Conjuring up the secterian demon

A coptic jewlery shop owner was gunned down, him and 3 others in his shop in Zeitoun, by 2 gunmen wearing sunglasses and wigs. The incident is problematic because the gunmen didn't attempt to steal anything, and the whole thing has the air of gangland assassination.

 Two men in wigs and
sunglasses shot dead four Coptic Christians jewellery shop workers in
the Egyptian capital on Wednesday in an apparent gangland-style
killing, a security official and witnesses said.

The shooting happened at
around 12:30 pm (0930 GMT) in the mixed Christian-Muslim district of
Zeitoun in northeast Cairo, the official said, adding that the
attackers escaped without stealing anything from the shop.

Eyewitnesses said that the
men arrived at the shop on a motorbike, walked in and shot dead the
shop's owner and three employees before driving away, in a rare act of
brazen bloodshed in the capital.

"Preliminary investigations
show that the motivation behind the attack could have been revenge,"
the official said, adding that the owner had frequent disputes with
local residents.

The official had initially said the killings were the result of a drive-by shooting.

Police, who swiftly cordoned off the area, found 15 revolver shell casings at the scene, the official said.

Now, I received over 5 calls from different coptic friends all frantic and all talk about how they believe this was done by muslims and that we are on the doorsteps of a fantastic case of sectarian strife. While their ranting has the air of conspiracies and panic to them ( no one knows the identity of the shooter and whether this is related to religion to begin with), this kind of talk is a harbinger in itself. A panicked coptic population that believes that muslims are out to kill them- with their general distrust of the egyptian authorities ability to protect them- could end up taking matters into their own hand, which could elad to catastrophic results. The other problem lies in the location: Zaitoun is a neighborhood with lots of christians, and it has 4 big churches there. But it also has the "AlAziz bellah" street, which is a hub for "Ansar Al Sunnah" a wahabi salafist islamist group in Egypt. That street houses tons of stores that sell nothing but inflammatory islamist speeches on tape (usually not very copt friendly) and it houses the "AlAziz Bellah" mosque, which, let's say, is an Ansar Al Sunnnah dominated mosque. There are usually tensions there to begin with between the christians and the muslims because of them, so if anyone commits any rash action, this whole area could explode in full muslims-chiristian conflict. It's still early for such talk, but one thing is true: whomever committed this crime, no matter what their reason might be, they are conjuring up the secterian demon, and that is never good.

Comments

  1. Sorry to hear about that :( People often seem to attribute the worse motives to actions against their own people. Misconceptions galore.

  2. EgyPeter says:

    Would ANYONE care to bet me on the odds of Justice being served…

    These criminals will NOT be apprehended. And if they are, they will be ruled clinically insane – as only “insane” people would do something like this, right? Just like that “insane” guy on Good Friday a few years back.

    I can’t help but wonder what the “dispute” was…did they refuse to convert, have women w/o veils in the store, maybe their hair was too short or they were secretly proselytizing or even selling alcohol…who knows, but I’m sure it was the Copts fault whatever it was…

    For many Egyptians, it’s a complete affront to Islam to share the same neighborhood with Kafir non-Muslims.

    Did Egyptians forget El Kosheh?????

  3. Dude, “the identity of the shooters is still unknown”…so quit jumpin’ to conclusions 3ashan heya mesh na2sa aslan!!

    IMHO I think that the high media coverage given to this story is just to show the public how we actually still needed the Emergency Law to be extended (Agenda Setting, anyone?!!) but the accident itself has nothing to do with religion…just a regular homicide.

  4. Mohamed says:

    EgyPeter, I will take you on that bet. Stop your generalizing because it wont be so funny when they culprits are caught and it turns out one was Muslim and the other one Copt.

    Sure there is an imbalance regarding Copts & Muslims but your D-day-scenario-like fears do nothing but spread panic in an already unsafe situation. Quite trying to act like Copts are victimized all the time.

    Just as they tell the Pali’s to not resist, what if they told the copts to not resist because they are over powered?

    Would that be fair, No!

    Admit it, you are 80% Islamophobicized. 40% do to common opinion & 40% because you are Copt living in America where 99% of Copts scream racial sectarian mayhem.

  5. As a muslim egyptian-american, i extend my deepest condolences to the families of the shop owners, and pray that the culprits muslim OR copt, are caught and persecuted to the full extent of the law. In these politically turbulent times, we should not see ourselves as muslims or christians, but as Egyptians first and foremost, and w/e religion we may happen to be second.

  6. shop workers*

  7. shop workers* (at post # 5)

    Also, just out of curiosity, what is the “coptic” view of Nasser as opposed to sadat?

  8. EgyPeter says:

    Mohamed #4 – Thank you for give me the SAME TYPICAL response I hear every fucking time!!!!

    You couldn’t think of something more original???

    And are you pulling shit out of the air? Where was their mention in the story that one of the culprits may be a Copt. You’re just hoping! Guys on bike shot down the owners of a CHRISTIAN jewelry store WITHOUT robbing it. OK, no problem, let’s wait and see!

    “Quit trying to act like the Copts are victimized all the time.” LOL. No, you’re right. Clearly the victims here are the murdering punks with guns. Again typical.

    “Just as they tell the Pali’s to not resist, what if they told the copts to not resist because they are over powered?”

    Resist?!! What fucking Coptic resistance do you see on the streets you dumbass?!!!

    “Admit it, you are 80% Islamophobicized. 40% do to common opinion & 40% because you are Copt living in America where 99% of Copts scream racial sectarian mayhem.”

    CLASSIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Egypt’s sectarian bullshit IS ALL DUE TO COPTS LIVING IN AMERICA!!!!!!!!!!

    No one forget that!!!! WE are the problem!

    Idiot

  9. EgyPeter says:

    As a proud member of Coptic Assembly of America, you better believe it, every time I hear of something like this I will scream “BLOODY MURDER”

    http://www.copticassembly.org/main.php

  10. EgyPeter don’t take Mohamed too seriously, after all he’s voting for Nader!! Kind of put’s things in perspective, doesn’t it!! :)

  11. EgyPeter,

    While i do not nessecarilly fully agree with mohamed’s response, I do think he has a point in saying that when a tragedy such as this strikes egypt, we should not point fingers at each other, but rather we should unite as Egyptians (regardless of faith) to bring justice to the families of the shop workers and to ensure that future murderers and thugs (regardless of religion) are brought to their knees.

  12. EgyPeter,
    While i do not nessecarilly fully agree with mohamed’s response, I do think he has a point in saying that when a tragedy such as this strikes egypt, we should not point fingers at each other, but rather we should unite as Egyptians (regardless of faith) to bring justice to the families of the shop workers and to ensure that future murderers and thugs (regardless of religion) are brought to their knees.

  13. Shahira says:

    This incident has nothing to do with religion and it’s not just an opinion . Well a father of a very good Coptic friend of mine used to be a partner in this specific shop and was in the area when the accident took place; he said it was confirmed during the investigation 15 kilos of gold were stolen, and wonders why that wasn’t mentioned in all newspapers the other day!

  14. Mohamed says:

    Mohamed @4,
    Altough you’re another Mohamed, but I agree with a lot of what you’re saying except your statement about the 99% of copts living in America, I don’t think that’s quiet true.
    And about Egypeter, just ignore him, he’s been so brainwashed by someone (probably his parents) into becoming some kind of a sick, hateful and a bitter bigoted creature, believe me, it’s really sucks being him, so just leave the poor thing alone.

  15. EgyPeter says:

    You see we are talking about EGYPT here, not some normal civilized society…

    This incident should be assumed to be sectarian in nature UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE!

    #12 Mohamed – You’re damn right my parents taught me – but you got it backwards dumbshit, they taught me NOT to be “sick, hateful, bitter and bigoted.”

    The only thing I’m intolerant of is intolerant fucks like yourself…and, of course, those who kill non-Muslims, for being, well…non-Muslim.

    But then again, I’m a Copt living outside of Egypt so don’t listen to me…

  16. EgyPeter,
    While i do not nessecarilly fully agree with mohamed’s (first mohammed) response, I do think he has a point in saying that when a tragedy such as this strikes egypt, we should not point fingers at each other, but rather we should unite as Egyptians (regardless of faith) to bring justice to the families of the shop workers and to ensure that future murderers and thugs (regardless of religion) are brought to their knees.

  17. I got my daily dose of offensive ping pong. Nader? hahaha life is cruel

  18. Twosret says:

    May God be with the families of the victims of this crime.

