In response

Reading some of the comments on my previous post was incredibly amusing, so I figured a proper response here is warranted. Let's go over this, shall we?

1) For those who say we don't do enough to protect the border, well, let's see. First of all, we have a very limited number of security forces in Sinai, and none of them belong to the army or military, both because of conditions the Israelis demanded in the Camp David Peace treaty. We are not allowed to spread troops, fly planes over the area, or drop bunkerbuster bombs like you guys. So, our capabilities in that area are limited because of you. You add to that the fact that the majority of smuggeling gets done through the Sinai Bedouins, who know the area better than anyone, and who we, for you, arrest and torture on periodic basis in order to have them stop the smuggeling, and you might find the whole notion that we are not doing "ENOUGH" to stop the tunnels a little fuckin redicilous.

2) For those who say that what happend is a mistake, well, fine, a sharpnel hitting a kid could be a mistake and an unintentional violation of our peace-treaty. But what about flying over the Borders? What about attacking Rafah from our air-space, repeatedly? That doesn't sound like an unintentional mistake, does it? Sounds rather deliberate if you ask me, No?

3) There is an old wise saying, I think most of you heard of it, and it goes something like this: "You better err in the side of caution". This means that if you are going to make a mistake, you better do it for the sake of cautiousness and not recklessness. Bombing an area this close to our border that sharpnel can hit our officers and children, well, that's many things, but cautious is not one of them. To do this you have to either be doing it out of maliciousness, or reckless stupidity. Now, if it's done out of the latter, and I hope it is, then it should be youe responsibility to not allow reckless and stupid people to bomb areas that close to our borders. Actually, you might be more inclined to keep reckless stupid people away from weapons all together. Yeah, that seems a tad smarter.

4) No one wants another Israeli egyptian war. I for one don't want one. That doesn't mean that we should be willing to endure direct reckless behavior that could hurt or kill our people and shut up about it in order to maintain this fragile peace. And it should be noted also on the Israeli side that many many people would like to see that treaty scrapped and to have Egypt be put on the frontline again. So, ehh, simply, don't give them any fuckin excuses, will you? Do not place us in situations in which our sovreignty is clearly violated, our peace treaty breached, our people are killed on the hands of your people, and then wonder why the fuck we are so angry. Too many people want us to go to War, Israelis, and you just keep giving them causes and excuses. Not smart. Not smart at all. And one day it will backfire badly.

5) In case of such a war, let's clear something up: Yes, your airforce will fuck shit up on our side, no doubt. However, we have a stash of USAID weapons accumulated for the past 20 eyars and not used, and some of it is pretty advanced shit. Also, we have nothing but people. Our Army alone with its current reserves is around 10 million people. That's more than the people in Israel. And we are not counting all of this uneomployed islamically-inclined angry "arab youth" who will volunteer. So we might not have a fast victory, or even one at all, but we can draw this out forever, and you don't want that, because you learned the lesson of the 1973 war: We might not have the best weapons, or the best trained people, or even the best war commanders, but we have people. Lots and lots of them. And we are willing to sacrifise hundreds of thounsads to defeat any enemy in times of war. This is not a threat or grandstanding. This is simple strategic reality, that states that we are better off being friendly. So let's stay friendly, shall we?

Comments

  1. A short response…

    1. I don’t see the problem in doing a sonic check for tunnels of a 10 mile border once a month – we’re not even talking military personel, so Israel wouldn’t have to become nervous. I do see the problem in you guys not being able to undisputedly be able to patrol your own borders as you see fit. Israel and Egypt really needs to come clean with each other on this – 1973 is pretty far off by now!

    2. Military violations of borders is unacceptable, even if they are not acts of hostility. Scandinavia had it’s fair share of russian transgressions during the cold war (we still do as a matter of fact!), and it’s simply rude, arrogant and plain illegal to practise such actions just because you’d have the upper hand in any potential conflict. Bad neighbourship is what it is! Which leads directly to…

    3. In a tension-filled area, it would be better to practice caution, and keep well away from anything that might damage unintentional targets, whether they’re egyptian border guards or UN aid workers.

    Still, what the heck are egyptian kids doing near the border of a warzone?!?

    As for 4 and 5, I wholly agree that an escallation of the war to include other parties, or even just a deterioration of Israel’s relationship with it’s neighbours is not in anyones (except Hamas, Hizbollahs and the likes) interest. I doubt that a war would become as bitter as you describe in 5, but why even risk it?!

  2. Agreed.

    Now, Can we move on please?

  3. Abu Sa'ar says:

    What Idit said :)

    BTW, did anyone see this reported anywhere other than that one Haaretz article? There’s nothing in the Israeli media about this. Not even in Haaretz. And that article was as vague as it could be.

  4. Adam B..those children were in the town of Rafah…an Egyptian town right on the border.

    I agree with Sandmonkey we will fuck up shit and stuff asses with Egyptian hand picked cotton If we go to war…and that aint an exaggeration.
    We’re fuckin crazy. Wer’e boiling to go kill some Zion pricks..and give mercy to the good Joooz.
    Abu Saar it was vague because if it reached alot of egyptians…well…read what i wrote above and u will know what will happen.

  5. Sharif, I figured Rafah was a palestinian town, but I guess a small part of it lies on the egyptian side of the border. It explains Sam’s and your argument to some degree, but still…

    What the heck are children doing close to a warzone?! What are civilians doing there? Shouldn’t the egyptian government, even if it ain’t their shitty war, have removed their citizens from the danger zone?

    Abotu the vague article, CNN or any other western newsmedia wouldn’t give a hoot as to the reaction in the egyptian street – it seems odd that no more has been heard of this incident…

  6. The thing is that I was searching for news about this incident and I could not find anything. The IDF should of course be very careful. Mubarak is in a difficult situation, we certainly should avoid making things harder for him and ourselves. However, I am now less convinced that this incident took place at all. Or maybe the authorities in Egypt don’t publicize it too much to avoid stirring even more public protests. In fact, I think it’s rather hilarious that the Egyptian Sandmonkey should go to Israeli websites to stay informed about such developments in his country.

  7. This is fairly common stuff in history… and not just as regards Jews/Arabs and/or the Middle East region. An Arab soldier I once soldiered with told me the secret of peace in the Middle East: kill everyone in it, then there would be peace. At the time, I shifted my M16 a bit, thought about it for a while and decided he was being cynical. Now, nearly two decades later, I think he was being realistic.

    Honestly, I think that if an Arab/Israeli (you didn’t really think Egypt would stand alone, did you?) war breaks out, unless the US stands with Israel, the Jews are pretty much screwed with no Vaseline… which is not to say that the rest of you Semitic folks are gonna be in much better shape after Israel launches the Samson plan.

    On US involvement… hmmm… once upon a time, I didn’t believe that the US was firmly under the control of Israel. I thought it was just insane rants by KKK and other White supremacist groups. Now, I’m not so sure of that. Nor am I as certain as I once was that Israel is an innocent lamb.

    Its gonna be an interesting year. Dig some holes people, dig some holes.

  8. I do think that Israel is losing grip when it comes to control of the U.S. foreign policy. Wars, Terrorism and economic collapse have all helped many Americans realize that this uncompromising support for Israel is costing them way too much and that maybe its time they took a more balanced approach. If that does happen, then maybe we wont need to resort to middle eastern holocaust or any Samson inspired plans. And that wont just be good for Arabs, it will also be good for Israelis who may lose some of their arrogance but undoubtedly gain a lot more peace. The solution is in Washington.

  9. “we have a very limited number of security forces in Sinai”

    But you refuse UN Monitors on your side. As fare as I know under the Camp David treaty, UN monitors are already in the Sinai. So Egypt is just refusing to have them stop the tunnels.

    Besides that, why Egyptians refuse to let Gazans work in the Sinai?
    Israel don’t want them blowing up buses, but why Egypt doesn’t let them work?
    Do Egyptian hate Gazans? Afraid of them? Want to scarifies them to make the Jooz look bad?

  10. calm down, monkey. like mubarak would ever go to war with israel.. he’ll lose his precious US support. same thing about israel, obviously. the chances of war are a bit less than zero.

    but, just to put things in the right perspective, having tons of people doesn’t mean shit. what happened to those tons and tons of people in the 3rd armia in 73?

  11. adrian from Denmark says:

    Sam, I agree 75% with what you wrote, and it’s really tragic what happend.

    I just played with google earth and something surprised me (not interresting what exactly it was).

    Anyway, I can also see from the comments here, that other people are bit confused, and that is why I wanna suggest that you write a little blog entry about the geography and to some extent the history (you mentioned the Camp david agreement yourself) about the border area.
    I know that you are blogging because you wanna express your opinion, and not for giving free lessons in geography and history, but still – isn’t it worth the effort, if it gives people a better understanding of the situation at the border?
    Hope the victims will he a speedy recovery and avoid permanent injuries.
    Adrian

  12. SM,

    You fail to note the extensive violations of the Camp David Accords that Egypt has taken part in. The most important violation is the officially sponsored hate education being seen every day in the schools and media of Egypt. This is not the Muslim Brotherhood I speak of, it is NDP, and they are teaching Nazi-style hate to Egyptians, in clear violation to the Camp David Accords. Moreover, Egypt could have done *something* about the hundreds of tunnels between Gaza and Egypt, and instead did nothing. The country also did next to nothing to control the weapons smuggling to Gaza. If your country refuses to act to control the border with Gaza, then what is Israel to do?

    There is no evidence that Israel actually flew into Egypt to get rid of the tunnels, but if they did, they most certainly did not do so with the intent of harming Egyptians or Egypt. If Hamas were to stop its genocidal campaign against Israel, then bombing the weapons tunnels would not be necessary in the first place. Yet I see you blame Israel here, regardless.

    Sad. Very sad.

    You appear to believe that Israel should simply do nothing to protect its citizens, and walk softly to the gallows. That is contrary to the positions you held in the past, though what I can I say, people change. In any case, I am glad Israel, after eight years of being bombed, is finally deciding to not accept such open aggression from Hamas. I only hope they stay vigilant and refuse to back down.

