Rockets fired on Israel from Southern Lebanon

Oh Boy..

A Katyusha barrage was fired Thursday at
the Nahariya area in the Western Galilee. Police reported that two
people were lightly wounded and evacuated to the local hospital.
Several residents were treated for shock.

Police sappers received reports of three rocket hits, one in town and two others in open fields nearby.

Update: So far we know it's not Hezbollah.

Update: Israel hits back

Now is the time to start praying that Hezbollah doesn't start "responding", or we really will be having a 2006 De Ja Vu! 

Comments

  1. Now is the time to start praying that Hezbollah doesn’t start “responding”, or we really will be having a 2006 De Ja Vu!

    Nope! UN peacekeepers and Lebanese Army is both in the area now. Whatever happens, it won’t be like 2006. Now we get to see if the UN peacekeepers do their jobs, you know… peacekeeping and stuff like that. Can we start a pool on that? My money is on them being asses and elbows northwards bound.

  2. PS-I think it was Hezbollah, or a HA proxy (proxy of a proxy? lol) for the simple reason that there was some consensus earlier today from everyone except Hamas (and who cares about them?) on a truce. The time was right for HA to make sure that doesn’t happen. I think the timing is bad for Gazans, though, because if the UN peacekeepers fail to do what they weer sent there to do in the first place, then the chances are very slim that any UN monitoring will be accepted in Gaza. And since that seems to be something Hamas wants (why, I wonder?) then it’s going to screw things up pretty badly.

  3. CarpetCaptain says:

    It was definitely HA. Theres no way in hell that their masters in Tehran were going to allow any sort of temporary peace agreements or ceasefire. Afterall this has been their objective and the foolish arab street is eating it like candy. What better distraction is there for the world while Iran builds a couple of nukes than the pictures of dead babies on every Arab paper.

  4. Hopefully Israel will keep it’s cool, and give Lebanon/the UN a chance to sort things out before they retaliate further…

  5. havent the jews suffered enough, is history repeating itself, sound familiar,is hitler back from the dead. hitler also wanted to anialate jewsl. it is also a shame for the inocent people in gaza to be stuck in the middle. as the saying cant we all just get along. kind of funny when 911 happened all people in the u.s. of different colors,creeds,ethniticites came together and felt the loss.what do we need,aliens to attack the world for anilation so we can all come together for one common good, survival.

  6. jack, we’d be right back at each other’s throats as soon as those pesky aliens were dealt with…! :D

  7. Jack, if the aliens attack I’m sure there’ll be some nations that would take the aliens’ side against the current superpowers. Whenever you have an external invasion (like the spanish in south america, for example) you’ll always find someone who’s unhappy with the current situation and is more than willing to help the outsiders replace the powers at be.

    As for Hizballa, I’m not so sure he’s the one behind the attacks today. He may have assisted indirectly (by turning a blind eye) but there is no shortage of armed militias in south Lebanon. The question is, whether more missiles will follow. Doesn’t look like it, for now. It’s in everyone’s best intrest not to start a 3rd Labanonese war (everyone but Hamas, that is, but no one asks them)

  8. Dr. Guy Bechor, the only Israeli ‘expert’ to the middle meast which I do not consider a complete idiot, says that most likely the rockets were fired by suni militias that are connected to al-quaida.
    al-quaida, btw, has issued a fatwa a while back that says that Hassan Nasrala should be killed, because he prevents ‘true’ resistance against Israel. Since Nasralla has the most the lose from opening a second front against israel, he is in fact the one doing the most to keep other militias from firing missiles.

  9. Carpet Captain: “What better distraction is there for the world while Iran builds a couple of nukes than the pictures of dead babies on every Arab paper” . And that response is supposed to please the Arab countries in the area !!??. Since for sure any hypothetical use of these nukes would kill more palestinians, Jordanians, Syrians than Israel ever succceded doing . Do you think those arab entities suppose to watch and see or rather help Israel/US to remove Iran from the map before they succed in this evil adventure (in the name of scaring Israel” ?. How stupid can people in the ME be since we haven’t seen anyone discuss this in the media . Or maybe nuclear science now succeded in developing bombs that distinguish jews from palestinians!!??

