Announcements

1) All the detainees were released today, who then decided to go join the Press syndicate protest/sit in, which the police surrounded and refused to let people out since the morning. This basically meant that they left police custody in order to go to a place where the police would stop them from getting out from. Hmmm…. anyway, the police, after houres and houres, finally released them and they are ok. I had 3 american friends who couldn;t get out, and who called the US embassy, which hung up in their faces. It was a canadian girl who managed to get them out by calling the canadian embassy, which sent a car and got them out. I repeat, the Canadian embassy helped them out and the american embassy acted the way the egyptian embassy acts towards egyptians in trouble abroad- just like punk-ass bitches. Fantastic!

2) For a milli-second yesterday, I was so depressed and angry I actually flirted with the idea of joining the NDP and becoming one of its people because egyptians needed to be punished. But then I realized that I was being retarded and snapped out of it. I would like to thank Alia, Inanities, Forsooth and M. for helping me with that. You guys rock! 

3) My Phone got fixed today. YAY!

4) The DC protest has been a success, it seems. Nora's post here, and her pictures here . Thanks for everyone who showed up, especially Solomon, whose post is here!

5) Tomorrow is the start of the civil lawsuit filed against the 21 websites and blogs . It will be at Magles el dawlah @9. If you are a blogger, please show up.

6) It seems that even the press is on to the sham that was this referendum, which is sweet. However, it seems like Pope Shinoda is continuing his role as the regimes whore (no offense intended towards either copts or whores by the way) by full-heartedly supporting the ammendments and demanding the participation of the egyptian coptic population to go and vote yes. Coptic christians of Egypt, I think it's time you told this man to fuck off. That's my opinion, but that's your business, so you figure it out.

7) I am never, ever, ever, going on World Have your Say again. I am sick and tired of its retarded format. So, BBC guys, next time don't call me, or do and I will give you numebrs of people you can call instead. I just won;t be on your show anymore, ok? 

56 Comments on Announcements

  1. Dave
    March 27, 2007 at 1:59 am

    That’s why I love being Canadian.

    Reply
  2. egyptchick7
    March 27, 2007 at 2:19 am

    Really? The American Embassy didn’t help arrested American citizens?? I was under the impression, and I am not being sarcastic here, that they really would help. And now Canada does help!? This adds to the impressive list of why I would much rather have Canadian Citizenship anyday over US citizenship!

    I would have loved to rally at the NY consulate but I slept in bc Im a lazy ass…hopefully the next protest I will be there.

    Reply
  3. egyptchick7
    March 27, 2007 at 2:21 am

    Wow…another reason why I would much rather have canadian citizenship over my horrible healthcare, dick of a president, embassy abandon american citizenship anyday!

    Reply
  4. vagabondblogger
    March 27, 2007 at 7:17 am

    Okay, the American Embassy closes during emergencies and crisis. They are here to promotoe American businesses, not you as an American, (and to spy.) If you think they will lift a finger for you, then you are deluded. My suggestion is to make back up plans of your own and consult with your company / business, etc. on what their proceedures are. And when a real emergency does arise, they will be more scared than you are, and probably have a panic attack. Besides the cronies are as inept here as they were back in the States during Katrina.

    Reply
  5. nomad
    March 27, 2007 at 7:40 am

    I would not expect better from the french embassy, may-be Switzerland would be ok cause of it political neutrality ; anyway that’s a joke over here “if you got any trouble in a foreign country, don’t ask your embassy to help, go to Switzerland’s… or german embassy” (lately, but I would not bet anymore, till this country is getting a proeminent place in EU and in the world, well, let’s say more in commercial businesses )

    Reply
  6. forsoothsayer
    March 27, 2007 at 8:56 am

    actually the Canadian govt says up front on their passports that if you are a dual national and go to your country of other nationality, the Canadian govt will not intervene to help you, unless a serious humans rights issue arises, presumably. so I’m surprised….

    Reply
  7. Nermeen
    March 27, 2007 at 10:49 am

    lol @ BBC- yeah it sucks :( Yeah the American Embassy in Cairo is useless, when I go to Egypt, I simply put away my American Passport because it doesn’t matter anymore. Whatever happens to you, happens, you only need a good lawyer handy that’s all.
    The American Embassy in Cairo makes me feel 100% Egyptian to the bone!