  13. Although, I am convinced that incident at the border is nothing but an accident I been wondering how could Israelis bomb Gaza targets close to the border with Egypt without violating Egyptian airspace. I think it is physical impossibility. What if there is no violation but secret agreement with Egyptians?

  14. Do not place us in situations in which our sovreignty is clearly violated, our peace treaty breached, our people are killed on the hands of your people, and then wonder why the fuck we are so angry.

    Hopefully you’ll now realize the irony of your defense of the Palestinians righteous anger towards Israel for its actions in Gaza. As you point out here, you are upholding your double-standard of agitating for a war with Israel while treating Hamas with kid gloves for its deliberate murder of Egyptians. Nice. So for all those who make a big deal about the Egypt-Arab alliance, you’re missing the point. It’s all about Islam, and SM cares more for the Umma (even if he is an apostate) than he has previously cared to admit. Muslims subordinate reason to emotion, so don’t be surprised next time.

  15. I have no idea why my comments are being labelled as spam. But here is my second attempt to post a reply. As an aside, I want to add that JF is right; SM has a double standard with regards to Hamas and its murder of Egyptians.

    SM,

    You fail to note the extensive violations of the Camp David Accords that Egypt has taken part in. The most important violation is the officially sponsored hate education being seen every day in the schools and media of Egypt. This is not the Muslim Brotherhood I speak of, it is NDP, and they are teaching Nazi-style hate to Egyptians, in clear violation to the Camp David Accords. Moreover, Egypt could have done *something* about the hundreds of tunnels
    between Gaza and Egypt, and instead did nothing. The country also did next to nothing to control the weapons smuggling to Gaza. If your country refuses to act to control the border with Gaza, then what is Israel to do?

    There is no evidence that Israel actually flew into Egypt to get rid of the tunnels, but if they did, they most certainly did not do so with the intent of harming Egyptians or Egypt. If Hamas were to stop its genocidal campaign against Israel, then bombing the weapons tunnels would not be necessary in the first place. Yet I see you blame Israel here, regardless.

    Sad. Very sad.

    You appear to believe that Israel should simply do nothing to protect its citizens, and walk softly to the gallows. That is contrary to the positions you held in the past, though what I can I say, people change. In any case, I am glad Israel, after eight years of being bombed, is finally deciding to not accept such open aggression from Hamas. I only hope they stay vigilant and refuse to back down.

  16. I have no idea why my comments are being labelled as spam. But here is my third attempt to post a reply. As an aside, I want to add that JF is right; SM has a double standard with regards to Hamas and its murder of Egyptians.

    SM,

    You fail to note the extensive violations of the Camp David Accords that Egypt has taken part in. The most important violation is the officially sponsored hate education being seen every day in the schools and media of Egypt. This is not the Muslim Brotherhood I speak of, it is NDP, and they are teaching Nazi-style hate to Egyptians, in clear violation to the Camp David Accords. Moreover, Egypt could have done *something* about the hundreds of tunnels
    between Gaza and Egypt, and instead did nothing. The country also did next to nothing to control the weapons smuggling to Gaza. If your country refuses to act to control the border with Gaza, then what is Israel to do?

    There is no evidence that Israel actually flew into Egypt to get rid of the tunnels, but if they did, they most certainly did not do so with the intent of harming Egyptians or Egypt. If Hamas were to stop its genocidal campaign against Israel, then bombing the weapons tunnels would not be necessary in the first place. Yet I see you blame Israel here, regardless.

    Sad. Very sad.

    You appear to believe that Israel should simply do nothing to protect its citizens, and walk softly to the gallows. That is contrary to the positions you held in the past, though what I can I say, people change. In any case, I am glad Israel, after eight years of being bombed, is finally deciding to not accept such open aggression from Hamas. I only hope they stay vigilant and refuse to back down.

  17. Personally, I think it would have been OK for you to mention what you had done, (in keeping with some of your previous posts), with your shoes. It seems to be a sore point.

    Granted that bombing on the wrong side of the border is bad, but considering the lack of press, one might ask if the casualties in Egypt were caused by secondary explosions. You know, all the bombs, guns and ordinance in those ‘defensive’ tunnels might just have ended up being sympathetically detonated. And the Egyptian officials really don’t want to talk about that, do they? Hmmmm? Hamas would never booby trap one of those tunnels with Egypt, I am sure.

    And as for that USAID arms and ammunition dump, don’t you think that in a war with Israel, it might be the first thing to go? Not to mention how well the Egyptian army has maintained the stuff? Modern weapons and Arabs, what could go wrong? Its not like the weapons have to be cleaned or given annual tune-ups. I am sure that all of those US supplied maintenance schedules have been followed to the letter, InShalla!

    As for the strength of the Egyptian army……it is true that quantity has a quality all its own (think human waves), but they really won’t stand up to modern ordinance. Not to mention the level of training of the average Egyptian soldier, which is I am sure, world class, even with a male literacy rate of 83% and female literacy rate of 59.4% (CIA factbook). There is no doubt in my mind that every Egyptian soldier can read, not to mention reassemble his weapon in under a minute.

    And while we’ve all heard about the down side of bringing a knife to a gun fight, a lesser known but equally disastrous strategy is putting guns in the hands of poorly trained, illiterate, badly lead, but essentially ignorant troops, (though to be sure willing to die for the sake of Allah) with no experience and taking them to a gun fight. That doesn’t work so well, either.

  18. How do we know if there isn’t an agreement under the table between Israel and Egypt to allow Israel to use the airspace? Such a thing wouldn’t be spoken of obviously as to not inflame the Arab and Egyptian streets anymore.

  19. Hey, give Sam a break – he’s always been keen on bad-mouthing the Hamas-lead palestinians for their border-related transgressions against Egypt, and now he’s pissed at Israel for the same reason… I’d be pretty mad too, if my country’s border guards were killed by bombardments with which they had practically nothing to do!

    The fact that he seems more alarmed at less in Israel’s case just goes to show that he sets higher standards for them than he does for the Hamas-lead palestinians – israelis, you ought to be proud of that!

  20. Adam B.,

    It’s a pleasant thought, but Israel would rather be held to the same non-existent standards that the “Palestinians” are held to and consequently have no need to fear the threat of war over an accident (or, to be honest, the threat of war every single day of every single year from the Muslim world). But Israel isn’t Muslim, so it will always be held by Muslims to a standard that justifies Muslim aggression. Muslims will never mourn a dead Jew, no matter how innocent, and will never condemn a Muslim, no matter what kind of atrocity he commits. Remember that.

  21. SM

    Since I first started reading your blog…this is the first time I have seen you lower yourself to the ridiculous hyperbole I have read from some of the other writers that pop in.

  22. keep your shoes on, SM. you’re getting all worked up about nothing.
    Firstly, I haven’t heard any official complains from egypt about us violating your air space. I’m pretty sure everything we do on the border is in complete coordination with the egyptians.
    secondly, you don’t go to war because the other side made some (apperently minor) mistake. a few years ago, seven egyptians soldiers were killed by an accidental shot from a israeli tank. now THAT’s a violation of the peace treaty if there ever was one. did you wage war as a result? no, because that would have been stupid. shit happens, everyone was sorry and precautions were made so it wouldn’t happen again. If peace treaties were to be broken every time shit happened, no peace treaty in the world would last longer than a week.
    Thirdly, all your talk about egypt being set up lately have gone to your head, apperently. you sound like a israeli general at election day, seriously.
    and one last point, which I’d like to repeat, is that there is no way, absolutely no way, the egypt would go to war with israel, and vice versa. not because israel is affraid of egypt’s hungry masses, and not because egypt is affraid of israel’s air raids, but because both countries are completely depended on US financial support, which neither of us would get if we started acting naughty to each other.
    So yeah, I don’t expect this to have any kind of effect on israeli-egyptian relations. So if you don’t mind, I’m gonna hope for those people recovery simply because I’m a nice guy, and not because I’m affraid of the consenquences if they don’t.

  23. Sam,

    Not going to comment on airspace violations, because I know enough to shut up about things I don’t have enough information to form an opinion on.

    But I think you may have left out an option when you proposed “maliciousness or recklessness” as the only two options. There’s also “cautious, but not cautious enough” and “cautious, but not perfect”. Given the location of the tunnels being bombed, I’d say those latter two are more likely closer to the reality

  24. Truly the dumbest or second dumbest dialouge I have seen on this site…

    A pity…overall, aside from a couple resident morons, it was typically excellent.

  25. I just am extremely disappointed in the direction I have seen SM’s blog go in. It started in his absurd belief in ‘democracy’ in Egypt, even knowing this meant the Muslim Brotherhood would take power. When pressed to explain why he wanted the MB in office, he said he thought somehow this would teach Egyptians that Islam is not the answer, as Iranian have learned. This ignores the fact that he is only guessing that Egyptians would ‘learn’ this lesson, and in the meantime, in the best case scenario, a generation of Egyptians (and the world) would have to deal with a horribly oppressive Ikhwan government in the meantime. He seemed to not care about that. SM so believed in this ‘democracy’ cause, that he literally went to rallies and was an activist against NDP. I do not support NDP, but let’s get real.

    Then there is SM’s close friend, Lisa Goldman. She went from excellent and interesting blogger to someone who writes propoganda against her country. I do not know who has effected who in this case, but I am extremely disappointed overall.

    SM’s blog is not what it was. :(

  26. SM, you sexy man, you’re on point as usual.

    I’d like to move to Egypt to have babies with you (when you come back from the Gulf) so that we can send them off to fight the Israelis.

    Man, if Israel continues to get up in your biznaz I’m going to have some serious problems. NO one touches Egybt.

  27. Welcome to the club. The U.S.S. Liberty got attacked by the Israel Air Force during the very same war where President Nasser proclaimed to all of the world that the United States Air Force was bombing Egypt!

    At the very least, the Israeli government needs to apologize profusely and send reparations to the families of the deceased Egyptians. Israel needs to make it abundantly clear that it made a mistake.

    In terms of those tunnels, there are some technological solutions to the problem. Israel, Egypt, and the United States ought to work together to make sure that the tunnels are closed. This may lead to borders sealed with subterranean barriers of steel.

