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Thursday, 26 Apr 2007
Well, that's what the majority of the egyptians and pakistanis believe! Interesting, no?
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April 26th, 2007 at 9:55 am
Yep, ’cause muslims really need someone from the outside to make them fight amongst each other…!
Hamas and Fatah? US aggitation, clearly!
Sunni and Shiite Iraqis? Once again, US aggitation!
Iran vs. gulf states? The US again, clearly!
Kurds and the rest of Turkey? Must be the US, no doubt!
Obviously, if there was no USA, the entire muslim community would be one big happy family!
Riiiight….!
April 26th, 2007 at 9:59 am
I do not think that the people in these countries know anything about what US troops actually do in Iraq and Afghanistan.
I don’t think they are better informed by the media than we are in Europe and America. And even our media don’t tell us anything positive about the US troops (like the fact that the elected Iraqi government wants the troops to stay, as does the elected Afghani government) or negative about the previous situation (like what Saddam’s government did to Kurds and Shi’ites).
I find it surprising that so many respondents disagreed with the majority.
Most people I meet in Europe believe that the terrorists speak for the Iraqi population. Why would people who live in Indonesia see it differently? They have worse information sources, if anything.
April 26th, 2007 at 10:30 am
Scary.
April 26th, 2007 at 12:13 pm
Andrew, ultimately it doesn’t matter if their beliefs are based on perception or reality, because in the end it is what they believe. News sources wherever you are are going to present the angle they want. Fox News presents their case, the others theirs. Some in the West consider the US action in Iraq and Afghanistan as liberation, others don’t. However, the opinion of greatest importance is that of the Muslims worldwide, no matter what tools they are given to form this opinion and it is quite obvious that their view of Western action on their land is negative. No matter how much screaming the pro ” liberation ” supporters scream ” we are trying to save you from yourself ” which is of course grossly arrogant, in the ears of Muslims, they will not accept the message. Forgetting the obvious Islamic implications of infidels soiling their lands, touching their women etc. it stands to reason that short of total success, many Muslims would rather deal with their own problems rather than be told what is best for them by any outside, non-muslim entity.
We are all fed propaganda and many are sheep worldwide, no matter the what the subject matter is. It is those who form their own opinions based on their own research who are more in the know then those who make little effort to truly be informed.
They want the West off their land. That is the overwhelming sentiment. While the casualties of innocent Arabs is heartbreaking, one positive ( forgive me for calling it this ) from that report is that Muslims are finally realizing that the likes of AQ and their ilk are savages who do not think twice about slaughtering a bus load of Muslim children in order to kill one infidel.
Change can only happen from within and it is time to being part of the reason why they are not able to see beyond the West’s stomping on their hallowed ground.
April 26th, 2007 at 12:14 pm
Ah, yes. It’s good to hear from our close friends the Egyptians.
April 26th, 2007 at 12:53 pm
Frenchman,
“we are trying to save you from yourself ” which is of course grossly arrogant”
If only the world had been more arrogant with the Germans in the 1930’s. How much carnage would have been avoided?
I’m curious about seemingly contradictory opinions like the people favoring sharia and also favoring freedom of religion. Yet sharia does not allow one to convert out of Islam, and permits the Jews and Christians to exist only under dhimmi status, and forbids other religions outright.
I also dig how 80% of Egyptians would support warfare against America. Can we stop sending our $2 million a year now?
Andrew,
“our media don’t tell us anything positive about the US troops (like the fact that the elected Iraqi government wants the troops to stay, as does the elected Afghani government)”
The media is mostly comprised of left wingers. One recurrent theme in left-wing political thought is a disdain of the average person, and therefore a distrust of democracy. The fact that these are democratically elected governments which are asking us to stay does not register at all at the New York Times, I assure you. I strongly suspect they would be more comfortable with a tyrant who granted homosexuals the right to marry and who provided universal health care than with a democratically elected government that did not.
April 26th, 2007 at 12:53 pm
Dear Andrew Brehm
Do you really think there is a common muslim care the shit about what USA is (really) doing in Afghanistan or Iraq, ….as if the left-obcission media is not enough!
The whole Islam world looks like a giant mainfestation of paranoid syndrome with exacerbating transition from inferiority complex to Chauvinism.
The real problem is the Islam is in general still stuck in the middle ages, The radical mindsets of marginal communities cut off from the world like tribal-afghansitan sectarial-middleeast overwhelms all others, Can anyone tell me why????
April 26th, 2007 at 1:07 pm
There’s more to it than that SandMonkey. It’s not that simple.
April 26th, 2007 at 1:48 pm
The US rescued Muslims in Kosovo. We’re trying to undermine Islam? I can only speak for myself but the more I hear about Islam the sillier it sounds. We’re in it for the oil? There’s no law against buying oil. If us buying oil offends or undermines Islam, well, then don’t sell it to us. If they were so secure in their beliefs an evil American shouldn’t be able to shake that belief. If I lived in an Islamic country I’d probably have to be a Muslim. Here in the US you can be anything you want. We even let liberals be liberals. That’s how evil we are. We have already a lot of ranting liberals a bunch of ranting Islamists won’t make a difference. It’s sad that a little over a billion people on this planet need a lot of ritual to make it through the day. And there’s the rub. The experts claim that ten percent of Islam is into Islamofacism. Ten percent of a little over a billion is a little over one-hundred million. It looks to me that Islam has it’s task cut out for it, perhaps Islam should undermine Islamofacism. Now if one says this to an Islamist their counter arguement is not unlike that of a liberal’s. It’s to go back to Adam and Eve, list every negetive thing every civilization has ever done, blame it all on the US and finish with at 8pm this evening half way through a state dinner Bush is going to lie. Christians were on a crusade five hundred years ago and that’s why, today, I’m going to blow myself up. Well, that’s awfully silly. Oh, wait, I forgot, they do this after they walk into a crowded market. The silly thing is, they mostly blow up Islamists. Islam blowing up Islam because Americans buy oil. Here ya’ go Iraq, Saddam’s dead and here’s your freedom. Thank you very much America and if you’ll excuse me I have to blow myself up. Here ya’ go Afghanistan, the Taliban’s gone, you’re women can now go to school and they don’t have to walk around in a tent. Thank you very much America and if you’ll excuse me I have to go blow myself up. I’m confused.
