Ghaza…again..

Bloodshed in Ghaza…again. Rockets launched from both sides….again. Round 69474932 of the grandsons of Isaac vs. the grandsons of Ishmael…again. And again, no end in sight..again and again and again.

Welcome to Middle-east people, where we make excellent rugs and most fantastic death, all for political gain. Hamas wanted to be relevant again, wanted the arab world to support it, and has learned the lessons of Hezbollah well. Provoke, get your people slaughtered, get recognition and sympathy and power. Who is to question your authority now that you are the one standing in the line of fire? Elections you say coming up? Who will oppose you now? We all have to band together in times of crisis, no? 

And on the Israeli side, the same lesson applies: Hey, wanna be the Prime Minister in the next elections? Attack Ghaza. In recent memory, not a single election for PM has taken place before the candidates party has launched some sort of Attack on Ghaza. It's like tradition, you see, for good luck. Congratulations Livni, you might just beat Netenyaho for the big seat.

But..but..you will say..the Palestinians are shooting rockets at our people…The Israelis are shooting rockets at our people..Blood and death and mayhem and destruction and CRY HAVOC WHY DON'T YOU? The dogs of war have been unleashed, the cheerleaders are all in place ready to cheer, with escalation being the word on everybody's tongue. All the while, the peaceniks are lamenting the lost peace, and how if only Labor wins, there might be a chance, all the while the minister of defense is mr. Labor leader himself. All the while the Fatah supporters are crying, see what Hamas has done to Ghaza, as if they themselves did not partake in this dance with Israel a million times before.

And it is a dance, well-rehearsed and well-executed, and performed so many times before that those of us paying attention could tell what will happen next to a tee. The reprisals, the statements from whomever condemning whatever and standing in solidarity with what side of this conflict and their god given right to protect themselves/resist the aggression/yadayadayada, the eventual kidnapping, the eventual cease fire, the eventual negotiations, the funerals on each side of their own fallen heroes and innocent victims, and naturally, the reprisal for that again. Come on people, we have 24 hour news channels now, what would we fill them with without some good old Israeli Palestinian conflict? Let's inflame shit further, in the name of reporting the news and showing the side that nobody is showing, and how the Palestinian/Israeli victims are being vilified and their side not properly presented to the world. Oh yes, it's a dance we all saw before, way too many times, and , no offense to the victims or their families, it's getting kinda old.

So, to break the news to you: Hey, Palestinian leaders, no matter how many homemade rockets you fire, the Israelis will retaliate with 100 times more weapons who are 1000 times more effective in killing their targets, so yeah, you are not winning here. And hey, Israeli leaders, No matter how many bombs you drop on Ghaza, the people there will continue to lop homemade rockets at you, because – and you should've noticed this the first time one of them stood against one of your tanks with nothing but a rock and a slingshot- they are willing to see 1000 of theirs die for 1 death on your side. You know who gave them that idea? Who set that fabulous exchange rate? You, when you decided that you would trade 1000 of their living for 1 of your dead. And hey, Israeli and Palestinian people, newsflash: Your leaders couldn't give a rats ass about you or your livelihood or your well-being. THEY DON'T CARE IF YOU LIVE OR YOU DIE, OK? Unless, of course, there are political brownie points to be made from exploiting your death or suffering, and god knows there always is, and then they will be quick to take some photos with you or with your grieving family. And they will keep putting you in the line of fire so that they can keep staying in power, because, let's face it, fixing shit was never their strong point anyway, and this is far too easy and familiar not to engage in. We, after all, have been dancing this dance together for thousands of years. What's one more encore?

Hope you enjoy the show. Me? Kind of over it! Let me know when it's over!

Comments

  1. Andrew Brehm says:

    It would all be over very quickly if either side stopped shooting.

    If the Arabs stopped shooting, Israel would have no need to shoot back (it’s expensive and not very rewarding).

    If Israel stopped shooting “Palestine” would become the newest Jew-free Arab state.

    I have come to support _any_ non-Arab group fighting for their survival now. Jews, Massalith, Kurds, Berbers, Nubians, anyone. This has to stop!

  2. sderot’s been shelled nonstop but when israel retaliates…. genocide, killers blah blah blah…

    the best part was watching the hamas news spokesman donning members only jackets circa 1985 on tv. the whole thing was so rigged i had a borat moment.

  3. lol sm from one egyptian/american lab experiment to another…did you just have your first ‘P’/'B’ moment:

    ‘lop’ / ‘lob’ :D

    you hear it all day i bet it’s bound to affect you somehow lol.

  4. Well written, sandmonkey.

  5. The Palestinian leaders need to be wiped out
    The Israelis gave up a part of there country that was supposed to make the Palestinian happy, and instead it got worst

    I wonder how long anyone else would stand by watching
    a weaker group than themselves killing there family

    My self, if you killed someone in my family I would want your family and every friend to be killed

  6. One bizarre thread runs through every post and virtually every word on this wonderful site, and that is that set of demented calisthenics, tortures, bigotry, murder, and virtually every other type of aberrant behavior a civilized person could recognise, ISLAM. I recently saw a picture of a 9 year old child in Iran having his hand held down to be crushed by a truck wheel for stealing bread.
    In truth, before I even continue. I had a revelation, You bastards deserve nothing less! I hear your slimy muezzin beginning his aggrivating yodel from the mosque, get out your whips and prepare to beat yourself (and your women) get down on all fours, and listen to your corrupt mullah rant and rave about why the rest of the sinful world does not want to torture itself like you are stupid enough to do.
    Just kindly refrain from doing it in the road where it might frighten the horses.

  7. Ummm evangelical inbred animal above does not define me. Just like obo does not define Arabs.

    You are scum above author!

  8. Good observations, but what is a solution that both sides would be happy with? There is none, so the so-called dance will continue.

    However, maybe the Hamas cowards are a little scared now. So maybe they will ask for a truce so they can regroup and start all over again. They remind me of people who would rather live a miserable life instead of a happy one as long as it meant they were causing misery to others. True martyrs. So stupid.

  9. It’s easy to criticize the dance, but who is going to stop the music eventually and how will that be done?

  10. Thanks SM for this very smart article. It is rehearsed dances no question about it. And it is an old trick have been used in Egypt hundreds and thousand of times with the MB as the leading dancer. No surprise when you dig a little bit for the roots of MB and Hamas. MB was the creation of the British to divide an conquer Egypt using local dancers. Hamas is the creation of Israel Mossad to control the area using local dancers. Google “Hamas is creation of Israel” and see what old tricks ar being used for the dumb masses in the ME.

  11. Andrew Brehm says:

    “Good observations, but what is a solution that both sides would be happy with?”

    A compromise: 3 million dead Jews.

  12. The problem in our days is that you have to be careful not kill civilians. You kill two or three and there are one hundred more and they continue shooting the rockets, it’s like a roach problem!
    Sometime soon you need to go back to the Roman days. Screw the politically correct way of fighting a war.

  13. Roman Kalik says:

    MB was the creation of the British to divide an conquer Egypt using local dancers. Hamas is the creation of Israel Mossad to control the area using local dancers. Google “Hamas is creation of Israel” and see what old tricks ar being used for the dumb masses in the ME.

    Conspiracy theories are not proof of fact, and both the MB and its Hamas offshoot (oh, you didn’t know where Shaikh Ahmed Yassin got his religious education? Tough) are a local development and affair. Trying to “export” them to “foreign imperialists” as a form of alleviation collective responsibility and possible feelings of guilt by association are a rather sad form of psychological self defense.

    They’re also incredibly common in the Middle-East, and rather dangerous to boot. Shifting the blame for a noteworthy local issue is a surefire way of sticking your head in the sand, and your arse in the air. And I assure you, your arse is quite incapable of conducting an intelligent conversation – no matter how hard it tries. Nor is it capable of solving issues.

    It’s only able of excreting, making the area stink, and posing as a rather tempting target for anyone local who might want to give you a royal shafting.

    Which, by and large, sums up the current reality across the Middle-East.

  14. Some compromise, Andrew. Unfortunately, that’s probably how they look at it.

  15. you see A,B E,F and conclde letters in between they call you conspiracy theorist. Using your brain instead of letting the media (and who control them) wash it for you,you are conspiracy theorist. Science teaches you to examin data analyse them, explore other scientist theories then draw your own conlusion , or that is a conspiracy too?. Check when Hamas acts,the size of Israel reaction and the conclusion of the drama , to whose side it favors. You want to put your head in the sand , feel free there is a lot of it in the ME. BTW people who thought Bush’s venture in Iraq has a different motive they called them conspiracy theorists…mmmm?!!

  16. Roman Kalik says:

    Using your brain instead of letting the media (and who control them)

    And let me guess… the Zionist-Imperialist-Illuminati control the media.

    Science teaches you to examin data analyse them, explore other scientist theories then draw your own conlusion

    Mhm. Precisely. Which is why I’m very amused by the way some people take preconceived “conclusions” and try to forcibly cut-and-paste data into the equation, having the “answer” already, as it were.

    Check when Hamas acts,the size of Israel reaction and the conclusion of the drama , to whose side it favors.

    Yes. Quite. Hamas are *fanatical idiots*, you’ll have no argument from me on that. They sacrifice their civilian populace on a daily basis to satisfy their publicly-stated long-term goals and charter, having built their grassroots support with a social and religious infrastructure with support from the global Muslim Brotherhood all the way.

    The thing is, you claim that they’re all some cleverly orchestrated lie and manipulation bent on keeping the “great manipulators” in power, who in turn control all forms of information worldwide as some kind of great spider that has its feelers worldwide.

    And yet you wonder why I consider you a conspiracy theorist.

    BTW people who thought Bush’s venture in Iraq has a different motive they called them conspiracy theorists…mmmm?!!

    And they remain just that. The argument that Bush invaded Iraq for profit is an argument that has no factual or logical support, and you know… the same people who argue that idiocy also argue that Bush and the Vast NeoCon Conspiracy faked the 9/11 attacks to gain a pretext for that.

    Both arguments are rubbish. One can reasonably argue that the Iraq invasion was more about regional socio-political influence and about removing a rather unstable thorn in the region’s side, moreso than it ever was about WoMD’s.

    But taking sensationalist bullshit and conspiracy theories and calling them “logical arguments” and “facts”, well… that’s just an insult to any person on the planet who has to brain cells to rub together.

  17. “Conspiracy theories”, thank you for elaborating on that jewel of information Roman. It amazes me that supposedly intelligent people think that googling a subject is a legitimate avenue of research. God must love stupid people, he made so many of them.

  18. SM-

    This time around I cannot agree with you…not with most of what you said…

    It is not equal…it is not both sides more-or-less prolonging the agony. It is clearly antagonism from the side of Hamas. They have done nothing towards peace and apparently a huge part of Palestinian society supports them…

    So it is a simple math to me…stop terrorism…Israel will reconcile. Keep shooting rockets…farther and more powerful and always directed at civilian populations…then you have brought this down on your own head…just as Nashrallah did…

    There is a more right and more wrong sometimes…in this case…Hamas is fully, completely and absolutely wrong and responsible and has been all along. Especially since their lack of any effort to be a decent neighbor after the return of Gaza. Israel has no choice…they are doing just what they should be doing. They are right…Hamas is 100% wrong and 100% responsible…nothing at all fuzzy and unclear about it.

  19. it’s obvious by machal’s stellar performance today on al jazzy, that propaganda and obfuscation is job 1 on his to do list. it saddens me that a tasteless loop tape of a dead intubated 7-9 year-old boy is being played on al jazzy’s to rally the base as i blurt this comment.

    ps i hope NSA intercepted machal’s sat feed.

  20. Logical thinker Raman: If I tell you a little story that CIA, Israel and American military helped Iran in the eighties with arms to fight saddam (BTW; USA had no political relation with Iran then but had it with Iraq) they called the project “iran-conra” wouldn’t you call that “conspiracy theory suitable for a Hollywood movie?”But that was the concluded reality. For that matter who do you think ahmadinjihadisworking for? Can anybody ask him how Iranian nuclear bomb will distinguish Israeli from Palestinian? What the drama for??? He is another creation like Hamas and the MB ,he helps insighting reactions to keep the ME from reaching any peace or progress.

  21. You might want to take a look at this:

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3645135,00.html

  22. Ohio @ 11 and @ 17,

    Here is something to contradict you and it is coming straight from the horse’s mouth:

    http://www.antiwar.com/orig/rupp.php?articleid=10195

    Search for “The argument is, the Israelis helped to create Hamas in order to divide the Palestinian resistance and weaken the Fatah movement.”

  23. “iran-conra”

    You mean “Iran-Contra” I’m sure.

    “If I tell you a little story that CIA, Israel and American military helped Iran in the eighties with arms to fight saddam”

    The Iran-Contra affair was a political scandal which was revealed in November 1986 as a result of earlier events during the Reagan administration. It began as an operation to increase U.S.-Iranian relations, wherein Israel would ship weapons to a moderate, politically influential group of Iranians opposed to the Ayatollah Khomeini; the U.S. would reimburse Israel for those weapons and receive payment from Israel. The moderate Iranians agreed to do everything in their power to achieve the release of six U.S. hostages, who were being held by Hezbollah. The plan eventually deteriorated into an arms-for-hostages scheme, in which members of the executive branch sold weapons to Iran in exchange for the release of the American hostages, without the direct authorization of President Ronald Reagan. Large modifications to the plan were conjured by Lieutenant Colonel Oliver North of the National Security Council in late 1985. In North’s plan, a portion of the proceeds from the weapon sales was diverted to fund anti-Sandinista and anti-communist rebels, or Contras, in Nicaragua. While President Ronald Reagan was a supporter of the Contra cause, there has not been any evidence uncovered showing that he authorized this plan.
    After the weapon sales were revealed in November 1986, Ronald Reagan appeared on national television and stated that the weapons transfers had indeed occurred, but that the United States did not trade arms for hostages. The investigation was compounded when large volumes of documents relating to the scandal were destroyed or withheld from investigators by Reagan administration officials. On March 4, 1987, Reagan returned to the airwaves in a nationally televised address, taking full responsibility for any actions that he was unaware of, and admitting that “what began as a strategic opening to Iran deteriorated, in its implementation, into trading arms for hostages.”

