The View from Gaza

15 yr old Pal boy climbed communication tower in sheikh zowaid &
hanged Palestinian flag. Boy now detained at police station surrounded
by riot police.


Egyptian Riot Control soldiers hiding behind their shields as rock are getting thrown at them and Hamas gunmen shoot bullets in the air using machine guns. 

 

 The Egyptian soldiers getting rocks thrown at them by the palestinians in Rafah.

 The Egyptian soldiers starting to throw some rocks back in self-defense.


Overnight Saturday, Egyptian security forces caught
20 Palestinians in Sinai in possession of explosives and electronic
devices which would have enabled them to listen in to the Egyptian
forces' communications networks.


Unarmed Egyptian soldiers trying to seal the borders stopped by Hamas Gunmen with Machine Guns. 

The Caption for this picture reads:

A Palestinian Hamas militant, unseen, fires at the direction of
Egyptian police dogs,as Egyptian border guards and riot police officers
try to protect themselves at the border between Egypt and Gaza, in
Rafah, southern Gaza Strip, Friday, Jan. 25, 2008. The gunman killed 3
of the dogs according to witnesses. Hamas-backed militants driving
bulldozers knocked down more Egyptian border fortifications on Friday
in a brazen challenge to Egyptian forces who are trying, with little
success, to gradually reseal the breached border using human chains,
dogs and water cannons. (AP Photo/Hatem Moussa)

Please note the dead dogs, and the injured Egyptian soldiers- who were fired upon by Hamas terrorists (I refuse to call them anything else)- who are being supported by their colleagues in the Left Top corner of the pic. 


At least 36 Egyptian security personnel have been hospitalized,
including some in critical condition, due to incidents with
Palestinians on the breached border with Gaza, Egypt's foreign minister said Saturday.

Ahmed Aboul Gheit told reporters following a meeting with the Egyptian
president and several cabinet ministers that between 10 and 12 riot
police and 26 border guards, including two senior officers, were all in
the hospital.


Yeah….Let's sympathize with Gaza. Support Hamas. Viva Viva Intifidah.. or.. whatever.

Motherfuckers!

Comments

  1. I guess I was wrong about the Egyptian riot force… somehow I had the impression they had the ability to storm into a situation and, not being handicaped by any international laws, high courts of justice or basic humanitaric values, get things under control quickly and effieciently.
    Although now they seem as… sort of pussies?
    I guess their abilities lie in beating up egyptian blogers, rather than actaul border patroling.

  2. Palestinian side: guns, explosives….

    Egyptian side: human chains, dogs and water cannons

    our poor soldiers :( ( Rabena ma3akom

  3. This is really sad, don’t you guys have at least ONE crack army regiment that can take control?

    Terrorism is prevalent in India too and when the paramilitary forces can’t handle it, the big boys move in and make sure the threat is nullified.

    In a democracy, the army is an instrument of the state and not the other way around.

  4. you said it.. motherfuckers!

  5. @Siddharth

    There are treaties that prevent Egypt from deploying army regiments in sinai

  6. @ O

    Thanks, i didn’t know that…

  7. np, The camp david treaties must be reviewed, or else we have no chance of protecting our borders against mass scale invasions like this.

  8. 5. O: And that is just briliant, ’cause hey… Palestinians only honour treaties when it suits their purposes.

    So there you have it – this is pretty much how the west feels when dealing with the arab/muslim world (generally speaking og course). We have (as the egyptians do in this situation) the power to crack down hard on dissidents, but are afraid to use said power for fear of being labelled brutish. The other side has no such qualms, and for some reason they are never chastisized for their actions. Although I feel with the egyptian police force (and their dogs) I feel a slight twinge of gratification that someone else is feeling this injustice for a change! Maybe their reaction will be slightly different the next time…?

  9. How long before the Gazans start firing rockets into Egypt?

    How are these events being reported in the Egyptian media?

  10. @O, treaties can be breached in case of emergency,…

    general rule :P

  11. @Suzanne

    We can only hope that Mubarak gets that through his head

  12. Treaties can be breached at any time, and then become null and void. If Egypt breaches a treaty with Israel, then Israel is no longer bound by the treaty either.

  13. Theres a very prudent saying in Hindi which means ” It’s no use talking to people who only understand the language of violence”.

    How true.

  14. I warned you kiddo. Little Gaza.

  15. Holy shit.
    Thats horrible, poor soldiers, poor dogs.
    However I seriously wonder whether or not you are slightly biased here..
    ” The Egyptian soldiers starting to throw some rocks back in self-defense.”
    Yes well I heard on the BBC of Egyptians doing it first with no Palestinains returning fire.And have any Palestinians been killed?

    Anyway stupid Hamas should stay out if this now, they are just causing trouble. the border has been opened, people have got supplies. They can’t hope to keep it open forever, although I sympathise with ppl who do.

  16. “They can’t hope to keep it open forever, although I sympathise with ppl who do.”

    The aim is to keep it open long enough to get a good number of Hamas fighters out into Sinai, where Israel’s border is relatively unprotected.

    “I heard on the BBC”

    Remember that the BBC is pro-Palestininan.

  17. reine.de.tout says:

    lelly Says:
    January 28th, 2008 at 11:57 am
    Holy shit.
    Thats horrible, poor soldiers, poor dogs.
    However I seriously wonder whether or not you are slightly biased here..
    ” The Egyptian soldiers starting to throw some rocks back in self-defense.”
    Yes well I heard on the BBC of Egyptians doing it first with no Palestinains returning fire.And have any Palestinians been killed?

    LELLY – Let’s say the Egyptians DID throw rocks first – does it occur to you that the Palestinians are invading Egypt and it would be really really OK for Egyptian soldiers to try to protect their homeland? And Palestinian deaths are not going to be reported anywhere unless it can be made to look as if the joooz did it.

  18. The proverbial shoe is now on the other foot.

  19. our beautiful Egypt is going to be ruined by Hamas….I’m getting nightmares about Egypt turning into a Lebanon type scenario, with Hamas and ele5wan turning it into hell on earth.

  20. Roman Kalik says:

    Anna, if Hamas operates in a manner in any way similar to the PLO of old (70s-80s), then they will indeed try to turn Sinai into a base of operations – with or without Egypt’s consent. Both Jordan and Lebanon had to live through that, with disastrous consequences.

    But I think that Hamas are a bit smarter than that. They won’t overextend their influence unless they’re certain that they have allies firmly in control of Sinai (the Muslim Brotherhood). My guess though is that the current scenario will repeat itself with variations – Hamas take down border, mob goes through, mob goes back… and so it will repeat until the current status quo shifts.

  21. Spanish Dancer says:

    The BBC has published doctored photos, wept openly, on the air at the death of Arafat, and admitted that they are biased against both Israel and the U.S. in the name of “saving” the Palestinians. With all due respect to the pain the Palestinians have suffered, I don’t believe a single thing the BBC reports on this issue. They ask Palestinians, who of course say, “the Egyptians threw rocks first!” and that’s the only information they bother getting before going to the press.

  22. Spanish Dancer says:

    P.S., I can’t believe the Palestinians and Hamas are doing this when Egypt so graciously allowed them to enter their country without a fuss. This just goes to show how Hamas operates: give us exactly what we ask for, or we fire on you. It illustrates the complete lack of political and governing skills they possess.

  23. Motherfuckers indeed.

  24. SandMonkey says:

    I’m sad because nobody agrees with me except for Americans and Israelis. I mean, sure, riots usually involve violence (and this riot is a result of Egyptian forces attempting to seal off a border through which hundreds of thousands are attempting to cross). But this is different because Palestinians are evil! Sure, some – ok, everybody but me – would say that when hundreds of thousands of civilians cross a border, it’s a humanitarian crisis, but I call it an invasion. It’s an invasion because Palestinians are evil. Aren’t I smart?

  25. SandMonkey says:

    Me again, I’m just really upset that all the Arabs are rallying in support of the Gazan civilians (80% of them are refugees or descendants of refugees, living in complete siege, in very overcrowded conditions… but seriously, they’re totally well off). Anyway, I’m considering changing the name of this blog. What do you all think of “DirtyArab.org” or “ArabsSuck.org”? Which do you think really appeals to the American right? I want them to know that I’m down with adopting and broadcasting racist terms for Arabs.

  26. To the poser who wrote above me…News flash bro – Egyptians AREN’T Arab, so you’re lame-ass jokes doesn’t work here.

    Egypt needs to close the damn border and get the Palestinians out!!! Period!

    They’re the ones that fucking elected Hamas to run their country…lol…now they’ve got to figure out how to get out of their own mess. And who elects Terrorists to run their country anyways?? Egypt has enough shit to worry about, we don’t need to pick up every single “Arab” cause out there, when in fact, Egyptians are not, never were and never will be “Arab!” Fucking Nasser!!!!

