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The Mohamed Teddy Bear..for sale on E-bay, and comes with this warning:
For sale due to a change in the school curriculum.
Mo is a delightful little bear who all children would love, but not some adults.
Condition: As new, but by time of delivery may have 40 scratch marks on back.
Oh man! We are never gonna hear the end of this!
November 30th, 2007 at 8:38 pm
GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!
Tell me about it man. This is utterly pathetic. I’m embarrassed and ashamed.
November 30th, 2007 at 11:34 pm
Gentlemen,
My crap detector is buzzing really loudly over this one.
I’ll bet the teddy bear naming was just an excuse. So, who is trying to steal this woman’s property, or intimidate the parents, or force concessions from the school principal?
This kind of thing is never really about religion.
December 1st, 2007 at 2:06 am
I don’t totally understand why anyone would object to having a teddy bear named after Mohammad. After all, teddy bears are by definition cute and cuddly. What’s wrong with that? That’s flattering. I mean, there are worst things one could say that really would be blasphemy, but teddy bears are nice. What’s wrong with nice?
December 1st, 2007 at 2:08 am
OK, ok … I’m kidding. But, really, this is so trivial. Why are so many people overreacting, even calling for this teacher’s death? This is insane.
December 1st, 2007 at 3:08 am
SudaneseDrima:
GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!
Tell me about it man. This is utterly pathetic. I’m embarrassed and ashamed.
Wait ’til you see Muslims sawing off heads while chanting Allahu ackbar…..
Oh, wait…
December 1st, 2007 at 5:59 am
Okay, another Joanne posting here……..well, at least they aren’t calling for the stoning of the child…..you just never know with these people; logic or common sense doesn’t ever seem to enter the equation.
December 1st, 2007 at 6:45 am
To be sure, I don’t know much about the AP writer Mohamed Osman but I was outraged by his characterization of Sufi “tenet” in his 11/30 article that I wrote to the AP:
I am writing to express my dismay at Mohamed Osman’s misrepresentation of Sufi belief in his article Teacher hidden as Sudan mob urges death.
A Sufi would NEVER NEVER EVER call for someone’s death, does not condone mob psychology, and certainly would deride blind obeisance to any prophet. Sufis are considered heretics by many Haditha oriented demagogues and routinely martyred by jihadis for their intelligence and worldview. These people won’t eat an animal, for heaven’s sake. They love Jesus as well as all the prophets. I am shocked that this AP writer would present Sufism as a polemic, atavistic philosophy that judges anybody for a misunderstanding of cultural values.
The man should be ashamed for allowing this sad example of untruth to reach a global readership.
I wonder about his motive. It certainly is not accuracy in reporting.
December 1st, 2007 at 7:13 am
Teacher’s actions were totally innocent of cause. This ebay teddy bear is designed for insult.
Well, you reap what you sewn. I am sure there will be more to come.
December 1st, 2007 at 8:18 am
SM
That’s what I fund trying to access eBay:
This listing (270192422059) has been removed or is no longer available.
Hmm……….somebody got scared?
I’ll bet the teddy bear naming was just an excuse. So, who is trying to steal this woman’s property, or intimidate the parents, or force concessions from the school principal?
This kind of thing is never really about religion ,
You may be right, but I think it may be both.
Religion do sometimes mean intimidation.
December 1st, 2007 at 8:32 am
But the Sufis we see on TV, would see an Arab being killed and expelled by an Israeli and would “see no evil, hear no evil, say no evil” and then they would speak about love between Israelis and Muslims as if no Muslim blood is being shed daily bu Israelis.
just as Sunni Islam has been mediajacked been extremists, Sufi Islam has been mediajacked by opportunists.
December 1st, 2007 at 4:49 pm
“Religion do sometimes mean intimidation.”
Usually, not sometimes. What is the myth of Hell in Christianity but a threat? And Islam has copied this myth.
December 1st, 2007 at 10:21 pm
It’s absolut obvious - imho - that the Sudanese government takes hostages as they all do, when they get troubles. Remember US-Embassy in Iran? Shelter Now Helpers in Afghanistan? Human Shields in Iraq? Now the Brits have a muslim Lord in Sudan for inofficial negotiations. And they will hear, that Darfur is an internal matter of Sudan. That’s politics over there. Perhaps the Brits should show that the SAS is still able to get this teacher out there without any political concessions.
December 1st, 2007 at 10:55 pm
Pretty sad that offending “the Prophet” is more serious than the rape, murder and slaughter of hundreds of thousands of non-Arab Sudanese.
December 2nd, 2007 at 12:23 am
Will sudan ever make it to the 12th century.
i changed all my wifes teddy bears names to
muhammad, muhammad 1, muhammad 2,
my stuffed dog name is I AM A NUT JOB after the iranian short shit.
and the stuffed fish is now named Arafish
December 2nd, 2007 at 12:50 am
I am a devout new ager. To me, it is a really safe belief system. Children love teddy bears. Their naming the class teddy bear Muhammad was because they love their Prophet Muhammad. That is a positive not a negative. So why are the Sudanese so insecure in their beliefs. To me that is what their negative response is really all about–their own insecurities in their belief system. If they were secure in their belief system, nothing anyone said or did would bother them.
