We won’t allow Egyptian Jews in

Even really old ones. They might ask for their property that we confiscated or something. We can't have that now, can we? Israel Maztav has a very interesting commentary on this:

 These people had no intention of demanding any money or property from
the Egyptians or their government. But what if they had? What if they
wanted to move back to Egypt? The Egyptians would have said no. So why
do they complain so much when we say no to the 'Palestinians' moving
back? You can bet that those 70 and 80-year olds would at least have
been willing to live in peace. Are the Egyptians afraid of Jews moving
back? Do they feel guilty about what they did to their Jews? Do they
realize that if the Jews ever took them to an international tribunal
the Egyptian government may not have a leg on which to stand?

Dude, you are over-thinking it. They are Jews, therefore any logical rules will not be applied to them in Egypt. End of story.  

Comments

  1. WongTwee says:

    Arabs didnt lose land in a war, they were unjustly pushed off of it. when instigated to fight back, shit for brains like you claim that it was fairly lost in a war.
    Sorry to burst your bubble but this fact is not true.
    Yes Egypt conceded to the existence of Israel, which in fact did cause it heaps of problems, but for all Arabs to concede to stolen land that was lost in a calculated genocide is not an option to the majority of the Arabs.
    It’s no big deal really, Israel can keep the land. Because as I said, I support Israel 100%. Thank God they are in existence doing what they are doing because I never could understand why the hell everyone hates them so much and I almost believed the stories of innocent holocaust slaughter, but with what they are doing now in Israel and what Haganah and Howard Stern gang did. It all makes sense how only an ingrate could turn from oppressed to oppressor so damn quick. Hence explaining the whole hate filled history of the mob of celestial ingrates of the tribe of Israel, or at least whats left of there descendants that havent accepted Christ already and been eternally saved. Even accepting Islam would be better that being a fascist squealing whining lying Zionist.
    The war was instigated by the criminal gangs, x-Holocaust Hitler camp survivor thugs and were labelled as terrorists the world throughout. Until that is a few stand up Jews dug deep into their pockets and turn popular opinion in their favor. Just like I wish some righteous Christians or Muslims would do to stop this [non Orthodox Jewish plunder]. Jews have been hated, deal with it, dont invent that it is alright to go against your creed and kill innocent people that just happen to be living on land that was your fore fathers that you had never seen before. Yet you tell Palestinians to accept that. So why don’t you all accept that it is wrong and you are hated. Just live with it instead of maiming and killing, duh. You God fearing bunch of ingrates.
    Yes I am a fundie hater but that doesnt mean I condone cut throat slithering tactics of a bunch of deranged ex concentration camp thugs who commit murder and are catapulted into God like stature.

  2. WongTweeAgain says:

    orry to be your BuzzKill but Arabs didnt lose land in a war, they were unjustly pushed off of it. when instigated to fight back, shit for brains like you claim that it was fairly lost in a war.

    Sorry to burst your bubble but this fact is not true.
    Yes Egypt conceded to the existence of Israel, which in fact did cause it heaps of problems, but for all Arabs to concede to stolen land that was lost in a calculated genocide is not an option to the majority of the Arabs.

    Now

    It’s no big deal really, Israel can keep the land. Because as I said, I support Israel 100%. Thank God they are in existence doing what they are doing because I never could understand why the hell everyone hates them so much and I almost believed the stories of innocent holocaust slaughter, but with what they are doing now in Israel and what Haganah and Howard Stern gang did. It all makes sense how only an ingrate could turn from oppressed to oppressor so damn quick. Hence explaining the whole hate filled history of the mob of celestial ingrates of the tribe of Israel, or at least whats left of there descendants that havent accepted Christ already and been eternally saved. Even accepting Islam would be better that being a fascist squealing whining lying Zionist.

    I had some Jewish Pussy, it was actually quite nice, very clean, but still, reality check here buddy!