    Besides the brilliant Sandmonkey, why can’t more Egyptians understand this?????

  27. Spanish Dancer says:

    “Anyway, I’m considering changing the name of this blog. What do you all think of “DirtyArab.org” or “ArabsSuck.org”? Which do you think really appeals to the American right? I want them to know that I’m down with adopting and broadcasting racist terms for Arabs.”

    Isn’t this the equivalent of those knee-jerk accusations of anti-Semitism people are always talking about – accusing anyone who doesn’t think Hamas should be shooting at Egyptians as somehow racist against Arabs? How does that make sense? I thought most Egyptians WERE Arabs…?

    I don’t think anyone is saying that Palestinians are living in the lap of luxury, or that they’re not in an untenable situation. I think the debate here is Hamas’s decision to open fire on Egyptian soldiers and dogs, Palestinian civilians’ decision to start throwing rocks at same, and the efficacy of such a strategy when Egypt had allowed them to cross the border for food, fuel, cigarettes, livestock, etc. But maybe that’s too nuanced and threatening a conversation for some…I suppose nastiness, wildly exaggerated accusations, and misplaced sarcasm are much better ways to engage with each other in a crisis.

  28. Spanish Dancer says:

    EgyPeter, oops! I must admit that I also thought many, if not most Egyptians were Arabs. I know many who consider themselves as such, but I shouldn’t have made that assumption either in my rebuttal to the other poster. Anyway, I agree with you that all Arabs need not align themselves with every so-called “Arab” cause (who gets to decide what an “Arab cause” is, anyway?). That would also mean that all Europeans would have one party line, all Americans would have to follow Dubya’s lead (yikes!). Generalized identity politics are always so reductive: as Chris Rock said, “be a human being!”

  29. Spanish Dancer says:

    EgyPeter, oops! I also made the mistake of assuming that most Egyptians were Arab. I know many who consider themselves as such, but I shouldn’t have generalized in my post. Many apologies! And I agree with you that not all Arabs should be pressured to align with the “Arab causes.” Who gets to decide what an “Arab cause” is, anyway? Why should Europeans or Americans align with their country’s “causes” just because they are European or American? As Chris Rock said, “be a human being!”

  30. sandmonkey,

    the notion of arab unity is a sad joke. it never was. they all fucked each other up at every opportunity. the only thing that ever unified them was the hatred of israel (and now the west and US). the sheer fact that only israelis and americans agree with you and care what happens to egypt demonstrates this reality. your government should draw the conclusion and start acting rationally.

    as to the suffering in gaza and about their purchases:

    http://blog.camera.org/archives/2008/01/post_36.html
    http://blog.camera.org/archives/2008/01/fertiliser_to_be_seen_but_not.html

  31. another interesting bit on the “starvation” in gaza and how these lies disseminate:

    http://sandbox.blog-city.com/gaza_buried_in_flour.htm

  32. Oh God

    a7a fuck hamas ,, this Egyptian soldier can be my brother or yours

    so kossom every one said Viva Intefada

    coz there is no intifada there is terror for us to open our borders

  33. somebody in yesterday’s thread said that even the dense Olmert govt will understand that this is an opportunity to disconnect from gaza and responsibility for it. I disagreed, saying that the israeli elite is so incompetent that it won’t.

    Now consider these. Do you detect anything?

    http://article.wn.com/view/2008/01/28/Egyptians_Hamas_rebuilding_Gaza_fence/
    http://article.wn.com/view/2008/01/28/Israel_to_lift_aid_embargo_on_Gaza/

  34. i was wondering how long would it take hamas to figure out — or be convinced by their arab “brothers” that it is much more advantageous for them to be under the Israeli “siege” where they get most of the basic needs and the sympathy of the whole world, than to create difficulties for their arab brothers. after all they have the tunnels thru the egypt border too anyway.

    once they made their point — that the egyptian govt is a pussy and can be stepped over — they are going back to the siege to continue to fool the gullible world.

    and you know what: it’ll work too.

  35. Truthteller says:

    When a problem isn’t handled, it only gets worse. Having a Hamas state wasn’t just going to hurt Israel, it was obviously going to hurt Egypt sooner or later. At some point Egypt will have to get the press out of there, secure the area and crack down or get overrun

    Some in the Israeli government are way too eager to wash their hands of the problem at Egypt’s expense and Gaza has turned into a ticking time bomb, with Al Queda already there. Give it another few years and the place will be hell on earth for every nearby country. It’s already an MB base, just wait till it gets worse

  36. Truthteller says:

    basically it’s human nature to perpetuate a set of behaviors

    the palestinians have learned a specific set of behaviors and there’s no reason for them not to keep using them against egypt too

  37. Melissa in NorCal says:

    I’m a dog lover, so I wouldn’t shed a tear if the killer of these dogs wasn’t executed in a painful method, perhaps sodomized to death by a horse or something along those lines. The Palestinians don’t seem to understand that the world grows weary of their bullshit.

  38. 7’7’7’7’7’7’7’7’7’7’77’7’7’7’7’77777777777tttttffffoooooooooooooooooooo

    KOS OM FALASTINE

    TFOOOOOOOOOOOOO

  39. Heh. Here’s something I did not expect to see.

    http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP182908

  40. @ 42

    And all it took just one measly wall breach in wrong direction.

    Go, Hamas, go!

  41. ANA BAKRAH FALASTINE
    ANA BAKRAH FALASTINE

    ANY PLASTINKIN SHIT PUTS THE GUN TO AN EGYPTIAN SOLDIR SHOULD GET ONE IN HIS ASS HOLE, THIS IS WHAT I UNDERSTAND OF POLITICS, BUT THE EGYPTIAN GOVERNMENT IS BOTH A PIMP AND WHORE FOR SENDING UNARMED SOLDIERS TO BATTEL THOES PALASTINKIN TERRORISTS

    7′TFOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 3ALA 7EKOOMA EL 7′AYNA
    7′TFOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 3AL IKHWAN
    7’7’7’7’7’7 MEET ETFOOOOOOOO 3ALA FALASTINE
    ILAH TEWLA3 BEGAZ WESE7′ ADER YA KAREEM

  42. ++

    re: the media..

    get ready for Pallywood the sequel..

    ==

  43. No worries ‘Spanish Dancer.’

    Sadly, most Egyptians themselves, think they’re “Arab.” And apparently it was Gamal Abdel Nasser who decided who and what Arabs were. And the two factors that unites Arabs are that they speak Arabic and hate Israel. It’s that simple…that makes you an “Arab.” And so unfortunately, most Egyptians think they’re Arab…

    This entire notion of Pan-Arabism that has devastated the middle east didn’t exist prior to Abdel Nasser.

  44. SandMonkey says:

    Hey guys, it’s me again. First of all, the reason I want to change my name to “DirtyArab” is because I’m sick of “SandMonkey,” which is an adaptation of a racial epithet directed to my community of Arabs (come on silly fools, of course Egyptians are Arabs, read a book will ya!). I think Arabs are sand niggers (i.e, sand monkeys). I really do. Please love me American right, I’ve spewed so many crazy conspiracy theories for you guys (like the one about how this was a pre-meditated “invasion” of Egypt among the bloggers of the world who in unison used the phrase “People Power” – that’s a fucken CRAAAAZY conspiracy theory, I thought you’d love me for it). I also curse like a 10-year old brain dead child, doesn’t that make me cool?

    (P.S., for those of you who don’t get it, this is not the author of the website, I am paradying him to illustrate the stupidity of his posts)

  45. as an egyptian this really, really, really bothers me. The moment that Hamas starts to fuck with egypt is the moment they get their one way ticket back to gaza, we can’t let Egypt become another Lebanon.

  46. on a related note, regardless of what they consider themselves, Egyptians may be arab by ethinicity, but they’re coptic by blood.

  47. I don’t suppose that there can be any doubt now that Hamas, realizing treaty limitations permit only a small number of lightly-armed Egyptian troops in the area, are planning to conquer Sinai and make the peninsula another outpost of the Khomeini Empire.

  48. brooklynjon says:

    Valerie @42,

    This surely is a Flying Pig moment!
    I do feel badly for the Egyptians who are being adversely affected by all of this tho’.

    I wonder if AFP will produce some fake war crimes by Egyptian troops to broadcast to the world. Somehow, I doubt it.

  49. “P.S., for those of you who don’t get it, this is not the author of the website, I am paradying him to illustrate the stupidity of his posts”

    No. I could have sworn it was him. Maybe you should consider writing for the daily show or something. You are really funny. What is your background? (european, arab etc…)

    (PS, in case you couldn’t tell I wasn’t being serious. You are not funny and your comments were garbage. Maybe you should take a few minutes and read your comments again. Then think about how you have wasted everyones time and try not to do it again.)

  50. Egyptians are Egyptians NOT Arab. The fact that we speak arabic doesn’t make us arab anymore than say Angolans are portuguese because they speak the potruguese language.

