Re-branding Ghaza

It's always refreshing when you read something as brilliant as this in the morning:

Let’s just face it: the “decency of the world” is relative. Perceptions and attention are all that matters when you want to tell/sell your story. If Israel, a mighty country which has brutalized the Palestinians for so long still manages to sell its story to the world, why is it that the Palestinians are incapable of selling theirs, although they are more deserving of sympathy and help?

What the Gaza Brand CANNOT be:

The creation of a sustainable core idea for telling Gaza’s story to the world, needs a thorough clean-up of the language we use to describe our tragedies. The clean-up needs to get rid of the language of exaggeration, of comparisons to past “epic” events and of generalizations, racism against jews and heroic Islamic/Arabic self-aggrandization.

In other words, it is not business as usual.

The brand cannot be the “Gaza Holocaust”: the “Holocaust” brand has already been taken by the world’s Jews. No one takes us seriously when we talk about Gaza’s Holocaust. Let’s acknowledge that suffering of the Palestinians today, although tragic and totally unacceptable, still is not directly comparable with the systematic annihilation of the Jews by the Nazi in World War II.

The brand cannot be “Gaza’s Epic, Heroic Battle of Victory”: If we keep talking about epic battles, the world might actually believe it and thus will fall into Israel’s trap of portraying its war on Palestinians as war of equals. It is NOT a war of equals and we should not claim we’re winning it.

The brand cannot be “Wipe Israel off the Map”: This sounds aggressive and, frankly, is not credible. Given that Israel actually has nuclear weapons, they can more credibly talk about wiping an Arab country off the map.

The brand cannot be “Hamas”: Political movements come and go. Gaza is not about Hamas. Gaza’s problem and Palestine’s problem was there before Hamas.

The brand cannot be about “glorifying death”: If all we’re saying is “we don’t care if we die” others will just shrug their shoulders when the bombs fall on our little concrete huts.

What the Gaza Brand SHOULD be:

The brand should be about defying mindless power: it should shame Israel for inflicting violence upon a population, resulting in the shameful ratio of 100:1 (killing 100 Palestinians for every 1 Israeli killed).

The brand should be about Palestine
and the dream of a people of life in a free homeland.

The brand should be all about Human Rights
as a universal concept that Palestinians seek to attain

The brand should have Global Appeal: it cannot have global appeal while being chauvinist or aggressive. It should also be connected to the suffering of people everywhere, not just people in Palestine.

It should be about Hope: without emphasizing hope and belief in a better tomorrow, you can hardly inspire people to support you. Remember, in a few days we’ll be living in the Post-Bush, Obama era. Hope is a word that has gained new currency.

Focusing the message to tell the world what happened in Gaza might only a piece of the puzzle. But in a media saturated world, we’d better start thinking clearly about what we want to tell the world.

About damn time too!

Comments

  1. Having read the complete article, I can’t say I agree on his basic standpoints, but I pretty much agree on all his suggestions for a solution. I’m quite sure it would make Israel take on a different attitude as well – in fact it would rid Israel of having to take on an attitude it probably doesn’t care all that much for…!

    The main problem with his logic is that his aim is to inform the West.

    Sorry, but the West IS already informed – we just don’t all agree with him.

    The one’s who need to be informed are the people of palestine, the people in the region, and particularly their leaders, although I have a sneaking suspicion those leaders are perfectly aware of what’s going on…

    Let’s see how much luck he has in convincing the average palestinian, let alone Hamas.

  2. It’s an improvement, SM, but after reading the post in its entirety (and the comments) it seems to lack a bit in the “sincerity” department. That’s not good, when you want to pull on people’s heart strings!

    Still… if most of those suggestions were followed, I’m sure it would result in a lot of people changing their opinions about the issue. I think the author is grossly underestimating the degree to which terrorism has harmed the Palestinian cause – he seems to think it’s been mostly a failure to get the right message out – but since he calls for an end to terrorism, it may not matter that much whether Palestinians and other Arabs have actually renounced terrorism because they think it is immoral, or renounced it because they think it isn’t effective. End result is the same, and it is up to Arabs to deal with underlying morality issues in Arab societies.

  3. With all that being said (and very well said it is) it should be noted that the greatest weapon to fall into the hands of victims in Palestine is the world wide web. In all of the last 60 years no greater advancements have been made than those made in the last 2-3 years by the internet and youtube especially.

    The effect of the internet on this conflict has reached a point of affecting american media. Never before have I seen as much clarity in American news to the extent of dedicating articles to the deaths of civilians and informing readers and viewers of criticism of Israel without dubbing it anti-semitism.

    In order to re-brand the tragedy you must observe what has changed in the past couple years, why and how it can be extended.

  4. Although he sounds very reasonable, his basic premise is wrong.

    If anything, the world is way, way too focused on this conflict and the plight of the Palestinians while virtually ignoring conflicts where 100,000s or even millions of people have died.

    Or are Palestinians worth so much more than the rest of us mere mortals?

  5. Andrew Brehm says:

    “About damn time too!”

    Wow. If they did that, they would be free and independent within days.

    But why give in completely to the Zionists? He is talking exactly about what Israel kept proposing and exactly what the “resistance” was fighting all those decades.

    They can sell this to Israel easily (“Hey, Zionists, we are finally doing what you want.”), but how will they sell it to Hamas and the PLO (“Hey, freedom fighters, we are doing what the Zionists want and loving it.”)?

  6. Andrew Brehm says:

    “In all of the last 60 years no greater advancements have been made than those made in the last 2-3 years by the internet and youtube especially.”

    Yes. The world can finally see that the “freedom fighters” hide behind children.

    If you think transparency helps the terrorists, you are wrong.

  7. Andrew, I don’t think transparency is the issue; it’s the ability to spread propaganda (or “your own version”, to put it diplomatically) to millions of people instead of just thousands…

  8. Abu Sa'ar says:

    That’s a bit like rebranding crude oil as eye moisturizer.

  9. Abu, consider that this rebranding would also entail a revision of behaviour…

  10. Adam B. – no, it’s just rebranding: creating a different appearance without changing the substance. A revision of behavior would also create this appearance, true.

    But this, alas, is not on the menu.

  11. By the way, the israelis should be all out of Gaza now, according to the news… Pretty quick I must say!

    Now, while the cease-fire is still intact, would be an excellent time to introduce this new brand!

  12. Abu, I see this:

    “The brand cannot be “Wipe Israel off the Map””

    …and this:

    “it cannot have global appeal while being chauvinist or aggressive.”

    …as an appeal to change the palestinian behaviour.

  13. Abu Sa’ar is right. I just re-read it and there is no call to end terror attacks. They are just trying to put lipstick on a pig, if they are planning to continue supporting suicide bombers and other terrorist atrocities. That’s what kills them (figuratively) in the US, and probably in a lot of other countries. That’s just not gonna fly, not under Obama and not under any US Administration.

    As James Carville would say: “It’s the terrorism, stupid”

  14. Abu, I see this:

    “The brand cannot be “Wipe Israel off the Map””

    …and this:

    “it cannot have global appeal while being chauvinist or aggressive.”

    …as an appeal to change the palestinian behaviour.

    Adam, I see it as an appeal to change Palestinian presentation. Suicide bombings can be portrayed as defensive acts of desperate people, rather than aggressive acts of homicidal maniacs. Different language, and yet no change in the reality of what is actually happening. That may work in Europe, but it won’t work in America.

  15. It’s a call to a change in what is being said only, but then again the subject is what and how things are being communicated. That doesn’t have to mean that he supports terrorism. It’s just that that’s not what he’s talking about here.

  16. It’s too late for Israel to stop now, that would mean that they would have to admit to unspeakable truths and even the lost lambs of Israel can’t lie that well to attempt to cover it up for ever — or could they?
    Lying has become an inane survival tactic to the lost Hebrew nation, just as terrorism/resistance has become so deep rooted in Arab society as well!

    EASIER SAID THAN DONE if you ask me!

  17. NO RETREAT — NO SURRENDER!

  18. Craig:

    “Suicide bombings can be portrayed as defensive acts of desperate people, rather than aggressive acts of homicidal maniacs.”

    Point taken…

    Sand Ape:

    Let me finish that one for you…

    “NO RETREAT — NO SURRENDER – NO SURVIVAL!”

  19. That means the killer Jews will be responsible for the first complete genocide in the world, so I guess they will end up their homeland being hell! i know that’s hard for an atheist for you too grasp!

  20. Staright from the article and the mouth of a nuetral Jew, apparently not a scummy Zionist!

    A global public opinion should be formed that, at least, guarantees that Israel gets more heat next time it decides to mindlessly kill children, bomb schools, hospitals and UN buildings.

    Israel should be globally branded as the new apartheid-era South Africa.

    OTHERWISE ISRAEL WANTS…

    The majority of Arabs that have been killed to submit to Israel’s overwhelming use of force!

    — NOT GONNA HAPPEN FOLKS — !

    Suicide Bombings was nonexistent in the Middle East till Hezbollah – the Shia resistance group that was formed due to counter Israel’s occupation of Lebanon!

    Israel has no one to blame but itself, so live with it!

  21. Andrew Brehm says:

    “defensive acts of desperate people”

    Suicide bombings have always been explained as defensive acts of desperate people. Very few people ever wonder why they are committed not by the really starving poor, but by middle-class Arabs.

  22. “OTHERWISE ISRAEL WANTS…

    The majority of Arabs that have been killed to submit to Israel’s overwhelming use of force!”

    How can dead people submit to force?

    “Suicide Bombings was nonexistent in the Middle East till Hezbollah – the Shia resistance group that was formed due to counter Israel’s occupation of Lebanon!”

    Yeah, before that they remote-detonated…

    “…so live with it!”

    Ok, we’ll have to do that then. I’m sure we’ll all live much more comfortable and carefree lives than Hamas and their followers.

  23. You are right, I meant the surviving Arabs, not the dead ones.

    You will leave more care free than Hamas, well you are not even a part of the conflict, so i guess you are right about that!

    Next, you still fail to see that this is not about Hamas, this about Israel. That is the main problem. after Hamas, Iran, Hezbollah, Syria go away, then Israel will concentrate of Fatah again. Then when Fatah is gone, Israel will have to concentrate on Morocco, then Libya, then Egypt, then Jordan, Algeria, Pakistan, then Indonesia, then Malaysia.

    It’s all about the aggressor — Israel!

    Where does it end?

    It’s like living in a house that has termites, either you burn the house down or learn to coexist with the pests!

    Not a very good ultimatum if you ask me or 1,500,000,000 of the worlds population!

  24. Andrew Brehm says:

    It’s funny how Israel “wants” all sorts of things according to Arab propaganda, but never seems to do it when given half a chance.

  25. How about they simply stop shooting rockets? Crazy idea, eh?

  26. “Rebranding” this issue is like, oh, I don’t know, calling a unilateral cease fire by Israel a stunning victory by Hamas.

    And it is a matter of credibility….which is something the “Palestinian” cause distinctly lacks.

    Here’s how the ‘rebranding’ would actually have to work:

    -stop firing rockets and mortars.
    -create industry and business….without corruption.
    -create government institutions without corruption.
    -actually have human rights (not the OIC sham human rights based on Sharia.
    -Hamas will have to stop torturing Fatah Palestinians.
    -maybe stop teaching all Palestinian kids to hate the Jews.

    …….talk about fairy tales………..and they lived happily ever after.

  27. “Next, you still fail to see that this is not about Hamas, this about Israel. That is the main problem. after Hamas, Iran, Hezbollah, Syria go away, then Israel will concentrate of Fatah again. Then when Fatah is gone, Israel will have to concentrate on Morocco, then Libya, then Egypt, then Jordan, Algeria, Pakistan, then Indonesia, then Malaysia.”

    Sand Ape, I disagree with this point of view. In fact, I’ll go so far as to say that you’ve got it wrong.

    The israelis have a hen to pick with the palestinians and their brothers-in-arms, sure, and vice versa. They’re all gonna have to find some middle road though, at least if they want peace. But Israel has no problem with the rest of the nations you mention – why should Israel have a need to continue fighting if noone is attacking them? The agressor in this conflict is the one that DOES NOT WISH PEACE with the opponent – it happens to be Hamas, Hizbollah and so forth.

  28. “How about they simply stop shooting rockets? Crazy idea, eh?”

    Yeah, how come noone thought of that option before…?!? :D

    Al, isn’t it wonderfull how the best solution is often the easiest one?

  29. How about some one to stop raping your sister in your garage before you concentrate on prosperity showing up on time for work.

    How about someone let you out of your own Attic so you can finally stop lobing rockets at your occupied house.

    To roll over and take it up the ass and live like belittled humiliated subjects in an open air prison while your masters eat your food and sleep in your bed doesn’t sound like a good plan for you!

  30. “To roll over and take it up the ass and live like belittled humiliated subjects in an open air prison while your masters eat your food and sleep in your bed doesn’t sound like a good plan for you!”

    It doesn’t sound like reality to me…

  31. No Israel will have a problem with all those countries!

    You also fail to see that just as Jews have filled the world and scattered about pretty well. Israel has done the same to the Palestinians. Do you know how many Palestinians there are in South America? Over a million there alone and that isnt even an Islamic continent!

    3 million in Jordan, a million in Lebanon and these countries have all become pro Palestinian now, just like the West that is overwhelmingly populated with early Jewish migrants is pro Israeli!

    If we keep the resistance up for another century — just as the father of the dead child — Abu Sa’ar mentioned before, then we should absolutely have the upper hand once we change or tactics a little.

    World statistics show that Islam will be the dominant religion on Earth by 2050, imagine by 3010 what it will look like! You will be the minority underdog of world opinion by then.

    A lot of things can change it that amount of time!

  32. @ “Jerusalem is never mentioned in the Koran.”

    It does to them, go to Palestine and see for yourself!

