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Sunday, 5 Nov 2006
Here is a video of someone that I am ashamed i share my country of origin with, but this video of his is importnat to watch. If you wanted to make some sense of the Eid attacks, this is where you start.
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November 5th, 2006 at 10:59 am
I am more disturbed by the lady than by the man.He is an animal and does not pretend to be anything else. she is preaching and condecending
November 5th, 2006 at 11:28 am
Yes, I agree, its totally weird that a woman should be having a conversation with a rapist about the style of clothing his victim wore on the day of the attack! This is revolting.
November 5th, 2006 at 12:45 pm
I completely agree with H. The man is obviously an uneducated fool… it’s the woman that sounds scary.
Reminds of all these bullshit religious channels that have popped up.
November 5th, 2006 at 1:20 pm
That woman is a nut… she’s just trying to get a statement like that to support her own creepy dress.
November 5th, 2006 at 3:48 pm
Yes The guy is uneducated and yes he’s automatically agreeing with everything the woman is saying cause he doesnt really understand wats going on. Its true that this conversation is useless especially when u refer to what happened in the Eid when there was no distinguish between girls wearing “short dresses”, Hijab or whatever else.
And, Lisa, anyone is free to dress like ever they want. If i dont like Hijabis calling me names because i wear “short dresses” than I wudnt call what they choose to wear “creepy dresses”.
November 5th, 2006 at 4:37 pm
why can’t I see it? I’m on the youtube page, everything is there except the video :-(((
November 5th, 2006 at 4:38 pm
i m disgusted, haroun al poussah i comleley agree. watching it made me really sick. she pushing an agenda dress ‘modestly= safe’ dress in short skirt = you get rapped you are asking for it. this type of thinking allows rape to go . there is nothing that the women and the rapist said that didnt make me angry.
November 5th, 2006 at 4:51 pm
Un-freakin-believeable. And the woman is sitting there egging him on! She’s enjoying this and taking great satisfaction at “proof” that women who don’t dress like she does are the cause of poor, illiterate Muslim men doing bad things and ending up in jail. Not a single word of pity for the victim. What a sad, pathetic treatise on a culture that not only doesn’t respect women, but even teaches it’s women not to respect their fellow women.
And asking the guy if he prayed. Of course he doesn’t pray. Had he been a person who cared about having God in his life, he wouldn’t have become a rapist.
SM, I nipped this video for my live journal, I hope you don’t mind! Have you seen the video interview of Dr. Wafa Sultan on Al Jezeera TV? It’s so good.
November 5th, 2006 at 6:11 pm
Very revealing, SM.
Lisa, LOL! I thought the same thing! But basically, I agree that it’s very scary and sad when you find yourself feeling sorrier for the rapist than for the “comforter.” “Surely you must read a little?” What a… (fill in the blank). I believed the guy when he said he would protect a “good” woman to the death. What a screwed up outlook - thanks to what he’d been taught. He was honest, too. He knew he was wrong, even though he tried to explain himself.
November 5th, 2006 at 6:31 pm
http://politiken.dk/udland/article195695.ece
Sorry - this is the wrong place to put my anger; but - Indonesians made a cartooncontest, drawing the danish queen as a pig…goddammit: lets burn the fuckers, their embassies, lets blow them to hell…lets boycot whatever comes from Indonesia (can’t think of anything but religious radicalism - so lets boycot religious radicalism)… Let them pay back the millions of dollars denmark offered after the Tsunami. Lets beat up any Indonesian in europe, whether or not they had anything to do with this drawingcontest: because if you mess with the queen, you might as well ask for someone to shot you in your religious brainwashed head… Lets have a frenzy, lets burn some mosques, torch some qurans and shot some followers of islam - because that woul be excactly the same stupid thing to do, as radical muslims did because of a drawing with a bomb in Muhammads turban (everybody else but muslims find this analogy to be rather true - so whats the fuss!?)
So, lets not behave as muslims - shall we!?!
November 5th, 2006 at 6:54 pm
Zee-Puppette,
I’m not going to stop her from dressing like that, I’m not going to attack her or applaud if she is attacked for her dress but I DO think that is creepy.. to cover oneself head to toe in black for the sole purpose of professing her piety to the world. That kind of extremism, self-righteousness and twisted morality is just creepy and very disturbing.
Everything about this video is designed to make a statement but the statement she ended up making, albeit unintentionally, was NOT flattering to Islam or herself.
November 5th, 2006 at 7:46 pm
BREAKING: Saddam Sentenced to Hang
Mass murdering butcher Saddam Hussein has been found guilty of Crimes Against Humanity and sentenced to hang. Still, an appeal is automatic (absurd), and can take months. With this verdict, the convicted (including Saddam’s half-brother) should be imm…
November 5th, 2006 at 8:58 pm
i seriously find ur views to be disturbing, creepy and pathetic…According to statistics here in canada most of the women that are rapped were dressed in he same way he explained. this doesnot mean that every girl that chooses to expose herself is asking to be raped but is MORE likely than a covered up girl..wut is wrong if u choose to cover from head to toe…FREEDOM OF CHOICE…and it is an act of perserving ur self..y does every passing bystander see every piece of ur body…then again wut if u choose to express urself in the way u dress and wear wutever crossed ur mind that day.. that is also ur choice and ur entitled to it…every person can choose to wear or not wear anything….UR VIEWS DOES NOT HAVE TO BE BIASS….THIS WEBSITE IS FULL OF FUCKED UP HEADS…SERIOUSLY IM A GRAD STUDENT IN PHILOSOPHY AND IM CONVINCED…
November 5th, 2006 at 9:07 pm
Canadian,
For a student of philosophy, you make your points fairly opaquely. What exactly is your point? And what does being a graduate student in philosophy have to do with it? And since when do you not need to know how to spell or use grammar to be in graduate school? And may I also add, that if an argument lacks merit, putting it in all caps won’t help.
BJ
B.A. in Philosophy, for what its worth, which is frankly not much
November 5th, 2006 at 9:31 pm
Well i totally agree with canadian about having your own choice in what to or not to wear. And come on it makes senses if ur showing more skin you are more desired and sick rapists will in turn….um rape you..But BrooklynJoe have u ever heard of msn chatting cause thats what canadian was using or sorry your probably to old for this type of knowledge….and u seem to be mistaking B.A for graduate…well i guess u never reached university to even know that..so unless u recieved any type of education that will expand your thinking its better not post ignorance on a forum which is supposed to address serious issues that goes for all of you Air heads…..seriously…
November 5th, 2006 at 10:01 pm
And come on it makes senses if ur showing more skin you are more desired and sick rapists will in turn….um rape you
I don’t even know where to start with this. Study after study shows rape has nothing to do with “showing skin” but all to do with power
well i guess u never reached university to even know that..so unless u recieved any type of education that will expand your thinking its better not post ignorance on a forum which is supposed to address serious issues that goes for all of you Air heads…..seriously…
I’m simply in awe that we have such an intellectual titan among us. Please - give us some more of your insightful comments
November 5th, 2006 at 10:09 pm
dude…its good that one of u notices i am an intellectual titan..hehehe
November 5th, 2006 at 10:25 pm
Sandy, you can see IPs. Am I correct in assuming that #15 there is a sock puppet of #13?