    Touchy point people! Get it right!

  51. Valerie @42

    Thanks for the link. Interesting read. Now, if only the head of Hamas will sit down, read it, and start to get the message….

    Gila

  52. I think there are many people around the world who wish an escalation of the conflict between Ghaza and Egypt (as you can see from the names sharing their comments here..) Hamas is pushed encouraged and assisted by Israel to rush by force into Egypt… Of course there are many wise people inside Ghaza ..who should STOP Hamas and their militants from provocating the situation on the borders..according to international law and behave in a wise senceble way . And if they are in need of any commodities like food or whatever they need… this can be arranged as a trade treaty carried out by responsible representatives ,and can be transported to Ghaza in an easy smooth way.
    Hamas should be responsible and think for the risk they initiate which is not in the interest of Palestine nor Islam, Egypt or Arabs.

  53. brooklynjon says:

    anna,

    What! Mrs. Bell’s Spanish class didn’t make me a sexy Spanish bull fighter? I demand a refund! Now I’m stuck being a Brit. Wait, that’s not quite right, either.

  54. brooklynjon says:

    ET,

    I don’t think HAMAS has generally acted in the interest of the Palestinian people, so why should they start now?

  55. lol@bj, get off the jack daniels.

  56. John Cunningham says:

    The gazans are infested with islamorabies. There is no cure for islamorabies.

  57. Hmmm. I must admit to a bit of schadenfreude here. The Egyptians back Hamas, a terrorist organization devoted to perpetual jihad via suicide bombing and other forms of mass murder, to rule a state on its border. What could go wrong?

    Had you not told me they were Egyptian, I might have thought those soldiers were Israelis battling Hamas. And who knows, with a little photoshopping, change the colors of the uniforms, Reuters or BBC might pass them off as photographic evidence of the Israeli Defense Force perpetrating another Jenin-like massacre sometime in the future.

    I’m wondering if this whole problem couldn’t be resolved if the Arab neighbors and patrons of Hamas smuggled food & medicine into Gaza instead of weapons.

    With regards to the False Sand Monkey posting on this thread, I’ve never really like the “Sandmonkey” moniker. I understand the Lenny Bruce approach of rendering this particular ethnic slur meaningless by preempting its use and desensitizing people to it, taking the bang out of it. But the kind of people who indulge in ethnic slurs are not the kind of people you need respect nor worry about. Still, that little monkey in the fez is kinda funny.

  58. Egytians are arabs.

    Okay, so not all egyptians. I guess you have a shit load of different african ethniticis. But it does apear as though the leading identity in politics, demographics and culture is the arab identity.
    Fine, so not all israelis are jewish. But there are enough jewish israelis for using the national term as corresponding with the etnical.

    And that’s why, when ever that egyptian Indiana Jones guy raves about how his ancestors built the pyramids, I think to myself “no, they didn’t. your ancestors were too busy messing around in the saudi desert back then”

  59. I would like to know why the hell ANYONE would go and try to seal a border unarmed knowing good & well there are a bunch of crazed lunatics on the other side of that border with guns. I wouldn’t go there without being armed to the teeth!

  60. Honestly…I doubt Egypt has much to worry about…

    Here is my prediction:

    The Gazans will do their damage…Egypt and some other Arabs will give them money..they will go home…they will foucs again on terrorizing Israel who will be pressured to back off and then the majority of the Muslim world will say “tisk-tisk” the whole thing was Israel’s fault, with USA backing…and this was merely a brief family spat.

    The Palestinians will quickly convince one and all that they were fully the victims…that Israeli oppression made them throw rocks and shoot dogs and attack Egyptians…and most of the Muslim world…INCLUDING EGYPT will shed a tear and agree.

    Then we can get back to hating and blaming Isarel for all ME woes and excuse and justify another Palestinian fuck up.

    Anybody want to be me a big plate of humus and some good achwah?

  61. In other words…I betting status quo within about 2-6 weeks. And let the kassams fly.

  62. attaboy, howies. exactly right.

    in fact i posted evidence of that starting to happen a bit earlier.

  63. Since when were the Egyptian riot police so…gentle? Oh, it’s Egyptian-on-Egyptian action that gets them off. I see now.

  64. Melissa, you’re retarded killing a dog isn’t equivalent to killing a human..my god…

    And to all the Israelis shocked that the Egyptian police can’t keep things under control…your soldiers didn’t have much luck either, and our soldiers are put at a disadvantage because they actually have some sense of morality and human decency and a government that abides by international law, an obstacle IDF soldiers aren’t familiar with.

    Furthermore, the reason we have UNARMED BORDER GUARDS guarding our borders with two fucked up, aggressive, violent terrorist states on the Sinai is because of ou

  65. our treaty with ISRAEL that prevents us from putting sufficient numbers of armed forces in Sinai to keep control of the border…we’re limit to 750 soldiers in ALL OF THE SINAI, where they have to deal with patrolling borders, stopping smuggling, protecting millions of tourists, stopping terrorists, policing hundreds of thousands of disloyal Bedouin, and preventing human/drug trafficking…yeah, makes a lot of fucking sense, doesn’t it?

    by the way, the palestinian flag over an egyptian tower is creepy…i really do think they’re planning an all out invasion, which is why i think egyptian guardsare right to scale up the level of force…though I do wish the impoverished Egyptians in Rafah and El ARish could have more time to rip off Palestinians who are actually better off than them, as pathetic as it sounds. Once we get the border back up we should just give up on it. We only have to prevent them from coming into Egypt, and that’s it…we shouldn’t even be patrolling the tunnels…thats for Israel to deal with.

  66. brooklynjon says:

    Patrick,

    I have to assume that you know what Egypt did the last time it had more than 750 soldiers in the Sinai. And I also have to assume you know what Egypt got in exchange for agreeing to limit its troop presence in the Sinai to 750, namely the Sinai.

    And let’s see how humanitarian the Egyptian army is once the Palestinians start blowing up school buses full of Egyptian children and shooting at Egyptian civilian vehicles.

  67. I don’t know about this who threw rocks first business. I can’t understand why Egyptian soliders would have to resort to throwing rocks in the first place – they are soldiers aren’t they – Rock Throwing 101?….. when everyone knows the Palestinians have the market on throwing rocks……well, and the Irish.

  68. bj,

    I have been playing jumble words lately and was wondering if you want to play since you are obviously on call :)

    INCUVA
    NEWECH
    ALLOC
    DURGET
    COMTIA
    NAITOR

    anna or anyone else wanna play be my guest.

  69. Bad Palestinians! Just take back those new bikes they bought.

    Before you shoot the invaders use those water tanks on the reporters. You don’t want more stories/pictures of “poor Hamas” being shot at. We can recycle the old ones, use Photoshop like everyone does this days and have new articles before anyone can sneeze twice. Let those whiny bastards suck on lead. I’m sorry, I meant those “human beings” who once in a while are forced by unfair circumstances and the vagaries of life to push people off buildings. Chew on a bullet go to paradise and leave us alone.

  70. Gila @ 49,

    No dice. It was said in English. :)

  71. @Melissa in NorCal Says
    What a “human” you are! You are no different from those dogs killers in the mind you have!

  72. Two, thanks a lot but I’m more of a paper, scissors person. Two, what do you think of all this? are you happy about this? pallies injuring our literally defenseless soldiers? Just the talk of pallies with explosives roaming around Egypt is gonna bring tourism to a halt, even if they never do anything. Country doesn’t need this, inflation is sky high and employment already at a record low….

  73. anna,

    yeah yeah the Palestinians are the cause of all Egypt misery :)

  74. we obviously disagree….I am an Egyptian nationalist and I believe that the interests, welfare and security of Egyptians should be put over and above any other country’s interests.

  75. brooklynjon says:

    Twosret,

    I never had any Jumble (TM) aptitude. I got WHENCE and LOCAL before giving up in frustration.

    anna,

    I hadn’t spent a whole lotta time considering your differences with Twosret. But I wonder, given your stated view of your own position, if you have an easier time than my buddy Two accepting that (crazies excepted, of course), your garden-variety, non-hating Zionist is just you, but born to different parents.

    Aha! ATOMIC…RATION

  76. Bj and Anna,

    The current events are happening at such a bad time for me. I’m swamped and writing a line here and there. I also think the gap between my thoughts and SM is huge this time so it is kind of laughable for me how biased he is this time.

    I’m doing Jumble words everyday to keep my brain sane and it relaxes me after a long day of work.

    I will be back hopefully with a long post.

  77. anna,

    We might not be that different as you think we are it is just the matter of how we look at the big picture. Sorry for short replies.

