Hershed!

So yesterday I went to the AUC to hear Seymor Hersh speak. I must say I had only heard of the man in passing, and knew that he was the guy who broke out the Abu Gharib story, but beyond that I had no prejudices going in. And then I read who was presenting him, and those Prejudices went right out of the window. You see, the man was brought to us by the Heikal foundation for Journalism, as in Mohamed Hassanein Heikal. For those unfamiliar with the man, he wrote the book on crony journalism and regime propaganda. This is the man who crafted the image of Nasser for the egyptian people for over almost 2 decades, creating and crafting his personality cult, and then spent the rest of his days as an advisor, a writer, and occasionally a weapon's dealer. But in essence, he is an apologist for an authoratarian regime and a proagandist per excellence. So to hear mr. Hersh talking about how he is glad and optimistic regarding the future of egyptian journalism thanks to institutes such as the Heikal Foundation for Journalism, well, you can understand why I felt like crying at that moment.

However, I was immedietly distracted by the group masturbation session that followed those words as mr. Hersh started his speech. I was wowed by this man's ability to verbally give every single member of the audience a handjob. It was exactly everything they wanted to hear and nothing more. Simply amazing. This is a man who knows his audience and how exactly to bullshit them. For example, he mentioned- with the disclaimer that he has no proof of this- that the UN owed Iraq approx. 9 billion dollars for Oil sales in escrow, which was later on claimed by the US government when it took over Iraq and then simply dissappeared and vanished. He of course has no proof or sources to confirm this, but his audience is not one that needs proof in such matters. After all, we live for this shit.

What was slightly surprising was how pro-Shia the man was (the man apparently could see no harm coming from Iran, syria or hezbollah), which was later on explained to me in the context that this man is a member of the new Left, and the new left believes that any enemy of the USA is a good person and needs to be supported, because the USA is a very bad and naughty country. But the dude was stretching thing a little bit. I mean when he decribed the March 14th movement as "The US backed Sunni dominated Seniora government" I started heaving, but when he described  Hezbollah as "a member of an opposition coalition with Christian catholics" I knew I was in the presence of greatness. This is a man who could distort shit so well that he could disprove gravity. And just so you know, the US is backing a "Fitnah" amongst muslims that is trying to get sunnis to fight the Shias, who apparently before the US moved into Iraq never fought before. Oh yeah, and it's all the saudis fault. If you removed the Saudis and the americans, the region would be peacefull with rainbows, butterflies and choclate springs sprouting all over. It's not like the Iranians are equiping shia militias in Iraq, financing Hezbollah in Lebanon,  trying to detsabalize the government of Bahrain and occupies part of the UAE. Not gonna mention that, no way. The Iranians are cool after all, because they hate the US.

You know, I am willing to listen and accept his version of how the americans are to blame for everything in the middle-east if he would just mention the other asshole players and assign them blame as well. I mean, yeah, the sunnis are asshole extremist fanatics and Saudi is filled with crazy wahabi and mutawaeen, but so are the Shia, and Iran has the religious police and almost executed a girl for killing someone who wanted to rape her. Yet somehow, in Hersh's world view, what Iran does is not a problem, the Saudis are. After all, they are cozy with the US. Dude, this is the middle east. The devil's asshole. Everybody here is guilty. We all have blood on our hands. Sunnis and Shia. Christians and Jews. Arabs and Persians. It's just how things are around here, and it's not gonna change if the Saudis ran out of Oil or the US lost its power and status. Sorry. Any undergrad Junior International Affairs or middle-eastern studies student will tell you that it's a tad more complicated than that. But not as far as mr. Hersh is concerned.

All in all, it was lovely. People had the same blank happy look on their faces that they had after watching Fehrenheit 9/11. They didn't come up with anything new, just everything they have believed and heard a thousand times before just rehashed and repackaged and told to them by an anti-Israeli jew. And, after all, in a country like Egypt, the moral authority of anti-israeli jew is absolute.

So yeah, it was a fun hour. I love me a good bullshit artist. Maybe that's why I always had a soft spot for Bill Clinton. He was, after all, the master of Bullshit artistry! However, if you are not a critical thinker, you left this place with the satisfied face and shit-eating grin of someone who just got exactly what he wanted and expected, faith rewarded. Good for you. Keep it up. Your world will always be a simple one.

Lucky you! 

Comments

  1. But if you’ll just wear those rose-colored glasses that the nice men gave you, you’ll see everything the same as everyone else. And wouldn’t that be nice. Oh – and don’t forget your Meds.

  2. Whether he gave the nationalists a hand job or a blow job is of secondary importance compared to his serious allegation that the USA and Saudia Arabia are again financing Sunni extremists, in lebanon this time. it sounds nuts to me that USA is helping the people who are killing its soldiers just to stop Iran!!!! but this issue must be investigated by the americans.