    The CIA, Israel and American military did not help Iran fight the Iraq as you claim, nothing could be further from the truth, as a matter of fact; The United States supported Iraq during the Iran–Iraq War as a counterbalance to post-revolutionary Iran. The support took the form of technological aid, intelligence, the sale of dual-use and military equipment, and direct involvement in warfare against Iran. Other countries that supported Iraq during the war included Britain, France, the Soviet Union, and West Germany.

    “For that matter who do you think ahmadinjihadisworking for? He is another creation like Hamas and the MB ,he helps insighting reactions to keep the ME from reaching any peace or progress.”

    Your insight and conclusions are conspiratorial, myopic, pedestrian and just plain wrong, have you ever thought of a career in the diplomatic corps or the UN?

    ;)

  24. It’s insane that the world constantly requires the Israelis to be inept and not take decisive action. Israel is only allowed to use “proportionate” force (i.e. ineffective, useless actions that do nothing to stop Hamas. If Israel does anything EFFECTIVE in response to Hamas terror, it is criticized for being “disproportionate.”

    Israel has been warning for weeks that it would not tolerate Hamas’ continuing escalation, while Hamas “declared war” on Israel (as if it had EVER stopped being at war with Israel) and sent increasing numbers of MORTAR bombs and rockets into Israel.

    If ANYONE doubts how lethal these rockets and bombs are, the Hamas rockets instantly killed 2 Palestinian girls yesterday (where was the anger of the world then?) when they misfired. The ONLY thing that has prevented mass loss of life on the Israeli side is the thorough preparedness of the Israelis, who have reinforced rooms in every single house and who have radar-based warning systems that sound (sometimes) when rockets arc overhead. Again – Israel’s preparedness saves Israeli lives, whereas Hamas does the opposite, putting civilians in the line of fire. The result only looks “disproportionate” to those who don’t see that the difference in casualties simply reflects the extent to which Israel insists on protecting its people, whereas Hamas insists on endangering them because Hamas thinks that dead Gazans “look good” for the cameras.

    Thanks.

  25. & by the way, Howie is right.

    ALL HAMAS HAS EVER HAD TO DO IS STOP THE ROCKETS AND THE TERROR. That’s it. Declare that Israel is out of Gaza and henceforth if there is fighting, it will happen in the WB. But Gaza instead insists on firing its artillery into Israeli towns. It pretends that this is retaliation for things, but there was no Israeli fire at all for several months. So that’s just another lie. No, the terrorists in Gaza WANT to keep war going with Israel, but when Israel fights back, they whine that boo hoo, nasty Israel is beating them up.

    Let’s make this simple. If the Cuba does not want to be bombed by the US, it should not shoot rockets at the US. If Argentina does not want to be bombed by the UK, it should not shoot rockets at the UK. If Iraqi Kurdistan does not want Turkey to bomb it, Kurdistan should not shoot rockets at Turkey (or allow them to be shot from Kurdistan). If Hamas does not want Israel to bomb it, Hamas should not shoot rockets at Israel. That’s how the world WORKS. If you shoot at the other guy, and he’s stronger than you, you’re going to get hurt. So you just don’t DO that.

    Unless your enemy is Israel, because then you can count on millions of deluded morons to come to your defense and claim that Israel has to be just as inept and pathetically stupid as you are, or it’s “not fair.”

    Rant finished. Thanks again.

  26. By the way…

    Zvi is right

  27. Zvi is right! Roman and Leo too!! ;)

    Go to the head of the snake, eliminate the Hamas leadership.

  28. Yeah well… Despite my sympathies for Israel, I can’t help but get frustrated at the fact that Israel just can’t seem to get their fingers out and start reining in the settlers/orthodox and their illegal settlements in palestinian areas. Can’t they see that, besides condoning the breaking of international laws, they’re giving fundamentalists and other extremists the perfect excuse to drag this thing on indefinately?!?

    If we’re to see some form of peace in the ME, Israel needs to get their own extremists under control. THEN there’ll be no excuse left for people not to condemn the actions og Hamas and the like. THEN they can defend themselves with head held high. THEN the ordinary palestinian/arab might not see a reason for continued attacks on Israel.

    Hamas may be the aggresor in most clashes, but Israel bears a large responsibility for the escalation of the conflict through it’s ineptitude to keep it’s own nose clean…!

  29. While I agree with Adam to a degree. I have a hard time comparing Israeli extremists building houses with the Islamic extremists lobbing explosives into Israel. Seems like moral relativism to me. Hamas was already given Gaza, and to what end? Gaza was thriving under Israeli control but look at it now.

    http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/03/27/africa/ME-GEN-Gaza-Sewage-Flood.php

    “Gaza City Mayor Majid Abu Ramadan, who leads a council of Gaza municipalities, blamed the collapse on the endemic lawlessness here, accusing local residents of stealing the dirt and selling it to building companies for 300 shekels ($70, €52) a truckload.”

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-09-13-mideast_x.htm

    ” Palestinians looted dozens of greenhouses on Tuesday, walking off with irrigation hoses, water pumps and plastic sheeting in a blow to fledgling efforts to reconstruct the Gaza Strip.”

    A good deed never goes unpunished, it seems.

  30. Adam…

    You sound like a reasonable guy…so allow me to give you just a little bit of truth…And I lived in Israel, worked in Israel…I am married to an Israeli, I worked with Arabs in Israel in Arab villages and I have friends and a relative who are “settlers”.

    The VAST majority of Israelis live in or near Haifa, Tel-Aviv and Jerusalem…The vast majority of “settlers” are not these guys you are seeing running around looking like crazies…Most that are in “Palestinian territory” live in neighborhoods right up in Jerusalem and her suburbs….many are not even on the political right…they just go to work, eat, watch television and later on die…

    This settler thing is SUCH a distortion…but the Arabs and by the press…the guys you are thinking of make up maybe 1-2% of the Israeli population…Roman help me here…in all of Hebron…what are there 500 Jews? I mean…and Adam…they are not driving tanks…but they do make a lot of noise. The settlers are the best thing that ever happened to the Palestinians because they can take the issue and squeeze it for propoganda for a bunch of suckers who just lap that stuff up.

    Adam…the settlers are 99% noise machines…not much else…

    Adam…the issue is and always has been primarily from the Arab side…real, live attacks with real live armies…like 48, 67 and 73. And real live terror going back over 100 years…real bombs, real guns, real knives and almost always directed at civilians…

    The Arab terror also feeds into these far Right types and serves as THEIR propoganda tool…

    I personally know one Israeli, and I am not sure of him, who would reject peace if there were a complete cessation of terror and a clear, unambiguous acceptance of Israel…

    You might not like the answer…but walls, and checkpoints, and harrassment and targeted bombings or whatever…they are about fear and security. Look…since 1973 Israel has GIVEN UP land…not increased its side…THINK THINK…please THINK…Israel is smaller now than in 1973…Sinai back, Gaza…back, Southern Lebanon…evacuated…how does that calculate into aggression or expansionism…unless there is a new math I am not familiar with???

    The truth is…terror and violence has been THE Arab/Palestinian methodology (Jordan and Egypt made piece and there has been a near zero level of aggression ever since between the countries) and they BRAG about their resistance and then cry when we have had enough of it…

    Adam…it has NOTHING to do with settlers…they are a flea on an elephants ass and primarily keep in business by Palestinian aggression.

    I know the truth can be a bit tough to handle…but unlike many folks here…except for maybe Roman and a few others…I have been right there and interact with Israelis every single day since 1981…

    You have been duped

  31. Adam…

    My brother-in-law used to live in an “illegal settlement”. He is the type of guy you are thinking of (I have other relatives who are former Peace Now types, including my wife)…

    That settlement was made up of a few trailers on a hill in the middle of nowhere. Yes…maybe an afront to Palestinians feelings….but not exactly an excuse to blow up a bus full of little kids or fire bombs randomly into neighborhoods…And the settlements you are talking about are primarily…no not exclusively…but primarily this type of thing…

    Roman or Abu Sa’ar…help me out here if you have more specific demographics.

    I want NO WAR…I would readily cede land…I have relatives 19 year old kids caught in the fire here…and these are not wild-eyed settlers feeling that they are part of the army of God…just kids stuck having to do this horrible shit, but knowing they are protecting a tiny country…a speck on the map. I would cede but I have seen NOTHING from the other side..NOTHING…

  32. If Arabs take afront to presence of one hundred thousand Jews in WB then Jews have more than valid reason to take afront to presence of over a million Arabs in Israel.

    Adam, are you implying population exchange is a solution to peace?

    PS. “Zvi is right! Roman and Leo too!!” reminds me of an episode from “Blazing saddles”.

  33. From Blazing Saddles:

    Reverend Johnson: Order, order. Goddamnit, I said “order.
    Howard Johnson: Y’know, Nietzsche says: “Out of chaos comes order.
    Olson Johnson: Oh, blow it out your ass, Howard.

    ;) sorry, i couldn’t help myself!! ;)

  34. Zvi is right, as usual–yes, and Howie is right:) I cannot honestly imagine another country putting up with constant attacks against its civilians for so long without retaliating. I read some news reports that stated that at the end of the ceasefire Israel attacked, as though this was out of the blue. I believe that Israel should do as much as possible, anything reasonable that they possibly can, to promote peace with their neighbors. My concern is that when there seem to be reasonable, viable—even generous offers made to the Palestinians, these are rejected and this horrible cycle of violence continues. It is just my nature, I guess, but I cannot hate an entire group of people so that the result is that I would live in such a violent, miserable conflict. I know that many in Gaza just want to live a normal life, in peace, and their leaders/extremists are making that impossible. It is absolutely sickening. I was so hopeful that when Israel left Gaza there would be movement toward compromise and peace. I was hoping that once there were openings for opportunities for the people in Gaza, that Israel and others would be supportive of the people in Gaza and would work to make there lives better. I have only sadness and no answers at all.

  35. Ooops, that should be “their lives better”. Sorry.

  36. It has always been interesting to me that no Jew should live on Muslim land but, all Muslims have claim to Jewish land…
    The settlers, as you said, are merely fodder for the Muslim intifada. But, the Muslims living and working in Israel have a perfect right! Heck, they are even represented in the government!

  37. This is a site that is very sympathetic to the Palestinians:

    http://a-mother-from-gaza.blogspot.com/

    The funny thing is that this woman is currently living in the U.S. while her husband attends Duke University to be an Othamologist!
    She hates the U.S. with every fiber of her soul but is not below having her husband take up a seat at one of our universities to get the education he wants…
    I have written to her many times asking her about this hypocracy and she refuses to reply! Often times she writes some condescending article about Americans… those same people that are making her husband’s education come true. Lately, she has been wailing about the extreme suffering of “her people” in the Gaza strip. Funny thing how she is able to go there and visit and then come back to the U.S. She has done that many times over the last few years…
    It has become apparent that my comments are banned from her site as she only accepts comments that express sympathy for the terrible things being done to the Palestinian people…
    I wonder if anyone else would like to give it a shot.

  38. Tedders…

    “Oh, blow it out your ass, Howard. ”

    Can’t….your lips block the exit.

    :0

  39. Anonymousrex says:

    One thing I have noticed about this “well rehearsed, well executed dance” is that immediately after the fact the debate turns to talking about who broke the “truce” first, and comparing Hamas’s constant indiscriminate shelling via useless rockets, to Israel’s targeted yet reckless killing of militant targets.

    What the debate completely misses is that, absent the Qassams and F-16s, and under ongoing “truces”, there is always still an occupation of Palestinian land with all what the word “occupation” means. There is always a blockade and a siege. I think, when people are forced to use animal feed to make bread (which is what was reported in Gaza recently, while the “truce” was still in effect), then there is a serious problem.

    I think there is only one logical explanation as to why Hamas would have wanted to provoke an Israeli airstrike. It’s because the international community seems to not care about Gaza unless lives are lost via airstrikes.

    I bet if Israel starves every single Palestinian to death. If they literally enforce a blockade so long that every last soul inside Gaza is lost from hunger, the world will only wake up to the tragedy after it had finished.

  40. Amonymourex, Israel provides 70% of the electricity to Gaza, usually allows transportation of goods to Gaza (withholds it as an attempt to stop rocket attacks), and also very often provides medical care for those in Gaza. Egypt also has a border with Gaza and could allow shipments of goods to Gaza. (SM, maybe you could tell us more about this situation). I’m not a conflict resolution expert by any means, but I think that if you are trying to develop some kind of relationship with your neighbors, you don’t constantly bombard them with rockets. Not a good way to proceed if you want to forge peace. Hamas has made it clear though that is NOT their objective: their stated goal has been to get rid of Israel, “push the Jews into the sea, etc”. Hamas seemed to count on Israel not reacting. The Hamas leadership does not seem to care about the people in Gaza at all, or they would not hide among residential areas like cowards.

  41. Anonymosrex…

    Truly…you must be on crack…Do you have an original thought of your own or just repeat the spoon-fed propoganda that you get?

    It is about terrorism coming from the Palestinian side…and we can also argue that Jewish land has been occupied for 2,000 years, illegally….but that is a tired debate.

  42. I don’t know, Sandmonkey. You have a point about politicians only looking out for their own interests. And your critique of certain Israeli stupidities (like lopsided prisoner exchanges) is dead-on.