    Reply
  8. Canadienne Errante
    March 27, 2007 at 12:50 pm

    Okay. (Takes big deep breath.) The issue again. I am glad the Canadian Embassy helped get people out of trouble. The arrests sounded very scary, and I was transfixed while reading Sandmonkey’s account. But I am wondering what Egyptian-holders-of-Canadian-or-American-passports who spend most of their time living outside of Canada or the United States expect from Canada and the United States? Do you guys really think of yourselves as Canadians or Americans, or is your extra passport just a “Get out of jail free card?” Because, I’ll tell you something about Americans born and raised in the USA: they don’t “put away [their] American Passport because it doesn’t matter anymore.”

    I really would like to hear the thoughts of dual-citizens on this issue. Would you, for example, return to the USA or Canada to fight for them, were they in danger? If you could have only one citizenship, which one would you pick?

    Reply
  9. SP
    March 27, 2007 at 12:56 pm

    Canadienne Errante, you might be surprised to know that there were actually people with only American or only Canadian passports at these protests too. And even if some had dual citizenship, your argument sounds rather like a classic American rightist one about “unpatriotic” people with divided loyalties who only want to “use” their American passport. These people still pay taxes, you know? Even if they live overseas. By giving them passports, taking their taxes and allowing dual citizenship, the American or Canadian governments are effectively committing themselves to protecting these citizens. There’s no excuse for not responding to their calls for help.

    Reply
  10. vagabondblogger
    March 27, 2007 at 3:02 pm

    SP – taxes have nothing to do with protection! If that’s the case, then I’d rather have Tony Soprano watching my back than the dickheads who get embassy jobs.

    Reply
  11. Drima @ The SudaneseThinker
    March 27, 2007 at 3:08 pm

    “However, it seems like Pope Shinoda is continuing his role as the regimes whore (no offense intended towards either copts or whores by the way) by full-heartedly supporting the ammendments and demanding the participation of the egyptian coptic population to go and vote yes. Coptic christians of Egypt, I think it’s time you told this man to fuck off. That’s my opinion, but that’s your business, so you figure it out.”

    Dude, obviously Pope Shinoda likes the ammendments. No more risk of MB taking over and forcing their brand of Sharia down the throat of Egyptian Copts!

    As for the whole US/Canada thingy, it’s so much more convinient being a Canadian citizen from what I’ve seen so far. I’ve got American friends who sometimes lie to people and say they’re Canadian just so they won’t get to hear a lot of crap from them about America.

    Reply
  12. Amgad
    March 27, 2007 at 3:40 pm

    Pope Shinoda, like almost all other clerks of any religion, cares only about his community of believers and does not mind supporting oppression if it will favor or protect his community. However, the Copts are left defenseless in face of the state oppression and the disregard of the state of their problems since Shinoda is cozy with Mubarak, and humbly welcomes the little concessions of the despot every now and then. Unfortunately the fear instilled in the hearts of many Copts is so prevailing such that they think freedom and democracy are luxurious ideals that they can not aspire for; lest the monstrous MBs will deny them even the mediocre situation they are in now.

    Reply
  13. Egypeter
    March 27, 2007 at 3:54 pm

    SM – you got it wrong, and that’s probably the first time I’ve ever said that :) Do you have any idea what would await Pope Shenouda if he came out against the ammendments?? No, really, do you? Do you rememember what that dickhead Anwar Sadat did to our Pope when he dared speak out against him a few decades back? House arrest is what happened.

    You’re probably not aware that Pope Shenouda, when he was younger, was a firebrand and spoke out all the time. Now, the almost 80 year old Pope has lost that zeal. After decades of dhimmitude, it’s understandable, no?

    And Drima is right! One thing Copts and Muburak DEFINITELY have in common is their hatred for the Ikhwan. I want those fundemental assholes out of Parliament and out of the country. So, yeah, I’ll put up with the other ammendments, no matter how lousy they are, in order to crush the Ikhwan. And it’s funny, it’s as if these amendments giver Muburak new powers. No, not really, the guy is a dictator, an autocrat. Nothing really stopped him in the past and nothing will stop him in the future. These “amendments” are all just cosmetic anyway…sorta to make things “official.”

    I just thought you were a little harsh on the Pope who has guided my Church through some of the most difficult times in recent Egyptian history.