November 5th, 2006 at 10:28 pm
sock puppet….what the hell is that?…and why do u all have such trashy names
November 6th, 2006 at 12:16 am
WOW! That was one strange video!
November 6th, 2006 at 12:34 am
HI Sandmonkey, the fact that you are ashamed to share your home country with this uneducated fool speaks to the truth that there is hope for the future. I have been reading yor blog for a long time now, i am thankful that there are Men like you in Egypt, I visited Egypt last year, and yes I was there as a pampered -protected tourist– i don’t think that anyone could have protected us from the people who commited the Eid assults, even though we had armed guards with us, when we were walking around in the Bazzar. I will say this, the limited contact i did have with Egyptian men, at the airport, on the tour busses, at the hotels, on the cruise boat, at the Carpet school, they were all very resectful and polite, extremely pleasant and very nice. Only one time, now that I think back do I believe we were in the presence of an Egyptian man who did not want to be in our presence (there were 16 of us uncovered women) and that was at the papyrus institute where we were being given a demonstration on the making of papyrus, at first there was a man who was supposed to show us, but for some reason he ran off to the back and one of the very pretty, also uncoverd, western dressed Egyptian women gave the demonstration.
Thankyou, Sandmonkey for just being you, an honorable man, and a great source of truth and informaton. thank you most espically for helping the girls to organize the silent protest, i would go if i was in Egypt. be safe and keep watch on the Egyptian sisters I met last year.
November 6th, 2006 at 12:45 am
Dropping in,
Actually I did my post-doc work at Harvard. My BA is in philosophy, but not my graduate degree. But more to the point, if you don’t know what a sock puppet is, maybe you’re the one who’s too old. But even at your tender age, I knew a complete sentence when I saw one.
In any event, I never tried to impress anyone with my intellectual pedigree, only with the strength of my argument and the clarity with which it is phrased.
November 6th, 2006 at 1:03 am
They’re called leading questions: when the questions suggest the answers. The problem with the woman is that she had an agenda, to get certain answers,and she got them. The rapist, well, he’s just a nasty low-life trying to go along with the script.
Definitely stomach-turning.
November 6th, 2006 at 1:50 am
#13 I am Canadian, what Mickey Mouse university accepted you into graduate school?
November 6th, 2006 at 1:55 am
I don’t know the context of the interview; does the interviewer really believe the statements she made while goading him? Or was that just a way to push him to make more outrageously evil statements than he had already made?
Regardless, the questions were definitely leading, but the true “leading” had been done well before he committed the crime. The interviewer may be part of a chorus of voices that is “leading” the next generation of rapists, though.
Who are the leaders, preachers, teachers and media personalities who taught this creep? He must be held responsible for his own actions, but they should be locked up as well. They didn’t help him how to read — or even how to be a Muslim, which as I recall requires prayer 5 times/day — but they DID teach him that he can’t control himself, and that he can’t help but rape women, or even little girls, who don’t dress in tents.
Do you know if this guy is representative of the perpetrators of the mass molestation in Cairo?
November 6th, 2006 at 2:34 am
What kind of life did this man have? He is uneducated, perhaps has learning difficulties and thinking difficulties. I can’t help but feel a degree of pity and sadness for him that he apparently lacked the opportunity to develop into a better man. It does not excuse his behavior, but perhaps we can understand that he has had many deficits in his life. He certainly is a serious mess.
November 6th, 2006 at 2:49 am
Lynne, I agree with you and ananamas (my accidental sock puppet
).
That Canadian Dropping In is a hoot!
November 6th, 2006 at 4:00 am
Fuck Islam. Fuck Christianity. Sorry, I have begin with this statement whenever something about Egypt comes up. Because, let’s face it. 90 percent of All of Egypt’s problems are always traced back to either of these two. Now I bet after that interview the lady interviewer went back home, took a hot soothing shower, went to her cupboard and pulled a massive black coloured 20 inch dildo with french ticklers at the bottom. Then she proceeded with pleasuring her rectum in self satisfaction over the towers of morality she thought she was fucking in that interview. How can anyone allow this self satisfying whore to change the focus of the interview from the heinous and terrible crime this rapist commited to a conversation about wearing Saudi Clothes and what Satan is saying to him? What has this got to do with religion?. Rape is WRONG regardless of what a woman wears. Even if she’s walking down the street naked with cucumbers hanging off every orifice in her body. Rape is WRONG and Unacceptable. End of Story. But what do you expect, with religion being a whore that is a marketable product to be used to sell anything in Egypt. From girls’ dolls to TV shows. Add to that the absence of talent among people in Egyptian Televesion and you’ll end with pig shit like that on TV all the time.
November 6th, 2006 at 4:57 am
Cucumbers?
November 6th, 2006 at 5:07 am
I always learn so much at Sandmonkeys…
November 6th, 2006 at 5:57 am
That woman is fucked up. I can’t believe she is telling him to pray. Scary, scary stuff and she is definitely leading him on to get the answer she wants.
November 6th, 2006 at 6:44 am
OT.
Andrew Bolt says that Australian Muslims failed the test:
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,20690632-5006029,00.html
New Zealand Muslims failed the test also:
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=23232&only&rss
November 6th, 2006 at 8:00 am
Bjon, actually Philosophy is a french specialisation, (by the way that was mine for baccalaureat)
teach its logic to Hei, sometimes he get digressed
November 6th, 2006 at 8:34 am
I found it hard to believe rape had anything to do with religion until I got my head around some of the testimonies from muslims raping non-muslims. I mean, rape was a crime before Islam and Christianity.
But it seems rape is “allowed” as a defense in court as long as it was ‘correctional rape’. The victim becomes the person who committed this crime, essentially.
What a weird way to look at the world.
November 6th, 2006 at 8:50 am
Religious hate seen as motive in killing
Fremont slaying: Muslim leaders and relatives of Afghan American mother shot at point-blank range say only motive they can imagine for anyone wanting her dead was the garment of her faith, her head scarf
Local Muslim leaders on Friday denounced as a likely hate crime the brazen daylight shooting death in Fremont of a mother of six, and police said that they had arrested a parolee described as a “person of interest” in connection with the slaying.
Killed Thursday by a single bullet to the head as she walked with her 3-year-old daughter on a well-to-do residential street, she was distinguished by a hijab, the head scarf worn by some devout Muslim women. The Afghan immigrant had no purse or money on her, family members said.
Stunned relatives and Muslim leaders said the only motive they could see, outside of insanity, would be hatred.
“Whoever did this did not see Alia Ansari, a mother of six children,” said Sheikh Hamza Yusuf, one of the nation’s most respected Muslim scholars and leaders, who spoke to the media outside of the Ansaris’ modest two-bedroom apartment. “He saw a symbol of something that people are taught to hate.”
“All that we can assume is that it’s a hate crime,” said Hassan Ansari, 23, the youngest of Alia Ansari’s seven siblings.