    Actually, Israel and Egypt ought to create a deep moat around an expanded Gaza Strip so that Gaza effectively becomes an island. (The expansion of the Gaza Strip would be compensated by land concessions elsewhere.) If Hamas objects such entrenchments, this construction project should then be called “The Battle of the Trench”. Under these conditions, Gaza would eventually become an independent city-state, although not under Muslim Brotherhood (read: HAMAS) rule.

    Remember, Gaza is effectively an island city-state anyway. This proposal would merely formalize its condition and lead to its rehabilitation.

  28. brooklynjon says:

    “At the very least, the Israeli government needs to apologize profusely and send reparations to the families of the deceased Egyptians. Israel needs to make it abundantly clear that it made a mistake.”

    Absolutely! The response of Jordan’s King Hussein (of blessed memory) after one of his soldiers murdered a bunch of Israeli girls in cold blood comes to mind. If I recall correctly, he visited the shiva house himself and begged for forgiveness. It was an impressive gesture then. A similar gesture – a hospital visit or so – as well as just compensation would be appropriate.

  29. The fact that he seems more alarmed at less in Israel’s case just goes to show that he sets higher standards for them than he does for the Hamas-lead palestinians – israelis, you ought to be proud of that!

    Pffffttt…. enough with the “higher standards”, Adam. Seriously. That’s a Western European talking point, and a throwaway one at that.

    It’s not reasonable to expect SM to treat Israelis as fairly as he treats Arabs. It’s simply not. He has a stake in this, and while I applaud him for his efforts to be objective and fair, when it comes time to choose sides, he probably will and I’m sure he won’t be choosing to stand with Israelis. I wouldn’t, if I was him.

  30. SM’s blog is not what it was. :(

    You’re right. He used to have a lot more Arab readers, and lot fewer Jewish/Israeli readers. Make of that what you will. I also miss the “old” blog. There was a lot more honest discussion going on, and a lot less propagandizing and trolling.

  31. “when it comes time to choose sides, he probably will and I’m sure he won’t be choosing to stand with Israelis”

    See nothing wrong with that.

  32. Roman Kalik says:

    See nothing wrong with that.

    Same here.

  33. Coppertopp says:

    There doesn’t seem to be enough info available for me to make an intelligent comment one way or another about the whole airspace thing or who would win if there were another war. We don’t know whether the Israelis notified the Egyptian gov’t first for those flyovers or whether they got permission, and even if permission had been given, Egypt wouldn’t be likely to publicize it for obvious reasons.

    I can see why you’re pissed off. I would be too, but shrapnel flying across the border isn’t enough to justify declaring war. Bombs would be a different story. But a sternly worded request to be more careful when bombing near a Egyptian population center is definitely in order. Also, I agree with commenters upthread that Israel should publicly apologize for the incident, most particularly the part involving the kids. Given that Egypt isn’t part of their dispute with Hamas, there really isn’t any excuse not to. Not only would an apology and some sort of restitution be the right thing to do, but on a practical level, it would be good PR for them, and Israel has received little in the way of good press during this conflict. Why pass up a perfectly good opportunity to look civilized amid all of this craziness? I think that if the incident were more high-profile in Western news outlets, they already would have issued said apology, which is just sad. Usually, Israel is pretty good about that sort of thing, so I don’t know why they are holding out now.

  34. “On US involvement… hmmm… once upon a time, I didn’t believe that the US was firmly under the control of Israel. I thought it was just insane rants by KKK and other White supremacist groups. Now, I’m not so sure of that. Nor am I as certain as I once was that Israel is an innocent lamb.”

    You remind me of myself when I first started changing my mind. I was, for all intents and purposes, a Zionist until around 2003. I was raised believing Israel was a righteous democracy surrounded by evil A-rabs, that “Palestinians” didn’t really exist and were the sole cause of the violence, the Jews had an inherent right to the land, etc. In fact, I was basically an extremist; I didn’t think Israel was doing *enough* about the Palestinians. I thought they should use total war tactics and basically wipe the Palestinians out. My most shameful moment was when I even supported those settlers that were going to bomb the Palestinian girls’ school. Paradoxically, I actually began to change my opinion while doing research to refute the claims of pro-Palestinian activists I knew on the Left (I’m a Lefty, by the way). I started thinking Israel wasn’t quite the innocent little lamb she portrays herself to be, maybe the Palestinians *do* have a point, maybe Israel isn’t as great a friend to America as she is portrayed…then it grew from there.

    Same thing with Israeli control of American foreign policy and the American media. I associated all of this with dumbass skinheads or the kind of racist and conspiratorial person who thinks “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” is a great historical document. When I started to learn the truth about Palestine, of course, I realized that Israel *does* control our foreign policy and, most importantly, our media. It’s why I grew up being intimately familiar with every atrocity ever committed by a Palestinian, but never hearing a word about the Stern Gang, Sabra & Shatila, the USS Liberty, etc.

    I think things are changing, though. More and more people are getting information from outside the MSM, and AIPAC and the other Zionist cronies aren’t able to completely control the story now. Hopefully, the majority of Americans will eventually support Palestinian freedom or AT LEAST become fed up with being Israel’s lapdog and personal ATM. Then we cut off the money and UN votes and leave the bastards holding nothing but their own cocks.

  35. Wow, didn’t mean to write such a long post.

  36. Nicely said Sandmonkey. That is the first time i have ever heard you say “We, to the Israeli’s” i will bet you a bottle of baileys or Dimple on that.

    Egypt will lose as a militarily as a force because after we kick the asses of the intial and reserve forces of the Israeli Armed Forces as we always do(Tedders, RK, Leo, Zvi, Craig – Please insert ad hominem and psychological projection here) then it becomes apparent to the U.S. and EU that 25% and 20% of the IDF forces are natural born citizens that have Israeli passports and speak broken Hebrew. That’s when they send their respective armies 20th century reinforcements to finish the job as is the case every fucking war that your average confused and scared Israel boasts about with their neo cons gangs!

  37. Reminds me…

    I have to send some money to AIPAC

  38. That’s when they send their respective armies 20th century reinforcements to finish the job…

    That hasn’t happened in the past. But I agree that it will happen next time. Which is why I am worried about my few remaining Arab friends, now. This seems like it is in freefall at the moment, and that scares the hell out of me.

    Anyway, you got a “C” for that comment. Your probably correct prediction of what is coming balances out your completely incorrect claims about what came before.

  39. Kurt,

    It’s funny how anti-semites are so allergic to being called that by name. If you think Jews are the monsters that you portray them as, wouldn’t you be proud to declare yourself their eternal enemy? And if the word “anti-semitic” throws you into fits about how the Arabs are also supposedly semites, then we can simplify to anti-Jew if you prefer. Or another word that starts with an N.

    When I started to learn the truth about Palestine, of course, I realized that Israel *does* control our foreign policy and, most importantly, our media.

    Interesting. How does Israel influence US policy on the Balkans? on Darfur? on North Korea? on Chechniya? on Tibet? on Yemen? For that matter, on Afghanistan? or South America? What interest does Israel have in America’s provision of the latest weapons and protection to the source of most Islamic terrorism, Saudi Arabia? I look forward to seeing your supposedly well-researched answers. Hopefully you see where I’m going with this, but if not, I’ll be happy to explain it to you in simple, easy-to-understand terms.

    AT LEAST become fed up with being Israel’s lapdog and personal ATM.

    Also interesting. Why do you not complain about the billions given to Egypt every year? Why do you not complain about the hundreds of millions given to Jordan every year? How about the hundreds of billions invested in Iraq and Afghanistan, dwarfing the amount given to Israel? Or even the hundreds of millions given to those who celebrate 9/11 (i.e. the “Palestinians”)? For the answer, please refer to my first question above. If it’s not clear to you, I’ll be more than happy to explain it to you in simple, easy-to-understand terms.

    By the way, if you don’t understand the difference between the Stern Gang and the state of Israel, or Sabra/Shatila and Gaza, etc. it only reinforces my opening question.

  40. “Reminds me…

    I have to send some money to AIPAC”

    Oh, I think the Jonathan Pollard Defense Fund could use the cash more this month. Anti-American spies & saboteurs can be expensive.

  41. I actually didn’t mention anti-semites, other than referencing conspiracy theorists who read “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” and I certainly didn’t accuse anyone of calling me one. However, if you’re going to equate “opposition to Israel” with “rabid hatred of Jews” than I have no reason to debate you. That’s the oldest gag in the game.

    I do admit to being curious as to how you think a “Jew-hater” such as myself could have been so rabidly pro-Israel, to the point of secular Zionism, for so long. Do you think I just woke up one morning and decided to stop supporting Israel because I suddenly realized I belonged to the Master Race? Or are you *allergic* to the idea that someone can be diametrically opposed to Israeli policy without being an anti-semite?

  42. “It’s why I grew up being intimately familiar with every atrocity ever committed by a Palestinian, but never hearing a word about the Stern Gang, Sabra & Shatila, the USS Liberty, etc.”

    What a laugh, Robert Kennedy, 1972 Munich olympics, Pan Am Flight #103 on and on ad nauseam …??

    Surely you jest in your comparison. Are you naive or just stupid? Oh. I’m sorry you already answered that, “(I’m a Lefty, by the way)” :)

    http://avpv.tripod.com/AmericanVictims.html

    http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Palestinian+terror+since+2000/Victims+of+Palestinian+Violence+and+Terrorism+sinc.htm

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Terrorism/palterrortoc.html

  43. Kurt, you are exactly the same as me dude, except I did MY research to better understand Judaism and even wanted to study advanced kabbalah but was shocked to find the main affinity with Judaism was constant reprimand from G-d for breaking the covenant promised to him. Then I said oh-oh, that doesn’t sound good. Now I understood why the Talmud portrays the prophets as regular humans with some nasty personal traits, such as being womanizers, homosexuals, drunks, thieves and madmen etc. I guess in essence it has a lot to do with looking good or repenting to G-d and jumping through a lot of hoops to appease him, just as the other 2 major religions do as well.

    I was raised American and although I was of Arab decent, I was anything pro American, especially if that’s what would stop me from being outcast and it meant to be able get girls. But when conflict broke out, I wasn’t trying to condone the unbalanced killings of unarmed Arabs, especially the ones that have been trapped in a fish bowl like is the case with Gaza.