December 2nd, 2007 at 1:17 am
http://www.flickr.com/photos/97632393@N00/2075694581/
you can’t make this stuff up
December 2nd, 2007 at 2:45 am
I SOOO want a Mohammad bear with (what do you call those) head coverings, and the knife. He so cute. But what is that spring thing by his left ear?
Anyway the auction was canceled. Probably EBAY or the charity thought about being blown up for a teddy bear and screamed NOOOOOO! A victory for Muslims everywhere.
Ironically, Aisha was the last Muslim allowed to play with dolls. But she was married to Mohammad at the time.
December 2nd, 2007 at 2:50 am
By the way, since no one mentioned it, the auction wasn’t really for the teddy bear who, according to the original text was “likely to remain in custody” but to donate to a charity:
Any proceeds to Prisoners Abroad http://www.prisonersabroad.org.uk
…
If you bid you are simply making a donation to the above charity which will be sent straight to them with Ebay final fee and Paypal charges deducted. Bear likely to remain in custody.
December 2nd, 2007 at 2:53 am
well, we gave them the right to make all that… great sudanesse.
December 2nd, 2007 at 3:44 am
This incident has little to do with teddy bears or Mohammed and everything to do with throwing up a smokescreen to help Sudan continue to resist UN and Western efforts to halt the rape, slaughter and ethnic cleansing in Darfur.
Now, Jean-Marie Guehenno, the United Nations peacekeeping chief, has said that the obstacles raised by Sudan are putting in doubt the planned deployment of a peacekeeping force for Darfur.
Is the UN any use whatsoever?
(more at blogolob)
December 2nd, 2007 at 4:21 am
Also, can anyone think of any reason for the toy grasshopper in the foreground of the picture?
December 2nd, 2007 at 5:20 am
Western women in Sudan? How retarded is that?
December 2nd, 2007 at 7:25 am
[...] wrote an interesting post today on Comment on The inevtiable conclusion to Teddy Mo part 2 by perryHere’s a quick [...]
December 2nd, 2007 at 8:35 am
My ancient Egyptian history may be off, but, aren’t these savages the descendents of the Nubians that presently claim to have built the pyramids?
December 2nd, 2007 at 10:49 am
20. Steve M.:
“Is the UN any use whatsoever?”
No. Never have been, never will be. The worlds biggest dictatorship has veto rights, for crying out loud! My suggestion: Pack up the UN and start up the UD (United Democracies) with only passive seats for non-democratic governments.
22. perry:
“Western women in Sudan? How retarded is that?”
Very. Expats should take this as a hint and get the hell out of dodgy areas immideately.
December 2nd, 2007 at 11:23 am
“Is the UN any use whatsoever?”
No. Never have been, never will be. The worlds biggest dictatorship has veto rights, for crying out loud! My suggestion: Pack up the UN and start up the UD (United Democracies) with only passive seats for non-democratic governments.
Yes, setting up a UD could be a good idea, if they could decide who was and who wasn’t democratic.
Why should the non-democratic governments have a seat, even passive? Let the bastards stand.
December 2nd, 2007 at 1:51 pm
THE LATEST IDEA OF THE UN IS TO TRY AND STOP US GETTING HANGED FOR SAYING AND DOING POLITICALLY AND SOCIALLY INCORRECT THINGS IN THE WRONG COUNTRIES.
BUT IT IS ALSO HELPING CERTAIN COUNTRIES TO STOP HANGING SO AS TO GET LOWER CUSTOMS TARRIFS INTO THE EUROPEAN UNION.AS IN PYRAMIDS ETC.
HOW DO GAY JEWISH TEDDYBEAR HOLDERS WHO HAVE NOT GIVEN THEIR BEARS RELIGIOUSLY CORRECT NAMES FEEL OVER THERE IN IRAN ?
BE CAREFUL ! : THEY’VE JUST GOT TILL THE 19/20 DEC UN VOTE TO HANG US.
SUPERMAXES ARE A LONG TIME NOT TO SEE DAYLIGHT AND OTHER HUMAN BEINGS.
CAN JUST SEE THE HANGMEN HOLDING THE BLACK HOOD ITCHING TO GET IT ON IN TIME UP THERE IN HAIKSTEP.
PROBABLY WITH THE FULL BLESSING OF MY NEIGHBOURS…….
December 2nd, 2007 at 1:52 pm
THE LATEST IDEA OF THE UN IS TO TRY AND STOP US GETTING HANGED FOR SAYING AND DOING POLITICALLY AND SOCIALLY INCORRECT THINGS IN THE WRONG COUNTRIES.
BUT IT IS ALSO HELPING CERTAIN COUNTRIES TO STOP HANGING SO AS TO GET LOWER CUSTOMS TARRIFS INTO THE EUROPEAN UNION.AS IN PYRAMIDS ETC.
HOW DO GAY JEWISH TEDDYBEAR HOLDERS WHO HAVE NOT GIVEN THEIR BEARS RELIGIOUSLY CORRECT NAMES FEEL OVER THERE IN IRAN ?
BE CAREFUL ! : THEY’VE JUST GOT TILL THE 19/20 DEC UN VOTE TO HANG US.
