A truly american moment

An african American who converted to Islam gets elected to congress and gets sworn in on the Koran once owned by Thomas Jefferson. Tell me that isn't cool!

Only in America, man. Only in America! 

0 comment on A truly american moment

  1. Egypeter
    January 4, 2007 at 10:36 pm

    It’s really quite shocking to understand how the “Evil Occupiers,” “Great Satan,” “Evil Empire” or the “Decadent West” could allow a Muslim Congressman to use the Quran to be sworn in on, after all, isn’t America actively engaged in a War on Islam….

    I wonder if Egypt, or any other country in the Arab world for that matter, would allow a Christian, Jew or Bahai’i use their respective Holy book, instead of the Quran, to be sworn in under…I’m sure Saudi Arabia, Iran and Afghanistan would accomodate those of other faiths, right?

    Reply
  2. Skidude
    January 4, 2007 at 10:44 pm

    Unlike the present President, Thomas Jefferson had an extensive library, and was an eclectic reader. Jefferson no doubt was attempting to understand Islam, something that those in power today are incapable of doing beyond the standard PC “Islam is a religion of peace” gibberish.

    Both Jefferson and John Adams had as ambassadors and as Presidents had to deal with America’s first confrontation with the Jihad, the Barbary Pirates. Jefferson commissioned numerous battleships in the early US navy to confront the various warlords in North Africa that were attacking merchant ships and taking US prisoners for ranson and slavery.

    I hate to dissapoint you Sandmonkey, but niether Jefferson nor Adams had a favorable opinion of Islam.

    Reply
  3. annamouse
    January 4, 2007 at 10:56 pm

    Skidude, excuse me but have you ever seen the present President’s library to make such a silly pronouncement? Let me assure you that you are completely wrong about the library.

    Reply
  4. annamouse
    January 4, 2007 at 10:57 pm

    Yes, I agree that it is completely cool that any religion can and does thrive with respect in America. I hope that someday the same can be said for the entire world.

    Reply
  5. Skidude
    January 4, 2007 at 11:15 pm

    Oh, I forgot, George Bush is an avid reader and one of the great thinkers of modern times.

    Reply
  6. Chip
    January 5, 2007 at 12:49 am

    It was frigates, and Jefferson created the Marine Corps. The Barbary corsairs (that’s PC for “pirate” Arrrrr!) were paid enormous ransoms by the Europeans. “The more things change…” Anyway, after some close moments the U.S. won enough victories to be free from the piracy. In fact, the U.S. flag briefly flew over Derna, Tripoli: “…to the shores of Tripoli…”

    Jefferson was trying to figure out how people could raid ships, enslave the crews, demand ransom, and pretend to be religious at the same time. So he read the Qur’an. Then he knew.

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  7. naomi
    January 5, 2007 at 12:49 am

    Jefferson had this home, Monticello. He created all these interesting inventions, one being a thing that held like 5 books simultaneously so he could be reading all five at once. As well, when his dad died, he inherited like a bunch of slaves (500 or 800 — or something). It was a dire situation for him so he started having them educated into craftsmen, chefs, etc. so they could ultimately become self supporting. I learned this going to Monticello — and my facts may be off some cause it was a while back. In any case, the apathy of Americans about religion is real. Most of us aren’t willing to “die” for it because it’s written into law we can do it any way we deem fit. It’s kind of more a pain to deny someone their beliefs than just let them worship the way that gives them the most spirituality since we all benefit if someone is spiritually level. Course, we have our share of fanatics too! America is cool because of her diversity! It does make us somewhat clueless about homogenous societies and we’re really put off by like forced religious attitudes. There are cultural pockets of neighborhoods where it’s easier to do what the neighbors are doing or you’ll be antagonized, but there’s PLENTY of real estate across the country to relocate where it’s comfortable to practice what you wish.

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  8. chellebelle_mn
    January 5, 2007 at 12:56 am

    Ellison is from my fair state. And I am proud that we were the first state to send a Muslim to congress. This debate on what he takes an oath on has sadden me. That idiot from VA used it to justify his platform on immigration which was hilarious considering Ellison was born right here in the good old US of A and can trace his family back to the 1700’s.

    Our abilty to live together in relative peace is our strength, not a weakness. Instead of inciting our young men to fight against those “others”. They work, chase tail and start families. Of course there are elements of that here but most dont engage in such behavior. Chassing pussy has its bad results, but damn at least they are not committing suicide thinking they are going to finally get some pussy from God the Grand Pimp of heaven.

    Do you people ranting against the evils of islam really want to live in a world where our id’s contain our religion? Do you want to live in a world where you have not opportunity because you dont belong to the correct religion. Where you have to pay a special tax for not belonging to that religion?

    Islam has issues, but we outsiders will not solve those problems, that has been proven time and time again.

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  9. Puniqe
    January 5, 2007 at 1:13 am

    “It’s really quite shocking to understand how the “Evil Occupiers,” “Great Satan,” “Evil Empire” or the “Decadent West” could allow a Muslim Congressman to use the Quran to be sworn in on, after all, isn’t America actively engaged in a War on Islam….”

    Great minds think alike. I was just going to make a comment to that effect when I saw yours. 🙂

    Reply
  10. Copenhagen Lady
    January 5, 2007 at 1:14 am

    Could any of you Americans explain to me why people of Congress are not sworn in using the Constitution?

    Why the Bible or any other kind of holy book?

    And what does an atheist do?

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  11. Luigi_Aronson
    January 5, 2007 at 1:25 am

    Funny story about Ellison. My sister and brother-in-law belong to the same synagogue in Minneapolis as Ellison’s republican opponent. Ellison came to debate the guy (I think his name was Fine) at his home turf synagogue, and lost.

    Everyone in the synagogue hated this guy Fine, and just about all the Jews in his district voted for him, mostly because his republican opponent has such a bad reputation in business and his personal life.

    So Jews elected him.

    Also, I think Jefferson would think it was cool that Ellison used his Koran. It would make him think of cold Virginia nights when he would slip in and see Sally Hemings.

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  12. Egypeter
    January 5, 2007 at 1:29 am

    Right on Puniqe – Great minds DO think alike 🙂

    Now the trick is to get others to think like us, right?

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  13. naomi
    January 5, 2007 at 1:54 am

    Heh Copenhagen Lady. I’ll try to answer your questions but am the typical lazy American that will refer you to any number of Constitutional websites (Google: Constitution, USA, etc.) for factual info. After 7 or 8 generations here, I’d put my info on the “folklore” level. I think Congress-people are sworn in using religious media of their choice because we think they will promise to uphold the Constitution if they’ve sworn on their own souls, so to speak. It would be NICE for them to swear upon the Constitution to uphold the Constitution, but that would fly in the face of politics which is “many bloodsuckers” — so best they sully their own moral identities than the country’s as a whole. They are POLITICIANS thus possess no real moral values (otherwise they’d have real jobs) so it’s really to appease the ignorant that they show that they can touch a religious book without say being struck by a bolt of lightening or melting or turning into a pillar of salt or something. As for atheists, well we all know God believes in atheists even though they choose (with their God given free will) not to believe in God. However, I’ve still not had the chance to be at the bedside of a dying atheist — but we all know the athiest is probably screeching “God, help me! I’ll believe in you now. Help me!” Have fun. Keep it light. Being able to laugh in the face of diversity is what’s going to make it worth it.