  3. BrooklynJon says:

    Amgad,

    I believe the USA is financing everyone, and stealing money from everyone, at the same time. That way, it turns out to be completely even, and hence unproveable. Which is how you can know it to be true. In the world of the conspiracy theorist, the less evidence there is, the more likely it is to be true.

  4. “rainbows, butterflies and choclate springs sprouting all over.”

    Did you take that from ‘Team America – world police’?

  5. Roman Kalik says:

    Many bad things can be said of March 14. Sunni extremists isn’t among them. While Saudi-Arabia does support the Hariris, they’re hardly all of the Lebanese government coalition, or even on the religious extreme at that.

    And last time I checked, there were more Lebanese Christians behind March 14 than behind Aoun, by a very large margin.

  6. I love me a good bullshit artist.

    SM, you weren’t even tempted to try taking SH down a little?

  7. Yes, we’re for and against everyone. George Bush is a total moron who secretly pulls the strings of every group in the entire world and never gets caught. Oh, and he planned 9/11 before he even became president. Because if you want to attack Iraq, what could be better than making fifteen of the nineteen hijackers Saudis?

    /The truth is out there, man!

  8. Instant Karma says:

    I remember having seen him in a BBC Panorama program a couple of years ago about the Dubya’s presidency. From what I heard of him then it seems that your estimation about his views towards the US are spot on. With journalists like SH who needs Al-Qaeda!

  9. BrooklynJon says:

    Chip,

    Of course! W planned 9/11 to justify the invasion of Iraq. Coincidentally, bin Laden planned 9/11 to provoke the USA into overreacting by invading Iraq. What’s interesting is that, when you think about it, you’ve never seen W and OBL at the same time! Could it be that they are actually the same person? He lives in the White House half the year, Camp David half the year, and a cave in Waziristan half the year.

    How he found a burkha that looks exactly like Karl Rove is beyond me.

    Uh oh, my tin foil hat has fallen off!

  10. What was slightly surprising was how pro-Shia the man was

    SH has been around so long it’s easy to deduce his pattern of operation: He relies on dodgy (sometimes non-existent, perhaps) sources and doesn’t bother to check them out, or if he does it often makes no difference in the final product. The only people he is kind to are his current sources. Your report, SM, strongly suggests that his latest product, accusing the Lebanese president of covert cooperation with the U.S., has primarily Shia sources with axes to grind and is unlikely to be a product of unbiased U.S. intelligence sources.

  11. SM: Of course.

    Some people have become so fixated on infighting within the democratic world (e.g. fighting Republicans or Israel) that they are willing to take the most heinous allies and support the most awful causes in order to advance their domestic agendas.

    And then there are those demagogues and journalists who capitalize on this and lead others down the same distorted and mistaken path.

    @BJ #9: LMAO

  12. America is loaded with SH.s. They are completely at home trashing the U.S and they don’t care where they do it. Overseas, they seem to have a willing audience. Then they come home to rest up. Then another jaunt to another country to trash us some more.

  13. with no doubt, BLA and GWB will be unseparable in the future, dunno if the next archeologists will find BLA’ grave though !

    tin foil hat, isn’t it a cajun custom ?

  14. And so, this turd, Hersh, is well-known and well-paid, and yet his knowledge and opinions are those of a juvenile, or a hack, or a hypocrite. And yet Micheal Totten, who knows far more and actually understands what he knows, and admits the things he doesn’t understand, has to ask for donations, while Hersh has money stuffed up his bum. He who tells the truth is chased out of nine villages.

  15. This is a beautiful turn of phrase…..

    …..”Dude, this is the middle east. The devil’s asshole.”…..

  16. Aside…
    Rest assured, Sandmonkey, the authorities will not come after you as long as you keep on mocking the anti-israeli jews and support the broad lines of US policy.

  17. BrooklynJon says:
  18. Joseph Goebbels would be so proud!

  19. “He of course has no proof or sources to confirm this”

    That is Hersh in a nutshell. He didn’t break Abu Gharib, a soldier that was stationed there sent the pictures out to the press because he wasn’t getting the proper response from his chain of command.

    Thank god the New Left is full of 70 year olds who will all start dying soon.

  20. SandFunkey says:

    Wow, it wasn’t until I read this post that I finally concluded that you are an ignorant moron. You have some good ideals, but you really do know nothing, about anything or anyone. Way to go, qird. Speaking of giving handjobs to the audience, isn’t that what you do here with all the right-wing nutsos that love your blog so much? You’re that “good” and “peace loving” Arab that would give George Bush a blowjob any day, just for the excitement of having a bunch of rabid warmongers inflate their ego.

    Give me a break. You’re not that smart, you’re pretty trite, and all you do is appease these people by telling them what they want to hear: Muslims are evil, Americans are awesome!! Yeah, go you, you “pro-America” you!!! What the fuck does it even mean to be pro-America?

