Loving the Zeitoun Shooting cover-up

I am. I really really am. Here are so far the reasons provided by the police and the media on why this wasn't a secterian attack:

Justification #1: There are about 12 Coptic owned Jewelry stores in the area surrounding the targeted store. The fact that they targeted this one proves that this is personal and that it wasn't about religion.

Why this is bullshit: Well, they were only two shooters. It's not like they were a big group of pirates who were gonna go on a rape and pillage spree in the middle of the day. They went in, killed 4 people and got away. The fact that they opened fire the moment they stepped into the store kind of goes with the execution-style of such terrorist attacks, not a stick-up scenario. But what do I know? Oh, and by the way, his store is the biggest and most known one in the neighborhood, yet nobody stole anything.

Justification #2: The whole thing was a personal vendetta. The guy was from Upper Egypt, you know.

Why this is bullshit: First of all, almost all Copts are originally from Upper Egypt, so that means shit. Second of all, Vendetta's are very specific: they kill the target, and possibly his family, but never anyone from another family.That would just force a third family to enter into the Vendetta game, which would mean that the attacking family would have to worry about two attackers instead of one. Makes no sense.

Justification #3: This wasn't a religious attack, because there is someone who saw two people who fit the description standing on a street corner two hours after the incident, and one of the had a cross tattooed on his wrist.

Why this is Bullshit: The same witness testified that he noticed the tattoo (which is usually about an inch in size) from a distance. Why was he watching those two? Because apparently one of them was helping the other shoot up heroin in the middle of the day on the streets of Zeitoun. Seriously. The guy's testimony states that he saw two people who fit the description standing from a distance, one of them was shooting a needle into the other's arm, and he could see the cross on that guy's wrist. So Zeitoun now has Mid-day  execution style slaying and people shooting heroin in public. Zeitoun is now Detroit. I believe it. Don't you?

Oh, and by the way, the cute girl who left a comment in the comment section of my previous post about the missing 15 k of gold, well, none of the newspapers mentioned any of this. Which would mean that there is a cover-up in order to make the whole thing seem sectarian. But if that was the case, why is the police trying their hardest to come up with a non-sectarian reason or justification for the incident (see above reasons) if the intent was to paint this crime as a sectarian one? Oh, those sneaky bastards. They must've forced the newspapers to not mention the stolen jewelry in order to give it a sectarian vibe, and then spent days mentioning all possible ridiculous reasons why this couldn't be a sectarian incident in order to make people really believe that this was a sectarian incident. Those sneaky sneaky bastards. They probably killed him too. And the Jooz must've been in on it to stow sectarian strife in Egypt. We might as well go there, right? Since we are, after all, going with crazy theories to justify a rather simple case of hate crime to make it something else. Much easier that way than dealing with it, no?  

Whatever…

0 comment on Loving the Zeitoun Shooting cover-up

  1. EgyPeter
    June 2, 2008 at 4:08 pm

    http://www.metimes.com/International/2008/06/02/egyptians_fear_surge_in_sectarian_clashes/6097/

    “There will be no punishment for the criminals. Christians are slaves in their own country. All these killings happen with the full blessing and planning of Habib Adli [Egypt's interior minister] and his gangsters,” read a comment on the United Copts Web site that represents a group of hardline Copts globally.”

    And then there’s this analysis of what’s going on:

    “Still, not everyone is convinced that Egypt has reached the proverbial tip of the iceberg. Muhammad Youssri, the director at the Cairo-based NGO Tadamon, said that often sporadic violence gets caught up in “the day-to-day struggles of life in the country.”

    He said that while much of the violence recently is most certainly “related” to religion, “it is not religion that drives the violence.” He added, “But our religious institutions are trying to take advantage of a tough situation by pushing agendas that shouldn’t be pushed,” alluding to the monastery building an extension on disputed territory.”

    Amazing! Couldn’t be two more different analyses of what’s happening in Egypt. No matter how bad it may or may not get, some people will NEVER EVER admit that religious bigotry is starting to run rampant in Egypt. They just can’t and won’t – and the cycle continues.

    Has anyone EVER heard a gang of Christians attacking and burning a mosque or abducting Sheiks?? Egypt would erupt like a volcano.

    Reply
  2. me
    June 2, 2008 at 4:23 pm

    following this and the recent post: http://www.sandmonkey.org/2008/05/29/conjuring-up-the-secterian-demon/ plus the Alex shooting and the Minya monastery drama, it makes me wonder…

    What makes me frighten are the apocalyptic fears on one side and ‘so what’ attitude on the other. Why aren’t these acts of violence condemned, why do we reason it? Violence always finds a victim, today a Copt, tomorrow a woman, a child, a neighbor because his eyes are green, her thoughts too loud. And because we are all different, we should all wake up and fight violence, intolerance, ignorance from the start. Today it’s ‘them’, but tomorrow any of us can be the victim.

    Reply
  3. tedders
    June 2, 2008 at 7:18 pm

    Hey Modern Pharaoh, don’t shoot the messenger!

    Reply
  4. tedders
    June 2, 2008 at 7:49 pm

    Modern Pharaoh, I had a chance to visit your site. It’s great! I agree with you 100% with the thought’s you express.

    Reply
  5. EgyPeter
    June 2, 2008 at 8:26 pm

    Yes, I agree. He may even be harsher on the Islamists than me, :) lol. Just not so sure why so harsh with SM. After all, aren’t we all sorta in the same boat? I’m pretty sure we’re after the same thing..

    Reply
  6. tedders
    June 2, 2008 at 9:02 pm

    Maybe he missed the, “extremely cynical, snarky, pro-US, secular, libertarian, disgruntled sandmonkey” part :) !!

    I’m sure we’re all after the same thing too!

    Reply
  7. CarpetCaptain
    June 2, 2008 at 11:27 pm

    The other coverup i read was that the store owner was a loan shark. That made as much sense as any of the above. My guess is that if he was lending money for exorbinant interest he would’ve had the bodyguards and the proper security. Lets face it I dont see a long line of people lining up to pay back money that they borrowed at 5 points a week.