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  14. Copenhagen Lady
    January 5, 2007 at 2:12 am

    Thanks for the explanation, Naomi.

    I wondered, because members of parliament here in Denmark are to sign a statement promising to act according to our constitution.

    But then, in these parts religion is considered a private matter.

    I have been at the dead bed of an atheist, and there was no screeching for God. On the contrary. But maybe that is another one of the many differences between USA and Denmark.

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  15. antares
    January 5, 2007 at 2:14 am

    Copenhagen Lady:

    Good question! There is no logical answer. That’s just the way it is done. Like that stupid stone that fits under the throne of the British monarch.

    The US Constitution is the document I hold most holy, and Independence Hall in Philadelphia is to me a religious site.

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  16. antares
    January 5, 2007 at 2:30 am

    Copenhagen Lady

    The beginning of the oath that US Congressmen (Senators and Representatives) take is ” I [name] do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.”

    Read the full oath here: http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/briefing/Oath_Office.htm

    Every officer of the gov’t takes a similar oath.

    It is notewothy that the fact that Ellison chose to be sworn in using the Quran is a trivial news item in the US. Its converse could not happen in Saudi Arabia.

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  17. Valerie
    January 5, 2007 at 2:56 am

    Swearing on the Bible is simply a tradition, based on the notion that people who are believers won’t lie before God. People wanted to do that, to show they swore truly, especially on formal occasions such as in court or when taking an oath of office. It is not required, and cannot be, under our laws. So if someone in this country swears on a holy book, they are saying that they freely give their promise before God as well as before the people who witness the act.

    Athiests simply affirm or promise. They do not use a religious book of any kind.

    It makes perfect sense to me that a Muslim would swear on the Koran. I don’t want anybody swearing on anything they don’t believe in. That would be a false oath, and oaths should be true.

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  18. Curt from Houston
    January 5, 2007 at 3:02 am

    “Could any of you Americans explain to me why people of Congress are not sworn in using the Constitution?

    Why the Bible or any other kind of holy book?

    And what does an atheist do?

    It is because Americans, at least the original ones, believed that their rights were derived from God and not subject to earthly interpretation.

    “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”

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  19. tommy
    January 5, 2007 at 3:10 am

    Qur’an aside, Jefferson had quite a negative view of Islam from what I understand. In interviews that I’ve seen, Ellison has struck me as a nice enough guy. His ties to CAIR make me uneasy, however. I wish Ellison would distance himself from CAIR and other questionable organizations.

    Reply
  20. Saudi dude
    January 5, 2007 at 3:14 am

    It happened in New Zealand, and probably in the UK, so it isn’t really something American. (Maybe Anglosaxon ? :p )

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  21. ella
    January 5, 2007 at 3:28 am

    BTW

    It seems that ayatollah Khamenei is gravely ill or dead.Iranian state run website called that rumours an “israeli scheme”
    Further to that “According to Webna,a blog service provider,Mihan, announced the authorities asked them to filter about 597 blogs at the same time”
    But I am quite certain that the next ayatollah will not be sworn on the bible.

    Reply
  22. mike
    January 5, 2007 at 5:55 am

    Copenhagen Lady, members of congress can’t touch the constitution because it would make their hands burn like a demon in holy water.

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  23. bitman
    January 5, 2007 at 6:35 am

    Copenhagen Lady – they actually don’t swear on the bible etc. – that’s simply a photo-up. That real swearing happens else-where; to my understanding by simply holding up a hand and signing a legal document.

    There are examples of previous congressmen swearing in on other books, including the constitution. In other words, it’s a political statement, not a requirement. Which makes me wonder why any novice congressman wants to start rocking the boat that early.

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  24. Craig
    January 5, 2007 at 6:53 am

    Copenhagen Lady, as others have pointed out, the oath of office is a promise to uphold and protect the Constitution itself. The purpose of the Bible (laying one’s hand on the Bible while swearing the Oath) is in the hoe that they will take the oath seriously. Which, of course, they don’t. An elected represenative will do as he pleases, oath be damned, if he thinks he can get away with it.

    So… the oath is just for show. It may have meant something 200 years ago when people believed in concepts such as honor and personal integrity, but that just ain’t the case anymore. It’s all about gray areas and moral equivalence and me first, to hell with you.

    Chip,

    It was frigates, and Jefferson created the Marine Corps.

    Nah. USMC is the oldest of the 4 branches of service in the US military. 1775. The Barbary Wars were 1801-1805.

    It’s a good story, though. Most people don’t know that Thomas Jefferson was the first to wage a “war on terror” or that America’s first foreign war was against Muslims. And the first American flag ever to be flown over captured enemy territory was, as you say, at the Fortress of Derna.

    The Barbary Wars were the first step on America’s long march to becoming a global power. By the way, the British and the French colonized North Africa for the express purpose of closing down the operations of the Barbary Pirates. Think about that, you “evil colonialism” conspiracy theorists. It could happen again. The US failed to end the piracy with it’s campaigns against Tripoli. Colonization succeeded where war failed.

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  25. T. Jefferson
    January 5, 2007 at 8:08 am

    Sometimes it’s best to cut a few throats, smash some heads and hope for the best. 🙂

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  26. The Usual Suspect
    January 5, 2007 at 11:05 am

    Saudi dude #20
    You’re right- it’s not only in America as SM says.
    In other countries Muslims have been taking oaths on the Koran for some time and athiests or agnostics take a secular oath.
    I’d say it’s a basic principle of secular liberal democracies- the freedom to practice one’s religion, provided that it does not conflict with the rule of law, includes the right to take an oath on whatever book one wishes- be that the Bible, Torah, Koran or aything else.
    The right to participate in the political process regardless of race, ethnicity or religion is another basic principle of secular democracy.

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  27. Tom
    January 5, 2007 at 11:49 am

    @The usual suspect

    Right, now only to eliminate that nasty little fact that the quran is more law than book. And what a law it is !

    “Fight Jews and Christians because they violated the origin of their faith and they do not believe in the religion of the truth (Islam), which abrogated all other religions. Fight them until they pay the poll-tax (Ziziya tax) with submission and humiliation.”

    How anyone can seriously believe in this hate-filled religion is beyond me. Muslim’s opinion of christians is clear.

    Christians’ opinion of muslims is also clear. If a muslim tells a priest : “Why do you help me, I do not believe in God ?”, a priest will tell him “There’s no problem. God believes in you.”

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  28. Kurt (Childe Roland)
    January 5, 2007 at 12:15 pm

    Calling the Barbary Wars a “war on terror” is laughable. But, anyway, you’re right that Thomas Jefferson had a low opinion of Islam. He also had a low (or even lower?) opinion of Christianity. Nothing funnier than seeing some Christer (Hang in there, J.C.! Practice makes perfect!) denigrating the violent, noisome Middle-Eastern fantasy of Islam while defending the violent, noisome Middle-Eastern fantasies* of Christianity and Judaism. It’s all bullshit, folks, and they’ve been used to justify horrific things.

    *I do wish these religions would be kept in the ME. The importation of Christianity completely destroyed European culture and replaced it with Middle-Eastern desert culture (like “modest” dress, among the milder changes) and we’re still recovering. I don’t like religion at all, but if you simply HAVE to have some spirituality, Westerners should go for modified-and-modernized pre-Christian pagan traditions. Keep the Abrahamic faiths in the desert where they belong.