  33. Never mind that last comment,

    what I meant to say was: @ your comment!

    I”t doesn’t sound like reality to me…”

    It does to the Pali’s, go and see for yoourself!

    You havent experienced hospitality until you experience Arab hospitality!

  34. Go and check it out for yourself man!

  35. “If we keep the resistance up for another century”

    Have you any idea how insane that comment is?

    “It does to the Pali’s”

    Well, the author of the article in question has already established that the palistinians have hypnotized themselves into believing propaganda that is obviously not true. Them believing it doesn’t make it right.

  36. “You havent experienced hospitality until you experience Arab hospitality!”

    I tried it in Saudi… Kids throwing stones at me in my own street, my mom having to hide under a blanket in the back seat at a camel race, a customs officer confiscating my cross-shaped silver heirloom necklace. Arab hospitality indeed…

  37. That explains your vocal interest in hate filled speach towards Arabs!

    Saudi Arabia huh? Sounds like Riyad to me.

    I am sorry about your experience there but humbleness and hospitality usually go hand in hand in Arab culture but sometimes Gulfies are an exception.

    I knew you went to American or British schools abroad because yoor English isnt bad for a Dane.

    Do you see where you and 1, 500, 000, 000 of the worlds populace disagree here?

    “To roll over and take it up the ass and live like belittled humiliated subjects in an open air prison while your masters eat your food and sleep in your bed doesn’t sound like a good plan for ANYONE!”

    I take it that your experience

  38. I take it that your experience has for ever changed you as a human being and now you are a tad beyond being objective!

    think if you were a Pali and had a relative killed, how biased you would be in human terms and how absurd it would sound to succumb to the brutal slaughter?

    Let me guess your dad worked for Boeing or a Danish dairy corp over there in Saudi, the money is really good, you gotta admit that!

  39. http://gnblog.com/?p=367

    This guy sums it up pretty good… I don’t agree with every single word or conviction, but all in all I think he sums up what is needed for peace quite well!

    Sand Ape: I’m aware that a few bad experiences doesn’t describe a people. I broguht it up as a counterweight to endless arab patting-themselves-on-the-back. I will point out, however, that the gulfies as you call them are the original arabs, and the people behind the idea of arab hospitality.

    “I take it that your experience”

    Nope, but neither is denying another people the right to exist, insisting on a twisted version of history, and teaching my children to hate…

    P.S. Luckily, I didn’t live in Riyadh! ;)

  40. “think if you were a Pali”

    Think if you were an israeli, and all your neighbours wanted to see you dead, lobbing rockets at you every now and then…

    Dad was a doctor – remember the jew-doctor anecdote from an earlier topic? The money were good in the beginning, but couldn’t compete from 1987 onwards…

  41. “I take it that your experience has for ever changed you as a human being and now you are a tad beyond being objective!”

    This quote is actually quite funny…

    Oftentimes, one is accused of not being able to voice a reasonable opinion due to one’s lack of knowledge and experience on a certain area. When people find out that you actually have knowledge and experinece on the area in question, but it differs from their own agenda, you’re suddenly subjective, and beyond the capability of assesing a situation objectively.

    It’s a lose-lose situation, it seems!!! :D

  42. Adam – “The israelis have a hen to pick with the palestinians”

    Actually, we don’t care about the Palestinians in particular or Arabs in general either way. We don’t love them or hate them – we just want them to leave us alone. Once they do that, we just ignore them: no offense to Egypt, but it is as important and interesting to your average Israeli as Papua New Guinea or Burkina Faso (only with really cool archeological sites and Sinai).

    Actually, I was just talking to a friend about this. He’s 3/4ths Egyptian Jew, and was considering going to see the house Arabs stole from his grandmother’s family in Cairo: they were a very rich family and it was a very nice house.

    But then he thought about it and decided it’s not worth the bother or the danger.

    Same attitude is towards Jordan, Syria and all the other Arab countries not busy physically attacking us. We just don’t care about them and want them to leave us alone.

  43. “we just want them to leave us alone. ”

    …which they don’t, hence my comment. ;)

    But you’re right, of course!

  44. Andrew Brehm says:

    “I tried it in Saudi… Kids throwing stones at me in my own street, my mom having to hide under a blanket in the back seat at a camel race, a customs officer confiscating my cross-shaped silver heirloom necklace. Arab hospitality indeed…”

    My experiences with Arab hospitality were similar. When I first arrived in Israel, the Arabs fired rockets at my university (Haifa).

    Some hospitality.

  45. The article is a step a decent direction…but did anybody notice it still notes, essentially, NO Arab/Palestinian responsibility for the problem…like ZERO. And terror is not or never has been an issue, eh?

    Overall…yes…lipstick on a pig…and this dance of dispportional response…I mean…are these guys retarded or just grasping at any straw they can…a

    Let me re-write the article…

    1. We have done nothing wrong

    2. We have done nothing to prolong the problem

    3. The Jews are 100% at fault

    4. Give us a country and life will be paradise

    Lawd help here please

  46. Adam,

    Nobody is denying a people there right to exist. Just don’t exist on somebody else’s land, it’s simple!

    Get the Israeli’s off of the Arabs 67 borders and then the Arabs might leave you alone.

    I MAINTAIN: “To roll over and take it up the ass and live like belittled humiliated subjects in an open air prison while your masters eat your food and sleep in your bed doesn’t sound like a good plan for ANYONE!”

  47. Through common human effort injustice can be overcome just like was the case in South Africa amd Obama becoming elected. Next stop Israel, that seems to be the logical next stop. I don’t think Israel wants to play word oppressor for 2 centuries to come.

  48. The Palestinians are going to have to do a lot to overcome their bad image. The current image is that of a people who blame all their problems on others, do nothing to improve their situation, steal billions of donated aid money, attack the interests of those donors and kidnap their reporters when a Danish cartoonist insults their holy man, publically celebrate 9-11, destroy the greenhouses left for their economic benefit, turn their young into human bombs, continually provoke their neighbor etc etc etc …

    They have a long road to travel …

  49. Well that’s what raping the palestinians daughters and killing their mothers while stealing their land will do to them!

    Equals melt down

  50. Sandape

    Excusing Palestinian misbehaviour does not help them, to the contrary.

    The Tibetans live under a far worse occupation, yet the world looks upon them much more kindly. Unlike the Palestinians, they do not engage in self destructive acts that cause revulsion rather than sympathy.

    Here’s a helpful link about the atrocities in Tibet. The Israelis are banal by comparison.

    http://www.friendsoftibet.org/main/concerns.html

  51. it should shame Israel for inflicting violence upon a population, resulting in the shameful ratio of 100:1 (killing 100 Palestinians for every 1 Israeli killed).

    Why is this question not asked when Israelis exchange their people at 1/300 ratio? And even corps?

    Looks like authors still do not get it.

    Is it so unusual for the culture of death not to care how many of their kind will die?
    Is it so unsualua for the culture of life to care how many of their kind will die?

  52. I DONT FUCKING BELIEVE THE AUDACITY OF PRO ISRAELI’S, WHERE IN THE HELL DO YOU GET OFF FORGETTING THAT YOU ARE THE INVADERS AND COMMON SENSE AND NON VIOLENCE DOESN’T EXIST AS AN OPTION.

    THATS LIKE TELLING A KIDNAPPED WOMAN SHE HAD BETTR NOT FIGHT OFF HER RAPE OR SHE WILL GET HER BONES BROKEN.

    PLEASES STOP PRETENDING TO BE CIVILZED.

    DON’T INSULT EVERYONES INTELLIGENCE!

  53. You fucking cant talk peace after you have invaded and pummeled the land.

    That’s retardly hilarious by anyones standards!

  54. “Get the Israeli’s off of the Arabs 67 borders and then the Arabs might leave you alone.”

    Fine words, but that’s just not how it looks… Hamas have made it quite clear that they aren’t gonna leave the israelis alone.

    A re-write that’ll actually make sense:

    Get the arabs to promise to leave the israelis alone, Israel will most likely withdraw behind the borders that the two parties can agree to.

    “I don’t think Israel wants to play word oppressor for 2 centuries to come.”

    Neither do I, but I’m confident they’ll not go as far as to commit collective suicide in order to avoid it.

  55. This has to be one of the most read blogs on the ME.
    Good for you SM for promoting discourse…

    I’ve been following the discussion with great attention on both last postings and AT THE SAME TIME disregarding the emotional outbursts of some of the writers. You’all stop insulting each other and make your points……… Word violence begets physical violence. This is a group intelligent enough to understand that the narrative is in the power of the narrator though facts can not be changed.

    I understand that Israelis are not angels, but I would like to try to be on the side of the angels , so I prefer to address people with civility. Also, war is HELL and no matter what the Geneva convention or other organization says cruelty against civilians will prevail during war times. The point that Israel didn’t blanket bomb Gaza should be taken into consideration when speaking about cruelty and angels by everybody.

    Now my point: Nothing will change until all ARAB COUNTRIES stop the constant INCITEMENT against non-Muslims in their media, mosques, etc. Personally, I am tired of being called “sons of pigs and monkeys”. (in my case daughters…)
    I want peace and I maybe dreaming of peace but, it seems obvious, the leaders do not want peace. The Arafats, Hanyiehs, ETC. HAVE ABUSED MUCH MORE MORE THE PALESTINIANS than any other nation in earth. Iran sent children to the battlefield with plastic keys to open the doors of paradise and blow up mines in the battlefield.
    As we glorify death, the destruction will continue and with it, the deliberate cruelty of both sides.

    But what we, the people, can do is try to influence indirectly our leaders by talking about COEXISTENCE instead of resistence and martyrdom. We know that violence doesn’t work, but “we don’t know how to stop it” and we know that mantaining low levels of violence is a policy of the small armaments industry.

    I know that I am dreaming of angels when I say unto you’all: Let’s change the discourse. In the SM as well as for the world.
    And let’s start talking about COEXISTENCE.
    Also, you’all should ignore the Sand Ape. Let him rant and rave and have his way with words……………………………We should try something different…………….Talk to the ones that want to talk to us…………………Those who spend their energy blaming the world for their misfortunes loose the ability to change and make things better…………………….

  56. “I DONT FUCKING BELIEVE THE AUDACITY OF PRO ISRAELI’S, WHERE IN THE HELL DO YOU GET OFF FORGETTING THAT YOU ARE THE INVADERS AND COMMON SENSE AND NON VIOLENCE DOESN’T EXIST AS AN OPTION.”

    Let’s rephrase that, shall we?

    “I don’t fucking believe the audacity of Hamas supporters. Where in the hell do you get off forgetting that you were the aggresor attacking a sovereign country with the intent of wiping out it’s citizens? It seems common sense and non-violence is just not witin your grasp…!”

  57. “You fucking cant talk peace after you have invaded and pummeled the land.”

    Sure you can… In fact, that’s EXACTLY when you can talk peace – when the opponent realizes that he can’t win.

  58. Asphalt Orangutan says:

    OK, so people’s criticisms of the Palestinians persistent use of extreme and random violence against civilians, and their awful leadership and embrace of toxic ideologies, and their various other forms of self-destructiveness, etc., etc. are all correct.

    And it is true that the Tibetans, at the hands of the Chinese, have suffered far more loss of life and worse cultural suppression than the Palestinians, yet have not resorted to these repulsive tactics, nor been seduced by the ideologies that justify them.

    And it is true that Sand Ape’s endless stream of vicious anti-Semitism is not only wrong and hateful but also stupid, in that it alienates Jews who might otherwise agree with him about Israel and many other issues. For example, Jews OPPOSED the Iraq War more than any other religious community in America, 77 percent to 21 percent according to the poll discussed here:
    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/rosnerBlog.jhtml?itemNo=830250&contrassID=25&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=1&listSrc=Y&art=1 (If the Jews are so evil and thirsty for Muslim blood, and so devoted to the interests of Israel, why did they oppose the Iraq War?)

    And it is true that the Arab countries expelled as many or more Jews during and after 1948 as there were Palestinian refugees, and took all of their property. And that there were hundreds of thousands of refugees all over the world in the postwar era, all of whom have since been absorbed by their host countries (or by Israel, in the case of the Jews), while only the Palestinians have been kept refugees by their Arab “brothers” in order to maintain an insoluble problem for Israel.

    HOWEVER, none of the above excuses Israel for its oppression of the Palestinians. This is what frustrates me as a Jew who wants Israel to be a truly Jewish country, by which I mean a country that adheres to the biblical command to “Love the stranger for you were strangers in Egypt.” There is no getting around the fact that the Palestinians were living on the land that is now Israel, mostly minding their own business, and the Zionists mostly kicked them out and destroyed their villages to create Israel. And for most of its existence — not all, but most — Israel, instead of showing some Jewish creativity and charity towards the Palestinians, has dealt with them only through force and violence and exploitation. I am not going to get into the details right now, but I think if the pro-Israel folks who post here want to find common ground with the pro-Palestinian folks, the first thing is to acknowledge what Israel has actually done. I do think a fair settlement is possible that allows self-determination, freedom and opportunity for *both* peoples in the land of Israel/Palestine. But the starting point for any conversation between the two sides has to be the truth. There seems to be a degree of denial/avoidance of this on the pro-Israel side. Here’s a great column by David Grossman:

    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1056955.html

  59. “the first thing is to acknowledge what Israel has actually done.”

    I’m pretty sure most on this board don’t consider israelis to be angels. We all know that things didn’t always happen as they should have back in the day.

    What most of the discussions/name-callings in here revolve around is the present state of the situation and how (or if!) peace is to be accomplished.

    “But the starting point for any conversation between the two sides has to be the truth.”

    I don’t neccesarily agree to this, although truth (if such a subjective concept can be defined) would be nice. What’s neccesary is a sense of reality, a realization of how things stand right now, and an understanding of what motivates the other side… That, and a desire for peace. The last item seems to be lacking, at least from one side in the conflict.