    What I find really laughable is the Copts living in Egypt or what i personally refer to as Stockholm Syndrome Copts. Most of them in private will bitch and complain about the level of discrimination and bigotry but in public will sing the line of “we’re all brothers and there’s no discrimination”

    I don’t know how anybody in their right mind can ignore it. Al Azhar is gov’t funded yet Copts are not allowed in it. No Copts hold senior positions in the army or police and are definitely forbidden anywhere near SS. No Copt governors, almost none in the diplomatic field, heads of governate police (modeer amn) or heads of univ. Most of the lucrative medical fields (ob.gyn, cardiology, cardio thoracic surgery and even pediatrics) prohibit copts out and out. They can’t build churches and need a presidential decree to do so and when its granted construction is held back by the governor and local SS. When that fails they resort to inciting the local mobs.

    BUT we all know there’s no bigotry or discrimination…..GAG ME!

    Reply
  8. Rick
    June 3, 2008 at 12:18 am

    No one’s saying that egypt’s coptic minority is treated perfectly, (it is in fact extremely rare than a minority in any homogenous society is treated with full equality), however, the solution to this problem does not lie in getting outside/foriegn elements involved, which would only serve to further divide the egyptians. We need to stand together as Egyptians against injustices carried out against any of our citizens (regardless of religion) and help bring attention to these things from within rather from without. We also need to eliminate elements of our society that would seek to divide us (extreme muslim or christian advocates) to ensure that incidents like these don’t get played up.

    Reply
  9. EgyPeter
    June 3, 2008 at 12:47 am

    Captain, you must be one of those far right wing Ziono-Ameri-Copt! :)

    “What I find really laughable is the Copts living in Egypt or what i personally refer to as Stockholm Syndrome Copts. Most of them in private will bitch and complain about the level of discrimination and bigotry but in public will sing the line of “we’re all brothers and there’s no discrimination”

    I didn’t even know these types existed until I came to this blog a few years back. And, yes, they are a strange lot. Just doesn’t make any sense. How do you expect to affect change if you refuse to talk about it, let alone, fight for it??

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  10. Modern Pharaoh
    June 3, 2008 at 7:41 am

    Wow, look Egypeter, you found yourself another little Douchebag buddy, now you guys can gather up and sing “Zalamo” together…. captain i didn’t know we had SS soldiers in Egypt thats job was to fight copts or stop their churches from being built….come to Alexandria and see how many churches are being fully renovated and look BEAUTIFUL right now, some new ones are getting built, there are churches everwhere i go!

    Believe me, they need to have the smae decree for Mosques, any person now will build a mosque, ANYWHERE, in a small apartment ect…put a HUGE loud speaker, and the person calling to prayer will not even have a good harmounious voice, and crackling and , and , and so many things…As a Muslim i see how many other Muslims get tired of the loud speakers and the horrible voices, but unfortunatley no one dares say anything!

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  11. MaGdee
    June 3, 2008 at 12:17 pm

    “We also need to eliminate elements of our society that would seek to divide us (extreme muslim or christian advocates) to ensure that incidents like these don’t get played up.”

    The point of comparing extreme musilms to christian advocates in Egypt is too absurd to a sickening level! Simply because the first group is trying to eliminate Christians and the second group is trying to stop that from happening… how can you put the two groups in the same freakin’ basket??
    As far as I’m concerned the only people who are trying to divide us are the Islamic fundmentalists who are trying to force their crazy shari’a laws!

    Reply
  12. EgyPeter
    June 3, 2008 at 4:47 pm

    MaGdee – :)

    Reply
  13. Modern Pharaoh
    June 3, 2008 at 6:37 pm

    Ouf..even though i keep saying that Extremists in EVERY RELIGION are all biggots and dangerous..i must AGREE with MAGED!

    Its really time that Normal Muslims STAND UP to those extremist idiots! I have been wanting to make banners and posters and so on to hang all over EGYPT, like Anti-Extremist Bearded Nikabi Anarchy Style campaign all over Egypt…

    There are SO MANY Secular Muslims all over Egypt, if we ALL banded together and actually STOOD UP to the biggots and had some kind of Campaign and peacful Demonstration i think we could at least make a small difference…

    Reply
  14. Rick
    June 3, 2008 at 7:30 pm

    In writing my previous comment i wasn’t refferring to, nor comparing muslim and christian fundamentalists, (neither of which i particularly like), i was comparing muslim ADVOCATES (not extremists) and chirstian advocates, both of whom constantly seem to be spreading worries about mass muslim and chiristian conversions, secret american-coptic and muslim-saudi alliances, and other ridiculous rumours. While there may be copts strongly alligned with america and mosques funded by saudi arabia, these represent the great minority of BOTH christians and muslims, and as such, these accusations and rumours cause more sectarian strife then they solve. I applaud and support anyone who champions the rights of egyptian christians, however there is a right and wrong way to do so. We should focus on uniting muslim and christian egyptians against fundamentalist forces rather than dividing them with inflammatory language and over-defensiveness. I think everyone on this page wants to see an egypt defined by a secular, nationalist government, however the first step to take is to stop identifying ourselves as muslims or christians first, and simply see ourselves as egyptians. I stand against all atrocities against copts not because they are christian or because their attackers are muslim, but because they are Egyptians who have been wronged, and as such, it is our duty as their fellow countrymen to get them justice.

    Reply
  15. CarpetCaptain
    June 3, 2008 at 10:38 pm

    Peter you’re wrong! I’m one of those far right wing Ziono-Canadian Copts :D

    Magdee I agree with you, this argument that there are extreme elements on both sides is proposterous. I don’t know of any incidents of Copts from abroad or locally going out and attacking muslim places of worship, work, education or even religious symbols. It just does not happen. To equate the Copts that are speaking out against a campaign to exterminate them with those executing it is just plain old ridiculous. Just as ridiculous as saying that the Copts in Egypt are suffering because of what the Copts abroad say and do.

    Rick if you actually believe that there’s going to be any change from within I have a bridge for sale my friend. The only change we’ve all seen in the past 20 years is to the worse. The current regime is just as bad as its opposition. Mubarak is on the take from the Saudis just as much as the Ikhwan ad all the dirt bag splinter groups they support.