April 26th, 2007 at 2:02 pm
Seeking to weaken and divide the islamic world? Come on! It’s divided already. And weak - industrially, economically (except for oil), socially and militarily.
What we are determined to avoid is the forced unification of the islamic world by an aggressive minority of zealots: a new jihadist caliphate. Which would then arm itself to the teeth and attack us.
It’s all about jihad. Not islam - unless you see islam-jihad as one and the same thing.
April 26th, 2007 at 2:14 pm
Interesting article, thankyou.
It would also be interesting if American Muslims answered the same poll.
April 26th, 2007 at 2:25 pm
“Some in the West consider the US action in Iraq and Afghanistan as liberation, others don’t.”
Who cares?
The Kurds consider it liberation, and according to election results so do the vast majority of Iraqis. If uneducated lefties think that their opinions should be heard and not the Kurds’, the lefties should argue with the Kurds about who is right.
“They want the West off their land.”
It is NOT their land. Afghanistan is Afghani land and the Arab invaders of Al-Qaeda had no right to make Afghanistan into their private little colony. That’s why the Northern Alliance fought them.
The Afghanis now want the foreign troops to stay and whether Muslims or lefties call it evil occupation or not doesn’t change the moral status of the American presence there.
It’s the same for Iraq. Iraq belongs to the Iraqis, Kurds and Arabs. It does NOT belong to all Arabs or non-Iraqis Arabs or the Ba’ath or Al-Qaeda or any other terrorist group.
They do not want the Americans off “their” land, they want the US off other people’s land.
They do not want the West off their land, they want the West off everywhere. But that doesn’t mean we have to give in. We are better than they are, and so are the Iraqis and the Afghanis.
And when the Iraqi president and the Afghani president tell the world that they support the American efforts in their countries, I am fine with that. And if some uneducated leftie calls those efforts an evil aggression I know whose side that person is on, and it’s not the Iraqi or Afghani side.
April 26th, 2007 at 2:31 pm
“They want the West off their land. That is the overwhelming sentiment.”
Is it really?
I remember when the US invaded Afghanistan, and they said to us, “Why did you abandon us?” This was a bit of a shocker to me. The reason the US left Afghanistan alone after the Afghans defeated the USSR was because we thought they did not want us there. The terrorists, and the Taliban for sure did not want us there, but Afghanistan is more than terrorists and Taliban.
In a certain sense, the Iraqis don’t want us there. That is, they want their own sovereign, liberal, just government in control of their country, which happens to be exactly what we in the West want for them, as well. But, if the question is phrased as something like “when should they leave?” the answer become something like “as soon as those murdering scum are gone.”
And, oboy, do the locals in the Mideast like us when we come to visit, and do they seek our attention when their governments run amok!
I am sure that the terrorists and the supporters of Islamic imperialsm, and those who dream of a Caliphate, complete with black-robed, helpless women and bad water, want us out of the Middle East, and all the rest of the world, as well. But those people are not all of Egypt, and they are by no means all of Pakistan, either.
April 26th, 2007 at 4:09 pm
Hey all your ” righties ” let’s remember how many of your very own leaders are calling for withdrawal and as for the ” left ” media, come on, for the first two years of the war in Iraq it was all pro Bush, suddenly now that the tides have changed, it is the left wing media.
As for the critisim on my statement ” they want us off their land ” did any of you actually read the article and stats that SM linked us to ? I am Jesus, talk about ignoring the facts to push your own views. Here is what your statements equate to ” your too stupid and backward ass to know what is best for you, so shut the fuck up and let us superior, more advanced people’s tell you what and how to think !!!!! ” It’s so proposterous. Keep in mind I am talking about the entire middle east here not just Iraq. Would I live like they do, hell no, but just because our society is what we deem ” better ” doesn’t mean it is for them. I have had many conversations on this very site with Arabs who like many, if not most of the rules imposed by Islamic law. I questioned some of the laws out of curiosity and am even guilty of poking fun, but different strokes for different folks.
Please don’t try to equate the desires of the Iraqi and Afghani govt’s with the desires of the people. Both of these impant govt’s represent a small minority. How does one explain the Iraqi govt defense of AJ in Iran ? Sounds to me like they are playing both sides. Those govts are not going to bite the hand that is feeding them.
I would, figuratively, bet my bottom dollar that if there was a vote held in Iraq, in particular asking if the US should stay or go, the majority would say go. There would, of course be a minority of US teet feeders who would say stay. They would say thank you for killing Saddam but go.
Iraq and Afghanistan, remember, are merely new chapters in an old book of US meddling in Middle Eastern affairs. Why do we have bases in Saudi ? Is it because we love the Saudi’s so much we want to protect them ? Why can’t we give the Islamists what they want ? Because were more worried about looking like we have lost the fight ? Maybe if we approach it with a ” fuck you were tired of this shit….. ” Take the steam out of their message. Trade with them like we trade with China.
Maybe when we stop thinking of them medieval imbeciles who can’t think for themselves and let them get on with things, even if it means civil war, which would do nothing but take the target off of our back anyway.
BJ sorry man, the German people, by in large, were quite happy with Hitler, so while the US did save Europe and the world from that madman, we weren’t saving the German people ( short of the German Jews ).
April 26th, 2007 at 4:21 pm
Well this poll basically confirms what I fear the most - Egypt is not so slowly transforming into Saudi Arabia.
You know Egypt is screwed when its people start aligning themselves with the terrorists from Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. And this is the same Egypt that the State Department keeps calling one of America’s best friends in the region. Do they have a clue?? LOL.
Fundementalists need to stop dreaming about a return of the Caliphate, as it obiviously will NEVER happen. Andalus will NEVER return to Islam and Sharia Law is about as compatable with democracy as Hitler’s National Socialism movement!
Egypt, wake the “f” up already before it’s too late!!!
April 26th, 2007 at 5:26 pm
I’m glad to see attacking civilians is not as popular as I thought it was. It will get really ugly if this turns into a “If they do it we can do it” type of war like the Pacific. If it turns into a huge war I am going to laugh at the reaction of all the chest thumping muslims when we bring back all the weapons we don’t like to use.
