Ramadan

Ramadan to me is like a social experiment in how Egypt would be like if we all smoked hash all the time and people were running around high. People look tired, droopy eyed, unable to concentrate, and unwilling to work. They are suddenly completely incapable of both driving and parking, and their ability to stay civil with each other is reduced by 70%. All they want to do is do nothing. They are always thinking about food, lots and lots of food, they get up in your face and look at you strangely with a mix of envy and contempt if you are eating something good, and they would be really happy if they could just go to sleep. When they eat, they eat various dishes of food in the most ravenous of ways, and they just sit afterwards watching TV and slouching on the couch. 

Now, doesn't that sound like every single pothead you know? Well, imagine an entire country of them, running around all day, causing all kinds of traffic jams and delayed work. Imagine entire families, forced into meeting each other in social engagements and having awkward conversations for an entire month. And there is NO ALCOHOL. Imagine an entire month where everybody is obligated to invite everybody over and spend a fortune on food for no good reason. And then they go out and stay up till dawn hanging out in the street and causing traffic till 4 am.

And people wonder why I stay at home this entire month.

And if that's not enough, there is the retardedness surrounding the ramadan outings. In Egypt you have Big tents, where you pay hundreds of pounds to go sit, eat, drink, smoke shisha and watch an assortment of middle-eastern pop stars and belly dancers entertain your supposedly devout islamic ass. And if you are actually devout, then you will take the month seriously and engage in the Koran reading activities (30 chapters in 30 days) and Tarawee7 Prayers, which are insane special prayers that last like 30 units of prayers and are done in groups. So the Tarawee7 socializing pressure starts: Who is going to pray with us? Don;t you want to pray with us? Why not? It's Ramadan. It's one month a year for you to be good. And you cave in and your evening is all shot to shit.

And in that month you grow so envious of women, cause they have PERIODS, which allows them not to fast and no one would dare ask them why they are not fasting. But noo, not the men. Unless you are sick or christian, you better be fasting. And really, it's not that I want to eat. I just want my morning Coffee, with milk and sugar, and maybe even a glass of water after that so that I can start my working day right. But Nooooooo. You have to fast or at the very least be considerate to your fasting compatriots and not drink, smoke or eat in front of them, which I think is entirely unfair and fascist. Why the fuck should I be considerate to their fasting needs? I mean, they are choosing to do so. I am not. If anything, they should be considerate to my needs. After all, the entire fuckin universe doesn't revolve around you just because you are not gonna drink or eat from dawn till sunset. GROW THE FUCK UP!

Oh God. I AM SO GROUCHY. This SUCKS. I need my Caffeine NOW! I can't even make my own Coffee. THEY CLOSED THE KITCHEN. IT'S LOCKED AND SHIT! AGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

Day one is almost over. Dear God, make it go fast this year. Please. 

0 comment on Ramadan

  1. Egyptian in Germany
    September 13, 2007 at 11:03 am

    Hi SM,

    Nice to see your blogging. I read with interest this blog. I agree that many Egyptians just go beserk during Ramadan with nothin related to what it should be about. In Germany, where I live, I lead a very normal life in Ramadan with all people not fasting and me not sticking my fasting in other people’s faces. There are work hours here and nobody will change it especially for me and I have to accomodate myself for it. You see it is simple.
    Egyptian in Germany

    Reply
  2. issandr
    September 13, 2007 at 12:02 pm

    But people do smoke hash all the time during Ramadan (well among Cairo’s gilded elite anyway).

    Reply
  3. Adam B.
    September 13, 2007 at 1:31 pm

    I’ve always wondered what the point of fasting is if you can just go ahead and pig out big time as soon as the sun sets?! :oD

    Then again, to each his/her own… As long as the rest of us don’t have to refrain from eating and drinking as well!

    Reply
  4. someone who has to act like a muslim
    September 13, 2007 at 3:15 pm

    my uncle who was known for his rebelious ideas and cynical comments used to say : Rabena khalla fora2o 3id..happy ramadan

    Reply
  5. JT
    September 13, 2007 at 3:54 pm

    In Egypt you have Big tents, where you pay hundreds of pounds to go sit, eat, drink, smoke shisha and watch an assortment of middle-eastern pop stars and belly dancers entertain your supposedly devout islamic ass.

    LMAO

    You still got it.

    Reply
  6. Phobos
    September 13, 2007 at 10:03 pm

    I can’t imagine how you have never enjoyed even the basic aspects of Ramadan, … not even the warm social meetings of families and friends, something which is unquestionably being missed today., …. and you describe them as being forced and awkward! And you go on to make fun of both ends of th spectrum; hypocrites who spend money on hash and tents and belly dancers; and “devout muslims” who enjoy praying and social gatherings ….. your point is ?

    Reply
  7. N. American Princess
    September 14, 2007 at 4:25 am

    Have u thought of valium? Way 2 much anger babe…u need chill…seriously…

    Phobos is right..ur point is what exactly…Come spend Xmas here in the USA..the insanity is even worse cuz u r buying gifts for people that u probably don’t even like and that they don’t need and u r racking up bills on ur credit cards, and ur baking and making all this food, turkey, ham, christmas cake and cookies..and inviting and egg nogging and then there r the office parties…christmas dinner with his family, with hers…and it turns into New Years…and u r searching 4 that latest trendy freaking toy that every other kid in the Western world is looking 4…honey there is stress during any kind of religious festive season…go drink ur coffee and smoke joint…and all will be right with ur world..

    Reply
  8. Mr K
    September 14, 2007 at 6:45 am

    I agree with N Am. Princess, in Canada as well. Christmas is a social mania, many customs and traditions and you are just pushed into them.. At work they have those gifts exchange parties and I am “socially coerced” into them. I am told to “cross my fingers” so that anything would work.. I respect them. Maybe I don`t have a feel for them but I do them anyways bu know why? Cause ts the absolute majority so I blend into the collective without without being the bitch u r being. Go eat ur chocolate and have your coffee and stash ur alcohol from August and stop exaggerating.

    The length for Christians and sabbath for the Jews can be also viewed as critically but hey those and Ramadan give people an IDENTITY and make them feel good in a spiritual way. for me this is priceless.

    Reply
  9. forsoothsayer
    September 14, 2007 at 11:40 am

    yeah suck it up. any minority has to accomodate themselves with the needs of the majority wherever you are. or else just man up and admit you’re not fasting and don’t give a shit.

    Reply
  10. shitter
    September 14, 2007 at 12:21 pm

    As if you fast hehehehehehe.

    Shitting on Egypt and Islam as usual, like the cool Pooop monkey you are.

    Get a life….damn it….no wonder you blog……”You Idiot!”

    Dude you couldnt even make it in the States cuz you are such a fucking regressive Pasha and need folks to suck up to you, if you can then hurry up and inheret your peanuts and fuck off, good riddance.

    Reply
  11. Rancher
    September 14, 2007 at 1:06 pm

    I thought it was funny and he got to vent. That’s the point pinheads.

    Reply
  12. Sindy
    September 14, 2007 at 11:24 pm

    Guess what SM!! a friend of mine got arrested cause he was eating a sandwish at a cafe down town before iftar time!! thas is definitly fascist. and not just this, last ramadan i was attacked with a friend of mine and guy smashed my car with an iron rod, cause i was smoking!!!!

    AND GUESS WHAT???? RAMADAN THE PAGAN MONTHS OF FASTING IS ALL ABOUT FOOOOOD!!!

    I HATE THIS MONTH

    Reply
  13. Sindy
    September 14, 2007 at 11:29 pm

    very funny though, glad your back habiby

    Reply
  14. Mavis
    September 15, 2007 at 2:53 am

    Sweetie, I don’t know where you work, but you might bring in a little four cup coffee maker. Leave it at your desk. When you’re in the mood for coffee, make a cup or two. Just until next month.

    Reply
  15. anonymous
    September 15, 2007 at 6:34 am

    Arrested for eating a sandwich? that sound so totally bogus. Egypt has a substantial coptic population that has eats during Ramadan. Even the monkey says so. Quit the hate mongering Sindy…get educated and learn and understand. And if you can’t do that then shut the hell up. The monkey is a muslim in name only. His choice. God gives us all a choice. Also his loss. A person who believes in something is better than someone who believes in nothing. If you don’t believe something, how can you believe in yourself.

    Frankly Monkey sounds like u just need to get laid.

    Reply
  16. Tom Grant
    September 15, 2007 at 9:20 am

    I am glad the SM is back.