SUPERMAXES ARE A LONG TIME NOT TO SEE DAYLIGHT AND OTHER HUMAN BEINGS.
CAN JUST SEE THE HANGMEN HOLDING THE BLACK HOOD ITCHING TO GET IT ON IN TIME UP THERE IN HAIKSTEP.
PROBABLY WITH THE FULL BLESSING OF MY NEIGHBOURS…….
December 2nd, 2007 at 8:00 pm
Islam brings ridicule upon itself with idiocy like this.
BHG
December 2nd, 2007 at 11:29 pm
But ithe whole Sudan Teddy Bear thing is generating a whole NEW line of products!
http://www.thenoseonyourface.com/2007/11/29/sudanese-reaction-to-mohammed-teddy-bear-reveals-ignorance-about-the-power-of-the-mohammed-brand/
December 3rd, 2007 at 1:33 am
That is funny, I am going to check it out on ebay right now (laughing). But seriously, what a sick thing to get mad at her for.AW’s Blog, click here
December 3rd, 2007 at 3:47 am
It is no doubt we should drop League of Nations number 2 but we do not need UD or anything else either. Let’s keep it as natural process. States unite and grow apart depending on their best interests. It have always been like that. Why ruin good thing.
December 3rd, 2007 at 4:35 am
Thanks for speaking out about the Teddy Bear incident. Do you ever hear from Leilouta and will she ever go back to blogging? I discovered your blog through her, and I miss reading about her thoughts and adventures.
December 3rd, 2007 at 10:39 am
32. leo:
It’s good to have a forum in which to debate; else some countries would have trouble getting heard and others would be dificult to ‘get a hold of’…
Incidentally, they should announce Jerusalem as the new capital city of the UD with no connection to any specific country or religion - that way one of the biggest problems in the Israel/Palestine conflict would be solved and both parties could save face.
December 3rd, 2007 at 10:27 pm
i renamed all my wife’s teddies except for the ones that came from victories secret, I mean if renamed those it would sort of kill the mood
hunny put on your black lace muhammad and come to bed. that would kill all the desire.
December 4th, 2007 at 3:45 am
Pat Condell weighs in:
http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=119389495&blogID=334386631
December 4th, 2007 at 9:42 am
I think it sucks that she got a pardon. One white person gets in trouble and they get a presidential pardon. There are millions of people being killed in Darfur and no one gives a toss. The woman went to Sudan willingly and she contravened that country’s laws. She should have completed her 15 day sentence- every country has its own laws and they should be respected however retarded you may think they are. I got a 100 pound fine for leaving my car parked for 2 mins longer than i should have, which i wouldn’t have got back home. That is very retarded and if i don’t pay i have to go to court- how harsh is that. So can i go and make a fuss and say boo hooo i don’t like the law, i want a pardon and i want it now. Pathetic.
December 4th, 2007 at 12:13 pm
[...] Original post by Enrika [...]
December 4th, 2007 at 1:38 pm
Anna @ 37,
Are you sure there is law in Sudan forbidding naming teddy bear a Mohummed?
Oh, and it is not her fault you got lousy parking ticket.
This women did not screw up your day, you did.
December 4th, 2007 at 1:54 pm
leo, what are you going on about? Go back and read what i wrote.
It is an offence to insult Islam and that was an deemed an insult, therefore she contravened the law. Everyone else has to abide by laws they don’t agree with. I too UNKNOWINGLY broke the law but was informed sternly that IGNORANCE WAS NOT AN EXCUSE and will not be receiving a pardon. Rules should apply to everyone, no?
December 4th, 2007 at 2:41 pm
I dunno what should be new about it. Wasnt there a swedish music group called ALLA? Oh, wait, that was ABBA. But my cat and even my Hangbellypig is named Mohammed, because this is the Name, they received from the ultimate God, Allah II - Directors cut.
December 4th, 2007 at 2:41 pm
“It is an offence to insult Islam and that was an deemed an insult”
Can you clearly define what is and is not insulting to Islam?
Is there law in Sudan, which describes forbidden actions to be construed as insults? Or is there free interpretation by anyone depending on mood or political situation? Looks like it all in the eyes of the beholder.
December 4th, 2007 at 4:17 pm
Love It!!
SK
December 4th, 2007 at 4:34 pm
How the Sudanese wish to interpret and enforce their laws is their business and they shouldn’t be pressurised by bullies.
December 4th, 2007 at 5:16 pm
AnnA Said: How the Sudanese wish to interpret and enforce their laws is their business and they shouldn’t be pressurised by bullies.
–kind of like how Nazi Germany wished to enforce their laws on the Jews in the 1930’s huh?
December 4th, 2007 at 6:21 pm
“Wasnt there a swedish music group called ALLA? ”
Alla is actually a very popular Russian name. There are zillion of Allas in Russia, have been for years; none of them Muslim.
I am surprised nobody took offense in this practice. Wonder what would happen if one of Russian Allas went to Sudan. This one will pass, though.
http://www.behindthename.com/name/alla
December 4th, 2007 at 6:33 pm
Anna, Ms. Gibbons was not pardoned because she is ‘white’. She was pardoned because she’s a citizen of a country that was pissed off by the event, and Sudan doesn’t have too many friends in the West as it is (it’s the genocidal image, doesn’t buy too many friends).