    Look, there are a lot of stupid people in Israel–on the right and the left–and the leadership sometimes reflects this. But the fact is, Hamas is a psycho religious fascist organization. There are psycho fascists in Israel too–but they’re not running the country.

    The way to put an end to this rehearsed dance is to decimate the Hamas leadership once and for all. In 2004 Hamas was hurting after a series of high-profile assassinations; it was only after the disengagement (which I supported, but that’s another story) that they came back, as this was seen as validating their violent behavior. Israel can stand an occasional rocket now and then, but not a heavily armed terrorist paramilitary force on the border. Hamas needs to be cut down to size, elections or not.

    Believe me, if Hamas starts raining rockets on, say, Nuweiba in response to the Egyptian side of the siege, you’ll be calling for the all-out razing of those Hamas fuckers, no matter how much Mubarak sucks.

  43. There is enough land for all concerned in this dispute. The basic problem seems to be hatred. Seems to me that it would be best for each group to have their own land and to live side by side as neighbors. I cannot imagine that hatred would be chosen over peace and tranquility, being able to provide a normal life for children and families. It is irrational. Insane.

  44. And concerning my last few posts, Anon… Why don’t the Muslim nations that surround Gaza and the Palestinian nation on three sides trade and help the Palestinians? Why is it Israels obligation to give anything to the Palestinians? They have made it very clear that they hate Israel. Fine, let Jordan or Egypt supply power to them and food and water and education and jobs and…ect. Why does Israel have to support this disfunctional state?
    Some of the wealthiest nations in the world are Muslim states. Why is it that Palestine must rely on the Jewish state for their survival?

  45. Lynne…

    Tell Hamas that…most of us agree with you.

  46. I bet if Israel starves every single Palestinian to death. If they literally enforce a blockade so long that every last soul inside Gaza is lost from hunger, the world will only wake up to the tragedy after it had finished.

    AgainAnon – Why is it that Israel alone has the “power” to starve the Palestinians. Don’t you see something terribly wrong with this? Don’t the other Muslim nations have the “power” to feed the Palestinians? Or,do they just not choose to because I am willing to bet that if the Muslim nations that surround Palestine went to the UnitedNations and offered to take over humanitarian efforts in Palestine no nation would stop them… They choose not to and that should make you pause and wonder why…

  47. Ok people, I wanted this to be the last Ghaza post, but you have presented your arguments and I guess now I have to do a rebuttal. Should have one by the end of the day! :)

  48. Tedders @ 36,

    Yeah, thank you for a good laugh.

    PS. Mel Brooks is The Genius.

  49. Thanks Leo, I think Howie must have missed the movie!!

  50. Howie,

    We were talking about Howard Johnson, not you. :)

  51. Tedders…

    Did I mess up?

    It is the crack habit…excuse me…sorry…

    ;(

    Bad Howie…bad bad Howie

    SM…

    Last Gaza post? Dude…you started it..what did you expect…a peace agreement?

  52. There’s no such SHIT at get your people slaughtered, there is people with F16s bombing people on the streets and killing hundreds of them. Don’t try to play down what Isreal is doing and blame it on Hamas.

    Please…, go to hell!

  53. Ahmad

    “There’s no such SHIT at get your people slaughtered, there is people with F16s bombing people on the streets and killing hundreds of them.”

    Say WHATTTTTTTTTTTTTT?

  54. ahmad,

    Do not get upset. Hamas is learning value of peace today.
    Once they get educated life of Gazans will become much better in all aspects.
    Look a bit farther than your nose, would you.

    PS. I personally do not believe in hell and could not care less but is it really your job to decide the destination?

  55. another ahmed says:

    ‘Hamas is learning value of peace today.’

    they will never learn the value of peace!

    Hamas has been arelentless purveyer of violence since it’s inception. their head clown mashal clearly proved yesterday that he does not want anything that hints of peace. using al crapzeera as his platform he appealed to egypt, SA and jordan to stop colluding with the ‘zionists’ for god will ask them on the day of judgment if they righteously aided their arab muslim brothers in their plight against the zionists and the evil empire.

    yes AHMED granted f16s were used but sderot has had a steady diet of morning and afternoon rockets for a year now. and i don’t hear the bbc whining about that.

  56. Shimon Peres: “It is the first time in the history of Israel that we, the Israelis, cannot understand the motives or the purposes of the ones who are shooting at us. It is the most unreasonable war, done by the most unreasonable warriors. (…)
    Israel doesn’t have any ambition in Gaza. We left out of our free choice. We have never gone back to the idea of returning to Gaza. It’s over. But we cannot permit that Gaza will become a permanent base of threatening and even killing children and innocent people in Israel for God knows why. I feel that in our hearts, we don’t have any hatred for the Gazan people. Their suffering doesn’t carry any joy in our hearts. On the contrary, we feel that the better they will have it, better neighbors we shall have.”
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/karin-kloosterman/israels-president-shimon_b_153749.html

  57. Howie, I’m glad that most of us see it that way. Years ago when i was training with a psychiatrist as his clinical associate/social worker (you know, you come out of the university with only a foundation not real experience), he told me that one cannot have a rational conversation with an alcoholic who is drinking, a drug abuser who is high, or a person who is psychotic. You may be able to issue simple directives for their well-being, but you cannot “negotiate” or have a therapeutic conversation. This is the case with Hamas as well as with all extremists. I have deep concern and great sympathy for the people in Gaza, and I hope for a resolution, but their situation is not improved by blind hatred and by following the leadership of insane leaders. More worrisome altogether to me, is that there are so many people outside of Gaza, who align themselves with the extremist movement simply because they hate the Jewish people. People, like so many of the reporters for the BBC –for example—who know better, who know the history of the area, and who chose to influence others to condemn the Jewish people for trying to compromise with their neighbors in order to live on this tiny bit of land called Israel. I think that compromise is called for on both sides and that those compromises should be guided by goodwill, but as long as people are mired in hatred there will be no improvement in this situation. Just so that this is not misunderstood, I want to say that I equally condemn extremism within the Jewish community. I believe in saying all of this though, I am preaching to the choir…

  58. Anonymousrex says:

    Lynne,

    just to give you an idea of how “out of touch” you are with what the reality in Gaza is, don’t talk to Palestinians about “a relationship with your neighbors.”

    I don’t know which country you live in, but if I were to give you a small example. If Al Qaeda had invaded and occupied NY and simply besieged the WTC instead of bringing it down, people inside the WTC would not consider their besiegers as their neighbors.

    Israel is NOT a neighbor to most Palestinians. It is their occupier and oppressor.

    With regards to trade and support from other neighboring countries. Sure, why not? Not, because Israel doesn’t allow Palestinians to freely trade with their neighbors. The only country Gaza has a border with is Egypt and that border crossing is closed most of the time out of pressure from Israel and the US.

    The answer to this supposedly very complex conflict is pure and simple. Give people the rights of whom you’ve taken their rights back.

  59. AnonymousSex…

    “The answer to this supposedly very complex conflict is pure and simple. Give people the rights of whom you’ve taken their rights back.”

    Wrong…people earn rights through their behavior and they lose their rights because of their behavior…just like Hamas recently passing laws to bring back amputation as a response to certain behavior.

    This is about terror and Israel would respect the rights of any neighbor or human who acts in a manner that deserves respect. 100 years of terrorist behavior deserves NO respect.

    BTW…your NY analogy….Did you write that while high on crack or something? It makes utterly no sense whatsoever…

  60. Anonymousrex, respectfully. I’d like for you to go back and read the history of the area. Read a respected, unbiased history, or better yet—read from original sources at the time—documents, laws, newspapers, etc. We are not talking about ancient history here. The Jewish people and the Palestinian people were to each have a place to live, but the Palestinian people rejected the offer to live as neighbors to the Jews.
    Israel as the occupier and oppressor? Really! They have this tiny place. Tiny! Gaza was gained through a war, but they tried to give the territory back to Egypt and Egypt would not take it.
    I think that SandMonkey is more familiar with this history than i am, so perhaps he could address this topic. He could give you a better accounting of history than i could, I am sure.
    What is your response to this? Israel recently left Gaza, every single square inch of it, and proposed many options for peace. None of these have been accepted. They cannot want peace. They do not compromise at all. Recently, there was an offer, which was rejected by the Palestinian leadership, to connect Gaza and the West Bank. I thought that surely this would be acceptable.
    It is impossible to negotiate with those who use terror at every moment, who make no concessions, who refuse to work toward peace. In my opinion, the Palestinian leadership does not care about the people in Gaza at all. You give the example of Al Qaeda: Yes, Hamas is like Al Qaeda. You cannot trust or negotiate with terrorists. I respect you, and though we do not agree, I hope that we can continue to talk. Perhaps we would both have something to learn from each other. Could you explain your last sentence? I’d like to know more about the steps that you see necessary to bring peace to the region. I hope that SM can enlighten us about the history of the conflict :)

  61. Man you are SO right SM the Pali’s are fearless as hell, if properly trained they will out perform even Hezbollah because that’s what disproportionate IDF response does, it hardens people. I mean read the Y net news article you left a link to. Hardened teens talk about kidnapping IDf soldiers as if they were dyslexic chickens man.

    In the end I am tired of the IDf trying to prove that they can be more evil than Hitler by protecting an occupied land they claim they occupied for peace, prosperity and worship. I believe they are more armageddon than Iran.

    Now the only way to help the murder of innocent babies in Gaza is through sending money to the MB. Thanks a lot for making us have to do that IDF, you fucking idiots!

  62. Sand Ape,

    First of all tough talk is cheap. We have one tough talker hiding in Damascus and one nobody knows where. Then we have fools who are dying for non-existent cause.

    Now, about your MB rant. What do you expect to happen should MB prevail?
    Do you expect them to take control of some country and start war with Israel?
    Because if you do I have alternative scenario you will like even less than what you have today.
    And you say Israelis are fucking idiots.

  63. Sand Ape, you cannot be serious, and if you are, seek mental counseling.
    The IDF tries to target the military or those who are shooting missles at Israel. Hamas targets civilians routinely, nearly daily. Frankly, I am sick of any kind of war, of any kind of military action. It’s uncivilized. In this case, it is self-defense as there seems that Hamas has given no other options. I still hate it.
    Many young Palestinians apparently have little thought of the value of their own lives. They should rethink that.
    Is the IDF’s response “disproportionate”? I don’t think so. What other country in the entire world would have held off for so long without responding militarily? The answer is none. The Israeli government tried to target those who were directly shooting the rockets, but that certainly did not work. Hamas refused to agree to a new ceasefire and did not honor the last one. I dislike the military action but I don’t think that Israel can continue to let rockets land in the schoolyards, on kindergarten schools, on private residences, as has been the case for a long, long time.
    This is nothing like Hitler, and I cannot believe that you think it is.

  64. Roman Kalik says:

    Roman help me here…in all of Hebron…what are there 500 Jews?

    A little over 600, if memory serves, Howie. And of those, I would mark less than 10% (specific families, in fact) as holding extremist views – several of them are former members of the illegal Kach party.

    And even then, they’re mainly about theatrics and loudness. And the Israeli legal establishment, and frankly the majority of the public, have little time or consideration for their idiocy.

    I read some news reports that stated that at the end of the ceasefire Israel attacked, as though this was out of the blue.

    *nod* The, ah, *smaller* reports from our region do so often get lost along the way, be it about attempted suicide bombers (it ain’t news if the death-toll isn’t double-figures at least), tunnels dug under the Gaza-Israel border (same reason) or rocket and mortar attacks.

    Apparently Israelis should follow the Palestinian way of getting into the news – we should ignore our civilians, make sure that dozens die, and then dance in their blood in front of the cameramen while screaming obscenities about the evil of the “other side”.

    All that money the Israeli government invested in early warning systems, bomb shelters, and all that legislation about building every single house with an indoor armored room… yeah, should have invested in a PR campaign instead.

    Silly us.

    there is people with F16s bombing people on the streets and killing hundreds of them.

    Yes, Ahmad. The vast majority of whom wore a Hamas uniform of one form or another – because these are the people Israel targeted over the past few days, in the streets of Gaza City and the nearby towns. Their bases, training locations, and buildings specifically operated by some form of armed Hamas operatives.

    The more recent targets were the smuggling tunnel network that Hamas had set up on the Gaza-Egypt border.

    In fact, Israel had prepared for this operation with extensive intel, and had carefully targeted specific military targets while minimizing civilian casualties.

    That’s War 101, Ahmad. I prefer it to Cross-Border Raids 101, in the long run. Hamas declared their war several years ago – so let them understand what war is if they’re unwilling to end it.

  65. Roman, this about sums it up. I agree; Hamas really declared war several years ago. Indeed, they have never said anything else.
    IF Israel wanted to take action such as Hamas does, they would target civilians, but they try not to do this. The crossings are allowing humanitarian aid in to the people of Gaza. Prime Minister Livni made a point of saying that the conflict is with Hamas and that Hamas is the target, not the Palestinian people.

  66. #50
    IMPOSTER!

  67. with all do respect it seems that most of you are preaching to the choir here (to put it politely.)3 or 4 of you going back and forth fine tuning semantics. i’d like to hear an unambiguous and cogent post by a hamas supporter devoid of delusion and profanity…IS THERE ANY ONE OUT THERE?

  68. Roman Kalik says:

    Prime Minister Livni

    She’s not the PM – at least not yet. Olmert still rules, to our great chagrin.

  69. @ hazem lol btw spoke to soon…

  70. Seriously I have tried and tried to see it from the Israel’s point of view and the more I try, the more I realize that it is not possible to do so unless I am Jewish and have ancestry that has been smitten and abused in the past. Therefore making the existence of a blood state that shouldn’t exist “The cause” with exhibitionist aggression and political debauchery, sugar coating death and baby shoes as terrorist combat boots.

