Gotta love that "International community"

It sure supports tyrants and human rights abuses:

According to some U.S. media reports,
Pelosi said in March that what happened in Tibet is a challenge to the
conscience of the world. But people have to ask who is posing this
challenge. The truth is, normal life was resumed in Lhasa after the
Chinese government took appropriate actions according to law. More than
100 countries in the world have expressed their understanding of and
support to Chinese government's actions, an indication that the
international community sides with China on the issue. 

See, it's just the evil americans who have a problem when the chinese kill their own people, the rest of the world….not so much…they are kind of supportive of it. Silly Americans.

Continue reading this press release. It's great stuff.

And people wonder why I have no respect for the UN! 

0 comment on Gotta love that "International community"

  1. dick
    April 9, 2008 at 2:33 pm

    Or, perhaps, it’s not a problem when a communist government engages in imperialism – just when the nasty democracies do it.

    Reply
  2. Eric
    April 9, 2008 at 2:50 pm

    No one respects the UN, not even the tyrants who have learned to use it for their own purposes.

    Reply
  3. anon
    April 9, 2008 at 2:50 pm

    Americans are very supportive of China : they buy thousand of millions $ of chinese junk every year…

    Reply
  4. TeacherLady
    April 9, 2008 at 2:53 pm

    It’s okay because the world has no problem reaping the rewards of a society that practices violations of human rights, deplorable labor conditions, animal abuse etc. because they can get their cheap plastic shit for an incredibly low price! I know that part of the wonder that is capitalism results in just about everyone favoring cheap-ass Chinese products to keep their bottom line in the black, but when do we put our money where our mouth is and say we’re boycotting them until they address their human rights issues? I know how naive and unrealistic that sounds, forgive my momentary lapse in judgment…

    Reply
  5. L.
    April 9, 2008 at 2:57 pm

    dick i cant tell: are u defending democracies or are u accusing them of engaging in imperialism? or wait…is it okay to engage in imperialism. im quite confused.

    I think the torch-related fiasco in Paris shows that alot of people have a problem with what China is doing actually…it just didnt get enough coverage.

    Reply
  6. Valerie
    April 9, 2008 at 3:21 pm

    Dick,

    The comment by L. just above should be a warning to you: there are people around here that don’t understand just how funny the notion of Americans as “imperialists” really is. “American Imperialism” is like “American torture” — a whole world away from the real thing.

    Reply
  7. L.
    April 9, 2008 at 3:42 pm

    Valerie

    you are right, american imperialism isnt funny. its overbearing, self righteous and condescending most of the time.

    Reply
  8. bleh
    April 9, 2008 at 3:54 pm

    “you are right, american imperialism isnt funny. its overbearing, self righteous and condescending most of the time.”

    Care to elaborate?

    Reply
  9. L.
    April 9, 2008 at 4:00 pm

    Jan 11th 2007:

    THROUGHOUT THE WORLD TODAY, GROUPS DEMAND THAT GUANTANAMO BE SHUT DOWN, CALL FOR FIVE YEARS OF INDEFINITE DETENTION AND TORTURE TO END.

    On January 11th, 2002, the first prisoners arrived at the American detainment camp of Guantánamo Bay, Cuba. January 11th, 2007 marks five years of indefinite detention at Guantánamo. On that day, thousands of people will act together to demand an end to torture and indefinite, illegal and immoral detention of hundreds of men at Guantánamo. Actions are planned in front of the U.S. Supreme Court in Washington, DC, in New York, but also in many countries such as England, Holland, Sweden, Australia, Poland and Hungary.

    The International Federation for Human Rights (FIDH), along with FIDH’s American member organization, the Center for Constitutional Rights (CCR) and with Witness Against Torture, is calling for January 11th, 2007 to be the International Day to Shut Down Guantánamo.