    But in the end I came clean.

  44. Kurt,

    You can be diametrically opposed to Israeli policy without being an anti-semite as long as you are consistent, e.g. a unilateral pacifist. But to pick and choose and subject Israel to different standards than the rest of the world: e.g. your silence at the billions poured into the Arab world without wondering aloud about Arab control of our foreign policy and media; to bring up the Stern Gang, but not acknowledge that it was the government of Israel which crushed Stern, and condemned its atrocities; to bring up Sabra and Shatila but not feel any of the same outrage over the tens of thousands of Muslims killed at Hama or during Black September or even the Tel al-Zaatar Massacre (Christian on Muslim violence)…. yes, that makes you an anti-semite, as painful as that may be for you to hear.

    To make it simple for you, you unconsciously believed that Muslims killed by other Muslims is acceptable, but Muslims killed by Jews (no matter that it is in self-defense or unintentional, as in this case) suddenly crosses the line. That irrationality and inconsistency is what separates those who legitimately oppose Israeli policy (say, the unthinking pacifists like Lisa Goldman) and the anti-semites (like most Muslims). Of course, you could simply be deeply ignorant about the issue, but then that would make you a liar, given your previous claim of extensive research.

    Your early support of Israel is probably due to the environment you were born into. Just as the vast majority of Muslims and Europeans irrationally hate Jews because they were born into that environment, you were probably a supporter of Israel because you were born in an environment that respects Western values. As you shifted left on the political spectrum and came to hate Western values, as all leftists do, you also began to hate Israel.

    Do you think I just woke up one morning and decided to stop supporting Israel because I suddenly realized I belonged to the Master Race? Or are you *allergic* to the idea that someone can be diametrically opposed to Israeli policy without being an anti-semite?

    By the way, failing to differentiate between opposing Israeli policy and the existence of Israel itself (as you imply by your abandonment of the support of Zionism) leaves only two possibilities. Either you truly are an anti-semite, or you don’t understand the most fundamentals of the issues involved (e.g. the definition of Zionism). I’ll leave that for you to answer.

  45. Good point on the smuggling tunnels, SM.

    The Camp David treaty should be reviewed and renegotiated if Israel is looking for a real solution to those tunnels, doesn’t matter how long or how hard they bomb those tunnels..There will always be another tunnel and more being dug, and there can never be enough and adequate Egyptian forces to deal with it effectively due to the treaty.

    Other than that, stay the hell away from Egypt’s side of the border. This treaty is proving more and more to be a liability…And kudos on giving the Muslim Brotherhood and Islamist factions more political ammunition, that’s real smart of ya.

  46. JF, With your permission I would like to publish your comment on a blog.

  47. Steven,

    By all means, although I can’t claim that any of the ideas I expressed are original. Indeed, I find that they must be repeated endlessly to combat the oldest hatred.

  48. SAM! You make perfect sense, of course. However, you know we have to be careful to reserve judgment, esp. around a potential conflict. I think it was an accident, and you know, we don’t know what is really going on behind closed doors. When I worked on my Masters in Political Sociology, it was quite clear that the media is the arena where things are aired but decisions and deals are made behind closed doors and do not come to light for years, if ever. I imagine that Egypt is only too happy to have Hamas subdued. Probably why they are not making more noise about this incident. Ditto for Fatah.
    I just hope that no shrapnel gets you! What would we do without you? :)
    Seriously, I hope that the IDF will be very careful in all respects and that all Egyptians will be safe. Could you give us an update on those who were hurt?

  49. Steven,

    By all means, although I can’t claim that any of the ideas I expressed are original.

  50. Thanks Kurt…

    I think I will double my contribution to AIPAC and send some cash to Jon as well…

    Good idea.

  51. Man, I’ve been reading your blog now for over 2 years, but it stops now. Something has got a hold of you, and I dont know what it is but it’s making your blog unreadable these past few months. The GAZA situation and your ridiculous post is pretty much the last straw…I’ll be looking for informed commentary from bloggers living in the ME elsewhere.

    The reasons, about 5, and strangely enough mirroring your last post:

    1. “…For those who say we don’t do enough to protect the border”. I am sorry to say that for all your apologies on behalf of your government, the simple fact is that if the Egyptian govnt wanted to stop all smuggling (or at least the weapons, after all, we all gotta make a buck) they could have. Take your silly excuses and stuff em.

    2) “…For thos who say that what happend is a mistake” Well, the flyover into Egyptian airspace was not a mistake was it? It was PLAINLY OBVIOUS that the IAF was given permission to do so. If you got a problem with that, then go protect your own government.

    3) “…There is an old wise saying”. Frankly, I don’t know what your point is here, but it’s in your post and its incomprehensible.

    4) “…No one wants another Israeli egyptian war”. Listen, it’s nice to be patriotic, but the sort of rant you are on about here (dispite your stance that these are “…just the facts”) is not worthy of your past few years of blogging.

    5) “…In case of such a war, let’s clear something up”. This is the mutant son of ramble no. 4 above. Without getting into an infinite discussion about the Eyptian armed forces vs Israel, if I were you (or any “pumped up Arab nationalist” from any other country bordering Israel, I’d be more worried about the 7 million psycho Jews that how many tens of millions of brothers you claim will throw themselves on an IDF machinegun nest. History, facts, logic and reality are not on your side with this particular agrument my friend.

    Anyway, it’s my first comment ever after 2 years of readership….

    So long and good luck

  52. Dinky Londoner says:

    Kurt: “I do admit to being curious as to how you think a “Jew-hater” such as myself could have been so rabidly pro-Israel, to the point of secular Zionism, for so long.”

    It’s quite common for people to go from one extreme to the other – and it seems you were always an extremist (“I thought they should use total war tactics and basically wipe the Palestinians out.”) Many previously secular people (Jews, Muslims and Christians) suddenly ‘get religion’ and become totally fundamentalist. At worst, several converts to Islam went on to become terrorists.

  53. Steven, I have no objection.

  54. I was raised American and although I was of Arab decent, I was anything pro American…

    Am I the only one who thinks it a bit sketchy for so many… “anti” people… to be talking about what “was”, before they became bigots? I’d really like to be able to talk to their neighbors and high school friends and find out if its true. There’s a lot of epiphanies being claimed around here!

  55. #43, I have no objection.

  56. “and it seems you were always an extremist”

    Touché Dinky!! :)

  57. All the bitterness :(

    Reminds of that 80’s hit by tears for fears, “Everybody wants to rule the world.” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMjzxHzZnnI

    :)

  58. In the last 5 years the UK have invaded Spain twice, the French have invaded Switzerland, the Germans have invaded Liechtenstein and the Mexicans have invaded the USA. In all cases the governments said sorry, their ambassadors got a stiff note and in each case the two governments knew it could easily have happened the other way around. Stuff happens all the time.
    Israel should send a big cheque, a couple of bunches of flowers and a Hallmark card to the wounded. A public apology would help.

  59. Well, I defend Sam. He justly does not want Israel or any other group of people bombing or assaulting the people of his country. That’s reasonable. But as to the claim that some have made that in the end–no matter what—he is going to chose to side with Arabs because he is Arab, NO, I cannot agree. He has always shown himself to be a free-thinker, a critical thinker who will try to align himself with what is right. There is no evidence to the contrary.
    I hope that the incident is clarified and that an apology and restitution is forthcoming from Israel. Most of all, I hope that those who were injured are mending and will be ok.

  60. Great post SM!

  61. @Tedders:

    “What a laugh, Robert Kennedy, 1972 Munich olympics, Pan Am Flight #103 on and on ad nauseam …??”

    Good job completely missing my point even though you quoted my exact words. You rattled off a list of Palestinian terrorist attacks like I didn’t know about them when the point I was making was that I HAD HEARD EVERY DETAIL of these attacks over and over again my entire life. What I *hadn’t* heard about were atrocities committed by Israelis. If you had told 7 or 8 years ago that Israel had ever massacred Palestinian civilians, let alone brazenly attacked an American warship, I would’ve laughed in your face and called you a liar.

    That was the point I was making.

  62. “we are willing to sacrifise hundreds of thounsads to defeat any enemy in times of war.”

    No matter how much Egypt detests them, no matter how much of a threat they are to the state, how many is Egypt prepared to sacrifice to defeat the members of Hamas? Zero. Because Hamas portrays itself as the enemy of Israel first, and Egypt’s detested regime second. Hatred of Israel gives Hamas credibility.

    Of course, there are treaty limitations on the deployment of Egypt’s armed forces in the Sinai. That provides Egypt with a good excuse to plead weakness and ask Israel to do the dirty work of taking down Hamas. But Sandmonkey, that doesn’t change the fact that when and if The Revolution comes, the Egyptian people and Army aren’t going to surge across the Canal and attack Israel, treaty or not, just because they want an outlet to express their bigotry, don’t you agree?

  63. the iron sheik says:

    SAND MONKEY is really an asset of iranian intelligence assigned to the jerusalem brigades to foment violence amongst jews and arabs. he is a devout follower of a shi’a cleric from isfahan. and for the past couple of years has douped all of us into thinking he was a the egyptian ambassador to the american inbred right.

  64. Kurt, Israel does NOT massacre civilians. Seems you have been taken in by misinformation, Pallywood productions, and general propaganda. I have read several times about alleged massacres; they never happened. Jenin—-nope, an international investigation ruled that it never happened and these were folks that were gleefully hoping to find something against Israel.
    I think that it is important to realize also that any group is made up of individuals, and that only really flawed people demonize an entire group of people.
    There is a campaign to vilify Israel and the people of Israel. This war that they are waging? Check out what the Allied armies did to German cities during WWII. Bombed them to dust. No warning leaflets, no phone calls to warn the residents that they would be operating in the area. Nada. Trust me, Israel is doing all that they can do to avoid harm to civilians. Check your sources for these accusations. You are simply misinformed.

  65. “It’s quite common for people to go from one extreme to the other – and it seems you were always an extremist (”I thought they should use total war tactics and basically wipe the Palestinians out.”) Many previously secular people (Jews, Muslims and Christians) suddenly ‘get religion’ and become totally fundamentalist. At worst, several converts to Islam went on to become terrorists.”