    Oh and don’t listen to bj too much he is a sweet poison :) like the drugs he gives women :)

  78. brooklynjon says:

    It’s true. I give drugs to women, and they love me. o:-)

  79. Roman Kalik says:

    we obviously disagree….I am an Egyptian nationalist and I believe that the interests, welfare and security of Egyptians should be put over and above any other country’s interests.

    Anna, I have to point out that you weren’t all that approving of me arguing the exact same thing for Israel when it comes to the Palestinians, a few posts ago.

  80. oh god what can i’say they ‘ve lived with jewish for 60 years so they r jewish really now dont’u agree with me?

  81. two, lol ease up on BJ two, he’s pleasant to all the peoples and a bit of a whiz at jumble words too it seems but BJ that was uber creepy comment at no. 82, don’t make me have to unjumble this no: 191. two, I only got one word in your jumble game, i suck quite badly at jumble words…. i hope you get time to comment more but if you do think the way I do, then I see no problem why your loyalties should not lie with your own people. roman, and as I said before, we didn’t kick out the Palestinians from their homes. You’ve detailed how the two countries are vastly different, don’t forget that applies to history and responsibilities too.

  82. anna,

    BJ is one of those you meet at the weekest monoments in your life when you have no choice but take off your gown and let go, and all what he can think of this heartless man is his kosher pizza for lunch LOL

  83. This one is really easy I promise

    verpo
    lydam
    entelg
    rehawl

  84. especially for you two,- I hope it rekindles some national pride!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6DIbQhFrGM

    it’s bilingual so sing up everyone

  85. Thanks anna :)

    This one makes me cry everytime I hear it. Too bad the story board makes it look like a love song but I like the movie too.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gB_oDIy7tCM

  86. #86 !Twos!!! : 0

    I’m liking you more and more!! ; )

  87. intro’s great with the orchestra, nice song but you’ve totally lost me here. this song makes you cry? you know what the guy says at the start right? wa ba7ebek 7ata lama tala3i 3eni! that so should not be at the start of any love song two. And, it IS a love song, coz he says something like lama teb3edi 3ani which doesn’t make sense about a place even if you use personification. It might not be eros per se but I’m not getting how this can be nationalistic. Maybe it’s in the movie which I haven’t watched.

    stuff politics, here’s the lovely Sherihan

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WOkc7VtdO8

  88. oops, correction “it might not be eros but i’ not getting….. “

  89. anna,

    yeah if you watch the movie you will understand the song.

    You can watch it on the internet on soot we soora.com but if you are in Egypt you should be able to get a clean copy from your local video store.

    tedders,

    Poor anna she must think I’m a slut with my 86 comment LOL

  90. Poor dogs!!! Fucking people!

  91. dcat, I agree, what kind of coward shoots a dog? I hope he receives the same treatment as he dished out.

  92. Twos, I know you’re not what you wrote to anna, that doesn’t mean I didn’t like the story though!!

  93. Long live the dogs! let the Palestinians rott from poverty,lack of power, gas and supplies to hospitals.

  94. brooklynjon says:

    anna,

    I’m trying to figure out my uber creepy comment that you refer to as #82, but I think maybe it is now #74. I’m confused. Did the numbering change?

    My point (I don’t think a creepy one) is that I wonder if you can accept that Jewish Nationalists are the same as Egyptian Nationalists, except that they were born as Jews rather than as Egyptians.

    And, BTW, thank you for the kind words.

    Also, BTW, are you the same person as Anna? Or are you different people? An evil twin, perhaps? ;-)

  95. bj,

    I will only believe you if you apply it to the Palestinian nationalists too :)

    The numbers on the post are changing. Look at tedders comment.

  96. engy,

    Not really if I follow your logic then the Jews are more Palestinians than the Palestinians are Jews.

  97. the argument isn’t that jewish nationalists are different than Egytpian nationalists, its that the jewish nationalists don’t have a rightful claim to the land over which they place such strong feelings.

  98. Egyptian**

  99. Hey, tho post numbers are changing! I thought maybe Sam deleted the FAKE Sandmonkey posts but it seems he’s far to democratic for that, uumph!

    I wonder what percentage of Israeli’s could be considered extreme nationalists.
    I wonder what percentage of Egyptian’s could be considered extreme nationalists.
    I wonder what percentage of Palestinian’s could be considered extreme nationalists.

  100. brooklynjon says:

    Two,

    I don’t have a problem with Palestinian nationalism. I only have a problem with the way that the nationalistic impulse has been expressed. I think a peaceful Palestinian state living alongside a peaceful Jewish state would be a fine thing.

    Rick,

    Who does have a rightful claim to their national “homeland”? Egyptian Arabs who are originally from Arabia? French Canadians who are originally from France? The British, who are originally from Scandinavia? The Greeks who are originally from Russia? The Romans who are originally from Asia Minor? Etc, etc, etc.

    Jews have been living there for 3000 years continuously. I’ll grant that Jews do not have an EXCLUSIVE claim to the land, but they do have a rightful claim. And frankly, to the extent that they do have a claim to land (one of several competing claims, mind you), they have a claim to a lot more land than the footprint of Israel – not that I support any expansionist thinking, I’m just sayin’.

    But my point, which I didn’t take the time to flesh out, is that a nationalist should be able to accept other nationalists as having, more or less, the same motivation. As a Yankees fan, I have a grudging respect for Red Sox fans because, even though the Sox have interests opposed to my team’s, I can understand that were I from Boston, I would probably have been a Red Sox fan myself. OTOH, people who eschew baseball entirely to watch ice dancing are far more mystifying to me.

    In any event, I think it becomes much more difficult to demonize someone when you consider that – under different circumstances – you would have been that person. anna seems perhaps like an Egyptian verson of me (perhaps better looking. but not as good at the Jumble). We may have competing agendas, but that’s hardly any reason to disrespect one another, no?

  101. BJ

    “In any event, I think it becomes much more difficult to demonize someone when you consider that – under different circumstances – you would have been that person”

    An Arab guy taught me a poem by some European dude…I don’t know who and I typically don’t like poetry. But, paraphrased, it goes something like:

    How is that you shoot man
    Who in another circumstance
    You would buy a pint for

    Accident of birth…more than anything else…dictates what we think, who we kill, who we hate…unless the reincarnation thing is correct.

    I guess if I was born in Croatia…I would mostly see the world like a Croatian and hate Serbs…and vis-versa….

    Some of us do struggle to think beyond the standard…but it can be difficult.

  102. Being respectful to one another doesn’t mean that our differences are not great and doesn’t mean that the real people who suffer are going to feel much better.

    How did the world feel about the tsunami? how did the world feel about Katrina? amazingly enough those were natural disasters but the darkness that the people in Gaza lives in and the lack of medical supplies and hospitals are not by natural cause it is done by OCCUPYING forces.

    I would like you to do a case study for 10 children (any 10 children in the world) that lives in the dark for one month, not to mention the tanks, and bombings.

    How did the people of New Orleans behave when their children were hungry? how many looting and shooting happened? did anyone visit New Orleans lately? did you get warned about the grave yards and how you can get shot till this day if you are out and about at night.

    How is the city of Houston struggling with the impact of Katrina? how many Houstonians has given their privacy and homes to strangers.

    Does anyone know of another occupying forces in the world that I’m not aware of other than the “liberation” of Iraq?

    I used to think that Israel is the slut of America now I believe that America is the slut of Israel :)

    750,000 Palestinians went to Egypt and most of them left without one person dead in Egypt or in Gaza. The terrorists 750,000 bastards didn’t break into one shop or break into one house or killed innocents.

    How dare them to try to get some gas, food, and receivers so one day they know what happens in the world. The poorest house in upper Egypt with one bedroom and hosts 7 people has a T.V. but those terrorist Palestinians can’t have a T.V.

    Amazing those terrorist Palestinians should just shut up and die and rot and turn Gaza into grave yards so the Israelis turn it into settlements to host the chosen people.

    I’m very sorry for the injured soldiers of Egypt and wish this wasn’t the case I always felt for those soldiers because they represent the very poor people of Egypt and I see that the Government of Egypt is more brutal to them than those clashes with hungry people.

    Egypt never had or will have accurate statistics so we will never know how this incident affected Egypt and I’m sure the high prices were due to lack of supplies but in the next week or so I imagine that the prices will be back to normal.

    Give me liberty or give me death that was an American slogan one day but whoever said that wasn’t a terrorist indeed!

  103. And here is what the HEAD OF THE CHRISTIANS IN THE OCCUPIED LAND HAVE TO SAY

    January 22, 2008

    PATRIARCHS AND HEADS OF LOCAL CHRISTIAN CHURCHES IN JERUSALEM

    In the Name of God, end the siege over Gaza.

    One and a half million people imprisoned and without proper food or medicine. 800,000 without electricity supply; this is illegal collective punishment, an immoral act in violation of the basic human and natural laws as well as International Law. It cannot be tolerated anymore. The siege over Gaza should end now.