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  29. Aliandra
    January 5, 2007 at 3:00 pm

    Kurt;

    It’s all bullshit, folks, and they’ve been used to justify horrific things.
    I don’t like religion at all, but if you simply HAVE to have some spirituality, Westerners should go for modified-and-modernized pre-Christian pagan traditions.ings.

    The biggest mass murderer of all time was the atheistic philosophy of communism. Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao – atheists all – racked up more corpses than the religious philosophies combined.

    As for those pre-Christian pagan traditions, that Aztec human sacrifice thing never much appealed to me.

    Sandmonkey;

    We’ve also got some Buddhists in Congress (don’t know what they swear on) and a few who define themselves as having “no religion”.

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  30. Dave
    January 5, 2007 at 3:04 pm

    Hey Sandmonkey,

    If you get off the American Dick you will probably realize that other countries already have extensive members of Parliment that are of of other faiths.

    It’s more of how backwards US way of thinking is to have Muslim or any other religion elected in 2006.

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  31. EuropeIsDyingFromIslam
    January 5, 2007 at 3:14 pm

    Hey Dave,

    I assume you are from Europe based on your comments…

    So i have just one thing to say to you…

    “GOODBYE DAVE! ISLAM IS EATING EUROPE! IT WAS FUN WHILE IT’S LASTED BUT EUROPE HAS PASSED THE POINT OF NO RETURN! NO DEPORTATIONS AND NO RESTRICTIONS ON IMMIGRATION = TOO MANY MUSLIMS IN EUROPE.”

    Can’t wait to see how Dave handles Sharia —

    Yours truly,

    one of the 295 Million americans that OPPOSE allowing more muslims in.

    Everyone better visit Europe while they can, because every painting and cathedral and museum will be gone by 2050! Tee hee!

    Reply
  32. eero
    January 5, 2007 at 3:46 pm

    Wow, quite a message of hatred and ignorance from EuropeIsDyingFromIslam.

    I’ve wondered when the US decides to demolish the Statue of Liberty as so many of it’s citizens so openly hate it’s message and creators. You know, a statue symbolizing hope and freedom for immigrants made by the french!

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  33. Kurt (Childe Roland)
    January 5, 2007 at 3:57 pm

    Aliandra:

    Yes, and we all know Stalin and Mao killed millions people because of atheism, right? Not consolidating power or anything like that. Yeah, they butchered people ’cause they were mad at Lil’ Baby Jesus.

    Good job missing my point about pre-Christian religions. What, exactly, do the Aztecs have to do with European paganism? I seem to recall talking about the culture of pre-Christian Europe, not MesoAmerica. There were varying degrees of unsavoriness in Europe, of course, which is why I find no religion at all to be the goal and sanitized paganism preferable to Christianity/Judaism/Islam. If you are a Westerner of European descent, I would much rather have you purge the bloodshed and sacrifice from, say, Druidism rather than purging the bloodshed from Judeo-Christo-Islamism.

    Europe had a long history of art, philosophy, politics, and unrestrained sexuality before the Christians and Muslims. It’s time to reclaim our heritage and send Yahweh back to the desert where he belongs. Egyptians might want to consider their own version of this, seeing how WONDERFUL Christianity & Islam has been for them and their once-great civilization.

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  34. Toady
    January 5, 2007 at 4:21 pm

    Kurt (Childe Roland);

    which is why I find no religion at all to be the goal

    Wasn’t so pleasant when Stalin forced that “goal” on his subjects, was it?

    Europe had a long history of art, philosophy, politics, and unrestrained
    sexuality before the Christians and Muslims.

    And it had a long history of art, philosophy, politics, and unrestrained sexuality after. What’s your point?

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  35. Andrea
    January 5, 2007 at 4:39 pm

    Kurt,
    So you’re trying to say that the atheist dictators of the twentieth century did not kill because of their philosophy, but just because of a naked lust for power. But that killings done by the church, when Europe was politically controlled by the Catholic church, were done because Christianity is a blood-cult? That is a leap of logic. Catholicism in medieval Europe controlled vast swathes of land, at least a tenth of all incomes, and the church was a much stronger force than the kings and dukes that ruled the various kingdoms (who would almost always submit to the church when required). So perhaps the implementation of Christianity was mixed with politics and the natural urge of human hearts for wealth and power took over?

    Those who follow Christ must love their enemies and pray for those that persecute them. Over and over again it says that others will know that we are Christians by our love. We are told God’s kingdom is in the hearts of men and nowhere are we told to build a kingdom for God. Those who try to use Christianity to build a political kingdom are foolish.

    As for paganism, my racial background is Frisian. An original and ancient pagan tribe from northern Europe who still speak their ancient language. One of the last tribes in all of Europe to convert to Christianity. And at one point in ancient history we had a great empire that rivalled the Franks – we fought Charlemange’s grandfather and won. However, there was not a great deal of art and culture in pagan Europe, when people were bound by superstition, tied to their lord by ties of blood fealty, and apt to be heavily penalized for any deviation from societal norms. In fact, the flowering of Europe culture, in the Renaissance, is directly attributable to a lessening of the control of the Catholic church over the minds of the people by an introduction of the ideas of the Reformation. That people should live by faith in God and throw off the shackles of church tradition. As that idea percolated across Europe, as freedom started to come, then the great blossoming of art and literature and science came.

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  36. tommy
    January 5, 2007 at 4:41 pm

    Yes, and we all know Stalin and Mao killed millions people because of atheism, right? Not consolidating power or anything like that. Yeah, they butchered people ’cause they were mad at Lil’ Baby Jesus.

    I am an agnostic myself (and, functionally, an atheist) and I wouldn’t blame atheism directly, but they certainly killed people because of ideologies that are contingent upon atheism.

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  37. antares
    January 5, 2007 at 4:42 pm

    Craig

    The First Barbary War was 1801-1805. The Second Barbary War was 1815-1816. The American fleet forced a treaty on the Dey of Algiers that he repudiated as soon as they were out of sight. The British and Dutch finished off his piracy the next year.

    Adams built up the navy. Jefferson decomissioned almost every ship when he took office but had to rebuild it to fight the Algerines. Some ships, like the _Essex_, were paid for by private subscription. The sloop _Enterprise_, whose name would later become hallowed in US naval tradition and Star Trek, was too popular to be decomissioned and was kept in active service.

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  38. bg
    January 5, 2007 at 4:50 pm

    # Dave Says:
    January 5th, 2007 at 3:04 pm

    Hey Sandmonkey,

    If you get off the American Dick you will probably realize that other countries already have extensive members of Parliment that are of of other faiths.

    It’s more of how backwards US way of thinking is to have Muslim or any other religion elected in 2006.

    poor you, you haven’t got a clue.. name one country that has
    the diversity of faiths serving in their government as the US??

    better yet, how many Muslim countries have
    Christians/etc serving in their Government??

    ==

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  39. antares
    January 5, 2007 at 4:52 pm

    Andrea

    Frisian!! Your native tongue is the mother of the English language!

    I know the Frisians did not stop with the defeat of the grandfather of Karl der Grosse. Your people continued to harass the eastern borders for generations.

