My head hurts

First Hamas refuses to let Egypt receive the wounded through the Rafah crossing, saying that Egypt has to open the entire crossing for the million and a half Ghazan, or else they won't get to treat their wounded.. Think about this one for a minute. Let it simmer. When it makes sense to you, let me know.

Then Israeli pundits say that while the air strike is successful, they might need to do a ground incursion, thus proving that Israel is a nation suffering from an Alzheimer epidemic and doesn't remember anything about the last war with Lebanon.  

And then the Palestinians in Ghaza break through the Rafah crossing, and kill an egyptian officer in the process, and nobody minds, of course.. 

And then Nasrallah gets on TV, calls on the egyptian people to revolt by the millions and open up the  by-now-open Rafah crossing by force, and on the egyptian military to take a stand against the political leadership and  "join the resistance".

And finally, in Iraq, and I wish I was kidding, a suicide bomber blew himself up in the middle of a Pro-Palestinian demonstration.

You figure it out!

Comments

  1. Roman Kalik says:

    *reads*

    Business as usual around here, then?

  2. sm do you forget that iran was wiping nasrallah’s ass with there jerusalem brigades strewn across south lebanon. actually a ground incursion on the part of israel would end this once and for all!

  3. This is so depressing….

  4. The place needs a psychologist.

    “Israel is a nation suffering from an Alzheimer epidemic and doesn’t remember anything about the last war with Lebanon”. Actually, after the second Lebanon war (if I am not mistaken) some of the criticism from the Israeli side was that the army depended too much on the air force and should have started with the ground incursion sooner.. But there is a huge chance that I am mistaken.

  5. Marc Tretin says:

    I’m willing to bet that if Hamas would ever say they would stop shooting misslies into Israel and will stop any suicide bombing, Israel will relent. Isreal is going into Gaza because it has to secure its borders from attack. They wanted to voluntarily leave Gaza but that did not cause the Palestinians to reciprocate by dreducing violence. Sadly, once Netanyahu is elected the martyrdom crazy Hamas will figure a set of violent acts that will provoke Israel to Martyr the Palestinian people. Israel wants peace.

  6. No, Michal – you are right. One of the main problems with how Israel managed the war in 2006 was that the ground incursion was only an afterthought – here, however, it seems that real thought and planning has gone into the actions. Then again, it is still Olmert so who knows?

  7. Marc Tretin says:

    I’m willing to bet that if Hamas would ever say they would stop shooting misslies into Israel and will stop any suicide bombing, Israel will relent. Isreal is going into Gaza because it has to secure its borders from attack. They wanted to voluntarily leave Gaza but that did not cause the Palestinians to reciprocate by reducing violence. Sadly, once Netanyahu is elected. the martyrdom crazy Hamas will initiate a series of violent acts that will provoke Israel to Martyr the Palestinian people. Israel wants peace, but not at the cost of its survival.

    Hezbollah has mobile missiles that it can use to put half of Israel in danger. Isreal wants to strike now to avoid being destroyed latter. Israel is dead if it losses a war. Further, Egypt uses heavy machine gun fire against the Palestinians but Israel tries to avoid harm to Palestinian civilians.

  8. “Further, Egypt uses heavy machine gun fire against the Palestinians but Israel tries to avoid harm to Palestinian civilians.”

    Are you serious?

  9. It is still Olmert but it is Olmert who was beaten up. Worth two old Olmerts at least. Will it be enough? So far so good.

  10. e. weisbord says:

    After breaking up Israeli settlements in Gaza, turning the land to what should have been land space utilized for neighborhoods, commerce, etc. the ‘crazies’ decided it was better to destroy any existing buildings including a major greenhouse business and oh yeah…continue to fire rockets. If Hamas doesn’t keep up the war, they would actually have to be held accountable for not doing anything but make war.
    You’ve got your answer in Iraq…killing other Arabs while demonstrating against Israel. Now who really has the Alzheimers they all suffer from PAD (Politcal Alzheimers Disease).

    Let no good deed go unpunished.

  11. and then there’s Global worming and recession, Those damn muslims…..

  12. damn straight it’s all about ‘global Worming’

    here’s a couple of global Worms ahmad:

    khaled mashal
    ahmadinijad
    kim jung il
    al bashir
    al assad
    hassan nasrallah
    the castro bros.

    yup global worming thats what these guys do.

  13. The name's Sand_Ape says:

    Somebody get SM another drink. Cheers to..

    “Alzheimer’s” that was too precious.

    And BTW, Israel is not dead if it loses one war. They lost in the past but reinforcements were always sent in the end to make it seem that they have never lost a war. Especially yom Kippur. If they were to lose, the whole global military industry would be at risk and even Egypt has a stake in that and can’t let that happen.

  14. You figure it out!
    I give in. Cheers.

  15. Surprized that no one pointed out that this is just a prelude. Israel is negating Hamas before they attack Iran. Take over Gaza, clear it out so that no missles will be launched after Iran is bombed.

    That will leave retaliation to the Hez in Labanon. And if Hez attacks too strongly, Israel will attack them too. Hopefully, should a war with Lebanon break out, Israel will go straight to Damascuss and clean out that rat’s nest.

    There will not be peace in the ME until Syria and Iran have democratic governments.

  16. Correction, there will be no peace in the middle east til Israel takes responsibility for its actions or disappears by packing up and conceding like South Africa did. Or as i said before, unless Israel and the Arabs find a common enemy, meaning a common ground.

  17. The whole thing is depressing. Now it is out in the news that Israeil was planning this for 6 months so, weather Hamas fired rockets or not this was coming. Having said that Hamas is stupid to fire the rockets and give Israeil the usual “Im defending my ppl” call, which appeals to many fools out there.
    I am another Egyptian who doesnt understand what was Egypt suppossed to do exactly? While Mubarak probably was informed about wts going to happen, I seriously doubt Egypt has the power to order Israeil to refrain from its attacks, I whish we were that strong but we are not. Opening the Rafah crossing in the way Hamas wants will only serve one goal that is to have thousands of ppl move from Gaza to Sinai i.e. something that many in Israeil will be happy to see since the whole issue will be an Egyptian Palestinian matter. I feel for the Palestinians & was against earlier decisions nt to allow aid & supplies in but I’m sick w them blaming Egypt for their inability to have a unified front and y cant they see how Hamas & Fath are willing to sacrifice each and every Palestinian as long as that will give them one day @ power. As for Nasrallah & others well he can open a front w Israeil as well as Syria and where is Iran and its support and help? Why does it have to be us Egyptians who need to act, meddle, get cursed by all sides & then asked to bring them together for negotiations meant to give political gains to politicians on both sides & never bring peace to their citizens!!
    Seriously, Im sick of both sides the only solution is one country for all, a secular one w equal rights to all and the right of those who used to live in the land to go back, any other arrangements including the so called now dead 2 states solution will only lead to more blood.

  18. I’m sure the youth of Gaza seeing all those attacks and dead bodies everywhere will *not* grow up with the idea of revenge and if Israel manages to kill enough people, it might kill all the terrorists and they will not multiply and generate more terrorists…. yea that must be their idea of rooting out terrorism.

  19. Having seen Egyptian hospitals, I’d say Hamas is doing their wounded a big favour by not letting them cross into Egypt. Get treated in the El Arish or Rafah hospitals? HAH! Medieval torture was better…

  20. Dear Sandmonkey,

    Despite what some Israeli pundits may be saying, there is unlikely to be a ground operation right now, so I wouldn’t worry about that too much.

    Now about that second Lebanon war: there are similarities between the two situations, but the lessons may not be exactly what you think. As others have pointed out, in 2006 Israel was criticized for relying too much on air power. The ground invasion was belated and did not have the clear objective of wiping out Hezbo. At the same time, Israeli leaders made public statements which created the expectation that the final showdown had come. Thus, when Hezbo held its own, it was seen as victorious, thus catapulting its popularity in the Arab world. So for Israelis the main lesson was this: do not claim you are going to crush the enemy unless you are actually prepared to do so.

