No christians please

*Scroll down for UPDATES* 

Forsooth received an e-mail that is the Hijaby girl's equivalent to paradise: Sabaya. Owned by the female equivelant of Ahmed El Fishawy, Hanan Turk, it's a half hairsalon/half restaurant that is  just for girls, where no men are allowed to enter and no music will be played. Their promotional e-mail lists a number of perks to those who want to frequent the place:

 Advantges of SABAYA café
- You have the freedom of taking your veil/neqab off.
2- Meeting muslim girls who are willing to get closer to Allah.
3- Increasing your 'so7ba sale7a circle'.
4-Getting the opportuinity of being inspired by real stories by the same girls you meet.
5-You can have parties.
6-Learn how to shun sin…since You won't be exposed to songs or movies JUST CARTOONS AND RELIGIOUS SHOWS.
7- Get to meet Hanan Turk. heheheheheheheheheheheh
8-Enjoy the feeling that you'r making everything which is not allowed outdoors and Allah won't be mad at you :D ..

Attending sabaya will be very useful from both the life and religious
prespective, since YOu will be helping in changing the wrong
perceptions about both Neqabis/ Hegabis that were already inheritied
ages ago.

Sounds great, right? Well, just one more thing:

- First please Don't invite Christian girls , because they aren't allowed
to the place.. Second inform all your friends that if the number of
visitors increased remarkably in the coming year..inshAllah next year
they may be able to open a branch in mohandesen or down town ..We ARE

Yep. You read that correctly. They are barring christian girls. No Christian girls allowed in Sabaya. This has to be the first open for public place that bans people on the basis of faith, and it's seriously fucked up. I can't believe that this is happening in Egypt. I can't believe that people have gotten so fucked in the head that we now segregate based on religious beliefs. Unbelieveable.

I am just wondering how they will enforce their no Christian girls allowed policy. What are they gonna do? Put a "No Christians allowed" sign on the door? Card people on the door and check out their religious identity on their ID's? What if a Christian girl sneaks in? Are they gonna grab her and throw her out? Is this even legal?

 Well, here is their number and address:

Address: 6 Meet 3'amr street . . Midan Safir . . Masr El Gedida. if
u know the street that has Cook Door / McDonald's / Oriflame /Smiley's
) . . it's behind McDonald's . . when u see McD . . go right. . then
left . . Sabaya will be on ur left . . isA

Tel: 2240 2223 – 2240 2229

 So, if you are an egyptian with any sense of decency, you should call them and give them a piece of your mind. And if you are a member of the MB- and god knows they have been coming more often to this blog- well, this is the kind of place that is the inevtiable conclusion of your group's policies and ideology. This is what you are advocating. This is the Egypt that you want. Another version of Saudi. Well, assholes, it's not gonna happen. Take a good look, because this is the closest that you will ever gonna get to it.

This is the 21st century assholes, not the 10th, try to catch up!

Update: I was so incensed that I got this christian co-worker of mine- let's call her S- call them to see if they are for real. The first number didn't work, the second one did. Here is the transcript of the conversation:

S: Salamo 3alikom, Sabaya?

Sabaya worker : we 3alikom el salam, yes?

S: I read your email, and I was just wondering, I have a Christian friend, and she’s interested in Islam, is there any way I can bring her with me?

Sabaya worker: We only permit entry to Muhajabat

S: Even in your café?

Sabaya worker: Well no in the café you can come in, but she can’t.

S: I was just hoping I can bring her with me, maybe she’ll come to her senses and god will bless her

Sabaya worker: Well we just don’t want to cause any discomfort to anyone, but god blesses us all.

S: Oh too bad, it would have been a great thawab

Sabaya worker: Ok I’ll ask Madam Hanan and can you call me back in an hour?

This is a true conversation.. and it would be funny if it wasn't so messed up!

Update: This other female friend of mine called them and asked them if it's true that Sabaya is for Hejabis and Niqabis only, and they confirmed it. When she asked them if that means no christian girls are allowed, the lady said Yes, no christians, and no girl who doesn;t have her hair coverd in general. My Friend told them that she intends to sue them, and they said to "bring it". She fully intends to.


  1. it’s totally legal to ban any clientele u want to from anywhere…it’s private property.

  2. My ID says I'm Christian says:

    “since YOu will be helping in changing the wrong
    perceptions about both Neqabis/ Hegabis that were already inheritied
    ages ago.”
    at the risk of sounding cliche here, and maybe a little ironic given the topic…JESUS CHRIST!!!!! A7a ya3ni!