  60. Andrew Brehm says:

    “There is no getting around the fact”

    I saw an old newspaper in Haifa that quoted the (Jewish) mayor of Haifa and the previous (Muslim) mayor of Haifa begging Arabs to stay and defend the newly independent country. But they left, expecting the Jews (and those Arabs who did stay) to die.

    The fact that local Arabs attacked Jews for decades before the founding of Israel and joined in Arab attacks in 1948 is good reason not to allow them to return. And I refuse to act as if it was Israel’s fault that Arab countries called on local Arabs to leave the country and join the war and that so many did.

    I don’t think the pro-Israel side denies what was done to the “Palestinians”, but I do believe that an “oppression” that was necessary due to violence is completely excusable. (What was the alternative? Slaughter the lot? Let them murder Jews?)

    You are acting as if Israel had anything to win through “oppressing” another people. It didn’t. The occupation cost Israel a lot of money. The only gain Israel had from the “oppression” was more security. And if the same security could be obtained without the “oppression”, the “oppression” wouldn’t have happened.

    I think the first step towards a fair settlement would be acknowledgment of the Jewish refugees (which you mention) and acknowledgment that that the Zionists did not simply decide to burn down Arab villages and replace them with Jewish settlements. It’s simply not true.

  61. Asphalt Orangutan says:

    Andrew Brehm:

    With all respect, most of what you wrote is myths peddled by AIPAC. Are you familiar with the work of the Israeli “revisionist” historians (e.g., Benny Morris, Tom Segev)? They’ve shown, using Israeli records among other sources, that while some Palestinians chose to flee the war zone, far more of them were ethnically cleansed by the Israelis. By the way, fleeing a war zone is a perfectly normal thing for people to do, and happens in all wars — it’s not a serious argument under international law (or any other body of law) to say that people who fled a war zone forfeited their right to their homes.

    “local Arabs attacked Jews for decades” — If you mean that there were some attacks, this is surely true (the 1929 massacre and expulsion of Jews from Hebron for example). However, there was not a sustained, mass campaign of violence by Palestinian Arabs against Jews over decades before 1948, as you suggest. More like sporadic flareups. Nothing that would justify the mass expulsion of the Palestinians, as you imply.

    “acknowledgment that that the Zionists did not simply decide to burn down Arab villages and replace them with Jewish settlements. It’s simply not true.”

    I am afraid it is true. There is a literally an entire map of Arab villages throughout Israel that no longer exist, that have literally been plowed under, their names erased from memory. I’ve even read about it in that noted Arab propaganda organ, Ha’aretz. You have to face this. You can accept this reality and still support the existence of Israel — I do, strongly — but your views about what would constitute a fair settlement of this dispute will be different from what they are now.

  62. “By the way, fleeing a war zone is a perfectly normal thing for people to do, and happens in all wars”

    Except in this case you are talking about aggressors leaving area in preparation for aggression.

    As far as I am conserned your credibility just has taken serious hit.

  63. Abu Sa'ar says:

    Asphalt Orangutan –

    I would suggest reading Benny Morris (post 2000) on the subject of Israel’s actions, morality and so on; his earlier work is useful only as a biased (anti-Israeli) historic analysis.

    His point is simple: the Palestinians are directly interested in a genocide. They began with terror against Jews more than a century ago and never stopped since. Give them the tiniest chance of killing Jews and destroying Israel… and they’ll jump on it even if it kills them.

    There is nothing to talk about with a person whose chief interest is the genocide of your people and the destruction of your state. It’s a realization that takes some getting used to. Took Mr. Morris a few decades. There are not enough Arabs in the US of A to make American Jews understand this simple fact. I hope there’ll never be.

    But imagine trying to talk to an SS officer, or a KKK member, or an Inquisitor. With the only thing standing between you and them being your might. There is no difference in attitude between them and, say, the same Samir Kuntar. And the only difference between Samir Kuntar and Sand Ape is that the latter is too cowardly to do the killing himself.

    You know, one of the measures of the brutality of an occupation is the rate of rapes by soldiers. There is actually significantly LESS rape by IDF soldiers than the civilian average. That is to say, if you were a Palestinian woman and afraid of being raped, you would be significantly safer in the company of IDF soldiers than of Palestinians of any occupation (pardon the pun).

    Just an interesting statistic. I recalled it because a postgrad student submitted a paper on this in Be’er Sheva Uni. Her chief claim was that lack of rape by IDF soldiers points at dehumanization of Palestinians by the IDF.

    Mr. Grossman’s emotional (but otherwise empty) piece kind of reminded me of that.

    The truly sad thing about Grossman is that he really means well. He’s just living in a movie.

  64. Asphalt Orangutan says:

    Leo, what made the fleeing Palestinians “aggressors”? What actions did they take that made them aggressors?

    By the way, I meant to mention above that the claim that there were broadcasts from the invading Arab states encouraging the Palestinians to leave is a complete myth. There is no evidence that this happened, nor that the Palestinians’ own leaders encouraged them to leave.

  65. Abu Sa'ar says:

    “There is no evidence that this happened, nor that the Palestinians’ own leaders encouraged them to leave.”

    Why, this is simply untrue. There is ample evidence, in Arabic, Hebrew and English (left, respectively, by Arabs, Jews and Brits).

    Google it up :)

  66. Abu Sa'ar says:

    Moreover, I know people (family) who heard the broadcasts with their own ears. It’s not that difficult to verify, you know :)

  67. Asphalt Orangutan says:

    Abu Sa’ar:

    Both Benny Morris, in an article summarized here,
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_and_after;_Israel_and_the_Palestinians#The_Causes_and_Character_of_the_Arab_Exodus_from_Palestine:_The_Israel_Defence_Forces__Intelligence_Service_Analysis_of_June_1948

    and Christopher Hitchens, in an article summarized here,
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blaming_the_Victims#Broadcasts_Christopher_Hitchens

    show, based on the primary sources, that there is no evidence whatsoever of these broadcasts.

    Please point me to the evidence that you say exists.

  68. Go Tibetans! You have so much success…

  69. Andrew Brehm says:

    “I am afraid it is true. There is a literally an entire map of Arab villages throughout Israel that no longer exist, that have literally been plowed under, their names erased from memory.”

    Did you even read what I wrote?

    I said that the Zionists didn’t have the motives you ascribe to them and that the Arabs’ reason for leaving was not what you said it was.

    I didn’t say that I doubted the former existence of those Arab villages.

    I own an empty flat in Germany that I left five years ago. Using your method you could easily reason that I left because of what my neighbours did to me and that my neighbours plan was always to get rid of me. But that would have little to do with the truth.

  70. Israel is not a sovereign “C – O -U – N T – R -Y”

    That is why it is recognized by only 50 countries Adam.

    Nice try!

    Now call me an anti Semite and i will call you an anti Arab racist…..and on and on and on it will go!

  71. Asphalt Orangutan says:

    Andrew Brehm: You’re now parsing my words to avoid their clear meaning. You agree that the villages were there, are now gone, their names effaced from the map. But you claim that I did not address what you said about how this came to be. In fact, I did. I said above, citing the Israeli revisionist historians, that the Palestinians are gone because the Israelis ethnically cleansed them (or did not allow them to return after they’d fled). Then the Israelis either occupied their houses themselves (I’ve been in such houses as guests of the Israelis who live there now), or destroyed them (the latter in upwards of 70 percent of cases).

  72. Andrew Brehm says:

    “That is why it is recognized by only 50 countries Adam.”

    I think you have Israel confused with “Palestine”.

  73. Roman Kalik says:

    #59 Asphalt Urangutan

    With all respect, most of what you wrote is myths peddled by AIPAC. Are you familiar with the work of the Israeli “revisionist” historians (e.g., Benny Morris, Tom Segev)?

    Quite interesting. So Morris went against an article written by The Economist about the refugees leaving Palestine (written during the events), a recorded broadcast about the events by the Near East Broadcasting Station in Cyprus, memoirs of British diplomats who had been on site…

    Benny Morris himself, in The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited, wrote about how the Arab Higher Committee ordered the evacuation of dozens of villages as the Arab armies advanced. Have you actually read it? Morris, even as he believed that these orders did not account for a large percentage of the Palestinian Arab population’s fleeing, asserts that they occurred.

    If you mean that there were some attacks, this is surely true (the 1929 massacre and expulsion of Jews from Hebron for example). However, there was not a sustained, mass campaign of violence by Palestinian Arabs against Jews over decades before 1948, as you suggest. More like sporadic flareups.

    You focus on the major events while ignoring the smaller ones that occurred on a near daily basis – not every attack was a massacre, most were along the lines of small shootings, firebombings, stabbing incidents… with the British police forces turning a blind eye to the events.

    Much of it was reported in The Palestine Times, written down in memoirs… it simply wasn’t major events, so they didn’t see much mention internationally.

  74. Asphalt Orangutan nicely said, I don’t know where you came from but I agree with 95% of what you said. It is refreshing to hear someone tell these professional liars, these morsels of false Jewery that they are wrong and under the AIPAC myth.

    I owe you one and for that I will acknowledge my fuse socket refused to accept anymore fuses if I were to stay on this blog, because they are too easily blown amidst the consistent liars.

    Such as Andrew saying:

    I don’t think the pro-Israel side denies what was done to the “Palestinians”

    I assure you he himself has denied it!

    You are wrong however about the the Jewish community being against the Iraq invasion. At least Israel openly thanked the US for removing Saddam so you can’t say that most Jews were against the invasion.

    Other than that I respect you immensely for your unique perspective just as I did all the other posters here until they started openly lying and insulting me and calling me, an anti Semite ‘it’ Samir kuntar wanna be and lost their objectivity.

  75. Roman Kalik says:

    That is why it is recognized by only 50 countries Adam.

    A bit more like 162, which is the majority of countries across the world. But hey, when did facts ever bother you?

  76. “It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets.” Voltaire

    “Every man is guilty of all the good he didn’t do”
    Voltaire

  77. ” I don’t know where you came from but I agree with 95% of what you said.”

    Actually, you DISagree with about 95 % of what he says, or else you’ve been lying through your teeth for the last 200 or so posts…

  78. Get off your high horse Adam and quit being such an instigator and I dare you as man to Please quote from my 200 or so posts, copy/paste please, where I disagree with what he is saying? keeping in mind the somber intellectual tone he is using, as part of what and how he is saying it!

  79. Asphalt Orangutan:

    Leo, what made the fleeing Palestinians “aggressors”? What actions did they take that made them aggressors?

    First, term ‘Palestinians’ never existed in respect to Arabs before Arafat decided to adupt/usurp it in late 60s hoping it would help his cause.
    At most I can settle you calling both Arabs and Jews as Palestinians.
    But I am willing to bet neither party like this term much.

    Second, if you will change ‘Palestinians’ to ‘Arabs’ in what I quoted from you (see above) you should realize that my initial statement is valid.

    “There is no evidence that this (there were broadcasts from the invading Arab states encouraging the Palestinians to leave) happened, nor that the Palestinians’ own leaders encouraged them to leave.”

    I do not believe this deserves reply any more than stipulation that 2+2==5.

  80. Fare;

    About as successful as the Palestininans, eh? Only they get respect, not disgust.

  81. Asphalt Orangutan says:

    Leo, that is pure sophistry. First, you redefine the Palestinian civilians as “Arabs” and then that makes them the “same” as the Arabs who attacked, ergo, they were aggressors. But of course, they were civilians, same as the Israelis in the southern towns, who remain civilians, with the right not to be rocketed by those who object to the actions of their government. Moreover, the idea that the Palestinian civilians of 1948 had any relationship with, or control over, or responsibility for the actions of Arab governments is absurd. They were simply civilians who fled a war zone. That does not make them aggressors.

    As for the supposed Arab radio broadcasts, there are two articles on this, one by Benny Morris, one by Christopher Hitchens, that establish from the primary sources that there is no evidence of any such broadcasts. I tried to post cites before to summaries of those articles but unfortunately, Sandmonkey’s spam-blocker blocked my post. Hopefully it will show up later. If not, I’ll repost those links.

    Look, we’ve got to stop living in a fantasy world about what happened in 1948. The Israelis won the war and they expelled or refused re-entry to about 300-400,000 Palestinian civilians. That’s just a fact, let’s not deny it. There were also many Palestinians who were not expelled, and they and their descendants are now the Arab citizens of Israel. This suggests that there was not an overall policy of expulsion, and if not, I am glad. But that does not change the fact that many Israeli units were expelling people, and it does not change the effect on the many Palestinians who were expelled or fled and were not allowed to return. Those were illegal acts, and those people and their descendants are now in refugee camps. Now, as of 2008, the vast majority of Israel’s current population was born in Israel, and the vast majority of the Palestinian population was not born there. Therefore, it would not be just to demand that the Israelis leave. Like most peoples on earth, the Israelis are (now) the descendants of conquerors instead of conquerors themselves. And most peoples on earth are deemed entitled to live in the place where they now reside.

    BUT, these events did happen in living memory, and the Palestinians still suffer the consequences. They are entitled to compensation, to family reunification, to an end to their statelessness, and to equality, dignity, physical security, and opportunity, just as the Israelis want (and deserve) for themselves. Do people here really believe that the Palestinians deserve to suffer? That is not consistent with the Judaism that I was raised in.

  82. Orangutan,

    See what I mean, mostly right wing Zionists here and you know what that means huh?

  83. In fact, even for the UNRWA itself, the term “Palestine refugee” is a broad definition:
    [I]“(…) persons whose normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, who lost both their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict.” [/I]
    see http://www.un.org/unrwa/refugees/whois.html

    Acc. to this term, it doesn’t matter where you lived before 1946 and that’s the crux, many had come from other Arab countries during the first half of the 20th C, attracked by the improving economic situation. I’m sure some digging will reveal the number of Jews and Arabs living in the area of the British Mandate during various times of that period and where they had originated from (if indeed they had come from outside that area).

