think suicidal martyrdom is the best offer on the table.
September 18th, 2006 at 1:41 pm
Pepper Greg:
Sadly your counter to my points has little basis in fact or in reality. The term “occupation” usually canotes an a set of independent entities, where one has violated the territorial integrity of another. In the case of Gaza, it has never been an independent entity, and hence by the definition, it has never been occupied. It has been disputed territory.
In 1948 it was promised to a group. Egypt invaded and captured it. No one heard of “occupation” then. Any guess why?
Ok, back to deconstruction your argument and points. You wrote:
The Israeli withdrawal from Gaza was not withouth a complete destruction of the economic infrastructure on their way out,
Do you mean the “palis” rampage through the greenhouses and fields purchased on their behalf by American jews? The jews destroyed their synagogues, and some of their houses. As has been *extensively* documented in the media, they left *everything* else intact. Before you go blaming the jews who quit Gaza for the destruction, why don’t you actually Google the left wing biased media for their opinion. They, the ones who if an Israeli farts accuses them of using illegal WMD in terms of gas weapons, fully admit that the destruction of Gaza was done solely by the “palis”.
a complete encirclment of Gaza,
You mean that there is, I dunno, a border? Gaza has Egypt to the south. Has a sea to the west, and Israel to the north and east. Well, yeah, there is a border, and yeah, the parties are going to make a decision as to whether the border is open or closed. Was the border with Egypt open or closed at the outset? What happened there?
a complete destruction of the political and administrative base (Hamas or not)
That my dear PG was entirely of the “palis” own doing.
There seems to be a long standing historical thread in arab/muslim cultures of never ever taking responsibilities for ones own actions, and blaming others as a way to offset the shame of their own failures. That is what happened here PG, the “palis” are a failed mini state. They had every opportunity to form a real state. The screwed up every opportunity.
and every other trick in the Israeli opression hand book FOR THE VERY same purpose
Ok this screed has been devoid of facts and omitted reality, but now PG, you show your stripes. This is a left wing reader. This is their narrative, hook line and sinker. If you are not an arab/muslim, then someone sold you hard and fast; you have been had. Get your money back from them if you can, your world view has been poisoned by their philsophical masterbation.
[...]
As much as right wing Israeli apologists would love to try to tell us the contrary, but it is all about the land.
That PG was my point, it was about the land, about *ALL* of the land, including the land that Israel sits on. Which is the left wing position, and is highly irrational. Ignores reality, ignores real solutions, ignores history. Go read “from time immemorial” some time.
Continuing you claim in point 1 that terrorists are poor dissaffected youths. While this makes great copy for lefty mags, it is also factually incorrect. Various intelligence agencies performed research on the terrorist demographic, and found them to be usually above average in terms of education, and socio-economic status. I am aware of no studies that say that arab/muslim terrorists are created when people are poor. The al-Qaeda #2 is a doctor, the former #2 in hamas was a pediatrician, mohammed atta (may the devil enjoy his company) was an architect, and so on. The data runs quite counter to this particular lefty point. You might want to research this one a bit.
Point 2 is interesting. Which occupied arab lands? Can you list them all please? Then the next question that this begs. What guarantees do we have that if we “withdraw” from say, the list you come up with, that Islam 2.0 as you put it, will begin to form giving the so-called moderates the moral high ground? Won’t they just do what they have always done? And demand more? This is historically what they have done. Hell, we see some of the more radical ones demanding we withdraw from occupied Andalus. This is not likely to happen. Nor is a withdrawing from “all occupied areas” as there is a dispute as to whether areas are indeed occupied. Islam 2.0 needs to start now with what it has. If it can’t make progress, the world will have to make some very hard decisions about what to do. These decisions will not likely favor Islam 1.0.
On killing women and children: This is not condoned. This is prosecuted. We don’t hand out sweets when a bus explodes. Or a mother and her 5 daughters, one in-fetu, are gunned down. We don’t praise the murderers. We hunt them down, prosecute them, and punish them, according to the law. We don’t lop off their heads. We don’t slit their throats.
Before you get all hot and bothered about what we are doing, have a good long hard look at what they did to Danny Pearl. Or to anyone else. Get a sense of proportionality, and a clue on this. The lefty screed that we hear screamed in the media is wrong, is disingenuous, and is insulting to the professionals in the armed forces.