    Reply
  10. L.
    April 9, 2008 at 4:01 pm

    Jan 11th 2007:

    THROUGHOUT THE WORLD TODAY, GROUPS DEMAND THAT GUANTANAMO BE SHUT DOWN, CALL FOR FIVE YEARS OF INDEFINITE DETENTION AND TORTURE TO END.

    On January 11th, 2002, the first prisoners arrived at the American detainment camp of Guantánamo Bay, Cuba. January 11th, 2007 marks five years of indefinite detention at Guantánamo. On that day, thousands of people will act together to demand an end to torture and indefinite, illegal and immoral detention of hundreds of men at Guantánamo. Actions are planned in front of the U.S. Supreme Court in Washington, DC, in New York, but also in many countries such as England, Holland, Sweden, Australia, Poland and Hungary.

    The International Federation for Human Rights (FIDH), along with FIDH’s American member organization, the Center for Constitutional Rights (CCR) and with Witness Against Torture, is calling for January 11th, 2007 to be the International Day to Shut Down Guantánamo.

    http://www.fidh.org/spip.php?article3944&var_recherche=guantanamo

    Reply
  11. Amir
    April 9, 2008 at 4:44 pm

    Not to condone the inaction by other countries, but “expressing disturbance” or whatever Pelosi decided to say is nothing if not backed by action. In fact, giving the people hope of some sort of rescue or repercution on China and then the US just letting the whole thing blow over (which i can guarantee will happen) gives false hope and is terrible in and of itself. Stop defending bullshit “expressions of concern” they mean nothing, and without more, the US is a player in this international community you condemn.

    Reply
  12. Toady
    April 9, 2008 at 4:46 pm

    What we should be asking is why the Olympic Committee handed over the Olympics to these tyrants to begin with. The atrocites in Tibet have been known for decades.

    L;

    I wish those groups had as much interest in demonstrating against the genocide in Darfur as they do against the imprisonment of 400 terrorists in Cuba. I suppose that since Americans aren’t killing Sudanese, mass slaughter is of no consequence.

    Reply
  13. leo
    April 9, 2008 at 4:48 pm

    L,

    Even though you posted your response twice I cannot see the connection to American imperialism there.

    As somebody before me said, care to elaborate?

    Reply
  14. leo
    April 9, 2008 at 4:50 pm

    Amir @ 11,

    Agree completely.

    Reply
  15. dick
    April 9, 2008 at 5:02 pm

    L:

    As Valerie implies, you’re illustrating my point.

    Many people have a screen of preconceptions between themselves and the truth. They can’t imagine a communist government being imperialist. Despite all the countries previously occupied by the Soviet Union, or those currently occupied by China. The USA has to be their root of all evil, and the facts mustn’t get in the way of this interpretation.

    Which is why, as another example, they don’t notice – or they explain away – the fact that Mao murdered 76 million Chinese citizens and Stalin murdered 43 million Russians (both estimates from Rummel’s democide site). It’s much more comfortable for them to regard Bush as history’s most evil man.

    Reply
  16. Rob
    April 9, 2008 at 6:18 pm

    i know this will be a little controversial in some eyes, but i think:

    Tibet > Palestine

    Reply
  17. EgyPeter
    April 9, 2008 at 6:22 pm

    Gitmo = China’s policies in Tibet.

    LOL! Sounds about right…

    So filthy Terrorists, getting 3 square meals a day (most Egyptians currently come nowhere near this), playing soccer, receiving their 5 daily prayer calls, korans AND prayer mats is NOT A BETTER LIFE than waging jihad in some bombed out cave in Afghanistan? Come again!??

    Some people’s undue and illogical hatred of America blinds them to reality. I say, ‘go to hell,’ and ‘tough shit!’

    Reply
  18. anon
    April 9, 2008 at 6:31 pm

    China, USSR, Cuba, Noth Korea, Israel, USA = shit.

    Italy, Swiss, New Zealand, France, Luxemburg, Sweden, Germany, Austria, Spain = good guys.