    The war was instigated by the criminal gangs, x-Holocaust Hitler camp survivor thugs and were labelled as terrorists the world throughout. Until that is a few stand up Jews dug deep into their pockets and turn popular opinion in their favor. Just like I wish some righteous Christians or Muslims would do to stop this [non Orthodox Jewish plunder]. Jews have been hated, deal with it, dont invent that it is alright to go against your creed and kill innocent people that just happen to be living on land that was your fore fathers that you had never seen before. Yet you tell Palestinians to accept that. So why don’t you all accept that it is wrong and you are hated. Just live with it instead of maiming and killing, duh. You God fearing bunch of ingrates.
    Yes I am a fundie hater but that doesnt mean I condone cut throat slithering tactics of a bunch of deranged ex concentration camp thugs who commit murder and are catapulted into God like stature.

    Love it or leave it!

  3. PeeWeeHurtEm says:

    orry to be your BuzzKill but Arabs didnt lose land in a war, they were unjustly pushed off of it. when instigated to fight back, shit for brains like you claim that it was fairly lost in a war.

    Sorry to burst your bubble but this fact is not true.
    Yes Egypt conceded to the existence of Israel, which in fact did cause it heaps of problems, but for all Arabs to concede to stolen land that was lost in a calculated genocide is not an option to the majority of the Arabs.

    Now

    It’s no big deal really, Israel can keep the land. Because as I said, I support Israel 100%. Thank God they are in existence doing what they are doing because I never could understand why the hell everyone hates them so much and I almost believed the stories of innocent holocaust slaughter, but with what they are doing now in Israel and what Haganah and Howard Stern gang did. It all makes sense how only an ingrate could turn from oppressed to oppressor so damn quick. Hence explaining the whole hate filled history of the mob of celestial ingrates of the tribe of Israel, or at least whats left of there descendants that havent accepted Christ already and been eternally saved. Even accepting Islam would be better that being a fascist squealing whining lying Zionist.

    I had some Jewish Pussy, it was actually quite nice, very clean, but still, reality check here buddy!

    The war was instigated by the criminal gangs, x-Holocaust Hitler camp survivor thugs and were labelled as terrorists the world throughout. Until that is a few stand up Jews dug deep into their pockets and turn popular opinion in their favor. Just like I wish some righteous Christians or Muslims would do to stop this [non Orthodox Jewish plunder]. Jews have been hated, deal with it, dont invent that it is alright to go against your creed and kill innocent people that just happen to be living on land that was your fore fathers that you had never seen before. Yet you tell Palestinians to accept that. So why don’t you all accept that it is wrong and you are hated. Just live with it instead of maiming and killing, duh. You God fearing bunch of ingrates.
    Yes I am a fundie hater but that doesnt mean I condone cut throat slithering tactics of a bunch of deranged ex concentration camp thugs who commit murder and are catapulted into God like stature.

    Love it or leave it!

  4. The logic that israel matzav uses in making his argument is inherently flawed, “the egyptians wronged us, so we have a right to wrong the palestinians”, no….the egyptians wronged you, so your issue is with us (the egyptians) not the palestinians. Following that, while i do sincerely regret the confiscation and forced exodus of most of egypt’s jews, there was a war going on, “egyptian” jews were acting on behalf of israel in events such as the levant affair, and in war security comes first. Since egypt lacked the resources to intern its jewish population as the Americans did with the japanese, the jewish exodus was one of few options. I might also add that of this “egyptian” jewish population, a great portion of prominent egyptian jews weren’t actually egyptian, but came from foriegn families that had settled in egypt making them no different than egypt’s brits and other foriegners.

  5. “Following that, while i do sincerely regret the confiscation and forced exodus of most of egypt’s jews, there was a war going on, “egyptian” jews were acting on behalf of israel in events such as the levant affair, and in war security comes first.”

    Then it stands to reason that whatever happened to Jordanian and Egyptian Arabs was completely justified. I see no reason for you to disagree.

  6. Twosret says:

    I heard the news and was very saddened to see that any Egyptian born no matter what his faith is to be prevented from visiting their place of birth.