    Reply
  14. Karen
    March 27, 2007 at 4:47 pm

    SP,

    Who says that people with dual citizentship living overseas pay taxes in Canada? When the Lebanese “Canadians” were rescued last summer, one of the biggest complaints was that many of them lived most of their lives outside of Canada and DID NOT pay taxes here. Someone even suggested the idea that non resident Canadians pay more for their their passports ($500) so that at least they contribute to any future rescues they may require (since they don’t pay taxes here).

    Reply
  15. d00d
    March 27, 2007 at 4:58 pm

    Big props to the Canadian embassy & a big wtf, nice job to the douches at US Embassy, but I still think Canadienne Errante has got a point.

    re: “divided loyalties” & “using” the passport, it happens all the time & isn’t some American rightwinger crybaby thing. I know a French guy who recently got his US citizenship & heard him talking to his friends about it being a “paper citizenship” & how he can stand being around 1 or 2 American guys at a time, but really doesn’t like being around more than that, among other comments of the two-faced variety.
    Dual citizenship’s a great thing, but I don’t think any country deserves or needs paper citizens.

    Reply
  16. Craig
    March 27, 2007 at 5:40 pm

    SP,

    you might be surprised to know that there were actually people with only American or only Canadian passports at these protests too.

    Why? Why would an American be a political protest in a foreign country? And why would such a person expect his/her embassy to help him out when his/her political activities in a foreign country get him/her into trouble?

    I’m just saying, I’d take a pretty fucking dim view (as an American) of Canadians, Mexicans, French, or any other sort of foreigner showing up here in the US to participate in street protests. Regardless of the issue.

    I’m just wondering how people’s thought processes work here, not trying to start any trouble.

    Reply
  17. Craig
    March 27, 2007 at 5:43 pm

    When are they going to fix this wordpress bug with the false random comment moderation? It’s been at least a a year… WTF?

    SP,

    you might be surprised to know that there were actually people with only American or only Canadian passports at these protests too.

    Why? Why would an American be a political protest in a foreign country? And why would such a person expect his/her embassy to help him out when his/her political activities in a foreign country get him/her into trouble?

    I’m just saying, I’d take a pretty fucking dim view (as an American) of Canadians, Mexicans, French, or any other sort of foreigner showing up here in the US to participate in street protests. Regardless of the issue.

    I’m just wondering how people’s thought processes work here, not trying to start any trouble.

    Reply
  18. Egypeter
    March 27, 2007 at 5:59 pm

    Lol. Amgad – your comments are so blatantly bigoted and fairly ignorant. You try and uncleverly spin a combination of half-truths and lies into a wad of bullshit. Assuming you’re Egyptian, you’ll get nowhere insulting the Pope of some 17 million Egyptian Christians for some 30 years. Criticize all you want but no need to be a jerk as I highly doubt you have any idea what it’s like to be a Christian in Egypt.

    And again, I wholeheartedly support Muburak in his quest to crush the Ikhwan. Godspeed Muburak – for the sake of Egypt!

    Down with the Brotherhood
    Up with Egypt

    Reply
  19. forsoothsayer
    March 27, 2007 at 6:05 pm

    foreigners participate in protests because, being from great countries, they feel strongly about us living in a shitty one. besides, their presence prevents the protest from getting too bloody. and many of them are journalists.

    any citizen who lives outside their country of citizenship for a certain time does not have to pay taxes any more. why should they, since they don’t benefit from that government’s services? rescuing isn’t exactly a routine thing. and no country is obligated to do so…laws should apply to the people present in that country at the time.

    as for copts…it is a tough line. still, the amendments will fuck us all equally, so why support them? the patriarch didn’t have to make a statement, if he is so afraid for his life.

    Reply
  20. Nomad
    March 27, 2007 at 7:02 pm

    So Craig you manage to find the tunnel issue, wellcome back :lol:

    Reply
  21. Jillian
    March 27, 2007 at 8:33 pm

    How can you refer to Pope Shenouda in such a way? You always continually disgust me. By the way, it’s amazing you never show us any pictures of you protesting,all this protesting and you’ve never ever been arrested? Hmmm I think you’re just fabricating your “freedon fighter” role from the confines of your Zamalek pied a terre. You are such a poser.

    Reply
  22. Greg
    March 27, 2007 at 8:34 pm

    Everyone knows sandnigger is a liar.

    Reply
  23. Beverly
    March 27, 2007 at 8:36 pm

    The American embassy helped me out of a jam in Cairo once and they were very professional and helpful. Americans don’t leave fellow Americans in harms’s way. That’s an Arab thing.