    Oh, and maybe you want to take a look at Hersh’s most recent article: http://www.newyorker.com/printables/fact/070305fa_fact_hersh

    Idiot. I thought I might enjoy meeting you and having a drink with you this summer when I go to Cairo. But, now I’m glad you made clear how much of a douchebag you were before I made a stupid decision to do this.

  21. Actually, the only thing about Abu Ghraib abuse that Hersh broke was the conspiracy theory that the guards were acting pursuant to a policy from Washington.

    He never had any evidence for that, either.

  22. Regarding the “missing 9 billion dollars”. Normally, this charge refers to the Iraqi money that was under U.S. control that was given to the interim government of Iraq for its operations. The U.S.A. has full and complete documentation showing that every dollar of this money went to the Iraqi ministries. What we don’t have is any accounting of what happened after that. You have to ask the Iraqis. Suffice to say, however, that the vast majority simply went to payroll. The Iraqi government has like 1 million people on its payroll, and it spends about 25 billion a year. So 9 billion would pay for several months. The Iraqi government has never had a decent accounting system, obviously. They pay in cash and always have. Iraq has no banking infrastructure worth a damn. And, obviously, the U.S. Gov’t could not hire or create an infrastructure overnight for an entire economy.

  23. “Idiot. I thought I might enjoy meeting you and having a drink with you this summer when I go to Cairo. But, now I’m glad you made clear how much of a douchebag you were before I made a stupid decision to do this.”

    Lol. Awwww, boo-hoo. Sandmonkey, are you sad now this random loser doesn’t wanna share a “drink” with you this summer? You’re probably devestated, and for that I’m sorry. Hey dude, are you even allowed to have a drink??

    If you ever get over your rejection from that anyonymous “Sandfunkey” I’d be more than happy to buy you that drink!

    P.S. Seymour Hersch is as big an ass as our friend Sandfunkey and I LOVE “right wing nutsos”

  24. Once again, we see that the Joos can do everything better than the rest of us, including the betrayal of their own people.

  25. “And, after all, in a country like Egypt, the moral authority of anti-israeli jew is absolute.”

    hahaha, SO true. can’t tell you how many people have quoted anti-israeli jews as the ultimate proof and truth-bringers to me.

  26. #17, Thanks , never heard of that here, should be one invention for “aliens” big brother is lecturing their minds

  27. Sandfunkey is a zionist spy posing as the stereotypical, de-evolving mooslim. Don’t believe his zionist propaganda.
    Hersh selling bullshit to creationists is like selling………

  28. The US involvement in the ME has done more for White Guilt than the reparations for slavery. They absolutely adore whipping themselves into a Mea Culpa frenzy in the hopes of making friends in the ME. It’s rather sad really. It’s like the kid who simpers up to the bully in the hopes of being liked just a little bit because no one else likes him.

  29. MikeK: “Thank god the New Left is full of 70 year olds who will all start dying soon. ”

    Unfortunately they have a lot of little wide-eyed, bushy-tailed groupies being trained to take over.

  30. Regardless of what you think of Seymour Hersh he is infamous in the U.S. for breaking many important news stories. He is known to have connections in the government with people who have knowledge. Even though you may not agree with him, his new allegations that the U.S. is going to war with Iran has a lot of people talking. This, btw, has been a rumor in Central Asia for several years now, as they have witnessed the build-up in U.S. forces along Iran’s border, in U.S. friendly countries. I don’t like it. It bothers me. As for the Bush administration’s meddling, who said, “THe enemy of my enemy is my friend?” The U.S. has always played one hand against the other, hedging all their bets, why is this such a surprise?

  31. Whatever the faults of the US, Hersh’s peace is not factual.

  32. Aardvark EF-111B says:

    Dear Sandmonkey,
    I admit, I don’t like you, I don’t like your background, I don’t like your US-Based Egyptian Immigrants friends, but i agree in every word you say about SH, Heykal, The New Left.
    If you need to know more about The New Left, all you have to is to listen to BBC Arabic.
    I believe all people in this bloh knows what i mean!

    all i can say that USA must not be much envolved with its so-called allies in the region i.e.(AKA KSA, Jordan & Lebanese Factions), they are willing to drag USA & all the region into hell to satisfy the (Trench Psychology) of their own.

    finally, you said [Maybe that's why I always had a soft spot for Bill Clinton.] …suonds good, can you give more datails.

  33. james Wilson says:

    Epictetus- It is impossible for anyone to begin to learn that which he thinks he already knows.
    Amiel- Emancipation from error is the condition of real knowledge.

  34. Gee I hope See More is right. I wanna bomb Iran back to the Stone Age soooooooo bad. I just wish we didn’t have this stupid unwillingness to use nukes. Nukes is what Iran needs. Those Persian assholes have needed extinction for about three thousand years. Maybe four.