    I would honestly worry about their safety and I’m not sure what caused all this but hopefully this won’t happen again.

    Now get the Palestinians out of this news for pete’s sake!!!!!!!

  7. EgyPeter says:

    Fart!

  8. Let me get the flow of logic here. Arabs try and invade a putative state on behalf of their ‘poor brothers’ promising to ‘push the Jews into the sea’. Thanks to the stupidity of the Arabs, the Arab ass gets kicked Big Time! Not content at getting it kicked once, they try again not once, or twice,but several times; not to mention the numerous wars of attrition and the low intensity terrorist warfare. Given this scenario, I would find it hard not to conflate the two issues. Assuming that Rick’s position would find a fair degree of support in the ‘Arab Street’, I find it hard to believe that any of those pathological Jew-haters would seriously think that the “Palestinian Cause” has any merit.

  9. To which jordanian and egyptian arabs are you refferring to?

  10. Zeph,

    Say that tomorrow an influx of Chinese refugees was to start pouring into Israel constantly chanting “A land with no people for a people with no land”.

    And when they had amassed enough numbers, they decide to declare a Chinese national state on 60% of Israel, I would expect that most Israelis would feel threatened and see that as a hostile act. Israelis would also not feel particularly reassured by being referred to as “no people”.

    If Israelis were then to declare war on said Chinese refugees with or without help from outside, very few people would find fault with that decision.

    So suffice it to say, that there’s no point in repeating that the Arabs started the 1948 war for no reason other than that they woke up one day in the morning and decided hey you know what I don’t like Jews let’s go wipe them out. That’s clearly a one-sided version of events and no one in the region outside Israel is ever going to pay any attention to it. Keep it as a good dinnertable story for internal consumption and move on.

    I don’t see the point in rehashing old ground anyway. 1948 was a long time ago.

    The Palestinian cause has merit because Palestinians exist as individuals and as a people. As long as they exist, they have human rights which they’re not going to concede just because it’s convenient for you. If Jews base their claim to Palestine on a 2000 year story, then that’s kind of an indication that Palestinians aren’t going away anytime soon.

    Quoting the actions of Egyptians or Jordanians as a pretext for what you do or do not do to Palestinians achieves very little other than to illustrate the speaker’s inability to tell a Palestinian apart from an Egyptian or a Jordanian.

    There are no Egyptians or Jordanians living under Israeli army rule. And no Egyptian or Jordanian refugees. And no Egyptians or Jordanians blowing themselves up in Tel Aviv. Israel doesn’t have any settlements in Egypt or Jordan. You have a peace agreement with Egypt and Jordan. Those conflicts are over.

    That’s why the current conflict is called the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and not the Israeli-Egyptian conflict or the Israeli-Jordanian conflict.

    I know Golda Meir started out believing the Palestinians didn’t exist but I believe most Israeli politicians have since moved on and adopted positions much less divorced from reality on the ground. So has the rest of the world. The current conflict isn’t really about whether there should be a settlement, it’s about the terms of the settlement in the context of a 2-state solution.

  11. “To which jordanian and egyptian arabs are you refferring to?”

    The ones calling themselves Palestinians nova days.

    Rick, why did you ask? You sound like a person who knows the answer.

    But anyway. Now to more important part. Was their treatment justified if we are to follow your logic regarding Egyptian Jews.

  12. LouLou,

    The Arab states have violated more Palestinian rights than Israel has, during the past 60 years. The squalid conditions in which the Palestinians live in the refugee camps are more a product of state policy than anything else. Given that the ‘Arab brothers’ of Palestinians had more than a fair share in the making of the mess that the Palestinians find themselves in, it is only reasonable that they take their share of the burden in solving the ‘Palestinian question’.

    Your description of the current conflict as an ‘Israeli-Palestinian conflict’ is, to put it mildly, a little obtuse. Out of it’s immediate neighbours, Syria and Lebanon doesn’t even recognize Israel, nor does the majority of the states in the region. While the vast majority of Islamic countries have adopted a policy of diplomatically isolating Israel -all in the name of Palestinians. Given the propensity on the Arab/Islamic side to turn this into a no-holds-barred religious conflict, I dare say that to classify this as a nationalistic conflict would be immature.

