I was checking out Al Masry Al youm's limnited English section when I found this article:
In his speech at the symposium organized by the cultural committee of
the Syndicate of Journalists the day before last, Dr Mohamed Kamal
Imam, Professor and Chairman of the Islamic Sharia Department at the
Faculty of Law of the University of Alexandria, said why do not we pass
a law expressly prohibiting marriage between followers of different
faiths, especially in Egypt, so that to eliminate the problems that
could occur because of this marriage and set off tension between
Muslims and Christians.He stressed that there is no
contradiction between Allah's words: "Then whosoever will, let him
believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve" and "There is no
compulsion in religion" on the one hand and the punishment of apostasy
in Islam, because the first case – according to him – deals with the
belief and carrying out punishments.Kamal pointed out that
Islam is a universal religion that realistically recognizes other
religions and allows Muslims to marry non-Muslims and that it is the
only religion that permits this, but enacting a law preventing
matrimony between Muslims and followers of other religions would
eliminate many problems
Ok, so they brought up two issues here, and they are wrong on both. First of all, preventing Interfaith marriage is not up to them. It was granted by Islam and it's not their place to claim that preventing them would prevent the problems that are usually caused by the secterian strife between Egypt's Muslims's and Christians. That's like trying to spite you wife so you chop off your dick. Interfaith Marriage isn't the problem, the problem is co-existance. And until we learn to co-exist, the problems won't go away.
The second Issue is the punishment of apostacy in Islam. There is NO SUCH THING. The Symposioum of Islamic Studies, the greatest, most distinguished and most Respected Islamic Studies Center in the World had issues a Statement that there is no such thing in Islam or in Sharia. The Idea of Punishment for Apostacy is based on the "Reddah" War that happend after Prophet Mohamed died, where many people who converted to Islam to stay out of Harm's way decided they didn;t need to do so anymore and tried to seperate themselves from the religion and its leaders. Facing this threat, Khalifa Abu Bakr made the decree that they and anyone who follows their example should be killed in order to to stop a massive drain of converts that he feared would take place. It was a political decision, pure and simple. Abu Bakr is not the Prophet, nor was he ever contacted by God about this, and therefore his decision is not part of the Sharia or the Sunnah and should therefore not be looked upon as such. And what drives me crazy is that this guy should know this. But upon reading the rest of the article I realized this might've been the meeting of crazies anyway. Check this out:
Dr. Nasr Farid Wasel, former Egypt Mufti, said that all scholars agree
that the punishment for rejecting Islam is punishable by death, because
Islam did not sanction apostasy, because it did not force or coerce any
one into embracing Islam, therefore a renegade must either repent or be
condemned to the punishment of apostasy, because it is the right of
Allah, the Almighty.
No mention of those who were just born in it. Note that!
Whoever embraces Islam out of his own volition has made a contract with
Allah and with the group, therefore he has no right to revoke it,
because he embraced Islam after becoming fully convinced and he should
bear the responsibility of his decision", said Wasel
That's some Punitive Clause right there. You should've read the fine Print Ahmed. Defaulting on this contract is punishable by death, babe!
And now for the coup de gras, I give you Dr. Mohamed Al Musayer.
Dr. Mohamed Sayed Ahmed al-Musayer, professor of religion and
philosophy at al-Azhar University, said that it is illogical for a
Muslim to give up his religion, because Islam is a religion of reason
and proof and its great miracle is the Holy Koran and that there is no
other religion in the world that harmonizes with the mind, as people
around us worship cows, stones, trees and humans."Some of
those who have unstable ways of thinking believe that they are
defending Islam when they abolish some punishments, including the
punishment of apostasy. Those people have nothing to cry over, as they
deny the punishment of theft today and tomorrow they will deny the
punishment of adultery and after that the punishment of apostasy.It
is a series to nullify Islam. Those who deny the punishment of apostasy
impugn the scholars and jurisprudents throughout the ages, since the
application of this punishment is clearly defined in the Holy Koran
before the Hadith (Prophet Mohamed's traditions). Allah says: 'Truly,
if the Hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and those
who stir up sedition in the City, desist not, We shall certainly stir
thee up against them: Then will they not be able to stay in it as thy
neighbors for any length of time'", said al-Musayer."The
punishment is unequivocally and indisputably mentioned in the Hadith:
'whoever changed his Islamic religion kill him'. These are
incontrovertible Islamic facts. We are not ashamed of what we have, but
those antagonizing Islam feel so ashamed, because they protect
homosexuality and same-sex marriage. We do not want rifts in the
community, because this is a Jewish scheme and all Islamic communities
are infiltrated by the Mossad", said al-Musayer.
