Fundamentals!

As far back as I can remember I’ve had this dream. Not much anymore, but for a while I had it all the time. There’s people on a rollercoaster and they’re having the time of their lives, and it’s loud and crashing, and there’s the booming of the ocean and the acoustics of the wind, and they’re screaming with their hands in the air, and the thing that they don’t know is that the tracks stop, somewhere at a crest, just gap into nothing, and they’re hurtling toward it. They think that they’re safe but they’re not safe.

And usually the dream gets bogged down in bureaucratic detail, trying to mobilize a team to somehow solve this problem, all the futile possible ways we could save them. Dream logic; leadership dreams. Maybe if they all raised their arms at the same counterintuitive time, at the bottom of the hill maybe, it would provide some kind of drag. Maybe if they all unlatched their harnesses at the same moment, if they somehow all knew to do it at the same time, like in a football wave, if they could do this as they were launching into space, and off the tracks altogether, they would take flight, and we could… catch them, somehow. Everyone would be safe.

Karen Armstrong wrote one of my favorite books of all time, the elegant and accessible “A History Of God”. It’s brilliant, I’ve read it lots of times. In 2000, she wrote a sort of follow-up called “The Battle For God”, about fundamentalism in the new millennium.

The idea, the rationale as such, is pretty simple. We find ourselves in a complex, degenerate post-God secular world; there are no rules, the center doesn’t hold, nobody’s watching you or judging you. Some thrive; I thrive. But it’s nervous: you’re looking into an existential abyss, or you’re standing in the middle of Sodom trying to avoid eye contact, or you’re getting turned on and about to do something really stupid. Those are the main things. Fundamentalism is sort of like all of those things at once. Let me elaborate

What’s most amazing about the millennial fundamentalists, which every single religion has, is their basic intent on going “back to basics” in some fashion, while completely ignoring the fact that there aren’t actually any “basics” to go back to. The stuff they want to accomplish, for all of us, the walls they want where a body meets a body, the rules be which we must abide, never actually existed. They’re fantasies about control, mental lockdown, revisions to decisions that no moment can erase. Every single fundamentalism is synthetic, reaching backwards for an imaginary grace.

Fundamentalism reaches past all that nonsense and chaos and into a primordial world where men were men and women weren’t, where no decisions ever had to be made, where every single option was laid out ahead of time by a firm but loving God, where families meant a certain thing and sex meant a certain thing, and everything was easy except temptation. But that’s obviously a crock. You can’t honestly tell me there was ever a time when human beings were less complex, less passionate or afraid or unpredictable, less wonderful than they are now.

For me, all this was a revelation on the level of learning, as a kid, that Allah and JHVH and the christian God were the same thing: that all Big Three monotheisms worship the God of Abraham and don’t even bother hiding that fact. The idea that “fundamentalism” was a logically tortured appeal to a beautiful pure world that never existed, and that Al Qaeda and Juniper Creek are essentially parallel movements with the same agenda and arising from the same confusion and fear… Revelatory.

Things are confusing, lots of stuff coming at your face all the time. Sex keeps getting less and less kind, and we keep blaming more and more shit on our parents and our kids, and technology is overwhelming and even the hippest among us can sometimes feel like the world is changing so fast and flying by so carelessly without giving us more than a glimpse of itself, much less a place to grab hold. I can’t say they don’t have a point. But then, terrorists usually do. If they didn’t have something to say (even if it’s usually a crock of bullshit), they wouldn’t feel silenced, and they wouldn’t pull the shit they pull. They wouldn’t feel the need to scream so loudly that the whole world must listen.

For a lot of us, it’s enough to have self-control and to make good choices, and not get out of hand, or take part in what’s going on all around you. For others, the projected disarray is way too much to handle, and you start feeling like a rat in a cage as big as the world. Everywhere around you, the world is on fire, and everyone around you goes on like the world hasn’t ended. You’re on a roller coaster with everybody alive, headed for a gap, and nobody knows it but you: we’re all heading merrily toward our destruction, and we don’t even know it. We think that we’re safe but we’re not safe.

If you have that kind of information, if you know that the tracks run out and people are going to die, it’s not only your duty to use it, but your purpose on this earth. To be in the world, but not of it. To help, and to heal, and to save the world, and in so doing, save yourself. To do what’s necessary to fulfill your destiny: to love them, and take care of them, show them the glory of peace. To see your infinite mercy matched only by your power, and complete control. Isn’t that the definition of the righteous man? The saint? The martyr? All of them…Terrorists. To give up the right to walk in this world, for a duty that must be obeyed for our souls to stay intact, unbending.

If you saw the roller coaster heading toward the gap, if you were in the middle of that nightmare, wouldn’t you do anything to stop it?

Welcome to the War!

Brazenly stolen from Jacob Clifton, who is a ridiculously awesome writer!

Comments

  1. “…a primordial world where men were men and women weren’t…”

    Lol. Perfect!

    I’m put in mind of the Nazi fondness for pre-christian myths (or their conception of them anyway) all blood and iron and Real Men.

  2. ‘What’s most amazing about the millennial fundamentalists, which every single religion has, is their basic intent on going “back to basics” in some fashion, while completely ignoring the fact that there aren’t actually any “basics” to go back to.’

    Sure, in reality the world Islamists seek to realize never truly existed. They have this idealized vision of what it must have been like during the Four Rightly Guided Caliphs (forget the constant civil war, right?), etc etc. But conceptually it did exist, scriptural it did and does exist. And most importantly, “God says so” – the argument which is the ultimate intellectual cop-out that trumps everything. Reality doesn’t figure in, does it?

    http://www.icsr.info/blog-archive.php?contributor=10

  3. Uchuck the Tuchuck says:

    No real comment on this particular post…just glad to see you back on the blog, SM. Hope Ramadan doesn’t grate too hard on you this year.

  4. Solution: Virtù.

  5. It may be that you should just keep your head down, Sand Monkey. Then again you may know that. I have no other advice for you. I think the Middle East is hopeless and will become just another massive killing field, soon enough.

    I suppose that you fancy yourself as some sort of ‘change agent’. Oh, probably not. Just get your advanced education in Canada, Do your life there or in ‘Yank land’. You cannot save the ME, nor Egypt, nor anything else, not even Canada.

    I admire your ideals but it’s all too much for you, as an individual. Sorry, G]

  6. Welcome back, Sandmonkey.

    If people like Gerry had their way, we wouldn’t have rain – because the individual drops are too small to make a difference.

    We desperately need people like Sandmonkey, people who not only see where the tracks end but are actually trying to do something about it.

    Sandmonkey, you revealed here one of the greatest problems of the western world. The massive flood of information makes it extremely difficult to find the right answers to important questions (or in your words – to put those damn tracks back). I think this is the key of the fundamentalism appeal – it provides simple, reassuring answers.

  7. nada from ny says:

    when it’s a marginalized cooky fringe marrying their cousins then so be it, but in the case of egypt and many other arab nations it is actually deadly.

    WHEN HOSNI CEDES A WHOLE CITY TO THE BEARDOS AND WRITES IT OFF. THAT IS DANGEROUS! bloomberg’s amazing piece on alexandriastan:

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=ac1_vzqOABUU

    tx a lot grand pa! go build mc’resorts in desolate places give them goofy names, and have our well to do sheep flock to to them all while forgetting about an ancient beautiful and formerly vibrant second city!

  8. Sounds like you’ve been smoking too much hash. Sleep it off.

  9. By pure chance, I was listening to La valse triste of Sibelius, when I started reading your post. Fitted perfectly!

  10. That is one of your best posts ever, and I think you make a good point.

    Many people cannot handle the complexity of the real world and yearn for somewhere simpler.

  11. I Like monkey.
    I like.

  12. Someone needs to let them know, the roller coaster is only in their head.

    This old world is 4 billion years old and nothing they do will change it. Live life the best way you can, lead by example, practice kindness, preach at the top of your lungs but the second you commit an act of violence upon weaker, innocent or people that have free will but don’t agree with you, you have doomed your cause. There’s always someone around the corner who’s bigger, badder and more willing to go postal on what they believe is a pious cause. Live and let live.

  13. There is most likely no stopping the roller coaster. You can try but I think your effort would be better spent stopping the people who put people on the next cars!

  14. anonymous says:

    Hmmm. You are definitely abstaining from alcohol and recreational drugs aren’t you. Are you fasting by chance? Wouldn’t that be something? Maybe you’ve been watching 2 many of those crappy, crazy Egyptian Ramadan soaps. Do you ever get the feeling that you overthink the world around you. Perhaps it would have been better if you had been born a simple farmer boy, tilling the Nile’s soil.

    Reading Rule By Secrecy. The world is most screwed up than even you thought. The fundies the least of our worries. Guess when the ride ends, we’ll know what was what. God Willing.

  15. This is completely unrelated to your topic, I just came upon Mona El tahawi blog lately and man is she the female copy of you. well to be honest , you’re blogs are not as full of shit as hers, yours more sensible and rational. But still, she manages to provoke me as you do, and she plays the same tunes that would please a westerner conforming with his/her stereotype of Muslim countries. and of course because you/her claim to be a muslim (hmm wait, I’ve never actually remember reading you saying that you are a muslim, are you ?) That even pleases the western reader more. If you’re not married yet I would recommend her to you (that if she’s not married too) boy you gonna be so happy together…..

  16. Marie Claude says:

    Hmmm, I am dizzy

  17. ahmed, to be honest, YOU’RE the one confirming our “stereotypical” view on arabs/muslims – SM is doing his best to pull the other way…

  18. I am reminded of this quote by John McCarthy: “An extreme optimist is a man who believes that humanity will probably survive even if it doesn’t take his advice.”

  19. ThirtyFiveUp says:

    “Elazul Says:
    August 27th, 2009 at 11:25 am
    I Like monkey.
    I like.”

    What he said.

  20. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    Remark on tedders funny statement,

    “This old world is 4 billion years old and nothing they do will change it.

    Live life the best way you can, lead by example, practice kindness, preach at the top of your lungs but the second you commit an act of violence upon weaker, innocent or people that have free will but don’t agree with you, you have doomed your cause. There’s always someone around the corner who’s bigger, badder and more willing to go postal on what they believe is a pious cause. Live and let live.”

    Sounds like you are describing Israel perfectly:

    Israel, a country the size of New Jersey can only claim to the following achievements:

    • Israel was established upon the ruins of another nation that it destroyed; Palestine
    • Israel hold the world record in the number of towns & villages it ethnically cleansed…500+
    • Israel holds the world record in the number of refugees it deported…4 million +
    • Israel holds the world record in the number of homes it demolished…60 thousand +
    • Israel is the country with the highest record of UN condemnation…500+ times
    • Israel is the country with the highest number of protective US Security council vetoes…100+ times
    • Israel has killed more innocent civilians per capita than any other country…50 thousand+
    • Israel has imprisoned more civilians per capita than any other country…250 thousand+
    • Israel has rendered more innocent civilians handicapped per capita than any other country…50 thousand+
    • Israel has injured more innocent civilians per capita than any other country…200 thousand+
    • Israel is the only country on Earth that denies the right of return of refugees
    • Israel is the only country on Earth that still occupies a whole other country & parts of two other countries
    • Israel is the only country on Earth that publicly, steals the water of its neighbours
    • Israel is the only country on Earth that has legalized home demolishing as a method of collective punishment
    • Israel is the only country on Earth that uproots trees as a method of collective punishment
    • Israel is the only country on Earth that deliberately targets civilian infrastructure and justifies it
    • Israel is the only country on Earth that legalized assassination
    • Israel stands unique in using human shields in military operations
    • Amongst all countries, Israel is the only one that has legalized torture
    • Israel is the only country on Earth that builds illegal settlements in occupied lands
    • Israel is the only country on Earth that publicly jails activists without trial
    • According to the Guinness Book of World Records, Israel has created the highest number of checkpoints
    • According to the Guinness Book of World Records, Israel holds the world record in the number of curfews its installed on the Palestinians
    • Israel is the only country on Earth whose checkpoints deny women access to hospitals, they give birth alone and babies usually die
    • Israel is exceptional in being the only country on Earth whose checkpoints denies patients access to hospitals, and they end up dying
    • Israel is the only country on Earth whose checkpoints are where wedding parades come to an end
    • Israel is the only country on Earth who checkpoints school children, denies them access to school, and puts an end to their classes
    • Israel is one of two countries that, against International Law, use cluster bombs and depleted uranium bombs. America is the other…what a surprise huh?
    • Israel holds the world record in the number of soldiers refusing to serve in the army
    • Israel despite being a rich country, receives the highest financial aid, more than the sum aid to all sub-Saharan Africa!
    • Israel claims its enemies want to wipe it off the map, but it has indeed wiped a whole country called Palestine off the map!
    • Israel is the county that has introduced nuclear weapons into the Middle East. But the only country in the Middle East that refuses to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty
    • After East Germany, Israel is the only country that is building a segregation wall
    • Second to South Africa, Israel is the only country to establish an apartheid regime
    • Israeli engineers developed the worlds’ first iron gates on roads
    • Israeli engineers developed the worlds’ first cities turned into jails with gates and opening hours
    • Israeli engineers developed the worlds’ only apartheid walls
    • Israeli engineers developed the worlds’ first electrified segregation fences
    • Israeli engineers developed the worlds’ first ‘eyes specific’ rubber bullets
    • Israeli engineers developed the worlds’ first abortion efficient, infant killing tear gas
    • Israeli engineers developed the worlds’ first humiliation guaranteed human cages
    • Israel is the only country on Earth that has a political party that publicly advocates ethnic cleansing of native citizens (Palestinians)
    • Israel is the only country on Earth that still has racist laws that discriminate against native citizens (Palestinians)
    • Israel is the only so called Western country on Earth known to have a memorial dedicated to a terrorist where his followers gather and dance.
    • Israel is the only country on Earth that imprisons kids for political reasons
    • Israel is the only country on Earth where you can get only a one month community service for intentionally, smashing the head of a child!

    How much more proof do people need to see that Israel is a terrorist nation?????!!!!!!!!!!

    • Israel is the only country on Earth that does not hold its soldiers accountable for shooting peace activists in cold blood
    • No other country on Earth has towns and cities allocated exclusively for one ethnic group (this is purer form of apartheid than south Africa’s)
    • The only country on Earth, where people live in homes stolen from living refugees is, Israel
    • The only place on Earth where people cultivate fields stolen from living refugees is, Israel
    • Israel has the highest number of towns built upon ethnically cleansed villages, whose former residents are living refugees
    • Israel ranks amongst the top countries in UN condemnations

  21. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    Indeed

    “but the second you commit an act of violence upon weaker, innocent or people that have free will but don’t agree with you, you have doomed your cause.”

    Indeed!

  22. “The only country on Earth, where people live in homes stolen from living refugees is, Israel”

    And Iraq.

    “The only place on Earth where people cultivate fields stolen from living refugees is, Israel”

    And Zimbabwe.

    “Israel is the only country on Earth that still has racist laws that discriminate against native citizens (Palestinians)”

    You must be joking. How about the discimination against Berbers in North Africa, Kurds in Turkey,
    etc etc etc.

    “Israel ranks amongst the top countries in UN condemnations”

    That is true. Anti-Semitism is popular everywhere.

    ” Israel holds the world record in the number of homes it demolished?60 thousand +”

    How about the bombing of Britain by Germany and vice versa?

    “Israel is the only country on Earth that denies the right of return of refugees”

    Are Jewish refugees welcome back in Iraq?

    “After East Germany, Israel is the only country that is building a segregation wall”

    How about the walls in Belfast and Baghdad?

    ” Israeli engineers developed the worlds’ first cities turned into jails with gates and opening hours”

    Hardly. Almost all cities had walls, gates and opening hours until quite recently.

  23. “but the second you commit an act of violence upon weaker, innocent or people that have free will but don’t agree with you, you have doomed your cause.”

    This is why I do not support the constant (since the 1920s) Arab attacks on the Israelis.

  24. DownWithDoubleStandards:

    “Israel was established upon the ruins of another nation that it destroyed; Palestine”

    Please elaborate on this – I would very much like to see evidence that a sovereign nation named Palestine existed in the area before (the modern) Israel was created. Seeing as how ALL of your other statements depend on the veracity of this claim, I’d say it’s rather important that you can actually document the existence of such a state.

    ” Israel has killed more innocent civilians per capita than any other country…50 thousand+”

    This one had me laughing – 7,4 million jews with 50.000 kills each? That would amount to, oh, 370 billion victims… Gee, those arabs must reproduce quickly!!! :D

  25. Dear “DownWithDoubleStandards”

    are you familiar with the concept of “projection” ?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

    have a nice day.

  26. Is it true the police have arrested many in Egypt for not fasting?

    Fundamentals ! right ?

  27. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    I usually don’t respond to people who use the age old washed-out antisemite argument as it is wearing very thin. Then just as ridiculous is the faulty argumentation that the UN decreed the partition of Palestine but they are antisemites.

    Then the inexplicably lame 2 wrongs makes a right excuse; Hitler did it, Stalin did it, Mao tse tung did it, Ghenkis khan did it, Satan did it, so why not Israel?

    To Adam I don’t know where you got your calculations from my friend but your DoubleStandardLogic it sounds like you are justifying genocide if it is committed against a people that don’t have some form of defined colonial sovereign borders. That’s like advocating killing the homeless because they don’t have fixed addresses. Possession is 9/10 of the law isn’t it? Would it be OK to kill you in your mothers womb before they named you Adam merely because you didn’t have a name yet and registered birth certificate?

    DoubleStandards again and again, I say DownWithDoubleStandards.

    Onetimer thanx for describing your self and the other posters here…you forgot the term reverse psychology.

    Justifying, no sorry, trying to justify a wrong with DoubleStandards requires a great deal of extremist ideology and FUNDEMENTALISM and is like trying to justify having sex with your father on a remote island for lack of sexual partners.

    I understand that sometimes people have to steal to eat, just like Israel is doing and they are victims of what they sow but that doesn’t mean they are right.

    I was just pointing out that it would be refreshing to have some semblance of objectivity and a criteria that promotes justice based on universal principles of understanding.

    Down with ALL FUNDAMENTALISTS!

  28. Growing up in the sixties in the US felt like a ride on that rollorcoaster. Anti-war riots, civil war riots, college campuses in riots, womens rights demos, enviromental demos, civl dissobedience, “drop and cover” drills, anti nuke demos, Kennedy assassinated, MLK assassintaed, Malcom X assassinated, another Kennedy assassinated, the drug culture, hippies in communes, . . . .seemd like the US would never survive. i was always waiting for the end of the tracks.

    I’m sure that people felt the same during WWII. .. or the Great Depression. . .or WWI. . . or the Civil War . . . . or the Huindred Years Wars. . .. or the Great Plaque. Yet the world not only survives but even excedes previous standards.

    But as for the great attraction of the Fundamentalists. It is true that many are trying to reach back to the past and re-establish it. But rather than an attempt to restore a happier time, I feel that fundamentalism is more about trying to re-establish power. These are people that had great power that is slipping away. As the world becomes more westernized, the old power brokers lose their grip on power. They use religion as a tool to regain power over the people.

    Many people blame our current problems with radical Islam as a result of years of “imperilaist’ actions by the US and by abuses by multi-national corperations. But I think that much more of the problem is cultural. As western ideals and culture spread throughout the world, the fundamendalists have a natural aversion to westernism. They see western ideals as corrupting and corrosive.

    Imagine what its like for a fundamentalist to see videos of Madonna or Britney cavorting about. To see openly gay people on parade. To see Hollywood sex scenes and porn spread throughout their society. To see their own young people begin to emulate these western icons in dress and behavior. Everywhere they go they see Mikey D’s and Pizza Hut, Coke and Pepsi.

    Everything they have been tauoght and put their faith in is being challenged. They entire social structure is being re-drawn. And they are losing their power and sense of control. It is no wonder they react violently. There will be tough times ahead for decades to come.

    But there is no end to the tracks. There will be sudden dropoffs and sharp turns. Dips and hills to climb. There always has been and always will. And that is the real joy in the ride.

    My local park had a miniture train ride. Rode it twice and quickly became bored, even as a little kid. It was the roller coaster, the tumble bug, and the bumper cars that we rode time and time again.

  29. DownWithDoubleStandards, were there any items on your list that were actually true? I gave up on reading it after about the 5th consecutive falsehood. What do you hope to accomplish by pimping such low quality propaganda? At least you should come up with a list that’s at least slightly credible, no?

  30. I usually don’t respond…

    I’m not surprised! If I wandered the internet making comments that were full of obvious untruths, I wouldn’t be real big on responding either!

  31. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    hmm sounds like somebody has slept with their mom lately after all or has at least contemplated it…the audacity of a liar calling UN facts a lie. What planet do you say you lived on again? Oh ya right, “Thine enemies enemy is my friend” planet.

    Cooperating with the zionists because they hate Muslims just as much as you.

    The jews of Europe cooperated with Hitler at one point and look where that got them.

    Hating Muslims is the same as hating Jews. I think its called antisemitism

    This blog is for severe losers…

  32. DownWithDoubleStandards – 27:

    I pointed out a basic problem in your entire argument as well as an obvious flaw (one in many most likely) in your “statistics”. You put words in my mouth that I have not uttered, and at the same time fail to address the issues I have brought up… Classic evasive maneuver.

    Is it “right” that palestinians are dying? Nope. Neither is it “right” that Israel has been under constant attack by the palestinians and it’s neighbours since the state was formed…

    “the audacity of a liar calling UN facts a lie.”

    370 billion dead palestinians are, hopefully, not UN facts…!

    “This blog is for severe losers…”

    Welcome, then… :)

  33. Just to keep things level here, I’d like to take the opportunity to ask the israelis on the blog what the hell their country is up to…?!?

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8241247.stm

    You guys make it awful hard for the rest of us to keep up sympathy with your situation… :-/

  34. Why does every post have to turn into a never ending israel v/s arabs argument?! doesn’t it get old?!!

  35. “Why does every post have to turn into a never ending israel v/s arabs argument?! ”

    Sand ape is back.

  36. Jennifer; good question.

    It always comes down to Israel. And that is purposefully done.

    The entire ME and the entire Arab world is ruled by thugs and dictators. These clowns stay in power by oppressing their people, putting cronies in power, and by paying huge amounts of bribes to corrupt officials. This leads to disfunctional societies with bankrupt economies in which the people suffer greatly.

    If Israel did not exist, then these people would look at their own situation and revolt against these tyrants. Thus, the thug rulers use Israel as a lighnting rod to draw away the anger of the people. Israel, along with the US, becomes the big bad boogie man that is the cause of all ills in the ME. The religious leaders play along with this scenario as it allows them to capitalize on the same sentiment. It is this unholy alliance between the tyrants and the theologians of the ME that perpetuate this bankrupt system.

    That is also why peace between the Israelis and the Palis was dissallowed over a decade ago when Yasser Arafat turned down the deal of the century. He had no choice for peace is not the objective. Perpetual war with Israel is a necessary tool for survival for the tyrrants in the ME. Look how Egypt was hated after Saddat signed the Camp David Accords.

    Sand Ape may be a professional agitator to keep thse flames of hatred alive. He/she may be a mislead individual that actually believes what he/she writes. In either case, any discussion must be brought around to the “evil Jews” so as to deflect discussions on issues that may threaten the thugocracies that rule the ME.

  37. Thewiz, my question was actually a rhetorical one. But I quite like the way you put it.
    Tedders, I don’t really know who “Sand Ape” may be but I’m sure I’ll figure it out soon enough; I’m kind of new to this blog.

  38. Welcome Jennifer, very glad to have you with us!! Sand Ape is one of his many monikers, he changes them at will but he seldom changes his rhetoric.

    Regardless, happy to have you here

  39. Well said and thought out, thewiz!

  40. Tedders and Jennifer; thanks, I would like to see the Sandmonkey comment on my thesis. . . .

  41. He knows you’re right the wiz.

    In addition the key is not the “Palestinian” problem. This problem could have been solved back in 1947 if the Arab states had accepted the United Nations partition plan. They didn´t, they went to war – and they lost (as they have lost every war after that). What happens when you lose a war you started? You lose the right to territory and possibly you and your peoples lives.

    The real problem is that Islam cannot accept a non-Islamic country in their midst, and that Islam wants the world to be Islamic, or to submit to its rule. Iraq was the start of something that needs to be finished, true enlightenment for the peoples of the middle east.

  42. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    tedders it is very naive of you to think I am Sand ape. I don’t know who he/she is nor do I care. The subtle fact that you stated whom ever does wrong first is exactly why I pointed out that justice must be carried out in the Middle East and mentioned Israel.

    Yet again you claim truths based on falsehoods. Let me give you an example of your latest faux-pas.

    You say “What happens when you lose a war you started?”

    This is nonsense, everyone knows that before the partition, right wing Zionists; Jews as well as Christians attacked British military targets as well as civilian Palestinian targets (because they were aiding the British). So the British as well as the Palestinians were the original victims before any controversy over any he partition arouse from the Arab side. The Zionists even had an informal deal with Hitler at one time to be allowed to have safe passage to Palestine in return for helping fight the British.

    Therefore the Zionists are the ones who technically started the war. Although both peoples have title to the land in question. But one side starting the war and trying to usurp it all is not the same as one side not agreeing to a partition. Unless you want to use God as an excuse for tyranny and are fooled by religion, as both sides are.

    Eventually the partition mandate was implemented and yes the Arabs didn’t agree, But now a days it is the Zionists who are disregarding every single resolution and condemnation from the very UN that supposedly allowed them the right to exist.

    Only nations with a Judea Christian majority subscribe to Zionism although claiming to be secular states which divide God from country.

    You also said (The real problem is that Islam cannot accept a non-Islamic country in their midst, and that Islam wants the world to be Islamic, or to submit to its rule).

    I think with all the Arab villages being eradicated in occupied Palestine by the Zionists, your statement is very true, but of the Zionists themselves, who want Israel to remain a predominantly Jewish state., not the other way around.

    “You also said: (Iraq was the start of something that needs to be finished, true enlightenment for the peoples of the middle east) Isn’t that the FUNDAMENTALIST Crusader mentality that Bush had? Again being fooled by religion?

    At the whiz, nice analysis. No wonder you call yourself the whiz, but don’t try and pander too much to the masses.

    “Sand Ape (may be) a professional agitator to keep thse flames of hatred alive. He/she (may be a mislead) individual that actually believes what he/she writes. I like the balance you display.

    I do agree with your analysis of Arabs theocracies using Israel as the boogie man but do you think Israel really cares? Might I ask you your opinion of Israel’s continual non compliance to UN resolutions besides the fact that the UN are supposedly antisemites as preposterous as that sounds? I can’t believe a civilized nation could use that line. Israel can’t even build illegal settlements unless the Americans agree first. I think it goes way deeper than just the Arabs or the Zionists don’t you?

  43. DWDS; thanks, I always strive for balance, to look at issues rationally rather than emotionally.

    Does Israel really care? I think that they do as it is critical to their survival. They know that the eternal war state that the Arab thugocracies maitain will eventaully bankrupt them. But I wish that they would do more to promote democracy in the Arab world.

    As for the UN, Israel acts in what it perceives as its own best interests, irregardless of UN resolutions. And I tend to agree with them in most cases as the UN is mainly run by corrupt third-world governments. The UN membership mainly votes in what they perceive as their own self interest. And since there are what, twenty five or thirty Arab members in the UN, they will vote to keep Israel as the boogie man in compliance with my previous thesis on how the tyrants maintain power.

    Israel should point out that fact rather than merely cry about “antisemites.” It would make the arguement much more political and based on maintaining power rather than an emotional arguement based on religious differences. This alone would put the Arab tyrants on the defensive and spark a discussion about democracy throughout the Arab world. And such a fact based discussion is harder to refute.

    You state that it is “deeper than just the Arabs and the Zionists” I’m not sure whatyou are referencing there. Could you expand on that please?

  44. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    Just like the US supported the democratically elected government of Iran which was overthrown when it refused to let the US and Britain have access to its oil and had preferred selling it to the USSR and China. The Iranians were immediately labelled communists. Then namely the US, helped topple that government and installed the pro-Western Shah in its place, until he too was overthrown. Obama made a vague reference to something of the sort, hinting that America was not free from any fault, in his Cairo speech to the Muslim world.

    The Zionists were the enemies of the British and the Americans at one point and time. Just like the Iranians were before they helped install the Shah as emperor. Plus the Europeans had already proven that they couldn’t control or protect the downtrodden Jews. So the British and Americans finally had a plan and gave in and sided with the formerly labelled terrorist, the Zionists. These are all facts I am afraid.

    My point being, the West had a democratic ally in the Middle East with Iran until it was overthrown. Don’t you remember the cold war mentality? Basically Israel was phase two but instead has taken the place of Iran as its ideological ally in the Middle East. Whatever the hell America tells Israel to do it does. After all, no nation in the Middle East, except the ones with oil, can survive without Western Aid, including Israel. Especially with large chunks being allocated to the defense budget because of the threat of big bad Israel or the big bad Muslims.

    That is what I meant by “it goes deeper than just the Arabs and the Zionists.” Hopefully you got it now.

    Why is it so easy to get away with this? Because they can.! Also because religion is designed more to control people than it is to help people.

    95% of Jews and Christians side with Israel regardless of the facts because of deep religious convictions.
    95% of all cultures (as long as they don’t have a problem with Muslims) including the Muslims, side with the Arabs.

    No objectivity allowed I am afraid as long as their is religion. All three copy cat books on monotheism hold Jerusalem as the catalyst for armageddon. That’s why everyone has been fighting over it for centuries. Not to side with the Muslims or anything, as they have done extensive harm to the Jews there in the past. But never has any religion held down Jerusalem and allowed all faiths to worship in peace except for a brief 500 years or so under Muslim rule. Therefore “Down with the Muslims – ideology of Bush” seems to be a view that a lot of people could and would subscribe to in the eternal fight for Jerusalem. But unfortunately that won’t work either, the best they can do is keep them at bay for a while.

  45. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    So if the Muslims controlled Jerusalem and were fair about it like that brief 500 year period or so, then the bully theocrats, including western super powers wouldn’t have such an easy controlling everybody including the oil and getting whatever they want. Could you imagine a Middle East with peace? If the Arabs were somehow able to unite as one unit, there would be catastrophic consequences in the West. Therefore divide and conquer is how the game is played and how world politics is played, which is just a big a sham as religion is.

  46. “95% of Jews and Christians side with Israel regardless of the facts because of deep religious convictions.
    95% of all cultures (as long as they don’t have a problem with Muslims) including the Muslims, side with the Arabs.”

    :D

    I’d like to hear your take on the definition of “culture”…

    “But never has any religion held down Jerusalem and allowed all faiths to worship in peace except for a brief 500 years or so under Muslim rule.”

    Actually, all religions have been tolerated in Jerusalem to some extent or other by all of it’s rulers – none of them sported true freedom of religion though… I will, however, agree with you that the real issue is the vying for control of the area by the three monotheistic religions.

    “So if the Muslims controlled Jerusalem and were fair about it like that brief 500 year period or so”

    :D

    Again, I’d like to hear your take on the definition of “fair”…

  47. DWDS; So your sayng that “more than Arabs and Zionists” means that world powers are manipulating things for their benefit. Nothing new there. All countries throughout history have always done so and always will.

    The US has done some pretty dumb things. And that has generated resentment and anger. And now we have to deal with it.

    But as I see it, much of the problems in the ME are more a result of European colonialism and the Treay of Versailles. The borders of most ME countries were drawn up based more on colonial interests than historical borders. Iraq didn’t even exist until it was created after WWI. This has led to many problems that will last for decades more.

    This problems were further magnified by the Cold War and the many manipulations done to counter the Soviet threat. The west supported many thugs in the ME in order to stop the encrouchment of Soviet influence. Would the world had been better if we had let the Soviets slowly take over the ME?

    Add into the mix three powerfull religions and a long history of conguest and dynasty and one can understand why the ME is in a constant state of turmoil. And all these problems make finding solutions that much more difficult.

    But we must move forward. The people of the ME deserve better. And proper policies by the US, Israel, and other powers in the world can go a long way towards acheiving this goal.

    BTW, I must take issue with your “Down with the Muslims-ideology of Bush” comment. Bush that stated many times that the people of the ME deserve better. He stated with great determination that the people of the ME should live under a free and democratic governance. And Bush was the first Pres to call for a free and independant Palistinian state. But Bush was also smart enough to stay out of the fight as long as Arrafat was in charge.

    If Iraq and Afghanistan succeed as free democracies, and if democracy spreads throughoutt he ME as Bush has stated is the main goal, then Bush will have done more for the Muslim world than anyone in the last 500 years.

  48. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    Adam I mean 95% of the worlds population that are not brain washed by the Bible & have falsely perceived the entire religion of Islam as the enemy. ‘Fair’ meaning just and peaceful.

  49. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    Whiz, I agree with you that the people of the M.E. deserve better, but why aren’t they getting better? Precisely because of of foreign meddling, oil, the the worlds weapons industry etc. Don’t you know that Bush realized later on when Hamas won free democratic elections that democracy just doesn’t work in the M.E the same way it does in the West due to the many complexities you described above. so that is a BIG “IF” if you ask me. If there were free elections in Gaza or the West Bank today, or any other country that has suffered the ills of Western lop sided special interest diplomacy, the results would be democratically elected anti-Western regimes holding all the power. Something the West can’t work with, so what were they thinking. For starters they have to be fair and even handed and obliterate DoubleStandards and special interests before giving democracy a real chance over there. As if things werent complicated enough before colonialism yet alone the israeli’s.

    You yourself said that colonial meddling is the root cause of a lot of today’s problems, which I strongly agree with BTW. But as you also said, its nothing new that world powers are manipulating things for their own interests. Peace will not be lucrative for the West, but if it were to be, they would have to start by abandoning DoubleStandards such as those which allow illegal Israeli settlements etc.

    The world is watching….

    DownWithDoubleStandards

  50. Having democratic elections throughout the ME would have some very interesting results. Iraq, Jordan, and Iran would be great allies, the Saudis probably not, Egypt would be a toss up. Lybia I bet would lean towards the west. It would be a huge shakeup of the status quo.

    But it would still be a good thing as the people would then be in charge. And even more important, they would look to their elected leaders for improvement in their lifestyles. And the leaders must produce or be replaced next election cycle. And Israel would no longer be blamed for all that is wrong.

    BTW, the elections in Gaza weren’t exactly free. There were restrictions on parties, restrictions on electioneering., and intimidation throughout. Those elections were about as fair as the ones in Iran. Democracy hasn’t worked more because of tribalism and thugocracies that control the economy and the media.

    And as for Israel, I think they announced the latest settlements more as an affront to Obama than any other eason. And it is a big mistake. Instead of building settlements for Jews, they should be building factories, schools and hospitals for the Palistinian people. They should also engage in such construction in Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, and any other Arab/Muslim country that will cooperate. They can employ Arab/Muslim peoples, train them, and work with them. It would show the people that they are not enemies of all Arabs/Muslim and even make both Isreal and the Arab/Muslim people economically stronger and eventually allies.

  51. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    Nice analysis, Israel should do that indeed, in a Utopian world, that is, however we all know that Israel is so far from that, that it isn’t even funny. Let’s be realistic here, Israel can’t budge without the US’s permission. As you affirmed, the US manipulates the region according to their own personal interests. It is not in the US’s national security interests for their to be any semblance of peace in the M.E. How then will it continue to manipulate the region according to its own interests.

    If America wanted, it could redraw the 67 borders, double aid to the region, hold democratic elections in every M.Eastern country and that would be as good as it gets for the region, but as agreed, it is not in America’s national interest.