    Reply
  24. pillbug
    March 27, 2007 at 10:04 pm

    I like World Have Your Say and I even heard the episode about the election. I thought the guy that voted three times was pretty funny, and then the election minister or whatever that came on afterwards was pretty stunned. Who were you on that program? What don’t you like about the format? Just wondering since I enjoy that program.

    I’d be willing to bet the American embassy warns it’s people not to participate in political demonstrations, and its actions don’t surprise me really. I wouldn’t expect my government to get me out of a situation I put myself into, and that’s really the American way.

    I like your blog a lot. Keep up the good work.

    Reply
  25. Amgad
    March 27, 2007 at 10:45 pm

    Egypter

    How typical of a reply yours is: You called me a bigot, an ignorant, put me being Egyptian in question, and accused me of being insensitive, or ignorant again, of the problems of Copts, and at the finale shouted some slogans. :)

    i think you can not call me a bigot because i equally distrust clerics of all religions to handle any earthly issue based on their indoctrinated points of view. Something that i think related to the secularism you are always calling for. The support of some Copts, who supposedly want a secular democratic state, to tyranny and their allegiance behind a cleric in political issues makes me doubt that their calls for secularism, which I welcome, are merely covert attacks toward muslims motivated by religious zeal or personal encounters with Muslim bigots.

    Your cheering of Mubarak drew a smile of pity on my face. Do you really think that mubarak want, will or can uproot the MBs? By the way they earned their places in the parliament with more than 3 million votes. The measures that mubarak used to hinder their voters resulted in the loss of 14 human lives, but this does not seems to bother you much, does it?

    It is really sad how fear can make people cheer oppression.

    I am sorry, if you felt offended by how I referred to Shinouda, though I could not find any personal insult to him in my comment. The pontifices of the Egyptian church play politics; in politics no one is sacred or revered.

    Reply
  26. Janet
    March 27, 2007 at 11:38 pm

    This blog has been in the crapper lately. Same old, Same old.

    Reply
  27. Craig
    March 27, 2007 at 11:52 pm

    So Craig you manage to find the tunnel issue, wellcome back :lol:

    Thanks, Nomad! Been back on the blogs one day and I already got called an “Israeli” by a Palestinian. I must be doing something right, I guess :P

    Reply
  28. Egypeter
    March 28, 2007 at 1:55 am

    I’ll say it till the day I die, Muburak vs. Ikhwan – I will take Muburak EVERY time!

    Jumbling together and lumping all “clerics” of all religions together is plain bullshit too by the way. You can keep telling yourself that, that’s fine. But comparing Pope Shenouda to, let’s say, the clerics over at Al-Azhar is pretty laughable to me. When was the last time Pope Shenouda put out a fatwa Amgad??

    Reply
  29. SP
    March 28, 2007 at 7:14 am

    If you have a US passport or even permanent residency, you still pay US taxes even if you live and work overseas, FYI. And why on earth should a US or Canadian citizen not be able to walk on a pavement next to or stand on steps with Egyptian activists without being pushed and shoved and have their movements restricted by state security thugs, and their cameras snatched if they try to take pictures?

    Beverly, read SM’s post – the US embassy did not come to help its citizens when asked, in this case.

    Reply
  30. nomad
    March 28, 2007 at 7:19 am

    Craig, who cares ? at least your still a man and not a “monkey” :lol:

    Reply
  31. Craig
    March 28, 2007 at 9:27 am

    SP,

    And why on earth should a US or Canadian citizen not be able to walk on a pavement next to or stand on steps with Egyptian activists without being pushed and shoved and have their movements restricted by state security thugs, and their cameras snatched if they try to take pictures?

    Because that can arguably be called espionage. For the nationals of one country to be engaged in anti-government activities in another is inappropriate at best, and it’s usually illegal too. It may even be against US law for private citizens to engage in subversive activities in other countries.

    I have no complaint against dual-nationals participating in political activities in both of their countries. I don’t even have a problem with people who are solely American doing so… so long as they don’t expect the US government to come to the rescue when they get themselves into trouble.

    Reply
  32. Craig
    March 28, 2007 at 10:02 am

    By the way, SP:

    If you have a US passport or even permanent residency, you still pay US taxes even if you live and work overseas, FYI.

