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Saturday, 11 Nov 2006
I can't take this anymore.
Someone sent me another video, this one taken in Cairo stadium, where a woman attending a game got her cloths torn up and had to be rescued by the guards and cover herself with the flag she was carrying. Another proof that this has been happening all around us, for quite a while now, and we had no clue what so ever. The signs that something like this was building up for a long time now, and we were just not paying attention. Or maybe we didn't want to pay attention. Maybe we thought those men who would expose themselves on the streets and publically masturbate were not going to take things to the next step and try to have sex on the street , with whomever they could get their hands on.
We are such morons.
I don't know what to do, but I am more and more filled with a sense of urgency that something needs to get done. This has to be remedied. And I don't know how, cause I don't personally get it. I can't identify. I can't think like they think. I can't even imagine what the world would look like from their point of view. All I know is that they are not victims, as some people I spoke to claim. Those are people whose urges are not going to be fixed with better jobs or more education, because rapists come from all social classes and I would really love to see that class that could teach a rapist that rape is a very very bad thing. They need to be locked away. Every single one of them. There shouldn't be any tolerance to this, from us or the law, because the next step will be them trying to get into our houses and raping the girls there. Hell, they may already be at this stage. We are just unaware of it. And unfortunately no veil will protect you then either.
Women of Egypt, you better not waiver on this. Talk to your fathers, brothers, mothers and sisters. Make them aware that this is becoming an issue they just can not ignore nor hide away from. You better not give an inch. This is it. The final fig-leaf! Don't budge!
Time for this shit to end.
November 11th, 2006 at 2:06 pm
God bless you Sandmonkey. It’s refreshing to hear a man in the middle east take a stand to hold the men accountable for depravity instead of trying to blame it on women and using it to justifying the oppression of women. Bravo. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. You give me hope.
November 11th, 2006 at 2:09 pm
you are right about rapist, but look at what Islam teaches. It gives men a free pass, its always the womens fault. Isnt this the logical result? And the fact that you have too have all this money to virtually buy a wife and sex is soo damned taboo. Its a very sick society.
November 11th, 2006 at 2:22 pm
This is how I see it from the outside:
Islam tells women how to dress and behave. If you dont behave like this, muslims think its ok to harrasse you. And it works! In fear of being harrassed in different ways like being called a whore(either behind your back or directly), grabbed in the street, raped and so on, women starts wearing hijab and acting just like the muslim male mob wants the women to behave.
You see imams support this facist control of the muslim women by saying that if you dont veil you are self to blame if you are being raped. In other words: Women are to be treated with respect as long as they behave exactly the way the muslim men tell them to.
November 11th, 2006 at 2:24 pm
I think we all agree that there is no excuse for these sick rapists. The attempts to play the victim card (”poor little rapist has no job or future; cant get a girl friend etc etc”) are simply attempts to project blame away from the perps. But still, there is clearly a social problem here that needs addressing: what is society doing to these young men that turns them into this sort of animal? We here in the USofA are looking at a not unrelated problem with the disappearence of male undergraduates in the universities. Not good.
November 11th, 2006 at 2:28 pm
Apart from being dreadful, this is very strange. Is it just happening in Egypt or in other countries as well ? Of course I don’t mean rape per se, sadly I know that is endemic everywhere … I mean this public and apparently guilt-free stuff with most attendant males acquiescing.
November 11th, 2006 at 2:32 pm
chellebelle_mn, true Islam doesn’t teach anything like that… it’s those retards who interpret it in their own chauvinist self-serving way who ought to be blamed.
November 11th, 2006 at 2:39 pm
I have many muslim friends,some of them realy see the unveiled girl as deserving molestation in the street coz she’s the guilty one..and this what realy happened in Mid Town they firstly sought the unveiled girls although I was in mid town that day and I saw many many veiled girls walking alone and others sitting on the Kornish enjoying with their BFs and ofcourse no-one could tell them anything…but you shall see that veiled girls in the future would be molestated like un veiled girls,and maybe then the Niqap would be the suitable dress for all girls and Egypt is gonna be just another KSA!
November 11th, 2006 at 2:45 pm
If someone rapes a wife or daughter of mine, and I catch him or know who it is, his relatives will find his corpse hanging from the nearest utility pole, sans genitalia. It boggles my mind that an honor-conscious society would have it any other way.
November 11th, 2006 at 2:49 pm
But surely that “unveiled” thing is just a convenient excuse isn’t it ? Surely the male participants in this hysteria do not actually believe that they are dispensing some form of justice in the (misguided) way that lynch mobs do ? Is not individual gratification the driver in these situations ?
November 11th, 2006 at 2:51 pm
And there is an issue that they appear not to frear retribution !
November 11th, 2006 at 3:05 pm
Sam -
You don’t get it because you are CIVILIZED! You can’t imagine doing it because you are CIVILIZED. You can’t get inside their brains because you see women as humans, not owned things.
But yes, it’s time for anyone who claims to be civilized - starting with the imams, the fathers and husbands of potential victims (and any human with a vagina is a potential victim) to say that it stops and it stops now. The victims in the Eid rampage were as likely to be in hijab as not … veils will not stop a rapist!
The “culture of shame” around rape has to stop: the men are secure in their belief that they will not be reported because the women have been taught that if they lose their virginity it shames the family. The shame should be put squarely on the rapist/molester and his family for not bringiing him up to respect women.