    Reply
  19. Matthew
    April 9, 2008 at 6:50 pm

    My family, upset at the the human rights abuses and religious persecution in China, tried one year to not buy anything made in China. It was nearly impossible; we gave up a few weeks before Christmas. I’m with TeacherLady– we gotta put our money where our mouth is. I’m glad that the Olympics are being used to shame the Chinese government into (hopefully) reforming their human-rights practices, but the honest truth is that we’ve been supporting these deplorable practices by rewarding them economically.

    Reply
  20. Xylo
    April 9, 2008 at 8:31 pm

    Matthew;

    The Chinese have been abusing the Tibetans since the mid 50s. Nobody had any problem buying Chinese goods since ,and that was before Chinese goods became universal.

    Sadly, convenience comes first. I think the best thing to do right now is for tourists not to go there for the Olympics. The games are supposed to gain income for the host country.

    Reply
  21. brooklynjon
    April 9, 2008 at 10:52 pm

    anon,

    So, if I get it correctly, complicity in the Zyklon B gassing of 11 million innocents midcentury is what gets you on the “good guys” list. With the exception of NZ, which gets it for suppressing their large aborigine population and for long maintaining an official policy of white supremacy. Oh, I get it! Fealty to the concept of Master Race is the unifying theme!

    Forgive me for disagreeing, but IMHO, putting DPRK and USSR in a group with Israel and the USA is like grouping lemons and limes with Jupiter and Saturn on account that they’re all more or less spherical.

    Reply
  22. Nomad
    April 9, 2008 at 11:02 pm

    the Dalai Lama is a great communicative person ; be aware, people, there are more buddhists than you could ever imagine :mrgreen:

    the torch-related fiasco in Paris shows that alot of people have a problem with what China is doing actually…it just didnt get enough coverage.

    that’s right ! coverage , they got enough I suppose, but not in China of course, he, why would an imperialist country scare its people ? showing with the MSM that the World don’t like what they think is a pass for a world recognition as a well-bred capitalism !

    Anyway, I am for the suppression of this torch procession : that is all but only business for the CIO members, not for the sportmen/women.

    Reply
  23. tedders
    April 10, 2008 at 12:44 am

    “China, USSR, Cuba, Noth Korea, Israel, USA = shit.

    Italy, Swiss, New Zealand, France, Luxemburg, Sweden, Germany, Austria, Spain = good guys.”

    Hehehehe, some one failed their math courses big time!!!! anon must have been a liberal arts major!! :)

    Reply
  24. NB
    April 10, 2008 at 6:16 am

    “the rest of the world….not so much…they are kind of supportive of it.”

    Yes, in the same way the Americans are supportive of the Egyptian governments killing of its own people.

    Reply
  25. Don Cox
    April 10, 2008 at 8:41 am

    China has been an empire throughout most of its history. In the 20C the Communist government made sure Tibet was still part of the Empire, and tried to include Vietnam too.

    Periodically through history the Chinese Empire has disintegrated, with much chaos and bloodshed. The current government will do everything it can to prevent that happening again. It has disaffected Muslim minorities as well as Tibetan Buddhists. (And Falun Gong).

    Being English, I don’t feel on safe ground criticising anyone for Imperialism. The USA has no great record of imperialism – the Philippines and Hawaii are the obvious examples. I don’t think it makes sense to call US foreign policy “imperialism”. There is no US Empire to compare with the Roman, British, French or Chinese Empires. Nor will there be.

    Reply
  26. L.
    April 10, 2008 at 8:58 am

    I posted twice by mistake.
    lets take the most basic understanding of imperialism, so basic its the first thing that pops out if u google imperialism.
    “the forceful extension of a nation’s authority by territorial conquest establishing economic and political domination of other nations.” OR “attitude of superiority, subordination and dominion over foreign peoples.” I prefer the second one.

    Don Cox:
    just because the times have changed and what has come to constitute “an empire” can no longer be compared to the british empire does not mean that the concept is obsolete. Forceful extension into foreign territory is imperialism whether it was to “bring civlization to the barbarians” in the nineteenth century or to “bring democracy to the freedom haters” in the twenty first.