    Voices from our people there say “We feel the threat of being exterminated by this siege”

    In the Name of God, we, the Heads of Churches in Jerusalem and the Holy Land urge the International Community, President Bush and the leaders of Israel, to put an end to this suffering and call upon Israel to activate Prime Minister Salam Fayyad’s initiative for Palestinian responsibility control of the boarders thus ensuring sufficient normal flow of medicine, food, fuel and goods to Gaza.

    We urge the International Community and the European Union to act according to their recent pleas. There is no time to waste when Human life is endangered.

    We urge the Palestinian Leadership to unite in ending their differences for the sake of their people in Gaza . Put the differences aside and deal with this crisis for the good of all human beings demonstrating that you care for your brothers and sisters who have suffered enough already. We would say to all concerned parties; while ever you persist in firing rockets into Israel you encourage public opinion outside this Land to feel there is a justification for this siege.

    We urge Israel to act responsibly and to immediately end this inhuman siege. To deny children and civilians their necessary basic commodities are not the ways to security but rather throw the region into further and more dangerous deteriorations. This siege will not guarantee the end to rocket firing, but will only increase the bitterness and suffering and invite more revenge, while the innocents keep dying. True Peace building is the only way to bring the desired security.

    We pray for the day when the people of Gaza will be free from Occupation, from political differences, from violence and from despair. We pray for the Israelis and Palestinians to respect human life and God’s love for every human life, and to take all possible measures to end this suffering. Only bold steps towards just Peace and ending the violence will protect the Human life and dignity of both People.

    With the Prophet we keep praying and hoping;
    ” A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out.
    In faithfulness he will bring forth justice;

    he will not falter or be discouraged till he establishes justice on earth.
    In his law the islands will put their hope” (Isaiah 42:3-4)

    Heads of Churches in Jerusalem and the Holy Land

  104. Guys-

    I usually ignore Two since she is blinded by hatred…but I have to make a couple points:

    1. No other occupied countries? So Tibet does not count? Chechneya does not count? What about the Beluchi and other ethnic groups in Iran that claim territory?

    2. A whole bunch of countries were recently liberated…primarily due to Regan, a president I didn’t particularly like: Turkmekistand, Armenia, East Germany, Urkraine.

    3. By the way..the USA is responsible for freeing far more Muslims and Muslim countries than Muslims have: Examples; all the “stans” that the Russians had occupied. And let’s not forget that the many Muslims, especially Arabs, sucked up to the Russians for decades while they were repressing their brothers.

    4. In terms of our good Christian Palestinian…anybody notice he is too big of a coward to put any clear blame on the Palestinian side nor does he really come out against terrorism. Another typical Palestinian puppet.

    5. Oh…and in terms of the occupation of Iraq…why don’t you ask the Kurds who was occupying them? Oh yes…Kurds are not ARABS…therefore kind of sub-human and don’t count.

    Ugh…I can’t believe I responded to this woman who hates Jews, hates American and I bet anything IS an American.

    Two…move back to Saudia or something where there is justice…especially for women and minorities.

  105. Well…
    those shields don’t look very strong up there

  106. Maybe I am wrong, but they look like thin plastic…shielding the dust?
    Are they a special bulletproof/plastic configuration?

  107. brooklynjon says:

    Two,

    The palestinian people have suffered, but I believe you are blinded by ideology as to the cause of their suffering. The Palestinians have been abandoned as political pawns by their Arab cousins, and they have been sold down the river, first by their corrupt secular leaders who stole their money, then by their religious masters who are so filled with hatred of Jews that they would rather turn their nascent country into a military base.

    Israel pulled out of Gaza, just like the world wanted. They turned over buildings and greenhouses that were destroyed. The Palestinians could have taken the land, and the international largesse showered upon them, and tried to build an economy and a society. They chose not to.

    Now they have, de facto, an independent country of Gaza. Independent countries have closed borders unless they negotiate a treaty with their neighbor to agree on how to open it. No one will open a border with a country that is also lobbing missiles at it. They could cut the crap, negotiate a treaty with their neighbor (which would inevitably involve accepting its existance), open the border, build an economy. Thus far, they have chosen rockets instead of their children. I can feel sorry for individual Palestinians who are dragged along into this, just like I can feel sorry for the children of Sderot. But, looking deep into my heart, I have a hard time shedding a tear for the Palestinians as a corporate entity. Sorry. They have made their bed, and it is not a comfortable one to lie in. Sucks.

  108. brooklynjon says:

    Should have read:
    They turned over buildings and greenhouses that were subsequently destroyed.

  109. brooklynjon @ 104
    You bring up some points, although some of the facts you cite are just plain wrong. Egyptians aren’t arab in the racial sense, all egyptians are Coptic, have always been coptic, and will always be coptic, Egyptians have been in egypt for as long as written history exists (we basically started it) and have always remained the same people, albeit with cultural influxes from others. I have total respect for Arab jews, and jews that have continually lived in the land now called Israel for the past 3000 years, and know for a fact of the jewish egyptian community. However, here’s the main point, Jews in palestine, are PALESTINIANS of the jewish faith, jews in egypt are EGYPTIANS of the jewish faith, what you have in Israel today is people coming from all over the world with their claim to the land simply being that they’re JEWISH. These people have no right to Palestine, as they are not PALESTINIAN, there are however, jews who do have a right to the land, jews who are legitimately arab and Palestinian, and have remained in the region for thousands of years, however, not the europeans of the jewish faith who now inhabit israel. I have great sympathy for those jews who suffered througout the holocaust, however, their compensation should come from the Germans, not the Palestinians

  110. brooklynjon says:

    Rick,

    There are some Egyptians who are Coptic, and more who self-identify as Coptic. However, it is my understanding that most of the current residents of Egypt are ethnically Arabic. At least that’s how most Egyptians I know have it (It’s a fight I don’t have a dog in, as the phrase goes). It’s a battle that flares up on these pages occasionally. Perhaps EgyPeter could comment.

    Your claim about Jews in Palestine being Palestinian Jews is not correct.

    “Jewish” is both a religion and an ethnicity. Jews living in the area now called Palestine and Israel never considered themselves Palestinian, they considered themselves Jews. Ask one.

    Mizrahi Jews do not consider themselves Arabs, by and large. Sephardic Jews do not consider themselves Hispanics. Ashkenazi Jews do not consider themselves ethnic Poles or Russians. They all consider themselves Jews, ’cause we’re a nation and not just a faith. Incidentally, the Jews of Germany was somewhat unique in that they actually considered themselves to be ethnically German, and we see where it got them, but that’s beside the point.

    It’s true that Sephardic and Ashkenzi Jews were exiled quite a long time ago. My comment was in response to a statement that there was no basis for a Jewish claim to Israel. Not that all Jews have always lived there, which is patently false.

    And if individuals who left a land have no right to return to it, why all the noise about the Palestinians “right of return”?

    Two,
    some more jumbles, please.

  111. BIASS
    ROARB
    KLACEY
    THEIRE

    Easy one this time too. Where are the answers for the previous ones? Sunday one is the most difficult. Between this and Sudoko I should be able to remember you name by the age of 90 :)

  112. *Sudoku

  113. brooklynjon says:

    Twosret,

    I got LACKEY and ARBOR. I’m stumped on the other two.

  114. Either :)

  115. Basis :)

  116. Oh! BJ you give up too easily :)

    Brava Karen!

    sometimes they are so easy that you kick yourself for not knowing the word

    coash
    staln
    ceptid
    nurtue

    These are for tomorrow :)

  117. I Killed Farfur says:

    Shit is HILARIOUS. I hope the palis take over Egypt. Israel needs to seal the border NOW.

    Good to have you back, Sandmonkey.

  118. I don’t know what hurts more, the fact that our men on the front line are being attacked by Hamas or the fact that my own people are supporting Hamas instead of our own soldiers.

    As if this situation is not a large pile of manure already with the trigger happy Hamas running around Egypt, they are going to destroy what’s left of the economy we have. People were saying that this is a win win situation, the pallies buy and we sell. Guess what, they weren’t buying, they were stealing. The money has turned out to be counterfeit, hundreds of thousands of pounds was just monopoly money…
    http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&langpair=ar%7Cen&u=http://www.palpress.ps/arabic/index.php%3Fmaa%3DReadStory%26ChannelID%3D21515&tbb=1

  119. *Thank you *

  120. bj,

    I wish we have a facebook group for jumble words :) there is more into the jumble but I can’t find a way to scan it and post it here. After a long day of work it relaxes you.

    The most important thing is that you don’t focus too much on it and then come back and look at it.

    In the begining I try to cheat sometimes and ask my husband the first letter or call my in-laws and ask for clues (when I don’t know the word to start with it is really hard).

    when I started solving them four months ago I will have a paper and pen and so many trials now I look at it and I can figure it out amazing how our brain works.