I would like to see large groups of veiled women - in the full veil and gloves (niqab?), surround these men and paint “rapist pig” on their foreheads with indelible dye. Silver nitrate would work, and the black gloves would prevent any stains on the woman. I would then leave them duct-taped to lamposts.
My oen inclinaiton would be to cut their clothes off and leave them bound and gagged in “doggy style” position for the police to amuse themselves with, but I odn’t think Egyptian women are ready for that sort of retaliation.
November 11th, 2006 at 3:09 pm
We all kind of listen more careful to the messages that we like to hear. Egypt has not anymore a culture based on rational thinking. It is based on one religion and what is says, many( not only in egypt) make up an opinion not based of their own free thought and analysis, but on what differen authority figures tell them. You dont have to tell young hormone filled guys twice that it is morally acceptable to throw yourself at whatever you find too sexy. And the guys who do the harrassement have not even heard of critical thinking.
So yeah, the “unveiled” thing is a convenient excuse, but it is a convenient excuse built by the religious culture, and it works in favor of the religious.
November 11th, 2006 at 3:15 pm
If you’re right Denning - and I guess that you probably are, then the whole male establishment (including Police) are “in on the act”. What a mess. How then are the women to be saved from this absurd epidemic ?
November 11th, 2006 at 3:29 pm
There are two ways for the women to be saved from this:
1. Run away. Preferably to USA…
2. Stand up. Say what you mean, and be willing to die for you cause. If all woman and all decent arab men did that you would have a hope. And if you aske me; If there are any cause worth dieing for, this fight for freedom may be the one.
November 11th, 2006 at 3:39 pm
Well then - so it’s an endemic Islamic problem. And since the Islamic polemic is that it has no faults, it won’t get fixed.
No wonder Sandmonkey is gloomy - so am I.
How can such a crap piece of doctrine get to be called a religion ?
November 11th, 2006 at 3:44 pm
Guys, I am sadly asking you to watch this as well
http://www.youtube.com/watch?search=&mode=related&v=JSFejapu2Ek
November 11th, 2006 at 3:46 pm
Denning - running is an interesting solution… given the tremendous support for Sharia from Muslim populations in the West. Just ask Sheikh Hilali.
There is no solution but a massive paradigm shift in both the West and East.
Just a reminder - Christianity also used to be very, very sick. Tens of millions of people died due to religious presecution - witches, heretics, homosexuals, Jews, what have you. Horrible wars were waged in the name of religion. People were burned alive. And all of this was changed, with a massive paradigm shift… brought about by plague, more war than what the people could stand, and serendeptitious political events.
I wonder how many will die and how much time will pass until Islam has its awakening…. if at all, given the doctrinal differences with Christianity.
November 11th, 2006 at 3:51 pm
Talking about the islamic attitude in Egypt..yes It contributes to a big extend,but poeple who do this are poor uncivilised poeple who don’t know how treat a woman from the first place,and this is thanks to Islam ofcourse and thanx for the women themselves…women has agreed to take this culture of sheep keepers and now they complain ..what the hell do u exepect !!! you made ur self look like garbage bags in this veiled uniform ,and ofcourse a garbage bag can’t play any role in life but taking the poeple shit!!
November 11th, 2006 at 3:59 pm
I’ve got to put a foot down right now and say: You’re all wrong.
For GOD’S SAKE, did you already forget that Islam forbids disrespecting women ? Also that it’s highly forbidden to touch a woman in a way that she doesn’t want? To stare at them, like the people do? And last but not least to RAPE them? Fornication is one of the worst sins in Islam, so what about compulsion along with that too? Are you seriously trying to tell me Islam advocates all that? ISLAM SAID IT’S ALL WRONG, 100% WRONG, AND NOTHING YOU WILL SAY WILL CHANGE THAT.
Didn’t you ever consider for once, that these perverts are going to get punished for that? According to Islam, they are. And they’re going to get it hard. So do NOT mix up Islam and these fuckheads’ behaviour.
Jeez, get a clue for crap’s sake..
November 11th, 2006 at 4:08 pm
Raccoon - I fear you may be right - although our government in the UK is now far removed from the views of most of the population and elections loom soon. Here’s hoping that the absurd overindulgence of Islam with which we are currently afflicted may then be rectified. If not, there may well be many English joining the flight to the USofA.
November 11th, 2006 at 4:11 pm
Raccoon, the reason i wrote “preferably to USA” is just the situation in Europe that you mention. It is getting increasingly difficult for muslims in many European areas to avoid the controll that the strikt religious men try to impose. USA is still (despite the resent election) the home of the free and the land of the brave. Just see where Wafa Sultan and Ayaan Hirsi Ali have ended up..
The Catholic church and other church groups have done a lot of bad things during the last 2000 years. But compare the New Testament to the Quran, compare the life of Jesus to the life of Muhammed. And you will find the reason for the different level of civilization.
Ideology matters. Wether religious or not. It is my main agenda in life.
November 11th, 2006 at 5:33 pm
Hello islam hate club!
Just wanted to tell you that rape is a crime and it has nothing to do with islam, how many women are raped in the USA per minute BTW ?
November 11th, 2006 at 5:38 pm
hey Denning,
about 600 years from now the Catholic church was crucifying scientists who would say Earth is not the center of the world(because it was against the NT). while Europe were importing science from the islamic world.
the western world only began to develope only when they left their religion behind their back, and the islamic world began to be left behind only when they started to give their religion up.
