A sandmonkey prediction

The same people who were so excited about Keith Ellison voted into congress are not going to be as excited when they know of his stances on the Middle East!

0 comment on A sandmonkey prediction

  1. Andrew Brehm
    January 5, 2007 at 12:31 pm

    I like his views. I think I could support him.

    I think some of his fans simply thought that “Muslim” meant “supports terrorists and hates the US”.

    Reply
  2. Kurt (Childe Roland)
    January 5, 2007 at 12:32 pm

    I always figures the first Muslim elected to Congress would be a conservative Republican rather than a liberal Democrat.

    It’s a good thing the Christian & Islamic fundies are preoccupied with hating each other, or else they might realize they could join forces and *really* clamp down on us godless fornicators and disrespecting blasphemers of Da Lawd.

    Reply
  3. Richard B.
    January 5, 2007 at 12:39 pm

    Any Black man born and raised in America that converts to Islam, because his ancestors were owned by Christians, is a fool. Most likely his ancestors were sold to Arabs by Blacks from another tribe. The Arab/Muslim slave traders then sold the Black captive to other slave traders who sold the slaves to “Christian”, American, men. The Black captives that were kept as slaves by Arab Muslims had their privates chopped off. If they didn’t die from that mutilation, they lived as slaves until they died. Only the Blacks that were sold to “Christians” have decendants. Decendants who are foolish enough to convert to they very religion that probably sold their ancestors into slavery.

    I would never vote for anyone like Keith Ellison because he has already shown that he is a fool who acts on emotions based on ignorance. In other words, a typical liberal.

    Lacking
    In
    Basic
    Education
    Reality
    And
    Logic

    Reply
  4. Kurt (Childe Roland)
    January 5, 2007 at 12:42 pm

    Plus, he probably got uppity in college and put his hands on a white girl. Can’t have that.

    Reply
  5. Tom
    January 5, 2007 at 1:21 pm

    @Andrew

    No we think that “muslim” means “believes in the quran”

    “Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya (religion tax) with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” (Koran 9:29)

    Here’s the gist of it

    muslims believe in quran

    quran makes child molesting legel (as long as it’s “withing marriage”)
    quran advocates killing anyone not thinking like in the quran
    quran legalises beating your wife
    quran legalises sectarian violence, even between muslims
    quran validates spreading religion by fear

    If A->B and B->C then C can only be …

    Reply
  6. AF
    January 5, 2007 at 1:48 pm

    He is a black muslim, he was running for congress, if he didn’t say things like that in his campaign, if he didn’t show himself to be very moderate and mainstream, he wouldn’t have gotten elected. I mean, he lives in a country where a tv host on cnn can ask him “prove to me you are not working with the terrorists” just because he is muslim.

    Reply
  7. Andrew Brehm
    January 5, 2007 at 2:06 pm

    “he lives in a country where a tv host on cnn can ask him “prove to me you are not working with the terrorists” just because he is muslim.”

    You mean a country where free speech is still allowed?

    Do you think he wants to change that? Scary…

    Reply
  8. leo
    January 5, 2007 at 2:32 pm

    AF @ 6.

    It was my very first reaction as well.

    Than I thought, may be guy is genuine and I prejudge him unfairly.

    Then again, what about that ‘Taqija’ thing.

    Everybody lies but only Muslims openly allow that.

    Is it because they are such strong believers that do it only under duress?

    Or, is it absolution for each and every case in their daily lives?

    My choice, just wait and see.

    As they say in my old country, spring will come, snow will melt, than we will see who took a dump and where.

    Reply
  9. SoCalJustice
    January 5, 2007 at 2:44 pm

    It’s not that Ellison’s lying – he’s a politician. He’s just taking public positions that will make his life, and election, easier.

    Plus, I really don’t think he wants to be the next Cynthia McKinney or Jim Moran, sounding off about Israel/Jews, etc… That would be so cliche – let him represent the people of his district in Minneapolis, not Muslims, or “Muslims” or whatever.

    He has an, er, interesting past. Plus he was supported heavily by CAIR and Mahdi Bray – that is pretty troubling. Obviously I get why the organized/political Muslim community is embracing them – and you cannot fault them – or Ellison – for that.

    However, if Ellison comes straight out of the gate in a McKinney style pro-Hamas way, he would really hurt the chances of Muslims in future races.

    Anyway, he’s off to a good start and he’s shown himself to be incredibly media saavy.

    I’m pulling for him.

    Reply
  10. Dave
    January 5, 2007 at 2:57 pm

    Richard you are a complete Tard.

    Reply
  11. America Is About A Year Away From Turning On Islam For Good
    January 5, 2007 at 4:01 pm

    Ellison will be defeated in 2008, because he will be a laughingstock in 2007

    Islam is:

    killing gays because they are gay (iran, saudi)
    raping servants because you are paying them (denver)
    kidnapping your daughter because she converts to christianity (los angeles)
    killing you daughter is she is violated due to ‘honor’ (englad, france, everyhwere)
    banning other religions from being open (saudi, everywhere)
    burning churches and killing christians (egypt, somalia, iran, iraq, everywhere)
    forcing other religions to pay taxes and bar them from jobs or holding office because they aren’t muslim (everywhere)
    believing the “THE GREAT EXCUSE” that israel is the cause of all of your problems (everywhere)

    America is a about a year away from turning on islam for good. Did you know that even after 9-11 americans did NOT equate islam with terrorism? But NOW they do? wanna know why?
    -dutch cartoons
    -the pope
    -rage-of-the-day

    the whole “YOU ACCOMODATE ME but I would never DREAM of accomodating you” crap will not fly, and you muslims reading on here take note of that woman in michigan who tried to sue the GYM for having MEN workout with WOMEN: THIS IS AMERICA. GET OVER IT. THE MORE STUPID THINGS YOU COMPLAIN ABOUT, THE GREATER THE LEVEL OF HOSTILITY YOU INVOKE, UNTIL ONE DAY, WE SEAL THE BORDER AND NO “COLLEGE SCHOLARSHIPS” FOR YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Reply
  12. ramy
    January 5, 2007 at 4:52 pm

    I wanted to comment on some of the hate posts, but well what can one say.
    1 – Digging into religious texts to incriminate one religion or another is simply stupid, you’ll always find something you find immoral or illogical( by your standards offcourse).
    2 – Muslims will be what they are, whether you like it or not. Every culture has its dark side. In todays world you either learn to live with them or shut yourself in.
    3 – I’ve dealt with many different people of different cultures and backgounds, and I’ve learnt to deal with people on a person by person basis. If you deal with people on the basis of their background, race or religion you’ll end up being wrong almost 99% of the time.

