The View from Tehran today

It's not slowing down!

Neither are photoshopped, by the way, unlike some people's rallies!

Comments

  1. They have to go for a second revolution before the momentum is lost.

    It’s now or never

  2. It won’t slow down anytime soon.

    Mr. Mousavi is no prize and is unlikely to be any friendlier to the United States or its allies than Mr. Saborjhian (also known as Mahmoud Ahmadinejad). Mr. Mousavi’s alliance with Hashemi Rafsanjani, the Hermann Goering of Iran’s mullah’s republic, does not inspire confidence. However, he is the banner of the Iranian opposition and he should be recognized as such for the time being.

    For what it’s worth, I think the unrest will last for at least the next couple of years. Neither side will give in. Although Mr. Ahmadinejad has Iran’s repressive apparatus on his side, he made a critical blunder. He insulted Mr. Mousavi’s wife by questioning her credentials to teach university classes. There is a natural sympathy people will feel toward a husband whose wife has been insulted by a crude bully. Mr. Ahmadinejad shows how a crude bully with a Ph.D. is still a crude bully.

    It is noteworthy that Iranian demonstrators have called for Grand Ayatollah Montazeri to become Iran’s Supreme Leader on an interim basis until the Iranian constitution can be changed. I regard this development to be more important than Iran’s so-called “presidential election” itself. Considering how Khamanei’s title of Ayatollah is more political than scholarly, calling for Grand Ayatollah Montazeri’s assumption of power would ironically be more in keeping with the basic principles of velayat-e-faqih than Iran’s present regime could ever hope for.

    I think Grand Ayatollah Montazeri would be an improvement over Iran’s present regime, for he appears to have a passing acquaintance with morality. Wonderful? No. Sadly, I doubt there is any potential Iranian leader I would actually like.

  3. I wish them the best. I hope this means they’ve actually awakened and will take their country back eventually. They failed last time, not when they deposed the Shah, but when they put another tyrannical government in his place.

  4. AntonGarou says:

    Actually I suspect that making Montazeri the Supreme Leader will rather quickly lead to de-theocratization of the Iranian state, as one of his many publicly held opinions is that the state and the mosque should be separated.

  5. “Sadly, I doubt there is any potential Iranian leader I would actually like.”

    Spot on, Alexis.

    In this vein, it surprises me that so many young iranians are putting themselves in such danger to protest just an election result. I would have thought they’d be trying to change the government – the islamic republic – itself. As far as I can tell, Mousavi and – for that matter – Montazeri are just minor variations on an unpleasant theme, not worth sticking one’s neck out for.

    Most of the iranians I know would I think agree with this. There again, they all live in the west. Apparently, it feels different if you’re living in teheran, isfahan, tabriz….

    Obama has also noticed that “mousavi is less different than advertised”. This is a lousy smokescreen for not demanding an end to police brutality. The leader of the free world should be insisting that demonstrators, opposition politicians and journalists are treated decently, even if mousavi is exactly the same. Sorry for injecting our local politics into it, everyone.

  6. AntonGarou says:

    dick @5: I suspect that from the inside the differences seem larger. In addition IIRC Gorbachev didn’t look that different from previous Soviet leaders initially- sometimes it’s the small cracks in the dam that destroy it eventually.

    As to Obama- as SM mentioned earlier any approval of Mousavi will actually hurt the reformist cause, painting them as American puppets for some of the fence sitters.

  7. They are going it wrong, march straight to Qom.

  8. Jessica says:

    unbelievable

  9. Those who are protesting are indeed incurring great risk. I believe that the Iranian people know what they want and seek the freedom and safety of a secure life, but it seems that there are no leaders within Iran who care about them or their vision —or international leaders who are concerned at all. I don’t know; perhaps Mousavi is indeed an improvement. I am disappointed in Obama’s response to this crisis. It looks like what it is: a short-sighted plan of inaction and indifference to the suffering of the Iranian people.

  10. I think AntonGarou is correct. Montazeri is one of the quietist shia and he wants clergy not to meddle to politics. I also believe that Iranians inside Iran see more differences between candidates than could be seen from the outside .

    On the other hand I disagree about Obama. I think that his acknowledging electoral fraud would help demonstrators. I think that what SM wrote was true a month ago but now, at this moment, Iranians need help and strong statement from Obama would help them insted of harming them. I think such a statement is very important, particularly with cell- telephones down, journalists being booted out of Iran and internet slow to non-existent. I heard that the strong statement from Sarkozy helped Iranian demonstrators somewhat so I believe that strong statement from Obama would help them, too. Irregardless of government accusations aimed at demonstrators of being counter-revolutionary, counter-islamic, pro-western-you-spy-for-them.

    I would also like you to think on one thing – if, just if, mousavi supporters will not win many Iranians will find themselves in Evin prison, many would lose their jobs, and the crack-down on people would be slow but may be very, very bad. Also the politics of IRI would be much more restrictive than now, and more anti-western than ever before.

    And I think we will all (the west, some muslim countries and some muslim people) will rue the day Ahmadinejad won over demonstrators. Because at that time Ahmadinejad & Khamenei will know that they got what they wanted against will of the majority of Iranians, that western countries stood by and did nothing therefore they will be sure that they can do what they want with impunity.

    And they will do it.

  11. ThirtyFiveUp says:

    About USA meddling. Impossible to know what is going on below the radar. Ahmadinejad is in Russia and a secret meeting would be easy there although difficult to do in Iran.

  12. Just read a political analysis from Stratfor that stated that political leaders in the world assume that Ahmadinejad will maintain control, keep his presidency and grip on power, backed by the clerics who do not want a change, and therefore, they are withholding comments or making mild ones and being noncommittal. I haven’t heard what Sarkozy said; what was it?

  13. I agree with a lot said here, and feel a sense of urgency. An opportunity may arise again, I don’t think it’s never, BUT if it’s not now, the next opportunity may be a very, very long time coming.

    Given the blockade the government is trying to impose, it seems really important that protesters know that Obama does NOT represent most Americans, who are cheering them on and wanting to scream in rage at Obama’s seeming endorsement of a sham election and gang of thugs.

    Is there someplace we can post messages that Iranian protesters might see that they could hopefully gather steam from? So that they know the weak signals and “we don’t care” vibes sent out by Obama are in fact NOT what real Americans are feeling. If even they had an inkling of the amount of support they had, what the thugs are trying to keep from them, they won’t easily give up.

    What else can we do?

  14. In a sane world their would be millions of little parachutes falling all over Iran with a serviceable rifle and 1000 rounds attached.

  15. THE CROWDS ARE IN FOR A LOUSY FEW MONTHS

    This genie is out of the bottle. Change may be slow in coming, nevertheless, it will come.

    http://pacificgatepost.blogspot.com/2009/06/new-dawn-for-iran.html

    The mullahs may have long feared that change would eventually come in reaction to their abuse of the population. Many have moved the proceeds of their pilfering offshore, “just in case.” Some have built themselves Los Angeles and West Vancouver mansions, in anticipation that the gun might eventually not suppress the crowds in Tehran.

    The potential for change is directly conditional on the persistence and endurance of the youth filling the streets of Iran.

  16. Scott

    I don’t’ think they want rifles. In fact I am nearly sure they do not want weapons. . I think they want to do everything themselves but they want some words of support from US government and other governments. So they know that people and their government support them.

    lynn

    I have not read Stratfor analysis but I read others from elsewhere and most analysts or/and journalists were sure that everything would fizzle out. Of course they wrote these analysis two or three days ago, but still………….

    Sarkozy denounces Iranian votes as fraud.
    http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gGWaYHT1MAWSjDJaCrPmLR-dCw0Q

  17. ups sorry.
    should be “so they know that people and their governments” i/o government.

  18. Kathy k. you are wrong! The Shah was good! He was pro-Western and a great Iranian patriot and he loved his people and he gave the vote to the women. Get to know the facts! The Empress Farah did much good for her people also. The Iranian people were wrong to demonstrate against him. Now they see the Truth and demonstrate to overthrow the real tyranical regime! The solution is to call Reza II his son who is a very democratic man and who means to restore Democracy.Iran should become next a Constitutional Monarchy like all the North-Western European Countries including Spain.inshallah!

  19. Cornelius I beg to differ. People protested against the Shah for his excesses and all the corruption that went on at the time. What they ended up getting is a more insiduous form of corruption and a bunch of ragheaded terrorists to tell them how to cut their hair and what to eat and drink.

    Its very similar to the situation in Egypt, people vote for MB because they’re not NDP. Should the MB be able to get power (god forbid) it would take people the 30 years it too the persioans to realize what a colossal monstrous fuck up it was.

    I also dont see Moussawi to be that much better than ANJ. In fact he was responsible for the extablishing of Hezballah so I dont see how reformist he’s going to be.

  20. Cornelius, I do not believe that the Shah was good or good for Iran. During his regime, students from Iran who were attending LSU in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, would take time from their studies to protest in Free Speech Alley, actually in tears, describing the brutality. The US propped him up and kept him in power, much as they did with Saddam at one time, and for their own benefit, not for the sake of the Iranian people. I’ll never forget the passionate cries of those Iranian students, who chanted that the “Shah of Iran is a murderer”—brutal and repressive, and dangerous for the people of Iran.
    NO WAY AT ALL THAT THE SHAH OR HIS FAMILY WOULD BE AN IMPROVEMENT AT ALL FOR THE PEOPLE OF IRAN.

  21. Shunkleash says:

    Seeing that the first Iranian revolution in 79 was hijacked by the lunatic Ruhollah Khomeini and the dimwit Jimmy Carter…I would dare say that so long as the loons, media darlings and the uninformed do not get involved the young people in Iran should at this point be able to handle this revolution. Mousavi is just a figurehead/beacon he does not represent this revolution, THE YOUTH KNOW WHAT THEY WANT. Kick out the mullahs and their vilayet al faqih bullshit, seperate mosque and state and propel Iran into a secular civilian democracy with respect for its rich persian history, women, minorities and most importantly its neighbours.

  22. CarpetCaptain, I keep reading that Moussawi does not offer a different political agenda for the Iranian people, but I do not know the truth of this. The shah of Iran was evidently quite brutal, but perhaps no more so than the regime that they now have. It seems impossible for people to get the kind of leaders that they need; most leaders are self-serving, power mad, and sociopaths.
    It’s a mess, isn’t it?
    Skunkleash, I agree that the youth of Iran want a change… I just don’t know how they can get what they want and need. I despise Jimmy Carter; he could not be dumber. Total peanut brain.

  23. Mousavi program concerns mostly economy, nothing major regarding international relations or nuclear program. However if he gets to be president he will now have freedom of movement, more freedom to make major changes then Khatami had.
    What’s more before he could not say anything like he wanted a major change, after all he was the one of the 4 candidates accepted by Guardian Council and if he said something like that he would not have been accepted.
    So we really do not know whether he wants big changes or not.
    In his speech on today’s demonstration he was (among others) saying:
    “I know of no creation who places HIMSELF ahead of 20 million of the nation. We are Muslims – what is happening in Iran Gov is a sin . This Gov is not what Imam Khomeini wanted for Iran…. – I will change all this”

  24. Lynne thats the thing; I dont see any real change as result unless this ends up being a full revolution culminating with the overthrow (and preferably hanging) of the Mullahs like they’ve done to innocent men, women and children.

    “. This Gov is not what Imam Khomeini wanted for Iran…. – I will change all this”

    Ella If I was a gambling man I’d bet this is exactly what Khomeini had in mind. Are there really any other forms of theorcracy?

  25. Shunkleash…

    I’m with Shunkleash…the youth of Iran hate their situation. This is similar to 79 in many ways…just religious represssion instead secular…and people are not dumb and hate it and finally they got the spark to set-off the fire…

    How repression will the ragheads get? Dunno…but people are tired of repression, a horrible economy, being ridculed by a good part of the world, favoritism, etc etc. Too bad a real life hero or heroes can’t find theway to the front and lead something that could really bring Iran into a better place for themselves and for most of the world.

  26. Marie Claude says:

    Musavi is with the ayatollahs

    there have been 249 deads in 3 days

    http://www.iran-resist.org/article5437.html

  27. Marie Claude says:

    MARG BAR JOMHURI ESLAMI

  28. Hey Carpet-Head

    Let’s face the facts buddy. You are not very credible. You got called on pretty hard in the other thread and got disgraced rather badly. For spewing hate and calling second generation Americans and fellow Arab Copts turban heads.

    Is it true your mother tongue is Arabic and you are a first generation immigrant who bought his way into Canada? That makes YOU a rag head buddy. [glass houses/stones] ? A descendant of slum dwellers who live like vermin. You know the ones who spread Hep C by repackaging contaminated needles.

    So now I see why you must really hate yourself.

    No wonder people saw you smoking crack on E. Hastings while acquiring the services of a Vancouver skank after leaving the welfare office.

  29. I have to admire the discipline of these immense crowds, particularly the silent demonstration. Their protest is peaceful but definite and it places the regime in a very difficult position. Their ability, with the help of their friends overseas to get out the news, is also critical to the outcome.

    These demonstrators are reasonable: they are asking only for incremental change, namely honest reporting of the results of an election under a rigged system. They aren’t even asking to have a free choice of candidates, simply their choice of pre-selected candidates. Regardless of how this election is decided, their leaders will have future influence.

    This is clear evidence of intelligent leadership supported by consensus: Iran has what it takes to become a model Muslim country that is peaceful, prosperous, and free.

    The real question right now is whether the leaders inside the regime are as smart as the ones outside it, and whether they will have the courage and good will to respond in kind to the demonstrators.

    God bless Iran’s leaders, and may He guide them all to a good result for their people.

  30. EgyPeter says:

    Nabil can go f**k himself Captain. What do you think?

    And if I’ve told you once I’ve told you a million times, Copts are not Arab and they don’t wear turbans/rags. Sorry dude, get your facts straight.

    And it’s ALL of Egypt that has Hep C you dumbass. And it comes from the Nile not refuse you ignorant shit.

  31. Lynne;

    The US did not prop up or keep Saddam in power, only the Shah. Saddam lied, theived, and murdered his own way to the top and continued to do so to stay there.

  32. Khamanei:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/8109303.stm

    In his address to tens of thousands of worshippers at Tehran Friday prayers, which was broadcast live by Iranian state TV and radio, he said the outcome must be decided at the ballot box, not on the street.

    He voiced support for President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, saying the president’s views on foreign affairs and social issues were close to his.

    No shit? Seriously? Who would have guess that!?

    “Please see the hands of the enemy. Please see the hungry wolves in ambush, who are gradually even removing their mask of diplomacy and showing their true faces. Be aware of them.

    “Today, senior diplomats of some Western countries, who addressed us diplomatically up until today, have now removed their masks. They are showing their true faces.

    “They are showing their enmity against the Islamic Republic system and the most evil of them is the British government.”

    And again with the old “Great Satan” bait and switch. Only this time the British get to be the external enemy.

    Tiresome stuff. Whatever happens in Iran, it won’t be worthwhile unless they string up the old guard from the lamp-posts. I’d recommend a trial, but I doubt many people in Iran even know what a fair trial is anymore. They’ve never seen one.

  33. I heard that mousavi & Co., does not want protest march tomorrow, however that was what somebody wrote in guardian.uk so I am not sure if I believe this. On the other hand on twitter they said that there would be protest tomorrow.
    If there would be a protest it may get bloody. I hope there will be a protest tmrw although I hope there would be no casualties. because if they won’t be a protest I believe everything will be over.
    If there will be no protest mousavi and others will save their skin but a lot of people will get imprisoned, will be hurt and there will be major crack down.
    ***
    valerie
    God bless Iranian leaders? Really? Why?
    I hope Iranian leaders (at least some of them) will soon have their just rewards in afterlife., this is exactly what they want after pious life toiling for well-being of Iranians., don’t you think so?

  34. Peter we all know who Nabil is……so not worth the time of day. He has nothing intelligent to contribute to any conversation so let him rot in his own misery. You think he knows the difference between people getting hep from contamination or homosexual incestual relationships like he did?

    Just ignore the pathetic dirtbag!

  35. Ahmadinejad won and the only reason people hate him is because they hate Islam. Simple. He is humble and honest and has tried to show that in everything he does. He is not George Bush and has not started wars and instigated catastrophic events and then got elected for people to claim he rigged it. The only thing blowing this up is America and we all know it, and that’s for their own agenda. I know many Iranians, and I am friends with them. They all have one thing in common, they hate themselves and they hate Islam. If they do not want a religious regime then fine, but this is not the way to do it. Have some honour and respect for yourself, your religion, your traditions, your culture, it makes you who you are. I agree in this day people are not religious and every country I think, not just Iran, needs somebody in the middle, and that doesn’t mean another shah like moussavi. Stop jumping on bandwagons please.

    And sandmonkey how come you’re so eager to believe that this election was rigged but Bush’s election wasn’t rigged? I hate double standards, if you’re going to accuse elections of being rigged, don’t be picky. Not attacking you just hoping you can explain.

  36. P.S. when I was referring to Iranians, I forgot to mention those are the ones that I know, as I am not-religious either and we party, drink, gamble together and all that other shit. But I know, respect, love, and honour my religion and culture and I understand my actions and their consequences. These people do not. They have traded themselves in and even though I do not like this about them, I remain friends with them. Again, this is not the right away to do it, these are two extremes. The western extreme is not better than the religious extreme, and as I do not live in Iran I have no way of knowing if it is truly a religious extreme down there, but if it is then by all means they should voice themselves. But not in this disgusting manner, their hate is so clear.

  37. ella,

    I hope the Iranian leaders are touched by what we like to call “their better angels.” I hope they “blink,” that is, choose to back down a little, and bring about a better result for their country. I do not believe the hardliners want a bad result for their country. I think they are wrong: but they have a choice, and they could choose wisely for the future.

    Nour,

    America had nothing to do with this election, or the accusations of corruption that led to the demonstrations.

    As for the American election, please be aware that there was nobody, NOBODY in America that could approve a list of candidates for the election. For Americans, the entire process for election of Iranian officials is so flawed that most people won’t even believe what they are told when it is described to them. To most Americans, there is no difference at all between the candidates because both of them were approved from some bunch of clerics who should have had no input in the process at all.

  38. Ahmadinejad won and the only reason people hate him is because they hate Islam. Simple.

    Must be nice to be able to delude yourself that way, Nour :)

    I personally started hating Ayatollah Khomeini in 1979, when I was a teenager. “Islam” was just a word to me then, and I didn’t know anything more about Muslims at the time than I know about Hindus now, which is basically nothing. And, I liked it just fine that way. I never told Ayatollah Khomeini to victimize my people in the name of his God, nor did I tell Osama bin Ladin or any other Islamic terrorist to victimize my people in the name of their God. Do you *really* wonder why Islam has been drawing so much fire the last ~30 years? You just want to claim criminals who victimize innocent foreigners are wonderful people, and then call anyone who doesn’t like it a hater? Where is the hate coming from, Nour? I’ll tell you what, you keep all those crazy mass murdering bastards in your part of the world and keep them the fuck away from MY part of the world, and we’ll be fine. Actually, no, that won’t be enough. You also have to force them to stop victimizing foreign workers and tourists in your part of the world, or stop inviting people to visit your part of the world – your choice. And by the way, since it seems like you don’t even live in your part of the world, how about getting your ass back to where you belong, since you like things that way so much.

  39. Cameron says:

    mullahfuckers

    lying priests, turbans of black and white
    Childraping pigs look haunting, a horrid sight
    With the Children of Persia, extinguishing light

    lying priests, in their flatulent robes
    living corruption, want all the globe’s
    Third Arab conquest, Persia disrobes

    lying priests, deep in the unholy city of qom
    no doubt, hell’s where they were shit from
    their stench, like liters of fermented camel cum

    lying priests, buried by crime and lies
    fat thin tall and small, each and every size
    deniers of just and true, pleas and cries

    lying priests, pockets so deeply lined
    with sins of each and every sinful kind
    never has Evil been, so obviously, Signed

    a salute to these brave Iranians, Death is too kind for their oppressors

  40. “Its Our Turn Now!!!”

    Obama made a comment recently that his speech in Cairo was a catalyst for the events in Iran. What a pathetic joke.

    First, this has been fomenting in Iran for many years. There have been many attempts by the Iranian people to gain freedom from the tyrannical, mad mullahs.

    But much of this current event may be attributable the great gains made by the peoples of Iraq and Afghanistan, especially the former.

    The Iranians are mostly Shia and they have great desire to pilgramage to Nasrala and other religious cities in Iraq. For decades, such pilgramages were limited because of the animosity between Iran and Sadam Huusein. Now that Iraq is a free and democratic country, such pilgramages are welcome.

    Thus, there have been huge crowds of Iranians coming to Iraq the past two years. These people have seen the great strides made in Iraq, not only the freedom to worshop as they please but also saw what capitalism has done.

    Most reports said that there were ample supplies of fresh foods, religious artifacts, and souvenirs. This had to have a strong impact on Iranians. They were coming from what should be an oil rich country that is instead an economic basket case and visiting a war-torn country that they were told was devastated. Instead they saw a free and vibrant people with a strong economy. That had to have major psychological impacts on the masses.

    They have witnessed millions of joyous Iraqis holding up purple fingers and thought, “why not us?”

    They have seen the government change hands not by revolution nor coup but by free elections and have asked “why not us?

    They have seen a people come together and jump start a vibrant economy and asked “why not us?”

    The women of Iran have seen the women of Iraq throw off the shakles of religious extremism and become major participents in a free society and asked “why not us?”

    Iranians have realized what potential their country holds because they have seen it in Iraq and are now stating with conviction “It is our turn now!”

    Yes, the contagions known as democracy, liberty, and capitalism have been unleashed on the Middle East with pandemic results.

    In short, Bush was Right!!!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-z2D9lo9-8

    .

  41. thewiz, interesting comment. I believe that the changes in Iraq, though there is still violence, are such an improvement over what was there before, that it could certainly have a strong impact on Iran. I heard from a lovely friend from Iran and she told me that the silent marches and protests are very powerful, but it remains extremely dangerous there. Young people are being killed in the streets and in their dorm rooms.

  42. Where IS sandmonkey?

  43. Valerie & Craig,

    It doesn’t matter what the United States does or does not do, for Mr. Khamenei and his lackeys will always accuse America of meddling whether it does so or not. Mr. Khamenei and his lackeys make it a policy to blame America for every problem under the sun as a pretext to advocate the complete and total obliteration of the American people. The Iranian government routinely condemns all Americans to genocide and it’s regarded as background noise, but if the United States says only a few peeps of protest about the latest Iranian tyranny, it is called “meddling”.

    It wouldn’t surprise me if the Iranian government started an all-out war against the United States, using as a pretext a canard that all those demonstrations were orchestrated by American intelligence. Anybody with even half a brain would realize that recent mass demonstrations in Iran have been at least as much of a surprise to Americans, including American political leaders and intelligence analysts, as anybody else. That doesn’t stop Mr. Khamenei and his lackeys, of course, for they would blame America for absolutely everything including winter snowstorms.

    For Mr. Khamenei and his ilk, worshipping Allah is nowhere near as important as turning hatred against America into Iran’s state religion. Perhaps they think they need someone to demonize because they don’t like what they see in the mirror.

  44. Alexis, I agree; the turmoil in Iran is, I believe, a huge surprise to everyone outside of Iran. Certainly in the US.
    According to reliable reports from students in Iran, Hezbollah is there, quelling protests, and is responsible for killing students and other protesters. The violence against the peaceful protesters and university students is sickening.

  45. I meant to add: There are some direct communications coming out of Iran from students on gnblog.com, the Good Neighbors blog in the Middle East.

  46. Marie Claude says:

    wanna want to see Zahra Rahnavard stomping the american ,UK, Israel , flags ?

    try to get a pic of her from the net, you’ll see that the sites that are talking of that are out of order or can’t be opened.

    Got one though, through Iran/Resist

    Musavi or Ahmadinejad, same combat, islamism !

    http://bokedou-an-hanv.blogspot.com/2009/06/zahra-rahnavard-musavis-egery.html

    Now I hope that the people who really want a change there will not harshly pay their manifestations, cause their messages are cleverly twisted by certain disguised mullahs agents

  47. Sand Ape says:

    Tell me of one government that has anything close to a 100% approval rate from its people. All governments are corrupt. Having said that, I feel that when it comes to the Iranian elections, a lot of the Western governments , including Israel, as well as the wanna be Arab states that support western policies now a days, should all shut the fuck up.

    Most of all, the U.S. government needs to keep silent because of 1953. That was the year the CIA — that model of openness and commitment to democracy — drove an elected, secular Iranian prime minister from office in order to restore to power the brutal monarch, Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi (who gave oil). For the next quarter century, the shah ruled with an iron fist — secret police, torture, the works.”

    You reap what you so.

  48. Sand Ape says:

    Wanting to trade one dictator for another is retarded. Demonstrating in the streets about not being able to have the dictator of your choice is even more retarded. All the candidates have ties to the Ayatollahs, so what’s the difference? Its all a power struggle from within the ruling elite.

    Anyways now the supreme leader has spoken and said the elections were fair and square and is willing to die in order to restore order to the IRA. Adding there will be consequaences if they don’t stop.

    The man has spoken, case closed!

  49. New Israel says:

    It’s true, there is liberty in Israel, but only for us, the Jews. We have a regime that is no less tyrannical than the ayatollahs’ regime: the regime of the officers and the settlers in the territories. But what do we have to do with any of this? In Iran, police disperse demonstrations with violence, they shoot and kill. And what do we do?

    When you get a chance, go on Friday to Na’alin or Bil’in and see what happens there. Demonstrators are killed here with similar brutality, but in Iran the crowd is standing up to a tyrannical regime, while here only a handful of brave people stand up to the Border Police, who are firing weapons. Moreover, we hardly write anything about the protest being silenced with bullets. It interests no one, and this, too, is called democracy.

  50. Sand Ape says:

    New Israel,

    What else is new?

  51. If Mr. Khamenei and his agents truly want other people to shut up, they could lead by example!

  52. EgyPeter,

    I can appreciate your attempt to defend your friend Carpet-Head, the obvious hypocrite who is going through a severe identity crisis. Trying to lessen his pain after getting caught in his own lies is very noble of you. Do you think it worked, I highly doubt it, so poor him.

    But don’t be foolish and talk trash. I thought you may be smarter than that. Your zeal for your Coptic roots can be commended. But not when it turns into detrimental irony.

    For one, the Hep C virus needs a live host in order to survive, so claiming it is spread by the Nile is not very intelligent.

    Why won’t you face the facts? A large part of the Coptic community are living in squalor, in sub human conditions and need help to change. No thanks to people like you who are denying the problem even exists.

    Just like your comment that Copts are not Arabs. Isn’t Boutos Ghali a Copt, wasn’t he a member of the Central Committee of the “Arab” Socialist Union of Egypt from 1974 to 1977? Therefore he is an Arab.

    He served as Egypt’s Minister of State for Foreign Affairs from 1977 until early 1991. Pledging to serve the “ARAB” Republic of Egypt, taking his oath of office on the Injil, Coptic bible. So go figure?

    Christians and Copts integrated with Arabs centuries ago. Many Copts gave their lives in the wars against Israel, as Jordanian and Syrian Christians did. Fighting side by side with their Muslim brothers, like true Arab hero’s. Good luck telling their families that they were not true Arabs because of their faith.

    Your ideology sounds painfully familiar to Hamas’ ideology of intolerance.

    Many Copts can only speak Arabic and worship in Arabic, taking pride that the Coptic church integrated and supplanted Arabic into the faith. The number of people who can speak Coptic today only reaches about 300, which is mainly the liturgical language of the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria. Yet the 8 million Copts in Egypt alone, who don’t speak Coptic, still have identities and rights and consider themselves proud Arabs. I am one of those people. Just like the many Copts throughout Africa who have national identities in their respective indigenous countries.

    Many Arab civilizations have Christians who were there before the spread of Islam, yet are fully integrated. Look at Lebanon for Christ’s sake. Copts have a history based on faith, not nationality. Just like the Palestinians have their own identity but don’t have a nation, because they refused to integrate with their oppressors. Many Egyptians spoke Coptic during the height of the Coptic Church in Egypt yet weren’t Christians.

    Why are you trying to isolate us and take away our identity with your bitterness and non sense? How can you expect us to ever get our rights if people like you subscribe to such a radical anti social ideology? Why are you so arrogant? What are you trying to do, start the Coptic equivalent of Hamas?

  53. Sand Ape says:

    Nabil,

    Nice points, thanks for agreeing with many of my views, especially on the health crisis.

    But take it easy on Peter, he is just a proud Coptic American who feels that Copts aren’t getting equal rights as citizens in their homeland. Just like the many Kurds scattered throughout the world who have historical roots in countries such as Iraq, Turkey and Iran. Who are treated as second class citizens. Some simply refer to themselves as Kurds although they hold passports of these countries. While some say they are the original inhabitants of these lands and therefore more Iraqi, Iranian and Turkish then their country folk. I am sure you’re aware of this.

    I agree with a lot of your other points, especially about unity and integration. But you unseemingly contradicted yourself when you compared Copts to Palestinians – saying that Copts integrated but Palestinians didn’t, due to being oppressed. Oppression is the key word here, since Copts did in fact successfully integrate, giving their lives in many wars. This is all the more reason they are to be treated as equals in THEIR homeland.

    The problem is not Islam, but the secular tyrannical regime that is too busy trying to hold on to power. Which can’t be bothered with a mere 10% of the population while they are busy trying to appease and block the Muslim brotherhood. In the Caliphate era and during the days of the monarch, these were the some of golden ages for Copts in Egypt.

    Mubarak equals oppression of Copts ,because he is too busy trying to hold onto power. If he was a man, he would put his foot down without hurting it. Thank god Copts haven’t resorted to terrorism. because love thine enemy remember.

    LMAO @ “A Coptic Branch of Hamas!” to fight Mubarak.

  54. Marie Claude says:
  55. Craig I was talking about the American government, not the American people so don’t take it personal. And since when did the Ayatollah victimize foreign people? And who’s talking about osama bin laden? You’re taking things personal, I was just reminding you that the American government wants whats good for it in the Middle East, and history proves whats good for it is not whats good for Iran or any other country. Remember when the American government backed Iraq against Iran and killed how many Iranian soldiers? Do you really want to go down memory lane? That is just fact, Americans don’t do things in the world because they feel like its “honorable”, they act because its for their benefit and that is understandable. So their support for this Moussavi right away tells me he’s no good.
    This rally against Ahmadinejad consists of western-washed Iranians and atheists and so they have a good reason to hate Islam and the regime. This might not mean nothing to you since any enemy to the Islamic regime that you hate so much is a friend but we all must realize that the western extreme is just as bad as the religious extreme. I don’t think having a shiite pope as your supreme leader is a good idea and enforcing religion is just compulsion, but I can’t support this rally because these people have totally betrayed themselves. They spit on their own religion, traditions, and culture. They want to make Iran another Jordan. Another westernized country with an American-backed president, and that won’t take Iran anywhere as it has not taken Jordan anywhere. All it does is ensure America doesn’t sanction you. How can this be moderate? Trust me these type of Iranians I know well, they are not moderate, their all way to the left. You can find them everywhere, in the US, Canada, and they make good one night stands I can tell you that from experience. They are the real force behind these rallies and they have even more hate for themselves than Ahmadinejad has hate for Israel.

  56. It is noteworthy how Mr. Khamenei referenced the deaths of Branch Davidians in his Friday sermon. It was terrible what happened to the Branch Davidians; they were Americans and their deaths should not have happened. Mr. Khamenei and his regime prayed for those deaths. The Branch Davidians were (and the survivors are) part of America, so the Iranian regime got part of its wish for America to get obliterated when the Branch Davidian compound burned down. Be careful what you ask for lest you get it.

    If the Iranian regime were only against some Americans or the CIA, it could have made that clear. Instead, its hatred was and is aimed at all Americans without exception. Its prayers chanted every Friday make that abundantly clear. Its false portrayal of America has been warmed over Sayed Kotb, which is itself warmed over Charles Maurras (who was the ideologue of a French ultra-nationalist group called Action Française). Sadly, this borrowed ideological trend portrays Islam as a hopelessly parochial religion. This is unfortunate not only for Islam, but also for civilization itself.

    I think there are many vested interests that wish to foster a false dichotomy between the stereotypical devout Muslim who desires to kill Americans and the stereotypical secular Muslim who desires to get drunk. It’s a false choice. Rejecting everything American would be just as stupid as rejecting baklava or ma’amoul merely because Arabs like them. I regard it as insane how the Shah’s regime tried to force Iranians to eat “American” style bread instead of their own traditional bread; I dislike “Sweetheart” bread myself and vastly prefer “Arab bread”. On the other hand, America generally does politics better than most of the Middle East. Granted, the United States government should never have let itself get blackmailed by the Shah (and that’s exactly what happened, for all those history buffs out there).

    Americans have every right to favor the overthrow of Iran’s regime, but its overthrow would do Iranians far more good than it would do America. If anything, the Iranian government’s overthrow would likely spark an Iranian cultural renaissance. This is principally because the present Iranian government has lavished so much attention upon the United States that it has inadvertently promoted American culture within Iran. Moreover, the overthrow of the present regime would likely cause an upsurge of interest in Iranian culture from the outside world (including America).

    Those who are proud of at least some aspects of Middle Eastern culture (at least the food and the music) ought to welcome a respite from the attention lavished upon American culture by the Iranian regime and other regimes like it.

    The present revolution in Iran isn’t about what kind of bread to bake. It isn’t about headscarves. It isn’t even about America. It’s about Iran’s future. Let’s remember that.

  57. Nour, I don’t believe that Americans (meaning the CIA or military) are involved in any way. Saying so is a disservice to the people of Iran who are risking their lives to ask for change. These are the educated Iranians who have excellent critical thinking skills and to say that they are being manipulated by the far away US is disrespectful to their sacrifices and struggles. There is interference in Iran and its from Hamas and Hezbollah, according to some of the reports coming out directly from the students and protesters in Iran.

  58. Marie Claude says:

    http://bokedou-an-hanv.blogspot.com/2009/06/zahra-rahnavard-musavis-egery.html

    can anyone translate what is written on the pic, especcially in Farsi ?

    I was told that that means :

    “Condoléances cher Mahdi, Condoléances cher Mahdi”

    mahdi : imam caché

    and if so, why such slogans for the occurence of the manifestation,

    “that doesn’t seem to make sense with the other sign or with what she is doing”

  59. Marie Claude says:

    the other sign in english :

    ” Secret Misison of the US is too Divide to the Muslims”

    can anyone explain the association of the both slogans ?

  60. Marie Claude says:

    Alexis, Charles Maurras ideas are also endorsed by the christian conservative Americans

  61. EgyPeter says:

    Nabil – Do you even know what the term ‘Coptic’ means?? When I say ‘Copts are not Arab’ I’m saying that Sunni Muslim and Orthodox Christian Egyptians are equally and unequivocally not Arab but Coptic (meaning Egyptian). This entire matter has very little to nothing to do with religion, you do realize that.

    Now, for the rest of your errors…

    “For one, the Hep C virus needs a live host in order to survive, so claiming it is spread by the Nile is not very intelligent. ”

    In Egypt, the major route of exposure appears to be due to medical therapy and inadequate sterilization techniques and supplies. In addition to blood transfusions prior to 1994, the major risk factor associated with HCV infection is a history of antischistosomal injection treatment. Schistosomiasis is a common parasitic disease in Egypt acquired through swimming or wading in contaminated irrigation channels or standing water. Thus, farmers and rural populations are at greatest risk, and this is supported by the higher prevalence rate of HCV in the Nile delta and rural areas.

    http://www.hcvadvocate.org/hepatitis/hepC/Wakil-1.html

    “Why won’t you face the facts? A large part of the Coptic community are living in squalor, in sub human conditions and need help to change. No thanks to people like you who are denying the problem even exists.”

    Thank you for your ‘concern’ but what the hell are you talking about??! I assume you’re referring to the Zabaleen. And I surely do not deny that major problems do not exist. You’re not an imbecile, are you? I think you’re laughably mistaken when you say that the Zabaleen community – God bless their souls – represents a “large part of the Coptic community.” That’s not right.

    “Just like your comment that Copts are not Arabs. Isn’t Boutos Ghali a Copt, wasn’t he a member of the Central Committee of the “Arab” Socialist Union of Egypt from 1974 to 1977? Therefore he is an Arab.

    He served as Egypt’s Minister of State for Foreign Affairs from 1977 until early 1991. Pledging to serve the “ARAB” Republic of Egypt, taking his oath of office on the Injil, Coptic bible. So go figure?”

    This has gotta be some of the stupider shit you wrote. Not sure where to begin? What the hell does Boutros Ghali being a former Prime Minister have anything to do with anything? You think that changes anything? Just because that worthless pile of shit Abdel Nasser shoved the “Arab Republic” down Egypt’s throat that makes Boutros Ghali, and subsequently the rest of Egypt ‘Arab??’ You’re not that simple are you? And what is a Coptic Bible?? Huh? There’s a fat chance you are who you say you are…lol. You just threw your cards on the table with that one :)

    “Why are you trying to isolate us and take away our identity with your bitterness and non sense? How can you expect us to ever get our rights if people like you subscribe to such a radical anti social ideology? Why are you so arrogant? What are you trying to do, start the Coptic equivalent of Hamas?”

    That’s all just gibberish. No need to say much. “Isolate,” “Coptic Hamas,” “radical social ideology” blah blah blah.

    Get a clue and go pick up a book. Preferably one NOT written in Arabic.

  62. Nour,

    Craig I was talking about the American government, not the American people so don’t take it personal.

    So you are referring to the US government as “haters”? That’s just silly. Especially with Obama in office.

    And since when did the Ayatollah victimize foreign people?

    Are you even serious? I’m not going to dignify that with a response.

    And who’s talking about osama bin laden?

    You are, when you bring “hate” against Islam into the discussion.

    You’re taking things personal…

    There isn’t much more “personal” than violence, Nour.

    I was just reminding you that the American government wants whats good for it in the Middle East, and history proves whats good for it is not whats good for Iran or any other country.