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  40. America Is About A Year Away From Turning On Islam For Good
    January 5, 2007 at 5:29 pm

    http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/ – i love this site!

    7114 (publicized) attacks in the name of islam since september 9-11 !
    430 Dead bodies in the name of Islam worldwide LAST WEEK ALONE!
    3,276 dead in the name of Islam WITHIN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA in the last generation

    All hail the religion of peace!

    EVERY GALLUP POLL IN THE COUNTRY SHOWS A GROWING GROWING GROWING DISTRUST AND NEGATIVITY TOWARD ISLAM BY AMERICANS

    NOT FEAR — DON’T KID YOURSELF — BUT SCORN. WE ARE NOT AFRAID. AND IN ABOUT A YEAR, AMERICA WILL BE FED UP, AND WILL NEVER ELECT A KEITH ELLISON TYPE AGAIN.

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  41. Chip
    January 5, 2007 at 5:33 pm

    Well, I guess it depends on how you define Marine Corps. Since the U.S. didn’t declare independence from Great Britain until 1775, the Continental Marines weren’t the Marine Corps. But King George had declared us in rebellion, whatever we said. The Constitution wasn’t ratified until 1787 and the need for Marines came about through the Barbary Wars.

    Anyway… This digression brought to you by the few, the proud, the anal-retentive history buffs.

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  42. Chip
    January 5, 2007 at 5:34 pm

    Er, make 1775 into 1776. Or, like I should have said, we hadn’t declared independence in 1775. …more coffee…

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  43. Andrea
    January 5, 2007 at 5:37 pm

    Antares – indeed Frisian is the closest language to English – the Frisians can understand Old English, which English speakers certainly cannot! Unfortunately I do not speak much Frisian – my parents came to Canada as children. Their Frisian is fun as it hasn’t changed much since the 1950s, when Friesland was a backwater living much the same as they had for centuries. Thus their Frisian expressions and sayings are really interesting, and some of them reflect the old pagan superstitions of the barbaric tribes…

    You are very rare in knowing anything about the Frisians – most people have never heard of us 🙂

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  44. Dave
    January 5, 2007 at 5:48 pm

    Check yor neighbours up north, Canada

    Sikh, Budhists, Hindus and Muslims as well as various Christian denominations.

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  45. Dave
    January 5, 2007 at 5:50 pm

    Check yor neighbours up north, Canada

    Sikh, Budhists, Hindus and Muslims as well as various Christian denominations serve in the parliament.

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  46. Andrea
    January 5, 2007 at 5:55 pm

    To “America is about to turn on Islam for good”-

    You seem to take a malicious delight in the fact that Americans are turning against the Muslim community, which is a pretty vast group of people spread over a vast chunk of the planet. Not to mention the millions of Muslims in your own country.

    Are you itching for a religious war or something?

    You cannot fight ideas with bloodshed or violence. You can offer alternative, more attractive ideas. There is a reason that extremist, wahabist Islam is finding such a large audience. Most of the Muslim world has a disproportionate number of young people, many of whom have not been educated properly, have no chance to buy a home and settle down, get a job, etc. They see the wealth and power of the elites of their society, they see the wealth and power of the west — and yet know that they have no hope of joining in. The mosques offer them an alternative view of the world. One in which they can play a role, in which they have a destiny and a purpose. Given these conditions, the rise of violence does not surprise me.

    We see it on our own streets – young men without hope tend to create their own realities of drugs and violence.

    I have been to Algeria. In Algeria there are thousands of young men, called “Hittistes”. They have nothing to do all day except lean against buildings and watch the world go by. They live with their parents, many in overcrowded houses. They have nowhere to go all day, nothing to do. Yet their country is full of oil and natural gas, the revenues of which go straight to the corrupt generals who have ruled the country since kicking out the French in the 1960s. The West buys the natural resources, and we bank the money for the generals in offshore accounts. Why aren’t we putting more pressure on these countries to start offering basic human rights to their own people?? Why do we keep waiting until these failed governments implode and the countries erupt into violence? My conspiracy theory is that the people at the top just do not care as long as they keep getting rich.

    Muslims are not a seperate species from you. We are all in this together.

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  47. bg
    January 5, 2007 at 6:01 pm

    dave..

    does Canada have any Muslims serving??

    and what about this question..

    better yet, how many Muslim countries have
    Christians/etc serving in their Government??

    ==

    Reply
  48. annamouse
    January 5, 2007 at 6:23 pm

    It is a big deal in America and it isn’t because we are backwards it is because we have so few muslins in the USA. I believe they are only at about 2-3% of the popultion.

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  49. bg
    January 5, 2007 at 6:40 pm

    okay, i found something..

    Yasmin Ratansi – Canada’s First Muslim Woman MP
    http://www.muslimcanadiancongress.org/20040723.html
    http://tinyurl.com/y5ve8p
    July 23, 2004

    [Lost in these accomplishments was another first for Canada. It was the election of Canada’s first Muslim woman member of Parliament – Yasmin Ratansi from the Toronto riding of Don Valley East. Her achievement went completely unnoticed.

    The question is this: How could the national media miss such a historic milestone for Canada’s 600,000-strong Muslim community?]

    ==

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  50. Dave
    January 5, 2007 at 6:43 pm

    To Bg:

    There are 2 muslim MPs in the Canadian Parliament. Wajid Kahn and Rahim Jaffer. Both belong to the Conservative Party Of Canada. Conservative Party of Canada is equivalent to the Republicans in the States.

    Jaffer has been serving since 2000 and was elected from the Province of Alberta. Now Alberta is as Right wing as you can get.

    Khan was with the Liberal Party of Canada but defected over to the Conservative Party today. Huge news in Canada today.

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070105.wsallot0105/BNStory/National/home

    To your second question. Who knows and who cares? I am concerned with what is going on in my country.

    Reply
  51. America Is About A Year Away From Turning On Islam For Good
    January 5, 2007 at 6:50 pm

    Andrea,

    I take it you are a liberal.

    So it OUR fault. The WEST’S fault. WE need to step in and save the POOR MUSLIMS WHO DON’T KNOW ANY BETTER.

    HOw about THEIR governments doing something?? How about THIER religious leaders doing something? Where are the MUSLIM PHILANTHROPISTS? Why is it America’s job to play Santa Claus and save the world while much of America at home is rotting away? If Islam is so great then why don’t its leaders see the same problem you do and step in and CONDEMN the violence, instead of inciting it.

    There are more suicide bombings on friday afternoon than any other time.
    Guess what happens on friday just before the afternoon? services @ the Mosque.

    Andrea,
    Nice try but there are about 20 levels of people that SHOULD step in and stop this junk before “america” or “the evile west” or “white colonialism” takes the blame. Recognizing israel might be a start. Or stopping the legally accepted raping of women (must have !!!4!!!! witnesses to prove innocence). Or stop hanging gays. OR don’t behead Christians for saying “let me tell you about the peace that Jesus has brought in my life”

    That’s a start.

    Andrea, you have a nice idea… there IS a social problem there. But you are just halfway, as most liberals today are. They see it as a “THEY MUST HATE US FOR REASON X, Y, OR Z” “SURELY IF WE DO ACTION A, B, OR C THEN WE CAN HEAL THE WORLD”

    Nope. They hate because islam tells them to hate, the koran says to lie to infidels now and kill later, the koran has hundreds of commands of future hell and to cut of fheads (even fingertips), the koran says non-muslims are perverse and should not be allowed to live by muslims.