    Reply
  13. America Is About A Year Away From Turning On Islam For Good
    January 5, 2007 at 5:17 pm

    Ranny:

    Thanks for the lecture. You changed my mind.

    So why don’t muslims condemn bombings in Jersualem? Why don’t they condemn 911 (instead of saying ‘OMG THE MOSSAD DID IT OMG OMG OMG’)? Why don’t they condemn the bombing of the GOlden Mosque in Iraq? What about the shameful killings of Buddhists in Thailand, why don’t Muslims condemn the Buddhist massacres in Thailand? Or the Phillipines? Why do Muslims think that Relgion=Military conquest instead of being a christian where religion=love, acceptance, and leaving SPIRITUAL CONQUEST to the decision of each person, aka free will. Why do muslims insist that Christians treat Muslims as equals WHILE NO CHRISTIAN IS ALLOWED TO SPREAD HIS FAITH ANYWHERE IN THE ARABIAN WORLD?????

    The last question is the most important for you to answer, and the question you are LEAST likely to respond to:

    “WHY should everyone else accomodate Islam, when Islam accomodates NO ONE ELSE?”

    http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/ — i love this site!

    7114 (publicized) attacks in the name of Islam since 911!!!!
    430 dead in the name of Islam LAST WEEK ALONE!!!!

    Huzzah!!!

    Reply
  14. ramy
    January 5, 2007 at 5:37 pm

    America is about ………,

    Islam Is:

    1) Islam isn’t the only religion persecuting people because of their sexual orientation. You are citing extreme regimes as examples. Saudi is known for its exceptionally brutal laws so is Iran. In the rest of the Islamic world homosexuals are looked down upon, may be persecuted legally in some countries but mostly are left alone. Homophobic? yes muslims are, so are christians and jews.

    2)”raping servants because you are paying them”, I’m sure you don’t mean that rape is a crime exclusive to Muslims.

    3) Some families go to extreme measures when a member changes faith. Frankly yes, there is a problem when people convert from Islam. Is it fair, personally I think not.

    4) Honor killings are not condoned by Islam, but they are more of a cultural thing.

    5) Banning other religions, Saudi and Iran I agree, the rest nope.

    6) Burning Churches and killing christians is not condoned by Islam. I’ve witnessed what happened in Egypt and people here condemn any form religious violence, extremist use violence to polarize people. However I think Sudan is a form of secterian strife more than anything else.

    7) I don’t know of a single Islamic country which still forces dhimmi taxation.
    Please give me an example. About jobs or holding office, maybe higher governmental positions otherwise you are absolutely wrong. Is Islam being absolutely fair to other religious minorities? no, and reform is required.

    8) It’s much easier for uneducated people to believe in conspiracy theories since they are easier for them to grasp than truth. I’m sure you have people who believe in conspiracy theories in the US too.

    The reasons you equate Islam to terror is :

    1) Muslim got outraged because some newspaper made fun of its most respected figure. Muslims did overreact mostly because most of us aren’t aware of concepts of freedom of expression. People simply thought that it was another western conspiracy theory out to get Islam (thanks to islamist propaganda which publicized and made a big deal out of the whole thing in the first place). To be frank I was offended by the pics my self but the most I would have done was an angry letter to the editor.

    2) The pope. What would’ve happened if the pope denied the holocaust, made a speech against orthodox christians or jews? Would they have kept quiet.

    3) rage-of-the-day. What????

    An Arab Muslim.

    Reply
  15. Andrew Brehm
    January 5, 2007 at 5:49 pm

    “Homophobic? yes muslims are, so are christians and jews.”

    Yes, but Christian, Jewish, and atheist countries do not execute homosexuals.

    That is the difference.

    Reply
  16. ramy
    January 5, 2007 at 6:05 pm

    America is about…..

    How are they supposed to condemn anything? As in other dictatorships and authoritarian regimes the only one who can issue any kind of official condemnations and statements are the Governments and Newspapers which follow the governments line. The only form of condemnations you can from common everyday arabs are in blogs, like this one.

    Mr./Ms./Mrs. whoever, Arabs and Muslims are not one block. They are many different people with many different perspectives and interpretations of their religion. I could certainly go through the very numerous factions and ideologies within the Arab and Islamic world but that would take waayyyy much more space than what a comment space could offer.

    Finally about why Christians aren’t supposed to spread their religion. The answer to that is simple, it’s in the book. Does it make sense? no, is it fair? I think not, but so do so many things which come with any religion. The solution? Seperation of church (mosque in this case) and state and secular laws.

    Reply
  17. ramy
    January 5, 2007 at 6:26 pm

    “Why should everyone accomodate Islam when Islam accomodates no one?”

    The Salafists (extremists), are not willing to accomodate anyone even other fellow muslims who aren’t willing to believe in their extreme interpretations of Islam. Very small minority, Al Qaeda, Taliban, Sudan, Somali Courts etc..

    The traditionalist conservative muslims (Hanbali Muslims) e.g. Muslim Brotherhood and Wahabis, are willing to accomodate non-muslims, however they believe that should be under dhimmitude (within Islamic countries) as per Islamic Sharia. Saudi Arabia. Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt.

    The Moderate Muslim (Shafiite Muslims) e.g. Azhar, are calling for no descrimination on religious basis.

    The Rest : Don’t realy care.

    Again :Muslims aren’t one block with monotypical views

    Reply
  18. America Is About A Year Away From Turning On Islam For Good
    January 5, 2007 at 6:34 pm

    ramy,

    “2) The pope. What would’ve happened if the pope denied the holocaust, made a speech against orthodox christians or jews? Would they have kept quiet.”

    Hello! LIsten to your imams. The ayatollahs. THe mullahs. Every day they say Christians are the great Satan.

    And what did the pope say “ISLAM IS SPREAD BY THE SWORD”

    ….

    AND YOU DISAGREE??? NAME ME ONE PLACE ON EARTH

    Reply
  19. America Is About A Year Away From Turning On Islam For Good
    January 5, 2007 at 6:36 pm

    Ramy,

    name me ONE PLACE ON EARTH that Islam has NOT been spread by the sword?

    ONE COUNTRY where its people VOLUNTARILY chose to be muslim, not out of economic fear (dhimmi jaziya tax) or gender roles (women marrying muslims because all the non-muslim men were dead)

    Name Me ONE PLACE on earth that Islam has been spread through peace…

    I’m waiting!!!!

    oh, and the face you defend your hateful beliefs due to the koran is disgusting.

    listen to this song: sad thing is, it’s all true!

    http://www.patrickhenrysongs.com/ItsInTheKoran-WindowsMedia-HiFi.html

    Reply
  20. America Is About A Year Away From Turning On Islam For Good
    January 5, 2007 at 6:39 pm

    ramy,

    everywhere in ENGLAND (and, even parts of america) muslims are saying “we are special. we should be able to cover our faces when we go in a bank. we should be able to have separate workout rooms. we should be able to have DIFFERENT prayer rooms at airports instead of the interfaith ones where, amazingly, buddhists, jews, and christians all currently pray together. we deserve anything said about muhammid to be called a ‘hate crime’ while at the same time our brothers in the mideast are slitting the throats of christian boys (iraq, somalia, yemen)”

    Face it, your “brothers in islam” are a bunch of complainers that think EVERYONE owes THEM an APOLOGY!