    Egypeter,

    What worries me very much about Copts in America who join organizations and think they fight for their rights are causing more problems, suffering, and division in Egypt.

    Let me tell you what El-Anba Youssef (Arch Bishop in the US) said one day in a dinner I attended. There were a group of Coptic-American pretty much like you born in America and their main concern is the Copts in Egypt.

    As far as I remember he said that those organizations and angry people cause more harm to Copts in Egypt as they fuel their fear and convience them that they are always victims and they will be killed one day by a muslim if they don’t run away. The fear turns into hate and lack of tolerance and even the Pope Shenouda keeps urging the American Copts to calm down.

    You have never lived in Egypt and all your stories are second hand stories and in addition I have been to many Coptic American Churchs were priests behave exactly the same like Jihadis by planting fear and hate in their congregation.

    I’m not denying there are problems in Egypt between Muslims and Christians but the way your organization and Copts in America is handling this is subjecting the Copts in Egypt to more danger while you are safe here in the United States and have nothing to lose.

    You have to also admit that there is hate on both sides not Just the muslim side. I wish you really find a better positive way to support Copts in Egypt.

    Here is how Adel Emam and the international actor Omar Sherief did to bring people together in Egypt Muslims and Christians. Excellent idea! can’t wait to see the movie.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoMcRifEleE&feature=related

  19. EgyPeter says:

    Yeah, well, with all due respect, twosret, I TOTALLY disagree with just about everything you wrote.

    Me not ever living in Egypt doesn’t mean shit, sorry. I visit often enough, read enough and hear enough to know what the hell is going on in Egypt. Some may even find my concern for Egypt admirable, having never lived there.

    And find me a priest in the Coptic Orthodox faith (and you mention in America) that “behaves exactly like a jihadi” like you claim. Bullshit, lol! Are there Coptic priests calling for intifada in Egypt, twosret?? Is there some Coptic Reverend Wright Church that exists where you live? I have never heard anything so ridiculous and I’ve been to countless different churches in my life! As a matter of fact, why don’t you give me the name of the church and/or the priest that you are referring to as I’m sure I know people that attend, maybe I can verify!!

    And I’m glad you can admit that there “are problems.” Most can’t even do that. Now I’m in the business of getting people to concede to that fact – that there are, indeed, very serious problems. Cuz until we admit that there there isn’t a chance in hell that we’ll solve a damn thing. You see?

    And btw, I’m not concerned what some clergy may or may not say regarding the social status/politics of Christians. While I respect and admire members of the clergy and will abide by church canon , I don’t take my political marching orders from them….unlike some.

    Great movie. I hope it changes hearts and minds.

  20. Mohamed says:

    God bless you and your family ya Twosret

  21. Why is nobody paying attention to what shahira said?

  22. Nobody’s paying attention to shahira because it’s much more fun to ignore the rational facts and get down to a nice bit of fear-mongering and conspiracy theorising.

    Human nature. It’s great, isn’t it?

  23. Any religion can and usually does breed lunatics, so while I can’t name a specific Coptic preacher who spews hate and bile towards Muslims, it’s highly unlikely that none exist.

    I have no means to determine whether or not this was a sectarian crime, but neither do any of you guys at this moment and to assume that it is one with practically no evidence – whether you want to consider Shahira’s comment or not – and to then launch a pathetic exercise in fear-mongering is not helping. Yeah, I’m looking at you, Egypeter.

    I also find it very ironic that you start making wild assumptions, stuff you could not have objectively deducted from the article and then accuse Mohamed of also making assumptions hardly more far-fetched than yours.

    A number of people get killed in Egypt every year. The motives behind these murders vary and can include among other things disputes over money, honour killings, theft and of course religion, noone’s denying that here; religious animosity does cause problems in this country. BUT let’s not forget that Copts are not above being involved in the other shit that can lead to homicide.

  24. People, just read what Shahira #13 & Slavin #3 posted & you’ll get the whole picture!

  25. “People, just read what Shahira #13 & Slavin #3 posted & you’ll get the whole picture!”

    ???????? 2 posts and you’ll get the WHOLE picture?????? LOL :)

    http://www.petitiononline.com/coptic/petition.html

    http://www.standwithus.com/news_post.asp?NPI=221

    http://202.6.52.14/articles/11120.htm

    http://www.threaddump.org/tblog/archives/2006/04/in_egypt_muslim.html

    http://nz.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080528124917AAvAL7U

    http://www.aina.org/news/20050202105121.htm

    http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/ibrahim062107.html

    http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=41805

    http://ahmedsalib.wordpress.com/2006/10/09/secretary-rice-in-egypt-copts-deliver-a-letter-of-demands/

    http://www.copts4freedom.com/women.htm

    http://saraghorab.wordpress.com/2006/08/13/the-price-of-refusing-islam/

    http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,953135-2,00.html

    There’s no lack of documentation proving persecution of Copts, Judaism, Baha’i, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism and other religions in Muslim majority countries. The fact that some deny that here seems odd. Wouldn’t it be better if all the energy here was spent trying to make sure there was no religious violence anywhere in the world regardless of origination or sect? Knee jerk denial won’t change anything.

  26. “People, just read what Shahira #13 & Slavin #3 posted & you’ll get the whole picture!”

    ???????? 2 posts and you’ll get the WHOLE picture?????? LOL :)

    http://www.petitiononline.com/coptic/petition.html

    http://www.standwithus.com/news_post.asp?NPI=221

    http://202.6.52.14/articles/11120.htm

    http://www.threaddump.org/tblog/archives/2006/04/in_egypt_muslim.html

    http://nz.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080528124917AAvAL7U

    http://www.aina.org/news/20050202105121.htm

    http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/ibrahim062107.html

    http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=41805

    http://www.copts4freedom.com/women.htm

    http://saraghorab.wordpress.com/2006/08/13/the-price-of-refusing-islam/

    http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,953135-2,00.html

    There’s no lack of documentation proving persecution of Copts, Judaism, Baha’i, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism and other religions in Muslim majority countries. The fact that some deny that here seems odd. Wouldn’t it be better if all the energy here was spent trying to make sure there was no religious violence anywhere in the world regardless of origination or sect? Knee jerk denial won’t change anything.

  27. EgyPeter says:

    I hope Shahira is right!! I honestly hope that these these thugs committed the murder for money.

    But when all the news outlets I’ve read consistently say the same thing, that there was nothing stolen from the jewelry store…then that leads me to believe that it was sectarian in nature.

    Remember, this is Egypt. Like I said before, I will assume it IS sectarian until proven otherwise…

  28. EgyPeter says:

    More good news from Egypt…

    http://www.metimes.com/International/2008/05/30/female_copts_spark_muslim_student_furor/4905/

    The water is starting to rapidly boil over the pot….but then again, maybe I’m just “fear-mongering” as some people on this blog like to claim.

    “Human Rights” organizations like the EIPR (Hossam Baghat) are a complete and utter joke!! They’re no less culpable, for the mess that is Egypt. than the Egyptian government itself. The only thing most “human rights” organizations in Egypt are concerned with is the detention of Ikhwan members and their rights! Huh?

  29. This might seem odd but I agree with Egypeter on this.. as it’s a perfectly to look up first for the usual suspects… And the usual suspects here are Islamic Fundmentalists… if you’ve seen the area Sandmonkey wrote about for real… it look like a part of a Taliban’s Kabul ! Even if something was stolen from the store that doesn’t mean its not secterian… remember people Islamic Jihadis had a history of robbing Christian Jewlery stores back in the 80′s and early 90′s for financing their groups! Although the style of the crime might not match… I mean women wigs and designer sunglasses they could be more of a fundmentalist drag queens rather than Islamists… but still these people might evolve in their criminal ways! We will see what investigations will lead!
    Face it people, secterian tension is increasing we might not feel it, especially those of us who are some how educated, open-minded etc. but in other sectors of society its very be noticeable… so it’s a crime of its own if we turn our heads and live in denial. And Egypeter comments or Sandmonkey’s post are pointing this out in their own way… it’s NOT pouring oil on fire and it’s definitely NOT the reason behind the increasing tension !

  30. EgyPeter says:

    Look back to when our parents and grandparents were growing up in Egypt and how different relationships were b/w Christians and Muslims back then compared to now! It’s sad.