    Toady:
    Those groups are groups of lawyers who DO actually call for taking the case of Darfur to the ICC. that is precisely why they also criticise Guantanamo prison, as lawyers, because of the blatant violation of all international standards of legal criminal procedure. even if they are “terrorists” (by the way whatever happened to innocent til proven guilty) no one has the right to lock people up for years without a warrant, without a charge, and without legal representation, without a trial. Since Americans are so above the law, they can kill an egyptian in egyptian waters just because he approached an american ship (although it was unmarked) or they can jail “terrorists” indefinitely just because they seem suspicious, or they can ignore security council resolutions just because they want to enter Iraq, or they can refuse to ratify the founding statutes of the International Criminal Court just because they intend to violate it. seeing ones own policy, people and culture as above and superior to all else, to the extent that you CANNOT even SEE the link between american policy and imperialism or violations of International Law, is imperialism in one of its purest forms.

    I really find it difficult to discuss Guantanmo

    Reply
  27. Craig
    April 10, 2008 at 11:17 am

    but when do we put our money where our mouth is and say we’re boycotting them until they address their human rights issues? I know how naive and unrealistic that sounds, forgive my momentary lapse in judgment…

    TeacherLady, there’s no evidence to suggest that China will address its human rights issues because of a boycott. On the contrary, there is plenty of evidence those abuses will get worse, if China’s economy is degraded. The Chinese were just about the poorest people on the planet under Chairman Mao, and his repression of his own people is legendary. He’s also the one who invaded Tibet in the first place. Things are much better in China now than they were in the 1950s and 1960s, when China had virtually no exports at all. Don’t get me wrong – I’d dearly love to see the world (the US in particular) cut down drastically on cheap goods made in China. But I’m fairly certain that economic hardship in China would cause conditions to worsen, dramatically.

    Reply
  28. Jeremy
    April 10, 2008 at 4:00 pm

    At the risk of sounding like a nerd, the best put down of the UN I’ve ever heard was on the sci-fi TV show Stargate SG-1 when the villains came to negotiate a treaty:

    Weir: “Well, as you said, I have brokered my share of international negotiations; this will just be my first interplanetary one.”

    Jackson: “The System Lords can’t be trusted, either as a group or individuals. They’re posturing egomaniacs driven by an insatiable lust for power, each one capable of unimaginable evil.”

    Weir: “See — why should I be nervous? Sounds like an average day at the United Nations.”

    Reply
  29. Nomad
    April 10, 2008 at 7:28 pm

    I agree with Craig on that one ;
    I just read that there are severals riots in China, mostly because of the life expenditures ; it’s not only in our countries that such increases have occured, it’s world wide

    Reply
  30. tommy
    April 10, 2008 at 10:52 pm

    Italy, Swiss, New Zealand, France, Luxemburg, Sweden, Germany, Austria, Spain = good guys.

    Germany, Austria and Italy: great fellows those countries have proven to be in the last century and it looks like everyone has forgotten and forgiven France’s colonial wars in the Maghreb, too! The Swiss have been minding their own business — except to launder bad folk’s money and stolen gold periodically. The Swedes have done much the same — except to provide the Nazis with the steel for their war machine. Spain has been unimportant since its own colonial area drew to a close — of course, what an era of peace and tranquility Spain ushered in for natives of the New World! New Zealand hasn’t done much of anything since the Maoris ruled the land.

    Well, that leaves Luxembourg without blemish, at least. And everyone knows you can depend on the might of Luxembourg in times of need! The Allied Powers of Luxembourg, Andorra, Monaco, Liechtenstein, and the Duchy of Grand Fenwick are indefatigable opponents of evil in today’s world.

    Reply
  31. bleh
    April 10, 2008 at 10:54 pm

    “Yes, in the same way the Americans are supportive of the Egyptian governments killing of its own people.”

