Carter’s statement is bullshit

The biggest piece of news in AP right now is that Carter managed to get a concession from Hamas regarding co-existence with Israel:

Carter relayed the message in a speech in Jerusalem after meeting last week with top Hamas leaders in Syria.
It capped a nine-day visit to the Mideast aimed at breaking the
deadlock between Israel and Hamas militants who rule the Gaza Strip.

Hamas leaders "said that they would accept a Palestinian state on
the 1967 borders" and they would "accept the right of Israel to live as
a neighbor next door in peace," Carter said.

But you don't get to know what they really agreed on until the middle of the piece..

Carter said Hamas promised it wouldn't undermine Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas'
efforts to reach a peace deal with Israel, as long as the Palestinian
people approved it in a referendum. In such a scenario, he said Hamas
would not oppose a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza.

However…

Hamas spokesman
Sami Abu Zuhri in Gaza said Hamas' readiness to put a peace deal to a
referendum "does not mean that Hamas is going to accept the result of
the referendum."

Yeah. Okay then! Nevermind!

Comments

  1. A lot of peace talks achieve nothing, but this is the most worthless set of meetings ever. I wonder if Carter believes he is close to achieving peace. He lives in a fantasy world. Really I feel sorry for him.

  2. A lot of hot air in that part of the world…

  3. christina/ohio says:

    Carter is still trying to be revelant. The title should be changed to “Carter is Bullsh!t”

  4. RocketRay says:

    When are Palestinians going to understand that Israel is not gonna go away? I swear they’re like little children who want a pony for their birthday, and they live in an apartment building. It ain’t gonna happen! Get used to it!

    I wonder if Carter believes he is close to achieving peace.

    At least he’s trying. Someone needs to since we’re stuck with Chimpy McFlightsuit for 9 more months.

  5. Studying the ME history and ironies lead one to conclude that Arab’s acceptance of Israel in the region isn’t enough. Keeping the large masses of Arab population under the stigma of one conflict and another willl keep them busy talking, learning nothig, being ignorants and underdeveloped. Otherwise, imagine them taking a path like Japan or China took following WWII and post Maoe’s communism,where would that lead cultural survival of few millions Israelis versus hundreds of millions of Arabs?. I read once that Hamas is a creation of Israel . It is shoking, but not totally outrageous suggestion when you check the list of their actions in the last 20 years.

  6. There is so much outrage because Hamas refuses to accept Israel. Why should they be forced to recognize a state that was forced upon the people of the ME? I think they can have a 2 state solution with out recognition. The Arabs have every right to be at war with Israel. I am often puzzled by the World’s gasp when more radical groups call for the elimination of Israel. My bigger question is why was there was NOT such an awful outcry at the “creation” of Israel that displaced thousands, if not millions of people which was a major, horrific human rights violation. Makes me wonder!

  7. They may seem irrelevant, but it is significant that a former US head of state actually sat down with Hamas. Maybe it will bring them an ounce of legitimacy, which would in the end help the process as they need to be recognized and brought to the table during talks. They’re the ones who keep committing violent acts against Israel which the Israelis use an excuse to do whatever the hell they want even if it means violating basic human rights. You can’t just leave Hamas out. They use violence as a means of being heard because no one else is listening. So this may be a lot of hot air but at least Hamas was brought to the table for once.

  8. Gee Sandmonkey, you seem to have gathered a few hamas groupies to this post.

    Carter is an asshole who needs to retire or take a nap or something. His ignorant ass has become a useful tool to some real unsavory charactors.

  9. brooklynjon says:

    John,

    Hamas can do whatever they please. The point isn’t that they should recognize Israel. The point is that, given that they don’t, how on earth can Israel negotiate with them? Or more to the point, why would they? Irrespective of whatever injustice was perpetrated on the Palestinians, they have to decide if they want a negotiated peace. Part and parcel of negotiating, is giving the other side a reason to negotiate. You can say “Come and negotiate so I can kill you and take everything,” but that will not entice me to come to the negotiating table. It might feel good to say it, but it’s counterproductive if peace is what you’re trying to achieve. OTOH, if the Palestinians want war, let them say it, and let them stop complaining about Israel’s actions.