    Thanks MaGdee :)

  31. “Here is how Adel Emam and the international actor Omar Sherief did to bring people together in Egypt Muslims and Christians. Excellent idea! can’t wait to see the movie.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoMcRifEleE&feature=related

    Twosret,

    Hassan and Morcos, its my most anticipated movie after the new Indy movie disappointment, although I personally think Adel Imam is overrated and his last series of movies with the exception of Omaret Yacoubian were rubbish… but I still can’t wait for this movie… ppl say Omar Sharif put up the best performance of his career! Almost 50 years ago there was a classic Egyptian comedy movie called “Hassan, Morcos and Cohen”… today we dropped Cohen… let’s just hope that 50 years from now we don’t make a movie simply called “Hassan”

  32. EgyPeter says:

    Hey, it’s a start! Like I said, I hope this will begin to change the hearts and minds of Egyptians…

    Well said MaGdee!! Hope you have a wonderful weekend.

    Salaam.

  33. Mike Nargizian says:

    RULES IN ISLAM DOMINATED COUNTRY -

    Muslim kills a Christian (there’s no Jews left) -
    RESULT -
    Cause for concern this is not good and could cause potential secterian strife.

    Christian fights back against Muslim in retaliatory manner or just “acts up”..
    RESULT -
    Streets erupt with angry Sunni Muslims screaming about how they are the downtrodden picked upon of the world due to the Crusader Christian and Zionists for whatever reason they can make up today. Several Christians are murdered, bloodied and a nun is stabbed to death…
    Oh wait that was only bcs they thought someone watched a fucking play about a Muslim converting to Christianity… oh my bad

    But remember Islam loves its Christian and Jewish “protected” minorities… there was never any racism in the Islamic Ottoman Ummah towards Jews and certainly not towards Christians… LOL..
    Mike

  34. Mike Nargizian says:

    twosret -
    I’m not denying there are problems in Egypt between Muslims and Christians but the way your organization and Copts in America is handling this is subjecting the Copts in Egypt to more danger while you are safe here in the United States and have nothing to lose.

    Question -
    Has there ever been any hoards of Christians rampaging in the streets bloodying and murdering Muslims?
    So the only problem is when the Muslim majority gets “riled up” about like for instance a stupid fing play… and decides to rampage a bit….

    The only way the American Coopts make it worse is by speaking up bcs the Muslims in Egypt don’t like this… so if they keep quiet things will be better or “peace/submission”…
    A LITTLE PUN INTENDED

    WHATS FUNNY IS THE MUSLIM MINORITY IN THE US HAVE NOOOOO PROBLEMS DOING EXACTLY WHAT YOU SAID THE AMERICAN COOPTS ARE DOING… HYPERVENTILATING OVERREACTING AND MAKING SHIT UP ABOUT so called Islamophobia in the US? (CAIR AMS)

    How does that hypocrisy work exactly?

    Mike

  35. Mohamed says:

    This is mohamed No. 1 btw.

    Here you go you wish-wash foul mouthed EgyPeter wannabe sectarian rebel. Try going to http://www.new-hate-hobbies.com already…and finding a new passive aggressive sadistic streak or seeking help at http://www.Islamophobia-anonymous.com

    Here is your proof Biotch…

    American Coptic Union Calls for U.S. Sanctions Against Egypt
    http://ahmedsalib.wordpress.com/2007/03/23/american-coptic-union-calls-for-us-sanctions-against-egypt/
    Don’t forget this body represents all Copts in America including the likes of your wee-bit-small-brain self. So typical of all the sites you have been dropping on this blog.

    Wow you are worse than a Hammas Fundie crock pot bitch on Jesus Christ Crack You Low Life Piece of Shit Loser!

  36. Mohamed says:

    American Coptic Union Calls for U.S. Sanctions Against Egypt

    http://ahmedsalib.wordpress.com/2007/03/23/american-coptic-union-calls-for-us-sanctions-against-egypt/

    DO a YOUTUBE SEARCH ABOUT COPTIC AMERICA and I GUARANTEE EVERYONE WILL BE SURPRISED and SEE WHERE THE SECTERIAN FIRE IS GETTING ITS DISGRUNTLED FUEL FROM.

    AS IF MOOSH KEFAYA 3LAYANA SANDMONKEY, WE ARE GONNA HAVE TO PUT UP WITH YOUR SORRY ASS AS WELL.

  37. EgyPeter says:

    Whatever the fuck # Muhammad you are – get an education you ignorant shit!!!

    I wasn’t foul mouthed before but dirtbags like you tend to bring out the best in me!

    What are you so afraid of you pathetic coward?? The truth coming out??

  38. lol,
    If egypt is ever going to break apart it will be because of reactionaries’ disspraportionate response (muslim and christian). when a tragedy like this happens, we shouldn’t be pointing the finger at one another, we should be uniting to bring justice to the families of the vicitims. This isn’t to say that there won’t be secretarian strife and crimes commited by both sides now, and in the future, (there always are, anywhere in the world), but a country’s defining factor comes out not in what crimes are commited, but how Egyptians, both christian and muslim react to them

  39. mohamed No. 1. I believe the copts wanted action against Egypt because of the abuses against copts under Egypt’s regime, they want the US to help out but the US has other more important interests.

    So what’s your point here? Yes copts are abused in Egypt by the Muslim majority! That’s what EgyPeter and the news article states.

  40. Mohamed says:

    Small brain — Don’t try and give excuses…

    Follow the LINK and there you have the TrUTH………

    American Coptic Union Calls for U.S. Sanctions Against Egypt
    http://ahmedsalib.wordpress.com/2007/03/23/american-coptic-union-calls-for-us-sanctions-against-egypt/
    Don’t forget this body represents all Copts in America including the likes of your wee-bit-small-brain self. So typical of all the sites you have been dropping on this blog.

    Bird brain!

  41. yup Comment 27 exposes a sad irony & pretty much tells it like it, even with the foul language but definitely has good link to the franchise of sectarian strife fuelled by the not so worthy and level headed individuals as they claim to be

  42. DO a YOUTUBE SEARCH ABOUT COPTIC AMERICA and I GUARANTEE EVERYONE WILL BE SURPRISED and SEE WHERE THE SECTERIAN FIRE IS GETTING ITS DISGRUNTLED FUEL FROM.

    AS IF MOOSH KEFAYA 3LAYANA SANDMONKEY, WE ARE GONNA HAVE TO PUT UP WITH YOUR SORRY ASS AS WELL.

    Habben tu bea Gelty as sharjde untel Brofen azarwyz no?

  43. MohamedMohamed says:

    LOL!

  44. MohamedMohamed says:

    American Coptic Union Calls for U.S. Sanctions Against Egypt

    http://ahmedsalib.wordpress.com/2007/03/23/american-coptic-union-calls-for-us-sanctions-against-egypt/

    DO a YOUTUBE SEARCH ABOUT COPTIC AMERICA and I GUARANTEE EVERYONE WILL BE SURPRISED and SEE WHERE THE SECTERIAN FIRE IS GETTING ITS DISGRUNTLED FUEL FROM.

    AS IF MOOSH KEFAYA 3LAYANA SANDMONKEY, WE ARE GONNA HAVE TO PUT UP WITH YOUR SORRY ASS AS WELL.

  45. CarpetCaptain says:

    I agree with Peter on this wholeheartedly. Who else other than the usual suspecs is there to blame for such an incident specially when followed by another one http://www.masrawy.com/News/Cases/General/2008/may/30/robbery.aspx a day later?

    The Copts abroad have done nothing wrong unless you call bringing the plight of an oppressed minority wrong. I haven’t seen anything that resembles a meaningful solution from within. If anything the bigoted rhetoric has increased and the religious “leadership” has failed miserable to lead both religiously and politically. They’ve supported a corrupt regime where they had no business in supporting or opposing and hve gone as far as defrocking a priest for publicly supporting the opposition.

    The jihadistas in the meantime have killed, raped, stolen, forcefully converted, opened venues that discriminate based on religion and the list goes on ad on and on.

    Twosret I disagree with you that the Copts abroad have harmed the fabric of race relations in gypt. If it wasn’t for them being as vocal as they/we are I think things would be a lot worse (if thats even possible)

    Mohammads I wonder what you’ve done to prevent sectaria strife from ever breaking out or towards educating a young Muslim boy to not run round with that amount of hatred in his heart.