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  16. Twosret
    June 3, 2008 at 10:50 pm

    I really wish I have the time but I don’t :( I’m too busy mourning Yves Saint Laurent “sarcasm off”

    Reply
  17. CarpetCaptain
    June 3, 2008 at 11:23 pm

    Twosret I’ve taken the last two days off to mourn I hope that I dont slide into a full blown depression! God i’m gonna miss the fruit loop.

    Reply
  18. MaGdee
    June 4, 2008 at 7:29 am

    “Rick if you actually believe that there’s going to be any change from within I have a bridge for sale my friend.”

    This is where we differ, change from within is a MUST and its got no other alternatives. (unless you care to share some successful alternatives that you have in mind). I take it by this statement you’re an advocate for foreign interference in Egypt which can only bring further catastrophe to this nation than it already have. And you have great examples of that in Lebanon and Iraq.
    Imagine if a complete stranger barge into your house holding a mirror and yells at you “take look at yourself you are fuckin’ mess do something about it” would you listen to him? hell no you will throw him out and you will immeaditely take a very defensive stance… it’s a natural psycholgical reaction even if you know that he’s right, but if a sibling or relative came up to you and explained to you the same and telling you that there’s no chick will ever consider looking at you in such shape… you will react postively!
    It’s the same case here in Egypt forcing change from outside… in the form of democracy or reforming Islam will only backfire… and it will give more solid ground to the current regime and the fundmentalists who stirve on these things in order to weave conspiracy theories of foreign plans against the nation and Islam… just to win the people’s heart and mentally arm the masses!
    I read the funniest thing about a seminar for something like reforming women staus in Islamic societies, with key speakers: Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Wafaa Sultan, and Daniel Pipes! Yep, you leave it to two athiests, and a Jewish male to reform Islamic societies! The message is maybe sweet but you picked up the wrong fuckin’ messengers. Don’t get me wrong… I love the shocking techniques you need to shock people in order for them to wake up from a long induced coma… but a shock delievered by the wrong hands could turn into a slap in the face and you know very well that Muslims don’t turn the other cheek!
    I’m ready to take the job and reform Islam and Egypt from inside just forge me some credentials and give me a suitable budget :D

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  19. Mo
    June 4, 2008 at 2:57 pm

    The bigotry is there on both sides, the only difference is that Muslims are in a position to act on their prejudices.

    So to include in one’s arguments statements along the lines of: “You don’t see Copts attacking Muslims.” either as a direct or indirect attempt to claim the moral high ground for the former group is bogus.

    I’m all for speaking out against discrimination, but let’s not kid ourselves, please.

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  20. Mo
    June 4, 2008 at 3:00 pm

    I’m an Egyptian Muslim btw.; letting you guys know so you can decide how much bias I’m harbouring.

    Reply
  21. EgyPeter
    June 4, 2008 at 3:28 pm

    MaGdee – I totally understand what you are saying and it makes sense. But please correct me if I’m wrong, and speaking for myself (and probably ‘Captian’), I’ve NEVER EVER EVER have heard of Egyptian Christians “advocating” for foreign intervention. This is just preposterous! The ONLY thing I hear Egyptian Christians advocate for, home or abroad, is for EQUAL RIGHTS UNDER THE LAW.

    Change must come from within, but what if the only “change” that is on the horizon is change in the wrong direction?? Then what?

    Mo says:

    “So to include in one’s arguments statements along the lines of: “You don’t see Copts attacking Muslims.” either as a direct or indirect attempt to claim the moral high ground for the former group is bogus.”

    No, it’s not. Copts are pacifists. They have never resisted. And they have been pacifists in the face of violence for a looooong time. I mean, aren’t the Palestinians “resisting” with violence in the face of overwhelming odds/numbers? Copts aren’t launching Katusha rockets in Egypt…

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  22. Mo
    June 4, 2008 at 4:57 pm

    Egypeter, I’m assuming you drew an analogy between Copts and Palestinians, not because Egyptian Muslims treat the Copts like Israelis treat Palestinians, but to point out that minorities are capable of resisting if they choose to.

    No wait, Palestinians can hardly be considered a minority either. Hm.

    Well, even if we’re to assume that they are a minority, not in terms of ratio to the overall population but in terms of clout, I still have to point out that that was a careless analogy and doesn’t make the intended point, simply _because_ you can’t draw conclusions from one aspect of their respective situations while dismissing the other.

    The fact that Palestinians choose to resist and the manner in which they choose to do so are not entirely inherent to their character as a people but follow from the nature of Israeli actions. So until Egyptian Muslim conduct mirrors that of the Israelis, you’d be better off trying to formulate better arguments.

    But I won’t take offense, because as said I’m assuming you aren’t under any severe delusions. Again, feel free to re-argue your point.

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  23. EgyPeter
    June 4, 2008 at 5:24 pm

    Mo – My point was not to compare the two, as obviously they are not the same, my point was that Egyptian Christians have not and never will use violence. Ever. There have been many incidents in the past when Egyptian Christians have refused to take arms against their country. So, like I said, Egyptian Christians are inherently pacifists…and I’m talking about their entire 2000 year history, not just the last 1400, as the Roman Emperors and Governors of Alexandria brutalized the Egyptians.

    Look Mo, I’m not silly enough to say that there isn’t idiocy and hatred on both sides. But there seems to a LOT more animosity coming from one side. And is Egypt’s rising conservatism just a coincidence? I think not. We need to get our shit together and stem this divide before it’s too late, and the onus is on the Egyptian Muslim! You all have to build bridges and true friendships with your Egyptian brothers!

    Comments like the ones from the Mehdi Akef where he says, “A Muslim from Malaysia has more authority to govern Egypt than an Egyptian Christian” must not only be admonished but criminalized!!! This line of thinking has gotta go!!

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  24. CarpetCaptain
    June 4, 2008 at 7:24 pm

    “This is where we differ, change from within is a MUST and its got no other alternatives.”