    While a ground operation was perhaps feasible in Lebanon, it seems less so in Gaza. If Hezbo were crushed, the Lebanese state could take over, at least in theory. If Hamas is crushed, there is no one who will take over. Israel doesn’t want to return to the occupation. Egypt obviously doesn’t want it. Fatah wants it but will be branded as traitors, at least in the short term. So Israel will stick with heavy air bombardments, with the goal of weakening–not crushing– Hamas.

    Anyway…as always, the blog is a pleasure and an inspiration.

  21. You ask me to figure it out, I’ve had it figured out for a very long time.

    Everybody with a semblance of a functioning brain knows the end game: At the end of the day, or the century, or whenever, there will be an Israeli state and a Palestinian state. There is no other scenario that can be believed by anyone other that a total moron. So the guilt for this carnage is squarely on the shoulders of those, on both sides, who tell their respective moron followers that any other scenario is possible. This perpetuation of stupidity is a result of 1) religious fanaticism and 2) those who capitalize on this religious fanaticism to gain and maintain political power.

    My head hurts too, but not nearly as much as my heart.

  22. 17. Egygirl:

    To start from the bottom, the idea of having a single secular state of both palestinian arabs and israeli jews has long since turned to wishful thinking… The idea died in 1949, and the animosity between the two groups of people that exists today excludes this solution for the next several generations.

    As for Egypt’s role in this conflict? You’re the only country with a border towards Gaza. Simple.

    Finally your opening statement… First off, let’s see a link to a credible source. Second, planning a specific attack and having a contingency plan drawn out beforehand are two different things. Israel would definately have ready-made strategies for use in cases such as this – nothing suspicious about that. Thirdly, has there ever been any doubt that Hamas are stupid? Or maybe psychotic is a better word?

    Still, I don’t get your “usual” refference… Are they NOT defending their people? Did Hamas NOT start the conflict by firing rockets across the border?

    18. ahmed:

    It sure beats just letting them kill you off one by one! Seriously, I doubt anything short of total destruction will keep Palestine from nurturing future terrorists/soldiers…

    The sad truth is that the only way to really win a war is to obliterate the enemy. Your advesary must be beaten so totally into submission that he is not able to get to his knees by himself afterward. WW2 showed a decisive victory precisely because Germany and Japan were pummeled completely to the ground, and given a helping hand afterwards. Western ideas and widespread media coverage doesn’t allow this kind of war today, however, and so no true looser is ever established, allowing conflicts to roll on endlessly. It might spare the civilian population at the moment, but the future generations will suffer for it…

  23. Egygirl -

    Operation Cast Lead started after 8 years of daily missile and mortar fire on Israeli cities. Not to mention monthly kinetic attacks (suicide bombings, shootings, stabbings, road-side bombs, etc) or the avoided daily kinetic attacks.

    So yes, Israel has been planning this operation for a long time. And all that time and much, much longer the rockets from Gaza kept on coming.

    Jacques – “from both sides”? What on Earth are you talking about? Did Israel express its fanatical religious desire to conquer the world by completely and unilaterally withdrawing from Gaza?

    BTW, the kind of ground incursion that would have worked in South Lebanon’s bush-covered mountains (rolling firewall) will not work in the densely populated battleground of Gaza. Not without producing unacceptable amounts of civilian casualties. Whole different ball game, Gaza. If anything, it’s closer to Operation Defensive Shield.

    The Egyptian dynamic here is the most interesting. With the arrogance and violence of Gazans towards Egypt on one hand and Nasrallah wailing about Arab honor on the other… is there any cognitive dissonance in your average Egyptian?

    What’s going on down there on street level?

    And about the seemingly illogical behavior of Hamas…

    Hamas cares nothing about human lives, including the lives of Gazans. That’s why they have been doing their best to prevent humanitarian aid to Gaza, attack the border crossings every time they open… and threaten to harm their own people if their demands are not met. They are an unbelievably vile bunch of barbarians, but hardly illogical. More suffering (or perception of suffering) in Gaza means more donations to Hamas in the world, more international pressure on Israel to let Hamas murder Jews, more interest in and honor to them in the Arab world. And they lose nothing, too.

    Adam – actually, Israel can readily afford a major conflict every decade of so. From these, we have comparatively few losses, gain valuable experience, test new weapon systems and tactics, invigorate the economy and keep our people unified. The experience, weapons and tactics are later sold. And with every operation, our containment abilities grow.

    This is, of course, merely the silver lining of that big black cloud of war. But we can’t have peace with the Palestinians until the Arab World will decide it is no longer profitable to use them as a whipping boy. And that doesn’t look set to happen anytime soon. Even should such a thing happen, the tremendous shift Palestinians will have to make – from being agents of genocide and perpetual victims to normal people – will take generations.

  24. To Adam B & Abu Sa’ar
    Levnis interview is online on Fox and elsewhere go check it for urself for credability. No having a plan for 6 months while refusing to even sit down w a democratically elected government means only one thing that Israeil wanted this result. I knw u will give me the Hamas is a terrorist blah blah. I dnt like them & I dnt like any religiously based likes including Jewish ones BUT we had to deal w Sharon who was elected although hes a war criminal by statements from members of his own army. Did u stop to think for a second that may be if Israeil accepted thier offer for negotiations whn they got in power may be this could have been avoided?
    Also, by putting Gaza under seige Israeil was nt acting according to the truce terms.
    As for u saying Hamas started w the missiles seriously this story doesnt go back to the past few days or months this dates all the way back to 1947. As for th thing about 2 states do u honestly imagine that a Jewish & Muslim-Christian state will live in peace? for how long?

    Finally, yes we have borders w Gaza ur remark has nothing to do w wt I was trying to say. If Nasr Allah & others calling for us to open borders and allow all aid including weapons to ease the pressure on Gaza then y cant we see action from his side and Syria on their borders w Israeil to ease the pressure.

  25. @SM

    On HAMAS and ambulances: HAMAS is driven by power-lust, hatred and revenge. Until HAMAS can have its way, entirely its way, these control freaks are going to continue to torture their own people. That is exactly how HAMAS has operated all along. The very thing that makes it impossible for Israel to make peace with HAMAS is the thing that has isolated HAMAS among Arab leaders. HAMAS is run by a pack of delusional rabid dogs.

    @5 Your comment reminds me that a few months ago, there was purportedly a power shift in the HAMAS shura council. Younger, more radical and more violent men gained power. These men have been convinced of HAMAS’s strength and have probably been big opponents of truces, negotiations with Fatah, etc. When we talk about HAMAS, we’re talking about these guys who believed their own sales pitch, who believed that they were becoming a new Hizballah and that they could embarrass the IDF.

    Israel needs to win this conflict very clearly and decisively, because that is the only result that will curb the influence of these men and give the people of Gaza and Sderot some kind of peace.

    @17 Egygirl
    I know that this whole mess is depressing, but I am glad that Israel felt confident enough about its relationship with Egypt to consult with your country beforehand. I think that Israel showed respect for Egypt in doing so.

    For months, Israel has been warning very publicly that a Gaza operation was coming. But the move would have been cancelled had HAMAS stopped the rocket fire.

    As for Egypt ordering Israel not to attack, it’s not a matter of strength. Your government is not behaving like a government that was forced to accept this. No, over the last few years, HAMAS has increasingly treating Egypt as though it were an enemy, and in doing so, it did not make Egypt behave like a friend. Even so, Egypt tried to throw Gaza lifeline after life-line. HAMAS rejected every one of these attempts. It should not expect any special protection from Egypt.

    On your comment that Israel would be “happy” to see Gazans pouring into Sinai: are you kidding? Even assuming that Egypt’s problems “make Israel happy,” which is not true, a flood of Gazans in Sinai would pose a huge security threat for Israel. Your border with Israel (unlike that of Gaza) is long and lonely and protected mostly by a few Egyptian policemen and a few Israeli patrols. There are places where there is not even a wire fence. Smugglers and illegal migrants cross into Israel all the time.

    On your comments about Egypt being blamed, power-hunger in Gaza and Lebanon, etc.: yeah. I hear you. All HAMAS ever had to do was not launch rockets into Israel. That’s not too difficult; Syria hasn’t fired a shot at Israel in decades, even though it is at war with Israel over the Golan.