Fremont police said Friday that they don’t know why Ansari was killed. At about 2:40 p.m. Thursday, she was walking near Central Avenue and Glenmoor Drive with her 3-year-old daughter to pick up two other children from elementary school when a man opened fire before fleeing in a car.
“We still have no definite indication as to motive,” said police Sgt. Jeff Swadener, a department spokesman. “Was it racial? Was it a hate crime? Was it a street robbery or a random act of violence? I don’t know.”
Police said a 27-year-old Fremont man was being held on an unrelated parole violation but remained a person of interest in the homicide. His name wasn’t released.
Police detained the man about an hour after the shooting and about a mile away. Officers pulled the man over near Mowry Avenue and Blacow Road because he and his black Toyota Tercel matched the description provided by witnesses, police said.
“We’re still up in the air as far as the actual involvement or linking to the homicide,” Swadener said.
The Alameda County coroner had planned to do an autopsy Friday, but Ansari’s relatives said they want to keep her body intact because of their religious beliefs. A coroner’s spokesman declined to discuss the delay but said a decision on how to proceed could be made Monday.
Islam prohibits the desecration of any dead body, said Yusuf, co-founder of the Zaytuna Institute in Hayward, believed to be the first Islamic seminary in the nation. In addition, only female relatives are allowed to wash and view a naked female body.
Yusuf said that an autopsy of just Alia Ansari’s head, rather than her full body, would be acceptable.
Hassan Ansari, Alia’s brother, said family members were planning to take legal action to stop the autopsy, but said they were leaving the decision in the hands of her husband, Ahmadullah Ansari.
Throughout the day, a weeping procession of dozens of relatives and Afghan community members filed into the Ansaris’ apartment in the Glenmoor neighborhood of Fremont. It is a short walk from a cluster of Afghan businesses often called Little Kabul, the economic heart of the largest Afghan community in the nation.
Friends and relatives said they could see no reason, other than the head scarf, why a stranger would want to kill Alia Ansari, who was often described as “kind” and “innocent.”
Most classical interpretations of Islam require women to wear a head scarf, although only a fraction of American Muslim women wear one, several female Muslim leaders said.
“What happened here is an act of terrorism,” said Rona Popal, executive director of the Afghan Coalition, which provides services to the community. “There is no reason to shoot an innocent woman walking down the street, holding her child.”
Local Muslim leaders and the victim’s relatives attributed blame to an American culture of violence, propagated through movies and video games that reward players for killing. In addition, they said things such as talk radio, politicians and religious zealotry by some Christians had focused on Muslims since the Sept. 11 attacks.
“Justice will not be served by merely catching the killer,” said Hassan Ansari. “We have to figure out how to stop these kinds of things from happening. … American society is what feeds people’s ignorance.”
“Mostly it’s the fault of the media, because they show Muslims in such a way that people hate them,” said Feraidoon Mojadedi, owner of the Rumi Bookstore in Little Kabul. “People are dying all over the world, but what did she have to do with it? She’s a housewife, a mother of children.”
Three women at the Islamic Society of the East Bay said they would continue to wear head scarves even if the killing was a hate crime. “Even if they wiped out everyone on Earth, I would not remove the hijab,” said Suzanne Azim, 43, a Hayward resident.
Alia Ansari, 37, had lived in the United States since 1986 and had become a U.S. citizen, family members said. Like many Afghan Americans, Ansari was a refugee from the war against the Soviet Union. She came from Mazar-e Sharif, where her sole sister still lives.
She typically drove to pick up two of her daughters from Glenmoor Elementary School, but left home on foot Thursday because of engine trouble. Witnesses said a man got out of a car, approached her and shot her at point-blank range before returning to the car and speeding away.
The young daughter who was with Ansari was unharmed, Swadener said.
When Ansari was shot, her daughter began crying and later told her family over and over, “A man killed my mother,” said Hassan Ansari.
Maria Garcia, who lives across the street from where the shooting occurred, said, “I didn’t see what happened but I heard the gunfire, and I heard the crying of the child.”
The slaying marks the second time someone in the victim’s family has been shot and killed in Fremont. In January 2002, Afghan community leader Rahim Ansari, 34, of Union City was shot and killed inside his business, Pamir Travel, in Little Kabul.
The suspected gunman in that incident, upset over a spurned romance, also wounded Rahim Ansari’s brother-in-law, Zabiullah Ansari, a second-cousin of Alia Ansari. In an interview Friday, Zabiullah Ansari, 48, expressed hope that the right person had been arrested. But he said, “They don’t know what happened.
“You’re killed in front of your kid — how can people do that? They’re not human beings. This lady was totally innocent. Why did someone shoot her? “
November 6th, 2006 at 9:02 am
# X Says: on November 6th, 2006 at 8:50 am ….
Is there some relevant point to your story ?
Or is this just the usual
“Muslims can’t be wrong because we’re always victims“
November 6th, 2006 at 9:12 am
No Just reporting a important story
November 6th, 2006 at 9:25 am
nomade,
Oh no! Not French philosophy!
Sartre!
Camus!
Merleau-Ponty!
Derrida!
Althusser!
de Beauvoir!
Foucault!
All of it is so much nonsense. French people should have gone the English way and embraced things like evolution rather than deconstructionism and postmodernism.
Such a shame, too! The French were huge contributors to the hard sciences 100-200 years ago. They need to abandon this philosophical crap and return to pursuing science.
November 6th, 2006 at 9:29 am
Gross.
Thanks SM and Memri.
November 6th, 2006 at 9:31 am
Tommy
What are YOU offering in place of the French philosophies that you deride ?
Some homespun fixation perhaps?
November 6th, 2006 at 10:48 am
Tommy, apart Merleau-Ponty, (his writings about esthetism), I would not take care of the philosophical side of Sartre or Camus, they are more novelists, with a smart style
De Beauvoir, ? a suffragette, what could you wait from an engaged writer, not a philosophy !
Foucault and Derrida and Althuser, I forget about them, Till the time they get well known, I was not at studying philosophy anymore, but history of Art
But anyway the basic part of our philosophy is Descartes, with the logic
November 6th, 2006 at 11:33 am
X, that lady is from Afghanistan and there may well have been an outstanding inter-tribal bill to be settled(drugs, honours etc), which is the most likely scenario.
The refusal of an autopsy also strange — maybe she was covered in bruises? Anyhow, I don’t think there is an option to refuse if a crime has to be investigated.
Also, sometimes people kill others at random, it may well have been some iced up kiddie having some ‘fun’ in a drive-by shooting.
Until we find who did it, we may never know.
The rapist guy in the video is a product of the macho culture, combined with a single digit IQ. And the excuse of ’she seduced me’ is being tried across all religions, it takes various forms, skimpy clothing being only one minor form, there are many other lame excuses, and that lady in the masses of fabric will find that if she ever gets raped, an excuse will be found and it will show that she is guilty of raping her self, whilst using an innocent, helpless male as a sex-aid.