  52. I disagree bigtime on your last post. It would be a huge benefit for the US to have peace throughout the ME. The US cannot afford to be the world’s policeman any longer. And since the Soviot Union is in the dustpan of history, it is no longer necessary to support tyrants that are friendly to the US as counter balance to the Big Bear.

    Peace and democracy in the ME wold go a long way to de-fanging the raddicle Muslim terrorists. And the ME would be a great market for US goods as the region awakens economically. And, oh yeah, oil would flow more easily onto world marlets.

    I doubt the US has the power to redraw any lines or demand elections in the region. Israel has become much more independant as of late as they read the tealeaves and saw US support waning. And the tyrants will not release their grip on power very easily.

    Peace, democracy, and capitalism throughout the ME are America’s and the world’s best interest.

  53. DWDS@48:

    Brainwashed by the bible for a false perception of islam? Newsflash: Islam wasn’t even invented when the bible was written – if anything, the bible paints a bad picture of the jews…! As for the modern view on islam, well, people happen to base their opinion on what they observe, and what we observe in the islamic world is generally speaking not very good.

    Right, so “just and peacefull” is the words you would use to describe the dhimmi-concept? Well, I’m afraid we’ll have to disagree on that!

    DWDS@49:

    “Whiz, I agree with you that the people of the M.E. deserve better, but why aren’t they getting better?”

    Honestly, the old adage about people having the government they deserve still holds true… If anything is keeping the ME down in the mire, it’s the refusal of it’s inhabitants to look ahead and face the realities of the modern world.

    “Precisely because of of … oil…”

    Yup, oil sure has been a crappy thing for the ME. All that money and all those opportunities… What society needs them?!? Here’s an idea: If oil is so bad for you, why don’t you just hand it over to, say, a few African countries? I’m sure they’d love the added income.

    “…when Hamas won free democratic elections…”

    A contradiction in terms if ever there was one! One of the cornerstones and the only restriction in democracy is the exclusion of non-democratic ideals – this was obviously ignored when Hamas was allowed to participate.

    “…the results would be democratically elected anti-Western regimes holding all the power.”

    Which would be fine ,except these are practically always of a non-democratic nature, and therefore self-exclusive.

    “You yourself said that colonial meddling is the root cause of a lot of today’s problems…”

    Yes, the colonialism of a century ago… When do you think you people will get around to getting on with your lives? I’m not sure if you noticed, but most of Europe suffered from German colonialism about 60 years ago – how come we haven’t got the same problems? Most of eastern Europe suffered under Soviet colonialism until the early 90′s – how come they haven’t got the same problems?

    “Peace will not be lucrative for the West”

    Peace would be IMMENSELY lucrative to the west!!! Think of all the new consumers we could sell our products to…! And you don’t for a second think that oil has become cheaper as a result of the Gulf Wars, do you?

    “If America wanted, it could redraw the 67 borders, … , hold democratic elections in every M.Eastern country”

    Yeah, the US could do that… Once in a blue moon! :D

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  55. “If America wanted, it could redraw the 67 borders, … , hold democratic elections in every M.Eastern country”

    LOL! We did it in Iraq and look at the stink everyone raised!! ; D

  56. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    Whiz i agree that democracy is the solution but on the regions own terms, not America’s. America knows this but falters and panders too much to the wealthy oil states in order to hold its monopoly on the world banking system that is run by yours truly. Otherwise if peace were so nice for America, how come they keep wounds fresh by arming Israel? So let’s also agree to disagree, shall we.

  57. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    Seriously Adam, you are talking to me as if I am Arab and in the M.E., how so not intelligent of you. To be honest I didn’t understand one word of what you were trying to say. By starting with your misquotation of me: “Brainwashed by the bible for a false perception of islam” As I said no such thing. What I said was: “95% of the worlds population that are not brain washed by the Bible (((((&))))))) have falsely perceived the entire religion of Islam as the enemy.” No direct correlation to the Bible, although you can be lead to your own conclusions. But misquating me is very weak of you indeed.

    So in a way it is very good that the rest of your comment didn’t make any sense what so ever either, as it is hard enough debating people who don’t have the same set of facts, but extremely much more difficult when someone tries to engage in ideological dialogue by starting off by misquoting you. Don’t you think!

    Non sense..

  58. When you bitch and moan, you’re good, but when you rant like this, you’re awesome.. go,monkey, go!

  59. I’m totally confused. Let me see if I can summarize: 1) we’re on a roller coaster that ends in our death, 2) if we know this we should do something nice to other people, 3) by being nice we somehow save ourselves.

    All of this except (1) is totally monotheisitic garbage. There is no saving ourselves. There’s no point in being nice unless you want people to be nice to you, and you’ll die regardless.

    Life is. You are. All beings will not be.

    Trying to come up with political philosophies through metaphysical thinking is seriously deranged (i.e. absolutely normal). Political solutions should come out of a logical process like designing sewers is (e.g. get the shit away from people as fast as you can so they can live their lives with the least amount of shit).

  60. DownWithDoubleStandards, sorry to have implied that you were Sand Ape in diguise, I can plainly see now that I was too quick to judge, you are much more intelligent than him although you seem to fall for the same tripe and conspiratorial rhetoric, myths that Sand Ape and the majority of the Arab world buy into. Regardless I hope you accept my apologies for lumping you together with Sandy, my bad!

  61. DWDS@57:
    Misquote? I take a grossly inadequate statement of yours and reflect on the two conclusions that one could possibly deduct from it:
    1. That you find that the bible gives a false perception of the bible – you said “and”, not “or”, remember…? – which makes no sense, as explained.
    2. That the modern world has a false perception of islam, which may be easily explained by the way islam presents itself.

    In both cases your statement is shown to be pointless.

    The fact that you don’t understand the rest of my post – a series of quotes and reflections on these – well, I can’t say that I’m surprised.

    Now, I may have jumped to conclusions in my assumption of you and your background, and if this offends you I apologize, but in terms of this discussion it matters little – your arguments are still banal at best, faulty at worst, and in any case easily countered.

  62. #34 LOL:)
    That made me laugh:)
    I am surprised the posts have not reached over 100 yet, though. Maybe at around 340, Sandmonkey will come back. I’m concerned. Alcohol really only makes a person feel much worse.

  63. yochanan ben avrohom says:

    Israel exists so allah wills it.

    frankly the only answer for anti semites is a strong army.
    g-d bless the I.D.F.

  64. yochanan ben avrohom says:

    JERUSALEM was a jewish capital city when London, Paris, and Washington were swamps. by the sounds and smells coming from them they still are.

  65. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    pffft…@ your comment “your arguments are easily countered.”

    Yes by misquoting me, which proves the contrary, LOL. Save the apologies, instead admit that you not only assumed things which were not true, but did in fact try putting words into my mouth which I did not say. Be a man about it and admit it. Nothing wrong with coming clean.

    I never said “Brainwashed by the bible for a false perception of Islam” as you so callously put it. You can’t just group statements I made into one statement that suits you, OK.

    I said “95% of the worlds population that are not brain washed by the Bible & have falsely perceived the entire religion of Islam as the enemy.”

    Simply because Islam doesn’t agree with the 259 variations of the Bible (An Israel at all costs) hence Islam is stereo-typed as the enemy. I never said the Bible explicitly mentions Islam.

    Anyways, let’s agree to disagree then, its your right to express yourself the way you want whether or not you truly believe it or not, or whether you agree with me or not.

    Cheers

  66. “whether or not you truly believe it or not”

    Why’d you put the extra “not” in there? Can you understand why your points are easily misconstrued? Everyone else can.

  67. “Yes by misquoting me, which proves the contrary, LOL. Save the apologies, instead admit that you not only assumed things which were not true, but did in fact try putting words into my mouth which I did not say. Be a man about it and admit it. Nothing wrong with coming clean.”

    Sigh. I did not misquote you – I answered the only two possible interpretations of your very crude (and thus equivocal) argument, and showed that neither made much sense.

    My apology as to my assumption of your origins stands firm; this, however, has nothing to do with the fact that your arguments make little sense and can be easily countered.

    I do not blindly condone all the actions of Israel and it’s citizens, nor do I uniformly dismiss every action of Palestine and the Palestinians as being evil and aggressive. I do my best to weigh the actions of both sides as well as look at the conflict in a historical perspective, and I arrive at a conclusion which, by a large margin, favors the Israelis. You, on the other hand, have obviously set your mind from the get-go to such an extent that you’re willing to ignore historical and empirical facts in order to make the situation conform to your “reality”. That is the difference between us, and that is why we, as you say, will have to agree on disagreeing; not because we end up with different conclusions (which is acceptable given the intricate nature of the conflict) but because we base our conclusions on two very different ways of viewing the world…

  68. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    My bad, I meant to say “whether or not you truly believe what you are saying.” Like I said, nothing wrong with coming clean. Thanx

    BTW “Can you understand why your points are easily misconstrued? Everyone else can.” If so, then why misconstrue them in the first place? Got you there didn’t I?

    I would like to read the debate between you and this Sand Ape guy that you are so passionate about compartmentalizing-for lack of a better word, where is he? I back tracked a few threads and couldn’t find a thing. Does he go dormant like I heard the sandmonkey does every now and then? Maybe because its Ramadan and my guess she/he is probably a Muslim.

  69. “BTW “Can you understand why your points are easily misconstrued? Everyone else can.” If so, then why misconstrue them in the first place? Got you there didn’t I?”

    :D Do you actually understand what ted is saying…?

  70. Evidently not Adam.

    “BTW “Can you understand why your points are easily misconstrued? Everyone else can.” If so, then why misconstrue them in the first place? Got you there didn’t I?”

    No, you don’t, “Got you there didn’t I?”

    I suppose you didn’t understand what I meant. If you make a grammatical, syntax mistakes, no one can cipher what your original thought was. I’m not going to be the grammar police here but you might want to proof read what you write before you hit the submit button. Some of you sentences don’t make too pretty good sense.(sarc)

    “she/he is probably a Muslim.”

    she/he seems to be a recent convert.

  71. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    tedders,

    If so, then why misconstrue them in the first place? Got you there didn’t I?”
    No, you don’t, “Got you there didn’t I?”

    No actually, you thought you had me but then I got you back although you never really got me in the first, then you thought you got me again but didn’t, hence I got you a third time LOL. Now it’s your turn to say, ahhh, but I got you just now by you not seeing that it is i who got you three times.. Then I will say, naa, I got you again and so on and so on…

    ….WTF?!

    Too you and Adam thanx for the links. I read Sand Apes posts and it is evident she/he, too simply put it, is of the opposite ideological polarity of you folks ,who dominate this blog with an 85%/15% ratio. I also noticed that he posts twice as much as anyone else here and when someone agrees with him like Nabil Bob, everyone is quick to call the new poster “the Sand Ape in disguise,” as was the case with me as well.

    I also read his last posts and it seems that he has extended an olive branch that was accepted. Yet you continue to take cheap shots at him when he is not even here. I know old grudges die hard but come on.

    In any case let’s hope the civilized dialogue continues, even though each spectrum considers itself to be in the right, accusing the other of unspeakable atrocities. The Israeli’s truly believe they are in the right and the Arabs feel the same way. There are lot’s of loop holes in this conflict and those Arabs are stubborn fuckers and so are the Israeli’s.

    What it comes down to is that it would not be OK for an ousted people to reclaim the land they were ousted from, by today’s standards. But in the case of the Jews, there is a DoubleStandard because of the crimes committed against them and believe that the same persecution that was inflicted on them can lawfully be inflicted on those who oppose them after all the suffering they have seen. So the conflict goes on and on forever.

    Even if it were to end, new disputes will arise as long as all religions vilify the other and try to lay exclusive stakes to Jerusalem. I hope you see my point?

    Olive branches are good, as long as they are not bulldozed and belong to someone else. But of course you wont see it from my perspective if you think I am hinting at stolen Palestinian olive groves. But if I were to say they were stolen from the Jew’s in the first place 4,000 years ago, then you would buy me a beer and give me a pat on the back.

    Let’s hope for Sand Apes expediated return because you guys were on to something good. Keep the faith..and have a nice day :)

  72. “No actually, you thought you had me but then I got you back although you never really got me in the first, then you thought you got me again but didn’t, hence I got you a third time LOL. Now it’s your turn to say, ahhh, but I got you just now by you not seeing that it is i who got you three times.. Then I will say, naa, I got you again and so on and so on…”

    Let’s spell it out, shall we…?

    Ted comments that your articulation leaves some to be desired; that is – it’s easy to misunderstand your point, because your spelling and grammar are faulty. Noone expects perfect english, least of all in a discussion on a weblog, but still, it would be to everyones’ advantage if people made at least a cursory proof-reading of their replies before pressing “Submit”…

    Back to the problem – Ted pointed out that your wording was flawed, and concluded that “you should be able to understand why people misunderstand you, since everyone else can”. Your reply was to ask “why we misconstrue your comments in the first place”, while suggesting that his reasoning is ascew.

    Now, either you don’t know the meaning of the word “misconstrue” or you don’t understand the meaning of “you should be able to understand why people misunderstand you, since everyone else can”.

    In short Ted points out that you are easily misunderstood and that it is obvious to everyone why you are easily misunderstood: because your wording is erroneous. Your counter is to ask why we misunderstand you in the first place… Well, the answer is easy: because your wording is erroneous.

    You didn’t “get him”… There was no self-contradiction in his argument; simply the message that you should be able to grasp why you are being misunderstood, supported by a clear example of you using a double negative.

  73. “I read Sand Apes posts and it is evident she/he, too simply put it, is of the opposite ideological polarity of you folks”

    If only it was so, but then he/she wouldn’t have garnered such animosity and/or ridicule from many of us…

    SA was much, much further out on the opposite branch than any of us on the Israeli side happen to be. Besides using faulty logic and falsified history in his/her argumentation, a high degree of racial/cultural hatred was always present, regarding both Israel and the West in general. Your use faulty logic and falsified history (@20) was probably what made Ted conclude that you and SA were one and the same… It was also what made me conclude that you were arab/muslim/citizen of the ME.

    As mentioned earlier, there is room for differing points of views on this blog. All we can ever hope is to try and coax our opponents a little in our direction by strength of argument. However, as soon as these arguments become (consistently) warped by personal bias or, worse yet, deliberately falsified, any semblance of a proper discussion will soon disappear, and people will stop taking one seriously…

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  75. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    LMAO @ “using faulty logic and falsified history” I have a big problem with anyone’s personal definition of “faulty logic and falsified history.” Sort of like the way you falsified my statements and fused them into one statement that suited YOUR BIAS?

    …”as soon as these arguments become (consistently) warped by personal bias or, worse yet, deliberately falsified, any semblance of a proper discussion will soon disappear, and people will stop taking one seriously…”

    Shut and closed case!

  76. Again, your statement was poorly worded and could be interpreted in two ways – I addressed both; I can’t see what you’re still whining about…?

    By the way, those SA-trademarks of ignoring facts, dwelling on perceived faults, even though they have been disproved, and ranting endlessly are back – I’m beginning to think ted was right after all, back @ 35…

  77. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    Adam my friend, tedders is just a human being prone to make mistakes like any of us are. A diligently worded individual I might add, but best of all, a gentleman with a conscience who possesses the quality of being able to admit when he may have been too quick to judge. Something that both him and I, as well as Sand Ape have all displayed here thus far.

    The reason I pointed out your misquotation of me again, which obviously offended you more than I had wished, is because it offended me. Rubbing it in as you continue to critique perceived undesirable traits within other people, while not stopping to take a refreshing look at your own possible faults. Showing a lack of humanistic remorse and displaying some of the traits which you are busy critiquing. You seem to be the only one who hasn’t gotten it yet.

    It is OK to disagree with someone. I have already said, let’s agree to disagree, but in an amicable manner of course. Just let it go bro. As I am sure you can see as far as trying to make someone lean to your side of the spectrum a little bit, this is a universal method which has proven to be very effective, OK :)

  78. Eid Mubarak ya Gameel!

  79. Eid Mubarak ya Gameel!

  80. Eid Mubarak ya Gameel!

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  84. “The reason I pointed out your misquotation of me again…”

    Yada yada… Glossing it over with nice words and long sentences doesn’t change the fact that your initial argument was ill-worded, and could be understood in two ways, both of which (is this the third or fourth time I’m reminding you?) I addressed, ie. no misquotation. Your failing to acknowledge these facts makes you either dimwitted (seems unlikely) or quarrelling (much more likely) but certainly not vindicated in any way.

    And with that I’ll, as you say, let it go… :)

  85. Update the mf-ing blog already!

  86. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    Adam-
    You just couldn’t let it go could you? It doesn’t matter what you think. That my initial argument was ill-worded. I have already admitted to that mistake. Unlike you, who doesn’t have the humility or human decency to admit misquoting me on purpose. Just because you fail to admit the obvious, that doesn’t mean that you are anything near to being right. Even if you were right, by acting in such a conceited manner, you lose lose every debate before even starting it.

  87. Adam B. 1

    DownWithDoubleStandards 0

    Ding! Next round!!! ; D

  88. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    Thanks for jumping in like that tedders and proving my point that Adam loses every debate he ever starts when he is so conceited. And for allowing me the opportunity to retract my praise of you in comment 78.

  89. ted:

    Sorry, no next round – it’s pointless to keep on reminding the fellow that he wasn’t misquoted, when he consistently ignores your explanation of the obvious. I’m not gonna waste any more time with SA’s twin… :D

    @ZaR up above – I agree; let’s have a blog update, Sam!

  90. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    Good for you Adam, seems like the next best thing to admitting directly misquoting me is making excuses for why you did it in the first place. By implying my words could be understood in 2 ways, according to your feeble comprehension of things. Hence deliberately fusing the 2 possible meanings into one misquotation. Sounds like a desperate red herring to me.

    Oh and BTW…. FUCK Israel too :D

  91. #86
    I totally agree!! I missed the UN thing, and was looking forward to reading about the Gadhafi here. Enough already. Stop being a baby, SM.

  92. Back on topic:

    I’ve had quite a discussion on the off topic board of a danish forum concerning the term moderate muslims, and how/if the term can be used in regards to any larger group of muslims in the world today…

    Before the protests start rolling in, let me clarify that I certainly acknowledge the existence of “true” moderate muslims in this world – our own Sam is, as far as I can tell, a nice example – in so far as a moderate muslim can be defined as

    “an individual, who is prepared to accept that being religious does not equate strict adherence to a book written by a man 1400 years ago, but rather allegiance to a general mindset, which dictates ones morality regarding life in general, as well as an acceptance that religion is a personal thing which may not be superimposed on anyone else, be it family, friend or society, all the while being outwardly frank about this credo”

    The question boils down to this; is there any larger group of muslims anywhere in the world, who can look at the above definition and nod their heads?

    My own opinion is that, at the present state, such a group cannot exist, not even in secular western societies. Islam is a religion of law, and therefore much more strict with regards to the do’s and dont’s of everyday life than, say, christianity, for which it is safe to say that it sports a large, possibly overwhelming group of moderates. In addition, the Quran is traditionally held to be the directly dictated words of Allah, as opposed to the combined, third person history lesson and biography of the life of Jesus that is the bible, and thus much more difficult to question.

    I’m sure most of us here can agree that women are the equal of men, that there is nothing inherently “wrong” with pigs, that sharia law will not result in a an equal society for all, and so forth, but nevertheless, when directly questioned about these things, the majority of even the less religious of muslims in the most secular of western societies will feel that women should dress modestly, refuse to eat pork, wish for a society where the ideals of sharia form at least the backbone of the law, etc… While these individuals, for all intents and purposes, resemble moderates in their everyday life, they would not be able to nod their heads at the definition above – their mindset simply isn’t there yet.

    In anticipation of your chiding on the subject – it’s not that it’s paramount to eat pork in order to be a proper moderate; I know a few christians and atheists who don’t simply because they don’t like the taste. The problem lies in the “why”… Refuse it because you don’t like it? Fair enough. Refuse it because some guy 1400 years ago heard that jews considered pigs dirty and thought they had a point? Bollocks!

    I’d like to hear your opinion, particularly those of you who are muslim, moderate or not…

  93. I forgot one point: Muslim minorities in western societies have formed distinct sub-groups; not surprisingly, since many muslims are first-generation immigrants, whose upbringing have formed their mindset in ways that will not allow them to completely integrate themselves in a secular society. This should not be true for their children or grandchildren, but nevertheless we that many of their descendants have, if not exactly the same, then at least similar problems in fitting in with the rest of society. The root of the problem is social pressure; the threat of social ostracism (not to mention physical punishment) keep many potentially moderate muslims from taking the plunge into the realization of a more individual identity, as indeed it probably would for most of us. Integration and a critical view on the norms that dictate our lives are thus harder to implement than one would have thought, and particularly so for muslims, due to the very direct nature of Islam and the quran.

  94. ” By implying my words could be understood in 2 ways, according to your feeble comprehension of things. ”

    LOL! Couldn’t be your piss poor writing/cognitive skills could it? LOL!

    “FUCK Israel too”

    Nice, Adam wins by default, … again. DWDS you seem to have the “self sabotage” gene embedded in your pecksniffian weltanschauung. Good luck with that.

  95. SM
    Where are you?

  96. #96
    I think we are supposed to stay on topic:)lol
    Curious as to what the conversations would be like without cut/paste..

  97. The priest

    Dim merchant of lies and false order
    Sick thief of life’s joys and pleasure
    Bloated Leech of a people’s blood

    Stench from a pervert’s wasted corpse
    Villain deserving every wrath and curse
    evil speaks deception with unlabored breath

    Forger and fraud of all holy rime and writ
    Howler not of God, but with a devil’s voice
    Testament to nothing but great falsehood

    these are priests of al-azhar

  98. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    an individual, who is prepared to accept that being religious does not equate strict adherence to a book written by a man 1400 years ago.

    LOL…

    Have you no clue what so ever you idiot. The Koran wasn’t written by an man you retard. But then you say the Koran is traditionally held to be the directly dictated words of Allah. Contradictions a la Carte…

    This one takes the cake…”most of here believe that there is nothing inherently “wrong” with pigs.”

    Umm considering the majority of posters here are right wing Zionist Jews who do have a problem with pork, or right wing Zionist Christians who are not supposed to eat pork but still do. LOL, Again your statement is total wish wash. Learn from this good Christian preacher..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQkdRM-S31Q

    All religions forbid pork, alcohol, but Muslims seem to be the only religious group with a majority that actually adheres to what all monotheistic religions were prescribe to its follower’s. maybe that’s why Muslims are so hated, because they are so different and totally blow other religions out of the water as far as adherence to what God prescribed.

    So good luck with that hehehehe…

  99. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    Tedders, no comment..it appears you have had a traumatic ad hominem attack on your anus as a child from a very large Muslim swollen member that has turned you into a full fledged rectal idiot..good luck with that one too buddy :D

  100. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    Oh ya, and FUCK Israel still!

  101. “Tedders, no comment..it appears you have had a traumatic ad hominem attack on your anus as a child from a very large Muslim swollen member that has turned you into a full fledged rectal idiot..good luck with that one too buddy ”

    Ahhh, … welcome back Sandy!!

    “The Koran wasn’t written by an man you retard. ”

    Soooo, … it was written by a woman?

    Islamic belief holds that the angel Gabriel spoke the Qur’an to the prophet Muhhamad and was ordered to recite (because he could not read or write). Muhammad later taught the Qur’an to the followers he gained shortly thereafter, who “WROTE” these teachings on anything they could find, such as bark or leaves, or paper if available. After Muhammad’s death, Abu Bakr compiled these teachings to form the original Qur’an which was “WRITTEN” and spread by the Muslims. As time elapsed differing copies of the Qur’an appeared. This was a huge issue because of the Islamic belief that the word of God could not be corrupted, and the 3rd caliph after Muhammad’s death, Uthman, ordered that all copies of the Qur’an be gathered. They studied each text, and what was deemed as original was compiled to make the Qur’an we see today. All of the manuscripts and parchments or bark and leaves were then destroyed to prevent further corruption, the only issue being that now there is no way of performing a textual study to actually show that the current Qur’an is the original.

    “All religions forbid pork, alcohol,”

    Oh really? Don’t tell that to the Catholics or Protestants!! A Christian can eat most any food. Jesus said that what you eat does not make you impure only one’s thoughts and fixations do that.

    Acts 10:9-15
    Peter’s Vision
    9 About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray.
    10 He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance.
    11 He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners.
    12 It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air.
    13 Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”
    14 “Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.”
    15 The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”

    And lets not forget about Jesus turning water into wine and the Catholic Sacrament of Eucharist (it involves wine ya know!!)

    Must suck to be an ignorant swollen anus fixated individual!

  102. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    Nice try tedders…delusional grandeur extraordinaire again my resident Baptist butt weed. I am not Sand Ape, but it is a pleasure to be called him/her by you. I am not a convert to Islam but an ideological ally to the Muslims whose lands have been pilferage by Western Colonial powers for centuries. Therefore allies stick together, just like you fascist right wing crusading Bible beating Zionist thugs do. Israel still sucks BTW. The manner in which that sorry ass state came into existence and the atrocities it continues to commit, only prove that it is from Satan.

    Now as far as your erroneous knowledge of the Bible is concerned, let me correct you. It is the Bible that has several variations, but as for the Koran, there isn’t one single original Arabic text that is different to the other. You only wish you would be so lucky.

    Compliments of the links Sand Ape left, I would like to direct you to this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YI6gErxo44I
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJluEnIqTVk
    Proving that it is sheer absurdity to believe in the Bible, as it has not only been corrupted into a 1000 variations, but some of the authors were in fact head hunters of Christians. That’s like as if the Jews were to add a Gospel of Hitler to the Talmud. So don’t quote the books of Peter for they are from the unoriginal texts of the Bible. Even though you did not mention pork in Peter’s vision, so you make no sense with your futile attempt to justify the continual ingestion of what God has made unholy to all his creation. I guess you did not watch the video on how impure pork is, as the preacher stated the Bible tells Christians to stay totally clear of pork. Also you did not make a futile attempt at argumentation that Jews are allowed to eat pork, why not? So you and Adam are at-10 vs. my +10. Now to continue the slaughter of your poorly researched babble. As far as turning water into wine, at the time, wine was still permissible to Christians, but was later forbidden by the end of Jesus’ life. Just like wine was permissible to the Muslims for a large portion of early Islamic revelation, until it was eventually forbidden totally.

    So like Sand Ape say’s…

    ” YOU HAVE NO CASE :D

  103. LOL. I couldn’t find anything else to say, and I’m known for my never ending speeches. Well, at least the debate is getting entertaining. “an ideological ally to the Muslims whose lands have been pilferage by Western Colonial powers for centuries” teaching us about the “true” values of christianity. Give me some more, DWDS!

  104. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    OK, here you go Jenny! The difference between Zionists and real Jews, as the Torah forbids a Jewish state http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuAPaKywuLA&feature=player_embedded

  105. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    Here’s another one..A Terrorist Rabbi (protege of Hitler) ordering all Arab Men, women & children to be killed at the hands of Jews. Including desecrating their Holy sites. (the Jewish way, as he put it) LOL. Fucking idiot
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxSleu-mnqQ

  106. DownWithDoubleStandards says:
  107. DWDS @ 99:

    Thnanks for the derogatory swearwords – they do wonders for your argumentative credibility! :D

    To address your grievance: I specify “written by a man” because that’s what I, being an atheist, of course believe. Considering the lack of foresight in the quran (no ban on crack, heroin, and the like and no mention of carbon emissions, deforestation, etc.) so should the muslims, unless they’re ready to accept that Allah was/is not capable of knowing what is to come…

    About pork – oddly enough, I know 3 jews and every one of them eat pork in some form or another. They are of course not orthodox, and my dim view on the muslim ban on pork goes equally on the jewish ditto, as well as those who still practice it. Exchange crustaceans for pork and my argument would be the same…

    Right wing christians (should) have no religious qualms about eating pork. The text you’re probably referring to is from the Old Testament, which by christian standards is to be considered a history lesson, not the word of God. Remember the “an eye for an eye” adage? You’ll find this in the Old Testament as well, but that’s certainly not the mindset taught by Jesus and not one sworn to by christians…!

  108. DWDS @ 103:

    “…the Muslims whose lands have been pilferage by Western Colonial powers for centuries.”

    Uhm, what lands are those? In fact, most of the current islamic world was invaded and converted/oppresed rather forcefully by muslims from the arabic peninsula. If anything, these lands are still under the “colonial” yoke of islam…

    “…your erroneous knowledge of the Bible…”

    Sorry – YOU are the one not knowing the difference between the old and the new Testament. You might wanna look on the differences between these two distinctly different parts of the bible before you jump to any conclusions about christianity…

    ” It is the Bible that has several variations, but as for the Koran, there isn’t one single original Arabic text that is different to the other. You only wish you would be so lucky”

    Actually no… See, the difference between the quran and the bible is that the former claims to be the eternal truth of Allah and thus a set of immutable laws, whereas the latter is the story of Jesus and his preachings, that never tries to be more than a moral compass for it’s readers. Considering the fact that society changes and evolves constantly, I’d take the latter any day!

    “I guess you did not watch the video on how impure pork is, as the preacher stated the Bible tells Christians to stay totally clear of pork”

    Luckily, christians aren’t bound to follow the words of every maniacal preacher with his own distorted version of the “truth” out there. The preacher in question obviously has the same problem distinguishing the old from the new testament as do you, and can safely be ignored. See how that works? :)

    “Even though you did not mention pork in Peter’s vision”

    No, he mentioned ANYTHING… What part of “anything” do you not understand?

    “As far as turning water into wine, at the time, wine was still permissible to Christians”

    It still is.

    “but was later forbidden by the end of Jesus’ life.”

    No. If anything, the bible preaches the avoidance of overindulgence, including the drinking of alcohol. It a (very!) far step from a warning against excesses to the claim of an absolute ban! Again, do a bit of research before you present your assumptions as fact.

  109. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    Three year old girls raped by Jews in Talmud and Bible http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvFQrC_dS0M&feature=related

    Welcome to the ways of Satan, that’s why God has damned most Jews..

  110. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    BTW S’ADAM, Islam forbade all mood altering drugs you idiot, even ones that weren’t invented yet. The word khamr means alcohol and anything that goes to your head. Not that this small detail will make a difference to a cereal box atheist like yourself or an anally retentive Zionist like tedders, “Hail Satan all the way is the song of the day.” So leave credibility and research out of it you Frosty Flake atheist. Stick to your incredulous misquotational style of argumentation, because you have no case and never did in the first place. Don’t even try addressing the above videos you fiasco, you already made a big enough fool of yourself :D . But then again, give it a whack for the entrtainment value of it all.

  111. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    Satanists support Israel.

  112. DWDS @ 111:

    “BTW S’ADAM, Islam forbade all mood altering drugs you idiot, even ones that weren’t invented yet. The word khamr means alcohol and anything that goes to your head”

    Thanks again for the derogatory swearwords – they make you look sooo good! S’Adam – is that supposed to sound like Saddam, and thereby offend me? :D

    Right, so why isn’t smoking illegal? Tobacco certainly has an effect on your brain… How about bodily stimulating drugs that have no effect on your mind, but might be potentially damaging to your body with time?

    “cereal box atheist”

    Care to elaborate on this description? Are you implying that I “found my atheism in a cereal box”…? How on earth does this make sense to you?

    “…because you have no case and never did in the first place”

    Well, at least I’ve made mine, AND backed it up with arguments… You, on the other hand, seem to be too busy making up facts and finding colorful ways of sullying your opponents to actually explain why you feel like you do.

  113. Forgot this one…

    “BTW S’ADAM, Islam forbade all mood altering drugs you idiot, even ones that weren’t invented yet. The word khamr means alcohol and anything that goes to your head”

    How about sedative drugs, to knock you out when you’re about to undergo surgery? Are these forbidden as well? (No, some scholars say – their “good” outweighs their “bad”… Well, who’s to decide? Unless Allah’s booming voice is heard from the skies, the amount of “good” vs. “bad” has to be left to your own judgment, suddenly making alcohol acceptable at your own discretion as well…!)

    I found this on the net:

    “The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: If a large amount of anything causes intoxication, a small amount of it is prohibited.”

    Now, if we are to take this literally, many things will have to be prohibited, including sex and food!!! Can you say goodbye human race?

  114. Forgot another one…

    How about exercise? Exercise can give you a mental boost, even at low levels, and to make matters worse, it’ll even alter your body – exercise must certainly be disallowed, right?

    Which makes me wonder… I’ve found this explanation on the net:

    “There is nothing wrong with plastic surgery if it is used to treat a deformed organ where the operation will offer a better quality of life. However, such surgery is not permissible if it is used for the mere purpose of beautification and altering the creation of Allah.”

    Why? Certainly the deformed shape of someone, either by birth or by accident, is the will of Allah, who is, after all, allpowerfull…? Who are we to determine why somethings are ok to change and others are not. Maybe bigger breasts or an altered nose will do wonders for the self esteem (and consequently the quality of life) of someone?

  115. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    Hey Frostie Flakes…ANY SUBSTANCE shit for brains…:)

  116. DWDS @ 116:

    Hey, Sandy – how about some context in your posts?

    By the way, congrats on your third instance of name-calling… How much good do you think it does your case? :D

  117. fi @ 117:

    “The idea that Christians should actively support a Jewish return to the Land of Israel, along with the parallel idea that the Jews ought to be encouraged to become Christian, as a means fulfilling a Biblical prophecy has been common in Protestant circles since the Reformation”

    What utter nonsense is this? Protestants? Second coming of Christ? Even if we accept this highly dubious concept, we’re talking about judgment day here – very few christians are actually in any hurry for the end of the world. All but a tiny minority of christians consider this a theoretical, theological question (if not an inconsequential fairytale!) as opposed to a part of everyday christianity. In any case, a jewish state of Israel has next to nothing to do with the matter…

    “can u read motherfuckers? PALESTINE”

    Yes, we can read. Palestine was the name given to the region by the league of Nations before handing over control to the english colonialists prior to the establishment of Israel. There has never been a country by that name in the region BEFORE the region was divided into Israel and Palestine.

    Swearwords do little to bring credence or validity to your “arguments”. They just show you like the moron that you obviously are…

  118. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    @ fuckisrael #117, I agree with you 100%. Especially your opening statement that “Christian Zionists believe that the “ingathering” of Jews in Israel is a prerequisite for the Second Coming of Jesus.” I stated to these overbearers of truth and facts that they are simpling getting fucked up the ass by Jews as they follow the 171 known corrupted variations of the Bible. That’s why they started foaming at the mouths like pseudo intellects and rabid dogs.

    Nicely put my friend. The majority of Christians and Jews don’t follow there faith anymore and the Satanists are just dying to bring Islam down as well, but we all know that will never ever happen.

    So let these scum soak in their own shit…and Rabbi’s call for the annihilation of all Arabs and Muslims, while they quote the rape of 3 year old girls from the filthy Talmud. All documented here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvFQrC_dS0M&feature=related and here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxSleu-mnqQ

    God willing ‘HE’ will sort out purveyors of justice from the atheist’s and Satanic scum of the earth.

    DownWithDoubleStandards forever………….

  119. LOL guys, you two should have your own TV show, we could call it, “Dumb and Dumber”!

    I know you two (DWDS and FI) won’t do any research but I encourage everyone else to have a quick glance at some of the tripe that “Dumb and Dumber” subscribe to. In the mean time let’s all grab some popcorn and relax a bit while DWDS and FI boil over with their nonsensical homo erotic profanity based rants! A good time is guaranteed for all, well, … for everyone but DWDS and FI!

    http://www.afsi.org/arablies.htm

  120. “That’s why they started foaming at the mouths like pseudo intellects and rabid dogs.”