    “correct me if I’m wrong, and speaking for myself (and probably ‘Captian’), I’ve NEVER EVER EVER have heard of Egyptian Christians ………………..“

    Magdee I don’t think we differ here either. I’m not advocating a position of militarily bringing civility or democracy or even food for that matter (as some have to Burma). All i’m saying is that the Copts are not speaking loud enough and therefore not heard from within. Whether thats because they’re passive or have done so for so long and have just given up on trying to change the status quo I don’t know. I do know know that Egypt is a rcipient of foreign aid and are becoming more increasingly dependent on it and I also know that they are a member of several world bodies UN etc etc. Just like Wahabi foreign aid from the gulf is tied to Islamization I believe that Western aid which is multiples of what they receive from the gulf should be tied to their record. Be it human rights, treatment of women, copts, bahaiis or even animals for that matter.

    “So to include in one’s arguments statements along the lines of: “You don’t see Copts attacking Muslims.” either as a direct or indirect attempt to claim the moral high ground for the former group is bogus.”

    Mo the Copts have always been passive as have all PRACTICING Christians in the Middle East. I’ll give you an example; how many Christian suicide bombers have you heard of in Palestine or Iraq even when fighting an “invading army” let alone the senseless killing of their fellow civilian citizens. How many mosques got bombed as a response to the bombing of a dozen or so churches in one day in Baghdad.

    “No wait, Palestinians can hardly be considered a minority either. Hm.”

    I’m assuming that the other of “either” refers to the Copts. Give it a rest, they are a fucking minority and a marginalized one at that. When you need a permission from the president to make any repairs to a place of prayer that makes you a minority and an oppressed one at that. When you respond please spare me the usual bullshit argument that the richest family in Egypt is Copt, that argument holds as much water as a fishing net and should only be made by tunas!

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  25. Rick
    June 4, 2008 at 7:48 pm

    It seems you guys want to attack the symptoms of the problems rather than the root. Why is it we see increasing convservatism in egypt? When egyptians find that they can no longer find prind in a soveriegn government, when the appeal of nationalism becomes meaningless, then they turn to religion to fill the void. Give the egyptians a truly soveriegn government, one that does things in favor of egyptians, and no one else, you will see a turn to secular nationalism. Remember that prominent alquaida members such as al-zawihiri didn’t turn to fundamentalism until after the defeat of 1967, exhibiting the clear correlation between disenfranchisement in the egypitan government, and the adoption of fundamentalist religion as the alternative

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  26. EgyPeter
    June 4, 2008 at 7:57 pm

    “When you respond please spare me the usual bullshit argument that the richest family in Egypt is Copt, that argument holds as much water as a fishing net and should only be made by tunas!”

    Priceless!!

    And every time I hear that tired argument I NEVER EVER hear a PEEP about the Zabaleen living in Mokkatam. Never. Curious, no?

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  27. MaGdee
    June 4, 2008 at 8:25 pm

    “I’ve NEVER EVER EVER have heard of Egyptian Christians “advocating” for foreign intervention. This is just preposterous! The ONLY thing I hear Egyptian Christians advocate for, home or abroad, is for EQUAL RIGHTS UNDER THE LAW”

    I’ve never ever heard it either from “most” Christian groups aborad or here in Egypt I’m just hoping that it would not come to that point ever! I was stating what would happen if we reached that point to what I misunderstood from Carpetcaptain post.

    “Change must come from within, but what if the only “change” that is on the horizon is change in the wrong direction?? Then what?”

    Well I give you that… the most obvious change in the past 30 years is heading toward the wrong direction! But that’s doesn’t mean its the only change on the horizon… we do have secular and liberal force within the population but their problem is that majority of them are educated, selfish and rich that they are elitist in nature… they trapped themselves inside a closed circle! They don’t wanna go out there share their ideology with the rest of the masses… meanwhile Ikhawanists are not shying away from getting down and dirty to recruit the poor, ignorant and the misfortune… they form the backbone of ikhwan! Take it away from them and you will be left with a just a bunch of power hungry bearded fucks who pose no threat that couldn’t be dealt with!

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  28. EgyPeter
    June 4, 2008 at 11:52 pm

    I don’t think you have too much to worry about MaGdee. I don’t think America is gonna come knocking on Egypt’s door anytime soon :) America would probably cut the 2 billion in aid before they came to liberate the Copts :) And I’ve have never heard of any Copt calling for such nonsense…

    But you’re right. When you combine the recruitment efforts of the Ikhwan amongst the poor and what Muburak has done to all liberal/secular opposition over the years…well, it’s no wonder we don’t have too many reasonable political options these days.

    I feel the only thing that can save Egypt these days is for a TRUE SECULAR dictator to come to power..a la Kemal Ataturk. I was hoping to God that Ayman Nour was that guy…and we all know how that ended.

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  29. CarpetCaptain
    June 5, 2008 at 3:59 am

    “I feel the only thing that can save Egypt these days is for a TRUE SECULAR dictator to come to power..a la Kemal Ataturk. I was hoping to God that Ayman Nour was that guy…and we all know how that ended.”

    He ended up being a piece of shit just like the rest of them. Do you remember him going to see Mahdi Akef and almost begging for his blessing?

    I do second the idea of a SECULAR dictator. Democracy would be a disaster in Egypt. The country would end up getting ruled by the absolute lowest common denominator. That and the part I don’t get is if the Ikhwan is referred to as the “outlawed organization” why are they still able to run in union elections and for student unions?

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  30. MaGdee
    June 5, 2008 at 6:09 am

    “I feel the only thing that can save Egypt these days is for a TRUE SECULAR dictator to come to power..a la Kemal Ataturk. I was hoping to God that Ayman Nour was that guy…and we all know how that ended”

    That’s exactly what can save Egypt! a true-secular-uncorrupted dictator, someone who have the guts to grab the current constitution, piss all over article 2, rips it apart and then make way for a democratic secular constitution… although the light-minded will tell you are replacing one dicatator with another. Ayman Nour was in no way that guy, I’m not saying that he’s a bad guy, but he was way too soft on the Islamists and avoided confronting them in any occasion but in fact he made few alliances with them but Ikhawan with their treacherous nature never backed him up… plus he did have a shady past which the regime exploited very well… but what we really need is someone with a military background who is not power hungry but wants to have a secular civil democracy on his immeadiate plans for Egypt (it’s like asking for a miracle)… but its a VITAL prequalification that he exerts strong control over the army… since you don’t want in a couple of years a new gang of freedom officers with a coup d’etat… and instead of having socialist pan-arab agenda it will be an Islamist one! The Mubarakian regime is pretty clever in their the army strategies by monitoring any religious activities going on and cut it away quick…he did learn from Sadat’s mistake. From the of my short army service days few years ago… put aside the Quran recital contests on religious holidays, I can pretty much assure you that the Military is most secular governmental institution in Egypt.