    The American government wants to protect the American people from violent Islamic radicals, which is something I fully support. If you think violent Islamic radicals are good for the middle east, then to hell with you. And if you don’t, then what is the problem?

    Remember when the American government backed Iraq against Iran and killed how many Iranian soldiers?

    So? Saddam wanted peace in 1981, but Iran decided not to end the fighting. That’s on Iran, not on the US. Was it wrong for the US to try to prevent Iran from defeating Iraq? Not in my opinion.

    Do you really want to go down memory lane?

    Yes, lets. But not until you get honest about violence the Islamic Republic has committed and/or sponsored against innocent foreigners. because if you won’t be truthful about even something as obvious as that, there isn’t much point in discussion.

    That is just fact, Americans don’t do things in the world because they feel like its “honorable”, they act because its for their benefit and that is understandable.

    Yes, killing mass murdering criminals is in the best interest of the United States. And it also honorable. Both. It’s a win/win, don’t you agree? Or do you prefer to have mass murdering criminals alive and free, to commit even more atrocities?

    So their support for this Moussavi right away tells me he’s no good.

    Well, we agree on something. Mousavi is no friend of the US, and he’s no better for America than Ahmadinejad is.

    This rally against Ahmadinejad consists of western-washed Iranians and atheists and so they have a good reason to hate Islam and the regime.

    Nonsense. It’s a penis measuring contest between Rafsanjani and Khamanei. I’m hoping it gets out of the control of both factions, and that something truly good comes out of it. Because if there’s just a swap of Islamic Republic old-guard at the top of the power structure, it’s all been for nothing.

    This might not mean nothing to you since any enemy to the Islamic regime that you hate so much is a friend…

    Are you claiming Rafsanjani, Mousavi and half the mullahs in Iran are enemies of the Islamic Republic? lol. They ARE the Islamic Republic.

    … but we all must realize that the western extreme is just as bad as the religious extreme.

    That’s just silly.

    They want to make Iran another Jordan. Another westernized country with an American-backed president, and that won’t take Iran anywhere as it has not taken Jordan anywhere.

    Iran was America’s closest ally in the middle-east before 1979. A closer ally than Jordan will ever be. In other words, not only was Iran “Jordan” before Jordan was, Iran was a better (and richer) “Jordan” than Jordan was. And free bonus: Iranians aren’t even Arabs. So I think it’s EXTREMELY unlikely that these power players in the Islamic Revolution want to go back to the way things were before the Revolution they themselves fought. So, again, this is just silly.

  63. Marie Claude says:

    attention

    Sandmonkey found out that the baby picture was taken out of this Pal video

    http://bit.ly/SHZof

    that the Iran-Resist site owner (pro Reza Pahlavi) set in his site

    and that I used to trust

  64. Marie Claude

    Second sentence means that US wants do divide shia and sunni, i am not sure about first – it could probably refer to death of Hussein (they chant it on Ashura and often on other occasions).
    But the whole site is not very reliable, there is link to al manar site and al manar site is a lebanese Hezbullah TV and web site. Naturally they would not support removal of Ahmadinejad because they would get less money from Iran so they articles would not be supportive of anyone going against the government of Ahmadinejad. There is also a link to stratfor article and the guy who wrote is not specialist on Iran.
    So I believe you would do much better following even Andrew Sulivan in the atlantic

  65. Marie Claude says:

    Ella I bet you know better than specialists, be them a report from Al Munar LMAO

    these aren’t my opinion but different reports on the iranian political spectrum

    So far the persons that write in “stratfor” and or “Politico” are reliable, since most of the professional political commenters refer to them

    and BTW, when someone tells me, like Sandmonkey, that I got an erroned info, he brings a proof, what about yours ?

    your self elucubrations ?

  66. Of all the people in this thread, MC, it seems like you are the one jumping to conclusions and trying to influence everyone else’s thinking. Why jump down ella’s throat? You asked for a translation and she was trying to help you with that.

  67. “So you are referring to the US government as “haters”? That’s just silly. Especially with Obama in office.”

    No I am just saying me and a lot of Middle Easterners just don’t trust anybody backed by America. America backs governments that do what it wants and that benefit it regardless of what type of government it is. Look at the countries America has backed in the Middle East like Jordan and Saudi Arabia, and look at the history of the government in those countries. Thats why when I got the impression that Moussavi is backed by America (CNN), I couldn’t trust him. But since he is Rafsanjani’s puppet, then why is sandmonkey the “libertarian” supporting him, and why is he being hailed on CNN? Anything to get rid of Ahamdinejad?

    “Are you even serious? I’m not going to dignify that with a response.”
    I seriously don’t know of any events that the ayatollah victimized foreign people. Except with his fatwa on that Indian guy with the fake qur’an, I guess. And I’m being honest, I really don’t know when the Islamic republic was violent to foreigners. Enlighten me, unless you’re talking about rumours.

    And no trust me, the western extreme is just as bad as the religious extreme, especially to a cultured Middle Easterner. Didn’t the shah prove that?

    “Yes, killing mass murdering criminals is in the best interest of the United States. And it also honorable. Both. It’s a win/win, don’t you agree? Or do you prefer to have mass murdering criminals alive and free, to commit even more atrocities?”

    Since when did America kill mass murdering criminals? Are you talking about the Afghans? Or the millions of Iraqi civilians? Or maybe you’re talking about the Palestinians it kills when it arms Israel every year. Since when were they mass murdering criminals? I don’t know tell me. Who are these mass murdering criminals? Bin Laden is still alive I believe.

    “The American government wants to protect the American people from violent Islamic radicals, which is something I fully support. If you think violent Islamic radicals are good for the middle east, then to hell with you. And if you don’t, then what is the problem?”

    Wow, common. Thats a page out of Bush’s speech haha, the war on terror!. Killing violent Islamic boogeyman is the pretext. Think about it, the most powerful country in the world vs. a bunch of raggedy mountain guys with old ak 47s? You’re better off waging a war on the crips. No whenever America and benefit are in the same sentence, you have to think money. Its Bush that still got you thinking Islamic radicals.

  68. Marie Claude says:

    Craig I bet she was, but it doesn’t disturb me that you have no empathy for me

  69. Nour,

    No I am just saying me and a lot of Middle Easterners just don’t trust…

    No, what you said is that anybody who didn’t like Ahmadinejad was hated Islam.

    That’s what you said. That’s what I responded to. If you want to have a different discussion that’s fine, but lets try resolving the one we were in the middle of, first.

    I seriously don’t know of any events that the ayatollah victimized foreign people.

    Really? You never heard of the hostage crisis? lol. I suppose it would be pointless to get into more obscure incidents, when that one which is so well known and which is what caused the rift between Iran and the US in the first place, is something you never even heard of.

    Since when did America kill mass murdering criminals?

    US killed the fuck out of Zarqawi, right? If we can find Osama he’ll be a dead son of a bitch too. I don’t know who popped Imad Mugniyah, but it was a job well done. We’ve killed the number 3 man in Al Qaida at least 500 times, and I have no idea where they find Arabs stupid enough to take that job anymore. We could fill a lot of graveyards with the bodies of mass murdering terrorists who’ve been done in the last 8 years. You probably think that just causes more terrorists. that’s fine. Make more, and we’ll kill them too.

    Or maybe you’re talking about…

    I’m talking about what I’m talking about. If you want to editorialize about being a victim, do it on your own time. Don’t present your essays on victim status as replies to what I said. I’m not talking about you and yours, I’m talking about me and mine.

    Thats a page out of Bush’s speech haha, the war on terror!. Killing violent Islamic boogeyman is the pretext.

    *yawn*

    Think about it, the most powerful country in the world vs. a bunch of raggedy mountain guys with old ak 47s? You’re better off waging a war on the crips. No whenever America and benefit are in the same sentence, you have to think money. Its Bush that still got you thinking Islamic radicals.

    Bullshit. It’s Islamic radicals who got me thinking of Islamic radicals. And it happened long before Bush was President. I’m not alone in that, either. If you know a damn thing about the US you’d know just how fed up we are with Islamic terrorists. You must be some kind of retard to think Americans can be systematically victimized by Muslim terrorists over a period of more than 30 years, and we won’t mind. Do you really believe Arabs are the only one who hold grudges, and have long memories?

  70. Craig I bet she was, but it doesn’t disturb me that you have no empathy for me

    I have no idea what the context is for that, MC. Try this:

    http://shooresh1917.blogspot.com/

    I got it from the twitter of an Iranian blogger I trust a lot, so I trust that site more than most! If you are just going to repeat what the pundits say, you may as well just quote from Obama’s statements, because he’s being advised by all the most expert “Iran” pundits.

  71. Marie Claude says:

    thanks, I see his videos on Twitter too

    “just going to repeat what the pundits say”

    did I repeat sumthin, but put the links of pundits that have a bit more understanding of the situation than us ? all isn’t what are are told, and we ought to go to different sources to make our opinion

    I still remember that some of these people were saying “death to sarkozy” not so long time ago too

  72. Still no Sandmonkey! Cripes. Useless.

  73. Marie Claude says:

    the baby pic has been removed of the site following my mail to the owners

  74. Thank you EgyPeter for directly proving my point with your attempt of rebuttal. Before I get started, you genius, the Coptic Bible means a bible written in Coptic text, before there was any Arabic. Duuuh!!

    The article you quoted is very factual indeed and gives no reference what so ever to your claim that Hep C comes from the Nile..

    Quoting the article: ”

    It is spread due to medical therapy and inadequate sterilization techniques and supplies. In addition to blood transfusions prior to 1994, the major risk factor associated with HCV infection is a history of antischistosomal injection treatment. Farmers and rural populations are at greatest risk, and this is supported by the higher prevalence rate of HCV in the Nile delta and rural areas.”

    Also your claim that all Egypt has it, is quite false. Less than 20% have it, but that’s still a lot.

    IT ABSOLUTELY SAYS NOTHING ABOUT PEOPLE GETTING HCV DIRECTLY FROM THE NILE IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM. SO STILL NOT VERY INTELLIGENT OF YOU I AM AFRAID.

    Maybe it’s better you remain far away from Arab culture and don’t try and integrate. Arabs have enough ignorance already.

  75. Sand Ape says:

    Unlike many of his reformist allies, Mr Rafsanjani holds two important state positions as the head of both the Expediency Council and the Experts Assembly, which has a constitutional responsibility to supervise the supreme leader.

    Various reports and rumors are swirling that Mr Rafsanjani is in Qom trying to co-ordinate clerical opposition to Ahmadinejad, or even that he plans to call an extraordinary meeting of the Experts Assembly.

    A reformist journalist once compared the relationship between Ayatollah Khamenei and Mr Rafsanjani to a married couple who quarreled but could not live apart.

    I start to wonder if either party might now be thinking of divorce.

    Rafsanjani is responsible for the violence going on now.

    Even among Iranians dedicated to the principles of the Islamic Republic, many now see their country essentially as a police state, recognizing that Ahmadinejad and the ruling clerics are little more than corrupt self-interested politicians who have manipulated their people’s religious faith for the sake of their own power.

    However strong their opposition to the current regime, the democratic and reformist opposition simply does not trust the United States, which overthrew Iran’s last democratic government in 1953, armed and trained the Shah’s brutal security apparatus, backed Saddam Hussein in his bloody war against their country, imposed strict economic sanctions on their country, and has hypocritically obsessed about their civilian nuclear program while supporting such neighboring states as Israel, Pakistan and India despite their developing nuclear arsenals.”

    Iran’s democratically elected secular governemnt was overthrown with the help of the Americans, because that regime didn’t give the US and were sunsequently branded communists. Obama admitted that America had done this.

    Its all a big facade, that unfortunately even Obama can’t clean up.

  76. However strong their opposition to the current regime, the democratic and reformist opposition simply does not trust the United States…

    And that’s totally irrelevant. Nothing that is happening is because of the US.

    Anyway, it seems like its getting very ugly now so I’m just going to hope it works out for the best.

  77. “Wanting to trade one dictator for another is retarded. Demonstrating in the streets about not being able to have the dictator of your choice is even more retarded. All the candidates have ties to the Ayatollahs, so what’s the difference? Its all a power struggle from within the ruling elite.”

    The people vs. the power would have no chance. This is the best first step.

  78. OMG Peter, did you actually say –

    “When I say ‘Copts are not Arab’ I’m saying that Sunni Muslim and Orthodox Christian Egyptians are equally and unequivocally not Arab but Coptic (meaning Egyptian)”

    How are you going to explain that Sunni Muslims are not Arabs either?

  79. Marie Claude

    Stop being childlish. You think you know better because you have read the guy in Stratfor and a guy quoting Hizubllah site – fine.
    There is calm in Iran right now, you say …….fine,
    Satisfied? Fine
    Next time stop asking other people for their opinions when you only want them to confirm opinions you already have.

  80. Marie Claude
    And one more thing for consideration regarding your statement that “pundits have a bit more understanding of the situation than us” – these pundits you are talking about in 2005 did not predict that Ahmadinejad would not be a president [in fact they were all surprised] and they all thought that al Manar patrons – Hizbullah- will win lebanese elections couple of days ago.[majority of them was surprised at their losing the votes]
    WOW for the pundits.

  81. read: “ahmadinejad would be a president” i/o “would not be a president.”

  82. How are you going to explain that Sunni Muslims are not Arabs either?

    Are you claiming all Sunni Muslims are Arabs? lol.

  83. Roman Kalik says:

    How are you going to explain that Sunni Muslims are not Arabs either?

    Conversion? There are more non-Arab Sunnis than Arab Sunnis across the world. Becoming Muslim did not miraculously change their genes.

  84. Is it just me, or does Aljazeera seems very pro ahmadi with its reports lately? Why is that? Is he paying their bills or something?

  85. EgyPeter says:

    Nabil – Egypt’s Sunni Muslims are not descendant from Arabs in Arabia!! Egypt’s Sunni Muslims are descendant from EGYPTIANS!! In other words, Egypt’s Muslims are descendant from….drum roll please…Egyptian Christians – meaning, at some point their ancestors converted along the line.

    How come people (especially freaking Egyptians) don’t know this???????

    Nabil, don’t try and match wits with me. You’ll lose. Badly.

  86. EgyPeter says:

    Are Turkey’s Sunni Muslims Arab too? What about Indonesia’s and Malaysia’s? All ‘Arab?’

  87. EgyPeter,

    You say: “Nabil, don’t try and match wits with me. You’ll lose. Badly.”

    Oh really EgyPeter, well you’re ON!

    In fact you already lost!!!

    What about your witless barking about the entire Egyptian populace getting HCV from the Nile, huh, what about that unintelligent statement Mr wits ha ha?

    At least save face and admit that you were wrong!

    Quoting your words from the article:

    “It is spread due to medical therapy and inadequate sterilization techniques and supplies. In addition to blood transfusions prior to 1994, the major risk factor associated with HCV infection is a history of antischistosomal injection treatment. Farmers and rural populations are at greatest risk, and this is supported by the higher prevalence rate of HCV in the Nile delta and rural areas.”

    Also your claim that all Egypt has it, is quite false as well. Less than 20% have it, although that’s still a lot.

    IT ABSOLUTELY SAYS NOTHING ABOUT PEOPLE GETTING HCV DIRECTLY FROM THE NILE IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM. SO STILL NOT VERY INTELLIGENT OF YOU I AM AFRAID.

    Maybe it’s better you remain far away from Arab culture and don’t try and integrate. Arabs have enough ignorance already.

    You could never match wits with me. You lost before you even openned that cut under your nose called a mouth, foaming heavily for insulting the carpet salesman.

    There are only two ways to go now.

    1 – Admit that you were wrong.

    2 – Keep being ignorant.

    Let’s see how much of a man you will be!!!??

    I dare you!!

  88. EgyPeter says:

    I never said the entire population of Egypt has Hep C you dimwit!! But Egypt DOES have the world’s highest prevalence of it. And the Nile is a huge part of it.

    Who’s the ignoramus that said:

    “How are you going to explain that Sunni Muslims are not Arabs either?”

    It wasn’t me, Nabil.

    And I am far away from ‘Arab’ culture. THANK GOD! I want and have nothing to do with Arabism and all of its related retardness.

  89. You just couldn’t admit you were wrong could you?

    First of all, I admit that not all Sunni’s are Arab. I have no problem with that. But since the topic was about whether the Egyptian population is now Arab, Copts included, i was wondering how you could explain Egyptian Arab Sunni’s not being Arab.

    BTW you did say the entire population of Egypt has it, you are quoted saying in comment # 31:

    “And it’s ALL of Egypt that has Hep C you dumbass. And it comes from the Nile not refuse you ignorant shit.”

    Can you even read buddy? So quite lying and give it up already…..LMAO!

  90. “Can you even read buddy? So quite lying and give it up already”

    Hey, Nabil, didn’t you mean “quit”?

    Who’s the dumb ass non reader now? LMAO!!

  91. Roman Kalik says:

    “And it’s ALL of Egypt that has Hep C you dumbass. And it comes from the Nile not refuse you ignorant shit.”

    Can you even read buddy? So quite lying and give it up already…..LMAO!

    Nabil, EgyPeter was saying, in response to you impying that HCV in Egypt was a matter of “…slum dwellers who live like vermin. …the ones who spread Hep C by repackaging contaminated needles.”

    Now, on the one hand you correctly identified one of causes of HCV’s spread – blood. But that applies to any other blood-borne disease, and it’s HCV (rather than more widespread blood-borne diseases, such as HIV) that is widespread in Egypt, with many regions having 1 in every 5 people as infected.

    The problem with what you said can be easily taken as to say that HCV is caused by people living in refuse, which isn’t true.

    Now, you’ve taken EgyPeter’s reference to the Nile at face value – thus you (correctly) attack what you see as erroneously saying that a blood-borne disease is being spread by contaminated water. From the wording of his original reply regarding HCV, this is understandable – it does read as him taking the Nile as the direct cause.

    The article he later brings clarifies that it was not the Nile as much as bad medical treatment, which applied more often to people living next to the Nile due to it being a hotbed for Schistosomiasis. Thus, people who live in the Nile Delta *are* much more likely to have HCV, just not directly due to the Nile but rather due to horrible mistreatment of Schistosomiasis.

    The more direct cause is human error: http://www2.hawaii.edu/~dewolfe/p.html

    Or to be blunt, many people in Egypt who call themselves doctors don’t know even the basics of the medical profession, and most everyone else (particularly people living in rural areas) are completely ignorant of how to prevent the spread of HCV.

    Now, neither of you wrote very clearly on what your actual views on HCV were, thus it’s quite possible that you ended up attacking not the other view as much as what you *thought* was the other view. Your original insults at the start of the topic weren’t quite helpful at facilitating an actual discussion, either.

  92. @ 85 Nadavu

    Ahmadinejad did pay a lot of Hamas and Hizbullah bills, so many ,in fact, that some Iranians were angry about it.
    Hamas took its beginning from Muslim Brotherhood, some say it is a branch of Muslim Brotherhood in Gaza.
    A lot of people in al Jazeera are connected with Muslim Brotherhood.
    What’s more, one of the main theme, (some say the main theme) of Al Jazeera is Gaza, Hamas, Palestinians and their fight against “Zionist Israel”. Ahmadi is supporting that fight.
    Naturally al Jazeera would be cheering for Ahmadi Nejad.

  93. add to 93 above

    Al jazeera also knows that if there would be a change in the government of Iran Hamas and Hizbullah will get less money than before, less munitions and this money will be spend for Iranians.
    Of course overt Iranian support for palestinians will not change but there would be less covert support and less “in your face” statement from the government.

  94. An official statement from the IRGC, it seems:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8112812.stm

    “The Guards will firmly confront in a revolutionary way rioters and those who violate the law,” they added.

    Did they just say that they would confront revolutionaries in a revolutionary way? I think I just lost a few thousand brain cells trying to puzzle that out :(

  95. Seems the Iranian mullahs are gaining the upper hand. They have increased the violence and are starting to regain control.

    My advice to the freedom loving people of Iran is to change tatics. They have been demonstrating in the streets where they are easy targets and can be easily photographed, identified and later arrested. Like Tiannamen Square, it is a disaster waiting to unfold.

    They need to folow the example of the Polish Solidarnosc movement and take to the factories, the oil fields, the refineries, and the seaports. Imbed themselves in the very structures that make the economy run. The mad mullahas then cannot attack them without destroying the very structures that keep them in power.

    Perhaps the best tatic, if possible, would be to take over the nuclear research centers, the very crown jewels of the mad mullahs. Chain themselves to the centrifuges, the electrical units that drive them, and all other parts of the program. Ahmedinajob will not risk destroying his favorite toys.

    Otherwise, I fear that the regime will just slaughter all that stand against it and become even more belicose as a result.

  96. Otherwise, I fear that the regime will just slaughter all that stand against it and become even more belicose as a result.

    I read someplace a few years ago that there are about 10 million members of the Basij militia. That’s a hell of a large percentage of the population which is armed/organized and fanatically loyal to the regime. I don’t have a clue how that can be dealt with. Even the military switching sides would not be enough, because these folks operate like a huge street gang.

  97. Marie Claude says:

    Ella, as far as I can remember you on that board you have always wanted to give me lessons, the persons who plays the mistress here was/is still YOU

    I found it funny that an Iranian told you that you have no clue on another blog LMAO

  98. marie claude,
    It seems that projection is very popular among some people.
    And btw which blog do you refer to Marie Claude? As far as I know no Iranian on any blog told me that.
    Furthermore if your were following any Iranian blog you would have opportunity to ask Iranians the same question you asked here. Why you did not do there,on the blogs you seemingly read, MC? Because shy you are not.

  99. Marie Claude says:

    oola, mistress wants to have her argument WTF LMAO

    I’m not your pupil, got better sources

  100. Marie Claude says:

    39. Saahle Manesh:

    ella;
    Tudeh is part of it: Mousavi is pro-Tudeh and was in the 80s too- Tudeh is really a British party. Soviets and Brits followed pretty much the same policy in Iran in those days(both anti-US hegemony.)
    If you don’t agree, or want to resort to MSM labeling of things, that’s OK– your opinion does not diminish from the facts. We all learn as we go.
    From your blogs above, you are willing to settle for Mousavi and another form of IRI, and you call that progress: you want to settle for the same frigging pig but with lipstick on and supported by the west this time — most secular democratic Iranians are not willing to settle for this farce you call progress.
    We settled for “anything other than the Shah” in 1979;
    and look what we got, we got a fascistic Islamist regime.
    All “single point” sloganed revolutions end up in melarkey and BS liek we have now. It was only “Death to the Shah” in 1979, and now it’s only “Death to Dictator”. Nothing else about anything else in the slogans, no “Long Live secular Democracy in Iran” and certainly no “Down with Islamic Republic”–
    Im glad you’re happy with Mousavi, there enlies the problem.
    But to each their own.

    http://pajamasmedia.com/michaelledeen/2009/06/17/so-now-whats-going-on-in-iran/#comments

  101. Sand Ape says:

    “The Al-Arabiya website cites a high-ranking source in the city of Qom, who said Rafsanjani, the Assembly of Experts and the Council of Guardians have agreed to depose Khamenei but do not intend to appoint a successor for the time being, mulling the establishment of a collective supreme rule.”

    http://www.facebook.com/ext/share.php?sid=92703374836&h=pEOU8&u=MvPxs&ref=nf

    Too bad for the Neocon’s..Not that you could have bobmed Iran anyways without consequences. Did you know Iran produces their own Oil, rockets, ships, tanks, subs – due to the sanctions imposed on them? Isolating Iran is the best thing the West could have done to Iran. It aint over til its over!

  102. Roman Kalik says:

    Did you know Iran produces their own Oil

    Yes, it produces so much of it that it has petroleum imports – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Gas_Rationing_Plan_in_Iran

    One of the reasons AJ became so hated in Iran was because of his brilliant rationing plan, itself a product of economic failure, mismanagement, and economic sanctions.

    It’s like how the Soviet Union became a net importer rather than exporter of grain.

  103. EgyPeter says:

    Thanks Roman.

    You get it :)

  104. “Did you know Iran produces their own Oil, rockets, ships, tanks, subs”

    Sandy showing his lack of intellect and knowledge once again, you’re the best recruiting mechanism conservatives have ever had Sandy! Thanks!! : D

    Why didn’t you use your best and usually most convincing rhetorical device: END OF STORY!!

    LMAO

  105. Too bad for the Neocon’s..

    Let me get this straight. You are hoping that what appears to be a spontaneous popular upraising against a tyrannical government in Iran is put down, just to annoy “neocons”?

    You’re even worse than I thought, Sand Ape.

  106. MC

    IF you treat what Saahle Manesh said with deference only because he is an Iranian (??) so “he must know” I am really really disappointed in you. But, hey, Ahmadineajd is also Iranian so we all should believe what he says. ;-)
    ****
    Not to mention that this Saahle Manesh guy misread me badly, but that’s probably because his imagination run away with him.

  107. “Did you know Iran produces their own Oil, rockets, ships, tanks, subs – due to the sanctions imposed on them? ”
    Sand Ape you forgot to mention that Iran also produces airplanes. Well, perhaps not the whole airplanes but parts to them. The parts, of course, being wires keeping old parts together. They are so good that Iranian lines have one of the first place in flying safety ……first place from the bottom, that is. ;-)

  108. hanan @ 13, thanks for reminding everyone what ‘real americans’ would do. Trite phrases without meaning do not help anyone. Ask the party of GWB. You’re either with ‘em or agin ‘em.

  109. Ella, most of the “manned” Iranian military equipment is only meant to go out to the fight, not return. The planes they have that are capable of getting airborne are basically for kamikaze missions, the most they could hope to achieve would be to drop a bomb on or near Israel. There’s not much chance of them competing with top line western military aircraft, it would be a turkey shoot for the Westerners.

  110. Moose,

    hanan @ 13, thanks for reminding everyone what ‘real americans’ would do. Trite phrases without meaning do not help anyone.

    It’s important to note that the only person who used that “trite phrase” was you. I just went back and read the comment you referenced, and Hanan said “most Americans” not “real Americans”. There is quite a difference, as I’m sure you know. Why did you chose to put words in his mouth before attacking him for things he didn’t say? Whenever I see somebody being intellectually dishonest and/or using cheap/nasty debating tactics I assume they are a leftist, and that almost always turns out to be the case. Why are leftists such assholes, Moose?

    Ask the party of GWB. You’re either with ‘em or agin ‘em.

    Pretty sure what Bush actually said was “Either you’re with us or you’re with the terrorists”. And, that turned out to be a pretty true statement based on what’s happened in the 8 years since then. Wouldn’t you agree? It does seem like those who chose not to make common cause with the US after the 9/11 are very much “with” the terrorists. *shrug*

  111. Sand Ape says:

    You guys got me, I’m BAD. But you guys are far worse! :)

    Here’s a good one for you, Craig (pot calling the kettle black) saying – quote comment 111: “Why did you chose to put words in his mouth before attacking him for things he did’nt say?”

    Need I say more?

    Thanks Roman for being the most polite person here, coming from an Israeli, that is just as ironic as Craig’s above statement. What an enigma you guys are :)

    tedder’s – No Comment – as usual! :)

    Thewhiz, your comment 96 was the best one i read on any blog regarding the Iranian issue. More power to you!

  112. If folk are wondering on the origin of Sand Ape’s eloquent comment at #76, it seems to partially come from an article by Gareth Smyth in the Tehran Bureau. The article has been subsequently removed. Very interesting stuff.

  113. Roman Kalik says:

    Thanks Roman for being the most polite person here, coming from an Israeli, that is just as ironic as Craig’s above statement.

    Yes, I can see how that would be *ironic* to a person who perceives Israelis as bloodthirsty monsters, the lot of ‘em, who also rule all the banks.

    Does it make life easier, living by stereotypes and bigotry? I know it does remove so many mental complications…

  114. Sand Ape says:

    Thanks Urgan, you have to get it while its hot!

    Roman, no offence buddy but I was sincere. knowing not all Israeli’s are bloodthirsty traumatized Holocaust survivors fighting for their lives, hence removing easing their own mental complications. I understand most have no choice.

    Smart israeli peace loving activists believe they have a right to exist, but ALL believe they should have went about it in a different way.

    The banks…..no comment, unless you consider honorary citizenship to such bankers as citizenship. Which you probably do, so no comment!

  115. Sand Ape says:

    Just as I am sure you stereo type all the Palestinians as being terrorists for throwing rocks, firing rockets, and suicide mission’s for israel demolishing their homes and settling on their lands. Didn’t israel go into Gaza to prevent rockets? So why wouldn’t the Palestinians do what they can to prevent hostilities against an internationally known perpetrator that we turn a blind eye for, due to the immense suffering you guys endured during the Holocaust.

    Livni’s dad and the father of Obama’s chief of staff were considered terrorsits by the Brits and the US for blowing up the King David hotel. Yet you hear them speak of how terrorism is bad LMAO. Wasn’t the ruling ANC in South Africa called communist bush war terrorists when they fought apartheid? Now look at them. So don’t waste your intellect defending such heresy.

    Peace to you, for what its worth. If I were Palestian, I would have reservations about saying that to you. Shalom dude!

  116. Roman Kalik says:

    knowing not all Israeli’s are bloodthirsty traumatized Holocaust survivors fighting for their lives… I understand most have no choice.

    Yeah, you keep telling that to yourself. Just as long as it makes the dehumanization easier for you.

    The banks…..no comment, unless you consider honorary citizenship to such bankers as citizenship. Which you probably do, so no comment!

    But whyever not? You mention it so often in other occasions, and yet now all of a sudden you refrain from doing so? Where are the Rothschild-related conspiracy theory rants when we want them?

    Just as I am sure you stereo type all the Palestinians as being terrorists for throwing rocks, firing rockets, and suicide mission’s

    Ah yes, your eternal defense… instead of looking in the mirror, you immediately try to turn criticism of you against those that utter it. So it’s everyone else, not you, who has a problem, right?

    No, I don’t paint a group people with the same brush. It’s the solution for those with mental laziness set to ON – and I don’t approve of that at all.

    for israel demolishing their homes and settling on their lands. Didn’t israel go into Gaza to prevent rockets? So why wouldn’t the Palestinians do what they can to prevent hostilities against an internationally known perpetrator

    I always like moral equivalence arguments – “*You* build on *my* land, so *I* tell my teenage son that it is his holy duty to blow himself up and scatter you, your wife, your kids, and anyone near you across several meters. And he will go to Heaven, for it is good to murder and commit suicide.”

    And this is obviously merely a *reaction*, rather than a problem in and by itself. And obviously, intentional murder-and-suicide routines are a universally known method to solve conflicts – that is, if you go about killing everyone.

    You know, here’s the thing… if Palestinian terrorists actually limited themselves to military rather than civilian targets (you know, like the Israeli army does?), they’d actually have some claim to this “resistance” title they like so much. The IDF can claim that civilian casualties are collateral damage (because, in the great land of Palestine, the military targets have this tendency of deliberately mingling in the civilian), and the “resistance” can claim zilch when a suicide bomber blows himself up in a restaurant.

    that we turn a blind eye for, due to the immense suffering you guys endured during the Holocaust.

    Indeed. And not because there *might* be something wrong with what Palestinians do. Because, after all, Palestinians are Arabs. And mostly Muslims. And in your eyes, Muslim Arabs trump Jews every day of the week.

    Livni’s dad and the father of Obama’s chief of staff were considered terrorsits by the Brits and the US for blowing up the King David hotel.

    Ah yes, the King David Hotel… then the home of the central offices of the British Mandatory authorities of Palestine. While there’s much to criticize in Irgun’s actions, this was one of those targets that were actually legitimate. Their failing was in not making sure that the civilians working there had a proper chance to evacuate, and they remain responsible for those deaths.

    But you know, I can’t help but imagine the following scenario:

    A bomb is placed at an IDF HQ building in Tel-Aviv, and a Fatah/Hamas/Hezbollah/etc makes the following phone call: “To eradicate your oppression of our people and send out a message of freedom, we have placed a bomb in your building. You have half an hour to evacuate.”

    But I’m afraid that scenario remains in my imagination alone. Palestinian terrorists would simply blow the building up to maximize the death toll. Hezbollah or Hamas would rain rockets on the HQ, the city of Tel-Aviv, and the 20 surrounding cities, while choosing 7:30-8:00 in the morning and 18:00-18:30 in the evening for the barrages to hit civilians as they leave to, or return from, work and school.

    Wasn’t the ruling ANC in South Africa called communist bush war terrorists when they fought apartheid? Now look at them.

    They did ally themselves with the Soviet Union during the exile period, and their violent acts (which included stuffing a tire over someone, covering them in fuel, and setting them aflame, to name one gruesome method) were criticized by black South Africans as well – such as Archbishop Desmund Tutu.

    Since then the revolutionary generation of South Africa did its very best to destroy the country, supported murderous tyrants like Mugabe just because he was another so-called revolutionary, and generally tried to create an environment of anti-white racism and “The white man/West are to blame for all our ills.”

    It took them 15 years to smarten up a bit.

    Peace to you, for what its worth.

    Oh, it’s worth something, I assure you. I’m all for a civil debate, because unlike the alternatives that actually tends to lead somewhere that’s better than today.

    If I were Palestian, I would have reservations about saying that to you.

    And I view that as unfortunate. I have grown tired of a reality wherein the only peaceniks in the Israel-Palestine issue live in Israel.

    Shalom dude!

    Wa Alayk as-Salaam.

  117. Marie Claude says:

    Ella, you’re disapointed with me for whatever I bring , cuz, you know I’m french LMAO

    BTW, I didn’t understand that Saahle Manesh is pro any mullah, it’s not what he advocates here

    225. Saahle Manesh:

    Dr Ledeed

    Could you kindly get off the soap box campaigning for this murderous Mousavi regime goon?

    The difference between Mousavi and Ahmadinejad is the difference between the Black Plague and Cholerra

    We are seeing signs of the uprising changing direction away from regime hatchet men like your favorite Mousavi, and towards finding a solution OUTSIDE the regime.
    I know you and the CIA don’t like that But this is NOT 30-years ago, you cannot shove another Khomeini down peoples throats :) :)

    http://pajamasmedia.com/michaelledeen/2009/06/22/monday-night-and-tuesday-morning-in-iran/#comments

  118. Semper Gumby says:

    R.I.P. Neda Agha Soltan…

  119. Roman Kalik says:

    Answering everything with ad hominem.

    Ad hominem arguments involve attacking a person instead of his arguments or factual claims. In those few cases where you stated facts, I replied to them as relevant – in other cases (consisting of most of your previous two comments) you were merely spreading further misinformation that is based, not on facts, but rather on your personal opinion.

    At which point, I have no actual argument to reply to – merely some stereotypes to tear apart, bigotry to point out, and generally discredit that which, by and large, doesn’t actually need much help in discrediting in the first place.

    In short, ad hominem requires *arguments*. You have, in fact, made very few statements that actually *are* arguments.

    And speaking of ad hominem… You have often used the ad hominem abusive (it’s practically been a signature of your persona), have used the ad hominem tu quoque just now (when implying that I use stereotypes as a way of not addressing your own use of them), use the ad hominem circumstantial and ad hominem via guilt by association whenever facing a person who is also a member of a group against which you a prepared set of notions, and via which you may then attack the member of the group based on your perception of the group rather than replying to the person.

    Pots and kettles come to mind, good sir. Of the sooty variety.

    dude, I sympathize with you. Israel has a shortfall. They believe all Jerusalem and the surrounding land is theres and only theres. Christian & Muslims have claim to it too.

    *shrug* Other than making the area a battlefield for centuries, from the start of the Muslim conquests until the very last Crusade, neither Christian nor Muslim rulers saw much of a need for the land of Israel.

    And when it comes to Jerusalem, so far the only rulers that *haven’t* actively destroyed the holy sites of the other religions have been the Jewish rulers.

    As for your underlying assumption, that of Israeli lust for conquest… did I mention the lack of arguments and the abundance of attacks in their stead just yet? I most certainly hope I did.

    As if israel would admit they are a murdering state, its not like they would just suddenly say ooops, ok, we are at fault, we will pick up and leave LMAO!

    Well, you got one thing right – we’re not going to pack our bags and head for the boats and planes. But again, the hidden assumption – that of Israel being a murderous state.

    And you wonder why I question your personal bias on the matter?

  120. They believe all Jerusalem and the surrounding land is theres and only theres. Christian & Muslims have claim to it too.

    No, Muslims don’t. Muslims entered Jerusalem as invaders, long after Islam was an established religion. Islam didn’t evolve (even in part) in Jerusalem. It’s really not cool to proclaim other people’s Holy Sites as your own, long after the fact. There’s a passage in the Quran that some early Muslims thought might refer to the Temple Mount, so Jerusalem is an Islamic Holy site? Well, shit bro… you know how much of the middle-east in mentioned in the Christian bible, don’t you? If we’re going to play that game then we’ll take the whole fucking thing and Muslims can go suck wind out in the desert wastes where they belong, right? How come everything is always “take” in Islam? Take take take. That’s not a very healthy state of mind. “Give” is much better for the human spirit.

  121. Thanks Roman keep it up, you’re waxing the floor with Sandy and he, is making the fool of himself for all to see once again. Bless you for putting up with his nonsense and thanks for pulling his sad bias and cancerous belief system out into the light for all to see. The best part is the lightweight doesn’t even understand what’s going on, who he’s dealing with and what a complete trouncing he’s getting. It makes me smile to see you having so much fun with him!! : D

    “What a hurrendous flaw.”
    “Trust me a pitty you!”
    “Listen to your rationalization for assurping the land.”

    Dude, do you even read what you write? Does the term “spell check” have a meaning in your vernacular?

    Sandy’s lame hate filled hyperbole in 3, …2, …1, …

  122. To #111 Craig,

    Mine eyes dost not deceive but yours are surely without focus.

    “Is there someplace we can post messages that Iranian protesters might see that they could hopefully gather steam from? So that they know the weak signals and “we don’t care” vibes sent out by Obama are in fact NOT what real Americans are feeling. If even they had an inkling of the amount of support they had, what the thugs are trying to keep from them, they won’t easily give up.”