    What a joke!

    still waiting… name me one place on earth where islam was NOT spread by the sword…

    Reply
  21. ramy
    January 5, 2007 at 6:54 pm

    A final note to all those who hate Muslims or Arabs:

    I can understand that anti – arab/Islamic senitment is at an all time high at this point in time. This of course is understandable considering the strained state the world is in today. Any observer of the middleeast will tell you that there is a state of internal strife along muslim – muslim and muslim – non muslim lines, caused by the many different and rapid changes in the international geo-political landscape, starting with the fall of the ottoman empire, fall of the soviet union to the invasion of Iraq and the ensuing secterian violence.

    What sandmonkey, BP and other prominent arab bloggers are trying to do is give Western readers an internal perspective of the ongoing events. That is opposed to media interpretation of arabs as a bunch camel riding AK-47 weilding radicals who are out to get the rest of the world.

    Don’t get me wrong Extremist fanatics are out there and yes they wouldn’t even blink before taking the lives of an American, or even a fellow Muslim.
    But there is also the rest of us.

    Increaing Mutual Hatred between the East and West will only make things worst and is exactly what the Extremists want, i.e. polarising the world along cultural and religious lines.

    Reply
  22. Melissa in NorCal
    January 5, 2007 at 6:56 pm

    Ramy:

    I know that moderate Muslims are out there. They don’t usually stand up and say so though because the get ostracized or worse. That to me indicates a much bigger problem than perhaps you are willing to admit. When I talk one on one with my Muslim friends, they do seem to have an extremist point of view even if they don’t broadcast it or say it outright. Silence speaks volumes. I am an extremist Christian by the way and when people make fun of Christ, I may simmer a bit, internally, then I feel sad for them that they don’t know his love. It has never and will never occur to me to commit violence or protest in a malicious way to complain about this. I saw some really nasty signs during the whole cartoon thing and pope thing. They beheaded a priest. They shot a nun. We could have killed hundreds of terrorists in Afghanistan when they had that funeral and the Who’s Who of the Taliban showed up. We filmed it and never fired a single shot because we have morals and values that will eventually be the end of us unfortunately. I know that it is easy for a few bad eggs to ruin the whole salad, but let us not always use that excuse. A group of very evil young men raped and killed that girl in Maumudiya. I was hoping they would execute all of them, rather than most of them. My point is, we call these people out and punish them. It seems the opposite in trhe Islamic world. They are called out and praised instead. Do a few nutballs who claim to be Christians do terrible things? Yes. Abortion clinics, stuff like that. People always point out Oklahoma, but the state department has been suppressing credible links to Islam on that one as well.

    http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53485

    It is time to face the mirror my friend. Not just a few Muslims, all of them. Only then, can they save themselves.

    Reply
  23. America Is About A Year Away From Turning On Islam For Good
    January 5, 2007 at 7:04 pm

    ramy, i do NOT hate muslims or arabs, let me make that clear

    what i DO hate are the values of ISLAM. Not ‘radical islam’, not ‘extreme islam’, but MAINSTREAM ISLAM. I hate it because it kills, it conquers, it subjects, it discriminates, it subjugates, and it is against the very nature of God.

    ISLAM has always always always been spread by bloodlust and the sword – greed is human and obviously every person of every faith screws up – but ISLAM is unique in mixing Conquest with Holiness and creating this jacked up world where the values of a 7th grade football team exist for adults. Don’t believe me? CHeck out Gaza. There is a civil war going on, muslims butchering muslims. without a second thought. Sure, you will blame their pulling the trigger on israel or the pope or the west, but ISLAM is the cancer.

    ****WHAT is the problem of hating those who want to kill me? Does that make me a bigot? A racist? I thought that made me a human, since i, ya know, WANT to survive?

    ISLAM is the problem. And unfortunately for you, Islam will lose. But guess what ramy? WHen Islam loses, your brothers will not be killed (like the loser would if islam mwon); no, when islam finally is extinguished, the world will have more freedom, more education, more gender equality, more love, more tolerance, more expression, more wealth, and more peace.

    I for one, can’t wait.

    BUt again, i don’t hate “arabs” — i hate ISLAM>

    Reply
  24. America Is About A Year Away From Turning On Islam For Good
    January 5, 2007 at 7:06 pm

    Messlia–

    there are not moderate muslims.

    if so, where are they?

    THIS is the problem… “radical islam” is not the problem… “MAINSTREAM ISLAM” is the problem, with a few of the ‘extreme reformers’ that you might find in a few colleges or towns across america as the only muslims with 21st century values. I finally agree with the people who i used to formerly think of as nutty — that the MAJORITY of muslims have these hateful koranic conquest values, and the “RADICALS” are actually LIBERALLY RADICAL (good for the usa)… mainstream ISLAM is the enemy, not people. ISLAM!

    Reply
  25. ramy
    January 5, 2007 at 7:13 pm

    America is about…..

    Muslims are who they are….. Islamic history is what it is… I could go on and forth comparing Islamic to Western Christian, Emperial and nationalistic histories all day, and what would come out of it all?? It’s pointless. You seem to be holding extreme anti-Arab, Anti-Islamic sentiments, so I’ll tell you what I tell people holding extreme anti-American sentiments I’ve met with:

    Muslims and Arabs are what they are, and will not likely change because you hate them, infact your hatred may contribute to deepening of the gulf. There are two things you could do:

    1) Tolerate Muslims/ Arabs and by tolerate I don’t mean accept, (tolerance and acceptance are very different). If you ever meet an Arab give him the cold shoulder for all I care.

    2) Continue to foster deep hatred, join an anti-arab /anti-Islamic organization and call for the nuking of every single Arab country. But guess what? You have the same mind set of the Al Qaeda extremist on the other side of the world.

    The world will go on whether you like muslims or hate them.