    What I am trying to say is that it takes a severe degree of discontent and trauma to partake in such behavior. Jews are essentially branding themselves as trash that nobody in the world wants to take in. Saying its them against us, like a virus in a body that can’t be eliminated by modern medicine. Saying the worlds best bet is to just accept it or we will damage the body we occupy if you try to eradicate us again but this time with deadly force. Demona.

    I used to be so anti Jihadi and so pro Israel but find myself now turning into an antisemite over night because of Israeli ineffective politics and what they just did in Gaza.

    Are you stupid, don’t you know that violence will only breed more violence? You just lost my support.

    The world remembers when even you heir Hertzel were deemed a terrorist and one mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist!

    Good luck Israel in keeping the upper hand because ignorance and arrogance always perishes as someone said!

  71. sand ape YOUR ARE A SEMITE!!!

  72. It seems I got a bit of a scolding from some of you guys… ;)

    Well, sticking to your arguments about the illegal settlers being ordinary people or loudmouths at worst, tell me… Why in hell are they on the wrong side of the border?!? And if the israeli goverment and populace care so little for them and their opinions, why the hell aren’t they dragging their sorry asses across the border??!!??

    It may seem inconsequential to you guys, but nevertheless, in many peoples eyes, these settlers represent a constant israeli provocation towards the palestinians, and, if not exactly condoning the actions of Hamas, they serve as a convenient explanation for their animosity. Remove the excuse and maybe, just maybe, you might remove the sympathy. It doesn’t matter if you agree with these people’s view – it doesn’t even matter if you respect them. The fact of the matter is that their opinions count, and this “insignificant problem” is keeping them off your side.

    Again, I’m generally all on Israels side, but I see faults in their behaviour as well… Faults that, in the end, give their advesaries the moral ballast they need to soak up the sympathy of the world.

  73. Sand Ape:

    First of, as Anon pointed out, you yourself are a semite, at least if your monicker is anything to go by…

    Second, every point you make against Israel and jews in your last post goes (at least!) double for the palestinians – how does that compute with your alledged turning from the israeli to the palestinian side???!!!

  74. That’s too true, this all place is stupid and makes me wants to cry.
    The worst thing is that it was obvious that it was going to happen and it could have been avoided so easily, I hate this.

  75. Roman Kalik says:

    Therefore making the existence of a blood state that shouldn’t exist “The cause” with exhibitionist aggression and political debauchery, sugar coating death and baby shoes as terrorist combat boots.

    You know… I think I’ve written a bit about sensationalist bullshit here somewhere. Too bad I didn’t add a bit about emotional propaganda rants.

    Oh wait, I did, didn’t I. When I mentioned the general result of talking out of your arse.

    Saying the worlds best bet is to just accept it or we will damage the body we occupy if you try to eradicate us again but this time with deadly force. Demona.

    Interesting… the initial comparison above was saying that Israel is like Nazi Germany. This one compares Israel to a demonic possession.

    Good, good… that’s two thirds of the classic anti-Semitic myths so far.

    Are you stupid, don’t you know that violence will only breed more violence?

    The lack of violence from one side does not breed the lack of violence on the other. It takes two to shake hands and merely one to point a gun.

    Point a gun long enough at a proffered hand, taking a few pot shots here and there, and it will draw its own gun. And fire. Accurately.

    Because one can either fire accurately, or wait for the other fellow to get a better gun – or get lucky.

    And this is where the analogy ends, because one can only reduce millions of people into a single individual for only so much effectiveness without losing focus.

    In real life, no gun is 100% accurate, and neither is the man holding it. We could wish for 10-kilometer sniper rifles that only hit the *bad* people, but then… these don’t exist.

    We just live with the options we get, try to choose the best options of a lot of bad ones… and live on.

    The world remembers when even you heir Hertzel were deemed a terrorist and one mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist!

    Herzl? The news reporter from Vienna? A terrorist? Interesting.

    Tell me… you do realize that Herzl only saw the state of Israel out of a fifty year-old coffin?

    Likely not.

    Good luck Israel in keeping the upper hand because ignorance and arrogance always perishes as someone said!

    But surely you’re the living proof of the very opposite?

  76. Roman Kalik says:

    Well, sticking to your arguments about the illegal settlers being ordinary people or loudmouths at worst, tell me… Why in hell are they on the wrong side of the border?!?

    The border of what?

    Those particular lines on the map were, before 1967, *armistice lines* between Israel, Jordan, and Egypt. Jordan and Egypt broke the armistice, and lost the territory beyond it in the subsequent war.

    Later agreements between Israel, Egypt, and Jordan left Gaza and the West Bank under Israeli control, and any Israeli *concession* to the local populace regarding their national status is just that.

    An Israeli concession.

    The idea that Israel is somehow at *fault* because it allowed its civilians to cross an imaginary line in the sand which did *not* constitute an international border between the State of Israel and the Yet-To-Exist State of Palestine is not merely absurd. It’s rubbish. It’s a form of rewriting history to somehow pretend that Jordan and Egypt were merely “caretakers” for the Great Palestinian Land which was, of course, merely just around the corner… they just didn’t have the time to declare it properly, is all…

    And further, it implies that for Israeli civilians and government officials it is illegal to cross this imaginary line in the sand. Or buy land there. Or to live there in the first place.

    The very definition of “land of undecided fate” is that its fate is bloody undecided.

  77. not one inch of gaza was occupied. 1,000′s of missles were fired from it with little or no reaction from the liberal gov’t of Israel. if there was peace the HAMASSHOLES WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO STEAL THE JEZIA TAX FROM THE EURO LEFT.

    there would be no reason for the HAMASSHOLEs to exist if they weren’t playing war games. Well it is time they were given what they wanted all along

    call out the WAMBULANCE WAH WAH WAH WAH.

  78. #80 i really don’t see a difference between you and sand ape! it’s comments like these that perpetuates the ignorance and the violence sand ape included!!!!

  79. Roman Kalik says:

    #81,

    Agreed.

  80. Sand Ape, I think we agree on one thing, do we? That peace is desirable and that the well-being of the people is of central importance. That said, I believe that Abbas is in the best position, as a moderate, to take care of the Palestinian people. I have never heard Hamas state ever that they desired peace with Israel, only that they wished to drive them out of existence. It cannot be doubted that Israel does not wish to harm civilians in Gaza. If they did want to do so, the military operation would look quite different. The IDF targets were Hamas targets and weapons caches, not civilians. Because Hamas hides among the population avoiding harm to civilians is difficult. Hamas operatives themselves killed two children just a few days ago in their attempts to fire rockets at Israel. Israel’s military policies are not those favored by Europeans in the past: scorched earth tactics which left thousands of civilians dead and wiped out entire cities. For there to be the peace and opportunities for good lives of all the people involved in this conflict, there has to be goodwill and people acting in good faith. That has been absent. I hope that will not always be the case.

  81. SM,
    It’s easy to say you’re “over it” when your life hasn’t been severely distorted by raids, intense border checks, and embargos by a population that pushed your grandparents from their land and has denied them right to return. For you, this might seem boring because it’s been shown on TV in its various forms time and time again. But, THIS ISN’T A RERUN ON TV! For Paletsinians, it’s real life. Have a little sympathy and stop being a typical apathetic American who just wants something different on TV. The founding fathers fought a revolution over taxes. I think the Palestinians have a bit more justification for their struggle.

  82. Very expected, LMAO @ my old single minded Israeli comrades and their supporters alike.

    We used to do that together all the time, when they criticized our cause, we would call them racist anti Semites, when that back fired we lent them back part of the word that we hijacked and tried to equate to mean to refer to Jews alone and we called them Semites themselves. Those were funny days.

    I learned so much from you guys, I can not deny your favor on me. I am who I am today thanks to adopting your superior work ethic and tactical supremacy and camaraderie which I developed during my years of blindly supporting “the Cause.”

    I just hate to know deep down inside I was on the wrong side and didn’t come clean sooner because there are definite ugly similarities between the earlier generations of Israelis and Hitlers Gestapo.

    Israel will fail basically coz they waited too long to try and put a lid on this sooner. It would have been easier to try and justify one big sugar coated massive exterminating strike.

    Oh wait a minute, they just did that!

    But on the brighter side, did you guys hear about the Israeli protesters surrounded by Israeli police over the air strike in Gaza. If I am not mistaken the only place in the world that witnessed this was Israel, which goes to show that not all Israeli’s are bad people and there are a lot of people just like me.

    Too bad there arent any on this blog

  83. Sand Ape, I don’t understand you. Easy to criticize but what would you have Israel do instead?

  84. Thanks for asking Lynne but I think, you do too, understand me.

    But just in case you didn’t. There are numerous things that could be done. That’s where the arguing starts and things get out of hand and nothing ever gets done in the end.

    As you know the problem is very deep rooted and will be very hard to remedy without very drastic change in the Israeli political scheme. As years of fear tactics and corrupt politicians and alliances with the armory machine are at a peak. Thinking that Israel will be relatively safe for the moment and be able to keep a small resistance at bay.

    Just what Israeli politics needs, brand new politicians, new political parties etc..

    Well for starters I would propose that Israel started to think in terms of a long term existence with a broad spectrum ideology. Being autonomous and not prostituting itself to the might of the military aid machine for its continued existence. Rewarding the military machine by supporting the instability that ensues by creating a demand for weapons on both sides only causes more problems. Let them prove to the Arab world that they are indeed autonomous while making unilateral moves. This will take at least 20 years to do but can be done. But will Israel stay steadfast amidst a whole lot of people that will want to see it crumble? You tell me?

    If Israel wants to be the leader in the middle east then they have to put Israel first and be fair. That starts with being foolishly and unequivocally selfless. Just try it, Israel will still be the only nation with Nuclear capability in the region. Just give it a chance. We all know that Israel is the greatest threat to Israel.

    Israel should do like president Sadat did and bend over backwards and do the unthinkable to prove that it really wants peace. Try helping all Arabs, even the ones firing rockets. Removing the settlements etc. This will win the hearts of even the most ignorant Hamas, Hezbollah and el Qaida insurgents.

    Let a mere 300 Israelis die in the process of restraint, so what. That’s the number of Palestinians killed in the Gaza strike alone. Israel has to start thinking outside the box again. Get rid of the bias that Israeli life is worth more than that of a Palestinian life.

    For God’s sake, get rid of all the blackmailing and recycled impotent Israeli politicians that are all about themselves. Start a pro Palestinian peace party or a left wing Holocaust party, do whatever it takes.

    Honor the memory of the holocaust victims by making Israel a loved nation.

    Don’t worry about Iran, because if Israel withdraws and sucks it in, as a show of support, the Palestinians will knock em offline for Israel because the Palestinians know that Israel and Palestine will be affected as one and the same if there were to be any nuclear fallout. Plus Palestinians hate those Shiites anyways and would do it for free?

    How long does Israel want to be labelled the belligerent nascent nation? Israel needs the LOVE OF ITS NEIGHBOURS, not the love of the West if it wants peace.

    There is so much that can be done you have no idea! But who is willing to do it. See my point?

  85. Sand Ape,

    “Israel should do like president Sadat did and bend over backwards and do the unthinkable to prove that it really wants peace.”

    I believe by leaving Lebanon and Gaza and having plans to leave WB Israel did just that.
    Guess what, Arabs did not take it as good will gesture. They took is as weakness. So, naturally today we see Israelis trying to make peace using different approach. Who knows, this one might actually pan out.
    I hope you see my point too.

  86. Anonymousrex says:

    Thus far,

    which side occupies the other? Israel.
    which side actually pushed the other’s people into the sea and across the river? Israel.
    which side actually did wipe off hundreds of villages of the other’s off the map? Israel.
    which side has more sophisticated weapons? Israel.
    which side should be able to kill less civilians thanks to its sophisticated weapons? Israel.
    which side has killed and continues to kill more civilians? Israel.
    which side’s snipers kill more innocent children “accidentally”? Israel.
    which side’s soldiers managed to shoot two girls in the same school while sitting in class in just a matter of weeks? Israel.
    which side is more powerful? Israel.
    which side is more capable? Israel.
    which side has absolute control over the other’s borders and airspace? Israel.
    which side holds thousands of the other’s people in prisons? Israel.
    which side holds the other’s elected representatives in prisons? Israel.
    which side stands against the other’s right to function as a democracy? Israel.
    which side has a state? Israel.
    which side has prevented the other from having a state for the past 60 decades? Israel.

    The sad part, everybody is here debating the recent “escalation in violence” in Gaza, but the reality is, the situation in Gaza has been just as bad even during the “truce.”

    Israel and its apologists make it sound like all they are giving Gazans and Hamas is these past two days’ air strikes in return for the rockets that Hamas fires into Israeli towns, when in fact, even without the rockets, Israel gives Gazans an occupation, an open air prison, a suffocating siege, border closures and restrictions on movement and travel, in addition to imprisonment of elected officials whom the people have chosen to do integral parts of development in-house.

  87. Sand Ape, I do see that you are a person with ideas and a good heart. Many of your ideas are excellent, but I think very hard to implement. I think that all of us everywhere would like to get rid of our ineffective, selfish, power-hungry leaders, but how? Difficult, see what I mean? On another topic that you brought up: there is a strong Pro-Palestinian party in Israel, and I will tell you honestly that in my conversations with Israelis, I have never heard anyone express hatred of the Palestinians, only dismay that there has not been resolution to the conflict and deep frustration about the lack of progress in improving things. There are many positive things that happen in Israel, and these don’t get much press admittedly. Routinely, Palestinians receive medical care in Israel. There was a reporter who covered the story of Palestinians seeking medical care in Israel. He fully expected in every way to find that those in need were denied care or made to wait for long periods of time, etc. He reported that he did not find this to be true, in fact, he found the opposite. When there are cases where this occurs, it usually makes the news in Israel and there is an outcry and protest. No rational person wishes these kinds of things to occur. Prisoners in Israel are treated well, and that is surely not the case in many countries. How does Israel make itself loved? How is Israel a belligerent nation? Because it tries to exist? I have been watching very carefully over the past three years and I have seen Israel make many overtures for peace. I have felt very hopeful that Abbas could make a positive change, but I have not seen opportunities for peace with Hamas at any point. Now I do agree with you that there is so much that should be done to promote peace. No opportunity to do good for one’s neighbor should ever pass without action. I agree. But first there has to be a stop to the daily violence from Hamas, at least, dear Sand Ape, that is how I see it.