    Good point. The US should cut off the “peace money” we send Egypt every year and then you guys can finally lose another war for the glory of Egypt.

    Reply
  32. Nomad
    April 10, 2008 at 11:55 pm

    Tommy grand Duché du Luxemburg has world tresories in its banks : the globalist capitalists know that (and a close relation too, he works there)

    Reply
  33. Adam B.
    April 11, 2008 at 9:09 am

    22. Craig:

    I don’t think you’re right here. For one, a comparrison with the China under Mao isn’t appropriate. Before the Chairman came to power, the average chinese had never known anything else than poverty and abuse from those in power (local or foreign), so Mao had no trouble in getting their support for a new society where “everyone were equal”. This system turned out to be considerably less than what had been promised, but the chinese have been moving in the right direction, step by step, to get where they are today – a market economy cloaked by a veil of despotism disguised as socialism. For all the bad things that can be said of China, the standard of living has been increased markedly and most chinese have experienced this to one degree or other. Presently, China is an economic beast, solely driven by the desire for more wealth, and it’s greatest fear, on streetlevel as well as government level, would be to see this economic growth halted. Most chinese have tasted some measure of what a modern society has to offer and are not willing to be pushed back down the ladder again. That is why boycots WILL work – the chinese leaders’ position depends on them being able to keep the locomotive going. If it stops or is even put in reverse their days will be numbered – more than a billion chinese will not accept losing what they have struggled to gained…!

    Reply
  34. lasati
    April 11, 2008 at 8:30 pm

    I feel like out of all the countries that could project substantial military power throughout the history of human civilization, the USA has been the among most benevolent. Just to name a few other empires:

    Roman Empire
    Mongol Empire
    Inca Empire
    Persian Empire
    British Empire
    Spanish Empire
    Napoleonic France
    Belgium (Congo anyone?)
    Italy (Ethiopia, Libya anyone?)
    Nazi Germany
    Czarist Russia
    Empire of Japan

    Each one of these has a litany of atrocities and abuse committed during the time they were considered the world’s most powerful.

    Just as a thought experiment, imagine if any of these empires developed the (at the time) technological equivalent to the first nuclear bomb. The first stealth technology. The first substantial satellite network. The first high-power military computers.

    They wouldn’t be giving out billions a year in foreign aid, that’s for sure. If anyone is curious, total aid to Egypt from the USA adds to about 63 BILLION. Most of that is “don’t start a stupid war with Israel” money, because Israel has nukes and the US doesn’t want to see nukes going off in oil land.

    From a strictly military perspective, it would have been so much easier if the USA just invaded the entire Middle East the minute the Berlin Wall fell and ethnically cleansed any group that opposed. Who would have stopped them? Most of those Empires I listed above engaged in ethnic cleansing of some indigenous group which had the misfortune of living on land the empire desired. But instead of ethnic cleansing troublesome peoples (like China is doing to Tibetans), the USA gives them money and says ‘please be nice.’

    Reply
  35. Craig
    April 11, 2008 at 8:49 pm

    Adam,

    If it stops or is even put in reverse their days will be numbered – more than a billion chinese will not accept losing what they have struggled to gained…!

    Well, you were in agreement with me until this part, at least :)

    I think the collapse of China’s exports would herald in a return to the days of slave labor in factories, work camps and communal farms. These things all still exist in China (that’s why Chinese products are so cheap) but to a much lesser degree. Workers are just exploited now, they aren’t for the most part completely unpaid and completely lacking in personal freedom. It wouldn’t take much to set back the clock to the way things were before.

    And I disagree with you about the ability of the powers that be to get that done. History is full of examples of how it works. You find likely candidates amongst the oppressed and give them power over their peers, and they become oppressors themselves. It’s easier to do in some societies than others. Unfortunately, the Chinese have been doing things that way for thousands of years, and don’t have much of a history of peasant rebellions. It’s nice to think that “people power” will work in China, as it has in other places, but it isn’t necessarily true.