“I need fire bombs, tanks that shoot fire, flamethrowers and some napalm stat! We are going to go old school with these chumps.”
April 26th, 2007 at 5:34 pm
I’m not sure I follow the comments in this thread. The US *does* seek to undermine Islam. And we do NOT intend to leave Muslim “lands” ever again. Islam is making war on the US and has been for 30 years. We didn’t bring the fight to Muslims, they brought the fight to us. And it’s a fight that Muslims cannot win. The only variables are how many Muslims will die before the rest give up the struggle, and if Islam will survive at all. “Undermining” is not even the issue. Islam must change, or Islam must be destroyed. We can’t afford to be tolerant of the intolerant, anymore, and Muslims have been proving for 1400 years that they cannot co-exist peacefully with non-Muslims. There are brief periods of tolerance, punctuated by extended periods of religiously inspired violence and oppression. Islam cannot be contained in “Muslim lands” anymore. That’s not an option in the 21st century. And as long as Islam is exporting violence to non-Muslim countries, it (the religion) is a threat to those countries. I don’t know what Europe plans on doing, but the US is not going to stand idle while it’s under attack, again. No matter what people think about Iraq (I’m not very happy about what the US has done in Iraq, myself) the next major attack on Americans is going to draw an *unbelievably* violent response from America. And it will have the complete support of the American people. Anybody who thinks otherwise doesn’t have a clear view of American public opinion. We’ve had enough. If we have to kill millions to win this war, we will. We’ve done it before.
April 26th, 2007 at 5:44 pm
it stands to reason that short of total success, many Muslims would rather deal with their own problems rather than be told what is best for them by any outside, non-muslim entity.
It also stands to reason that when those problems affect outside non-Muslim entities, those outside non-Muslim entities are going to speak their mind.
They want the West off their land. That is the overwhelming sentiment
The West is occupying Afghanistan and Iraq, not the other Muslim lands. It’s really absurd that non-Afghan and non-Iraqi Muslims presume to speak for the people of other countries. Not that this is limited to Muslims, by the way.
April 26th, 2007 at 5:44 pm
divide for reigning
“The disorder increases in Iran, but it is exactly there the objective of the Americans! Indeed, they seek to weaken this potentially dangerous mode islamist but not to reverse it because it is rather powerful and useful to weaken Sunnites which control the oil resources of the Arab countries. The objective of the Americans is there to there too create a certain disorder to weaken this area as a whole. Iranian mollahs is thus at the same time harmful and useful. The Americans do not seek a priori to make the war (high intensity) in Iran, nor to replace mollahs by a mode which would be favorable for them. The government of George W. Bush, in collaboration with her adversaries of the Democratic party, is on the point of making a pact with these idiots… useful to their own weakening and that of Sunnites. The strategy of the disorder was already applied in Iran to the end of the Seventies: the Americans, under the presidency of the Democrat Casing, supported the ousting of the Shah and the seizure of power by Khomeyni.The leaders of the Démocrate party do not accept that friendly strong modes can be maintained with the capacity as it was the case formerly. They prefer to support the seizure of power by opponents anti-American (it is paradoxical logic), but they weaken them by creating some, disorder in the country.” cf Iranr esist
April 26th, 2007 at 6:55 pm
casing, =Carter
April 26th, 2007 at 7:42 pm
Did anybody bother to ask the respondents if they desire Islamic unity if that means Shia becoming Sunni, or vice-versa?
Crazy idea? Well, if you asked an assortment of Christians if they felt Muslims were seeking to divide them you’d might get a majority yes answer. But that wouldn’t mean they’d wish to unite themselves all together into some religiously-motivated monster, either.
April 26th, 2007 at 8:11 pm
http://showmetherules.blogspot.com
April 26th, 2007 at 8:23 pm
Craig, ” Islam is making war on the US and has been for 30 years. ” Very dangerous statement indeed.
It’s radical Islam, not Islam and attack the attackers.
And we have been after their oil for 30 years, so whose at fault ? Let’s just say the Middle East never had any black gold, would it not have been treated like we treat Africa, where millions have died in those 30 years with civil war, regime change, genocide etc. Take the strategic interest away and the story would be very different. Bush senior played both Iran and Iraq in their war. This angelic America, why did they pick on us sentiment, is simply wrong. Has propaganda on the other side enflamed the anti-US sentiment, done for also selfish agendas, turned things to where they are today, absolutely, but the US has never just been standing there minding it’s own business.
As for how to react to the threat, you don’t spray bullets into a crowded market to kill one person. No one questions the war on terrorism, but instigating things by doing the above does nothing more than create more terorrists and this could very well end up leading to the very war of all wars desired by the Islamists. You act as though the is a finite number of terrorists out there. They are like cockroaches and will survive.
As for the non-radical Muslims of which I know many, who hate the radicals, they are on the perifery of our ” crusade ” to erradicate radical Islam and many non-combatants die. We can argue forever at whose hands, but as the ” occupying force ” 2 -10 will blame us no matter what, a scary figure.
Again, we have troops in Saudi, why ? to protect the Saudi’s, I don’t think so and sorry but as dumb as many seem to think that the street Arab is, they see it.
No one ever seems to think about, spending those wasted hundreds of billions on securing US borders. Preventative measures, after all is it not these shores that we profess to be so adamant on protecting ?
Let’s not forget that we said the same thing, we will win even if it means killing millions, about Vietnam and North Korea.
April 26th, 2007 at 8:53 pm
Anna
American Muslims have not answered this particular poll, but numbers of them have repeatedly voiced the opinion that jihad (violence) is never acceptable for any reason and that ijihad (inner struggle) is the proper goal of every Muslim.
Many American Muslims are committed to an American interpretation of Islam. Not Sunni, not Shia, not Wahhabi. More tolerant and open. Something like Islam in the time of Andalusia.
The mass of Muslim immigrants to Europe are unskilled workers. The American experience is different. Most Muslim immigrants to the US are highly educated and assimilate into the middle or upper-middle class — business owners, doctors, lawyers, professors.
By the way, I used to be a professional statistician, and I say that the aggregation of answers to the questions is flawed (US trying to divide Islam: definitely/probably) and that the presentation of results is biased (not all the percentages are shown). The group that did this poll is lying to you with numbers. The teachings of Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed (PBUT) all agree that we are to worship God, not Mammon, but we have made a god of statistics and swallow numbers faithfully without question.