    Reply
  26. Andrea
    January 5, 2007 at 7:34 pm

    Melissa… I get rather tired of the argument “moderate Muslims do not speak out for fear of being ostracized”… its become a cliche and doesn’t really reflect the reality of what I’ve seen in the Muslim world. I was married for five years to an Algerian. (as an aside our marriage ended for reasons that many do – we wanted different things out of life). Anyways, I had a wonderful opportunity to interact with a Muslim family. The thing that attracted me to my husband and still does attract me to the Muslims I’ve known is that that they talk about REAL issues. I find that many in my country have endless conversations about nothing – about work, or their latest purchase, or the weather. We always avoid things that matter, like politics or relgion. Not so with the Arab Muslims I’ve known. They talk and argue and debate endlessly. My ex-husband used to regularly tell his countrymen how crap their views were and how they were a bunch of donkeys who didn’t know anything about the world and were brainwashed 🙂 My current best friend is Tunisian, and likewise we have the most interesting conversations with each other and his friends. Noone has EVER had a problem with me sharing my views and my Christian faith with them – even the ones with “extremist” views. And yes, sadly, a LOT of Arab Muslims have extreme views that I violently disagree with. The secret is I know a lot about their culture and religion and I geniunely like a lot of what I see. The viewpoint we get in the west is not the sum total of what happens in the Muslim world. The social issues are absolutely incredible there, but there are also wonderful, magical moments. And I certainly have not seen any evidence that moderates are afraid to express their views.

    Yes, moderate Muslims tend not to publically express their views in western media. In a way I don’t blame them. I am a Christian but with serious disagreements with much of the organized church. I would freely express my views with tolerant church-goers who geniunely wanted to know, but I would never expose them in an unsympathetic media who would more than likely misprepresent my position anyways. Why would moderate Muslims want to explain their views to people who have very little historical understanding of Islam in the first place?

    Reply
  27. chellebelle
    January 5, 2007 at 7:34 pm

    I swear, SM could write “the sun is shining here today” and some of you would find some excuse to go off into your racist and anti Muslim tirades. I can just see it now…”oh the sun can’t really shine in Egypt because Allah is really the Moon God…”

    Your hypocrisy is amazing. You go on and on about the evils of Islam, how intolerant it is of other religions…but can’t see that you are equally intolerant. Ellison is labeled a threat too the USA before simply because he is black and Muslim. He has been in office like 36 hours, give him a chance to fuck up. To make it worse some idiot here writes that he shouldn’t have converted because Arabs probably sold his ancestors into slavery. I guess that freedom of religion part in the Constitution only applies if you pick Christianity?

    Here is the USA I see if many of you got your way:

    – Mud people would just realize they are inferior and stop expecting us to treat them as if they are.

    – Only Christians and Jews (but not too many) can be elected to office. Muslims need not apply. Actually it would probably be best to bar the blacks. If the Hispanics don’t come back to the Republican Party, they will be out also. The Asians, well they are really smart, we will let them get elected, as long as they accept their inferiority and don’t expect to have any real power.

    – Since the Muslims are so intolerant we are going to show them! It would be so much easier if they would just convert to Christianity. But if they wont, that just means they are probably terrorists, so we better keep an eye on them. What choice do we have really; we know their only goal is to turn us into an Islamic state. They didn’t come here for the same reason as our ancestors; you know to make a better life. They are all part of Islam’s evil plot to take over the world and destroy our way of life. And since we have gone broke trying to liberate the Muslims of Iraq, they are going to have to pay a special tax to cover the cost of surveillance. Just call it the tax you pay for being Muslim in the USA.

    – As of now, the border is closed, we are not accepting anymore of you stinking Muslims or mud people. The USA is for the Whites, we are finally going to make that clear.

    I can’t wait!!!

    Reply
  28. ramy
    January 5, 2007 at 7:48 pm

    The problem with many people out there is that they are calling on Moderate Muslims to be more vocal. The thing is many are, the best way they can. When interviewed on American television we’re called apologetics. Blog writers are called delusionals living in alternative realities. Many even claim that the Right wing in media of the US know more about us than the people who live here. Everything we say is either a fabrication or self delusion.

    It’s simply pointless talking when the other side is not willing to listen.

    Reply
  29. Hard To Swallow
    January 5, 2007 at 8:22 pm

    ..
    absurd thought –
    God of the Universe says
    never confront Islamists

    just let them push you around
    change your culture to fit them

    absurd thought –
    God of the Universe says
    don’t kill religious Nazis
    ..

    Reply
  30. Melissa in NorCal
    January 5, 2007 at 8:31 pm

    Chellebelle,

    What are you talking about? Stop accusing everyone of racism. What the hell is a mud person anyways? Most of the people commenting here are probably of a darker flavor. Give it a rest already. America is a very tolerent country whereas, despite so many differences, we make it work. We make it work the best history has yet known. As far as your assertion that Jews and Christians are elected mostly, you are right. Not about Jews of course, but about Christians. 80% of Americans claims to be Christian. Does it really suprise you that their elected leaders are Christian? Jews are elected where there are large concentration of Jews. How many Mormons are in office? I’ve got news for you. They aren’t Christians. I have a lot a Latino and Asian politicians in my district. Guess what my district looks like. Nope, mostly white and Republican. How did those pesky minorities get into office? Uh, we thought they’d rep us well. I know you hate to admit it, but racism and bigotry is overexagerated by peeps like you. You have no idea. My friends and family coming from Lebanon recently and Turkey before that can tell you a little something about the reality on the ground in the ME if you would even listen, but you seem to be more comfortable screeching about conspiracy theories and the like.

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  31. Melissa in NorCal
    January 5, 2007 at 8:40 pm

    Andrea:

    I agree with you partly. I have dated one Muslim and and one convert from Islam to Christianity. He was sentenced to death by being put in a hole and have dirt filled up to his neck. He chose America. Can’t say that I blame him. Needless to say, he didn’t have any rousing endorsements for Islam. The other, still a practicing Muslim, enjoys debating politics and religion with me. It seems a civil enough dialogue, but his myspace is filled with Palestinian propaganda. It scared me actually. I thought he was a moderate, but clearly not so. I don’t know who you grew up around, but my friends and family were always talking about politics and religion, even the non-ME ones. I guess my point is, their are moderates, they do sometimes speak out, they are ostracized and worse. However, the reality is, that most Muslims don’t seem to be moderate. That is the scary part.

    Reply
  32. Egypeter
    January 5, 2007 at 8:47 pm

    Ramy –

    You said:

    “Burning Churches and killing christians is not condoned by Islam. I’ve witnessed what happened in Egypt and people here condemn any form religious violence, extremist use violence to polarize people. However I think Sudan is a form of secterian strife more than anything else.”