November 11th, 2006 at 5:43 pm
I think it’s because the tribal focus on “modesty” comes through Islam in much greater force than it does in Christianity. In the West, women were believed to have invited rape if their behavior was suspect - but for Christians this meant being drunk, being flirty, being dressed in a “seductive” way. The difference is that the definition of “seductive” in the West has become much more flamboyant than in our Puritan days. And men are encouraged to look at women in the West, contrary to Islamic nations. The more women expose themselves, the more “civilized” most men become. (Do the pygmies or bushmen of Australia commit rape? What about the Ancient Egyptians?) The more women cover up, the more their sexuality is heightened in an unhealthy way. Having “laws” to protect women in the way Islam does, seems ineffective to me. It’s like prohibition.
November 11th, 2006 at 5:47 pm
ahmad
Those things may be interesting or important but are nothing to do with the subject under discussion. This is your problem - you cannot discuss or even consider problems which concern your ideology without having to scream hate hate hate. If only you could get a hold on your desire to confront and to be a victim and to trade blow for blow … why do you think Muslims have such a reputation for unreasoned aggression - look in a mirror and see the answer.
November 11th, 2006 at 5:48 pm
ahmad, agreed! Religion doesn’t have to left behind totally, though. Our leaders were simply “enlightened” in their outlook at the time of our founding. That’s what Raccoon meant (#17).
November 11th, 2006 at 5:49 pm
BTW that marine who raped a 16 years old iraqi girl, and later burned her body and killed all her family members what sentence did he get?? two years in prison ?
November 11th, 2006 at 6:02 pm
Thanks for the demonstration ahmad
November 11th, 2006 at 6:32 pm
Here we go again. Whenever anybody are discussing problems in muslim comunities, people like Ahmad shows up and want to talk about everything else but the problem. I know you benefit greatly on todays situation in the arab world. Cause im sure you wouldnt be able to get some otherwise. So i understand you need for talking off topic.
Wether i hate an ideology or not is not an argument for or against the ideology of topic.
It is impossible to compare rape statistics in USA or Europe with rape statistics from the muslim world. This because of the muslim culture where the girl may end up being convicted for adultery if the proof are not solid enough. Male witness counts generally more than female in muslim countries and some places 4 male witnesses are needed for a rape crime to be punished. From this follows that rape is greatly underreported in muslim countries.
Where you can compare rape statistics are between ethnic and religious groups in western countries. All these statistics that exists show that men originating from muslim countries are 5-10 times over represented on the rape statistics.
Yes we had our dark european years. But if you had been allowed to learn anything else that muslim religous history at school you would know that Catholisism at that time were being used by the priests to gain power and wealth. only the Priests had access to read the bible because it was written in a language nobody else understood, and translation was forbidden. After the reformation where the people got access to the bible through translations and printing, very much changed. In islam it seems to be the other way around. The more the people get access to the text the more terror u see.
The scientific peak of the Islamic world is a whole other topic that i would love to discuss an other time. In that discussion i would like to prove that this peak came because islam had won several wars against some of the worlds at that time’s most highly developed societies.
November 11th, 2006 at 6:38 pm
To repeat myself: Of course we shouldn’t expect Muslim men to control those urges. After all we don’t expect our cats and dogs to. Instead we take them to the Vets office and *SNIP* - problem solved. So if we take all Muslim men to the Doctors office and *SNIP* - problem solved. Wasn’t that simple.
November 11th, 2006 at 6:48 pm
Ahmad,
You said that the Islamic world declined only when they gave their religion up. If the religion was given up why does it still exist? It wasn’t given up. Maybe people got a little lax with it (beginning of a reformation?) and they were progressing until someone (an extremist) told them that their social problems (which will always be there to some extent no matter what) were due to lack of religion and that they had to get back to the way it was during the days of the prophet. Then as more and more people were convinced of this the decline was hard and fast.
Maybe true Islam is not compatible with the nature of mankind and it is impossible to follow. It is against the nature of man not to think. To follow Islam means to give up critical thinking and without critical thinking you cannot evolve. You need to convince Muslims that going backwards is not progress. But I guess since the book says it is perfect for all times it is impossible to go forward. I don’t see much hope when I look at the Muslim world.
November 11th, 2006 at 7:07 pm
WOW. This thing happens everyday in LA. You guys should probably start blaming christianity for every crime which happens in America as well, if we are to be fair.
November 11th, 2006 at 7:08 pm
He Guys can someone actual point out to me where the quran approves these acts.
November 11th, 2006 at 7:25 pm
ahmad Says:
November 11th, 2006 at 5:38 pm
hey Denning,
about 600 years from now the Catholic church was crucifying scientists who would say Earth is not the center of the world(because it was against the NT). while Europe were importing science from the islamic world.
the western world only began to develope only when they left their religion behind their back, and the islamic world began to be left behind only when they started to give their religion up.
———————————————–
actually the scientists worked for the rich men who were popes and the vatacan was a good home for them . when another scientist threatened the established thought of the time they convinced the pope . he was dangerous and needed to be eliminated.
no different then the french acadamy of science to pasteur
November 11th, 2006 at 7:38 pm
No John, things like that don’t happen in LA everyday!