If a statistical presentation gives you anything less than the whole picture, it is a lie. Do not believe anything it says.
April 26th, 2007 at 8:56 pm
No, we’re spreading democracy. Undermining Islam will just be icing on the cake.
April 26th, 2007 at 9:00 pm
Frenchie,
I’m trying to catch up with this thread, having been working all day, and I see this little nugget:
“for the first two years of the war in Iraq it was all pro Bush, suddenly now that the tides have changed, it is the left wing media.”
To which I say, “Whoa, Nellie!” (Ignoring all subsequent posts.)
You’re kidding, aren’t you? The media bias towards the left in America is pervasive and enduring. It did not start in 2005 or 2004. It’s been that way for a long, long time. How bad is it? Very bad. Don’t trust me. Here’s a link:
http://www.newsroom.ucla.edu/page.asp?RelNum=6664
It’s bad. And it’s a lot worse in Europe, for a variety of reasons. And it’s highly unlikely to get better any time soon.
April 26th, 2007 at 9:10 pm
Frenchie,
So much to disagree with you about, so little time…
“BJ sorry man, the German people, by in large, were quite happy with Hitler, so while the US did save Europe and the world from that madman, we weren’t saving the German people ( short of the German Jews ).”
Which is pretty much my point. Other than the 11 million civilians they purposely killed in death factories, the Germans felt the Nazis were pretty much okay. So…..we should have just let them keep killin’? We stopped them at exactly the right time? In retrospect, we should have come in with guns blazing before 1939?
Alex, I’ll take “C” please, and save the 11 million civilians, even though I’ll bruise some German egos in the process.
The darndest thing about democracy is that it allows 51% of the population to be tyrants over the other 49%. That’s where constitutions and judges come in. But if that fails, the world either puts an end to it (humanitarian, but antidemocratic) or not (pragmatic but hardly courageous or high-minded). The west chickened out between 1933 and 1939. I had assumed that pretty much everyone of good faith had concluded that it had been a big mistake. Lately, I’m not so sure, which means that we’re pretty ripe for it to happen again.
(Cue AJ, stage right, with a big, mysterious package.)
April 26th, 2007 at 9:18 pm
Craig,
“the next major attack on Americans is going to draw an *unbelievably* violent response from America.”
Yeah, right. We’ll catapult Nancy Pelosi over without her makeup. Have you taken a look at the Democratic candidates for President? I’m glad you have hope. I’m not so sure.
April 26th, 2007 at 9:28 pm
Maybe, just maybe, the US is trying to make areas in the mideast livable for human beings, since so many people who are finding refuge in the USA are sucking up all of the good jobs. Especially in the sciences. I know this ticks off a whollleee lot of Americans.
April 26th, 2007 at 9:37 pm
#21, Solomon2. “Religiously motivated monster”, I like that.
April 26th, 2007 at 9:54 pm
Oh, and as a grand finale to my tantrum?
Whats with this American Flag burning by Muslims IN AMERICA!!
Well, then why don’t they get out!! They don’t like it? Leave! Go to freaking Antarctica for all I care.
April 26th, 2007 at 10:09 pm
Frenchman,
Craig, ” Islam is making war on the US and has been for 30 years. ” Very dangerous statement indeed.
You think I shouldn’t say it, then?
It’s radical Islam, not Islam and attack the attackers.
That’s what I sued to believe. I don’t, anymore. Radical Islam and mainstream Islam are one-in-the-same. It’s non-radical Muslims who are the minority.
PS-I think yours was the dangerous statement. Underestimating your opponent is usually a fatal mistake, during wartime.
And we have been after their oil for 30 years, so whose at fault ?
Oh, I see! They don’t WANT to sell their fucking oil! They just want to leave it in the ground and eat sand! We’re forcing Arabs to sell their oil to us!
Sarcasm aside, even if we were “exploiting” Arabs for oil - how does that justify mass murder?
And what does that have to do with Islam?
How much oil does Afghanistan have, by the way? And what’s the percentage of the population there that is Arab?
How about Pakistan?
Let’s just say the Middle East never had any black gold, would it not have been treated like we treat Africa, where millions have died in those 30 years with civil war, regime change, genocide etc.
I’m sorry, did I miss the part where you explained how all of Africa’s problems are America’s fault?
Just so you know, though, the US has intervened in sub-Saharan African crises far more often than we ever did in the middle east. Crack some books if you aren’t old enough to remember.
Take the strategic interest away and the story would be very different.
Yes. Yes it would. The US would be much more brutal in it’s war fighting in the middle east, if there was no oil there. Threats of closing the straits of Hormuz are Iran’s best defense right now, for instance.
Also, if there was no oil, Russia and China wouldn’t be in the game playing for the other side, would they?
Bush senior played both Iran and Iraq in their war.
So? Iran should have been invaded by the US in 1979, during the hostage crisis. It’s what Iran deserved. I always advocate people get what they deserve, you know. The sooner the better. If the US had responded as it should have then, I don’t think terrorism would be the issue in the ME that it is today. The Iranians were the first non-Palestinian terrorists, and they were the first to go after Americans. That shouldn’t have been allowed to stand. It set a bad precedent that many others have followed. It proved that the US will bow to terrorism.
This angelic America, why did they pick on us sentiment, is simply wrong.
I didn’t say anything about “angelic” - you put words in my mouth, and then called criticized me for something I didn’t say. Not the first time you have done that, Frenchman. In any case, there is no justification for the mass murder of innocent civilians. None.
Has propaganda on the other side enflamed the anti-US sentiment, done for also selfish agendas, turned things to where they are today, absolutely, but the US has never just been standing there minding it’s own business.
We aren’t talking about sentiments. We are talking about mass murder, hostage taking, head chopping, hijacking, etc.
As for how to react to the threat, you don’t spray bullets into a crowded market to kill one person.
What does that have to do with anything? Is that what you think the US has done?
I suspect we will do just that, next time, though. I think we are done with trying to treat our enemies humanely, in the middle east. It clearly doesn’t work. It’s seen as a weakness to be exploited. I suspect everyone would be a lot better off, including Iraqis, if the US had come down on the country like the hammers of hell on day one, and kept up the pace until there wasn’t anybody left alive who wanted to fight.