    As for Ramadan and Christmas, there are similarities. Some people resent these social occaisions and wish that it was just ‘another day’. I am that way about Christmas, though I really liked it as a kid, most of the time.

    Reply
  17. Encouraging Positive Debate
    September 15, 2007 at 2:29 pm

    This comment is a copy of another post that seems to apply here in this blog.

    The amount of comments left by people with such a lack of knowledge is startling. Their reasoning seems to be mostly because they do not believe in a creator so they should be able to do whatever they like so long as they are not caught & punished in this world. Or perhaps the feel that their God will not have a record of every single incident of ones life on the day of ressurection.
    The Islam religion is not based on blind faith and what we feel to be OK in our hearts.
    The purely scientific evidence mentioned in the only verifiably unchanged revelation is undeniable. No other scripture or publication from 1400 years ago speaks about:
    1. The expanding universe.
    2. Spherical shape of the earth.
    3. The moons light not being its own.
    4. The rotation of all celestial bodies.
    5. Hydrology: The Water Cycle
    6. Geology: The Purpose of Mountains
    7. Oceanology: Barrier between sweet / salt waters.
    8. Botany: Plants / Fruits have male & female gender distinctions.
    These are just some of the scientific proofs that everyone can easily do further research into to verify its authenticity. Others encompas zoology, medicine, physiology, embryology…
    The presence of such scientific knowlodge clearly proves its devine origin.
    Beyond the science, it also speaks on and re-affirms and clarifies the misconceptions, inaccuracies and contradictions of past revelations, and provides a complete ethical system on all aspects of human life so we can be rightly guided.
    In light of this clear evidence, one should not be so quick to dismiss a view in which we have no insight of its origin or which my seem trivial given the social condition we find around us. Neither should we be so quick to make condecending remarks orjokes that are intended to be insulting.

    Having read this, what does the sandmonkey and other people think of people conforming to this faith.

    As to the sandmonkeys original post, the idea of fasting is that we restrain ourselves from our personal desire solely fo the sake of God. This would include not being wasteful on food and not eating to an excess.

    This is the month in which the Koran was revealed which contains the scientific evidence noted above, and the fasting is prescribed for the muslim population.

    Obviously your experiences of how some in Egypt conducting themselves in this month seems little to do with the actual Islamic principle.

    Fasting is not just about not eating and drinking. Ones intention should be sincere, and the principle is extended to guarding what our eyes see, ears hear etc. Wasteful spending is also limited unlike in many US occasions, and there is a recommended increase in charity to the less fortunate.

    In Ramadan, being civil with each other for a practicing muslim would increase as we are also required to be mindful of how we conduct ourselves with others. And of course the watching of bellydancers would be forbidden.

    God does not want or need the worship of these types of people, and it seems that they should seek knowledge if they are unclear of what is required from them in this month. At the very least they need to ask the almighty for forgiveness and assisstance to mend their ways.

    I hope you also understand that the idea of being considerate to others is generally a good act percieved by your fellow man as well as God, although perhaps you should eloborate on why you are unwilling to be considerate in the first place.

    … and dont’t forget the evidence above by the time you reach the end.

    Reply
  18. JT
    September 15, 2007 at 3:20 pm

    Look people, going without food from dawn to sunset is not a fast, okay? Many Americans do that on a constant basis year around because they work so hard, they forget to eat. You stuff your face before dawn, you stuff your face after sunset, and you think that makes you a good Muslim? Instead of fasting and praying, Muslims will see Islam’s reputation shoot straight up if they would spend that time doing something kind for others (i.e. for Jews or non-Muslims).

    The monkey is a muslim in name only. His choice. God gives us all a choice. Also his loss. A person who believes in something is better than someone who believes in nothing.

    I beg to differ, but he hasn’t lost anything. If every Muslim were like him and doesn’t take the Koran so literally, there’d be lasting peace on Earth overnight. No more head chopping, no more blowing people up. He believes in free choice and personal responsibility. Exercising one’s free will can be very liberating. He’s carved out a path for himself and doesn’t follow the mass. That’s what separates leaders from followers. You, I’m sorry to say, has failed to see that.

    Reply
  19. Jordan
    September 15, 2007 at 4:22 pm

    I love how ignorant people are. The unibomber and McVeigh, were christians and terrorits but no one calls them christian terrorits. What about the christians in england starving the catholics in Ireland during the potato famine. What about the christians in massachusettes during the salem witch trials. What about the spanish inquisition, the muslims and jews were living in peace then the catholics come along and force prostlitize people and if you didnt you were killed. what about the christian in bosnia and their holocaust against the muslims. what about the good christians in america who wiped out the indians. what about the catholic pope being a nazi. what about the first prime minister of Israel being the head of the first middle eastern terrorist group, the zionists and bombing and killing thousands including the bombing of the King David Hotel. What about the jews who are supposed to be our allies but spy on us all the time, they blew up and killed 200 soilders on the USS and Liberty and their excuse until the truth came out was that they thought it was an egyptian boat. now tell me what fucking arab country has any navy boats that look like ours. Look at all the violence in the world, its mostly caused by Christianity and white people.

    Reply
  20. Ray
    September 15, 2007 at 4:52 pm

    JT, perhaps you could explain after reading Response 16 why it is better better not to takes Gods word literally and replace Gods ruling with personal choice.

    Also, are you trying to imply that it is wrong to kill people, or just certain people. Obviously innocent people should not be harmed, but lets say a proven guilty person such as a rapist; who are we to say they should not be killed. Or homosexuality, adultery, sex before marriage. Should they not be punished.

    If we have proved Gods ruling on a matter then if you exercise your free will against what God has decreed, would you then not be in the wrong.

    The problem with free choice and personal resonsibility is that first oaf all you are going against what God wills, and also implying that God does not know what is best for is creation.

    Reply
  21. JT
    September 15, 2007 at 6:10 pm

    Jordan,
    I love how ignorant people are. The unibomber and McVeigh, were christians and terrorits but no one calls them christian terrorits.

    The Unabomber, Ted Kaczynski, was a domestic terrorist but he was not a Christian. Source here. He was against science and technology; he wasn’t against religion and he certainly didn’t killed in the name of Christianity. I read several of his biographies and did not see any reference to Christianity or his religion. He was a phenomenal mathematician but left his prestigious job to lead a poor life in a simple shack in Montana.

    Timothy McVeigh was also not a Christian. Source: The Guardian, June 11th, 2001 by Julian Borger titled “McVeigh faces day of reckoning.” Like you, Louis Farrakhan also accused McVeigh of being a Chrstian, but McVeigh himself stated he was an agnostic. When asked what he thought about the possibility of a heaven and a hell, McVeigh said that if there is one, that he would “adapt, improvise, and overcome.” Source: CNN Chat Transcript.

    I’ll stop here. I can debunk the rest of your post, but I have little interest in doing so, plus it will take a lot of time to get through to you, since you are set in your beliefs, however erroneous they are. You have a computer, you have the vast Internet available to you, yet you chose to believe in propaganda spread by the likes of Louis Farrakhan rather than do your own due diligence.

    Reply
  22. JT
    September 15, 2007 at 6:28 pm

    Ray,

    JT, perhaps you could explain after reading Response 16 why it is better better not to takes Gods word literally and replace Gods ruling with personal choice.

    The answer is simple: Allah gave you free choice, so he expects you to use it. If he wanted you to be like a robot and follow all his commands without question, he would have made you like robots. He gave you a mind of your own. Use it. Secondly, if you believe Allah’s rulings are clear, then you’re in for a big surprise. Power hungry people are using Islam to lead fools to commit violence. They use Islam to control the masses. There are so many examples of this. Just read the fatwas by the Islamic scholars today. Many of them are incredibly stupid. If Allah’s rulings are clear, then why does he need Muhammad? Why not just write the book and have Gabriel bring it down from heaven? If it’s clear, any fool can read it and understand it without Muhammad explaining it to them. If it’s clear, why do Muslims need clerics and ayatollahs to explain things to them?

    Also, are you trying to imply that it is wrong to kill people, or just certain people. Obviously innocent people should not be harmed, but lets say a proven guilty person such as a rapist; who are we to say they should not be killed. Or homosexuality, adultery, sex before marriage. Should they not be punished.

    This is where followers become stupid. Rapists should be punished, but by the government, not by an Islamic organization or a religious panel. If it causes physical harm to others, then punish them, but if it’s things of a personal nature like homosexual acts, adultery, and sex before marriage, then it’s nobody’s business. It’s between the people involved. Remember free will? If two unmarried people choose to have sex outside of marriage, what business is it of a religious body to punish them? Are the clerics gods now?