    Sandy, if ever there was any doubt about your identity, this phrase definitely let the cat
    out of the bag! :D

  121. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    :D A perfect example of “Dumber and Dumber” is tedder’s gross misuse of any term containing the word “Cognitive” in it :D And SAD’ADAMS (SADAM’S) over use of the smiling face :D after trying to debunk condoning the rape 3 year old girls in the Talmud, :D while calling for the eradication of the entire Arab Muslim race :D

    Satan’s gargoyles indeed. :D

    :D
    :D
    :D
    :D
    :D

  122. “while calling for the eradication of the entire Arab Muslim race”

    Yea, right. Sad and pathetic ramblings of insane demented unloved sociopaths.

    :)

  123. You’ve made some great points on our side of the argument but not yours. The next round of building up our side and tearing down yours in 3, 2, 1 …

    Don’t hold back Sandy, let us know how you really feeeeeel!!! LMAO

  124. “is tedder’s gross misuse of any term containing the word “Cognitive” in it”

    Does that even make any sense? Cognitive is a “term” all by itself. “any term containing the word “Cognitive” in it”, is like saying “any word containing a word in it”, you really are a dumb ass Sandy, you’re outclassed and a rank amateur, Adam is routing you at every single volley. I do give you points for your persistence and longevity though. Most people wouldn’t be able to take the public humiliation nearly as long as you’re willing to endure it! Good on you although it is a self defeating and losing strategy, sort of like when Arab nations continue to provoke a war with Israel. You must love getting your ass kicked! Maybe you have a latex fetish too!

    Additionally, since I’ve only used the word “cognitive” once in this entire thread it seems intuitively obvious to the most casual of observers that you’ve experienced me using the term in the past, … Sandy.

    Hoisted by your own petard! Such child’s play to subjugate your argument with your own words. Like taking candy from a baby!! :)

    Waiting patiently for your usually offensive and lack luster profanity laced ad hominem retort.

  125. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    :D Thanx for the cherry on top teddy bear :D You made my lunch hour my friend :D I really am enjoying the cognitive fermentation of your convoluted thought processes extruding from your rectal incubator :D It is childishly fascinating listening to you and the other defeatists on this blog froth at the mouth and claim victory while getting smoked between the eyes :D How sweet of you :D Jolly Rancher anyone? :D :D All the while holding up heavy mirror’s, trying to deflect back whatever is thrown at you :D If I use the word cognitive, you use it back :D The same goes with the term ad hominem, :D If I use it, you use it back :D :D :D :D Proving that you have no mind of your own and are nothing but a copy paste redneck :D “Monkey see monkey do,” :D ?

    :D The fact that I went back many threads and dug deep into you and your Zionist friends tirades and memorized your mismatched debating styles by heart, is why you are left clueless as to what hit you. Claiming I am Sand Monkey, Sand Ape or Sandy or who ever the fuck it suits you to believe. Just as you choose to believe in the parts of the new testament that suit you and negate nearly the entire old testament which is the most unchanged (but still very corrupted as well) part of the Bible :D

    :D You and sad Adam’s remarks that their is any semblance of a debate taking place here is pure fantasy, as one can not be expected to debate with people who swim away into their own excrement like maggots returning home to a pile of shit :D I see nothing but defeatists convulsing on the ground while frothing at the mouth as your belief systems and faulty argumentation are dismantled piece by piece by fiery facts vs. ad hominem character assassination :D :D Your continual disillusion that you are debunking arguments by not answering them is quite funny :D Typical of professional Zionists who try answering questions with other questions :D When backed up against a wall, out comes the arsenal of ad hominem heat seekers, a weapon of choice amongst Satanic Zionists :D as they can’t debunk facts, so they proceed with these extremely infantile attacks which are grossly ineffective, all the while claiming victory :D

    :D :D Too twist the knife a little more, when they say Arabs are rapists, I point out the FACT that the dirty Talmud has stories of 3 year old girls getting raped :D (what a history lesson):D :D All they can do is pretend that they didn’t hear it and are therefore victorious by default :D :D

    :D : D Now for the same silver bullet between the eyes and heart which will no doubt take you further into the realm of your own belief systems :D

    :D :D
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvFQrC_dS0M&feature=related
    :D :D
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxSleu-mnqQ :D :D

    :D :D Ouch..that must really hurt :D :D :D

  126. dontwasteyourtime says:

    Brother you are wasting your time with these Zionists, trying to talk sense to them is like trying to talk sense to a urinal. I am glad you have quickly realized this. They have no shame. But be very happy, because Russia has just sold their most sophisticated anti air craft weaponry to Iran, making it virtually impossible for Israel to ever attack it. Don’t forget it was Russian anti tank and aircraft weaponry that gave the Egyptians the edge in the Yom Kippur war before Western intervention. The West wants no more intervention especially after Israeli war crimes in the last decade. Therefore Iran will become nuclear and Israel will have no choice but to approach the negotiating table and eventually vacate their posh pool side residences built on orphans land. Hell, both Hitler and South Africa had a good run, but tyranny never lasts.

  127. Sandy (yes, it’s quite obvious, although I can’t say I understand why someone would not stand by who they are?), isn’t it getting a little pathetic by now? I mean, you’ve literally dropped ALL pretense of trying to actually argue your point of view, and turned 100% to make-believe accusations and name-calling on a mass scale. What exactly do you expect to gain from such behavior? Or perhaps more accurately, is ranting incognito at faceless opponents on the net getting you off in some way?

    Judging by the way your posts ramble on incoherently, it’s obvious that you’re working yourself up big time, and it’s hard to imagine someone going through all that work without some sort of release at the end… Is this your way of relieving all that wrapped up sexual tension? You know, getting out of that musty studio flat and awakening your social skills (those that you might have) would do wonders for your mental stability – who knows, maybe you’ll even get someone other than yourself to touch you…!

  128. dwyt @ 127:

    “I am glad you have quickly realized this”

    Sandy has realized that his senseless arguments aren’t making any impact? Hardly…!!! :D

    “…but tyranny never lasts.”

    You mean Ahmadinejad? Or is that Assad you’re talking about? Or even Abdullah? Or perhaps presidents-for-life Mubarak and Gaddafi?

  129. “The fact that I went back many threads and dug deep into you and your Zionist friends tirades and memorized your mismatched debating styles by heart…”

    This is, in so many ways, one of the saddest claims I have ever stumbled across! My, oh my…!!! :D

  130. Denial Ain’t Just A River In Egypt.

    - Mark Twain

  131. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    @ dontwasteyourtime, you are absolutely right but you are missing the entire point :D As I stated in my last comment, it is extremely fun watching them pretend to be making superior sense and claim victories to battles which never took place :D Except battles based on ad hominem attacks as S’ADAM and tedders have proven time and time again but are not very good at either :D Being powerless and having no chance at debunking facts will do that to a person when backed against the wall by an enemy they can not defeat :D I enjoy it immensely :D They know it is morally twisted to be on the side of a people whose religion condones the rape of 3 year old girls as well as the mass murder of civilians in the name of God and then turn around and try and point the finger. Why do you think they like this blog so much? What else would you expect from such a bunch, come on, REALLY?

    I was never trying to talk sense to them, I am just continually sticking them with facts which they so far have been unable to debunk :D — in order to double the pleasure of watching their illusion.

    South Africa, Romania, USSR, China, Philippines all had tyrants running the roost but they fell. We all know this will happen sooner or later. fuckisrael said it well. A few rag tag mountain dwellers in Afghanistan are wreaking havoc on coalition forces and bombs can’t break the will of a quarter of the world’s population. even if Rabbi’s are calling for it and calling it the Jewish way. No wonder Hitler used Jewish ideology against them as it really worked.

    Stick around my friend. Maybe this Sandy guy will return and we can have a feeding frenzy….”BURP” :D

  132. Sandy, watch out with that keyboard – it won’t last much longer the way you keep getting off all over it! :D

  133. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    :D The ad hominem genuis speaks out again :D
    I’m getting off indeed, all over your disgraced face:D

    Sandy….LOL :D

  134. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    I’m just loving this :D

  135. Yeah, I bet you are… But your keyboard ain’t likin’ it too much! :D

  136. john farouk says:

    Sand Ape, downwithdoublestandards, dontwasteyourtime and fuckisrael, you guys are true warriors, gridlocked on a blog filled with people who posses inferior morals and intellects. I like how you handle these guys. Here is a video for you guys, please enjoy and spread on social media sites. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4gymxY2zM8&feature=player_embedded
    It is a great video that I posted named “I AM ISRAEL” I am sure you will see that I am a true warrior too. The spam filter is blocking the link so search YOUTUBE for I AM ISRAEL

  137. “I like how you handle these guys. ”

    Yup, getting nailed again and again on lack of argument, and deciding instead to spew nonsensical drivel under multiple names… He’s sure handling us! :D

    Nitwit.

    “I am a true warrior too.”

    Oh yeah, you’re a real warrior, you are! You’re swinging that blade, unloading that gun, and setting of that bomb right there at your keyboard!

    …not. :P

  138. Isn’t anyone going to mention that the meaning and practices of Christianity are not found on You Tube? I mean Come On!! Is this person kidding? That is like getting my world news from Glamour magazine…

  139. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    LOL @ “lack of argument.” Are you describing yourself? :D getting fucked in the ass multiple times by different people. Yet it comforts you to believe that they are all the same perso; your boogy man no doubt. FROTH, FROTH, FROTH :D

  140. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    Um Claire, you meant the meaning and practices of the Talmud and old testement, which atheists don’t follow i dare that prick Adam to stop talking out of his ass and address any of the vids. Simply because he can’t and will continue to get smoked in the ass. Only assholes argue on the net and he has proven his fate already.

  141. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    This will go on and on and on and on……Ready, steady, 3, 2, 1 go…

    Awaiting adam or tedders infantile personal attacks instead of addressing their intellectual folly. What a diaspora LOL :D

  142. “Denial Ain’t Just A River In Egypt.

    - Mark Twain”

    Hey! I am watching you lol

  143. The Wiz,

    I will gladly agree with you that some Arab states are run by dictators, but would you agree with me that Israel is run by a bunch of thieves also? scandal after scandal of corruption by Israelis prime ministers is not ideal either.

  144. Teddy,

    “In addition the key is not the “Palestinian” problem. This problem could have been solved back in 1947 if the Arab states had accepted the United Nations partition plan.”

    Wrong assumption. When your land is invaded you want it ALL back whether by Ottomans or Brits or Israelis. If France attacks the US today you wouldn’t accept to partition the US.

    Now, if the Palestinians knew that the world will watch settlement after settlement built on their land and they lose most of the land I am sure they would prefer the original suggestion.

  145. Brooklynjon says:

    Twosret is right. When you are dispossessed of your land, it is natural to want it all back. Heck, we were tossed out of that land 1800+ years ago, and we are still, as a nation, aspiring to return. And it is of course understandable to want it ALL back. Now the ultranationalists among the Jews may be a little zealous in their pursuit of ALL the land – agreed. Kind of like the ultranationalists among the Palestinians, who are looking for a land free of any polluting Jewish presence.

    Of course, there is probably a difference between what is natural to want, and what is in your best interest. It is probably in the best interest of the ultranationalists on both sides to cool it, and accept something that is imperfect but liveable. And it is probably in the best interests of the cooler heads on both sides to encourage them.

    And that is why the traditional new year’s greeting among Jews is Shana Tova um’tukah. You should have a year that is good for you, and also sweet. What is good for you is often unpleasant or unsatisfying, like cod liver oil. What is pleasant and satisfying is often bad for you, like that Junior’s Cheesecake. Here’s to hoping that both sides can find a place where there is a solution that is good enough, and sweet enough. And then we can ALL say, together, L’shanah haba’ah biyerushalayim. Next year, may we all join together in peaceful debate in Jerusalem. I’ll buy the sushi and gluten free beer!

    bj

  146. “Israel is run by a bunch of thieves also? scandal after scandal of corruption by Israelis prime ministers is not ideal either.”

    The fact that Israel has exposed it’s corruption is a good thing (and is prosecuting the ones involved) and is because it’s a free and open democracy. What do you think the level of corruption was during the Arafat years (never reported never prosecuted, ever), in Egypt (never reported never prosecuted), Syria (never reported never prosecuted), Iran, and so on and on … Is that something to be proud of? I don’t think so. They all would make Israel’s public corruption trials look like a school girls tea party if there was a dynamic press that wasn’t cow toed by the government in power, moral equivalence is an ugly path to go down. There is corruption on the Arab side that the outside world will never have the chance to learn of. I’ll take Israel’s free and democratic system anytime.

  147. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    Oh my Lord..there really is a God!

    Did tedders just say something that actually entailed a calculated thought process? I am starting to think we may be dealing with a schizophrenic here. One minute he is humble then the next he makes a total criminal ass out of himself then reverts back to being all gullible. What a diaspora indeed :D

    Long live Pfizer..I wonder if redders can press Adam in the same direction :D

  148. Twos @ 144:

    All countries have rotten apples to some degree or other – as far as democratic countries go, Israel may even have more than most. However, given the region they live in and the hostility they face, many are (right or wrong) willing to cut Israel more slack than other democracies. This should not be seen as an excuse for illegal settlements etc; just explain why the outrage is limited – the wrongs of it’s neighbouring countries simply outweigh the wrongs of Israel by a factor 10 or so…

  149. DWDS @ 140-2:

    “Are you describing yourself?”

    No, of course not, Sandy – I presented my arguments several posts back; about the time you and your alter egos decided to drop all pretense at argument and started your masturbatory rant…

    “…and address any of the vids.”

    Why would I? Vids of religious boneheads and ludicrously biased propagandistic clips made by nutcases with the same moral compass as yourself are of no interest, except perhaps as study material for psychology-students … I’d naturally prefer if you’d present your own argument for your point of view rather than referring to brainwash material of dubious quality and even more dubious origin, but of course I have by now realized that this would be far too much to ask from you. Your only concern, it seems, is to get relief for your pent-up sexual frustrations the only way you know how. It really would be kinda sad, if only it wasn’t so hilariously funny! :D

  150. brooklynjon says:

    Adam B.,

    By the way, back in 108 you made a reference to “an eye for an eye”, and used the common understanding of this verse, which is widely viewed by religious scholars as an incorrect understanding. In fact, the verse was not specifying MANDATORY punishments, but rather specified MAXIMUM punishments. It states that the punishment cannot EXCEED the crime.

    Consider how often punishments now exceed the crime (treble damages, for example), and consider how much more common that probably was in the past, and still is in some parts of the world, and even an atheist should be able to see the mercy and wisdom of limits on punishment, regardless of how those words came to be written on that particular scroll. It also helped to establish the concept that the judicial process should be, in part, about restituting victims, compensating them for their losses, and not solely about punishing people for bad behavior.

    I would love to discuss more the relative merits on dietary restrictions (as someone who grew up without them, and who adopted them later in life), but don’t want to bog down this thread which is otherwise filled with such lively, spirited, and informative debate. Cheers!

    bj

  151. bj:

    In the context of my comment, the precise meaning of the adage is not actually relevant, save that it refers to punishment. Jesus (and therefore christianity) basically revolves around love and forgiveness – punishment is not part of the religion at all. Punishment is very much a concept of the secular world, and since christianity is not a religion of law, but rather of attitude, the concept of punishment is one that must be dealt with outside the religious sphere.

    Sure, christians throughout history have made punishment a big part of their religious credo; the frequency of this mistake does not make it any more right, though…!

    Self-inflicted dietary restrictions… I take it you’re vegetarian? ;)

  152. bj:

    On the definition of “an eye for an eye”, I believe the intention is to determine a fixed level of punishment for a specific crime – in other words, the old testament determines that punishment should exactly equal the crime committed or loss caused.

  153. brooklynjon says:

    Adam B.,

    Re 152: Christianity and Judaism are not exactly the same things. It’s not that their different flavors of the same sort of thing, like say chocolate and vanilla ice cream. It’s more like one is chocolate ice cream, and the other is a hamburger (or a cheeseburger :-) ). Christianity is all about morality and sprituality, and such, and more power to it. Judaism is a bit less that, and more about a system of laws for a tribe/nation. So Judaism gets into the nitty gritty of courts of law and penalties for this and that. Christianity gets to punt that to the civil authority.

    I make no claim that one is better than the other, just that they are different.

    And remember, Christianity presupposed the “civilizing” presence of Judaism. Judaism didn’t have that advantage.

    As for 153, I am not a scholar, but my understanding is that these are maximal punishments. There are several offenses that have a prescribed punishment of death. Yet, there are evidently only four times in the history of the Jewish kingdom, which extended several hundred years, that someone was actually executed for these crimes. In fact, one Sanhedrin (essentially a parliament) that executed one person was forever after referred to as the “Bloody Sanhedrin”. Or so I am told. Scholars, feel free to correct me.

  154. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    @ Adam’s comment earlier on in this thread where he stated it does no good for ones cause to use swear words lol, has resorted not only resorted to using swear words but psychological projection of his own inner psyche regarding marathon sessions of masturbation. Bring sexual dissonance into the fold does not only obliterate his own case and corroborate the views of the people he is trying to dispel. But actually puts him on the sexual predator map without him even knowing it. The boy just couldn’t leave it alone and now look what he got himself into.

    Now for a few points on the topics above and to make a synopsis of all my relevant points posted above….

  155. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    @ bj

    “Christianity is all about morality and sprituality, and such, and more power to it. Judaism is a bit less that, and more about a system of laws for a tribe/nation. So Judaism gets into the nitty gritty of courts of law and penalties for this and that. Christianity gets to punt that to the civil authority.”

    So is Islam as I have observed while studying about Islam, there is an entire branch dedicated to such laws as you described in Judaism, called “Fiqh” or translation: jurisprudence.

    Making it extremely hard for Judaism or Islam to water their respective religions down, simply to accommodate norms within secular societies. In my opinion this is why both Semitic religions are so persecuted by today’s secularist’s. The more you water down your religion according to their norms, the more accepted you are. Also in my humble opinion, Islam has refused to water down their religion to pander to rest of the world. Hence being regarded as the most backwards of religions, unable to successfully integrate into secular societies. Therefore taking the trophy home for most hated religion on the planet.

    Now after having said that, it is common sense that each religion or society may have its bad apples. Some of them may be so lucky to be holding power, unfortunately for us.

    So basically you got Islam with about 2% being terrorists. Most of these folks are not holding key positions within the entire fold of Islam. So does that mean that the other billion or so Muslims are terrorists? Absolutely not!

    On the other hand, you have people in key positions in Israel (government’s) continually exploiting the fear factor of its people to continually occupy Palestinian land and build illegal settlements. even though a lot of non Zionist Jew’s as well as Zionist ones, feeling it is terribly wrong and weakens their position.

    So my humble question to you is..which do you think is worse? 2% of Muslims being terrorists and committing atrocities. Or a large segment of of Jews (Zionists) committing equal atrocities. (Without getting into the “eye for an eye” and who started it debate or the which came fist, the chicken or the egg?)

  156. brooklynjon says:

    Down,

    A couple of things:

    There are, as you note, some significant similarities between Islam and Judaism, both in terms of substance (pork, etc.) and in terms of style (it’s political function, in addition to, or perhaps in lieu of, a spiritual function). There are two huge differences, though.

    One: Judaism is a tribal religion. Islam is a catholic (lower case “c”) religion. In other words, Judaism is a religion that is meant to only apply to a particular ethnic group. Islam is meant to apply to everyone. So Islam is inherently expansionist. Judaism is not. Islam MAY seek to impose it’s laws on non-Muslims (granted, not every Muslim thinks this way, and not every Islamic scholar does either, but some do). Judaism does not. Jews, from the most religious to the least, really don’t care what you eat, or what you say about Moses, or what stuffed animal you have on your desk, or whatever.

    Two: Judaism does not forbid interpretation, translation, alteration, commentary, modification. We don’t like to think of it as “watering down” which is a rather loaded term. We think of it as accomodating to new realities. And so while we don’t *necessarily* modify to accept the norms of a different society, we often do, and sometimes we modify a lot. You can call it a weakness, but frankly if we had no flexibility whatsoever, the religion would have been extinguished with the destruction of the Holy Temple.

    As for your political commentary, suffice to say we don’t agree. That being said, can I say a lot depends on where you stand, and when you start history. Sitting in New York, I care deeply about the Islamic nuts who blew up the World Trade Center (with my cousin in it), and I care deeply about the Islamic nuts who were and are plotting to kill randomly on the subway system. I don’t know where you are, and although I’m sure you don’t sanction these acts, you may not be as affected by them as I am. On the other hand, when the settlers in Hebron were evicted from a house they were illegally occupying by the IDF, and responded by rioting against the surrounding (presumably innocent, or at least not guilty) Palestinians, I deplored the act (really, I did) but frankly lost no sleep over it. I do still involuntarily stare at planes as they fly overhead, however.

    Similarly, if history began in 1880, it’s easy to see the Jewish migration to the Levant (I’ll use a politically uncharged term here) as a form of aggression. If history began in 1948, it’s easy to see the invasion of the newly formed state of Israel by armies of the surrounding countries as a form of aggression. If history begins in 1948, the Palestinians, as a people, have been dispossessed of their homes by Jews, and they want them back. If history begins in 135, the Jews have been dispossessed of their homes by the Romans, and they want them back. If you’re a Muslim in a Jewish country, maybe you haven’t been treated fairly. If you’re a Jew in a Muslim country, maybe you haven’t been treated fairly.

    And what, ultimately, determines your perspective, my friend? For the most part, it is an accident of your birth. I don’t know who or where you are, or when you were born. But may I boldly suggest that if I were born to your parents at the time and place of your birth, I would probably think as you do? May I also suggest that were you born to mine when I was, you would think like me?

    Cheers!

    bj

  157. bj:

    I totally agree that there is a distinct difference between judaism and christianity, no doubt about that. That being said, christianity has it’s roots in judaism (as you point out), and Jesus probably never meant to create a new religion, but rather hoped for a change in the existing judaism; something which never came to be. Christianity essentially represents an evolution – or corruption, depending on your point of view – of judaism…

    When talking about punishment (the “an eye for an eye” again…), it’s important to remember supplementing laws and customs – the concept of blood-money was (probably) widely spread, if for no other reason than to avoid generation-spanning vendettas. Blood-money have probably been a considerable factor in reducing the number of death sentences… Just my non-scholarly guess. :)

  158. DWDS:

    @ 155: Well, truth be told, your “contribution” to this thread became so ridiculous and incoherent that some “monster” had to be lurking in the shadows – I concluded the obvious. As for swearwords, I have limited myself to one tiny word – nitwit – which was actually perfectly fitting, and was preceded by a lengthy explanation… very much unlike your cussing!

    @156: My, my… Actual sensible words from your side – I’m impressed! You start out pretty strong (I agree on your assessment of both religions, which also describes why I have particular issues with these as opposed to christianity). However, come your forth paragraph, and enter the blinkers:

    2 % of muslims are terrorists? That’s not the issue… What is important is that a lot more than 2 % of muslims express sympathy or even outright support for terrorist activities! As you point out, there a bad apples in any group, but muslims have a funny habit of elevating their bad apples to heroes and pounding anyone who disagrees into the ground …

    Israels leaders are terrorists? And I suppose muslim leaders are all angels, right? Wrong! Let me once again specify that I have serious issues with the Israeli settlement-policy and the cow-towing of the government to orthodox extremists. However, compared to the “problems” of nearly all muslim governments, these are relatively minor offenses, which could easily be dealt with in an international forum if it wasn’t for their opponents stealing the show completely. As I’ve stated many times before, you guys have to clean up in your own house before you’ll have any chance of winning over worldwide sympathy to the Palestinian cause.

  159. brooklynjon says:

    Adam B.,

    I have to agree with you about the cow-towing. The problem is the Parliamentary system of governance. The nice thing about proportionate representation is that everyone gets a seat at the table. The trouble with it, is that people get a seat at the table whom you wish didn’t have a seat at the table. In fact, small fringe parties often end up as kingmakers. The fact of the matter is, Israel’s polity is so fragmented, that if the Palestinians didn’t exist, Israel would have to invent them to keep the country together politically.

    bj

  160. Man you guys are boring, all this fightin’ bout ancient religion. Why should thousand year old books matter to anyone? When you decide to start an intelligent debate, let me know.

    Twosret; indeed there is corruption in Israel. . .stop the presses!! Name any government anywhere at any level that doesn’t have some form of corruption be it local city gov or church heirarchy or the local TPA. Power and money corrupt. . . .so what’s your point?

  161. excuse me

    @ 156 and @ 157 were actually very good. Especially this part by brooklynjon And what, ultimately, determines your perspective, my friend? For the most part, it is an accident of your birth. I don’t know who or where you are, or when you were born. But may I boldly suggest that if I were born to your parents at the time and place of your birth, I would probably think as you do? May I also suggest that were you born to mine when I was, you would think like me?

    That is an excelent point that if all the peoples of the world would truely understand the signifigance of it, we would all, as the great phlisopher Rodney King once said, “just get along.”

    .

  162. @ adam, props on the improved manners. But as you said, people (are biased) cut Israel more slack for whatever reasons. Meaning there is a double standard, something I dont agree with, hence my name sake.
    As bj said, the Israeli goveroent is so fragmentfd that if the Palestinians didnt exist they would have to invent them. Lol, cheers bj. I agree with which side u take depends on ur parents & the environment u were raised in. Even though u avoided answering the question, as to which is worse. But thats understandable.
    Thanx for your thoughts.

  163. “An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind. ”

    Ghandi

  164. The Wiz,

    “what is your point?” is a question you need to ask yourself when you ranted about Arab world thugs.

    Adam,

    I will cut Israel some slack for treating it’s own Jewish citizens partly democratically but not for the Palestinians.

    Teddy,

    Agree but still waaaay too many corrupted leaders of one country doesn’t make the country better.

  165. 156 dwds,

    IMHO, the three religions have good values and practices for those who want to follow them. The followers of the religions are the problem not Islam, Christianity, or Judaism. People who feel righteous enough to point fingers at others and label them while they can’t see their faults (camel doesn’t see it’s hump).

    The priest in the church I attended this morning was talking about how it saddens him to see brothers in church taking communion not talking to each other and full of hate and anger. I observe how people are so hooked on traditions and festivities and hold it as such an important thing to do and they don’t realize that this is not what matters to God, wether you slaughtered a lamb in Eid or buy gifts for Christmas or build a sukka for Sukkot. What matters to God is your behavior and how you do your best to be a better person and treat people right.

    Treat others the way you want to be treated.

  166. Twosret; Arab world thugs is a problem that can be solved. Will take lots of tiime, effort, patience, and more but the democratization of the Arab world will happen.

    Corruption, however is a human condition that is endemic regardless of the system of governance. We must remain vigilant and expose corruption where ever we find it but it will always be there.

    And that is the difference between the two issues. Pointing out that Israel has corruption is not a valid counterpoint to problem of governance in the Arab world. And the fact that said corruption has been continually exposed in Israel is actually a plus for Israel. It exists in the tyrannies of the ME but there it is accepted rather than exposed.

  167. I’m kinda blown away. I haven’t read the responses but the initial tirade ran true to me.

    My response to modern life seems to be getting angrier at anyone I perceive to be dissing me while becoming more involved in the extended family I’ve ignored for years. Not to dictate or influence, just to be involved. It’s probably due more to being older than the SM than to personal philosophy.

    Religion has no place in my life but I can respect the views of moderates who choose to believe while accepting the views of others. Finding comfort in your beliefs is none of my business unless your ideology requires my compliance.

    Religious fundamentalism is nothing more than secular dictatorship from a spiritual platform, a type of power grabbing that all modern forms of government have refined to a fine art. These \mother fuckers\ are merely doing what any ‘so called’ legitimate goverments do and have done throught the time of our species. Gain and cosolidate, then dictate. The only difference is in the allownace of dissention. Modern/Western government allows, acknowledges and ignores protest. Fundamentalism crushes it.

    One illusion is that either form of government allows inclusion. The other illusion is that either will provide a fundamentally better chance for living in a world of peace and respect for self and Earth.

    Neither is benign though I have a preference

  168. “IMHO, the three religions have good values and practices for those who want to follow them. The followers of the religions are the problem not Islam, Christianity, or Judaism. People who feel righteous enough to point fingers at others and label them while they can’t see their faults (camel doesn’t see it’s hump).”

    There are problems in all religions, some particularly more today than others:

    http://www.islamreview.com/articles/lyingprint.htm

  169. Tedders,

    I am sure if you google Christians are pedophiles or Judaism is evil you will find plenty of articles to support the theories with bible verses and Jewish talmud quotes.

  170. thewiz,

    Thanks for your response, I will be responding to your thoughts today is a crazy busy day, will try tonight.

  171. @ 156-DWDS, 157-bj & @170-Twosret — GOOD ONES, I enjoyed your comments immensely!

  172. Moose @168 “Religious fundamentalism is nothing more than secular dictatorship from a spiritual platform, a type of power grabbing that all modern forms of government have refined to a fine art”

    Bingo! you nailed that one. And the problem is that the tyrants of the ME allow the religious fundies to extoll their hatred as long as it is diirected at outside interests, mainly Israel and the US. Doing so keep sthe people from realizing that their problems are mostly homegrown, watered by the corruption and graft of their own dictators.

    It is this unholy alliance between the dictators and the theocratic leadership that has kept the ME in the grips of tyranny that keeps the ME frozen in the past with dissmal economies.

    Until the people of the ME quit allowing themselves to be so manipulated, life there will remain locked in the past.

  173. DomainDiva says:

    What a wonderful insightful post. Thank you.

  174. “I am sure if you google Christians are pedophiles or Judaism is evil you will find plenty of articles to support the theories with bible verses and Jewish talmud quotes.”

    “Christians are pedophiles” google search produced 45 hits

    “Judaism is evil” google search produced 54 hits

    “Muslims are pedophiles” google search produced 35 hits
    “Islam is evil” google search produced 41,500 hits

    I guess Islam wins for whatever good that little useless exercise was worth.

    Christianity and Judaism have been going through reformations nearly continually since their inception, at least in spurts and bumps. Islam is the only Abrahamic faith that allegedly prohibits that. Christianity and Judaism are perfectly content with people of other faiths, Islam, not so much as it is taught in many places. There are no discussions today in Christianity or Judaism as to if the death penalty should be applied to “apostasy,” “heresy,”blasphemy,” or “adulterers”, in Islam there unfortunately is.

    The extreme branches of Islam taught today believe that Jews are a thorn in the side of the caliphate of Islam. Ancient Islamic books call for them to fight the Jews until the end of time. Thereby helping usher in worldwide Islamic Sharia, in accordance with the commands of the Koran.

    Nothing about this is a secret. There is a crisis of authority going on in Islam today, traditionalists vs. Wahhabis. Obscure fatwas vs individualistic followers. Islam is in a flux between the 11th century and the 21st century. A real and modern Islamic culture has long been needed.

    The following are a series of articles written by Ali Eteraz that seems to capture many of the problems facing the modern Muslim. Regardless of your feelings or knowledge about Islam today these articles are very insightful.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/sep/25/therootsofislamicreform

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/sep/28/theislamicreformation

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/oct/02/anislamiccounterreformation

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/oct/11/beyondislamicenlightenment

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/oct/16/themakingofthemuslimleft

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/oct/17/muslimsecularismanditsallies

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/oct/31/postislamism

  175. The Porter says:

    Twosret,

    on post # 166 you hit the nail on the head,I couldn’t have said it better.

    Cheers

  176. brooklynjon says:

    Tedders,

    “There are no discussions today in Christianity or Judaism as to if the death penalty should be applied to “apostasy,” “heresy,”blasphemy,” or “adulterers”, in Islam there unfortunately is.”

    True enough, but I did once get thrown to the ground by a little old lady in Jerusalem for getting in her way when she was getting on a bus. Does that count?

    bj

  177. CarpetCaptain says:

    “Christians are pedophiles” There are Christian pedophiles hell there’s a bunch of them that are Catholic priests.

    Turette the real question is was Jesus a violent sadistic pedophile who had sexual relations with a 6 year old child and married her at the “ripe age” of 9? Did he promise his martyrs 72 virgins and countless “goulman” (little boys)that regained their virginity (hence the sadistic part) daily ?

    bj Its your charm that makes the old ladies go after you ;)

  178. “bj Its your charm that makes the old ladies go after you ”

    You beat me to the punch Carpet!! LOL

  179. brooklynjon says:

    Et two, Tedders? :-)

  180. Yeah Yeah Teddy, you make it sound like women get killed after belly dancing and punished severely :-)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSr0WutONFs&feature=related

    This is an Egyptian belly dancer the police caught a porn video of her with what she claims to be an illegal husband and this video is after the scandal. I see no whip marks on her and her arms are still there lol

    This one is a Lebanese singer who sings internationally like any other American singer. Still alive and not punished for wearing hijab

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lU24pE7vtM

  181. and Teddy, those sandals of the belly dancer kick Sarah Palin ugly red pumps big time. I know it is hard to focus on sandals on a video like this one but they are clear at 09 second :-)

  182. I’m surprised you try to make light of the epidemic of violence against women in Islam. My first post went to the spam filter, no doubt because of the graphic and horrible violence it shows dished out to women by pious and ignorant Muslim men.

    PS: I’ll take Sarah hands down, I find intellect much more appealing than sexual displays, she can do more with her brain and wouldn’t be caught in public bouncing her lady parts for a congregation of horn dogs.

  183. CarpetCaptain says:

    Tedders we never disagree but when you mention brains and Palin I’d have to diasgree with you as much as I would with Turette, if she said Obama and integrity in the same sentence :D

  184. Carpet you’ve fallen for the MSM rope a dope attack machine.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXSI_ccRUNc

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tobyharnden/5716663/Sarah_Palin_deserves_a_media_apology/

    Compared to our clueless commander in chief, Sarah Palin is an intellectual giant!
    Mrs. Palin (even though everyone seems to forget she was running for Vice President) would make a better President than Mr. Hope and Change, by a factor of 1,000.

    How many people who think Sarah Palin is dumb have ever been a Mayor or Governor? Of course she never was a community organizer or visited 57 states!

    How many people that thought Bush is dumb voted for Obama and now are missing Bush?

    People actually believe Palin said, “I can see Russia from my house”. That was an SNL skit. She never said it but the media has convinced all the dullards of the world she did. Here’s what she did say in an interview with a reporter which is an indisputable fact:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdftnFjQfzs

    At least she knows who was President in 1929 and when teleision was invented unlike her opposing vice presidential running mate Biden. Tell me anyone can’t see the hack job done on her!

    If the media had done 1/10th the investigating on Obama that they did on Palin we wouldn’t be in the sorry position we are in now. I think the media did a hack job on Palin and never touched the candidate that should have been vetted, that’s dereliction of duty in my book. I really don’t know how anyone can see how the MSM treated Obama with kid gloves and then believe anything they say about Palin or anything else for that matter. Had there been equal scrutiny of all the candidates by the media things would be much better now.

    ; )

  185. Tedders,

    My post was a joke about the pumps we laughed about several times here. I guess I wasn’t clear or you didn’t get it lol

    I absolutely agree with no violence against women in any religion or culture, I just disagree that Arab women are beaten up daily and have no freedom at all.

    The comparison was between a sandal and a shoe not their intellect. Silly!

  186. “Silly!” Guilty as charged!!

    LOL I’ll still take Sarah over Biden or Obama, any day!