Just to be practical, here is a reminder how to deal with those kind of morons:
http://www.videojug.com/film/how-to-deal-with-an-attacker
November 6th, 2006 at 11:40 am
Tommy …
You may also like to know that all modern science (including especially the nuclear physics employed by Iran and the USA) relies expressly upon the “Cartesian method” (named after René Descartes) and the “Occam’s razor” deductive method named after the Englishman William of Ockham.
Of course, in the USofA you do have well-known names in creationism.
November 6th, 2006 at 11:58 am
Anyone else notice that he said he would rape “anyone” dressed in those clothes, even “a little girl”
:shudder:
November 6th, 2006 at 12:24 pm
Its an old video , I’ve seen it before… dont remeber where though… (maybe it was memritv… )
It has been proved that a rapist does not stop at a hijab or mini skirt… Islamists who want to perusade women all around the world and push them into a prison of the hijab , niqab and what not… are seriously disturbed and need to be stopped.
The whole al islam huwa al 7al approach of the reporter is scary , her questions raise concern and more importantly the fact that our friend the rapist is illetrate and probably comes from a what is called a low and poor social class (unemployed) should and need to be adressed. When will we really irradicate illetracy ? (even though our uni. graduates are quite often a pathetic excuse for an education… )
November 6th, 2006 at 12:32 pm
Tommy,
you post this link:http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=23232&only&rss
heres the response I could not post because retgistration is closed; but it relates to the themes generally discussed here.
Late to the debate, but equally surprised at the article because i have heard nothing hear about this. truth be told the are very few muslims in new zealand– those there are are of indian, mostly fijian indian, descent, not very radical, rather efeminate, interested in family and minding their own business. We have a muslim MP (politican) who is very liberal (i mean upholds strongely western values) and a good role model for NZ muslims.
We do unfortnautely (thanks to america! or maybe our lefty PC politicans) quite a number of somalian immigrants, who are largely illiterate and strongly wahhabist. I heard stories by freinds in immigartion that somalian al quaeda opeatives (some asshole sheik) came to new zealand and tried to convert the Maori (native new zealanders) to islam and presumably, terrorism. Unfortuneoly the Maori are very tribal and largely christian (there folk lore myths draw strongly parallels with jesus) and they were’nt having a bar of it. New Zealand also maintains a secret service which monitors dpartment of immigartion carefully.
November 6th, 2006 at 12:39 pm
#35 X Says: November 6th, 2006 at 8:50 am
Religious hate seen as motive in killing
In your story (and contemporary media reports) “Religious hate” is repeated although as yet there is no perpetrator or evidence of that.
In San Francisco on August 30, 2006, Omeed Aziz Popal, a Muslim native of Afghanistan intentionally struck 19 pedestrians with his black Honda Pilot SUV and now faces a murder charge and 18 counts of attempted murder. He had killed a man earlier in Fremont.
Religious hate did not get a mention in his case - which seems to indicate that “Religious hate” is a malady of which Muslims are incapable.
Glad we’ve got that sorted out.
November 6th, 2006 at 12:56 pm
Did anybody else’s jaw drop in disbelief when this guy was using terms like “courage” to describe rape? When he referred to his victim as “not human”? When he said that “God fearing women” are not rape victims? Is he “human”? Is he “God fearing”?
And the smugness of that bitch who was interviewing him- aaaargh!!!!! Makes me want to hit something.
This is what’s wrong with Islam- really- this moral highground bullshit where people like this woman in a black tent think they are better than everyone else. This is what’s wrong with Islam- the pointing of the finger at others and the blindness, the stupidity, the ignorance.
November 6th, 2006 at 1:08 pm
Disclaimer: I am a non-muslim western expat living the Gulf the past few years.
Now to the comments on the TV reporter. That woman is wearing standard Gulf national dress. She wouldn’t be allowed on TV as a Gulfie/emirati in anything else. In fact what she’s wearing - with the bold embroidery, and the heavy make up - would NOT be considered modest by many men and women here. So the criticism of her for wearing as some sort of act of ostentatious piety it is unfair and ignorant. She is not “taking satisfaction” (certainly not that I can see). Most GCC woman on TV would come from fairly progressive backgrounds (or their families would not allow them to be on TV) and they would be highly unlikely to condone the rape of women in any circumstance, or “blame” them for their dress.
Looking at it journalistically, I also don’t see her pushing an agenda. I do see her trying to expose the the fact that menu use women’s dress as motive/reason/excuse for rape. That is the crux of the issue. At no point do I see her condemning nor supporting that view, she remains impartial. In fact later on, she sounds angry and incredulous at the rapist (not at the victim’s alleged clothing).
I do see her leading the man to some extent, but she probably had to, he is not forthcoming at times. Whether this is an appropriate/ethical tactic when interviewing a difficult subject is up to individual judgement. In my view it’s fine, she doesn’t go too far. It’s probably that they would have spoken to him extensively off camera first, and pre arranged the subject areas.
Notice that there is a cut (fade down) before the first clothing question. In the full version, it probably appeared far less “out of the blue”. There are cuts/edits at later points as well.
One criticism I might make would be for the interviewer not picking him up on the “little girl” comment. However until I have seen it with an impartial translation (Memri is not in any way impartial, and their accuracy of translation has been called into question on several occasions - see their Wikipedia entry for details) it is not possible to be certain what he really means by “little girl”. He may have used a term meaning “young woman” or “young girl” - ie that refers to a 16 year old, not a six year old (which is how it could be interpreted from Memri’s translation). If he did use a term meaning a “little” girl, then the interviewer should have picked that up.
“seduced” is another rather uncomfortable term: however it’s relevant here. The main excuse in this part of the world be sexual offenders is “the devil tempted me” “her beauty seduced me” “her body tempted me” - is, total abnegation of responsibility with blame implied on the victim. I also think the the interviewer is prompting the man from a statement he made earlier, she’s reminding him of his story (his excuse).
As for the “muslim ending”: it’s not the way I would do carry out a TV news interview, but I can imagine a similar treatement might be used on US evangelical TV, asking Jesus for forgiveness, etc.
November 6th, 2006 at 1:16 pm
And in the context “jounalism”, very curious in an Arab country to use a woman interviewer for such a “sensitive” interview !
November 6th, 2006 at 1:38 pm
secretdubai
For the record- I am expat Egyptian living in Australia and a non-hijabi Muslim woman (or cat meat if you like!)
I’m sorry but I don’t see what you’re seeing at all.
I do see her pushing an agenda and I do definitely sense a smugness and moral highground about her. The fact that she might come from a progressive background in order to be on TV is of no consequence here really. The way she looks increduously at him when he says he is unable to read- she even tells him to “try to read”- does she not understand that he is illiterate- it all just smacks of high and mighty to me.
I agree with you about the ‘little girl’ translation- in Arabic the words he used would translate more into young girl/ unmarried- not little girl.
But I just can’t agree with you on anything else- I’ve watched it again and again the most salient thing to me is her manipulation of the interview to make a point. If she was impartial she would not have asked what the victim was wearing- she would have asked why he did it.