  4. There is a difference between what’s legal and what’s ethical Forsooth. I hope you realize that!

  5. The phone number is registered under the name: سعدية حسين محمود

    This is just what we need!!! religious discrimination and gender separation….
    2 in 1 Head&Shoulders!!!

    as if we need more of these two!!! i don’t think “suing” would work….does anyone have anything in mind to stop shit like that?

    fuckin a7a!

  6. petroushka says:

    Yeah, I wonder just which perceptions of muhaggabat and munaqqabat they’re going to change, all cloistered together and refusing to let anyone in who’s not like them. I would have thought that to change people’s perceptions, you must actually speak to those people and let them get to know you and learn that you’re more than your stereotype. Oh well. And just from my trip home today (a walk from the corniche to the Hadayek al-Maadi metro stop, a ride on the metro to Tahrir, a walk through Tahrir to the Cleopatra), it didn’t seem to me that muhaggabat are desperate for a place of their own—the whole city is theirs.

  7. Yalahwi!!!Hanan Turk must’ve gone crazy!
    Egyptian women already suffer discrimination, why make it worse? why we women should pour the poison we drink everyday into each other’s cups?

  8. While Iraq has been through hell and high water,they have come to the point of rejecting extremists. The Sandmonkey might even enjoy a visit. My own little prediction for the new year is that Baghdad will be a hot tourist destination for the Arab world.

  9. My first reaction to this was: SUE HANAN’S COVERED HEAD OFF!!

    Then when I thought about it for a second I realized that it was completely legal and constitutional since it is a private place not a public one. People pay money to enter. And not allowing Christian women is not out of discrimination on the basis of religion – it is actually out of a religious belief that it is haram for a nonmuslim woman to see a muslim woman uncovered. The discrimination actually falls on the non-veiled muslim girls on the basis of their un-veildness. Anyways – my second conclusion was that those people had the right to do whatever the fuck they please in terms of who to let in their place – since there are places, like those that serve alcohol, that refuse to let in veiled women – which by the way I totally support and not apologetic for – then why should they? especially that we should all respect the principle of freedom of religious practice

    Then I thought about it a little more… and SM brought to my attention the recent Supreme Court decision forcing the AMERICAN University of Cairo to allow Niqabi women to wear their niqab on campus… and the fact that when my mom heard me talking about it on the phone she freaked and said “well I’m gonna go over there and let them show me how they’ll stop me from entering without a veil”… and the fact that even in Saudi Arabia gender segregation is becoming less severe everyday… I though long and hard… and then I reached a conclusion – ITS ABOUT MONEY

    Yes – It is about money. Hanan Turk is a business woman. She played it right. She exploited the need of these girls to be able to just be girls and have a place to hang out and dress up and show their hair and wear short skirts. She gave them a place where the pride in them can be satisfied, yet disguised in religious drapery. And where they can go and meet her as well. The place pretty much sells itself. It is only the natural result of the Islamic pop culture that includes Fulla the muslim Barbie doll and Mecca Cola… Its not about religion or discrimination – its about money.

  10. I wonder, what would Ibrahim El Houdaiby have to say about that? He assured me in another post that islamists are for equal human & civil rights. Now is his chance, as well as other members of his organization, to prove whether they stand for all Egyptians, or for an ‘apartheid’ system. Do you really believe in what you said, or was it just ‘sanitized sound bites’ for the benefit of international community?

  11. ” it is actually out of a religious belief that it is haram for a nonmuslim woman to see a muslim woman uncovered.”

    Why,are they afraid the non-muslim woman will tell her male friends how nice the muslims girls hair looked or something? i’m no expert on Islam,but this haram stuff seems to depend on who your local cleric is.

  12. #12 – Very well said! Like I’ve said before in previous posts, Islamists say one thing in English and another in Arabic. Be careful lest they fool you.

    And who gives a shit what the motivation for this is, money or not. And who really gives a shit whether or not there are legal grounds to sue this stupid organization? The bottom line is this is RIDICULOUS! The mere fact that people are now thinking like this in Egypt is awful. I mean, it’s been fairly evident now for a while that the average Egyptian is, not so slowly, starting to morph into their Saudi counterpart, a Wahabbi.
    And what the hell happened to Hanan Turk? Know this former diva is helping plant the seeds of wahabbism in the minds of Egypt’s youth?!! There is a serious battle in Egypt right now and the wrong side is winning, badly. And if we keep listening to the Ikhwan/Islamists a takeover is probably fairly imminent. And then what? Iran? Pakistan? Saudi Arabia?
    And it’s NOT Egypt’s Christians that need to stand up and complain about something as ridiculous as this “Sabaya Organization” or any other sectarian issue, but it’s Egypt’s Muslims that need to stand up and speak up, like Sandmonkey…thank you! Without Egypt’s moderate Muslims speaking up I don’t really see any way to ebb this fundamentalist tide.