    Reply
  36. Snoby
    April 11, 2008 at 10:57 pm

    A follow up to Craig’s (#30) comment; Why the west with all the preachings of democracy invest billions and billions of $$ in China? Why not in eastern Europe and Russia (as rewards of getting rid of communism)?? What is the difference between China and Cuba? Why offering the Olympic to begin with? was China 4 years ago any different? I think this so called democracy is all a joke . It only reflects a relatively larger playing field where all is the same ouside the field boundaries. I can’t explain it to myself (can anyone explain)

    Reply
  37. tedders
    April 12, 2008 at 2:44 am

    ” Why not in eastern Europe and Russia (as rewards of getting rid of communism)??”

    Eastern Europe? Yes. Russia? No.

    Reply
  38. Jabal Shada
    April 12, 2008 at 3:20 am

    lasati,

    Thanks for that enjoyable post, I don’t disagree much with what you’ve said. But I would like to point out that the apparent altruism of US handouts of help and cash is, besides being altruistic, also strongly linked to nascent aspirations for a globalist system that dates from Rockefeller’s time [see August Review website for more on this]. Also, our aversion to graduate level imperialism has something to do with our geographic position and ability to get a lot done without conquering and slaughtering about the place. Prosperity has its advantages– for the other guy, too.

    Reply
  39. Snoby
    April 12, 2008 at 4:53 am

    Tedders; Communism ended in Russia and Eastern Europe around the same period. Why the west and particularly the USA didn’t even try to strengthen the link immediately afterward? They poured instead $$$billions into China communist) with kids , women and youngmen working under horrible working conditions? Does anyone have an answer? and why not Cuba? Why verbal / political fight for democracy occurs every onnce and a while ,then everything go back to normal (where are the priciples?). unless it is all like a hollywood movie whatever the producer wants defines reality!!

    Reply
  40. ella
    April 12, 2008 at 7:22 am

    Snobby

    West and the USA poured billions of dollars into communist china and billions of dollars into non-comunist Russia.
    I understand that for you $120bln the west invested in Russia only in 2006 is nothing, isn’t it?
    Eastern Europe got also tons of help, as well as introduction and acceptance to EU. That they did not use it more efficiently is mainly a fault of eastern europeans whose nomenklatura weathered out the change in system and got into best management positions in a post-communist world.
    As for Cuba …..why don’t you ask Cuban politburo if they would like to change their politics in return for some investments in their country. If the answer would be yes then of course some western countries would be happy to invest there.
    Although you moan about lack of democratic principles in the US your views and knowledge of the world are closer to the knowledge of the Hollywood liberal movie producer than to reality of the world out there.

    Reply
  41. ella
    April 12, 2008 at 7:45 am

    Uh and Snobby.
    That question you asked “Why the west and particularly the USA didn’t even try to strengthen the link immediately afterward?”.
    LOL
    That is a most funny statement/question I have read in a long, long time.

    Reply
  42. Adam B.
    April 12, 2008 at 1:57 pm

    Craig:

    “Unfortunately, the Chinese have been doing things that way for thousands of years, and don’t have much of a history of peasant rebellions.”

    This is my point – for the first time in history, the chinese are experiencing some form of overall prosperity and sense of individual accomplishment. Education and awareness of the world around them is also more prevalent than ever before. The average chinese on the street has become (slightly) more critical of the system in which he lives, and the economics rewards and possibilities he has experienced now is something he will not easily give up again. The government can attempt a crackdown, but I believe it will only be a short lull in China’s road to democracy…

    Reply
  43. Snoby
    April 12, 2008 at 6:02 pm

    Ella;
    Thanks for the wise comment LOL. WOW ; $120billion invested in Russia in 2006 (mostly to ensure Gas supply- i.e. same love story with Saudi Arabia).On the other hand how can you analyze $ 272 Billion EU investment in China in 2007 (that’s EU only), and most of it in manufacturing industries where work conditions don’t meet basic human right criteria. Why the same yardstick isn’t used with Cuba , or you mean to ell me China provides more rights to its citizens than Cuba does??. Or you mean to tell me Saudi Arabia and Dubai provide basic human dignities to their foreign labours form Philippine, Korea and Vietnam.. LOL!!!