Point 3 is partially correct. Radicals are made though. Ask the people in the UK. As the UN has shown again and again in funded study after study, educating women and freeing them from virtual bondage has a very strong uniformly positive impact upon a society. Unless a society is open to making the sort of changes it needs to adapt and advance, there is simply no hope for it. When you empower women, your culture and society advance. When you impede their ascendence you wind up with a backward retrograde society. Much of the progress of the arab/muslim world hinges upon this. The rise of fundamentalism in islam unfortunately moves the arab/muslim world to the view of women as property (a man can have many wives, a wife cannot have many husbands; a wife may do various things only with permission of a male relative; and os on), and is a full fledged high speed retreat into the dark ages.
Islam and its adherents need to stop finding excuses to avoid taking responsibility for their own actions. The first step to recovering is to admit that you collectively have a problem. This has not yet occured en-masse in the arab/muslim world, though a few voices of sanity are heard.
September 18th, 2006 at 3:22 pm
September 18th, 2006 at 3:23 pm
September 18th, 2006 at 3:31 pm
Disputed territory? Not according to the UN. Now start dissing the UN you testicle head.
So what does that make Israel? A disputed nation state. Using your flawed logic then, the holocaust was also a disputed event, open to interpretation. Judaism is fmerely folkloric lore.
I just fail to see how a people that have allegedly suffered so much and were gased, raped, traumatized and basically fucked up the ass and then a little more can turn out to be so brutal themselves. It’s exactly the abused child phenomena. So I guess we have Hitler to blame for fucking up the Jewish psyche so much that their successors have turned out to be so evil. Go become a rabbi or something and find eternal peace shunning cheese burgers.
September 18th, 2006 at 4:11 pm
CheeseBurger,
Your last post was kind of incoherent and nonsensical. Maybe they were trying your flawed logic if they said something that implied that the Holocaust was disputed or Israel was a disputed nation.
September 18th, 2006 at 4:53 pm
Sandmonkey: Thank you for posting that. I would have never known that Amnesty actually condemned the actions of a terrorist organization.
This is a banner day
September 18th, 2006 at 5:02 pm
Tommy:
I think this points up to the fundamental problem. It is far more than a matter of a failure of communication. Cheeseburger and its ilk seem to reject the notion that their views could possibly be wrong. This is a trait of the people we are dealing with. No solution can work but theirs, no idea need be mentioned but theirs, and criticism and fact need not enter the fray. It is a monologue. A dictation. They get all put out when you suggest something other than what they have dictated to you.
This is not how civilized discourse evolves, not how negotiations reach successful conclusions. This is why in part, negotiations with the likes of cheeseburger and fellow travelers is a worthless endeavor. It will simply not work, as history has witnessed for us.
When a meme of real interest in solving problems, ala the March 14th efforts, sweeps the ME, thats when dialogues are possible. Thats when peace will emerge. Land for peace failed as one of the two sides failed to comprehend what was being offered and extended to them, and mistook it as a sign of weakness. So the obvious conclusion is that we cannot and will not make that mistake again, and we can patiently wait for sensible memes and people to gain power.
September 18th, 2006 at 5:35 pm
You cannot ignore or deny that the current social climate in Western countries presents a REAL threat and encourages Muslims to engage with the notion of a global conspiracy against Islam.
Anne… come on…
Turn on the news. Pick a channel at random. You think that level of murderous hatred can be corrected by changing the “social climate” in western countries?
This kind of think tends to cause people to believe Islam has a conspiracy against the globe. Not the other way around.
We don’t placate terrorists anymore. That’s a failed policy, and one that failed in a very big way in 2001. I’m stunned that you claim to work in counter-terrorism. You sound more like a social worker, or an employee of the United Nations. Human Rights by any chance?
Really, I can’t understand how you can believe that terrorism just suddenly appeared out of nowhere. It’s been around in it’s current form for at least 35 years. Until 5 years ago, terrorism always paid. That’s why muslims are murdering people, burning churches, threatening death to the Pope, and advocating all kinds of other violence. Why shouldn’t they? Muslims have been rewarded for this patholgical violence for almost half a century. It works. Why should they stop now?
If we followed your advice, and attempted to appease muslims by accomodating their every whim to the point of changing the very social fabric in western cultures, would that be (another) reward for violent extortion? And then as reasonable human beings, having just paid off an extortionist, we logically can expect the extortion to stop. Correct? This is your expert opinion?
September 18th, 2006 at 7:07 pm
Wow. A lot of venom here.
First, can we agree that the holocaust was not “alleged”? Anyone who isn’t sure can come to my house, and meet the holocaust survivors in my family, and their relatives. I’ll feed you and be friendly, and I personally guarantee that your blood will not be used to bake anything.