  10. The rockets, would bet anything…were either Palestinian or al-Qaida wannabees. Nashrallah runs his mouth, but I can’t see what he would have to gain by having s. Lebanon turned into powder…but then again…he stays in a bunker so who knows…

    But I think a marginal Palestinian group showing “unity” and maybe maybe folks trying to start a second front…which given the mood in Israel, could lead to some very very sad results.

    Who knows? But not a good thing.

  11. IF it’s true that iran substantially controls ham and hez, then it makes sense for iran to bring both into play at this time. Assuming, of course, that israel is going to fail this time just as it did in 2006. Which seems, sadly, pretty certain.

    With arab countries silent on the ham-israel conflict, iran has the opportunity to solidify its influence in lebanon and gaza, rebuild its influence in syria, and perhaps establish some alliance with the mb – all in one move.

    Clever people, these persians.

  12. Why is it that everyone insists Israel failed in 2006?? How many rockets have Hizbollah fired into Israel since that war?

  13. idf clumsy as hell!!! says:

    ok one can deal with them using a heat seeking missile to go duck hunting for hamasholes for a couple of days…but now that UN staff are getting killed, it’s absurd———no they are not cold blooded or evil, just plain clumsy GET IT OVER WITH AND FINISH THE DAMN JOBBBBBBBBBB!!!!!

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7818577.stm

  14. Adam B has a point.

    i say Hezbollah lost a lot of political capital in Lebanon after its last escapade.

  15. 12: Yeah, I have to agree with you… It’s really hard to keep spirits up regarding this war, when all you hear is that IDF blew up a UN-run school, IDF trashed 3 mobile hospitals (danish ones at that – grrr!), IDF shooting UN-truck frivers, etc. etc.

    Is it too much to ask that this war be executed with utmost care to avoid incidents like those we see daily?!? Pleeeeease!!!

  16. and watch arab media interview UN staff ad nauseam, describing the ‘indiscriminant heartless shelling’ mean while hamas operating with without impunity harassing people for a cut of the aid coming in.

  17. Ahmed…

    Don’t forget that Hamas is also responsible for about 5% of the Palestinian casualities with murdering Fatah guys and knee-capping, apparently 75 people…

    And I have still not heard the world or UN cry out against “indiscriminate (albeit purposeful) shelling of non-combatant, civilian populations in Southern Israel.

  18. Machal is responsible for every civilian death on the ground. what kill’s me is the fact that the botched lebanon war is seen as a victory by the fat man in the black turban. and now he is using it as some sort of arab mandate/collateral….

  19. SM

    Cut this out of an op-ed. Just put it in to piss you off a bit:

    “Any long-term solution for Gaza lies in solving the refugee problem. The solution should be based on the principle that Israel is not responsible for them. Rehabilitating the refugees in the Gaza Strip is not a viable solution. The responsibility should fall on Egypt and in the Sinai Peninsula. Israel must act so that Egypt starts taking responsibility for the Gaza Strip”

    Ah…did you right that op-ed by any chance?

    :)

  20. Nasralla can claim victory all he wants, but everyone knows he lost the 2006 war.

    I mean, everyone but Israel. We think we lost, because anything less than six-days-war-victory scale is considered losing by us. We are not a very bright nation. Thank god being bright has nothing to do with being successful, just look at the US.

  21. that op-ed is not a big surprise john bolton and a few think tanks have been floating that idea for a while now. a very old yet novel idea to return gaza to egypt and the wb to jordan. and have them under the control of 2 viable governments.

    Mubarak, boy king and Abbas have been ferociously attacking it for about 9 months now.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/04/AR2009010401434.html

  22. Abu Sa'ar says:

    Adam and 12 – frankly, IDF has been anything but clumsy. This whole operation is executed with incredible precision. The amounts of civilian casualties are still very low. The amounts of terrorist casualties, however, are high.

    The UNRWA school was boobytrapped and mortars were fired from it at IDF troops. This isn’t the first time, either. When IDF returned fire, the boobytraps exploded, killing some 30+ people. I wonder what sort of people are in a building that is covered with IEDs, has Hamas terrorists firing from it and has been used as a Hamas firing base in the past? EOZ has the links.