    Failing to read the entire message will not endear you in an argument. Failure to understand that a legacy of secrecy and oppression puts the US on a par with her most despised enemies throughout history.

    And only a right winger would assume whomever they disagree with is an asshole. Most Americans disagreed with the Bush administration once they were cognizant of the abuses allowed by his administration. I would hope that most Americans would vote against any party in power that denied that torture is a crime (as a specific point). Clinton was no picnic nor was Reagan. Politicians in general are a pimple on the backside of the people the represent.

    That said, I have disliked the Bush administration since the day of its inception. Call me a leftist asshole. (shrug) Ain’t no difference to a country boy who’s lived in a Muslim country.

  123. Failing to read the entire message will not endear you in an argument.

    As if that’s your purpose from coming here lol.

    And I interpret that usage of “real” as being “regular folks” as opposed to politicos like Obama. You’d have to be really looking for a fight (which you obviously are) to interpret that as a claim that Obama is not a real American.

    And only a right winger would assume whomever they disagree with is an asshole.

    A) I’m a libertarian. I’m sure I’m considerable more liberal on social issues than YOU are, in that I actually care about individual rights and freedoms, whereas leftists such as yourself tend more towards big-brother socialism.

    B) I assume that people are assholes because they are assholes. I was just wondering why so many times assholes turn out to be leftists. Does the left have some sort of special appeal for people who like to act like jerk offs?

    That said, I have disliked the Bush administration since the day of its inception. Call me a leftist asshole. (shrug)

    So, after all that posturing about how I was making invalid assumptions about you, it turns out that I wasn’t? :o

    Ain’t no difference to a country boy who’s lived in a Muslim country.

    Yeah, lots of American leftists like to live in countries where the people loathe the US. Odd, isn’t it? I think people like you cause a lot of misunderstanding about what Americans are really like. I see a lot of confusion on Arab blogs when their American readers don’t say the things they are “supposed” to say. It’s kind of depressing. Next time you’re in a foreign country and you want to tell people how awful you think your country is, do them a favor and keep your mouth shut instead. Leave the public relations work to people who *aren’t* trying to drag their own country through the mud, will ya?

  124. Believe whaqt you will, your first premise for calling me out was wrong which puts the resat of your conclusions in question.

  125. …which puts the resat of your conclusions in question.

    You might have been able to make that claim, if you hadn’t already fessed up about everything :p

  126. @ 110 tedders
    I was talking about civil airplanes..
    As for military, hmm……………. I am certain you are right, but then I sure don’t know much about it.

    @ MC
    Ella, you’re disapointed with me for whatever I bring , cuz, you know I’m french
    I understand that you thought I could not guess it, but you were wrong. Nevertheless, thank you for making sure I know it..
    As for Mr. Saahle Manesh – there are so many things (and people) coming out of the woods right now that one is naturally confused. But I stick to my opinions – on mr Saahle Maanesh and on the subject. .
    btw I noticed that you did not quote my posts, but that’s OK. The place for discussion of Pajamas posts is on Pajamas media

  127. Sand Ape;

    thanks to your reference to my comment #96. If you think that is a strategy that should be pursued, feel free to cut and paste it anywhere that the Iranian people may see it. I don’t know too many ME sites, especially those that are popular with Iranians.

    No need to attribute it to me, I don’t care for credit as long as the good people of Iran get the freedom thay fight so hard for.

  128. Roman Kalik says:

    @Sand Ape,

    And you still didn’t adress my main for the second time.

    Oh, but I did – on the very first occasion! Perhaps you should go and read my comments in full? I’m not sure how you missed approximately half of it, but there we have it.

    Listen to your rationalization for assurping the land.

    Pardon? I am not “rationalizing” any “usurpation”, which is another assumption of yours meant to derail the debate – I am replying to your claims of Muslim and Christian rights of sovereignty on the land.

    Digging up Muslim shrines doesn’t count in your book because after all, Muslims and Christians are subhuman in your faith.

    See? And this is where you prove I don’t need to air out your bigotry – you do it yourself so well. Perhaps you would like to show me just which Muslim shrine the Jews have dug up, destroyed, and so on… go ahead. Al-Aqsa is being dug up only in Hamas propaganda videos, whereas the Jewish sites in the Old City of Jerusalem were actively destroyed under Jordanian Muslim rule.

    Israel will always be the worlds elite squatters

    And according to that very reasoning, Muslims have been squatters in Palestine ever since they arrived in the 7th century. See the problem with that line of reasoning yet?

    @tedders,

    Bless you for putting up with his nonsense and thanks for pulling his sad bias and cancerous belief system out into the light for all to see…. It makes me smile to see you having so much fun with him!! : D

    Happy to oblige.

  129. Marie Claude says:

    Ella blah Blah —> prout !

  130. Roman Kalik says:

    LMAO at the Kind david hotel being a legitimate target. In the dictionary of terrorsism, I am sure it is, so go figure ha ha ha ha !

    Interesting. So, you are saying that the administrative and military headquarters of the British Mandate of Palestine was not a military target.

    By that reasoning, the central military headquarters of the IDF is not a military target (I did bring it as a parallel for a reason), and neither is the Pentagon in the United States or the Egyptian Army Chief of Staff H.Q. in Cairo.

    I’m frankly baffled. So what *is* a valid military target, then? Perhaps my murderous Israeli ways have befuddled my reasoning.

  131. Craig @ 111,

    Actually phrase “real Americans” was used in #13.

    Check it again.

    On Obama’s behavior regarding Iran, I believe his actions are not perfect by acceptable. His reasons for staying quiet have merit.

    However, if unfavorable opinion of Ayatollahs expressed by US President will supposedly give Mullahs internal boost then Iran is not ready for a change yet.

    Which, also would make Obama caution moot. Perhaps him acting as a leader would look much better then drifting.

  132. Actually phrase “real Americans” was used in #13.

    Leo, I know… but it wasn’t used in the derogatory way “Moose” seemed to be claiming it was.

    Sand Ape,

    If the british were a target, you must have believed they didnt belong there, so if they didnt belong there, how could they give you part of land that isnt theres to start off with,,,,,ahhhh the irony!

    The British created the state of Israel now? :o

    And I suppose that’s why British officers were leading Jordanian troops in 1948? And it must be why the proto-Israelis considered them an enemy?

    Do you even have opinions on any of this stuff? It seems like you just make stuff up in whatever way is most convenient for your current argumentation.

  133. Interesting. So, you are saying that the administrative and military headquarters of the British Mandate of Palestine was not a military target.

    Roman, he’s got you on that. It isn’t the fact that it’s valid military target, it’s that there was no state of war, now were Jews living on the mandate of Palestine considered to be under occupation, which would have given them a legal right to resist that occupation. On the latter point, even if the the Mandate of Palestine was considered occupied by a foreign invader (the British) then the fact that at the time Jews living there had no national identity of their own would have been problematic. It’s a bit of a gray area because of the chaotic political situation of the ME at the time, but I’m pretty sure there’s no legal basis for claiming those were acts of war.

  134. Roman Kalik says:

    The British and Americans branded your founders as terrorists, not me. So eat your heart out.

    Funny, but the founders of the current State of Israel were left-wing Labor Zionists. You’re still going for that generalization approach you use when you prefer not to answer an argument, yes?

    As for the rest of your ludicrous denial and all the other lost children. Here you go

    So, an article on the small graveyard beyond the barred Gate of Mercy, made by the oh-so-credible Al-Jazeerah. I wonder if the reporters have ever been in Jerusalem, because had they visited the place they would have become aware that you can’t enter the cemetery without passing through the Muslim study hall within the walls.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Gate_%28Jerusalem%29
    http://www.palestineremembered.com/GeoPoints/Jerusalem_528/Picture_10135.html

    You can only enter the place when passing through the Temple Mount itself.

    Then you bring up the matter of some radical protesters *entering* a Muslim site (which, I might add, is also the most important *Jewish* site in the world, which Muslims decided to build over), indeed a desecration that has no equal.

    And I fancy there’s quite a difference between the actions of a couple of idiots and that of systematically destroying every single synagogue in the Old City of Jerusalem, bulldozing most of the Jewish Quarter, and using ancient Jewish tombstones as construction material.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mount_of_Olives_in_Jerusalem.jpg
    http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1948to1967_holysites.php
    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/talking/8_Jerusalem.html

    We spent decades rebuilding sites that were destroyed under Jordanian rule, which saw fit to eradicate the memory of Jewish presence and history in Jerusalem. The only site that wasn’t systematically harmed was the Western Wall, and that only because it serves as the support wall for what is now the Al-Aqsa mosque complex.

    And much of the Mount of Olives graveyard stayed beyond restoration – many tombstones are broken beyond repair or simply gone, and there wasn’t there’s too much uncertainty as to where each particular tombstone was – few tried to map the largest and oldest graveyard in Jerusalem before it was destroyed and defaced beyond recognition.

    You bring up a couple of hoodlums, and claim that as systematic desecration and destruction of Muslim sites. All I see is politicized hyperbole that tries to create an elephant out of a mouse. We’d have to blow up the Al-Aqsa complex in its entirety to get anywhere *near* the level of destruction in Jerusalem under Muslim rule.

    And of course, we have the Tomb of Joseph as further evidence of *real* vandalism and desecration: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph%27s_Tomb

    If you can bring up *real* instances of clear, deliberate, and organized desecration of Muslim or Christian sites, do so – don’t rely on “everyone knows it’s happening” rumor-articles, and hyperbole. See above examples of Jewish sites destroyed and defiled as examples of what you should be looking for.

  135. Roman Kalik says:

    @Craig,

    Roman, he’s got you on that. It isn’t the fact that it’s valid military target, it’s that there was no state of war

    Not Sand Ape’s argument, as he didn’t actually reason this far. You are correct on there being no state of war. The terms of the Mandate were broken by the British (the recently-created UN was already demanding that Britain either allow Jewish immigration, or leave the area), but it was not a state of war.

    now were Jews living on the mandate of Palestine considered to be under occupation, which would have given them a legal right to resist that occupation.

    On the latter point, even if the the Mandate of Palestine was considered occupied by a foreign invader (the British) then the fact that at the time Jews living there had no national identity of their own would have been problematic. It’s a bit of a gray area because of the chaotic political situation of the ME at the time, but I’m pretty sure there’s no legal basis for claiming those were acts of war.

    It’s a gray area, considering that the terms of the British Mandate dictated the creation of a Jewish national home within the borders of the Mandate. The Jews living there had a clear national identity by then (it’s why they got there in the first place!), just no declared country independent of the British rule.

    By its very definition, the British Mandate was there as a temporary administrative body that was to oversee the independent rule of the peoples living therein, and of the creation of the Jewish nation. As a kind of an oxymoron, it broke the terms of the Mandate by actively trying to prevent the formation of the Jewish nation, but without the creation of such a nation in the first place there could be no legal armed struggle against the British presence…

    Existing legal discourse on occupation and war had no real answer for this situation – it was a case it never anticipated in the first place.

  136. Roman Kalik says:

    I guess you are just enacting an eye for an eye as the Talmud says eh?

    http://www.aishdas.org/toratemet/en_mishpatim.html

    The Talmudic sages saw “An eye for an eye” in a non-literal manner, thus it is merely a matter of paying the value of the damage, compensation to the victim who will have to spend the rest of his life without the organ, and taking into consideration the extent of the damage for the person’s chances to earn a living and so on.

    Perhaps you should try reading the Talmud and its many discourses before talking about it?

    So are you saying that Palestine under occupation has the the right to resist & fight back,?

    Perhaps you haven’t noticed, but Craig’s claim (and my own, for that matter) is that there was no legal definition of war and occupation based on the fact that there no country to be occupied as of yet. Legal definitions of occupation, and the right and duty to resist occupation, are first based on the existence of a country.

    Israel was yet to exist under the British Mandate, even if its defined charter throws that matter into a somewhat gray area.

    Palestine does not exist, either. It did not exist under the British Mandate, not under Jordanian and Egyptian rule, and neither under Israeli rule.

    But let us assume, for the moment, that the right to resist military occupation is one that Palestinians hold – this right applies only to *direct military targets*. Something the Palestinian terrorist groups never even considered, with their active focus on the Israeli civilian populace, hence the absurdity of the above-mentioned scenario, where a Palestinian group would not only attack an Israeli military asset, but would actually call in to avoid civilian casualties.

  137. Roman Kalik says:

    Sounds stupid to warn civilians

    And here I was wondering why the IDF and IAF do it all the time – they should heed your advice.

    when the whole reason for the strike is avenge civilian deaths.

    So, we’re not in Resistance territory anymore, and rushing on toward murder? Just checking, I can’t be quite sure with you most of the time.

    Plus there is no IDF without civilians and reservists. So in war — even with a people without a nation — all is fair.

    Ah yes, the very argument that has been used by every single armed force that lined up men between 16 and 45 and shot them into a mass grave.

    Funnily enough, they call that genocide and war crimes, which probably doesn’t apply to a people without a nation, right? All’s fair if you’re fighting the Zionists, eh?

    By the same logic, seeing as how the Palestinian groups recruit directly from the civilian populace, particularly teenagers, the IDF should simply go around and kill every single male Palestinian younger than 45, on the premise that he *might become* a military target.

    The IDF should then shoot all women of child-bearing age, to make sure that no Palestinian men who will grow up to be of military age can be born.

    Keep in mind that that is *your* form of reasoning, not mine. Because is all is fair in war, right? No rules, no limitations, just as long as it’s the Evil Enemy you’re fighting.

    Keep telling yourself that you guys are doing exactly what God wants you to be doing.

    Ah, wonderful. I was wondering when you would return to the usual fare – so, the underlying assumption now is that we are evil Zionist fanatics who twist Judaism to suit our needs?

    As this is coming from a man who references to the Talmud based on propaganda and bigotry, I’m not entirely sure what’s the point. Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with religions before speaking about them?

    Degrading his other creation, sub human Muslims and Christians

    Ah yes, and here everyone should accept the following – that Israeli Zionist Jews see all Muslims and Christians as sub-human. It *must* be so, for you have said it!

    illegal settlements. kicking them off land that all they have been doing is farming for centuries.

    But of course – and obviously there have been no Jews here for centuries, or millenniums for that matter… Al-Aqsa stood eternal and no Temple ever existed, and so on…

    No way, you guys traumatized and panic stricken? I wouldn’t think of it!
    :)

    Sometimes I can’t quite understand where your ideas come from. The convoluted thought process that works tirelessly to justify its flawed basic assumptions… and the worst part is that you think that this is *logic*. And then you go to build *more* over the previous foundations, and expect people to treat that as valid arguments as well.

    At which point, when people don’t reply to them as arguments, you have a little victory dance. For you have won! It’s not that people see your arguments as rubbish, it’s that they can’t find a valid answer! And so, victory is yours!

    You have no idea how sad that is.

  138. “Sounds stupid to warn civilians when the whole reason for the strike is avenge civilian deaths. on the other side. Plus there is no IDF without civilians and reservists. So in war — even with a people without a nation — all is fair.”

    You’ve just proved (again) your ignorance and the complete moral bankruptcy of your beliefs, it’s all coming through loud and clear. This, from the side that routinely exaggerates the number of civilian casualties as propaganda, forcibly congregates children and old people into staging areas where fighters are, produces directs and films homemade non atrocities and attempts to pass them off as real incidents that are now being, apparently, used as an excuse to perpetrate real atrocities on innocent civilians of Israel. Priceless!

    By your logic: There would be no Palestinian terrorists if there were no Palestinians, … so we should just kill them all! Can you see how ridiculously ignorant you sound, how weak your argument is and how laughable your rhetoric is? Warning innocent civilians of a bomb doesn’t sound nearly so stupid as your ideas do.

  139. I do not think Sand Ape understands what s/he is saying.

    Sand Ape, you just justified genocide. You are lucky you got Jews for enemies.

  140. Adam B. says:

    I see SA is up to his old tricks, ie. making up facts, disregarding history, ignoring reality, dictating one standard or “rule set” for the israelis and another for the palestinians, comparing individual israeli atrocities to the official state-sponsored ditto of their opponents, etc. ad naseum…

    And I see you guys are still taking him seriously, for some reason! Oh well, anything to watch the monkey dance… :D

  141. Roman Kalik says:

    @Adam B,

    And I see you guys are still taking him seriously, for some reason! Oh well, anything to watch the monkey dance… :D

    No, no, no, Adam. No one actually goes as far as to take him *seriously*. I see myself as more of a shovel that Sand Ape uses to dig himself into a pit.

    @Sand Ape,

    JUST SILLY, RETARDED AND STUPID OF YOU. HOW CAN YOU SAY SHIT LIKE THAT??

    You really don’t realize what you said back there, do you? Allow me to quote it again.

    “Sounds stupid to warn civilians when the whole reason for the strike is avenge civilian deaths.”

    I hope you realize that you have just accepted retaliation against civilians as an acceptable form of warfare – that is, when it comes from Palestinians. And Eye for an Eye, at that – in the literal sense, of which you just tried to accuse myself and Israelis.

    A pattern emerges. Everything that you actively accuse Israel of, and which from *them* is evil, you consider entirely acceptable when done by Palestinians.

    What about Darfur that you constantly whine about endlessly?

    Where do you get these retarded assumptions from? And you want people to think you are normal??? Fat chance!

    Nobody advocated genocide, but IDF does it anyways.

    No, Sand Ape. *you* just advocated genocide. That was the whole point of my reply, which you apparently did not comprehend – as others have already noted. You have just said that targeting every single civilian of arms-bearing age is acceptable in war – and that’s a genocidal war crime for the rest of us.

    I did not assume anything. The international community was not mentioned. You were, and your words, and that’s what we focused on just now.

    OK, wait, sorry. IDF doesn’t commit genocide, they just want inhabitants to live in slums behind walls with no rights or a means to protect themselves. Taking pot shots at justifying it to be 100% OK to do so! SICK!!!!!

    Ah, so we’re back to what everyone must accept, merely because you say it – now it’s that the IDF wants Palestinians to suffer.

    Long live Demona lolol!

    Long live Egypt’s chemical weapons arsenal. Which it saw no problem with using in Yemen. Long live Syria’s chemical arsenal, which Assad Senior used on his own countrymen. Long live Iraq and the late Saddam Hussein’s chemical arsenal, which he used on pretty much anyone in sight.

    Long live ignorance.

    Tomorrow, Arabs will invade spain and use the same arguments you present and say that they lived there before so its all Arab lands.

    Unfortunately, Spain is an independent, sovereign nation rather than a shit-hole of a province of a dying Empire.

    American Indians will become Irgun and Haggana and re-claim their homeland from the invading caucasions.

    Now, that would make them *Palestinians*, won’t it?

    I mean using Zionist logic that makes perfect sense doesnt it?

    Afraid not.

  142. Welcome back my friends
    to the show that never ends
    We’re so glad could attend,
    come inside, come inside
    There behind a glass
    stands Sand Ape the ignorant ass
    Be careful as you pass,
    move along, move along
    (my apologies to Emerson, Lake and Palmer)

    This might help Adam see what’s going on here. Best part is Sandy goes along with it thinking he’s the center of attention!!! Talk about a sacrificial lamb!!

  143. Roman Kalik says:

    No Mr. silly shovel, you wrote off Israeli terrorism as being a few rogue elements. you know the ones held in hi esteem in Israel, the massacre of the cave of the Patriarch etc. All over occupied Palestine such as Haifa, tel Aviv etc. these terrorists are hailed as national hero’s.

    Baruch Goldstein was condemned by all Israeli political parties, representatives of all Jewish denominations, the Israeli public in general, and even Jewish communities in the diaspora as a terrorist, and his act an unjustifiable crime.

    Eden Natan-Zada’s attack, over a decade later, was treated in the exact same manner – shock and condemnation across the board.

    Whereas the reaction to Palestinian terrorist acts is quite the opposite – candy handed out in the streets, messages of congratulation and celebrations. So, which society is the one that actively glorifies terrorism again?

    So basically rogue Palestinian elements are just trying to match your terrorist capabilities, and don’t feel it necessary to warn civilians. After all they are just rogue elements, so there.

    Yes, obviously we can compare the despicable actions of lone gunmen, reviled and despised in their society, with routine attacks against civilians that are celebrated, with their perpetrators called martyrs.

    And the “rogue elements” have been calling themselves the Palestinian government (or governments, rather) for quite some time now.

  144. Sand Ape,

    “JOKE: How do Zionists retort accusations of war crimes and illegal occupation?

    Answer 1: Holocaust!”

    I just searched entire page with comments and noticed that Holocaust is being mentioned 3 times (barring quoted phrases). And all 3 times it is being mentioned by you. Looks like Jews do not talk about Holocaust as much as you’d like them too.

    So much for your Zionist joke.

    Perhaps corrected version of your joke should look like this:

    “JOKE: How do Arabs retort accusations of war crimes and illegal occupation (of Middle East and North Africa)?

    Answer 1: Blame Jews for trying to get their land back!”

  145. Marie Claude says:

    SO, seems that some persons managed to keep their head on their shulders

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jun/23/stopping-the-bomb-is-what-counts/

    hey, has Barak the sense of the realities, or just absent ?

    http://www.debka.com/headline.php?hid=6140

    tiens, bizarre in the cacaphony, we didn’t remark that “Tehran takes note of Israel’s non-interference in its domestic turmoil”

    http://www.debka.com/headline.php?hid=6146

    Bizarre too that the protestors have the “wrong” flag

    http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/iranflag.php

    on the final note

    http://www.caglepost.com/cartoon/Peray/66103/Michael+headlines+around+the+World.html

  146. Tomorrow, Arabs will invade spain and use the same arguments you present and say that they lived there before so its all Arab lands.

    And what excuse did they use the first time they invaded Spain, Sand Ape? :P

    What excuse did Arabs use when they invaded Palestine the first time, way back in the day?

    Of all the lands Arabs conquered, Spain is the only one that ejected Arabs by force. I’m not sure how the Persians ejected Arabs… maybe they just waited it out until the Turks took over the Caliphate. But it’s interesting to me that you keep bringing up the notion of Arabs re-conquering Spain. That’s not an “example” you use to illustrate something wrong that Israel has done… it’s obviously a fantasy of yours. So if you think it would be OK for Arabs to take over Spain against the will of the Spaniards, where in the fuck do you get the audacity to claim there’s something morally wrong about Israel?

  147. Twosret says:

    How many topics do we have on hand on this thread? and I thought that the blog died a while ago and made a mistake not checking lol.

  148. “Zionists like tedders so repulsed and foam at the mouth when I bring to their attention their follies,”

    Keep digging that hole you’re already in, seems quite funny to me since you’re describing a southern Baptist!! But of course in your world any number of unrelated non equivalence adds up to a Rothschilds Zionists conspiracy. One day when your older and wiser you’ll see the folly of your ways, hopefully.

    “Keep foaming teddy….ready…3, 2, 1….GO!”

    LMAO!! Sandy, you are sooooo entertaining! You’re making my weekend buddy, thank you!

    Ahhh, that foam you’re talking about is the creamy head of a well balanced, full flavored, rich, malty body beer with a pleasant caramel character derived from a specialty malt that I’m in the middle of enjoying! A complex hop aroma, with a hint of floral and citrus which comes from a combination moral superiority, intellectual honesty, Freedom and Liberty, all topped off with the knowledge of being right and on the correct and compassionate side of history, something you wouldn’t have any knowledge about or be aware of! Israel will long outlast the putred fantasy of your false propaganda and ridiculous rantings, might as well try to get used to it.

  149. Sand Ape:

    “Their land – lololololol ha ha ha ha, wonderful joke, I like it … !”

    Do you? Hardly. Your nervous laugh is dead give-away.

    I hope there will be time when Egyptians, and Phoenicians, and Assyrians, and all others will decide to take back their land just like Jews did.

  150. arab phobia says:

    tedders,

    Cognitive dissonance & psychological projection at its finest.

    LMAO, @ moral superioritv lol, intellectual lol, the knowledge of being correct & compassionate lol (great one).

    Coming from a Southern Baptist racist Zionist who follows the example of the old testement with its drunk incesstual fornicating prophets. Why does that not surprise me.

    Thank you guys for finally admitting that Israel is forcefully taking the land back. Rothschild aint happy about that.

    SM, WROTE ME AN EMAIL & PRETTY MUCH BARRED ME, SO EXCUSE THE NEW HANDLE. Yaay the winner!

    Sand Ape

  151. “SM, WROTE ME AN EMAIL & PRETTY MUCH BARRED ME, SO EXCUSE THE NEW HANDLE. ”

    Would love to see that email!! : D

    “Coming from a Southern Baptist racist Zionist”

    Yea, sure buddy, keep on believing that! Your not one little bit racist are you?!?!

    “follows the example of the old testement with its drunk incesstual fornicating prophets”

    I guess your uncles were a bit hard on you as a little boy? That’s sad, no wonder you’re so screwed up.

    “Thank you guys for finally admitting that Israel is forcefully taking the land back”

    Whoops, did you say, “taking the land back”? That means that it was theirs to begin with doesn’t it? Can’t take it BACK if it wasn’t yours in the first place. Sandy made a Freudian slip!! LOL Yaay you’re the loser!

  152. arab phobia,

    “SM, WROTE ME AN EMAIL & PRETTY MUCH BARRED ME, SO EXCUSE THE NEW HANDLE.

    Sand Ape”

    This is classic. :) =)

  153. arab phobia says:

    keep foaming at the mouth guys, leo #145, said it not me. Nice try tho! Thanks Sandmonkey for deleting all my recentt comments that made any reference to illegal Zionists.

  154. Roman Kalik says:

    So, I leave to observe the Shabbat, and what do I find when I return? Sand Ape lost yet another handle, and I didn’t even get to see what he wrote that got Sandmonkey to delete it and ban him.

    Adam B, if you’re still reading this, to continue my parallel to shovels and digging… the thing about shovels and letting someone use them to dig themselves into a pit, is that after the pit is ready it doesn’t take much to convince said person to bury himself.

    *hums a merry tune and returns to sipping tea and reading Georges Simeon novels*

  155. Marie Claude says:

    “and reading Georges Simeon novels”

    very instructing and diverting :lol:

  156. Sand Ape, , ,er, . . Arab phobia. . .any response to my advice to take to the factories, refineries, and nuke sites?? Woul dbe very interterested in what Iranians are thinking

    Thanks

    .

  157. I am not sure, but I think it is “Simenon”?

  158. Roman Kalik says:

    You’re right, Leo, it is indeed Simenon.

    MC, instructing, diverting, interesting, and incredibly depressing – Simenon seems incapable of writing a story that isn’t tragic, and from the preface of the series (I have the entire Detective Maigret series of books via my father’s library) that only gets more noticeable as his writing progresses.

    Still, it’s very well written – and the Russian translations we have are good.

  159. Marie Claude says:

    Roman,

    yes he was recognized as good writer as the end of his life, before he was only seen as a detective writer

    his characters psychology description is a model, also yes he is a bit “morbide”

  160. arab phobia says:

    “And what excuse did they use the first time they invaded Spain, Sand Ape? ”

    The same excuse the British had when they invaded North America? :D

  161. The same excuse the British had when they invaded North America? :D

    Why do you have a big grin when you say something so ridiculous? Are you retarded?

    Colonialism is not an appropriate comparison, as the purpose of colonialism was economic exploitation, not permanent annexation of lands. History is full of comparisons that would work (such as the Anglo-Saxon invasion of Britain, since you want to talk about the British) and yet… Sand Ape was unable to find any :o

    And you know what? Those examples that would be comparable to Arab annexation of foreign lands in the past are STILL not comparable to Jews taking back land that was stolen from them long ago, which is what you were trying so hard at condemning on moral grounds. To get back to Britain (since you’re butt-buddies with the British now and such) the equivalent would be if the Iceni celts,the picts and several dozen other indigenous tribes came back from the dead and reclaimed England. How many people would claim they were morally wrong, if that ever happened? Practicalities aside, how can it ever be morally wrong to reclaim something that was stolen from you?

  162. This is Sand Ape says:

    It is a top honor to have reached this juncture and been barred from highlighting the legitimate atrocities committed by the Powerful American Military Proxy (Army Ants) of the (Internationally Renowned Illegal Israeli Occupation Forces). The descendants of the same Army Ants that built the Great Pyramids of Egypt. Of course if one even ridicules the smell of Zionist feces, they are immediately branded an anti Semite by the racists who claim moral supremacy and intellectual honesty, even if that person is a descendant of the self serving murderer Kind David himself!

    This is just the icing on the cake of the fascist discipline indoctrinated into the illegal ant holes. Their top priority is to act as a unit and hold possession of the occupied hills by whatever means necessary. Holding the disgustingly inferior racist belief that a majority Jewish population must be held at all times. They have finally learned that there is no room for human ethics when they act like pests, trying to re-occupy sand hills and make them fertile with other peoples water, which involves uprooting 40 generations of sub humans from their farms and homes.

    Why not, they have nothing else to loose. Weren’t they all nearly annihilated before for having this very same supremacist-non integration belief system. As if God would be that mad at them if they treated other humans as equals and lent them money without interest as they do each other. Instead of indoctrinating their kids with the belief that it is not OK to treat non Jews with the same dignity they treat other Jews with, because non Jews are not as dear to God and as Jews are, therefore they must be treated with less dignity and it is Ok to charge interest to people with false religions. Talk about tolerance eh?.

    When it comes to Israel, their first order of business is to silence any opposition — or any questioning — by acts of intimidation and ridicule. As has been visibly apparent on this thread – Bye Bye Sand Ape. Surely it is obvious by now that criticism of Israel only allows the political Right to silence LEGITIMATE questions about Israel’s place in the crumbling imperial order.

    Especially bloggers can lie because they are unaccountable to anyone or any organization. Some are desperate to be noticed, like the Sandmonkey here who has followed suit with the fascists who inspire him so much, yet claims to be against censoring, when it suits him that is. Doesn’t he realize that it isn’t that hard to change my I.P. address or my handle in order to continue posting, but what’s the use, he will just delete my poignant criticism of the mass-scale moral-ponzy scheme called Zionism.

    I broke the rules of this blog, I ridiculed Israel. So I reap what I sow. Just as Israel will reap what it sows one day too.

    Enjoy the country clubs spa membership while it lasts boys and girls….

  163. This is Sand Ape:

    “Enjoy the country clubs spa membership while it lasts boys and girls….”

    And what are you doing for it to stop besides talking tough?

  164. isreal well destroy by itself leo. nobody has to do anything. no army stand for evor espeshaly one this unmerciful to the others u know.

  165. Why would Israel destroy itself?

  166. Adam B. says:

    “if they treated other humans as equals and lent them money without interest as they do each other.”

    Lol, you havent noticed that the world has moved on since the middle ages, when jews were forced into the money-lending business because they were not allowed to practice any other trade? :D

    “they are immediately branded an anti Semite by the racists”
    “They have finally learned that there is no room for human ethics when they act like pests,”

    Oh, the irony of your ever-present, self-contradictory rationalizations, accusing others of racism, while bunching all jews together in a “they”-box and calling them pests… :D

    “So I reap what I sow. Just as Israel will reap what it sows one day too.”

    So, I guess the palestinians are reaping what they have sown right now? What ridiculous fatalism…! :D

  167. “SO, seems that some persons managed to keep their head on their shulders

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jun/23/stopping-the-bomb-is-what-counts

    MC
    But Le monde does not…..keeping their head on their shoulders, I mean.
    I like their not keeping their cool. At least they have feelings (and French business priorities, of course).
    http://www.lemonde.fr/opinions/article/2009/06/29/iran-la-terreur_1212953_3232.html#ens_id=1190750

  168. “Why would Israel destroy itself?”

    Leo: I’m pretty sure that isn’t “Nony”, its neither her style nor her command of the language.

  169. “Nony” or not I hear this sentiment about Israel self-destructing rather often in certain circles. Yet, when asked nobody could coherently explain why they think so. I also hoped to get an answer this time. Well, no luck for me.

    No other state in entire World will self-destruct, but Israel will. Go figure.

  170. I’ve heard the same argument before but usually either preceeded or followed by the Rothschilds owning the world bla bla bla so its not hard to make sense of the statement once you consider the source.

  171. Yes, I agree, their “arguments” are silly.

    But I still hope somebody, just one, would be able to admit the stupidity of their wishful thinking.

    These guys will have to actually fight for Israel’s destruction and if they do not want to do that anymore, as it would appear, then they will have to forget about Israel’s destruction and all I will be left to say is “Kiss my tokhes, boys and girls”.

  172. The common denominator of 90% of the posters on this blog is hate for Arabs & Muslims with a passion. Complete utter contempt for them while being hypocrites who validate Palestinian ethnic cleansing & displacement of an entire population. Palestinians leave the West bank and they are not ever allowed to ever come back. Only Israel could get away with such crap with a Holocaust card, then people wonder why Rothschild and AIPAC is always mentioned, how funny.

    “Israel’s right to defend itself and to live in peace and security with its neighbours,” – LOL ! Notably absent are any points pertaining to International and Humanitarian Law. This is amplified by the fact that Lieberman himself does not reside in his own country, but in the illegally occupied Palestinian Territory. Even pseudo Copts that have been forced to leave Egypt will side with Israeli Apartheid because the old saying says My enemies enemy is my friend.

    As leo said in #145 – “Blame Jews for trying to get their land back!” By force, by displacing 50 generations. Israel will destroy itself simply because it is a radical militant Zionist entity. History has proven that no belligerent militant society lasts for long. Israel is out of control. You can’t debate with a people who believe in order to go to heaven you must cleanse the land and kill Palestinians. Two wrongs don’t make a right and never did. No matter what your beef is!

    OK everybody, on the count of 3, get ready to proceed to defend the apartheid mayhem that goes against any human decent morals and keep perpetrating your hate for Arabs as well, that happen to be a fifth of the entire worlds population that are Muslims. Talking to you guys is useless!

    You go boys and girls!

  173. Adam B. says:

    “You can’t debate with a people who believe [that] in order to go to heaven you must cleanse the land and kill [all] israelis.”

    /fixed

    “Talking to you guys is useless!”

    Which by default makes you a moron for even trying…! :D

  174. Freddy Rense @ 173,

    “Israel will destroy itself simply because it is a radical militant Zionist entity.”

    And how will it physically work? Would you care to elaborate?

    Oh, and I do not hate anybody. Not even those who are drooling to see me and my people dead. I laugh at and pity delusional fools, though.

  175. LMAO @ “Oh, and I do not hate anybody,” lolol, then why are you displacing these people like cattle Mr. chosen one?

    “Not even those who are drooling to see me and my people dead. I laugh at and pity delusional fools, though.” But you don’t laugh or pity your delusional people that are battle proven experts at genocide and apartheid?” Pffft, Figures!

    There is more racism in your pinky finger than there is in the whole of Arabia…

  176. Adam B. says:

    “LMAO @ “Oh, and I do not hate anybody,” lolol, then why are you displacing these people like cattle Mr. chosen one?”

    Probably because they’d give their right arm to see his throat slit. Probably because they waste no opportunity to rain down missiles or deliver suicidebombers with impunity. Has it ever occured to you that “he” might NOT wish to displace anyone, but is caught by the circumstances as defined by his opponent?

    “There is more racism in your pinky finger than there is in the whole of Arabia…”

    Are you a citizen of the region? Have you ever lived there? Have you ever even visited? There are lots of countries you certainly haven’t been to, that’s for sure!

    Doesn’t it strike you as odd that it’s ALWAYS Sand Ape and his ilk, that use the terms “evil”, “pigs”, “dogs”, “apes”, “monsters”, “nazis”, “vermin” and the like?

    By the way, what’s with the hatred toward pigs, dogs and apes? All three are comparatively smart and social creatures, and one is our closest relative…!

  177. Freddy Rense @ 176,

    You remind me of someone I know – a lot of anger and no making sense what so ever.

    Have a nice day.

  178. Zionists came with destruction and militant terrorism which started with the British and hasn’t stopped ever since. Arabs were just defending themselves from day one against some pretty troubled people. There are just way too many similarities between displaced Jew’s during Hitler’s era and displaced Palestinians in the last 60 years or so. Defend Hitler and Goldamier all you want, who are both definitely rotting in hell with a bottle of bubbly right now. That bitch said there is no such thing as a Palestinian people. I mean how wrong is that? Yes it is true, for some reason or the other, Zionists don’t have that simple belief of human dignity towards others, typical of a militant displacing machine. All you haters can defend them and Hitler all you want. The day you defend the palestinians is the day you stop hating them for being human like you and me, they don’t like the fact someone is kicking them off the land they lived on for centuries. See the irony of not understanding that? Fine, I understand that you guys hate Muslims and Arabs and see them as the scum of the earth but it doesn’t mean you have the right to pick a fight with them and try and take back something that was shared thousands of years ago.

  179. Adam B. says:

    “they don’t like the fact someone is kicking them off the land they lived on for centuries.”
    I’m sure the jews didn’t like it either when the arabs ousted them back in the day… That being said, nobody kicked out the indiginous arabs – they decided to take up arms and were summarily pushed back, losers of the conflict. That’s how war works – taking up arms is risking defeat. Even the possibility of a state of their own (for the first time – a palestinian state has never before existed, hence Golda’s remark) has not been succesful in getting the arabs of the region to put down their weapons.

  180. Jessica says:

    #155 Roman-no serious way..SM deleted something here? That’s not good. He must be smoking some serious shisha.
    What would everyone here do if he never came back? (BTW Roman, did you start a blog yet? If SM quits, where will everyone go?)
    Holy cow, guys..the last time I checked, there were only 15 or so comments:)
    Well, I happen to think SM sucks. He is rude to neglect his readers.

  181. Mr. Adam, so you say the Arabs took up arms eh? Well what did you expect them to do, roll over and take it in the ass? Well of course you did, what a silly question.

  182. Roman Kalik says:

    @Jessica,

    #155 Roman-no serious way..SM deleted something here? That’s not good. He must be smoking some serious shisha.

    Everyone and every place has a line. The lack of such lines is called “anarchy”, and it is precisely in anarchy that Sand Ape would have flourished, simply by being the loudest person with the most time to type his profanities.