    I concede your point about people sometimes going from one extreme to another, but their conversion is almost always religious in nature. Like John Walker-Lindh, Adam Gadahn, or Eric Rudolph. I was an atheist (or at least irreligious) when I was 5, I was an atheist when I was 15, and I’m an atheist now at 25. I only point this out in case you think I’ve converted to Islam or an odd strain of Christianity.

    As for me “always being an extremist,” you’re half correct. I used to be a pro-Israeli extremist, but that was due to my upbringing and indoctrination. All I ever heard was that Palestinians were evil and Israelis were innocent victims (to cut it short). However, I strongly disagree that I’m now an anti-Israeli extremist. In my opinion, an anti-Israeli extremist would be a person who condones or excuses suicide-bombers, katyusha attacks on civilians, or supports Hamas and Hezbollah, etc. I believe that the Palestinians have the right to resist Israeli occupation and oppression, but I condemn terrorist attacks and *all* jihadi groups.

    I really don’t think this matters, though, because I get the feeling certain people here consider any pro-Palestinians to be extremists. Tedders decided I was of low-intelligence because of an off-hand remark about my place on the American political spectrum. Would he have called me stupid if he knew I supported the Iraq War, demonstrated in solidarity with Denmark and am an ardent foe of A.N.S.W.E.R. and MoveOn? We’ll never know, because my support for democratic socialism automatically makes me stupid. Which sounds like a rather *extreme* thing to say.

  66. Kurt, I know that there are good Palestinians. I know them personally. I believe that many of the people in Gaza (and to a lesser degree in the West Bank) have been brought up on a steady diet of hatred toward Israelis, and that is victimization truly. The indoctrination of the young is well known, including encouraging them to become suicide bombers. That is about as extreme as one can get when children are sent by parents to perform suicide bombings. I object to extremism, so I think that we have that in common. Please remember that the Israeli people on the street are just like most people everywhere and just want to live normal, peaceful lives. I’m exasperated by the Palestinian leadership and those Palestinian people who choose conflict and violence over opportunities for peace. I absolutely hate conflict and if this one would end in peaceful relationships between the two groups, imagine what beneficial things could be accomplished through mutual support and cooperation.

  67. brooklynjon says:

    Kurt,

    You lost me when you said you never heard of Sabra and Shatilla. That atrocity has been the source of so much comment about Israel through the years. And of course, it needs to be said that the massacre was actually NOT CARRIED OUT BY ISRAEL but by Lebanese Christians.

    And the Liberty? Which hole have you been hiding your head in?

    Oy vey!

  68. What’s happening to you Sandmonkey. I’m starting to respect you.

  69. i luv egypt says:

    Adam, you are fucked mate!!!! you want civilians and children displaced from their towns cuz israel decided to bomb that area???? wtf..such people cant afford a bloody daily meal and u expect them to study the war zone prone area with their sophisticated GPS and move out???!!! and ay, if they can not afford it, it is not the peacful israelis fault, nope its their fault for not moving out.!! then it aint Hitler’s fault, jews shud ve moved out of Germany b an means to other parts of the world. Its the jews fault in the holocust. Adam you are fucked mate, if you dont even beleive in the moral rights of ARAB civilians and children then fuck off mate. Or migrate to Israel and i gurantee you a day for u to join the zionist army and bomb some ugly lookin arab children. One day mate just wait for ur fun

  70. @BrooklynJon:

    I’m sorry, but it’s true. I hadn’t heard of Sabra & Shatila (Leb Christians pulled the trigger, but we’ll never agree on Israeli culpability, so let’s agree to skip it) until I was 19 or so, the same with the USS Liberty. I imagine it was a combination of pro-Israeli indoctrination and the famously awful American education system. The problem, as I see it, was that I knew virtually every crime and atrocity carried out by or in the name of Palestinians, but NONE by Israel. Even my knowledge about the creation of the Israeli state turned out to be 90% false and 10% omission.

    Take the Liberty incident, for example, since you were so surprised by my ignorance of it. Maybe it’s unbelievable to you, but I truly had not heard of it until I was around 19. When I *did* hear about it, I was shocked. Not phony milking-the-outrage shocked, but truly shocked that Israel could ever do that to the US military. The “accident” story was clearly bogus, so I was utterly dumbfounded by this. Maybe I was naive in my youth, but at the time I truly thought the US and Israel were brothers-in-blood and genuine allies and friends. Then I voraciously read more and more about the history of the Arab-Israeli Conflict and became more outraged, more shocked, and more filled with a sense that I had been duped and used. I slowly came to my current opinions on the conflict over the course of several years.

    I’m getting way off-topic. I just wanted to let you know how I came to my beliefs. Too many people, on both sides, view the conflict in black & white. That one side is all good and righteous and the other is all evil and corrupt. I don’t see it that way. Although my stance is fueled by a deep personal conviction that what has been done, and is being done, to the Palestinian people is cruel and inhuman, I’m not a dope that believes Hamas is fighting for freedom or that suicide-bombers are just misunderstood kids.

  71. @Lynne:

    We’re actually not that far apart in our thinking, Lynne.

    First, there has to be a two-state solution. Palestinians MUST agree to live beside Israel. I actually agree that it was a terrible mistake to create Israel in the first place, but this is 2009 not 1949; the Israelis born in the intervening decades aren’t responsible for the actions of their ancestors nor should they be thrown out of their country, even if its founding was distasteful. No more “drive the Jews into the sea” nonsense.

    The Israelis MUST understand they’re in a unique situation. This is why they need to “show restraint” in armed conflicts when other nations don’t. The fact is that no matter how often people use examples like “what if Canada attacked America” the Israeli-Palestinian situation is completely unique and can’t be compared readily compared to other nations. There must be drastic and seemingly unfair (from the Israeli POV) concessions of land and resources, simply because the fact is that the Israelis just came in and set up an ethno-religious state in an long-inhabited area. Not to mention the grotesque human rights abuses.

    The problem, of course, is that neither you nor I have any idea how to implement this. None. Nada. I don’t know how to stop the fighting. I just know that far too many people on both sides of the conflict want an all-or-nothing solution. Neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians can ever achieve a “total victory” in this conflict, be it militarily or otherwise.

    Really, I’m stuck. The best I can do is try to alleviate a little of the immense suffering, poverty, and injustice of the Palestinian people to the best of my meager abilities. I’m not a genius or powerful man, but I *do* care and try to help out.

  72. The fact is that no matter how often people use examples like “what if Canada attacked America” the Israeli-Palestinian situation is completely unique…

    Not only is it not “unique”, it isn’t even unusual. The only thing extraordinary about the situation is the way the world treats it. You don’t have to look very far to find examples of Arabs driving people from their homes and taking their land, for example. It’s happened several times during my lifetime. If we look outside of the ME, how many examples can we find?

    You attempt to seem balanced was not bad, but you kinda blew it when you started throwing the pejoratives around, directed at Jews. And yes, I did say Jews and not Israelis, because some of those pejoratives were aimed at their religion. Hamas has a religious ideology too, you know… and unlike the Jews, they actually kill people because they think God wants them too. No mention of that from the atheist, though! You waiting until the Jews are gone before you go after Islam? Or do you want the Christians to be gone as well, before it is time for the Muslims?

  73. I’m sorry, but it’s true. I hadn’t heard of Sabra & Shatila (Leb Christians pulled the trigger, but we’ll never agree on Israeli culpability, so let’s agree to skip it) until I was 19 or so, the same with the USS Liberty. I imagine it was a combination of pro-Israeli indoctrination and the famously awful American education system.

    On the other hand, it might be your own stupidity. But why go that route, when you can blame Jews and the American zionists who are responsible for providing you with a sub-standard education? I went to US public schools, and the only thing I noticed that was “substandard” was the intelligence of a lot of the students. In the old days, they used to have different classes for students of different abilities… so the stupid kids were all in one class so that they could all be stupid together and not hold everyone else back, and the average kids were divided into 2 or 3 groups that were only slightly different, and the really bright kids were in another group. Worked pretty well. I guess now they just have “special education” and “not special education”. I don’t see how that could possibly work, but I guess it is at least not a violation of anyone’s civil rights… doesn’t really seem like a plan the Jews would come up with, though! Sounds more like a plan somebody like you would come up with.

  74. Kurt, just wanted to say I know where you’re coming from, since I come from the opposite direction. I grew up in a really lefy home, and slowly became more balanced in my opinions over the years. That’s not to say I was completely, or even hardly, ignorant of palastenian terrorism; living in israel you can’t possible not notice such things, but I was taught to belive that the palestinians resort to terrorism because they simply have no other choice. And since we israeli have other choices but occupation and military might, we’re the ones at fault. I never doubted what my parents have taught me, but around 15 I became intrested in history, sociology and political science. although jewish/israeli history were never my main intrest (back then it was europe, now it’s east asia), I came to realize, on my own, that things are not as clear cut as my parents have told me.
    I don’t even know how to classify myself in the political spectrum anymore. I haven’t voted in 3 elections, because my ratio of agreement/disagreement to all the candidates is about the same.

  75. 44. JF:

    “…and Europeans irrationally hate Jews because they were born into that environment”

    Again, let me point out that this is utter bollocks!

  76. Well this is a sad day for a blog I had enjoyed.

    Sam with respect you’re losing it. There’s no way anybody in Israel would deliberately harm you or yours.

    By the same token it’s clear from reading the Egyptian press that Israel is deeply hated and little understood, and antisemitic blather is routinely published there. Indeed this and other incitement, including from the West and the former Soviet Union have created a tragic situation in which little people and little states are just pawns.

    Imagine a world in which people didn’t bite on hate and tried to see past the surface of things! Is everybody blind? Are we just puppets to be jerked around by people who want us to believe the worst about each other?

    The people who’ve commented on Egypt’s lack of concern for the smuggling tunnels are correct. By the same token I don’t see any real help for the Palestinian people coming from Egypt, even though many have relatives there. How many have been allowed to immigrate?

    So please do not blame the victims of terror who are hurt and killed, whose lives are ruined by weapons that come through the tunnels. Try to work within your own country or community to fight prejudice, help us build a better future. Try to help the people in Gaza by sending them hope and ideas instead of fueling their hate.