    The UN truck driver was killed (and two additional Palestinians wounded) by a Hamas attack at the border crossing. The two wounded Palestinians are now being treated in Israel for gunshot wounds to the chest.

    All of the news from Gaza not supplied by IDF is basically supplied by Hamas. The various news media happily lap it up because it’s dramatic.

    The interest of Hamas is to maximize civilian casualties – or rather, to make it seem like there are many civilian casualties. This is their only way to prevent Israel from finishing them off. And Hamas proved long ago and beyond any doubt that morals is not something it has. And it is has a long history of fabricating sob stories, atrocities and corpses.

    The interest of IDF is to minimize civilian casualties. Not to pretend like there are few civilian casualties, but to actually make sure there are few: IDF’s every move is under very close scrutiny, post-op analysis will be public and civilian casualties increase international pressure for IDF to stop. Of course, it is also in the interest of IDF to make it seem like there are as few civilian casualties as possible; but the aforementioned close scrutiny and post-op analysis (in addition to Israel being too small and sentimental to keep dead civilians a secret from itself) prevent IDF from lying about bodycounts.
    IDF is also slow to release information (usually late by a few hours at least), making Hamas-manufactured stories more visible.

    And as for returning Gaza to Egypt… there is nothing anyone is willing to offer Mubarak that could be worth it. Hamas are about the only thing that can bring ol’ Hosni down. It’s just too much of a risk – and Gaza is too much of a liability.

  23. wtf is rashid khalidi’s point in his op-ed yesterday?!?!? if he is a bellwether then we shouldn’t expect much from his ole buddy. yes he threw him under the bus, but birds of a feather flock together!!!

    is that all it takes to teach at colombia, is stating the obvious and whining in an op-ed piece that provides nothing with for a structured solution whatsoever!!!

  24. 21. Abu: I beg to differ…

    Shooting at a clearly marked UN aid truck which has been advertized in advance is not “incredible precision”.

    Bombing three clearly marked Red Cross mobile hospitals (with no casualties) is not “incredible precision”.

    Bombing an advertized UN school, even if Hamas HAS been shooting rockets from it’s vicinity, is stupid to say the least, and not “incredible precision”.

  25. I believe it was HA.

    Reason: they need to have bragging rights, they were the only brothers helping Hamas to achieve victory.

    They had their say, there will be no more rockets.

  26. Adam B @ 24,

    It requires investigation before passing judgment one way or the other. Civilian objects become legitimate military targets under certain conditions. That is why you see Israelis claiming there were fired upon and were forced to return fire.

    I expect each side to lie, it is a war. But based on past patterns of behavior my money is on Israel (in absence of investigation, that is).

    PS. It is funny to see UN get out of Dodge after one measly casualty. Yet, entire world expects Israel to have thousands of rackets causing death and destruction go unanswered.

  27. Adam B @ 24,

    It requires investigation before passing judgment one way or the other. Civilian objects become legitimate military targets under certain conditions. That is why you see Israelis claiming they were fired upon and were forced to return fire.

    I expect each side to lie, it is a war. But based on past patterns of behavior my money is on Israel (in absence of investigation, that is).

    PS. It is funny to see UN get out of Dodge after one measly casualty. Yet, entire world expects Israel to have thousands of rackets causing death and destruction go unanswered.

  28. Oops, double post.

  29. leo, there really is no doubt who fired in all three cases, so investigation can only try to explain why there was given fire. In none of the cases should fire have been given at any rate, at least not without due warning to the innocent bystanders…

    I agree though; it’s funny (and sad) to see the UN turn tail and run (not just in this conflict, but any) as soon as things get just a little hot. How the hell do they expect to function as a peace-keeping force then…?!?

  30. Joel Rosenberg says:

    Well, the Dahiyeh Doctrine is going to have to be demonstrated at some point. I guess the real question is whether the Gazans or the Lebanese are going to be volunteered to be the object lesson.

  31. What is ‘Dahiyeh Doctrine’?

  32. It looks like Israel is winning, that the Arab street finally realizes Israel has been pushed too far:

    http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2009/01/022505.php

    The report notes that Hezbollah denies making the rocket attacks, lest the Israelis unleash a can of whoopass on them, too. Al Jazeera is limiting its interviews with Gazans because they are not following the pro-Hamas script.