  88. Sam -
    You may be over it but the Arab and Muslim world isn’t. Al Jazeera, Arabiya, etc.. sure as hell isn’t over it… this gangbusters for their ratings and ranting… nothing could be better for them this is like sweeps week for them Arab style… Israel in frontal assault well NOTHING could be better for them, Hamas, Hezbollah and the radicals….. it’s all there good for.
    And the Egyptians that live here in town, supposedly smart, eat up Al Jazeera’s simpleton nonsense logic which basically says the Israelis are the worst brute criminals that only want to kill poor Arabs for the hell of it….. this even though Olmert an admitted peace dov Meretz style went on Al Arabiya and begged the people of Gaza to stop firing the rockets and not listen to their leaders in Hamas… who are leading them down a road of tragedy and despair bcs Israel is stronger than them and doesn’t want to use their force on them…..

    Also, an Israel ground invasion will be victorious. Gaza isn’t southern Lebanon, Hamas isn’t Hezbollah, and Israel knows the terrain of Gaza very well…. it will however awake the next beneficiaries of this war, the useless blowhard UN and EUnicks who will once again delude themselves to the fact that they actually have a purpose and point.

  89. Thanks all the same Lynne but as anonymousrex pointed out, Israel is the more developed nation., so it needs to back off first.

    leo i said it might take upto 20 years at least. What Israel did is I agree a start. But pulling out of Gaza and making it the worlds largest concentration camp doesnt count. I said try using restraint until Israeli deaths reach a mere 20% of that inflicted on Arabs. Try the 67 borders. Win your neighbours over even if they fight you day and night. Only after seeing it from their point of view and willing to take a look and actually feeling sympathetic, can you say that you are really ready to make concessions for peace.

    Capiche?

    I know it is very hard but it is not impossible!

    That’s the price of peace!

  90. Alanza…

    “It’s easy to say you’re “over it” when your life hasn’t been severely distorted by raids, intense border checks, and embargos by a population that pushed your grandparents from their land and has denied them right to return”

    I assume you are referring to the way the Arabs treated the Iraqi Jews in 1951 and about 1000 other similar incidences in our history in the Muslim and Christian world?

    Oh…I forgot…in our case you would have to add wholesale slaughter, outright genocide, torture, theft, murder, rape, demonization, wholesale expulsions, dhimmi status.

    I am sick of that argument…meet the Palestinians…the only group of people in the first 50 years of the 20th century that got caught up in the utter transformations of the world map…the only ones…

    And my friend…once again…taking NO responsibility for the shit mess they are in and keep themselves in…

    I know the anti-Israels here will only accept words that they want to hear…well OK…I will confess for all Israelis

    1. We love to kill…it feels great…we dream of it.

    2. We love it when our kids have to toss away years of their lives for mandatory army service

    3. Checkpoints…the BEST…sitting all day in the hot sun making Palestinians go topless…not checking for bombs of course…we just have this shared sexual fantasy we all masturbate to…yummy yummy…

    4. Bombing Gaza is not seen as a survival mechanism…in truth we all treat it like a video game…pow pow…got one…hey extra points…shrapnel hit that little kid…

    5. Getting searched ourselves every time we walk into a store, airport, restaruant, ice cream joint, wedding…We like it…it makes us HORNY having those handsome young security guys feel us up…Oy vey …I have a boner right now just thinking about it.

    6. Giving back Gaza, the Sinai was all a ruse…you suckers…don’t you know we have poisoned the sands with Jew dust…in 30 more years every Arab that touches those lands will have an overwhelming urge to eat chopped liver and dance the hora.

    I could go on…but OK…I will admit…OK…I confess…we all LOVE this type of life…We love the army, we love to kill, we love to search, we love 60% of our money to go to the military, we love 25 years of army service, we love your rockets and you exploding backpacks…nothing could be better…NOTHING…we love living in a place where we can hardly cross the border, we love having security guards at our parties and places of worship…anywhere in the world…it is cool…makes us feel important.

    We are evil…we are evil, evil, evil…we want to drink your blood…It is almost Passover…we need for our matazh….our God demands it…what is matazah without fresh Arab blood? Yuk! SO DRY…

    We wake in the morning and go through every motion thinking about how we can hurt you…and it is GOOD…it feels good, good, good. It is all I ever think about…not kids, college, food, work, health, God, smog, good porno…NO…every breathing minute we think about how to make life hard for Palestinians…it is all we live for.

    There…I said it…ignore these other liars with their lies about just wanting a normal life we decent neighbors…LIESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

    ALL LIES

  91. The name's Sand_Ape says:

    OKAY thanks all the same Lynne but as anonymousrex pointed out, Israel is the more developed nation., so it needs to back off first.

    Leo I said it might take upto 20 years at least. What Israel did is I agree a start. But pulling out of Gaza and making it the worlds largest concentration camp doesnt count. I said try using restraint until Israeli deaths reach a mere 20% of that inflicted on Arabs. Try the 67 borders. Win your neighbours over even if they fight you day and night. Only after seeing it from their point of view and willing to take a look and actually feeling sympathetic, can you say that you are really ready to make concessions for peace.

    Capiche?

    I know it is very hard but it is not impossible!

    That’s the price of peace! But the price ofr no peace i assure you could be much higher as i am sure you already know.

  92. Anonymousrex says:

    Imprisoned, humiliated and poorly treated, they acted out of desperation. Their attacks upon their oppressors were designed less to kill them than to simply bring media and world attention upon their plight. They had to change the dynamics of their situation or they’d face ten more years of the same. This is not a description of Hamas’ recent rocket attacks but an account of the 1971 prison riot at the Attica Correctional Facility in western New York state.

    From Political Bull: http://www.politicalbull.net/israel_versus_gaza_a_ridiculous_war.html

    Baltar: I mean, I told you and I told you. But to what end? Too secure in your smug superiority to listen. Too comfortable in your predictions of success to even consider the possibility of defeat. And where are we now? And more to the point, where’s Laura Roslin? Where’s Tom Zarek? At large. Whereabouts unknown. Free at any rate. Probably with Colonel Tigh. Solidifying the insurgency’s hold over the public’s imagination.

    Three: What would you have us do, Gaius?

    Baltar: Leave. Pack up your Centurions and go. Please, go.

    Three: And then what? What would you do if we really just left you here? You’d live out your lives in peace and never trouble yourselves with thoughts of us again? Or would you raise your children with stories of the Cylon? The mechanical slaves who once did your bidding only to turn against you. Killers who committed genocide against your race. And occupiers of this city until we just ran away. Would you tell them to tell the story to their children? And to their children’s children? And nurse a dream of vengeance down through the years so that one day they could just go out into the stars and hunt the Cylon once more.

    Baltar: Blood for blood. It has to stop one day.

    From the best show on television: Battlestar Galactica. But Lynne, don’t even think of coming back with the argument that Israel did indeed “pack its centurions and leave” when it “left” Gaza; even the Cylones knew that would not have counted.

  93. To God on high:

    “What Israel did is I agree a start. But pulling out of Gaza and making it the worlds largest concentration camp doesnt count. I said try using restraint until Israeli deaths reach a mere 20% of that inflicted on Arabs. Try the 67 borders. Win your neighbours over even if they fight you day and night.”

    Dear Lord,

    I truly believe only You can explain this “logic”. This might be the most bizarre comment I have ever heard in my life…and I have worked with psych. cases for over 30 years.

    Respectfully

    Howie

    P.S.

    Dear Neighbor…

    That bomb you launched into my house and killed my wife and kids…well…geez…I understand your hurt feelings…golly gee willikers. Ah…can I bring you some coffee? Oh…you spit in my face….well aren’t you just the feisty one…doggone you…you big silly boy you. What? Oh golly wolly sure we can do this another 20 years…by the way…my sister and her kids live at 555 E. Main…could you please try to at least make it a quick and painless death? Huh…just a little torture first you say? OK…well heck…what are neighbors for.

    Yours truly

    Ned Flanndersberg

    PPS

    Capiche?

  94. Sand Ape, I hope that you do not think that I am arguing—I’m just trying to respond. Yes, Israel is the more developed nation, but it does not follow that they should allow rockets to be shot into Israel every day. Those people that are being shot at are traumatized, and if they are hit, then they are injured or dead. What should Israel wait for? For Hamas to get better rockets? They are already shooting rockets that will go further distances and this, I think, was a consideration in taking action now. No single nation in the world would allow rockets to be shot into it daily. None! If these rockets were aimed at you, you’d expect something to be done about it. A few years ago, when Israel left Gaza, this action seemed to be interpreted differently by the Israelis and the people in Gaza. For most Israelis, this was a good step toward further cooperation, the hope of joint projects to enhance the well-being of all, a strong step toward peace—a beginning, a hope for peace. The people in Gaza seem to see the action as their pushing the Israelis out in defeat, which was clearly not the case. With Abbas, I thought that there was hope for peace, with Hamas, no. If they ever made a statement that they were willing to work for peace with Israel, I missed it! If Gaza is like a concentration camp (and it is NOT, though it is not good), the fault lies with Hamas that they were unwilling to make any compromises or to work for peace at any time. Israel cannot do this alone; it must have a partner in peace. If things could settle down and there would be a peace agreement, then I would expect Israel and the Palestinians to do all that they could possibly do to make things work out. If this misplaced energy could be directed at doing good for the people, much could be accomplished. I don’t want this to take 20 years. A whole generation of children deserve better than this, and I mean Palestinian and Israeli children. Does this seem reasonable?

  95. Anonymousrex says:

    No single nation in the world would allow rockets to be shot into it daily. None!

    First, you speak as if these rockets have been unprovoked. If an alien were to land on this planet and read your words, they would think that Israel was defending itself against some other state that decided to first fire rockets at it for fun.

    Second, no rockets have been fired from the West Bank. Why did Israel not leave the West Bank instead of “leaving” Gaza? Doesn’t make any sense! On the contrary, it keeps stealing land from it. No wonder you love Abbas better than Hamas!

    Finally, before worrying about Israel’s little Qassams problem, why aren’t you worrying about the Palestinians much much bigger problems? If no nation should deal with daily rockets on its land, what about those people who are not even allowed to establish their nation with sovereignty over it to begin with, let alone be imprisoned like the way Gazans have been?

    Also, would it have been less traumatizing to the Israelis if Hamas instead flew F-16s and broke the sound barrier over Sderot at night to scare off the entire population there? Would Israeli kids be less traumatized if Hamas snipers sat in observation posts outside their cities and took turns in sniping the children while they sat in their class rooms?

    Would it be less traumatizing if Hamas bulldozed the house of every family who has a son or daughter who works for the occupation forces?

    Hamas could do all these things, if it had the means, and you would not have any right in calling it out for targeting civilians, because all these things are tactics that have been long employed the Israeli “Defense” Forces against the Palestinians.

  96. Sorry it doesnt sound good to me at all. What about 90% of civilians killed over the last 60 years. Gaza is the most densely populated place in the world because Israel corrals them all together. They don’t use human shields as purported. The IDF must admit that yes, although they do defend, but mostly they are a conquering army and they are not in a state of war, they are in a state of occupation.

    It was an easy way out for Israel if it would follow a plan like mine, by withdrawing to the pre 67 borders including the towns that Haggana settlers took by force when they were branded as terrorists.

    A few hundred dead Israeli’s and execution of restraint they are killed is the only thing that can amaze even Ahmedinajad. So basically yes, the town of Sderot should be blown of the map to even the score 5%. Never mind the conflicts in the last 20 years. It goes back, way back to the early Gestapo like days of the birth of Israel. Holocaust survivors were accustomed to horror and had no problem inflicting it on non Jewish Arabs.

    this is no doubt unacceptable to you and all of Israel. The problem is too deep rooted.

    Let history be the testament to what comes. Jews have been endlessly chastised by God time and time again and I don’t think it will stop now with such a huge blunder of what is called “Occupied Palestine.” Preventing a people from visiting the wholly land is a huge crime.

    Arabs fight holly war, Jews fight for a homeland to practise democracy ie such things as gay rights. No religious minority has the right to bar another from Jerusalem but Israel has. Even though Jews have always roamed the Arab world pretty freely before the creation of the 20th century Zion.

    I am sorry, I just realized that Israel was wrong and I can’t turn the other cheek anymore.

    Watch and listen to Hebrew soldiers who just couldn’t either. Who were bigger advocates of Israel than even you or I were. You seem like a nice person too Lynne, I hope one day you see the light.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37MFa7ZKQWo&feature=channel_page

  97. Sandape

    “Sorry it doesnt sound good to me at all. What about 90% of civilians killed over the last 60 years. Gaza is the most densely populated place in the world because Israel corrals them all together. They don’t use human shields as purported”

    Lies…

    Lies

    Lies

    Plain flat distorted propoganda and flat out lies…MOST POPULATED PLACE ON EARTH.

    Lie….go to Calcutta dude…Bombay (no don’t go there…terrorists are killing dangerous Chabad types and Hindus and Germans and Malyasians…all for the Palestinian cause..

    Stop lying…this is no longer a discussion if you just flat out lie

    90% civilians…based on what? The Hamas Research Foundation?