    Thanks Adam B. for the link to the Good Neighbours blog!

  84. Roman Kalik says:

    #71 Sand Ape:

    Common sense is not so common.

    Prejudices are what fools use for reason.

    -Voltaire

  85. Andrew Brehm says:

    Israel withdrew from Gaza and showed to the world that the “Palestinians”, far from using the opportunity to found an independent country, destroyed Israeli-built infrastructure and green houses, fought among each other, killed hundreds of their own, and fired rockets at Israel for three years.

    Now it is time for the “Palestinians” to show to the world the truth about Israel. Capture the Hamas terrorists, hand them over to Israel or Egypt, stop firing at Israel, stop the propaganda, invite Jews to visit Gaza and don’t kill them if they do, and ask Israel to open the borders and demand peace.

    Show to the world what Israel will do if given what Israel asks.

    Israel has shown to the world what “Palestinians” will do if given what they ask.

  86. the audacity of soap——-bubble bubble

  87. As a marketing guy, some of the expressions we use are rebrand, reformulate and relaunch.

    Rebrand is, essentially, about deciding to present yourself to the world in a particular new way that will make people like you better. Relaunch is the process of convincing people that you now have this new identity.

    You’d be crazy to try either one without considering the need to reformulate: to have a different product. Nobody’s going to believe you unless you have some aspect of “new and improved” you can point to and deliver.

    Put another way: if these m**f**as stopped shooting their f**ing missiles, us observers would think of them differently. As long as they keep firing the f**ing things, nothing else they say or do is going to make a blind bit of difference.

  88. “World statistics show that Islam will be the dominant religion on Earth by 2050, imagine by 3010 what it will look like! You will be the minority underdog of world opinion by then.”

    I imagine Palestinians can then drop the charade about wanting “peace.” They’ll merely say what they’ve been thinking all along — “Peace… because all the Jews are dead.”

  89. “The brand cannot be “Wipe Israel off the Map”: This sounds aggressive and, frankly, is not credible. Given that Israel actually has nuclear weapons, they can more credibly talk about wiping an Arab country off the map.”

    Umm, yeah. But here’s the difference: they don’t.

    Try, “This sounds aggressive and, frankly, repugnant.”

  90. Instead of rebranding their jihad, perhaps the Palestinian Arabs might consider acknowledging that Jews in Palestine are not interlopers (sorry, Sand Ape) but people with roots in the land that go back millennia, and go about building their own country.

    And here’s something to think about. If you want a thriving, prosperous civil society, driving out all of the resident Jews is NOT a good place to begin. Look at how well Egypt, Syria, and Iraq have done since they became Judenrein.

  91. Andrew @79
    Absolutely right about this. The Palestinians have shown the world that when given an opportunity to work toward peace and prosperity, they behave destructively— Some of them— Hamas and other extremists in Gaza, are ruining Gaza for the decent people who live there and who are trapped in that situation. I keep hoping that Fatah members will see things differently and become more moderate, become willing to work toward a resolution, and act in good faith for the sake of the people that call that area home. Peace would be a blessing for everyone.

  92. Thank you RK for your Voltaire quote:

    “Common sense is not so common.

    Prejudices are what fools use for reason.”

    -Voltaire-

    Did you just Google Voltaire, or are you a genuine fan?

    I was shocked to hear you quote Voltaire since you openly deny the very important fact, that both Israel and Palestine are unstable and irrational and lack the ability to make the necessary concessions for any viable peace! Blatantly putting the onus entirely on the Palestinians which is just wrong!

    That is usually the case, coming from the side that is in a position of strength, but in Israel’s case, due to their extremely bold ambitions, I guess it can not be avoided.

  93. “Blatantly putting the onus entirely on the Palestinians which is just wrong!”

    The problem is, the israelis want the palestinians to stop their attacks; the palestinians want the israelis to stop breathing. Which demand is the more reasonable?

    By the way, what happened to all of Asphalt Orangutans posts? I was gonna answer Sand Ape’s no-brainer question at 73, but now there is no post to quote…

  94. Somebody must have nuked it… I don’t think there’s a way for anyone to remove their own comments, here.

  95. Eva, Canada says:

    I appreciate the irony of a passionate Palestinian quoting Voltaire, the father of cold reasoning.

  96. Pffffft @ Adams attempt at salvaging his dignity:

    “By the way, what happened to all of Asphalt Orangutans posts? I was gonna answer Sand Ape’s no-brainer question at 73, but now there is no post to quote…”

    His initial posts are still there, new posts wouldny count as I said i agreed with everything he SAID. Stop the counterfit posts Adam.

    I am starting to feel debating with you is becoming more and more like debating a feminist cross dresser. You are becomin excessively whinny and snarky for anyones good tast!

    I don’t know what looks funnier, half naked girls running around near the holliest of sites on earth to all 3 major religions.

    Or the debating of a Dane like your self on a conflict that is so bitter and couldn’t possibly even involve him in the first place.

  97. Eva, I said that first about appreciating the irony of a Zionist quoting Voltaire.

    Nice try though! :)

  98. Craig are you breathing OK, I thought you suggested that the Twosret clan has admin privileges here and can delete whatever we want, lol. In fact making you the trolls,

    Mwa ha hha ha hha ha

  99. Sand Ape:

    “His initial posts are still there,”

    Right, monkey brain… I’ve been through the entire thread, and have found no a single post by AO – please direct mne to it, since you’ve obviously found it…

    “and couldn’t possibly even involve him in the first place.”

    But arabs insist on bringing everyone to the party, no matter how far away and unrelated to their conflict people are. If you would stop blaming EVERYONE for your misery, you might stand a better chance of getting some sympathy.

    In any case, it’s seems you haven’t noticed that the world has gotten smaller lately – there’s no conflict on earth that doesn’t have implications across the globe.

  100. to Sand Ape,
    the only invaders there are the so called “palestinians” who invaded the traditional land of Israel and all they do is going on marauding rampage to kill Jewish citizens of Israel. they should go back to tunisia or ather countries they spwan from.

    they got billions on billions of dollars from US, EU and Arabic countries, but instead of building an actual “paradise” in their authority they buy weapons and explosives and train terrorists to kill Jews.

    to Sandmonkey:

    [quote]
    The brand should be about Palestine and the dream of a people of life in a free homeland. [/quote]

    Tha HAMAS and the PHATAH actually oppress their “citizens” their “palestinian brothers” hundred times worse than Israel ever did.

    free homeland?
    ROFLCOPTER!

  101. I thought you suggested that the Twosret…

    Wasn’t “suggesting” it. Twosret does (or did) have admin rights here. She is a good friend of Sandmonkey’s, as I’m sure you know. Whoever you are.

  102. “…that the Twosret clan has admin privileges here and can delete whatever we want, lol. In fact making you the trolls,”

    Lol! You seem to have no grasp as to what a troll actually is… :D

  103. Hello…

    Apeman…?

    Please show me where I can find Asphalt Orangutans posts…

    His initial post will do – after all, you said that one was still there.

  104. Adam,

    Quite being such a condescending twirp.

    Assuming that I am miserable or even want more support for a cuase that already hase the support of one quarter of the worlds population.

  105. Onetimer,

    If you believe that then you are worse off than hamas and Hagana.

    open air prisons usually cost loads more than a few trillion dollars!

  106. Asphalt Orangutan says:

    Hi Everybody:

    I don’t know why my posts are all gone. I think it has something to do with SM’s spam filter and the fact that I used an AOL email address. I actually submitted several more posts that never appeared. Anyway, SM says he is working on it and hopefully my posts will re-appear once that’s taken care of. It’s frustrating not to be able to participate!

    I posted this with a different, gmail address, so maybe I should just use this address from now on.

    By the way, here’s my radical theory that should really stir things up. I said I think there should be peace based on an arrangement to share the land that gives both sides security, opportunity, dignity and self-determination. I also think it would be a great idea to start a campaign for peace based on the idea that the Jews and the Palestinian Arabs are really one people. I am aware of the cultural and religious differences of course, but DNA studies have shown that Jews (including Ashkenazim) and Palestinians are closely genetically related. In fact, most European Jews have more common DNA with Palestinians than with Europeans, if I recall correctly… pretty amazing. The Palestinians often make the argument that they are descended from all the peoples who have lived in that land. The DNA studies show that includes lots of Jews — one of history’s little ironies. (I also find myself noticing how many Palestinians I see in the news “look Jewish.”) What would happen if there was a mass movement based on the idea that “we are one” people? Probably a long way from possible, but I think it’s a cool idea.

    (Is everyone on this blog going to go nuts now?)

  107. “Quite being such a condescending twirp.”

    Well, you’re giving me ample cause to be so…! Besides, if this:

    “Pffffft @ Adams attempt at salvaging his dignity:”

    ..isn’t condescending, I don’t know what is.

    No, you go right ahead and find the initial post that YOU INSISTED was still here…

  108. Eva, Canada says:

    Sand Ape, the irony is that Voltaire’s way of thinking is the complete opposite of yours. There is not one ounce of pragmatism in you but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t try – at least once – to put passion on the back burner and actually adopt some of his thoughts.

  109. This just in,

    Taking the combination of Lisa Goldmans influence on SM and the Gaza assaults as evidence for the recent less pro Israeli stance that SM has displayed. I heard from a good friend that apparently Lisa wanted to keep their relationship Platonic, hence SM return to a brisk right wing pro Zionist neo con stance (effectively returning to his roots)

    Has therefore deleted Orangutans comments (which were a voice of reason and hence anti Israeli to an extent) after his AIPAC liaison kindly pointed out that in this recession, donations from the organization would be harder to come by.

    I am not shitting you!

    As Craig asked, “whom ever you are?”

    That question should rightfully directed to SM!

  110. Sand Ape… You’re so full of it it’s incredible that you don’t burst at the seams! :D

    In any case, you (very disrespectfully) insisted that the posts were still there AFTER I had pointed out that they were gone… liar.

  111. * be directed to SM!

  112. It takes two to Tango!

  113. Andrew Brehm says:

    “I said I think there should be peace based on an arrangement to share the land that gives both sides security, opportunity, dignity and self-determination.”

    Yeah, that didn’t work when the Zionists originally proposed it because the Arabs attacked the Jews and allied with Hitler (to summarise events; both points are true).

    I think it is time somebody came up with a solution that actually takes into account why there is a war.

  114. “It takes two to Tango!”

    Yeah, but only one to rock the boat… :D

  115. “Yeah, that didn’t work when the Zionists originally proposed it because the Arabs attacked the Jews and allied with Hitler (to summarise events; both points are true).”

    Maybe, but that’s no reason to discard the idea. It’s “just” a matter of getting the palestinian arabs to acknowledge that this is the only viable permanent solution to peace.

  116. Asphalt Orangutan says:

    This Hebrew Univ. study: Almut Nebel, Ariella Oppenheim, Dvora Filon, Mark G. Thomas, D. A. Weiss, M. Weale, Marina Faerman. “High-resolution Y chromosome haplotypes of Israeli and Palestinian Arabs reveal geographic substructure and substantial overlap with haplotypes of Jews.” Human Genetics 107(6) (December 2000): 630-641

    was summarized this way in a publication called Science Now:

    “More than 70% of Jewish men and half of the Arab men whose DNA was studied inherited their Y chromosomes from the same paternal ancestors who lived in the region within the last few thousand years. The results match historical accounts that some Moslem Arabs are descended from Christians and Jews who lived in the southern Levant, a region that includes Israel and the Sinai… Intrigued by the genetic similarities between the two populations, geneticist Ariella Oppenheim of Hebrew University in Jerusalem, who collaborated on the earlier study, focused on Arab and Jewish men. Her team examined the Y chromosomes of 119 Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews and 143 Israeli and Palestinian Arabs. The Y chromosomes of many of the men had key segments of DNA that were so similar that they clustered into just three of many groups known as haplogroups. Other short segments of DNA called microsatellites were similar enough to reveal that the men must have had common ancestors within the past several thousand years.

  117. Asphalt Orangutan says:

    This study must mean that Andrew Brehm is an Arab and Sand Ape is a Jew!

  118. Asphalt Orangutan says:

    This Hebrew Univ. study:

    Almut Nebel, Ariella Oppenheim, Dvora Filon, Mark G. Thomas, D. A. Weiss, M. Weale, Marina Faerman. “High-resolution Y chromosome haplotypes of Israeli and Palestinian Arabs reveal geographic substructure and substantial overlap with haplotypes of Jews.” Human Genetics 107(6) (December 2000): 630-641

    was summarized as follows in Science Now:

    “More than 70% of Jewish men and half of the Arab men whose DNA was studied inherited their Y chromosomes from the same paternal ancestors who lived in the region within the last few thousand years. The results match historical accounts that some Moslem Arabs are descended from Christians and Jews who lived in the southern Levant, a region that includes Israel and the Sinai… Intrigued by the genetic similarities between the two populations, geneticist Ariella Oppenheim of Hebrew University in Jerusalem, who collaborated on the earlier study, focused on Arab and Jewish men. Her team examined the Y chromosomes of 119 Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews and 143 Israeli and Palestinian Arabs. The Y chromosomes of many of the men had key segments of DNA that were so similar that they clustered into just three of many groups known as haplogroups. Other short segments of DNA called microsatellites were similar enough to reveal that the men must have had common ancestors within the past several thousand years.”

    This must mean Andrew Brehm is an Arab and Sand Ape is a Jew!

  119. You mean it’s “just” a matter of getting the Jewish Israeli’s to understand that returning to behind 67 borders and forfeiting about 75 billion dollars worth of illegal settlement’s is the only viable solution for peace!

    ;)

  120. “It takes two to Tango!”

    Yeah, but only one to rock the boat…

    ———————————————————————————-

    WHAT BOAT IS THAT?