  13. LouLou,

    Your Chinese example is not so far off actually.

    It is happening even as we speak. The only difference is the location. It is Russian Far East and South-Western Siberia. BTW, Chinese always believed (and even had armed conflicts with former SU) that certain parts of Siberia along Amur river belong to them. Who knows, they might even succeed one day.

  14. Leo,
    I do believe that we’re looking at two different versions of history, and ergo i couldn’t extend my logic to your example. While you are of the opinion that there are no palestinians (a very, very controvertial view) I actually believe that there have always been palestinians, or at least, a group of arabs who inhabited palestine prior to the establishment of the state of israel (definitely not egyptians)

  15. Rick,

    I do not believe we are at disagreement regarding geography of the matter.

    That is “I actually believe that there have always been palestinians, or at least, a group of arabs who inhabited palestine prior to the establishment of the state of israel” my sentiment as well.

    However, there was never a group of those very people who were willing to identify themselves as separate political entity from Jordan or Egypt. Never a group asserting Palestinian (or whatever else name) statehood or even nationalism. Not until 1967+.

    With that said I am simply do not care. These people have right to call selves whoever they want as far as I am concerned. And I am calling cat a cat.

    Now, you keep avoiding my question still. Do you really want me to repeat it again or I’ll be able to get an answer eventually?

    You cannot blame me for not answering yours, can you?

  16. WongTweeAgain

    What the hell are you talking about. Just gibberish.

  17. Patrick says:

    The Egyptian government is disallowing these Jews out of concern for their security because of the dumb talk show host. That’s a legitimate concern and a good reason for cancelling a trip that should be private and not publicized. Do the Egypt-haters in this blog prefer if the Egyptian government allow the Jews in? And if something happened to them, who would you blame? The egyptian government of course, and you would decry why they allowed the jews to visit when there were malicious rumors being spread about their intentions.

  18. Mohamed says:

    Patrick,
    For once I’ll disagree with you, and setting aside and completely disregarding the usual sick and mental opportunistic bastards (who are by some twisted logic are again injecting the Palestinian issue into an unrelated matter) on this blog that you’ve mentioned, those jews are as Egyptian as any other egyptian, and their security shouldn’t be even a concern or an issue. Putting myself in their place made me super pissed, imagining that most of them are in their eighties and just want to make one last visit to the places where they’ve spent their youth and probably the best days of their lives and experience some nostalgia, then out of the blue our own local Billy O’reilly impersonating demagogue, that s.o.b Amr Adeeb, completely turns this visit as a grandstanding opportunity for himself. And so what if they asked for their confiscated properties, that’s their absolute right.
    Some one should really muster some courage and please give Amr Adeeb a huge kick in the nuts.

  19. “However, there was never a group of those very people who were willing to identify themselves as separate political entity from Jordan or Egypt. Never a group asserting Palestinian (or whatever else name) statehood or even nationalism. Not until 1967+.”

    And that signifies what exactly? Prior to the 1950′s, there was zero nationalism in the whole former Ottoman empire. That’s includes all 22 Arab states in addition to significant parts of Asia and Africa and even Europe. People had lived under a theocracy which was not based on the European 19th century nation for 1500 years.

    Maybe a Palestinian wouldn’t have referred to himself as a Palestinian before. He would have called himself a Maqdisi or Khalili or whatever his town might have been called. Prior to the 1900′s, a Saudi would have referred to himself as a Meccan or Medinan or Najdi or Taifi because there was no Saudi nation. Does this change the fact that the tribes of Saudi Arabia have lived there – and owned homes and other property – since times immemorial? So because the system here was different from the nation-states you had in Europe, that makes it ok to dispossess all of us?