    That’s an untrue statement. Please don’t give us “FYI” that is incorrect :)

    There are millions of people who are citizens of the US by virtue of being born here who have spent almost their whole lives in other countries and have never set the US government a dime in tax money. Same with the children of ex-pats who are US citizens but have never even set foot in the United States. As far as actual Americans who live and work overseas…. I calculated some years ago that the US government was skimming a total of between 60 and 70 percent of my salary in taxes. Are you seriously trying to argue that Americans employed abroad pay income taxes to both the US government and their host government? That would be insane. Nobody would ever work abroad, if that was the case. You couldn’t pay people enough to compensate for getting ganked by TWO governments.

    Reply
  33. Amgad
    March 28, 2007 at 11:46 am

    Egypter

    You can choose whomever you see best to lead the country, protect the interest of your community, protect your individual interests or follow any revered ideology of yours. All these are legitimate motive for voting or giving political support. But what you should not do is to support oppressive measures against fellow human beings because of your fears, interests or ideology. This is blatantly immoral and unjust.

    Furthermore the justification that you, and other fellow Copts, give for your calls and support of banishing and incarceration of member of the MB are based on archaic brutal concepts. For example
    1- citing violence perpetrated by deceased members of the group 50 years ago, or some of its international chapters, as justification for persecution of individual members who has absolutely no relation to these specific acts of violence implies your endorsement of the concept of “Genus Responsibility”.
    2- Defending state security actions in which hundreds of fellow humans peoples are indiscriminately arrested for months implies your approval of “Collective Punishment“
    3- Condoning torture and abuse implies acceptance of “extrajudicial punishment”
    4- Finally citing the intentions of the group as a justification for all the crimes perpetrated against its members goes beyond the most barbaric of laws. It reveres the accepted legal norm of requiring both an action AND an intention to constitute a crime, to a pervert one of saying that only an intention constitutes a crime.

    As for the comparison between the clerics of religions, they are unelected and impregnated with religious doctrines one of these is enough to disqualify them in politics.

    Egypter, excuse me but I think that the Church position in Egyptian politics for these 30 years was typically Egyptian. They forwent their high moral and ethical standards and followed the Egyptian proverbs: “kiss the hand that you can not bite” and “as long as the fucking is far from my ass, it does not matter”. Ironically they get some of the fucking every now and then form the tyrant they support and from the extremist that this tyrant is supposed to be fighting.

    Reply
  34. Amgad
    March 28, 2007 at 11:48 am

    instead of reveres put reverses

    Reply
  35. Nomad
    March 28, 2007 at 1:29 pm

    “Are you seriously trying to argue that Americans employed abroad pay income taxes to both the US government and their host government? That would be insane. Nobody would ever work abroad, if that was the case. You couldn’t pay people enough to compensate for getting ganked by TWO governments”

    depends if your sent in “mission”, or if you just find a job in a foreign country

    in the first case, it ‘s your original government which collects taxes, in 2nd, you pay taxe in the land where you works, though, it’s up to you to keeps your insurances in your original country, then you have to pay volontary charges ;
    anyhow, as far I know for my country that’s the way it works

    Reply
  36. Canadienne Errante
    March 28, 2007 at 3:32 pm

    For the record, I live in the USA and I would NEVER participate in a political protest here, even though I am encouraged to all the time. The last one I was invited to was in support of “undocumented workers” , meaning illegal aliens caught and presumably about to be deported. As a legal alien, I thought it would be really stupid to protest American police enforcing American laws.

    I don’t think the USA is as great as Canada, but that is for Americans to sort out, not me.

    Reply
  37. Egypeter
    March 28, 2007 at 4:08 pm

    Amgad, you said: “But what you should not do is to support oppressive measures against fellow human beings because of your fears, interests or ideology. This is blatantly immoral and unjust.”

    Thanks Amgad I appreciate the morality lesson.

    Amgad said: “Furthermore the justification that you, and other fellow Copts, give for your calls and support of banishing and incarceration of member of the MB are based on archaic brutal concepts.”

    “Archaic brutal concepts?” Is that right Amgad? Are we to just forget all of the terrible sectarian violence committed by the Ikhwan in years past? All because they claim to have “renounced violence” as a guise in order to get into the political realm? I, for one, am no chump and do not fall for their bullshit claims of “moderation” and I hope other Egyptians aren’t stupid enough to fall for it either. All you have to do is just listen to them and listen to what they say carefully. This is the same organization that said a Malaysian Muslim has more right to govern Egypt than an Egyptian Christian. WHAT?!! These words came from their mouths. Now, just think about that for a second. And you’re gonna tell me this is just a Coptic issue?? This issue is paramount for all Egyptians; Copts, women, Bahai’i, true Muslim moderates – basically anyone who’s doesn’t want to see Egypt go down the path of Wahabbism.