Darfurians aren’t citizens of a foreign country that has to look after its citizens abroad, but rather the citizens of the very country that is making sure that they won’t get any equality any time soon, other than the equality of the grave.
As for laws regarding insulting Islam - the kids named the teddy. Their parents did not complain. Ask Sudanese just how unlikely such an event is to be viewed as an insult by most Sudanese, who already had their share of theocracy and aren’t that keen on going back to the days of fanatical madness. Ms. Gibbons was arrested and tried months after the event itself took place, an event which didn’t seem to bother the authorities there too much until very recently.
You know what? I smell a rat. Someone decided that focus should shift to an infidel, and this was done. Laws, or even the views of Sudan’s own Muslims’ views regarding what would be deemed acceptable or insulting, were never part of the equation. But had they been…
Had they been, I would have never taken an idiotic moral relativist stance. Hell, the original sentence was meant to be several months, and some people were even calling for death by firing squad! I wonder, Anna, had Sudan still been Turabi’s theocratic regime, and had Ms. Gibbons’ chosen punishment been death, would you still be talking about how each country has its own laws and how we musn’t ‘bully’ the legal process? Think about that.
December 4th, 2007 at 6:33 pm
Allochka, I think you are safe. You are not teddy bear
December 4th, 2007 at 6:37 pm
Roman Kalik @ 47,
Do you think Anna does not know that all?
She just wants to prove that 2 + 2 4
December 4th, 2007 at 6:39 pm
2 + 2 <> 4
Damn html
December 4th, 2007 at 7:10 pm
Roman
“Ms. Gibbons was not pardoned because she is ‘white”
There are cases in Saudi like this all the time but Saudi is a big boy and noone likes upsetting them. Guess you didn’t hear of the Egyptian who was executed in Saudi for leaving a koran in the washrooms at a mosque. This is all about political muscle. As for the sudanese public, does it matter what they say? At the end of the day, the rule of law is what matters and if the Sudanese people want to change it then they haven’t shown any initiative yet.
I am glad for the lady and my argument is about Britain throwing its weight around and getting a presidential pardon, despite the fact that she only had 5 days left. The UK gets peeved when the US throws its weight around but it doesnt hesitate to do the same. Every country has its own laws and customs and it’s disrespectful to come into someone’s house and start rearranging the furniture how you like it.
December 4th, 2007 at 7:43 pm
I’m sorry to barge in guys, but you’re missing the whole point.
The point is about mutual respect & honesty. Let me explain:
The English teacher worked at an English school for little boys and girls. How would you feel if you were a Christian and you found out that the very teacher you entrusted your children with actually told your children at a very young age that it was Ok to refer to the cross as the “plus sign”?. Well it’s dumb, I know. But trust me; for any concerned religious parent, this would be a biggy!!. And how would you feel if you were a Jew and some teacher told your young children that the Star of David can be called “the Moses Ninja star”? Would you be Ok with that?
Any teacher is entrusted with the children they teach and any decent teacher should ask for and respect the preferences of the parents before they do any experiments.
December 4th, 2007 at 7:59 pm
Thrash @ 52,
Your point is valid and of cause there would be people who would not like it very much. However, the most you’d be in danger of is loosing your position as the teacher at that particular place.
December 4th, 2007 at 8:50 pm
I’m sorry, I know this is OT, but can anyone explain to me the deal with comment #38?
December 4th, 2007 at 9:14 pm
More about Sabaya
First here is the actual ad of the controversial beauty salon and cafe “I borrowed from Sand monkey “
December 4th, 2007 at 9:56 pm
“I’m sorry, I know this is OT, but can anyone explain to me the deal with comment #38?”
Sorry, I have no idea who does it and why.
Our host might shed some light.
December 4th, 2007 at 10:16 pm
Enrika and leo, it’s like a pingback thing, i think, where someone has linked an article to their own blog ie it’s not actually a comment.
no.52, thrash, i think she assumed that because people are called Muhammad, it was therefore ok to call an object that too. The thing is british law doesn’t usually make excuses for ignorance so it’s a unfair to plead that for her, when she’s under another country’s law system.
December 4th, 2007 at 10:17 pm
@Anna, No. 51: I would be more concerned by the fact that the Egyptian government couldn’t care less about how its citizens are being executed abroad. It’s not just the rule of law that matters, it’s the duties that a government has to its country and citizens.
@Thrash, No. 52:
Very nice, except that the neither the children nor the parents were bothered, and nor was the vast majority of the staff. From talking to Sudanese, neither do most Sudanese Muslims view this as anything short of idiocy. Supposedly a co-worker filed a complaint to the Ministry of Education (rather than going to the school management), and after the complaint wasn’t even looked at for a very long time, it was suddently dug up to start a riot.
Incidentally, a teacher in a Christian school not telling kids that it’s wrong to call the cross a plus sign would at most be admonished by school management, told how she should behave and educate, and fired should her behavior persist. A teacher at a Jewish school calling the Star of David a throwing star would just be laughed at - the Star of David being the crest of the royal house of David rather than a religious symbol anyway, and then getting an explanation on the matter. Nowhere is prison implied. Or violent death. At most we’re talking about losing your job. See the difference yet?