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  31. EgyPeter
    June 5, 2008 at 4:45 pm

    Very interesting, MaGdee. I never really thought Nour was Ataturk, but I was just excited to see a secular leader, ANY secular leader, come to the front.

    Anyway, I’d be interested in your thoughts on Jimmy Muburak. I’m well aware most of Egypt hates the whole family but I wonder if he’s not the worst option these days. He’s NOT from the military which, as you said, is of extreme importance but he seems to have a strong economic background and was educated in the West. And he definitely hates the Ikhwan. I’m just not sure how he’s too different from the status quo…but if it’s between him and Mehdi Akef, the choice seems pretty simple. Well, at least until that ‘third option’ that everyone is dreaming about pops up.

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  32. Modern Pharaoh
    June 5, 2008 at 9:17 pm

    So i just got some inside info, but i’m sure you hardliners won’t believe what i say!

    The Zeitouna shooting: in the late 80′s Fanatical groups did attack Copt jewelers and stole money from them to finance their operations. This shooting in Zeitouna was as far as all info indicates a botched robbery, or maybe revenge, either way it had nothing to do with Muslim VS Copt…I know no matter what is said the hardliner AMERICAN COPTS especially won’t believe what anyone says..even if you bring the shooters and get confessions and even video tape you guys won’t believe it!

    The other violence at the Church in upper Egypt: LAND, Church wants to extend its wall, Falaheen don’t want, and say its going to interfer with their crops..you tell me what you think? We all know *well not the American copts because they are American and not even Egyptians* how the falaheen are with LAND!

    STOP TRYING TO DIVIDE US!!! Egypt is not COPT/MUSLIM! The Islamist extremist fundementalists hate Muslims such as myself as much as they hate a Copt, they hate anyone who is NOT LIKE THEM, BEARD/NIKAB/ANGRY ..

    American Copts need to give it a break, and i hate to bring this up, but in any society where people are persecuted by the govt and so on, there is NO WAY THEY WOULD HOLD ANY INFLUENCIAL POSITIONS, or even beable to Conduct business in the manner copts conduct it here…and dno’t say this means nothing, because definitley DOES!!

    The American Copts are the ones who made a Coptic Flag in 2005, a clear sign they are trying to divide us Egyptians!! Even Egyptian Copts shunned and don’t approve of this Flag!

    Egypts Goverment and people are not divided as you try to say, The only people who are nut bags are the Islamic Extremists, and like i said, THEY LIKE NO ONE, Normal MUSLIMS as well as COPTS!

    Does what i say mean THERE IS NOT A PROBLEM AT ALL? NO, it means there is a problem, the minority is a bit discriminated against like anywhere, and they will always feel this way! But remember in Egypt Normal Muslims are also becoming a minority..BUT we the Moderate Muslims/COPTS are who run the country, the others can take bilgazma el adima!

    El Hilal wel Saleeb FOREVER IN EGYPT!! “Cresent/Cross FOREVER IN EGYPT!

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  33. tedders
    June 6, 2008 at 12:17 am

    I believe you MP, but surely you can understand why American Egyptian Copts are sensitive to Muslim on Copt violence.

    Egypt is not COPT/MUSLIM! The Islamist extremist fundementalists hate Muslims such as myself as much as they hate a Copt, they hate anyone who is NOT LIKE THEM, BEARD/NIKAB/ANGRY ..”

    Makes perfect sense to me and most Copts I would think!

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  34. EgyPeter
    June 6, 2008 at 1:22 am

    I hear you MP, I just don’t know why you’re so harsh.

    If you really believe what you say and the Islamists hate you as much as Christians, which is totally true…then you should be every American Copt’s ally! Aren’t we ultimately advocating the same exact thing?? The methods may be different but the goal is the same!

    Reply
  35. Modern Pharaoh
    June 6, 2008 at 8:26 am

    No Egypeter, because you guys take it to a different level! You give all Egyptians a bad name and try to act like Egypt is Iraq where Sunnis/Shias kill one another! You guys are very fundementalist in your thought process..and i’m sure if i was in your town in the USA, you and your buddies probably wouldn’t even consider me an Egyptian like you because i’m not a copt!

    Reply
  36. EgyPeter
    June 6, 2008 at 2:05 pm

    Right, cuz I ONLY befriend Copts.

    I talk about building friendships, partnerships and bridges with Muslims. I realize that there is NO chance for reform in Egypt without moderate Muslims joining hand in hand with Christians. I believe ALL non-fundamental voices must join together to defeat the intolerant ideologies of the Ikhwan!

    And then you drop this one:

    “and i’m sure if i was in your town in the USA, you and your buddies probably wouldn’t even consider me an Egyptian like you because i’m not a copt!”

    Well, then has everything I’ve said to you has been vain?!

    Reply
  37. Modern Pharaoh
    June 7, 2008 at 11:22 pm

    Egypeter Er7amna ba2a, when you come to Egypt then Talk! Your not here and you haven’t even been to Egypt in 4 years, and the last time you were here, you were probably here for a month at most!!

    If you wanna make a difference and be a big shot then come here. now to what happened to me today at Sporting club.

    Tarek Drives into Sporting Club, all looks nice, people look nice just like the ol’ sporting club.

    I walk to the Jardin D”enfants to meet one of my friends who had her kids there..i see a monakaba and i say “They even let you into Sporting Club” She says SO WHAT, i say GET OUT OF HERE, You are a disgrace to Islam, you people have no respect to Yourselves.

    She calls Security, they take me to the office, security tells me this happens alot at sporting with the monakabat, that many people say things to them..i leave and nothing happens!

    (I really almost can’t help myself around those freaking Black Ghosts)

    Reply
  38. CarpetCaptain
    June 8, 2008 at 4:56 am

    “So i just got some inside info, but i’m sure ”

    What is the inside info? You’re regurgetating the official bullshit gov’t line.