    Wait…hold on a sec. “People here condemn…” Where? Egypt?? People don’t condemn shit in Egypt, what are you talking about? I’m Egyptian. And if by “people” you mean Sandmonkey, Big Pharaoh and a handfull of other reasonable Egyptian bloggers, then yes, I would agree with you. But to imply that most Egyptians are shocked or appalled by sectarian violence is plain false. Find me where Egyptian muslims condemned the make-shift church that was burnt and the riots that ensued at Udasayat near Luxor last year. All because the village’s Christians were not allowed to build their own actual church. Find me where Egyptian muslims protested the Alexandrian Riots where a mob of several thousand nearly stormed and tore down St. George Church in Moharram Bey because they found some stupid play, conducted WITHIN the church, to be offensive towards Islam (what the hell ISN’T offensive these days). And I don’t really remember hearing any condemnations after that one individual along with his friends stormed a Church wielding swords and salshing at the “kuffars” while screaming “allahu akbar” during last year’s Good Friday services. Actually during the funeral the next day for one of the victims that was stabbed, muslim mobs were pelting and taunting the Christians during the funeral procession, fights broke out and Christian bussinesses were burned and looted…DURING THE FUNERAL! So where were the protests? Where were the condemnations? Where was the justice? Oh wait, this is Egypt, where there is no concept of justice. And acutally the government white-washed every single incident. And for a final slap in the face, the sword wielding indivicual was declared mentally insane within 10 minutes of the “authorities” apprehending the guy. Oh, and for the record, all that WAS JUST 2006!!

    From your replies you sound like a fairly moderate Egyptian muslim, which, in and of itself, is VERY rare treat these days, but to say, “I’ve witnessed what happened in Egypt and people here condemn any form religious violence” is utter bullshit becuase people ‘DON’T’ condemn a damn thing…

    Reply
  33. Craig
    January 5, 2007 at 9:25 pm

    Plus, he probably got uppity in college and put his hands on a white girl. Can’t have that.

    Hey, Kurt. You were making me mad before, but now I’m starting to feel sorry for you. Where is all this hate coming from? And why is it being directed at your own society? You’re not just an atheist, you’re an anarchist, aren’t you?

    Reply
  34. ramy
    January 5, 2007 at 9:27 pm

    Egypeter,

    I don’t get your stance or your definition of condemnation. Most of the people I know (apart from a few nut cases) and trust me I know a lot, think the events of alexandria where terrible and should not have happened. The public mainstream media (eventhough providing a watered down version of what really happened) clearly condemned what happened. During Friday sermon the Imam called clearly for national solidarity, eventhough he wasn’t crazy about the play. The only person I knew who showed any signs of pleasure happened to be a Muslim Brotherhood nutcase. What I wrote here is from personal experience.

    I know over the past few years muslims and copts haven’t been that crazy about one another, but not the extent of condoning violence against one another. If you recall, the participants of in the Alexandria masacre where a group of unemployed lowlife Ikhwan mobsters. What happened in Alexandria and the lack of government action is reprehensible, but you can’t use the same brush to paint everyone in Egypt.

    Reply
  35. America Is About A Year Away From Turning On Islam For Good
    January 5, 2007 at 9:58 pm

    Great job ramy…

    blame CLEAR MUSLIM VIOLENCE/DISCRMINIATION/HARRASSMENT on “unemployed lowlife mobsters”…

    and what religion were these “mobsters”, ramy? jewish? i thought everyone was ‘born a muslim they just didn’t know it’

    HOW you – or anyone else – can summarily say “oh, well that wasn’t us” about the treatment of the Copts is insane. I bet you think 911 was caused by the Mossad, or that the 2004 Tsunami was caused by JEW ATOM BOMBS!!!

    See, folks? This is typical… they scream ‘discrimination!!” in america if they can’t have their own gyms or prayer rooms or dress codes… and yet, when THEIR BROTHERS ACTUALLY DISCRIMINATE in Egypt, what do they say? — “Pshh! That’s not caused by Muslims after all!!”” I’m beginning to see that Ramy is devoid of independent thought after all… 🙂
    LOL!

    Reply
  36. Rave
    January 5, 2007 at 10:11 pm

    This place is getting more and more filled with bigots

    @#35

    I feel sorry for your kind.

    Reply
  37. chellebelle
    January 5, 2007 at 10:21 pm

    Melissa:

    If you are not making racist and anti-muslims statements, (most of which haven’t got a damn thing to do with the topic at hand anyway)…THEN I AM NOT TALKING TO YOU; AM I DARLING?

    Your ask who am i calling racist..people like Kurt who writes RACIST SHIT LIKE THIS:
    **Plus, he probably got uppity in college and put his hands on a white girl. Can’t have that.** Thats who I was talking to.

    Dahh most ppl in Congress are Christian because most ppl in the USA are Christian, you state the obvious. I said if these people that hate Muslims get thier way Muslims will be barred from holding office in this country. That too me is the logical conclusion of thier rabid anti-Muslim feelings.

    Get a grip girl, I was being SARCASTIC and if you take time to read what I wrote you will see that I am saying, if they truly believe the racist and anti Muslim shit they write, the logical reaction is to turn our country into the type places they rant against.

    – One where NON-Christians/Jews or whoever the undesirable group dejour is, are prohibited from power just becasue they are not Christian or Jew.

    – We treat the undesireables, who today is the Muslims, but has always been the black, brown ect, are second class citizens.

    -The USA stops accepting the humble the meek the whatever unless they are white.

    I hope you get it now.

    Reply
  38. ramy
    January 5, 2007 at 10:38 pm

    America…. whatever.

    I think I politely and clearly made made the point that talking to you is pointless…. You’ve already made up your mind,

    stop pestering me….

    Reply
  39. Egypeter
    January 5, 2007 at 11:12 pm

    Ramy – I hear what you’re saying but I’m not sure if I totally agree with it.

    You said:

    “I know over the past few years muslims and copts haven’t been that crazy about one another, but not the extent of condoning violence against one another. If you recall, the participants of in the Alexandria masacre where a group of unemployed lowlife Ikhwan mobsters.”

    Ramy, some estimates, and I have pictures of the event, claim that there were upwards of 5000 people. FIVE THOUSAND Alexandrians gathered outside the church on that day screaming anti-Chrisitan slogans, waving the Quran in the air and nearly overran the state security police trying to storm the church. The church was basically on lockdown and needed gurads posted outside for several weeks afterwards. Now, how am I supposed to believe that every single one of those 5000 individuals were “unemployed lowlife ikhwan?” I can’t believe that, no way.