  46. Mohamed says:

    CarpetCaptain,
    It’s amazing that you’re excusing all of the hatred coming from that rabid Egypeter creature, whose by any objective measure has got the same extreme mentality of Nazis, Crusaders and Jihadists, and whose mental unbalance is beyond obvious, then make completely blind and irrational assumptions of what I’ve done or didn’t do to educate someone who I might have never met about some hatred that I might have never observed, at least I’ve never stereotyped or lumped an entire group of people into an assumed pattern of behavior like that pathetic low class street raised loser.

  47. Charlie says:

    —”Police, who swiftly cordoned off the area, found 15 revolver shell casings at the scene”—

    Pretty strange, two gunmen and 15 revolver shell casings is. Revolvers usually don’t eject cartridges. Unless, one is reloading and dumps all the spent cartridges. Then one must explain 15 shell casings from possible 5 or 6 shot combinations. I’ve got either 3 five shot revolvers, or 2 five shot revolvers, one of which was emptied and reloaded two times. It all would be so much easier if they were semi automatic shell casings.

  48. CarpetCaptain says:

    Mohammad I didnt hear any hatred come out of his mouth and I dont see the parallel to Jihadistas, nazis or even neo cons. I havent seen any reference to violence from him.

    On the other hand i see nothing but excuses and a general ostrich attitude where you’re completely ignoring the real source of the problem. Are you surprised that he thinks that culprits will either never be found and if found deemed nutso? We havent seen this before. EVER…RIGHT?

    And let me hear you say that you’v never observed any sectarian hatred during your life/visits to Egypt. Give me a fucking break, I visit there twice a year for about 2 weeks at a time and its so obvious, insidious and exercised by the vast majority. Very few don’t but the remainder of the ignorant ass backward population does. Take a minute to think about it and you tell me who’s excusing the hatred.

  49. MoSlamsEgyPutter says:

    comment 24 is the disturbing reality of those who claim to be level headed but are actually far from it.

  50. Mohamed says:

    CarpetCaptain,
    “Didn’t hear any hatred come out of his mouth?”, really? Seriously, Really? You’ve got to be either kidding or have some kind of judgment deficit disorder.
    And some honesty please, can you repeat where did I write down those “excuses” as you put it, or are you just making things up?

  51. CarpetCaptain, Mo’s an angry jihaddy, he doesn’t make much sense so you may just want to sit back and take note of his mental instability as most of us here do. It’s more entertaining that way, don’t waste your time confronting him with logic and rational, he’s immune to it!! :)

  52. EgyPeter says:

    Ay Ay, Captain :)

    We all know it’s those jihady fundamentalist Christians in Egypt that are really causing all the sectarian strife. Those stories of monks going off and living in the desert are all just really a cover up. They’re actually amassing arms and getting ready for battle…

    Btw – there was a story reported in one of Egypt’s half ass newspapers not too long ago about how monks were storing weapons in monasteries. Can you believe that shit??

    And mohameds – I’ll keep repeating until you can get it through your thick thick skull. The ONLY things I am intolerant of are intolerant ignorant religio-nazis! Do you understand??

  53. Mohamed says:

    Tedders,
    Whatever.

  54. @ tedders
    I think Mohamed would enjoy a leisure walk through Pat Dollards Website http://patdollard.com/ It is crisp yet it heals your soul :)

  55. Well, if I were those Christians, I would be packing under the counter just in case.

  56. If 15 kilos of gold were stolen, that would mean 15 @ $28562.00 U.S. = $428,430.00 U.S. worth of gold, and jewellery gold is valued a lot higher, so they are talking at least half a million in gold would have been stolen. Why not just steal the gold at gun point? Why shoot everyone in the shop?

  57. CarpetCaptain says:

    “CarpetCaptain, Mo’s an angry jihaddy, he doesn’t make much sense ”

    As opposed to all those pleasant happy go lucky jihadistas that overwhelm us with their common sense, reasoning and charm?

  58. CarpetCaptain says:

    “Why not just steal the gold at gun point? Why shoot everyone in the shop?”

    Why fly planes into buildings? Why wear explosive belts? Why drive a car bomb into a UN building? Two words:

    72 virgins!

  59. EgyPeter says:

    Here’s another nugget on the state of affairs these days…

    It’s really quite a fascinating debate. Oh, the genius of these terrorists! As for me, I’m all for female suicide bombers as long as it’s PRIOR to their ability to breed.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080531/ap_on_re_mi_ea/al_qaida_s_women_1

    But then again, the seeds of this schism must be some Copto-Zionist-US conspiracy, as most everything is in the ME…

  60. EgyPeter says:

    Hey Mohameds -

    Would you think of this brand new story?

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080531/wl_mideast_afp/egyptreligionunrest_080531210806

    More “fear-mongering” and “always playing the victim” right here?!!

    I’m probably wrong in the saying that the pot is starting to boil over, right?

  61. CarpetCaptain says:

    I dont usually read this piece of shit paper but i saw it referenced from another blog ( http://egyptianchronicles.blogspot.com/ ) and had to really go see what they wrote http://www.dostor.org/?q=node/3629 . I guess the spin has already started and the man is essentially being called `shylock` even before the crime lab has come up with anything.

    Apparently the man is guilty of travelling to Europe and the US eventhough his shop is in a poor neighbourhood. I can already picture the editorials full of rumour and innuendo to assasinate the victim`s character and essentially turn him into a `filthy Jew` and thus deserving of a horrible death. In the meantime the perpetrators will be deemed criminally insane.

    In a week from now it will turn into Israel`s, the Zionists`and Bush`s fault that this whole unfortunate incident happened.

  62. MoSlams says:

    I only have one thing to say.

    I have been very tolerant of Copts and thought I always would be but after reading the vile contrite repulsive lingo expressed in the most archaic neanderthal manner from the likes of the so called advocates of Copts.
    If this is any indication of what Copts are like, then I all out hate em just as much as I hate the smell of garbage every time i drive by a Coptic garbage slum in Egypt

    YOU GUYS MADE EGYPETER OUT TO BE A FUCKING MARTYR. the kink that he left above exposes the ignorance of the Copts he is trying to uplift. It describes how they attacked the hospital with stones when it was Copts that were in the hospital being treated from gun shot wounds.
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080531/wl_mideast_afp/egyptreligionunrest_080531210806
    “An angry group of Copts later gathered outside Mallawi hospital in protest, throwing rocks at hospital windows and damaging surrounding property, the official said”

    MOHAMED, NEVER MIND THESE INFIDEL WANNA FIND HEAVEN ON EARTH COCKSUCKERS LIKE TEDDERS BEARS. ROMAN KA-LICK BALLS. CRAIG HITLER, FART’N CAPTAIN. YOU WILL ALWAYS AND I MEAN ALWAYS FIND THESE VILE VERMIN HERE. FOE YEARS NOW, AS AOPPOSSED TO US CASUAL WANDERERS THAT JSUT STOP TO TAKE A LOOK.

    THEY FEED ON IT.

  63. MoSlams says:
  64. Mohamed says:

    Actually MosLams, you and those vile creatures (Egypeter, Tedders, Roman and Captain Ron Jeremy etc.) are one and the same kind, a lunatic extreme hateful bunch of retards. Only, you’re moslem and they’re jewish or christian, and I don’t have a shadow of a doubt, if we rolled the dice and mixed and matched religions among you, you’d end up writing the same exact comments except you’d switch every time you wrote “copt” by “moslem” and vice versa, and the same would definitely go for the rest of the retards.

  65. Hehehe!! :)

  66. MoSlams says:

    PRECISELY, IT TAKES FIRE TO FIGHT FIRE.

    YOU CAN”T WIN IF YOU ARE GONNA BE A GOD FEARING TOLERANT BUNCH!

    LEARN FROM THE FASCIST BATTLE HARDENED REGIME OF ISRAEL. DECEPTIVE AND AS SLITHERING AS A REGIME HAS EVER BEEN IN THE HISTORY OF MAN.

    PLUS PLEASE DONT TURN MARTYRED GOOD SAMARITAN ON ME.

    YOU ARE FORGETTING A VERY IMPORTANT POINT.

    AN EYE FOR AN EYE…BIOTCH!

    I PROVED MY POINT!

  67. JewsRule says:

    Hey shut up, don’t call us fascists, that is suppossed to be a secret.

    But you gotta admit, WE’re good, huh!

    After the holocaust, we have a monopoly on the word hate now!

    Wanna fight lol?

  68. Mohamed says:

    Imposters…

  69. Dude, i don’t understand WHY you want to spread BULLSHIT! why don’t you wait and see what happened and who did it before you go and spread rumors which NO ONE IS SURE OF YET!!