    They don’t use human shields…

    More lies

    Lies

    Enough…Lynne…drop this guy because he has now moved away from trying to come to some type of understanding and is just spouting the worst, fouliest and ugliest of lies.

    Lies

  98. The most crowded place on earth…

    How can the dude get any respect with those silly comments…just not worth your time Lynne…

    90% civilians…good Lawd…there must be a Hamas Google or something..

    No human shields..

    The discussion now deteriorates into just sophomoric lameness.

  99. Anonymousrex says:

    Jay Randolph said,

    My self, if you killed someone in my family I would want your family and every friend to be killed

    Obviously you know nothing about this conflict, because this could be used as an excuse by Arabs to kill every Israeli they see.

    It might not be an exaggeration to say that every single Palestinian has more than one family member whose innocent life was taken by an Israeli.

  100. Ape…if you are going to add to the debate…don’t just make up stuff or repeat B.S. you have heard.

    Most dense population centers in the world are:

    1. Mumbai (Bombai’s new name), India – the largest city in Maharashtra state.

    Area: 484 sq km; population: 14.35 million people; population density: 29 650 people – sq km.

    2. Kolkata (Kalkuta’s new name), India – the country’s fourth largest city.

    Area: 531 sq km; population: 12.7 million people; population density: 23 900 people a sq km.

    3. Karachi, Pakistan – the country’s largest city and economic centre.

    Area: 531 sq km; population: 9.8 million people; population density: 18 900 people a sq km.

    4. Lagos, Nigeria – Africa’s second largest city after Cairo, Nigeria’s financial centre, production of textiles, high tech and food is focused there.

    Area: 518 sq km; population: 13.4 million people; population density: 18 150 people a sq km.

    5. Shenzhen, China, the country’s second largest city.

    Area: 466 sq km; population: 8 million people; population density: 17 150 people a sq km.

    Others in the list are: Seoul, South Korea (16 700 people a sq km), Taipei, Taiwan (15 200 people a sq km), Chennai, India (14 350 people a sq km), Bogota, Columbia (13 500 people a sq km) and Shanghai, China (13 400 people a sq km

  101. Sand Ape, if I had my way, there would be no violence at all. I disagree with your assessment of Israel and I cannot understand why you think the way that you do. Anyone may visit the Holy Land in Israel. Visitors are made welcome. When in Israel, I always make a point to go to a town called Abu Ghosh to visit their wonderful and famous restaurants, and the residents of that town are held by all Israelis in high honor. Israel has a democracy. Arab-Israelis are able to practice their own religion, have their own schools, are free to own and operate businesses, are able to serve in the government. Jews are not free to live in peace in many Arab countries. In many countries, Jews were forced to flee or were killed. Arab-Israelis live as full members of the community in Israel, without fear and in safety.
    I was very much hoping that the Palestinians would take the last offer made by Israel to give them land to connect Gaza and the West Bank. This seemed essential to me that these areas be connected so that each could be developed to the full potential for the well-being of the Palestinians. But, the offer was not taken, to my great disappointment. Thank you for your last sentence, I know that we do not agree but I believe that you have a good heart. We must all of us try not to think too harshly of others.

  102. I should have said that Abu Gosh is an Arab-Israeli town near Jerusalem.

  103. The name’s Sand_Ape @ 88,

    “But pulling out of Gaza and making it the worlds largest concentration camp doesnt count.”

    Israel isolated itself from Gaza for a reason. Still, Israel supplies Gaza with many necessities despite all. So, if it is a concentration camp, as you say, then it is self-inflicted imprisonment.
    BTW, if you wish to see what real Palestinian concentration camp is go to Lebanon. And those guys are not even enemies to each other but freaking brothers.

    “I said try using restraint until Israeli deaths reach a mere 20% of that inflicted on Arabs.”

    I do not use Palestinian/Arab/Muslim logic. For me one dead Jew is one dead Jew too many.

    “Try the 67 borders. Win your neighbours over even if they fight you day and night. Only after seeing it from their point of view and willing to take look and actually feeling sympathetic, can you say that you are really ready to make concessions for peace.”

    Gaza is within 1967 borders (or is it 1948 borders). So? And whose heart am I suppose to win? Farfour’s?
    And like I said before, concessions for peace and numerous peace offers were made many time before, in 1948, in 1967 at Khartoum after 6-day war, Lebanon, Gaza, … What good did it do? Let’s try different approach, shell we? After all it seems to be working with Hezbollah so far.

    “Capiche?”

    Yeah, but I am better at English.

    “I know it is very hard but it is not impossible!

    That’s the price of peace! But the price ofr no peace i assure you could be much higher as i am sure you already know.”

    The only one thing is good about your post. You sincerely wish to solve the problem. Bad part is, you are too much of an idealist.

  104. That would be “The name’s Sand_Ape @ 93,”

    Sorry.

  105. the dedication you people have to such a useless debate is astonishing. reminds me of that bit from bash.org

    HEY EURAKARTE
    INSULT
    RETORT
    COUNTER-RETORT
    QUESTIONING OF SEXUAL PREFERENCE
    SUGGESTION TO SHUT THE FUCK UP
    NOTATION THAT YOU CREATE A VACUUM
    RIPOSTE
    ADDON RIPOSTE
    COUNTER-RIPOSTE
    COUNTER-COUNTER RIPOSTE
    NONSENSICAL STATEMENT INVOLVING PLANKTON
    RESPONSE TO RANDOM STATEMENT AND THREAT TO BAN OPPOSING SIDES
    WORDS OF PRAISE FOR FISHFOOD
    ACKNOWLEDGEMENT AND ACCEPTENCE OF TERMS

  106. theSamo,
    Thanks a lot man, you’re priceless, I’ve been trying to put my finger all day long on a word to describe those people above, but you got it right, “dedication” is the word, one painful, meaningless and humongous post after the other, just randomly pick any single post above and you might as well end up with a geography lesson from Howie @ 104 listing the name and population of some third world cities, why? I have no idea and I don’t care, but I’d guess that would be a response to someone else above him, who might have incorrectly stated that the population of Mumbai is 14.3 million and not 14.35 as he has so precisely stated.
    Sorry Howie, nothing personal man, I swear I just randomly chose your post, any other one would’ve been equally demonstrative.

  107. 110. Mohammed:

    Yes, these discussions usually end getting a bit out of hand, but after a while you DO tend to grasp at straws, trying to explain to someone that letting yourself be killed is not an answer to a conflict… ;)

  108. Anonymousrex says:

    Anyone may visit the Holy Land in Israel. Visitors are made welcome.

    What an imaginary world you live in, Lynne!

    As if Israel hadn’t just denied entry to the UN Human Rights Council investigator Richard Falk, who is an old professor of international law and poses zero threat to the security of Israel.

    Israel also denied entry to another professor before, Norman Finkelstein, who happens to be a Jewish American and the son of two Holocaust survivors!

    Why? Because these professors of international law and political science dared criticize Israel and call it out on its multitude of shameful actions and tactics.

  109. Anonymousrex says:

    Lynne said: “Anyone may visit the Holy Land in Israel. Visitors are made welcome.”

    What an imaginary world you live in, Lynne! As if Israel hadn’t just denied entry to the UN Human Rights Council investigator Richard Falk, who is an old professor of international law and poses zero threat to the security of Israel.

    Israel also denied entry to another professor before, Norman Finkelstein, who happens to be a Jewish American and the son of two Holocaust survivors!

    Why? Because these professors of international law and political science dared criticize Israel and call it out on its multitude of shameful actions and tactics.

  110. Anonymousrex says:

    “Anyone may visit the Holy Land in Israel. Visitors are made welcome.”

    What an imaginary world you live in, Lynne! As if Israel hadn’t just denied entry to the UN Human Rights Council investigator Richard Falk, who is an old professor of international law and poses zero threat to the security of Israel.

    Israel also denied entry to another professor before, Norman Finkelstein, who happens to be a Jewish American and the son of two Holocaust survivors!

    Why? Because these professors of international law and political science dared criticize Israel and call it out on its multitude of shameful actions and tactics.

  111. Anonymousrex's New Name? says:

    Lynne Said: “Anyone may visit the Holy Land in Israel. Visitors are made welcome.”

    What an imaginary world you live in, Lynne! As if Israel hadn’t just denied entry to the UN Human Rights Council investigator Richard Falk, who is an old professor of international law and poses zero threat to the security of Israel.

    Israel also denied entry to another professor before, Norman Finkelstein, who happens to be a Jewish American and the son of two Holocaust survivors!

    Why? Because these professors of international law and political science dared criticize Israel and call it out on its multitude of shameful actions and tactics.

  112. Lynne said that “anyone may visit the Holy Land in Israel. Visitors are made welcome.”

    What an imaginary world she lives in! As if Israel hadn’t just denied entry to the UN Human Rights Council investigator Richard Falk, who is an old professor of international law and poses zero threat to the security of Israel.

    Israel also denied entry to another professor before, Norman Finkelstein, who happens to be a Jewish American and the son of two Holocaust survivors!

    Why? Because these professors of international law and political science dared criticize Israel and call it out on its multitude of shameful actions and tactics.

  113. What an imaginary world Lynne lives in! As if Israel hadn’t just denied entry to the UNHRC investigator Richard Falk, who is an old professor of international law and poses zero threat to the security of Israel.

    Israel also denied entry to another professor before, Norman Finkelstein, who happens to be a Jewish American and the son of two Holocaust survivors!

    Why? Because these professors of international law and political science dared criticize Israel and call it out on its multitude of shameful actions and tactics.

  114. Anonymousrex says:

    What an imaginary world Lynne lives in! As if Israel hadn’t just denied entry to the UNHRC investigator Richard Falk, who is an old prof of international law and poses zero threat to the security of Israel.

    Israel also denied entry to another prof before, Norman Finkelstein, who happens to be the son of two Holocaust survivors!

    Why? Because these professors of international law and political science dared criticize Israel and call it out on its multitude of shameful actions and tactics.

  115. Anonymousrex says:

    Anyone may visit the Holy Land in Israel. Visitors are made welcome.

    What an imaginary world Lynne lives in! As if Israel hadn’t just denied entry to the UNHRC investigator Richard Falk, who is an old prof of international law and poses zero threat to the security of Israel.

    Israel also denied entry to another prof before, Norman Finkelstein, who happens to be the son of two Holocaust survivors!

    Why? Because these professors of international law and political science dared criticize Israel and call it out on its multitude of shameful actions and tactics.

  116. with all do respect every single one of you is blurting crap from a middle east history survey class or a talking point be it arab or israeli.

    SAY SOMETHING CLEAVER FOR GOD’S SAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  117. Anon, it’s time for YOU to say something clever. We are waiting for you to take the lead…

  118. When one tries to talk to his ideological opponent, he gets mocked for doing so and not finding a common ground in less than 419 key strokes.

    My opinion was that Israel started off deserving their own state because they are Jews and Jews truly do believe that they are the chosen superior people and that God has chosen them to be such. This mere religious belief has gotten them killed so many times through out history and that is not fair.

    Although some would say that a populace thriving on preferentialism and belief in supremacy should be eliminated. THAT IS THE CORE OF MURDER!

    Any group of people that tries to eradicate another race based on its religious beliefs deserves to be eradicated themselves and is no better than the race they are trying to eradicate. At least the Jews never harmed anyone before the creation of Israel.

    After the creation of Israel, passions inflamed and you have the resulting conflict of today. Israel has gone over board and is the worst enemy to itself.

    I see Israel conceding like South Africa did and giving the rule of law back to the people. The same way it was before the creation of Israel. Also dismantling its nuclear armory like SA did BTW, which Israel just so happened to help it develop.

    I guess Lynne, Howie, Leo, none of you took the time to hear even a small part of the documentary of the IDF soldiers screaming bloody genocide huh..
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37MFa7ZKQWo&feature=channel_page
    Try opening it you might learn something..

    You can’t just march into a land and take it and when the inhabitants fight back and lose, you claim it was taken from them fair and square. The creation of Israel and denying other religions entry into Jerusalem is a major sin full of arrogance and ignorance.

    Let the Zionists make israel a highly developed paradise like the assholes in South Africa did before before they gave it back.

    Psychology states that abandoned people end up abandoning people.

    Also that hurt people — end up hurting people. It is my understanding that Jews have been hurt in the past. Please correct me if I am wrong!

    I have debated on both sides of the fence and never have I felt it be more rewarding than being on the side of the oppressed, I wouldn’t change it for the world

  119. Roman Kalik says:

    Very expected, LMAO @ my old single minded Israeli comrades and their supporters alike.

    Ah, welcome back Herr Troll. Been a while. Which one of that multi-persona group were you, I wonder?

    And you’re still as predictable and repetitive as ever.

    Lynn… no point. Really. This guy’s been here a while. He’s a master of selective reading, circular arguments, and downright hatred. It’s like playing tennis when there’s a great big rubber wall in the middle of the field – you always lose, no matter how hard you try.

    Let a mere 300 Israelis die in the process of restraint, so what.

    Get rid of the bias that Israeli life is worth more than that of a Palestinian life.

    Interesting. So, basically, the Israeli state should throw aside one of its basic obligations – keeping Israeli civilians alive?

    Yeah, I’m sure the Israeli public is going to *love* that one. Sacrificing lives in The Name of Peace.

    You know, last time the border passes were all wide open and we greeted people with open arms, the Israeli death toll rose to four figures in a *very* short time frame.

    Dreams die when you blow them up.

    Start a pro Palestinian peace party or a left wing Holocaust party, do whatever it takes.

    Ah yes, *the* way forward.

    Thanks all the same Lynne but as anonymousrex pointed out, Israel is the more developed nation., so it needs to back off first.

    Ah yes, gestures… being the big guy… letting your ass get shot because you want people to see your smile.