    Just to answer your four points:

    1. The Ikhwan ideology today is the same damn ideology from 1928. And Sayyid Qutb’s teachings have never changed and never will and at it’s core is the most fundemental brand of Islam around. Like I said, don’t fall for their claims of “moderation.” Hamas thinks they’re moderate too.
    2. Egypt does this to seculars, apostates, infidels, kafrs and converts on a fairly regular basis. So, yeah, I have NO problem with Muburak throwing the MB in jail. Not at all.
    3. Yes, same answer as #2
    4. Huh? Intent is not a crime in Egypt? What “legal norms” are you talking about exactly because “intent” sure as hell IS a crime in my country!

    Anyway, look Amgad, unlike you, I long for Egypt to have a secular democracy even though I’m an ultra proud and practicing Coptic Christian. You see, I have the ability, as do other Christians, to seperate my religion with the way my country SHOULD be governed – Jesus actually calls for it. And this is, sadly, something that is a totally foreign concept to most Egyptians. And that’s why Egypt can’t currently handle democracy. I’ve come to the conclusion over the last several years that it’s a battle of Muburak vs. Islamists right now and until those options change, I WON’T be supporting “democracy” in Egypt.

    Reply
  38. Amgad
    March 28, 2007 at 7:23 pm

    The state must LEGALLY hold people accountable only to what they AS INDVIDUALS DOOOOO. Any deviation from this basic and, in my opinion, self evident norm is unjustifiable, unjust, and immoral. This is the only lesson I can give.

    What I referred to as archaic brutal concepts are “Genus Responsibility”, “Collective Punishment“ , “extrajudicial punishment” and “prosecution of mere intent”. You can check the first three in an encyclopedia. I am not a legal expert but your arguments are very close to these archaic and brutal concepts. Of course the adjectives archaic and brutal express my opinion; another person might see them as modern, considerate, civilized, or practical.

    I had to make a name for the forth one to describe the attitude of : “Thanks for keeping an electrode in this guy’s mouse because this guy has the idea of assaulting me in his mind, so please go on electrocuting him”

    As for intentions, I doubt that there is any society on earth that holds people accountable for their intentions as long as theses intentions do not lead into punishable actions. Simply, any individual can have all kinds of aggressive, pervert and retrograde ideas in his/her head and not be disturbed by the society as long as he/she does not commit an illegal action. If your country is different then I guess your policemen are very busy prosecuting people who fanaticise while masturbating as sexual molesters or even rapists.

    About supporting democracy in Egypt: Democracy is a form of government, the best one in my opinion; you may or may not favour it depending on your own point of view. If you think that a dictatorship is better than a democracy for the time being, it is your opinion, you are entitled to it and you can defend it as you like. What strikes me is how a proud practicing Christian, and a citizen of a free country, supports large scale widespread human rights violations in his homeland. I can understand this from a pragmatic atheist, or a bigoted fanatic, with utter disregard of fellow human beings but not from a Christian……..

    Reply
  39. Dave
    March 28, 2007 at 7:23 pm

    Canadienne Errante:

    If you believe in a cause why should it matter where you protest at. Obviously you didn’t believe in the support of “undocumented workers”, so why would you be there. I had worked in the States for 5 years. I didn’t show up at every protest I saw. There were couple of issues I was passionate about that I went out for.

    If you are making the argument that a country should be left alone to solve their problems. You sure are posting in the wrong blog for that.

    Reply
  40. Turkish
    March 28, 2007 at 8:38 pm

    I can understand how many people are conflicted about this. As mentioned above, my ideals are against this kind of corruption of democracy. But people should also realize that we do live in the real world, and people cannot afford to live in dictatorships because they are held back. In my opinion, people should do this but also announce that they do it so that the world would know what people have to do in order to make themselves heard. This would make it practical as well as symbolic.

    Reply
  41. Craig
    March 29, 2007 at 4:45 am

    Dave,

    I had worked in the States for 5 years. I didn’t show up at every protest I saw.

    In my opinion, if you were a visitor in the United States and you showed up at any political protest *at all* and got caught, you should have been deported. This isn’t your country. It’s mine. You don’t have any right to be involving yourself in our internal politics.