    On “one country for all”: no. Consider how Palestinian society has been nurtured on genocidal hatred. There would be a civil war and a bloodbath unlike any you’ve ever seen. But if the Palestinians wanted to build a “tiger economy” in the middle east, there are still enough people, including Egyptians and even Israelis, who could agree to work toward a vision like that.

    Unfortunately, HAMAS has a very different vision for the future.

    @24 HAMAS’s purpose in the world is the genocidal slaughter of Jewish Israelis and the destruction of Israel. Israel is not obligated to sit down with an organization whose sole purpose is to destroy it. Israel is permitted to act in its own interest.

    You also fail to understand what democracy means. Democracy means that a government is elected by its people to represent them, but this does not obligate Israel to self-destructively negotiate with this explicitly genocidal organization. Finally, you have forgotten that whatever happened before, HAMAS took absolute power in Gaza by means of a bloody coup (in which 98 civilians were killed and 1000+ wounded – many more civilian casualties than in Cast Lead, whose casualties are nearly all uniformed HAMAS fighters thus far). In doing so, HAMAS lost any right to call itself democratic.

    On the siege: the siege is a direct consequence of HAMAS’ own actions. If HAMAS wanted to establish normal borders, it would be easy to achieve it on the Israeli side. But that would require giving up HAMAS’s delusional dreams of destroying Israel.

    @18 Ahmed
    You’re right. This is a very real concern, though not exacty for the reasons you cite.

    If Gazans are sending their kids out into the streets to watch a war rather than keeping them indoors and away from windows (and away from the risk of flying glass), then I worry more that these kids are living with parents who don’t care whether they live or die than I do about what they may or may not see outside.

    Of course, much of Gaza really ISN’T that dangerous right now. Away from HAMAS installations, and other than on TV, most kids AREN’T seeing lots of dead bodies. 300 HAMAS “soldiers” have been killed, and a MUCH smaller number of civilians, out of 1.5 million people living in Gaza. Except for right next to one of the target sites (which admittedly are located in civilian areas), almost nobody is getting bombed by the IAF, and unless the kids are running around watching people pull bodies out of bombed buildings (only insane parents would allow this, when unexploded “dud” bombs might be present in the rubble) the kids aren’t watching a parade of corpses.

    Of course if the parents are letting their kids watch TV, then G-d help us all, because the blood-pornography and distortions about Israel present on al Jazeera and other regional stations are enough to warp any kid’s mind, whether or not there is a war on. If it’s not Israel, it will be Iraq, or Yemen, or Nahr el-Bared, or Lebanon, or Palestinian coups, or… .

    I could say more, but I have run out of breath ;-)

    Thanks for an informative read.

  26. lol my hands hurt.

  27. 24 Egygirl:

    Yeah, I just saw it – basically, it all comes down to rockets being fired continuously from the Gaza strip during the last few months, and the israelis making plans for stopping said rocketfire. There is no “before Hamas even started firing their rockets”… They haven’t really stopped since they came to power (and before) – it seems it just reached a certain level a few days ago, prompting the israeli counterstrike.

    Only ones I’ve seen refusing peacetalks are the Hamas leaders. Unless you define peace talks as including demands for dismanteling of a state and the extermination of a population…?

    You are right about this story going back to the 1940′s – that’s when arabs attacked the newly formed state of Israel. I’m aware that there is more to it than that, but if you persist in clinging on to the conflict started back then, this conflict has no solution – Israel is there and it’s there to stay. How much land the palestinians have to call their own and how much conflict they have with their neighbour is entirely up to them.

    As for a two-state solution, that’s the ONLY solution I see as being realistic! What’s your proposal?! In any case, I’d call them jewish/christian and arab/christian, with the christians being the bullied underdog in both cases.

    My point with the border-comment was that no other country has the option of helping out the palestinians in Gaza, since they share a border only with Israel and Egypt, and Israel is obviously out of the question. The Syria/Israel border has nothing to do with this conflict, and I frankly can’t see why you even bring it up? The only thing Nasrallah could do would be to UP the preasure on Israels northern border, which would only further escalate the situation, and NOT to the palestinians advantage, I can assure you…

  28. it’s a sick cycle that none of you have seized on!!!!

    hamas et al take pleasure in every sortie and incursion into gaza and the west bank, it drums up donations and sympathy for their business/cause. the dead bodies are paraded in a tasteless fashion and showcased on al crapzeera in heavy rotation.

    and when an arab channel AL ARABIYA refuses to tow the line it is rebuked and dubbed a zionist sympathizer! in the same manner that the american right wing dubs CNN liberal.

    YES IT’S UGLY but israel needs to uproot HAMAS once and for all in order to reestablish balance and peace in the region. AND DON”T GIVE ME THIS HAMAS WAS DULY ELECTED CRAP.

    all we have here in the ME are secular dictatorships with fundamentalist democracies waiting in the wings. it’s time we grew up and refused both.

    PS Bernard Lewis is RIGHT!!!!

  29. i 4got

    someone has to be the ‘BAD GUY’ here be it israel, mubarak or even jordan. but it has to be done! life will be better after hamas and the muslim brotherhood in egypt and elsewhere will be broken once and for all!

  30. Egygirl -

    You’re unfortunately prejudiced (probably due to long years of indoctrination) and that shows in your pick-and-choose of fact and fable. Oh well.

    Nonetheless, perhaps you can see the Egyptian dilemma:

    The Egyptian government is dependent on a good relationship with the USA and being more-or-less civilized. And frankly, peace with Israel has been very profitable for Egypt. Not to mention that war is a messy business (especially when you lose) and tends to be bad for tourism and foreign investment. Mubarak’s best chance to remain in power and crown his son after him is in continuing to do what he’s doing now – laying low and riding out the youth boom while continuing to slowly reform the economy. Tricky business, but Mubarak has been pulling it off nicely.

    On the other side of the coin, the infamous Arab street is screaming for blood, seething, whining, etc about Egypt not helping to kill Jooz. Not helping to kill Jooz is bad for Egypt’s street rep, so to speak. The worst possible outcome of lack of street rep is an Islamist coup in Egypt. That is something Mubarak has to consider, even if the possibility of this actually happening is low.

    Ikhwan – and their Gazan branch, Hamas – need things to deteriorate in order to succeed. Your kind of thinking paired with discontented youth boomers and a resurgence of religiosity provide fertile grounds for . Guess what would happen were a bunch of bearded Hamas barbarians – with their hyper-violence, weapons and organization – to integrate back into Ikhwan. You’d have terror attacks inside Egypt in a matter of months. These guys are trouble, and they can galvanize their quieter Southern parent to some serious political violence.

    So Mubarak can’t really please the Arab street by helping Hamas, either, because that would risk his regime too much. So far he has acted with great wisdom – neutrality, diplomatic maneuvering and a relatively low profile will serve Egypt best in this case, I believe. Being involved in any way in the wasps’ nest known as Gaza is a unhealthy.

    Now, I am sure that these points are not lost on many Egyptians. Hamas are Bad News (capitalized) for Egypt; and yet Arab honor to which Nasrallah cries demands that Egypt helps them.

    That is the cognitive dissonance I speak of. 1) Hamas are fighting the Jooz and thus must be helped; 2) By helping Hamas we’re sawing the branch on which we sit.

    I am wondering how Egyptians are dealing with it.

  31. should be:

    “…provide fertile grounds for Islamist recruitment”.

  32. tx for that interesting analysis Abu Sand Monkey ;) it ties together most of the astute comments found above.