    More stuff on Sarah:

    http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/separating-palin-fact-from-palin-fiction/

  187. I’m not saying that Sarah should be President, I’m just saying that one to one she is hands down more qualified and more intelligent than the bozo we elected. 2010 and 2012 will be good years for America. Sarah has a future in politics, Obama not so much.

  188. “I’m not saying that Sarah should be President”

    whew!!!!

  189. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    Nice going Twosret..I like how you politely school these folks.

    LOL @ “Sarah has a future in politics, Obama not so much!”

    Ya maybe for inbred Bible belt rednecks, sure why not! But polls have already shown intellectuals as well as middle class Americans unanimously support Obama. He will get reelected so easily it ain’t even funny.

    He is already pandering to the rednecks by staying in Afghanistan and fighting an unwinnable war. It’s been 8 years and still NOTHING!

    Can’t wait til Iran goes nuclear and the damn Zionists will be forced to approach the negotiating table. I’m so happy that there will finally be a balance and God bless Russia for selling Iran the most sophisticated anti-aircraft weaponry. Now that’s a show down the bible belt inbreds and Zionists want no part of. But then again, they are all on a mission to quicken armageddon. But it would be quite the showdown.

  190. “Bible belt: since when is Alaska in the Bible belt?

    “He will get reelected so easily it ain’t even funny.”

    LOL

    If anyone wants to know why the democrats will only be in charge for 13 more months here’s a good article that is self explanatory. Again check out the readers comments, nary a one for the democrats defense.

    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/politics/Congressional-leaders-fight-against-posting-bills-online-8340658-63557217.html

    Interesting article from ABC (All Barack Channel), of course the writer gets it completely wrong. He feels that if Obama doesn’t pass his version of health care reform he’s sunk. Others say that if he does pass his version of health care reform he’s sunk. The article really isn’t that important, it’s just more beltway hand wringing and attempts to put bad policy in a good light. What’s really interesting are the readers comments. Read them if you have time, I did. Completely eye opening IMHO. Let me know what you think!

    http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/10/capital-crunch-obama-confronts-waning-political-capital.html

    Bismarck is said to have said: “There is a providence that protects idiots, drunkards, children, and the United States of America.” Bismarck never saw Obama at the U.N. Sarkozy did.

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/10/02/obamas_french_lesson_98547.html

    Obama’s polling numbers are still falling:

    http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/obama_administration/daily_presidential_tracking_poll

  191. DWDS @ 190:

    “Can’t wait til Iran goes nuclear and the damn Zionists will be forced to approach the negotiating table. I’m so happy that there will finally be a balance and God bless Russia for selling Iran the most sophisticated anti-aircraft weaponry. Now that’s a show down the bible belt inbreds and Zionists want no part of. But then again, they are all on a mission to quicken armageddon. But it would be quite the showdown.”

    Why doesn’t it surprise me that your version of a dream-scenario is nuclear weapons in the hands of an aggressive, despotic, fundamentalist-religious regime…? Just like your obvious reluctance towards the establishment of a peaceful government in Afghanistan; one that would actually treat everyone as equals, despite their race, color, creed, or sex – I can see how that would clash with your idea of the perfect society! :D

    But even so, how would this scenario “force zionists (I take it you mean Israel?) to the negotiating table”? Israel has it’s own nuclear weapons, probably a lot more than Iran will have for quite a few generations – what threat is it exactly that Iran will be able to bring into play, which would force Israel into anything? And by the way, what exactly is it that Iran and Israel have to negotiate?

  192. CarpetCaptain says:

    “Can’t wait til Iran goes nuclear and the damn Zionists will be forced to approach the negotiating table.”

    I’d avoid holding my breath on that! I can see EVEN the French doing something about it before that nightmare comes anywhere close to reality.

    Let me know how your fantasy carries out! BTW whats the negotiation with Iran going to be about once half their cities have been turned into glass by the so called Zionists? Don’t you think that the world has learned its lesson from allowing unstable fundamentalist regimes possess nukes? It hasn’t been six months since Pakistan was making deals with the Taleban for the Swat valley.

  193. And by the way, what exactly is it that Iran and Israel have to negotiate?

    Good question, Adam! It seems bizarre to me that Iran not only interjects itself into a conflict that had nothing to do with its national interests, but then portrays itself as a victim of Israeli aggression… as if it is on the defensive or something!? What the hell is that all about? I doubt anyone would complain if Iran just decided to mind its own business… know what I’m saying?

    But then again it probably seems equally bizarre to some people when the US decides to play “world police” in matters that seem to have nothing to do with America. And the IRI probably does see itself as a peer to the US… they love their delusions of grandeur in Tehran, right?

  194. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    pitiful-LOL @ the ludicrous words typed under the Adam Maidens name: “what threat is it exactly that Iran will be able to bring into play, which would force Israel into anything?”….Read a fucking news paper every now and then will you. Israel is foaming at the mouth and ROF convulsing like a baby over Iran’s development of nuclear power because now Saudi, UAE, Egypt and God knows who else is all following suit.

    And again @ this carpet-vagrant who flew in on a flying carpet – Turban in hand, making absolutely no sense. What kinda English is “unstable fundamentalist regimes possess nukes?” And what the fuck would that have to do with this statement?: “It hasn’t been six months since Pakistan was making deals with the Taleban for the Swat valley.”

    And last but not least…”I doubt anyone would complain if Iran just decided to mind its own business.” Ummm..like having a peaceful nuclear program for example? :D CHUCKLE!

    All red neck Sarah Palin fans I see. Where the heck have the lefty’s gone. Oh ya, they left, get it? :D

  195. “what threat is it exactly that Iran will be able to bring into play, which would force Israel into anything?”….Read a fucking news paper every now and then will you. Israel is foaming at the mouth and ROF convulsing like a baby over Iran’s development of nuclear power because now Saudi, UAE, Egypt and God knows who else is all following suit.

    You haven’t answered the question, ADD. What is it exactly that you think nuke-armed Iran (or nuke-armed Arabs) are going to be able to force Israel to do? Nukes form an existential threat. You can’t negotiate with an existential threat. Didn’t 50 years of Cold War teach the world that?

    It goes something like this…

    Nuke armed bully: Do what I say or I’ll turn your country into a nuclear wasteland!

    Nuke armed victim: Fuck you very much! If you do that I’ll turn your country into a nuclear wasteland, and your ally’s countries too! And if you threaten me again I may be having a bad hair day and do it to you first!

    So, ADD, realistically what does a nuclear Iran change? Do you think anyone is gonna start being nice to Iran just because they have nukes? Buddy, we were at gunpoint with the USSR for 40 years and they had tens of thousands of nukes. You really think Iran with a few 1950s technology nuclear warheads is going to intimidate anyone? All that will change is the likelihood of a catastrophic nuclear war will be dramatically increased. And nobody should be happy about that.

  196. And last but not least…”I doubt anyone would complain if Iran just decided to mind its own business.” Ummm..like having a peaceful nuclear program for example? :D CHUCKLE!

    Yeah, I guess you’re the only one on planet earth who believes Iran doesn’t want nuclear weapons, eh? That is worth a chuckle or two.

  197. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    You wish Mr. Crack..get your hand out of the cookie jar already. You don’t get a cookie today because your statements are self contradictory and your reasoning is shortsighted and flawed.

    WTF even a penis can see the contradictions here:

    “Nuke armed bully: Do what I say or I’ll turn your country into a nuclear wasteland! “Nuke armed victim: Fuck you very much! If you do that I’ll turn your country into a nuclear wasteland.”

    Do I really have to explain to you that when only one side is armed and the other isn’t, it is nothing but pure uneven intimidation? As opposed to both sides having equal weaponry which will prompt each side to actually act diligently. If Arab nations follow suit with Iran then maybe fucking Israel won’t indiscriminately massacre Palestinians for their land if they knew what is good for them. Causing the ultimate bad hair day for the 1.5 billion Muslims inhabiting this world :D

    It is naive to think that there won’t be any more nuclear Muslim bombs for the rest of eternity, just because you don’t like Muslims. Of course you don’t like Muslims, they have all the Oil. How else are you going to take it from them if they are deemed good folks. What did you expect them to do, just give it away for free? God forbid the West isn’t all that accustomed to paying for it after being so used to ravaging whatever they fucking pleased in Colonial the colonial days. That’s what made them the great nations they are today.

    With Israel, colonialism and apartheid continues…no doubt about it. So does the cold war you genius. Iran couldn’t make it without Russia’s TOP OF THE LINE anti aircraft batteries. The same ones the Russians use themselves. Russia likes oil too you know.

    Now as you hopefully can see by your second contradictory statement below, you are indirectly professing all the above.

    “You really think Iran with a few 1950s technology nuclear warheads is going to intimidate anyone?”

    So you are saying that if Iran had top notch nuclear arms and maybe a few strong Arab nations as well (the allies with America) then there might be a chance that the leach of an outcast tribe called Israel may feel even more intimidated then they obviously are already, and think twice about letting Hitlers wrath out on the poor fucking Palestinians. Causing a terrible bad hair day for the other side. The 1.5 billion Muslims :D

    I rest my case!

    I can’t believe I actually had to explain that to you. Whose the ADD motherfucker now numb nuts?

  198. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    Ad hominem fucking attacks and grammatical escapades will get you no where. Try getting to the gist of it by addressing the freaking topic, no matter how much you dislike it and quit acting like a bunch of polarized dyslexics. the balance of power never stays the same, it never has, it never will. Welcome to world history 101.

    Now you can even have post #200. That’s about how many years it will take for the world’s balance of power to shift 2 or 3 times over again.

    Enjoy….I’m going surfing….at least the waves aren’t Zionists :D

    The waves occupy the shores then recede, just like that shit hole called Jeruslem for the past 3,000 years or sos. Get it through your thick heads already.

    See you in a week when there are more lefty’s here :D

  199. Do I really have to explain to you that when only one side is armed and the other isn’t, it is nothing but pure uneven intimidation?

    Ah, that explains why Iran is so careful not to start trouble with America? Not to unjustly victimize Americans? Not to threaten America? It’s because they don’t have nukes? And once they get nukes, what will happen then? Will they seize our embassy and hold our diplomats hostage, perhaps? Or maybe they’ll wage proxy wars against us? Maybe they’ll sponsor terrorism against us?

    As opposed to both sides having equal weaponry which will prompt each side to actually act diligently.

    Yeah. Right. 40 years of non-stop proxy wars between the US and the USSR all across the globe show the proof of that.

    ADD, I stopped reading. If you used your brain half as well as you use your mouth, you might be worthy of the time it took me to get that far.

  200. DWDS @ 195:

    You make little sense – again; please, in your own words, explain how a nuclear armed Iran will be able to force Israel into anything…

    “Israel is foaming at the mouth and ROF convulsing like a baby over Iran’s development ”

    Perhaps, but so is everyone else,PARTICULARLY Saudi, UAE, Egypt and the rest of the countries in the region. An Iran armed with nuclear weapons is potentially another loose cannon á la North Korea. Israel would not be the only country to be feel any effects. It wouldn’t even be the first… Far from it, in fact, unless the iranian regime decided to commit national suicide.

    “Ummm..like having a peaceful nuclear program for example? CHUCKLE!”

    Well, a long as the iranian regime openly boasts of it’s nuclear weapons aspirations in persian, while insisting in it”s peaceful intentions in english, we can be sure of two things: 1. Iran is NOT planning on limiting their nuclear status to “peac eful program” only, and 2. The iranian government is actually stupid enough to believe that noone will notice their intentions if they only speak them in persian. A nuclear armed AND moronically stupid government is an explosive cocktail…!

    By the way, I’d like to remind you again that using swear words and making up derogatory names for others only serve to exhibit your own moral and intellectual shortcomings…

    DWDS @ 198

    “It is naive to think that there won’t be any more nuclear Muslim bombs for the rest of eternity, just because you don’t like Muslims. Of course you don’t like Muslims, they have all the Oil. How else are you going to take it from them if they are deemed good folks. What did you expect them to do, just give it away for free? God forbid the West isn’t all that accustomed to paying for it after being so used to ravaging whatever they fucking pleased in Colonial the colonial days. That’s what made them the great nations they are today.”

    Again, a paragraph that is so full of senseless drive,l it boggles the mind…

    It might be naive to hope for a muslim world without nuclear arms (after all Pakistan have them already…), but wouldn’t it be nice? After all, what do they need them for?!?

    As for Craig not liking muslims… Even if he didn’t, it probably wouldn’t be for having a lot of oil – they’re happy to sell it after all…! No need to “take it”, which no one is doing anywhere anyhow, as you of course know, but conveniently choose to ignore when it suits your purpose…

    Which brings us to your masterpiece of stupidity – you setting up the West as “ravaging” whatever they pleased in colonial times, while putting the muslim world in the position of the victim… What a riot! The muslim society has itself been colonial since its very beginning and continues to be so to this day; unlike the West, which gave up it’s last few colonial aspirations in the years following WWII. The West became great at the expense of others, as did the muslim world before them and the romans before them, etc. Another example of you conveniently forgetting facts when it suits your purpose – a bad habit you’ve gotten yourself there!

  201. DWDS @ 198:

    Oh my, it seems I missed some of your absurdities the first time…

    “With Israel, colonialism and apartheid continues…no doubt about it.”

    I agree that Israel isn’t acting the perfect neighbour, and this is pointed out by the rest of the world – again, Israel’s minor discrepancies all but disappear in the flood that is the arab/muslim aggression against the legal state of Israel, usually amounting to a demand for it’s total destruction. With that kind of argument, no one can seriously expect to be taken seriously.

    “So does the cold war you genius. Iran couldn’t make it without Russia’s TOP OF THE LINE anti aircraft batteries. The same ones the Russians use themselves. Russia likes oil too you know.”

    Lol! The Cold War? There is no (for the time being) threat against each other between the West and Russia. Russia is in need of oil, and has (stupidly) decided to sell some of it’s military leftovers from last century to the iranians. A bad move (one of many) by the russians, but nothing that’ll faze Israel, let alone the West.

    “Now as you hopefully can see by your second contradictory statement below, you are indirectly professing all the above.

    “You really think Iran with a few 1950s technology nuclear warheads is going to intimidate anyone?”

    So you are saying that if Iran had top notch nuclear arms and maybe a few strong Arab nations as well (the allies with America) then there might be a chance that the leach of an outcast tribe called Israel may feel even more intimidated then they obviously are already, and think twice about letting Hitlers wrath out on the poor fucking Palestinians.”

    No, YOU’RE not getting the point… By anyone, Craig is of course referring to Israel, and secondarily to the West. Neithe rof these are going to act differently towards Iran because they manage to produce an immensely outdated nuclear missile. If Iran decides to use it against Israel, Iran is going to simply disappear from the map. If they don’t use it, everything will be business as usual.

    The only ones that may feel intimidated will be the arab nations in the region, which will face the threat of a potentially hostile Iran without the necessary military power to counter a possible attack. Alternately, a nuclear Iran will gain additional oomph in bolstering the cause of dissident groups throughout countries in the region, as they have already done in Syria and Lebanon… Iran will be a threat to everyone BUT Israel and the West.

    “I rest my case!”

    Unfortunately I doubt it…

    “I can’t believe I actually had to explain that to you.”

    You didn’t – you only made more of a fool of yourself, to the detriment of whatever cause your profess to serve…

    “Whose the ADD motherfucker now numb nuts?”

    You are, as you have amply proved during the last few weeks…

    A question: Do you actually know what ad hominem means? You use the phrase so often, but never in a way that actually makes any sense… Could you at least describe when/where you feel Craig is making an ad hominem argument?

  202. DWDS:

    Another question: What is it exactly that Iran wants to negotiate with Israel? I mean, you’re continually describing how iranian nukes are going to force Israel to the negotiating table. What are they gonna negotiate? Irans only demand towards Israel is their total destruction. How can you negotiate that?!?

  203. “Iran couldn’t make it without Russia’s TOP OF THE LINE anti aircraft batteries. The same ones the Russians use themselves. Russia likes oil too you know.”

    If war does break out you’re going to be disappointed Sandy.

    “Israel’s air force has acquired the S-300 and developed countermeasures as part of an assessment that its Arab neighbors will eventually obtain the advanced Russian anti-aircraft system.”

    http://www.worldtribune.com/wta/Archive-2001/me_israel_07_12.html

    “If Russia goes through with the sale of its most advanced anti-aircraft missile system to Iran, Israel will use an electronic warfare device now under development to neutralize it and as a result present Russia as vulnerable to air infiltrations, a top defense official has told The Jerusalem Post.”

    http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1218104239541&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

    Remember what happened to Syrian based Russian AA during Operation Orchard?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Orchard

    Don’t underestimate the capabilities of the Israelis, don’t over estimate the capabilities of the Iranian’s. All the belligerent ME countries talk over estimate their military prowess except Israel, why do you think that is?

  204. LOL

    “Now you can even have post #200.”

    Sand ape!

  205. CarpetCaptain says:

    “And again @ this carpet-vagrant who flew in on a flying carpet – Turban in hand, making absolutely no sense. What kinda English is “unstable fundamentalist regimes possess nukes?” And what the fuck would that have to do with this statement?: “It hasn’t been six months since Pakistan was making deals with the Taleban for the Swat valley.”

    Pretty fucking obvious you’re just brain dead !

  206. http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2009/10/saudi-arabia-behind-obamas-iran-policy.html

    Saudi Arabia Behind Obama’s Iran Policy

    The first and most important thing to understand about Obama’s Iran policy is that it is driven primarily by the concerns of Saudi Arabia, not Israel, as the media and diplomats would have you believe.

    While Israel is most visibly in Iran’s nuclear sights, it is commonly understood in the Middle East that the path to leadership of the Arab, and by extension Muslim world, lies through the destruction of Israel. The consensus of the Sunni Muslim powers, who had lost several wars to Israel, was to limit themselves to proxy wars through the sponsorship of terrorists such as the PLO.

    In essence like Obama, Sunni Muslims had committed themselves to the use of “Soft Power” against Israel, backing terrorists who would murder Israelis and use them as leverage to force concessions from the Israeli government. Iran’s Shiite Muslim regime however has not only hijacked the terrorist strategy, sidelining the PLO and backing Hamas instead, but its aggressive development of a nuclear bomb rapidly approaches an endgame for the region.

    The Sunni Muslim powers who had committed to avoiding any direct confrontation with Israel face the unpleasant prospect of being sidelined and humiliated by a Shiite Muslim victory over Israel. Should Iran succeed in destroying Israel, the Saudi royal family understands that their brief celebration would quickly give way to falling under Iranian dominion… because this would confirm Iran’s role as the regional leader and demonstrate American impotence. No American administration, no matter how much it might be in the Saudi’s back pocket, would go to war with a nuclear armed Iran that had already demonstrated a willingness to kill millions to protect the Saudi royal family.

    The entire article at the link.

  207. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    OMG I don’t even know where to start….This is easier than multiple choice, LOL! Is that the best you guys got?

    “Will they seize our embassy and hold our diplomats hostage, perhaps?”

    ..again, read a newspaper every now and then…FYI information, the U.S. doesn’t even have an embassy in Iran.”

    “Or maybe they’ll wage proxy wars against us?”…only if the U.S. or Israel attacks…then it will be ON!!!

    “Maybe they’ll sponsor terrorism against us?” …According to your FOX news BBC, ABC, CBS, CNN, Murdoch Zionist controlled media brain….they already do, LOL!

    Nice way to retort. by forfeiting :D

    Still numb at the nuts eh?

    And don’t try and bail him out either Adam Sandler, Mr. Zohan….(but what a great laugh I am having on my palm right now)

    “No need to “take it”, which no one is doing anywhere anyhow.” Aaah haaa ha haaaa……HILLARIOUS! Look up Halliburton please and who owns it. Also check Google earth for place called Iraq :D

    ..”Russia is in need of oil, and has (stupidly) decided to sell some of it’s military leftovers from last century to the Iranian’s.” Mwahahaa!!! Top of the line anti aircraft developed and upgraded this decade. …Nice try meat loaf!!!

    …”Iran will be a threat to everyone BUT Israel and the West.” Heeee hee hee hee. This is Hilarious man!

    Here is the biggest proof that you guys live on planet ZORB…”Irans only demand towards Israel is their total destruction. How can you negotiate that?!?”….

    No one ever said that. I challenge you to leave a link where he verbally said that…He said the Ayatollah Khomeini said Israel should have been wiped off the map.

    Israel is a legal state only if you consider thieves (Colonial Britss etc) or the UN which Israhell ignores constantly as anything but crap and illegitimate.

    Oh it gets good, no wait, it gets even better…”The Sunni Muslim powers who had committed to avoiding any direct confrontation with Israel hahahahahahaha face the unpleasant prospect of being sidelined and humiliated by a Shiite Muslim victory over Israel.” Mwahahaha

    What victory….I thought you said Israel is undefeatable, doesn’t the Bible belt teach you that? LOL? So what in the hell are you talking about?

    Now I see why Sand Ape gave up and left, it is crazy even trying to talk sense with you guys.

    Smoke a fucking joint and breathe a little..you guys thinking that you are making any sense is sheer blasphemy.

    Bible beaters and Zionists = 0

    Humanists = 11

  208. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    Where is Whiz or someone with half a brain….this is way to easy.

  209. “Humanists”? Now there’s a laugh!

  210. Russia halts TOR-M1, S-300 air, missile defense missiles to Iran
    DEBKAfile Exclusive Report
    October 12, 2009, 2:55 PM (GMT+02:00)

    Russian TOR-M1 anti-air missile
    DEBKAfile’s military sources report that Russia’s abrupt suspension of consignments of advanced Tor-M1 air defense missiles and S-300 anti-missile systems has left Tehran high and dry for effective weapons to defend itself and its nuclear facilities against attacks.
    Our Iranian sources disclose that extreme frustration prompted the boasts of Revolutionary Guards Deputy Commander Brig. Gen. Hossein Salami Sunday, Oct. 11, that Tehran’s hi-tech missiles can repel any attack against the country. He spoke in the northern town of Sarri.
    Regarding sanctions imposed on the Islamic Republic, he said: “Today, the US is experiencing demise despite its great economic, defensive and military power, but the Islamic Iran has remained abloom amid waves of animosities and blaze of sanctions and the nation’s power and capability are getting stronger every day.”
    Salami went on to sing the praises of the Revolutionary Guards, its power and its missile capability for confronting enemy threats. Our Sejil missiles, he said, can repel any threat and attack.
    DEBKAfile’s military sources note that the two-stage solid-fuel Sejil has a range of 2,200 km., is accurate within a 20-meter radius but is after all a ground-to ground missiles which is incapable of repelling missile or air attacks. The IRGC commander was trying to lift plunging morale in his corps and the Iranian military; both know that denied the top-quality Russian air defense missiles, Iran has no shield against an American or Israeli missile or air attack.
    According to our Moscow sources, the Russians froze the transfers of anti-missile, anti-air missiles to Iran in the expectation of Saudi Arabia following through on negotiations for the purchase of the latest word in Russian anti-missile hardware, the S-400, which is more advanced than the S-300 system now withheld from Iran. It has never been sold to a foreign government and even the Russian army has only two brigades armed with S-400 batteries. The Saudis insisted on making the transaction contingent on Moscow withholding the S-300 and Tor-M1 from Iran.

  211. DWDS @ 208:

    Sigh, you really are a little thick aren’t you? See, those examples, which you are laughing so hard at, are what Iran have already been doing these last few decades, and describe pretty much all that Iran is actually capable of doing… In other words, Iran have already done all that they are capable of, leaving their threats a little empty to say the least! It’s called sarcasm, and a pretty obvious example of it to boot; you should try to look the word up – the knowledge could help you a lot in these net discussions… :D

    No need to take it… Iraq, you say. Who’s taking Iraq’s oil? Certainly not the West; we’re buying it, fair and square. Without the oil, Iraq would have little export of value, and starvation would be knocking on their door shortly. Halliburton? Well, if the iraqis lack the proper resources to get the stuff out of the ground, why not let someone else help? It’s not like “we’re” pumping it out without paying for it… Sorry, you gotta do better than that!

    Top of the line… The russians stopped calling their military equipment top of the line years ago, and with good reason! I see that ted found relevant info on these transactions (or lack of same!) anyway, so let’s just drop that argument, shall we?

    Hilarious… You might think so, but it’s the sad truth – Iran’s muslim neighbours will feel the sting of a nuclear-armed Iran much much worse than Israel or the West, simply because a nuclear-armed Iran will gain little in military power, but much in terms of prestige in the eyes of your average Muhammad.

    Ahmadinejad… Yes, in his 2005 speech he quotes Khomeini, and immediately goes on to agree with him! Please elaborate on how you see this as NOT demanding Israels total destruction? This is logic on the monkey level, for crying out loud! Now, if you truly need links to other instances of him demanding Israels destruction, here you go:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/03/AR2006080300629.html

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-%20%203327439,00.html

    http://gulfnews.com/news/region/iran/ahmadinejad-israel-s-destruction-soon-1.97956

    Happy? Of course you’re not – no amount of in-your-face evidence is ever going to make you accept any other reality than your own imaginary one… Sad. Oh well, at least there is something for the rest of us to laugh about! :D

    It get’s better… Uh, you do know what a “link” is, right? You do know that those aren’t ted’s own words, right? Let me explain it to you: He links to an outside source in the hopes that another persons perspective might make you understand why a nuclear-armed Iran would be destructive to the muslim world (or at least those in power), rather than beneficial. The source postulates that even if Iran were to destroy Israel, this feat would not be in the interest of the leaders of the arab world. Ted might not agree wholly with the reasoning – I’m guessing his intent is to show you why a nuclear-armed Iran is in no-ones interest, whichever way you turn it.

  212. This blog is rapidly turning from most exciting one on the Egypt blogsphere to those blending with the most boring lifeless ones. Either SM is deeply bored, deeply scared , or deeply in love. Has he/or/she ever engaged in commenting on a comment? The blog looks more like a boring serving an organization than a stage portraying honest opinion .

  213. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    Dumb Boy….Now you are doing it again..When you get your ass whooped, literally you say you were being sarcastic :D Plus “READ..I said I challenge you to leave a link (Audio & Video)where he (verbally) said that…[which you were unable to do. Zionist newspapers from predominantly Christian countries don't count, only video counts.]

    Israel is a legal state only if you consider thieves (Colonial Brit’s etc) or the UN which Israhell ignores constantly as anything but crap and illegitimate.”

    Therefore Israel is actually an illegitimate state by default. Yet recognised only as a sanctum for Holocaust victims and as a military proxy for America.

    BTW Saudi doesn’t need the S-400, America already gives them the best hardware. If this article is true then they are buying the S-400′s just to prevent Iran from getting the S-300′s. No big deal.

    The West has way too much to lose from attacking Iran. The retaliatory proxy war alone is enough to hurt the world economy more than International sanctions on Iran have hurt Iran. So enough already…

    Where is the cool minded whiz? Although biased but at least it is a very diligent bias.

  214. brooklynjon says:

    DownWithDoubleStandards,

    Depending on when you start history, you can make all states illegitimate. Or illegitimate. Show me an area that hasn’t been “ethnically cleansed” or “invaded” at some point. You can say Israel is illegitimate because it was founded on the ruins of the Ottoman Empire. Or the Ottoman Empire was illegitimate because it was founded on the ruins of the Crusader States, which were in turn illegitimate because the Crusaders were conquerors too. The only state that clearly never existed there before is a “Palestinian State”. Yet somehow I doubt that you will be complaining that it is illegitimate when it is ultimately created. Prove me wrong.

    bj

  215. brooklynjon says:

    Should be
    Depending on when you start history, you can make all states illegitimate. Or legitimate.

  216. brooklynjon,

    Sand Ape, Sandy (DWDS) has already delegitimized every modern nation in the ME while attempting to discredit the only functioning democracy there. It’s a fools errand but it’s fun baiting him then watching him debase his own arguments, we’ve been having fun with him for quite a while!! Expect him to claim victory at any moment just like the Arabs say they beat Israel militarily in all the wars the Arab nations lost! He’ll follow by saying, “Shut and closed case!” LOL

  217. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    bj I understood what you meant, no worries…

    But with all due respect, your reasoning is faulty on many levels. It is not for you to say that Palestine was never a state. What is your definition of a state anyways? Mongol invaders, Christian crusader’s, Ottoman’s, Britt’s, Israeli’s, who exactly? Please don’t refer to Belford or the UN as we all know that Israel never listens to the Un and claims they are an antisemitic organization.

    As many people here have all acknowledged, everyone has been fighting over what I call that shit hole Jerusalem for centuries. Even alien life forms from planet Zorb like tedders & Adam have acknowledged this fact. They claim that the land belongs solely to the Jews because it was taken from them by Arab invaders or some crap like that. So you are basically debunking their arguments by saying that the Arab Palestinians weren’t invader’s as well. History has repeated itself since the beginning of time. People have resettled Jerusalem for centuries. claiming it is exclusive for one people is evil and why it always falls and changes hands.

    So it basically comes down to deception and the art of war, as who ever holds Jerusalem claims it is rightfully theirs and are the legitimate and rightful owners of it. So as teddy put it , and has done so very well already, psychologically projecting your groups own debasing of arguments, due the the zeal and inflamed passions (foaming at the mouth), while the best excuse his group can come up with when their error’s are pointed out to them is…umm, we were only being sarcastic, or we have been having fun with him for a while now. Psychological projection as its best. Not to mention his boogie man sand ape.

    I do believe people like you who have a soft spot for Israel are sincere and do in fact want peace because you take the debate seriously and have all the more to lose while the others have nothing to lose. That’s why you rarely ever find serious people acting like panzies because I think the secular Israeli’s as well as other world Jews have all had enough and just want peace. The stress factor alone, of the average Israeli is enough to deal with, yet alone a prolonged state of existence is such circumstances.

    But again, I do agree if I were to suddenly say, aah..but now I see the light, now I get it. Palestine was originally stolen from so and so, then you would definitely buy me a beer. And when I say no it ain’t, it belongs to the Arabians, then the Arabs will buy me a beer and probably offer me hash as well.

  218. There was no State of Israel before 1948 but there were Palestinians people occupied by the Ottomans. Reality is that England created Israel and Israel never existed before 1948 but the people of Palestine lived there all along.

    Israel occupied Palestinian lands as they were declaring independence.

    Israeli version of history is there to make invasion and occupation legal and fair. You can’t deny the Palestinians their right just because they were occupied by the Ottomans and claim that there was no Palestine or Palestinians.

  219. DWDS @ 214:

    No, I am saying that TED was being sarcastic… Can’t you tell who you’re arguing with??? It’s really not that difficult – look at the name at the top of the post. You know, right before “says”… :D

    About the links, here are a few excerps:

    “the official Islamic Republic News Agency reported.”
    “According to the Iranian media”
    “Although the main solution is for the elimination of the Zionist regime “…” he said.”

    Those are pretty basic quotes from a variety of newssources – if you won’t accept these, then it’s really not possible to actually put forward an argument that you’ll accept.

    Israel is a legal state, and is viewed as such by the majority of the world as well as the UN. Your personal opinion on the subject is irrelevant.

    Actually, this whole sentence…

    “Israel is a legal state only if you consider thieves (Colonial Brit’s etc) or the UN which Israhell ignores constantly as anything but crap and illegitimate.””

    … makes absolutely no sense! What the hell are you trying to say here? Israel is only a legal state if we consider the brits and the UN as being not crap AND being illegitimate? Makes no sense at all!!! Like the rest of your arguments, I might add… :D

    “BTW Saudi doesn’t need the S-400, America already gives them the best hardware. If this article is true then they are buying the S-400’s just to prevent Iran from getting the S-300’s. No big deal.”

    It is a big deal in as much as it shows how far the arab states are willing to go to keep Iran from amassing power… A lot further than Israel or the West obviously!

    “The West has way too much to lose from attacking Iran.”

    Of course we do – if not, we probably would have done so long ago, considering Iran’s support of terrorism around the world. Mind you, Iran will only be able to take it so far before the hammer comes down…

  220. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    We know that and they know that. What else is new? Violation is violation plain and simple.

  221. Twos @ 219:

    “You can’t deny the Palestinians their right just because they were occupied by the Ottomans and claim that there was no Palestine or Palestinians.”

    The problem with this argument is that it mixes apples and oranges… No, you can’t deny what are today the palestinians their right to live in the area. Only a few fanatical, orthodox jews actually do… However, there were no palestinians before the creation of the Israel and Palestine in 1948. Before that, there were just a mixed group of people living in a general area, which some foreign rulers chose to name Palestine (others called it Trans-Jordan or Phoenicia or Edom or Judah or Moab or Syria). The only thing we can say for certain is that there has never been a country called Palestine or a singular ethnic group called palestinians in the general area before the League of Nations recognized the division of the area into Israel and Palestine in 1948. That, and the fact that the first historical country in the area was Judea…

    But of course you already know this, seeing as how we’ve been over and over this for years now…

  222. Adam,

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjEBQ_bE7uA&feature=related

    There are people in this video that I am related to who have family trees maps up to 300 years back. Please don’t speak nonsense and say there were no palestinians before the creation of Israel.

    Really I don’t mean to be insulting but you are totally wrong.

  223. Has he/or/she ever engaged in commenting on a comment?

    He used to. And not only that, he even commented on other blogs.

    The blog looks more like a boring serving an organization than a stage portraying honest opinion .

    I’m not really suer what that sentence means, but it’s been pretty apparent that he was running out of things he wanted to say for quite a while. Same thing has happened with most bloggers I used to read regularly. Personally, I prefer bloggers who go AWOL to bloggers who run out of steam but try to keep posting anyway. If he gets the urge, he’ll be back. If not, the regulars here from the old days will have the memories :)

  224. Odd, can’t post…

  225. Twos @ 223:

    I have trouble finding the meaning in the vid-link you posted. Your family ties and their family trees are quite irrelevant to the case in point, which is that before 1948, no sovereign state existed in the area and neither did any uniform ethnic group. The area was populated by arabs, jews, christians (both catholic, greek orthodox and other subgroups) as well as various other minority groups, and none of these had any cause to identify with a specific national identity other than perhaps that of the colonial power in charge at the time.

    Have a look at table 2.2 in this link:

    http://books.google.com/books?id=sdYUAAAAIAAJ&dq=Ottoman+Palestine,+1800-1914:+studies+in+economic+and+social+history&source=gbs_navlinks_s

    Does that look like a uniform population to you?

    Like the population of medieval Europe, the inhabitants of the area probably felt allegiance to their family first, local leading/noble family or city council second, religious creed third and country/colonial power last. It’s HIGHLY unlikely that they will have felt an allegiance to a country or an ethnic group that did not and had never existed…! A local arab would have seen himself as a muslim citizen of Akra, answering to the caliphate in Damascus but under the law of the Ottoman Empire. Similarly, a local christian will have seen himself as a christian citizen of Haifa, answering to the Pope in Rome but under the law of the Ottoman Empire…

    The name Palestine itself is derived from the name Philistines (Land of the Philistines) and has, in one form or another, been used to describe (varying) parts of the area by whatever foreign power was in charge at the time, be it Rome, Byzantium, the Caliphate, Turkey or the British. The population will have felt as indifferent to this classification as aboriginal australians will have felt to being called australian citizens, and however they viewed it, the classification was meant to cover muslims, jews, christians and others alike; not just the muslim population… Later generations (post-israeli independence) of muslims have taken the name as their own, and practically invented an alternate history, all with the purpose of continuing a conflict based on religious views.