Yeah. I don't think any zionist schemes are necessary Dr al Musayer, not with you around. You do a fantastic job yourself!
Motherfucker!
Leave the punishment of those who leave the faith to the Almighty, should He deem it necessary. Simple and straightforward, you would think, but nooo…
And the last part, about Mossad agents supposedly acting to pervert Islam… There are more than one Billion Muslims! The Mossad doesn’t even have the *manpower* to do something as pathetic as penetrating every Muslim community! Gotta love conspiracy theories, though.
Mish ma3uul. Can’t they be fired? Voted out? Impeached? Retired? What a piece of work ahead for the Muslim community.
Forget about true coexistence and friendship between Egyptian Christians and Muslims, who cares about that??
As long as we continue to cover up, hide and dance around the the increasing problems…well, that’s all that really matters.
It’s nice to see the meanest and harshest of Islamic “Scholars” dictating policy to the herds…
Oh, and one more thing.
“because Islam is a religion of reason
and proof and its great miracle is the Holy Koran and that there is no
other religion in the world that harmonizes with the mind, as people
around us worship cows, stones, trees and humans.”
Someone should tell the unrespected and non-esteemed Dr. Mohamed Sayed Ahmed al-Musayer that Christians don’t “worship humans.” This tired swipe at Christianity is getting really old.
I went to see Irshad Manji speak on Sunday. Her theme, as usual, was her excellent book, The Trouble with Islam (arabic pdf version downloadable free here: http://irshadmanji.com/). I’d recommend the book to all.
Her thesis: there’s NO problem with the religion itself. The problem is the mass of dogma obscuring the religion itself – and the willingness of so many to treat the dogma as if it were the religion. She calls for a return to ijtihad: studying the koran and searching for its meaning in one’s own life.
Your report adds evidence suggesting she may be correct. The most dogmatic of the “scholars” are making dogma up as they go along. Then imposing it on those who look to them for guidance.
Shameful.
Triple snort.
I read recently of Mario and Andrew Medhat Ramsis. They are 12 year old Christian twins who have been told that because their father became Muslim then so are they. They object and wish to remain Christian. Where is the “no compulsion in religion” here? There should be no religion section on identity documents and their should be complete religious freedom including choice of ones religion. The persecution of Coptic Christians is making Egypt and Islam look ridiculous and dangerous.
JT, did you miss the bit in the post that mentioned the Symposioum of Islamic Studies? And did you consider that this declaration by the aforementioned came after the old post that you link to, which possibly taught SM something he didn’t know before?
There’s also the difference between Sunni and Shi’a Islam, as well as between what *should* be and what happens in the field. As this very post illustrates, what happens in the field is a great deal worse.
“Islam is a universal religion that realistically recognizes other
religions and allows Muslims to marry non-Muslims and that it is the
only religion that permits this”
Is this man on crack? Other religions allow one to marry outside of their faith.
Maybe he’s a methhead.
“as people around us worship cows, stones, trees and humans”
The relationship many muslims have to the prophet sure looks like worship to me. The mere fact that to insult the prophet seemingly constitutes sacriledge is a clear indicator of Mohammeds (unofficial) divinity…
As mentioned earlier, there is also the stone in Mekka!