December 4th, 2007 at 10:39 pm
Roman,
yes, you are right there. The british care very much for their people and because of that i have the utmost respect for them. I don’t believe the Egyptian government did as much as the british to help him. Perhaps because they viewed what he did as being serious too and so did not want to appear to take it lightly. In any case, the Egyptian government don’t care about their citizens and i think they take the view that one less person will make their job that little bit easier.
December 4th, 2007 at 10:44 pm
Thank you for the clarification, Anna.
December 5th, 2007 at 1:11 am
Anna,
Thank you for the info
December 5th, 2007 at 4:29 am
The riots in Khartoum were about a perceived insult that Theodore Rooseveldt’s hallowed name was userped by the prophet Mohammad. A little known fact that Teddy has a huge Sudanese following. Crowds were heard chanting into the night “Teddy Yes, Mo No” & “No Mo’ Mo” outside the courthouse where Gillian Gibbons was tried and sentenced. Much of this story was lost in translation.
N
December 5th, 2007 at 6:08 am
“Guess you didn’t hear of the Egyptian who was executed in Saudi for leaving a koran in the washrooms at a mosque.”
If I understand correctly Mohammed was illiterate. This means Koran was written by his followers and not by himself. I also heard that there were multiple versions of Koran up until few centuries ago.
Granted, process of selecting one version out of many and destruction of the rest was very long and very careful and was performed with assistance of great many learned Muslim scholars but still does it exclude error completely? So much so that man has to die for forgetting Koran in the washroom?
Is Muslim god so unforgiving that its followers have to be so strict (mildly put)?
December 5th, 2007 at 2:04 pm
Anna, ever consider going to the neighborhood tavern and having a few with the locals?
December 5th, 2007 at 2:53 pm
Anna
There are millions of people being killed in Darfur and no one gives a toss.
That’s utter nonsense. The West and other countries have been protesting against the genocide for about 4 years now. There have been numerous public demonstrations in the US over it, demanding that the UN do something.
December 5th, 2007 at 2:58 pm
leo @ 53
Well I could only say that I totally agree with you that it should be the schools business (and the schools alone) to take care of any misconduct of any teacher. I’m with you on that one.
Roman Kalik @ 58
I do know that many parents were upset. And no one mentioned a death sentence, the worst thing talked about was wiping. (Not that I agree with the latter).
But I have to say that there are similar ‘stupid’ things in the ‘free world’, and no body seems to mind.
Well for instance did you know that according to the federal law in the US: burning the US flag or hanging it upside down is a crime punishable by prison?
And that’s just a piece of fabric, Not the symbol of all what you think is decent.
Did you know that as a scholar you can file a thesis that proves or disproves the existence of a God in most US and European universities in many departments, but if you file for
A Thesis discussing the holocaust (even if it was a real objective historical analysis) you will be automatically rejected and you will be notified that you may not peruse any more education or degrees at that school?
Did you know that in France only nuns can wear a head cover when present inside any educational institution? But muslim girls & non-nun women don’t have that privilege, and any female student (or staff) insisting on wearing a head dress will be picked up by the schools security and thrown out of that school or university?
And speaking of France; Did you know that there are well documented archived evidence that proves that what France did in Algeria and Indochina (current day Vietnam) totally outweighs anything the German warmacht did in Europe in WWII? But if someone tries to suggest that France should just apologies for slaughtering all those people, that poor bastard would be dubbed and idiot and a terrorist savage barbarian.
I have tons of other infinitely stupid things but I don’t wish to take half the blogs space.
December 5th, 2007 at 3:55 pm
“…but if you file for a Thesis discussing the holocaust (even if it was a real objective historical analysis) you will be automatically rejected and you will be notified that you may not peruse any more education or degrees at that school ?”
Coming from one of the country with the strictest laws regarding Holocaust denial (Austria - because they had a share in causing it), I strongly suggest you back up that claim with sources. From what I know, you can get into problems for outright DENYING THAT HOLOCAUST EVER HAPPEND (or only happend on a very small scale). That’s a restriction of several freedoms, and there’s a lively debate going on right here if it should be kept (I am for keeping it). But I really disbelieve that writing an objective analysis about the Holocaust will get you into troubles - I mean, there already ARE tons of the stuff, and they are published very openly…
December 5th, 2007 at 4:08 pm
Well for instance did you know that according to the federal law in the US: burning the US flag or hanging it upside down is a crime punishable by prison
As far as I know, the Supreme Court has tossed out all cases related to persecution of desecrators, citing that desecration is a form of free speech which must be protected.
December 6th, 2007 at 12:29 am
Toady,
you live in a lovely world that i wish existed in real life.
Don’t the americans justify the iraq war on the basis that they brought ‘democracy’ and ‘freedom’ to Iraq. America only acts when it’s in its own favour, why not help the darfurians by bringing democracy and freedom to Sudan? Oh i forgot, Sudan has no massive oil reserves or any important political position in the middle east, leave them to kill each other.