  10. Egyptian in Germany says:

    Hi SM,

    As you know I am a great admirer of Sadat and what he did. I believe Carter did a lot of support for Egypt and Israel to reach a peace agreement. That is why I do not question his intentions when he reaches out. At worst, on the basis of the Hamas statements after his meeting, it would show how pathetic and insincere they are in reaching a solution that most Arabs are willing and that Sadat many years ago advocated.
    Egyptian in Germany

  11. “the creation” of Israel that displaced thousands, if not millions of people ”
    John –
    If you are talking about the displacement of the phalestinians from what is now israel, then we’re talking about thousands. if you include into the math the jews that where displaced from their homes in Egypt, Maroco, Yemen, Tunis, Iraq, Iran and other, and found shelter in israel, THEN the figure is a few millions.
    I’m not even gonna mention the european jews who were lucky enough the escape the holocaust, but europe in itself is a good example for huge population movement as a result of war, and yet, they somehow mangaed to seal themselves in refugee camps for 60 years.
    Please note, also, that the ‘displacement’ of phalestinians was a result of a war the arab world declared against israel, not the other way around, so if we’re looking for someone to blame, why not Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Iraq and the phalestinians themselves?

    and one more thing: “think they can have a 2 state solution with out recognition.” Could you please explain how two states can co-exist side by side without recognition? can the USA, for example, not recognize Canada? that will only mean that the former sees the later as it’s own, and that actually the opposite of a two state solution.

  12. Good heavens – to the people posting here who think the creation of Israel DIDN’T result in outrage – please read some history ok? Not revisionist history, not “narratives” – but real history, facts about what happened.

    The Yishuv – the Jewish community in the Palestine Mandate – was under a blockade. Jerusalem was beseiged and starving – the absolutely desperate survivors of the Holocaust were in some cases forced back to Europe by the British government and in the East, the Iron Curtain was falling. There were pogroms against the survivors AFTER the camps were liberated. Pogroms against Jews broke out in the Middle East.

    There were explicit threats against the Jewish communities throughout the Arab world, including dire warnings made in the United Nations. When the Partition Plan was declared, civil war broke out immediately and as soon as Israel declared independence she was attacked by several Arab states.

    The Arab League economic blockade remains in effect today and it’s had a large influence on the oil industry as a whole, not only against Israel but against diaspora Jews. Britain didn’t even recognize Israel for several months but DID respect Jordan’s ethnic cleansing of the “West Bank” and East Jerusalem and also its annexation of those lands. Please note that there has been continuous Jewish residence there for over 3,000 years and after 1948 Judea, Samaria and East Jerusalem were denuded of their Jews and the holiest of Jewish religious sites were beyond the reach of Jewish worshippers until after the 6 Day War in 1967.

    There have been several wars against Israel and countless terrorist attacks. The Arab world today is nearly judenfrei – “free” of Jews – who’ve lived throughout the Middle East for thousands of years. Iran threatens to make Israel extinct yet nobody seems to be taking them seriously. Their hideous language is echoed by Hamas, by Hezbollah – people are incited to believe that Jews are evil, and this is broadcast on TV, repeated in graphic cartoons, taught to impressionable children.

    I do not understand the utter lack of compassion for the people of Israel, who are there because of the wholesale assaults, expulsions and attempted extermination of the Jewish people that has been ongoing since the Romans destroyed Judea (and before!). This includes (at best) second hand citizenship in the East under Christianity AND Islam.

    Most of the Jews in Israel are indigenous Middle Easterners, though many others have fled the brutality of Europe and the Soviet Union. Israel exists because a) there are deep historic ties between the Jewish people and the land of Israel but especially b) because Jews are manifestly not safe ANYPLACE and need a home.

    Why there isn’t some recognition of their humanity throughout the Middle East, or of the amazing diversity within Israel, including the Arab, Druze and Bedouin who live there as citizens, is beyond me. It’s possible for the entire Middle East to grow, to experience a renaissance – but not by attacking, decade after bloody decade, a tiny nation that is one of the oldest and most reviled in the world – yet has within its ideals and within its people, the possibility of helping so many others.

    Meanwhile, no Arab solution to the situation of the Palestinians seems to involve either any realism or any creativity – this in an enormous region with huge resources of the most valuable substance in the world.

    This is a shame.

  13. Given that so many people from Africa and Asia are migrating to Europe, why are the Palestinians so set on getting their land back? They could all migrate to, say, Sweden, and the Swedes would welcome them and probably roll over and play dead if the Palestinians declared that it was their land and didn’t belong to the Swedes anymore.

  14. John;

    The Arabs were not the only people to have lost land during the wars of the last century. Other people have lost a lot more than they did. You need only to look at a map of the world before and after the world wars. In all these cases, the governements and the people involved decided that what they lost was unrecoverable and the best way to move forward was to make peace with the enemy, not to devolve into ireddentist claims that continue a never ending and self destructive state of conflict. Nor were the millions of refugees created from those wars kept locked up in camps for six decades for the purpose of propaganda. Rather they were resettled and given citizenship in new countries.