    Even though we’re talking Wikipedia here, I think the historical maps are pretty relevant in regards to the discussion…

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine

    I don’t mean to be insulting either, but as I see it, you’re the one who’s wrong…

  226. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    Adam this is why you are dead wrong and on the other side of the fence. You obviously didn’t get my point as you have not entirely openned up your mind to rational debate debate by seeing the rational point of view of the other side.

    By saying…”Those are pretty basic quotes from a variety of news sources – if you won’t accept these, then it’s really not possible to actually put forward an argument that you’ll accept.”

    ….So basically if you don’t accept a variety of news sources that are biased as well, then it is your opinion that is irrelevant my friend. Such news sources as Al Jazeera, Al Arabia, Al Ahram, Al Qouts, All Malaysian media sources as well as, Pakistani, Indonesian, Arab, Egyptian and Lebanese Christian evangelical channels – basically representing 10 times the number of people the who support Zionism. So that should tell you something, if democracy does indeed play a factor in your logic — although many of these nations accept Israel’s right exist on paper and a diplomatic level — they actually loath Zionism, PERIOD.

    So by your logic of democracy and New World order, you are actually debasing your arguments. Clearly very biased. Can’t you see the faulty logic [DOUBLE STANDARD] here…you say

    “No, you can’t deny what are today the Palestinians and their right to live in the area. Only a few fanatical, orthodox jews actually do… ”

    Aren’t these fuck face right wing radical Jews who are clearly in the wrong by everyones definition, being protected by the IDF and Western money?

    Just like you say the majority of the Muslim world supports Bin Laden, yet most Arab governments are hunting bin Laden and playing by the new world order rule book.

    Its alll goona change one day my friend, you will see..

    “before 1948 no sovereign state existed.” Again, who is to say what is a sovereign state and what is not, according to who? Don’t say the UN because Zionist hate the UN. So what is your point? :D

  227. Again, who is to say what is a sovereign state and what is not, according to who?

    Didn’t you go to high school? I clearly remember being educated about the basics of human civilization and how it evolved… which includes the concept of a state. It doesn’t come from the UN. It comes from human history.

  228. DWDS @ 228:

    “…that are biased as well…”

    They’re quoting the f’ing iranian news agency!

    Sorry, but I don’t read persian; I’m guessing you don’t either, so linking to a persian site wouldn’t do much good. Finding a vid with subtexts would amount to equally little; chances are you’d just say the text was fudged, and I’d have no way of proving it. Instead I rely on quantity – finding enough different media sources that report the same message for veracity – if you won’t accept that approach, then we have no basis for discussion, since you’re only going to accept views that mirror your own…

    Anyways, you mention Al Jazeera as a reliable news-source yourself…

    http://english.aljazeera.net/archive/2005/10/200849132648612154.html

    In your face!!!! Next time, do a tiny bit of research yourself, ok?!

    And for the record, I view western media as ten times as trustworthy as those you mentioned – free speech has a tendency to lend credence to their media in a way that despotism or theocracies never will…!

    “So by your logic of democracy and New World order, you are actually debasing your arguments”

    No, it’s in the very nature of the system – you can’t compare apples to oranges.

    “Aren’t these fuck face right wing radical Jews who are clearly in the wrong by everyones definition, being protected by the IDF and Western money?”

    I’m guessing you’re referring to orthodox, pro-settlement jews? You’d have to ask the israelis here – the West is mainly concerned with protecting the only functional democracy in the region. Most of us openly condemn the illegal settlements, but seeing as how their wrongdoings are dwarfed by the atrocities of the other side, little attention is given to these condemnations… In short, the hardline supporters of Palestine are doing themselves the disservice of the century. They ought to look at Gandhi – you don’t appear the victim when you’re lobbing bombs left and right indiscriminately!
    ´
    “Just like you say the majority of the Muslim world supports Bin Laden, yet most Arab governments are hunting bin Laden and playing by the new world order rule book.”

    Which just shows the sorry state of morality, not to mention education in the muslim world – we have a big job ahead of us…!

    “Its alll goona change one day my friend, you will see..”

    Damn, I hope so!!! :D

    “Again, who is to say what is a sovereign state and what is not, according to who? Don’t say the UN because Zionist hate the UN. So what is your point?”

    Please, could you inform me of the name of the leader of the pre-1948 Palestinian state? How about his/her cabinet ministers?

  229. Was it King David? That was pre-1948. Ooops, couldn’t be because he was the leader of the Kingdom of Israel ;-) You know the Jewish state in what much, much later became known as part of the region of Palestine.

  230. Adam, clearly… “since you’re only going to accept views that mirror your own…” Clearly there is no point in discussion. Perfectly describing yourself, I said ages ago let’s agree to disagree, but you just couldn’t stand someone having a different opinion than you. Since you are an atheist I am just going to have to leave this one alone. There is so much more wrong with you than can be fixed. BTW, these countries don’t recognize Israel:
    Morocco
    Algeria
    Mali
    Niger
    Guinea
    Guinea-Bissau
    Chad
    Libya
    Sudan
    Somalia
    Syria
    Lebanon
    Iraq
    Kuwait
    Saudi Arabia
    Yemen
    The UAE
    Oman
    Iran
    Afghanistan
    Pakistan
    Bangladesh
    Indonesia
    Malaysia
    North Korea
    Cuba
    Taiwan

  231. ohhh, a couple of teetering “islamic” democracies, that persecute horribly non-muslim religious minorities, a cast of, clinging to a dead ideology socialist Marxist dictatorships, and a plethora of islamic policestates deployed against a tiny nation. They still can bitch slap islamic ass. Some of these stalwart group have through government spokesfilth expressed genocidal intentions toward Israelies. Taiwan doesn’t even know whether it’s a country or not. As we speak the Chaldean population of iraq maybe experiencing … How many dead do you need?
    Before you call it a genocide, That list above, if those were my friends, I wouldn’t brag about my friends. I have no concern other than opposition for the political opinions of a country that doesn’t allow women to drive, ruled by fat bastards glorified only by oil money and mosque exportation. Somolia doesn’t doesn’t recognize Israel. poor Somalia doesn’t have a government to recognize shit from a hole in the ground. Sudan, is on your list of shining stars that haven’t recognized Israel…. are you serious? a government actively engaged in a race based ethnic cleansing. Wasn’t the jizyawad bashir indited by the world court for something akin crimes against humanity.
    HMMM overwhelming muslim, I wonder if islam contributes to their refusal to acknowledge the fact of Israeli’s existence. The fact that Egypt and a …. are there anymore … well, Egypt has relations with Israel and is a muslim country, so it can’t be even partially islam that keeps this mess churning Oh ya Turkey has relations with isreal, rapidly deteriorating relations that happens to correspond with the election of a soft islamist party. The middle east is so islamically insane. The West has plenty of faults, we are only human, but I would be the Citizen of any Western Country than any of your countries listed as not recognizing Israel. The muslim brotherhood slogan, ” islam is the solution”. Islam is the problem, lamentably, that’s what muslims turned it into. Looking at the koran, I don’t know if they have much choice.

  232. Can we play the game where we try to figure out what the countries on ADD’s list have in common?

    Taiwan

    Taiwan has a little problem of its own in that it isn’t even in the UN and China claims it as a breakaway province. I’m not sure anyone even asks them if they recognize anyone else’s sovereignty. It was super-nice of you to include them on your list though! I’m sure they appreciate the gesture.

  233. DWDS @ 232:

    So, no comment on the Al Jazeera article? I thought not… :D

    Evasive action! My bluff has been called! A quick change of topic to remove attention from my blunder!

    :D

    Nice list you put together up there – I’m sure Israel is sorry that it’s not recognized by despots and theocracies around the world! I see others have already commented on your inclusion of the non-country Taiwan… :D

  234. ADD & ADC (Adam, tenders, Cameron), let’s see what you all have in common besides a putrid hate for Islam; the father of all religions. The fact that you fail to see that the list above encompasses nearly a third of the worlds population. Add the Arab countries that have ties with Israel who hate Israel even more than the countries listed above; then you have a majority of the worlds population. So what you guys think is irrelevant. World opinion and majority rules. I will go with the world majority any day.

    Camshaft, you lost all credibility for open debate with your shenanigans and Muslim hate poetry. You wont ever be taken seriously, at least for a very long time to come.

    Adam, no pun intended but you said yourself the debate between us has ended long ago, as it is useless talking to each other. I don’t live in a box, I am diverse, unlike you. Plus Gaza war crimes and crimes against humanity that Israel is now formally charged with, is in no way shape or form even comparable to (apples & oranges) what surrounding countries do.

    Craig, no comment buddy. You are at best schizo or a two faced liar. A few threads ago, you agreed you don’t have a problem with Islam itself but only with the Muslims that try and kill innocent people (in retaliation for innocent Muslims killed BTW :D ). Then later you say you hate Muslims and anyone who lives in a Muslim country deserves what is coming to them. I can’t debate with someone with double standards, note, my namesake.

  235. You’re a riot there little guy, I always find hilarious that muzzies
    and their apologists try and draw their delusions, fantasies, denials as emanating from some sort rational perspective. Here let me spell it out
    for you, If you think old mohammed was perfect, or the koran is the dictate of God. you qualify, by the rest of the world’s standard, as a religious fanatic.
    As a religious fanatic you lose your rationality rights. It is funny though to see you scramble and reach for an argument, and convince yourself your coherent. Since you mentioned verse, Here is another rude one to make muzzie heads explode, see poems like this only upset fanatics, see if you can figure it out,

    The fucker, mohammed

    mohammed fucked abu baker in the asshole
    fucked ‘im hard with his false prophet’s lying pole
    Straight in abu baker’s prayer raised ass
    Like he was a slave, like he was a boyish lass

    lucky abu baker, cock in balls deep
    abu baker pretends he’s sound asleep
    mohammed sunk it in real slow
    thinkin’ after abu baker can blow

    him clean, with this shit stained cock
    cause on abu baker’s soul he has a lock
    wide awake or deep in nightmared sleep
    knows he’s getting fucked, but not a peep

  236. DWDS @ 236:

    “putrid hate for Islam;” – I have no putrid hate for Islam; rather, I have a rational dislike of any arbitrary, delusional idea, that controls the actions and thoughts of humans, ie. all religion. Islam just happens to be by far the worst of these, at least in it’s current guise.

    “the father of all religions” – more like the son of all religions, seeing as how it’s the youngest, and in many ways a blatant copy of what came before…

    “the list above encompasses nearly a third of the worlds population” – yes, the least educated and most biased third… Not to mention that the populations have little or no say in the official decisions of said countries! By the way, in as much as many of these countries are members of the UN, and the UN officially recognizes the state of Israel, so, by default, do they…

    “Arab countries that have ties with Israel who hate Israel even more than the countries listed above…” – please, name these… and please, describe how you conclude that they hate Israel even more.

    “then you have a majority of the worlds population.” – how on earth do you arrive at this conclusion? Math isn’t your strong side, is it? China, India, Europe and North America alone constitutes well over half the worlds population…

    “You wont ever be taken seriously” – then at least you two have one thing in common! :D

    “I don’t live in a box, I am diverse, unlike you.” – joke of the day! :D In all honesty, I’m not arguing with you; I’m thoroughly enjoying myself pointing out the fallacy and/or stupidity of nearly every comment you make, and seeing you dance to avoid having to face the facts…

    “…is in no way shape or form even comparable to (apples & oranges) what surrounding countries do.” – I agree totally. Illegal settlements and pinpoint strikes against terrorist activities is beyond comparison to indiscriminate attacks against civilians and foreigners as well as demands of total destruction. The only problem is that the opposition is so fragmented that there is really no leadership to formally charge. How do you persecute an ideology?

  237. As I said before, the conversation between us is so over Adam. You can think you won and all that, I really don’t care buddy. You are not at my level or anyone elses here, not even Cameron. Cameron is just ignorant and rude but not retarded as well.

    You on the other hand are the pinnacle of retardedness…Did they try to abort you at birth or something? Are you really so seriously stupid that you don’t know….

    “The populations have little or no say in the official decisions of said countries! By the way” So if you really are anti-oppression, your heart would be with these people.

    “Arab countries that have ties with Israel who hate Israel even more than the countries listed above…” – please, name these… and please, describe how you conclude that they hate Israel even more.” Let me introduce your retarded highness to Jordan, Egypt, Kuwait, Qatar, UAE who do have ties with Israel but hate it with a passion. Not to mention the many Arab Christian coalitions against Israeli Zionist occupation and apartheid.

    “Then you have a majority of the worlds population.” – how on earth do you arrive at this conclusion? Math isn’t your strong side, is it? China, India, Europe and North America alone constitutes well over half the worlds population…Exactly ADD, China alone is 1/5 the worlds population and they definitely don’t recognize Israhell.

    Should I go on?

    You don’t like being proven wrong do you. These are facts buddy.

    Salam sucka!!!!

  238. DWDS @ 239:

    I wasn’t aware we were having a conversation… I’m just pointing out your follies, one by one.

    “You are not at my level ” – Correct, and I haven’t been there since, ohh, third grade? :D

    “So if you really are anti-oppression, your heart would be with these people.” – In some ways it is. Unfortunately, I doubt things would be much better if many of these people were given a say in matters – the level of education and insight is simply not there yet… But that’s an entirely different story, and besides, this twist is just another of your attempts to move focus away from your shortcomings…

    “Let me introduce your retarded highness to Jordan, Egypt, Kuwait, Qatar, UAE” – You already included UAE and Kuwait in your first list – they can’t both recognize AND not recognize Israel, can they? And you can document that Jordan, Egypt and Qatar hate Israel more than those of your initial list how…?

    “they definitely don’t recognize Israhell” – Israel was the first country to recognize communist China as a country (the communist nature of the kibbutz societies no doubt had a large role in this) and despite China’s refusal to recognize Israel – likely a result of Israels ties to the west more than anything else – informal contact evolved during the 80′s, and formal ties were established in 1992. Indeed, China have actually…

    http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-5582790/China-urges-Hamas-to-renounce.html

    …publicly urged Hamas to recognize the state of Israel!

    As a curiosity, China (as defined by themselves) is only recognized by 23 countries…

    “Should I go on?” – Please do; you’re apparently the source of endless wonder and entertainment.

    “You don’t like being proven wrong do you. These are facts buddy.” – Self-awareness really isn’t one of your strengths, is it? Along with rational thinking and thorough research, it seems… :D Masochism, however… Now, there is field where you excel!

  239. Adam you are just thick. No point in trying to entertain your boring life any longer. Bottom line, democracy rules. More people on earth renounce Israel than they do support it. You can claim they are not important all you want mr pseudo elitist. Who cares what you think, you think you were born out of the big bang, atheist; hehehe :D

  240. See what islam does to a human mind, Adam B. While not all muzzies are terrorists, the religion itself has a corrosive effect on all their minds. Probably something to do with knowing islam, sharia, hadith, and sunnah are all fraud, the biggest lie ever sold to human beings, knowing this deep down. Knowing the truth and not being able to accept it. Imagine the psychic tension and stresses that must create. The reason that they have to go on and on about how islam must dominate, and kill people cause somewhere somebody said something or drew a cartoon that satirized muzzie beliefs . Why islamic “culture” is so scared of apostates, or anyone who tells the truth, “that mohammed was a most likely suffering from a mental illness and was a liar, thief, and rapist, among other deficiencies.” The shear terror experienced by muzzie men, so terrified of their sisters, mothers, and wives, well women in general that they murder them in the name of honor. Refusal to admit the truth growing out of the islamic teachings and psyche created by a religion that sanctions lying and deception in the service of islam, a’la al takkiyya. A cultural trait demonstrated by Turkey’s refusal to man-up to the Armenian genocide or the arab world’s massive historic slave economy. A trade in blacks that continues to this day. Self deception is the islamic trait par excellence, Egypt one of the birthplaces of human civilization, Egyptians have one of the longest histories on the planet. Once glorious Eygptians now think of themselves as arabs, Copts are persecuted daily and viciously, maybe because they remind muzzie eygptians that they are thoroughly colonized not by Europeans, but by the arabs, and the vehicle for this colonization … the lie that is islam.

  241. Then later you say you hate Muslims and anyone who lives in a Muslim country deserves what is coming to them.

    I don’t feel that way and I’ve never said any such thing. You’re either a shameless liar or you are delusional. Should I flip a coin? :D

    Actually maybe it’s both.

  242. DWDS @ 241:

    No. And feel free to respond to my criticism above…
    Why not? :)
    Yes.
    No.
    They’re the uneducated, uninformed of the bunch, which of course is actually not their fault.
    I was, as are we all…At least I have a coherent theory supporting my claim; not some childrens’ fantasy.

  243. Craig @ 243:

    If he is indeed Sandy, the “shameless liar” bit goes without saying. In any case, he’s certainly delusional – reality is what fits his view of the world…

  244. How would you like it you pussy if I dropped the link where you said “Anyone who lives in a Muslim country deserves what happens to them,”

    It wouldn’t even make a difference to you would it? You would find some way of saying it doesn’t say that or that you were being sarcastic. I have never seen such a bunch of shameless misfits who can’t agree to disagree. Then when someone proves you wrong, you say that you in fact proved them wrong. When someone leaves a distinct foot print on your face after you pick a fight with them, you shamelessly say that distinct foot print belongs to your shoe. How can you argue with that.

    If I were a Muslim fundie I would probably blow the likes of you guys up too.

  245. DWDS @ 246:

    “Then when someone proves you wrong, you say that you in fact proved them wrong”

    A shinning example of the pot calling the kettle black – a finer description of yourself can hardly be found! :D

    “If I were a Muslim fundie I would probably blow the likes of you guys up too.”

    And if the West shared that ‘glorious’ mindset, the ME would be a smoldering heap by now… Congratulations on once again emphasizing what it is that the rest of us so vehemently oppose.

  246. ““Should I go on?” – Please do; you’re apparently the source of endless wonder and entertainment.”

    Touche’ Adam! Sandy is certainly entertaining to me!!

    “If I were a Muslim fundie I would probably blow the likes of you guys up too.”

    Notice he doesn’t say “blow up you the likes of guys”, he says, “blow the likes of you guys”! Bit of a Freudian slip there I’d say! Keep it going Sandy! You must be the life of the party where ever you go or blow!

  247. LOL @ “a shinning example of the pot calling the kettle black – a finer description of yourself can hardly be found!” You wish silly Billy. Ha ha, he said she said, I said, you said…bang bang YOUR DEAD!

    What is it that you don’t understand, about the term..”LETS AGREE TO DISAGREE?” Your obsessive compulsive analogy disorder decrements your debating efficacy.

    Atheists…blaaaah!

  248. tedders it is definitely you, with your vast repertoire of misappropriated Bible beating psychological self-analytical & self-descriptives that is most entertaining, indeed. Especially your paranoid bewilderment of the boogie man Sand Ape. You have been doing that quite a bit eh? One minute you think.

  249. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    …..One minute you say you were too quick to judge and that I definitely am not your worst nightmare; the Sand Ape. Then the nest your are bewildered again. Leading me to misjudge you as a diligent human being who had the ability to come clean.

    You guys are the epitome of this blog post — FUNDENTALISTS — as you really don’t like it when someone doesn’t agree with you. Keep stroking your ad hominem cocks and patting each other on the backs while blowing each other. I heard it works wonders in prison, so touche’ to you both indeed :D

  250. DWDS @ 249:

    What part of “I wasn’t aware we were having a conversation… I’m just pointing out your follies, one by one.” don’t YOU understand? ;)

    DWDS @ 251:

    What exactly is the definition of this homespun term ‘fundentalist’ that you’re attributing us? :D

    Seriously though… No, it’s not that we dislike it when people disagree; it’s when people make up their own history that we get cross. It’s when people distort numbers and ignore facts that we get irritated. It’s when people bring religion into the problems of the world, and expect everyone else to accept their religious arguments and reasoning without question that we get annoyed. It’s when people avoid arguing the points of their opponents and turn to name-calling that we loose respect. There’s nothing wrong with a heated argument, as long as it’s just that; an argument, and not a an all-out, unfounded, unthinking verbal assault from one of the parties…

  251. We can all disagree on the interpretations of many a point…

    “Does an ancient connection to an area mean that you have an eternal claim on said area?”
    “Does centuries of occupation of an area that your ancestors invaded constitute a claim to said area?”
    “Do you have a claim on an area half a century after your ancestors annexed it?”
    “Does the instigation of war deprive you of any claim if you’re on the loosing side?”

    These and similar disagreements are what should form the backbone of any discussion of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Unfortunately, more often than not, distorted numbers, facts, and history are brought into the equation, changing the nature of the exchange from an argument to a fight.

    One example would be the claim that a Palestinian state existed in the area before 1948. Historically, no such country has ever existed; not even a clearly defined area that can beyond doubt be claimed as having been universally known as Palestine. Historical maps and records clearly show this, but still some people on this blog insist that prior to 1948, Palestine was a sovereign country, which was invaded by jews and subsequently torn apart. The insistence on such historical fallacies makes it hard to get anywhere in an argument…

  252. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    Well I would like nothing more than to AGREE, if if it is to agree to disagree. Believe that!

    But you strangely believe that your version of history is superior….unfortunately that is where you jumped off the cliff.

    Don’t you know, many a historian have sworn their version of history is the right one, in contrast to other historians gospel truth conflicting views? Nothing new here buddy.

    There is some truth to all the points you brought up, but for “Big Bang’s Sake” choosing only one as the truth and the absolute truth is senile.

    In my opinion, Israel was the final vein in a corrupt tyrannical era. Inseminating the legacy of piracy, colonialism, apartheid. I bet the power players are all watching it like a cock fight right now. But as I said a zillion times “Power changes hands ll the fucking time,” especially in that pit called Jerusalem.

    Remember, agree to disagree

    bitty bye bye

    To think that nations with a certain bias towards a preferred version of history (as they are complicant in its documentation) have the right version is non sensical.

    “but still some people on this blog insist that prior to 1948, Palestine was a sovereign country, which was invaded by Jew’s and subsequently torn apart.”

    Well even if this was the case, there would be plenty of Israeli supporters.

  253. DWDS @ 254:

    Not superior – correct, or at least closer to correct than many others… One version of history can’t be “better” than another; it can be more correct. History is what has happened up until now, and since we don’t live in several, parallel universes, there really is one absolutely correct history. Now, none of us can hope to know the absolutely correct history, but we can at least strive to get close, which means getting at least the major facts straight. Like, for instance, recognizing that there was no Palestinian nation prior to the creation of Israel in 1948.

    “But as I said a zillion times “Power changes hands ll the fucking time,” especially in that pit called Jerusalem.”

    If that is your view on things, then why so upset? The jews were the first in history to own the land. The romans took control but were eventually replaced by the byzantians. The muslims invaded around 800, but were thrown out for a few hundred years by the crusaders, untill they returned in the guise of the Mamluks, which were eventually thrown out by the Ottomans, until these were defeated in WWI and the brits took control under a mandate from the League of Nations. Jews have lived on the land throughout history, christians since the death of Christ, and muslims since around 800. As you said, rulers have come and gone, so why are you so adamant that the muslims are actually the “true owners” of the area?

    “Well even if this was the case, there would be plenty of Israeli supporters.”

    Perhaps, but that an assumption that we’ll never the right or wrong of…

  254. To think that nations with a certain bias towards a preferred version of history (as they are complicant in its documentation) have the right version is non sensical.

    Yes… I’m sure that the Arab version of recent history is much more unbiased than anyone else’s. After all, Arabs have no reason to promote a one-sided viewpoint. Everyone can see that.

  255. You would find some way of saying it doesn’t say that or that you were being sarcastic.

    So you are preemptively canceling my right to correct you quoting me out of context, or misquoting me entirely? And why would you do that, if you had a solid case against me?

    The only circumstances I can think of in which I might have said what you attributed to me (since it’s not my opinion) is that you said something very much like that in regards to Israel, or the west – and I turned it around so you could see how that mentality looks from another perspective. And if that’s the case, well… isn’t it special that you didn’t pick up on what I was doing, and then went on to attribute your own extremist views to me just because of a rhetorical device I was using?

  256. Whinw, whinw, whine…!

    I’m genuinely sorry for the victims of the recent suicide bombing in Iran (at least those not associated with the oppressive iranian army) but I can’t help feeling a sense of smug delight at the iranian theocrats getting a taste of their own medicine! Of course they’re whinning like babies and blamming every Tom, Dick and Harry…

  257. Aymen Digitalis says:

    Ya ostaz Sand Monkey, enta fain? It’s been months since you last posted anything. Are you hibernating waiting for a better future to transpire? Well since I know you are a “links” addict, here is an amazing video that I hope will bring you out of your slumber. I know this is off topic, but something tells me you are going to dig programmable matter :) Seriously though, if this video is true then surely we aren’t far away from producing programmable matter to some extent. But how long do think it will take to make a suitcase that can turn into a seat? And when we do, will world peace prevail? :) :)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icS9KU1bf6I

  258. One, I never said Muslims are the true owners of Jerusalem. Anyway’s there is a double standard that is sure to blow up in their faces. As they get out of any condemnation because they are the poor age old persecuted tribe of Judea the traitor. Illegal settlements etc. as well is this…

    The Haavara Agreement was an official contract between the Third Reich authority and Zionist Authority benefiting the interests of both parties. Haavara was intended to promote both the emigration of German Jews and the export of German products to Palestine.

    In 1935 the steamer “Tel Aviv” made its maiden voyage from Nazi Germany to Haifa with Hebrew letters on its bow and a Nazi flag fluttering from its mast. The Captain of the Zionist-owned ship was a member of the Nazi Party. A passenger described the spectacle as a “metaphysical absurdity.”

    As a result of the Agreement, German exports arrived in Palestine at bargain prices with the help of Jewish capital and Jewish commerical assistance. It boosted the Nazi economy at a time when Jews worldwide were boycotting German goods. Goods worth a total of 139.5 million Reichsmark were transferred by 1939. The Agreement also made it possible to settle a large number of German Jews in Palestine. The outbreak of war in September 1939 ended the transfer practice.

    See the agreement text here :

    http://hubpages.com/hub/The-Haavara-Agreement

    http://www.codoh.com/incon/inconhaa.html

    http://www.geschichteinchronologie.ch/judentum-aktenlage/hol/EncJud_haavara-agreement-1933-ENGL.html

  259. Adam B said:One example would be the claim that a Palestinian state existed in the area before 1948. Historically, no such country has ever existed; not even a clearly defined area that can beyond doubt be claimed as having been universally known as Palestine. Historical maps and records clearly show this, but still some people on this blog insist that prior to 1948, Palestine was a sovereign country, which was invaded by jews and subsequently torn apart. The insistence on such historical fallacies makes it hard to get anywhere in an argument…

    Adam, Zionism is the weakest ideological project of our modern time….read Pappe’s ‘A history of Moden Palestine’, ‘The Israel/Palestine question’ or ‘The ethnic cleansing of Palestine’…They totally discredit your claim to ‘fallacy’….

    Craig said:Yes… I’m sure that the Arab version of recent history is much more unbiased than anyone else’s. After all, Arabs have no reason to promote a one-sided viewpoint. Everyone can see that.

    Noam Chomsky, Norman Finkelstein, Naomi Klein, Joel Kovel, Tony Judt and Illan Pappe all share this in common: They are excellent scholars/historians, they are Jewish, and they are strong critics of Zionism and the Israeli state….

  260. asem:

    I’ve asked this before in this post: Please, provide evidence of a pre-1948 Palestinian government… If you can show me proof that such a government has existed, I’ll take my claim up to reconsideration. Until then, I’ll assume that you live in the same world of “relative” history as DWDS and Twos…

    By the way, how you’ve managed to mix this up with zionism I have no idea, since there is pretty much no connection between the idea of a jewish state in what was in ancient times Judea, and realizing that no sovereign Palestinian state has ever existed. Just another example of a one-track-mind in action, I suppose…

  261. DWDS @ 260:

    “One, I never said Muslims are the true owners of Jerusalem.”

    Well, you keep on referring to the Palestinians as being the muslim inhabitants of the region, and comments like “Israel is a legal state only if you consider thieves (Colonial Britss etc) or the UN which Israhell ignores constantly as anything but crap and illegitimate.”, “…as the Torah forbids a Jewish state”, and “Satanists support Israel.” …pretty much shows your view on any jewish claim to anything in the area.

    “The Haavara Agreement…”

    You seem pretty focused on nazi-jewish cooporation; perhaps you should consider that the agreement you’re referring to saved the lives of some 50.000 jews prior to the holocaust, a development that was foreseen by the instigator of the agreement, Haim Arlosoroff. The price for these lives were an end to jewish boycot on german goods, and goods to be exported was bought with jewish capital, which would otherwise have been confiscated from the immigrants by the nazis! Talk about twisting the arm! You can be quite sure that the Haavara Agreement came to be out of desperation rather than through any love between nazis and jews!!!

    Some muslims, on the other hand, had a nice bit of cooperation going on with the nazis, with the explicit goal of wiping out all jews in the middle east – http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_grand_mufti.php

    You really must have some special blinkers on, in order to miss the obvious…!!!

  262. @ 261, Nicely said “Asem,” but the views of the supporters of Zionism here are so one sided I am afraid you are wasting your time. Adam perfectly described his own behavior by pointing out the obvious one track minded thinking syndrome An age old debating impairment twhich helps considerably in avoiding the identification of lop sided thinking. Going ahead and call you the one track minded person first, as they know you will eventually be throwing it at them. Not a very productive tactic I am afraid.

    Zionism has everything to do with the occupation of Palestine yet, Adam says:

    “there is pretty much no connection between the idea of a jewish state in what was in ancient times Judea, and realizing that no sovereign Palestinian state has ever existed. Just another example of a one-track-mind in action, I suppose…

    See what I mean? There is a huge connection by his own reasoning. He fails to read what he writes. There was no defined state of Judea — as he put it, in ancient times — just like the argument there was never a defined state of Palestine either. Fact is that the area was called many things by many people through out the years but the most important fact is that it was also called Palestine as of the last few hundred years, THE BIBLICAL NAME.

    Plus pointing out Jewish atrocities doesn’t mean I explicitly imply that the land exclusively belongs to the Muslims, that’s non sense. If the scenario was reversed and the Muslims were committing uneven atrocities against the Jews, then I would definitely be on the side of the Jews.

    It must be fun being an atheist and being on the same side of Zionist Crusaders which you by nature should loath quite a bit. I guess you just loath Muslims a whole lot more, right Adam?

  263. asem,

    Noam Chomsky, Norman Finkelstein, Naomi Klein, Joel Kovel, Tony Judt and Illan Pappe all share this in common: They are excellent scholars/historians, they are Jewish, and they are strong critics of Zionism and the Israeli state….

    Noam Chomsky is a mathematician, a communist, and an American dissident.

    Norman Finkelstein is just a fraud, as far as I can tell.

    I don’t know who the rest of those people are, but I assume since you put Chomsky and Finkelstein first that they are your best sources. If I was you, I wouldn’t be promoting such obviously biased people as evidence of a lack of bias. It just seems a bit absurd. It’s a bit like referencing Nazi scientists from the 1930s when talking about integration in an mulitcultural society. And yeah, people actually do that. But nobody listens.

  264. “Noam Chomsky, Norman Finkelstein, Naomi Klein, Joel Kovel, Tony Judt and Illan Pappe all share this in common: They are excellent scholars/historians, they are Jewish, and they are strong critics of Zionism and the Israeli state….”

    Noam Chomsky is a libertarian socialist, a political philosophy commonly described as libertarian socialism include most varieties of anarchism (especially anarchist communism, anarchist collectivism, anarcho-syndicalism, mutualism,[ social ecology, autonomism and council communism). Some writers use libertarian socialism synonymously with anarchism and in particular socialist anarchism.

    In other words Noam is a nutjob, nobody but nobody with a functioning brain could possibly buy into his topsy turvy fantasy belief system. Do a little research about anarchist communism, anarchist collectivism or anarcho-syndicalism and tell me you think the world could function for one hour with those ridiculous ideologies! Coo coo!

    http://web.archive.org/web/20021204232909/http://www.goldhagen.com/nda0.html

    [quote]:
    When my book was finally published in German, several things became clear to the German public. The initial attacks constituted a discourse of avoidance that deflected attention from the real issues, the new materials, and the conclusions that my book brings forth. It was also obvious that many of the critics simply did not want to discuss these central issues that had hitherto never been forcefully put before the public: Why did so many ordinary Germans (however many did) support and even participate in the persecution of the Jews and how did long existing antisemitism (however widespread it was) contribute to their actions?

    http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/deutschland-uber-alles/

    I think Normans website should let any sane person know what a tool he is, should be self explanatory to everyone but Sandy or evidently asem.

    You must really be scraping the bottom of the barrel to use useful leftist idiots like the ones you’ve listed as a source of rational and logic. Being Jewish doesn’t make them right, there are mentally ill Jews in the world, these are some good examples you give.

    asem says, “They are excellent scholars/historians”. They are marginalized nutjobs without equal.

  265. DWDS @ 264:

    “Nicely said Asem”

    Yes, very nicely – he/she manages to play the same old tune, with as little evidence to support his/her claim as everyone else, including you. Very nice, indeed… :D

    The rest of the paragraph doesn’t really make much sense grammatically, but I’m guessing you’re saying that I’m as one-track minded as yourself? I disagree, and ask you to post an example. Until then, I hold firm that any argument, which supports itself on the idea of a pre-1948 state of Palestine, is void by default, due to the fallacy of it’s assumption.

    “Zionism has everything to do with the occupation of Palestine yet…”

    Zionism has everything to do with the foundation of a jewish state in what was once Judea. It has nothing to do with accepting the fact that no sovereign Palestinian has ever existed before 1948. As I said…

    “There is a huge connection by his own reasoning.”

    No. Only indirectly, in that the supporters of the palestinian cause (at least those on the extreme front, who see everything related to Israel as inherently evil) have made up an alternative history to support their cause.

    “There was no defined state of Judea”

    Sure there was. Here, have a read…

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judea

    Ancient Judea may not have covered the exact area of today’s Israel and Palestine, and it may have changed in size through history, even changing name from time to time – that’s the way history works, after all – but there certainly has existed a defined, sovereign state of Judea, unlike a state of Palestine.

    “the most important fact is that it was also called Palestine”

    Is that the most important fact? That foreign rulers and dictators have used the name Palestine (a word derived from the Philistines, a small group of people, probably greek in origin, living in an area not much bigger than todays Gaza) in one form or another to refer to parts of this general area? Even if we accept this sillyness, why would the name Palestine be the “sole property” of the arab/muslim population? The name Palestine was used by the romans centuries before any arab set foot in the area, and before anyone had thought of the word Allah. If anyone could call themselves palestinians, it would be the jews and christians…!

    “Plus pointing out Jewish atrocities…”

    You’re not pointing out jewish atrocities; you’re branding the state of Israel as illegal and comparing israelis and many others with satanists…

    “…and the Muslims were committing uneven atrocities against the Jew…”

    You mean like this?

    http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/02/22/jerusalem.blast/

    How many civilian israelis have entered palestinian cities and blown up palestinian civilians with no warning? A handful perhaps…? As compared to the hundreds of attacks the other way. I’d call that uneven!

    “It must be fun being an atheist and being on the same side of Zionist Crusaders which you by nature should loath quite a bit. I guess you just loath Muslims a whole lot more, right Adam?”

    I’m on the side of peace and peaceful co-existence. Both sides in this conflict have issues towards this goal, but I only hear one side screaming for the eradication of the other! As for loathing… I dislike all religions – they’re childrens’ tales and cavemens’ explanations that control the lives of most adults on this planet, and I find this sad in the extreme. That being said, I have no moral qualms about classifying religions and cultures according to my view of the ideal society, and islam/the arab culture are certainly low on the list, mostly due to their conservative, backward nature and their lack of reform.