December 6th, 2007 at 5:00 am
Anna, can’t do everything for everybody all of the time. Africa’s been around for about 5000 years. You’d think all those old “civilizations” would be more than willing to help their neighbors. Still can’t even feed themselves, but, no doubt you’ll find someway to blame the US. Yea, we’re legally paying for the oil we’re buying. No law against that. In the Middle East and we’re trying to keep a lid on the eternal never ending Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson shake-down. Silly twit.
December 6th, 2007 at 5:24 am
Anna, Sudan has large oil reserves. In fact, most of them are in the Darfur region, and China has been buying this oil like crazy. There are also other important resources (like Uranium) in the country.
And in fact, the Bush administration has been heavily involved in Sudan (though not militarily). The US put heavy pressure on Sudan to end the North-South war, and didn’t give the country the promised diplomatic goodies when Darfur started happening. So far, the United States has been one of the few countries of the world to officially call what’s happening there a genocide (the UN Human Rights Council is too busy with Israel). But the US military can’t be everywhere, the post-Iraq unpopularity of US military actions doesn’t allow the US to even send troops there as part of a US peacekeeping force, and any sending of such US troops would make the country a magnet for “Liberating” Islamists, much in the same way Iraq turned out to be.
December 6th, 2007 at 5:31 am
Anna,
What is wrong with oil? I need it badly and if freedom and democracy are by-products of my struggle well then, what can I do.
BTW, I do not believe democracy can be forced upon. However, it does not mean one should not try to create favorable conditions and hope for the best.
December 6th, 2007 at 12:21 pm
leo,
“What is wrong with oil? I need it badly and if freedom and democracy are by-products of my struggle well then, what can I do.”
i need oil, and if i need it badly i will go and kill people to get it. You see, it’s that sort of attitude that got you 9/11. Carry on with your gung-ho, we own the world deal and you might get another bunch of bedouins knocking over a few more towers. you bought a lot of things to Iraq, like death, destruction, triggered a civil war, created refugees of million iraqis.
At least, you have the decency to admit that you pillaged a country for its oil.
December 6th, 2007 at 1:18 pm
Anna,
“You see, it’s that sort of attitude that got you 9/11″
If not for Bali-likes I would’ve considered this.
I think, you are putting carriage before horse unless you are implying that Saddam’s rule is preferred by jihadis over that of House of Saud. If so, then I am lost completely. Still, what is wrong with oil? Did you learn how to survive without it? Show me how then.
“At least, you have the decency to admit that you pillaged a country for its oil.”
If I need oil why would I want to pillage country, which produces it? To get less and less of it? Do I steal oil or do I buy oil? Who do you think Iraqis are chasing away all over their country? Isn’t your blame misplaced?
December 6th, 2007 at 2:20 pm
Anna;
Oh i forgot, Sudan has no massive oil reserves or any important political position in the middle east, leave them to kill each other.
Sudan does have oil, as people have already pointed out. America isn’t the global policeman. There are some 20 conflicts going on in the world right now where people are killing each other. The US isn’t going to get involved in every one of them – sorry. People do need to sort out their own shit. Additionally, the rest of the middle-east would consider America’s involvement in Sudan as ‘interference’ in their affairs.
You might also ask yourself, that given 197 other countries in the world, when are they going to take some initiative and do something about the world’s problems instead of expecting America to do it all?
you bought a lot of things to Iraq, like death, destruction, triggered a civil war, created refugees of million iraqis.
So Iraqis had NO OTHER CHOICE but to go after each other with bombs and electric drills because a foreign power toppled their government?
At least, you have the decency to admit that you pillaged a country for its oil.
Anna, you’re spouting off here with no reference to empirical reality. Did America actually take Iraq’s oil? Did America get any special deals on oil from Iraq? Did the price of oil go up or down? Does America pay for the oil it gets from Iraq? Did America take any oil in 1991 when it would have been easy? Etc .. etc ..
Considering the price of oil was just at $100 USD a barrel, who exactly is being pillaged here?
December 6th, 2007 at 2:25 pm
To
Georg @ 67
First of all, as a scholar, it is well known that if you would like to prove something you must start with a clean slate that doesn’t have any biased information. Which means that you have to start with an assumption that (event A for instance) may or may not have happened, and (event A) may have been as big or may have not been as big as it is arbitrarily believed.
So I can’t understand how you can make that assumption while it is initially a crime to even doubt the certainty of (event A) and it is legally not allowed to question the undisputable dogma regarding the scale and massiveness of the event ?
Let alone, that it is one of the most widely used approaches in all disciplines (mathematics initially) that if you would like to prove (theorem A), you may start with an assumptions like (let’s assume that theorem A is false), and by proving the falsy of that assumption you then have proved the validity of (theorem A). I hope I don’t sound too geecky
So I quote:
“From what I know, you can get into problems for outright DENYING THAT HOLOCAUST EVER HAPPEND (or only happend on a very small scale)”
Isn’t that enough backup to my point?
One more thing; There isn’t a single historical issue that didn’t ignite a debate. Can you tell the name of one book or one author or one scholar or a researcher or a professor who actually published a paper discussing the possibility that the Holocaust wasn’t as big as every body thought? Of course I ask for someone who wasn’t crucified after publishing
And if you want names of people who treaded that way, and who weren’t even asked to present their argument to the world, people who were thrown in jail (guantanamo style) without even giving them a chance to explain. I can get you quite a hefty list.