    Keep the pressure on. Don’t let up. Keep hitting Hamas until they crack and then hit them again.

  33. joel as in sacrifice? never heard of it, but assuming it has to to with machal sacrificing ‘gaza’ for the ‘ultimate struggle’ whatever that means you can’t really get inside a maniac’s head…

  34. Ann, this quote from your link…

    “The source, however, ruled out a new war on Lebanon, “particularly since the wounds of the previous war have not yet healed.”

    …shows pretty clearly that there is no reason whatsoever to call Hizbollah the victor of the 2006 war!

  35. A small search of “Dahiyeh Doctrine” gives the definition as total destruction of an entire area, undertaken, not after days of attacks, but immediately after the first sign of aggression – named after a south-lebanese suburb.

    I doubt that Israel wouls actually go ahead with such a plan, even though it might seem like the solution to this gordian knot that is fighting guerillas in urban and suburban areas… The reaction from the international community to such an indiscriminate tactic would be too damaging.

  36. Joel Rosenberg says:

    See below.

    I don’t think the question really is whether or not it’ll be implemented, just when and where. Not because it’ll be Israel’s preference — as they’ve demonstrated, over and over — but because it’ll be necessary.

    _________________________

    See http://www.metimes.com/International/2008/10/07/israel_threatens_to_decimate_lebanon/5531/

    In an interview Friday with the Israeli daily Yediot Ahronot, GOC Northern Command Gadi Eisenkot presented his “Dahiyeh Doctrine.” This doctrine would allow the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) to expand its destructive power beyond what it demonstrated two years ago against the Beirut suburb or, dahiyeh in Arabic, a Hezbollah stronghold, during the Second Lebanon War.

    “We will wield disproportionate power against every village from which shots are fired on Israel, and cause immense damage and destruction. From our perspective, these are military bases,” he said. “This isn’t a suggestion. This is a plan that has already been authorized,” he added.

  37. It’s not that clear to me what the “Dahiye Doctrine” is, after doing a google search. Most the hits I got were for Arab media reports, and I don’t really trust their interpretations, myself. Even going by those reports, though, it sounds like using overwhelming force, rather than the minimum amount of force necessary. If so, there is no difference between that, and standard US military doctrine. And I guarantee that if it had been the US invading Lebanon in 2006, there would have been several “Fallujas”. I always wondered why the Israelis were playing patty-cake with Hezbollah instead of making a serious effort to take them out.

    Adam, how much more damaging could world opinion be? That’s the problem when you throw the biggest possible tantrum at the smallest possible provocation… there’s no way to escalate. Unless you think the EU is going to declare war on Israel? Nobody but the Europeans really care, as they all know their reaction would be far more brutal than Israel’s has been. Russia for instance? You think Russia believes the Israelis are being too hard on Palestinians? lol.

  38. Craig, as it is, the western reaction to Israel is a call for cease-fire… No western country has sp far “condemned” the israeli attacks, and even though it might just sound like words of no real consequence, the repurcusions could be trade embargos, preasure on the US to cut funding, increased monetary support to Israels neighbouring countries, etc.

    In any case, I just don’t think an israeli government can survive making Israel into a veritable social pariah in the western sphere. It’s not that I totally condemn the method; after all, it’s similar to the tactic we ourselves utilized against the germans and japanese during WW2, with great succes. I just idon’t think the world is ready for that level of retaliation from Israels side, and I’m not sure the israeli population is either…

  39. the repurcusions could be trade embargos, preasure on the US to cut funding, increased monetary support to Israels neighbouring countries, etc.

    That’s really worked on Iran! So what do Europeans have that the Israelis need, that they can’t get from the US, China or Russia? Things could get pretty ugly for Europe, once that can of worms gets opened. Israel’s entire population is equivalent to a medium sized US city. Their needs are easily met. Same can’t be said for the EU.