Second, can we all also agree that many Arabs have suffered hardship from a variety of causes, one of which (but not the only one of which) has been the actions of Israelis who were pursuing what they perceived (rightly or wrongly) to be in their own self-interest?
Third, can we all also agree that many Israelis have suffered hardship from a variety of causes, one of which (but not the only one of which) has been the actions of Arabs who were pursuing what they perceived (rightly or wrongly) to be in their own self-interest?
Whaddya say? can we agree at least to this?
September 18th, 2006 at 7:16 pm
Continuiung on, The Israelis certainly did not create a Nirvanah for the Gazans in Gaza. But have the Gazans not contributed to their own misery? The structures that were left for them were a source of jobs and currency, and they were promptly destroyed. The enterprise zones on the border, where many Gazans worked, were abandoned at least in part because of violence perpetrated by Gazans on Israelis there and elsewhere.
The Gazans have every right to complain, but part and parcel of the right to complain is the obligation to minimize ones own damages. I believe it is not possible to fairly say that the Gazans have done this.
And as for the border between Gaza and Israel, every country has the right to make its borders as pourous or as non-porous as it wants. It’s not Apartheid. It’s sovereignty. Similarly, Egypt can have open or closed borders with Gaza. They chose closed borders and built a wall. It’s every bit as much an Apartheid wall as Israel’s, which is to say that it isn’t. It’s a soverign border.
September 18th, 2006 at 8:15 pm
So, Suzanne, you’re implying that I am rude and bloodthirsty, then, are you?
Die, you faithless flea-ridden curr!
LOL
September 18th, 2006 at 8:16 pm
Sorry, BrooklynJon.
I allege that the Holocaust occurred.
I also allege that my allegation is entirely true.
September 18th, 2006 at 8:36 pm
Anne - you’re a counter-terrorism expert?
Ye Gods, the West is doomed… a counter-terrorism expert with a multi-culti, moral-equivalence mindset is like a vegan, save-the-animals cattle rancher.
ILikeLynne -
So it’s YOU who’s implying that I am rude and bloodthirsty!
May the Efreeti devour your hiney, you bumbling, pox-marked, warthog-faced buffoon!
And Israelis really like to travel, must be a Jewish genetic thing. But for the person whose head is about to be gnawed off by the Raccoon Commandos from Olympia this is obviously a sign of Evil Zionist ™ behavior, full of secret, sinister, seditious, sadistic and other stuff beginning with S motives!
To be perfectly frank, we’re travelling everywhere because we are looking for the right Christian and Muslim children. For the matza, you know?
And wow, you actually know a bit of Hebrew, it seems, or have access to someone who does. Keepin’ an eye on us Evil Zionist ™ conspirators, eh?
PS
Where’s your embassy so that I can burn it down to show just how seething I am? That’s legitimate grievances right here - root causes!
*brandishes an AK-47*
September 18th, 2006 at 9:12 pm
“And Israelis really like to travel, must be a Jewish genetic thing.”
How dare you revive the stereotype of the “Wandering Jew.”
September 18th, 2006 at 9:23 pm
Tommy - uhm, just don’t hurt any Raccoons while you’re seething, OK?
September 18th, 2006 at 9:35 pm
Don’t worry Raccoon,
In response to your stereotypes, I’m going to take an example from our fine Muslim friends: I’m scheduling a peaceful “Day of Anger” against raccoons.
September 18th, 2006 at 10:52 pm
Hey, watch it, Tommy - we might just start a Jihad against your garbage cans and pets
And, BTW, on a serious note - from my experience, Jews really do travel a lot. In Israel a guy is expected to either travel the world or study after military service. And many fellow perpetual travellers that I’ve met around th world are Jews.
Weird but true… now to find proof for that maza thing
September 18th, 2006 at 11:39 pm
Hey, watch it, Tommy - we might just start a Jihad against your garbage cans and pets
He’s not kidding, Tommy. I’d take him seriously if I were you…
Psycho Killer Racoons
September 18th, 2006 at 11:48 pm
I used to believe that people like Gandhi could save us in my old “Lynne and Anne” days. Sorry I can’t subscribe to that view anymore. Wish I could.
You know, this planet is awfully small and it’s in a huge universe. Do you think the aliens might save us?
September 19th, 2006 at 12:14 am
Frightening, Bec. Especially since I live in that state!
Raccoons are common around here (I see a few every week in the summer) and many of them are quite fierce if cornered by people or dogs. Many people don’t realize that they can snarl and growl; I’ve had a few of them growl at me when I’ve disturbed them while they were digging through the garbage late at night.