  13. oops. Know it’s #11′s post that I agreed with. It moved up as I was writing my long winded comment :)

  14. And that’s supposed to be “now”

  15. hesham gamal says:

    howa ento neseeto thakafetko el masreya we khalaas ba2ena so3odeyeen ???? la 7awl wala kowa ella bella !!!!!!!!

  16. Give it time and Ms. Turk will take off the veil and be banned at the door of her own paradise.

    Khalas, let the Christians open their own cafes and ban Muslims at the door.

    Gatkoo neela. With exception to Christian girls. ;-p

    Sincerely, a Muslim who hasn’t lost the plot just yet.

  17. Christian Girls can sue them as the woman who wore the Niqab sued the AUC
    though let them run the place it’s funny to see another place like Lesbo’s in real life

    Bs aren’t these veiled girls afraid of being photoed and scandalized
    Call me a paranoiac… after all camera phone are too tiny and easy

    I’m waiting for the consequences for such CAFE :D :D:D

  18. يبقى الجامعة الأمريكية كمان ليها حق تمنع دخول المنقبات

  19. I support a business’s right to admit whoever they want.

    That said, what a ridiculous caveat this is! Muslims should write letters of complaint to the place, or boycott or something. The previous poster said it correctly – what a shame these people think like that.

  20. just another doc says:

    :) )
    all these angry people …..everybody is so mad and sarcastic ….some people preparing to sue other ready to kill:PP
    but i just wonder……do all of u people know that all the night clubs….and most of the decent night spots in egypt prevent veiled girls from having access to the place……and i personally know quite a few people who got nearly thrown out just because they are veiled:)

    so now…when those veiled girls find a spot under the sun where they can get some privacy and be comfortable after being denied access to places they would have enjoyed…….when they do that …we just load our guns and shoot?:)

    i am also surprised because so many people see that egypt is running after the wehabi way …..have these people been to marina this summer? have they seen how guys and girls live there ? have u guys been to any pub lately and seen how are things over there?why didnt anyone say that we re running after the western world?:)

    look guys and girls….i am not a religious guy….i am anti veil even……and i myself go to night spots and enjoy it…….but i hate when people give biased opinions …and when they judge others for things they themselves often do ….

    just let everybody do as he pleases……live and let live…..u want to go to a place where u can make out with ur almost naked girl and ban girls with stupid veild from being there to watch it….fine……but if them girls want a place where they can feel comfortable with out anyone watching…i guess thats their right too…..

  21. Where does this backwardness come from?

    This is so disgusting……

  22. depressing. totally retarded.

  23. “There is a difference between what’s legal and what’s ethical Forsooth. I hope you realize that!”

    Thanks Sandmonkey u said it all!

  24. On the “how will they identify the christians” front – I’ll go with “they’ll only let in people who are veiled or in niqabs as they walk in from outside”

  25. I’m not going to get into the legality and ethics of the situation; that’s all been said. However, I’d like to point out that this is not the first instance of Christians being banned from entry or employment. I clearly remember the fast food chain Mo’men creating a huge stir 2 or 3 years ago when they posted a sign on all their branches stating that only women could only apply for jobs if they were veiled. That was basically an indirect way of saying no Christians allowed.

  26. @ doc #20

    I think you are confusing issues a bit.
    -Veiled girls are not admitted into night spots because of a dress code implemented by other muslims. The motive is not an exclusionary policy designed to cut off a group of people because of their religion. ( I find it a bit curious that ‘night clubs’ point is raised when these places offer alcoholic drinks! I always assumed that religiously oriented veiled women were not interested in frequenting them).
    - What would make veiled women uncomfortable in the presence of unveiled muslim women or christian women, other than a sub-culture which enshrines the exclusion and segregation of people who are even slightly different?
    -What is the percentage of the egyptian population which goes to marina as opposed to that which is subjected to wahaby brain washing in the mass media, local mosques, booklets etc?
    -Finally, the issue is not just whether a group of veiled girls like to congregate, it is stating that “christians are not allowed”. This is a concrete, actively discriminatory step which uses an elusive excuse like we feel uncomfortable . Why not also we feel uncomfortable eating in the same restaurant, sleeping in the same hotel, riding in the same bus..? Are we inching towards allocating christians to the back of the bus?
    I am fully aware that I exaggerated, but what I find more alarming and dangerous than the mail, is the attitude that sugar coats or seeks to excuse it.Apartheid can start slowly, with small insidious steps. It can also be a social a psychological apartheid not just a legal one. In all cases the result is ugly & shameful to all parties.