  35. Just for the record, Hersh admitted in the past that he simply made crap up. Link:

    http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/people/features/11719/index.html

    Sad, that he has any credibility left.

  36. Aardvark EF-111B says:

    what Scott says is exactly what i meant with [all i can say that USA must not be much envolved with its so-called allies in the region]

  37. It’s funny when people with no argument (“SandFunky”) sling insults, tilt against strawmen, and put words in everyone’s mouth. If you haven’t got the facts, stomp your feet and make noise. Hersh admitted his sole reason for writing is to get Bush at all costs, damn the facts. But I don’t think he knew the college was recording his words for posterity.

    Sorry, SandFunky, I didn’t mean to get back to the actual topic. Now back to yelling about imaginary people saying imaginary things.

  38. Mikek:

    A slight amendment regarding the pictures of Abu garab.

    The guy who took the pictures gave them to the Army.

    The Army had already started the process and had charged people.

    The pictures were released by a lawyer of one of those charged by the Army.

    Hersh’s article just politicised the process and gave the Jihadis another excuse to kill Americans in Iraq and Afdhanistan.

  39. Welcome to our world!… The world of the looney American Left who see evil only when it comes to US.

  40. “rainbows, butterflies and choclate springs sprouting all over.”

    Did you take that from ‘Team America – world police’?

    Actually, the “chocolate springs sprouting all over” come from what Charles Manson promised his Family was waiting for them in the Hollow Earth after they triggered Helter Skelter and fled to a refuge down a pumped-out bottomless spring in Death Valley for it to blow over.

  41. The religion of communism, which presented a complete world view that included the US and Israel as evil forces, was gobbled up by millions of people around the world. The USSR spent decades and billions propping up this totalitarian religion. In some regions and social circles, it was more successful than others.

    With the fall of the USSR and the ascent of some form of capitalist economics even in China and Russia, that religion collapsed.

    What it left behind were a large number of embittered leftists. Like many struggling cultures, these people first tried to deny the obvious, then tried to find something new to rally around in an era that rejected their core beliefs. They were unable to find new positive ideas, and, consciously or subconsciously, they fell back on negative ones: they would hit back against perceived agents of their downfall, because according to their “religious” world view, those powers were evil.

    Who is perceived as “the evil agents of their downfall”? Well, it certainly isn’t Russia and Iraq. No, “the evil agents of their downfall” are obviously the US government, capitalists and Jews, long-time targets of USSR propaganda and demons in the communist “religion”.

    In the mideast, Islamism has rushed in to fill the vacuum, especially among younger people. Leftists and Islamists share anti-US and anti-Semitic leanings. Leftists, having basically lost a world-wide positive agenda, can only gain allies with their negative agenda (anti-Americanism, anti-Semitism).

    The really stupid part is that there are perfectly good historically leftist causes out there that are neither dishonestly anti-American nor anti-Semitic. But many of these causes, including women’s and minority rights in the Islamic world, are obviously taboo because they would alienate Islamists.

  42. @Ken #40: Sounds like paradise — for dentists!
    :-)

  43. an arab girl says:

    “Yes, we’re for and against everyone. George Bush is a total moron who secretly pulls the strings of every group in the entire world and never gets caught.”

    Exactly like Osamah bin Laden…

  44. BrooklynJon says:

    Which is why I’m convinced that Osama and W are actually the same person. What was he doing as the planes struck 9/11? Reading “My Pet Goat”. Osama actually has a pet goat. See? So it’s settled.

  45. Seymour Hersh and Juan Cole: separated at birth, or are they one and the same person?

  46. I_Caca_dau says:

    America is world champion of state sponsored terrorism.
    Nicaragua anyone?

  47. BrooklynJon says:

    No thanks. I’m trying to cut down.

  48. hey Bjon,

    you mean you stopped making cocktail ?

    too bad, I was looking for a dry molotov on ice

  49. Apparently US funds have been ending up in the hands of Al Qaeda, and that my friends is pretty fucking retarded.

    ‘Some US aid distributed to Sunni groups in Lebanon falls into the hands of radical groups, US, European and Arab officials told the weekly magazine.

    “We’re spreading the money around as much as we can,” a former senior intelligence official said, and that has “serious potential unintended consequences.”

    Such money “always gets in more pockets than you think it will,” the source said. “It’s a very high-risk venture.” ‘
    http://www.rawstory.com/news/2007/Hersh_Pentagon_panel_created_to_plan_0225.html

  50. Seymour Hersh got famous breaking the My Lai massacre story from Vietnam. That may be the last almost completely true story he wrote. He’s famous for being a sloppy writer who specializes in anti-American stories which parades gossip and slander as documented fact. For example, when the Soviets shot down Korean Air Lines 007 out of stupidity, Hersh broke the bogus story that the Boeing 747 was actually packed full of spy gear by the CIA. Hersh writes his story first and then looks for facts or gossip or things that pass for facts to bolster it. The lefty media eats his work up because it promotes their agenda.