    This can go on forever but I’ll make it short. If you want to be a slave for Allah, then that’s your choice. Just don’t force it on others. That’s what Islamists are doing around the world at the moment: forcing their beliefs on others. Again, if this was indeed Allah’s will, why not just make everybody turn into robots so there’ll be no more conflicts between religious fanatics and everyone else? I practice my own free will. I choose not to be a slave for Allah. I choose not to follow Muhammad. I choose not to force my beliefs on others. My life. My choice.

    Reply
  23. Phobos
    September 15, 2007 at 11:43 pm

    JT, Actually you might be surprised to know that in most if not cases Islam only punishes for crimes that influence the community negatively. Basically in an Islamic society you can perform adultery as long as it is in secret and as long as you don’t admit it ( and therefore influencing others to do the same). You are punished only if you are witnessed performing adultery by 4 people ( an almost ridiculous precondition) …., and if only 3 witnesses claim they saw someone performing adultery THEY would get punished for dishonoring the person in question.
    So basically Islam employs a common principal but draws the line at a different level.
    So who is it that draws the line ? Devout Muslims chose God to draw line through the teachings of Muhammed PBUH.

    And of course the main idea behind being reward-able or punishable by God is having free will. So there is no point in God rewarding or punishing us for something we don’t have the ability to disobey.

    Reply
  24. Ray
    September 16, 2007 at 12:32 am

    JT,

    I’m still not clear on weather you believe in a God or not. I don’t think at the moment it maters which religion you follow as long as you are able to acknowledge that a revelation was received by Moses (peace be upon him), Jesus (peace be upon him), Mohammed (peace be upon him), from God via the arc angel Gabriel.

    So God created humans with free will but also with intelligence which you seem to not be using here. Angels are the creation that do not have free so always obey Gods will, but humans have the choice between right and wrong. If there was no choice for them then there would be no need in heaven or hell, which implies that on the day of russerection those who voluntarily followed Gods commands, sought forgiveness and do not return to sin will be the eternal dwellers of paradise. Similarly, if you voluntarily commit sin, do not repent and mend your ways will reside in the fire whose fuel is men and stone.

    From response 16, the evidence in devine revelation seems pretty sound and that may be why you have chosen not to comment on them.

    Your comments on how power hungary people use religion is meaningless. It only goes to show that some humans are not following the religion properly, rather they are using it for personal benefit. We should not judge a religion based on a certain group of followers, rather we should gather our evidence direct from the revelation of the Torah, the Gospel and the Koran.

    And contrary to your position, Gabriel did bring Gods revelation down and forward it to the human population through his chosen Prophets, eg Jesus (pbuh) & Mohammd (pbuh). However we are unable to directly verify this miracle as we were not present 2000 & 1400 years ago. But from reading response 16 it seems that the Koran can be verified as being a miracle of devine origin as it contains much scientific info that humans have only come to know about reletively recently.

    In light of proving Gods divinity, why then would you put his commandments aside and replace it all with man-made government legislation. The fact is God has already legislated through his revelations what is to be done with all types of criminals, and the nature of the crime they have commited. Simply saying that it is between the people involved is not good enough if God & revelations are proven.

    In comment to your final paragraph, Islam is very clear that their is no compulsion in religion, and you cannot be forced to accept Islam. This you need to do on your own accord by gathering information on the clear revelations and not through how some people choose to wrongly follow it.

    Around the world it seems muslims are trying to safeguard their belief in their own country where the majority of the population is already muslim. It is clear that it is mainly foregin powes that are currently going in to msli countries, not the other way round.

    Allah did not make us robots so that we may use our intelligence to do righteous deeds. Surely on the day of russerection this measure will be used to seperate the dwellers of the fire and those of paradise.

    Your life. Your Choice. Just don’t expect the righteous (those who strive to follow God) and the unrighteous (those who frequently follow their own desires and chose to dismiss Gods decree) to be treated equaly on the day of judgement.

    The best way to know you are right and Islam is wrong is to find a single mistake or contradiction in the Koran. Just bear in mid the it has not been done yet in 1400 years.

    Reply
  25. Rays
    September 16, 2007 at 12:41 am

    JT,

    I’m still not clear on weather you believe in a God or not. I don’t think at the moment it maters which religion you follow as long as you are able to acknowledge that a revelation was received by Moses (peace be upon him), Jesus (peace be upon him), Mohammed (peace be upon him), from God via the arc angel Gabriel.

    So God created humans with free will but also with intelligence which you seem to not be using here. Angels are the creation that do not have free so always obey Gods will, but humans have the choice between right and wrong. If there was no choice for them then there would be no need in heaven or hell, which implies that on the day of russerection those who voluntarily followed Gods commands, sought forgiveness and do not return to sin will be the eternal dwellers of paradise. Similarly, if you voluntarily commit sin, do not repent and mend your ways will reside in the fire whose fuel is men and stone.

    From response 16, the evidence in devine revelation seems pretty sound and that may be why you have chosen not to comment on them.

    Your comments on how power hungary people use religion is meaningless. It only goes to show that some humans are not following the religion properly, rather they are using it for personal benefit. We should not judge a religion based on a certain group of followers, rather we should gather our evidence direct from the revelation of the Torah, the Gospel and the Koran.

    And contrary to your position, Gabriel did bring Gods revelation down and forward it to the human population through his chosen Prophets, eg Jesus (pbuh) & Mohammd (pbuh). However we are unable to directly verify this miracle as we were not present 2000 & 1400 years ago. But from reading response 16 it seems that the Koran can be verified as being a miracle of devine origin as it contains much scientific info that humans have only come to know about reletively recently.

    In light of proving Gods divinity, why then would you put his commandments aside and replace it all with man-made government legislation. The fact is God has already legislated through his revelations what is to be done with all types of criminals, and the nature of the crime they have commited. Simply saying that it is between the people involved is not good enough if God & revelations are proven.

    In comment to your final paragraph, Islam is very clear that their is no compulsion in religion, and you cannot be forced to accept Islam. This you need to do on your own accord by gathering information on the clear revelations and not through how some people choose to wrongly follow it.

    Around the world it seems muslims are trying to safeguard their belief in their own country where the majority of the population is already muslim. It is clear that it is mainly foregin powes that are currently going in to msli countries, not the other way round.

    Allah did not make us robots so that we may use our intelligence to do righteous deeds. Surely on the day of russerection this measure will be used to seperate the dwellers of the fire and those of paradise.

    Your life. Your Choice. Just don’t expect the righteous (those who strive to follow God) and the unrighteous (those who frequently follow their own desires and chose to dismiss Gods decree) to be treated equaly on the day of judgement.

    The best way to know you are right and Islam is wrong is to find a single mistake or contradiction in the Koran. Just bear in mid the it has not been done yet in 1400 years.

    Reply
  26. Rays
    September 16, 2007 at 12:43 am

    Appologies for the duplicate post.
    Kindly remove one of them.
    Thanks.

    Reply
  27. JT
    September 16, 2007 at 12:55 am

    Phobos,

    JT, Actually you might be surprised to know that in most if not cases Islam only punishes for crimes that influence the community negatively.

    That’s exactly the opposite of what I’m trying to say: Islam should not punish anyone. That’s the job of government, not religion. If Islam indeed is a good religion, then it should be like Christianity and Judaism in that it focuses on the individual, not the community. Build up the individual person, and their collective spiritual growth will be reflected in the community. Start from the bottom up, beginning with the individual. Start from the community down to the individual, and you have the Islamic world like we see today, with powerful Muslim clerics in charge of what the individual can say, do, and dress. Religious police roaming the streets looking to beat and jail people who dress inappropriately, enforcing backward laws that oppress the individual’s humanity. Even in the United States, Muslim women and girls are harassed by Muslim men for not wearing the hijab. The Muslim Student Association was involved in such an incident in Texas a few days ago.

    What separates us from animals is that we have free will and they don’t. Animals do not know what is right and what is wrong; they just do what they were made to do. A crocodile does not feel any remorse when it jumps out of the river bank and snatches a young child’s belly and rips it to pieces, and drags the child under (that actually happened in Florida not too long ago). We humans, depending on our upbringing, do know right from wrong. We should have the right to exercise that faculty without fear of harassment or persecution from the religious authorities, who are just as frail as the rest of us, and who make just as many mistakes as we do, only no one persecutes them for their misdeeds. Yet, they turn around and demand that we submit to their interpretation of their religion, otherwise we would be fined, jailed, or killed. It does not make sense to suggest that our creator would want us for his slaves. Why didn’t Allah just made us robots? Then, we would follow all his commands and we would love him because he tells us to, not because we choose to. Convince a Muslim to submit their will to the authority of a cleric, and you can program that Muslim to do anything, including pouring gasoline on an Iraqi boy and setting him ablaze.