    Do you realize how inflammatory it is to argue in this region in particular that not having been living in a recognized ethnic-nationalist, European-style nation before the 1950′s means you have no right to your ancestral homeland or your home or your land or your furniture or your family or your community? Do you realize that by extension that argument has implications for ALL OF US(and I’m from North Africa) and not just for the Palestinians? And are you aware that within the Arab world, those proponents of the position that Zionists have designs from ‘the Nile to the Euphrates’ and that unless Arabs destroy Israel, we can all look forward to a fate similar to that of the Palestinians – do you realize that these people use the type of argument you’re making here to cement their position? Do you know how many songs and TV shows are out there about Israeli settlers in Baghdad and Bahrain and millions upon millions of Iraqi and Bahraini refugees?

    Back home where I come from, when Israeli tourists first started to arrive back in the 80′s, people were seriously scared of them. No one believed they’d actually ever leave! They were ranting in the mosques every Friday about the Israelis coming to evict us all and raze our homes to build settlements. On the news every night, they showed clips of ‘Israeli intellectuals’ talking exactly like you!

    Personally, I don’t care if I live in an ethno-nationalist state. I don’t care about having a flag or a national anthem or a national football team. Symbols like that mean nothing to me. What I do care about is my family home, my hometown and my extended family/tribe. I care about the place where my family has lived for generations under succcessive occupiers who came and left WHILE WE STAYED. I care about the fact that virtually everyone for miles and miles around us is related to me somehow. I care about the practice we have of running into strangers from your part of the country and sitting down and digging through our family trees to find some sort of relationship.

    And this is how 99% of the peoples who live in what used to be the Ottoman Empire – including Palestinians – see it. Allegiances in this part of the world may not be to nations – they maybe to tribes and religious sects and extended family structures but it would be foolish to underestimate the attachment to the history and the land just because of that.

    You know, I agree with SM that Arabs blame Israel for lots of things Israel has nothing to do with. And I agree that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict shouldn’t be getting the attention it does because there are much worse problems in the region and it is infuriating that they’re all ignored in favor of this one dispute over real estate.

    That however, does not mean Israel is blameless by any means. I don’t know how Israelis ever expect to become a normal integrated part of the region when they really know absolutely nothing about the culture or the history or what resonates with ordinary people all over the region. Sometimes it seems to me that Israelis have this inordinate talents for saying things that are guaranteed to turn everyone – even the most de-politicized apathetic people – against Israel for no reason or gain whatsoever.

    I realize that the Arab/Islamic world needs to change significanly if there is to be co-existence but isn’t it arrogant – not to mention unrealistic- to expect that the majority will change 100% to accomodate the minority without the minority making the slightest attempt to see any other pov than it’s own?

  20. Roman Kalik says:

    And that signifies what exactly? Prior to the 1950’s, there was zero nationalism in the whole former Ottoman empire.

    That’s fairly inaccurate. The concept of a Greater Syria has existed before 1950 – heck, many Palestinians ascribed to this idea at one point, the height of the concept being in the Twenties and Thirties. As for the Saudis, the Saudi kingdom existed before the Ottomans conquered it, so many Penisula clans already placed their allegiance to the Al-Saud royal family over a century before – and this was a major reason for these clans’ active rebellion against the Ottoman Empire. These clans were essentially interested in rebuilding their own independent sovereign nation.

    I’m sure we’ll find even more complex issues underlying the post-Ottoman era if we examined them in greater detail. I personally find the whole “Ottomans fell, then after several decades Arab Nationalism rose in the post-colonialist reality” theme accepted by many European historians to be rather… bland. The focus on post-colonialism and imperial rule pretty much ignores anything underlying it.

    Now, back to out neck of the woods. The Jews in Palestine offered the Palestinian Arabs to be equal citizens in the state of Israel. They’ve said it time and time and time again, and rarely understood why the city-dwelling Arabs weren’t interested. The reason was simply, unfortunately – the city dwellers were richer, better off than the villagers (who lived pretty well with their neighbors in the Jewish communal farming villages), and had more time to dwell on just such concepts as Arab Nationalism, Islamic Supremacy, and Outsiders Who Aren’t Like Us who should really get the hell out of here.