    I’m not sure what US law has to say about this, but I do know that it’s illegal (and people have in fact been imprisoned for it) for foreign nationals to be involved in the US electoral process. I assume it’s also illegal for foreign nationals to involve themselves in public street demonstrations against the US government.

    Furthermore, I assume that is the law in EVERY country. Including yours. Guests are not expected to behave as enemies of the state.

    Reply
  42. nomad
    March 29, 2007 at 7:40 am

    isn’t the protest right written in your constitution alike the freedom of speach ? people in your country have the right to say or to write anything, even bullshits without being pursued in court, then the less right for guest workers should be the protest, I mean when it is not a violent demonstration ; anyway in that case they turn short, your police is expeditive :P

    Reply
  43. Canadienne Errante
    March 29, 2007 at 12:05 pm

    I wish more people would comment on their “paper citizenship” in Canada or the USA (a great phrase that I like better than “citizenship of convenience”). However, the thread has changed to whether or not a foreigner should protest in another country, so let me address that again. And I am not trying to piss off Americans here. Half my family is American. We fought on both sides of the War of Independence, and my uncle was torpedoed in the South Pacific in WW 2. So I am writing with all due respect to the Americans who read SM.

    One thing that the rest of the world dislikes and fears about the USA is its tendency to meddle with other sovereign nations. Meddle, meddle, meddle. Gone are the days when it fussed and stewed whether to get involved in other peoples’ wars (e.g. WW2, so thank you Japan). Gone are the days when the great capitals of the world were innocent of McDonald’s. Et cetera. Now Americans just assume that the USA should get involved in Darfur, for example, as though it were Darfur’s mom, sorting the kids out. (“Now, now, now…”) Although why anyone thinks American military involvement in Africa would be different from American military involvement in the Middle East… I digress.

    Well, my dear American cousins, when you get personally involved in the protests of a foreign nation (especially when you feel privileged doing it in a “you can’t touch me, I’m in an AMERICAN” kind of way), you are carrying out American meddling on a micro scale. Yes, I know this thought might make you angry, but do think about it for a minute. You might be a deep blue Democrat and think you are completely different from a blood red Republican. But guess what? When you start throwing your “you can’t touch me” weight around in a foreign country, you look exactly the same to us, the rest of the world.

    Yes, I am sure that there is something Americans can do to help a cause they care about in another country without assuming on their “you can’t touch me, I’m an American privilege.” They could do it at home. Me, I was opposed to war in Iraq. So I protested the idea–AT HOME IN CANADA. I attended a vigil. I went to a teach-in. I raised my voice. One heck of a lot of other Canadians raised theirs. And Canada didn’t go to war in Iraq.

    American citizens have a lot of power. But I really do think they should use it at home. They understand the American system better than any other, and they would probably do more good here than out there. At very least, they could send cheques.

    Reply
  44. Dave
    March 29, 2007 at 12:16 pm

    Canadienne Errante:

    Thank God majority of the US government or people don’t think like the way you do in the States. Especially when it comes to non-violent protests. If the US government thought like that, hell, change it’s name to Egypt.

    I am completely confused. You claimed to be a Legal Alien in the States, which means you are not a citizen of the US. I am assuming you are working in the States like I did. But you claimed US to be your country. So what was the difference between me claiming US to be my country in those 5 years I lived there.

    In those 5 years I lived and worked in the States, paid my taxes etc. I know I significantly contributed to my society at that time. All things considered that was my home. As long as I didn’t break any laws and protesting peacefully is not breaking a law, why the hell would have US deported my ass?

    Reply
  45. Dave
    March 29, 2007 at 12:50 pm

    The US probably does have the right to deport my ass but the point I am trying to make is that is the great thing about US, Canada etc. You can stand up and say something is unfair. Even to the government and not be considered Enemy of the State.

    Reply
  46. Dave
    March 29, 2007 at 12:53 pm

    Damn You Canadian Errante,

    I agree with pretty much on everything you said on post #43. Now I am looking all hypocritical. I wish the world was just black and white.

    Reply
  47. Canadienne Errante
    March 29, 2007 at 9:47 pm

    Sorry, Dave, didn’t mean to confuse you. I’m from one of those border families where people go back and forth every hundred years or so. Since I was about to shake my finger at Americans (what could be more Canadian?), I wanted to establish that I actually have family reasons to care about the USA.