  40. Yeah well, Iran ain’t Israel, is it…? I’m pretty sure most israelis would take offence at being compared to Iran, and likewise I’m confident that Israel considers itself a civillized member of the western world, and will therefore strive to live up to that position. Sure, any state can be as vicious as it wants to and still survive, but is the population interested in this? Unlikely…

  41. Yeah well, Iran ain’t Israel, is it…?

    You tell me! You’re the one suggesting the EU might start treating Israel the same way lol.

    Sure, any state can be as vicious as it wants to and still survive, but is the population interested in this? Unlikely…

    Adam, that’s not what using “overwhelming force” is all about. I’ll try to give an example that even European pacifists can understand (not talking about you, personally, here :) )

    If a wanted and armed criminal was barricaded in his home, and refused to surrender, would you advocate that the police should send one armed cop in to arrest him? In the name of proportionality? Or would you advocate that the police should surround the building, use tear gas/stun grenades/etc, and simultaneously launch an assault through the back door, front door, and first floor windows? Even though that’s not “fair”?

    I can’t think of a more simple way to describe the concept.

  42. I’m confident that Israel considers itself a civillized member of the western world, and will therefore strive to live up to that position.

    The US considers itself to be a civilized member of the Western World, and makes no such efforts to live up to European expectations. Are you going to put sanctions on the US, as well? Or kick us out of the “civilized” club? Well, I guess you already did kick us out of the “civilized” club, come to think of it. I guess its time for us to go rogue, like all the other major world powers have always done :o

  43. “You tell me! You’re the one suggesting the EU might start treating Israel the same way lol.”

    What? Where…?!?

    “I can’t think of a more simple way to describe the concept”

    That’s not the concept at all…! Here’s another take: An armed murderer is hiding in his home along with his entire family. Are you gonna blow up the whole house and all it’s inhabitants just to make sure you take out the killer? Even if some of the family memebrs have spoken out publicly against the criminal?

    “The US considers itself to be a civilized member of the Western World, and makes no such efforts to live up to European expectations”

    Those aren’t european standards, man… “Even” the US don’t practice a scorched earth policy like that, and I’d wager you’d see plenty of outrage in the states as well if Israel decided to level an entire suburb to take out a 5 man rocket crew… At least I hope so!

  44. Adam, I was talking about the concept of “overwhelming force” as opposed to “proportional force” or the minimum amount of force necessary. I deliberately didn’t bring “terrorism” into the equation, because there is no way to effectively use either proportional force or overwhelming force against terrorists. There simply isn’t a good way to deal with terrorism, other than trying to shut down their support systems.

    An armed murderer is hiding in his home along with his entire family. Are you gonna blow up the whole house and all it’s inhabitants just to make sure you take out the killer? Even if some of the family memebrs have spoken out publicly against the criminal?

    I might at that. I certainly wouldn’t hesitate to assault the home, and let him decide whether he wants to put his family in harm’s way or not. If he’s taken innocent hostages, the situation changes. But unless he forced his family to live in the same house with him, they are not completely innocent, and can’t be considered innocent hostages. What would you suggest, in this scenario? Negotiations? I already stipulated that he was refusing to surrender.

    Those aren’t european standards, man… “Even” the US don’t practice a scorched earth policy like that

    We don’t? We did exactly what the Israelis are talking about doing (which is not “scorched earth”) at Falluja.

    and I’d wager you’d see plenty of outrage in the states as well if Israel…

    I doubt it. Americans fully supported the attack on Falluja. In fact, most Americans were outraged that the US military allowed terrorists to take over that city and hold it for almost a year, without doing anything about it.

    The Europeans sure raised a fuss about it, though. But in the US? Nope. Even to this day you won’t find many Americans who say assaulting Falluja the way we did was the wrong thing to do. Not amongst the ordinary citizenry, anyway.

    decided to level an entire suburb to take out a 5 man rocket crew… At least I hope so!

    Where do you get this 5 man rocket crew from? Israel is going after an entire terrorist group, that has tens of thousands of members and many more than that of active supporters. You can’t reduce an organization to it’s individual membership, and expect Israel to engage each and every member of Hamas as an individual criminal. Hamas doesn’t exist in a vacuum, and it’s members do not act alone. To think of it this way, is to reward Hamas for its human shield tactics. Is that REALLY a precedent you want to set? Wait until terrorism takes hold in Europe and see if you still want to play that game!