    I share your disgust for the Muslim Brotherhood/Ikhwan and I agree that relations b/w the two communities in Egypt is at a recent all-time low. And if Egypt is not able to stop the advance of the Ikhwan and their filthy destructive ideology then we’re only seeing the beginning…

    Reply
  40. ramy
    January 6, 2007 at 12:03 am

    Egypeter,

    I don’t want to contradict you and I don’t condone the actions of the mob. But I’ll have to ask you this, do you really believe that the vast majority of Egyptian Muslims are out to kill Egytian Copts.Do you really thing Egypt is turning out to be another Iraq? I think not, I think we Egyptian have seen this happen before (Zawya Hamra during the Sadat reign) and we’ve managed to stand by each other and pull through. I wanted to correct the notion that Egyptian Muslim and Copt are out to kill each other.

    Egypeter, the problem with Egypt now is that after the failure of Nassers Notion of Arab Nationalism many people turned to religion as an alternative savior, hence the recent rise of the MB (which is a contributing factor to recent religius strife). I think a healthy alternative should be Egyptian Nationalism, but it will not work without the contribution of all Egyptians, hence my support for movements like Kifaya which is headed by a highly intellectual Copt. Dreadful things have happened I agree but I think we should all look to the future and lets not get bogged down on secterian trivialities.

    I didn’t mean to sound rhetorical or overly optimistic, but I’m getting really sick of undertones of Egyptian pessemism.

    Reply
  41. ramy
    January 6, 2007 at 12:28 am

    on a lighter note …. let me tell you about the finger pointing game.

    Back in Med school a professor once said we should never play the finger pointing game. Let me give you an example : A patient is showing complications to treatment, the specialist points fingers at the intern saying he misdiagnosed the case and that he was incompetent and had other patients misdiagnose previously. The intern points the finger at the lab techinician saying that the results where false and that they came out late and that they always do with this guy. The lab technician points the finger at the nurse who points the finger at the patient for coming late with his symptoms. By this time the patient has developed more severe complications and may even die while waiting for the proffesional staff to resolve their petty squables.

    My point is the finger pointing game can be played in politics as well, but the patient this time is the people and the country’s wellfare.

    Reply
  42. Howie
    January 6, 2007 at 2:27 am

    Ramy-

    You should be appointed “spokesman for Islam”…and I am not being sarcastic. You see…”your” voice is almost never heard and I am not sure who is mostly to blame for that…repressive Islamic socieities or biased media…I do lean towards the former.

    But your points are important and need to be presented over and over. What I am particualary impressed with is your calmness, fairness and lack of blaming/victim stuff.

    You present your points exceptionally well.

    Reply
  43. John
    January 6, 2007 at 2:33 am

    Actually, those terrorists who are thinking strategically would welcome this kind of talk from any Westerner. It’s just another voice browbeating Israel into making more concessions for the sake of peace.

    Reply
  44. Howie
    January 6, 2007 at 2:36 am

    Ramy-

    Just read your stuff again…and this is coming from a Jew married to an Israeli and I used to live in Israel…

    Well-spoken..intelligent…important…sane…

    You have my admiration…which is worth less than half a plate of humos…but you still got it 😉

    Reply
  45. naomi
    January 6, 2007 at 3:22 am

    Back to the article, the guy is a politician which is a notch above public prostitute (but making better money) anyhow. He has to say pretty things but I think we would all be better served by non-partisan economists, academics, sociologists, and entrepreneurs to get some real commitment by the masses. Fanatics/terrorists in any flavor (Jew, Christian, Muslim) are an embarrassment to the whole and end up getting groups hated sometimes unnecessarily. As well, I’m not a conspiricist, but I CERTAINLY believe many of the terrorist activities are funded by powers that be far higher than our media allows us to see. Who profits by the unrest? The Imam? The Preacher? The religion of Muslimism? Christianity? Judiasm? …no. The corporation and the multi-billionaire profit. But aren’t we pretty pawns pointing all our little fingers at each other and classifying the different degrees of each of our faiths – pointing at each other again. Who’s going to the bank? Follow the money — a cute catch phrase that gained panache after 911. But if we were able to really follow the money, we’d find a few select Jews, Muslims, & Christians who don’t really give a whit about religious domination profiting greatly at the masses expense. But not mine. I’m not gonna hate Muslims. I’m not gonna hate Mexicans. I’m not gonna hate Jews. I’m not gonnna hate other Christians. I might even find a scientologist just to add some flavor to my love pie. I sure wish terrorists would try an alternative tactic. Start blowing up honey bombs — where no one really gets killed but soaked in honey. The globe could laugh, the point would be made — and honey bee producers would get rich.

    Reply
  46. ramy
    January 6, 2007 at 4:55 am

    Howie,

    Thanks Buddy, Cheers :-).

    Reply
  47. Richard B.
    January 6, 2007 at 4:59 am

    “A final note to all those who hate Muslims or Arabs”

    I for one do not hate Arabs or Muslims, I have friends in both camps. I am totally against those who hate me for being an American and/or for being a Christian.

    Reply
  48. Howie
    January 6, 2007 at 6:31 am

    Ramy-

    You are Muslim right? So that’s “cheers” with ah…a milkshake? 😉

    Reply
  49. ramy
    January 6, 2007 at 7:03 am

    I am a muslim, but I wouldn’t mind an occasional beer/vodka with the going gets tough. Well anyway milkshake is fine with me, cheers……. 😉

    Reply
  50. Kurt (Childe Roland)
    January 6, 2007 at 8:10 am

    I was being sarcastic, Chellebelle. I would think that was obvious, but alas. On to Craig:

    “Hey, Kurt. You were making me mad before, but now I’m starting to feel sorry for you. Where is all this hate coming from? And why is it being directed at your own society? You’re not just an atheist, you’re an anarchist, aren’t you? ”

    I do not “hate my own society.” In fact, I’m rather enraged at Leftists who kowtow to Islamists and sacrifice their ideals in the multiculti orgy. However, I don’t want Western Liberalism to die loudly at the hands of Muslim fanatics OR quietly at the hands of Christian fanatics (whom, so far, use politics and intimidation instead of violence. So far).

    I also acknowledge that, however much I disagree with their philosophy, most Christians aren’t evil mini-tyrants. Unlike you, I feel the same way about Muslims. Don’t like the religion, don’t want it encroaching upon my freedom and hedonism, but I don’t think Muslims are evil.

    And I consider myself a libertine rather than an anarchist. I’m not down with morons who throw molotov cocktails to protest some vague notion of “globalization.” Fascism in a bottle, as far as I’m concerned.

    Reply
  51. Craig
    January 6, 2007 at 8:30 am

    Kurt,

    I was being sarcastic, Chellebelle. I would think that was obvious, but alas.

    You’ve made at least 4 racist statements about African Americans and then put them into other people’s mouths. Once, you used “ebonics” to make fun of the way you think Christians speak. Sarcasm. Yeah. Whatever.

    And I won’t even attempt to count the times you’ve done the same with arabs.