    “This shooting in Zeitouna was as far as all info indicates a botched robbery, or maybe revenge, ”

    Or maybe because Santa was sleeping with the thieves’ sister who was hooking on the side too. Its a possibility no?

    “The other violence at the Church in upper Egypt: LAND, Church wants to extend its wall, Falaheen don’t want, and say its going to interfer with their crops”

    It wasnt a Church it was a Monastery, in the middle of THE FUCKING DESERT ie no crops at issue. If it was a simple land dispute they wouldn’t have gone as far as kidnapping 3 monks and torturing them overnight. This is purely a hateful sadistic crime by any Egyptian standard copt or muslim. BTW dont even start the you dont know farmers and land bullshit with me, i know them too well.

    “The American Copts are the ones who made a Coptic Flag in 2005″

    Thats a ridiculous generalization almost like saying all muslims are terrorists. I would never want to split up the country, Egypt is a whole and is not subject to subdividing.

    “the minority is a bit discriminated ”

    A bit discriminated against is like a bit pregnant, you either are or aren’t. I’d submit that the Copts are pretty screwed over and are close to 1400 years pregnant. The discrimation started with the first bedouin invasions and ranged from cutting off tongues for speaking their mother language to wearing a heavy cross that led t bone bruising and hence the filthy expression “blue bone or adma zaraa’” and down the line to dismounting their donkey in the preence of one of the new muslim masters to paying protection taxes like the mafia imposes. BTW is the mass murder of 21 people in Al Kosheh sectarian or not? Why was not one person convicted of any of those murdered? Have you seen the pictures of how they were butchered? Does that also fall under the category of little bit pregnant errrr i meant discriminated against or does that meet the burden of good ol’ new years ethnic cleansing…….

    “BUT we the Moderate Muslims/COPTS are who run the country, the others can take bilgazma el adima! ”

    So the non passive Copts are called moderate and those that ask for their rights in return for continuing to fulfill their obligations are not moderate? Give your head a shake and whe you’re done take off your shoe and beat yoursef bloody with it, who knows it might knock some sense into you.

    By the way I go to Egypt twice a year the last time was 4 months ago and the next is in a few weeks.

    “i’m sure if i was in your town in the USA, you and your buddies probably wouldn’t even consider me an Egyptian like you because i’m not a copt!”

    I’m on my way out to go pick up an Egyptian buddy of mine (who happens to be muslim) and go bar hopping. So spare me and wish us luck ;)

    Reply
  39. EgyPeter
    June 8, 2008 at 7:07 pm

    Captain – YOU, my friend, ARE MONEY!!!!

    Hope you had fun last night!!! I was out bar hopping with my Egyptian buddies as well…

    You really nailed it with that last post of yours!

    Reply
  40. CarpetCaptain
    June 8, 2008 at 7:25 pm

    “Captain – YOU, my friend, ARE MONEY!!!!”

    Thanks Bro!

    Had a blast! Great Success as Borat would say :)

    How did you guys make out? and passionately isnt an answer…hahahahahah

    Reply
  41. EgyPeter
    June 8, 2008 at 8:55 pm

    Hey Captain, how can I get a hold of you?

    Reply
  42. EgyPeter
    June 8, 2008 at 9:08 pm

    Hey MP – The Pope doesn’t seem to be buying that lame “land dispute” argument that you seem to be espousing…

    Reply
  43. CarpetCaptain
    June 8, 2008 at 11:49 pm

    CarpetCaptain@live.ca ;) Thanks for the link Peter.

    MP I have some not so inside info. too :

    ““The attacks began 150 meters away from the monastery, and they got closer and closer until they were next to the monastery where the monks were kidnapped and violently tortured. They were pressured to renounce their religion by spitting on the cross. When they refused, they were beaten.

    They were then asked to declare the Islamic shahada [There is no God but Allah and Mohamed is his Prophet] and when they refused, they beat them again,” said the Pope.”

    Reply
  44. EgyPeter
    June 9, 2008 at 1:22 am

    Sounds like a “land dispute” to me…

    Reply
  45. CarpetCaptain
    June 9, 2008 at 1:55 am

    BTW peter feel free to email me.

    Reply
  46. Modern Pharaoh
    June 9, 2008 at 5:35 pm

    lol@ egypeters last “sounds like a land dispute to me”

    What can i say guys, i’m so freaking frustrated, all day i’m yelling at people with beards and nikabis and trying to talk to people, i think i’m ready to throw in the towel, i don’t know what to say!

    All I can say is that this all sucks, and is horrible for our country, i don’t know where these people get their fanatical ideas from, I read the Quran and it never says Jews or Christians are Kafirs…even the parts that are harsh say “Many of them are non-believers but some are” So there is NO part that says all christians or even jews are KAFIRS!

    NO part about a NIKAB and a woman covering herself like this..no part about growing a beard…NONE OF THIS , NONE OF IT!

    and its so hard for me to talk to those freaking idiots because they have a one track mind!

    As long as Normal non fanatical Muslims and Copts stay quite WE WILL NEVER Solve this problem and it will get worse!

    I’ve said it before, its time to stand up to radicalism, MAKING POSTERS, T-SHIRTS, BANNERS and hanging them in the street is a start, getting exposure NOT BEING SCARED TO TELLL THEM THEY ARE WRONG!

    Reply
  47. Roman Kalik
    June 9, 2008 at 9:40 pm

    Modern Pharaoh, from my various discussions with Muslims, I have reached the following conclusions, at least for now:

    1. Traditional Sunni Islam views Jews and Christians as “People of the Book”, pre-Muslim monotheists who had either forgotten or mistakenly corrupted their texts, thus moving away from the True Path (ergo, Islam), but still being close enough to it to be treated with respect.

    2. The main negative aspects traditional Sunni Islam puts on Jews and Christians is to avoid letting them teach Muslims, so as to not let “corrupted” Christian and Jewish concepts into the Muslim mainstream teachings of the faith.

    3. Further, traditional Sunni Islam supports encouraging Jews and Christians to “Return to the True Path”, but only through discourse and mixed marriages. Forced conversion is not a path one applies to people already within a hairs’ breadth from your morals and beliefs, apparently.