    Reply
  28. Fady
    September 16, 2007 at 2:47 am

    And to think that I actually started missing your blogging, SM!

    I don’t believe Ramadan is a festival; it’s a chance. One that you are definitely missing.

    Reply
  29. anonymous
    September 16, 2007 at 3:42 am

    Sandmonkey…

    sandmonkey…well ur anger-filled rant produced a lot of comments…no 1 has been commenting much on any of the other stuff you’ve posted lately…interesting…is it a coincidence you think that a post that is anti-Ramadan in Egypt was posted….hmmm….let’s think about that one…

    JT: if the world were filled with muslims like this monkey then it would be a better world? how is that? monkey is full of such anger, hate and intolerance to his fellow muslims…how would he treat other people of other faiths or those of no faith? even if he chooses not to fast and not to practice any of the tenets of the faith he was born into..and it is his choice…it is unquestionably his loss…frankly if he was a practicing jew or christian i would have more respect for him because perhaps it would give him the kindness in his heart that he needs towards his fellow human beings…shouldn’t he be the more enlightened human being and be more tolerant of all that he purveys…instead of acting like a 5 yr old child that can’t have candy for breakfast…

    you would never know that the man who wrote the thoughtful sensitive post about his late grandmother is the boy who wrote the rant about Ramadan in Egypt…here’s to hoping he finds peace and kindness towards his fellow Egyptians

    Reply
  30. JT
    September 16, 2007 at 4:15 am

    Ray,

    From response 16, the evidence in devine revelation seems pretty sound and that may be why you have chosen not to comment on them.

    It is my judgment that Islam and scientific evidence don’t go together. Now, would you be courageous enough to put your judgment to the test? Have it examined by thousands of people around the world? If you have that courage to better your understanding, go to Faith Freedom International and discuss your views with the people there.

    Your comments on how power hungary people use religion is meaningless. It only goes to show that some humans are not following the religion properly, rather they are using it for personal benefit.

    Interesting. Then, how do you know if someone is following Islam properly? Who is the judge if that person is practicing Islam correctly? Muslim apostates are being killed around the world. I gather you would think that is not Islamic and you would give me the “no compulsion in Islam” verse. Then, how do you explain Muhammad threatening the Omani people with death if they did not accept his invitation to Islam? Source here. There is even a photograph of the original Arabic letter from Muhammad to the Omani people, and that picture is stored in present day Oman (a Muslim country).

    Here is a post I wrote at BP’s blog on my view of Islam and Muhammad.

    The best way to know you are right and Islam is wrong is to find a single mistake or contradiction in the Koran. Just bear in mid the it has not been done yet in 1400 years.

    There are many contradictions, one of which I have already pointed out. I’ve lost track of the number of contradictions I’ve found in Islam. You have a lot of reading to do on your own but here is another contradiction. Do you know of the Abrogated Verses in the Koran? If Allah is perfect and the Koran is without mistake, then why are the abrogated verses needed? Why can’t Allah get it right the first time? Why does he need to make changes to the Koran? Another one: the Koran says Allah is all knowing, but Koran 8:71 says that Allah has been deceived before. If Allah is all knowing, how can he be deceived?

    I’m not an Islamic scholar; I just know enough about Islam to stay far away from it. If you want to be a slave for Allah, that is your choice. All I ask is that Muslims like you don’t force your beliefs on anyone; not your friends, your wife, your husband, your children, etc. Let each person decide for themselves.

    Reply
  31. JT
    September 16, 2007 at 5:06 am

    anonymous,

    JT: if the world were filled with muslims like this monkey then it would be a better world? how is that? monkey is full of such anger, hate and intolerance to his fellow muslims…how would he treat other people of other faiths or those of no faith?

    I actually like the Sand Man, so I’m gonna stand up for him. My apologies to you, SM, if you think this is no necessary.

    Yes, Sandmonkey is full of anger, but not the kind of anger that the Islamic head choppers possess. He is angry about the stupidity of people. He is angry with their hypocrisies and insanity. He has often posted about it. Have you not read it? He’s an equal opportunity critic. Just go through the archives here for plenty of examples. As for your accusation that he is intolerant, I strongly disagree. He is the most tolerant Muslim blogger I know. Period. I have been reading his blog for several years and I know that he will let people voice their opinions without banning them or deleting their posts. I have been to other blogs run by Muslims and I’ve seen how they handle the posts they don’t agree with, by deleting it. Of all the blogs I frequent, this is my second favorite blog if for no other reason than the fact that the author exhibits traits of tolerance that I appreciate. He understands and promotes free speech. Your post will not be removed and you can bash him all you want. I have not found any other Muslim on the internet who can hold a candle to him when it comes to tolerating dissenting views that they don’t agree with.

    He has also shown compassion for the less fortunate; i.e. the Egyptian bloggers who were persecuted, beaten, and jailed for what they published on their blogs. He’s lead online campaigns to help free them. He also took part in demonstrating against terrorism. It is also true that he hates….jihadis, rapists, murderers, pedophiles, etc., but what reasonable person would condemn him for that? I would gladly trade every single Muslim in the United States for one Sandmonkey, because I know he will assimilate effortlessly into American society instead of trying to overthrow my country’s government from within like so many Muslim groups in the US are doing.

    …frankly if he was a practicing jew or christian i would have more respect for him because perhaps it would give him the kindness in his heart that he needs towards his fellow human beings…

    Are you suggesting that Islam can’t give him that kind of kindness that you think he needs? Should he make a list of every kind act he’s ever done for others and submit it for your approval?

    Reply
  32. Fady
    September 16, 2007 at 6:15 am

    “Why can’t Allah get it right the first time?”

    In the early times of humanity incest was okay. Otherwise human reproduction would not have been possible. That was a stage. Is it okay for today?

    No? Then “why can’t Allah get it right the first time?”

    Moses (peace be upon him) commanded his followers to rest on Saturday. Jesus (peace be upon him) did not. “Why can’t Allah get it right the first time?”

    Assuming that it is ungodly to guide in stages is an illogical claim. Watching a kid learn something is enough to debunk it.

    Reply
  33. Fady
    September 16, 2007 at 6:43 am

    “Why can’t Allah get it right the first time?”

    In the early times of humanity incest was okay. Otherwise human reproduction would not have been possible. That was a stage. Is it okay for today?

    No? Then “why can’t Allah get it right the first time?”

    Moses (peace be upon him) commanded his followers to rest on Saturday. Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) did not. “Why can’t Allah get it right the first time?”

    Assuming that it is ungodly to guide in stages is an illogical claim. Watching a kid learn something is enough to debunk it.

    Reply
  34. JT
    September 16, 2007 at 8:22 am

    Fady,

    Why are you inserting the genesis of human reproduction into a discussion on the abrogated verses? When Muhammad was new to his new found job as the most perfect human being ever created, and messenger of Allah, he spoke of peace and religious equally. After he gained strength in numbers, power, and influence, he conveniently received the abrogated verses which allowed him to get a license from Allah to do whatever he wanted.

    Moses (peace be upon him) commanded his followers to rest on Saturday. Jesus (peace be upon him) did not. “Why can’t Allah get it right the first time?”

    The Muslim Jesus is not the Jesus depicted in the Christian Bible, so I don’t see the relevance in introducing Jesus to this discussion about the abrogated verses as defined by Muhammad. Muslims do not believe Jesus is the son of God. They do not believe He died and rose from the dead, and they do not believe His blood can cleanse transgressions. Hypothetically, if going by the Bible, Jesus never violated any of the Mosaic laws (see Matthew 5:17-20; Luke 16:17; Romans 10:4; Galatians 4:4; 1 John 3:4-5). The religious leaders in His day added their own traditions and distorted interpretations to the Mosaic laws, and Jesus chastised them by saying, “You experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them” (Luke 11:46).

    Assuming that it is ungodly to guide in stages is an illogical claim. Watching a kid learn something is enough to debunk it.

    It is my judgment that Islam is Muhammad’s own creation, and like a child, he made it up as he went along. Even marrying a little girl and having sex with her was okay with Allah. How, then, can any sensible person accept him as an absolute moral authority when he murdered, raped, molested a girl, had his political opponents assassinated for insulting him? His list of crimes is very long, and I cannot in good conscience accept his Koran as irrefutable proof of science or anything else.