  33. GET OUT YOUR TIN FOIL HATS :D

    the egyptian blogosphere is rife with a sikes/picotesque conspiracy to cede sinai to the palestinians to the chagrin of egypt….lol they refute that the shoot to kill order given to the the egyptian border police as evidence………..rofl

  34. i luv egypt says:

    Man why dont jewish settlers just fucking find another place to settle. I mean obviously they are not welcomed by native people nor the arab region. I suggest Argentina, Jews would live happily ever after and can fabricate all the Holocaust Memoirs they wish. Jews, i know God promised you a land in the middle-east and gave it to you until God comanded you to give it to the Babylons. For some freaking reason, the prophet Jermaih was not taken seriously. Any ways jews both blond and black (clearly not semitic) i know the whole world exiled you even God. But lets stick to the world cuz we can control that. Live within other countries and you do not have to continue forming a jewish state in the middle of a fanatic extremist Arab desert hot region. Look for more chilled out places to settle and form a country such as ISraelor change the name if you want to. I was jewish of course like any other human being i would love a to have country of my own people and religion. But i would choose an easy going native people who do not mind invasion or changing their country’s flag into 2 strips of blue and a well positioned star of David. Why not be in europe guys? sound good ay??? THey like democracy, they treat women well, they are very similiar to all jews. Why not cyprus? buy that island from turks and greeks and then it will all be jewish and the turk-greeko tension will halt for ever. For fuck sake choose a better place to settle!!!

    Man this weed is good and i should be the president.

  35. i luv egypt,

    back again with that animated and amusing ignorance of yours….i luv it :D

    if you had bothered to open a book and read up on the tenets of being an observant jew, you wouldn’t be making such amusing statements.

    Israelis go out of their way to try to learn our culture religion and traditions and in 60 years they have made some in roads, evidenced by their numerous punditry fluent in arabic, but i can’t say the same for our side.

  36. Israel is the next South Africa, end of story. You can’t just march into a land and take it and when the inhabitants fight back and lose, you claim it was taken from them fair and square. The creation of Israel and denying other religions entry into Jerusalem is a major sin full of arrogance and ignorance.

    @ 35, you about summed it all up pretty well, but its obviously too late for that now. Let the Zionists make israel a highly developed paradise like the assholes in South Africa did before before they gave it back.

    Spend the time to watch a small part of this link, it shows Israeli soldiers ADMITTING that what the IDF is doing is SHEER EVIL. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37MFa7ZKQWo&feature=channel_page

    Psychology states that abandoned people end up abandoning people.
    Also that hurt people — Jews — end up hurting people.

  37. Sand Ape -

    “denying other religions entry into Jerusalem”

    I think you’re confusing Israel with Saudi Arabia and Jerusalem with Mecca.

    I have always wondered how much of such willful ignorance is due to propaganda and how much due to inability to admit that you’re wrong.

    It’s like “Our countrymen a generation ago were a bunch of barbarian idiots who tried to genocide the Jews and repeatedly failed, having had their asses handed to them in the process. If we pretend they actually won and pretend that the people we were trying to genocide were not actually people, we won’t have to face the shame. So… errr… Divine Victory! And Joooz are Evil(tm)!”

    Childish is the best way to put it, I think. Depraved would be the second-best choice.

  38. Roman Kalik says:

    #24 Egygirl,

    No having a plan for 6 months while refusing to even sit down w a democratically elected government means only one thing that Israeil wanted this result.

    What refusal? Hamas refused to recognize the existence of Israel. It reaffirmed its charter of utterly destroying Israel in the “great reclaiming of Islamic Palestinian Land” time and time again. Israel asked Hamas to recognize Israel and to not rescind past agreements signed with previous Palestinian governments.

    Hamas sulked, shouted, ranted, and then sent some people to kill more Israeli civilians. At which point, when the going got tough, the asked to talk about a truce.

    That’s it. That’s all Hamas ever wanted to talk about with Israel. An extended truce to rearm and resupply. And they broke even that one.

    Being elected is not enough to discuss international diplomatic matters. Being *willing to discuss them in the first place* is. Being elected gives a government a responsibility towards its electorates – Hamas failed on that count. Unlike what some hopeful political analysts said in rather desperate hope, Hamas did *not* become a more coherent and moderate organization when they gained power.

    BUT we had to deal w Sharon who was elected although hes a war criminal by statements from members of his own army.

    See above. Yasser Arafat was a criminal and mass-murderer, and we shook his hand and signed agreements with him. That’s because he at least *pretended* to want peace, and we were willing to take even that at the time.

    Hamas aren’t even doing that.

    Also, by putting Gaza under seige Israeil was nt acting according to the truce terms.

    Actually, you’re quite mistaken. The specific terms of the truce with Hamas were that the border passes would be open for goods and international aid *as long as armed Palestinian forces refrained from attacks*.

    They didn’t. They attacked the passes, idiots that they are. So the Israelis closed them. And opened them. And closed them. And opened them again. It was like a revolving door, really, with Hamas showing just how incapable it is of keeping its own forces under control. Attack, close, humanitarian gesture, attack, close, humanitarian gesture… time and time again.

    As for th thing about 2 states do u honestly imagine that a Jewish & Muslim-Christian state will live in peace?

    So can a Jewish-Muslim-Christian state live in peace with *itself*? Or will we turn into a bigger and bloodier Lebanon, ethnic cleansing and mass-slaughter and all?

    No thank you. We’ve already seen how that goes. We don’t want it. Dreams are very nice, but reality has a tendency of being brutal – and learning from past realities is preferable to Utopian experiments. More people reach the age of 25 that way.

  39. @ 38 Abu Sa’ar, the Zionist veiled with a fake Arab name..I just couldn’t let this one go. Mecca is for Muslims only. It has nothing to do with propaganda and all that cliche B.S. you are spewing. Jerusalem on the other hand encompasses all religions and it is evil to prevent a certain religion from entering. Save face and get with the other fake Arab Ahmed and roast some Hamas baby nuts!

  40. I only hope that Israel uses ground forces in Gaza. Nothing less than ground forces will truly wipe out the Hamas infrastructure.

    Of course, this is all a complete farce, as it is occurring while Israel is propping up the murderous/genocidal “Fatah” in the West Bank. But anyway, we’ll see what happens. The constant barrage of rockets against Israel must stop.

    As an aside, I am not surprised by the suicide bomber in Iraq. The Palestinians are hated, except when they can be used as propoganda fodder. I am sure the suicide bomber is now being blamed on Mossad.

    Pathetic, really.

  41. Jews would live happily ever after and can fabricate all the Holocaust Memoirs they wish.

    Calling the Holocaust a “fabrication”?
    Are you going to give me back my grandparents and aunts and uncles who I never met? Whose last record of existence is their boarding on a train to Auschwitz? What kind of monster are you?

  42. Roman Kalik says:

    Well, Sand Ape… considering the fact that Abu Sa’ar is quite openly Israeli, and recently began using this nickname due to the appearance of his baby son Sa’ar to the world…

    You do realize that Sa’ar is a Hebrew name, right?

    Oh wait… you probably don’t.

    Jerusalem on the other hand encompasses all religions and it is evil to prevent a certain religion from entering.

    Mm. So all those Christians and Muslims visiting Jerusalem must be a mirage. Zionist propaganda. Despicable lies of ZOG. All those churches and mosques and all that… they’re just cardboard. The Zionists tore down the original ones, surely!

  43. Any “Arab” who think Hamas is filthier than the shit under my shoe MUST be a zionist, right?!

    “Arab” inability to look outside of their own boxed views is the biggest problem in the ME.

    Hamas started this fight and hopefully Israel will crush them once and for all. What group of people in this world elects fanatic terrorists to run their country?? And you expect world sympathy when you elect these assholes??? And while Israel is at it they should squash the vile Ikhwan as well. Two terrorist birds with one rocket…wouldn’t that be great?!

    Thank God I’m not Arab.

  44. copts without boarders says:

    oh peter that last comment might open up a whole new can of worms hmmmm.

  45. Kalik you belong in ben Gurion University as head of ploitcal Zionist propoganda or the curator of a local holocaust museum lol.

  46. ‘“Arab” inability to look outside of their own boxed views is the biggest problem in the ME.’

    for someone who’s in a subjugated minority——–a tad dismissive and racist peter?

  47. dookie – why racist or dismissive?