    Kurt, you are a classic antisemite. I am dismayed to read your comments. I think that your story of learning to hate Israel is a crock. The fact that you could even make a statement along the lines that Israel (read Jews) control the US government is a dead giveaway.

    I’m sorry the situation in Gaza has infected even this blog.

    Will people please get a grip? The Israelis have been bombarded for years, their citizens are being terrorized, and stone antisemites are coming out of the woodwork all over the world because they have finally decided to try and do something not only about the rockets but about the fact that violent, genocidal groups are harming everybody in the region and will kill any hope for progress, peace and democracy let alone modernity and the unity required to fight our overstressed environment.

    We need to work together to fight poverty, end hunger, save what’s left of our animals, our plants, our oceans, our skies. We do not need incitement and we do not need blind hate and we certainly do not need antisemitic conspiracy theories.

    So shame on all of you who are feeding the beast.

    Sadly I fear that reason is another prime loser here. Increasingly, this feels like newsclips I’ve seen from the 1930′s. The verbiage is the same, the hatred is the same, the hyperbole and lies are the same. The assumptions that evil intentions must be responsible are the same. The lack of understanding and compassion are the same.

    Can we step back from the brink please?

    Or will we allow the hate filled fundamentalists, people who would take us back to the Dark Ages, to finally win? I had thought this website stood for something else.

  77. 69. i luv egypt:

    Uh, yeah… I must be f*cked, if f*cked means that someone ought to care a bit about their lives, or at least the lives of their children! I must be f*cked, if f*cked means that I feel that the egyptian government should care enough about their fellow egyptians to temporarily get them out harms way and definately out of a friggin’ war zone… Hold on, that’s not f*cked; that’s just plain logic!

    Who cares whose fault it is? If you see a truck doing a right turn in front of your bicycle, do you continue just because you’ve got the right of way? Hopefully not! You stop the bike and yell at the truckdriver.

    Jeez, that’s one of the most hatefull comments out of nowhere I’ve ever read!I usually don’t like the phrase because of it’s condescending nature, but you really should get some help!

    “…and u expect them to study the war zone prone area with their sophisticated GPS”

    I never said that checking for tunnels was the responsibility of the locals – I said that the egyptian government should have no trouble sending in a non-military unit with a GPR surveyor or similar equipment once a month to search for tunnels.

  78. Actually, I agree with Sandmonkey. At first I didn’t, then I realized an important truth.

    There is a sane way of doing things and an insane way of doing things.

    The sane way is simple, the insane way makes one idiotic compromise after another.

    For example, giving over about a tenth of your country to lunatics who want you dead and never had a state before in their lives is INSANE.

    Giving it over to, in particular, a maniac that wants you dead and will educate the populace to the same over the next two decades, is INSANE.

    Throwing out your own citizens who sweated blood to create a community, from a segment of land, in order to make it Judenrein, is INSANE.

    Expecting a country you defeated in battle to stop arms smuggling to people they are more closely related to, is INSANE.

    Especially when, as Sandmonkey points out, our treaty stipulates that they cannot have full use of their military to do so.

    This “Peace Process” is lunatic. It is dragging everyone in the region to a far more terrible war than it was meant to prevent. What happens when we find ourselves in a similar position with Fatah on the West Bank? Will the Jordanians be patient as well? We must kill this idiotic, insane concept as soon as possible. I do not agree with even Ambassador Bolton that the Gaza should be given back to the Egyptians. You might have been able to pull that off twenty years ago, now it is impossible. The Gaza population is too far gone for that. This is our mess, now we have to clean it up.

    As for Egypt and Egyptian pride. I am really sorry Sandmonkey, but while no Israeli, not even the lunatics, want another war with your country, at the same time they are now at war with a bunch of madmen that they have helped create. The nature of war is that bombs fall everywhere. You must simply be patient, and bite your lip when you want to scream at us. There is no other choice.

  79. Actually, I agree with Sandmonkey. At first I didn’t, then I realized an important truth.

    There is a sane way of doing things and an insane way of doing things.

    The sane way is simple, the insane way makes one idiotic compromise after another.

    For example, giving over about a tenth of your country to lunatics who want you dead and never had a state before in their lives is INSANE.

    Giving it over to, in particular, a maniac that wants you dead and will educate the populace to the same over the next two decades, is INSANE.

    Throwing out your own citizens who sweated blood to create a community, from a segment of sand, in order to make the entire area Judenrein, is INSANE.

    Expecting a country you defeated in battle to stop arms smuggling to people they are more closely related to, is INSANE.

    Especially when, as Sandmonkey points out, our treaty stipulates that they cannot have full use of their military to do so.

    This “Peace Process” is lunatic. It is dragging everyone in the region to a far more terrible war than it was meant to prevent. What happens when we find ourselves in a similar position with Fatah on the West Bank? Will the Jordanians be patient as well? We must kill this idiotic, insane concept as soon as possible. I do not agree with even Ambassador Bolton that the Gaza should be given back to the Egyptians. You might have been able to pull that off twenty years ago, now it is impossible. The Gaza population is too far gone for that.

    As for Egypt and Egyptian pride. I am really sorry Sandmonkey, but while no Israeli, not even the lunatics, want another war with your country, at the same time they are now at war with a bunch of madmen that they have helped create. The nature of war is that bombs fall everywhere. You must simply be patient, and bite your lip when you want to scream at us. There is no other choice.

  80. I Laugh — I laugh — I laugh

    when I hear people like Lynn and 60% of others use the term Palestinian terrorism LOLOL — OH DEAR GOD!

    That’s like if someone breaks into your house and you try and throw them out, then you are the terrorist — see the irony here — and the cops come and arrest you and make you live in your own attic. Of course you will fire rockets out of your attic at these imbeciles.

    Israel committed BREAK AND ENTER and ethnic cleansing.

    STREN GANG, IGRUN, HAGANA, LEHI, Yitzhak Rabin, Ariel Sharon, Rehavam Zeevi, Dov Hoz, Moshe Dayan, Yigal Allon and Dr. Ruth Westheimer.

    How Israel even gained temporary recognition as a country is beyond me.

    To use the word Palestinian terrorists is to be intellectually dishonest as well as severely retarded. Quite being so niave!

  81. Thanks JF!

  82. And Adam (74), I can not speak for Europe however the vast majority of information available int he UK is extremely biased against Israel.

  83. Oh yeah Sand Ape? Well my family owned land and businesses in Baghdad before we were all thrown the fuck out. Get that? We’d been living there for TWO THOUSAND YEARS before the Iraqis, YOUR BROTHERS, decided to make their precious country “Judenrein” and chucked us out.

    I never heard of my dad taking up guns and shooting Arabs at random despite all the disgusting shit he had to put up with. I never heard of my uncles self detonating for Allah because they’d been treated like garbage. And I’m expected to be sympathetic to these lunatics.

    Well, the Iraqis got what they asked for. Not that they liked it much.

    We deserve a country of our own. We deserve to live somewhere where we can decide what happens to us. If you care so much about the Palestinians, then feel free to resettle them on my family’s land in Iraq.

    Or on land formerly occupied by Libyan Jews, or Iranian Jews, or Moroccan Jews. You’ve stolen plenty of land and money from us. If you care so much, then file a petition to give the Palestinians what your governments took from us to them.

    But the truth is, everything you are saying is political bullshit. If the “Palestinians” (another bullshit term) wanted to live in a paradise that would make Dubai look primitive they could have it in twenty years. All they have to do is stop firing on Israelis and learn the meaning of TOLERANCE.

  84. 82. Steven: I won’t disagree with that, nor even claim that the situation is different in the rest of Europe. I’m just pointing out that europeans as a whole do not feel any HATE towards jews or Israel for that matter. “We” might be quite critical of israeli actions, “we” may even be biased against Israel, but that does not equate hate…

  85. Double-standards qualify as “bigotry”, in my book. Does bigotry not equate to hate? I’ve always been taught that it does. Europeans feel differently?

  86. Who said anything about double-standards? I just said that they are critical towards israeli views and actions, and, by consequence, sympathetic to the situation of palestinians. Be careful not to see things from your own viewpoint all the time, Craig…

  87. Adam, you’ve been telling me for 3 days that the reason Western Europeans are so critical of Israel and the US and not towards anyone else are because you hold us to higher standards. Higher standards = double standards. When you have one set of expectations for one group, and a whole different set of expectations for a different group, that is a double standard. By definition.

    So to answer this question:

    Who said anything about double-standards?

    You did :P

    I was actually just calling it hypocrisy, myself. I don’t think it has anything to do with standards, I think Western Europeans bash Israelis and Americans because they simply don’t like us. That “higher standards” crap doesn’t fly, when Western Europeans don’t even meet the standards they claim to expect from us. BBC just published an article today accusing Israel of using White Phosphorous in Gaza. I wonder if it ever occurred to the BBC to accuse Great Britain of using White Phosphorous in Afghanistan and Iraq? Do ya think? lol. Shit like that just makes me scratch my head and wonder how in the hell the US ever ended up on the side of Western Europe in the first place… and how can we detach ourselves without causing World War III to break out.

  88. “@Tedders:

    “What a laugh, Robert Kennedy, 1972 Munich olympics, Pan Am Flight #103 on and on ad nauseam …??”

    Good job completely missing my point even though you quoted my exact words. You rattled off a list of Palestinian terrorist attacks like I didn’t know about them when the point I was making was that I HAD HEARD EVERY DETAIL of these attacks over and over again my entire life. What I *hadn’t* heard about were atrocities committed by Israelis. If you had told 7 or 8 years ago that Israel had ever massacred Palestinian civilians, let alone brazenly attacked an American warship, I would’ve laughed in your face and called you a liar.

    That was the point I was making.”