And for Xylo @ 68
“As far as I know, the Supreme Court has tossed out all cases related to persecution of desecrators, citing that desecration is a form of free speech which must be protected”
I stand corrected, you’re right and I found out that I was wrong about that one.
Thanks for the correction.
December 6th, 2007 at 3:00 pm
Toady,
please learn the art of sarcasm and then reread my comment in light of it. The operative word in my comment was “massive” oil reserves. I believe before the US led invasion, oil was cheaper than water in Iraq. So yeah iraq was a little gold nugget. Interesting how the US and the UK have a monopoly on all the building contracts, which i am sure will be a good boost for the respective economies. You said it yourself, you dont go in and fix people’s problems on demand. I don’t know what your country is doing with the oil toady, all i know is your SUVs don’t run on air and the US is so desperately oil dependent.
Leo,
the death rate in Iraq until recently was approx 3000 month. Facts are the death rate under the US occupation is way higher than they were under Saddam. It is a fact of life that the US invasion triggered a civil war. With power comes responsibility is the cliche, is it not.
Roman
if the price of oil was cheaper than the price of water in Sudan, then there would have been no problem in “liberating them”.
December 6th, 2007 at 3:16 pm
RE KILLING LOADS OF PEOPLE AS BY THE FRENCH,GERMANS ETC.,PLEASE BE SO KIND AS TO WORK OUT THE PRESENT AGES OF THOSE RESPONSIBLE.PLEASE LEAVE THE PRESENT PEOPLE IN THOSE COUNTRIES LIKE ME OUT OF THIS.MOST OF US ARE FAR YOUNGER.I EVEN LIVE IN AN ARAB MAJORITY SUBURB OF PARIS.
PLEASE ALSO NOTE THAT THE UNITED NATIONS IS TRYING TO STOP THE DEATH PENALTY EVERYWHERE AFTER 20 DECEMBER 2007.
SO INSTEAD OF GETTING HANGED FRIEND CHEMICAL ALI WILL JUST GET A MEDAL IN A LONGTERM INSTITUTION ? HOW DO PEOPLE IN HALABJA (THOSE STILL LEFT) FEEL ABOUT THAT ?
AS WE SAY IN FRANCE RE CRITICISMS ”SWEEP IN FRONT OF YOUR OWN DOOR FIRST”.
FOR THE REST SEE #27.
PS I HAVE A TEDDY BEAR.HE IS OVER 50 AND HASN’T GOT A NAME.IT’LL STOP MORE WARS LIKE THAT !
December 6th, 2007 at 4:33 pm
“the death rate in Iraq until recently was approx 3000 month. … With power comes responsibility is the cliche, is it not.”
‘until recently’ actually comforts me very much because as you correctly said with power comes responsibility (cliche or not, when you are right, you are right).
But you a still missing the point. US did not cause all this death. Immense love of average Iraqi for his fellow man on top of jihadi propaganda and direct jihadi action caused that. Good thing it is dying down. We are not of the woods yet, though.
December 6th, 2007 at 4:38 pm
Anna;
All large developed countries are oil dependent. The US gets 60% of its oil from foreign sources, the rest comes from domestic sources. Actually the US is less dependent on foreign oil than the mid-east oil states are dependent on dollars. If we developed alternative energy sources (and we will), where would your leaders get the dollars to buy technology, medicine, and everything else the West produces but their economies do not? Not to mention the gold they use to plate their toilets?
the death rate under the US occupation is way higher than they were under Saddam..
The US made mistakes in Iraq but it isn’t forcing Iraqis to slaughter each other. Unless you believe that Iraqis are dumb sheep with no free will of their own, you should consider that Iraq’s problems are rooted in a primeval culture that sees tribal vendettas, clan feuding, religious xenophobia, and honor killings as acceptable codes of conduct. It’s a highly dysfunctional country with highly dysfunctional people.
December 6th, 2007 at 5:24 pm
leo,
everyone in the ME knew that Saddam was keeping the Shia’s in check. We knew that getting rid of him would be a disaster but no one listened. Yes lots of deaths are due to civil war, but that was because power was used without any forsight or regard for the cultural hotbed that is Iraq. I agree, it’s a good cliche.
toady
“If we developed alternative energy sources (and we will), where would YOUR leaders get the dollars to buy technology, medicine, and everything else the West produces but their economies do not? Not to mention the gold they use to plate their toilets? ”
You seem to be struggling with basic geography toady. Egypt is not part of the gulf and we are certainly not part of OPEC. We don’t do gold taps either- that’s Saudi- get it right. And for the record, just as not everyone who is white is french, neither is everyone who is middle eastern from an OPEC. We produce our own world class medics, thankyou very much, a lot of them are currently propping up your health service coz yanks are too busy getting obese and claiming state benefits to actually do any work.
Acceptable codes of conduct, ehy? I believe your glorious history shows you forcing black people to defeacate in each others’ mouths. Americans talking about dysfunctionalism- that’s rich, i thought that was your speciality.
December 6th, 2007 at 5:45 pm
“I believe your glorious history shows you forcing black people to defeacate in each others’ mouths”
Like so much middle-eastern common beliefs, it’s wrong. Never get information about American history from anyone who’s drooled saliva on their El Che T-shirt.