    The UN, in its early form, thought it understood the underlying issues as well – there were two distinct groups, so let each build a country in its image within the borders of the British Mandate of Palestine, with each having a large minority of the other group and assuring them equal rights and representation. That didn’t work out, either, because while the Jews had a clear and thought-out national concept, the Arabs of Palestine didn’t. They had dozens of ideas, along with a large population in the villages that couldn’t care less about them. The only thing they *could* agree on is about the outsiders.

    So yes, the early Jewish Zionists couldn’t understand the Palestinians – they didn’t have a distinct national identity as far as they could see, so they couldn’t understand why they couldn’t agree to them (Jews) re-founding the state of Israel and the Arabs of Palestine living in it as an ethnic/religious minority of equal rights. They only started understanding them after they got something resembling their own collective identity – until then, it was a matter of trying to satisfy tens of thousands of families, clans, hamoulas… and over them you had the emerging Nationalists and some Muslim imams becoming drunk with the power they found in their hands in the post-Ottoman days.

    Zionist Jews and Palestinian Arabs trying to reach some kind of agreement was doomed to failure simply because you couldn’t solve the issues of the time without either waiting several decades (impossible) or forcing assimilation into a single whole (the path most of the rising countries nearby took as they gained independence).

    And so we reach today, with people throughout most of the region viewing us as outsiders to this day, thus joining most of Europe and half of Asia who also saw us as outsiders – which didn’t change much to this day.

    The irony of the issue is that in Russia they told us filthy Jews to “go back to Palestine”, and in Palestine they called us Russians… And Germans… And French… and told us we should go back there.

    Perhaps we Jews of Israel didn’t do enough to understand the region we live in, but I can say with complete certainty that the exact opposite is also true, and with a much greater effect overall. The Arabs of the Middle-East didn’t bother with trying to understand us – it was just easier to see us as some kind of residual remnant of the post-Ottoman, European colonial powers – and leave it at that.

  21. LouLou: “And that signifies what exactly?”

    Just a fact, LouLou, just a fact.

    Like I said before, it does not matter to me how those Jordanian and Egyptian Arabs want to call themselves. I can call them Palestinians if that is their preferred name.

    LouLou: “Does this change the fact that the tribes of Saudi Arabia have lived there – and owned homes and other property – since times immemorial?”

    No LouLou, it does not. However my argument with Rick is not about that even though he is trying to make it so.

    The argument is about reciprocity:

    Rick: “Following that, while i do sincerely regret the confiscation and forced exodus of most of egypt’s jews, there was a war going on, “egyptian” jews were acting on behalf of israel in events such as the levant affair, and in war security comes first.”

    Leo: “Then it stands to reason that whatever happened to Jordanian and Egyptian Arabs was completely justified. I see no reason for you to disagree.”

    BTW, Rick is yet to answer.

  22. Patrick @ 17,

    Do not believe it. This is BS reason.

    Egyptian government knows how to protect you if necessary.

    This is political reason and nothing else.

  23. “Back home where I come from, when Israeli tourists first started to arrive back in the 80’s, people were seriously scared of them. No one believed they’d actually ever leave! They were ranting in the mosques every Friday about the Israelis coming to evict us all and raze our homes to build settlements. On the news every night, they showed clips of ‘Israeli intellectuals’ talking exactly like you!”

    So, and what Israelis got to do with your fears? Did they create them or it was your local mullah? And of cause now you do understand how things work. So I hope.

  24. Leo,
    You’re comparing apples and oranges, the “egyptian” jews were a demographic that identified as egypitan for hundereds of years prior to the creation of israel, and as such, were a segment of egyptian society, some of whom betrayed egypt, hence causing unfortunate collective retribution. Palestinians on the other hand were never “israeli” of their own volition and as such, weren’t ever betraying israel, but fighting for their fundamental right for land and soveriegnty which the state of israel infringed upon. Ergo, my argument that the egyptians had to deport their citizens for security doesn’t work in the Israeli case, as the palestinians were never “israeli” citizens in the first place, but rather an enitrely different soveriegn people which israel displaced.