September 19th, 2006 at 12:21 am
Aww, but our Racoon would never do such a thing. Our Racoon is a pretty moderate guy in the racoon scheme of things. I always like hearing what he has to say. If he does growl, you can bet that his tongue is in his racoony cheek.
September 19th, 2006 at 1:34 am
Bec, you are right; there are no simple answers. The world is so complex. People used to move on, move away from conflict and start over someplace else when things got too bad. That option is gone now. We are stuck with all this conflict, anger, misery, and heartlessness now and have few strategies to deal with it. I have found this political service called Stratfor, which is based in Austin Texas. They provide in depth analysis of political situations around the world. I was actually worried about how bad things have gotten in the Middle East and emailed asking some questions. The CEO emailed me back, which astonished me. He said that military might will only go so far in solving disputes and that we are living in a time where intense diplomatic efforts must be made. Of course, the problem is the hidden agendas of some countries and the lack of good will…but even so, I think that it is our best strategy. If you live in the US, you know that we have many problems here, and as a teacher, I see the signs and symptoms of present and future problems. As much as our educational system is lacking, we do have a mandate, as teachers, to promote cultural diversity, to affirm the value of each individual, and to not only just tolerate diversity, but to celebrate it. I take that to heart, and pour my energy into it. I am seeing the power of this approach. As the US locates companies in other countries, makes trade agreements, etc. perhaps it would be wise and reasonable to provide assistance to these countries in the form of helping them build infrastructure and services for their people. It’s got to be cheaper than a bomb so I know that we can afford it. I used to be definitely to the Left political, well maybe very left—but not anymore. I suggest the study of Gandhi as an inspiration. I realize it cannot be the first step, but perhaps something to work toward—that is to say, a gentler approach and promoting a gentler approach. I detest the media now and see just how much they are fanning the flames of hatred, making things so much worse. I neither right nor left, truth is I am probably just weird. And, I am just sick of the violence and hatred, especially for those who cannot get out of the middle of it. They are trapped and that is terrible.
September 19th, 2006 at 2:44 am
Raccoons are awful (no offence). I have a neighbour who would let her 3 guinea pigs graze in her backyard. One night they didn’t put them in their cage. The next morning I steppped out the back door and onto my deck only to find mounds of thick black hair and then a butchered guinea pig. I knew it was a raccoon because its very unique paw prints were imprinted on my deck. It was a long haired guinea pig and reminded me of a toupe with legs. The white one who got injured also died. Only the mean one survived. Typical.
They wander through my yard at night crying and eating plums even when the other neighbour is out. They know who is boss.
September 19th, 2006 at 2:54 am
Anne
You said that it was bad thing that US fought with white russians in 1918? You mean it was a good thing that americans and their white russians allies lost and for the next hundred years we had CCCP to content with? That’s what you mean?
You said you have PhD “in the area”, so……….
What you wrote is what anybody with modicum of knowledge knows about counterterrorism but I do think that you have nothing whatsoever to do with counterterrorism and a lot to do with bureaucracy and PC
.Frankly I am glad that I am not an american because having you as counterterrorist expert makes me shiver and feelings of doom and gloom pervade my mind.
I am so glad that I am not a counterterrorist expert but …………….a cleaning lady.
September 19th, 2006 at 4:07 am
Brooklyn Jon said “I’ll feed you and be friendly, and I personally guarantee that your blood will not be used to bake anything”
Of course you will Jon. If I have seen this once I have seen it a thousand times, Jew invites the gentil over for dinner with a promise that he will not eat him. Then BAM, eats the kids in jew-soup. Not gonna fall for it buddy.
ella said: “Frankly I am glad that I am not an american because having you as counterterrorist expert makes me shiver and feelings of doom and gloom pervade my mind.”
She, maybe even he, has nothing to do with counterterrorism and isn’t an expert. Trust me, it just isn’t. She/he is either an ad-junct professor or a lackey at the CIA.
September 19th, 2006 at 4:55 am
Mike
I am not a trusting person, so I won’t trust you.
However I do agree with you that she rather seems like somebody who teaches at university or some low-to-mid-level employee. She is too proud of her PhD. On the other hand people from ME often rate other people based on titles and familly connections. Furthermore she is a woman and a muslim, and they are usually undervalued over there. That’s why she was so upset that somebody could have taken her for a cleaning lady or a secretary i/o someone with a degree.