    Kurt, the point I was making is that for every “atrocity” committed by the Israeli’s, your examples used here:

    Sabra & Shatila-The Phalangists stood under the direct command of Elie Hobeika, who later became a long-serving Lebanese Member of Parliament and, in the 1990s, a cabinet minister. He was said to have been deeply influenced by the massacre of much of his family and of his fiancée by Palestinian militiamen at Damour in 1976. The Israeli military’s Chief of Staff was Lt. General Rafael Eitan, and Israel’s Defence Minister was Ariel Sharon.
    A major outcry erupted both in Israel and internationally, because the Sabra and Shatila camps had been under the control of Israeli Defence Forces (IDF). Yet the Phalangists, who committed the killings, were spared the brunt of the condemnations. Some commentators have suggested that the Israeli military may have been involved in the incident to some extent.

    The Stern gang:
    The Stern gang never had more over a few hundred in membership and whose goal was to forcibly evict the British authorities from Palestine, allowing unrestricted immigration of Jews and the formation of a Jewish state. The newly-formed Israeli government banned the organization under an anti-terrorism law passed three days after the Sept 1948 assassination of the UN mediator Folke Bernadotte.

    Are hardly compared to the hundreds if not thousands of premeditated, planned, government sponsored kidnappings, murders, bombings, hijackings that have been committed in the name of Palestine. It’s what sane people would call an out of proportion response. I think your examples are poor and judgement is lacking.

  89. 87:

    Higher standards than the palestinians or the other states around them; not higher than our own, obviously.

    Double standards demands that you view two equal parties – imagine having one standard for Betty and another from her brother Bob… Something like that. In this case, europeans have a higher standard for americans and israeli because they view their societies as having reached a more modern level than, say the palestinians – imagine a parent compared to his/her child… noone would call having different standards for the two double standards, right?

    Other than that you’re entitled to your opinion, uninformed though it may be…

  90. Ron you were exiled from Iraq because your race rallied behind terrorist elements that started to ethnically cleanse Palestine. What did you expect? To act like it was unprovoked is typical proof of your false Judaism. As if after living there in peace for thousands of years, you and your family would be thrown out. I know you can’t bare the truth, I too wish you get a homeland pretty soon, so you guys wont have to keep twisting the dam fucking truth to aid the existence of a murderous entity.

    Good will triumph over evil, end of story!

  91. Israel’s actions speak for itself, shooting trapped fish in a barrel says a lot about a country!

  92. “Good will triumph over evil, end of story!”

    Correct, Hamas vermin are being exterminated as we speak!! Yay!

  93. Please observe the psycho somatic AIPAC’HEID supremacist syndrome displayed with convulsive tremors of psychological projection as IDF runs babies over while failing to kill an ideology. PSYCHOLOGICAL PROJECTION INDEED!

  94. Warning warning, troll meltdown!!! Heeheehee ;)

  95. I’m sipping an ice – fucking – T idiot :)
    YOUR THE ONE WITH HIS OWN VERSION OF THINGS AND THE — LOL — PSYCHOLOGICAL PROJECTION!

    Hee-Hee!

  96. @ post 90, was it — TOO HOT TO HANDLE — or why else did even the pseudo intellect tedders resort to the wit of his 10 yr old instead of breathing in a paper bag before spewing from the AIPAC handbook :) ?

    I Love You too Teddy Bear :) e

  97. Pulling a 10 year old into the fray just like your organization Hamas, nice!

  98. Isnt it your organization that is the largest single organized terrorist group in the world, that is running over 10 year olds with tanks, even as we speak right now? Have you no brains or any shame? What in humanities name is your terrorist organization doing? RUNNING OVER CHILDREN, I suppose the AIPAC hand book tells you to say it was a mistake too!

    Go ahead if you have any balls and ANSWER, instead of avoiding serious rationale debate like you did my comment 90?

    Have you no shame?

  99. noone would call having different standards for the two double standards, right?

    You completely lost me, Adam. You basically defined what a racist double standard is (you even said that nobody could consider Arabs and Jews to be “equal”) and then you claimed nobody would call that a double standard? Even in your explanation, there is a patronizing tone towards both Jews and Arabs… they aren’t as good as you (Europeans), and that’s why even ignorant street people in Europe think that they have the moral authority to dictate what standards the two groups should be living up to.

    And you call me uniformed? Well, this is another one, like when you gave the British a free pass for breaching the Vienna Conventions (what do you think would happen in Europe if Americans started attacking European embassies and the US government did nothing? lol) where I just don’t know what to say.

  100. “RUNNING OVER CHILDREN”

    Where’s your documentation or proof of tanks running over ten year olds that weren’t carrying weapons?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHhs9ihSmbU&eurl=

    http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2009/01/video-of-hamas-kidnapping-children-for.html

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmXXUOs27lI&feature=related

    http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NWI5MWI3OWYxNTgwZTVmNjIzM2EyNGY0Zjk0MzE0NWU=

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpNLYH1qFWs&feature=related

    I have seen the reality that evil is sympathetic; self-defense is terrorism; warped opinions, are journalism; relief organizations are intended to relieve those who do good jobs of using the media; civilians are okay to kill, but only if they are Jewish; all world leaders are fluent in the language of duplicity; and, perhaps most confounding, Hamas and many vocal Palestinians really do care more about exterminating their own children for propaganda purposes or Jewish lives more than preserving their own.

  101. brooklynjon says:

    Kurt,

    I find it very difficult to believe that you know every crime perpetrated in the name of the Palestinians. Just as I am simply incredulous that you never heard about Sabra and Shatilla. It was extensively covered in the press. All press. About the only thing missing from virtually all the press coverage was that while the IDF certainly bore indirect responsibility, they didn’t actually commit the massacre.

    On the other hand, quite a few of the crimes that appear in the press as having been perpetrated by the Israelis never actually happened, or were done by someone else. Most recently, the UN aid truck driver that was actually not killed by Israel. But the list is extensive. Fake casualties or casualties perpetrated by Israel’s enemies that are then pinned to the IDF. Happens all the time. All. The. Time. And, of course, who suffers when Hamas assassinates a UN truck driver, causing the UN to suspend aid to Palestinian civilians? Well, obviously, the dead driver (who should rest in peace), but also the hungry Palestinian civilians, with whom I have no beef (Twosret, I’m talking to you!).

    Ultimately, the bigger issue is how to move forward. You had a large area of land that contained two populations. For better or worse, rightly or wrongly, the populations were separated in the 1940s and 1950s. Many people of both groups became refugees. One group settled their refugees, consolidated into a country, and granted something close to equal rights to those of the other group within it’s borders. The other group placed its refugees into refugee camps and used them as political pawns for over half a century, while excluding those of the other group within their borders from enjoying equal rights.

    Moving forward, both groups have to give up their dreams of eliminating the other. Both groups of refugees need to be fairly compensated for the property they lost. Both groups need to focus on rebuilding lives and economies, and educating their children. Both groups need to reject absolutist religious ideologies. Both groups need to stop believing that G-d wants them to kill the other guy. It’s really that simple. Where, precisely should the borders be? I really don’t know with certainty. But it’s not a huge parcel of land we’re talking about, and if compensation is just, it shouldn’t matter all that much. Certainly not enough to be willing to risk your children’s lives and their future.

    bj

  102. Tedders what a ramble, what a farce, notice how your links are all propaganda with the blue eyed Zionist kibbutz in this link http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2009/01/video-of-hamas-kidnapping-children-for.html

    Why not bomb another UN sanctuary you outlaws. Your support for Israel just made about 500,000,000 people support anything that can stop Israel, even if they ARE terrorists themselves.

    I will provide the link to the flattened (2 yr old) as it turns out!

    If America only knew, even you might come clean! You have been mislead!

  103. There is no excuse on earth for Israel sorry you can post as much as you can.

  104. OMG it turns out it is not a 10 yr old baby or a 2 yr old baby, but a 5 month old baby that was run over by the tank! What horror! http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/video/video.php?v=68746634128&ref=nf

  105. Mohamed lol when the shit hit Egypt’s backyard it gives some people some new perspectives :-)

  106. Ya I liked that comment too by Mohamed – WTF I am starting to respect you Sandmonkey! LOL!

  107. brooklynjon says:

    two,

    “Mohamed lol when the shit hit Egypt’s backyard it gives some people some new perspectives :

    The same happened to me when I was the victim of terrorism.

  108. @BrooklynJon:

    As for ending the violence and finding some way for the Israelis and Palestinians to live with each other, you and I are basically in agreement, though we support separate sides. I wrote a post to Lynne somewhere up the page about the exact same thing.

    Concerning the various atrocities committed by either side; obviously it was hyperbole when I said I knew *every* single Palestinian atrocity. I was trying to make the point that I grew up hearing about the evilness of the Palestinians and the blamelessness of the Israelis. I grew up being told the myth that the Palestinian people don’t exist and that Palestine was basically empty when the Zionists started settling. You have to admit that the American media, government, and religious community is beyond lopsided.

    Also, perhaps I should have pointed out that I was born in 1984. Maybe Sabra & Shatila got fair coverage in the US when it first occurred, but I never heard anything about it by the time I was old enough to care or even understand such events. On the other hand, I was taught about Palestinian violence from the same period and earlier constantly, particularly bombings and hijackings from the ’70s. Do I even need to mention from which perspective my school taught the wars of ’48, ’67, and, 73?

    But I’m getting kind of tired of defending what I did or did not know, and when I did or did not know it. I either have someone telling me they know my childhood better than me, or Craig pronouncing me a moron for not fully comprehending the Palestinian-Israeli Conflict by the time I was 19. Its tiresome.

  109. Brooklyn on, you can;t go into rob a bank and then whine when you get shot at. Israel tried a hostile take over, your grand parents did it and now the grandchildren of the displaced are continuing to fight (terrorism), that’s all.

    The sooner you see that, the sooner there will be a happy Zion. Israeli is a sovereign state under whose law? The UN that it disregards, or who and what give a nation its status? I am really not trying to tick you off, just hoping that you can see why the Arabs are so passionate about it. You took their land dude! What did you want them to do lolol, pull out party hats? Come on!