  25. LouLou, you commented:

    snip

    That however, does not mean Israel is blameless by any means. I don’t know how Israelis ever expect to become a normal integrated part of the region when they really know absolutely nothing about the culture or the history or what resonates with ordinary people all over the region. Sometimes it seems to me that Israelis have this inordinate talents for saying things that are guaranteed to turn everyone – even the most de-politicized apathetic people – against Israel for no reason or gain whatsoever.

    I realize that the Arab/Islamic world needs to change significanly if there is to be co-existence but isn’t it arrogant – not to mention unrealistic- to expect that the majority will change 100% to accomodate the minority without the minority making the slightest attempt to see any other pov than it’s own?

    snip

    The sad thing is, many Jewish Israelis and also, Jews in the Diaspora DO understand and respect a great deal about Arab culture because it’s part of our own. The woman who was leading the trip to Egypt, a Jew from Egypt, is obviously part of that world, is a fluent Arab speaker and was trying to build a bridge between the two cultures – Israeli culture itself is a blend, with the Sephardic and Mizrachi (Spanish and oriental Jews) being a very important part of it. This is clearly reflected in many aspects of Israeli culture, including dance and music, but of course also poetry, art and song.

    Stopping attempts like this trip are so sad because they prevent us from building bridges. We do have so much in common.

    I also agree there are people who have zero understanding of Arab culture and that’s a shame, but in fact that’s also true vis a vis understanding of Israeli culture.

    Hopefully we can find ways to surmount this:)

  26. Patrick says:

    Mohamed, I agree. I think the jews have an absolute perogative to see their homeland before they die and show their children their memories in Egypt, but the fact is this is not the government’s fault but the fault of Amr Adeeb.

  27. “So, and what Israelis got to do with your fears? Did they create them or it was your local mullah? And of cause now you do understand how things work. So I hope.”

    The point was that a lot of the rhetoric that Israel and it’s supporters propagate is used against you as ammunition by those who choose to feed the whole anti-Israel frenzy in the ME. It’s the height of self-defeat.

    As an Arab, when you tell me that if you’re not a nationalist then your home is not your home, then to me, it’s not about Palestinians anymore. Regardless of my opinion of Palestinians, your premise is threatening to me personally. In my response, I’m defending my own right to be in my own homeland.

    Or to call Palestinians Egyptians and Jordanians, thereby taking it upon yourself to tell not only Palestinians but also Egyptians and Jordanians, that they all have no right to define their own identity because you know better and you’re going to do it for them. Which to most Arabs, would only be reminiscent of Western colonialism and Sykes-Picot and that Whitehall bureaucrat with a pencil and a map who decided to create unstable artificial national entites as he saw fit, tearing apart ancient cultures and communities with consequences that we’re all still living with today.

    If you don’t like being associated with European colonialists, then stop talking like them! Just like you interpret what you hear based on your own historical experiences and insecurities, well others have historical experiences and insecurities too!

    Same when you say that Arabs are genocidal maniacs out to exterminate Jews for no reason. I mean, what kind of response would you expect from an Arab to that? Other than to email your post to all my Arab friends and tell them see what they’re saying about us?

    To me, it sometimes seems like a lot of rhetoric coming from Israel and it’s supporters isn’t talking to Arabs or Kurds or Iranians at all. It’s talking about us to a third party. Possibly the European/Western audience that Israelis are still culturally tied to.

    Incidentally, I am not afraid of you anymore. I used to be. I used to believe the local mullahs. I don’t anymore and I have to say no thanks to most of what one hears from Zionists and their supporters. I didn’t have much help from you guys in making this journey.

    Now when I hear a prominent Israeli talking like that on Al-Jazeera or Al-Arabiya, I’m thinking idiot! why is he saying that here? Why is he being so inflammatory? What is he hoping to achieve? Convince Palestinians that they’re not Palestinians or that they don’t exist? Convince all Arabs and Muslims that their motives in sympathizing with the Palestinians are evil and twisted and have no merit? I mean are these realistic achievable targets for any discourse? To convince your opponent that he’s evil incarnate and that he has no rights?