November 11th, 2006 at 7:42 pm
What is it about trying to have a discussion with Muslims ? It would be wonderful to know what their point of view REALLY is, but they always seem to perversely prefer evasion and faked photos as though the person they are talking to is an opponent who must be outwitted by deception. Is it somehow more honorable for them try to degrade every non-Muslim rather than exchange ideas.
November 11th, 2006 at 9:03 pm
Hi Sphinx!
I am sure that you want to believe that this is what islam teaches. And in a way you are right. Islam say that you should respect women, good muslim women. Just like i wrote above :”Women are to be treated with respect as long as they behave exactly the way the muslim men tell them to.”
Have a look at how your prophet treated non-muslim women. You can start with reading about his practice of takeing booty. How women were shared and traded like cattle, used as sex slaves. After that you can read the story about how your prophet came to marry a jewish woman. Come back and tell me what you think of the actions leading to the marriage. Then you can finish off reading 4:34 (or somewhere around that depending on the translation) in you book. What does it say about how to treat non obedient women?? Was it with respect?? ehm..
Most imams say it is unislamic not to wear a hijab. By not wearing a hijab you are not a nice obedient muslim woman, and are not entitled to the respect you are refering to.
I just ask you for one favor. please look into this. Dear to think critical about how your prophet treated anybody that did not 100% follows his word.
And tell me again, do the word respect come to mind?
November 11th, 2006 at 9:12 pm
So you really are trying to tell me that Islam says it’s ok to rape a woman. Right? Seriously? It appears you haven’t read my post correctly. Before you start trying to tell me about my own religion and my prophet:
You don’t have enough information about him. You didn’t really hear how he treated people except what supports your one-sided view. You didn’t live as a muslim, among real muslims and most of all, you didn’t learned enough about true Islam, and what being a Muslim is all about.
I did.
November 11th, 2006 at 9:13 pm
Forgive the couple of typos.. And a small tip: Watch a film by Mustapha el Akkad called “The Message”. That’s all I’m telling you for now.
November 11th, 2006 at 10:27 pm
BTW that marine who raped a 16 years old iraqi girl, and later burned her body and killed all her family members what sentence did he get?? two years in prison ?
Ahmed, why do you assume this? Did you bother to look it up?
Oct. 19, 2006
EVANSVILLE, Ind. - Four soldiers from the U.S. Army’s 101st Airborne Division will be court-martialed for the alleged rape of an Iraqi girl and the murder of her family, and two will face the death penalty, the military ordered Wednesday.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15320226/
November 11th, 2006 at 11:23 pm
I’m sorry guys but blaming this one on islam is just avoiding the issue; women are raped, assaulted and molested around the world, and are too ashamed to speak about it. I know too many women who have been raped, molested and/or assaulted (myself included) and guess what, where all too ashamed to speak out. We don’t report it to the police, even if it happened when we were children, because who would believe us, who would take it seriously? The fact that it’s happening so blatently in Egypt just goes to show that a culture of mysogeny has been alowed too flurish for too long. My respect goes out to you guys who take this seriously, but I’m sorry too say; men can be real assholes sometimes, irrespectable of religion.
November 12th, 2006 at 12:14 am
italics off
off
off?
November 12th, 2006 at 1:21 am
Rapes by Muslims is not confined to the Middle East.
Just look at the stories and statistics from european countries and the Netherlands where there are large Muslim populations. The majority of rapes are by Muslims.
Their faviorite targets are non-muslim girls. Even the very young girls are not exempt from this brutality.
What is the cause of this?
What do they all have in common?
Well, I sure can’t say it is because they are all Arabs, because they are not, they are Muslims from all over the world that have immigrated to other non-muslim countries.
So what is the cause of this?
What do they all have in common?
Papa Ray
November 12th, 2006 at 1:23 am
K from Oslo, I agree with you.
Almost two decades ago, I spent some months in Cairo. As far as I know, it was a Muslim city then. Concerning physical sexual harrasment, I remember it as the safest metropole I ever visited. While I would think twice about walking home after dusk in London, Rome or Paris, I did not hesitate to have an evening walk in Cairo. Other girls who lived there then confirmed that “feeling safe”.
I remember only one incident with a local, and he was stopped by pedestrians as soon as I told him to keep his hands away from me. When I told my Egyptian friends about the immediate support, they answered that sexual harrasment was considered to be a disgrace to society, and every molestor caught red-handed could not hope to leave the spot without a serious beating.
Of course, personal experience cannot claim to be representative; but the decency I met at that time really impressed me. So did the brave downtown people who made a stand against the outnumbering mob and the people who spoke up last Thursday. Molestors and rapists are immodest cowards who need to be shown that they cannot get away with it.
November 12th, 2006 at 1:37 am
Here is one place to find out about Women and Islam.
November 12th, 2006 at 1:52 am
Read this article. You tell me. What is the common thread?
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/12/world/middleeast/12dubai.html?ei=5090&en=9f607221de0c5e2f&ex=1320987600&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&pagewanted=print
November 12th, 2006 at 2:08 am
Shpinx, you refuse do deal with any of the issues i rased.
1. Prophet takeing women as booty.
2. Prophet forced marriage to jewish woman.
3. 4:34 Quran tells husband to beat wife who are not obedient.
4. General picture of how the prophet treated people who did not do exactly like he told them to.
What you did do was to try your best to put out some fog. You pulled out the classical mythical “true islam” that nobody has ever seen.
Try dealing with reality for a change.