    There’s a lesson to be learnt here, don’t you think?

    RocketRay;

    You’re not far from the truth. The average age of Palestinians is 15. That may be a good part of the problem. You’re dealing with teenagers who think it’s more fun to blow stuff up than to take on boring subjects like economic development or job creation.

  15. brooklynjon says:

    Toady,

    Hey, I’m 40, and I still think it’s more fun to blow stuff up that create jobs or develop the economy! As they say, you can take the kid out of the city, but you can’t change the fact that blowing stuff up is fun!

    And now, it’s haiku time! (yes, I’ve posted this before, but it’s so appropriate)

    Lewinsky has recently shown
    What Kaczinski must surely have known
    That an intern is better
    Than a bomb in a letter
    When deciding how best to be blown

  16. ” John Says:
    April 22nd, 2008 at 12:42 am

    There is so much outrage because Hamas refuses to accept Israel. Why should they be forced to recognize a state that was forced upon the people of the ME? I think they can have a 2 state solution with out recognition. The Arabs have every right to be at war with Israel. I am often puzzled by the World’s gasp when more radical groups call for the elimination of Israel. My bigger question is why was there was NOT such an awful outcry at the “creation” of Israel that displaced thousands, if not millions of people which was a major, horrific human rights violation. Makes me wonder!”

    Now do you have a problem with the Kurds demanding Arabs get out of their lands? Or the Copts. There so many other subjugated peoples in the Middle East and North Africa whose lands were taken by Arabs. Surely you don’t have a problem if they were to demand an end to the illegal and horrific Arab occupation of their lands that has been ongoing for the last 1400 years. Then there is Darfur, where Arabs have killed a hell of a lot more Black Africans than the Israeli’s have killed Arabs. Of course to you the lives of Arabs are paramount, all other lives have no value. Indeed the Saudis and the Kuwaiti’s expelled nearly 400 thousand Palestinians after the first Gulf War. So you are demanding that in addition to committing national suicide the Israel treat their sworn enemies better than their fellow Arabs treat them and certainly better than the way Arabs treat non-Arabs. The Palestinians are fortunate indeed they have Israel and Jews for their enemies. Anyone else with Israel’s comparative military advantage would have tired of this crap by now and simply wiped the Palestinians out of Gaza.

  17. Bob,

    “Now do you have a problem with the Kurds demanding Arabs get out of their lands? Or the Copts. There so many other subjugated peoples in the Middle East and North Africa whose lands were taken by Arabs.”

    Sorry. Not a parallel at all. There is no evidence of population displacement in any of these areas. There was Arab occupation, yes. But there was no significant displacement of the native population.

    Most people who are called Arabs today aren’t ethnic Arabs and have no blood relationship to the occupying Arabs you’re talking about. We were occupied by Arabs – who were much smaller in number than we were and so we demographically absorbed them. Over the centuries, we may have adopted their religion and their language and some aspects of their culture but very few of us actually have any Arab blood.

    The tiny minority who do have Arab blood are known as ‘Ashraf(honorables)’ and given a lot of respect by some Muslims because they descend from the Prophet and his family/trible. But these are definitely in the minority.

    Most Middle Eastern Arabs actually descend from families that have Jewish/Christian/Zoroastrian roots before conversion to Islam.

    And most Kurds still live in Kurdistan. They may suffer from occupation, oppression and lack of self-determination by Arabs/Turks/Iranians but – like the Palestinians – they will continue to resist that in one form or another until there is some kind of resolution. So will the people of Darfur. I think the Palestinians are about as likely as the Kurds or Darfurians to conveniently choose immigration to Sweden just because someone else wants their land. This is a region where people have deep roots and long memories. Compared to some of the other similar conflicts in the region, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a fairly young one.

    I’m afraid that the situation with Israel and the Palestinians – where one population is uprooted and disposed of like used napkins to be entirely replaced by a completely new, unrelated population – is pretty unique though.

    And again, I don’t see the relationship between that and Saudi or Kuwait expelling Palestinian expatriates. I am an expatriate in the UAE and if I ever violate the terms of my work visa – or if my services were no longer needed – I would have to go back home. Those are the terms on which I agreed to come here. This is not my country and will never be. It’s just where I currently live and work. Unlike the Palestinians, however, I have a home to go back to. And if someone tries to expel me from my ancestral homeland, well, I am certainly not going quietly.