    He crossed the line, and dug himself into a pit. It is a state I have seen him enter on several occasions when he did not have an actual answer or argument, but merely more of his circular-logic insult and hate barrages.

    apparently having tried to get me angry or admit my “evil Zionist ways”, and failed, he lost it.

    What would everyone here do if he never came back?

    Find other blogs to read and colonize, I presume. Though I fail to see why SM would leave at this juncture. He had his quiet periods more than once.

    BTW Roman, did you start a blog yet?

    Nope, nor am I likely to. I’ve often evaluated my free time, and what I’d like to do with it… writing my own blog would take away too much of it, and frankly… I don’t actually have much to say of my own initiative. I’m an avid reader of others’ posts, and I do my best to respond to many of them… but that’s that.

    Well, I happen to think SM sucks. He is rude to neglect his readers.

    And I happen to think that SM is an actual human being, and who owes us freebooters nothing. We do not fund his existence, his job does. And nor are we his flesh-and-blood acquaintances, friends, and family. In essence, *we* are the consumers of Sandmonkey’s posts – if he decides he doesn’t want to post anymore, we won’t have an actual say in the matter.

  183. Sand Ape says:

    Guess whose back?

    Roman,

    Sand Ape didn’t cross any line what so ever and wasn’t barred so quite drooling and flattering your self with your cruel rationalizations and fear God and quite talking out of your anus Kalik. How dare you sit there and talk about how wrong half the world is for despising a displaced peoples displacement of another people. i surely pity the Zionists more than I do the poor Palestinians whose deaths are free meal tickets to Zionist heaven (Earth). No matter what is said…if we say Israel pokes the eyes out of little children…you come up with pitiful justifications. Especially after admitting that Israel is far from free of any fault, so how can you sit there and continue to bask in your ridiculous cold calculated rationalizations?

  184. Adam B. says:

    Freddy, no one asked them to.

    We’ve been over this tons of times, but let’s take it again. Before Israel was declard a state, no country existed in it’s place. The general area had been under the heel of several external powerhouses for centuries. Historically, the first still-existing people to claim the land were the israelites, who were later pretty much ousted by invading arabs. Since then, the area has had a turbulent, mainly non-independent existence, untill the british were handed the mandate over the land by the League of Nations after WW1. During this mandate, the israelites decided to reclaim what was once their homeland, and by the first come, first served principle, Israel was accepted by the League of Nations ALONG WITH A NEIGHBOURING PALESTINIAN ARAB STATE. The arabs, however, were not content with this solution – they wanted the lot, no matter what the rest of the world felt, and so they decided to oust the jews yet again. This time it didn’t go quite as they planned.

  185. Roman Kalik says:

    Guess whose back?

    Not Slim Shady, that’s for sure.

    How dare you sit there and talk about how wrong half the world is for despising a displaced peoples displacement of another people.

    Ah, but I speak of nothing of the sort. I believe I have spoken of a different kind of despising altogether. You’re already displaying the most irrational aspects of it once again, so keep up the good work!

    i surely pity the Zionists more than I do the poor Palestinians whose deaths are free meal tickets to Zionist heaven (Earth).

    Ah yes, because there are obviously so many adverts, programs on the radio and TV, and lectures in schools, at home, and at the local religious gathering sites about how killing The Other Guy will be a ticked to heaven.

    Only perhaps you were confused by the similarities between Hebrew and Arabic, and looked into the wrong community?

    No matter what is said…if we say Israel pokes the eyes out of little children…you come up with pitiful justifications.

    You mean, if you something that is based entirely on your far-fetched propaganda, tearing apart the flimsy foundation of this form of “argumentation” is considered giving justification for it?

    Perhaps some reading comprehension lessons are in order?

    Especially after admitting that Israel is far from free of any fault

    No one is free from fault. But the difference between “not free from fault” and “guilty of all Evil made by Man” is a rather large rift, and while I accept that your attempts to bridge that rift are impressive, they are more amusing than based on reality.

    The Jews still rule the world banking system, right? Just checking!

    so how can you sit there and continue to bask in your ridiculous cold calculated rationalizations?

    Because I have some actual rationale on the side of my arguments, whereas you barely have arguments to speak of – merely an endless torrent of declarations, generalizations, and drivel that everyone else is expected to agree to for some reason, regardless of the tenuous grasp of reality you seem to have.

  186. Sand Ape says:

    An example of perfect faulty reasoning:

    “Before Israel was declared a state, no country existed in it’s place.”

    So let’s murder them all & take their homes because they don’t have a declared state, yaay!

    ————————————————————————————————-

    “Because I have some actual rationale on the side of my arguments”

    = KILLING IS FUN & BESIDES, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT YOU STINKING ARABS & MUSLIMS?

    SIGNED LOVE DEMONA

    Nice rationale indeed..

    Oh & BTW, its a fact, more than 50% of the worlds bankers are Jewish. But its not like those facts mean anything to you. After all, you are Jewish and believe deep down in your heart that God gave you a license to kill Arabs & cleanse the land. If you don’t believe this then you are not a true Jew.

    Nuff said!

  187. Roman Kalik says:

    So let’s murder them all & take their homes because they don’t have a declared state, yaay!

    And I assume that, yet again, we must accept the hidden assumption – the Jews murdered the Palestinians and took their homes.

    So far, in this comment section, the only person who actually went to try and justify wholesale murder and genocide was you, not Adam.

    = KILLING IS FUN & BESIDES, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT YOU STINKING ARABS & MUSLIMS?

    So, hidden assumption of the day – Roman the Jew thinks killing is fun, and views Arabs and Muslims as inferior. Roman the Jew thinks this is so because he is a Jew (of course) and a Zionist, and all of them are racists and murderers.

    Obviously the fact that I have never voiced such sentiments and do not hold them is irrelevant – for I am Israeli, and Jewish, and that is enough for a complete analysis of my character.

    In addition, I make these troublesome arguments that give you a headache, and what better way to avoid answering them than to call me a racist murderer, time and time and time again. You can also mention the Holocaust and say how your criticism of the evil murderous Zionist is deflected by mentioning it, while the only person who brought it up here is yourself.

    SIGNED LOVE DEMONA

    Why are you signing your rants with the name of a Disney cartoon character?

    Nice rationale indeed..

    You should know – you just made it up, after all.

    Oh & BTW, its a fact, more than 50% of the worlds bankers are Jewish. But its not like those facts mean anything to you.

    Facts? What facts? Do you realize, even for a second, the sheer number of banks across the world, and the number of Jews employed in banking, least of all high positions in said profession?

    Look, we’ve had this talk about conspiracy theories before. rense.com and its like are not sites where people go to look for facts. It’s where crazy people go to mingle, and everyone else goes to point, stare, and shudder – or occasionally just for a laugh.

    Your “facts” are little more than age-old anti-Semitic propaganda that has aged so much that it has begun to smell.

    After all, you are Jewish and believe deep down in your heart that God gave you a license to kill Arabs & cleanse the land. If you don’t believe this then you are not a true Jew.

    No, Sand Ape. That’s just what *you* believe about Jews, and what you try to use to justify hating Jews.

  188. Sand Ape says:

    “And I assume that, yet again, we must accept the hidden assumption – the Jews murdered the Palestinians and took their homes.”

    Duuuuh, its common sense…millions of displaced Palestinians. Now there are people that have never been seen in that land occupying their lands and farms. the gull of your denial. That what makes you so wicked and obnoxious. LMAO @ “what Palestinian problem?” They are squatters, shooo, shoooo from here! Aghhh

    ” rense.com and its like are not sites where people go to look for facts. It’s where crazy people go to mingle, and everyone else goes to point, stare, and shudder – or occasionally just for a laugh.”

    The same is even more true at the sandmonkey.org

  189. Roman Kalik says:

    Duuuuh, its common sense…millions of displaced Palestinians.

    But of course – you may thank the great Arab League and its united invasion force back in 1948, and the Arab League’s eternal providence from that point onward in making sure that the refugees (whom they greeted in such a friendly manner, and promised that the Jewish Problem in Palestine would soon be swept away)… *stay* refugees.

    And you may also thank Haj Amin il-Husayni and other such… friendly Palestinian leaders of the era, who fully agreed with the Arab League’s plans for an Arab Only Middle-East.

    They failed. Perhaps they should have tried peaceful solutions, like agreeing to that partition plan the UN was waving around?

    The same is even more true at the sandmonkey.org

    Well, ever since you became an active commenter…

  190. Sand Ape says:

    The Arabs didn’t fail, the Middle East ‘IS’ free of Jews. Unless you count the Zionists who would die to be accepted and loved by their neighbours but never will be, they continue to be outcasted bandits living in fear and led by the lust of destruction their short lives. Admit it, if there was no holocaust, there wouldn’t be any illegal Israel or Zionists. So let’s blame the Arabs for Hitler!

  191. Roman Kalik says:

    The Arabs didn’t fail, the Middle East ‘IS’ free of Jews.

    Well, yes, having failed to cleanse them from Israel, you cleansed them from pretty much everywhere else. The king of Morocco and the Shah of Iran were the only exceptions to that rule.

    Unless you count the Zionists who would die to be accepted and loved by their neighbours but never will be, they continue to be outcasted bandits living in fear and led by the lust of destruction their short lives.

    Did… did you just say that Israelis want peace but the Arab states around will never let them have it, instead focusing on war?

    You sure you’re not a fanatical Zionist?

    Admit it, if there was no holocaust, there wouldn’t be any illegal Israel or Zionists. So let’s blame the Arabs for Hitler!

    The Zionist Jews were here long before WWII even started.

  192. Sand Ape says:

    “The Zionist Jews were here long before WWII even started.”

    So why then do you say they were kicked out, duuuuh!

  193. Sand Ape says:

    They have squirmed the earth since ancient times,
    Basking in premeditated crimes,
    Above all mankind, they see their worth,
    Although they too suckled at birth

    Digressing God’s favor from ancient times,
    Instead, ended up owning the New York times,
    Their tidings they twist and try and try,
    To payback God for his stringent ties

    Apocalyptic mayhem in the generals eyes,
    Memories of Warsaw condoning Arab Genocide,
    Eradicating a people as if they were vermin,
    As was done to them when they were hurtin

    A nascent nation sure to fail,
    For the belligerence that prevails,
    Violence always sells and sells,
    So they think they can tell

    Heaven from Hell,
    Blue skies from pain,
    Did we get them to trade,
    Their heroes again,

    Hot ashes for trees?
    Hot air for a cool breeze?
    Cold comfort for change?
    And did you exchange a walk-on part in the war
    for a lead-role in a cage?

    Oh King David, how I wish, how I wish you were here.
    We’re just two lost peoples
    swimming in a fish bowl, year after year,
    Running over the same old ground.
    What have we found? The same old fears.
    Oh King David, I wish you were here.

  194. Marie Claude says:

    Ella,
    since your quoting a french paper, I am entitled to deduct that you understand our language

    At least they have feelings (and French business priorities, of course).

    I have noticed that some of our most bitter bashers are not Americans, neither Brits, but our co-Eu nationalists, and among them,Polish and Italians are the most and very jealous of us, that ‘s also why they were the most diligent shoes polishers to the former american administration, and were very performant in “finding” falsh proofs for our supposed compromission, but that serious specialists deconstructed, (and in the american camp LMAO)
    That’s also why these both governments had to apologize to Chirac, umm the Poles found french missiles, too bad they weren’t manufactured anymore since the first Irak war, that’s also why Chirac said : the Poles missed the opportunity to STFU , LMAO, and the Plame hoax was the italian contribution to undermine us, supposedly that Chirac provided yellow cake to Saddam from the Nigeria mines

    and now, I am stalked by a polish girl who can’t stand us, and elsewhere by an italian girl LMAO

    well, girls get a life !

  195. Sand Ape says:

    MC, lol – dialogue is a waste of time with their likes.

  196. Sand Ape, changing the lyrics to a Pink Floyd song is blasphemy.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QCCz4mtd0E

    So, so you think you can tell
    Heaven from Hell,
    Blue skies from pain.
    Can you tell a green field
    From a cold steel rail?
    A smile from a veil?
    Do you think you can tell?

    Did they get you to trade
    Your heroes for ghosts?
    Hot ashes for trees?
    Hot air for a cool breeze?
    Cold comfort for change?
    Did you exchange
    A walk on part in the war,
    For a lead role in a cage?

    How I wish, how I wish you were here.
    We’re just two lost souls
    Swimming in a fish bowl,
    Year after year,
    Running over the same old ground.
    What have we found
    The same old fears.
    Wish you were here.

  197. Marie Claude says:

    one of their best songs

  198. i luv egypt says:

    Riots in Germany after the racist killing of Egyptian Marwa El Sherbini

    She was pregnant!!!

    http://www.egyptdailynews.com/news%20marwa.htm

  199. A more appropriate one for Sand Ape, methinks:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ze-p4e6rJaM

    Little by little the night turns around
    Counting the leaves which tremble at dawn
    Lotuses lean on each other in yearning
    Under the eaves the swallow is resting
    Set the controls for the heart of the sun

    Over the mountain watching the watcher
    Breaking the darkness
    Waking the grapevine
    knowledge of love is knowledge of shadow
    Love is the shadow that ripens the wine
    Set the controls for the heart of the sun

    Witness the man who raves at the wall
    Making the shape of his question to Heaven
    Whether the sun will fall in the evening
    Will he remember the lesson of giving
    Set the controls for the heart of the sun

  200. Jessica says:

    Roman-

    ” I don’t actually have much to say of my own initiative.”
    Well, honestly..that’s all that any blogger does anyway..comment.
    No man is an I -land
    I’d read it..and that is a compliment..believe me.

    AND I still think SM sucks……
    I QUIT SM!!! DO YOU HEAR THAT?!!
    I QUIT.

  201. Jessica says:

    Roman-

    ” I don’t actually have much to say of my own initiative.”
    Well, honestly..that’s all that any blogger does anyway..comment.
    No man is an I -land
    I’d read it..and that is a compliment..believe me.

    AND I still think SM sucks……
    I QUIT SM!!! DO YOU HEAR THAT?!!
    I QUIT.

  202. The perfect Craig song:

    And an all time favorite of hardcore Pink Floyd fans..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmBiORtHqTs

    The lunatic is on the grass
    The lunatic is on the grass
    Remembering games and daisy chains and laughs
    Got to keep the loonies on the path

    The lunatic is in the hall
    The lunatics are in my hall
    The paper holds their folded faces to the floor
    And every day the paper boy brings more

    And if the dam breaks open many years too soon
    And if there is no room upon the hill
    And if your head explodes with dark forbodings too
    Ill see you on the dark side of the moon

    The lunatic is in my head
    The lunatic is in my head
    You raise the blade, you make the change
    You re-arrange me till Im sane
    You lock the door
    And throw away the key
    Theres someone in my head but its not me.

    And if the cloud bursts, thunder in your ear
    You shout and no one seems to hear
    And if the band youre in starts playing different tunes
    Ill see you on the dark side of the moon

  203. Roman Kalik says:

    So why then do you say they were kicked out, duuuuh!

    Oh, I was referring to the old Jewish communities across the Middle-East – some dating to times of the Babylonian Empire. Those you kicked out long after the Zionists got here, and after they managed to survive your invasion force.

    Over 3,000 of history got erased within a few decades, with people like Saddam Hussein personally supervising the destruction and artifact collection.

  204. “Those you kicked out long after the Zionists got here,”

    Me, kicking them out, are you sure, do you have proof it was me? I will try my best to live up to your stereo type Roman..lol.

  205. Roman Kalik says:

    Me, kicking them out, are you sure, do you have proof it was me? I will try my best to live up to your stereo type Roman..lol.

    My sincerest apologies, I overlooked the individual you and grouped you with the people you identify with nationally and politically. I shall be sure not to repeat this glaring error, just as I am sure that you will never utter such terminology yourself, or even go as far as to attach invented facts to the group in question in a bid to avoid having to give any actual thought to what the people you attach, mentally, to said group have to say.

  206. Sand Ape says:

    It’s up to you to believe me or not RK, but I do kinda of like you. Wasn’t this debate ignited by my complement of you, adding that it was an anomaly that an Israeli could act in such a manner?

    Yet you continue to believe, I attach invented facts.

    I understand full well the situation of the Zionists. If Arabs were in the same exact position, they wouldn’t be able to expel the majority of the populous either, without huge PR plunders and a lot of sugar coating and detraction from the issues at hand, even with all of their oil wealth. It’s simply common sense.

    These are ALL facts Roman,

    THIS IS THE PEACE THAT ISRAEL’S LEADER’S WANT: (

    1. “There is a huge gap between us (Jews) and our enemies ­not just in ability but in morality, culture, sanctity of life, and conscience. They are our neighbors here, but it seems as if at a distance of a few hundred meters away, there are people who do not belong to our continent, to our world, but actually belong to a different galaxy.” Israeli president Moshe Katsav. The Jerusalem Post, May 10, 2001

    2. “The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more”…. Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time – August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000

    3. ” [The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs.” Menahim Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, “Begin and the Beasts”. New Statesman, 25 June 1982.

    4. “The Palestinians” would be crushed like grasshoppers … heads smashed against the boulders and walls.” ” Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

    5. “When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle.” Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces, New York Times, 14 April 1983.

    6. “How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to.” Golda Maier, March 8, 1969.

    7. “There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed.” Golda Maier Israeli Prime Minister June 15, 1969

    8. “The thesis that the danger of genocide was hanging over us in June 1967 and that Israel was fighting for its physical existence is only bluff, which was born and developed after the war.” Israeli General Matityahu Peled, Ha’aretz, 19 March 1972.

    9. David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): “If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti – Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.

    10. Ben Gurion also warned in 1948 : “We must do everything to insure they ( the Palestinians) never do return.” Assuring his fellow Zionists that Palestinians will never come back to their homes. “The old will die and the young will forget.”

    11. “We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves.” Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.

    12. “Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don’t worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it.” – Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001, to Shimon Peres, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio. (Certainly the FBI’s cover-up of the Israeli spy ring/phone tap scandal suggests that Mr. Sharon may not have been joking.)

    13. “We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel… Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours.” Rafael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defense Forces – Gad Becker, Yediot Ahronot 13 April 1983, New York Times 14 April 1983.

    14. “We must do everything to ensure they [the Palestinian refugees] never do return” David Ben-Gurion, in his diary, 18 July 1948, quoted in Michael Bar Zohar’s Ben-Gurion: the Armed Prophet, Prentice-Hall, 1967, p. 157.

    15. “We should prepare to go over to the offensive. Our aim is to smash Lebanon, Trans-Jordan, and Syria. The weak point is Lebanon, for the Moslem regime is artificial and easy for us to undermine. We shall establish a Christian state there, and then we will smash the Arab Legion, eliminate Trans-Jordan; Syria will fall to us. We then bomb and move on and take Port Said, Alexandria and Sinai.” David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

    16. “We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.” Israel Koenig, “The Koenig Memorandum”

    17. “Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population.” Moshe Dayan, address to the Technion, Haifa, reported in Haaretz, April 4, 1969.

    18. “We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?’ Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said ‘Drive them out!’” Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

    19. Rabin’s description of the conquest of Lydda, after the completion of Plan Dalet. “We shall reduce the Arab population to a community of woodcutters and waiters” Uri Lubrani, PM Ben-Gurion’s special adviser on Arab Affairs, 1960. From “The Arabs in Israel” by Sabri Jiryas.

    20. “There are some who believe that the non-Jewish population, even in a high percentage, within our borders will be more effectively under our surveillance; and there are some who believe the contrary, i.e., that it is easier to carry out surveillance over the activities of a neighbor than over those of a tenant. [I] tend to support the latter view and have an additional argument:…the need to sustain the character of the state which will henceforth be Jewish…with a non-Jewish minority limited to 15 percent. I had already reached this fundamental position as early as 1940 [and] it is entered in my diary.” Joseph Weitz, head of the Jewish Agency’s Colonization Department. From Israel: an Apartheid State by Uri Davis, p.5.

    21. “Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements because everything we take now will stay ours… Everything we don’t grab will go to them.” Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

    22. “It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands.” Yoram Bar Porath, Yediot Aahronot, of 14 July 1972.

    23. “Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment… Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly.” Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization, speaking of the Arabs of Palestine, Complete Diaries, June 12, 1895 entry.

    24. “One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail.” — Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, Feb. 27, 1994 [Source: N.Y. Times, Feb. 28, 1994, p. 1]

    25. “We Jews, we are the destroyers and will remain the destroyers. Nothing you can do will meet our demands and needs. We will forever destroy because we want a world of our own.” (You Gentiles, by Jewish Author Maurice Samuels, p. 155).

    26. “We will have a world government whether you like it or not. The only question is whether that government will be achieved by conquest or consent.” (Jewish Banker Paul Warburg, February 17, 1950, as he testified before the U.S. Senate).

    27. “We will establish ourselves in Palestine whether you like it or not…You can hasten our arrival or you can equally retard it. It is however better for you to help us so as to avoid our constructive powers being turned into a destructive power which will overthrow the world.” (Chaim Weizmann, Published in “Judische Rundschau,” No. 4, 1920)

    “We’ll make a pastrami sandwich of them, … we’ll insert a strip of Jewish settlements in between the Palestinians, and then another strip of Jewish settlements right across the West Bank, so that in 25 years’ time, neither the United Nations nor the United States, nobody, will be able to tear it apart.”
    (Ariel (Arik) Sharon, 1973)

    “[T]here is no single fixed method for murder and not even for genocide. The author Y. L. Peretz wrote about “the righteous cat” who does not spill blood, but only suffocates. The government of Israel, using the military and its instruments of destruction, is not only spilling blood, but it is also suffocating. … Of course with our self-righteousness, with our self-adoration in our “Jewish ethics” we make sure to advertise how beautifully the doctors take care of Palestinian victims in the hospitals. We do not advertise how many of those are executed in cold blood in their own homes. So it’s not yet genocide of the terrible and unique style of which we were past victims. And as one of the smart Generals told me, we do not have crematoria and gas chambers. Is anything less than that consistent with Jewish ethics? Did he ever hear how an entire people said that it did not know what was done in its name?”
    (Shulamit Aloni, March 2003)

    “I have learned that the state of Israel cannot be ruled in our generation without deceit and adventurism.”
    (Moshe Shertok, 1950s)

    “. it’s utterly hypocritical for Israelis to wonder aloud why Palestinians don’t pursue a non-violent strategy. One obvious reason is that, whenever they have, Israel brutally represses it.”
    (Norman G. Finkelstein, 11 September 2003)

    “The Promised Land extends from the River of Egypt to the Euphrates. It includes parts of Syria and Lebanon.”
    (Yehudah Leib Fischmann, 1947)

    “Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal Al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population.”
    (Moshe Dayan, 4 April 1969)

    “Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French. It is wrong and inhuman to impose the Jews on the Arabs. What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct. The mandates have no sanction but that of the last war. Surely it would be a crime against humanity to reduce the proud Arabs so that Palestine can be restored to the Jews partly or wholly as their national home. The nobler course would be to insist on a just treatment of the Jews wherever they are born and bred. The Jews born in France are French in precisely the same sense that Christians born in France are French.”
    (Mahatma Gandhi, 26 November 1938)

    “Ours will be a brutal land of pens stretching between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean that will make South African apartheid pale.”
    (Yigal Bronner, 17 September 2003)

    “Arabs in Israel … have no right to serve in the Israel Defense Forces, to marry a Jew in Israel according to the divine law, or even to study in the language of the majority.”
    (Amnon Rubinstein, 18 September 2003)

    ” We live in a thunderously failed reality. … A state lacking justice cannot survive. … Even if the Arabs lower their heads and swallow their shame and anger for ever, it won’t work. A structure built on human callousness will inevitably collapse in on itself. Note this moment well: Zionism’s superstructure is already collapsing like a cheap Jerusalem wedding hall.”
    (Avraham Burg, 15 September 2003)

    “Israel, having ceased to care about the children of the Palestinians, should not be surprised when they come washed in hatred and blow themselves up in the centres of Israeli escapism. They consign themselves to Allah in our places of recreation, because their own lives are torture. They spill their own blood in our restaurants in order to ruin our appetites, because they have children and parents at home who are hungry and humiliated.”
    (Avraham Burg, 15 September 2003)

    “Do you want democracy? No problem. Either abandon the greater land of Israel, to the last settlement and outpost, or give full citizenship and voting rights to everyone, including Arabs. The result, of course, will be that those who did not want a Palestinian state alongside us will have one in our midst, via the ballot box. The prime minister should present the choices forthrightly: Jewish racism or democracy. Settlements, or hope for both peoples.”
    (Avraham Burg, 15 September 2003)

    “Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother.”
    (Moshe Dayan, unknown date)

    “There is no terrible regime – Columbia, Guatemala, Uruguay, Argentina and Chile during the time of the colonels, Burma, Taiwan, Zaire, Liberia, Congo, Sierra Leone – there is not one that does not have a major military connection to Israel. Israeli arms dealers are there [acting as] mercenaries – the guy behind Noriega was Michael Harari, an Israeli, who got out of Panama. Israeli mercenaries in Sierra Leone go around the UN boycotts of what are called blood diamonds, same in Angola. Israel was very involved in South Africa, of course, during the apartheid regime & their nuclear aresenal.”
    (Jeff Halper, 20 September 2003)

    “When AIPAC sells Israel to Congress, it doesn’t go to Congressmen and ask them to support Israel because it is Judeo-Christian, or because it is the ‘only democracy in the Middle East,’ which it also does. It sells it on this basis: ‘You are a member of Congress and it is your responsibility to support Israel, because this is how many industries in your state have business links to Israel, this is how many military research people are sitting in universities in your district, this is how many jobs in your district are dependent on the military and the defence industry,’ and they translate it down to the extent to which your district is dependent on Israel. Therefore, if you are voting against Israel, you are voting against the goose that lays the golden egg. In most of the districts in the United States, members of Congress have a great dependence on the military. More than half of industrial employment in California is in one way or another connected to defence. Israel is right there, right in the middle of it all. And that is part of its strength.”
    (Jeff Halper, 20 September 2003)

    “Israel is very important, because on the one hand it is a very sophisticated, high-tech, arms developer and dealer. But on the other hand, there are no ethical or moral constraints: there is no Congress, there are no human rights concerns, there are no laws against taking bribes – the Israeli government can do anything it wants to. So you have very sophisticated rogue state – not a Libyan rogue state, but a high tech, military-expert rogue state. Now that is tremendously useful, both for Europe and for the United States. For example, there are American Congressional constraints on selling arms to China because of China’s human rights problems. So what Israel does is it tinkers with American arms just enough that they can be considered Israeli arms, and in that way bypasses Congress.”
    (Jeff Halper, 20 September 2003)

    “I was recently at a conference with John Dugard, who is now the Special Rapporteur of the UN Commission on Human Rights for the Occupations Palestinian Territories, and is originally from South Africa. He was (jokingly) offended that apartheid was being maligned [by its comparison the Israeli occupation]. In South Africa you didn’t have apartheid on the roads, you didn’t have walls being constructed.”
    (Jessica Montell, September 21, 2003)

    “We possess several hundred atomic warheads and rockets and can launch them at targets in all directions, perhaps even at Rome. Most European capitals are targets for our air force. … Let me quote General Moshe Dayan: “Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother.” I consider it all hopeless at this point. We shall have to try to prevent things from coming to that, if at all possible. Our armed forces, however, are not the thirtieth strongest in the world, but rather the second or third. We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen, before Israel goes under.”
    (Martin van Creveld, 2003)

    ” We must define our position and lay down basic principles for a settlement. Our demands should be moderate and balanced, and appear to be reasonable. But in fact they must involve such conditions as to ensure that the enemy rejects them. Then we should manoeuvre and allow him to define his own position, and reject a settlement on the basis of a compromise position. We should then publish his demands as embodying unreasonable extremism.”
    (Yehoshafat Harkabi, 2 November 1973)

    “In fact, I cannot think of any other country on earth that, in full view of nightly TV audiences, has performed such miracles of detailed sadism against an entire society and gotten away with it.”
    (Edward Said, September 25, 2003)

    “DiY media analysis: It is relatively easy to locate bias and imbalances in the media. An obvious way into it is to note the language used to describe news actors and assess whether the same words are used for similar actions or behaviours. Look for the language used to describe political stories. Who are the ‘terrorists’?; and who the ‘activists’, ‘fighters’ or ‘guerrillas’? Which governments are described in negative terms as ‘extreme’ or ‘corrupt’ and which in more positive terms? Check which side in a conflict are said to ‘kill’, ‘murder’ or commit ‘massacres’ and which are said simply to ‘respond’, ‘strike’ or commit actions which result in ‘deaths’? Is it always the case that these descriptors are simply factual terms?”
    (David Miller, 2003)

    “Is it conceivable that somebody on our side has decided that all of Palestinian society is the target? … [Israel's] war without questions intensifies and broadens the circles of hatred for generations.”
    (Alex Fishman, October 2003)

    “The depressing truth is that Israel’s current behavior is not just bad for America, though it surely is. It is not even just bad for Israel itself, as many Israelis silently acknowledge. The depressing truth is that Israel today is bad for the Jews.”
    (Tony Judt, 23 October 2003)

    “While Israeli forces were engaged in what many termed a brutal – some even say criminal – campaign to crush Palestinian militants and terrorist cells in West Bank towns, U.S. military officials were in Israel seeing what they could learn from that urban fight.”
    (Christian Lowe, 10 June 2002)

    “[Some people believe] a mistaken claim holding that Zionism’s main rationale was to create a sanctuary for persecuted Jews”
    (David Breakstone, 5 November 2003)

    “The delusions, the self-righteousness, and the disassociation from a hostile world and the distancing from universal norms are symptoms of a society sinking into apartheid, as the South Africans who experienced that descent can attest. The hiding behind anti-Semitism may make an impression on the Europeans, but it will not be long before the ostracism will penetrate the walls of self-righteousness and bring them crashing down.”
    (Meron Benvenisti, 6 November 2003)

    “We have not been seeking peace for twenty-five years — all declarations to that effect have been no more than coloured statements or deliberate lies. There is of course no assurance that we could have made peace with the Arabs if we had wanted to. However, it has to be heavily emphasized that we have not only made no attempts to seek peace, but have deliberately and with premeditation, sabotaged every possibility of doing so.”
    (Yeshayahu Leibowitz, 30 November 1973)

    “The guideline of our policy has always been the idea that a permanent situation of no peace and a latent war is the best situation for us, and that it must be maintained at all costs. … we are becoming stronger year by year in a situation of impending conflict where it is possible that actual fighting may break out from time to time. Such wars will usually be short and the results guaranteed in advance, since the gap between us and the Arabs is increasing. In this way we shall move on from occupation to further occupation. … this criminally mischievous policy has led us into the crisis we are living through today”
    (Yeshayahu Leibowitz, 30 November 1973)

    “The issue of Palestinian refugees resonated with me because I myself was a refugee. … We came to the U.S. in August 1944 as part of a token group of about 1,000 mostly Jewish refugees … In 1987, when I read Simha Flapan’s The Birth of Israel: Myths and Realities, I was so shocked and disbelieving that it took me a second reading of his book to come to terms with what he wrote at the outset: that the 1948 war was as needless and unnecessary for the “security” of Israel as was the Israeli invasion of Lebanon of 1982. I learned that … the 1948 war was not defensive, but a war to gain more territory than the U.N. had allotted for the Jewish state and to “cleanse” the area of Palestinian Arabs. I learned that even before the May 15 invasion by Arab armies, Jewish forces had succeeded in expelling some 300,000 Palestinians from their homes, but another 400,000 Palestinians remained in areas that the Jews coveted. Since the Jewish population of Palestine in 1948 was only about 600,000, the Ben-Gurion leadership required war in order to rid the new Jewish state of most of its Arab population.”
    (Ronald Bleier, November 1992)

    “Indeed, the most pernicious aspect of a political philosophy like Zionism that masquerades as democratic is that it requires an enemy in order to survive and, where an enemy does not already exist, it requires that one be created. In order to justify racist repression and dispossession, particularly in a system purporting to be democratic, those being repressed and displaced must be portrayed as murderous and predatory. And in order to keep its own population in line, to prevent a humane people from objecting to their own government’s repressive policies, it requires that fear be instilled in the population: fear of “the other,” the terrorist, fear of the Jew-hater. The Jews of Israel must always be made to believe that they are the preyed-upon. This justifies having forced these enemies to leave, it justifies discriminating against those who remained, it justifies denying democratic rights to those who later came under Israel’s control in the occupied territories.”
    (Kathleen Christison, 8 November 2003)

    “I think that everyone who lives with the contradictions of Zionism condemns himself to protracted madness. It’s impossible to live like this. It’s impossible to live with such a tremendous wrong. It’s impossible to live with such conflicting moral criteria. When I see not only the settlements and the occupation and the suppression, but now also the insane wall that the Israelis are trying to hide behind, I have to conclude that there is something very deep here in our attitude to the indigenous people of this land that drives us out of our minds.”
    (Haim Hanegbi, 8 August 2003)

    “We don’t have unlimited time … More and more Palestinians are uninterested in a negotiated, two-state solution, because they want to change the essence of the conflict from an Algerian paradigm to a South African one. From a struggle against ‘occupation,’ in their parlance, to a struggle for one-man-one-vote. That is, of course, a much cleaner struggle, a much more popular struggle – and ultimately a much more powerful one. For us, it would mean the end of the Jewish state.”
    (Ehud Olmert, November 2003)

    “If you look at the drive for a two-state solution in the past, it was always to prevent conflict. What is becoming more prevalent is that people are saying we have to do it because if we don’t we’re going to end up with a bi-national state. … If you look at all the surveys of public opinion, the one issue that unites the Jewish population of Israel is that more than 90 per cent say they want to retain a Jewish majority. The problem of the right wing is that they want a Greater Israel including the occupied territories, without any withdrawal. The irony is by doing that they invite a bi-national state.”
    (David Newman, November 2003)

    “The life of the Palestinians has indeed become hell. Most of them live below the poverty line, many on the threshold of hunger, some in an actual state of hunger. Hundreds of thousands of Palestinian children suffer from malnutrition. Every village has become a prison camp, completely surrounded by roadblocks. Traffic is well-nigh impossible. Many Palestinians cannot reach their place of work, hospital, university or school or bring their produce to market. Israeli troops prowl in the towns and villages, demolishing homes, arresting or killing activists and, at the same time, women and children, too. The distant sound of an airplane engine is enough for the whole population to hold their breath.”
    (Uri Avnery, 14 November 2003)

    “it is permissible to lie for the sake of the Land of Israel”
    (Yitzhak Yizernitzky, unknown date)

    “Without lies, it would be impossible to talk about peace with the Palestinians for 36 years while at the same time seizing more and more Palestinian land. Without lies, it would be impossible to claim that there is no partner for the road map, while at the same time injecting more and more money into outposts that the road map calls for dismantling. Without lies, it would be impossible to promise “painful concessions” in exchange for peace, while at the same time terming people who concluded such an agreement “traitors.”"
    (Akiva Eldar, 24 November 2003)

  207. Roman Kalik says:

    I understand full well the situation of the Zionists. If Arabs were in the same exact position, they wouldn’t be able to expel the majority of the populous either, without huge PR plunders and a lot of sugar coating and detraction from the issues at hand, even with all of their oil wealth.

    Um… yes… of course… except that… you know… they did actually do it, when they expelled Jews from across the Middle-East, and managed to get away with it without so much as a by-your-leave. The only exceptions were Morocco and Iran.

    It’s simply common sense.

    No, it’s simply you trying to digest decades of spoon-fed propaganda in your head, with actual facts in the field. So far you have not managed to find ample correlation between the two, so you attack the facts.

    These are ALL facts Roman,

    THIS IS THE PEACE THAT ISRAEL’S LEADER’S WANT: (

    You don’t actually read what you quote, do you. Of course not, it having spread across hate-sites and Arab-nationalist sites (often little difference between the two) after it was originally posted on http://whatreallyhappened.com/

    What Really Happened is a conspiracy theory haven, Sand Ape. It published everything and anything starting with “The Truth About 9/11″, JFK’s assassination, Martin Luther King’s assassination, The Illuminati, Jewish aspirations for world dominance, and the evil of religions.

    It where the tin-foil hat brigade went to live after it married the Ku-Klux-Klan.

    What I see before me, in those quotes, is a selection of misinformation, actual inventions, changed words in real quotes, deliberate out-of-context usage, and direct racism – because you did notice that the “quotes” mentioned here aren’t just about Israel, right Sand Ape? Some are about the so-called inherent hatred Jews have, and others of Illuminati and Elders of Zion style world domination.

    Perhaps I’ll even go on a quote-by-quote refutation when I have the time. As a rule, though, Sand Ape, copy-pasting from propaganda sites doesn’t help your case. It just further shows your unwillingness to present actual arguments of your own, or reply to those of others.

  208. Sand Ape says:

    Pffffffttttt.

    Propoganda, Is that the best you could do?

  209. Roman Kalik says:

    As I said, Sand Ape, I will likely present you with a quote-by-quote analysis. But as it stands? Yes, propaganda, absolutely. http://whatreallyhappened.com/ is not a source of factual information, it’s a repository of conspiracy theories and politically-driven misinformation.

    Only marginally better than rense.com

  210. Sand Ape says:

    Prove it!!!!!

    ———

    These are all facts taken from Israeli newspapers etc.

  211. Adam B. says:

    SA:

    “An example of perfect faulty reasoning:

    “Before Israel was declared a state, no country existed in it’s place.”

    So let’s murder them all & take their homes because they don’t have a declared state, yaay!”

    Uh no… How did you arrive to that conclusion?

    On the contrary, you insist on the right of the palestinian arabs to do exactly that to the israelis, and when the tables are turned you have no qualms whatsoever of applauding the very phillosophy that you assign to others and then condemn them for.

    But alas – we have time and again proven that you live in a fantasy world, where different rules apply to different people… :D

  212. Mohamed says:

    Sand Ape,
    Watch out, Roman’s going to “represent you with a quote by quote analysis”, really? Unless you’re working on a Phd dissertation on the subject Roman, you must have an infinite supply of time to waste bro. I loved your use of the word “analysis” however, tells a lot about your hyper bloated sense of importance and intellect, very Craigyesque by the way.
    Speaking of Craig and his perfect song, a more suitable one would be Pigs on the wing or anything from Animals. And Craig, the real blasphemy, is you listening to Pink Floyd man, please don’t do this to me, even your one celled brain should have realized from their lyrics how much they specifically despise people like you, stick to Toby Kieth and Billy Ray Cyrus or some other turd please.