    Hope you guys are enjoying as much as I do. It is fun for couples too.

  121. brooklynjon says:

    “It is fun for couples too.”

    Only after marriage. I don’t believe in premarital Jumbling. ;-)

  122. brooklynjon says:

    anna,

    Yup.

    bj

  123. brooklynjon says:

    SLANT
    DEPICT
    UNTRUE

    the first one is mocking me.

  124. Chaos

    bwahhaaaaaaa :)

  125. The one that really mocked me is the answer to my post 72 the first word I was going crazy!!!!

    VICUNA—— it turned out to be a mammal bitch LOL :)
    WHENCE
    ATOMIC
    LOCALE
    TRUDGE——this one also I got after a tip from my father in-law
    RATION

  126. premarital jumbling is better than the stuffer magazine for sure :)

  127. verpo
    lydam
    entelg
    rehawl

  128. brooklynjon says:

    I did not have Jumbual relations with that woman!
    (he says, wagging his finger)

    Prove
    Madly
    :-)

  129. Here is a very Jewish word scramble…

    Hint…no it is not an American black dude being cool

    Ready…here it is:

    yo

  130. Howie,

    Only yo Know is yo mama :)

  131. In Egyptian we say ya roh omak ;)

  132. Howie,

    Did you see Sarah Silverman on Jay Leno (I think) saying what very old Jewish people and young black men have in common? Oy, it is too funny :)

  133. Yo Karen..

    Oy…I missed it

  134. I thought it was spelled oie the way you prononuce it.

  135. Oy veh, Howie!! How could you miss it?

    It’s on YouTube. Find it. Watch it. Now!!

    Oy is Yiddish. It’s spelled with Hebrew letters. This is just the English transliteration. I guess you could spell it other ways, but know one would know what you are saying.

  136. Yeh…what did the dyslexic, Jewish rapper say?

    Oy Oy Oy….wud up?

  137. Roman Kalik says:

    Anna,

    roman, and as I said before, we didn’t kick out the Palestinians from their homes. You’ve detailed how the two countries are vastly different, don’t forget that applies to history and responsibilities too.

    *nod* Except that our history is vastly more complicated than “Jews expel, Jews to blame”. I seem to recall a certain Arab Liberation Army alliance between Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon… a few more I can’t quite recall at the moment… back in 1947.

    You know, when the Arab armies invaded a minute after the British left the region.

    And I wouldn’t forget Nasser’s conquest (and subsequent treatment) of Gaza, either. They weren’t exactly given citizenship, were they? Though Nasser had no problem supporting them in all Fedayeen-related matters…

    So yes, Egypt shares quite a lot of historical responsibility, if you look at the matter with unbiased eyes.

    I don’t know what hurts more, the fact that our men on the front line are being attacked by Hamas or the fact that my own people are supporting Hamas instead of our own soldiers.

    As if this situation is not a large pile of manure already with the trigger happy Hamas running around Egypt, they are going to destroy what’s left of the economy we have. People were saying that this is a win win situation, the pallies buy and we sell. Guess what, they weren’t buying, they were stealing. The money has turned out to be counterfeit, hundreds of thousands of pounds was just monopoly money…

    Those who support the Muslim Brotherhood would obviously support Hamas as well. After all, they’re basically one and the same group. It’s a sad affair when these people can’t see beyond their party affiliation, though…

    And yes, Hamas has apparently been organizing counterfeit money printing en-masse.

  138. Brooklynjon,
    Well, i wasn’t making the point as to whether egyptians consider themselves coptic or not, i’m was simply stating that modern day egyptians are by and large the descendants of the ancient egyptians which inhabited egypt thousands of years ago, regardless of how foriegn invasion may have changed the landscape, and, in that sense, have a claim to the land. I’d also that the jewish “ethnicity” can be heavily argued, and that prior to the creation of israel, many jewish egyptians considered themselves egyptian before they were jewish. I’d point to the argument of the khazars as being the origins of the ashkenazi jewry, (an argument to which i’m sure you’re familiar) and would also point out that a comparison of the palestinians “right of return” and that of the jews to israel is blatantly innacurate, as the jews had been gone from israel for hundereds of years, (enough time to blend in, and actually become part of the other ethnicities in societies the jews had settled into, albeit, at times persecuted members of said societies) whereas the palestinians have been gone for what amounts to 50-60 years. I think that the logic that all jews are some-how racially linked by their religion has been the basis of much of their persocution over the centuries, and I find it quite ironic that the same jews persecuted for being a so called “non-aryan race” (although science would show evidence to the contrary) would endorse this idea to justify taking another people’s land.

  139. I’d also say* @ line 5

  140. Roman Kalik says:

    I’d point to the argument of the khazars as being the origins of the ashkenazi jewry, (an argument to which i’m sure you’re familiar)

    Yes, we Ashkenazi Jews have often heard this non-argument in the Middle-East, in some vain Muslim attempt to say that we’re not really Jews. I won’t bother addressing interest-born crock science.

    i’m was simply stating that modern day egyptians are by and large the descendants of the ancient egyptians which inhabited egypt thousands of years ago

    I wouldn’t be so sure about that. Egypt was heavily colonized by its invading Arabs.

    I’d also that the jewish “ethnicity” can be heavily argued, and that prior to the creation of israel, many jewish egyptians considered themselves egyptian before they were jewish.

    Have you bothered asking the actual Jews about this fact? Thought not. Perhaps you missed something that is quite central to the Jewish faith – the restoration of the country, the rebuilding of the temple, and the gathering of all the Jews living in the diaspora.

    But of course you missed it – you never did bother with it in the first place.

    I think that the logic that all jews are some-how racially linked by their religion has been the basis of much of their persocution over the centuries

    How very interesting, you must have studied history for quite some time before you reached this conclusion. Being a minority group living (in the case of both Europe and the Middle-East) in lands populated by religions that claimed to have fully replaced Judaism, and made it irrelevant, had nothing at all to do with the matter, eh?

    and I find it quite ironic that the same jews persecuted for being a so called “non-aryan race” (although science would show evidence to the contrary) would endorse this idea to justify taking another people’s land.

    Ah yes, but of course. Is this where I laugh or cry at your pathetic non-logic? Tell me, was there a nation of Palestine that the Jews conquered, or was there a sparsely populated region that the Jews started buying up and re-populating, without forcing out people living in existing population centers? And what prompted the Palestinian exodus? Was it the Jews (who for some reason weren’t kicking anyone out for over fifty years of Jewish state building and development) or the invading Arabs (with their many armies of… liberation)?

  141. We Egyptians- still care to help Palestinians although they did a real fatal mistake towards Egypt when they smuggle forcibly inside Egypt destroying the border fence in a barbaric way.We want them to proof they were entering Egypt cause they were hungery and short of many commodities and not cooperating in a conspiracy with Israel or another countries to invade Egypt( very dangerous to them,to palestine cause and to Arabs and Islam as a whole)……
    First:They should control their side of the borders.. organize the way of visiting Egypt in a lawful ordeals and acceptable reasons..IT is not allowed for someone as individual to enter Egypt to buy potatoes, bread or butane-gas.. All goods they need and is available in Egypt in enough amount that if we sell it to them it will not cause shortage to The Egyptians living in Al-Areesh,Sheikh Zouid or Egyptian Rafah.
    A trade treaty could be arranged and tradesmen on both sides can carry it smoothly and regularly.. They pay for it in sound legal money not false sheikels or Dollars.

  142. ET-

    Yes…that is how it OUGHT to be…

    But my point has long been that Gazan leadership has never put an emphasis on being a good neighbor…their emphasis has been on just what you are seeing…aggression as a means to achieve their purposes…

    Old habits apparently are pretty hard for them to break.

  143. Roman Kalik-
    Firstly, DNA test have proven that egyptians are by and large egyptians, regardless to colonizing forces throughout history, and remain as a unique racial entity (a simple search online is all you need to verify this), so no, even though egypt was colonized by the arabs, greeks, and turks, they remain to be egyptian till this day, and even if they were to be racially mixed, they have much more of a right to egypt than the almost completely european assimilated ashkenazi jews do to israel. I also have bothered asking this question, as some of my parents’s closest friends were egyptian jews, and prior to the creation of israel, they were generally accepted as egyptian. You seem intent on repeatedly accusing me of non-logic, which is quite amusing as you seem to lack the basics of logical forethought in the matter, as i never accused ashkenazim of not being jewish, however, i did state that the ashkenazim jews have a very, very weak (if any-according the khazar theory,) racial link to the ancient hebrews, many of which are the ancestors of modern day syrians and lebanese. The idea that the jews in israel peacefully bought all of those bad palestinians’ land is hillarious, and anyone with a rudimentary understanding of history would point to jewish terrorist attacks and organizations and massacres such as Dier Yassin as an example of these “peaceful” offers to buy palestinian land, not to mention all the land captured in the ensuing wars, and the illegal settlements being built to this day. Also, the logic that buy buying land in a soveriegn country you can carve out your own country is inherently flawed, as i assure you that no matter how much land you own in any nation, it is illegal to proclaim it your land a country in and of itself and then proceed to carry out terrorist attacks on surrounding soveriegn nations, and that this would ellicit a military response anywhere in the world, not just in the middle east.