    AH THE OCCUPIED BOAT!

    YES, INDEED, TRUE!

  121. “You mean it’s “just” a matter of getting the Jewish Israeli’s to understand that returning to behind 67 borders and forfeiting about 75 billion dollars worth of illegal settlement’s is the only viable solution for peace!”

    Sounds a lot simpler than to get the palestinian arabs to stop demanding the death of every jew in the region and the destruction of Israel.

    “WHAT BOAT IS THAT?”

    The boat of truth… liar.

  122. Glad to see that you have still lost your bearing and can’t get it back yet?

    Even after the genocide that is israel, only a small portion want the eradication of israel. even if they did, it would be rightfully so and i think you know that..LIAR!

  123. Sounds a lot simpler than to get the Palestinian Arabs to stop demanding the death of every Jew in the region and the destruction of Israel.

    Well if its easier than why not take it then?

  124. “Even after the genocide that is israel, only a small portion want the eradication of israel. even if they did, it would be rightfully so and i think you know that..LIAR!”

    Liar? Makes no sense… again. :D Oh my, you ARE confused, arent’ you? By the way, you just disagreed heavily with Asphalt Orangutan right here… liar.

    “Well if its easier than why not take it then?”

    ‘Cause one is not possible without the other. Hasn’t that sunk in yet…?!?

  125. Andrew Brehm says:

    “This must mean Andrew Brehm is an Arab and Sand Ape is a Jew!”

    Could be. I sometimes look very Arab and am regularly selected for an hour-long security interview at Ben Gurion airport when I leave the country (for some reason). They ask questions like “what’s the name of the synagogue you go to” and “what was the last holiday you celebrated”.

  126. Hey, Asphalt Orangutans posts are back…! 8)

  127. Roman Kalik says:

    @86 Sand Ape:

    Did you just Google Voltaire, or are you a genuine fan?

    A fan? No, I wouldn’t call myself a *fan* of Voltaire, per se. I have read some of his works, many of his letters, and while I agree to some of his views, and find the goals he’d placed for his society (France in particular, Europe in general) to be good, and his form of reasoning admirable, I can’t honestly say that I find the man without noticeable flaws.

    Some is due to his historic and societal context – which is where his racism, naive view of the influences of the written word, and the certainty that Atheists, while no less fiery and fanatical than the clergy of his day, were harmless.

    Other issues, really, are due to his own pride, or rather Voltaire’s certainty that a good society should be run by people like Voltaire.

    Voltaire, by the way, never did approve of democracy. He thought it gave the power of a nation to the idiots of the lower classes. He was quite a big fan of enlightened despotism or monarchy, where regulatory positions would be given to philosophers such as himself.

    I was shocked to hear you quote Voltaire since you openly deny the very important fact, that both Israel and Palestine are unstable and irrational and lack the ability to make the necessary concessions for any viable peace! Blatantly putting the onus entirely on the Palestinians which is just wrong!

    Ah, yes… so you *didn’t* realize why I quoted those two specific quotes of Voltaire’s, did you? I want you to go and read all those posts of yours here on Sandmonkey’s – even those of the past three days would do.

    As Eve from Canada aptly states, it was ironic to see you quote Voltaire when you have, by and large, argued based on emotion, irrationality, and mainly – prejudice. You are the very definition of a person who comes to a debate already knowing all the answers – because your collection of prejudices and preconceived notions is iron-clad, and can’t be budged an inch in your mind.

    Tell me, do you even realize that you have, during all your posting here, placed 99% of your post in the “Israel is a country of thieves, murderers, occupiers, Hitler-wannabes, racists, outsiders…” and so on and so forth? Where most supporters of the US or Israel at least tried to argue from a factual standpoint, attempting to argue their point less through emotion and opinion and more through the actual events, you have basically been in a one-sided shouting match.

    Allow me to put it to you bluntly – there are few supporters of Israel that support Israel blindly, and say that it is fully without blame for the current situation. There are few supporters of Israel that don’t have any criticisms of Israel themselves.

    In fact, the best place to look for when you want criticisms of Israel is Israel itself.

    The opposite doesn’t quite work for supporters of Palestine. As you yourself argued time and time again, Palestinians are victims and armed resistance is just, and murdered Israelis is all due to the Israelis themselves. You are so busy bashing Israel and Israelis and talking about how the Palestinians are “just” in their actions, that your above statement is the very height of hypocrisy.

    Think about that.

    That is usually the case, coming from the side that is in a position of strength, but in Israel’s case, due to their extremely bold ambitions, I guess it can not be avoided.

    And here you go again… talking about Israeli this, ambitions that… let me guess, Israel aims to conquer the Middle-East? Or is that merely for the next century?

    @107 Adam B:

    Yeah, but only one to rock the boat… :D

    And the answer to that is simple. Don’t rush to get on the boat if you know that the other party will actively rock it should you do so.

  128. RK, don’t sweat it – I’ve got my life preserver on! :D

  129. Roman Kalik says:

    @106 Asphalt Orangutan:

    By the way, here’s my radical theory that should really stir things up. I said I think there should be peace based on an arrangement to share the land that gives both sides security, opportunity, dignity and self-determination. I also think it would be a great idea to start a campaign for peace based on the idea that the Jews and the Palestinian Arabs are really one people. I am aware of the cultural and religious differences of course, but DNA studies have shown that Jews (including Ashkenazim) and Palestinians are closely genetically related.

    Race is not a viable starting point for a shared national ideal. Unless, of course, you believe that Jews and Arabs should design a country based on the ideals of Nazi Germany?

    The idea is not new, by the way. It simply fails for the obvious reasons – bone structure and skin color aren’t a unifying concept for a stable society.

  130. Roman Kalik says:

    @128 Adam B:

    RK, don’t sweat it – I’ve got my life preserver on! :D

    Do life preservers normally have wires sticking out of them?

  131. you just disagreed heavily with Asphalt Orangutan right here………lol…..sure i did you LIAR!

    LIAR LIAR LIAR PANTS ON DANISH FIRE!

    I said “even if they did, it would be rightfully so”

    DOES THE word “IF” mean nothing to you LIAR LIAR PANTS ON FIRE!

    You are shaming your self Adam Mwa ha ha ha!

  132. Plus please respect the AIPAC rules here and do not mention Orangutans name, as he has clearly been banned for making your cases OBSOLOTE!

  133. I’ll be back later tonight to keep shutting your ass down, I look forward to it :)

  134. Sand Ape, please… work with me here – it’s so simple…!

    “…only a small portion want the eradication of israel. even if they did, it would be rightfully so”

    I repeat:

    “it would be rightfully so”

    That’s your opinion – Arab palestinians would be right in wanting the eradication of Israel. I very much doubt that Asphalt Orangutan feels the same way… This quote pretty much says so:

    “I do think a fair settlement is possible that allows self-determination, freedom and opportunity for *both* peoples in the land of Israel/Palestine.”

    I don’t see much support towards the wish to eradicate Israel there… ;)

    I’ll throw in an additional quote for good measure…

    “And it is true that Sand Ape’s endless stream of vicious anti-Semitism is not only wrong and hateful but also stupid,”

    In the end, I’ll leave it to Asphalt Orangutan to explain his own views… He certainly does so with a lot more civility and clarity than you! :D

  135. “Plus please respect the AIPAC rules here and do not mention Orangutans name, as he has clearly been banned for making your cases OBSOLOTE!”

    You obviously didn’t notice that he’s back. You really should stop jumping to conclusions… :D

  136. RK you have humbled me just a little bit but that is usually taken as a sign of weakness. Although what you said makes a lot of sense, stating that I can not be budged even 1%. But from the vantage point of a palestinian, he would say, “I can be swayed, but please try taking your penis out of my sisters ass first before saying that I am not open to negotiation and accusing me of being unrealistically upset and overcome with blind rage because you have taken my fertile olive groves and lock me in an open air prison just because my forefathers resisted you and lost.”

    Maybe that will help! Remember to admit to what I am saying brings a lot loss of credibility to the debating power of your peers here and can be construed as weakness. So do you really want to lose all, just to be in the right? I think not!

    Sorry to say this but maybe we should just get on with business as usual don’t you think?

    OK ready….

    Shame on you – you Nazi Zionist Murderer for oppressing the Pali’s and turning them into infant suicide bombers just because they are rage filled psychotic terrorists that want the death and destruction of all mankind and are evil!

  137. Adam I am working with you here, are you retarded? I said “if” before “would be rightfully so”

    It takes a man to admit when he is wrong.

    I the ‘it’ have already done so on numerous occasions before losing the desire to debate the likes of people who make the above uncalculated mistakes and refuse to have an ounce of humanity and admit when they are wrong, yet go on preaching “coming clean and forgiveness”

  138. I KNOW HE IS BACK!

    I wonder whose intel was responsible for bringing him back.

    Please let prejudice blind you and not give credit where credit is due!

    Or maybe I suppose you think it was just a coincidence?

  139. You are shaming your self Adam Mwa ha ha ha!

    I think Sand Ape is Jewish. Too much talk of “shame” for an Arab. Not enough talk of humiliation.

  140. So what if I am “Jewish” would that make a difference, I am still against calculated mass homicide. Now you can call me a excommunication Jew. :)

  141. Sand Ape, tsk tsk…

    “I said “if” before “would be rightfully so””

    Which implies that YOU feel it’s right.

    Your “if” refers to the palistinians.

    Are YOU retarded? Oh, never mind… You’ve answered that question many times… :D

    “I wonder whose intel was responsible for bringing him back”

    Mwahahaaa!!! Way to go, apeboy! You’re rocking the internet, manipulating with everyone! I’m surprised you haven’t manipulated the israelis into surrender already! :D Lol! Jeez, you crack me up!

  142. Adam,

    So which is it DAIRY BOY!

    Which implies that YOU feel it’s right.

    Your “if” refers to the palistinians.

  143. Roman Kalik says:

    @136 Sand Ape:

    RK you have humbled me just a little bit but that is usually taken as a sign of weakness.

    Only in a world ruled by pride and appearances. Which is where you live, apparently.

    Remember to admit to what I am saying brings a lot loss of credibility to the debating power of your peers here and can be construed as weakness. So do you really want to lose all, just to be in the right? I think not!

    And here we go again, you not even realizing that you are arguing from a preset list of preconceived notions and prejudices, peppering it with profanity here and there – here’s a hint, profanity *doesn’t* make an argument stronger. Quite the opposite.

    All you’ve done in your post is validate your hypocrisy regarding how people should hold “balanced views”.

    @138 Sand Ape:

    I KNOW HE IS BACK!

    I wonder whose intel was responsible for bringing him back.

    Please let prejudice blind you and not give credit where credit is due!

    Or maybe I suppose you think it was just a coincidence?

    Read Asphalt Orangutan’s post at comment number 106:

    I don’t know why my posts are all gone. I think it has something to do with SM’s spam filter and the fact that I used an AOL email address. I actually submitted several more posts that never appeared. Anyway, SM says he is working on it and hopefully my posts will re-appear once that’s taken care of. It’s frustrating not to be able to participate!

    You should stop listening to conspiracy theories and rubbish, Sand Ape – give it a try. Asphalt Orangutan’s posts just got eaten by Sandmonkey’s spam filter – and SM fixed it. That’s it. That’s all that happened.

  144. Sand Ape… Whoa, this is kindergarden all over!

    Your sentence refers to the palestinians – “even if they did” – and sticks your opinion on afterwards – “it would be rightfully so”.

    In other words, YOU think it’s right that genocide should be commited against the jews.

  145. “You should stop listening to conspiracy theories and rubbish, Sand Ape – give it a try. Asphalt Orangutan’s posts just got eaten by Sandmonkey’s spam filter – and SM fixed it. That’s it. That’s all that happened.”

    RK, stop telling him he didn’t do it! You’ll hurt his feelings, and probably send him on another rant… ;)

    By the way… Sand Ape, what is it? Guy or Gal?

  146. The posters here have already brought to your attention your extremely invalid over infatuation with me as being ridiculous. I see it however as flattering and sombering, yet a threat to the image of Europeans as you seem to be the only one here!

    never mind “Meltdowns” you are a glob of molten discontent!

    Please proceed, as the angrier you get, the happier it makes me, and the more mistakes you are likely to make and not be able to return to your usual blameless rambling!

    I predict you will otherwise end up chewing yourself up over my non stop calculated counter-racist remarks. I was raised in the toughest Arab hoods with Palestinians that were born comfortably numb. You really can’t keep up with me. You would probably end up having an aneurysm before I am half way thru with you!

  147. Dude you are so far gone i want to kiss you and relc you: @

    “You should stop listening to conspiracy theories and rubbish, Sand Ape – give it a try. Asphalt Orangutan’s posts just got eaten by Sandmonkey’s spam filter – and SM fixed it. That’s it. That’s all that happened.”

    Spam doesn’t remove alreadt posted comments!

  148. RK thanks for retracting the little respect i had for you by saying that i used profanity. because it did feel weird feeling that way towards an Israeli, since mashed kids are still being pulled out of the rubble 200 meters from the Egyptian border!

    “”And here we go again, you not even realizing that you are arguing from a preset list of preconceived notions and prejudices, peppering it with profanity here and there – here’s a hint, profanity *doesn’t* make an argument stronger. Quite the opposite.”"”

    I never peppered shit with profanity that time around!

    Why not address the:

    ““I can be swayed, but please try taking your penis out of my sisters ass first before saying that I am not open to negotiation and accusing me of being unrealistically upset and overcome with blind rage because you have taken my fertile olive groves and lock me in an open air prison just because my forefathers resisted you and lost.”

    Instead of making shit up!?

    I guess it is just genetically impossible for you guys to stop doing that and for us to ever get along!