That’s what we’ll do next time, I’m thinking. That’s standard war fighting doctrine anyway, and the Bush administration violated it. These problems always occur when politicians run wars.
No one questions the war on terrorism
Pretty sure that’s what you were just doing, Frenchman. Explaining why the terrorists were justified in the things they have done the last 30 years. Explaining why the US deserved it.
We didn’t. And the war will be over when the last Muslim who believes that attacks on teh US for grievances, real or imagined, is either dead or in prison. Or is too scared to try to make good on their beliefs.
but instigating things
I don’t want the thugs “instigated” - I want them dead. Dead as in DEAD. What part of the idea that we kill our enemies - kill them DEAD - is escaping you, Frenchman? The objective of a war is to destroy the enemy. Destroy means kill. In case you didn’t know. War is about killing people. You complain a lot about Iraq but it seems to me that the main difficulty we’ve had there is that we have tried to do the things you are suggesting right NOW. We’ve been trying to win hearts and minds, and wage a sensitive humanitarian war and such shit like that. I guess the neocons have also forgotten that the objective of war is to kill enemies your enemies, eh? Kill as in dead. In the ground. Dead people don’t commit terrorist acts. Dead people don’t raise terrorist children. Dead people don’t talk shit on blogs.
by doing the above does nothing more than create more terorrists and this could very well end up leading to the very war of all wars desired by the Islamists.
Muslims do not have the capacity to wage a “war of all wars” on America. That’s why they resort to terrorism. Do you really think there are going to be Muslim armies taking to the field against US troops, any time soon? That’s just pablum for the Arab masses. Feeding their irrational pride.
You act as though the is a finite number of terrorists out there. They are like cockroaches and will survive.
I don’t agree. Terrorism doesn’t exist in a vacuum. When the conditions that allow terrorist organizations to thrive change, the terrorism will be gone.
Complacency won’t get that done. We weer complacent in the face of terrorism for 30 years (as I pointed out) and the attacks got progressively worse and more frequent.
Yours is a recipe for disaster.
As for the non-radical Muslims of which I know many, who hate the radicals
How well do you know them? I know many Arabs who aren’t batshit crazy but they are all Arab Christians. And even some Arab Christians are batshit crazy. Like Twosret. My best friend is a moderate Arab Muslim. But even she supports Hezbollah and HAMAS and other groups. It’s only Al Qaeda she has a problem with.
Hezbollah murdered friends of mine. When my best friend, a moderate Arab Muslim, supports an international terrorist group that has murdered thousands of completely innocent human beings, including friends of mine, I have to think that the pending doom of the middle east is going to be truly horrific.
I ask again, how well do you know these “moderate” Muslims, and how honest do you think tehy are with you about their true beliefs?
And do you not read arab blogs? Do you not see how many well educated and seemingly “moderate” Muslims support terrorism? Honestly? You don’t see that?
Think about what’s going through the heads of the illiterate masses, when top University Students support terrorism, Frenchman.
they are on the perifery of our ” crusade ” to erradicate radical Islam and many non-combatants die.
Oh well. They should have thought about that before they started advocating terrorism. It’s really annoying to see the same Arab who rejoice whenever there is a terror attack on Americans, or any other kind of violence on Americans, complaining when Americans do violence to Arabs. Same with the Arabs who advocate attacks on Israeol but tehn whine and cry when Israel retaliates.
It’s childish. And it’s foolish, to think you can do violence to others without them responding. It’s particularly foolish for the weak to attack the strong and think they will get away with it. And arrogant. I suppose they think they have God on their side and that God will allow them to prevail against impossible odds.
God doesn’t have a good track record when it comes to intervening in human affairs, though. I suspect he will allow us to settle matters on our own, as he always has before.
Which means Muslims are in for a long hard ride. But we can make it shorter and cleaner by switching to a “total war” footing, and abandoning this foolishness that the neocons have been engaging in.
Snipping a bunch more of your justifications for terrorism.
No one ever seems to think about, spending those wasted hundreds of billions on securing US borders. Preventative measures, after all is it not these shores that we profess to be so adamant on protecting ?
We can’t secure our borders. We would have to deport every Muslim in the United States, and ban Muslims from entering the United States.
And that wouldn’t be good enough. A terrorist is perfectly willing to lie about his religion if it will enable him to wage his jihad more effectively. We’d have to ban all travelers from all Muslim countries.
And that wouldn’t be enough, either. Wed have to ban entry to anybody who has dual citizenship in a non-Muslim country. And that wouldn’t be enough, either. What about all the third and fourth generation children of Muslim immigrants in Europe? Australia?
We can’t do it. We can’t secure our borders from thsi sort of attack. And even if we could it would be immoral and illegal (a human rights violation) to even attempt such measures.
Again, I say, yours is a recipe for disaster. Nobody ever won a war by fighting defensively. And the US won’t win that way, either.
Let’s not forget that we said the same thing, we will win even if it means killing millions, about Vietnam and North Korea.
We did? Or did you just pull that out of your ass?
We did win in Korea. We won a complete victory. The North Koreans weer defeated in detail and UN forces were at the Yalu River (border with China) because the North Korean troops fled there.
Then China got involved directly. In order to “win” we would have had to defeat China. And I don’t think anybody ever intended to try and do that. We never sent enough troops to North Korea to even *attempt* invading China. If that was on the table, we’d have drafted 10 million men. Or more. We drafted 13 million in 1942, right after pearl harbor. No, there’s no indication the US ever was fighting for more than the stalemate we got, in Korea. And we did get what we wanted. South Korea is still there, and doing fine. If we had “lost” - that wouldn’t be the case.
As for Vietnam, we never intended to win that war. We were mertely attempting to prop up teh South Vietnamese government. Remember what I said about fighting wars defensively. You can’t win, if you aren’t even trying to win. If we’d intended to defeat North Vietnam instead of just defending South Vietnam, we would have invaded North Vietnam. Right? But, we didn’t. We never crossed the DMZ.