  27. i would very much like to see her try to sue them.
    and i’m sure all of you are aware that there are also many workplaces in egypt that don’t hire veiled women. i work at one.

  28. Damn Nony, you said it again!!!

  29. For those who are defending the rights of this place to ban non-mohajabaat/non-muslims on the basis that other places in Egypt ban mohajabaat, and i speak as a mohajabba myself.

    I would not ever want to be banned from a place because of the headscarf, it is ludicrous, and blatantly discriminatory. I would feel terribly uncomfortable by such treatment. On the same note, I would not want to subject another woman (or man) to such a feeling!! Why should we sink to their level!

    There is a gigantic difference between public decency (from which we have the no-nudity rule) and pretending to be uncomfortable with non-mohajabba women!!! this is STUPID!!

    Why cant we show our hair to a non-muslim WOMAN? come ON!!

    What angers me more is that the ban on christians (I cannot believe I am saying this!!!) is being done in the name of my religion!!!! I am so so sorry that this is being done!

    Listen, since they are invoking Islam, cant you get the religous council to intervene and DO something to maintain the message of friendship between all that Islam teaches (well taught me anyway).

    something must be done….

  30. nony,

    very very very well said.

    SM, you’re saying that ‘in your dreams’, the country is heading this way. Except it isn’t in our dreams, if you look at how the country has gone for the past 30 years. This is where the country is heading, no matter what gung ho statements you make on here.

    And you know what, all those anti mubarak folks are gonna tip the country that way. Being anti mubarak means you’re on the same side as the MB, unfortunately. Egypt will only ever have a semi dictatorship or a theocracy led by the MB. We can’t do democracy and we will never do democracy. Am I being pessimistic? Let’s take a quick look around the ME- see any democracies? Long live Mubarak.

  31. “There is a difference between what’s legal and what’s ethical Forsooth. I hope you realize that!”

    very well summed up as an earlier reader noted

  32. I doubt Christian women,or non-zealots of any kind,will be lining up at the door. If she hadn’t made an issue of the non-Christian policy,nobody may have ever noticed….LOL.

  33. So here are my thoughts. I have no problem of a facility limiting its patronage based on a “dress code”. We do it at pools, beaches, bars and other places.

    My problem is discrimination on the basis of religion. Not allowing non Muslim women to enter the facility is just blatant discrimination and should be condemned by every member of society. I would like to see a Christian woman wearing a headscarf and a cross and trying to enter. If they shall forbid her, I think it is more important to protest such bigotry than the government.

  34. @ 20 (just another doc)

    OK you absolutely have a point here.

  35. This is the most pathetic part: “…check out their religious identity on their ID’s?”

    Praise the day you rid yourself of that kind of public ID…Or is that the day when hell freezes over?

    Funny, the sun is shining brightly in my backyard.

  36. Non Muslims girls make Muslim girls uncomfortable because the unbelievers have cooties. I think it is nice that a business is providing an emotionally secure and cootie-free environment for certain Muslim women (those who have an aversion to cooties) to have their hair done while eating.


    i guess someone is afraid of muslima muff diving on kufar

  38. Saul…that’s just stupid and silly

    and Yochanan…that’s just disgusting…Grow the Hell UP already

    I would like someone who doesn’t have an agenda to provide legitimate religious evidence as to why a practicing Non Veiled Muslim women could not be in the presence of Muslim Veiled women at such a place….if it’s a place where religion is the focus and basis of their gatherings, then I don’t know that Christian women would even WANT to join such a place….