  266. brooklynjon says:

    Adam @253,

    Interesting questions.

    “We can all disagree on the interpretations of many a point…

    “Does an ancient connection to an area mean that you have an eternal claim on said area?”
    “Does centuries of occupation of an area that your ancestors invaded constitute a claim to said area?”
    “Do you have a claim on an area half a century after your ancestors annexed it?”
    “Does the instigation of war deprive you of any claim if you’re on the loosing side?”

    As always, it depends on when you decide history started, which is mostly determined for each person by the accidental circumstances of their birth.

    The discussion of whether or not there was every a sovereign political entity called “Palestine” seems odd to me, for two reasons. One, the answer is pretty obviously “no”. But two, it begs the question, “What difference does it make?” National or Ethnic identity and political sovereignty are not at all the same things. To the best of my knowledge, the Basques and the Druze have never had political sovereignty. The Assyrians haven’t for the last 2600 years or so. But they are nevertheless recognizable ethnicities. And where “ethnic group” ends and “nation” begins is anybody’s guess.

    The relevant question is whether the Palestinian Nation (note caps) existed as a distinct national or ethnic group prior to, say, 1948. And the answer, fairly, has to be a definitive “maybe”. There are a number of factors which Sociologists use to define ethnic groups: religion, language, cuisine, culture, traditions, history, etc. The Palestinian people share many traits with the greater Arab nation, although there are certainly regional differences. At what point “regional differences” transmogrify into separate nationalities is hard to define, and reasonable people can disagree.

    One thing is for certain. Since the events of 1948, the group of non-Jewish Arab citizens have had a very different experience than the group of non-Jewish people in the occupied/disputed territory, who have, in turn had a very different experience than those in the surrounding Arab countries. At some point, these different experiences will magnify the cultural differences between these groups, which is already often manifest by mutual distrust among these groups.

    In other words, it is not clear that there ever really was a cohesive nation or ethnic group called “Palestinians” prior to 1948. But it is entirely possible that the fact of Israel’s creation may have actually resulted in the establishment of a “Palestinian” nation.

    bj

  267. BJ @ 268:

    “In other words, it is not clear that there ever really was a cohesive nation or ethnic group called “Palestinians” prior to 1948. But it is entirely possible that the fact of Israel’s creation may have actually resulted in the establishment of a “Palestinian” nation.”

    This is not as much a question as a fact. Nobody (here) is arguing against the legitimacy of such a state, either, but the problem is that supporters of the palestinian side of the conflict have 1: invented reasons to support their arguments, and 2: chosen to ignore similar claims from the opposite side…

  268. brooklynjon says:

    No, my point has nothing to do with the legitimacy of a state. As far as I’m concerned, I’m more than happy with those people who are currently called “Palestinians” having a sovereign state. What I am curious about is, if you could resurrect their ancestors who lived in, say, 1800 or so, and ask them what was their “ethnicity” or “nation”, what they would say. I don’t claim to know the answer, but I’d be pretty darned surprised if they said “Palestinian”. While the desires for an independent Palestinian state are entirely understandable, the claim of it’s righteousness on the basis of an ancient stateless nation seem to strain credulity a bit.

    And yes, the delusions that the Kingdoms of Judea and Israel never existed, and that Jews did not continuously inhabit that area are explicable only on the basis of politically motivated wishful thinking.

    bj

  269. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    I loved this….”but there certainly has existed a defined, sovereign state of Judea, unlike a state of Palestine.” Mr. lop sided obsessive compulsive reasoning..Judea & Palestine where all called so BY OTHER PEOPLE as WELL as THEMSELVES. Its simple atheist farm boy putz. Jews live on a land and call it Judea, others call it Judea too. Arabs, Jews, Christians, Muslims live on a land and call it Palestine –Check the Bible, not Wiki mr weak — what is so hard to understand paper boy – ? Take a fucking Prozac man.

    If the Jews were still getting fucked up the ass, say by Muslims, I would be on the side of Jews. But since it is vice versa and both nations have the right to the land, FUCK JEWISH ISREAL you MONGROL. What part of that do you not understand you tar brained atheist. It ain’t like you don’t have enough problems by thinking you are a test tube baby born on the bottom of the ocean floor; created by a big fish that peed in your ancestors ear !!!

    No one ever said this cock sucker “Palestine be the “sole property” of the Arab/Muslim population?” No matter how much you are corrected you seep puss back out of your anal orifice. Talking shit Like Philistines was an area smaller than Gaza….quoting Jerusalem post and Judopedia for your evidence and what not. You fucking biased danish racist fuck. You lost any sembelance of respect with your mentally perverted rhetoric.

    Go to bed already OCD LOSER

  270. brooklynjon says:

    Okay, I guess I won’t recommend my children read that last post for an opposing point of view…
    But I did learn some new words! :-)

  271. Hey Sandy, you lost any sembelance of respect with your mentally perverted rhetoric. Grow up dude, learn to debate.

  272. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    Respect bj,

    I wouldn’t blame you for not recommending it. It is not directed at you but more or less those who agree with adams riiiiiiiiight wing views. He has some good points which are accurately decapitated by OCD spasmodic convulsive projections, for example, if I say I am against Jerusalem being occupied by one ethnic faith, he immediately assumes that i mean that it should belong to only Muslims and that I agree with Hamas.

    What I do agree with though is that Jews have the absolute eternal right to worship in Jerusalem just like Christians and Muslims do. I also believe if the tables were turned and Arabs were doing to Jews what Israel is doing to the Arabs, I would be on a plane to slit some Muslim Arab throats if I could.

    Why is Jerusalem always occupied by faiths?

    In any case my friend, when Jews occupied it they were just as intolerant as anybody was (king David for example). While on the other hand when the fucking terrorist Muslims occupied it during the Andalusia era, it was fair and square peace on earth. Who cares how it got that way, under the historical tyranny that surrounded Jerusalem, an iron fist was needed for equality and peace and that is as good as it ever got over there for all faiths.

    If the Jews were smart, they would have proved the whole world wrong by emulating the Andalusia era and proving they are a strong even handed unit for equality and peace. But nooo, they want a pro Jewish ethnic state with Jerusalem as its capitol, go figure.

    Empires fall all the time, even your Tora says that if you don’t mind me saying. Nuclear weapons might make it last a lot longer but still history will not choose one religion over the other. Who cares who holds Jerusalem when it is finally blown to kingdom come? Israel indeed is a strong empire, for sure, no doubt about it. With the most awesome PR machine that has ever existed in the history of man, but they had better chill the fuck out and stop misinterpreting the gift God has given them if they want it to last. Israel asked for a fight and they got one, now don’t expect the elements opposing kids being run over by tanks in Gaza and being burned with white phosphorus to just suddenly give up. There is always somebody smarter, bigger & stronger that will come along. I doubt any of us will be here when that happens, or when it is retaken by Jews again only to fall again.

    There way i see it is, anyone who wants to fight over Jerusalem’s deserves what happens to them.

  273. …Muslims live on a land and call it Palestine –Check the Bible, not Wiki mr weak …

    Can we just dispense with the pretenses about you being somebody new now?

    Anyway, no Muslims are mentioned in the Bible, Sand Ape. Sorry. Not even you can can pull that one off. Pretty sure there wasn’t any ethnic group even called “Arab” 2000 years ago. Not in that area, at any rate!

  274. …emulating the Andalusia era and proving they are a strong even handed unit for equality and peace.

    Isn’t it amazing that the indigenous inhabitants of Iberia ordered the occupation forces to either convert, leave or die during the Reconquista? And enforced that with the inquisition? After 700 years of being so well treated by their conquerors! Such ingratitude! It’s breathtaking, isn’t it?

  275. The Porter says:

    Tedders,

    So if you disagree with some Jewish free thinkers and writers like Naom Chomsky it makes their opinions not counted for? the conversation here is like pissing in the wind. I am astonished at the attempts to deny the existence of a Palestinian nation before 1948.

    Peace to all

  276. DownWithDoubleStandards says:

    Nicely said Porter,

    Yes it is like pissing in the wind here isn’t it. But at least you get good at it and it builds stamina LOL. Notice they all share the same adopted recessive behavior. Like Craigs latest discomfort when a valid point is made which he disagrees with (typical lop sided one track minded measures of desperation), misquoting and taking out of contexts, like his misquoting me.

    (All faiths lived in a land called Palestine, the Christian’s did, the Muslim’s did. To prove my point which is fact, it has always been called Palestine, I said even Muslims lived in it when it was called Palestine, which it was called in Biblical times. But his lame attempt at refuting this goes a little something like this, going on to say there were no Muslims in biblical times. Funny..Jews call Abraham a Jew even though there was no Moses yet, and Muslims consider Abraham, Moses & Christ all to be Muslims. Notice even the Israeli’s here admit that there is, was, and always will be a Palestine. Its the idiots who have no stake in the cause that are the shit disturbers.

    But Craig is just a slight sociopath compared to Adam & tedders and some of the other circus acts here.

    OCD at it finest…

  277. Porter,

    “So if you disagree with some Jewish free thinkers and writers like Naom Chomsky”

    I’m sure you meant Noam.

    Free thinkers? There’s nothing “free” about what Chomsky advocates! Anarchists aren’t free thinkers, they’re ideologues. Were Marx or Lenin free thinkers? No, they were murderous ideologue tyrants whose fantasy philosophies have been proved wrong by the destruction of societies and 100′s of millions of peoples lives. Noam Chomsky a free thinker? That’s a good one!!

    http://strangeisnotafruit.blogs.com/my_weblog/2006/04/noam_chomsky_ju.html

    [quote]
    “Chomsky’s role in propaganda paradigm is much like that of Karl Marx: to present a false liberation ideology which actually supports the desired solutions of the elite. Marx pointed out the inequalities and brutality of capitalism and then advocated a one world bank, army, and government with the abolition of private property and religion; in other words, the major goals known of the New World Order. Tens of millions of activists worldwide still remain trapped by this scam, failing to recognize the inherent autocratic and elitist structures of Marxism-Leninism or the newer incarnation under Chomsky.”

    Chomsky has made a wonderful living telling lies about America. In fact, he gets thousands of dollars a speech going around the world and calling his fellow citizens morons and war criminals. What’s his new lie? Well, how about the one where he says that the world was better off with Saddam in place? I guess he should try telling that line of crap to the half million or so people that Saddam and his criminal family murdered, gassed, fed into plastics chippers while alive and/or raped. Here’s another one, “America–the evil country that she is–took over Iraq to control the world’s oil supply. Well, it seems to me that if we wanted Iraq’s oil, then we could have simply went in and taken over the oil fields while leaving Saddam in power. We could have saved lots of lives by doing so, after all. Haven’t we all but left Iraq and left the sovereignty of Iraq in place along with their natural resources? He’s a professor of linguistics, not a world problem solver or solution finder, he’s another great example of what Lenin would call a useful idiot.

    Google “Noam Chomsky idiot” and see how many hits you get. Believe and quote him all you like, see where it gets your arguments.

  278. The Porter says:

    Tedders,

    If I disagree with you and agree with Noam Chomsky, does that make you an idiot?

  279. brooklynjon says:

    Down,

    respect back.

    You make a couple of points that merit comment. First, with regard to Abraham being a Jew even though Moses wasn’t around yet:

    There is a nation commonly called “Jews” – in the Torah they are referred to mostly as “Bnai Yisrael” = the children of Israel = the descendants of Jacob.
    There is also a religion associated with these people, inconveniently called “Judaism” – inconvenient because the nation and the religion, though named the same, are not exactly the same things.

    Jacob/Israel and his progeny (Bnai Yisrael) descend into Egypt, become “rescued” several hundred years later by G-d/Moses, and are given the Torah shortly thereafter, more or less initiating the RELIGION of Judaism. But the nation started before the torah was given. The nation started, according to the torah, with a covenant between G-d and Abraham, and a separation of Abraham from his other relatives. (N.B. I don’t personally believe this, but this is the mainstream belief among knowledgeable religious Jews)

    So, yes, Abraham was the progenitor of the Jewish NATION (religious jews call him “Avraham Avinu = Abraham our father”), while Moses was the initiator of the Jewish RELIGION (religious Jews call him “Moshe Rabeinu = Moses our teacher”). Abraham was a great guy, but it is a little implausible to believe that he actually followed the 613 commandments of the Jewish religion. Isaac gets short shrift, but he seems to have been a little scarred from that episode with the sacrifice.

    Okay, Two: Religious intolerance in Jerusalem:

    “In any case my friend, when Jews occupied it they were just as intolerant as anybody was (king David for example). While on the other hand when the fucking terrorist Muslims occupied it during the Andalusia era, it was fair and square peace on earth.”

    I mean no disrespect, but I’m a little confused on this point. When King David was alive, Christianity and Islam had not yet started, so I don’t see how the Jews of the time could have been tolerant to those faiths. I have to plead ignorance as to the status of religious affairs in Jerusalem during the “Andalusia Era”. I do know what the status of religious freedom was when the area was occupied by Jordan (1948-1967), and suffice to say, it was bleak. As I understand it, Jews were not allowed in the country, let alone permitted to worship at the holy sites. The Jewish gravestones on the Mount of Olives were turned into paving stones for the road leading up to a hotel. Old synagogues were destroyed or used for humiliating purposes, as they were in other parts of the Arab world (e.g. Basra).

    I’m sure the situation now could be improved in Israel, but in general there is tremendous freedom of worship. The Temple Mount, which is the holiest site to Jews, is controlled by Muslims. In fact, in my three trips to Jerusalem, I was prohibited from going there by the Waqf security. Mosques abound. The Christian holy sites are left to Christians, and my visits to those sites were free (and interesting). Various Christian denominations are flourishing, which is quite the contrast to Gaza, which is officially Jew-free, and rather hostile to Christians and moderate Muslims as well.

    Anyway, I’m already getting too long, but it must be said that for most Jews, and for most Israelis, the notion of Israel being a “Jewish” state has more to do with the Jewish nationality rather than the Jewish religion. Jewish history is replete with persecution, hate, bigotry, rampant killing, etc, and many feel it is necessary to have a sovereign homeland for the sake of security. Personally, I wish the people of the area could all coexist in peace, or at least exist apart but in peace. And I’d be more than happy for the Palestinians (with or without scare quotes) to have a PEACEFUL state. But I also want my sovereign national homeland where I can go in case I need to flee persecution. Jerusalem, for me, is like a cherry on top of an ice cream sundae. It’s wonderful to have. But safety and security are really first and foremost.

    peace

    bj

  280. brooklynjon says:

    Down,

    “(All faiths lived in a land called Palestine, the Christian’s did, the Muslim’s did. To prove my point which is fact, it has always been called Palestine, I said even Muslims lived in it when it was called Palestine, which it was called in Biblical times. … Notice even the Israeli’s here admit that there is, was, and always will be a Palestine. Its the idiots who have no stake in the cause that are the s[***] disturbers.”

    I’m beating a dead horse here, but let’s have a go:

    The land that is generally the State of Israel and the West Bank was occupied by the kingdoms of Israel (north of Jerusalem) and Judea (Jerusalem and south). The area of roughly Gaza was occupied by a group of people called the Plishtim (Philistines). We’re talking from around 1000 B.C. here, to the second Century. The Jews were a pain in the a** to the Romans, so they brought Judea under closer and closer control, until it lost it’s sovereignty and became a Roman province (of Judea). A couple of rebellions later, and the Romans got REALLY pissed off, pretty much razed the place, and changed the name of the province as an insult to the Jews. Instead of Judea (land of the Jews) they called it Filistia (land of the Plishtim). Over the millenia, the area was subject to various invasions, and was a part of various empires.

    The points that have been raised here:

    1) There was never a sovereign political entity called “Palestine”. The term “Palestine” reappears, as best I understand it, and feel free to prove me wrong, in the form of the “Palestine Mandate” at the conclusion to WWI, to differentiate that area from Syria (french control) and Egypt.

    2) As such, after WWI (again, prove me wrong) was the first time people were called “Palestinians”. Furthermore, the term “Palestinian” did not refer to a national or ethnic group, but was rather a residential classification. Thus, EVERYONE who lived in the Palestine Mandate was called a “Palestinian”. Personally, I live in Brooklyn. And while I think Brooklyn is a fine place with lovely inhabitants, I do not claim to be a member of a “Brooklyn” Nation or ethnic group, even though I do call myself a “Brooklynite”.

    3) Replying that one knows of people who lived in the area 300 years ago, or continuously for the last 300 years, completely misses the point. People lived in Brooklyn 300 years ago too. It has little to do with the price of tea in China.

    4) Those characteristics that are usually used by Sociologists or Cultural Anthropologists to delineate “nation” or “ethnic group” do not, to the best of my knowledge (again, I’m happy to be proved wrong), work to establish “Palestinians” as a group separate from the larger group of “Arabs”.

    5) I have nothing against Palestinians, “Palestinians”, or Arabs. I do wish everyone could move on and stop blowing each other up.

    6) Nothing here should be taken to mean that I have any opposition to a sovereign, PEACEFUL Palestinian state, coexisting happily alongside a sovereign, PEACEFUL Jewish state.

    bj

  281. bj,

    Where was Israel before 1948? There was none. When the Zionist movement started South Africa was one of the suggested areas for the Jews to live running away from the holocaust and the prosecution of the Jewish people. The religious claims that Jews lived in this area 3,000 years ago doesn’t Justify that there was a Palestinian nation who lived and existed before the Israeli occupation.

    Your attempt to undermine the existence of the Palestinians and put them in quotation as if it is a questionable term is totally ignorant and fueled with hate and sickening propaganda. Easy to wish a peaceful Palestinian state when all what you care about is an escape hideout for yourself and your family in case of prosecution. Guess what? the Palestinians all over the world that were pushed out of their place of birth wish to return to their homeland. Wishing a peaceful Palestinian state under the aggression of Israelis and the illegal settlements built on Palestinian land is totally unjust and won’t establish any peace.

    Palestinian people long lived this area and they have their history, culture, they are lawyers, doctors, artist, their food and many traditions. There are graves in Jerusalem that still holds the remains of Palestinian families Christians and Muslims that Israel occupied and prevented the rest of family members to be buried beside their parents and grandparents and the explanation is

    “filthy arabs doesn’t get buried in the holy city of Jerusalem”

    The comparison to Brooklyn is totally useless and and have nothing to do with occupation and stolen lands.

    A wishful thinking for peace is not enough but those who support Israel should demand that Israel does it’s role in peace and not just expect Palestinians to accept the kind of peace Israel wants. Israel is not innocent and all what it is doing is self defense, Israel comitts illegal acts and kills children and women under the slogan of “self defense”

    I have posted two links before to show real pictures that are historically accurate. I Know that for sure as both historian photographers who took those photos are family members and they are real and a hard copy still exists. Those photos tells me that before 1948 there was more than just some tents and some bedouins with no identity.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGBoGKPZlQE&feature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjEBQ_bE7uA&feature=related

    Should you ignore this it is your problem but please don’t throw your ignorance at us to say there were no Palestinians and sugar coat it with peaceful hopes.

  282. DWDS,

    “If the Jews were smart, they would have proved the whole world wrong by emulating the Andalusia era and proving they are a strong even handed unit for equality and peace. But nooo, they want a pro Jewish ethnic state with Jerusalem as its capitol, go figure.”

    I would like to rephrase, if the Israelis were smart they would have created a friend rather than an enemy of the Palestinians, they could have had some empathy early on to adopt and compensate Palestinians rather than take their homes and let them walk to Jordan. They would have had empathy to Palestinians after their own sufferings in Europe.

    I say Israelis as I believe that the state of Israel has nothing to do with the religion, I have respect for all religions the three that I know well and all the others I don’t know and I don’t like to link any war, violence, or actions of politicians to any religion.

  283. Porter,

    No, it makes you a useful idiot though.

  284. I didn’t misquote you, Sand Ape. I quoted the part where you were telling Adam he should read the Bible to find proof that Muslims lived there in ancient times. Muslims are not mentioned in the Bible at all, for the simple and obvious reason that Islam didn’t even exist at the time.

    If you didn’t mean it that way, you shouldn’t have said it that way. But to be honest, I don’t see any other way to interpret that sentence. Don’t blame your chaotic thinking and mis-statements of fact on me, guy. You are the one who said something that was untrue… all I did was point it out.

    All faiths lived in a land called Palestine, the Christian’s did, the Muslim’s did. To prove my point which is fact, it has always been called Palestine, I said even Muslims lived in it when it was called Palestine, which it was called in Biblical times.

    Another mis-statement of fact. The Romans renamed the entire Roman province of “Iudaea Province” to “Syria Palaestina” after the Bar Kokhba rebellion. That was almost 200 years after the death of Christ. Since Christianity was centered in Asia Minor and not in the Holy Land by that time, I think it would be very odd to try to claim that early Christians had much to say about it either way. So why reference the Bible? There’s no winning argument for you there.

  285. “The relevant question is whether the Palestinian Nation (note caps) existed as a distinct national or ethnic group prior to, say, 1948. And the answer, fairly, has to be a definitive “maybe”. There are a number of factors which Sociologists use to define ethnic groups: religion, language, cuisine, culture, traditions, history, etc. The Palestinian people share many traits with the greater Arab nation, although there are certainly regional differences. At what point “regional differences” transmogrify into separate nationalities is hard to define, and reasonable people can disagree.”

    Wait a second, so Turkey, Greece, Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan, etc…. are all one since they all share the love of stuffed Grape leaves and Mousaka and some other potato dishes.

    let’s question their regions and make them a ratatouille land, those sociologists are really funny!

    Bring on Laban omo and maqlouba Palestinians and throw it at those sociologists lol

  286. brooklynjon says:

    There were always Jews in the area. Those who arrived during the last days of the Ottoman era, and in the period between the World Wars bought their land, and came to establish communes. They were extreme left wing farmers. They had a Utopian vision of living side-by-side with the other people there. Initially, they were welcomed, in the main. Subsequently, long before the establishment of Israel, and even before World War II, they were treated with violence.

    The question of whether or not there existed a national group called “Palestinian” as distinct from “Arab” has absolutely nothing to do with whether doctors, lawyers and accountants lived there. It does have something to do with food, traditions, and so on. I’m sure there are variations between what people in Jericho and people in Aleppo do and eat and how they speak. I am not sure if those differences are great enough to constitute separate nations. The last I checked, Syrians, Iraqis, and Bahrainis all considered themselves Arabs. The notion of “Palestinian” nationhood as distinct from “Arab” nationhood is, I believe, a recent innovation. I invite you to prove me wrong.

    I don’t hate anyone. But the best I can tell, the earliest reference to a group of people as “Palestinian” was around World War I, and this was a geographical referent, as it included Jews and Druze, as well as anyone else that happened to live within the boundaries of the Palestine Mandate. In fact, the Jews who lived within the mandate (yes, the horrible invaders and usurpers) continued to be called “Palestinian” until the establishment of Israel (“Zionist Entity”, “Little Satan”, etc.)

    Finally, if you respect Judaism, and I know you do, I hope you can respect the longing of the Jews to return to Israel, as part of our religion, as reflected in Psalm 137, written in exile

    4 How shall we sing the LORD’s song in a strange land?
    5 If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning.
    6 If I do not remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my
    mouth; if I prefer not Jerusalem above my chief joy.

    South Africa would be nice, but we’d rather be where our home is, and where we were exiled from. I’m sure you can understand that.

  287. The Porter says:

    Tedders,

    WTF? what was that for man? you didn’t get my point.

  288. brooklynjon says:

    “Wait a second, so Turkey, Greece, Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan, etc…. are all one since they all share the love of stuffed Grape leaves and Mousaka and some other potato dishes.”

    No way. Greek felafel is disgusting.

  289. bj,

    Those lawyers and doctors and families were PALESTINIANS. Jewish farmers who lived and owned land were small percentage before 1948 and prove me wrong that the population of Jewish farmers were more than Arabs.

    The term Arabs is used based on the fact that they share the same language but they are Iraqis, Palestinians, Syrians, Egyptians, Lebanese. Being Arab doesn’t make me less Palestinian, Syrian, Lebanese etc…..

    Please leave God out of wars, Politics, and arm forces. God doesn’t approve any killings or taking peoples land or blowing up others.

    God will love his people no matter where they live. God is just and kind.

  290. bj,

    What you think if there was a Palestinian nation before 1948 doesn’t really matter as you or your sources will not erase the Palestinian identity, Golda Meir once said there are no Palestinians and I know she wished that she wipes them out of the earth like the clown of Iran AJ wants to do with Jewish people.

    The reality is that the Palestinian people live to tell their stories and preserves their culture, history, and identity and fight for their homeland as well.

    I was just responding to other people who read this blog and might get persuaded and manipulated by untrue ideas sugar coated with peaceful solutions.

  291. And for those who try to silence any Palestinian, Egyptian, or Jordanian on this blog that for us to defend the innocent Palestinian people who are refugees all over the world, their right for their land and existence and you hint that we support terrorism simply because we support Justice for the Palestinians over injustice and freedom over occupation and Justice based on peaceful solutions.

    I say to those. Get lost!

  292. The Porter says:

    I had to google Twosret to figure out your gender and I am assuming you are female. Remind me not get you pissed woman.

  293. I am actually not that bad *sticking my tongue out* @porter. Done for today.

  294. The Porter says:

    Can we discuss the current situation and what suggestions does people on this blog on both sides might have to solve this complicated ancient conflict?

  295. Can we discuss the current situation and what suggestions does people on this blog on both sides might have to solve this complicated ancient conflict?

    That’s so 2004…

  296. Wow, what a breathe of fresh air ready your comment bj, compared to the white-supremcist-Bible-Belt-beating atheist coalition here. I mean at least until I read twosret’s comments until the fresh air really hit my lungs. I agree with a lot of what you said bj, but not near to 50% even. I have to agree with twosret 100%.

    I have also decided that it is a waste of time responding to the others here who lack the over all respect to amicably disagree. But why would you say you are beating a dead horse? In any case FYI, King David killed many infant males fearing the prophocised coming of Christ. Therefore although there were no Muslims or Christians yet, that constitutes intolerance in some way shape or form doesn’t it now?

    ” last I checked, Syrians, Iraqis, and Bahrainis all considered themselves Arabs. The notion of “Palestinian” nationhood as distinct from “Arab” nationhood is, I believe, a recent innovation. I invite you to prove me wrong.”

    No they are not, there is a distinction, although you are partially right bj, but the only reason the pal’s don’t have a nation is because the other folks without a nation, the Israeli’s, are too busy stealing the rights of Palestinians, do you not get it? You said much could be improved with the situation in Israel. Therefore what are you busy trying to justify. That Jews have rights and there are differences between, cuisine, language, genes…so what. The Palestinians have rights too don’t they?

  297. Shame on extreme Zionism, isn’t that pissing on the Torah?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQat4EiRFfI&feature=sub

  298. I have also decided that it is a waste of time responding to the others here who lack the over all respect to amicably disagree.

    Strange… that’s the same decision I came to quite some time ago on this blog! That’s the reason I’ve limited myself to correcting a few of your obvious factual errors, and left your nutty opinions right where they belong – with you.

  299. DWDS @ 271:

    My, my… Welcome back, mr. bad language! :D

    “Mr. lop sided obsessive compulsive reasoning”

    Is it lopsided to point out that Judea was a state with it’s own government and citizens that most likely identified themselves with that state, while palestine was a name given to a territory by foreign powers, and probably not taken to heart by the (diverse) people living in the area? Hardly…

    “Palestine where >…< called so BY OTHER PEOPLE as WELL as THEMSELVES”

    Please show me historical records that support this. Please make a reasonable argument, that could suggest this.

    “–Check the Bible”

    The bible mentions the land of the Philistines, ancestors of greeks and enemies of the israelites. Are you arguing that the area actually belongs to Greece?

    “Take a fucking Prozac man.”

    Advice that you’d be wise to heed yourself… But then again, you’re not wise. :D

    “If the Jews were still getting fucked up the ass, say by Muslims, I would be on the side of Jews.”

    They are, and you’re not.

    “No one ever said this cock sucker “Palestine be the “sole property” of the Arab/Muslim population?””

    What’s your problem then?

    “quoting Jerusalem post and Judopedia”

    I have? Where?

    “You lost any sembelance of respect with your mentally perverted rhetoric.”

    Beautiful! :D Can you really not see how infantile that sentence is, bearing your usual vocabulary in mind?

  300. bj @ 270:

    “if you could resurrect their ancestors who lived in, say, 1800 or so, and ask them what was their “ethnicity” or “nation”, what they would say. I don’t claim to know the answer, but I’d be pretty darned surprised if they said “Palestinian”. ”

    Exactly!

    “While the desires for an independent Palestinian state are entirely understandable, the claim of it’s righteousness on the basis of an ancient stateless nation seem to strain credulity a bit.”

    Again, exactly!

    :)

  301. DWDS @ 274:

    “adams riiiiiiiiight wing views”

    How are they right wing? Do you even know what “right wing” means?

    “What I do agree with though is that Jews have the absolute eternal right to worship in Jerusalem just like Christians and Muslims do.”

    Agree totally! Do you see any faith NOT allowed to worship in Jerusalem? We saw that when the city was under jordanian (muslim) control (and earlier during the Ottoman empire), but as far as I can recollect, muslims have never been denied access to their holy sites by the jews…

    “Muslims occupied it during the Andalusia era, it was fair and square peace on earth”

    Actually no. Jews were still under restrictions, as were all non-muslims. The christians were probably even worse when they were in control, but that hardly matters in regards to your ideal version…

    “Empires fall all the time”

    Again – so what’s your problem?

    “don’t expect the elements opposing kids being run over by tanks in Gaza and being burned with white phosphorus to just suddenly give up.”

    Why would we do that? Is there anything better than watching your kids dying because you won’t share? Why would we expect muslims to stop screwing up generation after generation of kids because they can’t accept the presence of jews in their midst?

    Hey… Why NOT?!?

    “There way i see it is, anyone who wants to fight over Jerusalem’s deserves what happens to them.”

    So, what are you whining and raging about? If you don’t give a shit about either party, why get so upset?

  302. porter @ 277:

    ” I am astonished at the attempts to deny the existence of a Palestinian nation before 1948.”

    I’m astonished at the lack of evidence provided by you…

  303. DWDS @ 278:

    “Funny..Jews call Abraham a Jew even though there was no Moses yet”

    Moses was a jew; he didn’t create judaism – it existed already… That’s why we call judaism, christianity and islam Abrahamic religions; because they originate with Abraham, and judaism was the first to be “invented”.

    “Notice even the Israeli’s here admit that there is, was, and always will be a Palestine”

    Really? Where…?

    By the way, the only one actually showing any signs of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder around here is you, and your repetitive desire to argue points that you can’t justify or substantiate…

  304. Twos @ 283:

    “that there was a Palestinian nation who lived and existed before the Israeli occupation.”

    There wasn’t. Can we give it a rest now…?

    “Palestinian people long lived this area…”

    No. Jews, christians and muslims have long live din this area. “Palestinians” have lived in the area since 1948. Can we give it a rest now…?

    “Israel is not innocent”

    Nobody has claimed such a thing, but again, again, again… Their adversaries’ crimes outweigh theirs by a factor of 10 or more. There’s a huge difference between occupying land illegally, and demanding (and attempting!) the extermination of an entire nation and it’s people!

  305. Twos @ 283:

    Forgot this one…

    “Those photos tells me that before 1948 there was more than just some tents and some bedouins with no identity.”

    They show you that people lived in the area. They DO NOT show you that anyone called themselves palestinians in that area. Can we give it a rest now…?

  306. Twos @ 284:

    “if the Israelis were smart they would have created a friend rather than an enemy of the Palestinians”

    Hard to make a friend out of these fellows:

    http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_grand_mufti.php

    Please elaborate on just how you imagine this animosity could have been avoided? That would be a worthwhile discussion after all…!

  307. Twos @ 291:

    “Those lawyers and doctors and families were PALESTINIANS”

    No, they were arabs, jews or christians living in what is today recognized as Palestine and Israel. They were actually citizens of the Ottoman empire, and later citizens under the British Mandate of Palestine. Can we give it a rest now…?

    “Please leave God out of wars, Politics, and arm forces. God doesn’t approve any killings or taking peoples land or blowing up others.”

    Unfortunately, it seems he does; the great majority of killings in the history of man has been preceded with the words “God” in one form or another, and who are you to say that all these millions of people were wrong? And after all, God is omnipotent – what God wants God gets…

  308. DWDS @ 299:

    “I have to agree with twosret 100%.”

    Of course you do – you wear the same brand of blinkers…

    “who lack the over all respect to amicably disagree”

    We can disagree on opinion, but letting it go there would not really be beneficial, would it? Would the world function if everyone just sat in their corners and refused to speak to each other or work out their differences?

    We cannot disagree on fact, however, and as long as you keep supporting your arguments with make-believe history, you’ll find somebody there pointing out your errors.

    ” but the only reason the pal’s don’t have a nation is because the other folks without a nation, the Israeli’s, are too busy stealing the rights of Palestinians, do you not get it?”

    I thought you said they already had a nation? Can you make up your mind? Actually, they DO have a nation – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Palestine – they’re just not doing very well with it, seeing as how they keep on attacking their (much stronger) neighbours…

    “The Palestinians have rights too don’t they?”

    Yes, they do… So do violent criminals, but we still don’t let them walk the streets as long as they’re a danger to everyone else. Maybe if the palestinians put down their guns and bombs and rockets, everyone might start to focus more on their rights than on how to avoid getting killed…?

  309. “There wasn’t. Can we give it a rest now…?”

    Adam, you are really thick. Seriously, you keep repeating yourself like a broken record. People don’t believe in the same ideas you do and some people have major disagreement with your history and analogy, so you have decided to win the argument and make it official?

    For Goodness sake nobody even addressed you in the last 10 posts. Are you that insecure to respond to every sentence and desperate to defend every word everyone write that you disagree with?

    YOU give it a rest already and stop your childish posts that has no substance in it but your agenda.

    Your history sources are different than mine and your sources for me is a propaganda as my sources are to you, none of us is willing to cross to the other.

    So nobody is a winner kiddo.

  310. The porter,

    There were attempts before of constructive talk with some people here and once they have decided to blow up in our face verbally, I have lost trust in them to discuss anything.

  311. Twos @ 312:

    “Adam, you are really thick.”

    That’s your opinion, and you’re entitled to it. That doesn’t change the fact that there never has been a soveriegn palestinian state prior to 1948, and in this respect, YOU’RE the one sounding like a broken record.

    By all means, prove me wrong and provide us with decisive proof of this supposed pre-1948 state of Palestine. Sorry, but a few family snapshots do not make a nation… If you cannot, let’s just give it a rest shall we…?

    “For Goodness sake nobody even addressed you in the last 10 posts. Are you that insecure to respond to every sentence and desperate to defend every word everyone write that you disagree with?”

    I’m interested in the subject and awestruck by how simple logic bounces off some people. It doesn’t surprise me that you can’t fathom this; nor does it surprise me that you would take offense at listening to someone with whom you don’t agree – your view on the world is clearly ruled by this sad attitude, as has been demonstrated over and over on this blog…

    “…that has no substance in it”

    No substance? I provide proof of my claims, unlike yourself and your friends… Careful with that glass house of yours…!

    “Your history sources are different than mine…”

    You HAVE no sources… That’s the problem! AS mentioned earlier, provide us with proof of this state of yours and I’ll take my view on this subject up to reconsideration.