And in closing, I find you to be a very annoying guy, Frenchman, but at least you veer from the standard party line on Sandmonkey’s blog which is refreshing
April 26th, 2007 at 11:41 pm
Frenchman,
“Again, we have troops in Saudi, why ? to protect the Saudi’s, I don’t think so and sorry but as dumb as many seem to think that the street Arab is, they see it.”
Didn’t we pull our troops out of KSA three years ago? They’re now based in Qatar, at Qatar’s request. And we had our troops in KSA to preserve their kingdom from attack, substantially because they kept the flow of oil going to our SUVs, regardless of how morally repugnant we find them. Or course, part of the reason they kept the oil flowing all these years is so that we would defend them if necessary, regardless of how morally repugnant they find us. Personally, it’s why I drive a Prius and live three miles from work. I find the Saudis too morally repugnant to drive an SUV. It’s bad enough I send them $5 a month in gas money as it is.
April 27th, 2007 at 12:02 am
BJ, not going to get into it with you on the media and you have Fox to balance things off. During both the run up to the war and the first couple of years thereafter, not one media outlet, not one had the balls to contest the Bush administration. This slow creep of opposition to Iraq from the majority, of which I was long ago a minority, is due in large part to the media finally having the balls to speak out. Suddenly, now that light is being shed on what has since the beginning been a miserable disaster, the American people are finally coming to their senses. So I fail to see how, short of obvious examples like the NY Times that all of the media is liberal. I remember being incenced at CNN and MSNBC for sticking their heads so far up the Bush administrations ass.
On the Hilter issue, please remember that you used this example to explain away the need for outside forces to intervene in internal matters. The minute Hitler stepped foot in another territory, then ” charge “!!!!!!!
I know we have been down the ” who’s deserving road before “, if the Jews warranted protection, why not Darfur ? Obviously I am not expecting an answer because I know what yours will be, in fact most of our cards have long been put on the table. Just wanted to point out how you were using the Hitler argument. If you used it to justify the Desert Storm, I would have found it applicable.
April 27th, 2007 at 12:24 am
Craig, ” That’s what I sued to believe. I don’t, anymore. Radical Islam and mainstream Islam are one-in-the-same. It’s non-radical Muslims who are the minority. ” This is an opinion but factually absolutely dead flat wrong. Indonesia and Malaysia put together make up the largest Muslim population in the world and I lived in the part of the world for 23 years and my parents still do. Yes a couple of bombings in Bali, but the radical vs passive Muslim ratio is massively in favor of passive law abiding kind gentle Muslims. Have you reall met any Muslims ? I mean besides the odd run in. Have you ever spent any time with any ? You see these foaming at the mouth idiots on TV and assume the entire population is that way. By the way, the very host of this site is Muslim, maybe you should consider this before flinging generalizations about a population you know very little about.
” Oh, I see! They don’t WANT to sell their fucking oil! ” Don’t you think the demand side of this equation has more impact. If we didn’t want it so badly, we could simply ignore them. After all isn’t us trying to make the change so that we don’t have to rely on them !
” We can’t secure our borders. We would have to deport every Muslim in the United States, and ban Muslims from entering the United States. ” Let’s be reasonable here. So far the only serious attacks in the US have been performed by known terrorists here temporarily. ” Kill em all I say ! ” I have numerous Arab friends here who suffer because of your ilk, who see a turban and scream for blood. Yes I know the difference !
” We did win in Korea. We won a complete victory. The North Koreans weer defeated in detail and UN forces were at the Yalu River (border with China) because the North Korean troops fled there ”
Sorry last I checked North Korea is still communist, a temporary win doesn’t count. You could say the same for Iraq ” Mission Accomplished ” China’s intervention, if we are to evoque the notion of Allies was completely justified. We pulled out and North Korea kept their position.
” As for Vietnam, we never intended to win that war ” That’s a good one ! LOL ! I won’t bother pulling out all of the govt rhetoric for you on that one. Prop up the South Vietnamese govt ? Sounds familiar doesn’t it ? You lost South Vietnam, so you lost.
Craig I find you equally annoying, but will commend you on your sheer tenacity. I do appreciate your taking the time to provide so much feedback, obviously driven by your anger towards me. I would feel less oblidged to argue so hard but you have come across as a blatant biggot and this is difficult to swallow. If you were arguing against the invasion of your own land then it would be justified but you are arguing voraciously for your invasion of someone else’s. Fortunately you are a minority that cannot or refuses to make a distinction between radical Islam and Islam. I can’t imagine where we would be if the majority felt like you.
April 27th, 2007 at 3:51 am
Frenchman,
This is an opinion but factually absolutely dead flat wrong. Indonesia and Malaysia put together make up the largest Muslim population in the world and I lived in the part of the world for 23 years and my parents still do.
Point?
By the way, if you spent so much time in Indonesia then why did you make the fallacious comment in the other thread about gun control, comparing violent crime statistics in Asia to those of America, and dishonestly trying to claim the difference was bcause of access to guns? You know better.
And that’s why I find you so annoying. You are intellectually dishonest and you have been since the first time you appeared on this blog a year and a half ago. I haven’t ever seen you make a claim that you hadn’t deliberately distorted. You aren’t a journalist, by any chance, are you?
Yes a couple of bombings in Bali, but the radical vs passive Muslim ratio is massively in favor of passive law abiding kind gentle Muslims.
I suspect that’s due to the aforementioned cultural tendencies towards non-violence. I haven’t noticed any difference in the attitudes and opinions of east asian muslims compared to arab muslims. The difference is in their willingness to act on tehir beliefs, not in the beliefs themselves. So, I’m not buying it. East Asian Muslims are just as “radical” as any other sort. It shows up in the polls, and it shows up on the blogs. They just aren’t a violent. So, you get no backtracking from me on my original statement.
The only Muslims I’ve met in large numbers who are for the most part “moderate” are Iranian ex-pats here in the US. And I would guess that’s because whatever reason they had for leaving Iran, it left them deeply disillusioned with Islam as a way of life. If not as a set of beliefs.
Have you reall met any Muslims ? I mean besides the odd run in. Have you ever spent any time with any ? You see these foaming at the mouth idiots on TV and assume the entire population is that way.
Why do you ask me questions and then provide the answers for me? That’s as bad as when you put words in my mouth and then condemn me for opinions that are not mine.