    Egyptians… you all may be but within unity there is diversity…like it or not…

  39. The best way to deal with these people is to not take them your business – this will get the point across.

  40. just another doc says:

    dear nony….wow…and i mean wow:)
    very well structured reply with very carefully chosen fancy vocab words here and there with added spice through open ended questions to make a grandiose impression:)
    really….great reply…i thoroughly enjoyed it myself …and i could take it as an example of decent smart argumentative reply a bit different than most of the superficial ones usually met in such forums….

    i ll try to be up to what u have thrown at me….so help me god:)

    first of all….the whole issue here is one word :”choice”……
    meaning that it doesnt really matter why veiled girls are banned from night spots…..but the issue is that they are denied their CHOICE to go there…..
    it doesnt really matter why would a veiled girl choose to go into a night spot…but the issue is that they choose to do so….and they cant.
    neither u nor me nor anyone has the right to judge those veiled girls asking them why they want to go into a night spot,it s their choice and their responsibility….and dont forget that most decent hang outs in egypt especially at night serve alcohol…
    and u have to remember that we re all having this argument because of a choice issue too…..christian girls being denied the choice to go into that restaurant….

    subculture which enshrines the exclusion and segregation of people who are even slightly different…wow:)
    what subculture and what segregation my friend?
    we have to admit first that it s in human nature to be racist….but on different levels….and it s very normal to be attracted and more comfortable with people who share the same backgrounds and beliefs but for sure not to the extent of completely excluding others and making them feel unwanted….and i never seen or felt that this is being practiced in our country to the extent of it becoming a subculture:) maybe i felt sexual discrimination when it comes to work in favor of the women though:))
    seriously….yes …as in every other place inhabited by man ….life is not fair or just…ad some people are judged according to things they shouldnt be judged for ….on both sides of the fence ….some people are discriminated for being muslims and others for being christians…and i have many examples for both cases…..
    but….. i believe that in here…it s much better than most places around us…and the examples are too many to be listed.after all …we live in a place where a regular guy likeme who is a muslim…have all and i mean ALL his best friends who are christians…..and believe me i am not an exception….

    as for ur question about what makes veiled females uncomfortable…well…u have to be a veiled girl to know this… s simply that a veiled girl is very much used to her wearing her veil whenever she goes out of the house….taking it off only when she s back home safely… her…trying to adapt to the idea that there is another place other than home where she can take the veil off with out feeling naked:) is that they do that in a place where all other people there share her own beliefs….and are doing exactly what she s doing…..that would make her accept the idea with out shyness nor discomfort….so simple…with out any subculture based on ……whatever fancy words u used my friend… is much simpler than this:)

    well…i certainly was not talking about farmers and workers in factories who constitute more than 70 percent of the population of egypt…i was talking about the upper middle and the upper class in egypt….as for those…they ALL go to marina my friend…and they all hang out at night…..and i find it very strange that u mention the wahabi brain washing in mass media…..god…have u seen the mass media lately ?:))))))) how many veiled hosts do u see on tv?how many religion based programs opposed to video clips ?how many koran related talks against 0900 ads:)
    have u even seen the latest american movies in theaters? god….the only thing they cut was the actual intercourse scenes:) not like before when every single kiss was censored …..i believe if there is brainwashing in the mass media ….it s towards westernization not the other way around…..
    and ur talking about local mosques?!!well……at least local mosques say their khotba in microphones…….while churches say theirs in private…..and if u giveme ur mail…..i can send to you quite a few very interesting speeches given in churches and u tell me about the subculture of segregation:)
    there are no victims here my friend….we re all guilty as charged… let s stop judging and pointing fingers at each other……

    as for for ur impressive closure…….i can only say “chapeau” as the french say…..very well said…..but in humble opinion…..i believe that when some female feels the frustration of veiled girls because of all the restrictions they have to endure because of the dress code they are committed to … she just provides a place where they can be at ease….and feel no shame or discomfort being amoung people who think the same…..i believe there is nothing wrong in that…..especially if this place is not a public library or a government facility or a hospital…it s a restaurant:) and dont forget that the minute these girls will step out of the restaurant they will be dealing with their christian FRIENDS at schools,faculties,clubs,work…..everywhere…….

    plz guys …let s not exaggerate here….let s not forget our major problems -and trust me we have many- ad concentrate on stuff that will lead us nowhere…..

    i am sorry everybody for this ridiculously huge reply ….but it was very hard for me to hold my thoughts so i hope i wasnt a big burden…..i just want to make sure u guys understand….i am not with anyone or against anyone….i am against bias and double standards…..i am sure many would disagree with me including my most respected friend nony…..but thats my opinion….and as the British said….let s agree to disagree:)

  41. Another doc

    Choice is one thing, racism and discrimination is another.
    In all your long-winded argument you are forgetting the main point.
    They do not ban un-veiled girls, they ban non-muslim girls, veiled or unveiled.
    If the point was a dress code than they could ban anyone they want, nobody would really protest.
    The point is, they do not ban specific dress, they ban specific religion.
    Baning specific religion is a religious discrimination.