November 6th, 2006 at 1:44 pm
“The most salient thing to me is her manipulation of the interview”
Absolutely - the whole miserable thing is a setup, not an interview.
November 6th, 2006 at 3:04 pm
Secretdubai
I could be mistaken but this woman does not appear to be a journalist unless you consider the religious nuts on the 700 club to also be journalists. She repeatedly asked him questions about clothing to make two points 1) girls who are not covered are seducing men to rape them and 2) girls who cover are respectable good girls who no one would ever harm. Neither of which are true.
She clearly has a religious goal in mind with this interview. Everything about her from the Koran she offers to her clothes are there to suggest one thing.. women who cover are good girls who follow Allah and will be protected.
And no, it is not naive to find this disturbing and creepy. People like her are going around the world now. Muslims rape women around the world and blame it on the vicitms skin showing. I find it creepy and disturbing that she is supporting this bullshit and yes, I think the women who dress like this VOLUNTARILY are doing so only to profess their piety to the world.
November 6th, 2006 at 3:22 pm
Usual Suspect and Lisa,
I saw this exactly as you just expressed, too. Sorry, secretdubai. I understand your views, but I just didn’t see it that way either.
To add to the philosophical debate, my very favorite philosopher of all time is Spinoza (Jewish-Dutch). I’ve adored him since I was 15. I think Aristotle and Socrates were pretty good too.
French? Voltaire, perhaps. English? Bacon and Locke.
November 6th, 2006 at 3:30 pm
Well I have to be partisan. Bertrand Russell - not only for the philosophy but the one-liners just as good as Groucho Marx’s.
I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong.
Life is nothing but a competition to be the criminal rather than the victim.
Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so.
November 6th, 2006 at 3:51 pm
Nomad,
I’m glad to see you don’t take Sartrian existentialism, Althusser-style Marxism, or deconstructionism too seriously.
Sean Shalor,
What are YOU offering in place of the French philosophies that you deride ?
How about common sense, science, and logic? Really, do we need existentialism or deconstructionism?
You may also like to know that all modern science (including especially the nuclear physics employed by Iran and the USA) relies expressly upon the “Cartesian method” (named after René Descartes) and the “Occam’s razor” deductive method named after the Englishman William of Ockham.
Exactly. That is why I think the French should get with the program again. Forget Derrida and get back to Descartes (and Ampere, Pasteur, etc.).
November 6th, 2006 at 4:04 pm
OK Tommy,
You take care of the creationists and Westboro Baptists and then we’ll let you in on the European Prgram
November 6th, 2006 at 4:10 pm
Sean Shalor,
Creationists hardly lie at the heart of America’s intellectual establishment. Nice try, though.
November 6th, 2006 at 4:18 pm
Reveal to a breathless world then, what does lie at the heart of America’s intellectual establishment (and where is it) ?
November 6th, 2006 at 4:24 pm
http://www.patrobertson.com/
November 6th, 2006 at 4:29 pm
OK - I submit.
November 6th, 2006 at 4:33 pm
Tommy,
we never left Descartes, it is our humanism
German philosophers took a big deal too in our ways of thinking
Ampere, Pasteur were scientists
November 6th, 2006 at 4:48 pm
Et parmi les géants français, Henri Bergson - who was not only smart, but looked so much like Charlie Chaplin.
November 6th, 2006 at 4:51 pm
yeah, I forgot Bergson, be he seems to be outdated nowadays
November 6th, 2006 at 4:54 pm
Nom de chien que le temps passe
November 6th, 2006 at 5:17 pm
quelle inconscience !
November 6th, 2006 at 5:36 pm
I have to admit that France has produced at least one good product in recent years and she features prominently here.
November 6th, 2006 at 5:46 pm
you mean Leatitia Casta ?
otherwise I don’t know the guy, and LC seems out of her usual parts, here it is more like an american Video, I hope you have better photos of her
for Racoon : how the whores in Tel Aviv are ?
http://www.woostercollective.com/2006/11/whores_in_telaviv.html
November 6th, 2006 at 5:50 pm
Yes, I mean LC, nomad. As for Chris Isaak, perhaps you’ve heard this song before. The woman in this video is the Danish model, Helena Christensen.
November 6th, 2006 at 6:04 pm
I remember those melodies But they didn’t impressed me that lot, (it’s for parties, and I don’t drag any more:lol:)
I am surprised by your tastes, I thought you were more like a hard rock fan
November 6th, 2006 at 6:07 pm
Nomad
Draquer does not mean the same thing as drag (nuancé pd)
November 6th, 2006 at 6:13 pm
i am a saudi arabian women living in north america…i agree with some of the comments presented…however, this interview is made to be bias toward islam because its a religious show. The purpose or the goal of the episode is to address the topic of dressing conservatively. The problem with it is that they brought it using a very sensitive example that leads to angry audience. we cannot deny the fact that since its a religious show it must promote a certain ideology..if it was a social show that addresses issues in the social context they would bring other sides to the argument. this topic was addressesd mutliple times using various speakers that argued this point. the huge problem is to confuse islamic ideals and the way its practiced…i would also like to add that if this guy was a true practising muslim he wouldnt have raped the girl or even killed her. the many muslims that rape and kill and bomb and destroy life are like that many christians, jews or hindus that kill, rape, bomb and destroy. they are not followers of the faith they are just labelled as muslims , christians or whatever. we cannot judge a whole religion or country (US and bush) by the actions of a few…its stupid and plain ignorant
November 6th, 2006 at 6:17 pm
thanks Sean, then what is the translation ?
November 6th, 2006 at 6:32 pm
tommy, in the same vein :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjSES2d31p0&eurl=
November 6th, 2006 at 6:50 pm
I am surprised by your tastes, I thought you were more like a hard rock fan
I like a lot of different music, Nomad. But no George Michael, please!
I like hard rock and metal bands like Anthrax, Sepultura, Slayer, Alice in Chains, Ozzy Osbourne, Type O Negative, Sex Pistols, Motorhead, etc. But then I also like the Corrs, Sarah McLachlan, Natalie Merchant, Tori Amos, and some U2. I also like Pink Floyd, the Eagles, Smokey Robinson, the Rolling Stones, Bob Marley, a few Elton John songs, and many others. I enjoy a lot of classical music too. Rachmaninoff is probably my favorite composer.
November 6th, 2006 at 6:53 pm
Welcome, Reborn. I don’t know that I necessarily agree with everything you are saying, though I certainly doubt that the individual in question was a very religiously devout person.
November 6th, 2006 at 7:19 pm
# 73 Nomad
“thanks Sean, then what is the translation ?”
Draguer translates literally and in the vernacular, as “to pull” .
If you succeed, you “score”.
Personally, I don’t very often
November 6th, 2006 at 7:27 pm
A very interesting thread.
LOL at the Whores in Tel-Aviv, Nomad. When’s it from, this summer? I havn’t seen them around…
Oh, and the absolutely best thing to come out of France in the past 20 years at least is Le Parkour. It’s becoming popular in Northern Israel lately, and I applaud that
Sorry for OT…
November 6th, 2006 at 8:13 pm
hehe, Racoon sems like your people like our surburb sport
and the “whores” is a kind of ephemere art exhibition, I don’t know when , may-be now , check in your city !