  213. Well, I thought we were discussing the Iranian conflict and somehow we end up arguing about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. What a bore you’all

  214. Sand Ape says:

    I know Mohamed, it’s crazy as fuck!

    They live in a fantasy world then say have the audacity to say that we do, he he. One minute they admit that Israel is only doing back the same evil that was done to it, then the next they say, errr, we never said such a thing.

    Talk about some seriously messed up people eh?

  215. Roman Kalik says:

    @Diana,

    Well, I thought we were discussing the Iranian conflict and somehow we end up arguing about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. What a bore you’all

    Unfortunately, whatever has been happening lately in Iran has seemingly ended – and the regime won. With the lack of further posts on the matter from Sandmonkey, we have little more to say on this matter.

    @Mohammed,

    Unless you’re working on a Phd dissertation on the subject Roman, you must have an infinite supply of time to waste bro.

    We’re talking about a few dozen quotes here, Mohammed, most of them with source cited to vouch for their supposed authenticity. Incidentally, I fail to see what a dissertation for a Doctorate in Philosophy has to do with any of this, but if you feel that the effort of looking up a few dozen quotes equals to the work of several months, then I wouldn’t be writing a thesis any time soon, if I were you.

    I loved your use of the word “analysis” however, tells a lot about your hyper bloated sense of importance and intellect, very Craigyesque by the way.

    *shrug* I’ll be sure to use small words that even you can understand, should you require it.

    @Sand Ape,

    They live in a fantasy world then say have the audacity to say that we do, he he. One minute they admit that Israel is only doing back the same evil that was done to it, then the next they say, errr, we never said such a thing.

    No, Sand Ape. You have claimed, time and time and time again, in reference to some kind of crock psychology analysis that seems to stem from deep cognitive dissonance, that the Evil Zionists are merely the inheritors of Evil Nazis.

    No one has ever agreed with you on this matter, unless you count yourself as another entity.

    Talk about some seriously messed up people eh?

    Indeed. You are, after all, an expert on messed-up people.

  216. And Craig, the real blasphemy, is you listening to Pink Floyd man, please don’t do this to me, even your one celled brain should have realized from their lyrics how much they specifically despise people like you…

    A guy who spends all his time preaching hate and distributing malicious propaganda is talking about what kind of people the members of Pink Floyd would despise? Bleh :p

    That’s not even worthy of rebuttal.

  217. EgyPeter says:

    I absolutely love Pink Floyd!

  218. Adam B. says:

    SA:

    Clearly, you fail to discern between historic argumentative reasoning and

    As most of our responses are to your rather incoherent rants, our “answers” must neccesarily take on the same unstructured form…

    A prime argument from your side is that “arabs have historically lived on this land. Hence the land is theirs to have and to hold, and the jews are just squatters, who have elbowed themselves in and taken what belonged to the arabs”. The counter-argument is pretty straightforward: The arabs are themselves outsiders, who settled a land that up untill their arrival had been the homeland of the jews (the first people to settle the land who are still around to lay claim to it) and the jews have every right to claim back their property.

    While your view on the matter is pretty straightforward and lopsided – kick out the jews and hand everything over to the arabs – most of us try to see the a golden middle way, as indeed did the League of Nations back in 48. Israel/Palestine is a multicultured area, and the people living there are just going to have to learn to share.

    Like in the present day, the arabs back in 48 would have none of it, and decided to start a war to get rid of the jews. When you start a war, you run the risk of losing, and for all intents and purposes the arabs lost the war against Israel; they just refuse to accept it, thus provoking a continued state of unrest, forcing the israelis to take steps to protect themselves. It can be argued whether these steps are adequate or appropriate (as indeed many jews and westerners do, unlike the arabs, who completely fail to recognize their own part in their plight), but the fact remains that arabs started this conflict, arabs continue to pour fuel on the fire, and consequently arabs will have to accept the consequences. As long as arabs keep up the armed struggle they must expect israeli retalliation; if you give someone a slap in the face, expect to get a slap right back.

  219. Adam B. says:

    That should have read “…immediate practical reasoning.” at the end of the first sentence.

  220. As of 1685 the were practically no Arabs and especially Muslims in Palestine with exception of occasional beduins.

    Google this traveler’s book:

    “Palaestina ex Monumentis Veteribus Illustrata” by Hadriani Relandi (published in 1714).

    It is in Latin but it has translation(s).

    Interestingly enough Mark Twain says practically the same thing 200 years later.
    Although being Mark Twain he uses belletristic way of introducing things as opposed to that Italian scientist of 18th century.

  221. “Who said the land was the Jews to start off with….GOD? That is strange butt face since you say you are an atheist ha ha ha ha.”

    As far as I am concerned, nobody said that.

    Jews believe it to be their ancient land and History conforms.
    Jews believe Arabs are current occupiers of Jewish land and History conforms with that too.

    So, what’s you point, Vanessa? Do you really have to hide behind god every time you have no legitimate argument to offer?

  222. Interesting what is happening in China now between the ethnic Chinese and the muslim Uighurs. I remember discussions here a few years ago where people debated how the Chinese would deal with a muslim rebellion. Well, now we will see!

  223. let us learn from Ghandi & other peaceful legends. Israel has forfeited its right to exist side by side in the Arab lands until they fall on their knees and beg forgiveness.

    That’s the lesson of Ghandi? :D

  224. Adam B. says:

    SA:

    Many of Ghandi’s ideas are certainly to be emulated, but unfortunately to do that you need an adversary who actually cares about human lives and their own reputation and actually believe in such a thing as human decency. The palestinian arabs have a nasty tendency of dxisregarding all these things – going the Ghandi-way would be tantamount to suicide…

    I have never claimed that God gave Israel to the jews; I just pointed out that historically, the first still existing people to inhabit the area in question were the jews. In theory, everyone else are squatters. The idea about pointing this out to you is NOT to bolster the israeli claim to the region but to show that your claim on the part of the arabs is just as ludicrous. Yes, the same can be said of Australia and the US, but it just so happens to be a bit too late to evacuate everyone else from these continents – instead they are going to have to learn to live together in harmony. Hopefully some day so will the israeli and palestinians…

    “WELL START SHARING THEN”

    The only ones NOT willing to share are the arabs. Who was it that rejected the idea of the state of Israel back in 48 and continues to do so untill this day?

    “each side saying the other wants to totally cleanse the land of the other.”

    Are the arabs saying that? At the same time as they’re claiming the existence in Israel’s of an arsenal of nuclear weapons? Flawed logic, don’t you think?

    “WHO STARTED THIS MENACE of recent times. Was it not the Jews.”

    No. The area was split into two countries for two different cultural groups, but one of these groups would have none of it and tried to eradicate the other. This group was NOT the israelis…

  225. SM; I think you should retire this blog .It looks like the Egyptian system has managed to silence great number of interesting blogs, and SM is taking that road. Bye

  226. Hence your making of these inCraigulous collage’s.

    I thought your comment only merited a one line response, Sand Ape. You call a single sentence a “collage”? Or is that just you trying to sound like Jesse Jackson?

  227. Adam B. says:

    SA:

    I fail to see how you can refer to my posts in your reply to leo; I do not claim any interference from God (notice how the word God is missing in the quote you provide?) but merely point out that, as far as existing cultural groupings are concerned, the jews were the first people to settle the area in question. According to your own logic, they have every right to throw out anyone else living there – it’s their land after all. Still, that’s not what is being proposed – on the contrary, a two state solution was the original solution (and still is) but unfortunately the arabs living there (and all others for that matter) decided there was no reason to share AT ALL. This attitude is not very conducive to understanding, particularly when they insist on violently dragging everyone else into their conflict.

    “that before there were two countries, there were Zionist terror groups that were successful displacing & murdering machines”

    I can easily imagine a few freaks on the israeli side (even today we have the likes of Baruch Goldstein) but they were few and far between. The same can be said of the arab side, at least up untill 1948, when they decided to kill or evict every single jew living in the area.

    “Israel is the instigator and always will be the one at fault.”

    In jarring contrast to the Hamas claim that they will never accept an israeli nation. And to the fact that Israel accepted the 1947 United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine, while the arabs rejected it and declared war.

    “It’s taller and longer than the Berlin Wall. ”

    Funny… The Berlin wall was built to keep a nation of prisoners in; the israeli wall is built to keep a nation of enemies out. See the difference?

    “separating Palestinian farmers from their land, children from their schools and families from each other.”

    Or more to the point “murderers from their intended victims”… Still, I’ll give you this – that wall should have been built entirely on the israeli side of the border!

  228. Hey Mahmoud shit face do my words hurt you so much to the point where you have to keep blocking me, you loser? says:

    *******************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************——————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————-

    So its too late to remove the white man from from native American lands eh, even after a mere few hundred years. Well it is way too late to remove the Arabs as well especially after several thousand of years and the advent of two major religions over there. So live with it.

    Such biased and faulty logic due to your own inhibitions and personal experiences!
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Your argument is that only a few rogue terrorists are to blame on each side, yet many of you have chosen your side due to personal preferences, in spite of the double standard faulty logic that I mentioned.

    God is a !@#$% genius, playing the waiting game, having had a plan all along. By the year 2050 Muslims will be the majority religion world wide, especially in the West. They wont even have to lift a finger in oreder to be victorious. So please take good care of your health so that you may live that long and I may remind you then. It’s all down hill from there.

    Unless the Muslims suffer a Holocaust in the west and on their own lands like the Jews did,. which would make their resolve even stronger.

    Check out the Muslim demographics:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  229. “Well it is way too late to remove the Arabs as well especially after several thousand of years and the advent of two major religions over there. So live with it.”

    Actually, it is being done even as we speak. Nothing is too late and anything can be done. Most of the occupiers were chased off after centuries of illegal rule. Cannot see why you should get special dispensation.

  230. So its too late to remove the white man from from native American lands eh, even after a mere few hundred years.

    It took almost 800 years for the Spaniards to eject the Arabs, Sand Ape. And they were nowhere near as nice about it as the Jews of Israel are. Just saying.

  231. Adam B. says:

    SA:

    Let’s take it once again – how many times do you need to have it explained…?!?

    “So its too late to remove the white man from from native American lands eh, even after a mere few hundred years. Well it is way too late to remove the Arabs as well especially after several thousand of years and the advent of two major religions over there. So live with it.”

    Yes, it’s too late, just as it’s too late for the jews to throw everyone else out of what was ancient Judea. Which is why, when it became apparent that the arabs weren’t going to settle with sharing a country with the jews, TWO countries were suggested by the League of Nations – Israel and Palestine. The jews accepted the divide; the arabs didn’t. By the way, noone seemed to think about the christian minority in the area – why weren’t they alloted their own land as well? Oh well…

    “Your argument is that only a few rogue terrorists are to blame on each side, yet many of you have chosen your side due to personal preferences, in spite of the double standard faulty logic that I mentioned.”

    My argument was that, prior to the war of 48, hostilities between jews and arabs were rather few and far between. Since the advent of the joint arab attack on Israel, arab hostility has been widespread and lopsided to the extreme, and their methods have been on a totally different level compared to their jewish counterparts. In addition, unlike the jews, they have consistently demanded the utter annihilation of the jewish state. This is why many of us have taken sides in this conflict. That, and the arab tendency to kill outsiders with little or no discrimination…!

    “By the year 2050 Muslims will be the majority religion world wide, especially in the West. ”

    Doubtfully. Islam is presently growing because islamic refugees/guestworkers (how come there are so many people fleeing muslim countries?) are flooding the western world and, culturally, it will take a few generations for these newcomers to adjust to the modern world, while enjoying all the benefits of these modern societies from the get-go. In other words, it’ll take a few generations before muslim refugees/immigrants have adjusted their birth rate to correspond to the health level of their new countries. When they do, the amount of muslims in the world will stagnate, with the added bonus of more muslims recieving a reasonable education and the intellectual ability to question their religion.

    If I’m wrong and you’re right, I’m afraid the world is heading towards some serious shit, making this quote:

    “It’s all down hill from there.”

    …pretty much the only sensible thing you’ve said on this blog so far!

  232. Hey Mahmoud shit face do my words hurt you so much to the point where you have to keep blocking me, you loser? says:

    Thanks for finally admitting the obvious leo & Craig…

    “Well it is way too late to remove the Arabs as well especially after several thousand of years and the advent of two major religions over there. So live with it.”

    Actually, it is being done even as we speak. Nothing is too late and anything can be done. Most of the occupiers were chased off after centuries of illegal rule. Cannot see why you should get special dispensation.

    232.Craig Says:
    July 8th, 2009 at 3:45 pm
    So its too late to remove the white man from from native American lands eh, even after a mere few hundred years.

    NUFF SAID!
    BEAUTIFUL,, THANK YOU, YOU MADE MY DAY!

  233. Wow, quoting my quoting of you. I’m getting a headache now, which probably also makes your day, right?

    Of course it isn’t too late to get rid of the “white man” from native American lands, Sand Ape. You can take up arms and give it a shot any time you like. There’s nothing stopping you. Obviously common sense and survival instinct are no barrier, in your case. Why not give it a go? What’s the worst that could happen?

  234. Hey Mahmoud shit face do my words hurt you so much to the point where you have to keep blocking me, you loser? says:

    For Israel and all its advocates, it is the ultimate debacle for anyone to attempt to debate the Palestinian Israeli conflict without conceding to the fact that the path to build Israel was cleared by the Jewish terrorists of 1948, such as the Haggana and many other in-discriminant displacing machines.

    Terrorism only harbors terrorism.

    Israel could be the kindest sweetest nation in the world but there will never be peace until this fact is not continuously smudged out from recent history by various parties and coalitions such as the AIPAC. Therefore Israel is a terrorist state that is founded on terrorism.

    Colonial era occupiers such as Britain, France, Italy and Portugal have all apologized for their colonialism in the past and have admitted that it was tyrannical of them to occupy other lands and that the world has come a long way since then. This in a hope that they would become admonished and fully exonerated from any blame from future generations.

    Therefore based on this fact alone, there is no validity to any argument that Israel was given to Jews by Britain when in fact they have already acknowledged the fact that they were occupiers that had no right to be there in the first place.

    Therefore modern day Israel has absolutely no right to exist as it was never Britain’s in the first place to give to anyone.

    End of Discussion.

    Oh, and again I couldn’t help but to thank you again for admitting :

    “Well it is way too late to remove the Arabs as well especially after several thousand of years and the advent of two major religions over there. So live with it.”

    Actually, it is being done even as we speak. Nothing is too late and anything can be done. Most of the occupiers were chased off after centuries of illegal rule. Cannot see why you should get special dispensation.

    232.Craig Says:
    July 8th, 2009 at 3:45 pm
    So its too late to remove the white man from from native American lands eh, even after a mere few hundred years.

    Wonderful news!

  235. Actually, I guess the worst that could be happen is that you’ll be dead. Which is pretty bad. But on the bright side, the cops may be too busy laughing to shoot you down, in which case you’d most likely end up in an institution for the criminally insane, which might do you a world of good. So look at it as a win-win, right?

  236. Adam B. says:

    SA:

    One more time…

    Before 1948 there was no country in what is today Israel and Palestine, at least not for thousands of years; merely a province in various occupying regimes. In the area lived a hodgepodge of cultures; among others arabs, christians and jews, of which the latter were the original historic “owners” of the land.

    In the early 20th century the jews decided to proclaim a state of their own, and in 1947 the League of Nations agreed to split the area into two countries, Israel and Palestine, since the local arabs (proxies of powerful arab neighbours in Cairo and Damaskus) refused to become citizens in an israeli state. The land was divided (relatively) evenly between the two countries (80% of the land was the property of the government rather than the people living in the area) so very few cases of displacements were neccesary. Still the arabs refused to accept a non-muslim state in the ME and the rest is history…

    Israel was given to the jews by the only power in control of the area (The League of Nations) as was Palestine to the arabs. Neither has more or less validity or right to exist than the other.

  237. Sand Ape,

    What gets you going? No, really?

    If you believe you can stay just because you occupied the land long time ago why can’t I kick you out exactly for the same reason? What is so special about you that you cannot be touched?

  238. Hey Mahmoud shit face do my words hurt you so much to the point where you have to keep blocking me, you loser? says:

    Hey dweeb crock Craig. I have been pointing out the ruinous faulty logic of those that think they can take back lands that centuries have passed over. So get it through your think head and quite trying to be the prince of combobulated reverse psychology. When you are just in fact a toad!

    In the end, losers, thanks again for admitting that Israel has no problem forcibly taking the land back. Thanx fro spoiling years of Zionist hush hush propaganda, indeed!

    Again pastry boy, you still have no case.

    “Israel was given to the Jews by the only power in control of the area (The League of Nations) as was Palestine to the Arabs. ((((Neither has more or less validity or right to exist than the other”)))))

    You just contradicted yourself again for the twelfth millionth time.

    If it wasn’t any nations to start off with then they can’t give it away to start off with, so again you have no case!

    Roman,

    Come on, are you stuck on that PhD. Don’t try too hard, just use the same false facts that are used on this blog. But honestly, you know as well as I know, that these truths are the ones that are so quickly removed from mainstream sites and Israel can’t retort shit as they actually take pride in this Nazi equivalent right wing mentality, especially since Israel claims to be a spartan like military state. Israel would love to prove the righteous world wrong but can’t. All they respect is force throughout the ages. Read of the Jewish destiny on earth and weep! It doesn’t matter that half the Jews are slackers and aren’t Hitler reprimanded style Jews. tell that to the other half that are the ruling elite. The same is true with all religions. Just toooo bad for everybody.

    I don’t know how long I can keep changing my static IP address at work without getting busted and keep MAC Cloning my home computer (too high tech for you inbred folks, Craig go to Wiki your master to explain) as it has become completely arduous.

    lolol Genghis khan and Hitler and Pharoah, all oppressors made a league of nations and let Hitler slaughter Jews lololol. Nice reasonong guys ha ha ha ha to the bank!

  239. Your real IP is hidden from outside world. Why do you feel you need to change it? And why are cloning MAC all the time too? Do you even know what cloning of MAC is for? You sound like somebody who just learned the term, but did not understand what it is.

  240. Hey Mahmoud shit face do my words hurt you so much to the point where you have to keep blocking me, you loser? says:

    I never said my real IP was visible, although you are wrong and it is visible. Your IP is what identifies you on word press moron. changing it easily allows you to avoid the spam filter if you change your handle email etc. MAC cloning basically means faking your IP through your router biotch! I was expecting Craig to point that out after I wrote MAC cloning ‘my computer’ but all that is irrelavent because Israel is doing a fine job forcibly taking the land back as you and Craig have admitted, putting Adam in the shitter.

    Even if I don’t understand shit about computers, just stick to the issue at hand buster! You indirect prodigy of Hitler HAHA! Admit it, you just can’t help. Still laughing all the way to the bank!

    Lolol Genghis khan and Hitler and Pharoah, all oppressors made a league of nations and let Hitler slaughter Jews lololol. Nice reasonong guys ha ha ha ha

  241. Hey Mahmoud shit face do my words hurt you so much to the point where you have to keep blocking me, you loser? says:
  242. Hey Mahmoud shit face do my words hurt you so much to the point where you have to keep blocking me, you loser? says:

    Thank God we are becoming stronger and more and more people are waking up.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spXA7GrOcLU&annotation_id=annotation_63975&feature=iv

  243. Hey Mahmoud shit face do my words hurt you so much to the point where you have to keep blocking me, you loser? says:
  244. “taking the land back”

    “back” is the key word here. I see nothing wrong with that. If everybody else has the right to get rid of occupiers/colonizers, why should Jews be denied this right? What are you, some kind of anti-Semite or something? I am sure you are better than that.

  245. Adam B. says:

    SA:

    You’re really trying hard to live up to your ape-monicker, huh? At least intelligence-wise…!

    “If it wasn’t any nations to start off with then they can’t give it away to start off with, so again you have no case!”

    Moronic… If that was the case then ALL nations in this world are illegitimate. Talk about contradicting yourself…! :D

    Let’s take it for the umpteenth time, shall we?

    - The area in question was once the kingdom of Judea, the ancient homeland of the jews. No discussion.
    - Judea was invaded and “colonized” by the roman empire. No discussion.
    - The area in question has, since the roman empire, been handed on from one outside conquerer to the next, never having achieved independence. No discussion.
    - The latest outside force to control the area in question was Britain (as a proxy for the League of Nations) after having taken it from the Ottoman empire during WW1. No discussion.
    - The British “inherited” close to 80% of the land, which was owned by the Ottoman empire, not locals. No discussion.
    - The colonial days were over, and Britain had no reason to stay in the area, so it was decided that the area was to be handed over to the locals. Because of apparent unreconcilable differences, two states were decided upon; one mainly for the jews and one mainly for the muslims. the land under british control was divided relatively evenly between the two parties. No discussion.
    - The arabs refused to accept a jewish state in the middle east and decided to start a war to kill or evict every jew in the area; a war which they have for all intents and purposes lost. No discussion.
    - Peace is the area is subject to the mutual acceptance of the legitimacy of both parties. So far, the arabs have shown little in the way of such acceptance, thus continuing the cycle of hostility and retalliation. No discussion.

    As I have often stated, both sides have faults; the arabs refuse (with continued violence as a result) to accept the state of Israel and the israelis refuse (with continued arab anger as a result) to stay behind the borders as defined by the UN. Although both sides need to look inward and rethink their actions, there is no doubt in my mind as to which party bears the greatest blame for the current situation.

  246. Hey Mahmoud shit face do my words hurt you so much to the point where you have to keep blocking me, you loser? says:

    it was not the kingdom of judea it was where abraham lived long before he gave birth to his two offspring Isaac and ishmael who later became known as tyhe Jews, Christians and Muslims. No discussion.

    Biased at best to say its OK for Jews to take back lands that wasnt theres to begin with, but had merely settled on, but its not OK for other peoples to do so. No discussion.

    P.S. You are dead wrong here: ” The arabs refused to accept a jewish state in the middle east and decided to start a war to kill or evict every jew in the area; a war which they have for all intents and purposes lost.”
    It was the other way around, the Irgun haggana murderers that wanted to kill all people, including Arabs, Muslims, Christians, the British etc. Nice try though, NOT!

    osama bin laden and al qaida are the natural evolution to answer Irgun, haggana, IDF. No discussion!

    Enough with foreign meddling. No discussion.

  247. Hey Mahmoud shit face do my words hurt you so much to the point where you have to keep blocking me, you loser? says:

    The taliban cut opium production by 80% since illegal opium was considered against Islam. Now with the Western backed new government opium has returned again on the large scale. So ask yourselves, who brings Opium to you, the so called terrorists or your western governments?

  248. Roman Kalik says:

    Well, Sand Ape… I did say I’d get back to you regarding that set of quotes you dug up from conspiracy theory websites. Here we go.

  249. Roman Kalik says:

    Hmm… my comment got flagged as spam. I guess it was a bit too big, so I need to find somewhere to put the text and link to it.

  250. Hey dweeb crock Craig. I have been pointing out the ruinous faulty logic of those that think they can take back lands that centuries have passed over.

    I decided to take you up on it when you were being sarcastic, because I don’t think it is faulty logic at all. If it was both practical (meaning possible) and beneficial for Native Americans to try to get the Americas back (which includes a lot more than the United States) you can be sure that at least some of them would want to. Likewise, if it was both practical and beneficial for berbers to try to get North Africa back from the Arabs, you can be sure that some of them would want to. And likewise, of it was both practical and beneficial for Greeks to try to get Asia Minor back from the Turks, you can be sure that some of them would want to. And so on.

    And look at the Kurds… they want Kurdistan back, even though it isn’t either practical *or* beneficial.

  251. Roman Kalik says:

    Right, having fought bravely with formatting issues I have finally won – here’s the link to my conclusions from the above-posted quotes: https://docs.google.com/View?id=ddtjgtmp_44c79z2zgc

    Didn’t spend that much time on it, really, though some of the more obscure matters required help with translations.

  252. Roman Kalik says:

    I never said my real IP was visible, although you are wrong and it is visible. Your IP is what identifies you on word press moron. changing it easily allows you to avoid the spam filter if you change your handle email etc. MAC cloning basically means faking your IP through your router biotch!

    Your work IP is invisible to the outside world if where you work, like most business in the ever shrinking address range of IPv4 today, makes use of a NAT. At which point all internal addresses are entirely localized and routed inside the intranet, and the outside world only sees the external address of the NAT-aware router or firewall – it’s a nice way not to pay for an address range, and you get some security benefits, but it’s basically a hack-job on the TCP/IP stack to extend the lifetime of IPv4. Plays havok with accessing applications that are beyond the intranet.

    Of course, it could be that you work for a place that managed to lease IPv4 address ranges back when they were cheap (about 20-30 years ago), at which point changing your IP becomes worthwhile, or a publicly-owned institution that participated in the ARPANET and NSFNET projects and thus got to hold a big chunk of the net-pie… meaning a university. So you’re a student, eh?

    As for changing your MAC address at home, that’s just how your ISP identifies your PC. Other than being a form of masquerading as vendor equipment (once upon a time, some silly people relied on vendor-owned MAC address ranges for security purposes), and thus attempting to elude ISP records for criminal purposes (doesn’t work, as you still use a username they grant you to gain access in the first place, but some people think they’re clever), you can get a different IP address from your ISP if it has a semi-static address policy – meaning binding the IP you get when you connect to your PC MAC address to give you the same address unless the timed lease they give you runs out, be it through inactivity or them just needing the address for someone else when you happened to have been offline.

    Amusing. What criminals do to hide their identity, you do circumvent bans and spam filters.

  253. Adam B. says:

    SA:

    “it was not the kingdom of judea”

    Judea was the last sovereign state in the area in question. It might not have been the first, but it’s the first with a living people still walking this earth. In other words, the last official, legitimate owners if you really want to be anal about it. Christianity and islam weren’t even “invented” when the jews first claimed the land as their own…

    “take back lands that wasnt theres to begin with,”

    Well, whose wa

  254. Adam B. says:

    SA:

    “it was not the kingdom of judea”

    Judea was the last sovereign state in the area in question. It might not have been the first, but it’s the first with a living people still walking this earth. In other words, the last official, legitimate owners if you really want to be anal about it. Christianity and islam weren’t even “invented” when the jews first claimed the land as their own…

    “take back lands that wasnt theres to begin with,”

    Well, whose was it before? Are they still here to lay claim to the land? You do realize that I’m just turning your own argument against you, right? As far as I’m concerned, the area has been the home of Christians, muslims AND jews for centuries, and all have a right to live there. Unfortunately, jews and muslims seem to be incapable of living in the same country, so two separate nations is the only answer. Only the muslims have a problem with this…

    “It was the other way around”

    Uh, no…

    It’s a historical fact Israel accepted the proposal of the League of Nations, unlike the arab countries. It’s a historical fact that a combined arab military force attacked the newly formed state of Israel days after having rejected the two-state proposal in May 48(parts of Palestine was annexed by other arab nations as a result, but do we ever hear a word of regret about this…?).

    “osama bin laden and al qaida are the natural evolution to answer Irgun, haggana, IDF. ”

    Really? Seems to me Bin Laden and Al Quaida have been busy attacking everyone BUT the israelis these last few years… I wonder when the arabs will learn that attacking people is not a good way to make friends!?!

    “Enough with foreign meddling.”
    Bin Laden is Saudi = foreign… So is Ahmajinedad . So is Nasrallah. So are you.

  255. The Banned Sand Ape says:

    Roman,

    BINGO: “As for changing your MAC address at home, that’s just how your ISP identifies your PC. Other than being a form of masquerading as vendor equipment (once upon a time, some silly people relied on vendor-owned MAC address ranges for security purposes), and thus attempting to elude ISP records for criminal purposes (doesn’t work, as you still use a username they grant you to gain access in the first place, but some people think they’re clever), you can get a different IP address from your ISP if it has a semi-static address policy – meaning binding the IP you get when you connect to your PC MAC address to give you the same address unless the timed lease they give you runs out, be it through inactivity or them just needing the address for someone else when you happened to have been offline.”

    That is exactly true and I never said anything to the contrary, so why would you act as if I did, perhaps you miss interpreted me, being too busy with that PhD thesis which I yet have to check out. You seem to be very studious and so am I, but No I am not a student, are you?

    “Amusing. What criminals do to hide their identity, you do circumvent bans and spam filters.”

    When you are on the side of the Arabs and common-sense-pragmatist-righteousness, you are automatically labelled a golden boy terrorist and you need to get incredibly creative in order to remain human and not be tricked out of your human rights, such as free speech. I learnt it from peaceful Jews actually in Israel last Fall. Trust me, even with the Bush Islamophobia era, there is still way much more anti-Jewry sentiment prevailant in the world. Why not learn from the best eh?

    I always find away to get my posts up here don’t I? If Israel was really the IT guru it claims to be, you would have found a way to do so as well. This is the only site where I find such crap, although on other sites, Zionists get minced alive. Today, Zionist hold the monopoly on censorship, which I am sure you will disagree with since you see them as the patron saints of suffering and truth, and how can a saint be evil and involved in censorship? Leave that one for your second PhD thesis, that is if you pass the first one I mean.

    Adam, don’t forget to copy paste RK’s thesis off Google documents.

    BTW, the problem is since Jews see themselves as being related to the prophet Abraham, don’t they know that Christians and Muslims claim the same thing as well? Yet neither is accepted by the Jews as being a true religion. What are the two later supposed to do, pack up and become Jewish?

    I agree 100% that no nation can honestly lay claim to that land unless all are treated equally under that said government.

    The bottom line is there is no more true Christianity in this world unless you roll with ancient monks in monasteries that have been discommunicated for not believing Jesus is the son of God.

    Also there is no more pure Judaism unless you take modern day Israel out of the equation. Israel is justified evil on steroids. The Holocaust only complicates their reasoning even further.

    The icing on the cake for you droolers is that there is no more authentic Islam either these days except rag tag bunches scattered throughout the world. The Muslim caliphate was arguably the longest reigning empire in the world. Ask any true Rabi about Andalusia and they will tell you those were the golden days of Judaism. No Arab country can claim to be Muslim, non Arab countries have a way better chance, such as Tanzania, Indonesia etc.

    Having said that, point taken, instead of the Irgun and Haggana terrorists being hailed as hero’s, they should all be put to shame. Although their intent was good, were it not for them, Arabs would have continued to accept their Jewish cousins with open arms. The friendly rivalry did get out of hand sometimes, but for the most part they were brothers for centuries under true Islam.

    Loving America so much I couldn’t fathom Native Americans trying to destroy years of my pledging the legiance to the United States of America. What America represents on paper is too worthy to just simply give up due to the sake of righteous etc. If that were to happen there would be centuries of yearning to retake “Taken America” one more time. That is the only angle in which I can honestly say I may have something in common with an Israeli. But the means still wouldn’t justify the ends.

  256. Roman Kalik says:

    That is exactly true and I never said anything to the contrary, so why would you act as if I did, perhaps you miss interpreted me, being too busy with that PhD thesis which I yet have to check out.

    I implied nothing of the sort, merely explained how changing your MAC would actually affect your IP on the one hand, and found it amusing that you’re doing so on the other.

    You seem to be very studious and so am I, but No I am not a student, are you?

    Haven’t been a student for a few years now, but my profession attracts people who always have to read articles and attend courses to keep up with the changes – I think I take that to an extra level when it comes to collection various facts and processing vast quantities of utterly useless data, as well as searching for something useful in said useless data… but at the same time, I tend to be scatter-brained and incapable of properly focusing on a single issue.

    Just a child of the Information Age, me.

    When you are on the side of the Arabs and common-sense-pragmatist-righteousness, you are automatically labelled a golden boy terrorist

    Yeah, sure. I’ll just not take your word on that one.

    and you need to get incredibly creative in order to remain human and not be tricked out of your human rights, such as free speech.

    This is where you get it wrong. Websites are not public property – they’re private property. Freedom of Speech is defined in the public sphere, not on somebody’s private lawn.

    You’re in Sandmonkey’s virtual back yard at the moment. Anything and everything that goes in said virtual back yard is up to him – if he wants it to be a place for free discussion and commentary on matters he brings up, and on anything else that enters the crowd’s mind, that his right. If he wants to ban people on sight, that’s his right as well.

    And if you don’t like it, it’s your right not to, and tells others about it – not that they’re obliged to listen, but then that’s a right *they* hold as well. The point is, nowhere do you have the right to sneak back into someone’s back-yard after being kicked out of it.

    Think about that for a moment.

    I learnt it from peaceful Jews actually in Israel last Fall. Trust me, even with the Bush Islamophobia era, there is still way much more anti-Jewry sentiment prevailant in the world. Why not learn from the best eh?

    So, you’re saying there’s more anti-Semitism than Islamophobia? Amazing! And interesting to see how you learned about identity obfuscation from peaceful Jews (let me guess – the people they tried to talk with weren’t quite interested in dialogue? Story of the Middle-East all over again), and apply it yourself in a not-too-peaceful manner at all.

    I always find away to get my posts up here don’t I? If Israel was really the IT guru it claims to be, you would have found a way to do so as well.

    Perhaps most Israelis just aren’t as obsessive, and accept that in some cases persistence for dialogue is pointless.

    And don’t worry about us not being IT gurus, Sand Ape – we are. We just apply it in other fields… like all those R&D centers various international corporations keep setting up here – IBM, Microsoft, Cisco, Juniper, Intel, and so on and so forth… the pay is good, too, or so people working there tell me.

    This is the only site where I find such crap, although on other sites, Zionists get minced alive.

    Banning on forums, livejournals, and blogs is as common as dirt. It’s been around just as long as trolling and verbal abuse has been around – every site owner or owners have rules. You cross the rules, you get kicked out. Simple and straightforward.

    You don’t get kicked out of here because of your political views, Sand Ape – you get kicked out because you have done your very best to ferment conflict and anger, verbally abused pretty much everyone you talk with who doesn’t share your world view, and have even went as far as to attempt a manual DoS attack against the blog on previous occasions by flooding it with endless repeated comments.

    Today, Zionist hold the monopoly on censorship

    Didn’t you say in the previous line that in other sites, Zionists and Jews get the banning treatment all the time, and then some? So what precisely are you opposed to – the act of banning people, or simply banning you, with anyone else (particularly people you don’t like and whose views you don’t accept) being fair game?

  257. Roman Kalik says:

    BTW, the problem is since Jews see themselves as being related to the prophet Abraham, don’t they know that Christians and Muslims claim the same thing as well?

    And, what of it?

    Yet neither is accepted by the Jews as being a true religion. What are the two later supposed to do, pack up and become Jewish?

    Traditional Islam does not recognize Christianity and Judaism as religions – it views them as perverted versions of pre-Islamic Monotheism that, while respectful, should be avoided lest their teachings contaminate Muslims.

    Neither has Christianity been very open to Islam as a real faith, and the treatment various Christian denominations accorded to Judaism amounted to a view that the very existence of Jews is anathema in a Christian world, as they are a relic of the past and have become redundant after Jesus.

    Whereas Jews just don’t give a damn. If you’re a Monotheist and observe some basic ethical laws, you’re a Noachite from Judaism’s point of view, a Righteous Gentile, a non-Jewish Good Guy. And that’s that. Jews tended to see Catholic Christianity as idolatry, other denominations of Christianity in a mixed manner (often depending on how said denomination treated Jews), and most Islamic denominations as keeping to the basic rules of all the nations – meaning the average religious Jew can enter a mosque (and pray on his own, rather than the Muslim form of prayer) but is unlikely to enter a church.

    The bottom line is there is no more true Christianity in this world unless you roll with ancient monks in monasteries that have been discommunicated for not believing Jesus is the son of God.

    You’re taking the Muslim approach to Christianity – meaning that you define it true or false in the manner that Muslims define Jesus, utterly ignoring the definitions that actual Christians hold.

    Also there is no more pure Judaism unless you take modern day Israel out of the equation. Israel is justified evil on steroids. The Holocaust only complicates their reasoning even further.

    And that is little more than taking politics and regional propaganda and applying it to a perception of a religious/national group. And why I call you a bigot so often.

    The icing on the cake for you droolers is that there is no more authentic Islam either these days except rag tag bunches scattered throughout the world.

    And who would they be? The authentic Muslims, I mean.

    The Muslim caliphate was arguably the longest reigning empire in the world.

    Only if you define the Ottoman Empire as a legitimate Islamic Caliphate, rather than ending the accepted Islamic Caliphates with the rule of Muhammad’s line.

    Ask any true Rabi about Andalusia and they will tell you those were the golden days of Judaism.

    Few Jews would argue otherwise. And then the Almohads (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almohad_dynasty) took over and the age of Andalusia was over, and the first major Jewish exile from the region of current-day Spain began.

    It wasn’t Christians who destroyed the Golden Age. It was Muslims.

    Arabs would have continued to accept their Jewish cousins with open arms. The friendly rivalry did get out of hand sometimes, but for the most part they were brothers for centuries under true Islam.

    Sure – just as long as you exclude a few massacres, expulsions, blood libels and the like, everything was great. Oh, and the Dhimmi badges:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_badge#Muslim_countries

    Peace and coexistence are relative terms to their periods – compared to what was happening in Europe during the Middle-Ages, the life of Jews in Muslim lands was much better. But *only* in relative terms.

  258. Neither has Christianity been very open to Islam as a real faith…

    Christians view Islam as a real faith in the same way Hinduism is a real faith. Christians just don’t believe that Islam is related to Christianity.

    You’re taking the Muslim approach to Christianity

    Sand Ape is an ex-Christian. He’s taking the approach that allows him to pretend that he’s Christian and Muslim both, because that’s what he find convenient. I sincerely doubt that either Muslims or Christians would accept his beliefs as valid.

  259. Christians just don’t believe that Islam is related to Christianity.

    I mis-spoke there a bit. Islam is related to Christianity in that much of Islamic teachings were borrowed from Christianity. But that borrowing was entirely one-way. There is no part of Christianity that is based on Islam.