Did you miss the part where I said my best friend is an arab Muslim? Or do you just assume I am lying?
If you think I’m lying about that, you will think I am lying about any other proofs I provide, so I won’t provide any. Believe what you wish.
By the way, the very host of this site is Muslim, maybe you should consider this before flinging generalizations about a population you know very little about.
I’ll say what I damn well please. And as far as generalizations, you’ve certainly made your share of generalizations about me personally in this thread, haven’t you? Even in this comment you are stereotyping me as an ill-informed bigot. You don’t know me at all. You don’t know anything about me. And yet here you are, accusing me of making ill-informed assumptions.
That’s your asswipe persona striking again, right? Did you get punched in the head a lot while you were growing up?
Oh, I forgot, you grew up in Indonesia where annoying people don’t get punched in the head much
Snipping a bunch of your insulting commentary and moving on to the end…
If you were arguing against the invasion of your own land then it would be justified but you are arguing voraciously for your invasion of someone else’s.
My country was invaded and attacked. The attack on September 11th 2001 was just as much an act of war committed against my nation as the attack on Pearl Harbor, and our response to it is every bit as justified.
Fortunately you are a minority that cannot or refuses to make a distinction between radical Islam and Islam.
Now, I am beginning to suspect you don’t even live in America. Either that or you’re a shut-in. I haven’t even heard anybody use the word “radical” as a prefix for Islam in years, except on the news. Nobody is making that distinction in the US, anymore, except when they have to be politically correct.
So whatever your scenario is for the nightmare that happens if the majority fo American’s don’t differentiate between Islam and radical Islam, you better kick it in, because that’s the fact of the matter. And if you lived in the US, you’d know that.
What’s your deal, really? Why don’t you tell us? Do you think it’s fair for you to be misrepresenting yourself and your background on this blog?
I can’t imagine where we would be if the majority felt like you.
April 27th, 2007 at 4:11 am
Okay, you two. Back to your corners to cool off!
April 27th, 2007 at 4:20 am
This poll is bullshit. “Global public opinion” polls are generally bullshit. First off, this poll clearly totally underrepresents or ignores Egypt’s significant Christian minority, which is generally very pro-American, and most secular Muslims. Furthermore, there was another poll that came out earlier this year that found more anti-Americanism in Germany and France than in Egypt! (As in the respondents who thought America was a threat to world peace, and in terms of positive and negative views of America). I think it was a Gallup or BBC News poll. So let’s not try to pass this one off as the reality when clearly polls are turning up unreliable and inconsistent results.
April 27th, 2007 at 5:31 am
[...] Comment on The US seeks to undermine Islam by CraigAs for Vietnam, we never intended to win that war. We were mertely attempting to prop up teh South Vietnamese government. Remember what I said about fighting wars defensively. You can t win, if you aren t even trying to win. … [...]
April 27th, 2007 at 6:18 am
It is possibe that the poll would have different results had it been conducted in strict anonymity. Going into people’s homes is unlikely to produce complete sincerity. ME is a volatile region and I suspect that many people give the answers they think the pollsters want to hear.
Even so, I’m surprised that so many want to live shackled to the sharia law. I don’t understand what is the attraction of this medieval set of rules. Can someone enlighten me?
April 27th, 2007 at 8:27 am
40. Eva:
I can’t and frankly, I don’t care all that much anymore…
What I do care about is their idea that everyone else should bow and accept their point of view without protest.
The arab/muslim population around the world argue that the west is acting in an empirialistic manner and are trying to force our views onto them.
I dare anyone to compare the number of westerners living in islamic-dominated countries with muslim/arabs living in western countries. I dare anyone to compare the number of western ex-pats’ demands for equal treatment with muslim/arab demands for their adopted western countries to cow-tow to their non-democratic views.
Unfortunately, a completely scewed tendency to self-criticism together with a politically correct acceptance of other cultures disregarding any of their faults is the major sickness of the western world today, and unless we’re carefull it’ll be the end of us, and ironically, the very tolerance that we’re trying to uphold…
April 27th, 2007 at 8:34 am
“Please don’t try to equate the desires of the Iraqi and Afghani govt’s with the desires of the people.”
Why not? The elected government is the legal representative of the people. And if the legally elected government says X and the terrorists say -X, I assume X is true. I have to. It’s my duty and it is what I owe to Iraq.
“Iraq and Afghanistan, remember, are merely new chapters in an old book of US meddling in Middle Eastern affairs. Why do we have bases in Saudi?”
To protect a (nominal) ally from invasions. Didn’t you know that?
“Maybe when we stop thinking of them medieval imbeciles who can’t think for themselves and let them get on with things, even if it means civil war, which would do nothing but take the target off of our back anyway.”
Then stop thinking of them as such. They can have their civil war. But “they” will unfortunately involve many innocent people. The Kurds don’t want to be involved in an Arab civil war. And neither do many Arabs.
“BJ sorry man, the German people, by in large, were quite happy with Hitler, so while the US did save Europe and the world from that madman, we weren’t saving the German people ( short of the German Jews ).”
You don’t know how dictatorships work. Germans were happy with Hitler, but they were a lot happier with what replaced him. They were just too stupid to realise that the alternative was better. (And when anybody tried to tell them, the Nazis killed him.)
The 30 or so percent that supported and voted for Hitler were probably very happy, as were many Sunnis under Saddam.
April 27th, 2007 at 11:10 am
#32, Craig. Religiously Motivated Monster, I love that expression, I just wanted to say that. Anyway, you forgot to mention to fwency fwenchman (nice observation that he may not even be in the US, maybe in that well with the 12th Imam?) the classic example of behavior modification. Japanese Imperialism was cured by two atomic bombs. It caused an immediate reversal in behavior. All of Japan said, ‘imperialism, what was I thinking?’. And then, we all saw it on television a few years ago when the Prime Minister of Japan went hand and hand with President Bush to take a tour of Graceland. Japan, the land of the rising sun, what a classic example of success along with South Korea. The US heart Japan and South Korea.