Sean sorry for you, may-be you should try some kind of Tommy musics
and for “drag”, the sense is for both sex here, doesn’t mean scoring at least
November 6th, 2006 at 8:30 pm
Nomad,
“Sean sorry for you”- No problem, I like a quiet life - my choice (C’est qu’ils disent Non?)
and for “drag”, - used as an adjective to describe a man dressed as a woman classically a “drag queen” (travesti [travelo] ). Often an entertainer, any kind of sexual orientation.
November 6th, 2006 at 8:44 pm
je connais “drag queen” too !
November 6th, 2006 at 10:38 pm
Nomad - nah, can’t be now, it’s been raining like the deluge lately. From the sunlight and clothes I’d say the exhibition is from the summer.
And yeah, Le Parkour is growing in popularity. Good thing, too - it’s kind of like French kung-fu. Bound to give the kiddies something constructive to do and develop them mentally and physically.
November 6th, 2006 at 10:46 pm
Uh, hello, my name is uh, Borat, and I am from Kazakhstan.
In, uh, Kazakhstan…women are treat, very respectlike. If they wear short clothes, men help them to remove, and then they, ah, put penis in place comfortable, yes?
I see video, and I think, “Ah! yes, finally! I understand women now, they evil, they, ah, seduce us with their clothes! yes! I go out and find respectlike woman now, so she seduce me. I can help by visit places where women not wear long clothes, yes? Like, sporting event? Ah, cheerleaders? how about, ah, women run in marathon? they should be punish for seduce me!
November 6th, 2006 at 11:11 pm
Coming in a little late in the piece - Nomad, I walked down that street twice today and didn’t see these signs, but they certainly are fitting, as they describe the rental market, which has shot way out of proportion these past few months, and so it is definitely contemporary. And Raccoon, it hasn’t been deluging all day every day - there was a lot of sun yesterday and even today had its sunny patches, the photos could have been taken this month. Certainly not in summer - that guy’s wearing a jacket! who wears jackets in summer?
Apart de cela (taking the French theme on a little), shocking video, but what can one seriously expect from a guy who’s illiterate, and whose only source of knowledge, therefore, is what people tell him? My question is - why is he illiterate? And what are the illiteracy statistics like wherever he’s from? And most importantly, if the statistics are high, why doesn’t the relevant government care enough about these people to at least ensure that they reach adulthood being able to read? It doesn’t excuse his crime, but it certainly goes a long way to explaining his attitude to it.
The ‘interviewer’ (or preacher) is a different case entirely. And I agree with the points raised here about her agenda - totally transparent, though arguably, not to the perpetrator.
November 7th, 2006 at 5:44 am
Reborn Says:
“he many muslims that rape and kill and bomb and destroy life are like that many christians, jews or hindus that kill”
You may not return to this discussion board but I’ll comment anyway.
Firstly, There are not many jews or christians I know who kill for there religion- or rather who kill because they think its for a purpose which their religion will tolerate, there God that is…I know christians have killed in recent history muslims (albania, etc), but I think that was political, and not undertaken with some crazy idea that they will get a direct pass to heaven.
what sort of scares me about, well, the taliban for insatnce, is that basically they are largely the descendents of warring tribal people who have been killing eachother, themselves, anyone, for centuries…war is a game to them, its habit, tradition, its what they do! Then you add the fundamentalist brainwashing machine called jihad into the mix and they have no fear of death because they become matyrs immediately…
November 7th, 2006 at 11:59 am
Reborn Says:”the huge problem is to confuse islamic ideals and the way its practiced…i would also like to add that if this guy was a true practising muslim he wouldnt have raped the girl or even killed her. the many muslims that rape and kill and bomb and destroy life are like that many christians, jews or hindus that kill, rape, bomb and destroy. they are not followers of the faith they are just labelled as muslims , christians or whatever. we cannot judge a whole religion or country (US and bush) by the actions of a few…its stupid and plain ignorant”
What makes you think that Islam “ideally” is any different from Islam “actually”? Or more specifically, do you think that perhaps Muslim men who want to rape get any moral support from Hadiths like this one:
Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3371:
Abu Sirma said to Abu Sa’id al Khadri (Allah he pleased with him): 0 Abu Sa’id, did you hear Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) mentioning al-’azl? He said: Yes, and added: We went out with Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the expedition to the Bi’l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing ‘azl (Withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid-conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah’s Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah’s Mes- senger (may peace be upon him), and he said: It does not matter if you do not do it, for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of Resurrection will be born.
So to recap - the Muslims attacked some Arabs and took some of their women captive. They wanted to sell the women back to their husbands and fathers but wanted to have sex with them. So they did. Do you know any free Arab women who would consent to that? Do you think that perhaps the odd Muslim man reads something like that - or listens to a Mufti who has read that and dumbed it down a little for his audience - and thinks “hmmm, rape is Sunna”?
Can you name any other religious leader, and I’ll grant you Moses comes close, who allowed his followers to do such a thing? You think that has no effect? Can you name any place where Jesus or Buddha said anything similar?
Finally you’re attempts to smear Christians and Jews is interesting, but ignores the fact that Muslims are disproportionately raping women in the West - over half the rapists in some countries like Norway and only Muslims are killing any numbers of people in the name of their religion.
At some point I think we can judge a whole religion if a whoe religion does something or teaches something. It is true that not all Muslims are terrorists but terrorists are grossly disproportionately Muslim. You think there may be a reason for that that isn’t my fault?
November 7th, 2006 at 1:11 pm
there are less rapes in the Muslim world than others such as America and South Africa. They need Islam man to stop them from raping girls.
November 7th, 2006 at 3:53 pm
Louise,
I was wondering the same thing about #13 I am a Canadian.
I hope that this “brillant grad.” when he/she gets a job, will not be given important responsibilities in our wonderful multi-cults society, because we will be in bigger trouble than we already are now!
November 7th, 2006 at 4:29 pm
i luv egypt Says: November 7th, 2006 at 1:11 pm
“there are less rapes in the Muslim world”
As you would say … Source for this claim please ?
And - how about Muslims in non-Muslim countries ?
And is this statement supposed to mean something - if so what exactly ?
November 7th, 2006 at 5:35 pm
Sean la forme tonight on dirait
November 7th, 2006 at 6:05 pm
Mardi - rien d’autre à faire.
Salut
November 7th, 2006 at 8:24 pm
of course pas de cours !
November 7th, 2006 at 10:32 pm
This Hadith you refered to is incorrect…i have the copy of the sahih muslim and i wasnot able to find it..plus to the idiot that refered to taliban and sucide bombers as muslims or jihadist fundamentalists..we donot consider them as muslims..ok..It really sucks that you seem to forget that islam is the extension of judiasim and christianity. We believe in the basic rulings taught in the torah and bible. However, the quran is too difficult to understand even arabic speakers are unable to extract the arguments put forth. Thats why we rely on the statments quoted by the prophet or his followers. These statments are very subjective thats why its not supported by many. The ones agreed upon by many are used but the others that are not agreed upon by many are dismissed.