  42. DisGGGGustinG!

  43. just another doc says:

    dear ella….obviously u have read what i have written very superficially because there was much more there to answer ur argument and more,i never said it was a dress code….i explained in details where these people come from….i cant blame u really…if i saw a post that long i would have hated to read it till the end too:P

  44. just another doc , just like you cant blame ella for misunderstanding you, we cant blame you for promoting bigotry and being racist.
    I am sure you feel the same when you cant go to a restaurant because you are muslim or to a country because you are arab. You can just understand where the people are coming from!

  45. just another doc says:

    thank god u cant blame me:))

  46. Fortunately God has nothing to do with this. Idiots have everything to do with it.

  47. why do they wanna do their hair if they are veiled or with the niqab, it doesn’t show anyway. I am not convinced that this is the place for good veiled/niqabed girls, why are they trying to make themselves look pretty? Who in the outside world are they looking to arouse exactly- coz that would be a sin on their head.

  48. doc#41

    Wow!!! What a long post! I never would have guessed that vocabulary could earn me all that sarcasm! Ma3lesh. Forgive me ! I promise I will try to avoid using any words that might even be remotely ” fancy” ;o)
    I have only enough time to respond to some points you raised:
    - I agree with you that a certain degree of “us” vs.”them” is part of human nature, however, that doesn’t mean that it is acceptable.
    - We are not discussing a private party but a public commercial place that offers a service for money& blatantly excludes a group because of their faith.. If it is acceptable to refuse clients because of their religion,where would you draw the line? Can you guarantee that this policy would not spread to restaurants, hotels, schools …
    - It is obvious from the later post of SM, & also comments on “sunnipath”, that it is not a question of feeling uncomfortable, but an attitude that views non-muslims as untrustworthy; “non-Muslim or wicked woman” was the expression used on sunni path site. this is the sub-culture i was talking about. Like you, I have close friends who are pious muslims, veiled, pray 5 times, went to the haj & umra…never have I heard from them any of this new-fangled wahabi terms. To discriminate against others because of their religion; to consider for even a moment that they ‘might take pictures or describe the hair of niqabis to their husbands’ is so ridiculous, it is really sad. This is so Saudi! another word for it would be paranoia: the world is full of wicked people with nothing better to do than conspire against their modesty. Do you really condone this world view? If the rules & interpretations that moslem women have to follow become increasingly complicated & excessive, the conclusion might end up being that it’s better for them to stay at home, no traveling abroad, no studying in western universities…
    -I sincerely hope you are not advocating that churches use microphones, good heavens doc, isn’t cairo noisy enough for you? (unless you are specialized in hearing aids ;o) ). I am very curious, how come you keep some church sermons?
    -Lastly, unfortunately, no one has the monopoly of bigotry.

  49. can i help it joooooish boys like christian girlies?

  50. just another doc says:

    dear nony….
    it s really sad that u took my admiring remarks as sarcasm… wasnt…trust me….i was very sincere in every word i said and i really enjoyed and respected ur posts…..both of them ……

    anyways….these arguments and counter arguments…..can take us into a vicious circle we wont be able to break……

    yes i have the ability and the arguments to argue with you and reply to every single issue u raised….and obviously u can do the same…..and we can go on like this forever……and since i am not interested in pillow fights….and since i am not here to convince anyone of my point of view…..being here just for presenting my opinion about a certain matter….which i did……
    then i think it would be best for me to call it a day and withdraw quietly….

    i had a certain point of view so i shared it with you and i listened to what others had to say about it…..and i respect every single opinion even different than my own ……even learned from those opinions……but now…it s time …as i said before……to agree to disagree:)

    thank u for ur time nony……been a pleasure……sincerely.

  51. just another doc says:

    dear nony….
    it is really sad that u took my admiring remarks as sarcasm… wasnt…trust me….i was very sincere in every word i said and i really enjoyed and respected ur posts…..both of them ……

    anyways….these arguments and counter arguments…..can take us into a vicious circle we wont be able to break……

    yes i have the ability and the arguments to argue with you and reply to every single issue u raised….and obviously u can do the same…..and we can go on like this forever……and since i am not interested in pillow fights….and since i am not here to convince anyone of my point of view…..being here just for presenting my opinion about a certain matter….which i did……
    then i think it would be best for me to call it a day and withdraw quietly….

    i had a certain point of view so i shared it with you and i listened to what others had to say about it…..and i respect every single opinion even different than my own ……even learned from those opinions……but now…it s time …as i said before……to agree to disagree:)

    thank u for ur time nony……been a pleasure……sincerely…..