    Reply
  52. Dave
    January 5, 2007 at 6:51 pm

    To Bg:

    Stand corrected, 3 muslim MPs.

    Canadians aren’t preoccupied with people’s ethnicities or religions.

    Most of the time any way.

    Reply
  53. America Is About A Year Away From Turning On Islam For Good
    January 5, 2007 at 6:52 pm

    Andrea, you are so close! You are 50% there… this year’s goal should be to realize “IT’S NOT OUR FAULT. IT’S THIER FAULT.”

    This is the hardest point to grasp, but once you do, everything becomes easier.

    Reply
  54. Andrea
    January 5, 2007 at 6:56 pm

    Dave … wow that is HUGE news considering the delicate balance of power we have in Canada at the moment. Good news for me, as I want the Conservatives to keep at it for a while, they are doing a good job.

    I believe there are four Muslim MPs in Canada – there is also Omar Alghabra, who is Muslim and was born in Saudi Arabia, and there is Yasmin Ratansi…

    Our parliament is actually pretty diverse.

    Reply
  55. Andrea
    January 5, 2007 at 7:00 pm

    Turning…

    Does it have to be an either/or equation? Humanity and human history is too complex for that. Its not all black and white, goodies and baddies like is portrayed by Hollywood. I know you want simple answers but these are complex issues. And I don’t think ANY of us are doing a bang-up job on this planet of ours. We in the “west” have enough guilt ourselves. I believe Jesus said to remove the log from our own eye before we remove the splinter from our brothers’. Our first responsibility is always to change what we can change – ourselves. It is much too easy to point fingers at others, and it absolves us of our own culpability.

    I happen to know and love too many Muslims to dismiss them all out of hand like you do.

    Reply
  56. Andrea
    January 5, 2007 at 7:08 pm

    And… America is turning against Islam…
    A question. Why do Americans always have to label people so quickly? I am extremely open to new ideas and cultures and beliefs and try to learn from everyone that I encounter. I am a pragmatist and a Libertarian in political belief. My heritage is Dutch, and we tend to believe that “while I might not agree with you, I will fight for your right to believe it.” I tend to vote Conservative. And I’m a Christian who believes in the Bible. I think Christians have to be what Americans consider “liberal” because we are charged to love our fellow man as much as we love ourselves….

    Reply
  57. bg
    January 5, 2007 at 7:39 pm

    # Andrea Says:
    January 5th, 2007 at 7:08 pm

    And… America is turning against Islam…

    A question. Why do Americans always have to label people so quickly?

    we don’t.. the anti-American Fiberal MSM does it for/to US.. 🙁

    -==

    Reply
  58. Craig
    January 5, 2007 at 8:43 pm

    Dave,

    If you get off the American Dick you will probably realize that other countries already have extensive members of Parliment that are of of other faiths.

    Parliament? I wonder who you’re talking about there, you British bastard 😛

    When will Britain get off the American dick, anyway? You’ve been standing in our shadow and then sniping at us from there for far too long. Hop in bed with somebody else that you like better, already.
    It’s more of how backwards US way of thinking is to have Muslim or any other religion elected in 2006.

    Yeah. How’s that whole multi-culturalism thing working out for you, Dave?

    Eero,

    I’ve wondered when the US decides to demolish the Statue of Liberty as so many of it’s citizens so openly hate it’s message and creators. You know, a statue symbolizing hope and freedom for immigrants made by the french!

    So you think it’s “freedom” if we allow people who don’t believe in freedom and who want to take away our rights and liberties, into America? No thanks, we like what we’ve got and we intend to keep it.

    By the way, that statue was not made to symbolize Liberty. We (Americans) set it up for that purpose. Check your facts.

    Reply
  59. antares
    January 5, 2007 at 8:45 pm

    Andrea

    Be careful of labels yourself. I am American. The labels I am quick to give people are good ones: Canadians are polite; Vietnamese are brave; English are honorable. I speak 5 languages and am learning a sixth. Don’t like Thai food, but I love Japanese cuisine. And Greek. And Lebanese. I know I am not the average American. There are no average Americans, no average Canadians, no average Egyptians, no average Israelis. There are individuals.

    Yes, I know a little about Friesland. Comes from having German ancestors and German relatives. Friesland borders the Helgoland Bight. I know 4 languages that use the ‘th’ diphthong; Frisian is one of the 4.

    I, too, believe the solution to the problem is economics, not violence. But be careful what you say. Violence can resolve a problem if pursued with sufficient will. The Romans solved their problems with the Carthiginians by exterminating them.

    Reply
  60. Craig
    January 5, 2007 at 8:45 pm

    Kurt,

    Yes, and we all know Stalin and Mao killed millions people because of atheism, right? Not consolidating power or anything like that. Yeah, they butchered people ’cause they were mad at Lil’ Baby Jesus.

    No. They butchered people because they were spiritually dead human beings.

    Reply
  61. Craig
    January 5, 2007 at 8:53 pm

    Kurt (again)

    Europe had a long history of art, philosophy, politics, and unrestrained sexuality before the Christians and Muslims. It’s time to reclaim our heritage and send Yahweh back to the desert where he belongs.

    Hell yeah! SIgn me up for a norse Europe. Seriously. A viking invasion of the middle-east will end end Islam forever.

    But that’s not the point you were trying to make, is it? You’d have the Norse God’s worshipped, non violently. Should be fun, since the only way to get to Valhalla in Norse theology is to die in battle. Good luck with that 🙂

    Something tells me the European God’s were not what you have revised them into, Buddy.

    Reply
  62. Dave
    January 5, 2007 at 9:47 pm

    I wasn’t going to get into war of words with you Craig, but your ignorance is beyond belief. I will talk in your language. Dude, I am mentioning Canadian MP’s here. Where did you get Britain from? And duh, I am from Canada if you aren’t clued in yet.

    I can’t speak for the Brits or rest of Canada. But for myself, I am digging the multi-culturalism thing.

    Feel free to hit me with more of your ignorant rhetoric or the standard Canadian jokes, seriously I have never heard any of them before.

    I am not anti-American, I am just tired of the retarded right wing BS, whether it comes out of an American, Canadian, Brit or whoever.

    T

    Reply
  63. Craig
    January 5, 2007 at 11:48 pm

    I am not anti-American, I am just tired of the retarded right wing BS, whether it comes out of an American, Canadian, Brit or whoever.

    Fuck you, Dave. Right Wing my ass. You’re complaining about the way America has been since the day we declared independence, and now you’re trying to say you just have a problem with the “right wing” – well, you’re wrong about that. You have a problem with me, and I’m not “right wing” – I’m a Libertarian. So kiss my ass. Sorry if I offended your delicate Canuck sensibilities by confronting some of your many bullshit claims. Deal with it.

    PS-Glad to see you are so proud of the British system of government you have adopted.

    Reply
  64. antares
    January 6, 2007 at 12:51 am

    Dave

    I apologize for the vulgar language of my countryman.

    I’ve dated Canadians and worked with Canadians. We had our disagreements, but we remained civil. I often remarked to them that it was surprising that a land with such a singularly dull history could produce so many heroes — Billy Bishop, Raymond Collishaw, Mackenzie. Their response was that Canada’s history is intimate and can only be apprecitated on the personal level.