    Congratulations, Amgad, on figuring Hersh out on first sight.

  51. Tantor, he didn’t break the My Lai massacre story. It was a photo-journalist who took pictures of the civilians (from Time?) and it was people from the U.S. Army who stopped the killing. Did Hersh mention that? If he didn’t is it still completely true?

    If you want to read something crazy look for the Hersh book where he claims that the U.S. Army is actually run by a Secret Gang of Seven from private to general. I have only seen it once, but I swear it exists.

  52. Suzanne says:

    9 billion…. Perhaps he was referring to this?

    “Nearly $9 billion of money spent on Iraqi reconstruction is unaccounted for because of inefficiencies and bad management, according to a watchdog report published Sunday.”
    http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/01/30/iraq.audit/

    Anyway, perhaps that money just flew into Iraqi criminal corruptive hands, no? Why else would you conclude an article with:

    “Both Bremer and the Defense Department — which controlled the CPA — complained that the report did not acknowledge that the Western-style budgeting could not be immediately implemented in a wartime atmosphere.

    Iraqis are well acquainted with official corruption. But Americans should be showing them a better way”
    http://www.thebostonchannel.com/helenthomas/4228758/detail.html

  53. Skeptical in Mohandessin says:

    http://beirut2bayside.blogspot.com/

    here is a review that is worth reading of Sy’s latest jeremiad.

  54. Mikek,

    Ron Ridenhour, a soldier who heard about My Lai, wrote to a bunch of government officials, but didn’t get far. Hersh was the one to break the story in the mass media.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_massacre

  55. Jebus_Cripes says:

    Who cares about the massacre?
    If it were something new to the US military then yeah I’d be shocked and concerned. Unfortunately it is NOT. Most people in the US have been conditioned to believe all that crap about honor, courage, blah blah blah.
    The US will never intervene unless it is something that serves their interest, and they let their military (unemployed ex-con bums) run wild.
    The US has killed far more people this century than any other nation.

  56. Egypeter says:

    cripes – are you ill or just illiterate?

  57. BrooklynJon says:

    Jebus,

    “The US has killed far more people this century than any other nation. ”

    Do you have a reliable source for your incredible statement?

    And, while you’re at it, care to clarify which century you’re talking about?
    1901-2000? 2001-present? 1907-2007?

  58. hi,
    i recommend you read the post of 27/feb/2007. You will learn more about hersh’s ignorance.

    http://beirut2bayside.blogspot.com/

    m

  59. hej,
    sorry the post is dated 26/feb/2007. The sylight zone.
    m

  60. Jebus_Cripes says:

    Yes, when I express my opinion I am either ill or illeterate.
    Bravo, your debating skills are just outstanding.
    But then again resorting to personal attacks is a sign of a great debater.
    And that’s Mr. Jebus Cripes to you.

  61. Jebus_Cripes says:

    Brooklyn John
    No I don’t have a reliable source that would state that.
    But let’s take a look at the conflicts of the century (Sorry I wasn’t clear I meant the 20th century)
    WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam.
    And then let’s look at all the covert ops in Asia, Latin America, etc..
    Now, I wouldnt trust any US source about the casualties of their enemies simply because in the battlefield no one is actually doing any body count. In Vietnam for instance the Americans estimate vietnamese casualties at 1 million, Vietnam estimates it at 4 million. no matter how you look at it thats a lot of people.

  62. Egypeter says:

    Sorry, I just found:

    “The US has killed far more people this century than any other nation. ”

    to be totally laughable, ridiculous and way over the top.

    And then this:

    “The US will never intervene unless it is something that serves their interest, and they let their military (unemployed ex-con bums) run wild.”

    Just proves your ignorance. GOOD, I’m glad the U.S. will not intervene unless it serves their interest! Should the U.S. be intervening on the behalf of Iran, KSA or Djibouti?? U.S. FIRST!!

    “unemployed ex-con bums???” Nice, guy.

  63. You are blaming the U.S. for the deaths that resulted from World War One and Two? How so Jebus? What about Canada and Great Britain? Better yet, how about GERMANY, Russia, Italy and Austria-Hungary. The U.S. entered both of these wars late and did not start them. By blaming the U.S. for the deaths in WW1 and WW2, we can see that you are a someone who loves to bash the United States without a reason. Now go get a history book and start reading…

  64. @Cripes
    “No I don’t have a reliable source that would state that.”
    The best thing about the ‘body count’ competition is you don’t need sources, reliable or otherwise and estimates are frowned upon, unless of course, they replace facts.

    Stalin killed 500 000 000*

    *This figure was pulled out of my ass and I don’t have a reliable souce that would state that.