    Reply
  35. Rays
    September 16, 2007 at 1:30 pm

    JT, in response to your comments in 29.

    “It is my judgment that Islam and scientific evidence don’t go together. Now, would you be courageous enough to put your judgment to the test? Have it examined by thousands of people around the world? If you have that courage to better your understanding, go to Faith Freedom International and discuss your views with the people there.”

    The Koran is the only revelation that is still unchanged and that has extensive verses on science. Response 16 lists some that humans have relatively recently come to know as fact. Yet more verses talk correctly about embryology and the changes that occur in the fetus within the mothers’ womb and the cell divisions that occur.
    Such facts are beyond the scope of people of the time of its revelation and can only be revealed by the creator.
    As for examining the statements, I do not need to be personally courageous as I have already verified such statements myself. Doing so especially given the resources we have access to is quite easy for anyone who has an open mind and is interested in the truth. I welcome all to delve in to the subject much deeper. But beyond my request to do this, the Koran itself asks you to test its legitimacy. This invitation is not just for thousands of people but for the whole of human kind until the day of resurrection.

    “Interesting. Then, how do you know if someone is following Islam properly? Who is the judge if that person is practicing Islam correctly? Muslim apostates are being killed around the world. I gather you would think that is not Islamic and you would give me the “no compulsion in Islam” verse. Then, how do you explain Muhammad threatening the Omani people with death if they did not accept his invitation to Islam? Source here. There is even a photograph of the original Arabic letter from Muhammad to the Omani people, and that picture is stored in present day Oman (a Muslim country).”

    You should be aware that Islam being prevalent in a certain country does not mean that the people of this country all have to be Muslim. There is no compulsion on the individual to accept Islam. During the time of the Islamic State, Muslims and Non-Muslims lived side by side in Peace, and re are required to debate with them in the kindest manner when conveying Islam. Perhaps we should look closer at why the Omani people adopted Islam as the truth.

    “Here is a post I wrote at BP’s blog on my view of Islam and Muhammad.”

    Your personal views on current trends will not help in these kinds of debates as our first stance should be to try establishing the authenticity of all revelations.
    Peace is likely to be one of the natural consequences, but it would be wrong to think we should be pacifists. If there is a wrong than we should try to stop it either with our hand or our tongue or at the very least hate it with our heart.
    Please note that correctly distinguishing right and wrong here is part of the Koran and the Sahih Hadith which we should always refer back to when we are making judgements on any issue.

    “There are many contradictions….”

    The scientific statement mentioned thus far in Response 16 and my previous comments are sound, and can be verified as conforming to the accepted scientific thought. The Koran itself again challenges us. Perhaps you can post your rebuttal to these specific statements to make your position more firm for other readers who like myself, are unsure as to your perceived contradictions.

    “Do you know of the Abrogated Verses in the Koran”

    Again for the benefit of other readers, you need to be specific, but yet I can see why you may feel there are contradictions.

    First, your sources are translations which as you know are not as accurate as the original. In your reference below we are shown three translations which are similar but not the same, which implies that at least 2 are inaccurate with the possibility that all 3 may also be inaccurate.

    You also need to read the Sahih Hadith which is an extensive collection of documented quotes from the beloved Prophet.

    Thirdly, which is of greater importance is that such statements are seldom analysed by people who have the required knowledge. Some people may not be aware of the full circumstances behind the revelation of some verses. To clarify your misconceptions you need to know why verses are revealed and for this you need to have an understanding of the life of the last Prophet (pbuh). Again this is well documented and readily available in the Seerah.

    For the benefit of other readers I’ll show an example of the type of claims that are called abrogative. Again, bear in mind that it’s a translation and is not being referred to the Seerah or Sahih Hadith:

    “When God imposed the night prayers, Muslims’ feet swelled as they stood during the night (for prayer); thus, God lightened it for them by saying, ‘Pray as much as you are able.”

    To some readers it seems that God was unaware of the difficulty of the night prayer and so lightened the load of the worshipper. JT and other would say that God should have done this from the beginning.
    First it needs to be noted that the night prayer mentioned here is purely voluntary and does not even need to be offered by a Muslim.
    However, Muslims of the time were extremely devout and would still stand for this night prayer for long hours.
    Upon this I gather that God revealed ‘Pray as much as you can’ as a mercy to the believers.

    As you may be aware, all revelations were revealed in stages as and when the need arises. God knows best why in his wisdom it was done so rather than in one go. Perhaps it would be too much for humans to implement the correct practice all together, and so may be a form of mercy.
    Regardless of weather we can understand the wisdom behind it, nothing here goes to disprove the Koran’s authenticity.

    “Koran says Allah is all knowing, but Koran 8:71 says that Allah has been deceived before. If Allah is all knowing, how can he be deceived?”

    Here is the link you sent me to:
    008.071
    YUSUFALI: But if they have treacherous designs against thee, (O Messenger!), they have already been in treason against Allah, and so hath He given (thee) power over them. And Allah so He Who hath (full) knowledge and wisdom.
    PICKTHAL: And if they would betray thee, they betrayed Allah before, and He gave (thee) power over them. Allah is Knower, Wise.
    SHAKIR: And if they intend to act unfaithfully towards you, so indeed they acted unfaithfully towards Allah before, but He gave (you) mastery over them; and Allah is Knowing, Wise.

    None of these translations remotely imply that God was deceived or that God was unaware. Perhaps you can try to explain your analysis further.

    “I’m not an Islamic scholar; I just know enough about Islam to stay far away from it. If you want to be a slave for Allah, that is your choice. All I ask is that Muslims like you don’t force your beliefs on anyone; not your friends, your wife, your husband, your children, etc. Let each person decide for themselves.”

    JT, the fact that you are not an Islamic scholar is obvious and I assume this to be true for many of the readers as they would have know the context behind: the one-ness of God, revelations, scientific arguments, social wellbeing, family obligations, financial interactions, charity requirements etc. all of which are part of the Islamic religion as revealed by the creator of all things.
    This is how to worship God in all parts of our life (and how God wishes to be worshiped), and we should not replace this with what our desires would like to be true, such as democratically deciding laws opposite to religion and making government legislation of more importance than Gods law.

    But that does not mean you should not continue to seek the truth just because you do not agree with or cannot adhere to some of the requirements.

    All your points of forcing belief arise only after proving the belief to be true, which is what I hope we will all continue to strive for.

    Reply
  36. anonymous
    September 16, 2007 at 4:40 pm

    JT…stop watching cnn…you sound totally brainwashed..cuz yes every single muslim in america is trying to overthrow the government…are you insane…he helped egyptian bloggers? why hasn’t he helped those poor children that beg in the streets..done something to help the over 250000 Egyptians in the Delta that don’t have clean drinking water, volunteerism is sadly lacking in this country…instead of wasting his time on the net and with wealthy drugg-addicted alcoholic bourgeois buddies he should go out of his cocoon and see what he can do to help make the day a better one for his fellow Egyptians…when Egyptians basic needs have been met, then we’ll talk about these online bloggers..sandmonkey is deluded in thinking that there is free speech anywhere in the world…you can say what you want in europe and north america as long as it doesn’t disagree with the current government political agenda..if it does…your phones are tapped…and they have anti-terrorism laws that can pull anyone off the streets at any time and any place and never charge or tell them why they were arrested…so get your head out of your butt…and wake up…and stop kissing the monkey’s ass…i don’t think he goes that way…

    re: if Islam can teach him to be a kinder person..of course can…but when your heart is closed and my mind isn’t open to the message….well…the onus is on you…God (in all religions) helps those who help themselves…

    at least he’s feeling good cuz you are so busy kissing his butt that he doesn’t have to face the fact that he is no better than the intolerant jihadists he loves to criticize…and fyi millions of muslims live everyday regular ordinary non-political lives in Europe and North America and contribute to the society in positive charitable ways…wake up and stop stereotyping and painting everyone with the same brush…u and ur angry, intolerant unkind monkey..he who only helps those who have the same agenda or agree with him…like i said no better than those you both criticize

    Reply
  37. Fady
    September 16, 2007 at 6:03 pm

    #33

    “Why are you inserting the genesis of human reproduction into a discussion on the abrogated verses?”