November 12th, 2006 at 2:48 am
I also see other attemps on putting out fog in order to confuse and cover up the problem. Take “K from Oslo” no rational argument being made there. by using your way of building an argument i can get anything and anybody off the hook:
“why you blame the nazi ideology for killing jews? I know for a fact that christians, muslims, capitalists, communists and socialists have all killed jews. so nazism have nothing to do with willing jews”
I’m sure when your norwegian born 19 year old neighbour girl with pakistani parents are being married off to her 50 year old pakistani uncle we will hear you say :” Hey who are we to condem their culture and religion, look at Tom Cruise and Katie. Thats an age difference too. And hey, our own european kings married their cousins all the time.”
In stead of putting out fog. Try to dear to deal with the hard facts. Like some statistics.
To remove some of your fog I’ll make an example from you own city Oslo. In rape statistics from 2001 you can read that 65 % of the rapes are being comitted by men with non western background. 80 % of the victims are norwegian women. In 2001 people with non western background made up 14,3 percent of the population in oslo. Who are these non western rapists? Try telling me that most of them are not muslims! If it is still not clear for you, I can present to you the swedish rape statistics from last year. They concluded with “ethnic background is main factor in rape statistics” The over represented ethnic groups came from different parts of the world. But they all had one thing in common. They are all muslim ethnic groups.
So you put out fog, try to be as political correct as you can be, you are not stepping on anybody’s toes and you are not hurting any body. Right? NO ! WRONG!
By talking like you do and constantly trying to let these cultures off the hook, you are betraying the suffering muslim women. They are crying for help, wanting people like me and you to fight for their freedom. But you are killing their hope.
How many thousand muslim women in Oslo do you think have lost their opportunity of freedom because people like you dont want to get “dirty” by critizise an other culture and religion?
Shame on all of you fog machines!
November 12th, 2006 at 3:00 am
Ok, one more thing.
Given all the violence crime statistics in where muslim groups are over represented. How do we explain this. Well I have hear people try many excuses. Like growing up in war. War traumas and so on. But hey! We have several immigrant groups that are not muslim who also have fled from horrible wars, But they do not stand out in the statistics.
If you are not willing to admit that it is the cultural and religious background that counts. you are left with one factor. Genes and rase.
So you have the choice. Do you wanna be a racist. OR
Do you say like me:
Ideology Matters!
November 12th, 2006 at 3:34 am
Wow- my reaction to your post SM was kind of strange- on the one hand I’m really glad that there are men out there who are trying to do something about this issue. On the other hand, I cannot help but feel sad and dissappointed that, only now, is this issue being taken seriously. When I lived in Egypt and put up with sexual harrassment and humiliation almost everyday, when I was followed home at night, when I was groped, when I was touched- why wasn’t this an issue then.
I guess what I’m trying to say is that it is very nice and good and all that you SM are paying attention to this issue- but you must be very naive or very blind or something if you did not know that this is happening and that it has been an ongoing problem for many women in Egypt.
As for this thread- it’s no surprise that people are going to turn to Islam as either the driver or the solution to issues. It’s also no surprise that the reaction to people like Ahmad and the Sphinx who have some very valid points to make are dismissed.
Perhaps, Denning and Ian M, the notion that you can’t have a discussion with Muslims about these issues is your own construction of what is being said. Perhaps it serves you very well to see their arguments as nothing more than whinging or whining or whatever. Perhaps it is you too who need to look in the mirror.
There is Islam and there is the interpretation, the manipulation and the practice of Islam. When people forget that God has given them a brain, a heart, free will and the faculty to use them, they became sheep- lazy followers of men with their own agendas- masses who bleat and baa in unison without ever seeking the truth. But this issue of sexual harrassment was around long before the Wahabi mentality took hold of the Egyptian masses. It used to be like men in Italy- you know a bit of a slap on the bum and an admiring gaze. But somewhere along the line, those who would use Islam to control the masses, and the masses who would bleat and baa in unison took hold and now it is no longer “harmless fun” (not that it ever was).
Oh and Bec- re #24- The Australian Aborigines are not bushmen and they would be very offended by that remark. Apart from that, the Aboriginal women here cover themselves- they consider it shameful to reveal so much of their body. They do not wear swimsuits for example, preferring instead long shorts and t-shirts.
November 12th, 2006 at 4:51 am
Usual Suspect, my bad. I was actually thinking of the bushmen of Africa and Australia sort of popped in there somehow. (I actually did a paper on the religion of the Australian aborigines in college - I’m not as ignorant as I sounded!) Just tired tonight. If you’ll notice, I was the source of rampant italics twice tonight - although I did fix them.
And I have not one to blame Islam, per se, of being responsible for rape. I agreed with Ahmad in #26: “the western world only began to develope only when they left their religion behind their back, and the islamic world began to be left behind only when they started to give their religion up. (NO italics) But I also gave the opinion that it would not be necessary to give up his religion (as Raccoon and others had noted), only modify it. Perhaps you are reading people the wrong way sometimes, too? Or am I still not getting it?
Sorry if I offended!
November 12th, 2006 at 4:56 am
[as Raccoon and others have agreed, I mean]
I’m going to bed! I had dreams about spiders attacking my face twice last night, waking me up with a start, and I haven’t been myself all day.