  65. WWII casualties :

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

    as far as soviet union for WWII quite a great number of deads, about 20 000 000

    Stalin repression about the same number

  66. Jebus_Cripes says:

    @Egypter:
    Great I can call the american military whichever name i want. they are a bunch of goons and they are enforcing america’s version of the truth. Yeah my comment may have been over the top and laughable but who killed more poeple, was it the Egyptian regime or the US regimes?
    seriously tho, you are all paranoid about the islamist threat and how they will destroy the world or are destroying it, but what they have done is really nothing compared to what the US has been doing since WW2.
    Yes the US are supposed to act to protect their interest and whenever they are attacked they should retaliate (With exceptions of course).
    I am assuming you are Egyptian and you should be familiar with the Lavon affair and the USS liberty.
    My point is: America is not right, they are just strong and everybody is going along since they dont want to get their asses kicked and that my friend is tyranny.

  67. anonymouse says:
  68. After reading some of these vial remarks against the U.S. I feel that we should stop all foreign aid and become a isolationist nation. That should stop tongues from wagging. Seems were damned if we do and damned if we don’t. This position should satisfy everyone. No U.S. to blame. If history serves me correctly, I believe the U.S. had much to do with both England and France leaving the African continent. Could be wrong, but…that’s another story…

  69. BrooklynJon says:

    Jebus,

    We’ll have to agree to disagree there. I believe America has, for the last 90 years, been the single greatest force to promote liberty – political and economic – around the world. America has often been the only one willing to stand up to totalitarial ideologies, and therefore has racked up quite a large part of the deaths that have ensued.

    The problem with militant islamism is not what they have done, but what they say they want to do, and whether they may soon have the capability to match their words with deeds.

    And please note, I’m not part of the “Muslims suck” crowd. I count quite a few Muslims – some devout, some less so – as my friends. I have some problems with some tenets of Islam, as I do with all religions that I know of, including my own.

    All I know is that an Islamic supremacist with a nuclear arsenal will make however many tragic deaths occurred in Vietnam seem like a paper cut in comparison.

  70. *cough* bullshit *cough*

  71. Egypeter says:

    Well, there’s nothing really more I can say to you Cripes. You hate America and I LOVE America, sorry. And yes, I am Egyptian, first generation.

    BrooklyJon said it best, once again:

    “I believe America has, for the last 90 years, been the single greatest force to promote liberty – political and economic – around the world.”

    I’m sure you’ll disagree but if you’d stop listening to your Imam and Al Jazeera and as Karen said, pick up a history book (preferably one in English and not Arabic) and read you’ll find that you’re wrong.

    BJ also said:

    “America has often been the only one willing to stand up to totalitarial ideologies, and therefore has racked up quite a large part of the deaths that have ensued.”

    That’s right! The U.S. has saved this world from “tyranny” that you and I live in several times now. America first saved the world when it defeated the Nazi’s ideology next was the Cold War and now it’s the War on Terror. Do you disagree with that?? As long as America is involved the villain will lose EVERY time. You see, it’s all a part of history and Islamofascism will be the next chapter to be defeated.

    God bless the USA!

  72. my cough was directed at Jebus.

  73. Jebus_Cripes says:

    Thank god for snow. Otherwise I wouldn’t get any exercise :)
    @Egypter:
    Sorry you feel that I hate America. I do not.
    How did you come to the conclusion that I am muslim and that I am arab? I am not.
    Perhaps u think when i drew paralles to islamism u assumed so. I have been very interested in the ME conflict ever since Noam Chomsky gave a lecture at my school.
    He was the one who mentioned the lavon affair and the USS liberty, what do you think about that?
    How would you feel if the Americans nuked Cairo? oh wait, you probably wouldn’t be here today.
    Cheers

    @BJ,
    A regime that talks and yip yaps too much doesnt scare me. Pakistan is another muslim state with a nuclear arsenal, but I am not too worried about them.
    Why? The minute they even think about using a nuke, they will turn into a glass parking lot. AND THEY KNOW THAT.
    And since u alluded to Iran, last I heard they are about 10 years away from developing a nuke (or an A bomb) . That gives us plenty of time to find a diplomatic solution.
    Your thoughts please?
    Cheers

  74. Egypeter says:

    Well, that was my mistake to assume who you were but:

    “Sorry you feel that I hate America. I do not.” Really? Did you reread what you wrote above?

    “How did you come to the conclusion that I am muslim and that I am arab? I am not.” Ok, but did you reread what you wrote above?

    And then you mentioned the Lavon Affair, which I has never heard of (but since looked up) and Noam Chumpsky, who is notorious. I think that man is an idiot. So if you’ve gained your interest in ME politics from that man…well, then that puts us on two seperate pages.

    “How would you feel if the Americans nuked Cairo? oh wait, you probably wouldn’t be here today.”

    I’d be pretty upset, but my parents are from Alexandria.

    Cheers – I hope you’re not British, please.