    Coptic or Muslim on that day EGYPTIANS were killed, no one knows and there are NO CLUES pointing to it being a Religious thing!! Man i just dont understand people like you TRYING to start tension.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TNN5tjlRss Enjoy this video

  70. @Egypeter: You are one Racist, fundementalist Nut-Job, no better than the stupid bearded Islamic fundementalists we all hate so much.

    It always seems a few Copts in the USA are always trying to act as if in Egypt people are walking around shooting at Christians..Well thats not the case AT ALL!! Come to Egypt and show me this going on!

    Very few we have bad apples and bad people in every religion and at the end “EGYPTIANS” suffer, Copt, Muslim or Jew!

    Egypeter you are sadly a fundementalist Egyptian and i know for a fact you are a minority in the Coptic community because most Copts do not think like you.

    10 years ago in Egypt i never even heard Copt/Muslim Bullshit..So to the sources who are always trying and striving to divide us EGYPTIANS you will NEVER sucseed NO MATTER what you do, Egypt is SECULAR by nature! So to FUNDEMENTALIST wheather they are Copts or Muslims go try your BS somewhere else!

  71. Mohamed says:

    This is the real Mohamed,

    Thanx Big pharaoh.

    A mighty voice of reason indeed.

    Eshta & meye/meya 3laik

  72. Mohamed says:

    Yo Tarek, I meant modern Pharaoh, not big pharaoh, sorry about that bro.

    How’s the realestate bizz go’n?

  73. There has been three incidents lately. Two attacks on jewelery shops in Alexandria and Cairo and a land dispute in Minia. Three incidents in key locations and in less than a week. Coincidence? Trouble between Muslims and Copts will justify the state of emergency, will cast serious doubts about the ability of the Muslim Brotherhood (the biiggest opposition force) to rule Egypt. It provides a very convenient distraction from issues like corruption, human rights abuses and lack of democracy. It will convince many people to accept autocratic police state tactics to save them from the sectarian demon. It portrays Egyptians as bigoted religious maniacs who need to be ruled with an iron fist otherwise we’ll turn into another Iraq. I’m not accusing the government of doing it and I’m not ruling out the other possible motives (criminal or sectarian), but it’s definitely the biggest possible winner from this shit and it ultimately has the military oomph to crush any violence that might errupt.

  74. Mohamed says:

    Mohamed @ 53 & 54,
    Use a different name ya bro, I’m starting to get confused myself, not that I really disagree with you, but I’d never say something like “eshta & meya/meya 3laik”.

  75. anotheranon says:

    I love how muslims are telling copts that it isn’t so bad. Like you’d really want to trade places!

  76. @anotheranon: Your tone Muslims/Copts are exactly what 95% of Egyptians AVOID! We are EGYPTIANS…I don’t care what Religion a FUNDEMENTALIST is, he may be a copt or a Muslim, either way you will see they both have the same undertones and same racist and self rightous ideas..a Fundementalist is a Fundementalist thats it!!

    Like i said 95% of Egyptians harbour no tension towards one another but its the dirty fundementalists on both sides that cause tension..

    This freaking story is the prime example…as soon as the crime took place the victims religion became the main focus..without knowing any EVIDENCE or having any proof…but either way NOTHING will happen between Muslims and Copts in Egypt because we are all EGYPTIANS and a VERY FEW bad apples won’t beable to break this!

    Now my great Egyptians, why don’t we enjoy a video of EGYPT!
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=7TNN5tjlRss

  77. EgyPeter says:

    Half of you guys are fairly fucking laughable…

    Modern Pharaoh, who the hell are you exactly??

    I hate to break it to you bro…but the sectarian bullshit that is infesting Egypt is the fault of Islamic Fundamentalism. Sorry.

    You can keep telling yourself that the problems all lie on the Christians. But most people know the truth these days…all you gotta do is just read the internet. No more hiding, no more deception and lies. The truth will come out and the world will know what’s really going on behind the veil in Egypt.

    Um, and I’m not sure what Copts you know modern pharaoh – but they are ALL just like me :) As a matter of fact, this morning at church I just signed a petition sponsored by Congressman Frank Wolf criticizing Egypt on its Human Rights record and putting stipulations on the billions that the US hands to Egypt. And it was weird, Modern Pharaoh, there were hundreds of signatures on the petition…but then again, they’re all probably just “alarmists,” right?

  78. Egypeter: I know Egyptian Copts, not American cry babies such as yourself, and i know Egyptian copts in high places, people that aren’t scared to talk and aren’t scared of anyone and i know their opinions!!

    And i never blamed it on CHRISTIANS as you say…but ofcourse your fanatical ways make you jump to conclusions!! and you can have George the idiot Bush the petition himself “TOZ” so what!!!

    You talk as if copts are getting killed in the streets of Egypt or something day by day..lol, Your nuts…Maybe you should have your Daddy Bush come invade Egypt and liberate it like he did Iraq!!

    You don’t even live here and who knows when the last time you were here was…American Copts are 90% of the complainers…Face it buddy, Egypt is 85% Muslim so Ofcourse ANY MINORITY in the world will a bit of tension, this is TRUE of anywhere in the world…but you and your co-horts try to make it seem like its some disaster..your nuts

    I repeat Come to Egypt and show me the differences between Muslim/Copt..Were all EGYPTIANS you little cry baby!! Quit complaining, no one cares what religion you are, your a complainer weather your a Muslim,copt or Jew…your simply a Fundementalist..you wanna make a change, then come to Egypt, your little Fags in Washington wont help you, Trust me!

  79. and by the way Egypeter, lets agree to disagree…in the End were both Egyptians who LOVE our country! :)

    I hope you also know that i have a deep hatered for fundementalist Islamists, and all Muslims should feel this way because those idiots cause the most harm to Islam, so when you and I disagree, understand that your dealing with a very Secular person for a Secular Egypt..if you have time *alot of time, lol* Read this post!

    http://modernpharaoh.blogspot.com/2008/03/secular-liberal-egypt.html

  80. Twosret says:

    This is very sad very sad to see. I will agree with Modern Pharaoh and say WE ARE ALL EGYPTIANS. Every Muslim and Christian in Egypt will need to be reminded that WE ARE ALL EGYPTIANS and we need to work on our problems.

    Egypeter,

    Not all Copts are like you I disagree with you. I am a Copt that disagree with your approach to this topic. You were born in America and you are American. I was born in Egypt a Copt that was raised in Egypt and lived in Heliopolis went to three major churchs there St. Mark (cleopatra) St. Mary (Ard el Golf) M. Guirguis (El Hegaz) and occasionally to El Maraa’shly Zamalek. Non of the Copts in these church spoke your language or felt the way you feel.

    The Coptic churches in America needs major reformation and Pope Shenouda needs to be very strict about the hate that breeds in it. Seriously it is not your fault I don’t blame you I have seen it many times in many churches here in the US.

    Egypt that I was raised in is not the Egypt you talk about and yes there is tension and minority problems but for any of you to say that people are killed in the streets on daily basis.

    I wish you saw Egypt and lived in it to realize how other Egyptians see your views as extreme.

    I will be more than happy to introduce you to many Egyptians who lived half their lives in Egypt and share my views and how they are shocked at the Coptic American churches and how the people here are blinded by extreme behavior.

  81. Twosret says:

    Mike,

    I’m amazed at your involvement in this issue and your ultimate hypocrisy at trying to throw my way any of your nonsense. If I were you I would worry so much about Israel your beloved country and it’s multiple discrimmination problems instead of trying to be a Egypt lover.

    Don’t you try to tell me that extreme Jewish zionists love Christians.

  82. Mohamed says:

    Modern Pharaoh,
    Most probably the copts you’ve dealt with in Egypt were middle and higher middle class, people who you went to school with, their mom or dad drove you to the swimming practice (in my case) when you were a kid, and people you’ve worked with, super nice,loyal friends, helpful and funny, and who would find the language and opinions used by this low life to be quiet appalling. On the other hand I think that people like Egypeter and his friends originally came from very hungry, and deprived backgrounds (bee2a watya ya3ny, and you can tell that by his language, and by the level of his education), that’s why you’d find he’s got the same hate shared by moslem extremists who come from the same background.
    So where are you originally from Egypeter, Sidi Beshr or el Anfooshy?