    It goes back, way back to the early Gestapo like days of the birth of Israel. Holocaust survivors were accustomed to horror and had no problem inflicting it on non Jewish Arabs.

    Jews have been endlessly chastised by God time and time again and I don’t think it will stop now with such a huge blunder of what is called “Occupied Palestine.”

    Arabs fight holly war, Jews fight for a homeland to practise democracy ie such things as gay rights.

    I am sorry, I just realized that Israel was wrong and I can’t turn the other cheek anymore.


    *waves* I knew I recognized those old slurs and circular arguments! How’s it going, old fella me troll?

    Lynn, you’re being manipulated by a troll who once posted an endless repetitive torrent of bile and hate-filled replies on this blog, bringing Sandmonkey rather close to shutting down the comment section.

    You’re being played. You’re being played by a supposedly “sympathetic voice”, a “good guy”. And yet I’m amazed you don’t see the telltale signs.

    I thought you remembered this guy, Howie.

    #106 Adam B,

    Yes, these discussions usually end getting a bit out of hand, but after a while you DO tend to grasp at straws, trying to explain to someone that letting yourself be killed is not an answer to a conflict… ;)

    I think someone stole the straws. Must’ve been some Jew or somethin’.

  120. Roman Kalik says:

    Psychology states that abandoned people end up abandoning people.

    Also that hurt people — end up hurting people. It is my understanding that Jews have been hurt in the past. Please correct me if I am wrong!

    I have debated on both sides of the fence and never have I felt it be more rewarding than being on the side of the oppressed, I wouldn’t change it for the world

    Ah, two-penny bullshit… business as usual, then?

  121. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO at the right wing FBI agent called Roman Kalik, profiling me and making insinuations. You are not very pleased by my effective debating style which has made you quiver with anxiety like a small child in the midst of a tantrum. Banging your head on the floor in agony over the painful truth that seeps through to your bones just shows how effective my well researched debates are in hitting home.

    Please keep claiming the absurd lol.

    I have no more to say, RK has more than effectively outdone himself and catapulted my argument higher into the stratosphere than I could have ever imagined by trying to surgically disseminate my arguments one by one in the copy/paste style of child in a tantrum when not getting his way. Claiming I am the boogie man…

    Open the link for Christ’s sake and don’t be distracted by the Tomfoolery http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37MFa7ZKQWo&feature=channel_page
    I dare any of you to open the youtube link and listen. Then talk!!!!

    LOLOL BEYOND PRECIOUS, THANKS FOR LEADING BY EXAMPLE AND FOR PROVING THE EFFECTIVENESS OF MY DEBATE AND WHY WHEN THEY FALL ON DEAF EARS THE REACTION IS INCURSION.

    Remember the golden rule, Ignorance and arrogance perishes :D
    :)

  122. Mona has your answer, SM:

    “Israel is the opium of the people.”

  123. Roman Kalik says:

    Still thinking rather highly of yourself, I see. Don’t you get tired from patting yourself on the back?

    Remember the golden rule, Ignorance and arrogance perishes

    And yet you are a true repository of data that invalidates that theorem.

  124. RK…

    Naw…I didn’t recognize “it”…oh well…Is it Twoshit again? Well if so…I got suckered…

    So be it

  125. haha did you just contradict yourself again with that last line.
    “And yet you are a true repository of data that invalidates that theorem.”
    What a no brainer, you just contradicted yourself lolol.

    As I said to you in the other thread…”Kalik you belong in ben Gurion University as head of ploitcal Zionist propoganda or the curator of a local holocaust museum lol.”

  126. No one has the balls to open up and watch the damn link…hmm I wonder why , I wonder why ?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37MFa7ZKQWo&feature=channel_page

    I dare any of you to open the link and watch it, I assure you it is not a virus. Are you that scared that you can’t bare to watch the truth. Shut your eyes if it hurts you to here jewish zionists repent for the evil they partook in. Then try and retort these members of your own IDF army, then talk people!!!!

    Thanks for the encore Rk..I’m through here!

  127. Azlana:

    You said “a population that pushed your grandparents from their land and has denied them right to return”

    The Arabs were hardly the only people to see their land taken by foreigners during the wars of the last century. You need only to look at a map before and after the World Wars. Germany lost ONE-THIRD of its land to Poland. Russia swiped a large chunk of Poland’s territory. The Turks were stripped of their empire. etc … etc …All of these ‘thefts’ created millions of refugees who were forced to move elsewhere. All were resettled in new places and they and their children given citizenship. None were kept in camps for 60 years for the purposes of propaganda. Nor do their ancestral homelands demand a ‘right of return’ for their second, third and fourth generation descendants.

    Azlana, you should ask yourself why if everyone else can move on with their lives and accept their territorial losses why can’t the Arabs and Palestinians?

  128. Roman Kalik says:

    haha did you just contradict yourself again with that last line.

    Not in the slightest. You are, after all, still here, alive, and rather well. And still without those basic reading comprehension skills, I see.

    Kalik you belong in ben Gurion University

    Funny you should say that… That’s where I got my B.Sc.

    Let me guess… you latched onto the name based on preconceived notions, bias, and and a general negative reaction to anything Israel?

    At least you’re predictable.

  129. Roman kalik…Please “FLUSH!”

  130. Xylo,
    Interesting examples you chose to counter my argument that Palestinians have a right to rebel against Israel. Your first example, Germany losing land to Poland, happened in two steps: defeats in World Wars One and Two. In these wars, Germany was the both agressor and the loser. Lost land to Poland in The Versaille Treaty did not go down so well for the Germans as you try to imply, it was a major cause for Gemany starting the Second World War. Germany also didn’t recognize the new borders with Poland until 1990, that’s over forty years of not moving on. Yes, Poland lost land to Russia, but it was also the same time that it gained the territory from Germany. You win some you lose some. Plus, a lot of the displaced people were Jews who were practically begged by Israel to immigrate. (By the way, were you aware that the early Zionists protested the US offering unlimited numbers of Jewish refugees from the Holocaust entrance into the US because the Zionists wanted to beef up the numbers of Jews in Isarel? So much for caring about Holocaust victims more than political goals.) The Ottomans lost their EMPIRE. It was an empire made of various ethnicities and cultures that were granted autonomy. The outer provinces of the empire had very few Turks, this is one of the main reasons the empire fell apart. Turks returned to what is now Turkey and their neighbors haven’t bombarded them. The Palestinians would be so lucky to have the rich agricultural lands of Turkey or the restoration projects that the Allied forces undertook to rebuild Germany. Instead they are stuck on shitty land that Israel just won’t leave alone. As I said before, the founding fathers started a revolution over taxes, why is it so hard for people to see the justifications of the Palestinian resistance?

  131. ‘Turks returned to what is now Turkey and their neighbors haven’t bombarded them. ‘

    now do you really wanna make ‘hot mess’ (forgive me pop saying du jour) statements like that…

    i have a few armenians and greek with steam coming out of their ears ready to debate you on the pile of dookie you’ve just stepped in!

  132. “(By the way, were you aware that the early Zionists protested the US offering unlimited numbers of Jewish refugees from the Holocaust entrance into the US because the Zionists wanted to beef up the numbers of Jews in Isarel? So much for caring about Holocaust victims more than political goals.)”

    Wrong, there is no place like home.

    “why is it so hard for people to see the justifications of the Palestinian resistance?”

    No, not hard at all.
    It is just that I cherish my ass and collective ass of my kind much more.
    So, unless and until Palestinians will agree to live in peace we will have this predicament.
    Do not expect me to roll over an die just because you believe it is justified.

  133. Azlana you are a diamond in the ruff.

    If you are a female, please marry me.

    If you are a male, please consider letting me marry a female of your lineage!

    Igmorance rules, so don’t try to hard to convince the decendants of ignoramous. Ignorrance runs rampant in these parts.

    But my hats off to you, just when I thought I was surrounded my impending gloom : )

  134. at least the jews always had roots in the holyland.

    the turks just upped and moved horseback from central asia, the land of steak tartar and borat, settled in what used to be eastern greater greece and western armenia. they pitched tents slaughter a few million people and called it home!

  135. HEY!
    Scum is MINE, Lynne, Back OFF!
    Miss you Scummie, I happen to think Lynn is tedders, BTW.
    XOXO
    :D
    Be Nice
    God Bless You

    PS-will you kindly choose a name and stick with it?
    confuzion

  136. Yeah,
    and learn your grammar:
    to is not the same as too.

  137. Roman Kalik says:

    Plus, a lot of the displaced people were Jews

    A lot? Yes. Certainly not even close to a majority, though. Most of the Jews of Europe were dead by the end of WWII.

    Population displacement was a far more widespread occurrence as a result of WWII, be it in Poland, Ukraine, former territories of Eastern Germany… fairly large chunks of Eastern Europe all around, really. The Soviet Union certainly cemented some of those population shifts later on, as the end result often suited the regime for political reasons.

    In fact, the largest population shift was of ethnic Germans in the post-WWII era. Over 10 million ethnic Germans were expelled to ensure that Germany’s neighbors would not be affected by a possible resurgence of German nationalism – to ensure their national integrity and future stability. Seven million were expelled from what was once parts of Eastern Germany. Nearly 3 million from Czechoslovakia.

    Post-WWII Europe was *rebuilt* around ethnic cleansing.

    who were practically begged by Israel to immigrate. (By the way, were you aware that the early Zionists protested the US offering unlimited numbers of Jewish refugees from the Holocaust entrance into the US because the Zionists wanted to beef up the numbers of Jews in Isarel? So much for caring about Holocaust victims more than political goals.)

    You must be reading a different set of history books than the rest of us. The original plan by the Allies was to return the surviving Jewish population of Europe to their countries of origin. Few of the survivors liked that particular idea.

    And none of the Allies were truly interested in integrating a small horde of walking skeletons. So people either found their way in smuggler ships to Palestine (approximately 250,000 people in total), the one place where they had a chance and actual *hope* back then, and approximately the same number of Jews remained in DP camps for years.

    Eventually, most of those immigrated to the newly-founded state of Israel. The second largest group made it to the US in a rather thin trickle that eventually burst in the Fifties. The rest just… spread around.

    I’m more than interested in seeing proof of what you say about political leaders in Israel *protesting* about US *immigration policies*. I find it likely that they protested about Jews immigrating en-masse to another reality of being a tiny yet noticeable minority somewhere – which, at the time, had proven to be a rather disastrous policy for the continued survival of Jews.

  138. The Turks were STRIPPED of their empire by the victors – that is how the Europeans gained control of North Africa and Palestine.

    Many peoples totally in the millions (the vast majority of which were non-Jews contrary to your post) were forced from the homes and resettled in other countries. From the Greek & Turks in the early 1920s to the 15 million Germans driven out from what had been the Eastern part of Germany & the Sudeentland in Czechsolvakia to the millions of Hindus & Moslems forced to flee after Pakistan broke from India to the better then half million Jews in Arabic countries forced out after the creation of Israel. In all these case, rather than harp on age-old grievances, or pander to hypernationalist sentiments, the governments and political classes concerned have agreed that what was lost was unrecoverable, and the best way forward was to establish relations with old enemies, rather than continue with irrendentist claims that contributed to a self-perpetuating and endless state of conflict.

    -There’s a lesson to be learnt here. The Germans have not been launching wars or rockets or suicide bombers against the Poles for all those decades. They have, for all intents and purposes ‘gotten over it.’

    The violence of Palestinian resistance has led to many more Palestinian dead than Israeli; it has reduced their per capita income from nearly 25% of the Israeli average to less than 10%; it has resulted in years of misery and in them being further from their goals than at any time in the last 20 years. The campaign of suicide bombing has made them monsters and deeply warped Palestinian morality, while at the same time politically paralysing moderate Palestinian resistance. In short, violent resistance has been a disaster for the Palestinian people, whereas a dignified, well-run non-violent resistance would gain them support from all over the world.

  139. The Germans are not bad people now.

  140. The Lord knows The German children still feel the guilt.

  141. ‘From the Greek & Turks in the early 1920s’

    what the hell are you talking about, a pseudo intellectual analysis that is an insult to any greek or armenian. you simply forget to mention the first ethnic cleansing of the 20th century and dismiss the slaughter of people as population shifts.

    get your facts straight!

  142. azlama

    “Instead they are stuck on shitty land that Israel just won’t leave alone”

    if the land is so shitty how come the Isrealis have done so well with it?

  143. I love how they keep comparing what Israel is doing to ottoman Turks or Nazi Hitler or Genghis khan. They wonder why we Palestinians don’t just accept it and roll over and die. Depriving their descendants of their respective faiths and heritage.

    Hurt people hurt people and abandoned people abandon people. It is a vicious circle that happens even among the wordls most well to do.

  144. Spiro;

    See this helpful link to clarify your facts:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Greece_and_Turkey

  145. Oh, and there is not the same as their.

  146. Didn’t mean to say “we” Palestinians. I just got carried away imagining the pain the Gazans must be going through right now! I am not Palestinian, but if I was, I would be far more displaced than any Jew ever was.

  147. dear la vaca,

    there was nothing amicable about that exchange, the turks had no business being in asia minor to begin with. but i guess we rolled over and accepted our fate.

    to mention it as a form of reconciliation is revisionist!!!! wikipedia?!?!?!? at least use something reliable.

  148. Roman, re: comment 118 LOL. This is a grim topic; I needed something to make me smile :)

  149. way too much ethnic strife going on in this thread!!!! can’t we all just get along!

  150. Bravo Rightwing Kalik, you got Lynn another pacifist to sell out and join the zionist blind following. You deserve a medal or how about some (stolen) falafel or homos that has been around for centuries that Israel claims are israeli national l– olol — dishes.

    Mongors….