  75. BrooklynJon says:

    Jebus,

    Actually, I wasn’t alluding specifically to Iran. I am concerned, however, that a religious fundamentalist with a bomb is a very dangerous thing. Especially when that fundamentalist believes that his or her religion commands one to spread the religion (violently if necessary), permits rampant killing of nonbelievers, and inculcates a belief of benefits in the world to come for religious fices made in this world. My concern is not about any specific country or regime. In fact, it’s not about any specific religion. Apocalyptic s with a bomb give me the willies, too.

    So show me a situation in which such a fundamentalist may acquire WMD capabilities, and I’ll show you a situation in which preemptive force is not only necessary, but ethically required.

    Incidentally, I do not doubt your assessment of Iran (the 10 years and all). I don’t know that it’s right either. I just don’t know.

    What I do know is that at some point, once there’s a whole lot of radioactive stuff in those factories, destroying them will cause a massive release of radioactive material. If one is an ethical actor, one needs to consider that as well, which can cause you not to destroy the factories at all, or it can cause you to destroy them early, when the radiation would be less.

    And I am also far less sanguine about the security of Pakistan’s nukes than you are. Partly because I think the government is deeply infiltrated with religious fundamentalists. Partly because there is a massive culture of corruption there. Partly because my kids go to school around 2 kilometers away from the spot that I personally would choose as ground zero if I had a nuke and wanted to destroy America as much as possible.

    Finally, your comments about nuclear deterrence are right, to a point. And that point is if a person does not want to die, then they won’t want to do something that essentially ensures their death. Do I really need to point out how Islamic Fundamentalists have, in the last 25 years or so, ably demonstrated that they don’t mind death much? In which case, Mutually Assured Destruction, which kept the USA and the USSR at bay, and later China as well, may not be an effective deterrent at all.

  76. BrooklynJon says:

    “for religious fices made in this world”

    should read

    “for religious SACRIfices made in this world”

  77. on an average day how much money do you get from the neo-cons for writing this crap ? And why aren’t you asking the US to “liberate you” the same way they did Iraq ? Or better yet why haven’t you moved to Alabama where you’ll be more at home. Of course they might shoot you onsite but you hate being an arab so much already what’s a little shooting on the side ? you might come back as a WASP in the next life.

  78. Jebus_Cripes says:

    lol, thats what happens when you make assumptions, I assumed that your folks were from Cairo.
    I am not British. I am Canadian.
    I have criticized American warfare, that doesnt mean I hate America. I criticized the military, but I have a tedency to do so. I am not anti military, but I am anti agression. I know what I wrote, but politics is a dirty game and I was being “dirty”.
    I will retract my statement that the US killed more people than any other nations. I do however still beleive that they are bullies.
    I will not spend time to defend Mr. Chomsky. You are entitled to your opinion, but I get the feeling that you’d call anyone who disagrees with you an idiot.

    Anyways, we’ll agree to disagree and I am glad that we were able to keep it civilized (somewhat ;) )

    I am too tired, good night.

  79. Jebus_Cripes says:

    @BJ
    I see your point now, but I am still not scared :) .
    May be I am too tired. You know what scares me? driving in icy conditions.
    May be if we stopped screwing around in other people’s backyards they wouldnt hate us so much?
    It is possible that they are trying to convert us all, who knows?
    That doesnt change that fact that US troops in A-stan and I-raq are being precieved as invaders and that this type of agression is a perfect breeding ground for the jihadists?
    Like i said i am too tired
    good night (this time i mean it :) )

  80. Egypeter says:

    Right on cripes. We’ll agree to disagree. And I do tend to couple people that I disagree with “idiots.” Lol. I ain’t gonna lie :) but I don’t really mean it and you seem like a nice enough guy.

    You have a good night. Salaam.

  81. Hersh was at Yale less than a month ago and I attended his talk. He was very arrogant and he had many views that i disagree on, many of which you mentioned.

  82. mamapajamas says:

    Jebus, uh… Noam Chumpsky was an idiot in 1969, and hasn’t gotten any better over the years. I remember seeing him on a tv talk show back around then, and thinking what an idiot he was. What he is is an English professor who is very clever in the way he writes. He can always prove he is “right”, even if it means he scuttles his sources. He uses tons of sourcing for his articles so he can prove that he is studied and has “reasons” to believe what he writes. But one specific thing I remember about him on the tv program was when another guest challeneged a statement in one of his articles and PROVED that it was wrong, Chomsky said, “I didn’t say that. So-and-so did.” In other words, Chomsky was “right”; the OTHER guy was wrong.

    I’ve been watching him for years and have noticed that he ALWAYS does that when someone catches him in a lie. THAT is the REAL reasons he uses so much sourcing for his works… so he can claim that he didn’t say that, the other guy did. The fact that he put the information in his article as if it were somehow relevant to what Chomsky was thinking seems to slip by the wayside somewhere in the scuffle. What he does is just string together something from sources and claims it as original work… then blames the “other guy” for the errors.