November 12th, 2006 at 5:08 am
Wait a minute. I wasn’t so far off as far concerning the modesty of Australian aborigines. I thought you were mistaken. The modesty they display now is similar to the type displayed by Hawaiians - both were caused by the mores of European cultures.
http://www.lib.monash.edu.au/exhibitions/aborigines/xaborcat.html
(Number 4, I think)
November 12th, 2006 at 8:25 am
Denning, conviction statistics tell something about the criminals who got caught. But the figures are not representative for rape or rapist profiles:
According to European surveys, only 10-20% of the rapes are reported to the police. 90% of the rapists are in personal relationship with their victims: kinsmen, partners, ex-partners, dates, “friends”. The remaining 10% of the rapes are commited by strangers. With about 30%, strangers have the highest probability to be reported.
An example for such a survey:
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/r159.pdf
There are other factors contributing to a certain bias. Two of them are age and standing out: Most criminals commiting non-domestic violence are young men (under 25). Compared to the European population, this age group is significantly overrepresented among immigrants. If reported, strange offenders have a higher chance to get caught if the victim remembers some distinctive features. Not looking like the average local or speaking with a foreign accent might be such features.
November 12th, 2006 at 9:01 am
India,with 300,000,000 Muslims doesn’t have this problem. They have millions of cows roaming the streets. And where there’s cows,there’s sexy young heffers. Heffers without veils.
November 12th, 2006 at 9:29 am
The Usual Suspect Says:
November 12th, 2006 at 3:34 am
“Ian M, the notion that you can’t have a discussion with Muslims about these issues is your own construction of what is being said. Perhaps it serves you very well to see their arguments as nothing more than whinging or whining or whatever”
I wish that were so. I am part of ~20% non-Muslim where I live. I don’t have anything to prove or to gain by this regrettable state of affairs. It is just part of the culture where. as has been said, critical thinking is not part of the scheme of things, rather blind obedience to a creed. I do not blame folks for carrying on their back(s) a monkey that was put there by their community. I am very sorry for them because it cramps their lives unecessarily and will probably destroy them in the end. I BELIEVE in dialogue, not in trading insults.
November 12th, 2006 at 9:35 am
you know what too, islam and muslims are to blame for all the earth quakes and volcanos in the world
November 12th, 2006 at 10:06 am
BEc
No offence taken at all- hope you have a good night and feel better
Ian M
Yes I take your point. I also think that there is little to gain from disengaging with people. Instead, let’s open up the dialogue. Ofcourse people are going to start off on the defensive but this is normal human reaction. How can we get past that if we simply dismiss them? I know only two well, as a Muslim, how I get dismissed by both camps- by those Muslims who percieve me to be an “apologist” and by those in the broader community who percieve me to be unable to engage in critical debate because of my religious beliefs.
The public sphere where people can openly and democratically discuss and debate and contribute to debate is critical to democracy and to participatory citizenship. When we deny one group that practice we also deny them political identity which only contributes to their perceptions of isolation, victimisation and disenfranchisement. By the same token, where we allow a minority group to dominate the public sphere on issues that are of concern to the broader polity- as I believe in the UK where Muslims dominate on issues that concern everyone but that they argue are ‘Muslim’ issues- we are also hindering the abiltiy of people to practice their citizenship rights. So- we cannot let either Muslims or the broader community to dominate the debate or dismiss the views of others. Issues concerning Muslims impact on the broader community and there has been little recognition of that especially in the UK (not where I live by the way) which has now resulted in the broader community feeling left out of the political process.
Apart from all of this, the crux of the issue we are discussing on this thread is sexual harrassment and abuse. If we get caught up in cultural and religious dialogue we may miss out on the real point. Sexual assault happens in all cultures and religions. Do we skirt around the issue and argue among ourselves that it is Islam or Christianity or ethnicity or culture to blame or do we acknowledge that it is a serious social problem for all nations, for all religions, for all cultures that needs to be addressed?
November 12th, 2006 at 10:18 am
58 The Usual Suspect Says:
Various things about sexual assault …
Yes but - the burning issue here is the fact (or belief you would say I expect) that for reasons conventional to Islam, women are disenfranchised and neither considered nor treated as the equals of men. There are many (well-worn) anecdotal ways of illustrating this and one can argue endlessly about the rights and wrongs of it. As you rightly say …
“it is a serious social problem for all nations, for all religions, for all cultures that needs to be addressed?”
YES
and the necessary starting point is equality. People are people irrespective of whether they be man or woman. Equality means having the right to determine your own present and future, not subject to anyone else’s censure or interference.
November 12th, 2006 at 10:50 am
E in#54, you have a valid point, but again you are not willing to estimate the size of these factors.
I would say they may correct the over representation a few percentage points. But we are talking about an over representation of several hundred percent. In some muslim groups as high as 900%!
There are plenty of non muslim immigrant groups in europe that do not have an average look and a distinct foreign accent. Groups that also have experienced tramatising wars. Well ill give it to you that non of these groups have just as high percentage of young people as the muslim groups, but they do have a younger population than the average. People from Sri Lanka are just one example of such a group. Do they stand out on the rape statistics like the muslims? Do any other of these groups seem to be highly over represented? I’ll give you the answer. NO!
I am not here to bash every single muslim male. I am rather here to whip the western people who are making excuses for the rapists. And maybe try to make some of the many good decent muslims out there to wake up and demand that things are done.
Ideology matters! In general, if you are not willing to put the foot down on an ideology who causes a problem you will never get the problem solved.