  45. Adam B @ 35,

    Thank you

  46. # Adam B. Says:
    January 9th, 2009 at 7:23 pm

    ” It’s not that I totally condemn the method; after all, it’s similar to the tactic we ourselves utilized against the germans and japanese during WW2, with great succes. I just idon’t think the world is ready for that level of retaliation from Israels side, and I’m not sure the israeli population is either”

    Why is it that world is not ready for that level of retaliation when it’s the Israelis who are doing the retaliation? When Europe safety was threatened, an “unproportional” response was justified, but Israel has no such privilege. Israel’s response is as moderate as NATO’s to 9/11. Let’s face it. With some enemies, there is no other option other than using overwhelming force. In fact, I cannot think of any examples in which an organization/nation as extreme as the Hamas was beaten by anything less. I also cannot think of any other country that was ever held to such high “moral” standards in similar circumstances. If it had to live by these standards, it would have been obliterated a long time ago.

    As far as for the Israeli people living close to Gaza, I think most of them are willing to suffer much more Palestinian casualties if that what it takes to ensure their safety. What they’re more sensitive to is casualties on their side (this cannot be said about Israeli peace activists who seek global justice. conveniently enough, the rockets don’t reach them). Just like any other sane nation. Look how many Iraqis have died since the Americans overthrew Saddam. Are they the main reason most Americans have gone weary with it, or is it the American lives and resources lost there.

  47. “Are they the main reason most Americans have gone weary with it, or is it the American lives and resources lost there.”

    I don’t think it’s either. It’s a media that wails and moans about Bush and “his” war while never mentioning that the Chicago and Detroit murder rate takes more lives than the latest year in Iraq. It’s safer in Iraq than it is in Detroit or the messiah’s Chicago. You’ll never hear that on the MSM until the medias love affair with Obama is over.

  48. “Are they the main reason most Americans have gone weary with it, or is it the American lives and resources lost there.”

    I’m with Tedders, kinda. What did it for me was reading Iraqi blogs, combined with the daily drumbeat of terrorist attacks on Iraqis. When Steven Vincent was murdered by Policemen who were obviously on the payroll of one of the main Shiite factions, that was it. I decided Iraq was a lost cause, and that the US should just abandon it then. I’m kind of embarrassed to admit that was in 2005. I hate to think what Iraq would be like right now, if I’d had my way.

  49. LMAO at other Israeli residents were treated for (Mwhahaha) SHOCK (Mwhaha)!

    And Israel started just like hezbollah and hamas, as a resistance force. Wasnt Hezbollah created as a deterant after the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon? Giving the Shia Iran free reign in the Arab world? Israel sure doesnt seem to learn from its mistakes. It’s as if it digs itself deeper and deeper into debt.

    you guys pat yourselves on the back, this is one of the only 15 remaining pro Israeli crowd websites left in the world! As 4/5 of world sympathy is now with Gaza and not Hamas. Even 1/5 of Israels population, half of the being Zionist Jews, marched against the the latest IDF offensive on behalf of the elections next month!

    See if anyone can say something intelligent instead of calling me a hamassi anti seseme st troll fundie crap wife beater muslim…..? Or just leave it to Craig lol to do the dirty work :)

  50. 44. Craig:

    I’m sorry to hear that, mate… I don’t follow you this issue at all.

    46. Amir:

    I think the short answer would be three-fold: 1. The WW2 conflict was much larger and much more was at stake, 2. the power-balance between the two sides was much more even – again, more was at stake, and 3. the world has come a long way since then.

    My own take on the situation is 1. that the current situation is much more muddled, since Israel needs to attend some issues of their own before this conflict can see a solution, and 2. that, although outgunning the palestinians by a long shot, he israelis don’t have the neccesary power and number to do the job right. Israel needs to use overwhelming force to take down Hamas and bring order to Gaza in the blink of an eye, in order to spare the civilian population – Israel is not capable of such a feat. Therefore, what would amount to Israel’s greatest show of strength would probably get the job done, but it would take too long and cost too much in civilian casualties.