“e produce our own world class medics, thankyou very much, a lot of them are currently propping up your health service. Americans talking about dysfunctionalism- that’s rich, i thought that was your speciality”
Why would so many world class medics want to go to such a dysfunctional country as America?
December 6th, 2007 at 6:12 pm
“everyone in the ME knew that Saddam was keeping the Shia’s in check.”
By what means?
“We knew that getting rid of him would be a disaster but no one listened.”
I think it was probably the biggest mistake on US part to discount this possibility. We are definitely smarter today than four years ago. Although, I doubt it would’ve stopped anything. Saddam’s goose was cooked by then. May be we would’ve been prepared better and could’ve prevented more death but I am speculating here.
“Yes lots of deaths are due to civil war, but that was because power was used without any forsight or regard for the cultural hotbed that is Iraq.”
Again, I agree. But look on the bright side. After all mayhem that Iraqis self inflicted they are too smarter today and neither Shias not Sunnis nor Kurds are needed to be kept in check as you say. It looks like today they beginning to like peace more and more. No Saddams are necessary.
BTW, Saddam had 20+ years to make Iraq beautiful. Give us this much and then we will compare the results.
December 6th, 2007 at 7:16 pm
Anna, you are using loaded arguments. Building contracts are *nothing* compared to war expenses, and what’s the point of invading a country that has really big local oil subsidies? Out of spite?
Sudan has large oil reserves, it simply doesn’t pretend to give a hoot about its populace, and prefers to sell as much of the oil as possible to China. Neither the US nor any other Coalition member profited from the war - between the huge war expenses and the damage (yes, damage!) to the international oil market, the Iraq war has no financial bright spot whatsoever.
Want to know who profited? Oil-based econmies. Saudi, Iran, Venezuela, Russia, all got a huge unexpected bonus and now have an interest in stoking the flames to keep the oil price in the red. They had a clean profit - no risk, no huge expenses, just an amazing profit margin.
December 6th, 2007 at 8:52 pm
xylo, lol@ middle eastern common beliefs, i learnt that from a text book written by a british historian. Please try learning your own history. People emigrate to the states because of greater earning potential and cheap cost of living, nice weather and coz you’re a relatively likeable bunch.
leo, im not clued up about iraqi politics and history but everyone in the ME knew that Saddam was holding his people back from hacking each other to bits. I have no loyalty whatsoever to Iraq, i was just giving some raw facts that there were less people being killed under the dictatorship than under the new democracy.
Roman, your sarcasm is duely noted but the buidling contracts are in addition to the revenue from oil fields. I am not an economist but i think rebuilding an entire country is quite good boost. Roman, the fact that the allied forces messed up the Iraq war is immaterial. I am sure at the time, when they produced the fabricated dossier to invade IRaq, they thought it was going to be very lucrative indeed. You don’t go into war to knowingly damage your country’s economy and deplete your armed forces unnecessarily, or do you?
I think it’s time for a new post!
December 6th, 2007 at 9:27 pm
“I think it’s time for a new post!”
Ditto! I miss my Sandmonkey! Post, damn you, post!
(((((Sandmonkey)))))
December 6th, 2007 at 9:42 pm
It is indeed time for a new post.
Also, Anna, in case you forgot the old pre-war news… Everyone thought Saddam still had WoMD’s, be it the European countries that didn’t participate in the attack, or Iran. Keeping that illusion further by playing hide-and-seek with the UN inspectors furthered that hidden threat of his: aimed mainly at keeping Iran at bay. Also, you greatly oversimplify reasons for war into simple economics - a common practice that ignores nearly all the human complexities involved in such affairs.
The war costs - as well as the damage to the oil market - were factors so predictable and simple (much simpler than the ethno-religio-political reality within Iraq, for example) that it would have been impossible to ignore. There is also no profit in reconstruction - the US invested a lot of money into that, rather than serving as some kind of wrecker/rebuilder mobster. There is simply no monetary gain in this war - never was, and never will be. Oil is not stealable, as it is sold into an international market, and bought from that market. The US is a net oil importer, which means that any fluctuations up in the oil market can cause major damage to the economy. The only countries to profit are net oil *exporters*.
No, this wasn’t a war based on economy, it was a war based on changing the political reality in an unstable and increasingly hostile region, with Saddam simply being viewed as the single most dangerous ruler in the region. Read up about Vietnam when you get the chance, especially the feared Domino Effect. One of the main factors in this war was trying to start such an effect, though there were many other considerations.
December 6th, 2007 at 10:26 pm
So, in closing, we’ve been convinced that anna is a psycho. Still not too late to stop in that bar and have a few with the people. It would be better than your mother’s basement constantly adjusting the eye slit on your berka.
December 6th, 2007 at 10:45 pm
lol, Roman, Saddam was a threat? lolol, do you know Saddam’s reign was mostly secular? Do you know that he allowed alcohol distilleries to operate (big deal in the ME)? do you know that other faiths lived in peace while he was in power? the guy never supported islamic terrorism. I can’t see how this brought any stability to the region, but please do enlighten me. IF anything it has served as fuel for the fire of terrorism.