  149. Sand Ape. 146:

    Ah, here we are… back to rants with no argument or reason. :)

    Funny, it’s the same story every time your bluff is called and you’re backed into a corner with nowhere to run. Learn to think before you speak and listen to others, and you won’t find yourself in situations like this.

  150. The reasononing is clear, you are just infatuated with me as usual!

  151. No reasoning whatsoever – I just demonstrated that you have the english skills of a kindergarden child, and you returned to your pointless ranting. :)

  152. It’s true though – I am quite infatuated with you. Your sorry rants provide hours and hours of fun! :D

  153. SURE YOU DID — sure you did — sure you did — SURE YOU DID

  154. AS FAR AS THE INFATUATION – THAT MUCH WE ALREADY KNOW

  155. You two should take this little love-fest to skype :P

  156. Umm my spouse Twosret might get mad at me craig!

  157. Craig, you’re right – it’s not fair to the rest of you… I’ll lay off Sand Ape now.

    Sand Ape, it was fun – hope you’ll keep up your rants and give me a good laugh now and again!

  158. Ya you had better back off play with your Lego little Dane Boy!

    And don’t worry!

    I will tire you into the ground again before kicking you ass time and time again and turning you into a tasty morsel of prime Danish Animal Ghee!

    That doesnt count as breaking yhe botcott!

  159. Roman Kalik says:

    @147 Sand Ape:

    Spam doesn’t remove alreadt posted comments!

    Yes it does, depending on how it is configured. It take a per-post approach, or it can take a more advanced method wherein an identified spammer (be it by email address, IP address, or poster name) are fully removed when identified, thus cleaning up spam that wasn’t caught before.

    Why don’t you ask a web programmer friend, if you have one, how spam filters for forums and blogs work?

    @148 Sand Ape:

    RK thanks for retracting the little respect i had for you by saying that i used profanity. because it did feel weird feeling that way towards an Israeli, since mashed kids are still being pulled out of the rubble 200 meters from the Egyptian border!

    Back to emotional responses, I see.

    I never peppered shit with profanity that time around! Why not address the

    Instead of making shit up!?

    I addressed precisely that quote. You want me to spell it out for you, point out just where the profanity was? Alright, if that’s what it takes to show you how you talk and behave.

    “I can be swayed, but please try taking your penis out of my sisters ass first before saying that I am not open to negotiation and accusing me of being unrealistically upset and overcome with blind rage because you have taken my fertile olive groves and lock me in an open air prison just because my forefathers resisted you and lost.”

    If and when you stop talking like some gangsta hood, you might realize that people are actually willing to give you more than the time of day.

  160. Craig,

    or my mommy twosret!

    whatever suits you!

  161. @ RK 159,

    You must admit that Orangutans comments were very intelligible and somewhat not fully pro Israeli, therefore not quite incendiary to the prevalent mood on this blog. His being a Jew didn’t make things any better. It’s a little bit beyond peculiar that his and only his comments would be spammed and nobody else’s. I appreciate your giving the benefit of the doubt to whom you feel deserves it. Did that make any sense, lol?

  162. By the way… Sand Ape, what is it? Guy or Gal?

    If it told you, would you believe it?

  163. Craig: Again, point taken…! :D

  164. It’s “it,” now live with it!

  165. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7837582.stm

    Mr Assad said: “We should show our clear support for the Palestinian resistance. I suggest this summit officially call the Zionist entity a terrorist entity.”

    I think “it” is Assad. Same mentality. Accuse your enemies of what you are guilty of. The old “No I’m not! You are!” from kindergarten :D

  166. Roman Kalik says:

    @161 Sand Ape:

    You must admit that Orangutans comments were very intelligible and somewhat not fully pro Israeli, therefore not quite incendiary to the prevalent mood on this blog.

    You obviously haven’t been around here that long, and still harbor these silly sentiments about Sandmonkey being an agent provocateur for some Evil Conspiracy.

    Stop and think for a moment, please. There have been, even during your presence, numerous posters who are “not fully pro Israeli”, to say the least, and whose posts stayed up.

    Your posts included.

    His being a Jew didn’t make things any better.

    Um… yeah, sure. If you still believe in Sandmonkey being some kind of global spy. Which is a conspiracy theory. Which, itself, is a way for you to stop taking his views and posts seriously by saying that he’s some kind of “western plant”.

    It’s a little bit beyond peculiar that his and only his comments would be spammed and nobody else’s.

    Again, you obviously haven’t been here for long. I had *my* comments marked as spam once, and at some point Sandmonkey’s spam filter ate pretty much every second or third comment.

    I appreciate your giving the benefit of the doubt to whom you feel deserves it.

    Thank you.

    Did that make any sense, lol?

    Almost.

  167. Does this make any sense to you, if it does, then I challenge you to take a stance and speak up for what’s humanly and ethically right.

    http://december18th.org/

  168. Roman Kalik says:

    @167 Sand Ape:

    Firstly, there is no need to post this link on every single new post made by Sandmonkey. If anything, it harms your attempt to get a response about it.

    Does this make any sense to you, if it does, then I challenge you to take a stance and speak up for what’s humanly and ethically right.

    http://december18th.org/

    So, what exactly do you want to discuss about it? Shall we start from the beginning – the background, so to speak?

    Israel has a conscript army. Israel has a draft law because it’s a tiny country, and without conscription it would not have the numbers to have any semblance of an army at all. There are exceptions to the rule – originally, those drafted by law into the armed forces were only Jews, with other national groups within Israel given an exception. Since then, two such groups living in Israel specifically asked that their men be included under the draft – the Druze and the Circassians, a request which was granted and legalized. Bedoin men and, to some extent, Christian Arab men, volunteer in large numbers – but did not ask to be drafted as a group. Muslim Arab volunteers are rarer.

    One can be exempted from being drafted. The basic reasons are physical, religious, and psychological. If one is physically or mentally unfit for service, then he is exempt from service, as defined by a military doctor or psychologist after an examination to ascertain the draftee’s physical and mental state. If the draftee is a religious Jewish woman, then she is exempt from military service – and is instead directed to the civilian National Service, called Sherut Leumi in Hebrew, which is governmental volunteer organization, and where they then do volunteer work in schools, hospitals, community centers, and so on. If the draftee is a religious man currently attending religious studies or is about to start them, then he is either exempt from service for the duration of the studies or permanently, depending on the circumstances – a Druze studying to become one of the al-ˤUqqāl and eventually Ajawīd, or a Jew studying to become a Rabbi would be exempt from service permanently.

    Now we come to the issue of conscientious objectors to being drafted. According to the Israeli High Court, a pacifist has legal grounds to serve in the army – this, of course, if he is pacifist to the core, and doesn’t selectively define what he is pacifist about. Selective refusal is deemed illegal.

    And now we’ve come, finally, to the link you’ve brought. Firstly, I hope you realize that first and foremost it proves that Israel is a society of diverse political views. We’re not monolithic. Nor is there anything illegal in holding a political view that is against the actions of the establishment per se.

    The problem here starts when the political views bring to actions that are illegal. Refusing to serve in the army based on a personal opinion and choice is not a justifiable stance when it comes to Israeli law, and nor is it viewed favorably by the vast majority of Israeli society. Disagreeing with political decisions, and with the orders given to the armed forces, is one thing. Refusing to serve altogether based on that disagreement is something altogether different.

    The Israeli army defines itself as an army of the people, for the people. Service in the army is a duty required of Israeli citizens for the nation’s continued survival, and not a mere political blip on the pages of history. If people are arrogant enough as individuals to decide that *they* are the most important people on the planet, that they understand it all and that *they* must be exempt of that duty because of that, then may make that choice.

    But they also make the choice of facing the consequences – legal charges, and possible imprisonment.

    If disagree with the politics of the country today, let them grow up and work to change them through legal channels. Let them become political activists and politicians should they so choose. Let them redefine the way the nation decides. That is the choice an adult would make, of a man who understands the consequences of his actions.

    These high-school graduates were, unfortunately, children still. And acted in that vein.

  169. Roman Kalik says:

    Correction in bold:

    Now we come to the issue of conscientious objectors to being drafted. According to the Israeli High Court, a pacifist has legal grounds not to serve in the army

  170. Andrew Brehm says:

    Excellent summary, Roman!

  171. Denmark has drafting too. Because we’re not in the same position as Israel, the rules are less strict here. For one, only men are drafted – quite sexist, but since we still see some discrimination between the sexes, and since it IS the women that get pregnant, we live with it. Additionally, you’re allowed to refuse if you happen to draw a low number (only 1 out of 3 have to serve; works like a lottery), in which case you’ll have to serve civil duty, usually for a slightly longer duration.

    I can’t see anything to get exited by in your link, Sand Ape…

  172. From San Apes site:

    “I cannot become part of an organization the purpose of which is to fend off violence by violence, because it stands unequivocally contrary to everything I believe in and to my whole life. There always is another, non-violent option, and it is this option that I choose.”

    Ahhh, from the mouths of over indulged, never had an ounce of responsibility or a job, babes, ignorance is bliss and you can’t fix stupid!

    “If you’re not a liberal at twenty you have no heart, if you’re not a conservative at forty you have no brain.”
    Winston Churchill

    Another very good reason (below) for the non sexist law that drafts not according to sex (Denmark, no ice cream for you tonight!!). Yay Israel!!

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=be6_1232554537

  173. I fully support sexism when it comes to the draft. Sorry, Israel :P

  174. Roman Kalik says:

    I fully support sexism when it comes to the draft.

    *shrug* While women don’t exactly excel in roles that are mainly physical (meaning active, front-line roles in the army, from infantry to armor to piloting in the air-force), they work out just fine everywhere else, be it logistics, technical and technological research, development and support, etc…

  175. all parties have preconceived notions. That is very evident in you. Your remark and I take it your fervent belief : If people are arrogant enough as individuals to decide that *they* are the most important people on the planet.

    On the contrary, they are telling the rest of Israel, get off your high horse, you are not the most important people in the world, quite taking the rights of others.

    This also baffles me,
    If the draftee is a religious Jewish woman…lol.

    Occupation (thou shall not cover thy neighbors wife or land) is illegal in Jewish law. Is Israeli Judaism like a mutated form of its faith like Shia Islam is?

  176. Roman Kalik says:

    @175 Sand Ape:

    On the contrary, they are telling the rest of Israel, get off your high horse, you are not the most important people in the world, quite taking the rights of others.

    Their arrogance stems from their certainty that their ideals, as they perceive them from the youthful certainty and total lack of experience of 18 years of age, are the far more correct than those of everyone else – and to hell with laws, society, and the rest of it.

    And thus, they face the consequences.

    This also baffles me,
    If the draftee is a religious Jewish woman…lol.

    Baffling? Considering the fact that, in the first place, the only women to whom the draft applies to are Jewish, and that in Jewish religious law women should not serve in the army, the option to serve in a capacity befitting to their religious beliefs was codified in the draft laws.

    This, in turn, was due to the immense public pressure on this issue when said laws were written. Thus, religious Jewish women who wish to receive an exemption due to their religious beliefs – get it, and instead serve in Sherut Leumi.

    Occupation (thou shall not cover thy neighbors wife or land) is illegal in Jewish law. Is Israeli Judaism like a mutated form of its faith like Shia Islam is?

    You imply that you understand Jewish religious law. I assure you, you do not – otherwise, you would not have taken a basic law of behavior within a society, and tried to apply it to international affairs. Now, had Palestine been an actual part of the state of Israel, then from the perspective of Jewish religious law, the state would have been obliged to protect the property rights and right to find a self-sustaining form of employment of Arabs living in their midst, Ki ger hayita be’eretz Mitzrai’m – as a reminder that even as slaves in Egypt, we Jews were treated to some extent of civility, and are thus obliged to give better treatment to those guests residing in our own land.

    But that is not the reality we live in. If you want to observe this issue from the position of Judaism, you would best consider such issues as to when a war is considered just, how one handles the issue of land you control as a result of such a war but have chosen not to annex, and to what extent one can go to protect one’s life as an individual, or in a more collective sense…

    And that is a tad more complex.

  177. ted: Actually, it’s…

    “Francois Guisot (1787-1874): “Not to be a
    republican at twenty is proof of want of heart; to be one at thirty is
    proof of want of head.”
    Revived by French Premier Georges
    Clemenceau (1841-1929): “Not to be a socialist at twenty is proof of
    want of heart; to be one at thirty is proof of want of head.”"

    Socialist and liberal is not neccesarily the same thing – I consider myself a liberal (as opposed to conservative) and I’m regarded as right wing by socialists.

    RK: Actually, women make the best fighter pilots, since they have a build that’s much better suited to high G-forces than most men… :)

  178. This is where I politely end up telling you that your logic seems so far flawed at first glance — and even more so after further scrutiny — that it is painful to even try to absorb such hypocrisy in order to try and fully understand it. I am afraid that I am sadly falling into the mainstream err of thinking that Jews are just too hard to fully understand and that they bad and think for some reason that they are more refined, ethically.

    I thought Israel was a secular society state man, what’s with all the jurisprudence and judicial law of Judea mixed with Gay bars? If it is a secular state then it can not be a theocracy. Gay rights and Judaism just don’t mix. If you do believe in God then maybe you realize this deep down inside of you but are helpless to do anything about it as you probably consider the lesser of two evils and the good of an entire state to be more important!

    If Israel wasn’t under constant attack from its neighbors for the unspeakable oppression and atrocities it has commits against them, than maybe they wouldn’t need Western help, hence Western ideals, just maybe!

    “You imply that you understand Jewish religious law. I assure you, you do not – otherwise, you would not have taken a basic law of behavior within a society, and tried to apply it to international affairs. ”

    That makes no sense RK..

    BOTTOM LINE, in Layman’s terms..YOU GUYS NEED A HOMELAND, anyone that stands in your way, whether they are justified or not, is a threat to your national security and must be discredited, silenced, annihilated or won over, or else they are threat to your national identity and continued existence.