    Yeah, I work in the USA and I have my papers in order, but I am 100% Canadian and if there were a repeat of 1812 (God forbid) I would scootle off home and suit up to fight against my old Yankee neighbours. (And probably get CREAMED, but, you never know, Vimy Ridge.) But meanwhile, I just politely ignore invitations to go and protest the removal of illegal aliens, U.S. troops in Iraq and other family feuds. The next time I want to protest the USA, I’ll go home and picket a U.S. consulate. But of course Americans can protest their own government all they like. Go for it, I say. Protest it, fight for it, whatever they like. Me, I’m just a guest here. It ain’t for me to say.

    But (just between you and me, Dave) don’t you find it weird when Americans trash their own country or carry “Death to America” signs? I mean, when everyone else in the world trashes the States (from the comfort their own non-USA homes), that seems kind of normal. But when Americans trash America, well, that seems kind of treasonous to me.

    Reply
  48. Canadienne Errante
    March 29, 2007 at 11:14 pm

    Hey, my long involved explanation didn’t stick! In short: I’m Canadian, but I have one of those border families in which members cross over every hundred years. So I have a lot of US relatives, ancestors and I care about the US. But, of course, being a Canadian, I bleed red and white. I’m working here only short term.

    I applaud all Americans who want to protest in America. That is just the place they should do it. However, I think guests like myself should keep out of their family feuds.

    Don’t feel bad, Dave. That’s the price of being Canadian. You have friendly feelings for the USA, but you are not the USA. (Just between us, speaking as Canadians, aren’t you creeped out by anti-American Americans? It just seems so treasonous. I mean can you imagine an anti-Canadian Canadian? Well, one who didn’t have a French name, you know what I’m sayin’.)

    Reply
  49. BrooklynJon
    March 30, 2007 at 6:22 am

    CE,
    “Just between us, speaking as Canadians, aren’t you creeped out by anti-American Americans? It just seems so treasonous.”

    You’re darn tootin’ it is!

    BTW, I was in Israel just before the pullout from Gaza (and what an massive success that’s been!), and there was tremendous pressure to put a ribbon on your car indicating whether you were for or against pulling out. I refused to put either ribbon on my car ‘cus I’m not Israeli. I ended up in a bunch of arguments because of it. But, as a plain Jane American citizen, I felt it wasn’t my right to express my opinion about an Israeli policy while on Israeli soil. My $.02.

    Reply
  50. nomad
    March 30, 2007 at 8:04 am

    I mean can you imagine an anti-Canadian Canadian? Well, one who didn’t have a French name, you know what I’m sayin’.)

    Go Quebec, go :lol:

    Reply
  51. Jason
    March 30, 2007 at 12:14 pm

    Nearest I could find on the whole subject, from the FEC, Foreign Nationals Brochure:
    http://www.fec.gov/pages/brochures/foreign.shtml

    “The Prohibition
    The Federal Election Campaign Act (FECA) prohibits any foreign national from contributing, donating or spending funds in connection with any federal, state, or local election in the United States, either directly or indirectly. It is also unlawful to help foreign nationals violate that ban or to solicit, receive or accept contributions or donations from them. Persons who knowingly and willfully engage in these activities may be subject to fines and/or imprisonment.”
    “The “Green Card” Exception
    An immigrant may make a contribution if he or she has a “green card” indicating his or her lawful admittance for permanent residence in the United States.”

    Draw your own conclusions.

    I disagree with dual citizenship and bailing ungrateful paper citizens out of the fire when they’ve clearly shown through decades spent back in their mother country where their true loyalties are.

    Anti-Canadian Canadians? There’s a few out in Alberta I think.

    Reply
  52. Canadienne Errante
    March 30, 2007 at 6:57 pm

    Sorry to bust your ignorant bubble, nomad, but the PQ is down for the count. So Quebec isn’t going anywhere, which is to its own benefit and for the rest of Canada’s. Somebody remind me who nomad is again?

    Reply
  53. Nomad
    March 30, 2007 at 7:19 pm

    sorry Canadienne errante, I am not Segolène, neither De Gaulle, but I appreciate your inquiry about me, and for my sake, I don’t care

    Reply
  54. Nomad
    March 30, 2007 at 9:02 pm

    by the ways, as far as “errante” you must be nomad :lol:

    Reply
  55. Karen
    March 30, 2007 at 10:32 pm

    Who are you Nomad and where are you from? :)

    Reply
  56. Nomad
    March 31, 2007 at 7:13 am

    ask BJ

    Reply

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