    Reply
  44. Snoby
    April 12, 2008 at 6:03 pm

    Ella;
    Thanks for the wise comment LOL. WOW ; $120billion invested in Russia in 2006 (mostly to ensure Gas supply- i.e. same love story with Saudi Arabia).On the other hand how can you analyze $ 272 Billion EU investment in China in 2007 (that’s EU only), and most of it in manufacturing industries where work conditions don’t meet basic human right criteria. Why the same yardstick isn’t used with Cuba , or you mean to ell me China provides more rights to its citizens than Cuba does??. Or you mean to tell me Saudi Arabia and Dubai provide basic human dignities to their foreign labours form Philippine, Korea and Vietnam..

    Reply
  45. ella
    April 12, 2008 at 7:04 pm

    Snobby

    And all working conditions in Russia meet basic human rights, particularly in the provinces?
    You wrote that the West and USA did not try to strengthen ties between Eastern Europe and the west – majority of the countries in a former Eastern Europe now belong to EU and are allies of USA, if that is not strengthening of ties what is it?
    You complained about large investment in China as opposite to no investment in Russia – there was investment in Russia.
    Now you complain that the west invest less in Russia than it invest in China – perhaps that’s because China has population of 1,321,851,888 as opposed to 142,000,000 people in Russia. Not to mention that Putin is no friend to the west, and some russians still long for the rule of Stalin.
    China changed somewhat from the times of Mao and does provide now more rights to its citizens than Cuba. Cuba whose new president is a brother of the old president..
    As for Saudi Arabia and Dubai (why Dubai and not Sharjah or Ajman I don’t understand) – Dubai and Saudi Arabia provide as many basic human dignities to their foreign labourers from Philippine or Vietnam as to their labourers from Egypt or Pakistan. Why you are not protesting about no protests from brotherly ME countries but protesting about not many official protests from USA about citizens from Vietnam?

    Reply
  46. Snoby
    April 12, 2008 at 7:42 pm

    Ella; we can talk till tomorrow if we keep looking at 100 ugly examples of USA and EU ionies and you comment on 5 here and I choose 5 others. My key point is for us is to have a healthy questioning attitutde an don’t take media and political headlines in the west as it is. It is important that we show that the jokes of the past can’t be played on us in today’s world with electronic communication. For instance, Ella why you keep ignoring the ironic treatment of Cuba vs. China? Why US shows all patience and use of political solution with N.Korea and Iran and jump the gun for Iraq (rightly???!!). If a country like the USA claims itself to be a superpower example to the world they must use same yardstick with all similar problem. What is right and wrong in Cuba should be the same right and wrong in china, Saudi Arabia, Russia or anywhere alse. Otherwise it is not a democracy, but arrogance when you name same action different names as it suits the ignorant audience.

    Reply
  47. ella
    April 13, 2008 at 5:40 pm

    Your key point is not to have “healthy questioning attitude” towards all media and all countries but to have “healthy questioning attitude” towards western media and western countries.