    BTW the CDF has the best color– colour to you — of flight suit in the world: Canadian Air Superiority Blue. Beautiful. Absolutely beautiful.

    FYI thank you and all Canadians for the CDF’s contributions in Afghanistan. You still raise heroes in the “north land, proud and free”.

    Reply
  65. Dave
    January 6, 2007 at 3:15 am

    Craig:

    Go get a hug. You will feel better.

    Reply
  66. Andrea
    January 6, 2007 at 4:50 am

    Antares –

    My labelling comment meant to say that why is it so necessary these days to label people “left” or “right”…some of us are searching for answers and trying to learn and don’t want to be dragged into the current trend of polarization… Also, you’re quite right, Canada has the single most boring history I’ve ever come across, and history is my thing 🙂 Canadians can also be boringly earnest at times….

    Craig – you do realize that you are playing into an unfortunate stereotype. I am with Dave – completely sick of the right-wing neo-con reactive stance that you display. The world is changing. If you think that Islam is an issue, wait until China starts flexing its muscle. I think that we are going to have to learn to accept pluralism and listen to other peoples’ viewpoints… either willingly or unwillingly. And yes, I am extremely proud of our British parliamentary tradition because it works fairly well, for the most part.

    Reply
  67. Chip
    January 6, 2007 at 5:22 am

    wait until China starts flexing its muscle

    Yawn… Their blue-water navy is decades away from even beginning to threaten the U.S. It’s far more dangerous when the enemy can move among you and subvert from within. In the case of the global jihad, I could switch sides in this war by going to the local mosque. And there are eight.

    Reply
  68. Craig
    January 6, 2007 at 6:24 am

    I apologize for the vulgar language of my countryman.

    Antares, don’t apologize for me. The dude stereotyped me and he insulted me. He also insulted my country. I said what I meant and if I wanted your input on MY statements to Dave, I would ahve asked for it. Who do you think you are?

    Dave,

    Go get a hug. You will feel better.

    Again, fuck you. You’re all over this blog insulting Americans. You don’t like being insulted? Try not making offensive comments.

    Andrea,

    You do realize that you are playing into an unfortunate stereotype. I am with Dave – completely sick of the right-wing neo-con reactive stance that you display

    You have also just stereotyped me, and incorrectly. I am not a neocon, and I am not “right wing” – I am a LIBERTARIAN.

    How would you know what I display? You didn’t even read anything I wrote.

    Are you co-signing Dave’s insulting commentary about Americans?

    This is Dave’s first comment in this thread, before I was even here:

    If you get off the American Dick you will probably realize that other countries already have extensive members of Parliment that are of of other faiths.

    It’s more of how backwards US way of thinking is to have Muslim or any other religion elected in 2006.

    If you’re in agreement with that, I have a “fuck you” for you too, Andrea. That isn’ta complaint about foreign policy, or the Bush Administration, right wing politicians or neocons. That is an insult directed at all Americans.

    Reply
  69. Craig
    January 6, 2007 at 6:33 am

    By the way, Andrea,

    Craig – you do realize that you are playing into an unfortunate stereotype. I am with Dave – completely sick of the right-wing neo-con reactive stance that you display. The world is changing. If you think that Islam is an issue, wait until China starts flexing its muscle. I think that we are going to have to learn to accept pluralism and listen to other peoples’ viewpoints… either willingly or unwillingly. And yes, I am extremely proud of our British parliamentary tradition because it works fairly well, for the most part.

    Yeah, that’s all me! You’ve obviously been reading everything I’ve said on this blog the last 2 years!

    Did you just start reading blogs? And now you feel a sudden urge to tell everyone how to save the world? And along the way, make a lot of bullshit assumptions about people you don’t even know?

    Thanks for your valuable input, dear one.

    Reply
  70. Craig
    January 6, 2007 at 6:34 am

    Sandmonkey where are all these new people coming from? I gotta say, I don’t like em, man. Where did you have an interview published lately?

    Reply
  71. Kurt (Childe Roland)
    January 6, 2007 at 8:27 am

    “But that’s not the point you were trying to make, is it? You’d have the Norse God’s worshipped, non violently. Should be fun, since the only way to get to Valhalla in Norse theology is to die in battle. Good luck with that

    Something tells me the European God’s were not what you have revised them into, Buddy.”

    No, I know exactly what they are. But if the West is going to sanitize imaginary deities (and the reason the “Christian” West has come so far the past few hundred years is through a combo of secularization and ignoring vast swaths of Christian religion) I would prefer them to be native deities rather than Middle-Eastern ones.

    Oh, and I should point out that I have no real aversion to war, unlike most Leftists. I fully support killing al-Qaeda agents anytime, anywhere and I think putting the blade to Kim Jong-Il and his cronies would be most excellent.

    Besides, dying in battle is preferable to dying of a stroke while pissing yourself at age 92, wouldn’t you say?

    Reply
  72. anonymous
    January 6, 2007 at 8:44 am

    I’m still in shock about the whole Keith Ellison thing! We are in war with Islam…correction, Islam is in war the West, Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, all non-muslims, because they are so intolerant of other people’s opinions or beliefs…and here we pick a convert from catholic to Islam in the congress….i think it is the world’s biggest insult! How did he get his votes? i think it’s a conspiracy! Everyone i have encountered or talked to is against Keith Ellison…Google Keith Ellison, he is linked not only to Cair but he is being supported and funded by Saudi Arabia and also some involvement with Al Qaieda…I don’t know what’s happening to this country i’m afraid, very afraid! People, Please we need to be more involved with american politics and start protesting or something…We cannot allow this to happen it is a great danger for the american future!…..Trust Me, I know!

    Reply
  73. The Usual Suspect
    January 6, 2007 at 9:45 am

    Tommy at #28
    Yes, correct, the Quaran is a text that is meant to apply to every facet of life including law and the rules of engagement in war.
    The Bible is also a text that is meant to apply to every facet of life.
    Holy texts are, in essence, meant to be guides for our lives. The crux is in how they are applied.
    I agree wholeheartedly with you that the Quaran has been USED to justify some very horrible things.
    But, I hold hope that there are Muslims in this world who take the teachings of the Quaran and interpret them in ways that do not promote hatred and violence.
    An example- the Quran sets out the rules of engagement in war prohibiting the killing of innocents and restricting battle between combatants. Bin Laden comes along with an intense hatred of the West and a political agenda. Voila! He reinterprets the Quaran and declares that all US citizens are eligible targets because they fund a governmen that supports Israel and all Israeli citizens are viable targets because they will all serve in the army. He issues a fatwa and there you have it. But there are many who do not agree with HIS interpretation of the text- many who refuse to accept his fatwa.
    The only way that things will change is for Islam to change from the inside. The only way for that to happen is for more Muslims to promote and insist on interpretations that do not serve political agendas through the use of violence and terror. This is my hope for my religion- that we Muslims will undergo an enlightenment as to the true nature of spirituality and religion and that we will stand up against the filfth who corrupt and degrade Islam with their interpretations and false fatwahs.
    I can see that it is difficult for you and many others to accept that this is at all possible, and sometimes I find myself despairing at the ugliness of something that is supposed to be beautiful. But I won’t give up.