  260. “There is no part of Christianity that is based on Islam.”

    It would be strange to have it otherwise considering that Christianity predates Islam. Reversed expression may very well be true, however.

    Guys,

    I am enjoying your conversation very much.

    Thank you.

  261. The Banned Sand Ape says:

    Roman,

    “but at the same time, I tend to be scatter-brained and incapable of properly focusing on a single issue.”

    I think its called ADD, attention deficit disorder, but check with a good Jewish physician first (some are pretty good, I give credit where credit is due), I think you maybe to old to ingest Ritalin.

    “Perhaps most Israelis just aren’t as obsessive, and accept that in some cases persistence for dialogue is pointless.”

    I think the word you were looking for is sloth or complacency.

    “Didn’t you say in the previous line that in other sites, Zionists and Jews get the banning treatment all the time, and then some?”

    No I didn’t, I said they get minced alive. In order for them to be minced, they must be there in the (virtuual) flesh. We don’t ban them, we eat them for snacks along with a bit pepto bismol.

    Any action of mine that you disapprove of I learned from you guys, such as the palestinian baby killing defense league etc. So a little blog B & E (break and enter on said sires, never hurt an innocent soul.

    “Traditional Islam does not recognize Christianity and Judaism as religions – it views them as perverted versions of pre-Islamic Monotheism that, while respectful, should be avoided lest their teachings contaminate Muslims.”

    I swear on the lives of all children in the middle east that you are dead wrong on this point. Such a studious individual with such detrimentally spoon fed blind spots, how strange. Islam accepts both as the only 2 other valid religions in the world, period!

    “If you’re a Monotheist and observe some basic ethical laws, you’re a Noachite from Judaism’s point of view, a Righteous Gentile, a non-Jewish Good Guy. And that’s that.”

    Umm, don’t forget to charge me interest on my loan, since I am a Noachite with Jalepeneo’s.

    “The bottom line is there is no more true Christianity in this world unless you roll with ancient monks in monasteries that have been discommunicated for not believing Jesus is the son of God.

    You’re taking the Muslim approach to Christianity – meaning that you define it true or false in the manner that Muslims define Jesus, utterly ignoring the definitions that actual Christians hold.”

    No, actually you are..”Jews tended to see Catholic Christianity as idolatry,” It is just a coincidence that Muslims believe that too, do you really think?

    ” “Also there is no more pure Judaism unless you take modern day Israel out of the equation. Israel is justified evil on steroids. The Holocaust only complicates their reasoning even further.” ”

    “And that is little more than taking politics and regional propaganda and applying it to a perception of a religious/national group.”

    Did you just squirm again and call the fact that 6 million Jews died at Hitlers hand, sheer propaganda? Watch out if you value your Israeli citizenship, that is considered subversion dude!

    “The Muslim caliphate was arguably the longest reigning empire in the world.

    Only if you define the Ottoman Empire as a legitimate Islamic Caliphate, rather than ending the accepted Islamic Caliphates with the rule of Muhammad’s line.”

    Shia are as Muslim as neukuri Karta are jewish in the eyes of the Irgun Hamas & Haggana bin Laden’s.

    “Ask any true Rabi about Andalusia and they will tell you those were the golden days of Judaism.

    Few Jews would argue otherwise. And then the Almohads (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almohad_dynasty) took over and the age of Andalusia was over, and the first major Jewish exile from the region of current-day Spain began.”

    Ah, again you just contradicted yourself by saying it was far worse for flourishing Jews under Muslim (Andolusia) protection, than when the Almohads exiled them after the fall of Andolusia. Why you ungrateful $#@!

    “It wasn’t Christians who destroyed the Golden Age. It was Muslims.”

    Oh, so now there was a Golden age after all, haah, seems strange you changed your mind so quick. and who might have been responsible for that golden age?

    “Arabs would have continued to accept their Jewish cousins with open arms. The friendly rivalry did get out of hand sometimes, but for the most part they were brothers for centuries under true Islam.

    Sure – just as long as you exclude a few massacres, expulsions, blood libels and the like, everything was great. Oh, and the Dhimmi badges”

    All that was before Haggana you liar. You are racist, get over it and be proud of who you are like Craig, leo tedders etc etc

    “the life of Jews in Muslim lands was much better. But *only* in relative terms.”

    Ahhhh, and finally a bowel movement, having graced us with bits of previously discarded truth!

  262. The Banned Sand Ape says:

    LMAO @ Craig swearing up and down on dear life that I am Christian, but now he obviously believes I am christian no more :) , but Muslim.

    “Sand Ape is an ex-Christian. He’s taking the approach that allows him to pretend that he’s Christian and Muslim both, because that’s what he find convenient. I sincerely doubt that either Muslims or Christians would accept his beliefs as valid.”

    They can all go fuck themselves…

    Because you forgot, I am neither, Love is my religion, but you cant hate me unless I am one or the other, so do whatever suits you…

    keep the hate strong gentiles :)

  263. The Banned Sand Ape says:

    Interesting article BTW Roman.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_badge#Muslim_countries

    Man you guys have sure suffered throughout the ages, why is that I wonder? Is all human kind evil and you guys are right? Hmm, I wonder, are you sure you guys only have a lowsy 200 Nuclear war heads. If that shit happened to me, 20, 000 wouldnt even start to be close to enough!

    But you know what I really find strange and sad, which also makes me realize that I am not dealing with the most mentally sound bunch of people in the world. Is the fact that married Jewish women were forced to wear two blue stripes on their head (hijab lol), while men were forced to wear a star of David on their sleeves on a white arm band and yet Israel chose to marry these 2 humiliating symbols & colors together, choosing them as the national Zionist symbol. Which is proof Israel has a few screws loose and its behavior today is directly influenced by Nazi Germany and centuries of international oppression, oops I mean retribution!

    Man you guys have really suffered indeed. If i were Jewish i probably would follow suit with Mosh Dayan and say fuck truth, enough already, we keep getting it in the ass. We must be like a mad dog and scare the living day lights outta everyone who is against us roaaaar! But that still wouldn’t mean i was right. But relatively, it would still make more sense then getting killed, even though I would be following the example of my oppressors.

    Wow, I won’t argue with you guys anymore coz that is just plain mean. Now lets have a moment of silence (a long one) for every Jew that was ever murdered through out history and pray for the healing to begin.

    I guess this is where somebody say’s CHECK MATE! Please be my guest…

  264. LMAO @ Craig swearing up and down on dear life that I am Christian, but now he obviously believes I am christian no more :) , but Muslim.

    No, I just think you are a very confused individual.

  265. The Banned Sand Ape says:

    Confused, is that the best you could do.

    Mohamed, check it out I proved his ass wrong yet again….where are you?

  266. Adam B. says:

    “Love is my religion”

    :D Oh deary dear, you crack me up!

    But hey, islam is “the religion of peace” too, right…?

  267. Adam B. says:

    What’s with all the historical/cultural refferences? Who cares who treated who bad 800 years ago? To christians, jews were responsible for the death of Jesus, and so were universally despised for centuries. Muslim were practically anti-christ, and were to be attacked on sight. Jews were always a numerical minority, and so could not fford the luxury of total disdain for other religions. Islam has traditionally been (slightly) more accepting of other religions than christianity, but those days are long gone. The religious center of islam, Saudi Arabia, does not allow the practice of any other religions within it’s borders, and throughout muslim countries, non-muslims are treated as second rate citizens with few or no rights.

    So what of it? We’re not living 800 years ago… We’re not even living 80 years ago! We’re living right now, and what we all do right now is what counts.

    Religion is by it’s very nature unaccepting of other religious views. Each religion is, after all, the one true path, and all others must be false, and therefore evil. The less religion impacts the everyday world, the better…

  268. The Banned Sand Ape says:

    KSA THIS, KSA THAT, BOO HOO HOO. GET OVER IT ALREADY OR ELSE THEY SUCCEEDED IN TRAUMATIZING YOU FOR LIFE AND YOU WILL ALWAYS BE AN ELF ON SUCH BLOGS.

    THATS WHY IM SURPRISED NOBODY CALLED CHECK MATE YET!

  269. Adam B. says:

    Your point being?

    You keep on ranting about the many virtues of islam and how tolerant it is of other religions, yet islam is the only religion which specifies a religious apartheid in it’s holy book.

    But of course, that small fact doesn’t suit your view of the world, so naturally it can be ignored…

  270. “But of course, that small fact doesn’t suit your view of the world, so naturally it can be ignored…”

    I disagree, I think it suits him. Critique of it can be ignored and whined about though.

  271. Roman Kalik says:

    @Craig,

    Christians view Islam as a real faith in the same way Hinduism is a real faith.

    I was of course talking about past, rather than current, views.

    Sand Ape is an ex-Christian. He’s taking the approach that allows him to pretend that he’s Christian and Muslim both, because that’s what he find convenient. I sincerely doubt that either Muslims or Christians would accept his beliefs as valid.

    Agreed. But at the same time, his views of both Christianity and Judaism as being corrupted forms of originally pure belief systems has some grounding in traditional Islamic teachings.

    @Leo,

    I am enjoying your conversation very much.

    Thank you.

    :)

    @Sand Ape,

    I think its called ADD, attention deficit disorder, but check with a good Jewish physician first (some are pretty good, I give credit where credit is due), I think you maybe to old to ingest Ritalin.

    I may have some mind form of ADHD, very likely even, but I do not find that it bothers me that much anymore. I simply live out my life by doing several things at the same time, and I think that I achieve a lot more than what I would have if I just focused on a single matter.

    Furthermore, I have an active fear of substances that affect my mind, be it short or long-term. I have no wish to lose control of my faculties or to have them altered adversely without me even noticing.

    No I didn’t, I said they get minced alive. In order for them to be minced, they must be there in the (virtuual) flesh. We don’t ban them, we eat them for snacks along with a bit pepto bismol.

    Gee. How very kind of you. You also to appear to be part of very specific communities, because I’ve seen people banned for a lot less than you did here – including on Arab-owned websites and blogs.

    Any action of mine that you disapprove of I learned from you guys, such as the palestinian baby killing defense league etc.

    You have a very twisted mind, as well as rather lame justifications for your actions.

    So a little blog B & E (break and enter on said sires, never hurt an innocent soul.

    You mean other than the fact that it disrupts the regular posting on those sites, destroys the discussions and debates that are regularly held in their comment sections, and so on?

    Your actions caused more harm to freedom of speech here than the act of banning you ever did.

    I swear on the lives of all children in the middle east that you are dead wrong on this point. Such a studious individual with such detrimentally spoon fed blind spots, how strange. Islam accepts both as the only 2 other valid religions in the world, period!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_other_religions#Non-Muslims_under_Islam

    To Quotes:

    “Abraham, Moses, Hebrew prophets, and Jesus were all prophets of Islam, but according to Muslim tradition their message and the texts of the Torah and the Gospels were corrupted by Jews and Christians. Similarly, children of non-Muslim families are born Muslims, but are converted to another faith by their parents.”

    While I realize that Wikipedia is not an accurate source by any means, I have also had numerous discussions with traditionalist Muslims on this matter – that is precisely their view as well.

    Umm, don’t forget to charge me interest on my loan, since I am a Noachite with Jalepeneo’s.

    I’ll stop charging interest on the loans I grant you just as soon as you stop charging interest on the loans you grant me. Jews have this rather basic matter in the faith called reciprocity – so just as we expect decent human treatment from others and thus require the same treatment to be granted to others, we do *not* expect the non-Jewish populace of the world to abandon interest loans, and thus never saw a problem with lending at interest to others.

    The internal limitation of lending without interest among Jews has always been just that – internal. We live by the same religious code and under the same religious authority, thus we apply to each other the same religious rules defined by that authority.

    Others do not live by that authority, so I fail to see why I should apply *my* religious rules to *them*.

    Furthermore, you bringing the matter up at all, time and time again, only illustrates your obsession with classic anti-Semitic stereotypes that themselves were borne from the limitations that Jews had in Middle-Ages Europe, in terms of what they could or couldn’t do to earn their bread. There used to be a time when Jews were *forced* into the professions of moneylender and tinker because they could not own land to become farmers, a place of business to become shopkeepers or innkeepers, or sell even sell new goods.

    No, actually you are..”Jews tended to see Catholic Christianity as idolatry,” It is just a coincidence that Muslims believe that too, do you really think?

    *shrug* We were the ones living under its rule, forcibly converted and burned on the stake at its every whim, expelled and resettled and expelled again until there was hardly anyone left to bother with…

    So yeah, I can see how Jewish theologians might have a reason to see the Catholic Church as something to avoid contact with at all costs.

    Did you just squirm again and call the fact that 6 million Jews died at Hitlers hand, sheer propaganda? Watch out if you value your Israeli citizenship, that is considered subversion dude!

    No, Sand Ape. I claimed your obsession with Israel and Jews, and how you perceive them, to be little more than politics and regional propaganda. Do note the difference.

    Shia are as Muslim as neukuri Karta are jewish in the eyes of the Irgun Hamas & Haggana bin Laden’s.

    I entirely fail to understand the relevance of your words, other than trying to subvert the debate once more with misinformation and insults. The Ottoman Caliphate is not accepted as having been a true Islamic Caliphate by many Islamic scholars and believers – right of conquest is not seen as sufficient, and a Sunni Islamic caliphate requires that the Caliph be elected by the Shura, who in turn must be supported by all Muslims in the Caliphate.

    I find it absurd that I’m more familiar with Islam than you are.

    Ah, again you just contradicted yourself by saying it was far worse for flourishing Jews under Muslim (Andolusia) protection, than when the Almohads exiled them after the fall of Andolusia. Why you ungrateful $#@!

    Read what I said again – I said that Few Jews would argue otherwise, meaning that you would be hard-pressed to find a Jew who would disagree on the existence of the Golden Age in Andalusia during the Middle-Ages, and I would not have to go around looking for those “true Jews” you keep talking about to agree on its existence. But that does not change the fact that the Golden Age was destroyed by other Muslims, who gave the Jews of Andalusia a simple choice – convert or die. There was no external stimuli that eradicated the peace, prosperity, and coexistence in that land – decades, even centuries of creativity and religious tolerance were pushed aside when a Muslim sect with slightly different beliefs came along.

    One good period, one brief moment of greatness, does not mean that we should avoid seeing the darkness that came before and after it. It was good while it lasted, though.

    All that was before Haggana you liar. You are racist, get over it and be proud of who you are like Craig, leo tedders etc etc

    You spoke of the past in rosy colors – I mention that the past’s rosy colors was sometimes the color of blood. That was indeed long before the Zionists came to Palestine, further illustrating my point about the fact that our “brotherly rivalry” got out of hand a bit more actively than you would care to admit. Furthermore, the same Zionists of which you speak with such active scorn cooperated with Arabs across the region more than once – Weizmann signed an agreemend with Faisal I, only to see it undermined by the colonial powers. Ben-Gurion and Golda Meir held meetings with Abdullah I of Jordan, who supported the partition of Palestine and the foundation of a Jewish state – but Transjordan was instead forced into the war by the other, far more militant Arab nationalist states of the Arab League.

    A few years the 1948 war was over, King Abdullah I was assassinated in 1951 for fear that he would restore his cooperation with the Jews in Israel.

    So the conclusions? There was no wholesale kindness between “the Arabs” and “the Jews”, or “the Muslims”and “the Jews”. What we had instead was kindness and good relations between *some* Muslims or Arabs and *some* Jews, and bad and violent relations between *some* Muslims or Arabs and *some* Jews. That remained unchanged across history to this day, with the exception that in years leading to Jewish independence in Palestine, the more nationalist Arabs took over the discourse and pressured those who wanted peaceful relations and no conflict into submission, and to join the great wars that we have had since.

    And with the peace agreements Israel now has with Egypt and Jordan, the wheel turned back somewhat, though it’s apparent that the old political discource of nationalism and exclusivism is still active in Arab countries.

    Ahhhh, and finally a bowel movement, having graced us with bits of previously discarded truth!

    Never discareded it, if anything you did your best to whitewash the bad bits in our mutual history.

    Man you guys have sure suffered throughout the ages, why is that I wonder? Is all human kind evil and you guys are right?

    Neither. It is simply two matters – one is that Jews are far from the only religious/ethnic minority to be treated in this matter in the past, we are simply one of the few that managed to survive. The second matter is that bigotry was the rule rather than the exception in the past 1000 years, in both Christian and Muslim nations. Times have only begun to change very recently.

    But you know what I really find strange and sad, which also makes me realize that I am not dealing with the most mentally sound bunch of people in the world. Is the fact that married Jewish women were forced to wear two blue stripes on their head (hijab lol), while men were forced to wear a star of David on their sleeves on a white arm band and yet Israel chose to marry these 2 humiliating symbols & colors together, choosing them as the national Zionist symbol.

    You apparently quite fail to realize that the symbols in question were already Jewish in the first place – the two blue stripes originate from the Tallit, the prayer shawl Jewish men wear on Shabbat and holidays, and the Star of David is one of the ancient symbols of the Judea.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Israel#Origin_of_the_flag

    When such forced symbolics were common, the rulers mostly forced a distinct and familiar Jewish symbol on Jews at all times, a familiar Christian symbol on Christians, and so on. Other degrading variations on clothing were often added, but that usually depended on just how much of a sadist the local liege lord was.

    Man you guys have really suffered indeed. If i were Jewish i probably would follow suit with Mosh Dayan and say fuck truth, enough already, we keep getting it in the ass. We must be like a mad dog and scare the living day lights outta everyone who is against us roaaaar! But that still wouldn’t mean i was right. But relatively, it would still make more sense then getting killed, even though I would be following the example of my oppressors.

    If you say so. I have long ago failed to understand your rationalizations for your perception of Jews and Israelis outside the context of the propaganda you were fed over the years and the stereotypes you were taught.

    Wow, I won’t argue with you guys anymore coz that is just plain mean. Now lets have a moment of silence (a long one) for every Jew that was ever murdered through out history and pray for the healing to begin.

    Why thank you, Sand Ape. I have never seen a patronizing bigot led to rationalizing *some* kind thoughts through it. Some psychologists out there would probably be delighted with hearing about this, and would do their very best to understand how it came to be.

    I guess this is where somebody say’s CHECK MATE! Please be my guest…

    Thanks, but no thanks.

    @Adam B,

    What’s with all the historical/cultural refferences? Who cares who treated who bad 800 years ago?

    So what of it? We’re not living 800 years ago… We’re not even living 80 years ago! We’re living right now, and what we all do right now is what counts.

    If we do not understand our history, learn it and learn *from* it, then our present is uncertain and our future non-existent.

    Religion is by it’s very nature unaccepting of other religious views. Each religion is, after all, the one true path, and all others must be false, and therefore evil. The less religion impacts the everyday world, the better…

    Couldn’t agree less. Religion is only as unnaccepting and violent as the people who steer it and make excuses for their actions in its name. The same can be said for every single ideal people believe in, and every political movement that ever sprung up.

    Take ELF and ALF, for example. The Earth Liberation Front is willing to kill people in the name of saving the planet, and the Animal Liberation Front is willing to do the same in the name of saving animal life from humanity. No religion is involved. None is needed.

    All you need is to take human beings, and stir. Religion was never the problem – the people hiding behind it were, and are, and always will be. And as we have seen in the past three centuries, you don’t need religion for wholesale murder.

  272. Adam B. says:

    RK:

    History isn’t important if what we do with it is to just keep using it as an excuse to continue the bloodshed. I agree that it’s important to know how we came to be where we are today, but using it – like people are in this thread – to justify injustice and violence today is not very productive to say the least.

    “Religion is only as unnaccepting and violent as the people who steer it and make excuses for their actions in its name.”

    Actually, religion is by it’s very nature not accepting of other “truths”. It’s the core definition of religion; the eternal truth. If someone claims to know a different truth, they’re automatically wrong, and this mindset usually leads to violence in the end. It is indeed human nature, but then again, religion is also just a figment of human imagination, so no wonder…

    Bringing up ELF and the like is pointless. Pointing out other evils does not make the evils of religion any less.

    “And as we have seen in the past three centuries, you don’t need religion for wholesale murder.”

    Religion has been at the heart of most conflicts, even up untill our time. Communism, you say? Fair enough, but for all intents and purposes a religion by any other name. They may not believe in a god, but their complete denial of other possible truths bear a striking resemblance to religious zealousness. Again, pointing out other causes of conflict does nothing to diminish the violence that has been and still is commited in the name of religion to this very day, and it’s the very nature of religion that begets this violence.

  273. Roman Kalik says:

    Actually, religion is by it’s very nature not accepting of other “truths”. It’s the core definition of religion; the eternal truth. If someone claims to know a different truth, they’re automatically wrong, and this mindset usually leads to violence in the end.

    Most religions accept that there are different paths to the same goal, or different methods within the same faith, or that, while being wrong, the religion of the other fellow isn’t so wrong as to earn him eternal damnation.

    Only the most hardline and fanatical of interpreters turn their religion into a firebrand of a One True Faith that must rule all or damn all. Sometimes such people ruled, and their views were the official creed. At the other times, they are forgotten.

    It is indeed human nature, but then again, religion is also just a figment of human imagination, so no wonder…

    You’re not very good at this whole “talking to religious people” thing, I see. One of the common errors of Atheists, when talking about religion or with religious people, is a dismissive and scornful tone.

    At which point, they sound almost exactly like the hardline and fanatical members of various religions.

    Bringing up ELF and the like is pointless. Pointing out other evils does not make the evils of religion any less.

    You ignored my argument altogether – it is not an evil of religion but rather an evil of men, because every ideal and every belief system has its fanatical members, and thus every belief and every ideal can be subverted and twisted to used as a justification for what is, in fact, directly opposed to that very ideal.

    Religion has been at the heart of most conflicts, even up untill our time.

    Couldn’t agree less. Religion has often featured in the background of large geopolitical conflicts, but it was rarely the reason – many times, it was simply one of the many excuses used by rulers who had completely different reasons to go to war.

    Most conflicts have been based on the standard repertoire of justifications – pride, greed, hatred, avoiding internal dissent by focusing on an external factor, and so on and so forth… even the Crusades were in part a matter of the Catholic Church wanting to put a stop to the endless wars and conflicts among Catholic nations, and for the lords it was a way of sending unruly peasants and bored soldiers to fight as far away as possible from home.

    Communism, you say? Fair enough, but for all intents and purposes a religion by any other name. They may not believe in a god, but their complete denial of other possible truths bear a striking resemblance to religious zealousness.

    Neither Communism, not Fascism, nor the Radicals of the French Revolution were a matter of religion. Pretending that they are not only muddles the debate about them, but avoids the fact that there might be more to the problems of the world than religious belief.

    And that, in turn, creates a reality where problems aren’t solved because their very existence is avoided by way of idealism – in this case, anti-religious idealism.

    Again, pointing out other causes of conflict does nothing to diminish the violence that has been and still is commited in the name of religion to this very day, and it’s the very nature of religion that begets this violence.

    Yes… which is why I have more and common, and feel more comfortable talking with and living side by side with other religious people (be they Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Druze, Baha’i, etc.) than I am living beside people who look at me and see a danger to society because I hold religious beliefs.

    Violence is still committed in the name of religion. And a few decades ago, wholesale murder was committed in the name of nationalism – does the existence of nations then beget violence by its very nature?

    Does the very nature of idealism of any kind beget violence?

    If anything, I am left with the following conclusion, based on this line of reasoning – the very existence of humans begets violence. As such, the best solution would be to remove the influence of human beings from the world.

    So, anyone up for mass suicide?

  274. “Actually, religion is by it’s very nature not accepting of other “truths”. It’s the core definition of religion; the eternal truth.”

    I might agree with this statement, but I would like to stress that rejection of other philosophies as faulty does not have to be disrespectful and violent.
    Basically, It is hard to be true believer with doubt. True for atheists as well.

  275. Roman Kalik says:

    rejection of other philosophies as faulty does not have to be disrespectful and violent.

    Indeed. I can be right, you can be wrong. Your continued existence while being wrong does not have to matter to me – it is not something I have to fight at all costs. It isn’t even something I have to care about.

    It can be argued that some people care a bit too much, though. Which is where, as the saying goes, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

  276. the Sand Ape says:

    Pfffft!

    “You keep on ranting about the many virtues of Islam and how tolerant it is of other religions, yet Islam is the only religion which specifies a religious apartheid in it’s holy book.”

    I never did such a thing, that would be suicide knowing how much you hate Islam with your welded predispositions and misconceptions. I mentioned that Christians and Jews were treated pretty darn good during Andalusia. While no one can recall a time when the opposite is true. How but them tidbits for a snack?

    “But of course, that small fact doesn’t suit your view of the world, so naturally it can be ignored…”

    Here is when I will call you on it, and since you can’t prove your so called fact, this is when I will call you Craig for not being able to find it in the Quran.

    Entire chapters must be read in order to understand the complete meaning. There are laws in Islam – No corruption, No sedition….something that Jews are apparently brutally reprimanded for through out history. Not all Jews, just enough to make Judaism look bad. Hence millenniums of being slaughtered.

  277. Sand Ape: you are a single matter guy. No kidding. Your single matter is hatred, rage focused mainly against israel, Zionism, Jews.
    You distort history or you are a plain ignoramus when it comes to facts.
    And don’t forget that historically Muslims have killed more Muslims than any other religion internally as well as externally………live with the facts and not with your poor intelectual interpretation of the facts.

  278. Hey, Sam.

    Time to return to your blog. I miss you.

    Tweated you with the request, too. Due to your apparent twitter addiction, which admittedly I now also suffer from.

    140 characters is insufficient for your eloquence!

  279. the Sand Ape says:

    “I’ll stop charging interest on the loans I grant you just as soon as you stop charging interest on the loans you grant me.”

    If i am Muslim, respectful of old Christian traditions like you claim, then you know darn well that your above quote is hog wash. as no Muslim has ever charges Interest, not even to George bush. In fact the KSA. has all its money in US banks and lets the US gov collect the interest. Thats how filthy rich they are. Having addressed Rockefeller & Rothschild so much, I am appalled that you defend this brutal legacy of ancient Jewry (loans & interest) so lightly.

    “Jews have this rather basic matter in the faith called reciprocity – so just as we expect decent human treatment from others and thus require the same treatment”

    Yet you continue to squirm and contradict your self by saying:

    “The internal limitation of lending without interest among Jews has always been just that – internal. ”

    An excuse to treat others differently. Your not seeing this faulty logic is what is responsible for so many Jewish deaths.

  280. Roman Kalik says:

    No corruption, No sedition….something that Jews are apparently brutally reprimanded for through out history. Not all Jews, just enough to make Judaism look bad. Hence millenniums of being slaughtered.

    You really are obsessed with the whole “Jews are Evil” thing. And you do keep on wondering why people think you’re an anti-Semite…

  281. Sand Ape:

    There’s no corruption in Islam?

    So, for example, no corruption in the Islamic Republic of Iran? No corruption emanating from the Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques? None under the Abbasid Caliphate?

    Good Lord, Sand Ape, you’re a silly man.

    I knew Sandmonkey, sir. You are no desert primate.

  282. the Sand Ape says:

    More hog wash from Roman,

    Stereo typical name calling $#@!

    “Furthermore, you bringing the matter up at all, time and time again, only illustrates your obsession with classic anti-Semitic stereotypes that themselves were borne from the limitations that Jews had in Middle-Ages Europe, in terms of what they could or couldn’t do to earn their bread.”

  283. the Sand Ape says:

    Shia are as Muslim as neukuri Karta are jewish in the eyes of the Irgun Hamas & Haggana bin Laden’s.

    Plain and simple!

  284. the Sand Ape says:

    More lies, no wonder you guys get decapitated and branded all through out history. Calling the longest lasting golden age of Jews, Muslims, Christians a like a mere

    “One good period, one brief moment of greatness, does not mean that we should avoid seeing the darkness ”

    Why you ungrateful bunch of !#$% calling the world anti semites…

  285. Adam B. says:

    “You’re not very good at this whole “talking to religious people” thing, I see. One of the common errors of Atheists, when talking about religion or with religious people, is a dismissive and scornful tone.”

    Sorry about that then, but imagine yourself talking to an adult that seriously believe in Santa Claus, the easter bunnie, and the like… That’s how I feel when discussing religion with religious people. It’s not so much a deliberate attempt at scorn as it’s a refusal to attempt a discussion at a lower level than neccesary. I feel like I’m talking to a child, and that shouldn’t be neccesary when talking to an adult.

    “You ignored my argument altogether – it is not an evil of religion but rather an evil of men,”

    Then let me correct myself – it’s not an evil of religion; it’s the nature of religion. Religion is illogical, and as such has no practical place in a logical world. When logic and fantasy collide, tension will arrise. Like I stated, religion is defined as the one and only truth – all other definitions makes religion worthless – and since several religions claim a monopoly on the truth, enmity and violence will inevitably arrise. Humans can only coexist as long as we’re willing to tlk, learn and compromise – religion allows none of these things.

    Sorry, going to a dinner-party now – will be back later to continue this interesting discussion! :)

  286. the Sand Ape says:

    “and bad and violent relations between *some* Muslims or Arabs and *some* Jews. That remained unchanged across history to this day, with the exception that in years leading to Jewish independence in Palestine.”

    Where? Did you just say Palestine?

    and you want to be taken seriously ever again?

  287. Roman Kalik says:

    Stereo typical name calling $#@!

    Your meaning? The Catholic Church didn’t like the Jews and them having any say among Christian society in Middle-Ages Europe – so it imposed limitations on them that set the allotted professions for Jews as those that were unsuitable for “pure” Christians.

    A few decades later, they say that the Jews are all filthy moneylenders and junk merchants, and should be despised.

    When these limitations are finally lifted, the Jews are *still* called filthy money-grubbers and dirty junk-merchants. That this itself is a remnant of ancient anti-Jewish legislation is now irrelevant – The Jews, after all, are not really human, thus generalizations, stereotypes, and lies rule the day.

    And then you arrive, and attempt to justify the often harsh and hate-driven treatment the Jews received under Christian and Muslim sovereigns during the Middle-Ages, and the hate propaganda and crass stereotypes that survived from that era, by a circular argument.

    First, we set laws that allow Jews to only the dirty jobs. Then we massacre them because they’re evil – the evidence? They do all the dirty jobs! Why can’t they be honest like Christians and Muslims?

    Noted the irony yet? Or the fact that you’re trying to justify the unjustifiable?

    Shia are as Muslim as neukuri Karta are jewish in the eyes of the Irgun Hamas & Haggana bin Laden’s.

    Does your new slogan have a meaning?

  288. the Sand Ape says:

    OK, here we go…anothetr bowl movement of truth. a flawless one actually. The only one I have ever heard you utter?

    “Take ELF and ALF, for example. The Earth Liberation Front is willing to kill people in the name of saving the planet, and the Animal Liberation Front is willing to do the same in the name of saving animal life from humanity. No religion is involved. None is needed.

    All you need is to take human beings, and stir. Religion was never the problem – the people hiding behind it were, and are, and always will be. And as we have seen in the past three centuries, you don’t need religion for wholesale murder.”

  289. the Sand Ape says:

    Wrong buddy:
    “Actually, religion is by it’s very nature not accepting of other “truths”. It’s the core definition of religion; the eternal truth. If someone claims to know a different truth, they’re automatically wrong, and this mindset usually leads to violence in the end. It is indeed human nature, but then again, religion is also just a figment of human imagination, so no wonder…”

    Again Roman is right. The above his due to human faults and misinterpretations of the respective religions due to human arror!

  290. Sand Ape,

    “Stereo typical name calling”

    Not that it matters, but in all fairness you should be the last person whining about name calling.

  291. “imagine yourself talking to an adult that seriously believe in Santa Claus, the easter bunnie, and the like…”

    I could be mistaking but I do not think those examples are even religious symbols. More like a tradition and mostly directed toward kids of rather young age.
    If you want to use better example try questioning Divine Presence.

    “but imagine yourself talking to an adult that seriously believes”

    … and like everything in this world each coin has two sides:

    “but imagine yourself talking to an adult that does not believe”

    Your problem is not your or somebody else’s faith. Your problem is you are trying pass judgment in matters, which are none of your concern.

    Live and let live.

  292. the Sand Ape says:

    Dianna & Dick, why don’t you both make use of your name sake instead of pointing the fingers at anyone who doesnt agree with you. If I say you passed gas, please stop, you say, ummm, everyone passes gas. Look at Darfur they pass gas over there. Just remarkably irrelevant shit to coat the fact the judea – the oppressed has become oppressor.

    Oh and BTW you say you knew Sandmonkey, what happened, did he die or did you guys have a fall out?

  293. the Sand Ape says:

    Don’t you see how you attempt to put false truths together here to justify all the killing Israel is now IN-DISCRIM-ANANTLY doing.

    “First, we set laws that allow Jews to only the dirty jobs. Then we massacre them because they’re evil – the evidence? They do all the dirty jobs! Why can’t they be honest like Christians and Muslims?”

  294. the Sand Ape says:

    Shia are as Muslim as neukuri Karta are jewish in the eyes of the Irgun Hamas & Haggana bin Laden’s.

    Does your new slogan have a meaning?

    —————————————————————

    This is a direct response to your claiming that Shia are Muslims and your irony that you think you know diddly about Islam, because they are about as Muslim as you guys consider the Neukuri karta (anti Israel Jews) of being real jews.

    ‘You’ guys being the hailers of the Irgun Hamas & Haggana bin Laden’s, the cut throat savages that founded your precious civil state which continues in their foot steps of eradicating the land from Arab vermin, going around deliberatly eviscerating pregnant women for the sake of having a homeland at any cost.

    Sounds like justified evil to me.

  295. the Sand Ape says:

    Good one leo,

    “Your problem is not your or somebody else’s faith. Your problem is you are trying pass judgment in matters, which are none of your concern.

    Live and let live.”

  296. “Shia are as Muslim as neukuri Karta are jewish in the eyes of the Irgun Hamas & Haggana bin Laden’s.

    Does your new slogan have a meaning?”

    I do not know.

    While being a Jew I have not clue who is and who is not a real Jew.

    Maybe you can see it better from aside? If so, then regale us.

  297. Here is when I will call you on it, and since you can’t prove your so called fact, this is when I will call you Craig for not being able to find it in the Quran.

    Dude, I’ve never claimed something was in the Quran, and not proved it when called upon to do so. WTF are you talking about? I absolutely LOVE to quote from the Quran, so just tell me what it is you think I claimed and couldn’t back up, and I will be happy to do so. You won’t have to ask twice. On the other hand, there’s a pretty good chance that in your muddled mind you failed to comprehend what somebody was saying and demanded they prove something that was entirely irrelevant to their statement. Shit like that happens a lot when you start typing.

    Entire chapters must be read in order to understand the complete meaning.

    Ah, see… there’s your back door, right? But you know what, Sand Ape? If you say something isn’t in the Quran and then they show you chapter and verse where it IS in the Quran, this shit doesn’t cut it. If you’re going to go that route best to keep your disagreements about interpretation to yourself rather than issuing challenges that you can only win by arguing specific theological interpretations of scripture.

  298. Sorry about that then, but imagine yourself talking to an adult that seriously believe in Santa Claus, the easter bunnie, and the like… That’s how I feel when discussing religion with religious people.

    Adam, I can’t understand how any sane human being can believe there is no higher power (God) in this universe than man. I don’t particularly care what people choose to believe, but an absolute surety in the non-existence of any supernatural forces in the universe seems to be symptom of some serious mental distress, to me. I try to be as tolerant of atheists as I am with believers (of something! anything!) and agnostics(who at least admit they don’t know) but it doesn’t get any easier with the patronizing and aggressively self-righteous attitude so many atheists seem to have.

    Live and let live is good advice. leo is a smart guy. You could learn a thing or two from him.

  299. the Sand Ape says:

    Craig, you are a liar plain and simple. I’ll prove it right now. So there!

    See my comment 54 and several prior pleads with you to point out such verses. http://www.sandmonkey.org/2009/03/30/everytime-i-think-i-am-out/#comments

    Still gonna try and deny it?

    BTW, I do agree with every poster on this thread — besides Adam — who believes there has to be a higher power. It is human arrogance that makes people digress from religion and misinterpret it as a license to kill. The Jewish religion is an awesome faith, perfect in so many senses and so was early Christianity and Islam. I openly say that I have more in common with the Jewish faith as it stands on paper than any other religion besides Islam.
    Craig if the dispute is going to be about interpretations then there is no point in debating. But feel free to give it a whirl anyways if you want! Maybe RK will join in with his quotes and interpretations as well.

    BTW “but an absolute surety in the non-existence of any supernatural forces in the universe seems to be symptom of some serious mental distress, to me.”

    Fucking Brilliant!

  300. Sandape, your comment in #54 there did not contain a demand that I prove something, it contained a bunch of babbling accusations that I had not proven something. Just like this thread does. What is it you want me to prove? Specifically? That thraed was where i was talking about where the Quran says muslims should not take Christians for friends. I already did prove the Quran does say that, in the original thread. Do you want me to prove it again, or what?

    I’m leaving out the links since Sandmonkey’s spam filter seems to be haywire, but this is direct copy paste from the well respected USC Islamic database, and you are free to verify that for yourself of course. Type in USC and Quran into google and you’ll be there.

    ————————–Quran 005.051

    YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

    PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.

    SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

    ————————Quran 005.080

    YUSUFALI: Thou seest many of them turning in friendship to the Unbelievers. Evil indeed are (the works) which their souls have sent forward before them (with the result), that Allah’s wrath is on them, and in torment will they abide.

    PICKTHAL: Thou seest many of them making friends with those who disbelieve. Surely ill for them is that which they themselves send on before them: that Allah will be wroth with them and in the doom they will abide.

    SHAKIR: You will see many of them befriending those who disbelieve; certainly evil is that which their souls have sent before for them, that Allah became displeased with them and in chastisement shall they abide.

    ————–Quran 003.028

    YUSUFALI: Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.

    PICKTHAL: Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. Whoso doeth that hath no connection with Allah unless (it be) that ye but guard yourselves against them, taking (as it were) security. Allah biddeth you beware (only) of Himself. Unto Allah is the journeying.