September 19th, 2006 at 5:01 am
Mike,
I said I’d feed you, but I didn’t specify to whom I would be feeding you.
September 19th, 2006 at 5:51 am
Brooklyn Jon, I know I couldn’t burn you out of N.Y.C., but if you ever end up in Idaho you’re welcome to the picnic at the hobo cook off. Thickest ribs you’ve ever eaten (you can thank the catholic soup-line kitchens for that). Every summer Aug.15-22.
BTW, jokes about feeding people their parents are not funny. One of my friends (dude totally met radiohead, f’n awesome) ate his parents in a chile cook off one time. Not cool
September 19th, 2006 at 6:20 am
It’s OK, Mike.
So long as your no visiting BrooklynJon around Passover, you should be OK.
September 19th, 2006 at 9:12 am
Ella and Mike
Don’t talk about me as if you know me.
I don’t live in the Middle East- I was not raised in the Middle East. I live in a Western country and have done all my life. I work in combatting homegrown terrorism and that is where my interests lie. You do not know where I live or what I do so how could you possibly comment on it?
Ella, your comments are completely and unabashedly based on an assumption that I live somewhere in the ME and I am some poor, oppressed little Muslim woman with some kind of complex. WRONG, but typical of what I’d expect from someone who obviously draws on her own biased stereotypes. In fact. if I were to draw on stereotypes of cleaning ladies, I would say you are probably a fat white trash chick who lives in a trailer park with her drunk husband and who is disdainful of anybody of colour who has an education because you never had the opportunity (or else you were too stupid). But that’s just a stereotype, isn’t it- I’m sure you’re not like that at all.
Mike- I have no idea why you’re so obsessed with me and what it is that pisses you off so much about me- but I don’t really give a shit because, frankly, the idea of you thinking about me at all is just too ewww to imagine!
I have not said half the things you (Ella) said I did so perhaps you both need to brush up on your literacy skills too.
I thought that this blog was a place where intelligent people could come together and debate issues in an open and respectable manner- obviously it has started to attract white trash who can come up with nothing intelligent only insults and
September 19th, 2006 at 9:27 am
People must surely realise that every muslim killed by a western power, in whatever way it happens, merely serves to strengthen the hold of the mad mullahs over their flocks and line up another queue of impressionable young idiots to sign up for martyrdom.
This is not a war for territory or government, it’s a war for public opinion, both in Iraq, Lebanon and globally. It won’t be won by killing them, it’ll be won by taking their image away from them, taking their following, taking their mystique, exposing them for the power hungry, selfish, semi-literate warlords that they are, in the name of Allah. Every US or British or Canadian or Western soldier that dies adds fuel to the possibility of glory for an uneducated, ill-informed and misguided young man to strap explosives to himself.
Maybe pointing out that if they hang on a bit longer, the male-female ratio in these countries will be significantly changed and they wont need to die for access to some virgins in the afterlife?
You cannot fight stupidity by killing every stupid person in the country, and the world has moved on from the stage where you can destroy their resistance by reducing their numbers by starvation or murder or ethnic cleansing. So that leaves what? War will only maintain our hold over the status quo, while more and more of these arsehats are being cultivated and prepared and lined up to go out and win their 72 virgins. Our leaders and populations lack the will or the moral rage to use their weapons of mass destruction, nor would they be forgiven if they did. So for lack of the ability to obliterate the opposition, what do the readers of this blog actually propose is done. I, personally, am for hunting down every cleric or tribal leader who advocates murder or hatred and eliminating them unconditionally. Every cleric who opens his mouth in hatred, will be visited by some gentlemen in the middle of the night and have their judgement by their God hastened.
But there’s a big caveat to that power and it’s this, to be seen as policing the world, those who have and wield the power to bring such vengeance from a no longer tolerant world must have clean hands themselves, they must be unimpeachable. They have to be seen to be doing this for the greater good, not for profit or oil, not for the Good Ol’ Boys network, or their sorority chums, not for personal aggrandizement, power or mental instability. THAT is one of the root problems, the Western nations have blood on their hands and everyone can see it, and they know why it’s there. We are not to be trusted and there’s no avoiding it.
When a poor Iraqi sees a choice between the nations he perceives as trying to rape his country’s wealth and the local cleric who advocates violence to free themselves of the yoke of oppression, then that un-educated, gullible idiot will not have to think far to see the US as the great satan, and his martyrdom as a heroic gesture of freedom. If you remove the cleric, there will be another one right behind. If, however, you remove the cleric and the idiot himself trusts you to be doing the right thing, that he will benefit from this improvement to the balance of hate and peace, the next cleric might not get his support, and you have won. It only needs a small percentage swing of believers to your side and you have won the battle.