November 12th, 2006 at 11:11 am
I believe that widescale sexual harrassment and violence towards women has more to do with the bruised male ego. Take a large group of young males with clinically low levels of self-esteem and no sense of professional success or self-determination, and the women in the community will suffer.
What’s happening in Cairo is just an extreme manifestation of the above.
And [little voice] I don’t think it has much to do with Islam [/little voice]. I’m not trying to excuse them, all I’m saying is they’re not doing this because the prophet told them to, but rather because they’re scumbags. Why they’re scumbags is an entirely different matter….
Just my two cents.
November 12th, 2006 at 11:50 am
Sandmonkey asked people like me to tone it down. It is his egyptian based blog, he to some degree stands responsible for what is being published here. I understand what you say, and i accept that my point of view is not welcome. I will never tone it down. I always say things just the way i think they are. If my opinion is not welcome I walk away rather than presenting things in a way that i do not think is right.
So in this case i will walk away. No bad feelings. I will still read (and love) your blog and i may write comments about issues where islam do not come into play. If that is ok with SM.
For the record: I do not see SM make any rational arguments. But i do see him using a lot of the words that people tend to use when they are running out of arguments (retarded, fucking and freakin).
November 12th, 2006 at 12:23 pm
Hmmm - think I agree with you Denning.
It’s Sandmonkey’s blog and he can decide who he wants to speak here - BUT I’ve never said anything that I thought was untrue or undeserved. I also think - last time I’ll say this I promise - that many of our weary world’s problems are due to the intransigence of Islam. Like Ian McC I live in largely Islamic area and have considerable relevant experience. Even among unsympathetic neighbours I say it like it is, or as it appears to me and can’t break the habit.
Bye all.
November 12th, 2006 at 1:21 pm
Ian
Equality is not a remedy to sexual assault. If so, how do you explain that sexual assault occurs everywhere even in nations where there is relative equality between men and women?
Sexual assault is an age old issue. There is no one reason or solution. Women are disenfranchised for a variety of reasons in various nations- again, even those where there is relative equality between men and women.
I’m not convinced that there is a correlation between sexual assault and the disenfranchisement of women. If it were so there would be no sexual assault in countries like the US, UK or Australia.
November 12th, 2006 at 1:33 pm
The Usual Suspect
“I’m not convinced that there is a correlation between sexual assault and the disenfranchisement of women.
If it were so there would be no sexual assault in countries like the US, UK or Australia. ”
I know this is not my dispute, but can you explain how those two statements are connected ? It certainly is not a logical connection. Isn’t that the kind of ad hoc deduction that folks here are taking issue with ?
November 12th, 2006 at 7:43 pm
BROTHERHOOD AGENDA …a seet up
to make woman stay at home ,just wait they will soon use it in politic
November 12th, 2006 at 7:52 pm
Ahmed you are hopeless …do get your facht rigth
wetout religion this would be a more peacefull world just look at eroupa
…just now the trubbels start wet all the religius muslim there
November 13th, 2006 at 4:16 am
Did you people really expect anything less than what you saw?
November 13th, 2006 at 8:30 am
Denning, #20, November 12th, 2006 at 10:50 a.m.:
“you have a valid point, but again you are not willing to estimate the size of these factors.”
Am I? Sorry for not having been plain enough.
You say, 80% of the raped women in Norway were locals. If I got you right, you also say, Muslim immigrants have a share of rapists which is up to nine times higher than the proportion in the Non-Muslim population of their host country.
The Western European statistics I know show me the following:
First, they tell me that in 90% of the rapes, the criminal is one of the victims’ acquaintances or family members. He is a partner, an ex-partner, the father, a brother, an uncle, a cousin, a “friend” –somebody who usually shares his victim’s religious background.
Second, they say that while this group is responsible for almost all rapes, their chance to get away with it is 80 - 90%: they do not get reported. Your conviction statistics shows only 10 - 20% of them.
Third, they say that the police learns about 10% of all rapes –at best.
Fourth, they say, the strangers’ risk to get reported for rape is up to three times higher than that of the intimate rapists.
Fifth, they say that non-domestic violence crime significantly corresponds with the offender’s age and sex (or gender, if you prefer). The group most likely to commit such a crime are men between 16 and 24 years of age.
Sixth, they say that this age group’s share in immigrants with a Muslim background is almost twice as high as the one in the general population of their Non-Muslim host country.
(For an example, see http://www.statistics.gov.uk You will find similar rates for other Western European countries.)
Do you still think that these points contribute to not more than a few percentage points of conviction statistics? If so, would you mind to explain why and provide at least one of your sources?
I would find it especially interesting to learn whether your sources show
a) a significant increase in rape rates after the rising immigration of Muslims or
b) a significantly higher rape rate in European countries with an outstanding high share of Muslim immigrants.
I could not find such a phenomenon in the surveys I know.
Please do not take me wrong: I agree with you that there is no excuse for rape. According to me, rapists should spend the rest of their life in jail, without the chance to ever put a foot out of it. No extenuating circumstances, no probation, no second chance. Same for those who are responsible for the so called honour killings.
But according to the information I know, it ’s fogging the facts to blame a specific religion for rape. Rapists come in all shapes and sizes, and most of them do not need to lurk behind the bush. They share their victims appartement.