    Please be proud of your religion, national identity or whatever but by all means please stop trying to make me see the light!

  179. “Gay rights and Judaism just don’t mix”

    Why not?

    Come on, Islam is the ONLY religion that stubbornly refuses to enter the modern world and revise some of the neanderthal thinking of thousands of years ago… Why do you think it’s so difficult for muslims to integrate into the modern societies when they move there? Not to mention the enormous communication gap evident between the ME and the western world…

    We’ve moved on, why don’t you as well?

  180. Roman Kalik says:

    @178 Sand Ape:

    I thought Israel was a secular society state man, what’s with all the jurisprudence and judicial law of Judea

    Well, Sand Ape, this is what you asked me about – you asked for the view from the side of Judaism, not from the side of the secular laws of the State of Israel. That is what you attempted to understand, and that is what I attempted to answer you about. Please try not to get too sidetracked here.

    Gay rights and Judaism just don’t mix. If you do believe in God then maybe you realize this deep down inside of you but are helpless to do anything about it as you probably consider the lesser of two evils and the good of an entire state to be more important!

    I fail to understand the relevance of this to the issue at hand.

    If Israel wasn’t under constant attack from its neighbors for the unspeakable oppression and atrocities it has commits against them

    So Israel oppressed Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Lybia, and so on… all the way from 1948 and onward?

    Sand Ape, we only just mentioned preconceived notions and prejudices. And here you go again.

    than maybe they wouldn’t need Western help, hence Western ideals, just maybe!

    Again, not at all relevant to the issue at hand.

    “You imply that you understand Jewish religious law. I assure you, you do not – otherwise, you would not have taken a basic law of behavior within a society, and tried to apply it to international affairs. ”

    That makes no sense RK..

    Makes perfect sense, actually. It’s the difference between a matter between two individuals and a matter between two countries.

    BOTTOM LINE, in Layman’s terms..YOU GUYS NEED A HOMELAND, anyone that stands in your way, whether they are justified or not, is a threat to your national security and must be discredited, silenced, annihilated or won over, or else they are threat to your national identity and continued existence.

    Back to prejudice and hatred, I’m afraid. If we were so intent on destroying everything and anything that *might* stand in our way, the entire Middle-East would have been a smoking, irradiated pile of rubble. We act against direct threats rather than potential threats – which is why we have these peace agreements with Jordan and Egypt, rather than with smoking ruins. We would much prefer living in more peaceful environment – we’re just not willing to give up our very lives to get there.

    Please be proud of your religion, national identity or whatever but by all means please stop trying to make me see the light!

    I’m trying to make you “see the light”? Hardly.

  181. “That makes no sense RK..”

    Of course it doesn’t make sense to you Sandy, you”re intellectually lazy. You’re up against vastly superior minds here (myself not included), you’re being led around the arena like a prized pig at the county fair with no realization that your reward will be slaughter. Or, if you do realize it, you’re just glad to be, from your point of view, the center of attention for a few brief moments. Bottom line is, the cause you celebrate is looking worse every time you open your mouth and put your foot in. In the years to come, maybe you can come to the SM archives and see what foolishness you believed in during your tender teenaged years, it’s not a crime to grow up and become more aware of the world around you.

  182. I figured it out!! :) :) :)

    During the creation of Israel there was this large movement called Pan Arabism. It meant that all Arabs are one unit whose combined welfare is paramount. y

    You fail to see this or even consider it as a relative factor so instead when I say Israel oppressed us. You retort with a condescending sarcastic tone as if I am some kind of intellectual imbecile, which does a lot to harm your case. I understand full well where is Israel is coming from and what it is trying to achieve.

    When one Jew gets a bloody nose somewhere in the world, Israel takes it as if all Jews have received a bloody nose, which is a noble cause. but you intentionally fail allow me the same courtesy.

    Very condescending indeed:

    “So Israel oppressed Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Lybia, and so on… all the way from 1948 and onward?”

    Denying This totally crosses the line:

    BOTTOM LINE, in Layman’s terms..YOU GUYS NEED A HOMELAND, anyone that stands in your way, whether they are justified or not, is a threat to your national security and must be discredited, silenced, annihilated or won over, or else they are threat to your national identity and continued existence.

    Then accusing this very fair statement of being prejudice and false is the very essence of prejudice itself. This statement is from tel Aviv and AIPAC which is common knowledge, notice I used the word won over, but all you chose to emphasize is Israeli welfare nuclear might that could blow up the world and contaminate itself..
    Sounds like the same – HUBIRIS as displayed by the YOM KIPPUR awakening if you ask me.
    In the end, you convinced me.. I now bow down, you may have the land!

    I can bet the life of every one of my family members that you will continue to blamelessly rant!

  183. “When one Jew gets a bloody nose somewhere in the world, Israel takes it as if all Jews have received a bloody nose, which is a noble cause. but you intentionally fail allow me the same courtesy.”

    I seriously doubt it, and there are plenty of israeli/jew anti-war activists out there to show you otherwise – you yourself have provided a few links to support this as welll…

    “BOTTOM LINE, in Layman’s terms..YOU GUYS NEED A HOMELAND, anyone that stands in your way, whether they are justified or not, is a threat to your national security and must be discredited, silenced, annihilated or won over, or else they are threat to your national identity and continued existence”

    That’s not the bottom line – that’s your opinion.

  184. The biggest problem with debating bigots is when you mention the small helpless state of Israels defense apparatus which it could not survive without. Such as AIPAC and other powerful-effective public opinion swaying influential foundations. We get called conspiracy theorists and belittled. Instead of the bigots saying, YES, why don’t you try forming such a foundation yourselves instead of (add Hamas behavior here _ _ _ _). But NO! Denying such facts in an attempt to belittle and discredit us is seen as far more useful, isn’t it?

  185. Adam,

    Stay the heck out of it, nobody asked you for your opinion OK. Quit trying to be a cyber terrorist my friend!

    BTW what does may insinuation that RK-SPECIFICALLY fails to recognize the concept of Pan Arab unity have to do with your reply, below?:

    ((I seriously doubt it, and there are plenty of israeli/jew anti-war activists out there to show you otherwise – you yourself have provided a few links to support this as welll…))

    I know it will seem like I am cowering away but I shall start to ignore you and if you say anything derogatory or condescending to me from this point on wards then I will revert to the usual sewer lingo!

  186. “the small helpless state of Israel”

    If Israel is helpless, what does that say of the combined might of all it’s neighbours…? :D

    I like how you throw the word “bigot” around at will… You, who calls jews pigs and apes, uses the word jew as a swear wordto smear those of us who ain’t, views homosexuality as a crime/sin, etc. etc.

    By the way, the structure of your post 184 is so messed up that it’s impossible to guess at what your argument is, if there really is one…

  187. Andrew Brehm says:

    “anti-war activists”

    I am curious, “Sand Ape”…

    Is a protester who demands the continued fight by Hamas against Israel an “anti-war” activist or a “pro-war” activist?

    Likewise, is an Israeli who supports swift strikes against Hamas to end rocket fire over several years FOR or AGAINST war?

  188. Sand Ape, you’re not in a position to decide who can take part in this conflict and who can’t. The world ain’t that big, and muslims have made damn sure that no part of the world is free of this conflict.

    As for your and RK’s dispute over pan-arabism, I haven’t mentioned it with a word. I just pointed out that your view of jewish comradeship is wacko.

    “and if you say anything derogatory or condescending to me from this point on wards then I will revert to the usual sewer lingo!”

    Considering you viewing rational critiscism as being derogatory and condescending, that’s gonna be hard to avoid, I’m afraid. Besides, you being the king of derogatory and condescending retorts, that whine does sound a bit hollow.

  189. AN EYE FOR AN EYE!

    IF I CALLED ONE OR TWO JEWS HERE PIGS AND APES AND USE IT AS A SMEAR WORD.

    MANY REFINED POSTERS HERE HAVE CALLED HAMAS TERRORISTS MERELY FOR CONTINUING A BATTLE THAT ISRAEL STARTED…

    AFTER THROWING THEM OFF OF THEIR LAND AS PALESTINIANS,
    KILLING THEIR MOTHERS,
    IMPRISONING THEIR FATHERS
    BURNED THEIR HOUSES
    TOOK THEIR WATER AND OLIVE GROVE
    BOMBED THEIR LAND
    STARVED THEM BEHIND WALLS
    HUMILIATED THEM AND TOOK THEIR DIGNITY

    BUT STILL ISRAEL BLAMES HAMAS FOR NOT APPRECIATING ISRAEL AND FIRING ROCKETS AT IT!

  190. You are obviously unable to see the difference between calling someone terrorist, being able to explain why they ARE terrorists, and calling someone apes and pigs (which they biologically can’t possibly be) because you don’t agree with them. Still, no excuse.

    “AFTER THROWING THEM OFF OF THEIR LAND AS PALESTINIANS,
    KILLING THEIR MOTHERS,
    IMPRISONING THEIR FATHERS
    BURNED THEIR HOUSES
    TOOK THEIR WATER AND OLIVE GROVE
    BOMBED THEIR LAND
    STARVED THEM BEHIND WALLS
    HUMILIATED THEM AND TOOK THEIR DIGNITY”

    Exactly what the arabs hoped (and still hope) to do with the jews, only they got their ass handed to them. It’s no good being a hypocrite…

  191. “Pan Arab unity”

    ROTFLMAO!!

  192. ” from this point on wards then I will revert to the usual sewer lingo!”

    That’ll really show us! ;)

    You certainly have a way of destroying what ever advancement you may have made! Losing the debate, start throw sewage like the ape in a cage.

  193. In case you missed the trivial fact, we are in a state of war against one another, you and I, and in war all is fair!

  194. “In case you missed the trivial fact, we are in a state of war against one another, you and I, and in war all is fair!”

    Sure, but not wise, if your aim is to convince someone to see things from your point of view…

  195. Same goes fer yu ya fiesty mongrel, ee; hee he hee!

  196. Right, but I’m not threatening to retort to “the usual sewer lingo”… ;)

  197. “and in war all is fair!”

    So what’s your complaint about the way Israel prosecuted the war against Hamas?

    ;)

  198. “and in war all is fair!” (for our little hypocrite that is)

  199. Roman Kalik says:

    @182 Sand Ape:

    During the creation of Israel there was this large movement called Pan Arabism. It meant that all Arabs are one unit whose combined welfare is paramount.

    Yes and no. The movement, in and by itself, of Arab Nationalism in particular and Pan-Arabic Nationalism in general, did indeed exist during the creation of State of Israel.

    Only it wasn’t a decisive factor quite yet. In 1948, Iraq was a monarchy. So was Egypt. So was Jordan, and so was Saudi Arabia.

    The only actual representative of active Arab Nationalism was Syria under al-Quwatli, a country that at the time had four separate parliaments and constitutions, which didn’t prevent to pursue the vision of Greater Syria.

    You fail to see this or even consider it as a relative factor so instead when I say Israel oppressed us.

    Oh, I accept it as a later nationalist factor, and one of the major reasons for all the wars we’ve had in the region. I recognize the rise of pan-Arab nationalism as the reason behind many of the region’s genocides – the Kurds, to name one. Because while pan-Arab nationalism saw Arabs as a united front, it also left no room in the region for any other identity or national entity.

    Which is why it didn’t quite catch on with the Jews, the Kurds, the Bedoin, the Druze… all the people that pan-Arab nationalism pretended never existed.

    When one Jew gets a bloody nose somewhere in the world, Israel takes it as if all Jews have received a bloody nose, which is a noble cause. but you intentionally fail allow me the same courtesy.

    But we don’t take it that far, Sand Ape. There is an inherent difference between serving as a safe haven for refugees, diplomatic efforts, and rescue operations, to waging war on anyone who so much as blinks toward you the wrong way.

    Did we attack Arab countries even as they uprooted their Jewish populations and gave them the boot? Did we attack the Soviet Union for religious and ethnic suppression of Jews? Do we bomb Iran when it marked Jews as people who can’t have international passports – for fear that they’d leave for Israel?

    The difference between Arab shared identity and Jewish shared identity is in how we react when we see “one of us” threatened. If and when you understand that difference, we may have something worth talking about further.

  200. 200!

    Ha!!

  201. “and in war all is fair!”
    So what’s your complaint about the way Israel prosecuted the war against Hamas?

    LOLOLOLOL

    EXACTLY: So then whats your complaint about tipping the scales with a few dead toddlers at Jewish day care centers worldwide?

    I think infant butchering is disgusting!

    But unfortunately its an eye for an eye world!

  202. LMAO @ this:

    “Did we attack Arab countries even as they uprooted their Jewish populations and gave them the boot?”

    It is retarded to keep using this illogical weeping sub Holocaust line. What a bunch of weeping whiners, lol.

    We all know that American did the same to the poor Japanese Americans after Japan attacked Pearl Harbour!

    The sudden expulsion of Jews from their Arab lands is similar to the imprisoned and evicted Japanese American citizens after Pearl Harbour Harbour was attacked by Japan.

    After a fringe of radical Jewish terrorists (Holocaust survivors) attacked Arab Palestine and British interests, (which was the terrorist foundation of Israel) …So Arabs dictated expelling Jews from Arab lands as a security measure!

  203. Roman Kalik says:

    @202 Sand Ape:

    It is retarded to keep using this illogical weeping sub Holocaust line.

    Prejudice again? How quaint. I didn’t mention the Holocaust at all, as it had no bearing to the matter at hand. Your obsession with it is again noted.

    We all know that American did the same to the poor Japanese Americans after Japan attacked Pearl Harbour!

    Yes. They put them in relocation camps and moved them away from shores, assuming that anyone with slanted eyes was a potential spy, and had to be watched.

    Forty-five years later, Reagan made a public apology on behalf of the US government for what was, basically, a matter of war hysteria, blatant racism, and a complete and utter failure of wartime policy. 1.6 Billion dollars were paid in reparations.