I can assure you that the current way is not going to work, read your history, it never has.
September 19th, 2006 at 9:34 am
And for you guys who say that Bush is better than Bin Laden, i say how? Sure Bush will be gone in a few years, but everytime i look into his eyes i see a man on the make, and he has the whole machine behind him, and his decisions have killed more of your people than Bin Laden ever did. When i see a muslim cleric preaching murder and then transpose that onto bush, as Anne rightly said, the difference is minimal. The fact that you voted him in doesn’t make him right, it just makes him powerful.
September 19th, 2006 at 10:57 am
Ella and Mike
Your obsession with me is amusing considering you don’t know anything about who I am or what I do- you are merely basing your assumptions on narrow minded stereotypes.
FYI and I hate to blow your stereotype right out the water here, but I do not live in the ME- I live in the West and always have done. I am not an academic and am actually quite critical of academia.
I also find it amusing that neither of you have actually responded to anything I have actually said about countering terrorism- only to who you think I may be! What’s so fascinating that you have spent so much time dedicated to trying to figure it out?
Ella- if i was to apply the same kind of stereotyping to you, I would say that you are probably some fat ugly woman who lives in a trailer park and, despite showing so much potential as a youngster, never really amounted to anything. But that would be wrong of me because you probably aren’t like that all, right? However it would explain why you seem to disply so much angst over the fact that I actually may know what I am talking about.
Mike- please, please stop posting about me because frankly the thought of you thinking about me in any capacity is just too gross to handle!
Craig- re #207
It may not seem so to you- but you and I are actually on the same page on a lot of things and I agree with a lot of what you have said. Perhaps I should explain that my area is in managing the threat of homegrown terrorists- I leave global terrorism up to global terrorism experts- I’m worried about another London style bomb attack and that’s the context I’m using in a lot of what I’m saying.
I certainly do not believe in appeasing anyone. I do believe in ensuring that young Muslim men who are more likely to pay heed to the jihadists message are identifying with the country in which they live as active social, economic and political citizens- not as members of a Muslim nation bent on wiping out the Western world.
I don’t think that this is going to solve the issue of global terrorism but I do think that we need to be aware of how, in Western countries, people are being influenced by the rhetoric on the ‘war on terror’ which Canicula rightly points out is being spouted by both sides. This is where the danger lies- as soon as you get Muslims in Western countries listening to the crap about the need for a jihad against the West- you have a threat on your hands that you need to be able to manage. It’s not about appeasing Muslims in Western countries in any way, shape or form because you are right that this does not solve anything (see we do agree) but it is about knowing how and what the jihadis use to recruit people to their cause- and the notion of a global conspiracy and a single Muslim nation united in the fight against the infidel is central to this as well as being very very appealing to some people who look around them and find every reason to say “we are victims”.
September 19th, 2006 at 6:20 pm
“Sure Bush will be gone in a few years, but everytime i look into his eyes i see…”
Whatever you wish to see.
September 19th, 2006 at 6:43 pm
Anne -
Does the West have a choice, though? Islam is continuing its war against non-Islam and stepping up the efforts. It has also initiated a new and possible effective tactic - terrorism. If the West reacts, they are Evil Zionist Crusaders ™ - and if it doesn’t, it dies eventually.
Homegrown terrorism can, theretically, be combated by education. Multi-culturalism, however, only serves to increase it - after all, these people hail from violent cultures built on militant Islam, with strong tribal ties, more often than not. By ignoring the problem governments are exacerbating it. By ignoring the real causes of the problem the governments are doing the same.
PS
Sorry I took a stab at you before, but it was too funny to resist
Ben - spot on.
Bec - awwwwww… *raccoonish hugs*
Karen - shame on you! We shall cry and eat plums as much as we please, you un-raccoon infidel!
September 19th, 2006 at 6:46 pm
PPS - I know not all Muslims adhere to the Dar al-Islam and Dar al-Harb ideology. But I also know that the leaders of Islam openly do. Bloody borders and all that.