November 7th, 2006 at 11:23 pm
Reborn,
“We believe in the basic rulings taught in the torah and bible.”
Care to back this up with examples?
Superficialities aside, Islam has about as much in common with Judaism as Luciano Pavarotti has with a tomato. IMHO.
November 8th, 2006 at 12:11 am
read it your self and be open minded and you will see that the 10 commandments are the major themes throughout the whole book…readd…readd..readd..please read extensively and you will see..donot make remarks without reading and researching..i have not made any negative remarks about judaisim or christianity because i demand respect and i think this is the only way to get it..respect others they will eventually respect you..i have several points about how jews and muslims and christians act similarily but i will refrain from discussing them because i am in a blog that openly expresses its hatered for all muslims and islam and doesnot care who and why..
but trust me on this one..they are as similar as pavarotti is to a tomato..
November 8th, 2006 at 3:01 am
reborn,
“plus to the idiot that refered to taliban and sucide bombers as muslims or jihadist fundamentalists..we donot consider them as muslims.”
Well’ i’m not about to argue with you about what techically passes for a muslim (apart from, ok yes, one of the monotheitistic commandments of: ‘thou shall not kill’, which you seem convinced is so much part of the koran via judeo-christanity) I want argue over techiqualities like that but conisder the matter as it stands in the world today where the ‘madrasses’ in pakistan and afganistan are churning out fundamentalist psychos, or dancing monkeys ready to jion the ranks of the lastest jihad militia, anywhere and everywhere, if the end result is death to the infidal…
Its the wording which is the key here:
madarass= islamic bible school
jihad=armed resistence against enemy to islam
infidal= anyone who does not beleive in allah.
I think being educated in a madarass pretty soundly classifies you as a muslim. No?
November 8th, 2006 at 3:22 am
ONe last point,
no I do not thhink that the koran or islam as a teaching is inherently xenophobic or vicious but one should consider the context in which islam developed, which harks back to my first comment: the arabs on the peninsula were compose of little nomadic bands who warred with eachother, in a tit for tat manner, season after season, since time immemorial– infact there only source of revenue was through plunder; they were largely theives and bandits; (look at whats happening in the sudan today, militia groups murdering and pillaging the helpless: these maniacs call themselves ‘arabs’! racing from village to village on there camels and shooting at anyone who gets in there way). Now islam developed from a brutal place and was transferred by a brutal people. Many muslims today look at themselves in the mirror and apart from the many and varied schools of learning which islamic civilisation created eventually, they see only themselves and those warring, conquering, tribal bands of arabs who flew out of the peninsula on horses and plundered everything in their path.
November 8th, 2006 at 3:38 am
wow what an interesting way to look at the earlier arabic community as theives and bandits…for your knowlege..previous islamic and arabic scholars pionered in geometry(derived from arabic word), science, astrology and philosophy. No one can ever deny the great contributions made by the arabic and islamic communities. Its just been covered up by the negative exposure due to bias media that focuses on pakistani madrasas..r u serious..that is in rural areas that were fascinated by the idea because they want to create an army that would fight the hindus and in what y can you brain wash people only by instilling wrongful ideals of God and Heaven…and islam is not built on a tit for tat manner as the christian an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth its built on the premise of forgiveness and tolerance…but as i have stressed upon variously muslims are the worst example of what the teachings of islam entail…i am very ashamed to say im muslim because of the actions and behaviours of the masses…and readdddddd before you speakkk…sucide bombing and killing innocent foreigners or inhabitants is forbidden in islam..the act of forcing ones ideals on a group is also forbidden the only way we are allowed to wage jihad if a person invade our house, our country our land an act of defence…that is not condoned by other religions..
The muslim community is the fastest growing in the world, however the number of them practicing islam properly are a feww…this is a sign in our religion for the end of time…which is exhibited noww..
The majority of the Islamic commuinty is non-arab…includes asians, south-asians and convertees….
November 8th, 2006 at 8:50 am
#98 Reborn Says:
“previous islamic and arabic scholars pionered in geometry, science, astrology and philosophy.”
We are always hearing this claim - but where is the science and technology base in Islamic countries ? Squandered - like the oil revenues that keep a few fat Islamic potentates drowning in cash while their barefoot “brothers” live in grinding uneducated poverty.
If the Muslims were so great at astronomy, how come the majority of mullahs still believe that the world is flat just because the Quran says so ? Which do you prefer, tradition or survival ?
The West has built imperfect but working, passably egalitarian societies that Muslims want to live in and then to “reform” back to the days when women were owned and differences settled with a sharp knife.
“readd..readd..please read extensively” Acquire an extensive knowledge of of your forefathers excuses - reflect on the fact that “it is written” and when the baby dies of hepatitus “Allahu Akbar min kulli shay” will fix everything.
Reborn - you have to earn collective respect by your actions, not your words.
November 8th, 2006 at 9:53 am
“The muslim community is the fastest growing in the world, however the number of them practicing islam properly are a feww…this is a sign in our religion for the end of time”
I would agree with this statement– its true for most religions. Few are they who accurately follow the teachings of the religion they worship. Its like 10% in most cases. HOWEVER! we in the west, unless you worship devoutly and regularly, do not call ourselves ‘christain’ or budhist or whatever. Whereas in islamic countries it seems that you can drink all you like, never pray, and still get away with calling yourself a ‘muslim’. Now whats that all about?
“geometry(derived from arabic word), science, astrology and philosophy. No one can ever deny the great contributions made by the arabic and islamic communities”
And MAN are you guys stuck in the past or what?! …Yes, yes, yes, I know islamic scholars contributed massively to things we take for granted today, via the greeks ofcourse; so did the romans and the jews, and well the chinese developed gun powder and paper money among other things, and south americans agriculture and astroloogy, and pacific islanders navigation, and , and, the list goes on; but who cares about that anymore; today is today’ get with the programme and start living in the twenety first century will ya! None of that stuff matters anymore, not since the west during the ‘enlightenment’ engineered the new levels of thinking and in sceince, which have made much of the important but now quite distant thinking obselete.
November 8th, 2006 at 10:57 am
Reborn Says:”This Hadith you refered to is incorrect…i have the copy of the sahih muslim and i wasnot able to find it”
Then you are not looking hard enough. This is a famous event and it is referred to a lot in the aHadith collections.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 3, Book 34, Number 432:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
that while he was sitting with Allah’s Apostle he said, “O Allah’s Apostle! We get female captives as our share of booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interrupt us?” The Prophet said, “Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do it. No soul that which Allah has destined to exist, but will surely come into existence.
Volume 3, Book 46, Number 718:
Narrated Ibn Muhairiz:
I saw Abu Said and asked him about coitus interruptus. Abu Said said, “We went with Allah’s Apostle, in the Ghazwa of Barli Al-Mustaliq and we captured some of the ‘Arabs as captives, and the long separation from our wives was pressing us hard and we wanted to practice coitus interruptus. We asked Allah’s Apostle (whether it was permissible). He said, “It is better for you not to do so. No soul, (that which Allah has) destined to exist, up to the Day of Resurrection, but will definitely come, into existence.”