    4. Sunni Islam further placed Jews and Christians in the position of second-rate citizens by religious edict, making their lives somewhat uncomfortable – mainly to support 2.

    None of the above prevents Muslim society from evolving to accepting minorities fully – many Muslim societies have actually moved on already, be it during the time of the Ottoman Empire or in Morocco today. Pre-Soviet Islam in Asia is also worth mentioning. But that said, the above “guidelines” have been broken on numerous occasions over the past 1000 years, and the recent trends are not new – they’re simply gathering momentum due to money being in the wrong hands (curse the day when the family Al-Saud struck oil), and various forms of region-wide oppression leading to the rise of “revolutionary” and “pure” movements (see Iran as the prime example of this trend*).

    *It is worth mentioning that Iran is not Sunni, so not the best parallel to the largely Sunni region. It is further worth noting that Shi’a Islam, at least in Iran, is a great deal more centralized than Sunni Islam ever was – Shi’a Islam, in this sense, is similar to the Catholic Church, whereas the semi-chaotic Sunni Islam of today does not conform to any semblance of central guidance – which leads to trouble.

    Reply
  48. CLEAN
    June 10, 2008 at 8:40 am

    OMG God you almost had me there but with your last 3 words you struck the wrong cord. WHICH LEADS TO TROUBLE, and the catholic Church and The Ayatollah are not trouble. BUT Judaism and Sunni Islam and protestants are all chopped liver. Roman (CATHOLIC/JUDAS) Kalik — NO COMMENT!

    Reply
  49. Roman Kalik
    June 10, 2008 at 10:21 am

    Your point, Mr… Clean? Here and now, it does lead to trouble. I’m usually a great fan of not having a rigid organizational framework around a religion (I’m Jewish – there are approximately as many views and opinions on the faith as there are Jews, and the debates can be quite good, I assure you).

    The Ayatollahs are also trouble, but the rigid framework of Shi’a Islam today doesn’t seem to create hundreds and thousands of suicide bombers, conflicting suicidal doctrines, and so on and so forth. Sunni Islam today suffers from not having an actual agreed red line – so anyone literate enough to be an Imam becomes a local authority on everything and anything. Including on where people should go to fight some Great Enemy of Islam.

    Iranian Shi’a Islam, on the other hand, suffers from a different set of issues – organizational corruption on every level (thus leaving ordinary members of the faith angry), the stifling of any form of debate and keeping any “unfavorable” members of the clergy on the fringes of society, the rise of the strictest and most violent religious leaders to positions of power due to institutional favorism and political manipulation… in short, Iranian Shi’a Islam suffers from the exact same ailments of the Catholic Church during the Middle Ages. Anyone who thinks too much is branded a traitor to the faith.

    Iranian Shi’a Islam has become too rigid, too easy to bend to political lines through the central framework, and too malleable by the worst people reaching the highest positions in among the clergy – where they then become above reproach, more than mere men.

    Shi’a extremism may become more dangerous in the future, but only time will tell.

    Sunni Islam, though, suffers today from a different issue. Having lost most, if not all, of its central guidelines to political institutions given a religious mantle like the Ottoman Empire, Sunni Islam lacks reference points. Thus, some rush to fill that void – be it the new money of Al-Saud, or attempts to reforge pale imitations of the past in the vein of the Muslim Brotherhood and its Palestinian child, Hamas. Others still rush to plug in the holes – and pretty much anything goes, with the worst of the fringe elements prospering in the political realities of our wonderful region.

    Reply
  50. Mo
    June 10, 2008 at 2:03 pm

    Carpet Captain (#25)

    - Your underlying argument seems to be: “Copts are inherently better than Muslims.” or maybe “PRACTICING Copts are inherently better than PRACTICING Muslims.”

    Normally I would discuss this at length, given that I wholeheartedly disagree with you, but I’ve been having a bad day and I can’t really be bothered. You think whatever you want to think and I’ll do the same.

    - Wrong assumption. ‘The other of “either”‘ refers to the Egyptian Muslims not treating Copts as do the Israelis the Palestinians. Should have been clear, at the very latest by the next paragraph.

    Reply
  51. CLEAN
    June 10, 2008 at 7:43 pm

    Real Muslims want you all (Jew’s, Christians) to be just as happy as we wish to be as long as you do not infringe, intrude or interfere with our beliefs. One of our beliefs is that if any Muslim community is attacked (as was the case with Haggana in 1948) then we must not rest until the aggressor ceases and the Muslim community is liberated.

    Even if that Muslim country due to the extreme provocation has dismantled itself from the Muslim moral code of ethics, due to it being in a state of mayhem, perpetuating rash and evil forms of retaliation, including cowardice, unacceptable corruption add infinitum, this does not abrogate the fact that the community must be liberated under the doctrine of Islam.

    Israel knows this but chooses to continue to play the upper hand. Trust me, if Jews of Israel knew what was good for them they would back of and kiss the feet of all Palestinians they had harmed instead of playing the ancient hand of eternal struggle and sorrow.

    If and after Israel would do this and the Palestinians do not accept, then Islam will turn their back on whats left of the occupied palestine. But since that day has not come yet, we are still at a stand off.

    Israel knows there is no other way because they know Islam very well and they know that NOTHING ELSE will work.

    Therefore Israel does not want peace. They want a fight!

    And a fight they will be a getting, never mind the weak ass Hamas or Iran, but the unequated demon inside every silent believer in justice!

    Time is the greatest weapon of All!

    Reply
  52. Roman Kalik
    June 10, 2008 at 9:01 pm

    One of our beliefs is that if any Muslim community is attacked (as was the case with Haggana in 1948) then we must not rest until the aggressor ceases and the Muslim community is liberated.

    Are Palestinians now only Muslim? Interesting. Further, has history now only begun in 1948? Read up on 1929 when you get the chance, to name one interesting year. There’s much more beyond that, of course, but that year in particular might just show you that history is never that simple. Or one-sided.

    You also seem to possess a single-minded definition of “aggressor”, “liberation”, and an endless obsession with forcing reality to conform to your definitions of the aforementioned.

    Even if that Muslim country due to the extreme provocation has dismantled itself from the Muslim moral code of ethics, due to it being in a state of mayhem, perpetuating rash and evil forms of retaliation, including cowardice, unacceptable corruption add infinitum, this does not abrogate the fact that the community must be liberated under the doctrine of Islam.