    The sudden expulsion of Jews from their Arab lands is similar to the imprisoned and evicted Japanese American citizens after Pearl Harbour Harbour was attacked by Japan.

    Yes and no. The US, even during wartime hysteria, didn’t expel its own citizens, opting instead for relocating them to a “safer” location within the country and keeping them under observation – with some cases of outright imprisonment.

    The Arab states took that racist sentiment two steps forward. And unlike the US, never once considered that sentiment to be wrong – instead pretending it never ever happened in the first place.

    After a fringe of radical Jewish terrorists (Holocaust survivors) attacked Arab Palestine and British interests, (which was the terrorist foundation of Israel) …So Arabs dictated expelling Jews from Arab lands as a security measure!

    Just more prejudice and bias, I’m afraid. And quite a lot of hypocrisy.

    Why, if I were to reason in this manner, I could say that the same “radical Jewish terrorists” were completely justified, in that they would have marked all Arab Palestinian populace as potential enemies due to recent events (from the large massacres of 1929 onwards, and the great big war organized by their “brothers” from beyond the border) and acted to expel them as a wartime self-defensive measure.

    I note that this is *your* logic, which is why it is also your hypocrisy.

  204. Before reading past YOUR PREJUDUCE PRECONCEIVED DEMEANING line:

    Prejudice again? How quaint.

    I knew this conversation is over and done with!

    I used the word Holocaust as a descriptive adjective to describe the incoherent drivel of the Jewish expulsion from Arab lands, and I am sure you know that. You are not very sane I am afraid. But like a true antagonist you chose to digress from logical debate and chose to label and comprehend things to your own sarcastic debating style. Figures…

    Fine you won the debate if you like, but we are through here.

    Meanwhile just as we all considered south Africa a sovereign nation, while we clearly new it is a murderous apartheid state. The same goes for Israel, you are wasting a lot of Holocaust capitol already. Nukes wont save you, as was proven in S.A. Human opinion is far too strong!

    Please forgive me for even considering that you or any Zionist may have been at fault. How will I ever forgive myself, shrug!?

  205. Zionism is a sickness, for it takes much more than just a twisted ideology to make people think like that. It requires a profound leap of immorality of a higher order to instill this mentality in your followers. Zionism is not merely a political movement, but in its essence represents a deeply disturbed view of the world, which is a reflection of a terrible disease of the mind.

    Indeed, to deny the existence of a vibrant community such as the Palestinian society in the early twentieth century and describe Palestine as “a land without a people for a people without a land” is a disease of the mind.

    To assert property claims over real estate after the lapse of more than 2000 years with the same certainty of title as if one resided there yesterday is a disease of the mind.

    To describe the colonial immigration to Palestine of a European people with no proven historical link to the ancient Israelites – and whose great, great recorded ancestors have never set foot there – as some kind of a “return” to that land is indicative of a perverted misunderstanding and misapplication of the verb to “return” and can only be a result of a disease of the mind.

    To blame the Palestinians for being unreasonable in rejecting a partition plan in 1947 which gave the Jews, who only owned 7 percent of the land, an astonishing half of Palestine, is a disease of the mind.

    To demand of the Arabs at the time to peacefully succumb to such partition, where 86 percent of the land designated for the proposed Jewish state was Palestinian-inhabited and owned land, is a disease of the mind.

    To eventually grab 78 percent of Palestine through war and to force the flight of the population through deliberate massacres and then call it a war of independence is a disease of the mind.

    To deny the orchestrated massacres and eradications of hundreds of Palestinian villages in 1948 and then denounce the Israeli historians who later exposed this truth as self-hating Jews is a disease of the mind.

    To claim that having escaped the horrors of Auschwitz-Birkenau, Treblinka, and Dachau is a justification for the murder, expulsion, and occupation of another guiltless people is a disease of the mind.

    To legislate that any resident of Poland, Hungary, New York, Brazil, Australia, Iceland, or even Planet Mars, who happens to be blessed with a Jewish mother (yet cannot point to Palestine on the map) has a superior right to “return” and settle in Palestine to someone who has been expelled from his very own land, confined to a squalid refugee camp, and still holds the keys to his house, is a disease of the mind.

    To blame God for the theft and occupation of someone else’s land by claiming that it was He who had pledged this land exclusively to the Jews, and to seriously promote the myth of a land promised by the Almighty to His favorite children as an excuse for this crime, is a disease of the mind.

    To milk the pockets of the world for the atrocities of the Nazis, while stubbornly refusing a simple admission of guilt, let alone compensation or repatriation, for the catastrophe that befell the Palestinian people is a disease of the mind.

    To keep reminding and blackmailing the world of the plight of the Jews under Hitler 70 years ago, while at the same time inflicting on the Palestinians today the same fate of the Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto, is a disease of the mind.

    To impose a collective guilt overshadowing Western civilization for the Holocaust and then to criminalize all legitimate historical debate of the nature and extent of that horrific event is a disease of the mind.

    To virtually incarcerate the Palestinian people inside degrading cages, destroying their livelihoods, confiscating their lands, stealing their water and uprooting their trees, and then to condemn their legitimate resistance as terrorism is a disease of the mind.

    To believe you have the right to chase the Palestinians into an Arab capital city in 1982 and to indiscriminately bombard its civilians for a relentless three months, murdering thousands of innocent people is a disease of the mind.

    To encircle the civilian camps of Sabra and Chatila after evacuating the fighters and to unleash on them trained dogs (while providing them with night-illuminating flares for efficiency) and then deny culpability for the carnage is a disease of the mind.

    To publicly declare a policy of breaking the bones of Palestinian stone-throwers to prevent them from lifting stones again and to enact this policy is a disease of the mind.

    To have the sadistic streak of exacting vengeance on the innocent families of suicide bombers by punishing them with the dynamiting of their home is a disease of the mind.

    To describe the offer of giving the Palestinians 80 percent of 22 percent of 100 percent of what is originally their own land as a “generous” offer is a disease of the mind.

    To believe that you have the right to continue to humiliate the Palestinians at gun point by making them queue for hours to move between their villages, forcing mothers to give birth at check-points is a disease of the mind.

    To flatten the camp of Jenin on its inhabitants and deny any wrongdoing is a delusional condition which is symptomatic of a serious disease of the mind.

    To build a huge separation wall under the pretext of security, which disconnects farmers from their farms and children from their schools, while stealing even more territory as the wall freely zigzags and encroaches on Palestinian land is a disease of the mind.

    To leave behind, in the last 10 days of a losing war in Lebanon, more than one million cluster bombs which have no purpose except to murder and maim unsuspecting civilians is a product of an evil disease of the mind.

    To believe that the entire world is out to get you and to denounce any critic of the racist policies of the State of Israel as an anti-Semite, the latest victim being none other than peace-making Jimmy Carter, is an acute stage of mass paranoia, which is a disease of the mind.

    To possess, in the midst of a non-nuclear Arab world, more than 200 nuclear warheads capable of incinerating the whole planet in addition to having the most advanced arsenal of weaponry in the world while continuing to play the role of a victim is a disease of the mind.

    Yes, and for that salesman in peaceful Geneva to be so insecure as to refuse to acknowledge the name of the largest West Bank city under his country’s brutal military occupation is, sadly, nothing but an infectious disease of the mind.

    That’s all what it is, ladies and gentlemen: Zionism is an incurable disease of the mind.

    Take care, and if you ride, do it safely.

    ———————————————————————————————

    Zaid Nabulsi is a lawyer. He spent many years working for the United Nations in Geneva.

  206. “the incoherent drivel of the Jewish expulsion from Arab lands”

    Would that be similar to the incoherent drivel of the arab expulsion from Israel…?

    It’s odd you keep bringing up South Africa and it’s apartheid regime all the time – your attitude is the one on this blog that comes the closest to their discrimiative mindset.

  207. !! – AMEN – !!

  208. Thanks for proving my point again meat-head, that Zionism is a sickness of the mind !!

  209. Roman Kalik says:

    @204 Sand Ape:

    I used the word Holocaust as a descriptive adjective to describe the incoherent drivel of the Jewish expulsion from Arab lands, and I am sure you know that.

    Ah. And here I thought it was an automatic return to a familiar form of argument – that of reducing your opponent to pseudo-individual so as to ignore the gist of his argument (they called it ad hominem in Europe – I think it was mentioned in regard to your posts, oh… a dozen times now?).

    Allow me to be blunt. You ignore any and every form of argument from “Zionists and Jews” if and when they make use of anything that makes an Arab (any Arab) look bad, and a Jew (any Jew) as a rather blameless bystander.

    This is because you find it far more convenient to measure us a malevolent collective or group – a kind of faceless, inhuman mass of one-liners, out of which crawl the occasional Good People that prove how bad we are.

    While amusing to some (myself included) it doesn’t actually constitute an argument, merely a slur. It didn’t have anything to do with facts, history, or dispassionate analysis – it was merely a kind of disclaimer for to say how victimizing we are at your (referring in this case to Arabs) expense, a way for you to feel *better* about yourself by saying that I, the so-called Zionist, am Evil, Insane, and Likely Both.

    @205 Sand Ape:

    Zaid Nabulsi is a lawyer. He spent many years working for the United Nations in Geneva.

    What, out of energy to do your own one-sided rants filled with vim, vigor, and reductionist semantic? I’m actually disappointed here, Sand Ape. Surely you can do your own without copy-pasting someone else’s.

  210. “Zaid Nabulsi is a lawyer. He spent many years working for the United Nations in Geneva.”

    According to Hamas, the UN is run by Jews and is going to take over the world for Jews!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

    “You may speak as much as you want about regional and world wars. They were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state. It was they who instigated the replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the world through them. There is no war going on anywhere, without having their finger in it.”

    What about the war between Hamas and Fatah! It’s obviously the Jew’s fault!! LOL

  211. Who won the Gaza war? Ask the people that live there:

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,603203,00.html#ref=rss

  212. You pretty much nailed it R Kelly, that’s how we feel about Zionists in general. Zionism is in fact an incurable disease of the mind!

    As for the article, it is a perfectly written and I wouldn’t dare try and change anything in it or take credit for it myself. Therefore I presented in its entirety.

    Thanx for continually providing evidence that Zionism is in fact an incurable disease of the mind! Oh and who could forget — the odd ball — tedders occasional bottom feeder contribution’s!

  213. ” that’s how we feel about Zionists in general. Zionism is in fact an incurable disease of the mind!”

    Another great quote for your south-african-apartheid references/accusations…!

    Oh man, you take the cake!!! :D

  214. Don’t I???

    :)

    I have flustered you into incongenial self denial and have scattered your brains quite nicely!

    Boo hoo hoo, YUP, listen tour whimpering to my comparisons to South Africa,

    “Waaah waaah, that’s not fair, don’t compare us to South Africa, waah waaah, cause they were worse, waah waah!”

    SMILES “)

    Um, ya sure..Whatever…if you say so!

  215. “I have flustered”

    That’s partially true – your complete ignorance and ridiculous self-righteousness did indeed fluster me in the beginning, but that’s long gone now… You’ve time and again proven yourself the epitome of ignoramous, and this latest kindergarden-level response further cements it. Get caught in a lie or a self-contradiction? Spew bile, rant, resort to name-calling or change the subject! Yours and every other 6 year old’s solution… :D

  216. Hey man, I am sorry, but thanx at least for coming clean and admitting :Get caught in a lie or a self-contradiction? Spew bile, rant, resort to name-calling or change the subject! Yours and every other 6 year old’s solution… ”

    It takes amn to do that !

  217. Sand Ape: Glad you are beginning to see the errors of your ways – there may be hope for you yet… :)

  218. He ever since you admitted that you get caught in a lie and out of frustration spew bile, and ZionistJIDF tactics..I have respected you and had to do the same!

    :)

  219. I have admitted to no such thing. :D

    I’ve pointed out your severe mental limitations a few posts up – obviously you also have a serious lack in reading-skills, since you have misenterpreted my words so badly…

  220. You must admit, your logic when talking to me is much harder to follow when as compared when you are talking to someone else other than me. So I basically don’t understand a lot of what you have to say, ever since our fall out dude!
    Nice!

  221. Ah, no…

    Try and read post 215 again – it’s quite clear, really…

  222. in general duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude!!

    in general !!!

  223. Your opinion…

  224. Adam B. is making perfect sense, rational, consistent, lucid, well thought out statements.

    Sand Ape, well … not so much.

    Anyone else here disagree?

  225. Adam,
    In case you haven’t figured it out yet puppy face!
    You are ignored due to the abject intellectual poverty and incoherency you are displaying which makes it time for me to move on although I have enjoyed it immensely.
    I realize that I have really flustered you into some major self denial and you hate the fact that I am pushing all your buttons while all you can do is deny it and do absolutely nothing about it.
    Also due to the simple fact that I have severely insulted your mother, father, family, country, views, sexuality, mentality, debating styles and your verbal excrement in short bursts!.
    Keep reading this every time you post to me, because that’s all you are going to get out of me!
    Have fun you stale Danish!

  226. Sand Ape surrenders. :(

    No more court jester. :(

    At least we have an archive of his piss and vinegar!! :)

    Maybe we can make a collection of his greatest gaffs and faux pas’! ;)

  227. Ted, don’t worry – it’s only me he’s “ignoring”… You go right ahead and keep the fun going! :D

  228. :)

  229. “should shame Israel for inflicting violence upon a population, resulting in the shameful ratio of 100:1 (killing 100 Palestinians for every 1 Israeli killed).”

    Arab-Israeli fatalities (since 1948) according to Gunnar Heinsohn (University of Bremen):

    40,000 dead Arabs
    22,000 dead Israelis

    http://www.danielpipes.org/4990/arab-israeli-fatalities-rank-49th

    Next time, please, name your sources and be realistic.