    And your bigotry doesn’t stop with racism. You’ve made insulting comments about Christians and Muslims too. You insulted anyone who believed in a higher power, period.

    On to Craig:

    Yes, by all means.

    I do not “hate my own society.” In fact, I’m rather enraged at Leftists who kowtow to Islamists and sacrifice their ideals in the multiculti orgy. However, I don’t want Western Liberalism to die loudly at the hands of Muslim fanatics OR quietly at the hands of Christian fanatics (whom, so far, use politics and intimidation instead of violence. So far).

    You insult left, right and center, and any sort of religion. And ethnic minorities. What is it you actually like, then? Other than militant atheism?

    I also acknowledge that, however much I disagree with their philosophy, most Christians aren’t evil mini-tyrants. Unlike you, I feel the same way about Muslims.

    What do you know about me?

    And your comments here have been quite clear. You believe Muslims are bad, but Christians are worse.

    Don’t like the religion, don’t want it encroaching upon my freedom and hedonism, but I don’t think Muslims are evil.

    Yeah, basically you just don’t give a fuck as long as you can convert everyone to atheism and do… whatever it is that people like you do… without being bothered by anyone else. Right?

    And I consider myself a libertine rather than an anarchist.

    You consider wrong, then. I’m a Libertarian, and while it’s closer to anarchist philosophy than I like to think, it’s not the same thing. The primary difference is that Libertarians like *minimal* societal structures imposed on them via government. Anarchists want none at all. That’s you.

    I’m not down with morons who throw molotov cocktails to protest some vague notion of “globalization.” Fascism in a bottle, as far as I’m concerned.

    Those aren’t anarchists. Those are idiots who can’t quite figure out what they want to be when they grow up. Not the same thing.

    Reply
  52. Kurt (Childe Roland)
    January 6, 2007 at 8:52 am

    I said “libertine” not Libertarian. Not really a fan of Libertarians.

    But I don’t recall using Ebonics, and I only “put words into people’s mouths” because nearly every right-wing Coulterish “Leftists are evil and the Muslims are coming!” type I’ve met has been a closet (or not so closeted) racist. I give absolutely not-a-shit about someones race, and I’m equally savage towards both racists and people whom use racism as a crutch to be perpetual victims.

    As for what I believe in? I’m a quasi-socialist (I would just say “socialist” but I can’t stand louts who don’t work then spend their welfare checks on big-screen TV’s and complain about how no one is helping the poor) an atheist, and I believe in democracy, but with safeguards to protect against both mob-rule and tyranny of the minority. I also believe in demolishing any laws and restrictions on the sexual behavior of consenting adults, as well as legalizing drugs. The ‘drug war’ is stupid and does nothing but increase crime and incarcerate addicts. Legalize drugs and watch the organized crime syndicates dry up and blow away. I also oppose gun-control.

    Basically, I’d like socialist aspects (like free healthcare, quality education and general “safety nets”) added to a humane but robust economic system, and as much personal freedom as possible. If someone wants to be a Puritan and go to church three times a week, fine. Just don’t stop me from lighting a spliff and having deliciously nasty sex.

    Reply
  53. Craig
    January 6, 2007 at 9:54 am

    But I don’t recall using Ebonics

    Yeah. You prolly didn’t notice because you make fun of the way you think black people talk so much that it just seems normal.

    and I only “put words into people’s mouths” because….

    Do I really need to point out that there is no “because” that justifies offensive behavior?

    Next it’ll be “I only make fun of black people because….”

    Or “I only make fun of Christians because…”

    Are you genuinely unaware of what you’re doing? Or do you just think that nobody is clever enough to see through the smoke screens? You do seem to have quite the ego problem, don’t you? So, I’m guessing the latter.

    Reply
  54. The Usual Suspect
    January 6, 2007 at 10:02 am

    my sister lives in a small town about 220 kms south of Cairo- it is a Muslim Brotherhood stronghold. In the late 1990’s the town was the scene of sectarian violence initiated by Islamists.
    I visited earlier this year and my young neice and I took a walk. As we were walking a man approached. He was young, bearded and wore a long white galabiya.
    My neice grabs my arm and leads me across the road. I was puzzled.
    “Look out Auntie” she says “That guy looks like a terrorist. We’re scared of them”.
    So, to all of those who are commenting on this blog that ALL Muslims are so and so and Islam itself is so and so, realise this: Islam is not a monolith; Muslim terrorists are a minority who strike fear in everyone’s hearts; the battle against Islamic terrorism is not the West’s fight alone- it is a battle for Islam as well; moderate Muslims do speak up but the best we can do is to promote the spread of moderate Islam among ourselves and resist the Wahabi mind set.

    Reply
  55. Kurt (Childe Roland)
    January 6, 2007 at 10:26 am

    Oh, Craig. “Offensive behavior?” Did you join the PC ThoughtCrime Unit while I wasn’t looking? There’s ALWAYS room for offensive behavior. Here are some more culturally & racially offensive thoughts from Kurt the Wicked for you, starting with black culture since you have so brilliantly “outed” me as the first left-wing Yankee Klansman with a black aunt and a Japanese fiancee:

    *African-American culture is self-destructive. Fuck education and the White Devil’s society! It’s all about blingin’ and keepin’ it real!

    *WASPS are yuppie idiots with a penchant for crushing speech they don’t like, along with being the driving force for every bit of political idiocy across the entire Left-Right spectrum.

    *Asians need to drop the “perpetual foreigner” bullshit and quit pretending they’re ruthlessly oppressed minorities when they have the highest income per-capita of any group in the US.

    *You know how I feel about Evangelicals, so I’ll leave it with a merry “Jesus blows dead rats in Hell” for you.

    *Muslims can stop pretending it’s a crime against humanity to be frisked at the airport when they attempt to board a jet whilst wearing a kaffiyeh and “Allahu Akbar” shirt.

    *Jews can stop wallowing in perpetual victimhood. Every ethnic group on the planet has been brutalized, but only Jews seem to want to make 12 Holocaust documentaries a year and give themselves Academy Awards for “courage.” Yes, your grandpa was turned into a bar of soap, I heard it the first 50,000 times. How about we enact “Never Again!” by doing something about the genocide in Sudan.

    Did I leave anyone out, Craigster?

    Reply
  56. Not Your Mama
    January 6, 2007 at 2:46 pm

    I doubt the majority of people who voted for him did so based on his religion. His views have been pretty much known and are what got him elected.

    I don’t live in Minnesota so obviously I didn’t vote for him but yes, I would have if I did. I don’t care what his religion is. I’m Atheist and I’ve voted for Baptists, Jews, Mormons, Methodists, Catholics…you name it. I’m not voting for a religion, I’m voting on issues.