    Most “Arabs”, not all of course, have one point of view and one point of view only. And sadly, it’s mostly NOT conciliatory.

    copts w/o borders – just food for thought :)

    Honestly, Hamas is evil. They do not desire peace with Israel only her total destruction. How will a two state solution EVER be accomplished with those goons-with-guns running the country?? It will never happen. And it was the Palestinians that freaking elected them…

  48. SM…

    A whole different subject…I am curious

    This is an article I just read:

    http://www.impre.com/laopinion/noticias/primera-pagina/2008/12/29/parienta-lejana-era-esclava-do-100682-1.html

    Yes…it is in Spanish…but you likely know somebody who could interpret it if you are curious…

    It is about an Egyptian girl who apparently was sold into servitude by her parents. I have heard of these things happening in various places in the world…but never out of Egypt…

    Is this an issue in those parts…or just a fluke case brought about by a bunch of mental cases?

  49. Ginan Rauf says:

    HMM – so the logic goes people who vote religious extremists deserve to have the shit bombed out of them……

    Does Mr. Egypeter grasp the implications of what he is saying

    Does he recognize that Christian Palestinians are suffering under occupation as well…

    Maybe he doesn’t care because they are A-Rabs and perhaps not real Christians…

    My sense is that he cannot get over a narrow identification with a national churce to recognize that Human rights are universal

    Nor does he seem to recognize that the great humanitarian Jesus Christ didn’t limit his message of love to non A-RABS

  50. Rauf -

    When an overwhelming majority (some 85% in Gaza, IIRC) votes for a party that is openly genocidal and indeed its chief selling point is “we kill more Jooz”…

    Well, I’d say that the people are a bunch of genocidal barbarians who need to be neutralized. Because when not neutralized, they tend to either blow up or attack neighboring countries with rockets and mortars.

    And as for the remaining Gaza Christians (the few not killed or driven away by Hamas, that is)… I will ignore the pro-genocide stance of their leaders since they’ll be tortured to death should they take any other stance… Well, they should have got out when they realized that 85% or so of their neighbors are genocidal barbarians. That’s what I would have done. Arabs or not Arabs, genocide is still the single worst crime.

    Which is also why we have to neutralize our murderous rabid cousins from Gaza by less than lethal means. Which is why Israel didn’t “bomb the shit” out of Gaza… but only out of Hamas. Bombing the shit out of something is Dresden, Hama or Nahr-el-Bared. This is a series of spectacular surgical strikes. Whomever heard of bombing in such a densely populated area and having around 5% collateral damage?

    Who is occupying Gaza, BTW? Other than Hamas and other such unsavory hordes? Is it the same people who are not allowed into Jerusalem because of their religion? :)

    Egypeter – try not to step in shit, man ;)

    Nothing wrong with being a Zionist, BTW – seems to me anyone disagreeing that Jews have a right to self-determination is the problematic party.

  51. Zvi (comment #25) excellent post! Abu Sa’ar, I agree—well-reasoned response.

  52. Oxford Anti-Semitary says:

    Definition of Jewish Self Determination:
    1.) We are superior to you because God really did say that we are superior to you, although we don’t like to flaunt it.
    2.) We will even go against God if he dare change his mind on us after making us superior.
    3.) Hence our trademark capitulation to our enemies and victims alike.
    4.) Being abandoned and chastised by God and the world time and time again has sprung us into dire desperation and the creation of the state of Israel in your grandma’s back yard so that we can fall on its geographical and theological roots to Judaism. And now genocidal roots!

  53. Oxford Anti-Semitary says:

    GOLDWIN SMITH, Professor of Modern History at Oxford, wrote in Nineteenth Century, October 1881
    “The Jew alone regard his race as superior to humanity, and looks forward not to its ultimate union with other races, but to its triumph over them all and to its final ascendancy under the leadership of a tribal Messiah.”

    “Hi guys, for those of you in the UK, dont forget 9pm tonight C4, documentary about Tom Hurndall, an ISM member who was brutally shot by the IDF whilst protecting Palestinian children from gunfire. Please watch if you can…”

  54. I have read some of the comments. I just want to say something to many of the arabs who have posted here. I am really impressed, and I give you respect for your critical thinking, differing views and opions, and healthy debate!

  55. I do have some questions for Sandmonkey:

    Obviously, you know that no matter what Hamas will not stop firing rockets. So, what is the solution? What should Israel do? If Israel gives more to Hamas and the Pals they will just demand more. If Israel attacks there will be civilian casualties. Should Israel just accept these rockets as a part of life? or is there an attack strategy that you think would be better?

  56. Oxford Anti-Semitary,

    I noticed you made identical posts on different threads.

    Are those your thoughts or are you just parroting somebody else?

    You do not expect us take you seriously, do you?

    PS. This post will be repeated elsewhere.

  57. How about a courtesy flush there ol leo

  58. Ginan Rauf says:

    Barbarians who need to be neutralized……….

    lovely………

    that says it alll…..

    With such a representation there are no civilians, no
    women, no children……. just targets……

    no international law, no Geneva conventions…..

    Do you believe in universal principles at all? as in the killing of innocent is
    immoral or not?

  59. Re; Justin # 56 Q: ” What should Israel do?” A: For start they should try hard personally and through superpowers claiming interest in peace in the ME to interrupt/cut flow of weapons to the area ,make it loudly known who violates this agreement ( Or that will embarass Israel friends making huge profits selling arms?) , then workout with all parties in the area through regular businesslike meetings to strengthen the positive and mitigating the negative in any working peace agreement . i.e. pro-act not react. ……just a conspiracy minded thought !

  60. Sand Ape @ 58,

    Didn’t you use this line before? Getting rusty?

  61. Ginan Rauf @ 59,

    When in Rome do what Romans do.

  62. ohio @ 60,

    Israel complained many times in the past regarding illegal smuggling of weapons by Hezbollah and by Hamas. When was the last time you protested to that if only via simple Internet post? Wait, let me guess… Yeah, I thought so.

  63. complaing in abstract terms about smuggling weapons by Hamas and Hizbollah is one thing acting and exposing the arms suppliers making profit is another. We are not in the coldwar time , those suppliers are known entities that can be exposed and politically, economically and diplomatically pressured to stop the flow . Starting with the G-8, UN , other friends,.. etc. When on the top of that Israel acts in a postive way with moderate brains in the area to fix weak barriers and strengthening the working ones to stop these chaotic exchanges that escalate to the present situation. My message for Palestinians and other countries involved in the conflict, follow the Japanese template. Japan achieved all and more of its objectives going through WWII without war. They use brain, heart and disciplines , now they stand as second economic power after the USA!!!

  64. 49. Ginan Rauf:

    “HMM – so the logic goes people who vote religious extremists deserve to have the shit bombed out of them……”

    Well, it worked in 1944…! But seriously, the palestinians (at least those in Gaza) voted for a party, whose sole purpose is to wipe out a neighbouring nation and kill it’s citizens – they’ve got to be ready to face the consequences of their stance.

    But I’ll give you this – the christian palestinians probably ARE suffering under the oppression… Hamas’ oppression!

    As for your comment in 59 – It’s pretty obvious from his post that Abu was reffering to Hamas, not the palestinian people as a whole, even though they are responsible for the Hamas government…

  65. Rauf – there’s this skill called “understanding written text”. Some people use it to infer meaning from sentences, paragraphs and even (!) longer written communiques.

    Using such a skill it would be nigh impossible for a sane person to reasonably infer the things you did from what I wrote. I must conclude that either your text comprehension skills, sanity or reasoning faculties were at the very least temporarily disabled.

    Nonetheless, I will answer your questions/statements – at least a couple of them are interesting in a different context and deserve some attention.

    1) “With such a representation there are no civilians, no
    women, no children……. just targets……”

    In a population with over 80% voting participation (and of them 85% voted for open and direct genocide and most of the rest voted for a less direct genocide), the vast majority of adults are clearly genocidal barbarians. The fact that they’re not wearing a uniform and/or are male/female/transgendered/adrogynous/genderless is highly irrelevant. They are adults, responsible for their actions.

    Which means that from a moral point of view they can and should be neutralized. They pay paxes that go to genocide attempts; they give moral support to would-be-genociders; they brainwash their children to be genocidal murderers. Each of these offenses is sufficient to override their natural inalienable rights (some of which are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness). Ergo, to stop them from attempting genocide, infringement upon these rights of Gazans is entirely justified.