  52. Ragab El-Khawaga says:

    In the case of this place what’s new is not the creation of a segregated space, it is the fact that it is openly so. The fact that they dont mind stating just reveals the fact that separation has become banal, so socially acceptable that it can be stated.

    As several stated christian women probably wouldnt have stepped foot in the place anyway. The trend in general is voluntary separation. Christians with chritians (church clubs), liberal muslims with liberal muslims (bar, clubs, beaches), mouhagat/mohgabat among themselves (the new place). The fact that it is stated doesnt change the fact that separation already exists.

    The larger problem is that segregation feeds itself. Muslims and christians dont mix all that much anymore and most women (especially if they dont work) have little chances of making a friend of the other religion. It is easy to ban/hate/bad mouth … somebody you dont know.

    Today a lot of muslims and christians live mostly separate. The question then is: In the long run, can sepearate be equal? Can separation produce equality? I dont believe so neither did the US supreme court back in the day.

    Whether you like the analogy or not the fact is separation (institutionalized or not) does not foster greater tolerance. When the demographics weight of the two groups is so unbalanced as it is the case in Egypt, separate will never be equal. The discriminations (fed by mutual ignorance) won’t balance out between the two groups. The smaller one will face harsher times.

    On a side note, I also wanted to mentioned that the coptic cathedral complex is another place where you can’t enter if you are of the wrong religion. I was schocked to see people sshow their wrist tatoos to the guard t get in.

  53. I’ve only skimmed the comments, but I’m surprised none of you have pointed out the stark, stark irony here. This place is for women who wear veils and scarves and only women wearing such things will be admitted but what do they list as the number one advantage of the place? YOU CAN TAKE IT OFF! Making people act like they’re proud to do something they don’t like doing is the kind of contradiction that will eventually tear Islam apart.

  54. Good point, Kafir. By Taliban standards those women business owners would be beaten or killed for organizing and subverting their sisters. Dead Christians or the intrusion of any other religious followers not an issue at all.

  55. In the real world, the direction of Islamic societies and nations is always towards more Sharia, more restrictions, more hostility. As one secular Turk said about the pressure to permit turbans on campus, “Once turbans are allowed, everyone will end up wearing them.” And not because they’re fun to wear.

    Takfiris and Wahabbists and the Muslim Brotherhood keep the pressure and deception up until a tipping point is reached after which they can do more than just persuade, they can enforce. And they say clearly that is what they want to do; why don’t you believe them?

  56. I just want to make things clear. Veiled woman can’t take off their veils in front of other non-muslim people. That’s why chirstians are banned.
    What’s wrong with the place? Veiled girls wanna go out, take off their veils and feel comfy. It’s their right.
    I do admit that i don’t like the way they are advertising about the café, though.

  57. I’d like to reply to Anna who said in comment #50:
    anna Says:
    November 27th, 2007 at 6:13 pm
    why do they wanna do their hair if they are veiled or with the niqab, it doesn’t show anyway. I am not convinced that this is the place for good veiled/niqabed girls, why are they trying to make themselves look pretty? Who in the outside world are they looking to arouse exactly- coz that would be a sin on their head.

    Anna, do you dress up and try to look pretty to arouse men? If a bunch of girls came to visit you at home, would you meet them in your pjamas and your hair all messed up?
    Veiled girls are just like unveiled ones. They love to look pretty but in the right place. At their home, with family and with other females. Imagine you covering up your hair and every part of your body. It’s really difficult and needs a strong will. So at last they got a chance where they can go out and be comfortable somewhere.

  58. Wasnt Hanan Turk a former prostitute? whats she doing all religeous now? I swear Egypt had gone psycho, I say we do what France did and ban hijab in general. Theres nothing wrong with being modest… Egyptians these days tend to be either overly religeous or the polar opposite… what happened to the old days … its a shame to see us get more and more retarded by the day…

  59. by had i mean has …

  60. FOR those who are asking about the religious rule that bans a muslim girl from uncovering in front of a non-muslim one … I asked a muslim friend and she said because a non-muslim girl is considered a foreigner to the muslim girl. and that does apply on the non-veiled muslim girl too ,, because in that case she is considered not honest or not faithful and in that case she is a foreigner too to a muslim girl. I am not sure if this is a true religious rule but it makes me very very frustrated and disappointed.