    Reply
  74. The Usual Suspect
    January 6, 2007 at 9:47 am

    anonymous
    What exactly are you afraid of?

    Reply
  75. Not Your Mama
    January 6, 2007 at 2:36 pm

    “And what does an atheist do?”

    Copenhagen Lady, that’s the thing…an Atheist would not be elected here. Everyone has to at least pretend to believe.

    Reply
  76. Jason
    January 6, 2007 at 2:42 pm

    Brief history of Canada.

    “How’s the weather?”

    Reply
  77. Copenhagen Lady
    January 6, 2007 at 3:36 pm

    Not Your Mama – I guess your quite right about that.

    Silly me; I keep forgetting that religious belief isn´t considered a private matter in the same way as in my country.

    To all of you who answered my questions: Thanks a lot for your help.

    Reply
  78. Andrea
    January 6, 2007 at 5:20 pm

    Craig – its very difficult to get an accurate read of peoples’ true characters from words on a page. But you really should relax a little. I lived in England for a long time, and a national sport there is “taking the piss”… picking at perceived weaknesses of others, and seeing how they react. I think that’s what Dave (and to some extent I) have been doing to you. Its just your reaction is so predictable!

    Sorry if I’ve totally misread you. And I’m shocked you are unhappy with Sandmonkey for attracting readers like me to his website. Admittedly, I’m a bit of an acquired taste, but you’ll probably like me eventually. Its inevitable 🙂 You should try liking me sooner rather than later and save all the hassle.

    Reply
  79. Guest
    January 6, 2007 at 5:28 pm

    Be forewanred american poeple that a Muslim is only loyal to Islam,not to any country ,once they have the power they ask for their own state”Russia,India,Philipinos,..etc” and you are giving them the power..

    Reply
  80. bg
    January 6, 2007 at 5:36 pm

    #82: Andrea Says:
    January 6th, 2007 at 5:20 pm

    [“taking the piss”… picking at perceived weaknesses of others, and seeing how they react. I think that’s what Dave (and to some extent I) have been doing to you. Its just your reaction is so predictable!]

    and the diss you & Dave pi$$ isn’t predictable?? grow up..

    ==

    Reply
  81. Andrea
    January 6, 2007 at 5:46 pm

    BG – I’ve been reading this blog for a long time, but never had time to comment until this week, cause I was off sick from work. What fun.

    Your comment doesn’t seem to make a whole lot of sense.

    But still. How cool to have forums to express our opinions. In the real world very few people care about my opinions (and who could blame them). But here people actually get all worked up. Kind of neat.

    Reply
  82. bg
    January 6, 2007 at 6:21 pm

    # 85: Andrea Says:
    January 6th, 2007 at 5:46 pm

    think i called it right.. it’s all about you & your opinions of others
    opinions.. why not try giving opinions on the issues once in awhile..

    ==

    Reply
  83. antares
    January 6, 2007 at 7:14 pm

    Well, this thread started bcz Sandmonkey posted a celebratory comment about Ellison swearing in as a US Congressman using the Quran. Very political. It was just a photo-op. The oath is important. The Bible, Quran, Analects, To Kill a Mockingbird is just a prop. Most Congressmen took the oath without any prop. “Raise your right hand and swear . . .”

    The point was that Sandmonkey applauded the US for its freedom to allow Ellison to use the Quran as a prop. The unstated point is that Sandy is an Egyptian and a Muslim who appreciates that freedom. That is in contrapoint to the crazies who used airliners as guided missiles.

    Point: Not all Muslims are our enemies.
    —–
    Andrea

    I appreciate the British parliamentary system, too. Some of the best television comes when CSPAN televises debates in the British House of Commons. No irony, no slight intended. It is Britain at its least polite and most raucous. Despite what Bismarck said, it’s fun watching laws being made in the UK.

    BTW I know one Canadian joke:
    “How do you get 100 Canadians out of your swimming pool?”
    “You say, ‘Canadians, please get out of the pool.'”

    Reply
  84. bg
    January 6, 2007 at 8:07 pm

    #87: # antares Says:
    January 6th, 2007 at 7:14 pm

    thank you, i know & understand Sandmonkey’s posiition(s) very well.. 🙂

    however the..

    [but imho, it doesn’t explain nor excuse your rude
    & obnoxious comment directed at Sandmonkey..]

    part of my comment to Dave was ignored.. yet others jumped
    in to defend it via chastizing others for responding in kind, go fig..

    bottom line imho.. kifaya!!

    ==

    Reply
  85. bg
    January 6, 2007 at 9:06 pm

    clarifying..

    [part of my comment to Dave was ignored.. yet others jumped
    in to defend it via chastizing others for responding in kind, go fig..]

    it = Dave’s comment..

    ==

    Reply
  86. BrooklynJon
    January 6, 2007 at 11:00 pm

    eero #35,
    “I’ve wondered when the US decides to demolish the Statue of Liberty as so many of it’s citizens so openly hate it’s message and creators. You know, a statue symbolizing hope and freedom for immigrants made by the french! ”

    It’s actually nothing of the sort. The “Statue of Liberty” is actually entitled “Liberty Enlightening the World”. Although it has come to have significance for immigration, that has more to do with its location adjacent to Ellis Island (the principal point of disembarkation for arriving immigrants to the USA for decades), and – due to its height – its being the first sign immigrants arriving by ship could see that they arrived in the USA.

    In fact, the statue commemorated the first engagement of an army that was raised by the citizenry to take on a monarch, which occurred on August 27, 1776 in the Battle of Brooklyn, which occurred around a mile from where I type. In fact, it was placed in the harbor, facing Battle Hill, which is currently in Green-Wood Cemetary, for all of you keeping score at home. Atop Battle Hill is a statue of medusa which faces lady liberty. Why Medusa? I don’t know, but I imagine there is some symbolism there.

    In any event, the French, emboldened by the American example, did the same thing in the French Revolution, hence the gratitude to the Yanks, and the statue in our harbor.

    And yes, we know it was a gift from the people of France. That was when they were cool, and knew how to express gratitude.

    BJ out.

    Reply
  87. anonymous
    January 7, 2007 at 3:17 am

    The usual suspect # 78
    The fact that islam is not only a religion but a state as well! There’s no seperation between the 2 according to islam. Here in America, Politics is a public affair and religion is a private affair there is a separation which i happen to like! Democracy doesn’t discriminate against any race, color, or religion..”.Everyone is Equal”. The islamic law (shariah) is dangerous and a barabaric ideology that will never mix with the west. The shariah law is against everything that the west stands and believes in, and that cannot be brought here period!…We are too modern and advanced for that way of life….in my opinion islam should only be used and practiced in the middle east…If Keith Ellison wants to run for this country fine! but he should respect the constitution which is mostly based on Judeo-Christian values, he better not think about bringing islamic teachings to this country publicly! That’s an insult to 9 out of 10 Americans which 234 million (85%) christians live and practice christianity in this country; The 10 commandments are the first recorded laws:(for the record). Most christians from the muslim dominated countries flee to America to practice their religion freely and not be persecuted or beheaded and killed, simply because they’re christians!!…The christians in the middle-east know exactly what islam is all about and believe me the West already knows that now! Until you change your barabaric dark ideology teachings of Islam, it’s not going to happen here in the West. Islam doesn’t contribute nothing to the modern world but fear, paranoia, enslaving, and oppression (mostly to women). And if you want to challenge me I’M READY!