    It is, of course, preferable to infringe as little as possible (and therefore the first right to be overridden is pursuit of happiness, second is freedom and third is life). But they must be held responsible for voting and supporting Hamas. They can be denied any and/or all of their rights for one simple reason – genocide is the single worst crime.

    The issue of collateral/hostages (juveniles, adults not responsible for their actions, the minority of people who are not genocidal barbarians) is trickier. Theoretically, the best way is to avoid any infringement of their rights. Practically, it’s impossible: Hamas uses civilian population as a shield on purpose, and genocidal barbarians are mixed with the non-genocidal minority.

    Here enters the complex calculation that seeks the lesser evil. Namely: how do we balance stopping the infringement on our rights (exemplified by incessant Hamas attacks) versus infringing on the rights of innocents in Gaza? Difficult, but hardly impossible. We must consider the potential denial of rights of innocents in general for each action/lack thereof. The balance is where the least rights of innocents are denied overall.

    Given the actual and potential infringement on the rights of innocents by Hamas (both by attacking Israel and by oppressing Gazans), I would say that we can accept significant collateral damage in Gaza in return for crushing Hamas and punishing the genocidal barbarians enough to make them less genocidal and to deter other genocidal barbarians. Unfortunate, but these choices were forced upon us. The kind of collateral damage we caused so far – between 15 and 50 depending on the (Gazan, of course) sources – is remarkably low.

    Next item is international law and Geneva conventions. I hold both in very, very low regard (even if I agree with much of both). Laws and conventions are frameworks for cooperation between parties. These laws must be enforced for them to be worthwhile; to be enforced, they must be accepted by all sides.

    No Arab state has accepted even the declaration of human rights. International law is a joke. Its would-be-guardians are its worst violators. The Geneva conventions were signed by most states but are in any way regarded only by the West. As such, I agree with these documents and agreements in spirit; their application to parties not bound by them, however, should not be automatic. Under no circumstances should we safeguard the rights of genocidal barbarians over the rights of our people. For when to safeguard their rights and when not, see first item.

  66. Next time I should charge for giving a lecture :)

  67. ohio @ 66,

    “complaing in abstract terms about smuggling weapons by Hamas and Hizbollah is one thing acting and exposing the arms suppliers making profit is another”

    Those abstracts are flying all over Israel today and are hurting Gazans much more than Israelis.

    Agree, it is not Cold war time. Cold war ended on four days ago. Could it be due to your inaction?
    And UN with its 22 Arab states and even greater number of Muslim states is so-o-o yesterday.
    Talking you say? Talking to whom?

    PS. Are you pulling our leg or are you inventing feel good stories so you could tell them to your grandchildren one day?

  68. ginan rauf says:

    Please spare us the lecture, I mean the ranting

    You might want to look at the number of children living in Gaza….

    Not that it would matter…..

    They are simply barbarian hordes who deserve to be wiped out

    Sounds pretty genocidal to me… the language. the more you speak the
    clearer it becomes

    And why am I not surprised at your utter contempt for the rule of law

    Because that is not barbaric but highly civilized

    ughh

  69. GR – I see your predicament: you ARE indeed handicapped. Inability to comprehend simple written messages, inferring the opposite from plain statements…

    Either some mental disability or a psychosis. I presume the latter. My condolences.

  70. Abu Sa’ar…

    Sounds more like autism to me. Autistic people can be quite smart, but they have an enormously difficult time to see anything except in the way they idiocynractically see it. And once locked into giving way of thinking…that’s just about it.

    Of course it is a spectrum disorder…this one appears to be a severe case.

  71. Abu S.

    Here is a brilliant statement from another post that kind of goes with what you note earlier:

    Lynne…

    Nobody is going to listen to that logic. I have tried before. If you look at previous posts, you will see the standard lines about; Israel has all the power, Israel has all the weapons, the air force…and there is certianly truth to that.

    So if we have ALL that overwhelming power…and ALL that bloodthristy hate (which I confessed to in a previous post), then how is it, that even by HAMAS’ own reports, we have only managed a massacre of about 280 combants (mostly who hide within civilian populations) and about 50 possible civilians. UN agrees with this count.

    Now, at least according to Twoshit, “Gaza is a concentration camp and the most crowded place on earth”….so

    For all the credit the Arabs give us, including our nukes, cluster bombs, bunker busters, and all sorts of other weapons…we are the most inept genocidal murders in the history of war.

    Meanwhile…with Israeli troops massed at the border….every rocket from Gaza continues to be aimed SOLEY at civilian populations with 100% casualities being civilians.

    But Lynne…you said rationale. I think even SM…who I deeply respect, kind of fell into the hyperbole about how rough Israel has been.

    We left Gaza…terror INCREASED and bombs never stopped. Israel is doing what needs to be done and are being pretty damn polite about it…

  72. Give it up people, quit trying to justify murder, mayhem, occupation by intellectualizing everything!

    I dare one son of a bitch to open up even one link that I left which shows in neutral light, the murderous plight of the morally depraved Zionists that kill in the name of lust, pride and greed!

    Israel gets a kill-for-free pass for the next 200 years for capitalizing on the holocaust.

    In modern opinion, Israel is the greatest injustice ever inflicted on an ethnicity by a religious minority since the inquisition.

    Israel is bad

    Israel is blind

    Israel is Ignorant

    Israel will perish because good always triumphs over evil in the end.

    Amen!

  73. I dont’ really care to debate these endless arguments because we all have our beliefs and they probably won’t change. It’s just tiring and it goes on and on, and besides posting here isn’t going to change reality.

    But I do thank sand ape for this:

    “I dare one son of a bitch to open up even one link that I left which shows in neutral light, the murderous plight of the morally depraved Zionists that kill in the name of lust, pride and greed!”

    I highlight the word neutral followed by “morally depraved Zionists that kill in the name of lust, pride and greed.”

    Oh yeah, that’s definately neutral language hahahahaha.

  74. Another contradiction by sand ape:

    “Israel gets a kill-for-free pass for the next 200 years for capitalizing on the holocaust.

    In modern opinion, Israel is the greatest injustice”

    If modern opinion is against Israel, then obviously there is no free pass! Hahahaha.

    In ur next post be sure to deny the holocaust, then praise it.

  75. Sand Ape @ 77,

    “In modern opinion, Israel is the greatest injustice ever inflicted on an ethnicity by a religious minority since the inquisition.”

    Are you kidding? Even pan-Arabists/pan-Islamists can no longer agree on that.

    “Israel will perish because good always triumphs over evil in the end.”

    Whose good?

  76. @80 leo
    The Anfal, in which 100,000 Kurds were simply murdered by the Sunni Arab minority regime in Iraq, stands as an obvious counterexample to Sand Ape’s claim.

    But hey, our friend “Sand Ape” is not one to let mere facts get in the way of an exciting-sounding hysterical lie.

  77. The only thing you said that was correct during your intellectualizing and denial of the pain Israel is causing is – “absolutely zilch” you have no case!

    Arabs and their leaders can’t and won’t do a single God dam thing about the injustice that is called Israel, simply because we can’t and it is not worth it.

    Ever heard of the concept of “central banking?”

    Who invented it?

    More importantly, who still controls this system which is a part of every economy?

    You guessed right – Congratulations to you guys lol.

    I know you are gonna pull out the dysfunctional Uzi’s and your anti Semite cards or say something like, umm whats your point, it is just a coincidence etc bla bla bla.

    Do you really think that Hillary Clinton, Obama, Oprah, Mubarak, King Abdullah or anyone who is standing by and doing nothing but condemning Israel really likes you or even sympathizes with Israel. We just don’t need the headache.

    Here we let gays marry coz we don’t need the headaches of being called oppressors.

    We let Israel have a field day with their surgical hits and mass collateral damage coz we don’t need the headaches.

    I know there are a few pacifists and good Israeli’s and we really don’t want to hurt them along with you guys when the time comes that God will allow the coming of the Messiah — which you guys don’t believe in, so don’t mock — and smitten world oppressors. But I guess now we really don’t care and will consider them collateral damage, just as the 10,000 you have killed and the 100,000 you have displaced.

  78. @82
    You know what, Sand Ape, your post has brought me around! I have been so stupid to try to live life in a normal way!