  83. Twosret says:

    Mohamed,

    I disagree with you Egypeter is not from that class you are referring to. That is kind of cruel of you to say. He is simply raised among other Copts who left Egypt based on discrimmination. I think that 10-15 % of Copt who immigrated early on was based on both economy or discrimmination problem which is a fact we can’t deny.

    The problem is that the rest of them didn’t suffer from any discrimmination and they fuel the congregation based on nothing.

    We all go foul sometimes when frustrated you know :)

  84. Mohamed says:

    El Mar3ashly Church? No kidding ya Twosret, most probably I know half of the people you went to church with, specially if they went to the Jesuit or Port Said or El Gezira club, and those are the exact people I was talking about @#63, you’re 100% right, Egypeter would be an absolute pariah among them.
    I know that’s a very long shot, but do you happen to know Morad Gorgy? He used to goto el mar3ashly and went to the Jesuit and used to live in Ibn Zenky, I tried to track him down on Facebook but couldn’t.
    Check those sites:
    http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/05/28/9249/
    http://crescentandcross.com/?p=117&referer=sphere_related_content

  85. EgyPeter says:

    What “fanatical” ways do you keep talking about?? And you keep throwing around “fundamentalist” – do you even know what it means??

    “You talk as if copts are getting killed in the streets of Egypt or something day by day..lol, Your nuts…Maybe you should have your Daddy Bush come invade Egypt and liberate it like he did Iraq!!”

    Um, I said that? Can you kindly point out to me where? lol. Don’t put words on my keyboard! But you did read the post, right? I believe it was a post about “Copts getting killed in the street.” Does it happen EVERY day? Well, no, or there wouldn’t be ANY Copts left in Egypt. Does it happen sporadically? YES!! Is it ok that it doesn’t happen EVERY day? NO!

    And wtf does Bush have anything to do with anything? lol. But you’re damn right Washington will be hearing from us! We’re just starting to figure out this whole “lobby” thing :) But don’t be afraid though…I promise it’s JUST THE TRUTH

    “You don’t even live here and who knows when the last time you were here was…American Copts are 90% of the complainers…Face it buddy, Egypt is 85% Muslim so Ofcourse ANY MINORITY in the world will a bit of tension, this is TRUE of anywhere in the world…but you and your co-horts try to make it seem like its some disaster..your nuts”

    No, I don’t live in Egypt… but last I checked, I don’t think Scottsdale, AZ is in Egypt either. Maybe that disqualifies YOU from commenting on affairs in Egypt! And not that it really matters, but I was last in Egypt in ’04 and I’m going back later this summer with a stop in Israel, insha’allah. When was the last time YOU were in Egypt MP? And you’re wrong about 90% of American Copts being the “complainers”…it’s closer to 100%. Cuz when we’re allowed to breathe in that beautiful beautiful free air the truth starts to gush out. I don’t know if you know, but it’s a little hard to speak your mind in Egypt these days. And who would Copts in Egypt “complain” to anyways? Muburak?? Lol. And what do you expect exactly, American Egyptian-Muslims to “complain” about their own treatment of Copts?? Lol, now that doesn’t make much sense, does it? But there are some very brave exceptions like the Farag Fouda’s, Sayid El Kimin’s and Tarik Heggy’s of the world…and SM!

    Here are more “bits of tension” for you to read. Brand new story:

    http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/E77B0CA4-4D9A-4DF8-8375-59694E2A6522.htm

    What’s your response to that? Anyway, it seems that you wrote me your first response and then realized it may have been a bit harsh and then wrote me a little more conciliatory second response. I’ve never ever called for revolution or any form of violence in my life. But there’s gotta be a tipping point, right? I desperately want to avoid getting to that juncture. All I’m simply calling for are basic Human Rights for ALL Egyptians. How terrible is that?

  86. EgyPeter says:

    “Non of the Copts in these church spoke your language or felt the way you feel.”

    What is the language that I speak, Two? Are you referring to my calls for equality?? The Copts you knew in Egypt weren’t interested in being treated as equal partners in the same homeland?? Really?

    And twosret, I’ve always found your views to be pretty much on the fringe. And if you ever stop by my neck of the woods I’d be glad to introduce you to about 1000 Coptic families that would agree with me! And it’s you, not me, that does not represent the mainstream American Coptic view point, for sure. Just as Tedders. And is your esteemed opinion that the 100′s of American Coptic Church need major reformation because of the “hate” coming out of them?? Again, I’ll ask you, what Coptic church do you go to??? LOL WTF?!?!? Hahaha, are you kidding me? That one was a doozy!

    And I’m not the one that’s interested in division. I want a unified Egypt based on nationality not religion! I dream of a secular Egypt. But there can be no unity b/w groups if one is intolerant of the other. I’m not interested in restricting the rights of Muslims or anyone else. I’m one of those who believes in real Freedom of Religion and not just “respect” for the “three heavenly religions” as some Egyptians like to say, which they hardly do anyways.

    Did you read the article Two about the attack on the Abu Fana Monastery in Minya??

  87. EgyPeter says:

    Again, you’re doing the same thing twosret is doing!

    “Bas don’t sit here and act like all Egyptians are crazy fanatical nut-jobs, it is VERY RARE when incidents happen like this, most of the time they are in Sa-eed,”

    WHERE DID I SAY “All Egyptians are crazy fanatical nut-jobs?” Please tell me where!!

    “it is VERY RARE when incidents happen like this, most of the time they are in Sa-eed, and if a person is a muslim and a Christian and they fight, everyone wants to make it into some secetarian B.S, well it won’t happen, and never will, THIS IS NOT LEBANON!”

    I just gave you TWO EXAMPLES of, in ALL liklihood, sectarian incidents that have happened in the last few days!! What the hell else do you want?!!! Are you freaking waiting for people to get butchered in the streets for you to admit that they’re are serious freaking sectarian problems in Egypt! Jeez!! And I don’t give a damn if they are in the Sa’eed or not, does that make it ok? And one of them took place in Alexandria anyways.

    And get off the whole Israel thing. We have enough shit to worry about in our own country. I hate to break it to you, but Israel ain’t goin nowhere.

    “I’m sure once you get to “Israel” your gonna try spreading rumors and b.s about the treatment of Copts in Egypt your entire trip”

    Lol. That’s pretty stupid. Israelis are smart not stupid. They know exactly wtf is going on in Egypt…

    Oh, and this one:

    “You were last in 2004 and your talking as if you live here or something!”

    Pretty weak.

  88. EgyPeter says:

    @ Mohamed.

    You tell me I come from a low class upbringing but it’s YOU that hasn’t stopped insulting and cursing me.

    :)

  89. EgyPeter says:

    Dude, I don’t think you’ve understood a god damn thing I’ve said this whole time!!

    Can’t you understand that I want a return of Egypt to when our parents were growing up?!!! Back when there were normal human relations b/w Egyptians. Back to when Alex used to be awesome and had people from all over the world living there together in relative peace and harmony – all Nasser’s fault, but that’s another topic.

    So you can keep throwing childish insults at me like that asshole Muhamed…but eventually, you’ll figure out, it’s not me and the evil American Copto Zionish Bushite lobby that is the problem with the stink hole that Egypt has become, regardless of some party you went to with your EGYPTIAN friends….quite the contrary, I’m interested in being part of the solution!

    And it’s kinda cute how some of you are trying to equivocate me with the Islamofascists :)

  90. EgyPeter says:

    “Egypeter, sorry but 99% of Egyptian copts who live in Egypt won’t even agreee with you buddy!”

    http://freecopts.net/english/
    http://www.coptsunited.com/
    http://www.copts.com/english/
    http://mychristianblood.blogspirit.com/
    http://www.wataninet.com/

  91. EgyPeter says:

    Look MP, I can give you plenty examples the other way of my experiences in Egypt, too. And I don’t doubt that you are a secular (practicing) Egyptian Muslim who doesn’t care about the other’s faith. Fine. But then, you are by no means the norm.

    MP, can you deny that Egypt has undergone a religious (Islamic) transformation over the last decade or so? Would you say Egypt is becoming more or less conservative? Would you say sympathy and popularity of the Ikhwan is growing or weakening?

    Two simple questions.

  92. EgyPeter says:

    Egypt is NOT secular. I actually find this notion quite off balance. The only countries I can think of in this world that Egypt would be considered “secular” to would be Saudi Arabia and Iran. So yeah, compared to those two maybe….but to the rest of humanity, no.

  93. “Just as Tedders.”