    “So nobody is a winner kiddo.”

    In this at least, I fear, you are correct…

    Twos @ 313:

    “and once they have decided to blow up in our face verbally”

    The only ones blowing up in anyones face are you and your friends. Notice how it’s you telling us to shut up and bud out? Notice how it’s DWDS/Sandy telling us we’re racist fucks? I wonder where I’ve seen that before? Oh, I know…

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamist_demonstration_outside_Danish_Embassy_in_London_in_2006

  312. Beautifully said Twosret @ 312 & 313, I couldn’t have said it better myself. Especially #312. Where have you been gf? Nice to meet you BTW.
    Don’t worry, I won’t blow up in anybodies face again as I have said I will just ignore the ignorance. But please allow me one more response to Adam which should thoroughly liquefy his arguments. Not that he will ever stop, but at least you will get a kick out of it…But I think you already put an official end to there foaming at the mouth with your awesomely simplistic and effective post#312, again Awesome :D

  313. I know I said I wouldn’t but i just couldnt resist…the bleeding liar say’s:

    ““quoting Jerusalem post and Judopedia

    I have? Where?”

    Here you go you incredible atheist liar:

    comment 267 you quote wikifuckingpedia, better known as judapedia. Even you should admit that you have posted many links directly to the Jerusalem post. So keep you your lopsided reasoning and accusations which are SELF DESCRIPTIONS OF YOURSELF TO YOURSELF. Whose OCD now huh?

    Oh ya…as far as you can remember Muslims have never been denied access to their holy shit LMAO, there happens to be an illegal occupying destructive force their right now called Israel that doesn’t allow Muslim youths and any males under 55 yrs of age to enter the al aqsa mosque, the holiest Muslim sight in Jerusalem. Should I go on?

    I think I will..”"”"Is there anything better than watching your kids dying because you won’t share?”"”

    So you call forceful eviction from your land and ethnic persecution sharing? You are sicker than I thought, but not really, just the same!

    But this one has thoroughly closed your case, since you are on the side of tedders, bj, craig etc for the time being, you have also thoroughly shut their cases as well. Thank you indeed:

    “There’s a huge difference between occupying land illegally, and demanding (and attempting!) the extermination of an entire nation and it’s people!”

    Aahh but finally, you have admitted that Israel has occupied land illegally, something you have been obsessively denying for months, but at last, the truth finally shines through. Thank you again!!!

    Ah..now we can sleep still the second coming

  314. DWDS @ 315:

    “I couldn’t have said it better myself”

    Sadly, that’s probably true!!! :D Sorry, but that was just too tempting…

    “Here you go you incredible atheist liar:”

    Thanks for the name-calling – always good to see that you’re still keeping up the (bad) appearences; more credibility to the rest of us… :)

    Hmm, you are referring to a wiki-quote of mine – I hardly see how that has anything to do with the Jerusalem Post or this Judopedia you’re talking about… Having looked through the entire topic, I still can’t seem to find this Jerusalem Post link you’re talking about. I must assume you’re not lying, so please tell me which comment you’re talking about…

    Looking through the topic I did, however, notice that most of your quotes are taken from YouTube – makes sense that your main source of information is a smattering of uploaded vids from random peeps. Reminds of a scene in Top Secret… http://new.wavlist.com/movies/021/ts-klaus.wav

    Substitute Klaus with DWDS! :D

    “there happens to be an illegal occupying destructive force their right now called Israel that doesn’t allow Muslim youths and any males under 55 yrs of age to enter the al aqsa mosque, the holiest Muslim sight in Jerusalem.”

    Aside of course from the instance earlier this year, when threats of demonstrations had been issued and actual violence against non-muslim visitors occurred, muslims have zero restrictions on visiting their religious sites. The ban was kept in place for a week to let things cool down, and was then lifted.

    “So you call forceful eviction from your land and ethnic persecution sharing? ”

    I call a demand for the total destruction of the state of Israel NOT sharing… Again, Israel is not without it’s faults, but there are bigger issues than the illegal settlements, that have to be addressed first.

    “Aahh but finally, you have admitted that Israel has occupied land illegally”

    Uh no, I’ve pointed this out from the beginning… Several times too, in fact. Check out 32, 33, 67, 149, 159, 202, 222, 230, 238, 267, 269 and 303. Your observational skills once again leave me flabbergasted, and not in the good way…!

  315. brooklynjon says:

    Down,

    Yes, middle aged men cannot go to the Temple Mount/Noble Sanctuary. I’m not sure if this is permanent, or imposed from time to time (My recollection is the latter, but I may be wrong). But this is not because of religious discrimination. If the idea was to keep Muslims from worshiping there, everyone would be banned. To understand the ban, you have to understand the topography of the site, and the history. I don’t know if you are familiar. For all I know, you live there.

    Suffice to say, there have been numerous occasions in which men of a certain age, after getting riled up by inflammatory sermons, rain stones down on the Jews worshiping at the Western Wall directly below. In other words, the Muslims try to prevent the Jews from worship at their holy site. (Well, actually, the dome of the rock is actually located on our holiest site, but that’s another matter). So, the choice is allow Muslim women, children, and elderly only, and still allow Jews to pray below, or allow ALL Muslims, but effectively ban ALL Jews. What would fairness dictate? And again, how does this compare to Jewish access to holy sites when controlled by Jordan? Or by the PA?

    Again, I will grant you, Israel is imperfect when compared to, say the United States or the Netherlands. No argument here. But, all things considered, it’s not half bad.

    bj

  316. brooklynjon says:

    “wikifuckingpedia, better known as judapedia”

    I think I’m missing something here.

  317. 1- I have never claimed there was a state of Palestine because my history book tells me that the Ottoman’s were ruling for hundreds of years

    2- I have no friends here but tedders, Carpet Captain, bj, and Egypeter and they all disagree with me

    3- I claimed there was a nation of Palestinians before 1948 invasion not a state

    4- We come to a dead end when we disagree about history and analogy

    5- No one has the right to silence the other even if they disagree with them and claim that they are the winner of any argument

    If the above simple points doesn’t make sense to you nothing will Adam

  318. Ever since this blog started nobody is willing to cross to the other side and see things through their eyes with true sincere wish. The majority of comments are to support Israel and paint Palestinians to be terrorists and muslims to be savage.

    When we post links you call it propaganda, when we refer to our historians and family history you call it bogus.

    That is not respectful debate, or tolerance, or understanding to other people experiences and background.

    so you reap what you sow, we think the same about your books, links, propaganda, and empty talk.

    nothing accomplished

  319. correction

    to see things through the others eyes with true sincere wish

  320. brooklynjon says:

    So, does that mean that when you say the “1948 invasion”, you’re talking about the invasion of the nascent state of Israel by armies from Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq and Syria?

  321. bj,

    Who are you talking to?

  322. I say the occupation that happened 1948 by Israeli army or armed forces to Palestinian homes and land. I am referring specifically to the Palestinians who lived in the area before Israel in 1948 who had their houses, schools, businesses etc…..

    The Palestinians who suffered and became refugees all over the world and moved on with their lives but still hope to have their lands back and keep their olive trees that are uprooted by bulldozers to build illegal settlements.

    The rights of the Palestinians of return and to their land. Many factors have complicated their rights and hijacked their cause whether by politicians or extreme nuts but the fact remains that the Palestinians who asks for their land is their right as well.

    I never called for the destruction of Israel I only hoped for the two nations to coexist peacefully and that they both have one common interest and respect to each other. A country well represented by both sides is the ideal situation as all other attempts fail.

    If anyone blame Palestinians only then I disregard that as an unfair and unbalanced view. Christians have the right to go and worship in peace for their holy sites did any of the Jewish people or the Muslims considered our rights or fighting each other have made you forget that Jesus was born in the same land and we have some rights too religiously.

  323. brooklynjon says:

    I’m saying, you lament that we don’t see things through one another’s eyes. So I ask, when you say the “1948 invasion”, are you talking about the Arab armies from the surrounding countries which invaded Israel following the declaration of independence?

  324. brooklynjon says:

    And again, if you consider the perception on the part of Israeli Jews (and likely the reality) of widespread anti-semitism among the Palestinians, and in the wider Arab world, it is hard to imagine that they will voluntarily relinquish their sovereignty in favor of a country ruled by Palestinians, with assurances that they will be treated fairly. Maybe there is a massive majority of Palestinians that wish no ill on Israelis, but all the surveys I have seen, and the history of anti-Jewish violence THAT PREDATES THE FOUNDING OF ISRAEL, all argue otherwise. A single state solution would unquestionably an antecedent to intractable civil war.

    Any other ideas?

  325. bj,

    For almost 4 years on this blog I have been saying I am anti-war, any war, and every war, and you are still asking this question?

  326. bj # 327,

    The Palestinians that I know have no problem with the religion of Israelis their case is all about land not what they practice. The anti-semitism and hate is spread believe it or not by other arab nations and the wahabi’s have made it a point to spread the hate more than the Palestinians did.

    The average Palestinian and Israeli want to live like any other person and doesn’t want war or destruction.

    I can be wrong but I tend to believe so

  327. Twos @ 320:

    Right, a few points…

    You have repeatedly argued against me when I have pointed out that there has never been a state of Palestine. I have therefore not been aware that you made the distinction between a nation and a state. Due to english being my second language, I was not actually aware of the precise difference until looking it up now – on this, therefore, I stand corrected, and I’ll look at your arguments in a new light.

    When I use the term friends, I mean to refer to the group of people with which you agree. Just like DWDS calls bj, tedders and craig my friends, even though I have no idea who they are outside the limits of this blog. If you take offense at the term, you have my apologies – I was trying to make a short and simple point.

    Now, back on topic…

    “We come to a dead end when we disagree about history and analogy”

    We come to a dead end because you fail to supply a plausible argument for your point of view. In this particular case, I misunderstood you, and equaled a state to a nation (of people). Even so, I see little evidence that the people of the region saw themselves as a nation of palestinians before the term was ever officially used as anything more than a definition of a variable set of square km and the people who happened to be residing there – are you sure that jews and christians living in the area before 1948 saw themselves as palestinians as well…? I see ample evidence that this was NOT the case. Again, are palestinians arabs only, and if so, why?

    “No one has the right to silence the other even if they disagree with them and claim that they are the winner of any argument”

    True, although oddly enough, that’s just what you were attempting @ 312. For myself, I have only asked that you and others back your claims with historical fact – if I have claimed to win an argument, it’s because of a lack of argumentative response from those who believe differently.

    “When we post links you call it propaganda”

    The problem is that usually they are… The moment palestinians/arabs/muslims stop trying to kill jews (and everyone else!) and start asking for a peaceful and just solution to these problems, you’ll see a very different attitude from the rest of the world, and even from Israel I’ll wager…

  328. To further support my reasoning regarding the distinction between “nation” and “state”…

    na·tion (nshn)
    n.
    1.
    a. A relatively large group of people organized under a single, usually independent government; a country.
    b. The territory occupied by such a group of people: All across the nation, people are voting their representatives out.
    2. The government of a sovereign state.
    3. A people who share common customs, origins, history, and frequently language; a nationality: “Historically the Ukrainians are an ancient nation which has persisted and survived through terrible calamity” (Robert Conquest).
    4.
    a. A federation or tribe, especially one composed of Native Americans.
    b. The territory occupied by such a federation or tribe.

    I find it reasonable that I assumed you were using the term as it’s most commonly used…

  329. Adam, just a piece of friendly advice (even though I know we aren’t friends lol) – don’t let Sand Ape’s insanity and abusive behavior turn you into an extremist. I know you didn’t used to be this one sided on this issue, because I’ve argued with you about it before myself. Twosret caused me to gig in my heels so much I still haven’t even come close to getting back to being as objective (relatively speaking of course) on this issue as I was before I started reading blogs.

  330. brooklynjon says:

    Adam B.,

    “are you sure that jews and christians living in the area before 1948 saw themselves as palestinians as well…? I see ample evidence that this was NOT the case. Again, are palestinians arabs only, and if so, why?”

    I am quite certain that the Jews living in the area west of the Jordan River between the World Wars called themselves Palestinians, and they were also called that by the British. I have no idea whether the Christians or Muslims in the area called the Jews Palestinians.

    My understanding is that this was used not to indicate ethnicity (which, at least in the case of Jews arriving from overseas, would have been nonsensical – Hey! there’s something we can all agree on!), but rather to indicate geographical residence. Everyone in New York is a New Yorker, regarless of their ethnic and religious identity.

    I am also quite certain that, prior to the establishment of the State of Israel, everyone called the area Palestine, Jews included. I have an ancient kitchen item that really only has a use in a kitchen that has been rendered kosher for passover that was brought back from Palestine in the 1930′s, and prominently marked “Palestine” on the bottom. It was presumably produced by Jews, and meant to be sold to Jews. It was non-controversial that the area was called Palestine.

    The question in my mind (and for which I have drawn quite a bit of heat), is what the indigenous people called themselves before that, back in the early 1800′s. Again, I am not denying that there were people there in permanent settlements and cities. But back then, what did these people consider themselves?

  331. bj,

    I am not a typical Egyptian or Arab on this blog to speak on their behalf, I have managed to keep a level head and understand the shortcomings of both sides on many occasions.

    I crossed many barriers both Egyptian and Israeli Politicians and religious authorities wanted me to believe. I don’t hate Israelis and I actually sympathize with the settlers who was brought by Israel after 1948 from all over the world and were mislead by the Israeli Gov. to have homes and land and end up in a situation where they get evacuated and told ooops! we made a mistake and you can’t live here anymore. The settlement turned out to be illegal.

    In return those settlers end up hateful and angry at Arabs vs. the Israeli Gov. for giving them land that is not theirs, and for Justice to be done this will continue to happen as long as the Israeli Gov. is occupying more land and provoking both sides.

    As someone before that the situation is so complicated that it is not just who was there before who and who ate falafel or Matzo ball soup, it became so complex that it is hopeless and not working for both sides of the conflict.

    Unless both parties BOTH are willing to compromise and work on a real peaceful solutions there is no hope.

  332. Adam b.,

    English is my second language too and I take no offense of you misunderstanding me based on language barrier all possible and I am sure I have done the same.

    The term i was trying to use was a nation as in a big number of people who lived and had lives like the one you and I had and they called themselves Palestinians.

    I don’t know how to describe it better in English but that is what I meant.

    I will answer more but I have two babies to pick from school sorry

  333. Twosret,

    The majority of comments are to support Israel and paint Palestinians to be terrorists and muslims to be savage.

    As far as I know Sandmonkey never expressed any wish to turn this blog into one that debated Israeli/Palestinian issues. It seems to me that was more your agenda, from the start. I don’t recall many people here even debating the issue at all except when you brought it up… usually with some hateful and off topic editorializing about Israel. So speaking of hate, I’ll leave you with a famous quote:

    “Hate begets hate; violence begets violence; toughness begets a greater toughness. We must meet the forces of hate with the power of love…Our aim must never be to defeat or humiliate the white man, but to win his friendship and understanding.” — Martin Luther King, 1958

  334. I agree with DWDS & Twosret, at least they don’t try and invent facts.

    This statement is false, “The ban was kept in place for a week to let things cool down, and was then lifted.” The ban is still there, even ask bj who I take is an Israeli. It is sad that you leave no choice for anyone but to agree with the rude guy due to your making up history Mr. Adam B. You are losing this debate big time.

  335. brooklynjon says:

    Two,

    The average Palestinian in Gaza voted for Hamas, which clearly wants to use violence as a means of imposing Sharia over all of Gaza, the West Bank, and Israel. It’s in their charter. From time to time, an official gets trotted out to give an interview where he reaffirms it.

    ” The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine has been an Islamic Waqf throughout the generations and until the Day of Resurrection, no one can renounce it or part of it, or abandon it or part of it. ”

    This is from a poll of Palestinians conducted in March of 2009:

    54% of the Palestinians support and 42% oppose armed attacks against Israeli civilians inside Israel. Three months ago, support for such attacks stood at 48% and opposition at 49%.

    http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/polls/2009/p31e.html

    This is from a poll of Palestinians conducted in May of 2009:

    51% support and 46% oppose launching rockets from the Gaza Strip against Israeli communities across the border inside Israel

    http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/polls/2009/p32e.html

    I acknowledge your peaceful intent. But there are clearly large swaths of Palestinian society that do not share your views.

    bj

  336. brooklynjon says:

    “The term i was trying to use was a nation as in a big number of people who lived and had lives like the one you and I had and they called themselves Palestinians.

    I don’t know how to describe it better in English but that is what I meant.”

    WHAT?!?!?!

    “Nation” has a specific meaning! You mean all this heat is about a difference of definition? Grrrrr! No wonder you kept hauling out the family photo album!

    “Unless both parties BOTH are willing to compromise and work on a real peaceful solutions there is no hope.”

    Here, here! Agreed! May I gently suggest that it would be helpful if Palestinian society in particular and Arab society in general became a bit more open, and allowed itself to consider the possibility that maybe, maybe the Israelis are not the only ones at fault, and that maybe, maybe Jews are not actually the devils that they are often portrayed as.

    bj

  337. brooklynjon says:

    Mac,

    “even ask bj who I take is an Israeli”

    Dude, although Brooklyn might look like Israel at times, I’m pretty sure we’re part of the USofA, although Texans like Tedders may rightly wish we just floated out to sea and annoyed France instead.

  338. “bj who I take is an Israeli”

    bj is not an Israeli, he’s a Brooklynite if he doesn’t mind me saying so.

    “Mr. Adam B. You are losing this debate big time.”

    This statement is false, at least if you are following the rules of debate, which Adam most certainly has, Sand Ape has broken every rule of debate and therefore loses by default and quality of argument.

    http://www.triviumpursuit.com/speech_debate/what_is_debate.htm

    Adam is obviously much more educated, intelligent and more even tempered than Sandy. If there were a scoreboard here for readers to vote (and I wish there was) Mr. Adam B. would be the overwhelming winner of the debate.

    Porter, I may have misunderstood your comments, I was merely quoting Vladimir Lenin’s opinion of western liberals. If I did I apologize.

    Twos!

    “2- I have no friends here but tedders, Carpet Captain, bj, and Egypeter and they all disagree with me.”

    (trying to keep a straight face!) Yes we do disagree, but don’t think for a second that we don’t love love love you dear! At least in my case and heart! That just cracked me up when I read that and endeared me to you even more. I know in my heart that your wrong (as you know I’m wrong! ; D) but you won’t compromise your beliefs and I admire that, you my friend have integrity and class!

  339. “although Texans like Tedders may rightly wish we just floated out to sea and annoyed France instead.”

    Hey! I love the peoples republic of New York!! LOL Brooklyn can remain attached as far as I’m concerned. But annoying France, well that’s just plain fun for all!!

  340. The Porter says:

    “(trying to keep a straight face!) Yes we do disagree, but don’t think for a second that we don’t love love love you dear! At least in my case and heart! That just cracked me up when I read that and endeared me to you even more. I know in my heart that your wrong (as you know I’m wrong! ; D) but you won’t compromise your beliefs and I admire that, you my friend have integrity and class!”

    Hands down tedders, she is a doll.

  341. brooklynjon says:

    By rights, the PRNY should serve as a warning to the rest of the country about where Liberalism will take you. Then again, it would probably be the Texas of France, so go figure.

  342. Hey now! The People’s Republic of Kalifornia stands with Texas! Don’t let the whole “blue state” thing fool you! We’re still wild west mentality over here after all!

  343. brooklynjon says:

    “Hands down tedders, she is a doll.”

    *Suppressing a chuckle.*

    Hey, anyone for sushi and gluten free beer?

  344. “Don’t let the whole “blue state” thing fool you! We’re still wild west mentality over here after all!”

    Prove it in the next election!! ; D

  345. Adam,

    “are palestinians arabs only, and if so, why?”

    no, I think all people who lived in that region were called Palestinians, I am not a historian and willing to examine both sides of the story but what I know and seems to make sense to me is that they were called Palestinians.

    Walid Khalidi a Palestinian historian wrote a book about the time before 1948

    http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Before-Their-Diaspora/Walid-Khalidi/e/9780887282195/?itm=9

    and the photos he used was taken by my children great grand parent. I don’t know what your opinion will be when it comes to his writing but I think it is worth reading even if you decide to use it afterwards as toilette paper :-) your call.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walid_Khalidi

    He taught in Princeton and Harvard

  346. bj #338

    “Two,

    The average Palestinian in Gaza voted for Hamas, which clearly wants to use violence as a means of imposing Sharia over all of Gaza, the West Bank, and Israel. It’s in their charter. From time to time, an official gets trotted out to give an interview where he reaffirms it.”

    bj,

    One of the reasons Palestinians chose Hamas is because of Israel actions, the Palestinians have been pushed too far and by Fatah, Israelis, Arabs, poor conditions, and hopelessness and breeding extreme religious nuts is not uncommon in a situation like this. The soil is actually fertile for this kind of choice.

    And yes I might sound more reasonable than your poll statistics but remember my daughters were not shot at by IDF under the slogan of Israel’s right to defend itself and no bulldozer teared down my house either so I am more sensible and logical.

  347. bj,

    On the link you provided for statistics, I found this interesting and worth sharing as well.

    39)
    Which of the following political parties do you support?

    1) PPP
    0.6
    0.7
    0.5

    2) PFLP
    4.5
    4.3
    4.7

    3) Fateh
    30.8
    27.1
    37.2

    4) Hamas
    23.0
    21.9
    25.0

    5) DFLP
    0.6
    0.5
    0.6

    6) Islamic Jihad
    2.1
    1.5
    3.2

    7) Fida
    0.1
    0.1
    0.0

    8) National Initiative (Mubadara)
    1.2
    1.6
    0.7

    9) Independent Islamists
    2.6
    2.4
    3.0

    10) Independent Nationalists
    4.1
    5.2
    2.3

    11) None of the above
    28.7
    32.8
    21.6

    12) Other, specify
    1.6
    1.8
    1.2

    30% Fateh and 28% non of the above

  348. Teddy,

    You are so kind to me and I know this made you laugh loool! but we can all disagree and be civil to each other after all that’s what friends are for.

    The Porter,

    After 4 years on this blog I am so many things, I don’t know who I am anymore but thanks lol.

    bj,

    SHUT UP!

    Gluten Free beer ewwwwwwww! you drink that I will do sake bomb!

  349. Yay! We’ve passed the 340 mark!
    Where’s SandMonkey? Come on, I was almost pretty accurate with my estimated timing:):)

  350. Twos @ 351:

    “30% Fateh and 28% non of the above”

    I guess that’s comforting… sort of!

    I wonder why Hamas is at the helm in Gaza, considering these numbers. :(

  351. bj @ 333:

    When I say “see themselves as palestinians” in my answer to Twos, I mean it like it is defined in point 3 of my post @ 331:

    A people who share common customs, origins, history, and frequently language; a nationality:

    An analogy would be the different people of Europe; we certainly all consider ourselves european if for no other reason than because we were born on this continent of ours. Many people don’t consider themselves european as a homogenous group however, even after the establishment of the EU… Me, I’m first and foremost from Copenhagen, secondarily from Zealand, then danish, then scandinavian and then european. And none of these designations have been forced onto me by foreign powers – very few danes ever considered themselves part of the third reich back during WW2.

    Palestinians before 1948? I guess they’d consider themselves citizens living in an area called Palestine by the powers that be. I highly doubt that they’d think of themselves as palestinians, along with their jewish, christian or muslim neighbours – christians would probably have felt more kinship with christians in other parts of the world; ditto for muslims and jews, pushing the palestinian identity pretty far down the ladder.

  352. Mac @ 337:

    “This statement is false, “The ban was kept in place for a week to let things cool down, and was then lifted.” The ban is still there”

    Really? Hey, I’m just going by what is written in various newspapers…

    http://www.impunitywatch.com/impunity_watch_middle_eas/2009/10/al-aqsa-restrictions-lifted-as-tensions-mount.html
    http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/10/200910111514575693.html
    http://www.impunitywatch.com/impunity_watch_middle_eas/2009/10/al-aqsa-restrictions-lifted-as-tensions-mount.html

    …and a few others that Sam’s blog won’t let me post.

    I’m not personally living in Israel, so I can’t tell if ALL the worlds media are lying – you’re obviously MUCH better informed…! ;)

  353. brooklynjon says:

    Two,

    Regardless of the reason for the radicalization of the Palestinians, the facts on the ground are that they are radicalized; I was specifically responding to this comment:

    “The average Palestinian and Israeli want to live like any other person and doesn’t want war or destruction.

    I can be wrong but I tend to believe so”

    I do believe that the average Palestinian may very well want war and destruction. Or, if not the average, at least a very large number. But, that really obscures the important issue. It’s not whether the percentage wanting to blow up cafes and kindergartens is 50% or 5% or 0.5%. The real question is: What are the peaceful Palestinians willing to do to keep the violent ones from committing acts of aggression against civilians on the other side. If someone is reasonable and peaceful, but they do not prevent a militant from launching a missile from their front yard, it really isn’t very helpful. You simply can’t achieve a meaningful peace with a people if they are unwilling to suppress the militants within their population.

    And yes, some ham-handed actions by Israel have caused radicalization of the Palestinians. But then again, so has an aggressive campaign of incitement to violence that has been ongoing in Palestinian schools, mosques, and TV programs for years.

    And similarly, I don’t recall you being quite as sympathetic to those Israelis who harbor negative views of Palestinians or Arabs, even though those views have been fostered by actions that you abhor. If it is reasonable for a Palestinian whose home has been destroyed by an Israeli bulldozer to hate Israelis, is it not reasonable for an Israeli whose family was killed by a Palestinian “militant” to hate Palestinians?

    Given the fact that I, bj, was personally on a train that was sabotaged, derailed, and could easily have been killed, what am I allowed to feel? And I remind you, I never invaded, occupied, or terrorized anyone. I was just studying medicine and treating patients, both Israeli and Palestinian alike.

    bj

  354. brooklynjon says:

    Adam,

    You’re posting links from al Jazeera? Surely you know they’re part of the Zionist-controlled media!

    I personally loved this line:
    “Suspicions were rife among Palestinians that Jewish worshippers would try to pray at the revered site during this period.”

    Holy smokes! Prayer! How outrageous! Of course it only starts with prayer, then it moves on to acts of charity, and you know how provocative that can be!

    It reminds me of a classic joke in Jewish circles:

    There is an old story about a young boy who had to give a message to his
    father who was seated in a synagogue on Yom Kippur night.
    He tried to go in but, having no ticket for a seat, was prevented by the usher.
    The boy explained he would not be going to stay; it was just for a
    moment that he needed to speak to his father. The usher
    grudgingly admitted the lad but then gave him a stern warning
    “I’ll let you in, but don’t let me catch you praying.”

    bj

  355. brooklynjon says:

    DWDS @316
    “Oh ya…as far as you can remember Muslims have never been denied access to their holy shit LMAO, there happens to be an illegal occupying destructive force their right now called Israel that doesn’t allow Muslim youths and any males under 55 yrs of age to enter the al aqsa mosque, the holiest Muslim sight in Jerusalem.”

    Two @329,
    “The Palestinians that I know have no problem with the religion of Israelis their case is all about land not what they practice.”

    Okay, so given these statements, can someone please explain this:

    “Suspicions were rife among Palestinians that Jewish worshippers would try to pray at the revered site during this period.”

    If, Twosret, the Palestinians have no problem with the religion of Israelis, why are they opposed to PRAYING? Granted, you added the “that I know”, so it is possible (perhaps likely) that the Palestinians that you know are not representative of the larger group of Palestinians? Or, more importantly, are the people you know not representative of those who may chose to pelt Jews with rocks for the high crime of praying (praying, incidentally, to the very same Gd that they pray to).

    DWDS,

    Okay, my friend. Is it a double standard that you protest the temporary prohibition of prayer by Muslim men under the age of 50 (not 55 as you claimed) who lacked an ID card (which you failed to mention), but you don’t mind the fact that Jews are not permitted to pray there AT ALL. Not men, not women. Not under 50, not over 50. Not this week, not ever. This is, as you note, the holiest site to Islam in Jerusalem. But you fail to note that this is the holiest site to Jews IN THE WORLD. The holiest site period. And prayer by Jews – even the “suspicion” that a Jew might pray – gets them pelted with rocks. Hmmmm…. might be a double standard. What do you think? And, in this case, who exactly is occupying whom?

    bj

  356. bj @ 358:

    DWDS demanded links to Al Jazeera or similar sources further up… I figure that as long as I quote them, it’ll keep them from calling foul. :D

    Then again, he’ll just as soon turn on a dime and call it a zionist mouthpiece too as accept any information that doesn’t suit him…

  357. brooklynjon says:
  358. Careful, bj… There are precious few sources that DWDS will acknowledge as it is! :D

  359. From bj’s article:

    “The Islamic world is caught in a strategic quandry of vast dimensions. Muslims cannot condemn terrorism because to do so would seem to side with America and the hated Zionists. However, if Muslims support terrorism, they play into the hands of America and Zionist by “tarnishing the image of Islam.” ”

    Darned all the bad luck!! Can’t win if you blow people up, can’t win if you condemn it!! These are the people that think they represent the true God? (snickering and shaking my head) God seems to have abandoned them if you ask me.

  360. The Islamic world is caught in a strategic quandry of vast dimensions.

    I’m half tempted to reword that paragraph for the Western world just so Sand Ape can see how ridiculous and meally-mouthed it looks to an outsider… but he wouldn’t get it anyway and then he’s come back in 6 months and say it was my zionist warmonger opinion :o

  361. “then he’s come back in 6 months” under a different moniker!

  362. “egardless of the reason for the radicalization of the Palestinians, the facts on the ground are that they are radicalized;”

    Totally disagree, you can’t ignore why and who contributed to this phenomena because you don’t want Israel to be blamed.

    ” It’s not whether the percentage wanting to blow up cafes and kindergartens is 50% or 5% or 0.5%. The real question is: What are the peaceful Palestinians willing to do to keep the violent ones from committing acts of aggression against civilians on the other side”

    The precentage presented was in regards of Palestinians voting for a military force and aggressive Hamas verses Fatah and Palestinians who are not voting for either of them. It goes to show that Palestinians are torn and not trusting either parties verses your claim that they are all for Hamas and violence and destruction. Israel is not destroyed the reality is that the Palestinian homes and land are destroyed and many innocents are killed.

    I would like to add that many Israelis vote for violence and military actions against innocent civilians and they vote for illegal settlements also and the statistics are out there to show how many innocent children and women on the Palestinian side were killed and you can dig as much data as you want but the numbers are clear. There are way more innocent Palestinians killed by Israeli forces than there are Israelis killed by terrorist.

    “If it is reasonable for a Palestinian whose home has been destroyed by an Israeli bulldozer to hate Israelis, is it not reasonable for an Israeli whose family was killed by a Palestinian “militant” to hate Palestinians?”

    of course everyone is entitled to hate the other after violent actions why would I think it is different. Based on your bad experience on the train you are entitled to your feelings. Based on my experience on a seder dinner in Toronto 1992 at my Jewish neighbor home where I was graciously invited by my Jewish neighbor until a friend of my neighbor shouted when he figured out that I am Egyptian that it is disgusting that I am at a Seder table. I am entitled to feel how I want to feel about that too. I have chosen not to hate Jews based on this man’s actions because I knew he is a bad apple.

    In general you are free to take the act of some and hate a whole nation based on your bad experience and learn how to not fall into hating a religion and it’s people based on the action of some.

    Your call

  363. “if, Twosret, the Palestinians have no problem with the religion of Israelis, why are they opposed to PRAYING? Granted, you added the “that I know”, so it is possible (perhaps likely) that the Palestinians that you know are not representative of the larger group of Palestinians? Or, more importantly, are the people you know not representative of those who may chose to pelt Jews with rocks for the high crime of praying (praying, incidentally, to the very same Gd that they pray to).”

    bj,

    I have heard before that there is a huge problem over the holy sites of Al-Aqsa and some digging by Jewish archaeologists underneath it. I am not aware of this specific incident you and Adam are referring to, I need to read about it.

    So please before you jump into the Palestinians I know and who they represent hold your horses until I research and learn more about this incident.

    All what I know that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is all about LAND and many forces on both sides who are extreme want it to be holy war and related to religion.

  364. Twos @ 366:

    “Totally disagree, you can’t ignore why and who contributed to this phenomena because you don’t want Israel to be blamed.”

    Twos, the numbers say that more than half of all palestinians asked in the poll wants armed attacks against israeli civilians. How is that not “radicalized”?

    Then again, at the same time almost 62% of all palestinians asked in the poll declare themselves supportive of the peace process… For attacks against civilians and for the peace process? Maybe they’re not radicalized; only schizophrenic? Or plain stupid…

  365. Twos @ 366:

    “I am not aware of this specific incident you and Adam are referring to, I need to read about it.”

    Actually, it was DWDS who referred to it, but fair enough in any case – I wasn’t aware of it before they mentioned it either… :)

    It seems a rather minor scrape between the two parties, but in many ways it demonstrates the shortcomings of both rather well; the israelis overreact even though they know they’ll just give their opponents more fuel for the fire and raise eyebrows around the western world. The palestinians are just offended that anyone might do something that they don’t agree with.

  366. “Based on my experience on a seder dinner in Toronto 1992 at my Jewish neighbor home where I was graciously invited by my Jewish neighbor until a friend of my neighbor shouted when he figured out that I am Egyptian that it is disgusting that I am at a Seder table.”

    What a total freak…!

  367. Adam,
    the numbers say that more than half of all palestinians asked in the poll wants armed attacks against israeli civilians. How is that not “radicalized”?

    That’s not proof of being radicalized, considering there’s an ongoing conflict. It is proof that not as many Palestinians want peace as Twosret and others would like people to believe.

    Twosret, that’s not quite the way you told that story to me when we were chatting! And also to the best of my recollection you used that story to justify your bigotry against Jews. So here you are saying that you despite that incident you have “chosen” to be fair anyway… where’s the evidence of fairness? And that brings up the whole “chicken and the egg” thing. If you were sitting at the dinner table in a Jewish home with at a Jewish dinner party and expressed the same kinds of opinions you have on this blog in the past, I’d be very surprised if everyone their was able to hold their tongue. And if there’s one thing everyone on this blog knows about you, it’s that you are no diplomat! Maybe your friend, knowing you as well as she must have to invite you to dinner at her house, should have been more careful about choosing her dinner guests but that doesn’t mean they (the other dinner guests) were in the wrong! What do you think would happen if an Israeli Jew who lived in the US was invited to a dinner party at a Muslim Arabs house, where the other guests were all Muslim Arabs, and he/she started promoting zionism? No problems?

  368. “That’s not proof of being radicalized,”

    Sorry, but I’ll have to disagree – it’s VERY radical to support the random, intentional killing of civilians for no other reason than them being of a different ethnic origin than your own…

  369. Yes, it would be, but that’s not what the poll showed Adam. That’s not even what the poll asked. And also there’s the issue that there’s a lot more going on in the Arab-Israeli conflict than differences in ethnicity.

    I’d generally agree that anybody who supports the deliberate killing of innocents is not only radical but monstrous, regardless of justification. But what happens the first time somebody brings up the US atomic bombs being dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Doesn’t a discussion about the justifications ensue? The difference between “collateral damage” and terrorism is when innocents are killed precisely because they are innocents, because that causes more panic and fear than attacking targets that have military value. There’s no moral justification for that, even in Islam. I just don’t like to see you going with simplistic arguments, Adam. They are easily defeated.

  370. Craig, the way I read it, that’s pretty much exactly what the poll describes…

    “34) Concerning armed attacks against Israeli civilians inside Israel, I….”