    I don’t know how some people think it’s just a hang out place for a group of people ….

    Can’t they realize that it’s a plain abuse of religion .. and profiting from a deteriorating situation in Egypt …

    May God burn all Wahabis and their money and their thought

    If there is something that can be done please suggest it and I am in ..

  61. For those who are a cursing the wahabis and calling a wahabi website, a bit more research might be in order.

    The opinion that Muslim women cannot show their hair to non-Muslim women is from the Hanafi school of thought.

    The Hanbali school of thought states that a woman can uncover in front of another women regardless of religion. This is the school of thought most popular in Saudi Arabia. The Maliki school also has a similar opinion.

    The Shafi school permits women to show their arms to the elbows, legs to the knees, hair and neck, which is not so much less then the limits between Muslim women anyway. The Shafi school is also the most commonly followed schoolf of thought in Egypt, hence the bafflement this no-Christians ruling has caused to some Egyptian women.

  62. after reading the blog to the end I realized that Sabaya does not allow any unveiled girl/woman in in general and not only Christian women as it is mentioned in the title, so this title is misleading!

    Although I do not agree with this policy, they are not the first ones to apply it. Many restaurants and cafes do not allow veiled women to enter and I am not talking about pubs! We all know about this and nobody seemed to bother,so, why are we suddenly so angry and aggressive when the rule was turned around ??

  63. to #68/Dina on 9 December: here the reply I received from Sabaya on my question why they are inciting separation. They DO say explicit that they do not want Christians in there, whether veiled or not. I quote (with some editing for better reading):

    “… No U have to understand something dear. As Muslims if (we) wear neqab or hegab it is obligatory that (we) don’t show (our) face or hair to a non-muslim …so it is non-sense that girls would invite men or non-muslim women to the group and this is for our benefit we are not being offensive at all!!!!! that’s why it is specialized for girls only Muslim ones u see what WE meant to say :) I hope u r not offended in any way.. but to follow a certain principle u have to stick to all it is dimensions either u like or not it is called religion of submission. Submitting yourself to Allah’s will. So we are ordered not to show ourselves to non-muslim ladies and that’s why we submit to Allah by not letting girls who are non-muslims to the place!”

    This i pretty clear and explicit.

    Thank you to safiya post #66 for the feedback on the teachings from the different schools in Islam.

    I share the call for a comment from a religious institution, say Al Azhar? Whatever the result, it would enlighten us on the state of affairs with regard to unity in diversity in Egypt … let’s see what the supposedly wise men (and women) have to say?

  64. oh, and forgot to ad: to Dina post #68 – yes, discrimination in all forms is wrong.
    Whether I am veiled and want to join friends who are going to have a drink, or I’m not veiled and would like to join friends at a place like Sabaya, it should be my decision to do so or not. Not the place telling me whether I have to stay outside or not. However, I’d have to play by the rules and accept other people’s behaviour in those places. Same goes for people wearing niqab near a swimming pool etc etc. As long as all live and let live, we can exist one next to the other. The problems do start, IMHO, once one group starts impose their rules on others. In the case of Sabaya, I would have no problem if they said you need to be dressed properly, respect the feelings of those for whom the place is set up. so if I do not like that, I would not go there. That’s different from telling someone she cannot go there due to being Christian.

    In essence, my personal problem with any place sporting some kind of discriminatory policy is the act of discrimination as such.

  65. hanan tork , how is your housband ha ha ha, tel him mohamad at midan eldoke say hello , shame on you ya hanan . ha ha ha

  66. CarpetCaptain says:

    Didnt Hanan Tork’s husband choose the dog over her? I remember reading an article a few months back on alarabiya where she was interviewed and she gave the reason of her divorce as the dog. i’m freaking serious here. apparently once she wore the hijab she did not want having the dog around anymore and needles to say her husband found the dog more useful and faithful. He ended up choosing the dog and showing her the door.

    I can’t believe that Egypt has come to this. Whats more disgusting is that only a small minority of muslims have found this offensive and had the decency to speak up against it. Whats next? Muslim only supermarkets, lawyers, doctors ?

    All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing

  67. why do they wanna do their hair if they are veiled or with the niqab, it doesn’t show anyway. I am not convinced that this is the place for good veiled/niqabed girls, why are they trying to make themselves look pretty? Who in the outside world are they looking to arouse exactly- coz that would be a sin on their head.

  68. thankk gg

  69. thank you sir.

  70. thanks for all admin