April 27th, 2007 at 12:14 pm
Craig, Wow, please elaborate on how I have been misrepresenting myself and intellectually dishonest. I have explained my background many times on this board. I hold two nationalities and have lived around the world. This gives me a very wide perpective but I NEVER stray from my beliefs, especially not to win an argument. I have and always will remain consistent. For the last 15 years, I just happen to be living in the US but have family worldwide. I defend France when it is necessary, I defend America when it is necessary ( which I do regularly, but because many conversations I have on this forum are with Americans, this is never necessary ). I defend Asia because I spent 23 years of my life there. I defend Islam because I grew up surrounded by Muslim, all of whom have been nothing but welcoming and gracious and it incenses me when generalizations are made. You see not everyone see things from one perspective only. My opinions evolve.
Because this is obviously an exercise in futility, I will only address two points you make in your post, because I simply can’t help myself.
1 ) ” By the way, if you spent so much time in Indonesia then why did you make the fallacious comment in the other thread about gun control, comparing violent crime statistics in Asia to those of America, and dishonestly trying to claim the difference was bcause of access to guns? You know better. ”
Seriously here, I don’t see your point or a correlation between this topic and the other. How was I being intellectually dishonest ?
Gun violence is next to zero in Asia and my view is that it is because most of Asia’s ( as a whole ) gun control laws are the strictest in the world. How was anything I said in this post to you on this subject conflict with my statements in the gun control debate ????????? Please assist.
” Now, I am beginning to suspect you don’t even live in America. Either that or you’re a shut-in. I haven’t even heard anybody use the word “radical” as a prefix for Islam in years, except on the news. ”
I know your intention is to try and make me look like a fool, but this statement is not really worthy. You know very well what I mean. OK, so I will use Islamist instead.
The fact that you don’t see the very real distinction between radical Islam and true Islam doesn’t mean that the rest of us don’t. Terrorism is far too general a statement. The world has many non- Muslim terrorists, in France and Spain, for example, there are Basque seperatists etc etc etc, who bomb. What about the IRA ? Terrorism is a tactic not a ethnic or religious identifier. So the fact that many in this country link the world terrorists with Islamic fundamentalism, does not mean the rest of us do.
If I missing your point please clarify. How do you make the distinction ?
Craig, this is turning into a pissing contest and I am not interested in going any further down this road. I will conceed that I contributed to the erosion of our conversation, but our views are so far apart that it really is a waste of time to continue. I have tried in the above to not attack your personally because this is what drives the other side to respond, when normally the conversation would die.
If you wish to answer my questions, please do, but I am going to do my best to show constaint and not respond. I don’t know you but I have had similar conversations with people with your view point. Almost all remain close friends of mine because we agree to disagree and not to bring up what we know are topics that will turn into a fight to the death.
You enjoy your weekend !
April 27th, 2007 at 1:20 pm
Here is what your statements equate to ” your too stupid and backward ass to know what is best for you, so shut the fuck up and let us superior, more advanced people’s tell you what and how to think !!!!! ”
Until you figure out the difference between a “push” poll and one that actually tries to gague public sentiment, you have nothing to say on this topic. All that writing of yours is meaningless.
April 27th, 2007 at 1:30 pm
Frenchman don’t worry, Craig likes to have reason, but he is a nice guy in real life
April 27th, 2007 at 2:28 pm
“Majorities…Approve of Attacks on US Troops. Large Majorities Agree With Many Goals of Al Qaeda…Most Support Enhancing Role of Islam in Their Society
Please tell me why a civilized person would not want to “undermine Islam” as it is understood by these people?
April 27th, 2007 at 2:47 pm
Nomad, Merci, I am sure you are right, which is why I don’t want to engage any further and hopefully the next time Craig and I meet, it will be more civil.
April 27th, 2007 at 3:39 pm
No THIS is what I call an interesting discussion. I better start reading now.
Meanwhile, I just like the fact that the study shows most Muslims don’t support acts of terrorism against innocent civilians.
April 27th, 2007 at 4:30 pm
Drima,
I wonder if their answers would be the same if there was a second question that asked about muslim support for attacks on Israeli civillians, since many muslims don’t see any Israelis as being civillians since they all eventually have to serve in the army. And what is the difference between a civillian and an innocent civillian anyways?
April 27th, 2007 at 6:45 pm
That should be civilian.
April 27th, 2007 at 7:15 pm
Frenchman,
when the Arab Sudanese, in their own understanding the standard bearers of Islam in that country, killed about two million black and mostly non-Muslim Southerners, did they do so in order to harm America? Or because those dirt-poor Southerners had collaborated with Zionism and therefore deserved it?
When the Iranian Muslims stone a rape victim to death because she “committed adultery”, do they do it because that poor woman through her ordeal somehow insidiously helped America?
When Algerian Muslims erase entire villages, killing everybody in the process, including children, women and the elderly, do they do it to avenge alleged “oil stealing” by the Americans? Certainly the poor victims must have facilitated that, right?
Islam doesn’t need America to be murderous in any way. And it’s not the Islamists who “distort Islam”. It’s the non-killers (and killer-supporters and killer-sympathizers) among the Muslims who — fortunately — who do not live their religion to the full.
April 27th, 2007 at 10:31 pm
Adam B. (41)- don’t be an idiot. Western expats have no need to call for “equal treatment” because in almost every ARab country they are treated as SUPERIOR to the native populations. Look at the Gulf states. Almost all major companies have Western executives. Westerners live in their own compounds, make astronomical salaries, have servants galore due to low cost of living, and pay very little income tax. In Egypt, Westerners are treated like kings. Do don’t undermine your opinion by peppering it with details that betray a total ignorance of the situation in the Middle East. I’m sick of morons like yourself passing judgment on issues that they so clearly know absolutely nothing about.
I still question the validity of the poll’s findings since it is inconsistent with a similar “global opinion poll” conducted just a few months ago. Furthermore, as I said earlier, this poll completely ignores the pro-American Christian Egyptians who make up 10% of the population, and probably also severly undercounts educated liberals/leftists.
April 27th, 2007 at 11:05 pm
Karen,
“Civilian” generally excludes apes and pigs, which need to be killed whether at a disco, a pizzeria, or at an ape/pig religious celebration.
Anyway, if you think “civilian” and “innocent civilian” mean the same thing, then you should have seen my high school classmates.
April 27th, 2007 at 11:07 pm
Stephan,
I believe the Phillippine Christian schoolgirls who periodically get beheaded are highly Zionisti