    “The Muslim Jesus is not the Jesus depicted in the Christian Bible, so I don’t see the relevance in introducing Jesus to this discussion about the abrogated verses as defined by Muhammad. ”

    These are examples of exactly what you are claiming is “a problem” in Islam. How can they be irrelevant to the argument? How can our fundamentally different views of Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) affect the fact that Christians don’t follow many of the teachings Moses (peace be upon him) came with?

    Reply
  38. Fady
    September 16, 2007 at 6:32 pm

    “It is my judgment that Islam is Muhammad’s own creation, and like a child, he made it up as he went along. Even marrying a little girl and having sex with her was okay with Allah. How, then, can any sensible person accept him as an absolute moral authority when he murdered, raped, molested a girl, had his political opponents assassinated for insulting him? His list of crimes is very long, and I cannot in good conscience accept his Koran as irrefutable proof of science or anything else.”

    It amuses me how many anti-Islam and anti-Muslim people love to use this kind of language. In fact this is the norm for comments in LGF and most conservative blogs.

    This message of hatred is mainly spread by some Jews and Christians who support the state of Israel and the “chosen people” for purely religious reasons. They are doing it in the name of God.

    But in all fairness, they are not alone in that. When I was doing EE in Canada, we once had a neo-nazi that vandalized the washroom with anti-Jewish and other racist markings. Guess what did he draw above that filth? Yup: a Christian cross.

    White supremacists believe that THEY are the “chosen people” of God, not the Jewish people. So in turn, they’re spreading ugly racist hatred in the name of God.

    So much for the “no hatred in the name of God” thingie.

    As for me, I stick with Mohammed (peace be upon him) that told me that “There’s no difference between an Arab and a Non-arab but by Taqwa (good deeds)”. And not how much Aryan blood they have in them.

    I stick with the Quran that commands me to use the best language when in an argument. And not terms like “Koranimals” and “Moose-limbs” which are more than common among the peaceful neo-conservative crowd.

    http://quran.al-islam.com/Targama/dispTargam.asp?l=arb&t=eng&nType=1&nSora=16&nAya=125

    Reply
  39. Fady
    September 16, 2007 at 6:44 pm

    anonymous,
    “stop watching cnn”

    Actually, many people in the west believe that CNN is pro-Muslim and anti-american, anti-israel, etc. They, instead, turn to the more insane Fox News, or Faux News as it is more accurately called.

    Reply
  40. Roman Kalik
    September 16, 2007 at 8:47 pm

    Fady, I am quite amused by the fact that, while accusing others of stereotyping and hatred, you mention the good old “Chosen People” argument, or slur rather. That particular piece of anti-Semitic drivel (that Jews are egocentric and supremacist) has been around for ages.

    And you know what? To this day, few if any bother to ask actual Jews what being Chosen means.

    Well, Chosen means many things, because Jews endlessly debate and analyze everything. Chosen means a spiritual burden that you must carry; Chosen means that the Jewish people were ready and willing to accept such a burden; Chosen means that the Jewish people, about 3500 years ago, was slightly better than other people (and has steadily failed to return to that mythical high-point ever since); Chosen means constant over-analysis of every little deed, as anything you do affects the world for the better or for the worse; Chosen means a chance for a higher reward in Heaven, along with an equal chance of extra effort to purify your tarnished soul in Purgatory; Chosen means being hated, chased, and an attempted erasure at least once per generation (there’s even an old song about that).

    Chosen? You have no idea what Chosen means. I just gave you a taste, a tiny smidgeon.

    And you accuse JT of what you yourself have yet to correct in yourself.

    Reply
  41. JT
    September 16, 2007 at 8:51 pm

    anonymous,

    cuz yes every single muslim in america is trying to overthrow the government…are you insane…

    In my previous post, I said Muslim organizations, not every individual Muslims who are forcing their backward cultural and religious practices down America’s throat. You are twisting what I said.

    he helped egyptian bloggers? why hasn’t he helped those poor children that beg in the streets..

    Are you his judge now? Yes, he helped Egyptian bloggers. I don’t know if he has helped poor Egyptian children but even if he did, why should he posts about it? To get compliments and kudos from strangers on the net so he can pad his ego and say to himself what a righteous person he is? Like I asked you in the previous post, should he make a list of his good deeds and submit it for your approval? Who are you exactly? Would you like to tell us about all the poor children you helped so we can compliment you on what a charitable person you are?

    at least he’s feeling good cuz you are so busy kissing his butt that he doesn’t have to face the fact that he is no better than the intolerant jihadists he loves to criticize…

    When you compare someone like SM to a head chopper, you lose all credibility. There is no point in talking with someone who launches personal insults rather than focus on the substantive points. This conversation with you ends here.

    Reply
  42. Phobos
    September 16, 2007 at 8:57 pm

    J, about the abrogated verses, if I may put it more simply, its because instructions and laws were introduced gradually. The basic example I know is verse 4:43

    O ye who believe! Approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say

    which basically allows alcohol unless you are going to pray, …. this was the final step before this verse was abrogated and alcohol was finally prohibited.

    Reply
  43. Roman Kalik
    September 16, 2007 at 9:04 pm

    By the way, Fady, I am also ever amused by the “Islam Under Siege” mentality. Yes, most Muslims lead normal lives, yet they handle the Islamists by not handling them, by hardly ever mentioning them, by living in denial and by inventing insane conspiracy theories about how they’re all Western agents.

    Like many, I’m still waiting for an anti-Islamist Muslim protest. Like many, I’m waiting for a large number of Muslims to break the silence, and speak up against radical groups.

    But what I get instead is the occasional Muslim scholar, often not liked by most other Muslim scholars. What I get instead is the Egyptian head Mufti saying that suicide bombing is wrong, except when targeting Israelis. What I get instead is half-swallowed mumblings on how peaceful Islam is. Or was. Or should be.

    The media? The media would be your best friend if you didn’t constantly shoot yourself in the foot. Interestingly enough, one of the few times a Muslim used the media well was in Fox News. He spoke about discrimination, yes. He spoke about racism. Then he said that whining and waiting and denial and burying your head in the sand won’t make things better.

    If the Muslim community in any Western country wants to change the negative image, maybe you should work on positive initiatives to at least counter the radical protests (and no, they aren’t that few) and idiotic acts like the time with those imams who constantly changed seats, and did a public prayer just before the flight, to get themselves noticed as suspicious.

    Reply
  44. JT
    September 16, 2007 at 9:17 pm

    Fady,

    These are examples of exactly what you are claiming is “a problem” in Islam. How can they be irrelevant to the argument? How can our fundamentally different views of Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) affect the fact that Christians don’t follow many of the teachings Moses (peace be upon him) came with?

    This is irrelevant because it is Muhammad we are talking about. He is the messenger, so the Koran is what Muhammad said it is, not Jesus, and not Moses. The Laws of Moses were given to the Jews. Christians did not appeared on the scene until after the time of Jesus. Christians live by what Jesus said, and Jesus did not violate the Mosaic Laws. Hypothetically, if going by the Koran, Jesus might have violated the Sabbath, but that is inconsequential compared to the 180 degree turn Muhammad did. Initially, Muhammad said there was no compulsion in Islam, then after he became powerful, he committed many heinous crimes, including murdering people who did not accept him as the best prophet of God. No compulsion in Islam, then kill them if they leave Islam. First, he said that killing one person is like killing all of humanity, then he did a complete 180 and slaughtered many humanities. He made up the rules as he went along.

    It amuses me how many anti-Islam and anti-Muslim people love to use this kind of language. In fact this is the norm for comments in LGF and most conservative blogs.

    Please focus on the pertinent points and try not to introduce a red herring about LGF, conservative blogs, or the vast Zionist conspiracy and how Jews control the world. How, then, can you explain all the horrific things Muhammad did? It’s in your holy books. Are you just too scare to question what you have been taught? Do you just cherry pick the parts that make you feel good and ignore the rest? If so, then that is your choice but no reasonable person can ignore what your own books said about Muhammad, a man who supposedly did no wrong.

    Reply
  45. Fady
    September 17, 2007 at 1:46 am

    Roman Kalik:
    “Fady, I am quite amused by the fact that, while accusing others of stereotyping and hatred, you mention the good old “Chosen People” argument, or slur rather.”

    In Orthodox Jewish thought, Jewish people are considered the chosen people of God. It’s not a slur, it’s a fact. Muslims also believe that Beni Israel were the chosen people of God, but not after they stopped following his orders (Surat Al-Baqara.)

    While I certainly have no problem with Jewish people freely practicing their faith in my country, I have tons of problems with fundamentalist Jews and Christians using faith to justify actions only identical to those of other supremacists around the world.