    I’m pro this war – I think Israel’s best bet is to cripple Hamas like it crippled Hizbollah in 2006. It’ll buy them some time, but of utmost importance is that this time is spent on trying everything on this earth to reach some sort of peaceful agreement with the palestinians. Stretch out your hand. Make them a good offer. Make them an offer which they, in the eyes of the world, can’t refuse! It’s a peace that’ll cost both sides dearly – use it well!

  51. 52: Adam

    I agree with you on some points. Israel could have already toppled Hamas. If it had, we would have probably seen much much more casualties on both sides. Going back to Gaza would be an ideological defeat for this government because they’re the same guys who advocated leaving Gaza a few years back. This would solve nothing. It would just make Gaza into a mini Iraq. Peace is of course the best option, but it is impossible with Hamas. In a sane world, there would be no conflict with the Gazans. What could Israel possibly give them that would stop the aggression (not a truce, but real peace)?

    I do believe there is one similarity between WWII and the war here (also the global war on terror): How do you win against an enemy who is willing to fight you to his last breath? I don’t agree that the world has come a long way since WWII. The west and south-east Asia did. The rest aren’t doing so great.

    To Sand Ape:

    We’ll have to wait until the operation has ended to see whether Israel had learned something from Lebanon or not. Many believe that the problem with the second Lebanon war was that Israel didn’t win a decisive victory. The problem with the first Lebanon war was that Israel stayed there after the operation was completed. These are the Israeli lessons.

    What do you think the lessons should be? That Israel should accept Hamas’ fire with no retaliation? Or to accept the conditions to the truce which will stop the Hamas firing from now until it has fully equipped itself? How would you deal with Hamas?

  52. What is Hamas?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1M4eH9Kk7I

    Hamas is being diassembled, the world should be dancing in the streets.

  53. Amir –
    “I do believe there is one similarity between WWII and the war here (also the global war on terror): How do you win against an enemy who is willing to fight you to his last breath? I don’t agree that the world has come a long way since WWII. The west and south-east Asia did. The rest aren’t doing so great. ”

    No one was more willing to fight to the death than the Japanese. But lo and behold, two atom bombs later they surrendered without conditions, and accepted the american occupation with enthusiasim never before seen. In return, they quickly became the second reachest country in the world.

    The moral of the story – if only the Palestinians were Japanese, we would all have it much better.

  54. If I was an occupying murderous thief and i wanted peace but was more powerful, i would do exactly what Israel is doing now. If I were a little less powerful, i would probably say sorry by electing a puppet prime minister and give half of the land back.

    So the sooner the better. Israel will do it one day anyways. And Church will go one and Israel will still be the chosen children of God before the covenant was transferred to us Christians and Muslims alike. Babies will cry..the sun will shine…and there will be haters for what i just said :)

  55. If I was an occupying murderous thief…

    Implication being, you aren’t? Under what circumstances did your family come to the United States? Are those circumstances fundamentally different than the circumstances under which so many Jews moved to Israel? And if a majority of Americans who were here before you decided to evict you and your family by force, or put you in the ground, you would support that I assume? Right…

  56. “If I was an occupying murderous thief…

    Implication being, you aren’t? Under what circumstances did your family come to the United States? Are those circumstances fundamentally different than the circumstances under which so many Jews moved to Israel? ”

    My friend and I were discussing this concept today. How would Americans respond if Native American started lobbing missiles at them from the reservations, on the basis that non-Native Americans are an occupying power.

    I suspect that is would not go over well.

  57. “If I was an occupying murderous thief…”

    Psychological projection. ;)

  58. Really enjoyed Adam B. and Craig’s dialogue and discussion. I have to say I’m a little closer to Craig opinions. I suppose that’s because we’re both American but is is very refreshing to hear a lucid and fair account of a European’s opinion who isn’t blaming all the worlds problems on America or George Bush. Thanks to both of you.

  59. Thanks AIPAC:

    tedders Says:
    January 11th, 2009 at 1:39 am
    “If I was an occupying murderous thief…”

    Psychological projection.