    Well… I called him an “idiot”, but he might be on to something. He’s gotten rich with this scam.

    Second… your comment, “I am not anti military, but I am anti agression.”… your screed about the “they let their military (unemployed ex-con bums) run wild.” proves that you most certainly ARE anti military. Or at least, anti-US military. You see, what you said about “ex-cons” is a flat-out lie. Maybe it is not YOUR lie (you and your Canadian buddies undoubtedly mutter these things to each other and you repeated it here), but it IS a lie and you do not serve any of your own purposes well to repeat it. There is a VERY tiny number of people with a criminal record in the Army, and NONE of those are for a felony. Only very prior minor misdemeanors are overlooked in the Army, and are NOT overlooked after enlistment. Anyone with a prior record is carefully watched. One army man who got into trouble in Iraq was spoken of in the news as an “ex-con”, but when investigated, that turned out to be a prior conviction for a DUI. And drunken driving was not what he got into trouble for in Iraq… they’d been watching to make sure he didn’t drink. In the other services, ANY prior criminal record is strictly forbidden in the Marines, Air Force, Navy, and Coast Guard… you just can’t get in, no matter how minor the offense.

    As for them being “unemployed”… they ARE employed… by the US. And the National Guardsmen DO have other jobs at home.

  83. BrooklynJon says:

    Jebus,

    Thanks for toning it down, and disagreeing without the hyperbole.

    “May be I am too tired. You know what scares me? driving in icy conditions.”

    Me too, especially when I’m surrounded by SUVs (and me in my itty bitty Prius)

    “May be if we stopped screwing around in other people’s backyards they wouldnt hate us so much?”

    Maybe. But then again, maybe not. Spain joined the Invasion of Iraq. Then they got bombed. Then they pulled out. Then there were several other bombing plots. What about all the animosity directed toward Denmark? For what? A bunch of cartoons? And terrorist attacks in Argentina? Who were they invading? Thailand? Indonesia? The Phillippines? They seem to be pretty much minding their own business.

    “It is possible that they are trying to convert us all, who knows?”

    That seems to be what they say. And it goes along with what we know about earlier periods of Islamic expansionism.

    “That doesnt change that fact that US troops in A-stan and I-raq are being precieved as invaders and that this type of agression is a perfect breeding ground for the jihadists?”

    I’ll go to the grave holding that reasonable people of good faith could have gone either way on the invasion of Iraq. I don’t think the same is true for A-stan. We were attacked by a force that was based in A-stan, and sheltered by the government of that country. A government, by the way, that was a savage, totalitarian tyranny that placed no value on anything other than their own religious fervor. The USA had no choice but to go into A-stan. While that will be a difficult peace to maintain, it is no less necessary.

    But please bear in mind that at the time the attacks on 9/11 were planned and carried out, no hostile American troops were in Muslim countries. They were only there by invitation or by treaty. In fact, a series of Muslim provocations since 1979 pretty much only generated some half-hearted responses, which only heightened their appetite for attacks. I believe that responding to attacks does breed more attacks to a point. But so does not responding.

  84. Egypeter says:

    In #81 “couple” is supposed to be “call”

  85. BrooklynJon says:

    Oh. I was wondering what “coupling someone an idiot” meant, but I was afraid it was slang, and I’d demonstrate my uncoolness if I asked.

  86. Bjon, I agree with you about A-stan, though as far I know, none country could manage to domesticate these tribes ; GB break its teeths in XIXth century, URSS failed in the lately eighties, apparently, OTAN does manage better to pacify them ; if we want something change there, we should rapt all their women and girls and educate them , and bring them back after their “degrees” so that they would not obbey to their macho-men anymore

  87. I ment doesn’t manage better

  88. Canadienne Errante says:

    Where has SM been all week? It’s Friday….last post was Monday…

  89. I_Caca_dau says:

    A-stan is very decentralized which makes it very hard to rule.
    SM is in A-stan

  90. Here is an article on Hersh in Reason magazine in which Michael Young deconstructs one of his ill-informed and unsourced pieces in the New Yorker:

    http://reason.com/news/show/118922.html

    Basically, Hersh talks to people, gets bits of gossip from them, and presents it as fact to fit his pre-written theme.

  91. that was a very interesting point of view. thanks. (not trying to give you a handjob)

  92. Nice!
    But, I reall do not agree with all comments!

  93. Whew! Did someone let “Air America” into the room. It seems pretty rank. Take your American BS back to your American rooms and stop posting this idle talk where others must read it. Everyone has nastiness to despense with, lets try to keep that rank and vile stuff for latrines and cool dusty boardrooms please. It is a turn off. Really, it is. There is too much bullshit.

    Take it down a notch.

    Good job Sandmonkey. I laughed for 10 minutes.