November 13th, 2006 at 12:11 pm
I still stand by my opinion that a major part of the problem is not than Islam itself permits rape and sexual harrasment (though I find some of it’s attitudes towards women very disturbing), but that Islam helps create the social conditions that allow it to occur. It may be a catch-22 where your society has twisted Islam to help feed these problems.
Are these cases ocurring with the same frequency in your Christain districts?
Religion or not, you’ve got a problems over there and these are just sympoms. No society is perfect, but at least most have matured beyond animalistic behaviors.
November 13th, 2006 at 4:23 pm
No wonder you are dishearted with all of these comments.
I just wanted to say that if you could get some religious leaders involved in speaking out against this violence against women it could be very powerful. I’ve said this to you before, but I believe that it is really the men that need to change the other men’s ways. In America, it is still the responsiblity of the girl to be cautious, and not go out to certain places alone, and watch her drink at parties and still if a girl gets date-raped, many people would downplay it as being the girls fault for putting herself in that inviting situation. Many people who are “good Christian American, clean, decent honest people…” Give me a break this has nothing to do with Islam, it has to do with the patriarchal society of this world. And anyone who has spent time in the Mid East knows the difference. The problem is that too often these issues become woman issues, feminist issues, when sadly they are human issues. But they will only be recognized as such when it is both women and men that speak out against it.
SM- it is exhausting to continuously take on the problems of the world but you are doing a great job. And as frustrating as it must be to be bombarded with these comments about Islam, the people that read your blog are at least allowing themselves to step beyond the fearful anti-Islam rhetoric that is so sufficating in the West and learn a bit more, add another demension to their view and they couldn’t do that without this space that you have created.
Don’t loose heart and keep up the good fight.
B
November 13th, 2006 at 7:14 pm
Hi E! Thank you for putting it plain enough for a ”fucking retard” as myself. By principle I do not discuss any important topics under restrictions that are doomed to influence my message. But good decent discussion partners are rear (specially within this topic) and should be honoured. I see you have used some time with your answer so I will make an exception, because you truly deserve an answer.
You write good and informative about factors that may increase the over representation of muslim immigrants. From having a look at the numbers you present I would make an educated guess, that these factors counts for more that “a few” percentage points, but probably less than 100% over representation.
There are a couple of factors that points in the opposite direction. Because of certain new restrictions in this blog I can not go into details about them. But I’ll in ask you a general question: If you have an ideology (or a religion) which forbids a wife to refuse her husband sex at any time besides the “time of the month”. Would this kind of ideology lead to such a factor of unreported rapes within the apartment? Or if an ideology (or a religion) tend to blame the sex offence on the female victim, would such an ideology lead to more unreported rapes within the religious group?
You write that rapists come in all shapes and sizes, no doubt about that, but it is a useless statement in a statistical discussion. You also accuse me of blaming a specific religion for rape. I am not blaming this religion for all rapes ever committed.
I would say groups of people with a nazi ideology are likely to be over represented in harassment of Jews. People with an ideology that condemn abortion are more likely to be found harassing abortion doctors. Hindus or animal rights activists are less likely to harass animals. Communists are more likely to harass rich people and so on. We are all, in the case of statistical evidence, willing to automatically make the connection between these ideologies and the actions that follows from them.
Making the same connection between an ideology or a religion who do not think highly about free non obedient women, and their over representation in the harassment of these women would of course be wrong, because that would be a “retarded, fucking thing to freakin do”! And you would probably be labelled by the blog owner as “just as racist as the jew-hateing extremist muslims.”
Comparing crime statistics between countries has too many possible error for me to bother looking into it. First, there are so many different practises in how to register crimes. And the differences in under representation are very uncertain to say the least. Checking whether the number of rapes increases with the number of muslim immigrants is a better way of getting the answer. Take Sweden: Reported sexual crimes increased from 2783 in 1975 to 10142 in 2004. The exact same period where Sweden experienced and explosion in muslim immigration. And you now also see a shift from towards the more serious sex crimes. Between 1987 and 2005 the number of reported rapes of children (under age of 15) increased with 450%. http://www.bra.se/extra/faq/?module_instance=2&action=question_show&id=5&category page 87 and 95 (in Swedish)
An even more interesting statistical check would be differences in rape statistics between cities compared to the size of the muslim population. I see Sandmonkey is running a campaign here already. I haven’t had time to check the statistics there. But I wouldn’t be very surprised if they were accurate.
November 13th, 2006 at 7:30 pm
It is never a good thing to mix statistics with personal experience. So I make this an own post.
I am so blessed that I happen to have a female muslim Egyptian friend living in Egypt. Me and my wife met her while we were travelling Egypt, the hard way - by our selves. I could go on for hours about how my wife in particular were treated, but I guess I have “offended” enough people already. So ill take the short version: After days of constant verbal sexual harassment and some occasional grabbing’s, my wife couldn’t take it anymore and bought a veil. Then she suddenly was left alone.
Ok, then back to my Egyptian friend whom we still keep in contact with. Some months ago she was knocked down by a grown adult Egyptian male after answering back to verbal sexual harassment. After a short while a policeman came to the place. But when he saw in her ID card that she was a muslim (why the F*** do you have to state your religion in your ID cards?) he forgot all about the violence and told my friend that she as a muslim should wear a hijab, and her top was also too tight. She could just expect this then. My friend ended walking away saying: “Forget about it!”
This is not the first or the last time she has been physically attacked by men who do not approve of her dress code.