    If Cuba politbureau does not wish to change its policy it is treated accordingly.
    China did changed its policy somewhat from the times of Mao and therefore it is treated accordingly. Of course its treatment of dissidents is atrocious but still it is better than it has been during Mao era.
    And what about Russia? You want that the west will say “yes, your highness” everytime gospodin Putin make a statement?
    US according to Iran does not show the “patience” with IRI, and North Korea is having talks with US, Japan and South Korea.
    If US and/or Israel would attack IRI because of its Leader commitment to destroy Zionist Entity you would protest that US illegally invaded sovereign country. When US is not attacking Iran you are complaining that US should attack Iran because it attacked Iraq.
    Iraq invaded Kuwait, Iran did not recently invade, openly, any country.
    Iran and Saudi Arabia, many people in the ME and a lot of Chinese are saying that the West treatment of them is arogant because the West is trying to treat everybody by the same yardstick, but ME/far eastern traditions and culture should be excepted from that treatment, should be treated differently. Now you are saying that the West is arrogant because the West is not trying to treat everybody by the same yardstick
    If the Western countries protest against stoning, cutting hands, wrong treatment of some people in the ME and/or in China it is the Western arrogance and the West should not be pushing “dimokracy” and dimocratik propaganda on to the countries of ME/PRC. On the other hand if the western countries do not protest against stoning, cutting hands, wrong treatment of some people in the ME and do business with some of ME countries or with PRC it is arrogance because the west is not pushing dimokracy on the ME/PRC and not cutting the diplomatic relations with these countries.
    Now if the west would cut relationship with some of the government of the ME countries you would have written that it is an US arrogance because that is ME countries alone who can decide who can be president/premier etc and decide on their government so the west does not have a right to dictate politics to other countries and break relationship with all and the sundry just because there is no democracy there or less democracy or something like that.

    Snobby, you want to have a cake and eat it.

    Reply
  48. Moose
    April 14, 2008 at 2:04 am

    China, at present, holds Americas testicles in a vise. Sino-investment in the US economy has propped up our economy to the extent it exists now. Americans are poised on the knife blade of Asian approval. Should the US government or it’s people piss off the totalitarian government of the decendants of Mao, they will adjust their investments in a way that will bring on $6 gasoline and food prices that will place a majority of Americans at poverty levels suffered around the world.

    So we’re being tweaked in our perceptions, outlooks and beliefs. How very American of those damned commies.

    Reply
  49. Adam B.
    April 14, 2008 at 7:56 pm

    49. Moose:

    That’s partially true – the american economy has become dependant on chinese factories and chinese investment, but remember that the same is true the other way around. China would be nowhere if not for the massive export to the western countries, particularly the USA. China is, unfortunately, a major player in present day world economics and cannot be ignored by anyone. Individual boycot is the only way to change this position, and possibly chinese internal politics…

    Reply
  50. Spanish Dancer
    April 14, 2008 at 8:26 pm

    I know alot of Americans who would rather be poor than have our foreign policy dictated by another country. Many of them also don’t care to see our country dictate foreign policy to others. I’m not saying this is always the result of “enlightened” thinking; it’s often more along the lines of, “why the f**k should I care what they do in f**king Iran? Why don’t we just let them f**king deal with their sh*t themselves? Jesus f**king christ, f**k the UN!” These are often libertarians, but not necessarily, and many libertarians I know will give you much more eloquent reasoning for why we shouldn’t care what they do in f**king Iran.

    Of course, there are all kinds of opinionated people of all stripes around here, as evidenced by the general “clowns-to-the-left-of-me, jokers-to-the-right” situation in Washington. But one thing I do believe is that at some point we’ll have to innovate to get around the oil problem. It may just be my long-dormant American pride talking, but I really do believe that when gas hits upward of $5 or $6 per gallon, you’ll finally see Americans get off their asses and begin investing more seriously in alternative energy. Maybe by then we’ll be out of Iraq and finally have some descretionary income again…if there’s one thing we get, it’s the status of our savings accounts.

    Reply
  51. brooklynjon
    April 14, 2008 at 9:18 pm

    Spanish Dancer,

    I understand that a lot of isolationists died on September 11.

    I agree that energy is the key. I think a major Kennedy-going-to-the-moon type national committment is in order, and I’ve thought that for some time.

    Reply
  52. Toady
    April 17, 2008 at 8:46 pm

    BJ;

    i should point out that Saddam’s invasion of Kuwait and the subsequent stationing of American troops in Saudi Arabia brought about 9-11.

    The isolationists would have said the US shouldn’t have gotten involved in saving Kuwait. In regards to Sept 11, they may have been right.

    Reply

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