    I don’t want to hear about that. I want to hear about why and how there should be a two-state solution (viable states). I want to here that co-existence and economic cooperation would improve the quality of everyone’s life so much more than conflict. I want to hear that those refugees who cannot be allowed to return or may not wish to return and who have valid claims to land and property will be compensated in a manner that will make them an economic asset and not a burdern to any state willing to integrate them. I want to hear that they will have access to visit the relatives and spiritual places they left behind.

    And yes, instead of Jews telling me what my motives are and what my identity should be, I want you to ask ME to explain myself and actually listen. And I want you to explain YOUR motives and your experience and why they’re not threatening to me or to anyone else. Speak for yourself, not for me. I want to hear about your culture and what are the positive things you think you can contribute to this region that YOU chose to make your home in.

    Roman,

    Thanks for your last post. I don’t necessarily agree with everything in it but it is much more thoughtful and objective than almost anything else I read here.

    One day perhaps, when this conflict is over and feelings on both sides aren’t so high, it might be worthwhile ot undertake the academic exercise of reconciling various contradictory narratives of the past in the manner you have tried to achieve.

    Right now though, I feel it would be much more constructive to focus on where we should go from here, as in May 2008.

    Sophia,

    I do believe we have a lot in common actually. And even if we didn’t, the fact is you’re here, we’re here. Neither one of us is going anywhere without unbearable costs being incurred by all concerned. So even if the common ground wasn’t there to start with, it would be in everyone’s interest to invent it.

  28. Sophia,

    Incidentally, on the subject of Egyptian Jews, I believe that naturally, they should be allowed to return and be compensated for any loss incurred.

    My hometown is Casablanca in Morrocco btw. The story there is a a little different. We have a tradition of good relations between Jews and Muslims – much to the chagrin of Arab nationalism in the 50′s and Saudi-petro-dollar-driven Islamic fundamentalism. One of the few good things about our regime is that they try to fight these tendencies as much as they can.

    The local Jewish community did suffer a lot in the 50′s and many immigrated to Europe, the US or Israel. But there have been attempts to redress that and I believe there’s a sort of revival going on now – although there is still some work to do.

    Since the late 70′s though, Morrocan Jews have been coming back regularly for holidays to visit family and friends. None of the ones my family knows were ever really dispossessed. They just leased out their homes and businesses and left because of security concerns and the anti-semitism generated by the Arab-Israeli wars. But I have heard reports of confiscations etc…and where those have occurred I believe they should be reversed of course. Private property is private property. I am very capitalist that way.:)

    They weren’t the ones I mentioned before. Israeli Jews of Morrocan origin are accepted in Casa because everyone knows them. It was when other Israelis first started showing up that there were some initial concerns. I was little back then but I remember hearing some very frightening things.

    However, since none of these tourists have made any attempts to drive us out and take over, these rumors appear to have died out now.

  29. The visit was cancelled because of safety reasons FOR THE ISRAELIS themselves! Not because the goverment does not want them here, stop starting rumors, and falling into all this BS talk!

    For your info you can ask many many Egyptians and they will tell you that they miss the Egyptian Jews and it was a mistake to kick them out based on a VERY FEW bad apples “Lavon Affair”.

    Egyptians will tell you its SAHAYNA “Zionists” that they hate…not Jews themselves..but people have gotten so used to saying JEWS instead of Zionist when talking or Israeli..but if you ask them they will explain!

  30. Pener B Hard says:

    Wong Tee, you know there are people from the USA reading this web site and it reminds us of you arab shits passing out sweets after 9 11 and the comments people in Cairo were making about how “I hope lots of Jews died” and talking about the magnificent 19 and such. If you are in the USA I hope you get deported back to your 3rd world shithole and if you are not in the USA I pray that you are never admitted. You also would stink up any European country you and the other dung beetles of your breed.