Also Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 59, Number 459; Volume 7, Book 62, Number 137; Volume 8, Book 77, Number 600; Volume 9, Book 93, Number 506; the Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3371; Book 008, Number 3373.
Also from legal books like, assuming you’re Egyptian, Malik Muttawa Book 29, Number 29.32.95:
Yahya related to me from Malik from Rabia ibn Abi Abd ar-Rahman from Muhammad ibn Yahya ibn Habban that Ibn Muhayriz said, “I went into the mosque and saw Abu Said al-Khudri and so I sat by him and asked him about coitus interruptus. Abu Said al-Khudri said, ‘We went out with the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, on the expedition to the Banu al-Mustaliq. We took some Arabs prisoner, and we desired the women as celibacy was hard for us. We wanted the ransom, so we wanted to practise coitus interruptus. We said, ‘Shall we practise coitus interruptus while the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, is among us before we ask him?’ We asked him about that and he said, ‘You don’t have to not do it. There is no self which is to come into existence up to the Day of Rising but that it will come into existence.’ ”
By the way I love this one: also from Malik Book 29, Number 29.32.100:
Yahya related to me from Malik from Humayd ibn Qays al-Makki that a man called Dhafif said that Ibn Abbas was asked about coitus interruptus. He called a slave-girl of his and said, “Tell them.” She was embarrassed. He said, “It is alright, and I do it myself.”
Malik said, “A man does not practise coitus interruptus with a free woman unless she gives her permission. There is no harm in practising coitus interruptus with a slave-girl without her permission. Someone who has someone else’s slave-girl as a wife, does not practise coitus interruptus with her unless her people give him permission.”
You think there is something wrong with having sex with a slave girl without her permission?
So if you’re going to argue with me over this subject you will have to do better than claim you cannot find it.
Reborn Says:”plus to the idiot that refered to taliban and sucide bombers as muslims or jihadist fundamentalists..we donot consider them as muslims..ok”
Who is “we” here? Who are you to decide who is or is not Muslim? The fact is a majority of Muslims seem to think that the Taliban and the suicide bombers are good Muslims. What evidence do you have that they are not so considered by most Muslims? Besides, what does it matter if you think they are good Muslims? What matters is what they do and why.
Reborn Says:”It really sucks that you seem to forget that islam is the extension of judiasim and christianity. We believe in the basic rulings taught in the torah and bible.”
Well no you do not. I agree that Islam is derived from Judaism and to a lesser extent Christianity but you’ll notice Jews and Christians do not go around blowing people up. There are a few basic rulings there a lot of Muslims seem to have missed.
November 8th, 2006 at 11:04 am
Reborn Says:”wow what an interesting way to look at the earlier arabic community as theives and bandits”
Well there’s an argument but just for the record, can we agree that as soon as Muhammed got to Medina he started sending out Muslims to raid the Quraysh and steal their property?
Reborn Says:”for your knowlege..previous islamic and arabic scholars pionered in geometry(derived from arabic word), science, astrology and philosophy.”
Actually geometry is obviously a Greek word and I do not accept these claims. The Greek pioneered all those fields, the Arabs conquered the most advanced parts of the Classical world and did not ruin them completely right away. But the Muslims were mainly interested in theology, not science and so I do not know of a single Muslim who translated a single Greek work in Arabic. As some Jews and Christians became Arabic-speaking, they did, but not the Muslims. That was, after all, jahilli wasn’t it?
Reborn Says:”and islam is not built on a tit for tat manner as the christian an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth its built on the premise of forgiveness and tolerance”
You have got that exactly backward - Christianity rejects the Jewish principle of an eye for an eye, but Islam does not. An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth is precisely the basis of criminal law in every Muslim country that even attempts to enforce Islamic law. It is not, and almost never has been, the basis of Christian law. The Puritan Fathers aside, I can’t think of one example.
Reborn Says:”sucide bombing and killing innocent foreigners or inhabitants is forbidden in islam.”
Sheik Qaradawi does not think so. He says that in the right circumstances it is fard. Why is that?
Reborn Says:”the act of forcing ones ideals on a group is also forbidden the only way we are allowed to wage jihad if a person invade our house, our country our land an act of defence…that is not condoned by other religions.”
If only that were true. Don’t let me convince you otherwise, but it is of course not true. What had Rome done to the Arabs that caused them to invade? What had Spain done? The last sermon Muhammed made, he called on his followers to conquer the world.
Reborn Says:”The muslim community is the fastest growing in the world”
That is because Muslim countries are disproportionately poor and hence disproportionately illiterate. Even among poor countries, Muslim countries are more literate than equivalent African ones. Even among poor countries, Muslim countries are far less likely to teach girls to read. Birth rates are determined by poverty and female illiteracy. Islam is growing so fast because so many Muslimas are poor and illiterate. Is this something to be proud of?
November 14th, 2006 at 7:26 am
well guys , we have to admitt … our society as a whole is going down hell in every thing ,, its realy sad .. but what can we do ??????
This is a very serious question that am hopping every body to try help us find the answer….
November 16th, 2006 at 8:21 pm
HeiGou needs to study history a little more deeply. Geometry, along with mathematics and astronomy/astrology was well developed in Mesopotamia (Summeria-Babylon), Persia and Egypt long before the Greeks began to study and work with it. The word Geometry is simply a greek translation of a science which was developed elsewhere.
Were it not for Islamic civilizations, much/most of this knowledge would’ve been lost to the west, which was revived by the Scholastics of the Middle Ages who had a great deal of contact with Arab Scholars in Spain and Sicily. I should also add that the Arab scholars did not simply “translate” the Greek material into Arabic, but they continued to develop and refine it–as did the Greeks before them.
November 23rd, 2006 at 1:15 pm
[...] Egypt is listed by Reporters Sans Frontieres as one of the 13 Enemies of the Internet, a Black Hole of information, yet, since the Eid al Fitr attacks, discussion and debate has erupted online about what could have caused this outburst of violence against women. On Al-Ahram Weekly, one commentator see this as part of a larger pattern of frustration at economic and social divisions in Egypt, while another speculates that young men see “women’s bodies as the only battleground between Islam and the West.” Bloggers female and male have speculated on whether it’s down to sexual frustration among young men. Sandmonkey even points to a TV interview with a man he says is a convicted rapist on Egypt’s Death Row, in an attempt to “make some sense of the Eid attacks”. [...]
February 23rd, 2007 at 11:37 am
Western woman of WASP background living in The West says:
“I’m with Reborn on this.” (see post number 72)
February 23rd, 2007 at 11:43 am
By the way, you men: Why don’t you have a look at the kinds of thing that get said in court to women who try to have the men who raped them punished?
I guarantee you there have been university educated, white, native-english speaking judges who have asked rape victims what they were wearing at the time. Women lawyers in the legal system also do it. Blaming the victim is not the exclusive terrain of modest yet selfrighteous young Islamic women.