5.dick: Apart from the fact that I see ALL religions as a problem, I partially agree with you. The problem, however, is that Islam, contrary to at least Christianity, sees it’s holy scriptures as being the exact word of god and as such not disputable. The bible in comparison is a series of writings (supposedly) by men who were close to Jesus who have tried to put his teachings to writing. At this day and age, christians all over the world are willing to judge these writings from a logical and modern point of view. At the present time this is not possible for Islam, and therefore necessary change will be a long time coming…
Adam B
“Apart from the fact that I see ALL religions as a problem”
I hope you’re not putting up atheism as the ideal. The governments of Stalin, Pol Pot, and Mao were atheist and all did their best to suppress religion, often violently and with great cruelty. Atheism was no more tolerant than the religious philosophies.
And don’t forget the “stone” in the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem
Because of the apostasy thing,we’ll never know how many Muslims are really Muslims. Sure,a billion people are going through the motions,but how many really believe? A non-believer is out on a limb just declaring himself secular. Going any further than that is suicidal.
Adam B.:
Yes, but… like other religious texts – particularly the old testament, but also the new – the koran supposedly contradicts itself in plenty of ways. So there’s an element of pick-and-choose in any of our religions’ dogma, and the assertion that “this is the literal word of god” does not eliminate picking and choosing. It’s the differences in picking and choosing among christian sects that have led, historically, to the diversity of movements, from let’s say the spanish inquisition to methodist pacifists, not a questioning of whether or not the texts themselves are true.
The orthodox islamic way to pick is to declare that the later proclamations abrogate the earlier ones, but it’s not the only possible way.
So I’m optimistic. I don’t think we’re stuck with the wackier aspects of islam until all muslims become atheists. We just need the emergence of a healthy debate about which proclamations should be followed. Or even just a wider knowledge that there are, in fact, different proclamations on given matters.
Seems you have the same problem over there we have over here. Sharpton and Jackson can call themselves reverands. All they are are race hustlers. Over there you have those that call themselves doctors. All they are are religion hustlers.
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh…….please SM not when am fasting!
Look, you can say all you want about “no compulsion in religion”, but when countries like Malaysia, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iran, etc. are arresting people, punishing people and, unfortunately, killing people because they leave Islam, or insult the prophet, or draw a cartoon, or rip a page out of the koran, (I could go on and on and on here), you really should stop and think.
Are you going to believe what you read or what you can see with your own lying eyes?
To quote Indigo (from A Princess Bride) “You keep using that word. (in this case, compulsion) I do not think it means what you think it means.”
As for marrying outside of Islam, only men can do that, not women. I think all Muslims should examine what they get from Islam, and what they are denied. How easily are you coerced simply by being accused of not ‘being a good muslim’?
If it arrests you for walking like a duck, or talking like a duck, chances are it is a crime to be a duck, or in this case, an apostate.
Dr. Mohamed Sayed Ahmed al-Musayer, professor of religion and
philosophy at al-Azhar University, said that it is illogical for a
Muslim to give up his religion, because Islam is a religion of reason
and proof and its great miracle is the Holy Koran…
He must be in the Dept. of Redundancy Dept.
“It’s a religion of reason and I can prove it because the Koran says so!”
MY GOSH!!!! you are back to blogging this is awesome! Can’t believe it I haven’t checked in ages your blog. Good to see you back Monkey
“The governments of Stalin, Pol Pot, and Mao were atheist and all did their best to suppress religion”
They were Marxists, and Marxism is a religion in itself, with its own sacred books. They tried to suppress other religions. To a Marxist, Marx is the Prophet.
11. Toady:
Yes, if atheism is just defined as not believing in a god; not combined with some freakish political view, that incidentally requires atheism to exist. The regimes you mention were hard on religion because religion challenged their complete authority. Look at North Korea presently – the supposed wotship of The Great Leaderis as much a religion as is Islam or Christianity…
14. Dick:
I truly hope that you are right, but I’ll see it before I believe it. SM and a select other few (regardless of their political view, mind you!) a what keeps me believing that there is hope that the worlds second largest religion will eventually find a comfortable place in the modern world…
The standards of the University of Alexandria have sadly declined since the great Hypatia taught there.
Oh so now you are the freaking authority on Islamic fatwa’s … please … they got it wrong you say. Never stopped to question yourself?