    ?Not sure what that means? I thought I was on your side EgyPeter!! LOL

    But like some others have said, we are all just people of different beliefs and don’t advocate the repression of anyone, let’s tone down the personal innuendos and attacks, they do nothing for your arguement.

    I cut and pasted 14 news articles from Muslim violence on Copts in Egypt but it said the filter had tagged me and it was under review by administration?? I’ve never been to Egypt but there are plenty of news articles (from uber liberal news company’s ) that tell me there are some problems. I work for an Egyptian Copt general contractor (who is a deacon[is that the correct term?] at his Copt church) that tells me the same kind of stories, he is not a liar, it’s the reason he left Egypt. It seems odd that most of you can’t even imagine Muslim on Christian violence, seems very odd!

  94. Patrick says:

    Egypeter, you are making a fool out of yourself. Sure, these events are totally disgusting and condemnable, and the onus of responsibility for the very real sectarian tensions is on Islamic fundamentalists, but you are making rash generalizations, exaggerations, and inciteful language. My father is Coptic and I was born and raised in America and I’ve been back to Egypt a bunch of times, and I really don’t think its nearly as bad as you and some of the right-wing Copts make it out to be. The richest family in Egypt is Coptic for Christ sake. There is general peace and stability. If there wasn’t, there would be no Christians left. The fact is that Christians are pretty well-assimilated into all aspects of Egyptian society, and that even though there are real tensions that NEED to be addressed, the solution is not to paint Muslims with a broad, bad brush. The solution is to encourage dialogue and interreligious friendships and to silence the voices of hate and extremism on both sides and achieve mutual respect and tolerance. Egypt is in the midst of an Islamic fundamentalist religious revival, as it has been for the past 10 years, but hopefully, the revival is losing steam now, and in a few more years, I’m confident we’ll back to the same liberal, tolerant, cosmopolitan Egypt of the 1960s.

  95. EgyPeter says:

    tedders, you’re awesome. I know you’re on my “side” :)

    I think you misunderstood me and it’s my fault. That was supposed to be ‘just ASK tedders.’ And it was in reference to the very thing that you just brought up – about the Copt that you work for and the stories that he tells you.

    My father didn’t leave Egypt due to discrimination actually. My father is an Agricultural Engineer and wanted to find greater opportunities abroad. Like I’ve said before, Egypt back during my folks time was TOTALLY TOTALLY different. Christians leaving Egypt for ‘religious reasons’ has been more of a recent thing…

    And yes, ‘deacon’ (sha’mas in arabic ) would be the correct term :)

  96. Thanks EgyptPeter, same goes for me!! :) I really think that Modern Pharaoh, Mohamed, Twosret (whom I dearly love but disagree nearly always with!) and others are so close to the same beliefs and ideals that we’re truly on the same team. Different slants and news sources account for some of the differences but we all want the same end result. Peaceful, prosperous coexistence. Tolerance in the face of fear and change. We all need to accept others that feel the same non violent way. To the ones who chose death and destruction, let them reap what they sow.

    “The fact is that Christians are pretty well-assimilated into all aspects of Egyptian society, and that even though there are real tensions that NEED to be addressed, the solution is not to paint Muslims with a broad, bad brush.”

    Absolutely!! Very lucid point Patrick. I do believe it’s a tiny percentage of extremists that upset the balance for the majority in most societies

  97. EgyPeter says:

    “but you are making rash generalizations, exaggerations, and inciteful language”

    No, I’m not. I’m a little heated about the shit that I’ve been hearing from Egypt the last several days! Four Christians killed in their place of business, a second Christian Jewelry store targeted and an attack on a monastery in a desert!!! All just in the last couple of days! Why the hell don’t you people give a shit?! I don’t get it? And never will! And it’s all, naturally, the right-wing Copts’ fault!!! Makes me sick!

    “The richest family in Egypt is Coptic for Christ sake.”

    Who gives a shit? That means absolutely NOTHING. And some of the poorest people are Copts, you’ve heard of the Zabaleen, right? So, what’s your point?

    “There is general peace and stability. If there wasn’t, there would be no Christians left. ”

    That’s just ridiculous. What kind of demented logic is that? The mere existence of Christians in Egypt shows the benevolence of Egyptian Muslims? Huh? I think Bin Laden is on record recently for saying that Islam can coexist with other religions and actually referenced the Copts of Egypt.

    Now, Patrick, with that said, I couldn’t agree more with:

    “the solution is not to paint Muslims with a broad, bad brush. The solution is to encourage dialogue and interreligious friendships and to silence the voices of hate and extremism on both sides and achieve mutual respect and tolerance. Egypt is in the midst of an Islamic fundamentalist religious revival, as it has been for the past 10 years, but hopefully, the revival is losing steam now, and in a few more years, I’m confident we’ll back to the same liberal, tolerant, cosmopolitan Egypt of the 1960s.”

    My god, I’m desperate to build bridges with Egyptian Muslims!! I AM on an Egyptian Muslims’ blog whom I highly respect. I gave you shining examples of Egyptian Muslims that I am very proud of. Don’t listen to those ‘Mohameds’, I am the exact opposite of people like that…I’m ALL for pluralism and I have tons of friends from every imaginable stock.

    I hope you’re right! That would be a dream if Egypt returned to its more liberal era. But you are much more optimistic than I am. I don’t Egypt has bottomed out yet.

  98. Mohamed says:

    Tedders,
    Ofcourse there’s hate crimes and incidents of sectarian violence in Egypt, but as regrettable as they are, how many per year? Three, four, twenty incidents (and that’s the way it always was and unfortunately the way it’ll always be, until they invent a way to prevent bigots and nut jobs from being born) , if they’re organized and systematic acts of violence committed by some one with a plan, that the average copt in Egypt would be fearing for his life more than an average moslem just because he’s copt, then I’d be the first one to agree with Egypeter, but that’s simply not the case and anyone who thinks otherwise is either misguided or lying.
    Setting the exaggerations aside and to put it in perspective, in any other country in the world with minorities of different races and sects, what’s the average number of hate crimes per year, what’s the average in Germany or Italy (hear about the Gypsy camp near Rome set on fire recently with the blessing of the neo fascist new mayor of Rome?), what’s the average number in the US compared to Egypt.
    Yeah Twosret, Sawiris as president would definitely make us all proud, or at least prime minister.
    Modern pharaoh, you’re absolutely right, something’s really wrong and condescending about using the word “my coptic friends” instead of just “my friends”, thanks a lot Egypeter.

  99. That incident may not have been sectarian in nature, but this one appears to have been.

  100. It is important to remember that if nothing was stolen it may have only been because violence occurred where a thief thought there would be no resistance. Once you’ve killed a man during the course of a robbery, taking off the with his stuff is going to seem like a very secondary consideration for most criminals.

  101. One thing to keep in mind is that while sectarian violence may only be an exceptional occurrence in today’s Egypt, things have the potential to spiral out of control quickly. In a well-ordered* country like Egypt, civil strife is not going to develop any other way.

    If you had asked any random Sunni, Shiite, or Christian resident of Lebanon on the eve of that country’s civil war if there was any chance of the carnage that would follow, most would have thought the question ridiculous. These religious groups certainly had their disagreements, but few could have imagined the violence that would engulf the country shortly thereafter. Many people in Lebanon would have pointed out that they or their family had friends and colleagues who were from different religious backgrounds than their own. “How could significant violence occur under such congenial circumstances?” they might have asked.

    Fewer still would have guessed that in a couple of decades after a civil war that Beirut, once the “Paris of the Middle East,” would be looking like a strong contender for the title of a future “Tehran on the Mediterranean.”

    Things can change more quickly than we might imagine.

    [* By well-ordered I simply mean that Egypt's central government has a strong hold over the entire country. The same cannot be said of the central of governments of Afghanistan, Pakistan, or Somalia, for example. I'm well aware that Egypt is plagued by insidious corruption. Sectarian violence in such well-ordered societies is likely to remain relatively low-key until there is a significant crisis that weakens the authority of the central government. After that, it can get ugly.]

  102. i don’t think you can compare a country like lebanon to egypt, simply because lebanon has a much more violent history then egypt. Also, still wondering about what the “coptic” view on nasser vs. sadat is.

  103. ModernPharoah

    Poverty+Uneducation breeds hate.

    This is the easiest explanation but it’s not accurate, else we’d be seeing murderous sectarianism in all the poorest and most illiterate parts of the world. We do not. The 9-11 terrorists and the terrorists that attacked various European sites were well educated and well –off.