    Interesting. So dismantling oneself from the Muslim moral code of ethics is forever a matter of external, non-Muslim, pressure? Muslims themselves do no wrong of their own mind and decision? Muslims are then above reproach, perfect unless forced and sullied by “aggressors”?

    By the way, have you yet noticed how your personal “liberation” doctrine refuses any form of compromise or dialog until your “aggressor” enemy surrenders?

    Israel knows this but chooses to continue to play the upper hand. Trust me, if Jews of Israel knew what was good for them they would back of and kiss the feet of all Palestinians they had harmed instead of playing the ancient hand of eternal struggle and sorrow.

    I see. So it’s the *Jews* who play at eternal conflict because the *Muslims* are hardwired to respond in a single manner, and a single violent manner alone, and the Jews must understand and surrender to this reality of Muslim rigid thought (or perfection, as you would seem to take it). I applaud you, mate, you make my arguments for me.

    If and after Israel would do this and the Palestinians do not accept, then Islam will turn their back on whats left of the occupied palestine. But since that day has not come yet, we are still at a stand off.

    So, let’s go though this again… If and when the Jews of Israel put themselves entirely at the mercy of the Palestinians, and if and when the Palestinian Muslims do not take the “honorable” path and allow the Jews to live their lives in peace (possibly as some “protected minority” under Islamic rule), the Islamic nation as a whole will turn its collective back against them?

    So, to sum it up, if the Jews give Palestinian Muslims a chance to massacre them entirely or drive them away, and if they act on that chance, only *then* will the Islamic world stop supporting them? You know… that may very well be too late for us Israeli Jews, but thanks for letting me know! We value your contributions to peaceful endeavors!

    It’s only a small mercy, truly small as it may be, that you are merely a single speck in the Islamic world. And that your hardwired opinions of Islam aren’t exactly the way things are, and that many Muslims are capable of shaking off preconceived notions.

    Therefore Israel does not want peace. They want a fight!

    Um, no. Israel wants to live, dear. Your option involves placing our heads at the headman’s block and praying really, really hard that he will be merciful and won’t chop away.

    I think I’ll take the alternative: waiting for people willing to talk things over, see each others’ views and requirements clearly, and attempt to reach a compromise that is good enough for both sides.

    The latter option might just involve us staying alive.

    Time is the greatest weapon of All!

    Yes, yes. And if every Muslims poured a bucket of water on Israel, it would… most likely solve all our water issues. Might save up on the desalination plant expenses. Well, get to it, then! :-D

    Reply
  53. CarpetCaptain
    June 10, 2008 at 10:52 pm

    “- Your underlying argument seems to be: “Copts are inherently better than Muslims.” or maybe “PRACTICING Copts are inherently better than PRACTICING Muslims.””

    That was never my intent or implication. My point is that the Christians are highly unlikely to resort to violence because of their passive nature and teachings such as turn the other cheek while Muslims are more likely to be the aggresors because of teachings within their religion.

    You’re welcome to draw your own conclusions of better or worse but I merely stated a fact.

    Reply
  54. CLEAN
    June 10, 2008 at 11:18 pm

    No, you made my day and made my argument for me indeed!

    Spoken like a champion son of Canaan and Aaron.

    Superior to us low IQ Arabs, poisoned by our inferior religion.

    But you…. ,

    Spoken like a true anarchist, professional liar, lobbyist, twisting words around and misleading the reader of your drivle into convulsions like that from a black widows venom.

    Holly. Shit…and this type of superior [work (shit) ethic] which you as a Jew embrace which is erroneous is no doubt from God because like I said, HOLLY SHIT!

    I give credit when credit is due and you guys are the epitome of treacherous and slithering misleading. Sorry to be antisemy,.,whatever but no wonder lots of people in history have had a problem with your type. I mean that really.

    So crooked and deformed at the rib indeed.

    I said if Israel concedes it has done wrong and gets off the political band wagon and makes concessions there will be peace, but since both sides hold firm, you accuse the palestinians and Muslims of wanting only them and us to be superior.

    You know what, try and keep the land, please do, it is yours after all, right?

    But if you would read the last line of my last post then you will know that debate is not an option with such an attitude as yours.

    Please don’t forget, that the Holocaust survivors and every other Jew killed will roll over in their grave if you give up one inch of land.

    Reply
  55. Roman Kalik
    June 11, 2008 at 8:13 am

    Superior to us low IQ Arabs, poisoned by our inferior religion.

    No, your religion isn’t inferior, and *your* low IQ has nothing to do with your lineage.

    The fact is, you debase your religion with your fanatical zeal, your simplistic interpretations, and your constant offensive stance.

    And again, it’s a small mercy that there’s more to Islam and Muslims than you.

    I said if Israel concedes it has done wrong and gets off the political band wagon and makes concessions there will be peace, but since both sides hold firm, you accuse the palestinians and Muslims of wanting only them and us to be superior.

    No, that’s not what you said. Go back and actually read what you said. From your point of view, over dozens of posts, it appears that the entirety of conflict around here is based on Israel being to blame forever and ever, and on evil Zionist liars running around trying to cover it up.

    But if you would read the last line of my last post then you will know that debate is not an option with such an attitude as yours.

    The last line of your last post said that time is the greatest weapon of all. This is often brought up by idiots like you in the ME when they want to compare Israel to the Crusader Kingdoms, and how if you just wait long enough your evil conquering enemies will disappear in a flash of Divine Justice.

    And I’m the one with the attitude problem, eh?

    Please don’t forget, that the Holocaust survivors and every other Jew killed will roll over in their grave if you give up one inch of land.

    We’ve given up quite a lot of inches over the year. We just like actually having concrete assurances regarding them – you know, like Sadat was capable of giving.

    But then, Sadat was a mature individual, capable of seeing that there’s more than one side, and that people on the *other* side are also people. You’re not that kind of person. And most likely never will be.

    Reply
  56. This is for Ced
    June 11, 2008 at 1:54 pm

    And thank God for that, mough said, bye!

    I’m thru dance’n the twist with ya’ll!

    Reply

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