    :) :):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):)

  60. THANK YOU CRAIG FOR ACKNOWLEDGING THE FACT THAT ISRAEL INDEED IS AN OCCUPYING MURDEROUS THIEF!

    Hence the proof you so kindly provided – in retaliation to my above statement of Israel being a powerful murderous thief, Craig said:

    Are those circumstances fundamentally different than the circumstances under which so many Jews moved to Israel? And if a majority of Americans who were here before you decided to evict you and your family by force, or put you in the ground, you would support that I assume? Right…

    THANK YOU CRAIG!

  61. I bet tedders is turning in his grave!!!!

    His response will be ummmm, psychological projection LOLOL :)

    :D

    SMILE

    :O :)

  62. Sand Ape:

    Is Israel a thief because it is occupying Israel, the west bank, or Gaza (well it left Gaza)? If Israel is a thief because it occupies the west bank, was Jordon also a thief for that reason? Can an Arab minority oppressing an Arab majority be a thief, or is that right reserved only to the Jews? Let’s face it, the only ones who were willing to discuss giving the west bank and Gaza to the Palestinians were the Israelis. If there weren’t an Israel, Palestine might have just been a part of the greater Syria, and no one could care less.

    No, you must have meant Gaza in your post, because that’s where Israel is doing what it is doing. So Israel wants to steal Gaza from the Palestinians. That makes no sense because Israel withdrew from that territory in 2005 and demolished all its settlements there. Think about that for a second. Israel deported thousands of its OWN people. Never mind what you think its intentions were in the past. Since 2005 Israel had no real interests in the Gaza strip. Please explain to me what Israel’s “real” plans for Gaza are, and how they fit with its conduct, i.e. evacuating the Gaza strip.

    Mmm… if I had my home stolen by someone who was stronger than me in any way, and after years of fighting him, I would get an offer for 93% of my home back (that’s more or less the offers that have been discussed), I would take it! Without thinking twice! Especially if he was willing to help me pay the mortgage. But that is just me. You’ll probably devote the rest of your life to fighting.

  63. ” bet tedders is turning in his grave!!!!”

    Nope, alive and well, dancing the waltz around your idiotic, irrelevant conclusions and ad hominem attacks. You got nothing man. :)

  64. 53. Amir:
    “What do you think the lessons should be? That Israel should accept Hamas’ fire with no retaliation?”

    Yes, that IS his proposal, actually. We have been arguing the pros and cons of this strategy in another topic…

    60. ted: You’re welcome…! :)

  65. @ Amir, you are unqualified to make statements based on your very defective untrue and misrepresented claim that Israel wants to give 93% of Palestine back.

    You said: Mmm… if I had my home stolen by someone who was stronger than me in any way, and after years of fighting him, I would get an offer for 93% of my home back (that’s more or less the offers that have been discussed).

    No such offer was ever made. All Palestine wants back is 23% of what Israel is still occupying according to the 67 borders. Not including all the excessively provoking illegal settlements. You are biased and biased people will slit their own mothers throat for a homeland and can lie their way out of a paper bag!

    @ Adam, the same goes for you. Although you have proven that you do have half a brain, but still, biased is biased.

    @ tedders”

    I got 2 words for you

    1.) Psychological and

    2.) Projection

    at your imaginary dancing of the waltz.

    You had that one coming bone head :)

  66. The concept of Israel is beyond noble and worth defending!

    The means to which this concept was achieved is beyond sheer evil!

  67. While rockets were being fired in past years Egypt, Jordan, & Israel were talking about all of this. The two Arab countries DID NOT want the people in Gaza to come to them with their “leaders” intact. Egypt will NOT open boarder to crossing because they bring problems with them always. For past 6 years Egypt knew this. Jordan always wanted those people GONE. They are notorious for being unwanted in Arab lands HOWEVER they are used by the Press continually for political or financial gain. The people buy news with tragedy in it. This is sick but true. Al Jazerra has always made money with “Gaza, Gaza, Gaza”. Sadly no one wants to admit the truth. This madness will never stop. Fatah had the money to make social programs that Hamas instituted – but did not do so. Arafat may have even taken the money! The truth of the Palestine Story is very complex because no one is without guilt or shame.

  68. M. Sheid so i guess its just ok for you to just kill them all then, eh?