    SHAKIR: Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming.

    ——————-Quran 003.118

    YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Take not into your intimacy those outside your ranks: They will not fail to corrupt you. They only desire your ruin: Rank hatred has already appeared from their mouths: What their hearts conceal is far worse. We have made plain to you the Signs, if ye have wisdom.

    PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Take not for intimates others than your own folk, who would spare no pains to ruin you; they love to hamper you. Hatred is revealed by (the utterance of) their mouths, but that which their breasts hide is greater. We have made plain for you the revelations if ye will understand.

    SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take for intimate friends from among others than your own people; they do not fall short of inflicting loss upon you; they love what distresses you; vehement hatred has already appeared from out of their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater still; indeed, We have made the communications clear to you, if you will understand.

    —————-Quran 009.023

    YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not for protectors your fathers and your brothers if they love infidelity above Faith: if any of you do so, they do wrong.

    PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends if they take pleasure in disbelief rather than faith. Whoso of you taketh them for friends, such are wrong-doers.

    SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take your fathers and your brothers for guardians if they love unbelief more than belief; and whoever of you takes them for a guardian, these it is that are the unjust.

    ——————Quran 053.029

    YUSUFALI: Therefore shun those who turn away from Our Message and desire nothing but the life of this world.

    PICKTHAL: Then withdraw (O Muhammad) from him who fleeth from Our remembrance and desireth but the life of the world.

    SHAKIR: Therefore turn aside from him who turns his back upon Our reminder and does not desire anything but this world’s life.

    ——————-Quran 003.085

    YUSUFALI: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).

    PICKTHAL: And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.

    SHAKIR: And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.

    ——————— Quran 003.010

    YUSUFALI: Those who reject Faith,- neither their possessions nor their (numerous) progeny will avail them aught against Allah: They are themselves but fuel for the Fire.

    PICKTHAL: (On that Day) neither the riches nor the progeny of those who disbelieve will aught avail them with Allah. They will be fuel for Fire.

    SHAKIR: (As for) those who disbelieve, surely neither their wealth nor their children shall avail them in the least against Allah, and these it is who are the fuel of the fire.

    And so on. Should I get into the hadiths for you as well? Because, I can do that. Since you seem to be so ignorant about Islam.

    I guess that kinda shits all over your grand scheme to be both Christian and Muslim, doesn’t it?

  301. Sand Ape - says:

    Craig,

    Listen, you believe in a higher power don’t you, so just consider what I am about to say with an open mind, I mean just a little bit. After I point out your understandable misinterpretations — which I am not doing to try and humiliate you or take the cake home or anything — keep in mind that you are still more than free to go on hating Islam since there are people who claim to be Muslim, misinterpreting texts as well as trying to kill you. I wouldn’t blame you & I wouldn’t expect anything less. As old wounds die hard.

    I mean I feel that way about modern day Judaism, although actual Judaism on paper is air tight. But I see the Jews of today, who live in a world of persecution, as having unintentionally (I guess) fallen short the same way that all the other monotheistic religions have.

    Personally I am a hypocrite if I say I am a true Muslim, Jew or Christian because for example, as far as Islam is concerned, I really can’t live without alcohol and the whole no premarital sex thing is ridiculous. Yet on paper it is a good religion, although a very easy religion to be ridiculed because it applies to things of the days of old that are frowned on now a days.

    Also keep in mind what is called pedophilia now-a-days was practiced in all religions. I mean if you want, I would prefer you say all Muslims are terrorists because they don’t follow their religion. But to say they are terrorists because Islam tells them to is not fair!

    I kind of wish I was debating RK instead, because I see him as a very moderate person who just has some strong Zionistic convictions which is his right I guess. I see him as a very open minded person if you don’t mention the “I” word or the “J” or “Z” word. Therefore he is more likely to be open to a fair discussion in my opinion instead of stiff bias.

    So Roman please feel free to keep Israel out of the picture for a minute and debate the matter at hand. I mean what can you lose. I am sure the Palestine Israel conflict will still be here in a few days.

    I have a soft spot when it comes to matters relating to God so I promise to keep this debate respectful from this point on as long as EVERYONE does the same. Usually that rule is broken by a Cameron or someone claiming to be IDF and I return the insult only to find everyone jumping in…and there goes the dialogue. Let’s see who will blow it this time, shall we.

    Ok, we already know that Islam respects the two former faiths but believes both have been corrupted. I believe this to a certain degree but I also believe there are still a lot of true Jews and true Christians out there who are more deserving of heaven than 90% of those who call themselves Muslim today. Something you will not find Islamophobes admitting about a few Muslims, but rather grouping them all together as one suit case set.

    Now to address your main concern..why does Islam preach hate towards Judaism and why did the prophet Mohamed supposedly kill so many Jews in cold blood. Well as history tells it, those Jews made pacts in a time of war with the Muslims and intentionally broke these pacts, and by doing so, declared their intent of war. They thought they could defeat the Muslims but unfortunately they fought and lost. Similar to how the Arabs shamefully lost so many post 1948 wars in the region at the hands of the worlds Zionists. Keep in mind in mind I am only talking about the logic of when you engage in war and lose, that is what happens, regardless of who is wrong or right in either conflict to start off with. Fair enough?

    So anyways these Jews who lost the war were apparently captured and some freed but didn’t stop the hostilities. Keeping in mind, it was unheard of to free a captured enemy in those times. Usually they became indentured slaves, but since Islam eventually encouraged the freeing of all slaves and abolished slavery, the recaptured Jews having used up all of their strikes were all rounded up and killed in cold blood. Something that was very common back in those days. I am not saying it was right, but worse things have happened in war.

    And to answer the quote which I am sure you truly believe says:

    Muslims should not take Christians for friends. It does appear to say that, but you have to look at how that verse came about in order to fully understand what the hell is going on.

    In Quran 005. Verse 051 — Which was revealed during the time when the Jewish tribe the Beni Qarzai (I think they were called) and their Christian allies had broken their covenant with the Muslims. The verses were revealed to take caution & be very skeptical of the Jews & Christians & not to take them as friends & protectors. Expecting them to keep their word like you would expect of a friend. After all they just tried to kill the Muslims.

    Perhaps you did not realize that the A Yusuf Ali translation you supplied has the added word PROTECTORS so as to understand the meaning behind the translation a little bit better.

    I believe Christianity as well as Judaism have less blunt but similar observations that they must be self reliant and an independent self supporting unit, avoiding mixing with those who don’t believe the revelations, especially true in Christianity since Christians believe Jesus was sent to the believers (the Jew’s) at that time but was rejected etc.

    In Quran 003. Verse 028
    & Quran 003. Verse 118
    & Quran 005. Verse 080

    - It basically mentions the same thing but advises you may only do so with caution.

    - Noting not to choose Christians & Jews as friends, especially over fellow Muslims as they only wanted the destruction of the Muslims.

    - I mean isn’t that just common sense in a time of war. People will always have different allegiances with the strongest entity in order to secure their own survival & safety.

    In Quran 009. Verse 023

    It doesn’t even mention Jews or Christians but mentions turn away from those who do not believe even if they are your ken folk, brothers, fathers etc. Remember, they believed that Judaism & Christianity were corrupted & Islam was the only hope for humanity to get it right. It is the natural way to preserve their religion. What’s so wrong about that?

    Considering Islam is a cuss word in modern day English?

    Same goes for Quran 053. Verse 029:

    It says turn away from sin and those who choose worldly gain over spiritual gain. Pretty straight forward to me. It didn’t say go and kill them did it? It’s just everyone to his own kind-of-thing. Jews and Christians were pretty much sticking to themselves too at that time werent they?

    Quran 003. Verse 010 again says the same thing:

    YUSUFALI: Those who reject Faith,- neither their possessions nor their (numerous) progeny will avail them aught against Allah: They are themselves but fuel for the Fire.

    Quran 003.085

    YUSUFALI: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).

    As far as the last few verses are concerned, this is pretty basic straight forward stuff.

    Now before attacking me, for God’s sake, I am not trying to be disrespectful by expressing my opinion by stating what I wrote is what I sincerely believe. I am taking some advice & choosing the middle way & attempting to open dialogue. If anyone has anything non condescending to say to the contrary I would enjoy respectfully discussing it them.

    Peace!

  302. “Ok, we already know that Islam respects the two former faiths but believes both have been corrupted.”

    Which is basically true for each and every religion and atheism in respect to any other belief.

    “I believe this to a certain degree but I also believe there are still a lot of true Jews and true Christians”

    I personally have big problem with “true” term. Who’s to judge?

    It reminds me of expression – “An infidel can be killed for being an infidel and Muslim can be killed for being bad Muslim”.

    “Something you will not find Islamophobes admitting about a few Muslims, but rather grouping them all together as one suit case set.”

    I do not judge Muslims based on their believes.
    I do not know nor care what Islam represents.
    I judge Muslims based on their actions claimed to be in the name of their believes.

    To my opinion Islam today is suffering from affliction similar to the one suffered by Catholicism 6 centuries ago. Better times will come eventually. The rest of us have to do is to survive until then.

  303. Sand Ape, I don’t hate Muslims. I hate terrorists. And I originally brought this up after Mohamed was bragging about how all of his friends are Christians, and they were all trying to set him up with Christian women, and so on and so forth. No more and no less.

    I’ll let RK debate you on the points you made (if he chooses to) since you said you’d rather have a discussion with him.

  304. Sand Ape - says:

    Fair Enough!

  305. Cameron says:

    The priests of Al Azhar, Wisdom spouting fountains
    of divine knowledge and authority, to them submit
    every soul along the Nile, in the desert and mountains

    a nipple to suckle, so girls bring out a tit
    then we, priests declare, will family be
    the priest of Al Azhar issued a holy writ

    your flowing hair we will lawfully see
    Right so, bring them on out, quickly now
    quick lick, and we can have some tea

  306. Sand Ape - says:

    *SHRUG!*

  307. Obviously Ahmedinedschad aint the only one to set up fake demonstrations:
    http://www.lisa-heiss-entjungfert.net/?uid=736014

  308. Roman Kalik says:

    @Sand Ape

    More lies, no wonder you guys get decapitated and branded all through out history. Calling the longest lasting golden age of Jews, Muslims, Christians a like a mere

    “One good period, one brief moment of greatness, does not mean that we should avoid seeing the darkness ”

    Why you ungrateful bunch of !#$% calling the world anti semites…

    The Golden Age of Jewish-Muslim coexistence and culture in Andalusia lasted approximate a century and a half, starting with the rule of the Ummayad prince Abd-ar Rahman III, who in 912 became the Caliph of Cordoba and began an era of religious tolerance. It ended de-facto in 1066, when a Muslim mob stormed the royal palace in Granada, murdered Joseph ha-Nagid, Jewish adviser to King Badis al-Muzaffar, and went on a rampage through the entirety of the city-state that left most of the Jewish community in that city dead. It is known as the Granada Massacre.

    We had our Golden Age, Sand Ape. And before, during, and after it Jews still lived as second-rate citizens in Muslim lands, almost always kept away from any important or prosperous position in Muslim society, occasionally massacred or forcibly converted. The Ottoman Empire can be praised for the fact that it at least *tried* to maintain the rights of Jews as second-rate citizens, but that does not change the fact that it remained the most they could ever aspire to as Jews.

    Where? Did you just say Palestine?

    and you want to be taken seriously ever again?

    The region in question was known as the British Mandate of Palestine, and previously as the District of Palestine through various imperial rulers and conquerors, all the way back to the Roman Empire, when Emperor Hadrian changed the name of the province to Syria Palaestina as part of an organized process to suppress the Judean populace of the imperial province of Judea, once the free kingdom of Judea.

    You have this… knack for reading (or trying to read) more into my words than what they contain, in some attempt to validate your own notions.

    Yet you continue to squirm and contradict your self by saying:

    “The internal limitation of lending without interest among Jews has always been just that – internal. ”

    An excuse to treat others differently. Your not seeing this faulty logic is what is responsible for so many Jewish deaths.

    Jews had no problem whatsoever taking interest-based loans if the society in that country approved of it, and in the same vein had no problem with providing the exact same service in those very countries. The internal limitation on direct interest-based loans among Jews was a direct matter of encouraging charity by self-limitation – it was not something that Jews saw as all that critical that all societies across the world should avoid, nor has it been used as the single or even central-most argument that formed anti-Semitic discourse.

    This obsession with Jews and interest-based loans is from a time, during the Middle-Ages, when the Catholic Church decided to enforce a ban on usury among Christians and limit the professions Jews were permitted to have, as the Church was clever enough to realize that usury had long become a necessary aspect of the economy. So it forced the Jews to become moneylenders or become destitute, and made them them hold a profession they now claimed was hated and despicable.

    Incidentally, back to matters within the Jewish community, when it comes to interest-based lending and profit from interest, Jewish religious scholars define the modern bank as a radically different matter altogether – there is no single lender and borrower, but rather a mutually beneficial business. The customers of the bank enjoy a wide array of financial services, a safe repository for their funds, and the ability to gain access to their funds pretty much anywhere, any time. Within that business model, Judaism sees no problem for a bank to charge interest on a loan it grants when it also gives interest to the customer on deposits, and the loans themselves are for critical matters that can hardly be purchased nowadays without credit – a house, a car, and so on…

    The focus is thus on the fact that the bank owners and the customers are partners in the same mutually-beneficial business.

    And when it comes to Islamic banking, the same focus seems to exist, only with greater emphasis on the lack on *direct* profit for the bank from the loan. Thus a bank operating on Islamic principles will buy the house of someone seeking a mortgage and sell it to him at a profit, at regular installments, instead of setting an actual percentage. The same is done for loans meant for car purchases. Other forms of lending also require a mutually-beneficial agreement per loan.

    Don’t you see how you attempt to put false truths together here to justify all the killing Israel is now IN-DISCRIM-ANANTLY doing.

    For the umpteenth time, I do no such thing – no false truths, no excuses, no crimes that I supposedly justify via stating *historic facts*. You attempted to analyze Jewish history of persecution by treating the old lies, stereotypes and limitations as something that the Jews supposedly *deserved*:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Europe_%28Middle_Ages%29#Restrictions_to_marginal_occupations_.28tax_collecting.2C_moneylending.2C_etc..29
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Europe_%28Middle_Ages%29#Disabilities_and_restrictions
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cum_nimis_absurdum

    Read, it should do you good. The first two entries detail just how it became common that Jews became moneylenders, small-time peddlers, and holders of other unseemly and stereotypical professions as deemed by the ruler or lord of this or that city or kingdom. Pope Paul IV, to name but one example, decreed that Jews must be kept in Ghettos – special walled parts of each city, and that only there Jews reside. He further entrenched the money-lending trade, but made it in such a matter that a Christian cheating a Jewish moneylender would almost always come out in the right – Jews were barely allowed to keep legally-binding bookkeeping, and were otherwise limited to the rag-pickers’ trade, meaning collecting and mending goods that were thrown away. All essential and new goods were forbidden for Jewish trade.

    Thus the Jews became dirty and filthy traders and misery moneylenders, that is whenever they weren’t called Christ-killers, Host-desercaters, Baby-snatchers for Passover Ritual Cannibalism, Plague-bringers, unbelievers worthy of only being slaves…

    Pope Paul IV’s decree was spread across Italian city-states by his successor, Pope Pius IV. The next pope, Pope Pius V, expanded the decree beyond the borders of Italy and across the Catholic lands.

    This is a direct response to your claiming that Shia are Muslims

    More Sunni and Shi’a died due to your internal religious feuds than by any external conflict. And Shi’a, having ruled countries rarely, were usually on the receiving end.

    Call them whatever you wish, from your obvious Sunni, if somewhat ignorant, perspective. The internal conflicts of Islam are of no concern to me, saddening as their consequences are at times – but that does not change the fact that both Sunni and Shi’a staunchly call themselves Muslim, and claim to adhere to Islam.

    because they are about as Muslim as you guys consider the Neukuri karta (anti Israel Jews) of being real jews.

    Neturei Karta are not a large or separate religious sect within Judaism – they are a small group of fanatics who have taken their anti-secular agenda to the point where they are willing to assist in the destruction of all Jews who are not exactly like them. As far as they are concerned, they are the only “True Jews” around.

    You compare them to Shi’a. I’d compare them to Khamenei’s and Ahmadinejad’s take on Shi’a Islam, and Osama Bin Laden’s take on the Sunni Caliphate – which he and his like-minded compatriots never managed to make a reality, fortunately, regardless of how much they tried to do so in Iraq.

    ‘You’ guys being the hailers of the Irgun Hamas & Haggana bin Laden’s, the cut throat savages that founded your precious civil state which continues in their foot steps of eradicating the land from Arab vermin, going around deliberatly eviscerating pregnant women for the sake of having a homeland at any cost.

    Sounds like justified evil to me.

    Sounds like brainwashing to me. Yours, in case you were wondering.

    So Roman please feel free to keep Israel out of the picture for a minute and debate the matter at hand. I mean what can you lose. I am sure the Palestine Israel conflict will still be here in a few days.

    I am all in favor of bringing it up a lot less, as a matter of fact. I view the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as a marginal one at best within the greater context of the Middle-East, not to mention the whole world.

    Well as history tells it, those Jews made pacts in a time of war with the Muslims and intentionally broke these pacts, and by doing so, declared their intent of war. They thought they could defeat the Muslims but unfortunately they fought and lost.

    From what I have read, the Jewish clans of the Arabic Penisula did indeed make war with Muhammad, at least to some extent. The one clan which did actively participate in a premeditated armed conflict had its male populace eradicated – which, admittedly, was not uncommon at the time, and neither was taking surviving women and children as slaves.

    The fates of the first two Jewish clans was less brutal, though. Muhammad first attempted to convince the Bani Qaynuqa Jewish clan to become his adherents – they refused, which led to a battle and the Bani Qaynuqa’s exile from the Arabian Penisula. The Bani Nadir clan met a similar fate, having found their old alliances dissolving with the spread of Islam among the other clans – Muhammad’s armies laid siege on the Bani Amir after he accused them of planning his assassination, they surrendered, and were exiled.

    The last remaining Jewish clan in the region, the Bani Quraiza, were originally neutral in the conflict between Muhammad’s Medina and Abu Sufyan of Mecca, but entered into an alliance with the Meccans at behest of the exiled leader of the Bani Nadir. Having managed to dissolve the alliance through subterfuge, Muhammad marched on Quraiza and laid siege to it. The clan surrendered, having first asked that a representative of a clan that was once their close ally and friend, but now mostly in Muhammad’s Muslim alliance, for advice. This person, of the Aws tribe, advised that they should surrender to Muhammad’s judgment in order to avoid a certain bloodbath.

    Tribesmen of the Aws asked that Muhammad let the Bani Quraiza live, and he agreed to let one of their leaders decide on the Bani Quraiza’s fate. That leader, unfortunately, was a rather bloodthirsty warlord called Sa’d ibn Mu’adh, who rarely approved of Muhammad’s occasional policies of taking captives or sending enemies to exile. So he had all Bani Quraiza of fighting age massacred into mass-graves, and their women and children divided as prizes of war.

    It is likely that Muhammad chose Sa’d deliberately, knowing that it would allow him to silence the Aws tribe’s dissent and to make an example of the Bani Quraiza for others to fear. By the standards of today, it would be treated as a crime of war and genocide. By the standard of almost every war before the late 1600′s or so, though… Just practical, and incredibly brutal, but then again brutality was the rule rather than the exception for wars back then. Sa’d pretty much illustrates the mentality of the clans that Muhammad was trying to unite – everyone else dies, more glory for the winner. When your allies and subordinates, who had just recently been entirely independent, are like Sa’d… sometimes that blood-lust must be fed.

    I don’t even pretend to approve of this massacre, for that’s precisely what it was, but I do look at it within the context of historical reality. Muhammad historically cared little for Jews after he had seen that they would not convert to his path, and generally left them alone.

  309. Sand Ape - says:

    Roman,

    I said pause the Israel Palestine issue for a few days (a year or so), the conflict will still be there in a few days (a few decades). Sorry I didn’t read your rebuttal on your Google documents, I just didn’t have the time to go in circles, calling the other side my biased and hearing you say the same thing. It is futile!

    In any case I have come to the realization that this whole trying to make the other side look bad by concentrating on the negative aspects by over looking the good that each side has done or tried to do, has become completely monotonous and is the real reason behind the problem that still exists today. And there probably wont be any kind of semblance of peace until each side starts to concentrate on the good of the other, without trying to out do the one another.

    An example of this mutual ideology — giving credit where credit is due — is in your last sentence: “Muhammad historically cared little for Jews after he had seen that they would not convert to his path, and generally “”"left them alone.”"”"

    Respect for telling it like it is as far as that is concerned.

    Now please just take a breath because I know it is a reflex action to continue to try and refute what the other side might be saying, even if what is being said is totally neutral. When I said there wont be peace until each side acts a little different, automatically, someone on your side to say….”Well why don’t you tell that to yourself, we already have done a lot of good, you guys are the bad guys, bla bla bla…etc etc.” And it goes on & on & on from there, forever and ever. So i typically refuse to continue doing this.

    What is happening over there is criminal, no matter whose side you see it from. It is insane for it to boil down to how well each side can justify atrocities against the other. Suicide bombers, displacing of generations, land claims, demolishing houses etc etc etc. How in the hell can people live like that.

    I have learned a thing or two from these debates, even with all the name calling. I realize that both peoples just want to live in peace, but each side is not giving the other a chance. No matter who is wrong or right. Now the issue isnt so much as peace anymore, it is who was right to begin with which is the folly of all mankind.

    One must build a relationship with the other side first in order to engage in dialogue. Something that I am sure you agree was not done here in either our cases.

    SHALOM!

  310. Did Sandy just show a 1/2 an ounce of maturity after getting strumpted (again) by Roman?

    ’bout time!! LOL

  311. Sand Ape - says:

    Tedders welcome back,

    Frankly these are new times, but none the less, thank you for your comment… Incidentally, we are trying to build some sort of a mutual relationship as a pretext to healthy dialogue, and to dissipate some of the stereotypes and taboos that still plague great minds. Refraining from such ‘opinionated’ narratives, such as displayed in the last part of your comment.

    Let’s face it, we are on complete opposite sides of the spectrum. I take it as a great challenge to be able to get around such a fact by shortening the distance between the two opposite polarities. It will take work, but if I can do it, then I am sure that you will be able to as well. (Please feel free to read my comment #303, questioning who will be the first to digress from this path).

    It is my opinion that the alternative isn’t realistic, as it should be reserved for the playground or fantasy sports. You are most welcome to join in thinking out side of the box and contributing to making a positive impact based on these new concepts of mutual respect & understanding. Instead of being a kinetic proponent within the perpetual cycle contempt for the other side. By trying to understand why the other feels contempt for the other and be sensitive of their feelings.

    There is way too much stereotyping going on. Namely, entire religions should not be judged based on the actions of a segment of it followers no matter how large that segment may be. Why do we forget that, isn’t that called racism? Let’s take it from there shall we.

    So here’s to a better understanding and demolishing the stereotypes and resolving conflicts through the exploration of a universal platform.

    Time to clean house, let’s find that common denominator?

  312. “let’s find that common denominator?”

    Hand extended, hand accepted.

    But I have to say, there is such a dramatic shift in syntax, rhetoric, verbiage and basic thought patterns that I have a hard time believing this is Sandy’s genuine prose, at least un-aided. I welcome your conversion but suddenly your writing and oration styles have advanced light years in the span of a week or two. We’ll see where this goes but the last two years or so of your wild, immature, puerile and bombastic rantings have so debased your opines, presumptions, reputation and convictions that it will take more than a few weeks or months of rational discussion to convince me that you are suddenly a mature, lucid and impartial member of this board (wasn’t it you who said you were getting in the pant’s of all the those Israeli girls you wanted, implying? So imbecilic was your discourse my dear, do you suddenly appreciate your folly?!). If all this newly found responsibility on your part was simply masked before then you surely must have known what an embarrassment and failure your past rhetoric was to your cause. That we all had a quite a playful and entertaining time at our expense, seemingly unbeknownst to yourself. I wish you all the luck but something doesn’t seem to add up here.

    Albeit, don’t let it be said that it was I who stood in the way of polite and proper conversation and debate. I welcome your considerable transformation and hope it is as long lasting as was you complete lack of logic, manners and demeanor in the past. You have all my backing and sympathies in finding common ground in our opposing beliefs and positions. Lets consider this a new beginning for all of us here. Let’s also consider this as a sort of baptism for you in your continued growth as a passionate and spiritually more mature person. I welcome your much improved soliloquy and will address you with the same respect your future disquisition merits.

    Here’s to a new day for real commentary.

  313. meant to have said: “at your expense”

  314. Sand Ape - says:

    “But I have to say, there is such a dramatic shift in syntax, rhetoric, verbiage and basic thought patterns that I have a hard time believing this is Sandy’s genuine prose, at least un-aided.”

    Un-aided, are you suggesting I have a copy editor as an accomplice?

    But thank you for the refreshing compliment. What better way to neutralize each others defensive prejudices than to to assure the other person that there is no need to feel threatened. Call it reverse psychology, an epiphany or even the art of war.

    Initially I decided to commence in respectful dialogue to prove that it would not be me who will transgress these bounds. I realized that there is too much that we all share in common to continue with the self justified loathing. That common denominator was a belief in God. My soft spot. Such a topic requires the utmost respect, even when talking with your adversary. God says love thine enemy doesn’t he? Just because nobody does so, that doesn’t mean that God is wrong now does it? Arguing like a fool only proves there are two. And trust me tedders, you aint seen nothing yet. I have always stated that righteousness will win. So now it time to walk the walk!

    I hope that adds up for you.

  315. Roman Kalik says:

    @Sand Ape,

    I said pause the Israel Palestine issue for a few days (a year or so), the conflict will still be there in a few days (a few decades). Sorry I didn’t read your rebuttal on your Google documents, I just didn’t have the time to go in circles, calling the other side my biased and hearing you say the same thing. It is futile!

    No problem on that count – my last comment was a collection of replies to several comments, and I wrote them as I read your own. By the time I got to your suggestion to leave Palestine-Israel alone for a while, most was already written down.

    I honestly suggest that you do read the Google Doc, though, even if you don’t bother replying to it. I provide the original sources for nearly all quotes, including a direct link to an archived newspaper from German, circa 1920, and a novel written around that time – finding them on the web wasn’t that easy. Just as you brought context to the quotes from the Q’uran and to the fate of the Jewish clans of the Arab Penisula, I brought context and refutations to the quotes your brought.

    Read them, I’d hate to see the effort go to waste.

    I have learned a thing or two from these debates, even with all the name calling.

    Glad to hear that.

    I realize that both peoples just want to live in peace, but each side is not giving the other a chance.

    We don’t always have the same definitions for peace, either.

    Now the issue isnt so much as peace anymore, it is who was right to begin with which is the folly of all mankind.

    There is some truth in that.

    One must build a relationship with the other side first in order to engage in dialogue. Something that I am sure you agree was not done here in either our cases.

    I tend to agree, but until now there wasn’t much to build on. Let’s see where we can go from here.

  316. “Un-aided, are you suggesting I have a copy editor as an accomplice?”

    Yes! Maybe you mom! LOL : D

    “God says love thine enemy doesn’t he? ”

    My Christian God does, I haven’t heard that particular quote in Islam.

    The Koran teaches:

    Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship will become one of their number. Allah does not guide the wrongdoers. Sura 5:51

    Jesus Christ teaches:

    Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy…but I say love your enemies…”Matthew 5:43-44

    The Koran teaches

    Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate. Sura 9:73

    Christ through Paul teaches:

    1 Timothy 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

    1 Timothy 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

    The Koran teaches:

    You shall fight back against those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His messenger have prohibited, nor do they abide by the religion of truth – among those who received the scripture – until they pay the due tax, willingly or unwillingly. Sura 9:29

    Jesus taught His disciples:

    Matthew 20:25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.

    Matthew 20:26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;

    The Koran teaches:

    Mohammed is Allah’s apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. Sura 48:29

    The bible teaches:

    Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

    Matthew 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

    The Hadith states:

    “The Day of Resurrection will not arrive until the Muslims make war against the Jews and kill them, and until a Jew hiding behind a rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: ‘Oh Muslim, Oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!’”

  317. Sand Ape - says:

    tedders,

    I answered these questions in comment #303. I acknowledged these verses do appear to say that. Please go back and read my explanation before furthering the dialogue. Without reading it and acknowledging that going into a debate with your mind set to the fact that you are right, no If’s, And’s or But’s about it, without acknowledging that there is some truth to what the other person is saying. A precursor to building a bridge with a weak structural integrity, don’t you think?

    You can use my bridge if I can use yours. You help me build a good one that you will trust your kids to cross and i will trust you to build one that my kids can cross.

    Ever stop to ponder that maybe the reason I mentioned Matthew 5:43-44 is to point out the obvious. That these principles are not adhered to by Christians in this day & age? Especially not in a time of war.

    The verses you refer to in the Quran were revealed right smack in the middle of warfare with Jews and Christians that united against the nascent religion of Islam. Now who are the bigger hypocrites — theoretically speaking of course — Those who follow their book or those who do not!

    Keep in mind that Muslim men are allowed to marry Christian & Jew Jewish women. Come on you are an intelligent guy, you figure it out!

    BTW, there isn’t a God for Christians and a God for Muslims, as I am sure you know. There is only one almighty.

    Trust me, I had a choice in the matter which religion to follow. The principles of Christians led me to lean towards Islam more. Islam is Jesus Christ on steroids. It is a great religion, but the bad thing about it is, the only reference in it is the Bible.Even though the Bible has many facts in it to attribute to it being inspired by God in some way shape or form. I respect the church for its sense of community and what it represents. The people, the love being preached. I honesty can say I feel very inspired within a church. But as a human being I am greedy and wanted more. As some things just didn’t add up, as you put it.

    For example, if the greatest Gothic structure on earth, perhaps made by stone Masons got a wing built to it by Bengali mud brick layers, would the structure still have the same integrity (Bible). Perhaps if a new one were built and left in tact with similar themes to it, even though it might not be the same (Islam). Both are built by the same stone mason and the inhabitants of each, calls theirs home. Just because one house has less integrity then the other, that doesn’t mean that it is OK to ridicule the other. I am not ridiculing Christianity. But I believe the same is not true of your perspective of Islam.

    Here is a long lecture with verifiable proofs, as long as you do your verifying through institutions of learning. Skip the long introduction in the video and listen to what this professor of Christian studies in America’s bible belt has to say about the Bible and the state of Christianity to day. With this video, I am not trying to take the cake home or anything.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJluEnIqTVk

    In this next video, I don’t necessarily agree with this guys tone but you are smart enough to keep in mind that he is speaking as a fervent Muslim.

  318. Sand Ape - says:

    Ooops, forgot the link.

    In this next video, I don’t necessarily agree with this guys tone but you are smart enough to keep in mind that he is speaking as a fervent Muslim.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YI6gErxo44I

  319. Roman Kalik says:

    Sand Ape, a few comments regarding the second video:

    Firstly, the speaker is Sheikh Khalid Yasin. He has claimed that 9/11 was orchestrated by the US government and that Al-Quaeda is fake, that AIDS is a creation of several Western governments as part of a program to exterminate the “lesser” black populace of Africa, and his mosque in Brooklyn, New-York is Saudi-funded.

    Now, to the content of the video – don’t forget that I am not Christian, and care little, if at all, about the authenticity of Christian texts:

    * The initial reference to the lack of last names when mentioning Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John is clearly intended to imply that they are obscure personalities in terms of authenticity or their very existence – the problem with that is that last names were not yet used in Judea except by those who took up the Roman Empire’s culture entirely. The closest to last names in that era was tribal affiliation, city of origin, or the father’s name, and even those were not common.

    In this case, Sheikh Khalid Yasin chose firebrand rhetoric over historical accuracy – considering the fact that he is attacking Christian canonical texts over this very matter, that doesn’t at all help his case.

    * In claiming that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John wrote their gospels long after Jesus was dead, Sheikh Khalid Yasin is confusing (possibly deliberately) these people with the attribution of the gospels to them. In essence, where he should have been focusing on the possibilities of mis-attribution of the gospels and the inaccuracy of the content due to mistranslation, addenums, and such-like… he is instead using a simplistic form of argument that attacks the people to whom Christian canon attributes the texts. Again, rhetoric.

    * “The gospel according to” – a Gospel, in Christianity, is a manuscript describing the events from the birth of Jesus to his resurrection. It is not a letter, hence the obsession with the “according to” is pure rhetoric, and bears little to the matter – the title “The Gospel according to -” was given to each of the four canonical Christian gospels when they were published together, long after they were written, and not by their original authors.

    He then goes on to use several generalizations on matters of Christian doctrine and internal debate to try and sow doubt among the Christians in the crowd and further cement his case. It is, essentially, the starting bid of a firebrand missionary – sowing doubt via quick and simple statements, anecdotes, and a powerful personality.

    As I’m not very interested in the accuracy, or lack thereof, of Christian canonical works and texts outside of their effect on my non-Christian life and that of the Jewish community in my own historic reading, I think I won’t enter the subject further. But I would suggest that if you want to debate the authenticity of Christian religious texts and canon, Sand Ape, not to bring Muslim missionaries into the debate, particularly not firebrand ones of questionable background.

    It’s like bringing Dawkins into a Religion vs. Atheism debate – it doesn’t actually contribute anything worthwhile to the debate, and raises the average blood pressure in the religious group. The same is likely to happen among Christians when listening to Yasin. You should have probably stuck with only Professor Ehrman as a reference.

  320. Keep in mind that Muslim men are allowed to marry Christian & Jew Jewish women. Come on you are an intelligent guy, you figure it out!

    Yeah, I think any intelligent guy could figure out why Muslim MEN are allowed to marry outside the faith, but the same rules do not apply to Muslim women :)

  321. BTW, there isn’t a God for Christians and a God for Muslims, as I am sure you know. There is only one almighty.

    Somebody has a lot of ‘splaining to do about things that are condoned and even enthusiastically supported in Islam that are considered abs9olute evil in Christianity, then. Because, it’s a hard sell to claim the same deity is being worshiped when people who are being called “martyrs” in one faith are people who get an express ticket for the fiery pit in the other. I’m not trying to start trouble here, but when somebody tells me Muslims worship the same deity Christians do, I have a great deal of trouble believing it. But, it’s not really a matter I think is worth discussing. I’m not that type of Christian who thinks its necessary to try to make others “see the light”.

    Now who are the bigger hypocrites — theoretically speaking of course — Those who follow their book or those who do not!

    Christians are pretty good at following our “book” these days, Sand Ape. Not so much, a thousand years ago. I think you are mistaking what Western (secular) governments do, for what Christians believe. Our governments have been divorced from our beliefs for hundreds of years. You simply can’t make that kind of linkage, and try to make the argument that it is valid.

  322. PS-

    The verses you refer to in the Quran were revealed right smack in the middle of warfare with Jews and Christians that united against the nascent religion of Islam.

    That’s the second time you’ve said that. I don’t recall reading about Jews and Christians invading Saudi Arabia. When did that happen? If you’re going to claim that what seem to be hateful verses are justified by resentment that Christians and Jews tried to defend themselves from Muslim invasions… again, that is a hard sell.

  323. Sand Ape - says:

    Roman,

    Did I or did I not say that I don’t agree with the way the second video was delivered? Yes this man is biased & very blunt. I guess it was for Muslims as well as Christians that were considering conversion. Very effective in my opinion. Especially since Christian theologians, historians & scholars alike, agree with his points.

    Roman I know old habits die hard but you are doing it again. I hope you will forgive me if I say that you are doing exactly what this guy is doing by trying to discredit him.

    Also I must give you kudos. You are pretty darn good. Your calm & collected demeanor almost convinced me that the rest of what you were saying made sense. I know the guy in the video probably has no love lost for Jews & Christians that don’t believe in Islams authenticity. And has also probably criticised Israel for the very controversial demeanor which it came into existence. So your reaction is very normal actually & you are not to be blamed. But you are going to have to do a lot more patting on the back to convince someone with that style of argumentation. You presented a perfect ‘Ying’ to this guys ‘Yang’ whilst forgetting that universal principle behind Ying & Yang which is that one needs the other in order to exist & for there to be harmony, even though they are opposites.

    I do appreciate however your advice that I should have stuck to Dr. Ehrmans lecture, unbiased scholarly excellence, just as I told tedders that everything in his lecture is verifiable through unbiased institutions of learning. keeping in mind that Dr. Bart Ehrman taught at a very biased institution. wow, what a great lecture indeed.

  324. Sand Ape - says:

    Craig,

    I didn’t quite get your first point, on why you think it is justified for Muslim men to marry outside their faith while Muslim women aren’t? Men were initially the bosses & protectors in the 3 monotheistic faiths in olden days and even in this day and age the same is still true to a certain extent. Do to their physical attributes and not having that sissy factor going on.

    On your second comment,

    “Christians are pretty good at following our “book” these days, Sand Ape. Not so much, a thousand years ago. I think you are mistaking what Western (secular) governments do, for what Christians believe. Our governments have been divorced from our beliefs for hundreds of years. You simply can’t make that kind of linkage, and try to make the argument that it is valid.”

    Point taken, but do you mind telling me who represents the Christian faith in your mind, since the West has separated Church & State?. Secularism is the antithesis to religion. I guess that’s why the Vatican had to become a country in order to survive in today’s secular world. See my point here?

    But you are right, one doesn’t have to be either religion to go to heaven. even though hard liners, nit slackers like us, will vehemently disagree with that point. I mean come on, are we to believe that a Buddhist monk that has lived peaceful and given to charity while never harming a soul in his life, is going to burn in hell? I am laughing even as I am writing this.

    On your third point,

    “I don’t recall reading about Jews and Christians invading Saudi Arabia.”

    Please don’t be coy and try to put words in my mouth. For starters there was no Saudi Arabia back then I am sure you will agree. Plus people don’t have to be invaders in order for one clan or tribe to wage war against another.

    There was NO invasion. they were basically disagreements and blood feuds etc.