    That’s a very definite question… No “if”s” or “but’s”. I’m aware that questions in polls can be quite misleading, but this is a very simple question that forces no hidden assumptions – it’s basically “yes” or “no”. What’s the difference between “supporting” and “strongly supporting”? People die no matter what degree you choose.

    The US A-bombs? They were dropped on two industrial cities, in a war where the inevitable looser was willing to sacrifice 2 million+ soldiers and civilians because of honour… The bombs killed a tenth of that number, many of whom were directly involved in supporting the war effort (and there was an actual war going on, by the way) as well as the horrendous atrocities committed by japanese soldiers in conquered territories, and thus ended up saving millions of lives. In any case, these attacks were no different than those against Dresden and other industrial german cities – they just involved 1 bomb, not 100.000. The intent was never to kill german or japanese children, but to cripple the war effort of the adversary and bring a swift end to the war. Half a century of palestinian/arab “efforts” has shown us that rockets hitting civilian israeli targets at random does not produce this outcome – a continued support of this strategy must therefore constitute some degree of radicalization.

    I agree with your dislike of simplistic arguments; I just don’t agree that this is one…

  371. Craig,

    The story never changed and my neighbor in Toronto is still my friend and acted with dignity and the man is a wacko! not only that, I lived with a Jewish family in Florida for 2 and half years and named my daughter after their daughter and we are still in touch.

    I am sure you will try to find anything hateful as usual in any story. What about your numerous posts to nuke the middle east and ethnically cleanse the arabs? you remember that too?

  372. Adam b.,

    In general I will take polls and research especially in the middle east with a grain of salt. I worked very closely with one of the most reputable research and advertising companies in Egypt and we found that it is really hard to come out with any accurate information so you have to keep in mind that there is a decent margin of errors on those numbers.

  373. Twosret, I think I told that story here before you did, and you accused me of making it up! Anyway, no matter what happened there you are the only one who knows the truth, but I choose to apply what I know of you and the way you talk to people who disagree with you about Palestinian issues to apply that grain of salt you mentioned to Adam to your stories about Jews being mean to you. Afterall, you and I used to be friends until you ignored my warnings one time too many that I was offended by some of the things you were saying to and about me. And now you say I was being mean to you.

    All water under the bridge now, but I’m just here to say that just because Twosret says things played out a certain way doesn’t mean that’s the way it happened.

  374. Holy Ape shit,

    Nearly 400 posts is a lot to rap my head around.

    I thought the Arab/Israeli debate was over? Spending 6 months on this blog, I left, learning that people will always have different opinions but ultimately left here with all of us agreeing we have way too much in common to keep bickering up. Wasn’t that the general consensus? So what the hell happened? Was I so much the apex of antagonistic debate that I am pelted even after I have left in peace and am no longer here? So really when you think about it, things look pretty grim for the whole Arab/Israeli conflict which has lasted for over 60 years as compared to six months. Actually it has been centuries hasn’t it?

    Yes it is true I am biased and more anti-Israel but that doesn’t matter anymore and definitely doesn’t mean I am pro Palestinian either.

    Who the hell is DWDS and down with double standards? An anti-Israeli, so, what’s new? As far as I remember this blog only welcomes right wing christian imperial Zionist’s, so nothing new here. As I failed to see early that you can’t can’t really call this an objective blog in the least bit due to the above blog warning, but thought I did a relatively good job none the less on touching base on a few issues and still managing to leave in relative peace. Man was I wrong I guess.

    I have been busy observing Ramadan and at the same time, don’t laugh, attending in house debates sponsored by a local Coptic Church in Cairo.

    I just came back to share a link with some old friends, but in the end, I am sort of sad that I did. I don’t think anyone can blame me either, oh well. I don’t think this link will have the same impact it might have had on 1 or 2 indecisive silent readers like it would have had when I left 3 months ago when things were more lax. But anyways..

    (Note: I am not saying that either side is less crazy than the other, but just sharing this point of view which might disappear off youtube like the others do. But then again, this is a very objective doc that might remain a bit, but not forever)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoFODk_Mdo8

    I still believe that all religions, people, have their good and bad, as this could not be more true than already proven this blog.

  375. Welcome back sand ape. what an informative video from a perspective that is hardly looked at.

    I think what makes us keep coming to this blog is the restriction that it’s only for those who support the Right Wing Christian Zionist Conspiracy in the Middle east, a brilliant marketing ploy by the sandmonkey LOL. If it didn’t have that warning we probably wouldn’t even care.

    I do have to differ with you though on the part about “Zionism was born into violence. Hertzel’s original plan was for a sovereign Jewish Utopian state, keeping in mind Jews are considered a race, ne of the oldest races on the planet. It started out having much less to do with religion than it had to do with finding a home for Europe’s rejected Jews (akhnazi’s). strangely other Jews that were non European were considered second class citizens by the European Jews in Israel. The majority of Arab states had patriotic Jews that were no longer welcome due to the creation of the state of Israel. That’s when all the violence started.

    It is fascinating to watch this video because this tells us a thing or two about how God promises Jerusalem to a God fearing people and not to those who disobey God. Moses himself not being allowed to enter Israel because he made just one mistake, as well as the whole tribe being lost in the desert for forty years. If one religion was better than the other then that religion would hold onto Jeruslame eternally. Politics and religions just don’t mix. The world should be run by secularists, even Arab or Hebrew ones.

    Bye bye to all religions since they can’t get along :(

  376. Twos @ 376:

    Don’t worry, my trust in polls like these is respectfully limited – this is why I mainly focus on the fact that Hamas was put in charge in Gaza after having been elected by the citizens, and Hamas is definitely radical in their continued demand for the destruction of Israel…

    I do hope that the Gazans at some point get the opportunity to show that they don’t actually agree with the motivations of Hamas, but the disadvantage of putting a basically non-democratic party into the seat of power is that, well… you seldom get the chance to change your mind!

  377. muhammed @ 379:

    “I think what makes us keep coming to this blog is the restriction that it’s only for those who support the Right Wing Christian Zionist Conspiracy in the Middle east,”

    You DO see the ridiculously selfcontradictionary nature of that claim, right? :D

  378. “self-contradictory”… :D

  379. contradictionary ha ha that was a good one, yes?

  380. This is why Twosret, DWDS and others do not agree with your links,

    The mainstream media is in a similar quandry. They refuse to use the word “terrorist” because they want us to think that terrorists represent Muslims. However, by not drawing a clear line between terrorists and regular Muslims, the mainstream media is painting all Muslims as terrorists.

    This is from the posted article itself. Any quams?

  381. downWithDoubleStandards-a.k.a. DWDS says:

    Welcome back sand ape I hope you will stick around just for the hell of it?

  382. downWithDoubleStandards-a.k.a. DWDS says:

    Wow people must be sick in the head to try and dismiss this as propoganda

    This is Zionism…

    http://www.infowars.com/israel-hopes-to-colonize-parts-of-iraq-as-greater-israel/

    Israel hopes to colonize parts of Iraq as “Greater Israel”

    Israeli expansionists, their intentions to take full control of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip and permanently keep the Golan Heights of Syria and expand into southern Lebanon already well known, also have their eyes on parts of Iraq considered part of a biblical “Greater Israel”.

    Israel reportedly has plans to relocate thousands of Kurdish Jews from Israel, including expatriates from Kurdish Iran, to the Iraqi cities of Mosul and Nineveh under the guise of religious pilgrimages to ancient Jewish religious shrines. According to Kurdish sources, the Israelis are secretly working with the Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG) to carry out the integration of Kurdish and other Jews into areas of Iraq under control of the KRG.

    Kurdish, Iraqi Sunni Muslims, and Turkmen have noted that Kurdish Israelis began to buy land in Iraqi Kurdistan, after the U.S. invasion in 2003, that is considered historical Jewish “property”.

    The Israelis are particularly interested in the shrine of the Jewish prophet Nahum in al Qush, the prophet Jonah in Mosul, and the tomb of the prophet Daniel in Kirkuk. Israelis are also trying to claim Jewish “properties” outside of the Kurdish region, including the shrine of Ezekiel in the village of al-Kifl in Babel Province near Najaf and the tomb of Ezra in al-Uzayr in Misan Province, near Basra, both in southern Iraq’s Shia-dominated territory. Israeli expansionists consider these shrines and tombs as much a part of “Greater Israel” as Jerusalem and the West Bank, which they call “Judea and Samaria”.

    Kurdish and Iraqi sources report that Israel’s Mossad is working hand-in-hand with Israeli companies and “tourists” to stake a claim to the Jewish “properties” of Israel in Iraq. The Mossad has already been heavily involved in training the Kurdish Pesha Merga military forces.

    Reportedly assisting the Israelis are foreign mercenaries paid for by U.S. Christian evangelical circles that support the concept of “Christian Zionism”.

    Iraqi nationalists charge that the Israeli expansion into Iraq is supported by both major Kurdish factions, including the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan headed by Iraq’s nominal President Jalal Talabani. Talabani’s son, Qubad Talabani, serves as the KRG’s representative in Washington, where he lives with his wife Sherri Gabrielle Kraham, who is Jewish.

    Also supporting the Israeli land acquisition activities is the Kurdistan Democratic Party, headed by Massoud Barzani, the president of the KRG. One of Barzani’s five sons, Binjirfan Barzani, is reportedly heavily involved with the Israelis.

    The Israelis and their Christian Zionist supporters enter Iraq not through Baghdad but through Turkey. In order to depopulate residents of lands the Israelis claim, Mossad operatives and Christian Zionist mercenaries are staging terrorist attacks against Chaldean Christians, particularly in Nineveh, Irbil, al-Hamdaniya, Bartalah, Talasqaf, Batnayah, Bashiqah, Elkosheven, Uqrah, and Mosul.

    These attacks by the Israelis and their allies are usually reported as being the responsibility of “Al Qaeda” and other Islamic “jihadists”.

    The ultimate aim of the Israelis is to depopulate the Christian population in and around Mosul and claim the land as biblical Jewish land that is part of “Greater Israel.” The Israeli/Christian Zionist operation is a replay of the depopulation of the Palestinians in the British mandate of Palestine after World War II.

    In June 2003, a delegation of Israelis visited Mosul and said that it was Israel’s intentions, with the assistance of Barzani, to establish Israeli control of the shrine of Jonah in Mosul and the shrine of Nahum in the Mosul plains. The Israelis said Israeli and Iranian Jewish pilgrims would travel via Turkey to the area of Mosul and take over lands where Iraqi Christians lived

  383. SELF-DICTIONARY HA HA that was hilarious

  384. Israel hopes to colonize parts of Iraq as “Greater Israel”

    Ha Ha ha, I bet they do, what else is new? Wouldn’t you if you were allowed to get away with murder, I mean why not?

    http://www.infowars.com/israel-hopes-to-colonize-parts-of-iraq-as-greater-israel/

    Israeli expansionists, their intentions to take full control of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip and permanently keep the Golan Heights of Syria and expand into southern Lebanon already well known, also have their eyes on parts of Iraq considered part of a biblical “Greater Israel”.

    Israel reportedly has plans to relocate thousands of Kurdish Jews from Israel, including expatriates from Kurdish Iran, to the Iraqi cities of Mosul and Nineveh under the guise of religious pilgrimages to ancient Jewish religious shrines. According to Kurdish sources, the Israelis are secretly working with the Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG) to carry out the integration of Kurdish and other Jews into areas of Iraq under control of the KRG.

    Kurdish, Iraqi Sunni Muslims, and Turkmen have noted that Kurdish Israelis began to buy land in Iraqi Kurdistan, after the U.S. invasion in 2003, that is considered historical Jewish “property”.

    The Israelis are particularly interested in the shrine of the Jewish prophet Nahum in al Qush, the prophet Jonah in Mosul, and the tomb of the prophet Daniel in Kirkuk. Israelis are also trying to claim Jewish “properties” outside of the Kurdish region, including the shrine of Ezekiel in the village of al-Kifl in Babel Province near Najaf and the tomb of Ezra in al-Uzayr in Misan Province, near Basra, both in southern Iraq’s Shia-dominated territory. Israeli expansionists consider these shrines and tombs as much a part of “Greater Israel” as Jerusalem and the West Bank, which they call “Judea and Samaria”.

    Israel can’t have its land because they are disobeying God.

  385. Kurdish and Iraqi sources report that Israel’s Mossad is working hand-in-hand with Israeli companies and “tourists” to stake a claim to the Jewish “properties” of Israel in Iraq. The Mossad has already been heavily involved in training the Kurdish Pesha Merga military forces.

    Reportedly assisting the Israelis are foreign mercenaries paid for by U.S. Christian evangelical circles that support the concept of “Christian Zionism”.

    Iraqi nationalists charge that the Israeli expansion into Iraq is supported by both major Kurdish factions, including the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan headed by Iraq’s nominal President Jalal Talabani. Talabani’s son, Qubad Talabani, serves as the KRG’s representative in Washington, where he lives with his wife Sherri Gabrielle Kraham, who is Jewish.

    Also supporting the Israeli land acquisition activities is the Kurdistan Democratic Party, headed by Massoud Barzani, the president of the KRG. One of Barzani’s five sons, Binjirfan Barzani, is reportedly heavily involved with the Israelis.

    The Israelis and their Christian Zionist supporters enter Iraq not through Baghdad but through Turkey. In order to depopulate residents of lands the Israelis claim, Mossad operatives and Christian Zionist mercenaries are staging terrorist attacks against Chaldean Christians, particularly in Nineveh, Irbil, al-Hamdaniya, Bartalah, Talasqaf, Batnayah, Bashiqah, Elkosheven, Uqrah, and Mosul.

    These attacks by the Israelis and their allies are usually reported as being the responsibility of “Al Qaeda” and other Islamic “jihadists”.

    The ultimate aim of the Israelis is to depopulate the Christian population in and around Mosul and claim the land as biblical Jewish land that is part of “Greater Israel.” The Israeli/Christian Zionist operation is a replay of the depopulation of the Palestinians in the British mandate of Palestine after World War II.

    In June 2003, a delegation of Israelis visited Mosul and said that it was Israel’s intentions, with the assistance of Barzani, to establish Israeli control of the shrine of Jonah in Mosul and the shrine of Nahum in the Mosul plains. The Israelis said Israeli and Iranian Jewish pilgrims would travel via Turkey to the area of Mosul and take over lands where Iraqi Christians lived.

  386. WORLD CONSUNSUS RULES, this is what is happening outside the sandmonkey snakepit. But hey, I guess you can fashionably call them all SandApe Mwhaha haha

    Tim(Iowa) Says:

    February 3rd, 2009 at 6:52 am
    Zionism is like poison in the Blood stream. It Kills everything it touches.
    jon stewart Says:

    February 3rd, 2009 at 7:40 am
    you all are retarded .. there is NO WAY for israel to protect that much land..ESP. it being surrounded by the worlds majority of muslims. There are more dirty arabs in israel than jews! . stop listenin to this bullshit and please write stories less absurd .. this is just nonesense.. and for people to believe it ..tells you how gullible they are. hey the NWO is coming! ohhh noooo .. well no shit..they dont want dumbasses like most of you reproducin because your worthless . population is too great . we need to kill more . P.S. your all dumber than a monkey. thank you.

    Frank Reply:

    February 3rd, 2009 at 8:26 am

    Well if the population is too great then what are you going to do to yourself to solve that problem ohhh and your family too. We are all people you know with feelings and life and if you think it is ok to kill people because the “population is too great” then you are just a heartless prick.

    jonstewart Says:

    February 3rd, 2009 at 7:44 am
    you guys are stupid

    freeminded Says:

    February 3rd, 2009 at 8:34 am
    John Kent UK Says:

    February 3rd, 2009 at 12:27 am
    the promised land runs from the nile to just out side of baghdad thats why.
    you the fucking stupid american people are helping them ,not only have you fucked the world’s economy but your helping them fucking lying scum bags ( jews ).
    a lot of the british puplic hate americans now.
    i have seen this in the history

    I’m not a history major but did the Americans send your people guns to defend yourselves againt Germany? I believe you guys are the stupid ones. I have read after the war insted of keeping the guns for future attacks or the right thing to do was send them back to America to the people who supplied them for you you dumb shits dumped them in the ocean. So before you call the American people stupid look up your history past and present and then thank an American for your freedom jackass. I bet you come crying for help if something happens like that again which I hope it does not. Then when we help your silly ass again then you can call them stupid Americans. Goes to show when they let a kid on the computer what they say. Once more why are you so afraid of the Jews? You can relay a message for the British public that hate Americans for us, would you do that? Here it is “Kiss our Ass”.

    John Kent UK Reply:

    February 3rd, 2009 at 10:53 am

    the british tax payer paid for them thats why the US sent them it was not a free shipment go back to school your self and find out who funded germany?
    mate i would love to see your point of view but i can not get my head up my arse hole that far.
    not scared of jews just know that they are bad for the world.
    kid i wished would love to live my youth again i have served with Royal Engineers for 17 years.
    i see you left the last thing out “i have seen this in the history funny enough, do’s any one know about hitler and what he did apart from the one good thing , similarity any one.

    MyFreespeech4u Says:

    February 3rd, 2009 at 8:47 am
    And you all though Hitler was crazy! ,Truman, Ike, (Star of David) Pair, They knew of the Camps,
    And so did the Pope. A man says I got a idea!! lets make a state with these people and all the news can see how we saved them

    But these unfounded accusations…bad stuff.

    samieh Says:

    February 3rd, 2009 at 10:43 am
    http://www.imranhosein.org/vid…..esiah.html

    video on the false messiah

    Christine Says:

    February 3rd, 2009 at 11:01 am
    Dual citizen Israeli Americans inside our government orchestrated 9/11 on us.

    michael Reply:

    February 3rd, 2009 at 12:54 pm

    prove they are dual citizens.

    Seten Says:

    February 3rd, 2009 at 11:03 am
    GODs plan is to gather ALL the Jews of the world into one small place so he can cleanse the earth of the trouble makers. Greater Israel is needed to fit all the cursed ones in time for Jesus to return with his sword. Support Israel because it is God’s greatest RAT TRAP in the history of mankind !!

    flipped Says:

    February 3rd, 2009 at 11:26 am
    Well I can see both the Iraqi Shi’ites and Iran calmly standing by while that’s allowed to happen. Anyway I don’t think that Israel has the population, let alone army to increase the size of it’s country by annexation, especially as they’ll also have to grab a largish slice of Jordan as well. If it attempts to do so then it will only increase the size of the borders that it has to defend and make it easier for Hezbullah and Hamas to attack Israel’s underbelly.

    Lee Says:

    February 3rd, 2009 at 11:40 am
    The one you all refer to Jesus is really named YAHSHUA HA MESSIYAH! The name of Jesus may, mean “I AM” in that the first-person pronoun, “I” is “Je” in French. and the first-person verb-of-being, “am” is “suis” in French. So the GREAT ” I AM”, in Hebrew, is ” Yode Hay Vawv Hay”, and is spelled as “YHWH”, and phonetically, it is spoken as YAHWEH. But, the name of Jesus may have initially been spelled as “Je Suis” Christ again, meaning “I Am” The Anointed One. What seems to has happened is there was a Latin coversion of “Je Suis” to “Jesus” about 1600+ years ago. To be totally correct, the name is indeed YHWH HA MESSIYH, in Hebrew. Finally, Hebrew names have meanings associated with them. Unlike other languages, the language of Hebrew has words that identify a PURPOSE within the names. YAHSHUA means “YHWH’s SALVATION” and Emanuel means “Man With ELAH” = “Man With GOD”, who was again, the one human being in history known as YAHSHUA HA MESSIYAH aka “Jesus The Christ”.

    Well, that’s what I wanted to share this Tuesday Morning. And, no, YAHSHUA was NOT an Israeli! He was a JUDEAN (YHDWH) from the Tribe of Jacob’s oldest Son, Judea. And I doubt he would be in favor of conquering lands and killing people for land gain.

    Take care out there.

    –Lee

    rebellion Says:

    February 3rd, 2009 at 11:52 am
    I got an idea lets all do crazy shit and say we are jews… they think they can say everyone else is wrong well if you cant beat em join em from now on I am jewish wreaking ball… but I am going to be anti nwo. If we overthrow the us government and reinstitute the constitution israel would shit and I think the rest would pounce right then. By the way the usa invented concentration camps … everyone stop paying interest and while we are at it fuck taxes I remember a tea party…

    gordholio Says:

    February 3rd, 2009 at 12:17 pm
    rdholio Says:

    Lost Patriot Says:

    February 3rd, 2009 at 12:33 pm
    So what’s new. The Zionists are moving toward their goal with the help of their enabler the USA. Maybe the USA is now more than an enabler. As Ariel Sharon said in 2001, “We the Jewish people control America”. In this light I can assure people who are worried that people “hate” Jews not to worry. The people that discuss this subject are upset that our tax dollars are going for murder, theft, and enslavement of other people. As far as Judaism is concerned, it is as good a religion as any other. It’s the zionists and the holacaust they are creating that we don’t like.

    Dave Says:

    February 3rd, 2009 at 12:35 pm
    They don’t want to “colonize” iraq,THEY WANT THEIR OIL!
    (Google:Kirkuk to Haifa pipeline)

    TheGooch Says:

    February 3rd, 2009 at 2:04 pm
    The Jews are the strangest people in world history because, confronted with the question whether to be or not to be, they chose, with a perfectly uncanny deliberateness, to be at any price:

    this price was the radical falsification of all nature,
    all naturalness,
    all reality, of the whole inner world as well as the outer.

    They defined themselves sharply against all the conditions under which a people had hitherto been able to live, been allowed to live; out of themselves they created a counter-concept to natural conditions: they turned religion, cult, morality, history, psychology, one after the other, into an incurable contradiction to their natural values.

    We encounter this same phenomenon once again and in immeasurably enlarged proportions, yet merely as a copy: the Christian church cannot make the slightest claim to originality when compared with the “holy people.” That precisely is why the Jews are the most catastrophic people of world history: by their aftereffect they have made mankind so thoroughly false that even today the Christian can feel anti-Jewish without realizing that he himself is the ultimate Jewish consequence.

    -F.W. Nietzsche

    TheGooch Says:

    February 3rd, 2009 at 2:14 pm
    The Jews are the strangest people in world history because, confronted with the question whether to be or not to be, they chose, with a perfectly uncanny deliberateness, to be at any price:

    this price was the radical falsification of all nature,
    all naturalness,
    all reality,
    of the whole inner world as well as the outer.

    They defined themselves sharply against all the conditions under which a people had hitherto been able to live, been allowed to live; out of themselves they created a counter-concept to natural conditions: they turned religion, cult, morality, history, psychology, one after the other, into an incurable contradiction to their natural values. We encounter this same phenomenon once again and in immeasurably enlarged proportions, yet merely as a copy: the Christian church cannot make the slightest claim to originality when compared with the “holy people.”

    That precisely is why the Jews are the most catastrophic people of world history: by their aftereffect they have made mankind so thoroughly false that even today the Christian can feel anti-Jewish without realizing that he himself is the ultimate Jewish consequence.

    -Fredrich Wilhelm Nietzsche

    TheGooch Says:

    February 3rd, 2009 at 2:18 pm
    What was formerly just sick is today indecent — it is indecent to be a Christian today.

    And here begins my nausea.

    I look around: not one word has remained of what was formerly called “truth”; we can no longer stand it if a priest as much as uses the word “truth.”

    If we have even the smallest claim to integrity, we must know today that a theologian, a priest, a pope, not merely is wrong in every sentence he speaks, but lies —

    that he is no longer at liberty to lie from “innocence” or “ignorance.” The priest too knows as well as anybody else that there is no longer any “God,” any “sinner,” any “Redeemer” — that “free will” and “moral world order” are lies: seriousness, the profound self-overcoming of the spirit, no longer permits anybody not to know about this.

    All the concepts of the church have been recognized for what they are,

    the most malignant counterfeits that exist, the aim of which is to devalue nature and natural values;
    the priest himself has been recognized for what he is, the most dangerous kind of parasite, the real poison-spider of life.

    We know, today our conscience knows, what these uncanny inventions of the priests and the church are really worth, what ends they served in reducing mankind to such a state of self-violation that its sight can arouse nausea: the concepts “beyond,” “Last Judgment,” “immortality of the soul,”‘ and “soul” itself are instruments of torture, systems of cruelties by virtue of which the priest became master, remained master

    -F.W. Nietzsche

    JBLCVA Says:

    February 3rd, 2009 at 2:56 pm
    Those who oppose ISRAEL/JERUSALEM The same oppose YHWH I will gladly give my e mail add.
    I am not ashamed. These evil days God will bring to an end. The Father will send his King
    at the appointed time. He will stop man, Satan from total destruction. That is the GOOD
    NEWS. Man does NOT KNOW the way of Peace. Look at history for the utter barbarism man
    has heaped upon another. ‘Thy Kingdom Come”

    Life Says:

    February 3rd, 2009 at 3:39 pm
    The zionists are trangressing and exceeding the limits. God has put them to the test and they have failed and behaved proudly.

    – And he it is who made you succesors in the land and raised some of you above others by various grades, that he might try you by what he has given you,surely your lord is quck to requite evil, and he is most surely forgiving merciful. – Quran -

    Senoj Xela Kuf Says:

    February 3rd, 2009 at 6:49 pm
    You’re a fucking idiot.

    Not An Idiot Says:

    February 3rd, 2009 at 7:17 pm
    You’re a fucking idiot.

    joseph daniel riley Says:

    February 3rd, 2009 at 10:20 pm
    As I examine the article and the comments, it saddens my heart. Wake up America! This Article is shewing the last Evil Works of Satan. To call names and use empty words, can help no one. This Nation will soon help put in place the false peace, then the Son of perdition can be seated in TYRE. The land in So. Lebanon will be controlled by Israel. The W.E.O.G. must be seated in the W.T.O. It is the 10th power that John spoke of in Rev.13. this is why the War was brought on by Mr. Bush. It would also destroy the Economy, and cause the deficits. The other 3 are the E.U. N.A.F.T.A,the Pacific Rim.. Mr. Obama lied to the people, you cannot serve 2 masters, You cannot serve God and Mammon. The governments and the Religions were set in place to deceive and divide and destroy. The Word of God declares that a House divided cannot stand. Satan was very clever to set in place a Nation like the U.S.A. so the Evil Works could be brought to an end. and then the Son of Destruction could be seated in TYRE. He will shew His Works to the People, if you are Ignorant of them and accept His Works you will take His Mark 6. You will also accept the works of the False Prophet 6, which is this Pope. then when Satan gets his Image from the Earth and stands up you will agree to His Mark 6, you will be in grave danger. For those that have not the understanding will face a Tormented Hell. How sad, that men choose to be Ignorant of Satan’s Plan, that will destroy Mankind. Yes time is running out, and 5 more major things are to be put in place. A Servant of the God of Israel. joedr@theriver.com

    JohnJancar Says:

    February 3rd, 2009 at 10:53 pm
    This is tyranny in action, the Romans did it, Hitler did it, now America and Israel are doing it. This is classic tyranny. Attack people on the ground of self-defense, then go in and take the country over. Install governments that are loyal to you and follow your edicts, and…we have the classic tyrannies we have had throughout all of history. And dont say it cant happen, its ALWAYS happened. There have always been powerful elites throughout history who were evil and despotic and who only desired war and conquest and increasing their power and control. Only nowadays, these elites are much more slicker, use much more slicker propaganda, to corral the people into going along with whatever is happening, even if it means the destruction of their country, of their republic, look at Rome! We are seeing a modern day empire..crumble. This is what we are seeing, and all these plans for expansion and for stimulus packages and for saving their dying system of control will be futile. Humanity will win!

    Ted Says:

    February 6th, 2009 at 9:10 pm
    You want to know how to stop New World Order??? You must attack the MONEY! Today, as we experience an engineered global financial collapse, you have the unique opportunity to make your voice heard. British ‘Empire’ or the banks of London have always been in control. You can get educated and watch the fight – punch by punch at this site: http://www.larouchepac.com.

  387. brooklynjon says:

    Kurdish Jews? That’s a new one.

    bj

  388. brooklynjon says:

    Two,

    A couple of points from a comment of yours.

    One, the treatment you received at the Seder, if it was as you described it, was loutish and rude. I wish I had been a fly on the wall to see if the bad behavior was because of your identity (repugnant), or because of something inflammatory that was said or done. But having not been a fly, I’ll take your version as the truth. Loutish, no doubt. However, surely you do not compare this behavior to attempted murder, or actual murder. I’ve been treated rudely by all manner of people, and it has never occurred to me to write off a whole ethnic group or religious group based on that. On the other hand, someone trying to kill you might generate somewhat stronger emotions, particularly when it’s happened a few times, no?

    Two, I absolutely agree that innocent Palestinian civilians should not be killed or injured, and that it is terrible when they are. Period. However, it must be remembered that in a battle that is waged by people who fight in civilian attire, base their attacks from civilian structures, and frequently use civilians, either wittingly or unwittingly as shields, the fault for this must sometimes be shared, sometimes pinned on the combatants fighting on the civilians’ side, and sometimes be pinned on the not-quite-so-innocent civilians themselves. If I am blown up while sipping a latte in a cafe, that is one thing. If I am blown up by return fire at the rocket launcher that I allow to be stationed in my front yard, it is not exactly the same thing.

    So yes, innocent Palestinians should not be killed. Both sides, and the civilians themselves, should take steps to make sure of this.

    bj

  389. @ bj,

    “So yes, innocent Palestinians should not be killed. Both sides, and the civilians themselves, should take steps to make sure of this.”

    So it simple then, stop the killing. Israel should withdraw from the post 67 occupied land & maybe the Arabs will start to forget Sabra & shatila, the Hagana & Irgun gang massacres, and forget that these two groups are hailed as being hero’s in modern day Israel. The Israel that claims it wants peace and is a highly civilized entity?

    Until that happens and the Arabs are given the benefit of the doubt just like you gave towsret, then guess what, there will be no peace :)

    Have a nice (occupation) day :)

  390. DWDS @ 384 & 385:

    Iraqi sources… Would that be this fellow?

    http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/

    :D

    DWDS @ 386:

    Yup, that’s a group of straight-sighted, well-informed, even-tempered individuals you’re quoting there – I’m sure they represent a view shared by the broad majority of the world…

    NOT! :D

  391. DWDS @ 389:

    “So it simple then, stop the killing.”

    Indeed, stop the killing. That way, Israel won’t have to make retaliatory strikes and maintain a bufferzone to protect it’s citizens…

    “and the Arabs are given the benefit of the doubt”

    Unfortunately, this has resulted in the loss of human lives every time it has been tried in the past – the (likely) cost is not worth the (unlikely) outcome, so the only answer will be to stop the violence first, and gain concessions after… The way it usually works when you’re facing a much stronger adversary!

  392. So it simple then, stop the killing. Israel should withdraw from the post 67 occupied land & maybe the Arabs…

    lol. You just changed the old “land for peace” initiative into “land for nothing”. I wonder how well that’ll go over, considering how badly the land-for-peace version flopped? If the fair deal failed then why not demand your enemy makes massive unilateral concessions, right? I’m gonna try that next time I want to buy a PC!

    “Dude, $1500 is way too much for that computer! How about you give it to me for free?”

    I’ll just tell em Sand Ape sent me.

  393. brooklynjon says:

    DWDS,

    So many ways to reply to you…. but I’ll limit myself.

    Watch out for your own double standards, buddy:

    Sabra and Shatilla massacres…..which were committed by Lebanese militants.

    The Hagana and Irgun “massacres” were not committed in a vacuum, of course. There was violence against Jews before the 1967 war, before the State of Israel was declared, before the Irgun existed. Surely someone opposed to double standards would not imply that the Haganah and the Irgun were the only source of violence.

    And, as someone who abhors double standards, I assume you’ll be calling for restitution of the Jews of the Arab countries who were harassed, evicted and dispossessed of their property in the last 60 years solely in the interest of ethnic cleansing. Right?

    bj

  394. Adam,

    “That way, Israel won’t have to make retaliatory strikes and maintain a bufferzone to protect it’s citizens…”

    it’s citizens are on occupied land Einstein,, ppppppfft!!!

    bi,

    I agree with you, especially the part about restitution, when the good Jewish citizens of Arab nations became traitors and their possessed, they should indeed be given restitution, but by Israel. And not from Palestinian land BTW. If only life were that simple..

  395. “it’s citizens are on occupied land Einstein”

    Only a fraction of them, Einstein…

    But hey, if the palestinians could manage to just attack the illegal settlers, things wouldn’t be so bad. Unfortunately, they obviously see and have always seen it fit to attack everyone BUT the illegal settlers, including foreigners in other countries.

  396. @ “Only a fraction of them, Einstein”

    Israel supports these illegal settlements, not doing a whole lot for their credibility. Therefore forfeiting there right and sabotaging their ruthless immoral cause beyond what the Palestinians appear to be doing.

    Under all statute of International law, the illegal settlements are illegal. The world community doesn’t negotiate with criminals. Just pours billions of $’s of International aid on them, LOL.

    Won’t last much longer buddy, no matter what you think.

  397. “Israel supports these illegal settlements”

    Muslim nations around the world support the palestinian armed attacks against Israel… So, does that make it 2 billion+ terrorists?

    “Therefore forfeiting there right and sabotaging their ruthless immoral cause beyond what the Palestinians appear to be doing.”

    I cannot fathom what this sentence is meant to say – please rephrase.

    “Under all statute of International law, the illegal settlements are illegal. ”

    Oh, I agree… How does this equate the righteousness in detonating bombs in busses filled with arbitrary people, or blowing up skyscrapers on the opposite side of the globe? Have you no sense of proportion?!? If your neighbour steals your newspaper, do you go on an AK-47 killing spree in your apartment building?

    “Just pours billions of $’s of International aid on them, LOL.”

    Who? Gaza?

    “Won’t last much longer buddy, no matter what you think.”

    I wish that was so (though not the way you envision it) but, unfortunately, I think this conflict will outlive both you and me…

  398. “And, as someone who abhors double standards”

    That’s rich, double standards is what Sandy is all about, what he preaches isn’t what he practices. He uses the name, DownWithDoubleStandards, to obfuscate what he’s really preaching. It seems obvious even to the most casual of observers that his words obnubilate his intentions.

    Sandy is full of deceitfulness, pretense, affectation, bigotry, cant, casuistry, deceit, deception, dishonesty, dissembling, dissimulation, duplicity, false profession, falsity, fraud, glibness, imposture, insincerity, irreverence, lies, lip service, mockery, pharisaicalness, pharisaism, phoniness, pietism, quackery, sanctimoniousness, sanctimony, speciousness, unctuousness.

    Just sayin.

  399. brooklynjon says:

    DWDS,

    “I agree with you, especially the part about restitution, when the good Jewish citizens of Arab nations became traitors and their possessed, they should indeed be given restitution, but by Israel. And not from Palestinian land BTW. If only life were that simple..”

    Whoa! Do you mean to say that Israel is created and overnight each and every Jew in an Arab country becomes a treasonous co-conspirator plotting the overthrow of their host country, and therefore meriting expulsion? Does that mean that post-9/11, every Egyptian and Saudi national living in the United States could be dispossessed of their property and tossed out on their silky derriere and that would be peachy-keen by you?

    And the Arab citizens of Israel, by virtue of the fact that they kinda look like they might be disloyal can be tossed, but we’ll keep their stuff, thank you very much. Is this actually what you’re saying?

    bj

  400. bj @ 403:

    Of course it is… After all, he’s against double standards, right? :D

  401. LOL!!!