    If it’s not supremacy that to this very day, Palestinian people are denied the right to return to their original villages and homes, while ANY Jewish man is allowed to fulfil Aliyah to that place on pure religion/race grounds (I hope you don’t consider Aliyah a slur either!) , if that’s not supremacy, then there’s nothing really such as supremacy.

    (Information about Aliyah from a Jewish religious Web site: http://www.dccsa.com/greatjoy/aliyah.htm)

    What’s funnier, is that they justify this misery by saying that “Israel must stay a Jewish majority state.” Which again is deep stuff..

    (Wikipedia’s “Palestinian right of return” has lots of citations)

    They (under the support of their religious friends, all in the name of God) did exactly the same thing here in the Sinai (in settlements like “Yamit” near the Egyptian city of Arish, for example.) Probably they’ll do the same thing if they ever take over the place again.

    Again, these are FACTS. Actions taken and supported by people everyday in the name of God. Either refute them with proper evidence or just accept them. But don’t give me the “you’re an anti-semite” phase because I’m not.

    “If the Muslim community in any Western country wants to change the negative image, maybe you should work on positive initiatives to at least counter the radical protests (and no, they aren’t that few) and idiotic acts like the time with those imams who constantly changed seats, and did a public prayer just before the flight, to get themselves noticed as suspicious.”

    So Muslims now should protest idiotic and suspicious acts, like praying in an Airport? Or else they should have a negative image in the media (actually it’s quite a progress that, unlike many, you didn’t claim that Muslim get a free pass in the media.)

    I once had a man give me WEIRD looks when I was performing Wudoo’ in Frankfurt/Main. Too bad he did not actually ask the police to arrest that evil wudoo-performing Muslim.

    I guess I should apologize for that too.

    Reply
  46. Fady
    September 17, 2007 at 1:47 am

    Roman Kalik:
    “Fady, I am quite amused by the fact that, while accusing others of stereotyping and hatred, you mention the good old “Chosen People” argument, or slur rather.”

    In Orthodox Jewish thought, Jewish people are considered the chosen people of God. It’s not a slur, it’s a fact. Muslims also believe that Beni Israel were the chosen people of God, but not after they stopped following his orders (Surat Al-Baqara.)

    While I certainly have no problem with Jewish people freely practicing their faith in my country, I have tons of problems with fundamentalist Jews and Christians using faith to justify actions only identical to those of other supremacists around the world.

    If it’s not supremacy that to this very day, Palestinian people are denied the right to return to their original villages and homes, while ANY Jewish man is allowed to fulfil Aliyah to that place on pure religion/race grounds (I hope you don’t consider Aliyah a slur either!) , if that’s not supremacy, then there’s nothing really such as supremacy.

    (Information about Aliyah from a Jewish religious Web site: http://www.dccsa.com/greatjoy/aliyah.htm)

    What’s funnier, is that they justify this misery by saying that “Israel must stay a Jewish majority state.” Which again is deep stuff..

    (Wikipedia’s “Palestinian right of return” has lots of citations)

    They (under the support of their religious friends, all in the name of God) did exactly the same thing here in the Sinai (in settlements like “Yamit” near the Egyptian city of Arish, for example.) Probably they’ll do the same thing if they ever take over the place again.

    Again, these are FACTS. Actions taken and supported by people everyday in the name of God. Either refute them with proper evidence or just accept them. But don’t give me the “you’re an anti-semite” phase because I’m not.

    “If the Muslim community in any Western country wants to change the negative image, maybe you should work on positive initiatives to at least counter the radical protests (and no, they aren’t that few) and idiotic acts like the time with those imams who constantly changed seats, and did a public prayer just before the flight, to get themselves noticed as suspicious.”

    So Muslims now should protest idiotic and suspicious acts, like praying in an Airport? Or else they should have a negative image in the media (actually it’s quite a progress that, unlike many, you didn’t claim that Muslims get a free pass in the media.)

    Reply
  47. girl4cairo
    September 17, 2007 at 2:18 am

    I agree with you totally. The need to grow up and be a bit more considerate to others needs.

    I get asked all kind of questions nowadays when I chat online to my weird Egyptian / Muslim friends since it’s Ramadan time, ewww! “Sayma walla zay kol sana?”, “betsally?”. No assholes, I don’t fast and I don’t pray. Why the fuck can’t you just mind your own filthy business and leave other’s alone to live their lives the way they want it to be not the way YOU fucking want it to be?!

    Reply
  48. Fady
    September 17, 2007 at 3:49 am

    JT

    “This is irrelevant because it is Muhammad we are talking about. ”

    I kindly disagree, “Abrogation means that Allah can’t decide right the first time”, was what we were talking about.

    “The Laws of Moses were given to the Jews. Christians did not appeared on the scene until after the time of Jesus.”

    Sure, but since Jesus Christ and Moses both preach the same religion, and abrogation is ungodly, then Christians must follow every single set of laws that all previous prophets preached, and non of them should be in any contradiction.

    “Hypothetically, if going by the Koran, Jesus might have violated the Sabbath, but that is inconsequential compared to the 180 degree turn Muhammad did.”

    In Islamic view, all Prophets and Messengers (peace be upon them) preached one religion, one faith: that is to worship Allah, and not combine any other deity with him (Shirk.) However, every nation (ummah) has it’s own Shariah (law). All Muslims agree that the Islamic Shariah abrogates Shariahs of previous nations.

    It’s not a problem or a contradiction when God with all his wisdom abrogates one of his laws, (Sabbath for example,) it is definitely for a divine reason and not because “he cannot get it right the first time.”

    In Surat Al-Baqara:

    http://quran.al-islam.com/Targama/dispTargam.asp?l=arb&t=eng&nType=1&nSora=2&nAya=106

    (btw. I am not cherry-picking the Quran. I’m quoting verses
    that directly relate to the subject.)

    “Are you just too scare to question what you have been taught?”

    Nope. I believe in every single word of the Holy Quran. And I believe Mohammed is the messenger from God. I try to know as much as possible about the great faith of Islam. I knew people who are devout Muslims, others who don’t believe that Islam is the religion to follow, and others who don’t believe in faith at all. And it has all helped me.

    “Do you just cherry pick the parts that make you feel good and ignore the rest? If so, then that is your choice but no reasonable person can ignore what your own books said about Muhammad, a man who supposedly did no wrong.”

    A “Muslim” who does not believe in a single word in the Quran is not really a Muslim. So why would I even have the intention to do that?

    I remember a couple of years ago the Pope or some major figure said that the Bible actually had some historic inaccuracies, and Christians should not take them for granted. In the Quran, God challenges the unbelievers to find a contradiction in it, or create a Sura like it. Judging from what I’ve seen so far, I think this by itself is a great evidence of the authenticity of the Holy Quran.

    “Initially, Muhammad said there was no compulsion in Islam, then after he became powerful, he committed many heinous crimes, including murdering people who did not accept him as the best prophet of God. No compulsion in Islam, then kill them if they leave Islam.”

    The Quran is always consistent, what many people don’t understand
    is that Islam is very, very clear about warfare. And
    this, in my opinion, is too much to it’s credit.

    Many people (mostly Muslims) claim that Islam is peace all the way,
    while others (mostly anti-Islamic people) claim that it is war and violence all the way. (These types often go to great lengths of imagination, claiming that Muslims are allowed to commit all kinds of crime against their non-muslim neighbors.)

    I don’t believe that neither stance is true.

    Islam is peace
    to those who are peaceful and hold their agreements to the Muslims, no matter whether they’re Muslim or not, and clearly is warfare to those who want every Muslim wiped off the map, again, the Quran is very clear about this:

    http://quran.al-islam.com/Targama/dispTargam.asp?l=arb&t=eng&nType=1&nSora=2&nAya=190

    When some people, who are heavily opposed to Islam and everything Muslim, take parts of these verses to convince people that Islam is a religion of violence, is it Islam’s fault?

    They combine it with a multitude of misinformation; that Jihad means “holy war” (it actually means “Struggle”, in the cause of Allah, in a variety of areas.) They claim that Islam teaches it’s followers to love war and terrorism, while the Quran and the Hadith are UTTERLY clear that Muslims dislike fight, and should not initiate it, while it’s their fate, and it may be in their good.

    http://quran.al-islam.com/Targama/dispTargam.asp?l=arb&t=eng&nType=1&nSora=2&nAya=216

    “He made up the rules as he went along. ”

    Wouldn’t the logical result if that were true, that there would be no more Muslims today?