September 19th, 2006 at 8:01 pm
Anne,
Fair enough. Thanks for the explanation. I don’t really agree with you, but I don’t have a problem with you either. Did I see you say you live inAustrailia in one of these threads? If that’s so, what works in Austrailia may be completely different from what works in the US. I’m not familiar with Austrailia’s domestic issues. Personally, I think it would be a disaster to implement a multi-cultual policy in America… and that’s not because of muslim immigration. We only have about 3% muslim population here and a large number of them are African Americans who practice their own version of Islam. And it’s not because I’m anti-immigration. I married an immigrant. But I live in southern california, where white guys like me are the minority. I don’t FEEL like a minority though. And that’s the way it should be. If the US was multi-cultural, California would be just like Mexico - and where would that leave me? Feeling like a stranger in my own country. Your way may be ok, but I wouldn’t want to see it here.
September 19th, 2006 at 9:45 pm
Off topic but amusing for its historical value!
As you all know a military coup just occurred in Thailand hours ago, lead by Army Commander-in-Chief Gen. Sonthi Boonyaratkalin. Now look at this piece of news from September 14th, and what the General says. Funny!
Thai army chief dismisses public fears of coup d’etat
BANGKOK, Sept 14 (TNA) - Thai Army Commander-in-Chief Gen. Sonthi Boonyaratkalin, on Thursday dismissed fears of a military coup against the government, saying the military fully supports continuing peace and order in the nation.
The army chief told both the government and the general public not to be swayed by rumours intended to provoke the destabilisation, Gen. Sonthi said, which he claimed were designed to cause division between the military and the government.
”These were rumours aiming to divide the country,” Gen. Sonthi explained. “We must trust each other.”
The army chief believed the rumours could have been generated by a troop movement earlier this week at the end of a normally scheduled military combat training exercise.
He told reporters that he had counseled young officers to remain patient over the current political mess, which he said should only be solve by democratic means.
”Unity is what our country needs; so, we must stop talking about coups,” Gen. Sonthi said. “It is impossible.”
Coup jitters were fueled by an earlier remark by Secretary General to the Prime Minister Prommin Lertsuridej on such the possibility, given the current political turmoil.
Dr. Prommin was reported to have said that a military coup was as likely possible as an assassination attempt against the prime minister.
Meanwhile, Defence Minister Gen.Thammarak Isarangura Na Ayutthaya said on Thursday that the public had mistaken the military combat training as a coup.
”It was only a misunderstanding,” he said.
”Coups are against the law and should not be discussed casually,” the minister added. (TNA)-E110, E002
Italics off.
September 19th, 2006 at 10:26 pm
Raccoon, your #235: have you read this?
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3304253,00.html
~~~~~IN THE MIDDLE AGES Islamic legal scholars divided the world into two spheres: Dar al-Islam (land of Islam), where Islamic law applied, and Dar al-Harb (land of war) where it did not. Islamic state’s duty was to extend the Dar al-Islam - through peaceful means if possible but if not, through war.
[...]
These medieval Islamic legal scholars held that the Qur’anic verses suggesting peaceful accommodation or coexistence with non-believers (especially 2:193, 8:61) were cancelled out by the later, more belligerent ones. In medieval legal sources, jihad generally referred to a divinely sanctioned struggle to establish Muslim rule over non-Muslims as a prelude to the propagation of the Islamic faith.
HOWEVER, this belligerent interpretation of jihad HAS NOT BEEN ACCEPTED BY ALL Qur’anic scholars. MANY Islamic scholars argued and CONTINUE to argue that the Qur’an and Islamic Prophetic traditions allow war only for self-defence against persecution and aggression.~~~~~
Tse.
September 20th, 2006 at 1:53 am
Craig and Racoon,
You both make some really strong and important points. The problem with multiculturalism is that it is a government policy that has been developed wihtout any real forsight on how it impacts on people. It means different things to different people and their perceptions of what it is are based on lived experiences (like yours Craig). You’re both right, we need to move away from multiculturalism- but where do we go from here?
As an actual concept it has some good and bad points. The problem is how it has been implemented as a policy. Look at the UK- Muslims there have made a noise about banning everything including friggin’ piggy banks for God’s sake- because it “offends them”! That’s absolutely ridiculous and the government should never ever have allowed a situation where one group can dictate and change the very fabric of the society in which they have CHOSEN to live. It should be a case of mutual respect- respect the country that you have come to, abide by its laws, respect its cultural values or piss off, basically.
On the other side of the coin- US, UK and Australia are all secular democracies and they all have some kind of multicultural policy even if it’s just about managing successive waves of migrants (which is how Aus’s policy was started in the 1970’s). Craig- the US policy is based on the notion of ‘the melting pot’. UK’s one is grounded in human rights. The crux of secularism is that it allows for the practice of different religions and cultural traditions in the private domain because it is based on a separation of public and private. So, can you have a secular liberal democracy without multiculturalism and religious diversity? Hmmm- that’s one I’ll have to think about. But it certainly leaves the West somewhere between a rock and a hard place.