  110. Still waiting on your reply tedders to this http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/video/video.php?v=68746634128&ref=nf, come now, I really would like to see if you have a heart underneath that blind patch on your eye ;)

  111. Kurt, hi, just read your reply. Thank you for your reasoned response. Frankly, I’m grateful that you do not hate Israel. The only way to understand the conflict is to research the history (which I have to do myself because I cannot keep it all straight). It is seldom or ever mentioned that most of the Jewish people have been driven from their homes and businesses in many of the Arab countries. I do not dislike Arabs, on the contrary, I just wish for a way to forge neighborly relationships with them, to be a good neighbor to them and to live in peace and goodwill. You are certainly not a moron for not understanding this conflict; it’s complicated! And, its’ also crazy! I’m impressed that you are so young and yet you are interested in this political situation. Thank you again, Kurt, for your response to my comment :)

  112. Never mind, the video was removed, same as always!

  113. @Lynne:

    Thanks for the reply, Lynne. It’s true, I only started to research the subject in-depth when I was around 19. I’m now 25 and have a much better grasp on the situation, especially since I’ve visited Israel and the Palestinian Territories in person, but I don’t think an outsider like myself can ever truly understand the nuances of the conflict.

    You’re completely correct about Jews being persecuted in Arab countries, by the way. From what I understand, Jews got along fairly well in Arab nations for a long time (or at least the Jews got much better treatment there than in Christian Europe) until the rise of pan-Arab nationalism, which was an absolute disaster for the Jews. And a disaster for the Arabs, really. Any blood-centred ideologies tend to wind up being horrorshows it seems. One thing I try to impress upon people is that my support for the Palestinian people has nothing to do with support for any greater “Arab cause.” The only cause I support for the rest of the Arab/Islamic world as a whole is the implementation of liberal democracy, which is something I support everywhere.

    Tangentially related to the discussion of Jews being displaced in the Arab world is my opinion that European Jewry should have settled in the United States after WWII. I realize that it’s not the ethnic homeland a lot of people want, but America has never been a bastion of anti-semitism (especially compared to Europe) and it probably would have worked out better in the long run.

    Of course, what’s done is done and can never be changed, and our whole discussion has been about how to deal with repercussions of past decisions.

    Heh, that’s the hard part.

  114. Kurt, yes, I understand you much better now :) The Jewish people were seeking a place where they could live without persecution, and at one time, the British offered Uganda of all places. Jews in the US live without much fear, but even in the US, occasionally there is danger. The KKK, for example, hates the Jewish people. Many people believe that Jews control “everything”. I have heard people in the US say the most outrageous and hateful things about the Jewish people. Thank goodness, these bigots are a minority. .. and speaking of small, I believe that Jewish people comprise just 0.01 percent of the world’s population, and of course, have a range of resources and incomes. As long as there is bias though, there is the potential for danger, which is why a Jewish homeland is so important.
    I, too, support the cause of the Palestinian people, but here is where we (many Palestinians and myself) very much disagree: I believe that there is land enough to share. The British tried to partition it in 1947, and the matter could have been resolved there. Can you just imagine what all the energy and resources that have gone into conflict could have accomplished for the people of the region? I just think that violence is not the answer and that people would be well advised to search for commonality and reasons to care for each other in order to effect a resolution to this long-standing conflict. As you say, here we are and how to resolve things is the hard part.

  115. Sandmonkey,

    I buy the people argument, to a point. Sure you have millions of personnel. But the strength of a nation is measured in how quickly they can outfit, train, and field divisions. The strength of the Romans was not superior fighters, yes they could fight, but they were able to stand up, train, and field armies to replace units lost in battle or stupidity.

    So my question is not do you have the people, but rather, can your government field armies and their logistics to replace the losses of war?

  116. 107

    bj,

    Invading another country air space and launching rockets is an act of war. If the sissy in Egypt have the deceny he will respond back, too bad he doesn’t.

  117. Kurt,

    It is so easy to say we want things to work out but when it comes to reality it doesn’t so they will end up killing each other till the end of time.

  118. Twosret, hi, hope that you and your family are well :) I’m reading but not up to responding much. Flu! I teach school and have caught every germ the kids have had this year, and now: flu. sigh

  119. Tedders,

    “Correct, Hamas vermin are being exterminated as we speak!! Yay!”

    False my dear friend tedders innocent children and women are being exterminated by Israelis.

  120. Hello Lynne,

    Thanks for asking I am doing okay. Sorry to hear about your flu and hope you get better soon.

  121. Of course Innocents are being hurt, I and the world grieve, Hamas is responsible for those deaths. The fact of any child being hurt is horrific. I have never and will never advocate injury to innocents, it is a tragedy. Hamas has brought all this on the Palestinian people. Hamas is in the process of paying for their irresponsible behavior. Why the silence in the Arab states leadership? Because they know Hamas (arm of Shia Iran) is a threat to the entire region.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_YrStHhckQ

    Hitler wasn’t shit compared to these psychos. Reap what you sow losers(Hamas).

  122. Twosret, glad that you are doing well and still blogging :) Take care, and thanks for your kind wishes.

  123. Israel is not a nation-per-say! Israel is a second nation to its combatant inhabitants. The no. of American passports within the IDF itself, is second only to the American armed forces itself!. Yes, that means American pilots are bombing Hamas and killing innocent kids right now.

    So yes, Israel is not a country per say! It is a presumed second-first-home (if-you-may) to EU & U.S. passport holders alike. The rest of the combatant inhabitants are Africans and Arabs that were kicked out of their respective countries once the conflict (which Israel instigated BTW) had broken out!

    It is rightfully a conspiracy within itself to deny that Israel’s stupendous influence is a conspiracy theory! Yes Hitler was a scum bag, but a lot of what he said about the poor persecuted Jew’s remains true. til this day. hence the real reason they deserve a homeland. Craig is the one who brought that to my attention.

    Oh ya, and God himself too. He wasnt messing around when he said that this nation in particular, for making all the wrong decisions and continually breaking its covenant with him, will wonder to the ends of the earth and blood will flow like rivers for Jew and Gentile alike. Gathering them again in the second Israel only to collect their souls. That sounds pretty intense to me.

    So AIPAC please call God the racist antisemite bastard now will you.

    WAIVER: for what its worth, not all Jews are bad. Some of them are nice folks but the half that support Israel are very bad. Now this puts the onus on Israel and puts the entire world into conflict and quite frankly, a terrible predicament as well!

    Thank you tedders and others for supporting them, because although they are at fault, I would hate to see them get slaughtered twice, every century as well. Plus they build some dam good settlements that will be handed to Abbas in a few years anyways.

    I’m just saying you know!

    Nighty Nite!

  124. “You basically defined what a racist double standard is (you even said that nobody could consider Arabs and Jews to be “equal”) and then you claimed nobody would call that a double standard? Even in your explanation, there is a patronizing tone towards both Jews and Arabs… they aren’t as good as you (Europeans), and that’s why even ignorant street people in Europe think that they have the moral authority to dictate what standards the two groups should be living up to.”

    No, you’re just reading what you want to read once more… What I said was that europeans view each society and say “Hmm, what can we expect from these guys…? Well, Israel is a functioning democracy; so is the US. Palestine, on the other hand, is run by a terrorist organization, that doesn’t allow other parties to try and represent the people. We can reasonably expect more common sense/reflection from Israel or the US than from Palestine.” This has nothing to do with the worth of an individual; it has to do with the rationality of a state and it’s citizens…

    “And you call me uniformed? Well, this is another one, like when you gave the British a free pass for breaching the Vienna Conventions (what do you think would happen in Europe if Americans started attacking European embassies and the US government did nothing? lol) where I just don’t know what to say.”

    Yup, I do – you keep on harrassing others for alledgedly not knowing what they’re talking about, while at the same time throwing unresearched “facts” around you ad libitum. I already pointed out your errors regarding your view on the Vienna convention and international law in the other topic – too bad you haven’t reflected on this…

  125. Biased, wrong,, incoherent at best!

    Hamas was elected democratically!

    Israel stole the land simply because it wanted it.

    I rescind what I said about you having half a brain.

    Your facts are all wrong and biased!

    You have no case!

  126. No, you’re just reading what you want to read once more… What I said was that White Supremisists view each race and say “Hmm, what can we expect from these guys…? Well, this guy has white skin; so is that feller. On the other hand, that Black guy is bad at shakespere, he may be able to run quickly but that is all he is good for. We can reasonably expect more from the white guys than that black guy.”

    ==========

    Sorry Adam, it may sound nice but when you treat two people differently – no matter how you paint it – it makes you (and these other Europeans you are talking about) hypocrites. Their double standards allow the Arabs can openly call for genocide with no serious consequence – while demanding (what they see as) perfection from Israel.

    As Craig so aptly put it: you have perfectly described what a racist double standard is – and more shocking is the fact you don’t realize it.

    Stop the double standards, treat all parties as equal.

  127. Steven, I disagree with you, for the same reasons I posted earlier…

    I’m glad to see that Craig is beginning to see it like I do, though – post 115 of the Israel-controls-the-US topic:

    “Why does the BBC speak as if Hamas and Israel are morally and ideologically equivalent to each-other?”

    It has nothing to do with racism (such a misused word these days!) – it’s about culture, education and system. If you have a culture with a mindset that’s 500 years “behind” the modern world, that’s gonna show. If you have a level of education that’s way below that seen in modern nations, that’s gonna show. If you have a political system, that doesn’t really reflect the population, it’s gonna show. It’s got nothing to do with race whatsoever, and it’s quite natural to expect less if the circumstances are as mentioned above.

    Let me give you an extreme example, just to illustrate:

    Imagine two similar situations in two different locations – you’ve just dropped your wallet in a street in London/the rainforests of Brazil and a passing pedestrian/stone age level tribesman picks it up and starts sorting through the content. Chances are you’ll take offence at the rude behaviour of the London pedestrian, whereas you’ll probably smile and signal for your wallet to be returned from the stone age tribesman in the rainforest. Why? Because you don’t expect the same level of understanding from the two, even though they’re both human. An extreme example, but maybe it’ll help you see my point…

  128. Your presumed superior intellect is your folly and will be your downfall oh ye children of Israel!

    :)

    Have a good one!

    :)

  129. “but maybe it’ll help you see my point…”

    Uhmmmm. not really.

  130. ted, too bad… :(

  131. I understand you, but I disagree – everyone should be treated as equals but your ethnocentrism is a weapon used against the people of Israel.

  132. equals that submit to the opressors rule of law, then they are equals…:)