    Reply
  88. nomad
    January 7, 2007 at 9:58 am

    #90, hi Bjon,

    In any event, the French, emboldened by the American example, did the same thing in the French Revolution, hence the gratitude to the Yanks, and the statue in our harbor.

    And yes, we know it was a gift from the people of France. That was when they were cool, and knew how to express gratitude.

    in fact Bartholdi thought that the statue of Liberty would suit his ambition in NY harbor when this one just got refused by egyptian officials : at the origin it was ment to honor the Suez canal achievments by Champollion ; Champollion did not want a shadow in his horizons ;

    so this statue is just a proudness affair 😆

    cf SM topic a few months ago on that subject (may-be june)

    Reply
  89. Saudi dude
    January 7, 2007 at 5:44 pm

    @27 The Usual Suspect:

    Nice said. I agree with you, and I hope all countries move toward such systems without external force, including my own Saudi Arabia, which sadly is still behind on that.

    @ 28 Tom:

    This is Christianity’s true vision:

    “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.” Matthew 10:34

    Reply
  90. charlie 316
    January 7, 2007 at 10:37 pm

    craig #73 “And along the way, make a lot of bullshit assumptions about people you don’t even know?”

    Isn’t this a bit like the pot calling the kettle black? You clearly didn’t know Dave, but you seem to assume he was British because he used the word Parliament. Lots of nations call the place where their elected represenataives meet a parliament, although I’m kinda proud that you thought of us first.

    This blog is starting to become a place where Americans and Canadians work out their animosities and its quite fun in a South Park sort of way. However, let’s not forget who the real enemy is.

    Reply
  91. nomad
    January 7, 2007 at 10:42 pm

    #94,

    for once I am glad they forgot about frenchs 😆

    Reply
  92. Jason
    January 8, 2007 at 4:54 pm

    “who the real enemy is. ”

    Mexicans? 😛

    Reply
  93. The Usual Suspect
    January 9, 2007 at 1:18 am

    anonymous
    Again- what exactly are you afraid of? Are there thousands of Muslims converging on your shores demanding Sharia law be passed and that American women wear niqab or is this only a small minority of mad mullahs with twisted ideologies?
    Is Ellison saying that he wants to instill Sharia? Does he have the capacity to do it as one (black) man in congress?
    Do you actually really really know what Sharia is before you go getting your titties in a knot over the threat to your freedoms? Do you actually know the numbers of people needed to change the US from secularism to a Sharia state? Do you actually know how many Muslims there are in the US who are Secularists, Modernists or Moderates? Do you even know what these terms mean?
    You say that in the US religion is a private affair and politics a public affair- think again. Your President has no hesitation in showing he is a conservative Christian- he has referred to God in many of his speeches. This is also true for other pollies.
    I’m researching the fear of terrorism and Muslims and am just now writing up an article on my research. Women are more fearful than men. The poor are more fearful than the rich. The uneducated are more fearful than those with highschool and university educations. No surprise. These patterns follow patterns for the fear of crime. Perhaps if you learnt a little more about what you are talking about and what you claim to fear you might find that your fear is really quite irrational and based on something much more sinister- like hatred.

    Reply
  94. Toady
    January 9, 2007 at 3:54 pm

    You say that in the US religion is a private affair and politics a public affair- think again. Your President has no hesitation in showing he is a conservative Christian- he has referred to God in many of his speeches. This is also true for other pollies.

    By ‘private affair” we mean that the government doesn’t force a particular religion on the citizens. It doesn’t mean people are prohibited from saying they are followers of this or that religion, or that they can’t refer to their religious beliefs in public.

    Copenhagen Lady;

    Silly me; I keep forgetting that religious belief isn´t considered a private matter in the same way as in my country

    It IS a private matter, in accordance with the above response. There are, in fact, congressmen who admit to following “no religion”. This may mean they are atheists or it may not. They were elected regardless.

    Atheism is very uncommon in the US. Most people believe in some kind of higher reality. The nihilistic philosophies never had much appeal.

    Reply
  95. deprived
    January 9, 2007 at 6:53 pm

    #93 saudi dude
    …”This is Christianity’s true vision:

    “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.” Matthew 10:34 “….

    You are kidding me, right?
    Now, show us islam’s true vision. Don’t forget the parts about apes and pigs, killing the infidel, slavery, etc…. Then you must tell us all about Mo being the perfect human being who preached such things.

    Reply
  96. anonymous
    January 11, 2007 at 5:52 am

    The Usual Suspect #97
    First of All sir, you are making assumptions!
    You claim you are writing an article on your research that women are more fearful than men, In what sense and statiscly; Women are more fearful?
    Are you talking about women in Islam or women in the west?
    It would be typical of you to say that from your islamic view!
    Of course women in your part of the world would be more fearful…They have no rights, they are treated like second class citizens by majority!
    Yes, i do not agree with Islamic teachings:
    Quran states; “o ye who believe! fight the unbelievers,” (sura9:123)
    Quran states: “But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them and lie in wait (ambush) for them in every strategem (of war)” (sura 9:5)
    Quran states: “Fight those who believe not in God [Allah] and his apostle ‘mohammad’, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth (even if they are) of the people of the book [i.e. Jews and christian], until they pay Jizya [humiliating tax] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued [enslaved]” (sura 9:29)
    Quran states; “Therefore when ye meet them unbelievers [in fight] simte at their necks; at length, when ye have thouroghly subdued them, bind and bond firmly [on them] (sura 47:4)

    Christian bible says;” pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you.”

    Now you see the difference between Islam and the West!
    It’s not only the mad mullahs with twisted ideology! It’s Islam and it’s teaching:
    This barbaric ideology does not mix with secularism or modernism:
    Nowhere in the old testament (Torah) or the new testament (Holy bible) preaches or teaches that type of Hate!!!!
    If the so called Moderate or Secular Muslims don’t condone this than why aren’t they speaking up!!!!!!
    Like i said, i don’t dislike Keith Ellison personally, If he wants run for congress in this country fine!…..He should then respect the founders of the Constition which is (Judeo-Christian) principles….
    End of Story!!!!!

    Reply
  97. The Usual Suspect
    January 11, 2007 at 10:16 am

    First of all- I’m not a sir.
    Secondly- I’m not in the ME- I’m in Australia- raised in Australia- here for 37 years- makes me an Aussie!
    Thirdly- I don’t claim I am writing- I am writing- based on a National survey by the Australian government and conducted by two Universities with 4 different researchers- you can read about it on the Safeguarding Australia website.
    Fourthly- look up fear of crime surveys (Gordon and Riger for example) and you will realise that women are more afraid- as is consistly shown in survey results
    If you are truly Christian and truly follow the teachings of Jesus and the Bible (by the way I attended an Anglican school and read Bible in Chapel everymorning) then you would not be so vitriolic- you would indeed “pray for them which persecute you”… so what are you doing here? Go pray and stop abusing and bashing and denigrating and degrading and attacking others- go pray that us Muslims see the light!
    I know many Christians with a beautiful soul who are truly spiritual and practice their faith in the true spirit of its meaning- You, Sir, are not doing that today. Today you are practising something else. Not the true tenets of your faith.

    Reply

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