    Reply
  57. Jason
    January 6, 2007 at 3:38 pm

    “However, the reality is, that most Muslims don’t seem to be moderate.”

    The reality is western and muslim definitions of ‘moderate’ are very different.

    Reply
  58. Jason
    January 6, 2007 at 3:42 pm

    “THEN I AM NOT TALKING TO YOU; AM I DARLING?”

    Sorry Chellebelle, if your posting in the comments, your talking to everyone.

    Reply
  59. Jason
    January 6, 2007 at 3:56 pm

    What’s the big stink about this, coming from a state that elected a ‘pro-wrestler’ *laff* as Governor.

    Reply
  60. Karen
    January 6, 2007 at 5:27 pm

    @Kurt,
    Your list does seem a tad truncated. I don’t think you have included everyone in your ever so smug critique. Why don’t you tell us what ethnic/racial background you come from (I don’t care about your aunt or fiance)? Don’t forget to include a review of their nasty inborn traits. Please, do share with us won’t you.

    Reply
  61. AF
    January 6, 2007 at 10:22 pm

    just a random thought, christmas mass is on live right now on the main egyptian government owned tv stations; government ministers and political figures muslim and christian are attending it. I bet a lot of people posting here would find something like that surprising…

    Reply
  62. chellebelle_mn
    January 7, 2007 at 12:42 am

    Sorry Jason:

    You are simply wrong. I was commenting on those making racist and anti muslim statements. But if she agreed with those thoughts she is a bigot.

    Reply
  63. Egypeter
    January 7, 2007 at 12:49 am

    No, it’s not surprising at all. It’s Muburak trying to put on a happy face.

    Every year Egyptians hear the same bullshit greeting during the Orthodox Christmas and Easter celebrations. You know, the “We’re all one big happy family and nothing is wrong” crap that the stupid government does every year.

    Where the hell was the government when all of the disasters that occurred this year happened??? You know, the one’s I referenced earlier…

    We need action and not false shows of solidarity.

    Reply
  64. ramy
    January 7, 2007 at 2:08 am

    Egypeter,
    true….

    Reply
  65. Egypeter
    January 7, 2007 at 2:44 am

    Thanks Ramy – Kola sana wa inta tayib 🙂

    Reply
  66. AZZenny
    January 7, 2007 at 5:36 am

    As to Congressman Ellison — when campaigning he said firmly that one of the first things he planned to do if elected was take a trip to ISRAEL. As I recall, the Israeli gov’t and media said they’d be delighted to have him come, although some wags expressed just a little skepticism re: probable no-show.

    Let’s give him a month to get acclimated, now that he’s official, and see if he keeps his word. Bets, anyone?

    Reply
  67. Holme
    January 7, 2007 at 10:28 am

    Hey mr. America Is About A Year Away From Turning On Islam For Good
    The cartoons were not Dutch, but Danish!

    Reply
  68. James M
    January 8, 2007 at 2:52 pm

    A very abbreviated list of stupid ideas in this thread. Okay, I’m a busy man, so here are two of the worst:

    “Such-and-such political controversy is merely a front for big corporations to make money…somehow.”

    “If a religion has some provision or tradition by which adherents are allowed to practice their faith in secret if the reasonably fear persecution, that religion ‘allows it’s member to lie’, and its adherents are all liars about everything.” (Judaism has its own version of taqiyya, y’know, and anti-Semites have spun it just that way.)

    Reply
  69. M. Simon
    January 8, 2007 at 7:37 pm

    You know I’m Jewish and have never heard this idea of Jewish taqiyya. Until I read about it on some anti-Jew site. Then I looked it up. It was one man’s opinion recorded over 1,000 years ago and if it was ever taught as a way to behave it is no longer that way.

    I was always taught to be honest with every one. Why? For one it is easier to keep your story straight if you tell the truth. Second it is morally right.

    I do know that some muslims practice taqiyya and it is approved in some schools of muslim thought.

    Saying the two Jews and Muslims are similar in that respect is to ignore the intervening 1,000 years or so of history.

    Reply
  70. James M
    January 9, 2007 at 3:40 am

    Ah, but Jews have done it in times of persecution – which for Jews means a heck of a lot of the time. The ASpanish Inquisition rampaged a lot less than 1000 years ago, and any number of Jews publicly converted under duress while maintaing their faith in secret. They were called marranos. – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marranos

    “Jewish law allows violation of all laws under duress (ones), save for idolatry, forbidden sexual intercourse, and murder.” – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyya#Judaism

    Shiites have frequently had need of the same technique, and the key fact about it here is that the dissimulation is permitted only in response to duress or persecution. It doesn’t entitle, e.g. Ellison to lie about his political ideology, since he’s certainly in no danger of persecution here in America. So if he’s lying (and he may be – he is a politician and has done so before, about his longtime Nation of Islam involvement) it has nothing to do with taqiyyah.

    Reply
  71. BrooklynJon
    January 9, 2007 at 5:17 pm

    James M,

    So yeah, Daniel Pearl would have been off the hook – in therms of Jewish law – if he told his captors/head-choppers that he was not Jewish. What kind of bizarre religion would insist on truthfulness under a circumstance like that?

    OTOH, entering into a ten-year truce intending fully to break it as soon as you have the upper hand militarily would be frowned upon by most religions.

    Reply
  72. BrooklynJon
    January 9, 2007 at 5:26 pm

    M Simon,

    You can learn all kinds of interesting things about Judaism from sites like that, mostly having some tiny little kernel of truth at their center which, misunderstood, is then developed into a wildly inaccurate depiction of Jewish belief and practice.

    One openly and flamingly anti-semitic friend of mine off-handedly commented to me that Jews are allowed to break any promises they make. When I asked him what he was talking about, he referred to the Kol Nidre service at the beginning of Yom Kippur. In this service, a Jew declares that any vow he makes for the next year should not count as a vow, but merely as a promise of intent. Evidently, the hate site that he got that from left out the fact that this applies only to vows made to G-d, and that you’re on the hook for any vows made to anyone else. A kernel of truth? Yes. Truth? No. But interesting, nonetheless, for those who never really paid attention to the service, or to how outsiders might perceive it.

    Ramy,

    What Howie said.

    bj

    Reply
  73. M. Simon
    January 9, 2007 at 7:49 pm

    BrooklynJon,

    Thanks. This is a wonderful place. Many erudite and informed folks.

    I was aware of that part of the service because it is always explained in English (my native tounge) in the sermon. It was always – the Maker will forgive your trangressions, but you must make amends with your fellow man. I have heard that since I was a child.

    My Hebrew is rudimentary, i.e. I can read it, but I only understand about every fourth word, so I didn’t get it from the service direct.

    BTW you #71 is excellent.

    Reply

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