    -”Being a minority group living (in the case of both Europe and the Middle-East) in lands populated by religions that claimed to have fully replaced Judaism, and made it irrelevant, had nothing at all to do with the matter, eh?”

    Because the persocution of Jews in WWII had nothing to do with their percieved race, right? If you’re really that desperate to try and debunk my argument as non-logical, then you’de do well to not make such absurd claims, as the the one persocution that invariably lead to the rise of zionism and creation of israel was on a racial, and not religious basis. The idea that opposition to israeli nationalism is part of some old “muslim” scheme, is old and tired, as middle eastern people of all relgions have opposed Israeli nationalism, including terrorists such as Luttif Afif, the head terrorist in the munich massacre who’s father was christian and who’s mother was…..what’s this? Jewish…..oh my, it seems that there are Arab jews after all, so much for your tired rant.

  144. DNA tests* @ line 1

  145. brooklynjon says:

    Rick,

    One generally cannot look deeply into oneself and know with certainty where all his ancestors lived 2000 years ago. Further, since one is likely to have thousands of ancestors (if not more) from that era, it is really a meaningless thing to know. If it turns out that you were the product of a rape by an invading Mongolian 1000 years ago, do you have an obligation to go back there? The whole thing is nonsensical.

    My father longed to return to the holy land (call it what you will) because of it’s centrality to our nation, not because he did a DNA analysis and found that most of his ancestors belonged there. When you become Jewish, you are not merely an adherent of the religion, you join the nation, and you inherit all the national aspirations (both the individual ones, and the corporate ones). So, yeah, I may have been descended 1300 years ago from someone who never saw Israel, but that doesn’t have a whole lot of meaning to me now. We have been longing to “return” for 1800+ years. I inherited that from my father, my grandfather and so on.

    As far as the Palestinians are concerned, most of them are descended from people who also didn’t live in Israel/Palestine. The Arab population expanded tremendously as the Zionist influx started, as there were suddenly economic opportunities in places where previously there had been just sand. The population of Jerusalem was a few thousand. The farmland of Israel was mostly (not entirely, mind you, but mostly) desert. The population of the land was far smaller – both of Arabs and of Jews – than it is now, and than it was in 1947 for that matter. So either both groups have a claim, or neither group has a claim.

    But history offers guides as to what to do when both sides have a claim – partition. This was done in 1923 (IIRC – feel free to correct me) when Transjordan was sliced off the Palestine Mandate, with 83% of the land. And then again in 1947 when the remaining land was split, more or less evenly, between Jewish and Arab homelands.

    The Palestinians who left, left A) in part because some of the Jews encouraged them to leave, B) in part because some of the invading Arab armies encouraged them to leave, and C) in part because some of the Arabs wanted to leave. They anticipated returning after the Jews were exterminated, and claiming the Jews property. They chose wrong, and there Arab brethren put them into refugee camps where they stay. Somehow, my heart manages not to bleed too heavily for them.

  146. Brooklynjon,
    At this point, the argument has broken down to mere facts, and biases. In your rebuttal you stated that DNA and inheritance doesn’t matter, and yet you go on to point out that
    -As far as the Palestinians are concerned, most of them are descended from people who also didn’t live in Israel/Palestine. The Arab population expanded tremendously as the Zionist influx started, as there were suddenly economic opportunities in places where previously there had been just sand. The population of Jerusalem was a few thousand. The farmland of Israel was mostly (not entirely, mind you, but mostly) desert. The population of the land was far smaller – both of Arabs and of Jews – than it is now, and than it was in 1947 for that matter. So either both groups have a claim, or neither group has a claim.
    which in and of itself is faulty on a factual level, (in that a quick look at a demographics chart :D emographics in Palestine[12]
    year Jews Arabs
    1800 6,700 268,000
    1880 24,000 525,000
    1915 87,500 590,000
    1931 174,000 837,000
    1947 630,000 1,310,000
    (Y. Gorny, 1987, ‘Zionism and the Arabs, 1882-1948′, p. 5 (italics from original)
    would show that since 1800 there was a significant arab population in palestine, (considering how small the land is) and that there were in fact palestinian arabs. Ignorning this fact, you had even stated earlier that DNA and inheritance of a land is moot in whether someone should live there, making your claim that the palestinians were descendent from other arabs who immigrated to the area pointless in and of itself. I believe a lot of the problems in our society come when you mix religion with politics (be it islam, judaism, or christianity,) and i also recognized the need of the jews to have a homeland where they would not be persocuted by outside forces, I simply don’t believe that their religious beliefs give them a right to take land away from another people who had done no harm to them, (i mean….Germany’s a pretty big country, i’m sure you could carve out part of it) As for your argument that DNA doesn’t matter, in a sense it doesn’t and in a sense it does. Perhaps its true that thousands of years back, a mongolian raped your ancestor, but you are still, by and large, part of that nation, regardless of if you have 1 or 2 ancestors of a different nationality. It is in this sense that i belive that ashkenazim jews, are european, and have always been european. What they started out as may be subject to debate, however i think its clear that the ashkenazi jews today have by and large assimilated into the european societies they were a part of, combining their rich jewish traditions with those of their native lands to create a rich background in each of their individual countries, which is where the true ashkenazi jewish identity lays, just as the egyptian jewish identity lays in the combination of “jewish” and egyptian traditions and culture.

  147. Roman Kalik says:

    Rick, do you honestly believe that the persecution of Jews started and ended with Nazism? And for that matter, that the Holocaust was the sole reason for the creation of a country that was being created for over forty years before WWII (and officially declared as the promised ideal by the British 20 years before the war).

    Zionism has nothing to do with seeing Jews as a race, but rather everything with seeing Jews as a national group. And while Egyptian Jews may have been accepted as Egyptian at some point, it was largely to Israel that they went when you guys gave them the boot, not to an Arab country or to Europe. It wasn’t the Egyptian Jews that you asked how they felt or what they wanted – it was their former neighbors, the ones who didn’t lift a finger when your government confiscated their property and called them all traitors.

    And speaking of genetics, though I’m hardly bothered by them, studies have found that Jews from Ethiopia share unique genes with the Jews of Ashkenaz. Funny, that.

    Oh, and if you can locate this mythical sovereign historical state of Palestine, let me know. I only accept independend sovereign states, mind, not “part of the Empire of the _”. And we could argue endlessly about who started killing whose civilians (and I could quite easily point out Haj Amin il-Husayni, and how until his organized riots and bloodbaths in 1929 the only remotely armed Jewish group in existence was a Guild of Guardsmen), but I simply can’t be bothered to argue on it with you. You and history live in two separate realities.

    And please, before you tout that “Khazar” theory that the Arab world embraces so much, learn some history. Please do.

  148. The fact is, Roman Kalik, that there while there may have been zionists in israel forty years before the war, it was the holocaust that created widespread sympathy among both jews and gentiles for the creation of a jewish state in palestine, and essentially created israel. now, while i do not condone the forced exodus of egyptian jews, the egyptian government in 1948 was quite non-existant, and if a country as large and established as the US had to resort to putting its japanese american population in internment camps, its comes as no surprise that (as unfortunate as it may be) the egyptian government did not treat all egyptian jews fairly following Jewish terrorist and espionage attacks on Egyptian territory. As for the khazar argument, i quite frankly couldn’t care less if its true or not, thousands of years of assimilation into european society have made the ashkenazi jews by and large jews by practice only. To maintain that palestine was not an independent sovereign state and therefore could be carved in impunity is a pathetic attempt at an argument, as at the time, half of the world was under foriegn occupation, and ergo was full of, in your eyes, non-existant states. I suppose that its pointless to argue with someone who maintains that me seeing the holocaust as AN ESSENTIAL cause for the creation of israel is simply me being a mindless, jew-hating arab (although i’m neither).