Racoon
You are right that the West has little choice because the Islamists will still keep spouting their radical shit long after this ‘war on terror’ is over. That’s why we have to look after our own back yards because the threat is more and more likely to be coming from within than from without.
PS- don’t mind that you took a stab at me- what you said was kind of funny
September 20th, 2006 at 2:36 am
I agree with your views on multiculturalism, Anne. I think the Dutch are starting to pull in the reins a bit. It’s one thing to celebrate people’s origins and cultures - it’s another to have to conform to them at the expense of your own culture, in your own nation. I was going to send you a link from Fukuyama on this very thing, but it disappeared. (In fact, I submitted a comment a couple of hours ago with it and it hasn’t shown up yet.)
I love reading the Racoon and Craig. And Mike is often pithily hilarious!
FYI - Big Pharaoh has quite a discussion going on about the reaction to the Pope.
September 20th, 2006 at 3:28 am
Thanks Bec
I’ve read quite a bit from Fukuyama but mostly in relation to the clash of civilisations theory so would love to read whatever you have.
You are so right multiculturalism should never ever be about having to change the host societies traditions or cultural values- unfortunately a lot of people who, often mean well, haven’t had the balls to stand up and say NO to minority groups.
Recently, our Prime Minister said that all Muslims coming to Australia should learn English. Bloody right, they should. In fact everyone coming to Australia should learn English- how else can they be expected to contribute to the society they have come to, to understand and obey the laws of the society if they don’t know the language?
But noooooo, our so called “Muslim leaders” stood up and said the PM was causing racial tensions and criticized him for even suggesting it. Now, don’t get me wrong, I’m not about to go voting for little Johnny H in the next election but the man made a logical and rational point. The reaction was irrational. Just like the reaction to the Pope’s comments.
September 20th, 2006 at 3:43 am
We may need a working definition of multiculturalism; I think we may all have very different or just slightly different understandings of that term. I agree t hat an immigrant group cannot come in and expect to change the culture to suit their needs, supplanting the culture that was already established. Fine, if they add their traditions and ideas though.
Pepper: More political upheaval! The remarks made by General Sonthi—really makes us all more than a little distrustful!
Going to check out BP. When is SM returning home?
September 20th, 2006 at 4:36 am
Pepper Greg:
“Ignore the man behind the curtain” …
Or more like the Peter Seller’s Pink Panther skit about the dog. The humor is in the irony.
Unfortunately this coup means the Thai are living in a dangerous state of affairs.
September 20th, 2006 at 4:39 am
working definition of multiculturalism
There is an oxymoron for you.
September 20th, 2006 at 7:33 am
SM
Somebody having problems getting online in NY? Service standards not what they are made out to be?
September 20th, 2006 at 8:43 am
Some of the Egyptian bloggers are saying there is a rumor that Sand Monkey was arrested and detained upon his return from the US and is now being held at the Torah Mazra3a prison in Cairo? Can any one confirm this? I am getting quite worried about him…
September 20th, 2006 at 9:31 am
Tsedek, who spread this rumor?
September 20th, 2006 at 6:18 pm
OK. Having analyzed the current state of the world, I can reach but one conclusion:
Jadies and Lentlemen… we are absolutely, totally, inescapably and definitely fucked.
September 20th, 2006 at 9:22 pm
Ella- if i was to apply the same kind of stereotyping to you, I would say that you are probably some fat ugly woman who lives in a trailer park and, despite showing so much potential as a youngster, never really amounted to anything.
Well, you may think so and perhaps I am.
However, you do have preconception. I never said you live in ME, only that you may have been brought up in the ME, there is some difference between one and the other.
Secondly your reaction to Mike answer seems to be overblown, being a PhD does not make anybodys view better and PhDs not necessarily never worked as cleaners.
Thirdly, I have to appologize because I did mistaken the post of bureaucrat which was above your post (list of the foreign lands America has attacked) for yours. So in that case you are right, I did not answer your post.
September 20th, 2006 at 9:24 pm
June 11th, 2007 at 4:07 pm
What a thought provoking post, thank you.
August 22nd, 2007 at 10:18 pm
[...] miraculous site now re-examine this synopsis http://www.sandmonkey.org/2006/09/15/ohmygodohmygodohmygod and give comments [...]
May 10th, 2008 at 8:44 am
Onetimer is a Jew.