    Sectarianism arises in cultures where hatred of the other is considered acceptable and gets passed down through the generations. While the average person isn’t violent, their collective bigotries create the people who are. If people don’t disinfect hatred from every part of their society, it’s going to metastasize and turn their country into Iraq, Yugoslavia, or Kenya.

  104. EgyPeter says:

    MP – I finally read that post you linked to your blog. And now I must admit that it was very brave and powerful!! There was VERY little that I disagreed with in your article. And you wouldn’t think that we could agree on anything based on our little argument here :) You showed an ability to critically think and this is something that is sorely lacking in Egypt. Excellent article, indeed.

    And I also think that comments from some of your readers also proved my point. Some of that stuff was pretty scary but you showed the same disgust that I would. I mean, some of those people showed a true contempt for Egyptian Christians….but not you. I believe it was Mehdi Akef that said a Malaysian Muslim has more authority to govern Egypt than an Egyptian Christian! Sad (and really bizarre).

    Our hope and vision for Egypt is MUCH more similar than it is different! So I’m sorry if I misunderstood you or pissed you off…too badly :)

  105. Mohamed#1 says:

    @113 EgyPeters comment, some one piinch me, OMG there is a God.

    In the bible it says enter into the kigdom of thy Lord.

    In the Quran it says, Allah guides whom he willeth and leads astray whom he willeth.

    Mabrouk Modern Pharoah and congrats EgyPeter for finally having that stick removed from your anus.

    Now run along and enjoy and be good little Muslims and Christians and play together nicely from now on…

    Amen

  106. ModernPharaoh says:

    All my comments getting filtered! WTF?

  107. CarpetCaptain says:

    “The Coptic churches in America needs major reformation and Pope Shenouda needs to be very strict about the hate that breeds in it. Seriously it is not your fault I don’t blame you I have seen it many times in many churches here in the US.”

    You’re kidding me right? What hatred have they been breeding? IS bringing out the inequality that their families in the old country are subjected to equate to hatred? Lets face it most of the churches in the diaspora are as much social/community clubs as they are places of worship. I’m sure you’ve had the private conversations with the various “touring Bishops” and they feel gagged by the Pope and are happy to see someone discussing the plight of ll the copts.

    As far as Egypt being secular thats not true and we all know it. Any country that derives its laws from Sharia is NOT SECULAR. I believe its article two of the constitution that stipulates that all laws have to adhere to the Sharia. Last i checked that wasnt secular.

    Are there some secular Egyptians? definitely but its such a small minute numer of goldfish living in a pool full of nothing but piranhas and sharks. All they are is just fodder for the turbans to bash and equate with the infidels.

  108. CarpetCaptain says:

    Here’s an article that I ran into written by an Egyptian who lives in frogland regarding the radicalization of Egypt.

    http://www.ahewar.org/debat/show.art.asp?t=0&userID=122&aid=136769

  109. “All my comments getting filtered! WTF?”

    Yeah, it’s weird, happened to me a time or two. It seems sporadic.

  110. @CarpetCaptain: man what a moving article…i can’t imagine what i would do if i came back and found someone i know wearing this retarded NIKAB, i would boot them in the face probably!! MORONS…freaking beards and Nikab are the sign of a pious Muslim nowadays i guess..Ya Khosara!

  111. CarpetCaptain says:

    Modern Pharoah, its freakin’ scary! I’ll tell you a similar story from personal experience. I was in Egypt in December and had this brother and sister who have always been best friends with my sister and I as has has our parents (they all grew up together). The last time I saw them about 8 months earlier we had said our good byes with the usual kisses on the cheeks to both him and her. So I see them at my parents door and i go put my hand out to shake her hand and she refuses (she had worn a hijab now). Needlessly i asked her if she had lost her mind which set her off o some religious rant to which her brother responded verbatim and in english “seebak menha my fucking sister has lost her mind”

    It was one of the sadest days of my life.

    Then the plot thickens, a few days later I ran into our neighbour who used to take turns with my mom babysitting her two kids and us. Again a very very close friend. I was taking to her husband while we were waiting for the cars to be brought out of the garage and she whowed up. She was wearing a hijab with gloves, when i put my hand out to shake her hand my sister pulled my hand back and apologized for on my behalf. Totally bewildered I couldnt wait for the awkward moment to end and to ask my sister what the fuck. So my sister explained that she doesn’t shake hands with men, “but i was only going to shake her hand not play with her tits” I responded my sister’s response was ADI (she had moved back to Egypt a couple of years back).

    We’re not talking about the dumb and uneducated simpletons. This lady and her husband are both Professors in Kasr El Aini and he’s a dept, head there.

  112. Mohamed says:

    Tedders,
    They’re being filtered to protect you from yourself, in case, god forbid, you try something as dumb as the mixup you made on Monday.

  113. Hell Mohamed, the filter didn’t do a thing when I could have used it on Monday!!
    6 day war, Yom Kipper war…..oy!?!?! :)

    But I post something with no mistakes at it flags me right away!! LOL :)

  114. Mohamed says:

    Yeah Tedders, where’s that elusive filter when you really needed it, maybe it’s on my side :) .
    And for the record, nothing that you post is without mistakes :) .

  115. Khalas what can we do? The Govt saw all these signs and symptoms of religious fanaticism rising and they didnt do anything to stop..NOTHING!

    F-It , time to bring out the army, goto those little neighboorhoods where people go in normal and come out with a beard, and start whooping some ass..arrest every bearded person and harass every nikabi and make all their lives miserable…then do a strong attack on them in the media, even pin every crime on them..who cares!

    I don’t even mind starting a God Damn civil war against those idiots if necessary..yes i have lost my mind, specially that yesterday around dawn i went downstairs to buy some cigs or find an open place to buy cigs and i saw 10 or 15 of those bearded scary looking idiots, all dressed like pakistanis and talking together in the street *they must have just left prayer* they looked scary wallahey…they said to me “Salamo 3liko” i just looked and raised my hand like HI and didn’t answer them! i truly felt like a stranger in my own country!

  116. “maybe it’s on my side.”

    Heck Mohamed, we’re not on opposite sides, at least I don’t think we are!

  117. CarpetCaptain says:

    “Khalas what can we do? The Govt saw all these signs and symptoms of religious fanaticism rising and they didnt do anything to stop..NOTHING!”

    Nothing to stop my ass! they did everything to encourage it and fuel it. They allowed al azhar to confiscate books, issue ridiculous fatwas and call everyone and their dog a kafir. Then it was followed by banning any sort of political activism on university campuses thus allowing the “outlawed organization” to flourish. Then after all these enlightened minds graduated from college they went and found work abroad in equally enlightened countries like Saudi Arabia and other gulf countries. Eventually they brought their doom and gloom back with them to egypt.

    Now its gone as far as closing places of work to pray. With the Egyptian worker being one of the least productive worldwide they really didnt need to stop working a few times a day to reduce that even more. Whats next a ministry of promotion of vice and prevention of virtue (thats what i call them) a la POS Saudi Arabia?

  118. CarpetCaptain says:

    Before you discount this article because where i found it, read it ::

    http://copts.com/english1/index.php/2008/06/04/religious-education-in-the-balance-2/#more-1831

  119. VERY CLEAN INDEED says:

    OMG carpet Captain reads Arabic whaaaaaaa….??

    Ben Gurion University must have some proficient Arabic teachers there after all.

  120. CarpetCaptain says:

    “Ben Gurion University must have some proficient Arabic teachers there after all.”

    I would guess that it does, unlike Cairo, Ain Shams or Alexandria unviersities’ non existant Hebrew departments. I’m sure this will set you off on some brain fart of an anti semitic rant that you heard on Iqraa or read on take your pick of your local POS media.

    For the record I’m as Egyptian as they come and have lost family members in both ’67 and ’73. Unlike you however I\ve never viewed it as a land dispute that ended with a peace accord not as some sort of holy war against the “filthy infidel jews” until the last jew hides behind tree an the tree asks the believer to come kill the jew.

    If you look at the history of war in the 20th century the majority have been resolved once there was a disposition on the battlefield. Germany and Japa both paid restitution and both came back to be two of the greatest economies that exist. I dont see Germans, Japs or Yanks declring any sort of Jihad on each other 60 years later.

    Do me a favour take your condascending attitude and hotaha f’kos omak. How’s my arabic now you stupid douche bag?

  121. hyscience says:

    إن كان لديك سؤال أو إقتراح أو طلبة