    No, I should take advantage of my heritage as an Evil Zionist Ruler Of The Entire World! I will go immediately to the local headquarters of the Super-Secret Evil World Juicy Conspiracy and to demand that they get my parking ticket cancelled, and that I be appointed Chief Financial Officer of the People’s Republic of China.

    After that, I will go and draw cartoons calling all Muslims terrorists and blaming them for the disaster that is the middle east, because it is SO worth my time to hate millions of people, most of whom just worry about living their own lives and getting their kids through school in one piece, unlike, of course, us evil Juice.

    Then I will go visit Saudi Arabia, where as a Juicy person, I am of course legally allowed and indeed encouraged to go, and borrow $100M from my good friend King Fahd, whose vast oil wealth is of course at my disposal because of my impeccable credentials as an Evil Zionist Ruler of the Entire World.

    Then I will use this money to establish a branch of the Super-Secret Evil World Juicy Conspiracy RIGHT NEXT DOOR TO YOUR HOUSE, because of course as an Evil Zionist conspirator, I have full access to the Super-Secret Evil World Juicy Conspiracy Database of Intellectually Honest and Not At All Hateful Anti-Semites, so I know that you live here in a one-bedroom cave with your pet penguin, “Hassan Nasrallah.”

    Thank you, thank you for teaching me the error of my ways! From now on I shall display my horns and tail proudly. I shall no more try to live a decent life. I shall no more try to be fair to the many Muslims who are victims of violence that they didn’t try to provoke. And I shall no more assume that when people with your world view describe the 300 combatants and the 50 or so [sarcasm off] deeply regretted [sarcasm on] civilians next door who have died in Gaza as “worse than the Holocaust” – in which 75% of my extended family, along with 6 million other Jews, were slaughtered in cold blood for the horrible crime of being born “subhuman” – they are simply ignorant (and possibly willing to discuss intelligently) rather than gleefully and congenitally retarded.

    Have a nice day.

  79. Zvi,

    I actually enjoy reading sand ape’s posts. It’s just ranting without any intelligence. I find it quite humorous.

  80. @84 Justin,
    LMAO

    Yes, I suppose I could just view her rants as being rather like this.

  81. Roman Kalik says:

    Ever heard of the concept of “central banking?”

    Who invented it?

    The Knights Templars in Europe, the Mongols in Asia. Although these two were rather simplistic and early forms, built on reputation and trust in the case of the former, and total military dominance of China in the case of the latter.

    Central banks as we know them were first introduced in England and Sweden.

    No Jews were involved in their creation.

    But oh, wait… you don’t actually base anything on *facts*, do you? Hatred is far more effective, isn’t it?

  82. @ Zvi – HA HAA ZVI SAID”Live life in a normal way” I guess since you were raised inthe gas chambers, killing Arabs is normal to you HA HAA
    Nice try though!

    @ RK yes your rooting corpse Goldamier said that when the Arabs love their children more than they hate Israel then there will be peace. Hate will only go away when you go away. Hate is tooo powerful. look what you guys are doing to arabs, thats out of hate for what happened to you in your past entire history. hence you feel the need to lie, fuck, suck, cheat, twist and kill in the frabtic panic of survival.

    Kooool!

  83. Roman Kalik says:

    Kooool!

    No, not cool. Definitely not cool. You’re… something, to be sure, but “cool” doesn’t quite fit the bill.

  84. @88 SandApe

    For someone who just cheered the shooting of two innocent civilians in Denmark, you are pretty sanctimonious.

    @89 Roman

    The word you are looking for is “deranged,” I think.

  85. oxford anti-semitary says:

    Raised in the GAS CHAMBERS like that plagiarizing fake holocaust love story angel at a fence. Give it up already

  86. Roman Kalik says:

    #90 Zvi,

    Quite possibly, Zvi, quite possibly.

  87. oxford anti-semitary says:

    Derranged is too be Israeli and abused beyond mental depravity and kill in the name of greed lust and squirming self determintaion. Got it !

  88. oxford and ape are melting down! Everyone knew it wouldn’t take long for them to whither!

    So predictable.

  89. Roman Kalik says:

    #94 Tedders,

    It’s the Circle of Life, Tedders.

  90. Holy fuckin weak come backs kids, dont think your even worth my heystrokes.

    I bet you guys are the type that say kkkkkhhamas in one sentence then say hello in the next, perfectly pronouncing the ‘h’ the second time around?

    :) :):):):)

    meooow

  91. Point one: The notion of a chosen people has nothing to do with racial superiority. It has to do with having a covenant with God. Many Christians and all Muslims believe that the covenant has been transferred to them. Saying that the “chosen people” concept, which few Jews take seriously, is based on race is rank nonsense, but handy for propaganda purposes.

    Point two: Regarding Alzheimers. During the war in Lebanon in 2006, the Israelis chose to go in with aircraft in order to limit civilian casualties and limit the extent of the war. It was later deemed a mistake, and the theory was that a ground war may have been more effective toward that end.

  92. covenant with God equals: Israel will go against you God, as we were the first people for you to forbid homosexuality. But we as jews will creat a Jewish homeland that openly supports gay relationships because or democratic power house the United States supports democracy.

    What covenant?

    Come again?

    Should i go on?

  93. The covenant has been transferred to them and lots of christians and Jews have converted accordingly. But due to Islam not being a glamorous religion, some have stayed behind.

    The same God that gave us Judaism, Christianity and Islam commands us all to get along.

    If you dont occupy land, just coz you humans felt the need to have it, then there would not be rocket attacks and war.

    don’t be against God.

  94. Sand Ape, Israel is not a religious theocracy, as you already know. If it were, you would have other complaints. It has a government that (sometimes badly) tries to balance secular and religious needs.

    G-d did not command Israel to let a bunch of terrorists blow up Israelis without defending itself against them.

    And who made you the final prophet, anyway?

  95. ???@And who made you the final prophet, anyway?

    RIDICULOUS…..what on earth are you talking about?

    If you are talking about the prophet Mohamed, GOD MADE HIM THE LAST PROPHET.

    Nicely said though about Israel badly trying to mix secular and religious needs. For starters Israel should make up its mind and decide to stop using the its ours cause God gave it to us card then!

    You hold God in such high reverence you cant even spell out G – O – D, out of respect for hima and fear of his wrath, so why not go the whole 9 yards. Or is it that you can spell it out in private between another Jew but not infront of an uncircumcised non Jew infidel like myself?

    Come on, exercise bend over backwards a little. Sadat did it, I mean REALLY DID IT!

  96. Yes, I’m aware that that’s supposed to be how Islam works, but now along comes a Sand Ape to tell us the will of G-d on earth.

    Such modesty.

    Regarding “it’s ours cause G-d said so”, you neatly ignore the actual history, which includes a legally founded state that was attacked, defended itself (which is legal) and has gained territory in its own defense (which is legal). The ones with the insane religious arguments (aside from settlers) are your golden boys.

    The truth is, Sand Ape, hatred of Jews as a people and as a religious group drips from many of your words. I endeavor to have a civilized discussion with you, but you prefer to ignore substantive discussion and attack my religion etc.

    As for bending over backward, I have a set of principles and I stick to them, regardless of whether I’m talking about Palestinians or Israelis. These principles lead me to accept that Palestinians do have some valid claims (as do Jewish refugees from the middle east), that the deaths of Arab civilians should be avoided where possible in warfare, that uniformed Palestinian attacks on uniformed armed forces are not terrorist acts but acts of warfare and that Israel should not allow settlements to expand. On the other hand, these same principles tell me that HAMAS rocket attacks must be halted, that Israel is permitted to defend its people, that if HAMAS uses child soldiers and human shields then it is directly responsible for the resulting deaths, that Israel has many valid claims, etc.

    You can’t say as much.

  97. PRECIOUS is your comment that Israel is a fully legal founded state that does not break any International laws.

    Then oftenly claiming Israel is only defending itself from the owners of the land it has confiscated from them. sighting war is war and it doesnt matter who started it.

    OMG LMAO …

    Legal under whose definition, by the UN which you claimed is a biased entity and whose resolutions arent fit to wipe your ass with? That’s why Israel has ignored about 60 condemnations by the UN in as many years as it has existed.