  149. @ 150
    (i posted this earlier, but it was “awaiting moderation” and didn’t show up so:)
    Brooklynjon,
    At this point, the argument has broken down to mere facts, and biases. In your rebuttal you stated that DNA and inheritance doesn’t matter, and yet you go on to point out that
    -As far as the Palestinians are concerned, most of them are descended from people who also didn’t live in Israel/Palestine. The Arab population expanded tremendously as the Zionist influx started, as there were suddenly economic opportunities in places where previously there had been just sand. The population of Jerusalem was a few thousand. The farmland of Israel was mostly (not entirely, mind you, but mostly) desert. The population of the land was far smaller – both of Arabs and of Jews – than it is now, and than it was in 1947 for that matter. So either both groups have a claim, or neither group has a claim.
    which in and of itself is faulty on a factual level, (in that a quick look at a demographics chart :D emographics in Palestine[12]
    year Jews Arabs
    1800 6,700 268,000
    1880 24,000 525,000
    1915 87,500 590,000
    1931 174,000 837,000
    1947 630,000 1,310,000
    (Y. Gorny, 1987, ‘Zionism and the Arabs, 1882-1948′, p. 5 (italics from original)
    would show that since 1800 there was a significant arab population in palestine, (considering how small the land is) and that there were in fact palestinian arabs. Ignorning this fact, you had even stated earlier that DNA and inheritance of a land is moot in whether someone should live there, making your claim that the palestinians were descendent from other arabs who immigrated to the area pointless in and of itself. I believe a lot of the problems in our society come when you mix religion with politics (be it islam, judaism, or christianity,) and i also recognized the need of the jews to have a homeland where they would not be persocuted by outside forces, I simply don’t believe that their religious beliefs give them a right to take land away from another people who had done no harm to them, (i mean….Germany’s a pretty big country, i’m sure you could carve out part of it) As for your argument that DNA doesn’t matter, in a sense it doesn’t and in a sense it does. Perhaps its true that thousands of years back, a mongolian raped your ancestor, but you are still, by and large, part of that nation, regardless of if you have 1 or 2 ancestors of a different nationality. It is in this sense that i belive that ashkenazim jews, are european, and have always been european. What they started out as may be subject to debate, however i think its clear that the ashkenazi jews today have by and large assimilated into the european societies they were a part of, combining their rich jewish traditions with those of their native lands to create a rich background in each of their individual countries, which is where the true ashkenazi jewish identity lays, just as the egyptian jewish identity lays in the combination of “jewish” and egyptian traditions and culture.
    (also, congrats on the Giants winning)

  150. brooklynjon says:

    Rick,

    “there may have been zionists in israel forty years before the war”
    Actually, the Zionist movement began in the 1800s.

    “it was the holocaust that created widespread sympathy among both jews and gentiles for the creation of a jewish state in palestine, and essentially created israel”

    The terms of the British Mandate incorporated the language of the Balfour Declaration and were approved by the League of Nations Council on July 24, 1922, although they were technically not official until September 29, 1923. The United States was not a member of the League of Nations, but a joint resolution of the United States Congress on June 30, 1922, endorsed the concept of the Jewish National Home.

    “its comes as no surprise that (as unfortunate as it may be) the egyptian government did not treat all egyptian jews fairly following Jewish terrorist and espionage attacks on Egyptian territory.”

    Are you arguing that interment is equivalent to expulsion and seizure of property? Interesting.

    “thousands of years of assimilation into european society have made the ashkenazi jews by and large jews by practice only.”

    So their distinctive language, traditions, music, and cuisine count for nothing? The fact that Jews have a religion that is distinct from the other European ethnicities is icing on the cake. It is not the cake itself. And this assimilation of which you speak is a very, very modern phenomenon.

    “To maintain that palestine was not an independent sovereign state and therefore could be carved in impunity is a pathetic attempt at an argument”

    That’s not Roman’s argument. His argument is that there never was a Palestinian state. Never an independent entity. Not ever. What I’ll add is that even when the Arabs had it in their power to create this state, after the 1948 war of attempted annihilation of the Jews, there was no interest in it. When Egypt had Gaza, there was no big interest in a sovereign Palestinian state there. Ditto for Jordan and the West Bank. No one cared. (No one cared much about Jerusalem either then, but that’s another story) It’s only when the Jews captured it that the Palestinian nation and their “inalienable rights” were suddenly recalled – for the first time.

    So the bottom line is that it would be nice to give the current Arabs in Palestine their country – for the first time in their proto-national history. And the proper way to do that is by partition. And the next thing for them to do is to cut the crap, stop lobbing missiles, and build their society.

    And the question of whose great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather lived where could be assigned given all the respect it deserves. Which is not much.

  151. well, i wrote a long response to your original rebuttal, but its “awaiting moderation” and so i guess you have yet to see it, all in all, you’re taking a lot of my argument out of context, as i was refering to the race of the ashkenazi jewry rather than their cultural difference from europeans, and was arguing that it was in their combination of jewish and “european” culture that the ashkenazi identity could be found, rather than a state in “the promised land”. Also, i never made the argument that internment was equivilent to expulsion, but did make the argument that if a country with resources as vast as the US interned thousands of its own civilians, what would you expect a newly formed egypt to do when faced with the same dilemma (although not justifying it) Also, many, many japanese americans lost their posetions, property, and buisiness’s as a result of internment, so to equate it wouldn’t be as far fetched as you think (at least the egyptian jewry had the opportunity to start life anew without having to wait years in internment camps). Now to state that palestine itself was a nation may or may not be true, however it was always an important part of the larger nations surrounding it, whether it be that of the levant, or the ottomon empire, which by no means cheapens it as land to be carved out by outside forces. The fact that britain promised palestine to the early zionists doesn’t justify your claim to the land, as britain’s acquisition of palestine was one built on imperialism and broken promises to the arabs following WWI. I find, as these arguments so often do, the debate has evolved to the endless murk of the israeli-right-to existence, which in all honesty is moot at this point, however, i still don’t think that you can equate Israeli Nationalism to Egyptian Nationalism (which is what this debate started as)

  152. Brooklynjon,
    well, i wrote a long response to your original rebuttal, but its “awaiting moderation” and so i guess you have yet to see it, all in all, you’re taking a lot of my argument out of context, as i was refering to the race of the ashkenazi jewry rather than their cultural difference from europeans, and was arguing that it was in their combination of jewish and “european” culture that the ashkenazi identity could be found, rather than a state in “the promised land”. Also, i never made the argument that internment was equivilent to expulsion, but did make the argument that if a country with resources as vast as the US interned thousands of its own civilians, what would you expect a newly formed egypt to do when faced with the same dilemma (although not justifying it) Also, many, many japanese americans lost their posetions, property, and buisiness’s as a result of internment, so to equate it wouldn’t be as far fetched as you think (at least the egyptian jewry had the opportunity to start life anew without having to wait years in internment camps). Now to state that palestine itself was a nation may or may not be true, however it was always an important part of the larger nations surrounding it, whether it be that of the levant, or the ottomon empire, which by no means cheapens it as land to be carved out by outside forces. The fact that britain promised palestine to the early zionists doesn’t justify your claim to the land, as britain’s acquisition of palestine was one built on imperialism and broken promises to the arabs following WWI. I find, as these arguments so often do, the debate has evolved to the endless murk of the israeli-right-to existence, which in all honesty is moot at this point, however, i still don’t think that you can equate Israeli Nationalism to Egyptian Nationalism (which is what this debate started as)

  153. Brooklynjon,
    well, i wrote a long response to your original rebuttal, but its “awaiting moderation” and i just finished writing a response to this, but it won’t let me post anything sizeable till the sandmonkey gets back online, so, I suppose the debate will just have to wait, keep an eye on this post in the near future in case it pops up

  154. ” And the next thing for them to do is to cut the crap, stop lobbing missiles, and build their society.”

    That’s going to be the deal breaker there. If the Palestinians ever do get a sovereign state it will just be a matter of time until terrorists start lobbing missiles at Israel again. At that time Israel would have the justified right to attack the new state with overwhelming force. One of the many reasons why the Pali’s leadership (if you can call it that) will never pursue being a real nation, the only pursuit they can aspire to is the destruction of Israel in the muddied condition of an occupied (it is not) land with groups they can’t control.

  155. Roman Kalik says:

    Rick, If your parameter of comparison between Egyptian nationalism and Israeli nationalism is one based on racio-ethnic considerations (in turn entering the “Israeli legitimacy” argument through the back door, an argument that you call moot yet still use without noticing) then we really have nothing to talk about.

    Because, you see, Rick… what matters is what people believe and feel, not how far back you can trace them (and who, and how, we chose to allow entry into our exiled national group is up to *us*. At least Jews don’t have to try and argue around the Arab conquest and subsequent colonialism and population shifts in Egypt, saying that when the conquerors came to Egpyt, they essentially became Coptic).

    And Britain’s claim on Palestine is no less justified than the Ottoman Empire’s, Salah a-Deen’s empire, or any other imperial power that conquered what was little more than a land trade route between the Middle-East and North Africa. For that matter, Zionism was quite alive during the Ottoman era of Palestine, and it was actively negotiating with the Ottoman rulers. In fact, the first large waves of Jewish aliyah came not under the British, but rather under the Turks.

  156. What do you think of this samsonblinded.org/blog/israel-cannot-blockade-gaza.htm ? Shoher is arguably the most right Israeli today, but he argues Israel should talk to Hamas as Egypt will not maintain the blockade of Gaza.