    Especially today, that there are tens and maybe hundreds of organizations that
    are waiting for every Muslim convert to make him/her the next Ayaan Hirsi Ali?

    I live not-too-far from the residence building of an Islamic university
    here in Egypt
    , and I tell you, there is an awful LOT of new Muslims probably from every single part of the world. I know many of them personally.

    Islam happens to be unmatched in its rate of growth, and that completely counters these claims.

    Reply
  49. Roman Kalik
    September 17, 2007 at 5:25 am

    Fady, I am an Orthodox Jew. That you feel arrogant enough to tell me what I believe is hilarious.

    As for Aliyah, you’re mixing the religious aspect with the national (and no, Jews aren’t a race. Or otherwise we’re the most diverse racial group known to man, ranging from the blackest black to the whitest white). Aliyah for Jews is due to the fact that we have the national identity already, an identity that has been retained for millenia. Retaining a Jewish majority is a matter of survival, of not becoming a minority in the very country rebuilt to assure our survival and freedom. The Palestinians, if they get around to wanting a state of theirs at our side rather than wanting everything (the Palestinian state could have been founded in 1948, in 1967, and many times over the 1990s), can and should have a state, and this is where the Palestinian refugees (kept such by the Arab states unto the third generation) should return. I will not accept the idea of two Palestinian states, one with Jews and one without, and that will be the end result of your suggested “return” policy. I do not trust the Palestinians to retain my rights, to allow me to practice my religion, to allow me to retain my culture. Which is why I do not support their return after their Arab neighbor friends came over in 1948 to try and exterminate us.

    As for Yamit, you do remember that it was torn down by the State of Israel, right? You know, the same land grubbing state of religious fanatics. Apparently a peace agreement was more interesting. And Meir Kahane’s party, the one fanatic in this business, was outlawed because he was indeed a fanatic and a supremacist. Funnily enough, it was yet again that very religious fanatical Jewish Israel that did this. How evil of Israel.

    Return to this discussion when you can admit your ignorance.

    As for praying in an airport, just doing that is one thing. Doing it to draw attention (and later doing the same within the plane) is quite another. But start with protesting against fanatics, which you haven’t yet.

    Reply
  50. John Cunningham
    September 17, 2007 at 2:26 pm

    As if evening Cairo rush hour traffic wasn’t brutal already.

    Reply
  51. John Cunningham
    September 17, 2007 at 2:30 pm

    I have an idea, if you can’t eat after sunrise and can’t start again until sunset why not pick the month that has the days when daylight is at its least, would that be February?

    Reply
  52. John Cunningham
    September 17, 2007 at 2:51 pm

    Reading everyones writings arguing over books written by people fourteen-hundred to three thousand years dumber than we are dumb, as if they were all to be taken as gospel is interesting.

    Reply
  53. Toady
    September 17, 2007 at 3:05 pm

    Fady;

    You said “If it’s not supremacy that to this very day, Palestinian people are denied the right to return to their original villages and homes”

    The majority of Palestinian ‘refugees’ alive today are the children and grandchildren of the people who had fled. These folks have never lived in Israel. Not ever. They have never had a home there.

    You might want to ask yourself why these Palestinians, unlike all the other millions of refugees created during last century’s wars, are still living in ‘camps’. Why won’t the Arabs give them citizenship and new lives in new places, like the Europeans did with all their refugues? Why are they looked down upon in the middle-east? Why were tens of thousands of them expelled from Kuwait and other Gulf countries during Gulf War 1??

    If the Arabs are so concerned about the poor Palestinians, why don’t they put their money where their mouths are and treat them a little better?

    Reply
  54. The Profit MoMo
    September 17, 2007 at 9:27 pm

    Nice post monkey! Seems like you have riled a few people. Alas one cannot blame people who are behaving in a truly islamic manner by mentally submitting to the will of Allah (that is not thinking for themselves at all) and ALSO depriving themselves of Allah’s Snackbar – i.e. the proteins and starches necessary for effective though.

    Happy Ramadan people. :)

    Reply
  55. The Profit MoMo
    September 17, 2007 at 9:27 pm

    “Effective thought” I mean…

    Reply
  56. JT
    September 19, 2007 at 5:26 pm

    I had post #57 up but it’s gone now. Sam, did you delete it?

    Reply
  57. ella
    September 21, 2007 at 3:15 am

    Phobos
    You got it mixed. The rape should be witnessed by 4 people not an adultery, that’s what is ridiculous in sharia. You should know better.

    @ Rays comment 35

    There is no compulsion on the individual to accept Islam. During the time of the Islamic State, Muslims and Non-Muslims lived side by side in Peace, and re are required to debate with them in the kindest manner when conveying Islam.
    What do you call Islamic State?
    .
    Under Umayyad empire, dhimmi, meaning Christian and Jews had to pay quite a large tax on top of other taxes if they were to stay non-Muslims, that was one of the reasons many people converted to Islam.
    You are forgetting far-from-peacefull conquest of India, failed conquest of Europe, piracy and other things like that, all under Islamic State.
    I do not have time to mention other conquests and their results for conquered people.
    Of course depending on overall situation in this or that muslim empire (aka Islamic State) Christians and Jews were not always persecuted. But they were second class people, usually a scapegoats when situation got bad and the peace you are talking about is simply a fiction.

    You mentioned abrogation. One of the abrogated verses in Qu’ran is the verse saying that “there is no compulsion in religion” That is a verse 2:256 which along with verses 2:62 and 5:69 was abrogated by the verses 3:85 – 6 and 9:73
    Could you please quote the verses which abrogated the one you mentioned or should I do it for you?

    Reply
  58. Phobos
    September 21, 2007 at 10:32 pm

    I don’t know where you get your facts from Ella, …. this is regarding witnesses and adultery:

    If a person makes an allegation of adultery against another person (male or female) he or she must produce four witnesses to support such an allegation; otherwise, he or she is guilty of slandering, which is a grave offense in Islam, for we are not to tarnish the honor of anyone.

    A woman who has been raped cannot be asked to produce witnesses; her claim shall be accepted unless there are tangible grounds to prove otherwise. To insist that she provide witnesses is akin to inflicting further pain on her. If anyone refutes her claim of innocence, the onus is on him to provide evidence, and she may simply deny the claim by making a solemn oath, thus clearing herself in public. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “The onus to provide evidence falls on the one who makes a claim, and the one who denies (the same) can absolve himself or herself by making a solemn oath to the contrary.”

    As for a spouse who witnesses his or her partner committing adultery and the other party denies it and they are unable to provide witnesses, they are, if they so desire, to part company by repudiating each other by engaging in what is known as a solemn oath and prayer of curse (li`an). It is described thus in the Qur’an: “And those who accuse their wives, and have no witnesses but themselves, then the testimony of each of them shall be a testimony sworn by God repeated four times, that he is indeed truthful. And the fifth (oath) is that God’s curse be upon him if he is lying. And it shall avert punishment from her that she testify a testimony repeated and sworn by God four times, that he is lying. And a fifth (oath) that the wrath of God be upon her, if he has spoken the truth” (An-Nur: 6-9).

    http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503548970

    Reply
  59. ella
    September 23, 2007 at 12:35 am

    @Phobos
    I have been talking about [b]rape[/b[, you are talking about adultery. With rape you need four witnesses in countries like KSA and many other muslim countries.
    The scholars are unanimously agreed that the rapist is to be subjected to the hadd punishment if there is clear evidence against him that he deserves the hadd punishment, or if he admits to that. Otherwise, he is to be punished (that is, if there is no proof that the hadd punishment for zina may be carried out against him because he does not confess and [b]there are not four witnesses[/b], then the judge may punish him and stipulate a punishment that will deter him and others like him). There is no punishment for the woman if it is true that he forced her and overpowered her. (Al-Istidhkaar, 7/146).
    http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1125407868541
    Now that is theory, in practice woman’s word is worth 1/2 man’s word. That is clearly stated in Qu’ran, although some muslim disagree with application of this verse. In cases of rape woman is seldom believed and in many countries people say that usually fault lays with woman i.e. she (somehow) started it.

    Once again I repeat, I am talking about four witnesses for rape, for rape not for adultery. Read once again what I wrote.

    Reply
  60. JT
    September 24, 2007 at 4:28 pm

    My last post to Fady was nuked by the spam detector, but for anyone who’s interested, they can fine a more articulate thesis here. It was written by Ismahan Levi, a former Muslim and incredibly bright woman.

    Reply

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