    If anything, I would say that Israel has the right to exist because it is already there and it is a gutsy state that can make significant contrinutions to the world and its neighbors if it just settles down and un settles out of the post 67 borders.

    How about this: I endeavor to have a civilized discussion with you, but you prefer to ignore substantive discussion and attack my religion etc. hatred of Jews as a people and as a religious group drips from many of your words. ….

    I believe you are talking about yourself and Islam Zvi. I know drasticness calls for drastic measures and all but calm down. I am not anyones enemy.

    I cherish all people of the book except for radical maniacs in each respective religion. I hold Jews in high esteem because I believe they are people of the book. Whether or not any people of the book have broken their covenant with God is not for me to say. All I know is that the Muslim religion says do not persecute any other people unless they chase you or other Muslims from your homes. If they cease, then you must cease as well and welcome them with open arms and make reconciliation easy for them.

    It is hard for me to believe that you feel the same about Christians and Muslims when you don’t even believe in their divinity.

    The double edge sword is that religious ethnicity’s stick together, this is especially abundantly true when it comes to Jews. So if you have a few whack job settler Jews, the rest of the Jewish world sends IDF to protect them and their illegal activity that jeapordizes peace. Israel only wants peace under is on terms. and their terms are pretty panic stricken coz they fear that people really do want to annihilate them for the simple mistaking of killing their children and occupying their land lol. SOUNDS LIKE PEACE UNDER ISRAELI TERMS. ONLY

    There is always a price for everything in this world. It’s called opportunity cost.

  98. Sand Ape, you keep on arguing – in this thread and another – that Israel somehow “stole” a country from someone… You do realize that prior to the forming of Israel, no state existed where today Israel and Palestine are located? Palestine as a name for the area was coined by the british as a name for the region they wer given mandate over following the defeat of the turks during WW1 and their expulsion from non-turkish land. The facts are that jews bought large tracts of land from arabs, fair and square; land that these same arabs later claimed was stolen from them when they saw how fertile they became under the care of the jews. After the war, land was nationalized as the owners had either fled the new state or was expelled for their part in the rebellion. Whether the jews handled everything civilized can be argued (by people better informed than me) but it remains that jews were as indeginous as arabs in the area, and were the first to proclaim a sovereign state. The arabs had the offer of their own state and refused because they could not stand to see the jews have ANY land – what we see now is the result. The arabs have not been cheated out of land; they just refused others the claim they themselves make. Your Syria/Iraq example have no semblance to this situation…

  99. Adam I believe your reply was intended for another thread because I find no semblance to the what you just said to this thread! I even tried the Ctrl+F feature and typed in Iraq and Syria separately and neither of those words had appeared under any comment that I had made prior to this one.

    Hey then again don’t take my word for it, this is the same situation when i am called simply mistaken and my mind is poisoned from watching years of anti Israeli propaganda and I am a victim of Arab hate and ignorance.

    That’s what it feels like every time i open my mouth anyways.

  100. @106 SA

    The legal foundation of Israel is just as solid as the legal foundation for any other state, despite your claims to the contrary. Ditto for Israel’s title to the land.

    You are misquoting me in an insulting manner regarding the UN and throwing in irrelevant claims.

    Re 67 borders, I have already said that when the Pals learn to live in peace, there will be a Pal state, probably with borders very similar to those of 67 (there is likely to be exchange of territory) and I will support that.

    Since you have been insulting at multiple points, your claim to trying to have a civilized discussion needs work. I have not insulted Islam; I have called you on your attempt to be the Mouth of G-d, but of course you choose to attack Judaism and Jews in response.

    I believe you are talking about yourself and Islam Zvi

    Then you don’t pay attention. Some commenters here undoubtedly remember that I have defended Muslims against attacks by fellow Jews and that I have never denigrated Islam, Christianity or any other religion. That’s your style, Sand Ape, not mine. As for calming down, I am quite calm ;-)

    I am not anyones enemy.

    I’d like to believe that, but many of your statements show a high degree of hatred, despite your occasional attempt to sound more decent than that.

    I cherish all people of the book except for radical maniacs in each respective religion.

    That’s great. One of the most positive things I have heard you say, in fact. Do HAMAS rocket crews, suicide bombers and their would-be-genocidal masters fall under the latter category?

    I hold Jews in high esteem because I believe they are people of the book. Whether or not any people of the book have broken their covenant with God is not for me to say.

    Nice. Implying that we have broken covenant with G-d (and in fact you said so more explicitly) but then backing off so as to seem innocent. Uh huh.

    If they cease, then you must cease as well and welcome them with open arms and make reconciliation easy for them.

    Sadly, your golden boys have a different interpretation, one that revolves around calls to “slaughter the Jews.”

    It is hard for me to believe that you feel the same about Christians and Muslims when you don’t even believe in their divinity.

    You continue to spout anti-Semitic drivel. Do you honestly have no clue how (a) incorrect and (b) insulting you are being?

    religious ethnicity’s stick together, this is especially abundantly true when it comes to Jews.

    It’s true of a lot of religions and ethnicities, including Arabs. Apparently. Except that sometimes you don’t. And sometimes neither do we.

    Israel only wants peace under is on terms. and their terms are pretty panic stricken coz they fear that people really do want to annihilate them for the simple mistaking of killing their children and occupying their land lol.

    No, Sand Ape, Israelis understand with PERFECT CLARITY that when Islamists and pan-Arabists say they will kill off the Jews, they mean it. If they win, they are not going to stop at the 1967 borders. They are not going to stop and exchange reparations. They are not going to stop until every last Jew in Israel is lying in the ditch.

    And this is not something that started in 1948, it is not something that only exists among Palestinians and it has nothing to do with the 1967 borders. Mobs rampaging through the Arab world have been chanting “kill the Jews” since well before there was a State of Israel for those Jews to flee to. A million Mizrachim fled from the Arab world and their descendants now live in Israel, and they know very well the “special handling” that Jews can expect if Israel is destroyed.

    Israelis know very well how to make peace, and Israelis in general are not stupid, Sand Ape. They have learned from bitter experience, and they can now see clearly the difference between Arab leaders who really do mean to live in peace and those who just wants to pretend long enough to gain strength – especially because the latter make no secret of their intentions at all.

    So I’m sorry. If you think that your crazed HAMAS leaders are actually just going to stop at the 67 borders, you’re dead wrong. I can believe it of Salaam Fayyad, whom I respect. I can believe it of Sari Nusseibeh. But HAMAS is led by genocidal psychopaths, and until you lock these kinds of bastards up, they will control your foreign/military policy, and with them, you will simply miss one opportunity after another.

  101. Prove your case:

    “It is hard for me to believe that you feel the same about Christians and Muslims when you don’t even believe in their divinity.

    You continue to spout anti-Semitic drivel. Do you honestly have no clue how (a) incorrect and (b) insulting you are being?”

    Prove your case!

    @ the false statement:

    “Israelis know very well how to make peace, and Israelis in general are not stupid, Sand Ape. They have learned from bitter experience.”

    So you agree that Israel will give back captured land that is not theres in the first place if there is some guarantee for peace. This is admission enough that Israel is at fault and is the new bully on the block!

    Hamas is not Hamas. There are no fixed targets, Hamas is an ideology amongst its people. They only service you can do for hamas is to attack it and attack it strong!

    Even SM who is pro Israeli to a degree, calls the Israel IDF dumb asses for their retarded tactics of retaliation which only strengthens the resolve of their enemy and gains them International world support!

    LMAO at Obama having retracted his statement that no other race has suffered as much as the Palestinian people, after coming under attack by the old and powerful pro Israel lobby!

  102. BTW the term antisemite was invented by the Israel lobby to confuse the general public.

    Secondly, I am against all radicals and the Israeli government is a right wing neo con Zionist radical government. So I guess it is fair to say that I am openly against the state of Israel until its good people get rid of the poor poor excuse for politicians that it currently has.

  103. Israel does NOT break any international law ???
    LOL

  104. YUP lol, but actually it is quite pathetic and hurtful!