    If it is any consolation, I am amazed that we are even engaging in respectful dialogue. It is a privilege conversing with you electronically when your inhibition button is switched on. I don’t think I ever told you this, but in the few instances that you were cordial, you convinced me of some of your points. Which I in turn incorporated into my belief system as well. I am not saying that when you ‘re not cordial that means you are wrong. But in my opinion it is the bodies natural defensive mechanism not to listen. Do you get what I am saying?

  325. I didn’t quite get your first point, on why you think it is justified for Muslim men to marry outside their faith while Muslim women aren’t?

    It’s very simple, Sand Ape. By Sharia law all of a man’s children inherit his religion. Coercive marriages to women who were not Muslim was not only an efficient way for Muslim men to spread Islam in enemy territory, it was a good way to deprive the enemy of his women folk. And the prohibition against Muslim women marrying outside of Islam allowed Muslim men to have the best of both worlds. They got the enemies women and kept their own, at the same time.

    You seem to think this is an example of tolerance. I see it as an example of the exact opposite. And it’s still in effect today, even though it’s been a very long time indeed since Arabs were able to pull off any conquests.

    If it wasn’t intended for the purposes I describe, the rules wouldn’t be different for Muslim women than they are for Muslim men. Would they?

    Men were initially the bosses & protectors in the 3 monotheistic faiths in olden days and even in this day and age the same is still true to a certain extent. Do to their physical attributes and not having that sissy factor going on.

    “Bosses & Protectors” of somebody else’s women? Gimme a break. I wonder how the Persian women liked having Arab Muslims as their bosses and protectors? Not that I really blame the Arab guys, because Persian women are hot, but the way you try to make it sound altruistic and shit when it’s little more than slavery and rape is just silly.

    Point taken, but do you mind telling me who represents the Christian faith in your mind, since the West has separated Church & State?.

    If I was Catholic, I’d probably say the Pope. Since I’m protestant, I’ll say that the person who represents the christian faith to me is whoever I personally choose for spiritual guidance. There is nobody between me and God, and that’s the way Christianity was meant to be in my humble opinion. I think the Catholics are (still) doing it wrong. But since that’s the way they like it, more power to them. Long as they stay out of my business.

    Secularism is the antithesis to religion. I guess that’s why the Vatican had to become a country in order to survive in today’s secular world. See my point here?

    Not really, no. But maybe a Catholic can explain all that. I don’t really understand how Catholicism reconciles itself with the modern world. My ancestors broke from the Catholic Church over this very matter centuries ago, before the reformation.

    Are you suggesting that the Pope should still be empowered to call for a Crusade? Because, that seems like it might be kinda bad…

    But you are right, one doesn’t have to be either religion to go to heaven. even though hard liners, nit slackers like us, will vehemently disagree with that point. I mean come on, are we to believe that a Buddhist monk that has lived peaceful and given to charity while never harming a soul in his life, is going to burn in hell? I am laughing even as I am writing this.

    Well, I don’t recall saying that but I do in fact agree with you on this point. This is one of the areas where I choose to go with my own reading of scripture and not the evolved doctrine of Christianity. It doesn’t make sense to me that God could be such a petty being as to insist there is only one proper faith. And I never read anything in Bible that seemed to be stating that, myself. All the times I’ve asked my fellow Christians about that, the passages they point me to don’t say the same thing (to me) that they say to them. That’s the cool thing about Protestantism. I get to go with my own understanding of scripture, and nobody can tell me I’m wrong. Although, I still get called a heretic a lot.

    Please don’t be coy and try to put words in my mouth. For starters there was no Saudi Arabia back then I am sure you will agree.

    Now who is being coy? There was an Arabian Peninsula, pretty much where KSA is now.

    Plus people don’t have to be invaders in order for one clan or tribe to wage war against another.

    I’m not aware of any Christian tribes on the Arabian Peninsula during those times. As far as whether the Jewish tribes there were trying to hold their own or were on the offensive, I’ll let somebody who knows more about it than I do take that up.

    If it is any consolation, I am amazed that we are even engaging in respectful dialogue. It is a privilege conversing with you electronically when your inhibition button is switched on. I don’t think I ever told you this, but in the few instances that you were cordial, you convinced me of some of your points. Which I in turn incorporated into my belief system as well. I am not saying that when you ‘re not cordial that means you are wrong. But in my opinion it is the bodies natural defensive mechanism not to listen. Do you get what I am saying?

    Well, thanks. I guess. I stopped trying to reach out to people years ago. I pretty much just reflect back at people whatever it is I’m getting these days. If people are determined that I am the enemy, then let them have me as an enemy. Works for me. If people are hostile but try to be fair anyway, then I try to be fair. And if people are friendly, I try to be friendly. That seems to be about as good as it gets, on the internet.

  326. Sand Ape - says:

    “Bosses & Protectors” of somebody else’s women? Gimme a break.”
    “Coercive marriages?”

    Are you serious. Captured woman in the Jewish and Christian faiths were indentured slaves, killed or raped. Islam gave these woman a choice. Although I can’t understand the mentality back then, but sounds pretty archaic to me. But in comparison, Islam, in the case of captured women, gave them rights that an uncaptured Muslim women would have. It was a win win situation back then.

    “There is nobody between me and God, and that’s the way Christianity was meant to be in my humble opinion.”

    You are absolutely fucking right. That statement takes the cake home, being the truest adherent statement I have read from a Christian on this blog. Kudos, Kudos, kudos TO YOU!

    I am inclined to let that first comment go due to this great comment.

    BTW, are you in a Unitarian church. You share the same values they do. But I don’t think Unitarians would call you a heretic. They are too peaceful.

  327. It was a win win situation back then.

    Yeah. Right. And the whole “four wives” thing was intended to take care of widows and orphans.

    So, Achmed, tell us about your first wife, the widow? How did her husband die?

    ACHMED: I killed him.

    And your second wife, the 12 year old Orphan? How did she become an Orphan?

    ACHMED: I killed her father. And her brothers.

    Do you *seriously* think those women had a choice, Sand Ape?

    It was a brutal world back then, no doubt about it. But there’s nothing like that codified into Christianity (though it happened anyway) and claiming that there was some altruistic purpose behind it being codified into Islam seems counter-intuitive to me. The fact that these practices were made part of scripture means that it is almost impossible for Muslims to ever abandon these practices. After all, they feel they have permission from God to do these things, so why shouldn’t they?

    PS-I’m not a Unitarian :)

  328. “I didn’t quite get your first point, on why you think it is justified for Muslim men to marry outside their faith while Muslim women aren’t?”

    Even I know an answer to that one.

    It is because Muslims man would be making Muslims while Muslim woman would be making whoever she is married to.

  329. Roman Kalik says:

    @Sand Ape,

    Did I or did I not say that I don’t agree with the way the second video was delivered? Yes this man is biased & very blunt.

    It was not his tone I was talking about, nor even the method – it was the content.

    I guess it was for Muslims as well as Christians that were considering conversion. Very effective in my opinion.

    Very effective for people requiring reaffirmations in their Muslim faith, and for convincing people who grew up in Christian families and who are already doubting their current faith to the point of coming close to converting to Islam.

    My point is that it has no constructive, and only potentially destructive, contribution to this debate. Perhaps it’s merely my strong aversion to missionary attitudes, but if you truly want to debate someone’s beliefs… don’t imply that they’re rubbish and that he’s ignorant. You may have not intended it, but that’s how can be taken.

    Especially since Christian theologians, historians & scholars alike, agree with his points.

    That’s precisely the point – that’s not an accurate statement, but a generalization that is based on the considerations of a small subset of a large group of Christian theologians, scholars and suchlike.

    I hope you will forgive me if I say that you are doing exactly what this guy is doing by trying to discredit him.

    Quite the contrary – I simply find him irrelevant to the debate. And considering that this is a debate I have no actual contribution to, and no care upon its result, it starts and ends with me giving you a bit of advise. Take it or leave it – I’ve seen where debates on personal beliefs tend to get to more often than not, and just like I won’t bother debating religion with Adam because of his attitude on the matter ends any such debate before it even starts, Christians may end up feeling the same way when watching Sheikh Khalid Yasin. And that, in essence, reflects on how they will perceive you and on how likely they will be to continue any discussion with you.

    I know the guy in the video probably has no love lost for Jews & Christians that don’t believe in Islams authenticity.

    Part of the problem is that you’re thrusting this guy’s missionary sales pitch to Christians. My entire point is simply – you’re not helping yourself with using this guy as a source.

    And has also probably criticised Israel for the very controversial demeanor which it came into existence. So your reaction is very normal actually & you are not to be blamed.

    My reaction is irrelevant, and Israel is not the subject. You are attempting to dismiss my previous comment without even reading its content properly.

    What matters, just now, is how Christians with whom you’re debating their faith perceive you, and your arguments, based on the sources that you bring.

    You presented a perfect ‘Ying’ to this guys ‘Yang’ whilst forgetting that universal principle behind Ying & Yang which is that one needs the other in order to exist & for there to be harmony, even though they are opposites.

    So for every calm debater who presents his case in a clear and orderly manner, there should be a firebrand demagogue?

  330. Sand Ape - says:

    Roman & Craig,

    If you guys don’t mind, I will address you both at the same time.

    Given what Roman said:

    “My point is that it has no constructive, and only potentially destructive, contribution to this debate. Perhaps it’s merely my strong aversion to missionary attitudes, but if you truly want to debate someone’s beliefs… don’t imply that they’re rubbish and that he’s ignorant. You may have not intended it, but that’s how can be taken.”

    I fully agree, I believe it is just the basic principle of quantum physics and human psychology. That in order to mutually reverse an adverse repetitive cycle, one must first understand and acknowledge the validity of certain elements within the very constituency of the person he is debating, before respectfully attempting to address points which should be viewed as merely being different.

    After doing that, for some time, one usually realizes although we are all different, we still share so much in common as has been proven here, later realizing that addressing the later concerns isn’t of the greater importance, as our similarities have more value than or differences.

    Flexibility is strength in my opinion. I will admit that I do not know all the answers, so if anyone has a more lucid approach of doing so, please share it.

    For example: Quoting the satire of Achmed the dead terrorist really isn’t a good approach. Although I can take a joke because I think he’s pretty funny. Admittedly I also thought what shaikh Yassin said in his reference to Paul was rather funny as well.

    Although I think it is perfectly alright that Paul, the head hunter and persecutor of Christians, saw the light and within that moment of clarity found his conversion and became born again.

    Some of the Caliphs of Islam used to be pagans and did the same exact thing to the Muslims before they found the sincere will to convert to Islam. Umar ibn Khattab is one of these individuals. http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/mih/isl/umar.htm
    I make special note of point 19. In his contributions section. That he was an innovator and the first do do this in the Arabian Peninsula. I am proud of this fact.

    Also, two belief systems are one thing, the manner in which they are delivered is totally another, so No, to answer your question:

    “So for every calm debater who presents his case in a clear and orderly manner, there should be a firebrand demagogue?”

    I don’t believe this should be the case. Obviously not!

    Craig has a belief, point taken and his belief should be respected as long as he is not disrespectful about it, AGREED? Although he wasn’t doing a terribly good job at trying to find good points within Islam; which he has developed through habit. I assure you there are many.

    I realize that old habits die hard. I realize that I will not be able to convince Craig that the fanatics that are trying to kill him, who claim to be Muslim, are in fact his friends and not his enemy, LOL. The most I could hope to achieve is a common consensus that there is huge bias from one faith against the other due to years of habitual bickering & one sided argumentation.

    Having said that Roman, I do slightly consider the fact that you are against debate with even a slightly suggestive evangelistic overtone, to be a slight obstacle if you are to take it as such. Understanding that is not the case is also key, in my opinion. Any expert advice you can contribute on this issue is greatly appreciated. We already know what not to do, but haven’t heard what you think SHOULD be done!

  331. Although he wasn’t doing a terribly good job at trying to find good points within Islam; which he has developed through habit.

    I wasn’t trying to critique Islam. That’s not my job. When I provided the quotes from the Quran, that was at your request in regards to an old topic in which I was casting doubt on Mohamed’s religion. Like, a year ago. On the marriage thing, that was in direct response to you claiming this was a point in Islam’s favor. I don’t see it that way. And the one time I did try to take up the matter in what I considered a favorable way towards Islam, by pointing out that the Quran actually does specify the exact same rules for marriage for both men and women, I got beat over the head by people claiming Hadiths trumped those verses in the Quran. So, that’s a no-win situation for me. I actually think the fact that Muslims will take Hadiths over the Quran just because the Hadiths say what they want to hear is a very bad sign. I tried, man. I really did.

    The most I could hope to achieve is a common consensus that there is huge bias from one faith against the other due to years of habitual bickering & one sided argumentation.

    I think I’ve pointed out before my biggest problems with people on this blog (and on a couple others, actually… like “Will” on KABOBfest) are with Arab Christians. Not with Arab Muslims. So, I view it as more of a cultural thing than a religious one.

  332. Sand Ape - says:

    Craig fair enough, but don’t let your negative experiences with of others dictate your convictions. You have too much too lose because I see you on the right path otherwise.

    Ghandi once said:

    “Islam is a great religion and I surely would have become Muslim if it were not for the actions of the Muslims themselves.”

  333. Sand Ape - says:
  334. Roman Kalik says:

    @Sand Ape,

    Having said that Roman, I do slightly consider the fact that you are against debate with even a slightly suggestive evangelistic overtone, to be a slight obstacle if you are to take it as such.

    I think you don’t quite understand the problem with the second video – it was more than just slightly suggestive evangelistic. It was pure evangelistic, even if what you said before it wasn’t said in that tone and manner.

    We already know what not to do, but haven’t heard what you think SHOULD be done!

    Don’t insult the intelligence and personal beliefs of the person you debate with as a starting bid of debating matters that pertain to said beliefs, directly or indirectly – anger is the only likely result.
    Stick to verifiable facts whenever you can, and always pick them over opinions – no matter how many people you can bring to show that many people share this opinion.
    If you yourself believe that you are incapable of keeping calm in a debate on a matter that you take personally – don’t debate it until you can control your emotions on the matter. Emotional outburts are far more memorable than any rational or calm discourse.

    [healthy] opinions please!

    http://www.presstv.com/detail.aspx?id=88491

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,623361,00.html

    Sand Ape, I thought you said you wanted to leave Israel-Palestine alone for the moment.

    But be that it may…

    I have reason to doubt the initial article considering its origin – Press TV, the Iranian government’s official foreign mouthpiece. I have not seen this report, have no actual evidence of its existence beyond secondhand opinion, and the numbers mentioned in it only make it sound more the work of fiction, bad political analysts, or for that matter… both. The CIA hasn’t really been the most credible source for predicting the future since its inception, and a single report is just that – a single report. I’d prefer to actually see it rather than comment on a second-hand analysis of it by a very politically biased individual, who makes his lack of an impartial point of view quite clear later in the article.

    The initial quote in the article, which supposedly quotes from the report, is likely from the main human source, Franklin Lamb – professional political analysis reports don’t make use of politicized guilt-and-punishment-language, but Lamb certainly made use of it later in the same article. Where and when he actually read the report, or heard of the report, is beyond the scope of this article – and I don’t quite understand what some barely-known lawyer does with high-scope internal reports of US government agencies in the first place.

    I also don’t quite understand the obsession with the number – approximately 350,000-400,000 people of Israeli descent live in the US. That includes expatriate citizens and their children who, like Rahm Emmanuel, are considered Israeli Americans but never held an Israeli citizenship. They, along with the much smaller group in Canada, constitute over three-quarters of Israeli expat populace worldwide.

    That’s nothing remotely new. There were over 100,000 Israeli expats in the US in the 1970′s and 1980′s – it’s the prime choice for people seeking economic advancement and suchlike. All countries have emigration and not just immigration – it’s just that, in Israel, the immigrating populace already considers itself part of the national society it enters in terms of culture and shared values. If we also end up seeing the people who don’t share those values leave, and not just those seeking a better future for themselves and their families (which they did not achieve here, for whatever reason) then by all means, let them go.

    We also have over 80,000 people here who emigrated from the USA, the vast majority of whom still hold their American citizenship. Many also apply for US citizenship to gain increased economic potential and mobility – nowadays many Israelis works in the USA (sometimes illegally) to fund their post-army trips across the world, as well as to gain a firmer economic base to fund their studies or business in Israel. Thus I find the implication that Israelis are leaving Israel in droves to be quite deceiving – we have a fairly average emigration percentage among developed countries.

    The reference to the Soviet Union is quite amusing, considering the fact that the Union was an incredibly oppressive totalitarian regime that survived through decades of force, propaganda, and a make-believe economy. By the time it tried to force some economic and cosmetic societal reforms through, the old guard decided to try a military revolt as the next great answer. South Africa is also an interesting comparison, considering that it had institutionalized racial segregation down to the public toilets. Neither is a viable comparison to Israel.

    And then we have a mention of Israeli demographics… so, considering the fact that approximately 1.1 million people arrived to Israel from the Soviet Union in the past 30 years, and all the other major waves from Poland, Romania and other Eastern European countries were over 50 years ago (IE before and after WWII and the Holocaust), I don’t at all understand where the 1.5 million people returning to these countries are supposed to come from, and where the idea that one the most quickly integrated groups in Israeli society is supposed to just up and leave came from either. And who will return to Poland – 70 year-olds? And all Russian-born Israelis, including all children born here, packing their bags and heading back to that increasingly nationalist, autocratic, and collapsing society of the modern-day Russian Federation? I’m starting to think that this report, if authentic, was written by people who never met an Israeli in his life, particularly those of ex-USSR origin.

    As for birth-rates, the Total Fertility-Rate of ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel is between is higher than 10, so all the current average Jewish TFR in Israel means (2.69 and rising) is that we have a lot less children in families that consider fewer children to be good, and more children of families that are raised to see children as a boon. Israeli society is also becoming more religious as a result of this trend – in simple terms, more children are born in very observant religious families than out of them, and the growing average Jewish TFR in Israel, combined with continued immigration, don’t really mesh with the doom-and-gloom future some CIA analysts suppsedly predict for us.

    As for the article from Der Spiegel, where the author places hypothetical words into the German Foreign Minister’s mouth, the writer’s criticism and opinions on what Germany should tell Liberman (who, in my opinion, was a terrible choice for his current position, but I digress) is only partially based on fact – Liberman is on record for supporting a two-state solution and land exchange, not because he’s a kind and Palestinian Arab-loving man, but because he wants to have a defined border and build a wall over it. The supposed “Jew-only racist” is also a favorite among Israeli Druze, and one of his own party MK’s is one. Nor has he demanded any ethnic cleansing, though he’s been on edge (sometimes quite deliberately on his side) with the MK’s from Arab Nationalist parties.

    And insisting on tying to tie Iranian nuclear aspirations and the Israeli-Palestinian peace process is absurd – Iranian nuclear aspirations are an entirely separate matter, and go far beyond Israel.

    *shrug* The author doesn’t like Liberman or Netanyahu. That’s his choice.

  335. Sand Ape - says:

    That’s all I asked for, healthy opinions, thank you…I didn’t say a word, as I suggested, leaving the Israel Palestine thing out for the time being. I just wanted to know your opinions. Regarding the Russians: Whats up with, “increasingly nationalist, autocratic, and collapsing society of the modern-day Russian Federation? Did you say collapsing?? The Russians are doing better than they have since they dissolved the USSR, their growth and quality of life has been phenomenal.

  336. Roman Kalik says:

    @Sand Ape,

    Whats up with, “increasingly nationalist, autocratic, and collapsing society of the modern-day Russian Federation? Did you say collapsing?? The Russians are doing better than they have since they dissolved the USSR, their growth and quality of life has been phenomenal.

    Russia is prosperous for the rich, the criminal, and the influential. When the Soviet Union collapsed, the old national assets were basically up for grabs – and they were grabbed up for pennies, not necessarily by kind and decent entrepreneurs. This resulted in a two-fold phenomenon, the creation of the New Russians :

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Russian

    And the meteoric resurgence of the Russian Mafia, which moved from bootleg Western videotapes and con artistry on people seeking to escape the Soviet Union to, basically, ruling half of it.

    The New Russians bought the government, by and large, and the rest of the country saw complete and utter social and economic collapse that lasted for a full decade – 1990 to about 1999-2000. Alcoholism, the eternal bane of Russian society and not socially acceptable in under Soviet rule, made a huge comeback. Disease-related deaths spread rapidly as medication and even basic medical treatment became unaffordable for most people. Corruption is the norm, not the exception.

    Russia is an angry and depressed place. Male life expectancy is less than 60 years, suicide, violent crime, drugs… they’ve all become common. So have hate groups. Skinheads have become a common fixture.

    Russia enjoyed a period of relative political and media freedom after the fall of the USSR, but that’s over now. Vladimir Putin, former president and now the puppeteer-PM, is a throwback to old considerations – stability by strength. He reduced some of the economic control the oligarchs held, but considering that they were the ones who funded him from day one, I’d say that was just his way of tying off loose ends. Political criticism? Healthy debate? Not anymore. Not when prominent news reporters end up dead, crime unsolved.

    When you leave Moscow it just becomes worse. If you have money, you can buy what you need (and who you need, for that matter), but not in the countryside. Healthcare in small towns and villages has become horrible, and road gangs are widespread.

    Visit Moscow sometime, and you’ll see that almost every man in a suit has bodyguards. That’s because you need them, with the sheer volume of crime (organized and otherwise) even in Moscow’s streets. You don’t own a store without paying some protection racket, and walking around at night? Bad idea. Very, very bad idea.

    Russia is prosperous for the prosperous. It’s not the near-anarchy of post-1990, but it’s not much better – now it’s organized crime and organized government strife. Russia is a country split among robber-barons – some of them were just voted into their position, that’s all.

    Nor have cultural matters gone for the better. Under Putin, there has been a return to nationalism – history revisionism is now starting to paint figures like Stalin and even Tsar Nicholas II in a positive light, now Saint Nicholas for the Russian Orthodox Church. The violent manner in which both decimated their own populace (Tsar Nicholas focused on anti-Jewish propaganda to focus away from his own failures – violent pogroms were the norm; Stalin just killed pretty much everyone he laid eyes on – paranoia can be like that).

    Not much is better demographically, either. In terms of births, Russia is in decline – 1.4 births per woman as of 2007. For every 12 people born, 15 die. The only reason Russia doesn’t have too many old people is because they don’t last long anymore, and considering Russia’s incredibly low pensions and welfare payments for elderly, that trend isn’t changing any time soon.

    And going back to crime: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Russia

    Drugs, human trafficking, arms trafficking, homicide, corruption. 50% of the economy linked to criminal activities. Russia has become a dystopia, albeit an organized one. Some people enjoy the cream, the vast majority just die watching it being eaten by others.

  337. The Russians are doing better than they have since they dissolved the USSR, their growth and quality of life has been phenomenal.

    That’s why the Russians are best known for exporting sex workers and organized crime, right? Sorry, Sand Ape, but such things are not a sign of a healthy and prosperous society! I’m not trying to trash Russia. I honestly hope they can get their act together. But, they have a very long way to go.

  338. Russia is a paper tiger Russia’s GDP with oil and gas is equivalent to the state of New Jersey’s GDP.

    http://strangemaps.wordpress.com/2007/06/10/131-us-states-renamed-for-countries-with-similar-gdps/

    Hardly what I would call global player or emerging economy. The Russians face a declining population while producing nothing the world wants but oil. They’ve got a tough future ahead of them, especially with the current leadership.

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5599603.ece

  339. Sand Ape - says:

    tedders,

    I was hoping that we would be continuing our debate on the Quran and Islam. Not holding the entire religion accountable for the misinterpretations by a significant segment of Muslims. My defense is the Quran is in fact a very sound book. A book of peace and for all mankind, who strive to follow God’s basic criterion, which was revealed to the prophet Adam, Abraham, Noah, Aaron, Ishmael, Isaac, Moses, King Solomon, King David, Jesus & Mohamed and many more (Gods blessings upon them all).

    Keep in mind it was not revealed in a fort night but over a period of twenty three years when terrible atrocities were taking place left and right. Alcohol and premarital sex were still permitted for years during the prophet Mohamed’s life time. You can’t change Rome in a day.

    The Quran and Islam were a work in the making. I like to concentrate on the similarities and even help those of other faiths practice their religion the way they see fit.

    - Would anyone here argue that the way ancient Jewish and Christian woman dressed in ancient times is exactly the same way Muslim women dress now a days?

    - Orthodox (Sunni) Muslims believe that Jesus Christ is the savior of the world, as Gods plan can not be completed without his second coming. The main disagreement point between Muslims and Jews, although both faiths have extraordinary things in common.

    - Or the way Christians monks used to pray, by prostrating their foreheads on the ground?

    - Or that Christians are not supposed to swine, just like Jews and Muslims are not supposed to? Yet a large segment of Christians cherish swine, ironically during religious holidays.

    Am I judging them or calling them on it? Absolutely not, for lots of Muslim’s and Jews do the same exact thing, although to a lesser degree.

    I am just pointing out that a lot of religions are messed up now a days yet the original faiths have so much in common. And there is no such thing as delivering a silver bullet to the heart of the other nor anything productive in trying to discredit them.

    Even with the most solid of facts and exemplary behaviors. Without evangelical overtones (agreed), there can be many different highways leading to the same place. That does not mean that either religion is wrong or right, these are not the dark ages anymore.

    My initial intent on linking the shaikh Yassin video was to show how funny the guy was, even though his evangelical overtones were a tad overbearing and I apologize for that.

    tedders, I thought your absence was to do research, perhaps by listening to Dr. Bart Ehrmans entire lecture or anyone else’s you saw fit, in order to come up with a return knock out punch, LOL. I would have been very interested in reading it and acknowledging your facts before replying to any of them.

    But obviously you read a lot and do a lot of research, and in my humble opinion it has been proven time and time again — at least in debates — that no Christian scholar, none, can hold his own when it comes to the many versions of the Bible being superior to the Quran as far as authenticity, miracles of science, jurisprudence..add infinitum. Hence making the only possible angel of retort, to be to discredit the actions of Muslims now a days. Forgetting about all our similarities. And in the end, everyone to his own anyways.

    I know debating religion inspires profound passions and perhaps isn’t the best way to build bridges but it can be the case if done properly. If one is respectful and trusts their debater to help them understand. It would have been my intent to bridge this gap.

    The supreme Christian scholars who have debated Islam, have either ended up embracing it or making the acknowledgement that they don’t have all the answers. But since they have been raised as Christians and feel Jesus Christ in their hearts, can’t give him up. Even though Islam does not require they do that. But in any case that is their right, after all, Islam doesn’t believe he was crucified. The corner stone of Christianity. That is like saying you believe in Islam but with no Allah.

    Because away from the battle field, after Islam was completed. It sated that by no means what so ever, can there be any compulsion in matters of any religion, especially Islam. Noting that the best way to teach people about Islam, is not by scripture but by moral actions. Even towards those people whom Muslims openly call unbelievers. Kinda defeats the purpose a bit but what the heck!

    I myself in many cases I have defended Christianity against attacks from Muslims. Like the instance where shaikh Yassin said how can anyone believe what the apostle Paul had to say when he was responsible for killing so many Christians.

    I brought to the attention the case of Umar ibn Khattab, Islams second Caliph after the prophet Mohamed, who did exactly the same thing before becoming a staple in Islam.

    I challenge anybody to bring to bring anything derogatory done by the first three rightly guided Caliph’s, after the prophet Mohamed; Abou Bakr, Umar, Othaman. Ok, maybe they did a thing or two wrong, honestly, I don’t know. After all they were human and prone to make mistakes, but my point being that their era was nearly flawless & full of tolerance, and credit should be given where credit is due.

    I See only Jesus Christ & the prophet Mohamed (as they were known back then) as being anything near to perfect. Does that mean the other prophets were idiots? On the contrary. They each had their respective purposes according to God’s plans. Actually I can rtelate to the imperfect prophets better than i can to the perfect ones in my opinion, for I am full of faults myself.

    A true religion is measured by its prerequisite to tolerance of other faiths. There are numerous accounts of early Muslim rulers and common Muslims alike, risking their lives to protect Jews and Christians from rogue elements throughout the many faiths. Here is just one such instance http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diz3FqI4Tpg

    ‘leo’ said something very accurate. Islam is going through a phase of demonization just like Catholic church has and I guess Judaism as well. All one can do is try to survive through it and hope it shall pass.

    As far as Russia is concerned, no nation is without corruption, suicide, unemployment, poverty etc. Sweden has one of the worlds highest suicide rates because everything is given to them on a silver platter. It is not fair to compare Russia with New Jersey, although a very interesting article. Jersey is a cesspool of moral shame, crime, poverty etc.

    Russia with all its oil has a lot the other oil producing countries covet, for they are the worlds second or third largest supplier of arms. If there were no Russia wouldn’t be any China, or Hugo Chavez, Castro, Ahmadinejad, Sudan, North Korea etc. How can you write the Russians off so easily?

    Another thing, out of continued mutual respect to one another, lets leave Wikipedia out of any friendly debate. My younger brother goes there all the time and edits things he doesn’t like, by double affirming what is being said, then inserting a heresy sentence within the article which brings the entire argument tumbling down.

    In the Golden age — free speech aside — one wasn’t even aloud to criticize another faith openly or they would be severely punished, irrespective if that faith was open Satanic worship. Everyone at least pretended to love everybody and did get along just fine. Will those days ever return do you think?

  340. Sand Ape - says:

    Another interesting article

    http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1246443824234&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

    Iran wouldn’t hesitate to wreak havoc on its neighbors such as Egypt once the shit hits the fan, for allowing INS ships to pass through the Suez canal which just so happens to be an international water way. Time to return to West if you ask me.

  341. dude. blog update much? c’mon monkey–new posts:)

  342. . Ahmadinejad’s position is very weak, even some conservatives (Rafsanjani at.al.) are switching sides. Daily there are demonstrations in Tehran and in other large cities. In my opinion Ahmadinejad’s days are numbered.
    So for now Israel and the west should only wait.

    “Time to return to West if you ask me.”
    Nobody does.

  343. “In my opinion Ahmadinejad’s days are numbered.”

    I think the good people of Iran think that also.

  344. Ahmadinejad’s days were numbered from the very beginning. The only question is how many in number.

    But I agree, we shell wait.

  345. EgyPeter says:

    Is this blog defunct??

  346. funct!

    ; D

  347. SM is working hard at his new place of employ. Job security, you know.

    Well, either that or he finally got married and is still wondering, “how the hell did this happened to me”.

  348. the monkey is dead. :(

  349. Where’s Sand Monkey?

    (It might make a good bumper sticker, like the one they made for Jimmy Hoffa, who disappeared in the 70′s.)

    But the real question is, Where is Sand Monkey?

    Is he one of the disappeared?

  350. He’s around, he’s livin’ la vida loco like any self respecting single, snarky Sand Monkey would! Tear ‘em up and make some memories Sand Monkey!

  351. mohammed was a fraud

    that faker prophet, the old fraud moehammed
    like to take some cock up his hairy bum
    ‘pon glowing sands, or flea-ridden bed
    old moehammed, pounded like an old drum

    Cross the empty desert, you could hear
    lying moehammed’s impassioned howl
    as ibn’someone taught his asshole fear
    huge ibn’someone’s prick, foreskin a cowl

    Streched that hole to a painful degree
    and from there moehammed preached, old fraud
    truth is there for all who look to see
    ibn’someone’s jizz, moehammed’s words of god

    mohammed’s chin

    old mohammed really liked to suck hard cock
    so too bad even with his mouth so prick full
    he could still recite the koran, that shitty crock

    words of camel shit, or the shit of a spastic bull
    where all the dribbled down old mohammed’s chin
    lies and shit the koran, mohammed’s book so full

    mohammed was a liar, rapist, and thief, I grin
    you tell the truth, muslim mind like a solid rock
    the stone brained muslim will kill for a false sin

    the liar, mohammed

    Why was mohammed such an enormous ass
    Whiny little worm, in a house of desert glass
    murderous little fuck, where ever he gets the mass
    thinking of mohammed makes me pass noxious gas

    Why was moehammed such a cum swallowing prick
    when all know he liked quim, and loved little boy dick
    an insult to serious wankers to call him one totally sick
    him and his wanky crew, they can my balls give a lick

    Why was moehammed such a dumb dumbfuck
    all his countries are hell cause of… dumb luck
    hit’em with truthful words, watch’im weave and duck
    shock’im out of the lies in which they so dumb stuck

  352. Cameron,
    people like you should go to a shrink. Don’t you have anything better to do? coming to a blog belonging to a Muslim and cursing our prophet is extremely sick you know, but I’m quite sure you are so hideous that you couldn’t even stand looking at himself in the mirror. Well, I’m not going to defend my Prophet to someone like you because that would be a waste of time as i can see your ignorance and lack of respect to yourself and others, however, please make us all a favor and just go get a life, or, in other words, FUCK OFF.

    On a separate note, I wish you burn in hell (and I’m quite sure you are going to anyway)

  353. Now now, Shahira…

    “On a separate note, I wish you burn in hell (and I’m quite sure you are going to anyway)”

    That’s a bit harsh, don’t you think? We all know Cameron is a bit of a nutcase, but actually wishing him eternal pain because he has upset you a bit? No wonder muslims have a tendency to overreact when even their educated segments have these kinds of sentiment!

    It also shows something about religion in general, that it’s believers often find it suitable that one should suffer for all eternity if one dares defy or mock their belief…

  354. Oh Adam I’m touched you coming to my defense like that, tell ya what i’m sane enough to run through multiple ip’s and usie a bogus (hope, dude dosn’t mind) email, just in case some muzzie wants to cut me head off. Crazy like Dali. You really are not that bright are ya, look here what do you think this charming little muslima means by

    “(and I’m quite sure you are going to anyway)”

    She thinks all non-muslims go to hell as per muzzie belief, you moron.

    and Shahia, fuck you too, The West invented the net and web that doesn’t stop your coreligionist jihadi buddies from filling it with fucking snuff films and their genocidal bullshit ….the holy koran says… drivel. I’m not going to hell for not being a mohammedean or writing a few little poems ridiculing and insulting a false prophet because that hell doesn’t exist. I have a health amount of respect for myself and those worthy of respect. Honesty forbids that I show the slightest bit of respect for a belief system that I have zero respect for. That would be islam. An example, you wants me to suffer eternity in torment for a few little bits of verse, that took maybe ten minutes to write. What do you expect ?…your bullshit prophet had to assassinate poets cause they made fun of him. A real messanger of God wouldn’t need to do that and a fake one would. Listen little girl, I am offended that you belittle God too such a degree, like the creator of all that is could be hurt in anyway or damaged by the words of a mere human. Muzzies turn god into a cosmic asshole, vengeful and jealous, like a spoiled child.

    It’s always fun to liven things up, since Sandmonkey is awol.

  355. Sand Ape - says:

    Cameron is an anti Semite — End of Story — !

  356. Actually, he’s just an anti-muslim… Notice how he ONLY talks of religion; not skin colour or “race”?

  357. Jonathan Levy says:

    No, he’s just rude.

  358. Where are you sandmonkey?

  359. Sand Monkey is dead.

    Killed by the Egyptian police, or by some other fucked up Muslims.

  360. Killed by the Egyptian police, or by some other fucked up Muslims.

    Nah, he’s still updating his gmail status with sarcastic sandmonkeyish one liners!

  361. I think he just doesn’t like us any more. He prolly started a new blog and is busily hoping crazy people can’t find it.

  362. “started a new blog and is busily hoping crazy people can’t find it.”

    Makes sense to me!! ;-D

  363. OK. What’s up?
    It’s better to reply because when I start to get worried I can be dangerous.

  364. Nicolas Krebs says:

    “Check out the Muslim demographics:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU” (#230)

    See a debunk of this faked video (although funny, especially the 8.1 children/woman fertility rate of Muslims in France) in
    * Tiny Frog, “Muslim Demographics”, 2009-05-03, http://tinyfrog.wordpress.com/2009/05/03/muslim-demographics/
    * Duncan Macleod, “Muslim Demographics on YouTube Abuse of Statistics”, 2009-05-11, http://www.postkiwi.com/2009/muslim-demographics-on-youtube-abuse-of-statistics/
    * Steve Letendre, “Muslim Demographics Debunked”, 2009-05-26, http://rationalysis.blogspot.com/2009/05/muslim-demographics-debunked.html
    * Richard Abanes, “Muslim Demographics – A Christian Response”, 2009-06-27, http://www.crosswalk.com/blogs/abanes/11605334/print/
    * BBC Radio 4, “Muslim Demographics: The Truth”, 2009-08-07, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mINChFxRXQs
    * Oliver Hawkins, “Disproving the Muslim Demographics sums”, 2009-08-07, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/more_or_less/8189434.stm
    * Richard Knight, “Debunking a YouTube hit”, 2009-08-07, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/8189231.stm

  365. C-” I think he just doesn’t like us any more. He prolly started a new blog and is busily hoping crazy people can’t find it.”
    Well, who would read it then?

    No, I don’t think he is married..I just read this on Twitter:
    “I am sick of people blaming me for their low self-esteem. Bitch, it’s called self-esteem..as in esteem of your fuckin self.”
    If he is, it is twisted movie material..

  366. Sounds like he’s having relationship problems! I’d laugh but that might hurt his self-esteem! Hang in there, Sandmonkey! And if it don’t work out, we’ll still be here for you!

  367. This is actually fascinating..some men leave their wives after forty years of marriage. You guys are still loyal to a waxy looking, foul-mouthed monkey who is flaky with his writing!
    Anyway..til the monkey is back, enjoy this..funny:)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHzdsFiBbFc

  368. It was made by First Church of Christ?? Hmmm..that seems a little riskay for my church…funny, but not something I’d care to see made by the Church…oh well, to each his own-thanx for the laugh..

  369. Mubarak was at the White House with Obama today and still no comment by the Sandmonkey. … now I am worried. . . . .

  370. wow… thats unbelievable…. this crowd

  371. really amazing… Linktext

  372. I think they are drinking alot over there…”last weekend b4 ramadan ya woman. NO MORE ALCOPHOL!”

  373. thanks.Great post.

  374. thank you so mutch, its realy good post!