  151. Oxford Anti-Semitary says:

    GOLDWIN SMITH, Professor of Modern History at Oxford, wrote in Nineteenth Century, October 1881
    “The Jew alone regard his race as superior to humanity, and looks forward not to its ultimate union with other races, but to its triumph over them all and to its final ascendancy under the leadership of a tribal Messiah.”

    “Hi guys, for those of you in the UK, dont forget 9pm tonight C4, documentary about Tom Hurndall, an ISM member who was brutally shot by the IDF whilst protecting Palestinian children from gunfire. Please watch if you can…”

  152. Xylo,
    A lot of the Ottoman territories were lost to nationalist movements- just look at the Balkans. Of course, European invovlement helped speed things along. My point is that ethnic Turks had the Turkish heartland to return to- and they fought for it until they got it. This is how Ataturk rose to stardom. I mean no offense to Armenians and Greeks. I know that the fall of the Ottoman Empire led to awful population transfers and mass killings of Armenians. My point is that the Turks lost land that wasn’t inhabited by Turks and they were able to hold onto a sizeable autonomous country. They fought the Italians and Greeks to keep it. So don’t use the Ottoman Empire as an example of people who have gotten over lost land. They fought a war over their heartland- just like the Palestinians are doing today.

    It’s really funny that you think the division of India and Pakistan is a good example of “getting over it.” Things are anything but amicable between those two nations. Ever hear of a province called Kashmir?

    Keep in mind that Gaza and the West Bank are not connected, and Israel has been keeping the borders of the two territories virturally shut. This includes letting supplies into Palestine. Palestinians have struggled to obtain food and cooking oil. Recently they had to kill thousands of chicks because there was not enough chicken feed allowed to come in.

    Vaca, Israel has done well with the land it took because it has taken the most suitable land for agriculture. Palestinians live in some of the most arid parts. It also doesn’t have a large nation sealing its borders. Plus, it receives massive amounts of foreign aid from the US. And it’s economy still isn’t that great, it’s currency suffers from inflation.

    Sand Ape,
    Thanks for the support. I like your comments. I’m married, but I’m sure another informed person will come along.

  153. Oxford Anti-Semitary says:

    Definition of Jewish Self Determination:
    1.) We are superior to you because God really did say that we are superior to you, although we don’t like to flaunt it.
    2.) We will even go against God if he dare change his mind on us after making us superior.
    3.) Hence our trademark capitulation to our enemies and victims alike.
    4.) Being abandoned and chastised by God and the world time and time again has sprung us into dire desperation and the creation of the state of Israel in your grandma’s back yard so that we can fall on its geographical and theological roots to Judaism. And now genocidal roots!

  154. lefty DON’T MESS WITH THE ZOHAN—–CHOOMUS MIGHT BE ARABIC BUT THE ISRAELIS HAVE TAKEN IT GLOBAL AND WITH STYLE. Here in NY we have a company called ELI AND ALI that distributes everywhere.

  155. ‘Palestinians live in some of the most arid parts.’

    thats why they put those greenhouses in gaza to good use, you know the ones that Mort Zuckerman generously donated to the palestinians two years ago.

  156. dear arizona lana,

    you are so misguided when it comes to what is the ‘turkish heartland’

    Azerbaijan (to an extent)
    Kazakhstan
    Kyrgyzstan
    Turkmenistan
    Uzbekistan

    but not turkey that was what spiro was trying to tell you!

  157. you are using a nation that has less of a claim for the land it seized than israel as your example of peace and stability. israel did exist at one point in history and that gave the zionist a moral authority that the ottomans certainly lacked.

  158. deema,
    Go back and read the whole thread. I’m responding to a post by Xylo that used the fall of the Ottoman Empire as an example of people “getting over” lost territory. Xylo’s point is that Palestinians should get over losing land to Israel. I didn’t choose the example, Xylo did. I’m trying to disprove Xylo’s claim that Turkey is a comparable example. Stop barking of the wrong tree.

  159. I meant “Stop barking up the wrong tree.”

  160. Oxford Anti-Semitary,

    I noticed you made identical posts on different threads.

    Are those your thoughts or are you just parroting somebody else?

    You do not expect us take you seriously, do you?

    PS. This post will be repeated elsewhere.

  161. azlana : (
    too bad,
    but you’re more than welcome none the less, anytime sis!

    Remember the saying, you can fool all the people some of the time and you can fool some of the people all the time, but you can’t fool all the people all the time?
    The Israel lobby wont last forever. Power corrupts remember and absolute power corrupts absolutely. The world is bound to open its eyes one day!

  162. The problem with the comparrison a few posts up is that no Palestine, as a country, existed before the creation of the state of Israel. Up until 1947, disregarding the occupation of the tyrkish empire or the subsequent mandate of Britain given to it by the League of Nations, no national state had existed in the area. Damascus was the local powerhouse and religious center, and, having just gotten rid of the french mandate in 1946, were eager to spread their influence in the area. It obviously did not sit well with them that an influx in jewish settlers (many of whom were educated europeans with modern ideas of freedom and free-thinking) predicted a future sovereign state right on their doorstep, and so they did everything in their power to prevent this from happening. An open military intervention was out of the question, as per the british presence, so they took to convincing the local arabs (mostly uneducated farmers and goatherders) that it was their religious duty to throw out their jewish neighbours, whom they had so far lived peacefully side by side with, and whose increased presence had recently led to a substantial rise in wealth and living standards. Jump to 1948, when the state of Isarel has been proclaimed where no state existed before, and an arab uprissing against the new jewish state had failed. Damascus and other arab leaders in the area incites the palestinian arabs to leave their ancestral land so as to make it easier for the combined arab armies to invade Israel, whereafter they could supposedly return to their land as masters; in reality as puppets of the neighbouring states. The arab victory never came to be, and thus were millions of palestinian arabs stuck in neighbouring countries, unwanted by the local population, and unable to return home due to the heightened level of conflict and their newly nutured hatred of the jews.

    A brief history to put the plight of the palestinian people into perspective – it’s off the top of my head, so there may be ommitments and little errors, but on the whole it should be accurate enough.

    This is not the first place in world history such a situation has occured. Sure, the situation and background may differ somewhat from the european mess after WW2, but the realities are the same. Land has been gambled, fought over, and lost. We can disagree about the founding of Israel and it’s jewish roots as opposed to a more non-ethinic entity, but the fact of the matter is that we have a sovereign state, which judicially, logistically, and technically should be a shining example to it’s neighbours in the region. Instead we have this world of hate that keeps the palestinian people down in the mud where they should have risen to new heights. Israel is not going to go away – period. The sooner the palestinians and the neighbouring states accept this, the sooner they can get on with their lives and the task of building up aq functioning country of their own. Since it is not generally in the interest of the neighbouring states to see a flourishing palestinian state, the palestinian people can’t count on anyone but themselves to start this process, and the only way to do this is to accept that Israel is there to stay, and that they should be focusing on gettting the best deal possible, ie. borders as per the 1947 Partition Plan. This is not happening, and general support (I’ll personally go so far as to call it well-meant but ill-informed) for their cause in the arab world and much of the western world as well is keeping the conflict going, with no peacefull solution in sight. This is the predicament we’re in at the present moment, and this, I would venture, is what Sam is lamenting in this post…

  163. Hehehehe, I go away for a year or so and what do I find?

    The same pointless arguments between antisemites and sane people.

    Anti-semites – yes, you’re right, Jews are evil and they control the world and very soon we’ll eat your hearts. In fact you’re surrounded by Zionist agents just waiting for the call from Elders.

    Sane people – why bother? You can’t convince a racist by words. You can only neutralize them, and it’s quite difficult to do over the web without the right tools.

  164. Roman Kalik says:

    #154 Lefty,

    Bravo Rightwing Kalik, you got Lynn another pacifist to sell out and join the zionist blind following.

    Since when is being a left-winger about supporting dialogue with racists, fanatics, and manipulators on the web? And is pacifism about suicide?

    Oh, wait. Pot. Kettle. Black.

    Could I borrow your blindfold for a moment, by the way? Lost mine.

    You deserve a medal or how about some (stolen) falafel or homos that has been around for centuries that Israel claims are israeli national l– olol — dishes.

    Oh, we didn’t *steal* it, good sir. You *gave* to is as a gift of good will. You know, when you expelled the vast majority of the Jews of the middle-east out of your countries. Most of them found their way here – and brought their food with them.

    Good food, by the way. Simply delicious. Much obliged.

    #168, Abu Sa’ar,

    Sane people – why bother?

    Because we otherwise leave such debate in the hands of madmen. That tends to end badly.

  165. oxford anti-semitary says:

    Jihad = Peace

  166. RK – I doubt the effectiveness of the venue. Those who are antisemitic out of ignorance can be enlightened. We’re talking hard-core enemies of humanity (and racconity) here, people who willingly choose evil.

    LTNS, BTW. When are you going to get the time to get your own blog? :)

  167. Roman Kalik says:

    We’re talking hard-core enemies of humanity (and racconity) here, people who willingly choose evil.

    I am not interested in saving people, merely in supplying an alternate opinion to that of madmen. Should they rule the public discourse, they will be listened to simply by default.

    When are you going to get the time to get your own blog? :)

    At my current rate of free time to work ratio, and other interests… not anytime soon.

  168. That’s my point about a blog. You’re engaging in public discourse in the comments sections of blogs; with all due respect to SM (and much respect it is), the comments are not exactly public discourse. More like a forum.

    A blog, on the other hand, could serve your purposes perfectly with the time saved from comments.

  169. Roman Kalik says:

    *shrug* I have the personal initiative of a limpet. I comment because I’m good at reacting rather than acting, which is why I flourish in a comments section or forum.

    Honestly, I think I’d fail miserably at blogging.

  170. I agree.
    We want a Roman blog.
    No joke.
    I like reading your blahblahblah ;)

  171. What the heck is this!!:
    “Your comment is awaiting moderation.”
    You suck, SM.
    I thought you were a libertarian.
    What happened?

  172. What the heck is this!!:
    “Your comment is awaiting moderation.”
    You suck, SM.
    I thought you were a libertarian.
    What happened?
    You SUCK

  173. What the heck is this!!:
    “Your comment is awaiting moderation.”
    You suck, SM.
    I thought you were a libertarian.
    What happened?
    You SUCK
    My Comment is not vulgar, crude, evil or whatever your problem is!!
    Print it NOW!

  174. What the heck is this!!:
    “Your comment is awaiting moderation.”
    You suck, SM.
    I thought you were a libertarian.
    What happened?
    You SUCK
    My Comment is not vulgar, crude, evil or whatever your problem is!!
    Print it NOW!
    Ruderuderuderuderude…HYPOCRITE!

  175. What the heck is this!!:
    “Your comment is awaiting moderation.”
    You suck, SM.
    I thought you were a libertarian.
    What happened?
    You SUCK
    My Comment is not vulgar, crude, evil or whatever your problem is!!
    Print it NOW!
    Ruderuderuderuderude…HYPOCRITE!
    I QUIT~!

  176. Yup RK is a natural born antagonist.,,you got that straight!

    We finally agree…

    Antagonist:
    1. One who opposes and contends against another; an adversary.
    2. The principal character in opposition to the protagonist or hero of a narrative or drama.
    3. Physiology A muscle that counteracts the action of another muscle, the agonist.
    4. Biochemistry A chemical substance that interferes with the physiological action of another, especially by combining with and blocking its nerve receptor.

    :c

  177. Becky,

    Relax, its a known glitch with unknown cause.
    You’ll get all your comments out the moment SM realizes you have a problem.

  178. Roman Kalik says:

    Yup RK is a natural born antagonist

    Whenever did I say that I was a muscle?

  179. why be an antagonist at all here, thats what surprises me. Its 95% Zionists here. Wanna be a hero, go to a nuetral website that supports balance equity and truth. You will get torn a new ass hole.

    Only reason we come here coz its amusing seeing a real live Benidict Arnold Egyptian sand traitor kiss and suck zionist Goldberg cock.

    even though now he is sticking up as a partiot. I always thought he is just faking it so one of his trips to Israel he unleashes IED hell on you. Then he would be really kool!

    Go Sandmonkey!

  180. Roman Kalik says:

    go to a nuetral website that supports balance equity and truth

    I’d ask you for advise on that… but unfortunately, I have long realized that our definitions of “neutrality”, “balance”, and particularly “truth” are not quite the same.

    So far, the only person going out deliberately heading out to start a conflict with people is yourself. In fact… you’ve crossed another milestone in proving mental projection. Psychologists worldwide are grateful, I’m sure.

  181. oxford anti-semitary says:

    Dude if I were to lose it on you I would say dear sir and faggott putz, you Semite piece of shit whom I never heard of, till you killed my ancestors in front of my own eyes while they were farming their land. You douche bag, sorry excuse for a welol educated apartheid thief.

    You have the gull to sit on your butty hole and say I am going out of my way to start conflict you murderous slueth vermin cancer subhuman garbage fungi specimen of spiritual biological warfare scum, trash motherfucker!

    Cos Omac that blleeds for some more king david the pedophile fucker cock!

    You poor victim of yourself, race and religion. You Hitlerire supremacist piece of Hezbollah meat!

  182. sick of the lopsided commentary on this blog and the pro pali ones are brute gorillas, here’s a cogent one for a change:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-why-bombing-ashkelon-is-the-most-tragic-irony-1216228.html

    yes fisk!

  183. @ 187 Oxford, don’t fall for it, they are trying to make you lose your marbles so they can call you a Khhhamas terrorist. That will get you killed dude, you are dealing with very well educated murderers, most hailing from Europe.

    It’s ironic that your comment number is 187 – which is the dispatch number for homicide. see, trust me, don’t lose it, it can get you killed.

  184. “they are trying to make you lose your marbles”

    Too late. Much too late…

  185. Oh now that’s supposed to comfort him lol?